"Max,I'm not sure where you are getting your data. I have over 4000 miles on the AT and PCt with a little eight oz. pack and with the exception of the day I had seven days of food in it leaving Kennedy Meadows, I have never even noticed my pack is on. You can easily use a frameless pack if you have low weight AND the experience to know how to use it. Experience also goes a long way to help you trim not only base weight but also food and water weight as well. You are trying to extrapolate your experience on others and its just not valid."

First off, I'm not giving out "Data." You just said "Except for when I have 7 days worth of food" and that's the only time I'm talking about- maximum thru-hike weight. So your exception is my rule.

Secondly, "I have never even noticed my pack is on" is the farthest thing from data ever. It's completely subjective. You could be significantly stronger than some, or more used to your pack, and a host of other things.

Again, if you're keeping it under 20lbs, you probably don't need a suspension system. You might need it and not know it, it's worth assessing for yourself. If you're under 20lbs with maximum food and water for a thru-hike (7 days food, 2-3 days water), this conversation barely applies to you, if at all. I know long-time thru hikers who have traversed most of the trail systems in the United States. My good friend David Eve has an outdoors center in NH named after him because of his history of outdoor education, and he is the advisor for my campus's club. I was there, on Mt. moosilauke, when he was walking three days after knee surgery because of backpacking damage over years and years, and he is the first to repetitively tell us not to play around with your body's tolerance for distance. Before you jump down my throats, I'm sure the majority of people here know this out of experience. If you walk on a trail with an ill-fitting, poorly supported pack and you don't use trekking poles, you'll feel it eventually.

Again. (haha...)

I am not claiming to be correct, and I'm not trying to prove a point! I'm just trying to understand why some people choose suspension and others don't while I figure out what works best for me.

You guys have a really hard time understanding that I don't have an agenda...

Also, I don't think I even need mention it, but I'm a writer with a boring weekend job. I talk a lot when I have time to kill on here. I don't want anyone to think I'm really annoyed with them ;) it's all just debate, haha.

"Again, if you're keeping it under 20lbs, you probably don't need a suspension system. You might need it and not know it, it's worth assessing for yourself. If you're under 20lbs with maximum food and water for a thru-hike (7 days food, 2-3 days water)"

First off, there are few if any thru hikers that can can carry seven days worth of food and have their pack under 20 lbs. with Sierra gear mine was close to 30 which was too heavy for my pack. But by the next day it was 2.5 lbs lighter and the following day another 2.5 lbs lighter. And 2-3 days of water???? Where did this come from, on a thru hiker few if anyone carries that much water. and if they do they are either inexperienced or going extremely slow. I second Eric suggestion of spending a few more hours on the trail instead of the computer.

And max, I can assure you, I don't need a suspension system, my setup works just fine. Enjoy your evening at work.

2-3 days worth of water is going to be a minimum of 20-30 lbs in the summer, much more if you plan on being well hydrated and cooking food.Is there really a place in the PCT or AT where you have to carry that much?

The lighter your pack, the more miles per day you can hike.(if you are in good shape)The more miles per day, the less food you have to carry.Duh.

Thru hikers that carry very light packs, can often do 20-30 miles per day.At that pace, 2- 3 days food will often suffice.

A thruhiker on AT last yr did 68 miles in 24 hrs.Jenn Pharr Davis AVERAGED almost 50 miles per day on her AT the speed record, for 48 days, carrying only water and snacks, and sometimes people carried that for her. She did a 65 mile or so day too at the end.

It is all about the weight, really. If you dont understand this, you dont understand long distance hiking.

There is a huge difference between 15 and 20 lbs. HUGE difference. Anyone purporting that 2-3 lbs of pack wt doesnt matter,is saying it doesnt matter for THEM and their style of hiking. That doesnt mean it doesnt matter to others.

There was a section of the at during the Shenandoah National Park section where I went 17 miles without a drop of water. I got out early, carried 2 liters, and hoped for the best. My pack weight was low, and I made sure to keep it that way.

As far as the PCT goes, There are stretches without a water source* where if you didn't rely on any water caches that you would be carrying 2-3 days worth of water. Ill be thru hiking the PCT starting in may and am anxious about this, but something tells me you just take it as it comes. I'm still planning on hiking with a frameless pack

Many hikers have problems finding water on the desert sections of the PCT. Just because you didn't doesn't make my point irrelevant for the majority of hikers. Literally hundreds of people carry 2 days of water for a decent pace of 20 miles a day. The occasional person knocking out 50-milers doesn't invalidate the idea as a concept of backpacking.

Plus, mere luck could account for your experience.

But, if you want to be right, we can say that I'm wrong. I really don't have the time for people who latch on to three words in five pages of opinions and ideas just to say "I told you so!"

"A backpacker today doesn't have to cast off the shackles of heavy packs like they might have had to in 1990. There are a lot of supreme, rolls royce feeling packs at 4-5lbs. Gregory, Arcteryx, McHale, Osprey.... the list grows."You can get a "roll royce feeling" big load pack for 2-3 lbs. There's no good reason to go over 3.5 lbs for pack weights under 50 lbs. I'm all for having the right support and padding for the job at hand, but that's not the reason why these's packs are 4-6 lbs. 2 lbs saved is enough to add a bottle of red wine on every trip.

"My friends think I'm nuts for buying my third pack...65L Gregory Baltoro ~5lbs"In the friendliest way, I think you're nuts too. That cinderblock is spec'd at 5 lbs 10oz and most likely it's over spec (being a mainstream product). With a more judicious allotment of weight, you could have similarly capable "rolls royce" pack plus a sleeping bag and shelter for the same total weight. There's at least 7 zippers on that thing - extra weight, complexity and fail points.

"I suggest you all come out to Montana this summer and we can hit up Glacier, the Bob, and talk gear as much as we want."I'll be at the Bob in May for the Bob Open. Show up and we'll talk gear Friday night.

You started this thread with the discussion focusing on an average 7 day trip or a thru hike. You are now moving the goal posts to a specific section of the PCT where a large amount of water is required.

Does this mean you concede that outside of situations which carrying large amounts of water are required there is no reason to carry a 5lb pack?

Dan, mostly got it for weight balancing of camera gear (canting hipbelt and shoulder straps) and access to lenses and group gear. Depending on if it works the way I think it works, it could still be returned. My pack choice is really difficult to combine into the fundamentals of this thread, I wouldn't even want to try. I don't suggest it ;D

"15-25 mile stretches of desert are absolutely common in the Mojave Desert. You'd have to carry between 6 and 8 liters of water to make it through 25 miles of desert, which is at least 13.5 pounds. "

Really?? Since I carried only four liter total total capacity, I guess I just pretended? And news flash, even if your 15- 25miles is taken as fact, that is hardly 2-3 days for the average pct thru hiker. You know not what you are talking about!