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---
layout: transcript
interviewee: ralph none codikow
rg_number: rg-50.030.0055
pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0055_trs_en.pdf
ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504553
gender: m
birth_date: 1930-04-09
birth_year: 1930.0
place_of_birth: kaunas
country: lithuania
experience_group: survivor
ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none
ghetto: none
camp(s)_encyclopedia: none
camp: none
non_ss_camp: none
region: none
needs_research: none
data_entry: cl
accession: 1990.416.1
revisit: none
tags: transcripts
---
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1">Q: Would you tell me your name please? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3">A: My name is Ralph Codikow. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="5">Q: Where and when were you born? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="7"> A I was born April 9th, 1930, in <span class="populated place">Kovno</span>, <span class="country">Lithuania</span> and lived in <span class="populated place">Panemon</span>, <span class="country">Lithuania</span> all my life until I was 11 years old. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="9">Q: Where is <span class="populated place">Panemon</span> in relation to <span class="populated place">Kovno</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="11">A: <span class="building">Panemon</span> is on the outskirts of <span class="populated place">Kovno</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="13">Q: Ralph, would you tell me about your parents and about your family? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="15">A: Well, we were an average family in <span class="country">Lithuania</span> before the war and...uh...my father, mother and a brother. </sentence><sentence id="16">I had a brother who was 7 years older than I was. </sentence><sentence id="17">And my father was in the ...<span class="building">lumber business</span> and lived there with his father, grandfather that I know oflived in <span class="country">Lithuania</span>. </sentence><sentence id="18">Before that I don't know. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="23">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="24">What was your childhood like growing up? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="27">A: Well, it was a pretty happy childhood. </sentence><sentence id="28">I went to eider when I was about 6 years old, then at 7 I went to <span class="building">Hebrew gymnasium</span> which is a <span class="building">high schoot</span> until about...until I was about 10 years old. </sentence><sentence id="29">And then in 1940... </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="33">Q: Hold it one second. </sentence><sentence id="34">Before we get to 1940, tell me a little bit about...uh...the friends you had, the things you did during the day as a child. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="37">A: Well, it was...it was an average life. </sentence><sentence id="38">We had a...we lived in a nice <span class="populated place">town</span>. </sentence><sentence id="39"><span class="populated place">Panemon</span> was a small <span class="populated place">community</span>. </sentence><sentence id="40">It consisted of one long <span class="dlf">street</span> with a few <span class="dlf">alleys</span>. </sentence><sentence id="41">And it was the <span class="dlf">gateway</span> to which were...were <span class="building">summer homet3</span> B for the people who lived in <span class="populated place">Kovno</span>. </sentence><sentence id="42">They used to come over to spend their weekends in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> and the <span class="env feature">forests</span> where they had built <span class="building">summer homes</span>. </sentence><sentence id="43">Also was real close by and it was beautiful <span class="env feature">beach</span> and we used to spend our weekends there and it was real nice before the war. </sentence><sentence id="44">And then in 1940, when the Russians took over <span class="country">Lithuania</span>..*uh...we didn't have any more <span class="building">Hebrew schools</span> and we had to go to <span class="building">Yiddish schools</span> and that's when we started g ~ learning Yiddish. </sentence><sentence id="45">I think Hebrew was outlawed or something. </sentence><sentence id="46">And I studied there for | year in a different <span class="building">school</span> until the Germans came in. </sentence><sentence id="47">And...well...uh...we could talk a little bit...uh...about that one year. </sentence><sentence id="48">This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="49">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="50"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="65">Q: Ya. </sentence><sentence id="66">Tell us about that. </sentence><sentence id="67">Well, uh my father had to leave his business because uh you couldn't be a businessman under the _--_ Russian regime, and he tried to get a job several times and had difficulties because he didn't belong to any party, and he was not involved in politics. </sentence><sentence id="68">And being...having been in business before the war, it was a little difficult to get a job. </sentence><sentence id="69">So we kind of struggled through that year, but it wasn't too bad. </sentence><sentence id="70">We made it. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="77">And...uh...and then in 41,when the Germans took over, that's when all Hell broke loose, so to speak. </sentence><sentence id="78">Uh...First of all, I remember like it was yesterday. </sentence><sentence id="79">It was on a Sunday morning. </sentence><sentence id="80">And I had sat up until 4:00 in the morning making some names for my...for my...for the uniforms of my basketball team. </sentence><sentence id="81">I was about |4years and I was...at 4:00 in the morning when I was extremely tired I went to <span class="spatial object">bed</span>. </sentence><sentence id="82">And at 6:00 in the morning, I was woken and told that the <span class="country">Germany</span> invaded <span class="country">Russia</span> and they're going to be in our <span class="populated place">town</span> any day, the German army, and we have to leave because that may save our lives. </sentence><sentence id="83">So we had a horse and <span class="spatial object">wagon</span>. </sentence><sentence id="84">My father...uh...got it all together and we packed some of our belongings and took all...took my ...well, my whole family which consisted of my brother, my mother and my father and also my grandfather from my mother's side. </sentence><sentence id="85">And we just started toward <span class="country">Russia</span>. </sentence><sentence id="86">Uh...We...I don't remember exactly how long it took us...a day or so to get to a small <span class="populated place">town</span>. </sentence><sentence id="87">I believe that <span class="populated place">town</span> was where my father was born and I think it was named...I'm not really very sure. </sentence><sentence id="88">And that is when the Germans met us and the <span class="dlf">border</span> was closed, and there was no need to go any further. </sentence><sentence id="89">So we walked into the first abandoned <span class="building">home</span> we found, probably was a <span class="building">Jewish home</span>, other people who ran away, and we decided to stay overnight and see what happens the next day. </sentence><sentence id="90">And in the meantime, I remember...uh...a few hours later, we heard some knocks on the <span class="dlf">doors</span>, vicious knocks...uh...by the Germans and they were looking for Jewish people I believe. </sentence><sentence id="91">They were yelling there were any Jews hiding here and naturally, we admitted that we were Jewish. </sentence><sentence id="92">So I remember they were kind of...a little vulgar and then they asked...uh...what time it was. </sentence><sentence id="93">One incident, and my brother kind of being proud of his Bar Mitzvah watch showed...showed him the watch and told him what time it was. </sentence><sentence id="94">They said, "Well, give me that watch immediately." </sentence><sentence id="95">And my brother kind of resisted, so when the Germans start pulling up his rifle, my mother went over grabbed his watch...grabbed my brother's watch and just handed it over real fast. </sentence><sentence id="96">And this was our first introduction to the German army Then the next day, I believe, we saw that there was no use to hang around. </sentence><sentence id="97">There was no use to stay in that little <span class="populated place">town</span>. </sentence><sentence id="98">We still had our horse, our <span class="spatial object">wagon</span> and some of our belongings and we headed back <span class="building">home</span> back to <span class="populated place">Panemon</span>, through <span class="populated place">Kovno</span>. </sentence><sentence id="99">On the <span class="dlf">road</span>, they had....some Lithuanian army, I believe it was, had set up a place where they intercepted all the refugees who had tried to leave and tried and kept them...stopped all of us and told us to move over to that particular, big huge place it was on the <span class="dlf">road</span>. </sentence><sentence id="100">And they just kept us there for no reason at all. </sentence><sentence id="101">We...we spent a few nights there I believe outside on the <span class="env feature">ground</span>, <span class="env feature">sky</span>. </sentence><sentence id="102">It wasn't too bad. </sentence><sentence id="103">It wasn't cold...cold. </sentence><sentence id="104">It was summertime. </sentence><sentence id="105">And no...no one knew what the future's going to bring. </sentence><sentence id="106">But after that I remember...1 believe that they took us to the Seventh or drove us to the Seventh the whole family. </sentence><sentence id="107">Exactly I don't remember how it happened, but I remember that our next stop was the <span class="building">Seventh Fort</span> in <span class="country">Lithuanian</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="139">Q: Tell us about the <span class="building">Seventh Fort</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="141"> This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="142">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="143"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="144">A: Well, the <span class="dlf">Seventh port</span> was, I believe, an <span class="building">army base</span> before the war. </sentence><sentence id="145">It may have been some kind of a <span class="dlf">military defense area</span> or something like that, but it was pretty green...pretty and they separated immediately the men and the women. </sentence><sentence id="146">Uh...I remember that my brother was 7 years older than I was, and when my grandfather went with my father on my one side, and my mother and I...they took us in another <span class="region">area</span> of the <span class="building">Seventh Fort</span>. </sentence><sentence id="147">I was 11 years old at that time. </sentence><sentence id="148">And we spent...and we spent...the exact amount of days...I don't remember how many days we spent there, but I...1 remember that right before they took us to the <span class="building">Ninth Fort</span>, and the <span class="building">Ninth Fort</span> was a similar place as the <span class="building">Seventh Fort</span> in <span class="country">Lithuania</span>, they had given them an order to some of the younger...uh...younger people who were with the meant to...to go to the women's side, and I...someone told you...that I think the order was that all the children up to about 15 or 16 could go to the women's side and my brother tried to go over. </sentence><sentence id="149">I don't know, he probably thought maybe it is safer and my father may have told him to do 60.And...uh...they didn't let him through because they said he looked older. </sentence><sentence id="150">Actually, he was 18. </sentence><sentence id="151">And he looked older, and they didn't let him in...let him go to...to...uh...his mother. </sentence><sentence id="152">And...and right after that we heard and knew that everyone was shot over there. </sentence><sentence id="153">All the men were shot, but my father was not there. </sentence><sentence id="154">This is another long story. </sentence><sentence id="155">My father was a volunteer in the Lithuanian army. </sentence><sentence id="156">I believe when <span class="country">Lithuania</span> in 1916 or something like that, he volunteered in the Lithuanian army to defend the...the <span class="country">country</span>. </sentence><sentence id="157">And while <span class="country">Lithuania</span> was independent between 1916 and I believe1940, these volunteers took a in certain prominent Close Lithuanian life. </sentence><sentence id="158">They were ...and they were honored many times. </sentence><sentence id="159">My father had medals of it, and we were pretty proud of it. </sentence><sentence id="160">Uh...So before they told all the youngsters or after to go to another side, to the women's side, they also announced that everyone who was...they called themselves and those are volunteers. </sentence><sentence id="161">Every man who was a volunteer in the Lithuanian army to present themselves to the Lithuanian...uh., </sentence><sentence id="162">soldiers who probably did the massacre afterwards, and that they would take them out of there. </sentence><sentence id="163">And indeed, they did. </sentence><sentence id="164">They took them to a different place, which was called the...the <span class="building">Yellow Prison</span>. </sentence><sentence id="165">They called it the <span class="building">Yellow Prison</span> in <span class="populated place">Kovno</span>. </sentence><sentence id="166">And I know that my father was there. </sentence><sentence id="167">So at that time my father was not shot. </sentence><sentence id="168">It was only my brother and my grandfather. </sentence><sentence id="169">Then the...and....uh...my father was...uh...in that <span class="building">prison</span> I remember. </sentence><sentence id="170">And later on when we were released from the <span class="populated place">Ninth Fort</span>, after being there...uh...and..-uh...my father came <span class="building">home</span> one day and...uh...he...we asked him how he did that. </sentence><sentence id="171">He was in <span class="building">prison</span>. </sentence><sentence id="172">And he said he had promised the guard officers uniform and boots if he would let him go to see his family. </sentence><sentence id="173">He said, "Well, I'll let you go, but you better be back." </sentence><sentence id="174">And my father came to visit us. </sentence><sentence id="175">He spent a few hours with us and my mother begged him, I remember that. </sentence><sentence id="176">She begged him not to go back because it's not going to be there very good place. </sentence><sentence id="177">We knew about that. </sentence><sentence id="178">And...uh...he did go back, and...uh...they were shot over there also. </sentence><sentence id="179">They were shot. </sentence><sentence id="180">We heard all kinds of stories. </sentence><sentence id="181">Who knows why? </sentence><sentence id="182">But, we really don't know why. </sentence><sentence id="183">We really hoped and thought that being...being Xo the volunteers they were and respected before the war, the Lithuanian army who really directed most of these...uh...I don't know how to call it...uh...would...would really let them free, but they didn't. </sentence><sentence id="184">Uh...well, after...after this, we...uh...went to the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="185">They...when the orders came, they told the Jews have to leave their <span class="populated place">towns</span>...their <span class="populated place">towns</span> and <span class="building">homes</span> and belongings. </sentence><sentence id="186">Well, not all the belongings, but...uh...that you couldn't take with you and move to that designated <span class="region">area</span> around <span class="populated place">Kovno</span> which was called the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="187">And my mother and I...we just took the things that we had. </sentence><sentence id="188">Couldn't...tried to exchange our <span class="building">home</span> with This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="189">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="190"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection some Lithuanians, but I guess we just were not successful. </sentence><sentence id="191">Some people did. </sentence><sentence id="192">Some people gave up big <span class="building">mansions</span> for little <span class="building">homes</span>, and...uh...they moved in there, but there was not enough <span class="interior space">room</span> for everyone so they...people who had those <span class="building">homes</span> took in their families, their friends, whoever needed it, and we were sharing. </sentence><sentence id="193">I and my mother, we shared a <span class="interior space">room</span> with a neighbor of ours who...uh...was...we were close before the war and...uh...that lady had also lost her son and her husband, and her daughter, who was my brother's age and I think they were friends...uh...had a <span class="interior space">room</span> that they acquired somehow from some relatives or friends in one of those <span class="building">houses</span>, and they took us in and we...shared one <span class="interior space">room</span>, the four of us. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="246">Q: Can you...can you go back. </sentence><sentence id="247">You had told me before that while your father was in <span class="building">prison</span> your mother had taken his papers and tried to do something? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="250">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="251">Well...well, my mother always cherished papers, a being the, that volunteers...and his medals. </sentence><sentence id="252">And that was...we tell that was a precious thing because most of the...most of our encounter all the misfortunes that we had until then were always caused by Lithuanian soldiers. </sentence><sentence id="253">And we didn't see that many Germans around at the beginning. </sentence><sentence id="254">I'm sure they gave all the orders. </sentence><sentence id="255">They were involved. </sentence><sentence id="256">But I we didn't see them. </sentence><sentence id="257">So we felt...she felt especially that those papers and medals may come in handy someday. </sentence><sentence id="258">She always kept them on her. </sentence><sentence id="259">Uh...Well...there's so much to talk about... </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="270">Q: You had gone ahead and you are in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> now? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="272">A: Yes, I'm in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> now. </sentence><sentence id="273">But...uh...there was another incident that if I may I should back up a little but that's always stuck with me too is when...when the Russians came in, although we were not in great shape financially either, but my father since he was a volunteer and he was in the army, he kind of had respect for some...for the Lithuanian Army...for the Lithuanian army before the war. </sentence><sentence id="274">And he was friendly with some...uh...people in high command. </sentence><sentence id="275">And he find out where we lived there a general who was I think the Chief of Staff of the Lithuanian army and when the Russians came in they sent him to <span class="region">Siberia</span>. </sentence><sentence id="276">And...and he had left his wife and children in our <span class="populated place">town</span>, and my father knew them. </sentence><sentence id="277">And I remember that whenever he could, he used to take some packages over there or even lumber to heat the <span class="building">homes</span> because in <span class="country">Lithuania</span> most of the <span class="building">homes</span> were heated by lumber, good lumber. </sentence><sentence id="278">And he...he was quite friendly with them and tried to help that particular year. </sentence><sentence id="279">And right after the Germans occupied <span class="country">Lithuania</span> right before the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, we were sitting in this <span class="building">lady's house</span>, Mrs. Mudrick was her name, and...uh...just talking about the future in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> and things like that, where we're going to move <span class="building">homes</span> or whatever and I...I looked through the <span class="dlf">window</span>. </sentence><sentence id="280">It, it was about two <span class="building">houses</span> away from ours in <span class="populated place">Panemon</span>, and I looked through the <span class="dlf">window</span> and here was the General walking with his wife and was going back to their <span class="building">home</span> in the...on the... They lived...they had a <span class="building">home</span> in the outskirts of <span class="populated place">Panemon</span>. </sentence><sentence id="281">And I kind of felt a great feeling because I felt this is one man who probably could help release my father from that <span class="building">Yellow prison</span> that he was in. </sentence><sentence id="282">And I pointed her out to my mother, "Look who's walking by here. </sentence><sentence id="283">Why don't you go out and talk to him really quickly. </sentence><sentence id="284">I'm sure he knows us. </sentence><sentence id="285">Especially...she knows us, and maybe they can do something," my mother went out real quick. </sentence><sentence id="286">I was with her and I remember that for a minute they acted like...like...they didn't This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="287">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="288"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection even know us or pretended anyway. </sentence><sentence id="289">And...uh...she told them who we were and they nodded and she begged them to see if they'Il...can do something about releasing my father. </sentence><sentence id="290">But needless to t say, nothing happened. </sentence><sentence id="291">That is one incident that stayed with me. </sentence><sentence id="292">Uh...Alright, I guess now the next thing is the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="316">Q: Tell us again which <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> you were in and how did you get there? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="318">A: Well, from what I remember it was quite simple. </sentence><sentence id="319">We just walked or...or took a <span class="spatial object">bus</span> or something. </sentence><sentence id="320">I really don't remember exactly how we got there. </sentence><sentence id="321">Maybe on a <span class="spatial object">wagon</span>? </sentence><sentence id="322">No, I cannot. </sentence><sentence id="323">I'm not sure. </sentence><sentence id="324">I'm not sure. </sentence><sentence id="325">I know that we were there in 1941, and I was!1 years old with my mother and she had arranged to live in that <span class="interior space">room</span> with Mrs. Widrick and her daughter, Rita. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="334">Q: You are not in <span class="populated place">Kaunas</span>. </sentence><sentence id="335">You are in <span class="populated place">Kovno</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="338">A: Well, <span class="populated place">Kaunas</span> and <span class="populated place">Kovno</span> is the same thing. </sentence><sentence id="339"><span class="populated place">Kaunas</span> is in <span class="country">Lithuania</span>. </sentence><sentence id="340">Uh, well, from the beginning, I remember there was Aktions. </sentence><sentence id="341">They called for 500 people, and they called four thousand people to work, and they called for all kinds of things. </sentence><sentence id="342">And some came back, some people didn't come back, but those things did...did not affect me personally because, as I said, you know, being young, you...you don't understand a lot of things. </sentence><sentence id="343">I 12 know...my...my mother used to go to work every day in a <span class="building">brigade</span>. </sentence><sentence id="344">I don't remember exactly what she was doing and, but then we tried...we tried our best to survive. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="352">Q: Did you see any of the roundups? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="354">A: Uh...Not, not exactly. </sentence><sentence id="355">I seen a lot of roundups. </sentence><sentence id="356">Iseena _lot of brigades going in and out, but...uh...there weren't...I could not distinguish between the ones who went and came back and the ones who went and didn't come back. </sentence><sentence id="357">Uh I was a go-for when I was about 12, 13 years old, I became a go-for for the administration in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>.. running around with papers, back and forth to <span class="building">offices</span>...And...uh...I thought maybe...I really don't remember what I was thinking. </sentence><sentence id="358">I...1 was just doing what I was told to do, After...and...and that's it. </sentence><sentence id="359">When I was about 14 I believe, I started to work in a...in a <span class="building">clay factory</span> where weQ 5 * 2 used to manufacture pottery, clay...out of clay. </sentence><sentence id="360">And that <span class="building">factory</span> was run by afamily of qenerations of...of pottery makers, and they were very experienced and dida very beautiful job.;5 ft </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="368">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="369">Let's just pause. </sentence><sentence id="370">We need to change tapes. </sentence><sentence id="371">AtZ </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="372">Q: Tell us about your >**ning.- < > Qvlve I t(a ew13 </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="374">A: Well...uh...so, | was doing some running for that place, running around, delivering to the pottery, and also trying __ to help out with the clay, kneading clay and so on and so t forth. </sentence><sentence id="375">A avery important uh part of my life happened in that <span class="building">factory</span>. </sentence><sentence id="376">When I worked there, I'm sure that's whenX the... F st of the people know about the children's aktionSwhich was the selection of the young children whomthey...they picked out from the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> and took to the Ninthb ffi rt and killed them all over there. </sentence><sentence id="377">This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="378">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="379"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection As...as...uh...weheard, I was...the day they hAd that selection, I was at thepottery, at the <span class="building">ceramic factory</span>. </sentence><sentence id="380">And I guess the boss orthe leader of that <span class="building">factory</span> had heard that there's ata selection...they're rounding up all the children. </sentence><sentence id="381">Well, hewas kind of concerned about me...uh...and he said, "Well, wegonna...since they're rounding up children we're going to;:ao put you to work and make you look important. </sentence><sentence id="382">So let's seeif...what we can do about it." </sentence><sentence id="383">I don't know...I don't knowif I understood what was happening, what our destiny was, but he all of a sudden put me next to his old uncle who wast 9 @t the best pottery maker, a real artist, and he put me rightnext to him to knead...knead the clay to prepare the clay ..for him to put on that <span class="spatial object">machine</span> and he was making the <span class="spatial object">pots</span> and <span class="spatial object">vases</span> and things likethat. </sentence><sentence id="384">And I remember two~3 ;6tUkrainian soldiers walked in. </sentence><sentence id="385">They looked around. </sentence><sentence id="386">They didn't see any children untilthey spotted me. </sentence><sentence id="387">And they walked up to me and they said, "How old are you?" </sentence><sentence id="388">And! </sentence><sentence id="389">14 believe I said, "I was about 14." </sentence><sentence id="390">Maybe I was 15.Maybe I was 14." </sentence><sentence id="391">And onesaid to me, "Come with us." </sentence><sentence id="392">Wellt Ir3 ;au didn't move that fast. </sentence><sentence id="393">I just kept on working, and the other one looked at me andsaid, "Aw, let him stay." " </sentence><sentence id="394">Oh no." " </sentence><sentence id="395">Let him go. </sentence><sentence id="396">Let him go. </sentence><sentence id="397">Come on. </sentence><sentence id="398">Come on." </sentence><sentence id="399">AndWz Ssthen the...the boss, Ske name i~ Nicholas, and he intervened 0 and said, "Well, this is a real good worker and we need him here. </sentence><sentence id="400">n And he said, "Okay, let's leave him here. </sentence><sentence id="401"><span class="dlf">wJ</span> And the second one insisted that I stay, and they walked away and _ t__ this is how I remained that timt and uh this was an0 4 60important...uh...event, that <span class="building">clay factory</span>. </sentence><sentence id="402">I think stayed in the <span class="building">clay factory</span> untilthe evacuation to the <span class="populated place">concentration camps</span> in <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="403">But I think before that...beforethe <span class="building">clay factory</span>, we had a very importantO This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="404">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="405"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection I...Ididn't...I didn't know what to a_ think. </sentence><sentence id="406">I thought my mother had lost her sind right there. </sentence><sentence id="407"> 4;rS; oF Il \ tt~i~IL h. To find him on the wrong side since he was, poFtiswbartywas I think a single person. </sentence><sentence id="408">I don't think he had his familyO g a anymore. </sentence><sentence id="409">Well, to shorten it, they took us down about, oh, 50 yards or 100 yards ina different place after we were selected on the right side which was the wrong sideand...uh...they were waiting for more people to come and when they had a certainamount...on that side they usedot:2~ to...they took us into the little <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="410">And that is different...altogetherdifferent story about the little <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="411">Well, as we were standing there and waitingto be taken to the little <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, I spotted that man standingt Mabout 10 yards from us and said to my mother, "Here he is just like you 8aid." </sentence><sentence id="412">And shesays, "Run over to him and tell him to come over and stay with us." </sentence><sentence id="413">And I did. </sentence><sentence id="414">Andhe kind of worked his way to us. </sentence><sentence id="415">My mother asked him, "How did you get over here?"Well, I tried to save a lot of people,O 9'6~ children, and...and the commandant wouldn't even listen to me. </sentence><sentence id="416">He just put us on thewrong side and here we are." </sentence><sentence id="417">And he was just as scared and just as weak as I was. </sentence><sentence id="418">My motherW)S 4t<;<, M# ,r Jke aOlr something. </sentence><sentence id="419">And everytime I woke up I could see her sitting, not sleeping at all. </sentence><sentence id="420">At 6:00 in the morning,5:00,X1~O-D 6:00 in the morning, we heard bang gr~yelling, screaming, insults, dragging people. </sentence><sentence id="421">We ran out and we saw already some...uh...rows of humanity being taken I think in theX] aj) direction of the <span class="building">Ninth Fort</span> which we knew...which <span class="dlf">street</span> led to the <span class="building">Ninth Fort</span>. </sentence><sentence id="422">Andas we were in the <span class="dlf">line</span> in front, almost by the <span class="dlf">gate</span>, my mother decided, she said,"Well, now __ ttr. </sentence><sentence id="423">X h we're going to try to come back." </sentence><sentence id="424">She said, "Ba , give/{ 4t me your papers." </sentence><sentence id="425">And she took the medals and my father's .. paper and she ran up to oneLithuanian officer and told him that...pretended that Mr. Raston was her husband andsaid that he was a political prisoner, that he was a , a volunteer before the war,that he did some good things forXD <span class="country">Lithuania</span><<, and would he help us in...in sending us back to _i8 the big <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="426">Well, one...one said, "Well, don't worry wherever you'regoing you're going to be working. </sentence><sentence id="427">You're...you're just going to change places. </sentence><sentence id="428">Itwon't be/; ;<span class="populated place">UD</span> much different." </sentence><sentence id="429">And she went to another one. </sentence><sentence id="430">Another one wouldn't even listen toher. </sentence><sentence id="431">The third one said I could not do anything about it, until Mr. iesCcn and I kindof gave up and told herl "Let's...let's go where everyone else goes." /; </sentence><sentence id="432">And uh she said, "One more." </sentence><sentence id="433">She saw _ she spotted thislieutenant, Lithuanian lieutenant, and she walked up to himand she kind of with her last breath tried to explain the} 3 " 6M situation. </sentence><sentence id="434">And he said to her, "Look, I cannot do anything about it, but...but theGerman commandant is going to come over in a few minutes and rsached...he took us andhe put us on the <span class="dlf">sidewalk</span>, rather than in the <span class="dlf">streets</span>. </sentence><sentence id="435">And he said, ~You stay here This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="436">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="437"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection andwhen the German commandant comes, we're going to present to him these papers and seewhat he can do} 3 aU3 about it." </sentence><sentence id="438">And that felt very tood at that moment except that about a minute later,some soldier walked up, Lithuanian soldier, and he saw us standing on...on thesidewalk, not where everyone else was standing. </sentence><sentence id="439">And he had, 3: q O a <span class="spatial object">club</span> in his hand and without any question he smacked Mr. ..9*6ten on his ear and split his ear and...uh...my mother on her back, black and bluemarks on her back, and told us to get back in the <span class="dlf">row</span> with all the other people. </sentence><sentence id="440">Atthat time # ffi that officer noticed it and he came over and he said to him, "Look, Itold them to stay here and I want them to stay here 19 and don't touch them." </sentence><sentence id="441">A minute later the German appeared, the Germancommandant. </sentence><sentence id="442">And the way it was situated was like/ 4 ag3 this. </sentence><sentence id="443">The <span class="dlf">gate</span> of the small <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> was the end of one <span class="dlf">street</span>. </sentence><sentence id="444">The whole thinghappened...the way it happened was like a interception from which four or fivestreets...<span class="dlf">streets</span> branched out. </sentence><sentence id="445">The German commandant wastX 40 standing in the middle of the <span class="dlf">interception</span>. </sentence><sentence id="446">The <span class="dlf">gate</span> was on one <span class="dlf">street</span>. </sentence><sentence id="447">About 90degrees of that <span class="dlf">gate</span> was the <span class="dlf">fence</span> of the big <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> from which we had come. </sentence><sentence id="448">No gate.3ust <span class="dlf">barbed wire fence</span> with German guards and the Jewish policea ff n an the other side of it, pretending to watch what'shappening or to guard or whatever they were doing there. </sentence><sentence id="449">a>>a Xs Probably seeing what was happening. </sentence><sentence id="450">knothes German was J b <span class="spatial object">SLt</span> standing there,the lieutenant ran over quickly, took the medal the papers, and walked over to theGerman commandant and he talked to hiw. </sentence><sentence id="451">What he said I don't know, but I heard theGerman yell, "Where are those Jews? </sentence><sentence id="452">Where are those Jews?" </sentence><sentence id="453">So he ran...he came overquickly and got us and...uh...my mother walked up to him quickly and told...ff 40 repeated her story, and he said, "Back in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>." </sentence><sentence id="454">And we could see...before I gotto the <span class="dlf">fence</span>, I could see the 3ewish police...there was no <span class="dlf">entrance</span>, but the Jewishpolice16; 65r who were on the other side tore the <span class="dlf">barbed wire</span> with their hands and their feet,tore apart...made a <span class="dlf">hole</span>, and we just crawled back in. </sentence><sentence id="455">And...uh...that day 10,000people died.sUD One of the nen who vent was a cousin who we really hadn't 20 seen, but we learned afterwards that she was there. </sentence><sentence id="456">And...uh...this is, Iguess, how we survived that one.g q p But...uh...it just worked out exactly the same way my mother ~1,8,~8 zr~ predicted. - </sentence><sentence id="457">~ . </sentence><sentence id="458">Probably one in a million. </sentence><sentence id="459">From what I understand is thatthere may have been a few othersIn C~) who hid in <span class="interior space">attics</span> or some other places that day instead of going to the <span class="building">Ninth Fort</span>,and I think when somebody told me afterwards...when the Jewish police and the firemencame i io check they found some people hidden and later got them out of there. </sentence><sentence id="460">Theybrought over uniforms and they dressed n a>Dthem up as policemen and they just gotthem back in. </sentence><sentence id="461">I FaP S>ftdon't think there was very many, but I know that...uh...thatAo*WenQwe came back, we were the only ones. </sentence><sentence id="462">O </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="558">Q: Where did you go? </sentence><sentence id="559">What happened to you? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="562">A: Well, we went back to our place, to our...where we lived in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> and we continuedthe <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> life and actually the = Ats ktt B e atD children's aktion and...uh...was after...after tWz nd they would go outcontinue living in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> until the evacuation. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="564">Q: And did you see the children? </sentence><sentence id="565">The children aktion that you had described earlier? </sentence><sentence id="566">>} <span class="dlf">D</span> </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="570"> This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="571">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="572"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="573">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="574">And uh the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> kept on shrinking all the time,21 less and less people. </sentence><sentence id="575">And even the <span class="region">area</span> was reduced and I believe in 44 when the Russian army got closer to <span class="country">Lithuania</span>, X for sone reason and just evacuated us and took us to theconcentration camp. </sentence><sentence id="576">But before that happened...uh...peoplewere trying...trying to build some bunkers~ They werecalled <span class="interior space">bunkers</span>, which were hiding pl*ces. </sentence><sentence id="577">They kind of5 <span class="building">C1D</span> expected that some day when the war was over that theGermans would not leave a trace of U8. </sentence><sentence id="578">SO they builtbunkersX And in that ceramic factorA there was a <span class="building">bunker</span>. </sentence><sentence id="579">And actually I...1 forgot to mentionXmy mother was hidden in; q that <span class="interior space">bunker</span> in the <span class="building">ceramic factory</span>. </sentence><sentence id="580">And...uh...from what Iunderstand Gb*Ae was later that...when they evacuated theghetto and some of the people stayed in the <span class="interior space">bunker</span>, they;4 D just put the whole...they just put a fire to the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> andthey burned everything and everyone in there. </sentence><sentence id="581">And I don'tknow if any people survived that day. </sentence><sentence id="582">But I know there wassome people hidden in this <span class="building">bunker</span>. </sentence><sentence id="583">They had it prepareda ~: r real well. </sentence><sentence id="584">They pretended they were building a <span class="spatial object">furnace</span>...afurnace...0 <span class="spatial object">oven</span> for the ceramic because you had to take it utsst <span class="dlf">Dv 15 iZq</span> and burn it. </sentence><sentence id="585">And that was the ; fEceceee 11ve in-the big <span class="interior space">bunker</span>. </sentence><sentence id="586">AndI think I know...1 think I heard that one of my aunts also was in one of those <span class="interior space">bunkers</span> and she disappeared ffi right afterw~>~ </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="601">Q: What was life likeAfor you in the ghetto?22 </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="603">A: Well, it all depends. </sentence><sentence id="604">It all depends. </sentence><sentence id="605">It was different for all people. </sentence><sentence id="606">For me7 Well,when I was working...running a " so around and working, it wasn't that bad. </sentence><sentence id="607">Matteroffact...uh...I even had a chance to play soccer in the te~_ a1 6mb <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="608">I had a <span class="dlf">PtSBt</span>. </sentence><sentence id="609">I had some friends. </sentence><sentence id="610">We formed a soccer team. </sentence><sentence id="611">We played there among ours Qlvesand...uh...and ..uh...as a matter of fact, I had a good friend who was the captain of our team. </sentence><sentence id="612">He was studying at that time...incidently, we had a...I believe an <span class="building">arts school</span> in a o . </sentence><sentence id="613">a O the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="614">And that <span class="building">arts school</span> consisted of about four or five students, one or Mwo \teachers. </sentence><sentence id="615">And...uh...they were0 iC OC c .1 <9 0 (0 0 ~ ag=wsug some veedbeSteatA.training. </sentence><sentence id="616">And one of the friend of ~ine heard that we were studying in this <span class="building">arts school</span> and 1Q 1 qb remember waiting for me and rushing him to get out of <span class="building">school</span> so we could have a little more time to play and...uh...later on this <span class="building">arts school</span> played another big part in my life. </sentence><sentence id="617">Uh...Otherwise I really don't remember too much. </sentence><sentence id="618">It was>;L ~nb just routine every day. </sentence><sentence id="619">I remember one incident when my mother went to work and she took me with...with her because she got a chance to go to <span class="building">home</span> ~ in <span class="populated place">Panemon</span> because the brigade was working there for...I don't know who...theQ; g D military or somebody. </sentence><sentence id="620">And I remembert we went and came to our <span class="populated place">hometown</span> and we walked into the <span class="building">barracks</span>, the <span class="building">military barracks</span> which was situated behind a <span class="building">home</span> across the <span class="dlf">street</span> from our <span class="building">house</span>. </sentence><sentence id="621">And the people across the <span class="dlf">street</span> from ouraa +~ <span class="building">house</span> were <span class="country">Lithuanians</span>, very good friends of ours. </sentence><sentence id="622">They had 23 a <span class="building">restaurant</span> and I remember walking through...uh...I think she had made...Ithink Oer mother ~w walkeda 3 crD through several times and there was a board in the <span class="dlf">fence</span> that was loose, especially made I think for my mother to go over the board and walk through to their <span class="interior space">backyard</span> and into their <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="623">And I remember those people real well. </sentence><sentence id="624">Weofl v se>4 M *v R>> s aUL walked through there and we walked up nnd otood boforc this <span class="building">restaurant</span> and I remember that lady was there, Mrs. , friends before the war. </sentence><sentence id="625">They were very nice to me. </sentence><sentence id="626">Andused to be our friends before the war, her sons, and even made one time at iaSi~ r;*S forme, <span class="building">amsttk</span> , a very small one. </sentence><sentence id="627">It was very cold. </sentence><sentence id="628">And This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="629">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="630"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection 0 they poured water, used toa3 q b freeze them within an hour. </sentence><sentence id="631">And they were good friends of ours. </sentence><sentence id="632">And I remember that they kind of helped us a little bit with some food. </sentence><sentence id="633">I remember when my mother used to come back from that job, I remember we ate pretty good. </sentence><sentence id="634">This was Q amaid sharing this food. </sentence><sentence id="635">| remember during my during my stay in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, in the <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span>, most of thetime I spent thinking about this food more than anythingelse. </sentence><sentence id="636">I don't think I wa6 that scared to die or anythingaW No else, just tried to get some food just to feel better..That...that I remember. </sentence><sentence id="637">Is there anything else. </sentence><sentence id="638">After this... </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="678">Q: You are back in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="679">What happened to you?24ad: 5 t </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="682">A: Well. </sentence><sentence id="683">To me? </sentence><sentence id="684">Nothing that...nothing that I can remember! </sentence><sentence id="685">XtAte cllJ(tm)V~c- "ts <span class="building">MoR Mir</span> . </sentence><sentence id="686">The big aktionQ I believe I ~\; <span class="building">J 13</span> was 12 years old. </sentence><sentence id="687">i~_S*< </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="694">Q: Let's hold it a minute. </sentence><sentence id="695">They need to change tapes. </sentence><sentence id="696">j 3CX5 3m </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="697">Q: Would you tell us about your family< </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="699">A: Prom what I remember was this. </sentence><sentence id="700">There were no <span class="building">schools</span> inthe <span class="building">school</span> in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="701">If there were any, I didn't know --_ about it. </sentence><sentence id="702">Uh...We had some friends as I said who came from...who also were German-Jewish refugees who came to live _ol ; | in <span class="populated place">Panemon</span> and my parents became friends of theirs. </sentence><sentence id="703">And __ they were religious people, very religious people, and...uh...tbere were all the Jewish traditions andso Ol~q O forth. </sentence><sentence id="704">They also made it to the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="705">And remember when I was about 12, 12 and a half, my mother...uh...said that this gentleman...I forgot his name...would teach me the Sa orah and everything that one needs to know to havea Bar o Mitzvah. </sentence><sentence id="706">So every day he used to come over. </sentence><sentence id="707">I used to go over to his place and we would study4*F 1 I don't remember how long, but...uh...but by the time the day of the Bar Mitzvah came, I remember there was a <span class="building">house</span> and there were25D z ; D quite a few people, 10, 20 and I remember the women being in d,~ the back and...uh...they were styihq their Saturday prayerd g ust like in the normal times, and when it came to my paronks I remember that I think I did fairly well with myuL ~< ~. And one thing I can remember that day, I had neverO)"457 seen my mother cry so hard and that day, it was...it was I remember it was impossible to stop her. </sentence><sentence id="708">Although> @; a after...after the Bar Mitzvah, they had a little party. </sentence><sentence id="709">Whoever had anything brought over, and we managed to03 a 3 celebrate. </sentence><sentence id="710">That was one incident I remember clearly. </sentence><sentence id="711">And...uh.*.in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> every day life, work and we heard, of course, all kind of incidents. </sentence><sentence id="712">If I were to go to very day life, there was a hanging in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> that I remembero 3;%5 clearly because...uh...uh...one...they...they claimed they found in fact, one of the inmates with a revolver or a pistol trying to smuggle into the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. & </sentence><sentence id="713">And uh natura}ly the Gestapo apprehended him and uh we were ordered everyone was ordered to appear in one place. </sentence><sentence id="714">And the <span class="spatial object">gallows</span> were all prepared ~ They brought him back. </sentence><sentence id="715">I remember having seen him coming out of the = all beaten up, swollen, hardly recognizable, andI.. <span class="populated place">OQ</span> remember the hanging incident. </sentence><sentence id="716">I This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="717">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="718"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection 1 was maybe 12, 13 watching through a <span class="dlf">window</span> because...uh...they had him $4; a pistol or something. </sentence><sentence id="719">And I believe because of that...the # +O <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> had to sacrifice a lot of people for him because they wanted to punish <span class="country">US</span> and took some innocent people and just 26Wtg t3 did kill them Xe=roTth of that incident. </sentence><sentence id="720">It was not...it was not pleasant. </sentence><sentence id="721">You had to move from <span class="populated place">place</span> to place. </sentence><sentence id="722">As they were shrinking the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, we had to move from place to place. </sentence><sentence id="723">And...uh...tried to do the best...make the best of it. </sentence><sentence id="724">1 am sure that there were a lot of other incidents thatt6 "2 thappened. </sentence><sentence id="725">I'll probably think of them later, but right now I cannot think of them. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="755">Q: What happened then? </sentence><sentence id="756">Do you remember? </sentence><sentence id="757">90 </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="761">A: Well, when...when they evacuated us. </sentence><sentence id="762">We were one of the last ones to be evacuated, to <span class="country">Germany</span>, to the <span class="populated place">concentration camps</span>. </sentence><sentence id="763">They took us in a <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="764">We traveled to <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="765">I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="766">I don't remember how long it was. </sentence><sentence id="767">But I remember coming to <span class="populated place">Stutthof</span> and uh and they separated the women from the men and...uh...kept the women in the <span class="populated place">Stuffhof camp</span> someplace around <span class="populated place">Stutthof</span> and the men they took to <span class="populated place">Landsberg</span>. </sentence><sentence id="768"><span class="populated place">Landsberg</span> was a...was the first stop in t <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="769">That was a <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="770">A small one I believe not far from <span class="populated place">Munich</span> and not far from <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="771">And I remember being separated with my mother already and I justO G qocontinued with the <span class="spatial object">trains</span> to deeper into <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="772">And that __ is the last time I heard of my mother until after the war. </sentence><sentence id="773">I had some people who were with her and told me that she _ died in the last days of the war. </sentence><sentence id="774">The exact details they | O5 CDnever told me, but...uh...probably for some reason probably 27 not to upset me or other things, but the exact way I don't know, but I know she...she died in the last days. </sentence><sentence id="775">And...uh...I came to <span class="populated place">Landsberg</span>, and there were a lot of men, young men and older men. </sentence><sentence id="776">And we stayed there not too long, and they ordered all the children up to 17 years old to q O assemble and...uh...and they took us away. </sentence><sentence id="777">They took us away to...to <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="778">We were about 131 I believe, and we stayed in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> for | week and then they shipped us out to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>, <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="779">And...uh...when we came to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>.... </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="799">Q: Tell us about that ride. </sentence><sentence id="800">Ot </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="803">A: Well, the ride to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="804">We were...we were put in three <span class="spatial object">wagons</span>, three <span class="spatial object">railroad wagons</span>, <span class="spatial object">train wagons</span>, 131 ofusand D we we were stopping someplace. </sentence><sentence id="805">The only thing I really remember from that ride is that we came to a place in a <span class="building">train station</span> where some Russian prisoners were able to walkup to our <span class="spatial object">train</span> and there were some <span class="dlf">port holes</span> in our cattleOg # 513 <span class="spatial object">trains</span> and warned US to see and try to...try to escape if we could because...uh...they said if you are Jewish and you are.. going to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> or <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, that's where they kill them Oq >> D all. </sentence><sentence id="806">So if you have a chance, just run away. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="807">And some of us couldn't . </sentence><sentence id="808">And it...it took quite a while to get there. </sentence><sentence id="809">And one incident I remember was that since we>q # O were all Lithuanian children that none of us spoke Polish so --_28 to try to escape was useless or we wouldn't know to talk or how to talk. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="810">Butin my...in my <span class="spatial object">wagon</span>, there were two boys who did speak Polish, a little or a lot I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="811">I knew they knew something about it. </sentence><sentence id="812">And they told us that a they were going to jump and escape. </sentence><sentence id="813">Now, we hada big _ dilemma because if they escaped and we knew from the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> 1b <span class="building">Qdifone</span> did anything wrong, all of us would be done. </sentence><sentence id="814">So we </sentence></p><p><sentence id="815"> This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="816">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="817"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection </sentence></p><p><sentence id="818"> 2 had a plan made up with them thst they...we would try __ to...there were two older German guards in that <span class="spatial object">train</span>, and = we would try to distract them to try...there were maybe 60 qOofus or 50 of US on that <span class="spatial object">train</span>, and we would try...there was only...the was only made of about we were maybe about 5 or 10 kids involved in that. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="819">And...uh...we said like this, that they're going to go through that <span class="dlf">port hole</span>, _ tnD try to climb down the step of the <span class="spatial object">train</span> and stay there for awhile until maybe the moment that the <span class="spatial object">train</span> slows down a little bit...I believe the <span class="spatial object">train</span> was going about maybe 40 miles an hour, 50 miles an hour, and when the <span class="spatial object">train</span> slow down and maybe in a <span class="region">brushy area</span> where it would be softer...softer to <span class="env feature">land</span>, they would try to jump. </sentence><sentence id="820">And to protect us because out of 50 kids someone had to see that they were jumping out and not to tell the Germans that would have been the end of every one of us. </sentence><sentence id="821">So we decided with them that they're going to jump and in about a couple of hours later, we would pretend...we would be about...and...100 miles away...120 miles away from that <span class="region">area</span>...a couple of hours later, we would pretend that we just saw the kids jump, and we would tell the German guards that here two kids have jumped out and here they are. </sentence><sentence id="822">They're laying right here watching us. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="823">And...uh...maybe that would save us and...uh...in the meantime, Seli thit wl; ;D-, they wouldn't...they wouldn't even look for them that far away and...uh...maybe they would. </sentence><sentence id="824">So we did itZ; q <span class="dlf">D</span> that way. </sentence><sentence id="825">We...we took four...four of us, starting talking to the Germans. </sentence><sentence id="826">They were kind of older and they were not from the <span class="building">SS</span>. </sentence><sentence id="827">They were from the Wehrmacht, so...so you could speak to them once in awhile. </sentence><sentence id="828">They would...I remember someone was talking to them about knives, about other/3 61) things. </sentence><sentence id="829">I don't remember the conversation. </sentence><sentence id="830">About we were watching the <span class="building">homes</span> or the <span class="env feature">greenery</span> while the <span class="spatial object">train</span> was going by. </sentence><sentence id="831">We just talked to them and kept them busy. </sentence><sentence id="832">And all of a sudden, like we said, about two hours later, one kid ran up to us and started to pretend that he's telling me a? </sentence></p><p><sentence id="833">bao secret~ And they got excited and they asked whatts happened. </sentence><sentence id="834">We said, "Go look quick. </sentence><sentence id="835">Quick. </sentence><sentence id="836">Through that <span class="dlf">window</span>, the <span class="dlf">port hole</span>, two kids just jumped out." </sentence><sentence id="837">First, they didn't believe it and then they kinda looked and then3 <span class="region">AO</span> they said, "Well, it took you too long. </sentence><sentence id="838">They were right there." </sentence><sentence id="839">And thirdly, they started to call the officer somehow and made some signs that we should stop the <span class="spatial object">train</span> reco+(tm)blc and to recount them because if they took them to , we/ # 61D were missing. </sentence><sentence id="840">Now that took a little while. </sentence><sentence id="841">And they30stopped the <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="842">They took us all out and they counted us three times, and two were missing. </sentence><sentence id="843">SO they...they asked us,Where did it happened. </sentence><sentence id="844">And they said, "About five minutes# <span class="dlf">dD</span> ago, they all jumped out, and we reported it, we saw it. </sentence><sentence id="845">"And okay, from what I understand they did call the localpolice in that <span class="populated place">town</span>, but that may have had been 10towns...those kids were about 10 <span class="populated place">towns</span> behind us...andthey...they were looking for them. </sentence><sentence id="846">What happened? </sentence><sentence id="847">We don'tknow. </sentence><sentence id="848">But from what I heard lately, I think one...ne of/4 4O them did survive. </sentence><sentence id="849">Someone told me a story that one kid whenthey were transported from...uh...from...uh...we were goingto <span class="populated place">Buchenwald</span> to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> jumped the <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="850">One of theLithuanian kids jumped the <span class="spatial object">train</span>, and he's somewhere iny 5 ; > <span class="country">Israel</span> right now. </sentence><sentence id="851">And I'm trying to see if we can makecontact and meet him. </sentence><sentence id="852">And...uh...that I learned recently ayear...maybe a few months ago. </sentence><sentence id="853">So we then we came toAuschwitz,- <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="854">We were led in. </sentence><sentence id="855">We were kept for3 about 3 days in quarantine, and we didn't know why in <span class="building">abarrack</span> with straw, not even a <span class="spatial object">shower</span>. </sentence><sentence id="856">Very little food. </sentence><sentence id="857">And we could see a lot of concerned inmates, old timers whoused to come in and out, in and out, talk to us, and ask usZ S q t questions. </sentence><sentence id="858">And we found out...out later, the reason westayed there about four days before letting us into thecamps is because this is the first transport of children </sentence></p><p><sentence id="859"> This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="860">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="861"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection </sentence></p><p><sentence id="862"> 3 whowere let into <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> alive. </sentence><sentence id="863">There were some childrenyC CnD before who came with their father or families. </sentence><sentence id="864">WhenI say 31 children, 13, 14, 15. </sentence><sentence id="865">And we were the first...it was late in the war andthings had started to change a little bit. </sentence><sentence id="866">So what happened, we don't really know. </sentence><sentence id="867">But they told us U aO later that...uh...they were very surprised and happy that wewere the first ones let in, and we were in quarantine ini --a...in a <span class="populated place">camp</span> which was called <span class="populated place">A-lager</span>, <span class="populated place">A-lager</span>. </sentence><sentence id="868">WciL~ we /6 <span class="spatial object">qO</span> didn't doanything from...just looked for food. </sentence><sentence id="869">Try see what...uh...we could do.b...That's allwe thought about. </sentence><sentence id="870">There were hot days and cold days and all kinds of days. </sentence><sentence id="871">J7;6t And I remember after quarantiner they took us to a children's <span class="building">barrack</span> in the...theD-Lager, which was a working lager, <span class="populated place">working camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="872">They were a lot of <span class="building">kommandos</span>,people who used to go to work every day and come back. </sentence><sentence id="873">And we had those appells whereyou had to get up early in the morning, stand in that place being counted day andnight, twice a day to make sure that everyone of <span class="country">US</span> was there. </sentence><sentence id="874">And at the beginningl didn't do anything there either. </sentence><sentence id="875">There was notn 4 <span class="dlf">D</span> too much work for us, I believe. </sentence><sentence id="876">But there was one brigade that used to...that usedto come out of this <span class="building">barrack</span>. </sentence><sentence id="877">And they were some children whopushed...uh...some...they called q K it a <span class="spatial object">roll wagon</span>....it looked like a...like abuggy or like a horse and <span class="spatial object">buggy</span>, without a horse and iVet collected garbage in someplaces in the <span class="populated place">camps</span> and the <span class="building">crematoriums</span> and things like that. </sentence><sentence id="878">That was not a bad jObcause when you u6ed to gol t aUDto some of those places and being a child or young men, you used to meet some womenand older people who used to give 32d.%you some_share withatheir rations or bread or whatever they v had. </sentence><sentence id="879">But...uh...that was hard to 4 ve into until one day, 1%;~ O remember it was pouring rain, mud to your knees, and you hadto go and push that <span class="spatial object">wagon</span>. </sentence><sentence id="880">Well, some of the kids who wereworking there before kind of hid or didn't show up,/ 4 t6D and...uh...half way volunteering and half way being picked Igot into that job. </sentence><sentence id="881">And as I said before, many days thathelped me because people used to hand <span class="populated place">Fe</span> some things, foodand things like to eat, which was the most important thing/ 5 ;O in that time. </sentence><sentence id="882">We stayed there not very long, maybe a fewmonths. </sentence><sentence id="883">The...the <span class="building">crematorium</span> had quiet2 down...quietedD down from what I understand. </sentence><sentence id="884">They...they didn't exterminatepeople in those days as much as they did in the earlier daysuntil one day we woke up and we did see all kind of flamesgoing through those <span class="dlf">chimneys</span> and we knew that's what's goingon. </sentence><sentence id="885">We knew that they were burning people over there, but>> 5 that day they...someone told us...I don't know how therumors started. </sentence><sentence id="886">They had rounded up about 3,000gypsies...gypsies and just took them to the <span class="building">crematorium</span> andjust gassed them and burned them like they did...they did>>D Q O the Jewish people. </sentence><sentence id="887">And that was...uh...kind of scared. _.. </sentence><sentence id="888">Needless to say, also...now it's coming back to me...uh.. Hthose A and D lagers, we were...we were...there were >> ~ QO selections too. </sentence><sentence id="889">I almost forgot about those.9e day we 4 _ were on the <span class="building">appellSplaNK</span> where we were supposed to stand every morning and evening and th- Ke--an KO ~n~aNt <span class="dlf">KdR- b33___</span> and he looked over. </sentence><sentence id="890">We...I was in a children's <span class="building">barrack</span> anda | ;n he looked us over, and...uh...I think that was before thatGypsy incident and he looked us over. </sentence><sentence id="891">He asked us our ages. </sentence><sentence id="892">And...uh...1 remember I think I was about 14 at that...atthat time, and ...uh...the kid next to me, he asked him hisa I aD age, and he told them 14. </sentence><sentence id="893">THet marked down his number. </sentence><sentence id="894">Uh...I had felt that was not a good sign, so when he walkedup to me, I told him I was 15. </sentence><sentence id="895">I tried to lie about a year. </sentence><sentence id="896"><span class="dlf">D</span> He looked at me twice and just walked by me. </sentence><sentence id="897">Well, thatafternoon they came to pick up all the kids who[*...whosenumber they had written down. </sentence><sentence id="898">I never heard fromthem @_ againg Uh Another incident, also in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="899">Sne dayWa a. n they showed up with a measuring </sentence></p><p><sentence id="900"> This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="901">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="902"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection </sentence></p><p><sentence id="903"> 4 <span class="spatial object">instrument</span>, measuring device 7 likea asquare. </sentence><sentence id="904">And we had to walk under it. </sentence><sentence id="905">And Iremember you never knew whether to be tall is better or tobe short is better or to older or to be younger. </sentence><sentence id="906">You neveraw R O knew. </sentence><sentence id="907">There was a lot of deception, a lot of lies, andconfused us completely. </sentence><sentence id="908">And this I think, also, wasa; Q D instrumental in..in some of us not being as resistant as weshould have been because we were completely lied to,deceived and mishandled and by the time some of us woke up, .. Q. it was almost too late. </sentence><sentence id="909">This <span class="spatial object">measuring device</span> I remember walking through it and I barely touched that bar-SSacross and my number was not taken that da H Some of the shorter =* ones I remember was taken. </sentence><sentence id="910">But you really never knew what S was the right wayX They had you confused completelyg And 34 after that...I believe after <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, we went...they evacuated us or theytook us out to...uh...what they called...we went to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> for one day, and theydid...and then <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>, that was the big concentration;3 %~ <span class="populated place">camp</span> near <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="911">And then they took us to which was called <span class="dlf">farm</span>. </sentence><sentence id="912">And that <span class="dlf">farm</span> wascalled _ <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> again. </sentence><sentence id="913">There were different names. </sentence><sentence id="914">They separated a lot of us, andl wound up in that ofaq~ y <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> where I was very sick. </sentence><sentence id="915">Had pneumonia and stayed in...there was aHungarian-Jewish doctor took care of the little <span class="building">hospital</span>. </sentence><sentence id="916">He had a few <span class="spatial object">bedsand</span>...uh...he took care of me with some medicines. </sentence><sentence id="917">I was there for quitea few X weeks I remember and just barely got better or well by the time they took us to <span class="populated place">Buchenwald</span>. </sentence><sentence id="918">And that was quite aa 4 q O march. </sentence><sentence id="919">Also I...another incident happened. </sentence><sentence id="920">I forgot to tAo94(Otalk about that one...in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> when we got the needles.w _I don't know, 5, 10 of us got the neelles and we were just a G (tlaying in whatthey call a <span class="building">hospital</span> and the main doctor who took care of us was a French-Jewishdoctor. </sentence><sentence id="921">He was extremely kind, understanding and tried to help us. </sentence><sentence id="922">Matter ;ao offact, he saved our lives there. </sentence><sentence id="923">I remember before ..evacuation day, we had to be sick about 21 days in order to be declared notcontagious and...uh...I think that day we; were about 17 days in the <span class="building">hospital</span> and we remember himrunning back and forth trying to doctor all kinds of peoplein charge and what we remember, he signed something or 35 declared us well enough, we were not...we were not contagious anymore. </sentence><sentence id="924">Itwas touch and go until he was ableX 1D to declare us not contagious and...and they were able to evacuate us with everyoneelse. </sentence><sentence id="925">In that of <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> ....(Pause) we were...we were most of us were working atW +C/r on;6 6 Z S the <span class="spatial object">tincv</span> I don't remember. </sentence><sentence id="926">I didn't work at the time. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="927">When I was there, I was sickand I didn't do too much.aL q O And...uh...if not for that Hungarian doctor, I wouldn't have survived there either. </sentence><sentence id="928">Because I must have been well enough to make that long trip to <span class="populated place">Buchenwald</span>. </sentence><sentence id="929">Wewere...we were(b about 6 days I believe and 6 nights. </sentence><sentence id="930">We were walking for many, many, many days...formany hours and I think at night we stopped just for a little sleep a few hours. </sentence><sentence id="931">Andthen I think we were on <span class="spatial object">trains</span>. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="932">They put us on <span class="spatial object">trains</span> right before9D we got to <span class="populated place">Buchenwald</span>. </sentence><sentence id="933">And it was wintertime and it was open <span class="spatial object">wagons</span> and you...wegot...uh...one of my eyes was very infected and...uh...I lived with that throughBuchenwalda N qOmost of the time. </sentence><sentence id="934">Some days it was better, some days it was worse. </sentence><sentence id="935">But I don't thinkthat I had any treatment for that. </sentence><sentence id="936">Uh...In <span class="populated place">Buchenwald</span> we were again in a <span class="building">children'sbarrack</span>, ina S n quarantine for 66. </sentence><sentence id="937">They brought 66 I believe in the back of the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="938">In that <span class="building">barrack</span>,there were a lot of Hungarians, Slovakians, German, Polish Jewish children and someof us, Lithuanians. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="939">And...uh...we didn't do any work because we; 3 were in quarantine. </sentence><sentence id="940">And we...when you were in quarantine, they didn't make you work. </sentence><sentence id="941">Theday...36 </sentence></p><p><sentence id="942"> This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="943">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="944"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection 5 </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="945">Q: Let's wait a little bit. </sentence><sentence id="946">and we're going to change tapes. </sentence></p></dialogue>
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