I want to make it clear that this forum is open to a very wide range of views. At the moment, the posts are overwhelmingly of a certain tendency, but please do not be discouraged. We seek Truth, not to have a bunch of echoes. So please read the Rules of the Road thread and come to play.

That was the shortest open letter anyone has ever writen to us. thanks bro! I usualy have to wade through lines about "If there are any good muslims, then why don't I see them whenh I'm watching Fox News, huh, hu, can you answer that you Muslim !

Google is hard to use when there is so much crap everywhere on it, but the 12er's seem to be a branch of Islam called Imami (12er) Shia. So if someone says, "the 12er Shia" they seem to be refering to the Imami.

Religious succession is basic to Shia/Sunni differences, and also divides the Shia. The two major Shia communities in Afghanistan are the Ithna Ashariya or Twelvers, also called Imami, and the Ismaili, sometimes called the Seveners. The Imami Shia recognize twelve successive Imams, beginning with Ali and ending in AD 874 with the disappearance of the twelfth who will return as a messianic figure at the end of the world.

The most numerous Imami Shia groups in Afghanistan are the Imami Hazara living in the Hazarajat of central Afghanistan, and the Imami Farsiwan of Herat Province. Mixtures occur in certain areas such as Bamiyan Province where Sunni, Imami and Ismaili may be found. Imami Shia are also found in urban centers such as Kabul, Kandahar, Ghazni, and Mazar-i-Sharif where numbers of Qizilbash and Hazara reside. Urban Shia are successful small business entrepreneurs; many gained from the development of education that began in the 1950s.

The political involvement of Shia communities grew dramatically during the politicized era during and following the Soviet invasion. Politically aware Shia students formed the hard core of the Afghan Maoist movement of the 1960s and early 1970s After 1978, Shia mujahidin groups in the Hazarajat, although frequently at odds with one another, were active in the jihad and subsequently in the fighting for the control of Kabul.

During the political maneuvering leading up to the establishment of The Islamic State of Afghanistan in 1992, the Shia groups unsuccessfully negotiated for more equitable, consequential political and social roles. This heightened profile created a backlash among some Sunni groups, notably those associated with the Hezb-i Islami of Mawlawi Yunus Khalis and the Ittihad-i-Islam of Professor Abd al-Rabb al-Rasul Sayyaf. Violent sectarian confrontations took place, particularly in and around Kabul.

Hate this to be my first post here but just thought I would add that Iran's president Ahmadinejad believes that his actions will lead to the return of the 12th Imam. This is highlighted in this article from the Telegraph in the UK.

IIRC I posted somewhere on this forum (anyone?) a piece that 12er Assassin posted a piece on GetofftheX (I found his many posts while there quite educated in a tradition with which I was and am completely unfamiliar. I found them thoughtful too. Working from memory, a distinctive theological point is that Ahmadinejad seeks to create the conditions that will lead to the return of the 12th Iman, whereas Sistani of Iraq is of the "quietist school" i.e. lead a good Muslim life and the 12 Iman will re-appear when he wishes. This latter school of thought would seem to be more amenable to some sort of separation of Mosque and State.

President George Bush has claimed he was told by G-d to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.

The President made the assertion during his first meeting with Palestinian leaders in June 2003, according to a BBC series which will be broadcast this month.

The revelation comes after Mr Bush launched an impassioned attack yesterday in Washington on Islamic militants, likening their ideology to that of Communism, and accusing them of seeking to "enslave whole nations" and set up a radical Islamic empire "that spans from Spain to Indonesia". In the programmeElusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, which starts on Monday, the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: "I'm driven with a mission from G-d. G-d would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then G-d would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

And "now again", Mr Bush is quoted as telling the two, "I feel G-d's words coming to me: 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by G-d, I'm gonna do it."

The White House has denied that US President George W. Bush said God told him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, as a new BBC documentary is expected to reveal.

"That's absurd. He's never made such comments," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Thursday.

The documentary series set to be broadcast later this month in Britain claims Bush made the claim when he met Palestinian leader Mahmud Abbas and then-foreign minister Nabil Shaath in June 2003.

He also told them he had been ordered by God to create a Palestinian state, the ministers said.

Shaath, now the Palestinian information minister, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God'".

"'God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan'.

"'And I did. And then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq... ' And I did.

"'And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And by God I'm gonna do it'," said Shaath.

Abbas, who was also at the meeting in the Egyptian resort of Sharm al-Sheikh, recalled how the president told him: "'I have a moral and religious obligation'".

"'So I will get you a Palestinian state.'"

The three-part series, "Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs", charts the attempts to bring peace to the Middle East, from former US president Bill Clinton's talks in 1999-2000 to Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza strip.

Q Have you ever heard the President say that God told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and --

MR. McCLELLAN: No, and I've been in many meetings with him and never heard such a thing.

Q Are you aware of the -- there's a BBC broadcast tonight that's quoting the Palestinian Prime Minister and Foreign Minister as saying that they were in a meeting with the President in June of '03, and there are some very detailed quotes here, saying that the President said to them, "God told me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan,' and I did," and then "God told me, 'George go and end the tyranny in the Iraq'" and so forth and so on?

MR. McCLELLAN: No, that's absurd. He's never made such comments.

Q Were you in the meeting when that took place?

MR. McCLELLAN: I've been in meetings with him with President Abbas; I didn't travel on that trip, if you're talking about to Jordan. But I've been in many meetings with the President with world leaders where he's talked about this.

Q So you don't know about the June '03 meeting?

MR. McCLELLAN: No, I checked into that report and I stand by what I just said.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas has denied an account by another Palestinian official of a meeting with US President George Bush in which Bush is cited as saying he believed that God told him to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

A statement in Abbas's name released by his office said an excerpt from an interview with Palestinian Information Minister Nabil Shaath due to be broadcast by the BBC in which Shaath described a meeting with Bush in June 2003 gave a "completely false" account.

In the interview for the series, Israel and the Arabs, Shaath described the meeting, at which he said Abbas was present.

"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did. And then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq.' And I did,'" Shaath said.

"This report is not true," the Abbas statement said today. "I have never heard President Bush talking about religion as a reason behind the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. President Bush has never mentioned that in front of me on any occasion and specifically not during my visit in 2003."

Shaath could not be reached for comment.

The series, Israel and the Arabs: Elusive Peace, will be broadcast in Britain on October 10, 17 and 24, and in its entirety on the US Public Broadcasting Service on Monday.

Sorry, I was just posting the news article that contained them. The fact that they weren't big news here made me think they were most likely false. Not to mention it was awhile back that those comments were supposedly made, I had almost forgotten about them.

Also should add, I was simply posting the link as a reference to what Cranwings had said. Also it was picked up by US media. It made the front page of the San Francisco Chronicle. Granted it is one of, if not the, most liberal newspaper in the country, it still shows that someone in this country took it seriously.

Ivanwald, which sits at the end of Twenty-fourth Street North in Arlington, Virginia, is known only to its residents and to the members and friends of the organization that sponsors it, a group of believers who refer to themselves as “the Family.” The Family is, in its own words, an “invisible” association, though its membership has always consisted mostly of public men. Senators Don Nickles (R., Okla.), Charles Grassley (R., Iowa), Pete Domenici (R., N.Mex.), John Ensign (R., Nev.), James Inhofe (R., Okla.), Bill Nelson (D., Fla.), and Conrad Burns (R., Mont.) are referred to as “members,” as are Representatives Jim DeMint (R., S.C.), Frank Wolf (R., Va.), Joseph Pitts (R., Pa.), Zach Wamp (R., Tenn.), and Bart Stupak (D., Mich.). Regular prayer groups have met in the Pentagon and at the Department of Defense, and the Family has traditionally fostered strong ties with businessmen in the oil and aerospace industries. The Family maintains a closely guarded database of its associates, but it issues no cards, collects no official dues. Members are asked not to speak about the group or its activities.

The organization has operated under many guises, some active, some defunct: National Committee for Christian Leadership, International Christian Leadership, the National Leadership Council, Fellowship House, the Fellowship Foundation, the National Fellowship Council, the International Foundation. These groups are intended to draw attention away from the Family, and to prevent it from becoming, in the words of one of the Family's leaders, “a target for misunderstanding.” The Los Angeles Times reported in September that the Fellowship Foundation alone has an annual budget of $10 million, but that represents only a fraction of the Family's finances. Each of the Family's organizations raises funds independently. Ivanwald, for example, is financed at least in part by an entity called the Wilberforce Foundation. Other projects are financed by individual “friends”: wealthy businessmen, foreign governments, church congregations, or mainstream foundations that may be unaware of the scope of the Family's activities. At Ivanwald, when I asked to what organization a donation check might be made, I was told there was none; money was raised on a “man-to-man” basis. Major Family donors named by the Times include Michael Timmis, a Detroit lawyer and Republican fund-raiser; Paul Temple, a private investor from Maryland; and Jerome A. Lewis, former CEO of the Petro-Lewis Corporation. The Family's only publicized gathering is the National Prayer Breakfast, which it established in 1953 and which, with congressional sponsorship, it continues to organize every February in Washington, D.C. Each year 3,000 dignitaries, representing scores of nations, pay $425 each to attend. Steadfastly ecumenical, too bland most years to merit much press, the breakfast is regarded by the Family as merely a tool in a larger purpose: to recruit the powerful attendees into smaller, more frequent prayer meetings, where they can “meet Jesus man to man.”

I'll add that I THINK that it is a logical to believe the people on the above list believe supporting Israel is important for religious reasons due to the huge amount of time I've spent involved with fundamental Christians.

I'll also add that I can't prove my original statement with journalism right now.

I also THINK that the Christians in this country are as dangerous as Islamic people everyone is up in arms about. I think that we are prone to violence against them and will seek out logic to support our war against them because of the Christians in this country. I think that we are happy to find logical reasons to fight wars with Israel's enemies because of our dominant religion.

I think that a wave of thought that supports violence can sweep through our country like a brush fire, with or without provocation, and that while we aren't as vocal as they are because we have a fancy way of talking, our high position and our weapons means it takes less to do more.

Poor Muslims scream and ache for violence and the west suffers some train bombings and 9/11. America sneezes and destroys Iraq. We have more power so I believe we have a higher calling to compassion and logic but our leaders were chomping at the bit to get into Iraq. We will fight in more places before long, all of which are a threat to Israel and I think we have our religious people to thank for getting the ball rolling.

Iraq, Iran, Muslims in general may have made some mistakes with us, but I THINK that if you could take away everything evil they ever did to US, we would be hovering over them, just waiting for an excuse.

I'll add that I THINK that it is a logical to believe the people on the above list believe supporting Israel is important for religious reasons due to the huge amount of time I've spent involved with fundamental Christians.

I'll also add that I can't prove my original statement with journalism right now.

I also THINK that the Christians in this country are as dangerous as Islamic people everyone is up in arms about. I think that we are prone to violence against them and will seek out logic to support our war against them because of the Christians in this country. I think that we are happy to find logical reasons to fight wars with Israel's enemies because of our dominant religion.

I think that a wave of thought that supports violence can sweep through our country like a brush fire, with or without provocation, and that while we aren't as vocal as they are because we have a fancy way of talking, our high position and our weapons means it takes less to do more.

Poor Muslims scream and ache for violence and the west suffers some train bombings and 9/11. America sneezes and destroys Iraq. We have more power so I believe we have a higher calling to compassion and logic but our leaders were chomping at the bit to get into Iraq. We will fight in more places before long, all of which are a threat to Israel and I think we have our religious people to thank for getting the ball rolling.

Iraq, Iran, Muslims in general may have made some mistakes with us, but I THINK that if you could take away everything evil they ever did to US, we would be hovering over them, just waiting for an excuse.

The battles between Islam and the west are not a new thing. More specifically the US has been battling Islam since the earliest days of our country. We fought 2 wars against the Barbary Coast Pirates in the early 1800s.

The Barbary Coast demanded a tribute be paid to them in exchange for allowing the non-muslim ships into their harbors. This would be the practice of dhimmi whereas non-muslims pay (jizya) to muslims for the right to live. (see Sura 9:29)

Our struggle with Islam has been an over 200 year long struggle for our freedom, not just for religion.

I'll add that I THINK that it is a logical to believe the people on the above list believe supporting Israel is important for religious reasons due to the huge amount of time I've spent involved with fundamental Christians.

****There is a big difference between supporting Israel because of Christian beliefs and supporting Israel because "that by supporting Israel they are helping to bring about the second coming of Christ.".****

I'll also add that I can't prove my original statement with journalism right now.

I also THINK that the Christians in this country are as dangerous as Islamic people everyone is up in arms about. I think that we are prone to violence against them and will seek out logic to support our war against them because of the Christians in this country. I think that we are happy to find logical reasons to fight wars with Israel's enemies because of our dominant religion.

****You can THINK the sky is green and purple if you wish. In fact Israel has been handcuffed in it's fight for survival due to the USA's larger geopolitical agenda.****

I think that a wave of thought that supports violence can sweep through our country like a brush fire, with or without provocation, and that while we aren't as vocal as they are because we have a fancy way of talking, our high position and our weapons means it takes less to do more.

Poor Muslims scream and ache for violence and the west suffers some train bombings and 9/11. America sneezes and destroys Iraq. We have more power so I believe we have a higher calling to compassion and logic but our leaders were chomping at the bit to get into Iraq. We will fight in more places before long, all of which are a threat to Israel and I think we have our religious people to thank for getting the ball rolling.

Iraq, Iran, Muslims in general may have made some mistakes with us, but I THINK that if you could take away everything evil they ever did to US, we would be hovering over them, just waiting for an excuse.

****There is such a profound void in your grasp of the issues we are discussing here, it's difficult knowing where to begin. In Iraq and in Afghanistan, we simultaneously fought a war and performed humanitarian assistance operations. The ground troops are placed at greater jeopardy because of very restrictive rules of engagement. It would be easier to use Saddam's methods of quelling insurection, cutting off water, electricity and shelling the village/town/city indisciminately from a distance. We could have installed a friendly (to us) totalitarian dictator that could brutally impose control over Iraq. Instead, we've spent blood and treasure trying to create democratic institutions with all the difficulties that freedom entails. We build schools, give medical treatment and the first few shaky stept towards freedom to a people that have only known a nightmare dictatorship for decades. It's not easy and may well fail, no matter how hard we try, but we are doing the right thing and for the right reasons and Israel has nothing to do with it.****

****This must have happened because of the US hovering over them, just waiting for an excuse....****

Buddhist killed, burned in Thai Muslim southPublished: 04.16.07, 07:10 / Israel NewsAn elderly Buddhist man was shot dead and his body set on fire in Thailand's restive south of Narathiwat, police said on Monday.

Thongmee Mainman, 70, was attacked as he drove his motorbike home from a market in Narathiwat, one of three Muslim-majority southern provinces beset by a three-year separatist insurgency in which more than 2,000 people have been killed, they said. (Reuters)

The battles between Islam and the west are not a new thing. More specifically the US has been battling Islam since the earliest days of our country. We fought 2 wars against the Barbary Coast Pirates in the early 1800s.

The Barbary Coast demanded a tribute be paid to them in exchange for allowing the non-muslim ships into their harbors. This would be the practice of dhimmi whereas non-muslims pay (jizya) to muslims for the right to live. (see Sura 9:29)

Our struggle with Islam has been an over 200 year long struggle for our freedom, not just for religion.

Sort-of.

The Barbary Coast "pirates" were the Ottoman Turkish-flagged navy and they were controlling the sea lanes in the Med. for a while. The Europeans and Romans before that had been doing the same thing back and forth for centuries. It was just a way of competing with the other side, though it got pretty nasty.

They were called the "Barbary Coast Pirates" because the main naval power came from N. Africa (Berber territory), not from Turkey itself. Not a big difference - the whole region was one big nation during this time.

Trust me on this. I married a Berber and my father-in-law used to build ships in Algiers. Real modern-day Algerines.

Very interesting foreign policy question back in Jefferson's time. Is the USA going to keep to its own area or expand into Europe? Will our navy be a brown-water or blue-water navy? If I remember correctly, the operations in N. Africa (where the Marines really cut their teeth, too!) was the first blue-water naval operation that the US ever did and I _think_ that the US Marine's saber handle was modeled after the Turks' specifically to symbolize victory over them, then a great world power. See this sword: http://www.allamericangifts.com/images/productpictures/ALL%20AMERICAN%20GIFTS%20PRODUCT%20LINE%20021.jpg

SECURITY surrounding the Dalai Lama has been tightened after reports of an attempt by the al-Qa'ida-linked terrorist organisation Lashkar-e-Toiba to assassinate the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader.A three-tier security ring has been thrown around the 72-year-old Buddhist head, who lives at Dharamsala, in the Himalayan foothills, Indian police spokesman Prem Lal said.All those approaching the exiled Tibetan chief will be closely watched by highly trained Tibetan security guards as well as heavily armed deployments of Indian police.

Visitors are being body-searched before being allowed to approach him.

The Dalai Lama is scheduled to make a widely anticipated 11-day visit to cities and regional centres across Australia in early June, making both free and ticketed appearances at public lectures, blessings and teaching sessions. Before that, he will visit the US.

Superintendent Lal said police had been alerted by central intelligence agencies to the reported plot by Lashkar-e-Toiba to kill the Dalai Lama "on the directions of a foreign organisation", which he declined to name, but is assumed to be al-Qa'ida.

In a recent document, Osama bin Laden denounced "pagan Buddhism" as part of his general attack on anything not Islamic.

The assassination threat picked up by Indian authorities is thought to be based on bin Laden's denunciation and the extremist jihadi movement's hatred for anything and anyone that is not Muslim.

Lashkar-e-Toiba is believed to be al-Qa'ida's agent in South Asia and has been involved in virtually every major terrorist attack in India.

Indian authorities recently heightened the security surrounding India's political leader, Sonia Gandhi, and members of her high-profile family following intelligence reports that they were on the extremist movement's hit list. Mrs Gandhi now travels the country in armed motorcades similar to those that carry the country's head of state, President Abdul Kalam.

The heavy security cordon thrown around the Dalai Lama at the Dharamsala exile where he has lived since fleeing Tibet is in sharp contrast to the normally relaxed atmosphere that pervades the town and is testimony of the extent to which Islamic terrorism is affecting even remote parts of the world.

As police disclosed the threat to the Dalai Lama, Indian officials drafted a strong declaration on terrorism in South Asia for leaders attending the South Asian Association for Regional Co-operation summit beginning in New Delhi today.

Indian foreign secretary Shivshankar Menon said the draft declaration would discuss "not only about implementing what we have already agreed to, but to see what further action we, in thesub-region, can take against terrorism".

There are suggestions that leaders at the eight-nation summit will consider extending throughout Asia the joint mechanism to deal with terrorism recently established between India and Pakistan.

The mechanism involves close co-operation on all matters relating to terrorism and a regular exchange of intelligence.

Sri Lanka is particularly keen to see an integrated strategy that would assist it in its war against the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, or Tamil Tigers. Colombo wants SAARC members to work with it to defeat the Tigers.

Similarly, India wants all eight SAARC nations to help it defeat the Lashkar-e-Toiba group and to pursue a campaign against the terrorist movement. But many Pakistanis see LeT fighters as heroes.

Let me state that I am a dedicated Christian, so that's where I'm coming from.

Now, as for my Muslim friends, I sometimes find it hard to compete with there doctrine. They get a truck-load of virgins, and I think about 50,000 servants when they go to heaven.

I've researched Christianity, and there will be no sex in heaven. Sometimes it makes me wonder if that is why so many of my Muslim friends are so eager to strap explosives on their body.

Where do I sign up?

Just kidding my friends, so please do not be offended.

I sold my soul to Jesus, and I won't look back... But those virgins are very tempting...

I too have been given a new soul. I hope these allegations of afterdeath bribery are false. Here's my take on that:If a supernatural entity commands you to commit homicide and suicide with the reward of carnal pleasures, that's the devil making that offer.

PS nobody wants to screw virgins except high school boys. 90% of guys I know don't want to wait for a girl to 'get up to spedd' on what's going on under the sheets.