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I don't know if we'll ever get to see the originals. As far as I know they were still in Richard Datin's possession when he passed away. He had tried to donate them to the Smithsonian, but they wanted too much paperwork proving they were legally his to donate. I figure they didn't want any trouble from Paramount (or CBS now).

If I had my guess, a wealthy collector has probably contacted his heirs and made an offer on them by now. Whether they'll turn up some time? We can only hope.

As Shaw pointed out, the bridge alcove diagram is of an earlier version of the ship. Do not place too much stock in it.

While it is admittedly simplified (which is totally fine with me if this is just a panel to show possible damage like the screens in ST II), it is blatantly obvious that the three vertical structures (i.e. saucer, dorsal, nacelle pylons) perfectly match three of the vertical structures in the Jefferies cross-section in TMOST.

Therefore it stands to reason that the exact same vertical structures in the (black & white) cross-section serve the same function, or am I imagining things?

MGagen wrote:

As for why there are no horizontal turbo paths evident on the cross section in TMOST? The answer is simple: none of them fall along the centerline of the ship.

A feasible rationalization, but, again, the top view of the bridge alcove schematic reveals the absence of horizontal ("turbo shaft") structures, while all the vertical ones and the diagonal lines to the nacelles are highlighted in a different color.

Also, from a practical point of view I'm confident that Matt Jefferies would have had a turbo shaft running from the top of the dorsal all the way down to the bottom of the engineering.

And why is allegedly reversed L-shaped "turbo shaft" in the dorsal (not to mention the strange dorsal feature it circumvents) going up to the exterior center structure at the stern of the saucer?!?

Considering that Jefferies himself felt the warp nacelles to be extremely dangerous there are probably lethal radiation levels that would also severely contaminate any turbo lift car going there.
If the fourth and bigger vertical structure (going all the way down to the bottom of the engineering hull) is a turbo shaft, apparently in close proximity to the yellow circle at the underside of the engineering hull, than the yellow circle is the cover hatch for the waste dump of such contaminated turbo lift cars?

To assume these vertical structures to be turbo shafts doesn't seem to make a lot of sense bearing the bridge schematic in mind and the actual turbo lift entry points and movement featured in the series. YMMV.

Bob

__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein

Again, I point out that the bridge graphic depicts the earlier, unused version of the ship. We know this because it was already visible in place in footage of the bridge filmed for The Cage. Shooting schedules and dates on the ship blueprints prove this was before ship was rescaled and the design finalized. This graphic was never replaced throughout the series. The ship as depicted in that graphic is 543' Length OA, 235' Width OA, and 140' Height OA as called out on the original blueprint. As the externals of the ship itself were not yet settled at this point, I doubt if MJ had given too much attention to the internals. It doesn't pay to put too much stock in this drawing.

The TMOST section view, however, is definitely of the final, series version of the ship. And whether all of the tube-like structures depicted are in fact turbo lifts, I cannot say. The one tube that is almost surely a turbo tube is the one leading down from the bridge. Why? Because it shares the same space in line with the turbolift that services the bridge. This points to turbo tubes as being the most likely explanation for these features in other areas.

I agree with your assessment that it is unlikely that the pylon tubes leading to the nacelles indicate a full sized turbolift. It does seem a reasonable assumption that the compartment at the top of the tube may be the only internal area of the nacelles with life support. And you wouldn't want to go there unless the engines were shut down...

A feasible rationalization, but, again, the top view of the bridge alcove schematic reveals the absence of horizontal ("turbo shaft") structures, while all the vertical ones and the diagonal lines to the nacelles are highlighted in a different color.

When did the turbolifts move horizontally in the pilot episodes? I don't believe that ability had been thought of in 1964 so why would they have added it to a graphic back then?

Robert Comsol wrote:

Also, from a practical point of view I'm confident that Matt Jefferies would have had a turbo shaft running from the top of the dorsal all the way down to the bottom of the engineering.

Why?

In 2009 I was asked to reverse engineer that graphic, and we aren't talking about a lot of decks being excluded. One way that TOS showed that the Enterprise wasn't just a flat set was the existence of ladders to get between decks. Maybe Jefferies thought that once you got to the upper level of the engineering hull, elevators wouldn't be needed.

As for the lifts going up the supports, they correspond with windows on the supports the same way that the lift path in the dorsal does.

Look, this might be a good time to read your own signature. If you wish to pursue the historical aspects of TOS, you can't impose your vision on those artists. And attempting to portray them in a way that is not accurate (or even logical) is working against historical truth.

In my deck plans project I wanted Engineering to be somewhere else. MGagen pointed out that Jefferies specifically said where it was and that ended that. The Enterprise is (for me) Jefferies' design, so I'll work with what Jefferies wanted.

As for the lifts going up the supports, they correspond with windows on the supports the same way that the lift path in the dorsal does.

So you are suggesting that the vertical row of lights on the TOS Enterprise's connecting dorsal are lights that not only illuminate the inside of the turbo shaft but the dorsal's exterior as well?

Shaw wrote:

Look, this might be a good time to read your own signature.

Rest assured I'm reading it every day, when I post.

Shaw wrote:

If you wish to pursue the historical aspects of TOS, you can't impose your vision on those artists. And attempting to portray them in a way that is not accurate (or even logical) is working against historical truth.

I'm really not aware where I'm possibly imposing "my" vision at the expense of the original artists, please elaborate.

On the contrary, as I just did here a short while ago, I'm looking at all the "facts" (that's the essence of actual truth-seeking) and present these accordingly (frankly, I noticed in some other BBS discussions how "facts" were systematically surpressed and ignored because these did not conform with some "treknological majority" assumptions).

Vertical structures are turbo shafts. This assumption is sound because the vertical structure in the saucer corresponds with the exterior turbo lift cylinder behind the bridge exterior (although we never saw an entry to this turbo shaft other than from the bridge).

Vertical structures are power lines. This assumption is sound because the color of the vertical structure in the saucer extends to the entire bridge space (obviously not a turbo lift depot) and the top and botom dome. Since both domes appear to be energized to radiate the light we see it stands to reason the energy comes from a power line (which could be parts of the vertical turbo shaft)

These are two possible interpretations and you can't say which one is right or wrong unless you seriously want to claim that you exclusively own the Rosetta Stone telling us how Matt Jefferies wanted these vertical structures to be interpreted.

I'm well aware that your deck plan project attempted to approximate the TOS Enterprise according to "What would Matt Jefferies have done" (quite commendable!) while my ongoing deck plan project here at the BBS attempts to approximate the TOS Enterprise according to "What would Matt Jefferies have done assuming he would have accepted the alterations by the directors and producers" (i.e. have the reproduction to be as compatible with the actual TOS screen footage as possible and accurate).

Maybe we can agree on that?

Bob

__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein

As for why there are no horizontal turbo paths evident on the cross section in TMOST? The answer is simple: none of them fall along the centerline of the ship. The bridge turbo tube, as is evident from the outside of the model, IS on the center line.

There was something I totally forgot to mention. In my draft for Main Deck 7 I embedded the actual Season One studio set blueprint according to which the engine room would be parallel to the center line of the saucer.

I'm confident that the reason for this was that Matt Jefferies realized the need for a horizontal turbo shaft to run along this "center line" as the most efficient and shortest way to travel to the engineering hull via the connecting dorsal. However this horizontal turbo shaft is not featured in the Jefferies cross-section on the previous thread page and in TMOST.

Bob

__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein

I hope this isn't too far off-topic, but horizontal turboshafts are a floor plan headache. They block you walking from Point A to a nearby Point B.

The only way I can see horizontal shafts not being in the way is if the shaft bobs up a deck, goes a short distance, then ducks down a deck, etc. And that's not practical for the turbocar ride.

Maybe you need "overpass" routes where the pedestrian climbs up a deck, walks over the top of a horizontal shaft, and then climbs down on the other side of the shaft. Franz Joseph has such paired staircases near the centers of the saucer decks, but the horizontal shafts overlay each other on Decks 5 thru 7. You'd have to climb up to Deck 4 or down to Deck 8 to go around the shaft. It's crazy. FJ has too many horizontal shafts by any reckoning.

I hope this isn't too far off-topic, but horizontal turboshafts are a floor plan headache. They block you walking from Point A to a nearby Point B.

They are indeed and think I spent a couple of weeks trying to figure out how to get around them. Since Main Deck 6 is the widest that's where I put the horizontal shafts but other than that it should be mostly vertical shafts to avoid the problem you are describing.

Bob

__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein

Shaw's idea for turbolift paths in the old girl are the most sensible and elegant as I've yet seen.

Thanks!

Yeah, the main idea works like roundabouts for dealing with traffic issues. Cary was the one that pointed out how important it was not to have a full loop on a single deck. I actually have a full set of rules of the road (for right of way on branches) and when to add/remove lifts from the network depending on time of day. It was also really important to me that you be able to get around without using the turbolifts if you wanted, and one can get from the bow to the stern and from deck 2 to deck 20 very efficiently without using a lift.

For those who haven't seen it, you can find my preliminary turbolift network here (deck by deck) and a sorta 3D representation here. There is another (deck by deck) version here

I actually did put together a turbolift, corridor, stairwell and ladder network arrangement, but don't have it in a form that is easily sharable because it was done after I stopped giving public progress of the project. I considered braking that off into it's own subproject because it might be useful to others by itself.

The Enterprise is (for me) Jefferies' design, so I'll work with what Jefferies wanted.

Then please forgive that I have to wonder why your turbo shaft proposal shows a horizontal shaft connecting the bridge "turbo shaft" to the connecting dorsal which doesn't show up in the Jefferies cross-section?

And if I'm not mistaken Matt Jefferies also designed the studio set which is essentially a 120° segment of a circular corridor with turbo lift access points at both ends. Your turbo shaft proposal would obviously work better with 90° corridor segments which is however not the kind of corridor he designed.

Bob

__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein

Then please forgive that I have to wonder why your turbo shaft proposal shows a horizontal shaft connecting the bridge "turbo shaft" to the connecting dorsal which doesn't show up in the Jefferies cross-section?

It would have if Jefferies had drawn the other side... they aren't on the center line and got cut off in his drawing.

If you have any additional questions they should be asked in that thread. I promise to give them all the attention and thought they deserve, and will respond to them in a timely manner. Similarly, when you produce anything interesting enough to discuss, I'll comment on it in your thread.