" April 2006 (UTC) 

 ::No offense was intended, and please don't assume poor motives on my part. It's a clear and obvious fact that many people do not believe in magic(k). I don't see that that in itself needs much discussion. To actually debate the reality or otherwise of magic(k) is not necessarily futile, but it requires a great deal of time and a great deal of charitable listening from all parties. The pro-magic(k) camp can either discuss complicated theories at great length, or (and I find this really distasteful) cite examples of ""miraculous"" things they've seen and done. Either way, it will achieve nothing in the face of committed skepticism, but it will make for an extremely large discussion page. Basically, most serious occultists will not go out of their way to convince anyone of the truth of their beliefs, however if you're genuinely interested there are newsgroups where you can enter discussions on the subject. Prepare to devote a lot of time to it.  09:18, 20"