147. The Artist-Troll War 4: GOOD ART TRIUMPHANT

This ended up taking longer than I had planned and was a lot more work than I envisaged. I’m glad I attempted a long-form story, but I don’t see myself doing it again anytime soon. I’m too spoilt with the Zen Pencils format of being able to change styles and subject matter with each new shorter comic.

The theme of internet trolls has been on my mind for awhile now. Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, comment boards … is it just me or is the internet being suffocated by negativity and hate? Not necessarily directed at my work but just in general. Maybe I’m visiting the wrong sites but everybody thinks they’re an expert and can’t wait to tell you you’re wrong, or something sucks and why the hell did that person even bother trying?

It’s time to choose a side. Are you on the side who takes the easy option? The troll. The armchair critic slinging snarky quips behind the safety of a keyboard. Firing sarcastic bullets at those in the trenches. Or are you a creator? Someone who makes something. Someone who lets themselves be vulnerable in front of an audience, who contributes something new and hopeful to an increasingly dark and depressing world. Choose. Which side are you on?

And listen, I know my work ain’t the greatest thing since sliced bread. I’m relatively new at being a professional cartoonist and I’m sure Zen Pencils isn’t for everyone. But I’m all in – 110%. I’m going to continue to learn and (hopefully) improve and I’m extremely lucky to have a loyal group of fans who have supported and encouraged me every step of the way.

I’ll leave you with this wonderful letter from the incomparable Kurt Vonnegut which a reader (thanks Akshaya) recently posted on the ZP Facebook page (I got the transcript from Letters of Note and I adapted a similar quote from Vonnegut nearly two years ago). Students at Xavier High School had to write their favourite authors asking them to come visit their school. Vonnegut was the only author to reply:

I thank you for your friendly letters. You sure know how to cheer up a really old geezer (84) in his sunset years. I don’t make public appearances any more because I now resemble nothing so much as an iguana.

What I had to say to you, moreover, would not take long, to wit: Practice any art, music, singing, dancing, acting, drawing, painting, sculpting, poetry, fiction, essays, reportage, no matter how well or badly, not to get money and fame, but to experience BECOMING, to find out what’s inside you, TO MAKE YOUR SOUL GROW.

Seriously! I mean starting right now, do art and do it for the rest of your lives. Draw a funny or nice picture of Ms. Lockwood, and give it to her. Dance home after school, and sing in the shower and on and on. Make a face in your mashed potatoes. Pretend you’re Count Dracula.

Here’s an assignment for tonight, and I hope Ms. Lockwood will flunk you if you don’t do it: Write a six line poem, about anything, but RHYMED. No fair tennis without a net. Make it as good as you possibly can. But don’t tell anybody what you’re doing. Don’t show it or recite it to anybody, not even your girlfriend or parents or whatever, or Ms. Lockwood. OK?

Tear it up into teeny-weeny pieces, and discard them into widely separated trash recepticals. You will find that you have already been gloriously rewarded for your poem. You have experienced becoming, learned a lot more about what’s inside you, and you have made your soul grow.

God bless you all!
– Kurt Vonnegut”

Thanks for your patience while I tried something a bit different. Next comic, we’ll get back to more cartoon quotes from inspirational folks!

Eh. Professional illustrator here. Count me in on Team Troll. Criticism won’t hurt you — even rude, ugly criticism. If it’s silly and shallow, it should just roll off your back. If it’s got a point, it’s got a point and you should look into it.

If you’re happy with your work just the way it is, you’ll never get better.

Go back to Part 1 and tell me all those statements (the ones that made skulls explode in green slime) were trolling, not criticism. “Her performance was thin and unconvincing” is just not what trolling looks like. We don’t even know who she tweeted that to — a friend asking for a movie recommendation, maybe?

Well, since this comic is about trolling criticism, not opinionated recommendations to friends, my bet is that she is trolling and not recommending to a friend.

Your comment is a great example of trolling; refusing to look at the art for what it is, and instead injecting your own perspective into it and claiming the artist (not just the art) has failed because it doesn’t meet your arbitrary criteria.

It does this by cherry picking “data” to prove the trolls point, ignoring the fact that the troll is ignoring the work of art as a whole. Religious trolls do this by charry picking phrases out of holy books that help their politicial agendas. Political trolls do this by cherry picking studies that support their personal believe.

There is something broken about the heart of a troll, that makes them afraid of looking at the creations of others on their own terms, allowing art to challenge their world view.

Instead, trolls have already decided what their world view is, and through the use of childish arguments and name calling, they avoid anyone who disrupts their sense of self by resorting to name calling and arguments that have a passing appearance of logic, hoping that anyone reading it will be too angry or upset to notice that the troll is just acting like a child that never had to grow up.

While the comic was rather flawed, the truth is that the real action was happening in the comment storm. Your attitude betrays that there’s an uncomfortable truth behind a very flawed execution that made it easy to dismiss the topic. There was relatively little criticism of any kind in response to these comics – most of it was the most baseline “I eat poop” kind of trolling.

You may adopt a nihilistic internet worldview, in which mountains of crap are shrugged off, but in the end this accomplishes little. And all it does is allow the status quo to continue. Of course, if in truth you secretly enjoy indulging in cruelty and actual trolling, you might rush out to defend trolls and insist none of matters. A lot of the comments to this comic series seemed suspiciously pregnant with that agenda.

The strip makes no such distinction, though. It has no examples of “constructive” criticism- to it, all criticism is irrelevant trolling. You’re either a critic or a creator. It’s a false dichotomy (Which side is Mark Twain on?) and to my mind basically advances the wrong worldview of the whole thing. If you are making art, criticism isn’t the enemy. Apathy is.

I would even argue that finely wrought criticism is creation in and of itself. Are Roger Ebert and Lester Bangs not creators? Some critics write so well it’s rewarding to read their criticism even if you haven’t seen or read what they’re discussing.

What makes Ebert great is that his love of film, his desire to want every movie to be a great movie, comes forth in his reviews. Even when a movie fails, he (usually) finds something to love, but either way, he always makes his disappointment clear.

Trolls, on the other hand, want things to fail, and look for any excuse as proof that the art is a failure. They aren’t expressing disappointment that a fellow human being attempted the impossible and didn’t succeed. They gloat over the fact that a fellow human being dared to dream and was justly punished.

Ebert wrote many reviews that were positively scathing. For your distinction to be meaningful requires a reader to judge the intention of the critic, which is impossible. The idea that S Weasel, whose thoughtful criticism you deemed trolling, is ‘gloat[ing] over the fact that a fellow human being dared to dream and was justly punished’ is an absurd projection. I would think an equal argument could be made that people like you and Gavin are resentful that laymen dare to express their opinions and are not justly punished (by their twice-murder in a four page long cartoon, for example).

Trolling is to criticism as cynicism is to skepticism. Just saying something needs work is criticism. Calling someone a name, or telling someone you don’t like what they’re doing, is not the same thing, and is trolling.

I mean, if you’re happy with your attitude the way it is, you’ll never get better…

I could relate tales of art school that would singe the hair off your arms. I got one critique that was so rough, I marched straight down to the office and changed my major. (Long story; I still have no idea what that bitter old coot was trying to tell me, but his class was required for my major).

Thank you, Weasel. Sadly all those replying to you are desperately trying to redefine any and all criticism to be “trolling” and declare “b-but it’s not the same thing” when their inability to grasp subjectivity becomes apparently.

There is constructive like saying one should try using a certain brand of marker then there is being mean like saying you shouldn’t even try Practice makes perfect and if someone is mean a person will give up and never try because some things are hurtful

There is a difference between constructive critique and mindless hate-spewing. (If ‘professional illustrator’ up there doesn’t know that, I question his professionality. Or his understanding of basic concepts.)
So while the internet can be a great place to trade experience, knowledge and emotion, to grow with each other to make every day a brighter one, the internet is also a place of hate and envy. It invites us to be hateful, since we don’t have to excuse our actions in front of anyone.
I think these comics showed that in a great and memorable way. Hate consumes and is never satisfied.
If you draw comics yourself, only then can you give adivce and critique in comic drawing. If you write, only then can you possibly know where the challenges lie and help another cross them. Someone who does that, who uses his own experiences to help another, is a critic.
Everyone else, be it on the internet or in fancy journals or your friends and family, has neither the right nor the ability to give advice. And who does it, despite not knowing, despite not having experienced the same toils, who does it just to justify his own sad existence, is a troll. Simple as that.
So yeah, I am deeply impressed by your work and hope ZenPencils keeps it up for many years to come. It’s a wonderful thing I can sit here in Germany and be inspired by your comics. You persuaded me to publish my writing online (as it is not the critic who counts) and actually be proud of what I do. You’re doing a lot of great work, not only for the world of arts but for people. Giving a quote, two or three lines of dry advice, life with these comics, you educate and give hope for the brave and the fearful.

“I think these comics showed that in a great and memorable way. Hate consumes and is never satisfied.”

Exactly. This is why people are so happy to refer to people they dislike at trolls, dismiss their views as disgusting and fantasize about pummeling them until they disappear. It’s fine though, because their deserve the hate, and when we call them mindless, refer to their expressing their ideas as spewing them, and don’t bother to actually address any points they might have to make directly, it doesn’t matter, because they… as critics… don’t matter. Instead, our criticisms matter. Our insulting labels are accurate. And when we voice our criticisms against the people we’ve carefully dismissed as uglymindless disgusting trolls,we aren’t spewing hate, we’re spreading love.

You don’t need to be a chef to have a sense of taste. You don’t need to be a film maker to be a movie reviewer, you don’t need to be a game developer to gauge how much you enjoy a game. Obviously if you were right, then art wouldn’t be released to the general public, websites like IMBD wouldn’t exist with ratings, movie reviewers, art critics, every single person who has an opinion but doesn’t make art wouldn’t have a job. If you think someone needs to be a comic maker to have an actual opinion on a comic and offer critique, then that is wildly incorrect. If you think someone who isn’t a comic maker doesn’t have a valuable opinion, comment sections on websites like this wouldn’t exist.

“If you draw comics yourself, only then can you give adivce and critique in comic drawing.” Why? Why would you need to create comics to know whether or not you enjoy reading one? I’m a writer, and I would never say only a fellow writer was allowed to articulate whether or not they enjoyed a book. That’s absurd. Should all the non-artists required for our society to run — taxi drivers, teachers, engineers, garbage men — should just resign themselves to an opinionless existence, with mindless consumption of art?

In my opinion, there is a difference between trolling and criticism, which you do not appear to recognize, since you use the same word to describe both.

Criticism is, in essence, a positive action – pointing out not only what is bad about something, but also what is good. This is the road to improving oneself – listening to good criticism and taking from it what is valuable to oneself.

Good criticism can be, in itself, art.

Trolling is marked, in my opinion, by negativity. It belittles the creator, disallows anything good in the artist and his/her work. The goal of the troll is to diminish the artist, the art, and the very act and quality of creativity. It is epitomized by the Robert Heinlein quote, ‘A “critic” is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased—he hates all creative people equally.’

Sadly Heinlein wrote this before the internet and before the term “troll” acquired its additional and current definition.

I couldn’t help but notice there was noticeably less Miyazaki in this one. Huh, it’s like you read the comments on the last one about the guy hating giant robots and you not doing any research whatsoever.

You’re super talented and keep up the awesome work. When I get in a funk, I read through a bunch of your comics. They give me a whole lot of perspective and inspiration. So even if there’s haters out there, just know that I’m a big fan!

No, I’m sorry, if you think some complete stranger on the internet saying “you suck” is a serious problem, you’ve got some growing up to do. That stuff is just harmless fluff.

You want some serious, nasty, harsh, rude, sarcastic criticism? Go to art school, where you’ll pay people tens of thousands to make you feel two inches high. And that stuff *really* hurts, because they know what they’re talking about. And no, it isn’t always done in the spirit of helping you grow and improve — it’s sometimes done in the spirit of discouraging someone who doesn’t have what it takes. Because sometimes that’s the kindest thing.

The creative professions are some of the most cruel and competitive in the world. My advice to the aspiring is: paint for fun, do something else for money.

Exactly. I’m not an art student, but it baffles me how easily people can get affected by “negative” comments. Sure, some comments can be rude or mean, and that rudeness may not be at all necessary. But it all depends on the main message that the comment is trying to convey–If it’s something that you don’t believe is useful, then simply leave it. Unless if they’re attempting to defame or directly harm you, you don’t have to let yourself get hurt by “negative” comments.

It’s perplexing to me how Gav can go through this whole process making these points, and some people still just won’t get it. It probably just helps to illustrate those points.

Like any action (if you can call it that), the value of criticism is about intention. Even if it’s fairly savage (and possibly well-earned), if the critic’s intention is not to hurt the artist but express honest exasperation with what the artist is doing, fair play. It can be just a difference of taste or disappointment in an artist not moving forward, disagreements regarding execution or source ideas being expressed. HOWEVER, I think Gav is talking about criticism that comes from hate (duh, it’s right on the monster!) – negative feelings about the artist and likely about oneself and people in general, using words meant to hurt the artist and only encourage the artist not to work again in this path, if ever again. Trolling has the extra element of the critic wanting attention and some need for validation without taking “no” for an answer. It’s kind of sad. And again, it all comes down to intention, and being completely honest about that.

So it seems there are some pretty clear distinctions there. And if you say “yeah, but…”, that’s fine, but really ask yourself why.

Thanks, Gav. I’m not always blown away by your work, but often I am, and will defend your right to do it.

I’ve been looking at all your works everytime I need inspiration. You are a great artist. Although I do wanna point out that the trolls are there for a reason. Criticism is there to help artists get better and the trolls are there as a challenge to the artist. Though you may never prove to the troll that he was wrong, you can atleast prove it to yourself. Not that I support hate and negativity. This is just my opinion. Keep making good art.

I don’t think it was blood. It looked more like the ugly green goo of envy and hatred. He took all the envy and negativity and turned it into art. Which is exactly what the author of this comic did too 🙂 That’s not just zen, it’s meta zen. I like it.

To me, there is a very clear distinction between the constructive criticism in your comment and the blatant trolling in the earlier pages of this comic. E.g., “your work is an absolute joke… worst video game ever… he’s a terrible comedian… this album is bullsh*t… your blog is a piece of crap”. Unlike your criticism, that was pure negativity without a constructive purpose.

But even when it comes to valid criticism… I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, but when I visit somebody, I don’t start criticizing the food that they worked hard to prepare and shared with me for free. Neither am I going to criticize my host’s furniture or clothing. I might say something when I eat at an expensive restaurant and the food is not just overpriced, but also overcooked and over-salted. But when someone wines and dines me for free, it’d feel very rude for me to complain.

My personal opinion on criticism is that it needs to be constructive criticism for it to be good. Criticism that is just criticism without any good feedback on how to improve is useless, but when the criticism is something like, “Hey, I thought this was good/okay/bad, here is what I think you can do to improve it” and then ending it there, then that is when I think that criticism is not negative but positive in nature instead. That said, “A better world starts with you”, so think about what you say, everyone, instead of just barfing on your computer, think will this profit someone, or am I just being a jerk, think how can I help this person get better, not how many different ways can I tell this person that they suck.

What the hell are you talking about? This art clearly reflects the author, and his interpretations of quotes (from whoever originally said them, which is less important in this context). Art has no strict definition – that’s what makes it art.

Miyazaki hated giant robots. He hated the culture they sprang from. He hated what it did to his fellow countrymen, how it turned them into no-good-do-nothings (I don’t necessarily agree with that, but I don’t live there, so I can’t comment).

Miyazaki loved nature, and he loved things that were alive. His entire aesthetic was about the stillness of life, how it continues even as everything is standing still. He loved quiet moments.

A GOOD homage would integrate the artistic ideas of the one getting homaged. A GOOD homage would avoid putting what the one getting homaged hated in life.

Thus, this is a bad homage, which misrepresents the man’s work, his desired purpose, and what he felt and believed.

No, you’re looking too deeply into the comic. It morphed into a Godzilla-like beast, which I feel was the intention all along (Gavin wanted to tell a Godzilla/Mecha story). If there is another message, it is more likely a reflection of society – we rarely react to anything important pre-emptively, only fixing things when the shit hits the fan.

Comics are a visual medium, which use images to say things. And it is my understanding that this comic fails to use images to say what it wants to say.

If Gavin wanted to tell a Godzilla/Mecha story, then he wouldn’t put Miyazaki in it. He wouldn’t make the monster a “hater”. This is obviously a reaction to the high negativity he sees, and the comic description says as much.

And that’s fine. Art is a means for us to react to what happens in life, among other things.

Miyazaki, the hate-monster, “troll-killing time”; these are all knowing, conscious artistic choices. The subject matter is horrible, but it’s a subject that he chose to tackle. And I can object to his artistic choices because he put them in front of me, and that is my duty as the audience.

If Gavin wanted to make a kaiju comic, maybe he should actually just make a kaiju comic. Which this really isn’t.

I am bored and have nothing better to do. So I’m going to look at the description of this comic and point out the poor reasonings.

“,,,is it just me or is the internet being suffocated by negativity and hate? Not necessarily directed at my work but just in general.”

I’m pretty sure it’s directed at your work. No offense, Gavin, but my impression is that lots of people don’t like you.

“Maybe I’m visiting the wrong sites but everybody thinks they’re an expert and can’t wait to tell you you’re wrong, or something sucks and why the hell did that person even bother trying?”

This is confirmation bias. It means “it happened to me, so it must be true for everyone!” It does not discount your truth, but you are applying your truth to everyone. This is a fallacy.

“It’s time to choose a side. Are you on the side who takes the easy option?”

Nobody wants to be thought of as taking the easy option; thus, this might be considered to be the ‘poisoning-the-well’ fallacy? Perhaps.

“The troll. The armchair critic slinging snarky quips behind the safety of a keyboard. Firing sarcastic bullets at those in the trenches. Or are you a creator? Someone who makes something. Someone who lets themselves be vulnerable in front of an audience, who contributes something new and hopeful to an increasingly dark and depressing world.”

This passage has three combined fallacies; the personal bias fallacy as mentioned earlier (increasingly dark and depressing world), the appeal to spite, and the false dilemma.

The appeal to spite is easy; nobody likes trolls, so if I paint critics as all trolls, nobody will like critics. And that plays upon the audience’s emotions, specifically anger and bitterness. That’s bad.

The false dilemma renders a complicated situation into a binary choice. You’re either a good, lightbringing artist, or a demonic troll. Which discounts the artists who get into their profession to demean and undermine people. Which discounts the critics who want you to do better, to BE better.

You miss the point of art if you think it’s only to do good. Art can and does depress and bring people down. Propaganda posters. Books that put down entire subsets of people. Visual ideas that suggest that a group of people aren’t human. All of these are also art. Accept the dark and bright side of art.

“Choose. Which side are you on?”

There’s no fallacy that I can think of that these phrases exhibit (little help here, folks?), but I feel like they’re an appeal to aggressive emotion, the need to fight an enemy (which is not an established fallacy, I just made that up).

The last one would probably be a “false dichotomy”. The idea that you can only be a creator OR a troll is ridiculous. Plenty of art comes out of hate, and plenty of art is itself made as a criticism to something else.

“This is confirmation bias. It means “it happened to me, so it must be true for everyone!” It does not discount your truth, but you are applying your truth to everyone. This is a fallacy.”

This is an artist blog and you’re reading his post like a freaking robot. Would you rather him to spend his entire life doing exhaustive research to prove the exact % of site visitors reading a forum post who post positive fluff, constructive criticism, negative fluff, and any number of data points in between on a (well rendered!) chart? Would that satisfy you?

I would like to think him just stating his experience and viewpoint on this matter is enough. We can agree or disagree with it based on our own experience and viewpoint, and while doing so thank him for sharing it.

I’ll be honest here, I’ve mostly been a critic, in a fashion. I’ve been on a forum, and writing reviews for stories posted on there, while trying to create my own little story. I’ve written whole essays worth on single stories on how a single story made me feel, while trying to stay honest to myself.

Why? Well, before that, I was part of a writing group, and I felt miserable. Everyone in the group seemed to have no restrains on telling me on how I screwed up, but not a single praise, or even a mark of ‘good job’. It was harsh to put in all that work to get nothing but negativity back. The only time I did was when I peeked at a conversation, and told to people that I did do some strong feelings with my work. It made my day that time. So when I found some fiction I really liked? I had an urge to praise them for it, to tell them how it made me feel. I thought I’d make them feel right for their work too, make them smile.

And the more I read, the more I continued writing for them, and I went into more details about what went right, and what went wrong. I read every stories twice or thrice to get every details, and try to understand everything, to explain these feelings. It made me understand more about writing techniques, and sensations, about plot structures, and pitfalls in the writings I read. I like to believe it made me a better writer in the process.

At the same time, I hoped to reach the authors, to make them see the mistakes they might have missed, and maybe share ways to make it work. I hoped to make the stories in the future better.

I know I sound mean at times, and frustrated. I don’t want to spread the hate, but it’s frustrating to read a story that takes the lazy route, and the story suffers from it, like the overpowered Mary Sues. I wish I coudl sometimes improve them myself, to give them the feelings they really could reach. But I can’t always claim to understand everybody’s meaning behind what they write either. Even my writing can be flawed.

I know there’s a lot of haters out there, writing comments without thinking, or just trolling for a reaction, but I don’t think taking out the comment box will help. Just like there can be better writing, that there can be better art, there can be better comments. Figure out why something makes you feel this way, and put it into words. Make it constructive.

If you give an artist a praise, and tell them why you praised them, you may be able to make them feel better than ever. I’m sure of it.

As for these comics, I love the work you’ve done here. Even if the quotes don’t always match what the original messenger meant, these strips are what those quotes mean to you, and even than can be inspiring. I can’t say I agree with every single one of them, but a lot of them inspired me. Even those I disagreed with made me think of ‘why’, and I grew with those.

try thinking before you do things next time because your entire arc showcases a complete and utter lack of care and consideration.

this is literally the worst thing ive ever seen and i cant believe it isnt a joke. criticizing isn’t “easy,” what’s easy is “creating” without first putting critical thought into what you’re consuming, which is something you, zenpencils guy, need to learn more about.

Also, the way you drew Miyazaki is seriously racist. Pro tip for drawing Asian people – we don’t /actually/ have slanted eyes. at all.

LOL. either way, he’s drawn like a caricature and thats not cool. actually, he’s “written” like a caricature too. like, he’s a japanese cartoonist so he has to like giant mechas? come on. And Miyazaki himself is pretty elitist within the animation world, he’s known for throwing out pretty harsh and (in my personal opinion) uncalled-for criticism towards his peers. Thats just my opinion of the guy though, and its not necessarily relevant, but he’s not the blindly-accepting all-art-loving maniacally-grinning guy the comic portrays him as… SMH.

Gotta agree with BOOM – professional critics are hired not just to say “the movie is great” or “the movie sucks”. They are hired to entertain the readers/viewers. The way they turn a phrase or relate the subject matter to history/literature/pop culture can be just as creative as the material they are reviewing.

A few years ago I probably would have laughed at the idea of “reviews are art.” But after reading more and more of Ebert’s reviews fully, that man was just as much of an artist as those who created the works he reviewed.

You’re a “creator” alright. A creator of Shit. You’ve been throwing your toys out of your pram for four comics because you can’t stand the thought of criticism and all you’ve actually done is reinfoce how badly you deserve it. lmao.

I don’t know. I’ve enjoyed some of his comics but this is seriously the same pedantic “You’re just jealous and a hater” bullshit response to criticism you see everywhere. Yes, there’s a lot of negativity in the world, but people seem to forget that criticism goes both ways.

When you create a work of art, and release it to the public, you ARE opening yourself up to critique. It’s the way the system works. People see Zen Pencils and they say “Hey, this is pretty good! I’m going to share this with my friends and tell them that it’s good.” This is how art gets notice. Through criticism. We wouldn’t know about Moby Dick if it weren’t for dedicated critics who passionately defended it as a masterpiece.

But putting up with negative criticism is a part of the package. And sometimes that negative criticism is wholly justified. This comic right here, the 4-part Troll saga or whatnot, is a bad comic. It is the same derivative “You’re all just haters” defense that has been parroted time and time again. It seems to come from a place of pretension (assuming that just because you make art it makes you good at it), a place of anxiety (I can’t deal with the negative criticism, so I’m going to call you all trolls and dismiss you), and it’s a load of sentimental cheese, rehashing the same old “giant monster metaphor” that has been used time and time again. I mean, right from the get go we start with the slobbish internet troll, a mean and ugly stock character who’s entire purpose in life is to be pathetic while mocking all of the beautiful handsome artists who can do no wrong.

Look, Tommy Wiseau’s “The Room” is a work of passion. But that doesn’t make it good. Sometimes people make bad art. It happens. Sometimes people make good art that certain people don’t like because it doesn’t suit their tastes. It happens.

Sometimes criticism is strong and constructive and can highlight the good as well as the bad, or at least fairly highlight WHY the work is bad. And sometimes the criticism is course and brutish and contributes nothing to the conversation other than “u suck.” It happens. You’ve got to learn to brush the dirt off your shoulder.

Calling this a series or an arc is like calling the trips I make to the bathroom in a single day a ‘saga’.
It’s unsubtle, blunt, dumbed-down, disrespectful to Miyazaki, and ignorant to any line between criticism and “hate trolling”. It’s an attitude that’s better shared with 13-year old anime fans on Deviantart.

Excellent, informed, – dare I say, creative – criticism isn’t easy to do and takes something called practice (I posit that Mr. Ebert would have agreed). And lazy criticism isn’t worth anyone’s time. It’s fine that there’s a disagreement in the comments for this arc about the extent and nature of what criticism is. Truly being hateful means disavowing the idea that that conversation is an acceptable one to have. And then lambasting the participants. Which is also clearly happening.

I liked your comic, Gavin. Critically, I might suggest that there’s more room to distinguish trolling from other expressions of negative evaluation, and I might question the monster mashing as lacking in nuance. But I appreciate your point – however I interpret its comment on civility – and I like the moon paint. High five.

No, I second Alanna’s comment. The reason why is that it is one of the few examples of genuine constructive criticism in this comments thread.

Of course, Gavin must have known that posting a series of comics like this would invite a shit storm just as it has, but he chose to do it anyway: it was an artistic message he needed to get out. I felt the relative simpleness of the story and lack of subtlety when presenting dichotomies was at least semi-intentional – I thought it was quite a nice meta reference to the lack of nuance in most troll comments.

Constructive criticism isn’t just criticism that the artist can potentially learn from, it is criticism that is constructed in a way intended to help the artist learn from it. This is why the above critique is really intelligent. Some of the crit above (eg Miyazaki hated mechs) is irrelevant/ unconstructive because 1) This is not a Miyazaki comic, and 2) this comic is not a beta test – he’s not asking you to improve *this* comic. I’m fairly sure most of those who have been quoted on Zen Pencils (because of time/cultural distance), were they alive, would have some level of misgiving at their words being used in this way, that doesn’t make those comics any less effective.

ahaha this is the most juvenile power fantasy. YOU SAID BAD THINGS ABOUT MY COMIC WELL GUESS WHAT. NOW A GIANT ROBOT PAINTS THE WORD ART ON THE MOON WITH YOUR BLOOD AND I AM VINDICATED FOREVER. get redpilled by moldbug you awful illustrator of ayn rand quotes

ZEN Pencils loyalist here. No, not blind loyalty. I just know it’s hard to put your self and your work out there and receive all these criticisms. It doesnt mean I agree with all of Gav’s POV but he has my respect. This is just a chapter in his book. Wouldnt you rather read the whole thing before judging it as trash? That’s just me btw.

I understand your frustration with Internet trolls, but you are creating a false choice – creator or troll. Some of us are not that creative, but we voraciously consume what other are able to create. Sometimes we love it, other times no. Most of us are able to express our opinions politely, some not so much. But remember, what you call a “troll” is just the negative version of a “fanboy” or groupie – trolls just dish out the negativism, while fanboys fawn the people they attach to and defend everything they do whether it’s deserved or not. Are you going to slam the groupies as well?

There is a sickness in all of us. Every time we comment on the boards and fail to connect to the other person as a person we give in to this sickness.

Every time we write to tear down, to laugh at another, to get our kicks by causing pain we are giving in to this sickness.

I suspect that those who do this are, at heart, weak and sick. They need treatment. Perhaps the emergence of the Internet is giving the weak and the sick in our society more of a platform and more visibility than ever before. Now, we can see more individuals who display these infirmities than ever before.

Before we had gatekeepers, editors, the price of a press, and other things that kept the visibility of the sick muted. No more. Now a cheap tablet or smartphone and a connection to the Internet is all you need to spew your illness where everyone can see it. Lack of moderated boards add to the problem. You see, it is the problem of the Commons, bad behavior is not expensive, but the cost of moderating bad behavior still is.

Will we outgrow this? I think not. We can make it less visible by adopting measures such as moderated boards and sinking comments under a sea of dislikes, but the underlying sickness will remain. Before anyone comments, yes, I realize “this is the human condition”, one that every religion exhorts its followers not to give in to. I am just saying that I won’t give in to it and I ask that everyone reflect on their comments before hitting the Send button unless you too wish to be seen as a destroyer rather than a creator.

Great comment. They need treatment. I got treatment (for other things) and realized how much I hated myself and needed to bring everyone around me down to my level. It angered me even further that I couldn’t bring everyone into my dark world. Trolling was the path of least resistance to make myself feel better on a daily basis.

It’s okay to be a troll. It’s okay to be yourself. It’s equally okay to open your heart and love the world. And when you (the trolls) take that step to facing a demon or two…it’ll be okay.

If you think you defeat trolls by battling them;
then you are mistaken.

Ever heard the expression “don’t feed the troll”
All a troll is, is a person that doesn’t like their self; and is thus compelled to try and get attention from other people.
Seeing as a person that doesn’t like their self typically has nothing of merit to garner attention… They typically resort to trying to degrade the efforts of others.

They are to be pitied rather than lashed out against.
They have no power save that which you give them.

I’m not sure if you are calling all the critics here trolls, but it sounds like it. If you take the time to read the negative responses, most are pretty well-reasoned and measured. Few, if any, people are telling Gavin that he sucks and should take a hike and never draw again. I love most of his work. This one series I and others happened to disagree with.

Gav,
Keep swinging for the fences (an old baseball term), because you’re hitting a helluva lot more than the ones who aren’t swinging at all. I wouldn’t blame you at all if you turned off comments. Just know that there are more than a few of us in your cheering section!

This is likely because “trolls” are telling you things in a rude way that are actually true; or that you fear are true; and instead of facing those truths or fears…
So you lash out at those that illuminate them; albeit “creatively.”

Which is admittedly entirely your business.

It’s just kind of sad to watch;
but you have a large number of people cheering you on in this delusion;
and you seem to be happy with what you’ve “accomplished” with your effort;
so my sadness and frank embarrassment for you is entirely my problem.

What if Gavin has been lying to us this whole time? Maybe he’s making this purposefully bad series to “troll” the real content creators? After he used white supremacist, Theodore Roosevelt’s quote to affix some semblance of authority to his message, it made me wonder, “Could Gavin be making half-assed garbage to troll better artists?” I’m worried about Zen Pencils, truly. I am a die hard fan, I don’t like questioning or criticizing, just like Gavin, but I can’t help but wonder if we’re all being played.

The line between ‘criticism’ and ‘trolling’ can be a fine one. It can depend on perceived intentions.
I recently provided some well intended but unsolicited criticism, and was blocked as a result. While, on reflection, I can see my comments were a bit concentrated and harsh, they certainly weren’t intended to belittle.
While I accept that person’s right to shield themselves from unwanted annoyances, it is a little sad that I now have no means of finding out if that actually was the reason, and how I can go about mending fences.

I Am big fan of Zen Pencils, but I’m not impressed by this series. Seems like hate can sometimes be one’s own reflection if one loses sight of the big picture. It’s art…no lives are being saved here. Put things into perspective.

In this comic: The image of a self-proclaimed pacifist who has been very well known to be critical of the works of others is used in a story where he beats an amalgamation of critics, and then paints the moon with the blood of this monster.

Now, some of you might be wondering why the creator of this… comic could have done something so horribly misguided. I know some of you might think differently, but I choose to posit that he has an incredibly small penis, and is insecure about it, so he has to go off on people with legitimate complaints so that he can feel good about himself.

What is art? More importantly what is good art and what is bad art? Who decides? If everyone must decide for themselves then what’s wrong with someone calling your art bad?

Why are you doing art? To make a living as a professional artist? Then you’ll have to deal with critics. And ignore the trolls.

If you are doing art just for the sake of “becoming” as Kurt Vonnegut says then you can ignore both the critics and the trolls.

So basically trolls should always be ignored. If you feel hate in a criticism, it’s trolling and you should just ignore it. Tell your ego to bend like Neo and let that one pass through. Even better, send out some good vibrations for that poor troll who has nothing better to do than hate random dudes on the internet.

But if someone criticizes your art and you don’t feel any hate behind it, maybe you should listen to it. It will hurt as hell. But if you listen to it, you can improve. If you ignore it too, you might still improve at your own pace. You might make a style of your own out of the mistakes you make. Everything goes in art. Maybe one day you’ll be famous and that same critic will be criticizing some other person’s work for not being exactly like yours.

I liked the comic but not as much as the previous stuff. It took too long to finish and as many people have pointed out, the story does not take in all point of views and is kind of naive.

It would be easier to take the side of the “creators” if the comic didn’t seem so uninspired and predictable. The haters rise up, so you fire a creativity beam at them and write Art on the moon in big letters. There’s nothing particularly personal about that, especially when you hide your ideas behind other people’s images and words.

There’s more personal opinion and vulnerability in someone’s criticism of your work, because at least they reveal a love of Miyazaki beyond cliches like “rainbows and unicorns”.

(Incidentally, hate is a destructive feeling all people have in their hearts to some degree. It’s part of being human. We’re flawed and we create things, it’s not an either/or scenario.)

Even your response borrows a quote from Vonnegut, as if to say “here’s someone famous who agrees with me”. Trouble is, the quote’s about play. To grow as a person, you need something that fulfills you. To grow as an artist, you need knowledge and critique.

Or, whatever, all people are trolls and the world’s being turned into a cesspit by the internet. Sounds like the words of a “hater” to me, but what do I know?

Well, art is supposed to create an emotional response. If the response is “WTF, this sucks” then it is still an emotional response.

This comic is seriously overdone, heavy handed, self righteous and not terribly good. He has drawn technically well, but “lashing out” doesn’t make for a particularly compelling or interesting story.

Chris Straub at chainsawsuit’s response to this comic is shorter, succinct and far better art. And it is criticism. So the “critics/evil trolls or creators/heroes” false dichotomy is smashed right there.

This is the most confusing aspect of the internet to me: in a space as vast as this, with more content than can be consumed in many lifetimes, why do people waste their time consuming content they don’t like?

Also, lots of commenters are talking about criticism, but did y’all actually read the first comic in this series? “Your work is an absolute joke,” “FAIL,” “waste of bandwidth” etc: this is not criticism, this is hate. (It’s also lazy hate.) This is the equivalent of going up to someone and saying “You suck.” It doesn’t suggest any ways to improve, it’s just expressing that you dislike something. If you dislike something, close the window and go find something you do like! Or better yet, create something yourself.

Apparently lots of people dislike Gav’s work, but the fact they keep coming back suggests that he’s doing something right. Controversial art, art that inspires hatred, is still art.

There is definitely a place in this world and on the internet for positive and legitimate criticism. Hateful comments, on the other hand, do indeed make you look like a big green monster.

I like Gavin’s art… sometimes. So on the occasions I think he makes a misstep (such as this series), I’m going to say why I think it was a misstep. The idea that you are either a “fan” or a “hater” is a false oversimplification of the way most people consume art. For instance, on the first page of this series there was a great example: one woman used to be a fan or a musician but found their latest album lacking. What should she have done? Just never followed up with that musician? Clearly it came from, as people have repeatedly said “criticism” must, a place where she believes the artist can improve. So, I would argue, does much of the criticism of Gavin’s latest series.

Isn’t it interesting how many people seem to feel a need to respond to this topic. Certainly shows that it touches something tender.

As with all hate, resentment, trolling and opinionating it comes from a state of insecurity. So does the need for retaliation in the way that is portrayed in the comic. Evil begets evil, and trying to conquer evil in a similar violent manner will result in an equal response and further continuation of reaction. The question is not so much how to react as if to react.

Well, regardless of whether or not this comic is good, it can’t denied that it inspired some intelligent, thoughtful discussion. I think that that’s probably the most important thing too, because it helps everyone learn, and hopefully gain an appreciation of both sides of the argument.
Just my opinion.

Every day, before I go to work, I quickly browse my bookmarked comics. Some are fun, some are adventurous, some are kind stupid, and then there’s Zen Pencils. It is the last one bookmarked, because with its quotes it taught me a lot and inspired me a great deal.
Sadly, this whole story arch just angried and disturbed me. It didn’t feel zen or motivational, it just felt like a boring story told by an artist who wants to be perceived like a victim, and you’re better than that.
So I’m really glad this war is over.
Gav, your previous work is amazing, amusing and fun. It really helped me through tough times, as it helped many others.
Please get back to it.

Are we jerks because we want Zenpencils to be better? Is his point really proved when there are people who criticize from a position of care and love, when his message there states that there are only perfect artists and hateful trolls?

I don’t hate. I am trying to shake Gavin’s shoulders and scream in his face; “YOU CAN BE BETTER! YOU CAN DO BETTER! BE BETTER!”

I’d love to see Gav become a good artist. He’s good at drawing. He has a clean style and is able to emulate other styles of varying degrees of success. The final output of most of his comics though are sometimes laughably bad, as the content is often pretty stupid interpretations of quotes, or this time, a bad original work.

@Tom: There is such a thing as criticism of criticism itself. And your criticism is rubbish, which is just so ironic. Where are your specific examples? What’s with the useless generalizations? “Of most of” and “is often” are the words of lazy, stupid thinkers; back it up or shut up. What content is “pretty stupid interpretations of quotes,” and how? And how exactly is this a bad original work? Do yourself a favor and go carefully analyze some real criticism that a professional makes a living off of. See how there is always an actual argument present, backed by concrete specifics, because criticism is about meaningful evaluation, not venting your mentally half-baked opinions. You see, reality is based on merit; it’s called natural selection. So if you really want Gav to be better, stop sucking so bad yourself.

Show YOUR work. Till then, do your troll dance while we fail to care. Trolls are the ultimate critic, and inevitably not producers. You simply make my point. If you want something better for YOU, by all means produce it. Where is you BETTER work? I’m dying to see it.

See here’s the thing; “Let’s see you do better” has never been or ever will be a valid response to criticism. It is a logical fallacy.

I don’t need to raise chickens to know which eggs are rotten and which eggs aren’t.

But y’know what? I do raise metaphorical animals; I raise goats. The metaphorical raising of goats is very dissimilar to the metaphorical raising of chickens, but there are vital similarities and principles. Principles like “don’t whip the chickens or ducks” or “keep the foxes and the dogs from mixing”.

I have my goat milk. But I also want Gavin’s eggs, and I want them to be better. Because then we’ll all have better things.

(no, I won’t show you what it is I’m doing, because that would leave me open to attack. I’m not stupid)

Ah, okay. I get what you’re talking about. “Fuck Gavin for not seeking MY (Jerk Smitty McJerkerson) approval before putting out his comic.”

And that is not my intent.

Here’s how this relationship works; Gavin puts out comics. We the audience say what we feel about it, what works, what doesn’t, etcetera.

That’s it. That’s all it is.

He can take our words to heart and change (which may be for the worse, who knows?), or he may just strive forward. It’s up to him.

Nobody tells people who complain about the food at restaurants that they don’t know a fucking thing because they weren’t trained as a chef. Because chefs can make fucking mistakes and then people end up with a bad taste in their mouth.

Really though I’ve come to the conclusion that the Zenpencils idea is the worst thing ever (notice how I’m not commenting on his artistic skills?). Because not only are you not expressing your own voice, your own speech, you’re coasting on other peoples’ hard work for commercial gain (now I’m commenting on Gavin’s ethics).

And this is absolutely commercial gain. If it wasn’t, this wouldn’t have a publisher.

This article articulates my thoughts so much better than I ever could;

“You pour a lot of heart and passion into your work. Of course you do: you care about it. But then, when it’s done and out there, it’s standing on its own. It’s not attached to you with an umbilical cord, it’s not an appendage of your body. If you treat it that way, then the praise and criticism of the work become praise and criticism of you the person. Instead of always feeling satisfied that you worked hard and applied your skill to create something that didn’t exist before, you end up feeling good or bad depending on whether people like or dislike the results. You have given the critics the power to validate you the person, not simply to offer their opinions of your hard work.”

Yeah, I’m sure glad that only people who make comics are allowed to have opinions on (bad) comics, much like you how you have to be an author/director/artist to have an opinion about books, movies or music.

One thing I’ve noticed here that is interesting, is that hate may well breed hate, it seems some of the non-haters or non-critiques have indeed become haters and critics themselves on this thread. However this indeed this was all started from Gav, which in turn was started from recieved hate…. and so on and so on.

I would have to say that this is not one of my preferred comics of gavs, but I would not normally feel the need to say it, but there is nothing wrong saying you dislike something, it just depends on the place from which it comes.

What I tend to do is to just decide I dont like it and move my focus on to something I do like but if you feel the need to make a comment, then I think its better to do it in a constructive way, just as simple as a ‘why’ you dont like it can be very helpful to the reciever.

But if you are the reciever, even if it is just from general hate, it’s how you interpret it and how you respond that counts.

We go through life with ups and downs, the ups are when we have it right, but the downs and the demons are the real learnings and life lessons, so as long as you utilise them, you will thrive in this life.

Whats also interesting is that Gav said himself that he didn’t really enjoy this one, so again, this didn’t come from a place of enjoyment in the first place.

But like he said, he’ll be back on form on the next one, keep going Gav, just learning and growing like the rest of us. 🙂

Another fan from India here (among the many you have).. The site has been a fantastic revelation to me and I have followed it for some time now, especially in moments of self-doubt.. I can’t thank you enough for creating it 🙂

Because this is your first solo flight, i.e. without some famous guy’s quote to back you up, I realize you might be more sensitive to the reception of this comic than to most of your other ones, so I just wanted to congratulate you on having the conviction to publish your work and share your thoughts!

I hope you take all the criticism in the comments, both positive and negative, in your stride and not get bogged down by the #hate..

Keep up the good work and hope to see many more solo flights in future (criticism notwithstanding).. Shine on you crazy diamond!

Shoulda just had Kim Jung Gi take down the troll monster with a single brushstroke.

On a serious note though you handled the whole topic in a pretty ham-fisted manner. The whole ‘troll vs artist’ thing isn’t as black and white as many others have mentioned. Critics can be caring people willing to see others grow, and creators can also be delusional narcissistic assholes, painting either side with a broad brush like the one your mech had will only divide people further.

The Internet has not only brought up a generation of harsh trolls but also a generation of people who have been led to believe that anything they do is above criticism as long as they’re making what they want and that they themselves are happy with it.

A director making a bad movie will be called out on it, an author writing a bad book will be called out on it, an artist making a bad album will be called out on it.
Why would some fucking guy making comics on the Internet be above criticism? Even if the criticism is just “your comic is bad and you should feel bad”, that’s still an opinion as valid as any other for the person saying it.

Everyone these days are so fucking intent on claiming that their work, no matter what it is, is “art”. As if simply by being referred to as “art” your work suddenly becomes elevated into something else, something bigger. It doesn’t matter if you call it art or whatever, if someone calls your comic bad for just being famous quotes misinterpreted as decently-drawn comics then those people are correct, just as much as the people saying your comic is good for the exact same reason.

A normal person would accept this, a sadsack piece of shit like about 50% of the people making anything on the Internet would instead get extremely upset and make a multi-part comic detailing how everyone who disagrees is actually a green monster or whatever.

What’s sad about the internet is that people think that they are entitled to everything. They get stuff for free, but they believe that they are entitled to get what they want. This means that they think that they can spout baseless empty criticism or insult people that give them things for free, unlike movies, books, and albums that you pay for. Yes, constructive criticism is good, but when you think that you are entitled to whatever you are criticizing, or saying it in a way that does more than just tell the person his/her mistakes, that is where things go wrong. All in all, unless you buy it, it’s free. Harsh criticism is good from time to time but when you literally did nothing for it, saying it in a nicer way is better. ^^

I really like Zen Pencils, but this 4-part series really doesn’t do it for me.

The message confuses me. One of the comics is entitled “Negativity Destroys All,” the old lady blew up for giving legitimate criticism, and the Roosevelt quote says that critics don’t matter. Yet, at the end of it all, all of that negativity and criticism spurred the creation of art, both in terms of the mech itself and what the mech’s pilot paints on the moon. So, what is the real message here? I’m not a very smart person, so I really wouldn’t be surprised if I just don’t get it, but it seems so muddled to me.

The ending reminds me of an SMBC comic in which someone at an art gallery is annoyed by another person who thinks that “angst” spelled out on a canvas with poop is deep. I would be the annoyed person in a situation like that, and it applies here as well. The guy piloting the robot had a whole lot of goo at his disposal, and of all the things he could have created, why did he decide to waste it on spelling a single word? I’m pretty sure that most people would give “art” spelled in troll goo just as much attention as they would give “angst” spelled in poop – which is to say, not much, because that’s not really creative. Almost anything else – a peace sign, a poem, one of Bob Ross’ happy little trees – would have required more creativity and had more meaning.

All that said, I still enjoyed the drawings themselves. I’ve always liked Zen Pencils’ art style, and this series is no exception. It’s bright and fun, two qualities that I’d like to see elsewhere.

Trolls are sociopaths. There’s nothing glamorous or defensible about them.

It’s always fascinating to me how folks who play their silly blame-the-victim games and try to defend trolling by telling everyone else to grow a thicker skin always seem to the ones who are unable to take criticism themselves. The nanosecond someone calls them out for being a dick on the internet, they come up with all sorts of lame excuses and rationalizations to maintain the status quo rather than reflect on their own poor behavior.

I’ve made it a point over the years to surround myself with awesome people, not people who have literally nothing better to do with their lives than be dicks on the internet. No regrets whatsoever. Life’s too short.

Dude, your stuff is generally good but saying that any negative comments are trolling is a gross overstatement… I mean, there are two types of comments: constructive and destructive. Destructive is hurtful, yes, but it’s meant to be IGNORED. The constructive side of criticism actually helps you improve your work. Being overly sensitive and going on a month long, passive-aggressive rant will only serve to instill into you and into your readers-who come to be inspired- a sense of entitlement and rejection of any criticism in general. You should have just kept going and ignored trolls.
That said, your usual stuff is great and I hope you can get back to illustrating quotes soon.

lol, you are all flaming faggots who are arguing about this dumb ass comic. What the fuck was this comic about anyway? some jack ass robot jerking off to some green shit. all of you should just shut up and enjoy my comment. i win, assholes

Gav, thanks for taking the time to put your idea on the page for us. I liked what you wrote even better than the comic, and agree 100%. A lot of other commenters misconstrued your point about criticism. I think your comics are sometimes less pointed for a reason: to allow interpretation. Mine is that clearly, constructive criticism is important, as it gives someone information on how to build themselves to be greater. People who offer advice are trying to help. The Hate Monster is clearly something else — something meant to destroy. I like the metaphor. And I really, really like the Vonnegut quote. Thank you for including it. In the name of help, my only criticism is that it would be a far greater payoff for the masses below to see something significant painted on the moon. Just the word “art” will not inspire anyone. I know you meant it as a metaphor, but I think the art robot painting something inspiring would make more people “look to the sky.” Thanks again, man — I can’t get enough of this website.

I’d like to begin this “comment” by stating that I do like Zen Pencils. I don’t like all of it (for instance, I just could not cope with the development of this artist-troll war) neither I have to but, in general, I like what I see and love the thoughts that circulate my head when I come by.

Before getting down to business I would like to present you with an anecdote:

Back when I was an art student, we all –the students- had to take a mandatory class through the last two years to try and figure out what we wanted to do as a “thesis.” It was a long and painful process to try and try, and try again, to give those ideas in our heads the outlet they deserved.

Any art student was allowed to attend the exhibitions of these classes and was free to comment on the works of others, as the teachers would undoubtedly do. I am still sad to say that most refused to comment on the work of their peers. I was no exception and so I talked about very few. I talked only about those that stroke something within me for good or bad.

However, back in the day the then head of our department, attended one of the exhibits I was attending as a guest of some friends and made it legendary. Her comments about one of the pieces was brutal. She stated that that particular work was of extreme poor quality and flat out told the student she should switch to a different academic program. The student left in tears –I kid you not.

I remember I was incredibly angry at the way she talked to the student. I remember too that one of the first thoughts in my mind was something along “it is sooooo easy for her to talk trash about this girl’s work, she has shown nothing for ages and got this job for her connections. When you are sitting at a desk risking nothing it is quite easy to come and tell someone how awful what they do is to you.”
Now, when I came and had a look at this several things came to my mind. Mostly, that aside for the formal stuff that bothered me to some degree I just did not agree with the content.
Gavin, I have read all the comments in this last thread and a lot of people are telling you something important. Criticism is not the same as trolling, and that is something that completely escaped you here. Even more, at times it seems as if, for you, they are the same, which is just ridiculous.
As many have also stated, apathy is an artist’s worst enemy. I rather have someone come and tell me that he would like to pee on my stuff than have no feedback at all. Of course, if someone tells me he would like to pee over my work with no reasonable explanation why, I would not get anything valuable out of it, and that is the main difference between criticism and trolling. Trolls are there to take a shot at you to see if you fall for it, critics are there to tell you what they don’t like and why so you can take a look at your work with a little less biased and try, and try again, to make it better to make it become something new.
Now, let’s not misunderstand. You do not have to make things better for others, heck you do not need people to come all the time a give you a pat in the back –I know it feels good and I know they mean well but having people telling you “what you do is awesome man!” 24/7 won’t help you grow either— but I just feel artists are here to experiment and shake things around. Your reader’s of the month have shown you how you have done that once and again Gavin, so why so bitter with the trolls?
BTW, the girl who left in tears never switched majors I was in the exhibit of her thesis and it was an awesome installation inside a room of very odd proportions. I regret not having taken pictures but it was obvious to all who attended she remember those awful words about her work and she had put them to work.

well said, cecile.. I also like zenpencil very much, and it made me sad when Gavin here seems cannot differentiate between critics and troll. C’mon Gav, I know you can do it. Grow up and learn to ignore the troll while still appreciate the critics.

Sometimes even to your friends or family, you have to ask them “What is it that need to be improved?” instead of “How’s my work?”
That way, you can get an honest critics from people who care about you. Let’s start from that, hopefully you will able to differentiate trolls from critics. I agree that trolls or hate are useless but we cannot block them anyway; best thing to do just to sort out which is critics and which is troll, then learn and develop further as a creator.

I will wait for your next comics, hopefully it can show how much you have grown.

The replies here are a perfect example of what is being said. Self important hate happy trolls. Furious that ANYONE does anything without their approval, and utterly and totally determined that all entertainment has to be structured and designed with their specific entertainment and esthetics in mind. The twisted, spoiled children of the me generation and the empowerment movement. They see the world specifically as a background for their needs and desires alone.

Ad again, the strongest critics are rarely (I did not say never) creative artists. Oh, they know how it should be done, (Just ask them) they know how YOU should do it. Yet somehow they have all day to hamstring and insult anyone who has the will and drive to TRY. They are far too busy saving the world from people motivated to actually acting. I’d rather see the most talentless artist sketching on a pad in a coffee house, that one hundred world saving critics making sure that their own personal standards for the work of others are being met.

Let’s say you draw a picture. And you don’t show it to anybody. That’s fine, it’s for you and only you. I have done this.

Let’s say you make a series of paintings and hang it in a gallery. That means that people can go there and say what they feel about it.

Putting things out into the public means that people will want to apply their standards to it. People who are trained in art, people who don’t understand it, people who just appreciate it.

You can’t set up a lemonade stand and give people lemonade and then cry when they say “There’s too much water in it” or “It’s too sweet” or “This is actually just orange juice, you picked the wrong fruit”.

Look, people are assholes, okay? I don’t deny that.

But that doesn’t mean that everybody’s an asshole. What it means is that if it’s in a public space, people will comment and maybe criticize it.

“Oh how sunny it is today.” “Man I fucking HATE the sun. Fuck Ra. Shining like an asshole.”

“These street corners are really hard to turn.” “Yeah, probably an oversight by the municipality.”

“I have no idea what this grafitti is supposed to say, or what emotions it’s supposed to convey.” “Maybe it’s their first time.”

tl;dr – if it’s in a public space, the public will apply their standards to it. It’s as simple as that.

It’s not really about how criticism is expressed. It’s about whether it contributes or degrades.

Meaningful criticism is itself creative. It may be very sharp and painful, or it may be gentle, but it adds something to the initial creative effort.

Another kind of criticism is just one person’s quirky opinion. Remember, opinions are like assholes; everyone has one. And on the web we all seem to think we should be displaying ours every chance we get 🙂

And then some criticism is purely for the sake of putting others down, trashing their efforts, insulting them for the fun of it (or maybe to prop up the critic’s own shaky self esteem).

I was wondering how this would resolve without adding to the hate! I was hoping for love and hugs, but sometimes picking up the person and depositing them somewhere they can’t continue to hurt you is a much more realistic option. A very interesting conclusion to a compelling ethical dilemma.

I think this would have ended better if the giant robot just made huge paintings and other works of art. Then people would just ignore the huge blob trying to get attention. They would focus on the cool art until the blob gets bored and withers away. If you fight them, you gain nothing, and you get dirty. Ignoring trolls for me is much better (unless they give you advice you can apply). Anyway, congrats on your first comic! ^^

Trolling is sometimes an invitation to play. Hell, we have a holiday coming up DEDICATED to trolling!

And if you really hate snark, throw out all your stand up comedy albums. Because 99% of comedians are snarky, and the ones that aren’t… aren’t funny.

LOOK LEFT —————————>

You just got trolled. And it didn’t harm you in the slightest.

What we need to get rid of is the Haters. Those whose primary emotion is Hate. Trolls tend to do things for the lulz. Haters do things with sociopathic intent to harm. Haters fuel the negativity because hate is all they know.

Every time a Hater attacks you, they’re announcing that they’re jealous. They can’t do what you can, so they want to make you stop. They can’t make themselves better, and all they know is how to make others worse. Pity the Haters. It robs them of their power. And that irritates them to no end.

Because that is what trolling is…it’s bullying. It’s someone who LIKES lashing out at someone else…making themselves feel bigger, more important; by trying to make their target feel small.

If you cannot make your point without getting snide and nasty, if you cannot critique the work without attacking the creator, or if gleefully attacking the creator is your first impulse, then you are not a critic…

This is the ultimate truth. It’s simple. Quite a few experts on how awful the world is have posted in the conversations over this series. Especially since the subject is art itself (illustration in particular). We’ve even seen that one cliche story trotted out – “How my tough art school teacher weeded out the weak with blistering fire that seared special snowflakes.” All that does is remind us that a lot of art teachers are egotistical bullies. Who create more bullies among the students that survive by emulating the powerful animal in the room.

But no. You don’t have to be a bully to be tough. Some of the toughest people on earth are also some of the most polite. Some of the fiercest are some who say the least. Bullies prefer to convince themselves that they’re -helping- the targets of their bullying. They’re “toughening them up”. Most of the time they’re only accomplishing one of two things: hurting people who could use a hand, or teaching others how to be a new generation of bully.

And really, bullies despise seeing any display of wisdom that isn’t sarcastic, barbed, and cutting. It sets them off faster than anything else. With their own low self-esteem, it’s difficult for them to believe anything in life is sincere (it’s all a trick, people are deluded about their own rotten nature). So bullies lash out at sincerity and calm, and especially confidence that isn’t based on displays of dominance. (Bullies respect power games and domination, it is how they learned to be bullies in the first place.)

Well, not my favorite piece of your work… Actually I didn’t enjoy it aside from your art being beautiful as usual. I’m very much pleased you’re exploring more than just quotes and going into your own thing a little bit but this just wasn’t all that good.
None the less, I’ll continue to visit your site and wish you the best of luck toward your future endeavors

I’m late to the commenting party here, but while we may discuss how effective Gav was at conveying his premise, he is drawing a sharp line between Criticism (discussing and assessing the WORK) verses Trolling (asserting something about the PERSON). He may also be noting a wish for less Drive By Opinion-ating (asserting your overall like or dislike on the WORK).

The distinction is clear: talk about the WORK, and it could be a critique. Talk about the ARTIST (especially in your opening statements), and it’s likely a Troll or a Hater (pretty much the same thing in my book). Dropping a “this sucks!”, while it talks about the work, is unproductive and crass noise. Intent plays a big role here, and that kind of suck bomb is most likely has a troll/hater intent behind it.

I’m not how much Gav cares about any nasty comments he may or may not receive. What he’s expressing is his view that there is a current propensity to have a high percentage of comments be of the ad hominem trolling variety, meant to attack or insult the artist, rather than focussing on the work itself. And that this has a detrimental effect on the world, reducing creativity, fostering timidity. More so, it has an even more detrimental effect on the trollers themselves.

That is what Gav is expressing he’d like to see an end to, for everyone’s sake.

Fab! I’m doing “The Artist Way” program to unblock my creative self. I guess it’s like that Robot that smashes through all the hate and put-downs thrown at us during our life. But Creative Spirit is Stronger. Never, NEVER give up!

I can’t say I would give this comic series a pass. In the interest of genuine constructive criticism, I feel the imagery is less creative than up to Zen Pencils’ higher standards. In an attempt to be bombastic and comic, it’s a little too “straight”. There’s no wink at the reader to let them in on the joke. As such it comes off a bit juvenile.

As well, there is a point to be made about base level “internet trolling”. It can create a noise that obscures and distracts. It lowers the general quality of life for online users. As presented in the comic, again the text and images are a little too simple to adequately convey this. What is really interesting how these flaws have been used by many commentators as an excuse for sarcastic, condescending invective. Essentially, the comic has inadvertently crafted a straw man of itself for those so inclined to burn down. This is always a danger in making a big statement – make it poorly, argue badly for your position, and you help those who oppose it deconstruct it as a weaker form of itself than it should be.

That said, a great deal of the comments here are instructive. There are a lot of “trollish” personalities that go to great lengths to justify their desire to inflict cruelty and indulge themselves in taunting others. Not all of them are inarticulate. Some of the best trolls in the world can turn a phrase and actually do know something. I think we’ve seen a few check in here. Yet for all the bluster, at the end of the day… a troll is a troll. Chaff is chaff. You can proclaim that life sucks, everyone is a jerk, to defend your own addition to the chaff. But it’s still chaff.

While I like your style and admire the effort it probably took to write such a long comic, I found your execution clumsy.
I know how harsh trolls/criticism can be, especially on the internet, but I think your comic lacked the nuance that is found in real life. You made it as though there is no middle ground between hate-spewing trolls and artists, which I think is a dangerously extreme view.

What you might encounter :
– actual hater trolls who like spreading hate
– angry and frustrated people using the language of the trolls to convey how disappointed they are when they expected so much (I saw these on online games’ wikis, you wouldn’t believe the rage that happens when developpers are less than awesome : but it’s out of frustration, because the game *could* be good and is instead going in the wrong direction)
– harsh criticism just to express an opinion : someone just wants to say they didn’t like your work, but don’t have tips on how to do it better (not very helpful, but hey, at least you can judge how many people didn’t like your work)
– constructive criticism, which tells you what was good/bad, or what the person liked/didn’t like, and why.
I believe you only took the first category into consideration, and I felt this made your story shallow.
Your comics are usually more nuanced and subtle, so I was disappointed.

I was also shocked by several things, the first being Miyazaki piloting a mecha… I mean, nature-loving Miyazaki ? In a MECHA ? I thought it didn’t make sense.
Then, writing “art” on the moon. Call me conservative, but I find it extremely offensive to deface the moon like that. She’s now covered in green slime so you could say how art is awesome. I admit that is just a personal gut feeling, but it made me very uncomfortable.

(But by all means, try another original story ! Who knows how it might turn out ?)

Amazing how you sparked a war of kind in your own comments section! But the ironic thing is, regardless of whether the comic was “good” or conveys the “right way” to think about criticism/trolling, you’ve still got all this traffic on your website in the form of a comments war. Why? Because you created something because you wanted to. By all means you’ve won the troll war simply by continuing to create. Inspired props to you.

I’m a big fan of the other stuff, which is why it hurt so much to read this…
You don’t need to destroy negativity. You don’t need to build a giant robot to destroy everything that doesn’t like you, or even those who very expressly and relentlessly don’t like you. You just need to grow up, to deal with it, to take it in your stride. If you do, they can’t win. If they only want to hinder you and hurt you, than taking the time to remove them shows that they did.
But I don’t draw comics, so no one will listen to me 😛 I dunno.

The comic was nice, and it pretty clearly made the distinction between a real critic who gives criticism for the sake of improving the quality of ones work and trolls. Trolls are people who gain a perverse enjoyment of pulling others down.

I also know that setting out to do something different from the norm takes a lot of emotional effort and investment. Trolls do nothing but hit those people on the head as if the task at hand were not difficult enough. If tearing down someones work and efforts is the best thing you can do with your time it may be time to reevaluate your life. I personally pity them, you can practically hear the echos in their empty life when they troll.

Ironically the people most qualified to give criticism in this world are those who are so busy actually doing that they don’t have time to give it.

As my father told me “There will always be cruel people in the world, ignore them.”

There’s nothing objective about criticism. What counts for you as a hacked, shallow, meaningless rip off is perfectly acceptable to someone else, or good, or the best thing since thinly sliced bread. Who’s right? Duh. It’s subjective, stupid.

Teddy R. was right. The critic doesn’t matter. What matters is how the creator feels afterwards – what they get out of it emotionally, or what they feel they’ve said or achieved.

The critic matters only if the entire premise and motivation is to please others or make money. I’d say judging from the output of Zenpencils and some of the things quoted that this isn’t his primary motivation.

Ah but, the critic says, we’re only trying to help him make the best art he can! Well, the comments section is here. Comment away. Criticise it in any manner you wish, but don’t be surprised if obnoxious, angry and negative criticisms are simply ignored. There’s no obligation for anyone to listen.

The few comments about being thin skinned, criticism sensitive artists being “weak” or needing to grow a pair were laughable. Is artistic endeavour some sort of dick waving contest? Am I not allowed to be an artist if I *don’t* have a thick skin? Do we all have to be alpha types, otherwise we’re expelled from the artistic domain?

Again, the presumption is that the artist is there solely to serve the whims of the critics. It’s an attitude of consumption – “we don’t like your product!”

That’s not the fucking point, guys and gals. The product isn’t the be all and end all. We’re not in this shit just to craft perfect widgets for consumption. We’re in it for a rewarding, satisfying, soul nourishing existence – however each of us individually defines that.

Intense, negative critics miss the point. Artists are not in it solely for *you*. We’re not General Motors. It’s telling by some of the comments just how deep and entrenched this attitude of commodification has become.

So, according to this strip the “hatred monster” was destroyed by the “creativity beam”, which I guess is supposed to signify that creativity destroys hatred – unless it wasn’t supposed to mean anything. Similarly this strip is supposed to be a stab at trolls and haters (I know that criticism isn’t necessarily hatred, but this strip specifically talks about trolls and haters). Does it then employ creativity to do so?
Nope. Giant HATRED monster that eats artists is defeated by Famous Artist Hayao Miyazaki, headmaster of the Famous Artsy Quotes University, uncharacteristically piloting a robot (’cause Japan) and destroying the monster with a beam. To then… paint the word “ART” itself on the moon with the remains of the HATRED monster itself.

This looks more like a lame power fantasy than an inspirational artpiece. All it says is “WE’RE SO COOL YOU GUYS, WE COULD TOTALLY KICK THE NASTY PEOPLE’S ASS WITH THE POWER OF OUR AWESOMENESS IF WE REALLY WANTED TO!!!”. Not saying you’re not allowed to do so, but wasn’t the point of these strips to teach a lesson or to be inspirational?

Also some of the stuff passed off as “trolling” was just generic – if exaggerated – criticism. The comment to G.R.R.Martin was something I could have written out of love for his work – and the frustration that sets in during the long years of waiting. The only things that could actually pass as a pure display of nastiness were by the No-Life Nerd Stereotype and the White Guy on Toilet. I’m not gonna say that he made the white guys look worse because of political correctness, I’m just going to imply it in a very unsubtle way.

Allow me to reiterate: I get that the author only wanted to address specifically the people who have fun being nasty and not criticism as a whole.

I was wondering how this would resolve without adding to the hate! I was hoping for love and hugs, but sometimes picking up the person and depositing them somewhere they can’t continue to hurt you is a much more realistic option. A very interesting conclusion to a compelling ethical dilemma.

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Lol this has to be the most salty special snowflake comic ever. Criticism is not trolling, criticism is not hate. You are confused about the two and your comic screams hypocrisy seeing you put Miyazaki as the main character. Real artists are not fucking crybabies who get offended and put down at the slightest bit of criticism or not finding the work good enough.
This comic is not even funny, it’s sad. It’s sad that any people at all actually like this comic and agree with it’s message. By spreading this around you will create a generation of hacks who get full of themselves and their complacency will keep them producing the same shit over and over without further learning or varying in techniques, themes, emotions etc. Scroll through deviantART and you will see dozens to hundreds to thousands of complacent artists who would probably fall into a depression upon not getting a fellatio in every single comment they get on their uploads.
I could complain about your flat coloring, your unoriginal ideas, your extremely annoying habit of taking the quotes you write out of context, your portraying of famous people as some sort of gods when they themselves showed their horrible sides not so rarely (you know, if you actually bothered to research them)…
It’s people like you, who can’t take a bit of criticism, who struggle to improve the most, in the end.

I feel like this series forgets the point of its first strip’s title: “Hatred Breeds Hatred.” Even ignoring other commenters’ valid complaints about the difference between criticism and trolling and assuming this comic is only about the latter, building a giant robot to fight back is exactly what you shouldn’t be doing, it’s taking their hatred and turning it into more hate, just focused in a different direction. Rather than defeating the trolls, it turns into feeding the trolls and does nothing but create more conflict. Unlike the monster in these comics, real internet trolling is powerless unless you let it get to you.