A Paladin that takes the same amount of dmg as any other tank is because of his shield absorb. If you look at logs paladins take more dmg but also absorb alot of it,(100k absorb every 5 seconds with normal vengeance). And paladins heal with really high hps the shield ist most of the healing done. Logs show dmg taken even if the dmg is absorbed it will show up as absorb from heal.

This is completely incorrect. If something strikes you for 100k and you absorb 60k you will get 60k healing and 40k damage taken.

. Call people on the forums assholes, thats fine , but you're the one who stubbornly refused to take onboard any advice whether it be tactic or class related. Anyway, enough about your inability to listen and penchance to lash out at anyone who disagrees with you.

Actually I still refuse to take your advice and so did my raid. Guess what? We one shot every boss up to primordius now. Ignoring the advice of people on forums who don't know what their talking about because their bads and incompotents is a wining strategy, just as taking the prot paladin is. The evidence suggest you don't know what you're talking about (which I knew all along anyway) and that prot paladins are over powered.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

Actually I still refuse to take your advice and so did my raid. Guess what? We one shot every boss up to primordius now. Ignoring the advice of people on forums who don't know what their talking about because their bads and incompotents is a wining strategy, just as taking the prot paladin is. The evidence suggest you don't know what you're talking about (which I knew all along anyway) and that prot paladins are over powered.

What evidence? the only evidence you have that you pala plays his pala better than his monk.

What evidence? the only evidence you have that you pala plays his pala better than his monk.

He plays equally as well on both toons. Like people have been offering evidence, and I could give you my logs but what's the point? YOU WON'T ACCEPT THEY NEED A NERF I guess until daddy developer actually nerfs them and then you can say you knew it all along? or that it's to much? Either way the hammer is coming. Abuse it while you can folks.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

He plays equally as well on both toons. Like people have been offering evidence, and I could give you my logs but what's the point? YOU WON'T ACCEPT THEY NEED A NERF I guess until daddy developer actually nerfs them and then you can say you knew it all along? or that it's to much? Either way the hammer is coming. Abuse it while you can folks.

No the logs will actually show why he died. Why not post them.

And noone is denying palas are very strong this tier but eveything that makes them strong doenst count on primordious. Infach primordious is one of the fights were other tanks are better. Proven by logs and in theory, most of all Monks and Druids. Now you tell me that a monk with good ilvl for that gear got killed on the fight, and he switched to pala.

Post your logs prove us all wrong that your Monk plays a good monk. Until then your word is against 5-10 others, who has more data than one player in one guild that killed primordius. I could believe you if you say a druid was globaled with 514 ilvl completely in RPS gear. But look at some posts here even if pala are so op as you believe them to be(they are not, they are best tank this tier. There will always be a best tank each tier. Or they will have to make them copies of each other, and all do the same with differen names), then alot of people gave you evidence that monk is not that far behind / almost equal to a paladin.

You will never say a dps with ilvl 514 changing to another class with ilvl 493 and more dmg, that the 493 is op. IF he is equally skilled with both than why did he not die with the pala, if he only died once with his monk it could be very bad rng, missplay.
In no WAY, not in theory, not in terms of stats on gear or any other way will a 20ilvl lower equiped pala take less dmg on primordius than a monk played at the same skilllvl.

Paladins are getting a small nerf, and just by making the next tier less HoP abuseable, will fix current palaproblems, maybe take some scaling from selfheal or lights hammer. If we see a big nerf like you think it will happen, paladins will be worst tanking class.

prove us wrong with logs, that show how your monk died, and everyone will accept it.

The point is that we'll be able to show you how/where your raider failed on his monk tank vs his pala tank very easily.

That won't happen. You can go back and look through my thread history I've posted my logs before. Instead of arguing on topic, my guild and I just get picked apart by people on forums who would rather just insult us than accept any reasonable fact. The FACT is we killed the boss with the prot paladin in 14 item lvels less.

I'm bookmarking this thread because like I siad the hammer is coming down. Enjoy it while you can. Hell even in the remote chance they don't get beat up by the developers I'm okay with that to. We have a prot paladin now so what do I care? In fact you know what. They don't need a nerf. I've completely turned around on this topic. Blizzard if you are reading this DO NOT NERF THEM. My word is law. They will not be nerfed.

Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-03 at 10:03 PM.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

That won't happen. You can go back and look through my thread history I've posted my logs before. Instead of arguing on topic, my guild and I just get picked apart by people on forums who would rather just insult us than accept any reasonable fact. The FACT is we killed the boss with the prot paladin in 14 item lvels less.

I'm bookmarking this thread because like I siad the hammer is coming down. Enjoy it while you can. Hell even in the remote chance they don't get beat up by the developers I'm okay with that to. We have a prot paladin now so what do I care? In fact you know what. They don't need a nerf. I've completely turned around on this topic. Blizzard if you are reading this DO NOT NERF THEM. My word is law. They will not be nerfed.

Now the protpala only has 14 ilvl less.

This sound more like, yes he sucks but hes a friend and I cant say anything because he will not be my friend anymore still I know you right, cause who will be so dumb and believe it when a higher geared monk died and a totally undergeared(if that is even true cause the gap closes the more post you make) takes less dmg. And a Monk tank globaled, primordius only has no single attack doing that much dmg, the highest DPS I took on primordius, was 85K our pala was 90k both under 40k-50k the rest of the fight, we were 4-5 item lvl ahead of your monk, lets say he would have taken 110dps at most 60kdps normal. if he isnt a total failbob at monk like you say, it would have taken him atleast 5-7 seconds to be killed during that time if you use three healers maybe its not his fault, but still thats enough time to react, doenst matther if its a tankcd or a healer cooldown for the tank.

It may be fact that you killed the boss with a protpala.
We killed primordius on our first kill after 5 attempts with warrior druid, after that we changed to DK druid killed it three time first try, last time we did it with pala druid, and wiped two times, due to our paladin not paying attention, and our healer not using a cooldown.
Ok so now with your logic, Druids and DKs are the best tank atm, they should be nerfed and paladin should be buffed so even when he fails one time he will not die. And so monk are equal to other tanking classes make them unkillable, cause they suck so hard.

And btw, if you would know how the fight on primordius works, why monks are better tanks there, you would also know that the abilitys he gets durring the fight can be different eachpull, some combinations are really hard even on NH with two healers, some combinations are jsut a joke. But two healing it when AS buff plus high dotstacks with the random dot hiting the tank, almost every tank dies without a cooldown, if you have the unavoidable aoe your healers need to really heal alot.

So wait. You're the guy who couldn't manage to do Megaera NORMAL, on a HPal, because you had to MOVE....right? And now, on another joke of a boss (Primo NORMAL), you're claiming that a MONK tank, perhaps the strongest avoidance/mit tank in game, was "globalled" by a boss who can absolutely NEVER hit any tank spec class that hard? And that, until that player swapped to a "broken tank" by your admission, you were unable to down the boss because you couldn't keep the tank alive?

So wait. You're the guy who couldn't manage to do Megaera NORMAL, on a HPal, because you had to MOVE....right? And now, on another joke of a boss (Primo NORMAL), you're claiming that a MONK tank, perhaps the strongest avoidance/mit tank in game, was "globalled" by a boss who can absolutely NEVER hit any tank spec class that hard? And that, until that player swapped to a "broken tank" by your admission, you were unable to down the boss because you couldn't keep the tank alive?

I play a prot paladin as a main, currently with multiple dps front page rankings on heroic and normal mode kills, a tank being able to completely dwarf other dps is a beyond absurd thing to have transpired, tanking could be much more engaging without us having the absurd damage output, and by extension, healing output, they could make it so the rotation is purely based around active mitigation, the holy power system is flawed in the sense that, you will never do anything other than use 3 holy power, so everything before that can be completely ignored and never taken into account. The self healing achieved via SoI/Sacred shield is far to strong currently, every progression boss i require less than a 3rd of the external heals my tanking counterpart does, purely due to how strong both SS/SoI are with the haste build, the ability to keep yourself alive without any assisted healing once your cooldowns are up is something that should never have come into play in this game.

I think anyone who plays a Prot paladin and doesn't think it is broken is somewhat delusional, i love the class/spec, but i know that it is a joke, that being said, the class itself isn't the joke, it is purely the haste build, every overpowered aspect of it becomes greatly reduced the moment you reallocate to mastery, or god forbid stamina.

All the crap in this thread aside, no one has mentioned a key factor the the whole "tanks are OP" argument.

VENGEANCE IS A RAID UTILITY

Let's break that down. If tanks are doing more dps than the actual DPSers, why not bring 8 tanks and 2 healers? Everyone knows the answer, vengeance has diminshing returns when you try to spread it too thin. If you give 1 tank all the vengeance, he'll be a monster in Dmg and Healing, if you give it to 2, and they know how to properly moderate their vengeance (taunt every 20 seconds or so barring mechanics), they will do 80-100% of a DPS class' dps.

So what does that mean, Vengeance is a utility mechanic, that every boss in the game rewards a group. The only role that can take advantage of it are tanks. Are there certain tanks that utilize it better than others? Definately. Are there ways to indirectly increase the Vengeance yield by taking unnecessary damage? Definitely.

The more skilled the tank, the more Vengeance he/she can squeeze out of an encounter. In the end, its about how they use their Vengeance, believe it or not, most tanks, have the choice to going towards a healing utility or a DPS utility based on their Vengeance. (Yes, some classes have higher base healing/dps by default, more later). As a monk, i can take Chi Wave, for quite a lot of dmg on my target, and healing on myself. However, I can just as well turn and take Chi Burst, which is a VERY powerful short term raid CD (Like Revival) with sufficient Vengeance. Paladins can take SoT instead of SoI, severely crippling the amount of self and raid healing they do, for a major jump in the DPS they dish out, but all of it is fueled by Vengeance, a raid utility that the raid must choose how to use. If the healers are confident enough to keep the tank up with SoT up, then you have gotten for damage out where before it was healing, and vice versa.

It is all about effective use of the utility bosses give each raid. Now on to the fact that there are DPS disparities between tanks. This while it is quite a serious matter, it is exaggerated greatly among the general public. DPS itself comes in 4 main varieties; Sustained Single Target, Burst Single Target, Sustained AoE, Burst AoE. All four of these have their place in different encounters, and are needed regardless.

What we define and the "best" tank is on how much DPS/HPS they seem to be doing (Survivability is quite balanced across the board at this point). Let's start with the top ones.

Monks - Very High Sustained Single Target (default), Very High Sustained AoE (Default), Extremely High Burst AoE (Xuen for longer burst, RJW for shorter, Chi Burst etc), High Single Target Burst (Xuen), **Extremely High Cleave Sustained and Burst (KS and Xuen)**

All the tanks as they are now, are balanced around on thing or the other. Many people are simply looking at the numbers, its a very "Elemental Shaman" like dilemma; They are Moderate DPsers, but bring a VERY powerful Raid CD -> Ancestral Guidance)

Paladins and Monks are THE Vengeance tanks. They take Vengeance (A raid utility) and transform it into raid healing and DPS, this is what is easily shown in the logs.

DKs and Monks are the AoE gods. Both their sustained and burst AoE are scary, which has utility on many fights throughout the expansions.

Paladins and Warriors are Single Target Burst and Execute. Look at Wind Lord Mel'jarak Hc; Get his Recklessness and pop CDs, its an insane amoutn of effective damage on the boss itself. They also have a very powerful Execute phase (sub20) HoW and Execute.

Druids and Warriors and raid utility. Druids bring HotW which is amazing in quite a lot of fights, and Warriors bring banners, the first warrior in a raid is vastly more useful than any other following him. It's like Stormlash.

Druids and Warriors are GREAT offtanks. Druids are excellent offtanks, for the very reason they can keep up a high DPS, while not having vengeance. Warriors are great offtanks, simply for the fact that, if they are offtanking, they give the main tank a plethora of personal CDs for mechanics on short cooldowns.

As you can see, almost any tank setup will work, they are all good at something. A comp might be terrible for a specific encounter, and godly for another. While is is usually accepted that having at least 1 Vengeance tank is overall beneficial to the raid, you don't lose a whole lot by not having them.

Examples -

Horridon - Vengeance tank on Boss, for increased raid healing. DK excellent for gates (Double taunt), Warriors great for Gates (Unlimited taunts, high mobility, good control), Druids - meh.
Council - Monks and Warriors are good for their amazing cleave, DKs aren't far behind. Paladins are great for the first phase where Sul must be focused down. Druid, great offtank if a Vengeance tank in the group, otherwise - meh.
Tortos - Monks and DKs are gods if on bats. Monks, Druids are great on Tortos since Snapping Bite can be avoided. Paladins and good for both due to great Single Target or AoE threat control. Warriors - meh.
Megaera - Monks and DKs are kings here, because of their ability to reduce the burst that the breaths bring. Monks and Paladins bring great raid healing here. Druids are great if they briefly go into HotW for one of the final rampages. Warriors - meh.
Jikun - Monks and Paladins are great here due to how Talon Rake works. Druids and Warriors, great offtanks. DK - meh.
Durumu - Paladins and Monks very powerful here due to the nature of Hard Stare. Warriors also powerful in that their Sbarrier doesn't diminish with the debuff. Druids - meh. DKs - quite weak.
Primodius - Paladins, Warriors, and DKs are great because of their overall high HP, which doesn't spike them too much with high stacks of blood. Druids and Monks decent as Primordial Strike can be avoided (Avoidance Tanks).
Dark Animus - Monks and DKs are very good here, Monks are excellent on Animus, and DKs are excellent on the Massives. Paladins are excellent in the beginning being able to take 3 golems at once. Warriors and Druids, decent offtanking, but still quite meh.
Iron Qon - Vengeance tanks are VERY powerful here, all other tanks - meh.
Consorts - Monks and Paladins are quite powerful here since the Vengeance stays quite high all the time. Warriors and Druids and AMAZING offtanks for this fight with a Vengeance Main tank. DKs are great for P2, otherwise - meh.
Lei Shen - Monks are in another league, many CDs, high sustained, high burst aoe, Provoke, Guards, eating Decaps, solo tanking Capability. Paladins are not so far behind, they have solo tanking capability and they do just as much single target sustained and can also eat Decaps. Druids and and Warriors are great offtanks for this fight with a Vengeance Main tank, very welcomed. DKs - are AMAZING in P2 and P3 due to their Gorefiend's Grip.

As you can see, all tanks have their ups and downs, but overall it is quite balanced. Yes Monks and Paladins are a bit better than the rest, but not by nearly as much as is let on.

I play a prot paladin as a main, currently with multiple dps front page rankings on heroic and normal mode kills, a tank being able to completely dwarf other dps is a beyond absurd thing to have transpired, tanking could be much more engaging without us having the absurd damage output, and by extension, healing output, they could make it so the rotation is purely based around active mitigation, the holy power system is flawed in the sense that, you will never do anything other than use 3 holy power, so everything before that can be completely ignored and never taken into account. The self healing achieved via SoI/Sacred shield is far to strong currently, every progression boss i require less than a 3rd of the external heals my tanking counterpart does, purely due to how strong both SS/SoI are with the haste build, the ability to keep yourself alive without any assisted healing once your cooldowns are up is something that should never have come into play in this game.

I think anyone who plays a Prot paladin and doesn't think it is broken is somewhat delusional, i love the class/spec, but i know that it is a joke, that being said, the class itself isn't the joke, it is purely the haste build, every overpowered aspect of it becomes greatly reduced the moment you reallocate to mastery, or god forbid stamina.

we had our prot war re-roll to prot pala this reset.. megeara rampages became a lot easier to heal suddenly (of course they would when hes doin 4-5mil healing and 100k+ hps, its like a 4th healer!).. and all farm boss's have been a lot easier as well.

Hes got a 483 ilvl weap, yet does more damage than he did on warrior.. and has 505-510 ilvl compared to his 524 ilvl warrior and as a healer.. i find him the same to heal... damage wise they seem to be the same, only dif is the pala heals up more afterwards... but considering the 15-20 ilvl gap i cant imagine wot its gonna be like when he has more ilvl and more experience of the class

That won't happen. You can go back and look through my thread history I've posted my logs before. Instead of arguing on topic, my guild and I just get picked apart by people on forums who would rather just insult us than accept any reasonable fact. The FACT is we killed the boss with the prot paladin in 14 item lvels less.

Also, interestingly the competely OP prot pala died on your kill attempt (which you killed because he died in under 6 minutes) A good proportion of your wipes went over 7 minutes. Ofc this kill only happened because the prot pala came in *sarcasm* His 45k dps and 1.1m raid healing on the kill certainly tilted the balance.
Also, his 25% uptime on sacred shield and talent choice of execution sentence are really signs of a top notch paladin tank.

You have no credibility, plus you outright lie. Carry on making angry posts though, they are fun to read.

Yeah they're bloody OP, ToT has become infinitely easier for us since we got one, the healing they do is just insane. Having said that, of COURSE it's doable without a prot paladin - but it really does help a lot. Same goes for disc priests, wiped on Horridon hc for ages - Brought a disc priest in and one shot it, both of these specs just have such a huge impact on some fights.