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---
layout: transcript
interviewee: francis none akos
rg_number: rg-50.030.0006
pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0006_trs_en.pdf
ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504524
gender: m
birth_date: 1922-03-30
birth_year: 1922.0
place_of_birth: budapest
country: hungary
experience_group: survivor
ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none
ghetto: none
camp(s)_encyclopedia: none
camp: none
non_ss_camp: none
region: none
needs_research: none
data_entry: cl
accession: 1990.412.1
revisit: none
tags: transcripts
---
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<body><dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1">FRANCIS AKOS June 18, 1990 </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2">A: Would you tell me your name please. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="4">Q: My name is Francis Akos. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="6">A: Where and when were your born? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="8">Q: I was born in <span class="populated place">Budapest</span>, 1922 -- March 30th, 1922. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="9">Q: Tell me about your parents and your family. </sentence><sentence id="10">Will you, as a child? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="13">A: My father was a salesman, sometimes a traveling salesman. </sentence><sentence id="14">My mother used to play the violin and that's how, how it started that they discovered maybe that I had some musical talent, but by the time I was three and a half years old I had a little violin and I had teacher. </sentence><sentence id="15">And my mother practiced with me until I passed her level. </sentence><sentence id="16">And that was my line of work from there on. </sentence><sentence id="17">I became a violinist and a musician. </sentence><sentence id="18">Went to <span class="building">school</span>, but I also went to the <span class="building">Music Academy</span> and I was sort of "non-child" prodigy, because everybody was afraid of that word, so I didn't have that kind of a push from <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="19">But I grew up as a student of the <span class="building">Academy</span> and music was my <span class="dlf">line</span> all of my life. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="27">Q: Tell us what it was like for a young Jewish child in <span class="populated place">Budapest</span> going to the <span class="building">Music Academy</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="29">A: Well, it was not as frightful as some of the young Jewish people who had to go to the <span class="building">university</span> because the Numerus Clausus, that was called the 10 percent, was very strictly observed in the <span class="building">universities</span>. </sentence><sentence id="30">In the <span class="building">Academy</span> that was kind of equivalent to the <span class="building">universities</span>, we did not have regular 10 percent Numerus Clausus there. </sentence><sentence id="31">But we had problems. </sentence><sentence id="32">And when the Nazis -- the Hungarian Nazis, the Pfeil Kreuzler" -- Nyilasok -- I don't know how to, how to say this in, in English -- When they started, there were bashing. </sentence><sentence id="33">Head bashing and violin breaking on, on some of the Jewish kids" heads and so we felt it. </sentence><sentence id="34">But we could still get to the point that -- I was one of the prize winners at age. </sentence><sentence id="35">I think I was, I was maybe 17, and I won the Remenyi" Prize. </sentence><sentence id="36">That was the <span class="spatial object">violin</span> that was offered to the so-called best student of the fourth grade of the <span class="building">Academy</span>. </sentence><sentence id="37">And they let me win it. </sentence><sentence id="38">In other words, it wasn't like many places where you, you couldn't even participate. </sentence><sentence id="39">But * Arrow crosser (German) ? </sentence><sentence id="40"><span class="building">Ede Remenyi</span> then later, of course, when they started the so-called Jewish laws, according to the Nuremberg Laws, the Hungarian laws were much worse than the, than the Nuremberg Laws and that's well, that's a well known fact, I think, at this point. </sentence><sentence id="41">Everybody knows about that. </sentence><sentence id="42">They were creating more Jews than, than there ever were because second, third, fourth generation. </sentence><sentence id="43">They were starting to go back and if they found one Jew, Jewish great-great-great-grandparent, you suddenly became a Jew. </sentence><sentence id="44">So some of the aristocrats were really surprised when they suddenly became Jewish -- they were not. </sentence><sentence id="45">But in the <span class="building">Academy</span> this also started to bad, to be bad, but by then I was gone because I finished in "41, and by the time "43 came around I don't think there were in Jews at the <span class="building">Academy</span> either. </sentence><sentence id="46">So when, when I finished, I got teachers diploma and artist diploma and I was Concert Master of the <span class="building">Jewish Community Orchestra</span>. </sentence><sentence id="47">We couldn't play anywhere else, but in the <span class="building">community cultural center</span>. </sentence><sentence id="48">And there was some very high class concerts there, and opera and we kept up with, with ourselves and with the music. </sentence><sentence id="49">I do remember there was a concert that I played when Kodaly" came. </sentence><sentence id="50">And Kodaly was a very outspoken anti-Nazi and he waited until everybody was seated and then he came through the <span class="interior space">hall</span> and sat down in the first <span class="interior space">row</span>. </sentence><sentence id="51">And we played Janos Starker and myself played the Kodaly Duo. </sentence><sentence id="52">That's why he came because he knew we were going to do that. </sentence><sentence id="53">So those, those things happened, but basically the trouble was -- the handwriting was on the <span class="dlf">wall</span>. </sentence><sentence id="54">And when we got drafted like anybody else at age 21, the Jewish kids got the shovels and the arm band, the yellow arm band but we had to go through the drilling and we just didn't have any guns. </sentence><sentence id="55">And that's how it, it happened that after having been on the front and pushing <span class="spatial object">carts</span> across the <span class="env feature">Carpathian Mountains</span>, the -- some of us were sent back to <span class="populated place">Budapest</span> to get some clothes, because we were wearing our own clothes and they were in rags by then. </sentence><sentence id="56">So being in <span class="populated place">Budapest</span> October "44 when the big change-over happened, they deported me with many others, November four, I think. </sentence><sentence id="57">November four they started us out in the <span class="building">Synagogue</span> in the <span class="building">Dohany Synagogue</span>, the biggest in <span class="country">Europe</span>. </sentence><sentence id="58">That's where I was Bar Mitzvah by the way when I was 13. </sentence><sentence id="59">Now I was 21 and I -- they collected us there overnight, and then they marched us across the <span class="env feature">Danube</span> and we saw the six <span class="dlf">bridges</span> all in the <span class="env feature">Danube</span> already. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="93">Q: Can you, can you go back a little? </sentence><sentence id="94">Can you tell us -- I'd like to get a sense of what it was like in the <span class="building">synagogue</span> as you were being rounded up. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="97">A: Well, it was just a, a melee because some people were trying to leave -- I mean to, to escape through the <span class="dlf">windows</span>, and outside were the Nazis, the Hungarian Nazis, with the guns. </sentence><sentence id="98">And not just Nazis but military people. </sentence><sentence id="99">And they there --I think they killed a few, and they were just pushing them back until -- we had no idea what they're trying to, you know, do with us because we were just several thousands. </sentence><sentence id="100">I couldn't tell you how many, > Zoltan Kodaly but we were there. </sentence><sentence id="101">And, and nobody knew what's going to happen. </sentence><sentence id="102">And when they started us marching across the, the <span class="env feature">Danube</span>, we still didn't know that before and after they were shooting people into the <span class="env feature">Danube</span> from, from the other side of, of the <span class="dlf">bridge</span>. </sentence><sentence id="103">But the lucky ones arrived in this big -- what, what, what would you call it? </sentence><sentence id="104">Like, like a <span class="building">stadium</span>, but it wasn't a <span class="building">stadium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="105">It was some kind of a <span class="building">factory</span> outdoors. </sentence><sentence id="106">And that's where they collected us first and then they started marching us along the <span class="env feature">Danube</span> all the way to <span class="populated place">Vienna</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="118">Q: Tell us about it. </sentence><sentence id="119">Tell us what the March was like. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="122">A: And some of those people -- there were always some who tried to escape. </sentence><sentence id="123">They got shot. </sentence><sentence id="124">Some got lucky and they did escape. </sentence><sentence id="125">I know one of my friends who -- at that time friend, I don't know what happened to him. </sentence><sentence id="126">He came back to <span class="populated place">Budapest</span> and was in hiding, so when I came back I met him and we were rounded up at the same time. </sentence><sentence id="127">So that forced march I think lost a lot of lives, but those who survived. </sentence><sentence id="128">I don't know how we survived because they certainly didn't give us anything to eat. </sentence><sentence id="129">But everybody had something because you always carried a <span class="spatial object">rucksack</span> with whatever we had because that's all, that's all we had, what was on our back. </sentence><sentence id="130">And it was a well known fact that the Jews arrived in the <span class="populated place">German concentration camp</span> with all the values they had. </sentence><sentence id="131">And that was their -- the Germans great achievement that they could collect all the, all the gold and everything else what this so-called Jews had, whether it was German or Hungarian or whatever. </sentence><sentence id="132">Anyway, we arrived in <span class="populated place">Vienna</span> and I didn't know it was <span class="populated place">Vienna</span> until I saw some German writing. </sentence><sentence id="133">And then they put us in the <span class="spatial object">cattle cars</span> and we arrived in <span class="populated place">Hamburg Neuengamme</span> on the Ilth. </sentence><sentence id="134">So the march was, was, I think, four days and then another week before we got to <span class="populated place">Neuengamme</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="148">Q: Will you tell me about that ride in the <span class="spatial object">cattle cars</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="150">A: That ride in the <span class="spatial object">cattle car</span> is exactly what you...what you heard from everybody else. </sentence><sentence id="151">The dead! </sentence><sentence id="152">The dying! </sentence><sentence id="153">The excrement! </sentence><sentence id="154">The no <span class="env feature">water</span>! </sentence><sentence id="155">The no <span class="env feature">air</span>! </sentence><sentence id="156">That's all true. </sentence><sentence id="157">1 mean that's all true until, you know, some of the survivors can -- could tell about it. </sentence><sentence id="158">But there were plenty who didn't survive that trip. </sentence><sentence id="159">I was together with, with two people who I knew that one of them was a father of a friend of mine who went to <span class="building">school</span> with, I went to <span class="building">school</span> with. </sentence><sentence id="160">And another friend who I got lost -- I mean I got -- when we got to the <span class="populated place">camp</span> which we didn't know what it was, you know, they stopped the <span class="spatial object">cars</span>. </sentence><sentence id="161">They herded us into a <span class="building">building</span> and we had to undress and all that. </sentence><sentence id="162">That's where I lost him. </sentence><sentence id="163">But with the father -- it happened that the father of the other friend -- as it happened, I was, I was together with him in this -- in the <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> block, <span class="dlf">block</span>. </sentence><sentence id="164">What, what you call this -- the <span class="spatial object">Khazen</span>" and he died right in my hands. </sentence><sentence id="165">And when I, when I went back I had, I * cantor (Hebrew) had to tell, tell him that his father died while I was holding him. </sentence><sentence id="166">That was -- the first three weeks were, were pretty gruesome. </sentence><sentence id="167">And then I got lucky and one of these Kapos?who, who were the commanders of these <span class="dlf">blocks</span>, got hold of a violin. </sentence><sentence id="168">For whatever reason, I don't know how it happened. </sentence><sentence id="169">I don't remember. </sentence><sentence id="170">That he knew that I am playing the violin and they were sitting at night when the <span class="spatial object">bombers</span> went by to, to go to bomb <span class="populated place">Berlin</span> and <span class="populated place">Hamburg</span>. </sentence><sentence id="171">While it was blackout, they were singing, singing songs. </sentence><sentence id="172">There were Polish people, Russian people, Germans, Hungarians; so there was a lot of folks, folks" tune singing because they were not only Jews who were in there. </sentence><sentence id="173">So I led a lot of those folk tunes because I was playing the violin when -- while they were singing. </sentence><sentence id="174">That was my, my rescue, you see. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="202">Q: The Kapo had given you....? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="204">A: The Kapo organized the violin. </sentence><sentence id="205">That's the -- organisieren(r) that's the word in German. </sentence><sentence id="206">That he happened to find somewhere or, or paid with cigarettes or whatever for a violin. </sentence><sentence id="207">And I had a violin. </sentence><sentence id="208">I didn't have a-- my own violin. </sentence><sentence id="209">So I had a violin and a bow, and, and I learned these songs and, and I was playing these songs with, with this -- with these people who were, you know, just my <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> comrades basically. </sentence><sentence id="210">Only, you know, there was no -- not real camaraderie because there were Ukrainians who hated the Jews, and Polish people who hated the Jews. </sentence><sentence id="211">We were just in the same <span class="populated place">camp</span>, but not for the same reason. </sentence><sentence id="212">Anyway, this guy who, who, who helped, who actually saved my life, he was no, no criminal and he was no, no anti-Nazi as far as I can tell. </sentence><sentence id="213">He was a barber who, who was doing abortions in the back of his <span class="building">barber shop</span>. </sentence><sentence id="214">And they found him and he became a criminal. </sentence><sentence id="215">So he was in the <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> and being a German, he rose on the <span class="dlf">ladder</span> of, of becoming a Kapo, which means -- what, what does it mean? </sentence><sentence id="216">What did it mean? </sentence><sentence id="217">Kapo? </sentence><sentence id="218">Constant -- he was he leader of this <span class="dlf">block</span> of the -- what would I say? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="234">Q: That's okay. </sentence><sentence id="235">Most people know what a Kapo is. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="238">A: What a Kapo is, is the commander of -- command, commandant of this <span class="dlf">block</span>. </sentence><sentence id="239">So I was helped by, by the <span class="spatial object">violin</span>, but when they evacuated the <span class="populated place">camp</span> no, no violin helped anybody. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="240"> And I got lost. </sentence><sentence id="241">I mean I, I, I was one, one of the others. </sentence><sentence id="242">One of all those people who, who got into <span class="spatial object">cattle cars</span> and, and was transported. </sentence><sentence id="243">We didn't know where to, but then, then they put us on <span class="spatial object">ships</span>. </sentence><sentence id="244">They put us on the -- in the hull of some kind of a <span class="spatial object">cargo ship</span>. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="245">That is very well described in that book. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="246"> deg Forman (colloquial German); term used for inmates appointed by the SS to </sentence></p><p><sentence id="247"> head a labor Kommando of prisoners. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="248"> 6 Organize (German); term used in <span class="populated place">concentration camps</span> for the process of </sentence></p><p><sentence id="249"> acquisition through bartering. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="250">Q: I'd like -- would you just never mind the book right now. </sentence><sentence id="251">What I'd like you to do is describe the book -- the <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="252">A: The description of that, that <span class="spatial object">ship</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="254">Q: The <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="256">A: That <span class="spatial object">ship</span> is -- was just a small <span class="spatial object">cargo ship</span> that had a <span class="dlf">hull</span>, and we climbed down and it was dark. </sentence><sentence id="257">And nobody knew what's going to happen, but once in a while they opened up the light and they threw down a little bread and some, some people had to climb up to, to get a <span class="spatial object">kettle</span> down. </sentence><sentence id="258">And there was some hot water that they called soup and there was no facilities for, for sanitary reasons. </sentence><sentence id="259">Absolutely nothing! </sentence><sentence id="260">And we were in there, I think, for two or three days and, of course, nobody knew how many days. </sentence><sentence id="261">And that was the time when the Swedish Banadot -- Bernadotte", Prince Bernadotte tried to, to get some, some special treatment for the, for the Swedish -- for the Danish police and the Norwegian students who were in the same <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="262">And he did get some agreement I think. </sentence><sentence id="263">Anyway, they were not on this evacuation. </sentence><sentence id="264">They, they were sent somewhere else and then these, these <span class="spatial object">ships</span> -- there were two or three of these -- were sent out to the middle of the <span class="env feature">Litibeck</span>, <span class="env feature">Liibeck Bay</span> and there was this gigantic <span class="spatial object">ship</span> which turned out to be the <span class="spatial object">Cap Arcona</span>. </sentence><sentence id="265">It was the <span class="spatial object">Hamburg South American liner</span>, 37,000 tons <span class="spatial object">luxury ship</span>, <span class="spatial object">luxury ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="266">And they put us up in this <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="267"><span class="building">Cabins</span> -- I was in a <span class="interior space">cabin</span> that had three <span class="spatial object">bunks</span> and I think we had 12 or 14 people in that little <span class="interior space">cabin</span>. </sentence><sentence id="268">And, of course, again very little to eat. </sentence><sentence id="269">And again we didn't know what happens. </sentence><sentence id="270">The rumors -- you know, by then most of the guards were old German soldiers who, who got drafted at the last minute. </sentence><sentence id="271">They ran out of younger people so they got all these old, older people to be guards that they were not SS. </sentence><sentence id="272">The, the commander and the higher officers, they were all SS people. </sentence><sentence id="273">And the rumors through these older German guards was that there is no gold on the <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="274">So if there is no coal on the <span class="spatial object">ship</span>, why did they put us on that <span class="spatial object">ship</span>? </sentence><sentence id="275">So all kinds of rumors right and left until May third came around and at two o'clock -- a little after two -- we heard bombs falling on the <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="276">And the <span class="spatial object">ship</span> started to burn. </sentence><sentence id="277">And panic and -- you know, on, on a big <span class="spatial object">ship</span> like this, there are steps going up from the "<span class="interior space">B" deck</span> to this "A" deck and from the "C" deck to the "<span class="interior space">D" deck</span> and -- I can't describe it because first of all, the guards were, were not no where. </sentence><sentence id="278">And there was a open <span class="dlf">door</span> that you could see the <span class="env feature">sea</span>. </sentence><sentence id="279">And I was on that, I think "C" <span class="spatial object">Deck</span> must have been. </sentence><sentence id="280">So I jumped just like most, most of the others who, who happened to be able to get to that <span class="dlf">door</span>. </sentence><sentence id="281">And I was in the <span class="env feature">water</span>, and the, the <span class="spatial object">ship</span> was burning, and we were trying to get away. </sentence><sentence id="282">Was swimming a little bit, and there was a little <span class="spatial object">ship</span> that must have been tied up to the big <span class="spatial object">ship</span> -- the morning they brought some bread and other food stuff for, for the, the guards I suppose because we never saw that kind of food -- anyway, somebody got this little <span class="spatial object">ship</span> and started to get it away from the, from the burning <span class="dlf">Cap Arcona</span>. </sentence><sentence id="283">And I was one of the lucky ones who got on this little <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="284">And there were hundreds of people in that -- in the <span class="env feature">water</span>. </sentence><sentence id="285">And what happened some people couldn't make it because there was no more <span class="interior space">room</span> on this <span class="spatial object">ship</span>, on this little <span class="spatial object">boat</span>. </sentence><sentence id="286">7 Count Folke Bernadotte And so they were pushed back in the <span class="env feature">water</span>. </sentence><sentence id="287">And then they said on the right side of the <span class="env feature">bay</span>, there was some Hitlerjugend(r) and supposedly there was some sign, sign from the <span class="spatial object">ship</span> going -- saying, "Don't pick up anybody," and they started machine gunning the people in the <span class="env feature">water</span>. </sentence><sentence id="288">And I was lucky, on this little <span class="spatial object">boat</span> we went to the left side of the <span class="env feature">bay</span> and there was a <span class="building">U-Boat Schule</span>" -- now, what is that? </sentence><sentence id="289"><span class="building">Submarine school</span>, <span class="building">submarine school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="290">And we tied up this <span class="spatial object">boat</span> and we were naked and drowning and no shoes and no nothing. </sentence><sentence id="291">Hardly any, any -- you know, maybe some kind of a shirt but -- not even shirt. </sentence><sentence id="292">We didn't have shirts. </sentence><sentence id="293">We had a -- the <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> garb which was the blue and white marking and the numbers and so, who ever had that on you. </sentence><sentence id="294">So we got on <span class="env feature">ground</span>, firm <span class="env feature">ground</span>. </sentence><sentence id="295">We --I don't know who. </sentence><sentence id="296">I was one of them. </sentence><sentence id="297">I don't know who, who the others were. </sentence><sentence id="298">Old, old prisoners from the <span class="populated place">Neuengamme camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="299">And the <span class="spatial object">British tanks</span> were coming down. </sentence><sentence id="300">And one of the first <span class="spatial object">tanks</span> stopped and pulled down the flag, the <span class="spatial object">German Hakenkreuz</span>"". </sentence><sentence id="301">They pulled down the flag and here were this, this people coming out of the <span class="env feature">water</span>, and of course, this was the first troops of the British. </sentence><sentence id="302">They had no idea what's, what's going on. </sentence><sentence id="303">What-- who were these people? </sentence><sentence id="304">I spoke a little English and there were other people, so we, we made it clear to them what, what happened, but we didn't know what happened -- what bombed the <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="305">So until much later until we found out that it was the British who bombed the <span class="spatial object">ships</span> and that was not just our <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="306">There was three <span class="spatial object">ships</span> in the <span class="env feature">Liibeck Bay</span>. </sentence><sentence id="307">And they were all bombed, and there were about 8,000 people who were killed in -- during those last few, few hours of, of the war, because that was May three. </sentence><sentence id="308">At that part of, of <span class="country">Germany</span>, the war ended on May 3rd. </sentence><sentence id="309">The whole war ended on May eighth, so five days later, everything was over. </sentence><sentence id="310">But over here on this you know, the <span class="region">northern part</span>, the idea was that the British didn't know that they there were <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> prisoners on these <span class="spatial object">ships</span> and since <span class="country">Germany</span> was always going to try to, to win the war, they were still trying to, to push, push troops up north through <span class="country">Denmark</span>, etceteras, so they figured there are <span class="spatial object">ships</span> going -- this troops whatever, so they just bombed the <span class="spatial object">ships</span>. </sentence><sentence id="311">In spite of supposedly, because of the Bernadotte mission, they were supposedly informed that there are <span class="spatial object">ships</span> with prisoners, <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> prisoners, in the <span class="env feature">Bay of Liibeck</span>. </sentence><sentence id="312">Now, whether this got screwed up somewhere and, and the right people didn't get the, the message, you can't tell. </sentence><sentence id="313">But 40 years later, in 1985, a serialized book appeared in <span class="building">Stern magazine</span>. </sentence><sentence id="314">And that was a very researched long article and at that time a friend of mine sent me a clipping from <span class="building">The London Times</span>. </sentence><sentence id="315">The pilots of this bombing raid 40 years earlier now they found out from this Stern magazine article that they bombed <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> prisoners and they caused 8,000 of them to be killed at the last 8 Hitler Youth (German) <span class="building">deg school</span> (German) 1deg Swastika (German) minute of the war. </sentence><sentence id="316">They did not know it for 40 years who they were bombing on May third, 1945. </sentence><sentence id="317">And since then, of course, there are books written about, about -- No. </sentence><sentence id="318">German -- a German book that is written, a well documented, with all kinds of documents in the book, that describes everything what happened. </sentence><sentence id="319">And I don't think that too many people know -- English speaking people, know about what happened to the prisoners of <span class="populated place">Neuengamme</span>, because the camp <span class="populated place">Neuengamme</span> was outside of <span class="populated place">Hamburg</span>. </sentence><sentence id="320">And the lives of, of people who survived in that <span class="populated place">camp</span> until April 20, most of them were extinguished on May third by the British by mistake. </sentence><sentence id="321">So that's, that's the story of -- that's the short story of the <span class="building">Cap Arcona</span>. </sentence><sentence id="322">That was a, a fantastic <span class="spatial object">luxury ship</span> as, as we found out afterwards. </sentence><sentence id="323">It used to be. </sentence><sentence id="324">Now the <span class="spatial object">ship</span> got burned out. </sentence><sentence id="325">In the <span class="dlf">hull</span>, of course, there were thousands of dead. </sentence><sentence id="326">It was half as wide as the depths of the <span class="env feature">water</span>, so the <span class="spatial object">hull</span> -- half of the <span class="spatial object">hull</span> was sticking out there until, I think, eight or 10 years later that they -- I don't know on what basis and who -- the Germans, of course, took it away. </sentence><sentence id="327">But all those who died in there stayed in it. </sentence><sentence id="328">There was no way of, of getting the dead out. </sentence><sentence id="329">But there were some washed ashore while I was still in this little <span class="populated place">village</span> two days later. </sentence><sentence id="330">The British gave us clothes. </sentence><sentence id="331">The British came with, with us and made, made the Germans open their, their <span class="building">houses</span> to, to give us food, give us clothes and I remember I, I went into a, a <span class="building">home</span> of, of -- I think he was either a <span class="building">butcher</span>, <span class="building">butcher shop</span> or some kind of a <span class="building">food shop</span> -- and the Tommy not the "Tommy," but -- is that what they call it? </sentence><sentence id="332">The Tommy?Yeah -- came with me and he said, "Clothes." </sentence><sentence id="333">He was holding the gun and this guy didn't know what was going on because it was the first time in his life that he saw a British soldier, and the British soldier came with, with a, a guy in wet rags who, who had nothing on. </sentence><sentence id="334">So they gave us clothes and food and two days later the British had an honor, honor guard shooting in the <span class="dlf">air</span> because there was so many coming -- I mean fished out of the <span class="env feature">water</span>, all those, those poor dead people. </sentence><sentence id="335">By then they, of course, knew that these, these were not, not German soldiers, that, that they bombed. </sentence><sentence id="336">So there was some pictures that were taken and I happened to have kept some and in the book. </sentence><sentence id="337">In this <span class="populated place">Cap Arcona</span> book, they, they got reprinted and so that's how, how life went on, starting with nothing. </sentence><sentence id="338">Starting with absolutely, not a document, not, not a identification, not a piece of clothes. </sentence><sentence id="339">That's, that's how we, we started life after, after the war. </sentence><sentence id="340">At least I did and, and the survivors. </sentence><sentence id="341">And the British was -- were very helpful and very trusting, trusting. </sentence><sentence id="342">If I would have said I'm "XYZ" from, from <span class="country">Holland</span> and I don't speak German, they would have had to believe me because I had -- nobody had anything to prove. </sentence><sentence id="343">I told them who I was. </sentence><sentence id="344">I told them where I came from. </sentence><sentence id="345">I told them I want to go to <span class="populated place">Budapest</span>, and they, they believed me. </sentence><sentence id="346">And they, they wrote out documents to that effect because there was no other way to, to, to prove anything. </sentence><sentence id="347">So we did not know much what was going on. </sentence><sentence id="348">I was lucky because I spoke a little English so I got, I got a job in the <span class="building">British Officers" Mess</span>. </sentence><sentence id="349">I played their tunes, now. </sentence><sentence id="350">Now I started to learn English tunes, because they -- you know, they -- the war was getting to be over. </sentence><sentence id="351">For them, it was over. </sentence><sentence id="352">And I remember we were sitting -- not sitting, standing, because they were playing the, the "God Save the King," and the King was announcing that the war is over and on the radio in <span class="populated place">Ltibeck</span>, the <span class="building">Officers" Mess</span>, it was May eighth when the war was declared finished. </sentence><sentence id="353">And they really got drunk. </sentence><sentence id="354">I think I got drunk too. </sentence><sentence id="355">It was very interesting because I had no idea what happened at <span class="building">home</span>, what happened with my parents, and what happened with whoever was left at <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="356">And I thought, you know, you can, you can just maybe get some connection, the British soldiers, British officers. </sentence><sentence id="357">Nothing! </sentence><sentence id="358">They couldn't, the <span class="building">UNRRA</span>, <span class="building">U-N-R-R-A</span>, was not in existence yet. </sentence><sentence id="359">The <span class="building">Red Cross</span> was, was doing as much as they could. </sentence><sentence id="360">But I had an uncle living in <span class="country">Turkey</span> during the war, and I remembered his address. </sentence><sentence id="361">So I wrote this postcard and one of the British officers took it back <span class="building">home</span> to mail it. </sentence><sentence id="362">And he did get it. </sentence><sentence id="363">After a long time I found out that he did get it, and then he tried to contact my parents to tell them that I'm alive. </sentence><sentence id="364">And I don't remember exactly whether, whether he succeeded in contacting them or not. </sentence><sentence id="365">But it took me till, till September to get back <span class="building">home</span> because the French sent their, their special <span class="spatial object">buses</span> for the French people, and the Dutch did. </sentence><sentence id="366">| And, and I happened to be lucky enough to, to get I had a few friends who -- Czech friends, and I got on a <span class="spatial object">Czech transport</span> and got back to <span class="populated place">Prague</span>. </sentence><sentence id="367">And then from <span class="populated place">Prague</span> I went on some kind of a <span class="spatial object">cattle car</span> again, but on -- that was my own will that I wanted to get back. </sentence><sentence id="368">And there was, of course, no, no luxury transporting from <span class="populated place">Prague</span> to <span class="populated place">Budapest</span>, but I did get back in, in September. </sentence><sentence id="369">It was a long time after the so-called liberation. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="488">Q: What did you find when you got back? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="490">A: I did find my, my mother and my father. </sentence><sentence id="491">They were both there. </sentence><sentence id="492">And a pretty, pretty badly ruined <span class="populated place">Budapest</span> that I, that I didn't expect to see. </sentence><sentence id="493">But I saw the, the <span class="dlf">bridges</span> on the way to <span class="populated place">Vienna</span> that they, they -- the Germans -- what do you call it? </sentence><sentence id="494">They didn't bomb it. </sentence><sentence id="495">They, they just blasted it -- blasted them into the <span class="env feature">Danube</span> so there shouldn't be any connection between <span class="populated place">Buda</span> and <span class="populated place">Pest</span>. </sentence><sentence id="496">That's the way they wanted to stop the Russians from coming -- from occupying <span class="country">Hungary</span>. </sentence><sentence id="497">It was, well, nightmarish -- a little light weight word. </sentence><sentence id="498">I didn't, didn't collect these thoughts for, for a long time you know. </sentence><sentence id="499">I, I was one of those happy survivors who, who got over it, and I, I was lucky nothing to happened to me, to my hands and I could go back, start to play again. </sentence><sentence id="500">And I was happy that I survived and didn't give it too much tragic thoughts, but when you start talking about it, you remember all kinds of tragic circumstances. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="512">Q: When and how did you come to the <span class="country">United States</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="514">A: Well, I, I was -- after <span class="populated place">Budapest</span> I was in Guteborg(ph). </sentence><sentence id="515">I was Concertmaster there. </sentence><sentence id="516">Then I went to <span class="populated place">Berlin</span>. </sentence><sentence id="517">That was my rehabilitation. </sentence><sentence id="518">I considered it my rehabilitation. </sentence><sentence id="519">I was Concertmaster of the <span class="building">Stidtische Opera</span>"! -- </sentence><sentence id="520">the municipal opera from "50 to "54. </sentence><sentence id="521">And in the meantime I -- my application to come to the <span class="country">United States</span> was, was being processed very slowly because the quotas were filled and filled and filled. </sentence><sentence id="522">And in "54, I got my, my permit -- my quota and I had some very good friends in, in <span class="populated place">Berlin</span> -- an American radio and the American newspaper and so I had a friend who, who was vouching for me, but you know, you had to have a sponsor. </sentence><sentence id="523">But basically I got my, my permit and I came in "54. </sentence><sentence id="524">And that's how it all started in the <span class="country">States</span>. </sentence><sentence id="525">A new life! </sentence><sentence id="526">But from "45 to "54, there were, there were several new lives being started. </sentence><sentence id="527">Yeah. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="542">Q: Can you go back a little bit? </sentence><sentence id="543">I'd like to go back to the war and I'd like to go back to 1942, "43. </sentence><sentence id="544">The war had started. </sentence><sentence id="545">In "42, you were in a <span class="populated place">work camp</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="550">A: Yeah. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="552">Q: And by "43, things had begun to change. </sentence><sentence id="553">Were you still in a <span class="populated place">work camp</span> or had you come into <span class="populated place">Budapest</span> by that point? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="556">A: No, no, no. </sentence><sentence id="557">I was, I was still in <span class="populated place">Budapest</span>. </sentence><sentence id="558">Forty-one, "42 I was playing in the, in the <span class="spatial object">orchestra</span> and solos and stuff like that in the <span class="populated place">Jewish community</span>. </sentence><sentence id="559">I got drafted in "43 and with between "43, fall of 43 and fall of "44 I was in this in the army -- the Hungarian army with the, with the shovel. </sentence><sentence id="560">That was the work. </sentence><sentence id="561">That was the, the forced labor, you would, you would call, I think. </sentence><sentence id="562">That's, that's what it was because we had to work with a <span class="spatial object">shovel</span>. </sentence><sentence id="563">And we got, we got plenty of not just bad language, but bad hits, too, on, on the neck and the back of the neck. </sentence><sentence id="564">That hurts. </sentence><sentence id="565">You know, when that peasant boy from, from some <span class="dlf">farm</span> who has two stars means he's one further up than the one who has only one star. </sentence><sentence id="566">We had no stars, and we were the Jews. </sentence><sentence id="567">We were the "dirty communists," "stinking Jew." </sentence><sentence id="568">So you can imagine how many hits you got on, on the head if, if you didn't look right or if you, you happened to, to start with the left foot in, instead of the right foot. </sentence><sentence id="569">And if the whole -- it looked to them that the whole world hangs on whether these Jews are going to make good soldiers or not, with the <span class="spatial object">shovel</span>. </sentence><sentence id="570">So it was all incongruous. </sentence><sentence id="571">The whole, the whole idea of, of us being, being in the army was absolutely meaningless. </sentence><sentence id="572">It was just a torture. </sentence><sentence id="573">And you know, the, the army discipline meted out with not just with swear words, but with hits and, and kicks and the worst kind of, of punishment for nothing! </sentence><sentence id="574">Because we were not soldiers. </sentence><sentence id="575">We were supposed to be soldiers, but we were not. </sentence><sentence id="576">And, and they had to show -- when we were in the <span class="country">Ukraine</span>, we were out side of the <span class="region">Hungarian territories</span> fighting the, the Hungarians and the Germans were the Axis. </sentence><sentence id="577">They were fighting the Russians and we were supposed to be helping. </sentence><sentence id="578">And we were helping aa <span class="building">municipal opera</span> (German) because we had to, otherwise, you got shot. </sentence><sentence id="579">So for helping pushing those <span class="spatial object">carts</span> there were no -- very few <span class="spatial object">cars</span> or <span class="spatial object">trucks</span>. </sentence><sentence id="580">These were horse-drawn big <span class="spatial object">carts</span> that were pulling the gun -- the, the big guns on, on wheels and the, the <span class="env feature">mountain</span> was steep. </sentence><sentence id="581">And either the snow was too deep or the, the <span class="env feature">mud</span> was too deep. </sentence><sentence id="582">So we had to help push. </sentence><sentence id="583">That was our work. </sentence><sentence id="584">That's, that's how we, we were supposed to be, be soldiers. </sentence><sentence id="585">And we got nothing to eat. </sentence><sentence id="586">I mean at that point, we were in the <span class="country">Ukraine</span> when it was summer. </sentence><sentence id="587">We ate what we found on the <span class="dlf">fields</span> that was not harvested. </sentence><sentence id="588">Raw cabbage, and that was delicacy. </sentence><sentence id="589">We found other stuff that wasn't so delicate. </sentence><sentence id="590">Because all we got to eat was a little piece of, of komisz"" bread that they called komisz bread that, that they called komisz bread which, you know in Hungarian means "very, very bad." </sentence><sentence id="591">That's <span class="building">komisz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="592">And soup that has had nothing, nothing in it. </sentence><sentence id="593">And that was -- those were the worst times during the, the <span class="building">retreat</span> because now we had to push the <span class="spatial object">carts</span> the other way because the Russians were pushing. </sentence><sentence id="594">And, and the Germans were coming with their <span class="spatial object">Stuka" planes</span>. </sentence><sentence id="595">I didn't use that word for about 40, 50 years, so I suddenly remember it. </sentence><sentence id="596">And, and then the Russians were coming. </sentence><sentence id="597">And we were in between because we were digging <span class="dlf">ditches</span> on the side of the <span class="dlf">road</span> so that the, the <span class="env feature">water</span> could run down so that we don't have to -- wouldn't have to go through the <span class="env feature">mud</span> that badly. </sentence><sentence id="598">Anyway, it was work for, for animals and we were treated like animals. </sentence><sentence id="599">And that passed too, but quite a few didn't survive it because from dysentery and, and from hunger, they were dying right and left. </sentence><sentence id="600">And these were their own people. </sentence><sentence id="601">These, these were the 21, 22 year old Jewish kids, you know. </sentence><sentence id="602">So that was -- I was one of the lucky ones who got to be sent back to get some clothes because we had just rags by then and -- to collect clothes from the Jewish organizations in <span class="populated place">Budapest</span> -- and then we didn't get back to the, to the troops because we were deported by the, by the Germans. </sentence><sentence id="603">Not really Germans, it was Hungarians who deported us, but we ended up in <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="653">Q: What was <span class="populated place">Budapest</span> like at that point? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="655">A: <span class="populated place">Budapest</span> was -- well, it was not bombed, and it -- there was no, no -- there were no, no street fight yet. </sentence><sentence id="656">So it was just like it was a year earlier when I left. </sentence><sentence id="657">You know, the, the blackouts in the, in the evening, not much food in the <span class="building">stores</span>, but still life was going on fairly normal like under, under the same circumstances, same similar circumstances like a year earlier. </sentence><sentence id="658">There were quite a few people who, who were benefiting by the war but most of the people were just struggling along and, of course they, they did not see too many Jews because the, the, the Jews were either in, in the Swedish -- or no, the <span class="building">Swiss Protectorate buildings</span>. </sentence><sentence id="659">You know, certain <span class="building">buildings</span> -- then <span class="building">Wallenberg</span>"* comes in the picture, sooner or later. </sentence><sentence id="660">Not at that time yet, but still the, the Swedish started to give out these protectorate papers and the Swiss and I don't know -- Portuguese? </sentence><sentence id="661">I think they had some too. </sentence><sentence id="662">But in any case they were not concentrated in the, in the so-called "<span class="populated place">ghetto</span>." </sentence><sentence id="663">That was, that was then designated later. </sentence><sentence id="664">They were still in their <span class="building">buildings</span> but people io vile (Hungarian) "S <span class="spatial object">dive bomber</span> (German) (tm) Raoul Wallenberg were moving from one to the other in case they got this protectorate. </sentence><sentence id="665">So, there was -- I wasn't there, so I don't know exactly what it was -- what, what life was like when I was back there, because I was just be happy to be sitting in, in an <span class="interior space">apartment</span> instead of on the <span class="dlf">field</span> and to be able to, to take a <span class="spatial object">bath</span> in a <span class="spatial object">bath tub</span>. </sentence><sentence id="666">But it didn't last long because two weeks later. </sentence><sentence id="667">You know, we tried to collect the clothes and we tried to get back, and in the meantime the big, big switchover happened and we thought maybe, maybe this is the end. </sentence><sentence id="668">So the end came by being collected and, and deported. </sentence><sentence id="669">And of course that had gone on much earlier and in a much larger -- on a much larger scale in the <span class="country">country</span> when they, when they took all the Jews from, from <span class="region">northern Hungary</span> and from the <span class="country">country</span> and most of them ended up in, in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="670">So, the story of the <span class="dlf">Cap Arcona</span>, I think, is, is very important because it wasn't just a Jewish story. </sentence><sentence id="671">And that's why I'm so surprised -- I was always surprised that nothing was known about it in, in other than the close-by <span class="region">German area</span>. </sentence><sentence id="672">I think this book -- that Cap Arcona book was, was researched and printed in, in <span class="populated place">Hamburg</span> because all this <span class="populated place">Ltibeck</span>, <span class="populated place">Neustadt</span>, <span class="populated place">Hamburg</span>, this, this is the whole <span class="region">area</span> that was connected with, with the <span class="populated place">concentration camps</span> of that <span class="region">area</span>. </sentence><sentence id="673">So at least there is one supposedly I don't know if they built it already, but they were going to have some kind of a <span class="building">museum</span> built in <span class="populated place">Neustadt</span> itself which was the place that was closest to the bombing of the <span class="spatial object">ship</span> in the <span class="env feature">Bay of Ltibeck</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="696">Q: When they took you down to the <span class="spatial object">ship</span>, can you tell us something about the people that were with you as you were being herded into the <span class="spatial object">Cap Arcona</span>. </sentence><sentence id="697">What was it like? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="700">A: It's a very difficult thing to remember because you know when you are being herded you are in the middle of, of a group of people. </sentence><sentence id="701">It was normal -- the regular SS type of, of "Push, push, go, go." </sentence><sentence id="702">The, the words they, they used I, I can't even remember. </sentence><sentence id="703">It wasn't anything special. </sentence><sentence id="704">It was going from -- on the <span class="dlf">plank</span> from one little <span class="spatial object">ship</span> into this big, big <span class="spatial object">ship</span>, one little <span class="spatial object">boat</span> really into the big <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="705">I don't think there was any, any special significance. </sentence><sentence id="706">I, I can't really remember how it was. </sentence><sentence id="707">I remember that we were, you know, distributed into these <span class="building">cabins</span> that, that used to be <span class="spatial object">luxury cabins</span> with three, three <span class="spatial object">beds</span>, but we had 14 people in there so it wasn't so pleasant. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="716">Q: Thank you. </sentence><sentence id="717">Is there anything you want to add? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="720">A: Not at this time. </sentence><sentence id="721">I really have to think. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="724">Q: Okay. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="726">A: Okay? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="727">Q: Okay. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="728">A: Can we rest? </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="730">Q: Fine. </sentence><sentence id="731">Thank you very much. </sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="734">A: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="735">Thank you. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="736"> [Dispaying documents and photographs] </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="737">A: This is the identification card that they gave us after we were -- this is a German identification with a British stamp on it, showing the name and which <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> the person came. </sentence><sentence id="738">At the bottom, you can see "<span class="populated place">Neuengamme</span>" and my number "65437." </sentence><sentence id="739">This is at the <span class="env feature">seashore</span> where they fished out hundreds of dead were fished out and the British are giving an honor guard and honorary burial to some of these. </sentence><sentence id="740">This is the <span class="dlf">town square</span> in <span class="populated place">Neustadt</span> where we came <span class="dlf">ashore</span> and this is the British going down to the <span class="dlf">seashore</span> to give the Honor Guard. [ </sentence><sentence id="741">Conclusion of interview] </sentence></p></dialogue>
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