I think it's okay to make him like a god, but they go over board when they go all out with the persecution like in SR or make Jor-El's motivation to save his son from a dying planet more then it actually should be.

I'm hoping the speech used from All Star was just for the teaser and is not a part of the film.

Yep. The whole "You will lead the people of Earth into the light, Kal-El" makes no sense coming from Jor-El. He knows nothing about his son's personality; Kal-El could just as easily grow up to be a tyrant as Earth's savior. His motivation for sending his son to Earth should be to save him, and that's all, just like the story of Moses.

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Originally Posted by Krumm

But Moses is part of the Messiah archetype as is Jesus. I see Superman falling in that category and able to have traits of both regardless of the religion of his creators. To me, it simply gives him a more broader fan base.

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Originally Posted by Krumm

Since Moses and Jesus overlap so much, what kind of Moses elements would you like to see? The parting of a Red Sea allegory? The New Krypton run in the comics has a some Moses elements in it -- the way he is trying to lead his people to peace. That element could possibly be present in MOS. Maybe he is trying to foster a relationship between Zod and Faora with humans.

The only aspect of Moses's life that I want to be a direct influence on Superman is his being sent away by a parent at birth. Everything else about Superman's story should be as unique as possible with the occasional inevitable overlap. For example, Superman will save Earth from Zod just like Moses saved the Hebrews from Pharaoh, but all heroes have to save someone eventually so that link was always going to be there.

__________________The poster formerly known as RachelDawes

Cynicism is not maturity, do not mistake the one for the other. If you truly cannot accept a story where someone does the right thing because itís the right thing to do, that says far more about who you are than these characters. - Greg Rucka

Yep. The whole "You will lead the people of Earth into the light, Kal-El" makes no sense coming from Jor-El. He knows nothing about his son's personality; Kal-El could just as easily grow up to be a tyrant as Earth's savior. His motivation for sending his son to Earth should be to save him, and that's all, just like the story of Moses.

We don't necessarily know if he tells him that before he sends him off.

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Originally Posted by RachelDawes

The only aspect of Moses's life that I want to be a direct influence on Superman is his being sent away by a parent at birth. Everything else about Superman's story should be as unique as possible with the occasional inevitable overlap. For example, Superman will save Earth from Zod just like Moses saved the Hebrews from Pharaoh, but all heroes have to save someone eventually so that link was always going to be there.

Fair enough. Seeing as this is an origin film, we should be getting the send off scene much like S:TM had.

Do you want to see the Moses allegory in this film or do you want to see it throughout the series? Sequels won't have the luxury of having Kal-El being sent away again.

We don't necessarily know if he tells him that before he sends him off.

It's not a speech that makes sense regardless of when it's given. He dies shorty after Kal-El is sent away. There's no reason for him to assume that his son is going to turn into a shining example of goodness. Compare his speech to Jonathan's and the latter'sis so much more plausible.

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Fair enough. Seeing as this is an origin film, we should be getting the send off scene much like S:TM had.

Do you want to see the Moses allegory in this film or do you want to see it throughout the series? Sequels won't have the luxury of having Kal-El being sent away again.

Nope, I'd rather not see any more religious allegory than is necessary. No Moses, Jesus, Buddha, or any other such references if it can be avoided. Let Superman be himself.

__________________The poster formerly known as RachelDawes

Cynicism is not maturity, do not mistake the one for the other. If you truly cannot accept a story where someone does the right thing because itís the right thing to do, that says far more about who you are than these characters. - Greg Rucka

Nope, I'd rather not see any more religious allegory than is necessary. No Moses, Jesus, Buddha, or any other such references if it can be avoided. Let Superman be himself.

Agreed. What I'd like to see presented more is Jonathon and Martha's human influence. For me whenever the Krytonian super religious vibes begin the human influence on Kal/Clark is diminished and he becomes less grounded to the people he is actually protecting.

It's not a speech that makes sense regardless of when it's given. He dies shorty after Kal-El is sent away. There's no reason for him to assume that his son is going to turn into a shining example of goodness. Compare his speech to Jonathan's and the latter'sis so much more plausible.

I was just saying that he may talk to Jor-El at some point when he is older like in S:TM. He may be told while he is forming his identity.

However, I was never able to figure out if the Jor-El and Lara holograms in the Donner-verse were sentient or just recordings -- Kryptonian technology could explain the former.

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Originally Posted by RachelDawes

Nope, I'd rather not see any more religious allegory than is necessary. No Moses, Jesus, Buddha, or any other such references if it can be avoided. Let Superman be himself.

Yep. The whole "You will lead the people of Earth into the light, Kal-El" makes no sense coming from Jor-El. He knows nothing about his son's personality; Kal-El could just as easily grow up to be a tyrant as Earth's savior.

Maybe. But a responsible and loving father (on his "deathbed," essentially) would convey the highest aspirations he had for his son - and kinda skip over the more negative possibilities.

As for the All-Star dialogue, there's nothing preachy about it. Quite simply, it's the type of dialogue Jor-El has been known for when he's discussing Clark's 'destiny'. While on the subject, I doubt that Jor-El will be reciting those lines to baby Kal-El as Krypton is falling apart. It's more likely that Jor-El's recorded hologram will be inspiring young Clark (after discovering the ship and/or Fortress) of what his purpose is living amongst the humans.

Superman's image must be one of a savior and/or beacon of hope. Similar to Batman, Superman is a symbol to all mankind, and will be the ambassador to all 'alien' life on Earth, after all.

Superman's image must be one of a savior and/or beacon of hope. Similar to Batman, Superman is a symbol to all mankind, and will be the ambassador to all 'alien' life on Earth, after all.

That's a good point. Yes, we definitely need to FEEL Superman is what Jor-El is saying he is but it always helps to have flowery dialogue to enhance it. I mean, how many times in the TDK Trilogy did we hear the idea that Batman is a symbol, he strikes fear, blah, blah, blah? It helps sell the point.

Again, let's talk more about Jonathon and Martha's influence. Why is Jor-El the only influence allowed for Kal/Clark? Why is this this case when the man/Superman was raised on earth from a baby? Why must the Kryptonian influence be the only influence that is recognized?

Again, I do not like the Christ parallels. Yes, I get that they are there and a part of the mythos, but they shouldn't be an enormous part of it. IMO, Superman needs to be grounded to the earth...not Krypton.

__________________ Dreams save us. Dreams lift us up and transform us. And on my soul I swear: until my dream where dignity, honor, and justice becomes the reality we all share I'll never stop fighting. Ever - Superman

Again, let's talk more about Jonathon and Martha's influence. Why is Jor-El the only influence allowed for Kal/Clark? Why is this this case when the man/Superman was raised on earth from a baby? Why must the Kryptonian influence be the only influence that is recognized?

Again, I do not like the Christ parallels. Yes, I get that they are there and a part of the mythos, but they shouldn't be an enormous part of it. IMO, Superman needs to be grounded to the earth...not Krypton.

i think jor el's message comes across more powerful and the teaser back up this claim

Again, let's talk more about Jonathon and Martha's influence. Why is Jor-El the only influence allowed for Kal/Clark? Why is this this case when the man/Superman was raised on earth from a baby? Why must the Kryptonian influence be the only influence that is recognized?

Itís not. Typically, the Kent influence is substantial too. Indeed, the aspirations of both sets of parents are largely in sync. With his extraordinary abilities, Kal-El/Clark is expected to do good works and be a noble symbol.

The All-Star derived speech from Jor-El is epic and fantastic, I don't get how you could dislike it. Maybe it's because I'm an atheist and don't have a personal relationship to the biblical references and parallels, and just love them cause they are great themes and story-elements to use.

It's a huge part of my love for Superman. Different strokes I guess, but it feels like such a big part of Superman that it's hard to imagine someone being a super Superman-fan and totally hating those things.

I have never liked the idea that Jor-El sends his son to earth to be a savior. It makes it sound like he is selflessly giving his son away for some greater good which is not the case. His planet is dying and Jor-El's dying wish is that he wants his only son to survive and live on. That is why I like Birthright so much.

The All-Star derived speech from Jor-El is epic and fantastic, I don't get how you could dislike it. Maybe it's because I'm an atheist and don't have a personal relationship to the biblical references and parallels, and just love them cause they are great themes and story-elements to use.

It's a huge part of my love for Superman. Different strokes I guess, but it feels like such a big part of Superman that it's hard to imagine someone being a super Superman-fan and totally hating those things.