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layout: transcript |
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interviewee: erwin (froim) baum |
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rg_number: rg-50.030.0016 |
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pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0016_trs_en.pdf |
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ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504529 |
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gender: m |
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birth_date: 1926-04-15 |
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birth_year: 1926.0 |
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place_of_birth: warsaw |
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country: poland |
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experience_group: survivor |
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ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: płońsk,warsaw |
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ghetto: none |
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camp(s)_encyclopedia: auschwitz,auschwitz-birkenau,stutthoff,dachau |
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camp: monowitz, stuttgart |
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non_ss_camp: none |
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region: none |
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needs_research: none |
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data_entry: cl |
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accession: none |
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revisit: none |
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tags: transcripts |
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<body><dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1">Erwin Baum July 6, 1994 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3">Q: Can you just beginning by stating your name, date of birth, and where you were born, whatever your name was, if at all different at any time? </sentence><sentence id="4">Whatever your name was then? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="7">A: My name is Erwin Baum. </sentence><sentence id="8">I'm born on April 15, 1926 in <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>, <span class="country">Poland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="9">Attended only -- unfortunately four years <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="10">Why I say four years, I couldn't make it to the fifth grade because I was beaten up by the Polish boys too much, so I failed to go to <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="11">I made excuses to stay <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="12">So I failed, and had to go for two years to grade four, and finally I graduated to the fifth grade, which I never made it; that's when the war broke out. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="19">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="20">The other thing I was going to mention to you, is that you don't need to pay attention to the <span class="spatial object">camera</span>. </sentence><sentence id="21">You can just talk to me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="25">A: Okay. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="27">Q: All right. </sentence><sentence id="28">Tell me a little bit about life before the war? </sentence><sentence id="29">What was your family life like? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="33">What was--? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="34">A: I was one of seven children. </sentence><sentence id="35">We lived in one big <span class="interior space">room</span> in <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>, opposite from <span class="building">Army barracks</span>. </sentence><sentence id="36">My father was a tailor, concentrated on making suits, uniforms for the officers and higher ranks. </sentence><sentence id="37">We lived quite comfortably. </sentence><sentence id="38">It was approximately 1933, "34, until my father got sick. </sentence><sentence id="39">And my mother also ran a little <span class="building">candy store</span> up in front. </sentence><sentence id="40">My father got sick and eventually he died at age 48. </sentence><sentence id="41">I don't remember exactly the year, "45. </sentence><sentence id="42">I'm sorry, "35 or "36, and life became very, very, very unbearable, very hard for my mother and seven children to take care of us. </sentence><sentence id="43">We had to leave the <span class="interior space">apartment</span> because we could not afford to pay the rent. </sentence><sentence id="44">So a gentleman by the name of -- I think of <span class="populated place">Grenhole</span> who had a <span class="building">factory</span> and an a and a <span class="building">wood plant</span>, where they cut wood and sold in round packages for heating, and also a <span class="building">factory</span> of making cement blocks for <span class="dlf">sidewalks</span>. </sentence><sentence id="45">And he offered to my mother a <span class="building">shed</span> where she would sell coal and wood by the kilo, and we could have our place to stay. </sentence><sentence id="46">And I remember we were sleeping in that <span class="building">shed</span> with the leaking <span class="dlf">roof</span>, we had to put <span class="spatial object">basins</span> to catch the rain. </sentence><sentence id="47">It was very unbearable. </sentence><sentence id="48">At that time my mother learned somehow that there is in existence an <span class="building">orphanage</span> on <span class="dlf">Krochmalna Street</span>, run by Dr. Janusz Korezak". </sentence><sentence id="49">And when I speak of Janusz Korezak, I " Janusz Korezak (1879-1942), physician, writer, and educator. </sentence><sentence id="50">In 1912 he was appointed director the <span class="building">Jewish orphanage</span> at <span class="dlf">Krochmalna Street</span> in <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>, <span class="country">Poland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="51">Israel Gutman, ed., </sentence><sentence id="52">Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (New Y ork: <span class="building">Macmillan Publishing</span>, 1990), s.v. " </sentence><sentence id="53">Korezak, Janusz." </sentence><sentence id="54"> would gladly give half of my life for him, that kind of a man he was. </sentence><sentence id="55">Mother tried to get somebody to -- made an application, because she never learned how to read and write, none of us could to fill out any papers. </sentence><sentence id="56">Finally, application was made, and very intensive investigation took place, and I was accepted to this <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="57">However, my mother said I'm the youngest child and she would like to keep me around her as long as she can. </sentence><sentence id="58">So my brother Icek, which he calls himself Joseph now, if possible he would go in. </sentence><sentence id="59">So he was accepted to go in full-term, and I went to visit him, and I never wanted to go back. </sentence><sentence id="60">I was always crying when I had to go back <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="61">So they give me permission to be -- they call it "half internat," <span class="building">internat</span>" was <span class="building">orphanage</span>, that mean that I could spend the whole day, have my meals, go to <span class="building">school</span>, but I have to go <span class="building">home</span> to go to sleep. </sentence><sentence id="62">Again, every night I cried when I had to go <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="63">And life was so wonderful; they served five meals a day, and Dr. Korczak and all the supervisors and all the counselors made sure that every child eats properly this. </sentence><sentence id="64">They actually stood over your head and made sure you had your meal, that you feel good, and went to <span class="building">school</span> for -- you see? </sentence><sentence id="65">And we were so respected at <span class="building">school</span>, anybody that was from Korczak's <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="66">Every month we went to a <span class="populated place">summer camp</span>, which actually my brother was entitled to go for two months, but he gave one month to me. </sentence><sentence id="67">He went one month, and I went one month. </sentence><sentence id="68">Children had to be seven years old in the first grade, and they were kept until they were fourteen. </sentence><sentence id="69">When they reach fourteen they received two suits, two pair of shoes, a <span class="interior space">room</span> and a job. </sentence><sentence id="70">Out, somebody else took place. </sentence><sentence id="71">When my brother finished his terms, I was accepted and I went in for the last two years, I think. </sentence><sentence id="72">And my life was just, just, just wonderful there. </sentence><sentence id="73">And then in 1938, "39 or "40, unfortunately the war broke out and everything became like turmoil, with the bombardments of small <span class="populated place">towns</span> and some children started to come into our <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="74">And Dr. Korczak just could not refuse anybody. </sentence><sentence id="75">Before there were only 107 children. </sentence><sentence id="76">There were 51 boys and 66 girls". </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="123">Q: I'm going to stop the you there a minute, because I want to ask you some questions about the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="125">A: Sure. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="127">Q: But let's just go back a little bit before that. </sentence><sentence id="128">You had mentioned that there were children beating you up when you were a young boy? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="131">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="133">Q: Was this because you were Jewish? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="135">A: Only because I was Jewish. </sentence><sentence id="136">Especially when religious classes took place. </sentence><sentence id="137">Jewish children ? </sentence><sentence id="138"><span class="building">Boarding school</span> (Polish). </sentence><sentence id="139">> Later in the interviewee states that there were 56 girls in the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="140">The latter number would appear to be correct, since 66 and 51 do not add up to 107. </sentence><sentence id="141"> had to step out into the <span class="interior space">hallway</span> for that hour. </sentence><sentence id="142">And when the religion class was over, all the boys just walked up and say "You killed Jesus," and start to beat up on us. </sentence><sentence id="143">So since my mother had a <span class="building">candy store</span>, I used to manage, for that day, to have some candies in pocket and bribe them, or a few pennies. </sentence><sentence id="144">But that was not the case always, so I always found an excuse to my mother when there was a <span class="building">religious class</span>, I said I don't feel good, or there was a day off when the teacher is sick. </sentence><sentence id="145">I just didn't want to go to <span class="building">school</span> because I couldn't bear being beaten up all the time. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="159">Q: Now this was way before? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="161">A: Way before the war; way before the war. </sentence><sentence id="162">Till I got into Dr. Korcezak's <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="165">Q: Now, also were -- I mean you lived in an <span class="region">area</span> where there were a lot of gentiles. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="167">A: Um-hum. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="169">Q: Did you have any good friends or nice neighbors who were not Jewish? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="171">A: We had neighbors, but I could not have any Polish friends, they were just -- I think it was the finger is always pointed the at me, "Zyd. </sentence><sentence id="172">Don't play him with him he is a <span class="spatial object">zyd</span>." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="175">Q: And did this change or get worse once the war began? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="177">A: Yes, it got worse when the war began. </sentence><sentence id="178">When the war began, for instance when the German walked into <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span> they came in with <span class="spatial object">trucks</span> and handed out loaves of bread. </sentence><sentence id="179">So right away a <span class="dlf">line</span>; and wherever it was a <span class="dlf">line</span>, I stood in the <span class="dlf">line</span> no matter what the reason was, because I knew I was going to get something. </sentence><sentence id="180">And if the Polish kids they pointed to me and said in German, "This man is a zyd." </sentence><sentence id="181">So I had to run before I got beaten up. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="187">Q: Do you remember the day the war broke out? </sentence><sentence id="188">Do you remember what was happening? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="191">A: The war broke out when we came back from the <span class="populated place">summer camp</span>*. </sentence><sentence id="192">And I remember one of our neighbors came running to my mother and there was headline in the newspaper. " </sentence><sentence id="193">War started." </sentence><sentence id="194">And I say it in Polish; it said ""wojna rozpoczeta," in Polish. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="199">Q: When -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="201">A: A tenant that was friendly with my mother, she lived on the same <span class="interior space">floor</span> where we lived, * September 1, 1939, war is declared when German troops cross over <span class="dlf">Polish frontier</span>. </sentence><sentence id="202">Charles Messenger, The Chronological Atlas of World War Two (<span class="populated place">New York</span>: <span class="building">Macmillan</span>, 1989), 22. </sentence><sentence id="203"> and she was friendly with my mother because my mother was the first one that got -- how you call it when you, you put the <span class="spatial object">laundry</span> through to -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="209">Q: To wring it? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="211">A: To wring it. </sentence><sentence id="212">A salesman came and sold to my mother to pay one zloty a week to him. </sentence><sentence id="213">So this lady borrowed always from my mother. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="217">Q: And this was a non-Jewish? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="219">A: She was non-Jewish, and she was friendly because she could, you know, she was friendly with my mother. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="221">Q: So you found out that the war broke out? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="223">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="225">Q: And what next signs did you see? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="227">A: The reaction was exciting because we didn't know about war. </sentence><sentence id="228">And matter of fact, the feeling of war existed prior to start of the war, like being in the <span class="populated place">camp</span>*; we had a big place where we played in <span class="env feature">sand</span>, building <span class="spatial object">airplanes</span>, building <span class="spatial object">boats</span>, building different things. </sentence><sentence id="229">That summer we told everybody not to play, we are going to play war, like we made Polish Army and German Army. </sentence><sentence id="230">Me and other boy, we had a Polish army, and there was another boy by the name Mojzesz was the German Army. </sentence><sentence id="231">I was called Froim in the <span class="building">orphanage</span>, I was also called Malydeg Icek. </sentence><sentence id="232">Icek is my brother, I'm the small <span class="building">Icek</span>. </sentence><sentence id="233">So there was the army of Moses and the Army of Ariel and Froim -- Ariel was the second general. </sentence><sentence id="234">And we prepared <span class="building">bunkers</span> and all these things. </sentence><sentence id="235">And for bullets we would save chestnuts, and when the war broke out, we start throwing chestnuts. </sentence><sentence id="236">When we got hit three times, had to be carried out, so that was the feeling that naturally <span class="country">Poland</span> lost, and <span class="country">Germany</span> won. </sentence><sentence id="237">So then after the war -- when the war started, naturally our <span class="building">building</span> was one of the first to get burned down because they had announced that <span class="building">Solna number eight</span>, where we have a <span class="interior space">room</span>, is a point of refreshments for soldiers. </sentence><sentence id="238">A little bit later a bomb came down; an <span class="spatial object">airplane</span> was just cruising about, and they couldn't stop the fire or anything, and the <span class="building">building</span> went down. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="251">Q: Where were you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="253">A: We were in the <span class="interior space">apartment</span>, and we ran out when the fire started. </sentence><sentence id="254">We ran out and just > children's <span class="populated place">summer camp</span> sponsored by Korezak's <span class="building">orphanage</span>. ( </sentence><sentence id="255">r) Small (Polish). </sentence><sentence id="256"> crying, you know. </sentence><sentence id="257">We didn't have time to take any <span class="spatial object">bedding</span> or anything because it was full already. </sentence><sentence id="258">And then we marched off to one of my sister, which was married by then, she lived near the <span class="building">airport</span>. </sentence><sentence id="259">We walked over there. </sentence><sentence id="260">And then couple days later, the they marched in the soldiers marched in. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="270">Q: Do you remember what you were thinking, or were you terrified? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="272">A: Not terrified; kind of excited. </sentence><sentence id="273">Because the notion was that Jewish people and the German were getting along because, basically more or less understood the language, could communicate more or less. </sentence><sentence id="274">So we believed it wouldn't be too bad. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="278">Q: So you didn't have much information in terms of what was happening in <span class="country">Germany</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="280">A: Not at all, not at all. </sentence><sentence id="281">Not interested, only to satisfy them, our hunger, because when the war broke out, right away everything was -- all the <span class="building">stores</span> were closed. </sentence><sentence id="282">There was no food available. </sentence><sentence id="283">And even in the <span class="building">orphanage</span>, you know, it became rations like, you know. </sentence><sentence id="284">Food was available; Dr. Korczak saw to it that we get food, but -- it appeared on the <span class="spatial object">blackboard</span>: Two slices of bread, or three slices of bread; as much as we can. </sentence><sentence id="285">And I will never forget, Dr. Korczak used to stand over us in good times. </sentence><sentence id="286">I remember good times and I remember bad times. </sentence><sentence id="287">In the good times he used to go behind the children and make sure they eat. </sentence><sentence id="288">And as a joke, if somebody was holding a piece of bread, he used to pull it out, grab it and put it in his mouth. </sentence><sentence id="289">Now I also remember when it appeared two slices each, also for Dr. Korczak two slices, but he never ate his two slices, he gave to another child. </sentence><sentence id="290">Every day he gave his bread to somebody else. </sentence><sentence id="291">And we stupid children, we took it. </sentence><sentence id="292">We never realize that the man grows thinner and thinner and thinner; that kind of man he was. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="306">Q: So you hadn't heard anything about Kristallnacht or -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="308">A: No. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="310">Q: And the <span class="populated place">Polish community</span>, were they generally supportive of what the -- of the Germans? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="312">A: Oh, yes, they cooperated, and gave them all the information that they want. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="314">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="315">Back to the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="318">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="320">Q: You went in there, you think probably around 1937, "38? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="322">A: "38 and "39, that's for sure. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="323">Q: Tell me a little bit more details about your life in the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="324">How it was organized? </sentence></p><p><sentence id="325">About some of the staff? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="326">A: Well. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="328">Q: If you want I can ask you a specific question. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="330">A: Well, it was Dr. Korczak and there was Stefa Wilczynska", she was the head, and there was Mr. Aleksander Lewin -- whom I met in <span class="country">Poland</span> in 1988 -- and there was Misza Wroblewski who were the staff. </sentence><sentence id="331">Strictly, I mean staff for the good of the child. </sentence><sentence id="332">Just see the child. </sentence><sentence id="333">We got in the morning when the alarm clock rang everybody had to go up, get up. </sentence><sentence id="334">If somebody overslept, they had to go to <span class="spatial object">bed</span> seven o'clock the next day. </sentence><sentence id="335">The <span class="spatial object">beds</span> had to be made. </sentence><sentence id="336">Everybody had to do their chores. </sentence><sentence id="337">Everybody had an assignment. </sentence><sentence id="338">You see, like my assignment was to wipe the <span class="spatial object">tables</span>, prepare the <span class="spatial object">tables</span>. </sentence><sentence id="339">And then we had a chance to change our assignments every second or third month. </sentence><sentence id="340">We had our <span class="building">court</span>. </sentence><sentence id="341">We had a <span class="building">court</span> run by children. </sentence><sentence id="342">It was run by children. </sentence><sentence id="343">If a child did something wrong to another child, you could sue him. </sentence><sentence id="344">And the judges were children. </sentence><sentence id="345">Even Dr. Korczak got sued by one child. </sentence><sentence id="346">He did something he put, I think he put a boy into a bottle of water, just as joke, and the boy didn't like it and he put him to <span class="building">court</span>. </sentence><sentence id="347">And he received paragraph 100. </sentence><sentence id="348">Paragraph 100, it wasn't so terrible, but he didn't act properly. </sentence><sentence id="349">Since then he have the name setka -- hundred. </sentence><sentence id="350">Setka means a hundred in Polish, so his name was setka. </sentence><sentence id="351">If any of Dr. Korezak's is still alive, we ask how they call Dr. Korcezak it was setka. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="374">Q: What did that mean, paragraph 100? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="376">A: Just paragraph 100 means, translated, did not do right. </sentence><sentence id="377">Paragraph 300 was receive for dishonesty. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="380">Q: What were the -- what was a typical punishment for one of these? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="382">A: Well, if you accumulated certain paragraph you were deprived of something. </sentence><sentence id="383">Like a <span class="spatial object">bicycle</span> was given; and every child could ride that one <span class="spatial object">bicycle</span> at a certain time. </sentence><sentence id="384">But if during the year you accumulated 2,000, no <span class="spatial object">bicycle</span>. </sentence><sentence id="385">Okay. </sentence><sentence id="386">There were certain privileges taken away for getting too many paragraphs. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="392">Q: How did you feel about this whole <span class="dlf">system</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="394">A: Nice. </sentence><sentence id="395">It's involved. </sentence><sentence id="396">It's like a -- it's like you were programmed to be good, you wanted to be good, you wanted not to have -- see like one boy went -- everybody had a little <span class="interior space">drawer</span> in a big, big <span class="interior space">cupboard</span> and you kept your things, you know, whether it's a comic book or 7 Stephania Wilczynska (1886-1942), head teacher and co-director of Korezak's <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="397"> some cards or chestnuts, we used to play a lot of chestnuts. </sentence><sentence id="398">And that one boy open up my <span class="spatial object">drawer</span> and steal some chestnuts. </sentence><sentence id="399">And, actually, I sue him and he received a paragraph 300 that was for dishonesty. </sentence><sentence id="400">Now one boy was an invalid. </sentence><sentence id="401">I remember very well his name was Alter (ph). </sentence><sentence id="402">He stole a pair of swimming trunks from somebody. </sentence><sentence id="403">He received paragraph 2,000. </sentence><sentence id="404">You know what that meant? </sentence><sentence id="405">He had to leave the <span class="building">home</span>, dismissed. </sentence><sentence id="406">His mother in no way could afford that boy, but it was given by the <span class="building">court</span>, by the judges and that nothing could be done. </sentence><sentence id="407">He was thrown out of the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="408">So we knew, we children knew you can't mess around, you have to obey. </sentence><sentence id="409">We were put in four categories, category one, two, three and four. </sentence><sentence id="410">Category number one was neat, clean. </sentence><sentence id="411">When we used to go Saturday to visit our parents, one parent our relatives, whoever was there. </sentence><sentence id="412">We received little bag of cookies, and Mrs. Wilczynska stood up front make sure the shoes were shined, hands clean, you could go. </sentence><sentence id="413">Seven o'clock you had to be <span class="building">home</span>, you didn't come <span class="building">home</span> by seven o'clock you didn't go next Saturday. </sentence><sentence id="414">Now category one and two, if somebody -- everything was donation food, rich people. </sentence><sentence id="415">People donated material. </sentence><sentence id="416">If a lot of material came in, category one or two received a new coat or a new suit. </sentence><sentence id="417">Category three and four already, you know, got something was a little bit used. </sentence><sentence id="418">So it gives us always the inspiration, you know, your <span class="spatial object">bed</span> should be made nice, you know, behave nice, clean. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="445">Q: Did the discipline seem strict or it seemed fair? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="447">A: Not strict, not strict at all. </sentence><sentence id="448">I mean the punishment was normal, but you could live with it. </sentence><sentence id="449">You knew, don't do it unless you have a reason. </sentence><sentence id="450">Like, when we were in the <span class="populated place">summer camp</span>, you were allowed twice a month two visitors. </sentence><sentence id="451">Now I remember one time when my brother was there, it was in the first month of the summer, I went, my mother and my sister. </sentence><sentence id="452">So I figured my mothers, my sister were legally to visit my brother, and I, because I was part of it going to half time, I had the right to come. </sentence><sentence id="453">But it wasn't so. </sentence><sentence id="454">One girl was walking around, she saw three people and she wrote it down. </sentence><sentence id="455">Nothing. </sentence><sentence id="456">When my turn was there, I was not allowed any visitors. </sentence><sentence id="457">See, so you just know. </sentence><sentence id="458">The rules were made, you obey them. </sentence><sentence id="459">And everything went fine. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="473">Q: Everybody get along well? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="475">A: Very much so, very much. </sentence><sentence id="476">There were no fights, everybody had a big brother when you step in. </sentence><sentence id="477">You had a big brother, like he took care of you and says if anybody is going to say something wrong to you or do something that you don't like, come and tell me, he told us. </sentence><sentence id="478">As a matter of fact, I had one big brother, his name was Sammy Gogol. </sentence><sentence id="479">This boy was gifted playing the harmonica. </sentence><sentence id="480">Never took a lesson in his life, but he could play anything you want, any opera, anything he could play. </sentence><sentence id="481">So he was my big brother. </sentence><sentence id="482">I enjoyed him very much. </sentence><sentence id="483">When I was -- I mean, we lost contact with each other, you know. </sentence><sentence id="484">I didn't go to the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="485">I walked in, I went out, I went in, I came back, nobody saw me, nobody asked me. </sentence><sentence id="486">I was torn apart. </sentence><sentence id="487">I didn't know whether to stay there or to go to my mother. </sentence><sentence id="488">Since I was a hustler, I used to know how to jump out of the <span class="populated place">ghettos</span>. </sentence><sentence id="489">I was begging for food. </sentence><sentence id="490">So I brought -- sometimes I brought something for the <span class="building">orphanage</span>, and I wanted to see that my mother was -- had something to eat. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="507">Q: This was while you were -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="509">A: While I was in the <span class="building">orphanage</span>, but I was kind of -- I took it upon myself, I saw that there is no more discipline, there is no more control, because instead of 107 children, there were at that time over 200. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="511">Q: How come there was so many? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="513">A: Because Dr. Korcezak could not refuse anybody, you see. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="515">Q: This was the after the occupation? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="517">A: Yeah. </sentence><sentence id="518">The gentleman I gave you the name before, David Kohl, his parents were shot, were killed. </sentence><sentence id="519">And somebody brought him there. </sentence><sentence id="520">How could he refuse him. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="525">Q: This was after <span class="country">Germany</span> had occupied -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="527">A: If after the occupation, this is -- I am speaking this was during the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, all right.(r) </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="529">Q: So you wouldn't living in the <span class="building">orphanage</span> any more? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="531">A: Not on fully basis. </sentence><sentence id="532">When I felt like staying over, I stayed over. </sentence><sentence id="533">If not, nobody knew whether I'm coming or going. </sentence><sentence id="534">But if I brought a little bag with flour or a sack of potatoes or some coal, it was accepted. </sentence><sentence id="535">But they didn't ask me where were you yesterday, because, you know, a lot of people, even a lot of the counselors went to <span class="country">Russia</span>, escaped. </sentence><sentence id="536">Only Dr.Korcezak was there to the very end. </sentence><sentence id="537">So then naturally one morning I -- one night I was out, L used to jump out of the night always where I couldn't be seen. </sentence><sentence id="538">And I came one morning and the <span class="building">house</span> was empty. </sentence><sentence id="539">They were all taken, the children were taken. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="550">Q: At the <span class="building">orphanage</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="552">A: At the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="554">Q: I want to get about that, but let me just ask you a few more questions about the good days at the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="556"> 8 The <span class="populated place">Warsaw ghetto</span> was established on October 2, 1940. </sentence><sentence id="557"><span class="building">Encyclopaedia Judaica Research Foundation</span>, </sentence></p><p><sentence id="558"> Encyclopaedia Judaica (<span class="populated place">Jerusalem</span>: Encyclopaedia Judaica, corrected ed.), </sentence><sentence id="559">s.v. " </sentence><sentence id="560"><span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>." </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="561">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="563">Q: Now, when you all had these jobs, did the girls have different jobs than the boys? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="565">A: No, no, no, they were, they were, they were jobs just to keep the <span class="building">house</span> in order. </sentence><sentence id="566">Like peeling potatoes, helping with the dishes, putting up the cutlery on the <span class="spatial object">tables</span>, taking off, cut the bread, clean the <span class="dlf">windows</span>. </sentence><sentence id="567">Sweep the <span class="interior space">bedrooms</span> or sweep the <span class="interior space">dining room</span>. </sentence><sentence id="568">So it was no difference. </sentence><sentence id="569">Some girls work in the <span class="interior space">sewing room</span>, you know, putting on buttons and mending socks. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="575">Q: They were basically treated the same? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="577">A: Same. </sentence><sentence id="578">Yes, same. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="581">Q: And did you -- what were the people on the staff, the counselors and all of that like? </sentence><sentence id="582">Was there usually a close relationship with them? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="585">A: Not close, they were like -- you know, how shall I say it, like teachers; supervising homework, and if somebody was not good enough, they helped out; they were like <span class="building">summer school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="586">Like if you didn't have very good marks, they didn't force, but they suggested to take classes at the <span class="building">summer school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="587">And they were helping you out, you know, just so you get better. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="591">Q: And was this sort of divided men and women? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="593">A: It was men and women equally. </sentence><sentence id="594">There was a teacher that used to teach us how to sing, there was a <span class="spatial object">piano</span>, whoever wanted to learn <span class="spatial object">piano</span>. </sentence><sentence id="595">I mean... Q. And you went to <span class="building">school</span> outside of it? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="596">A: <span class="building">School</span> was outside, yes. </sentence><sentence id="597">But if there was a parent meeting, one of the counselors from the <span class="building">orphanage</span> went because they wanted to have the full picture of the child, of the behavior, if there was any problem between the teacher and the counselor of the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="600">Q: But there wasn't a certain rule, by some of the women to be surrogate mothers to you, or </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="602">A: No, no, no, no, no. </sentence><sentence id="603">We used to -- we used to address them as "<span class="spatial object">pani</span>" or "pan!" -- </sentence><sentence id="604">means deg Miss/Misses (Polish). " </sentence><sentence id="605">deg Mister (Polish). </sentence><sentence id="606"> Mr. or Mrs. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="613">Q: I know that they also brought some cultural activities? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="615">A: Oh, yes, it was cultural activities, a lot of cultural activities. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="617">Q: What do you remember specifically? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="619">A: Playing <span class="building">theater</span>, I took part, as a matter of fact, in one -- I don't remember, I think Sleeping Beauty, I think Sleeping Beauty. </sentence><sentence id="620">That was my part just to say a word that when the boy slept and said, "oh, what a wonderful dream I had," something like that. </sentence><sentence id="621">And my part was, "Oh, let's wake him up very fast, because he is going to sleep he is going to get cross, and he won't be able to go on the outing -- you know -- on the trip." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="625">Q: Tell me a little bit about Dr. Korczak? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="627">A: Well, it was Dr. Korczak how should I describe him? </sentence><sentence id="628">Was he superman, he was, a king, he was. </sentence><sentence id="629">Just a good, good old grandpa with a face of an angel, with his hands, they were little, like pillows so soft to touch, and so lovable. </sentence><sentence id="630">When he came, he just, he just felt like get inside of him. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="635">Q: How did he do all this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="637">A: He had a habit of -- if a child had a loose tooth, you know, he used to put his hands and somehow, without any pain, got the tooth out and give 50 cents to the child. </sentence><sentence id="638">And he collected all these teeth, and from the teeth of the children he build a little <span class="building">castle</span>. </sentence><sentence id="639">How he did that all the time, is not to comprehend how he found time, but he had time for every child. </sentence><sentence id="640">Somehow he had time for every child. </sentence><sentence id="641">And he loved every child. </sentence><sentence id="642">No matter how, if a child came in from outside, if a desperate mother brought in a child that he was or was not accepted, the child could have been sick, full of pimples or whatever, Dr. Korczak took him in and kiss him right away. </sentence><sentence id="643">Whether he could accept him or could not, because, as I said, before the war was strict, 51 boys, 56 girls. </sentence><sentence id="644">One went out, another one could come in. </sentence><sentence id="645">But there was an <span class="spatial object">application</span>, a list very long. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="655">Q: Now, he was out trying to get money and supplies all the time, but he was -- also you felt he was around a lot too? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="657">A: He was around, he was around a lot. </sentence><sentence id="658">Very, very, very much so. </sentence><sentence id="659">And all the supplies, all the donations were given by rich people before the war. </sentence><sentence id="660">And we produced for them nice place and concert. </sentence><sentence id="661">Like I say, somebody go play the harmonica, and there was another boy Jonas, number nine, he was a terrific violinist player, terrific. </sentence><sentence id="662">You know, we gave concert to this big -- how you say digni...dignitary. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="663">Q: Dignitary? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="664">A: <span class="building">Dignitaries</span>, yes. </sentence><sentence id="665">And naturally they saw, they could see where there money is going. </sentence><sentence id="666">To 107 children very well behaved, you know, nice clean dressed. </sentence><sentence id="667">So they knew in that the money is going for a good purpose. </sentence><sentence id="668">And suddenly, during the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, when there was not much available, he just went and begged you know, to the J oint"". </sentence><sentence id="669">There was this man, the head of the <span class="populated place">Warsaw ghetto</span>, <span class="populated place">Czerniakow</span>"", I think. </sentence><sentence id="670">And Dr. Korezak used to manage to get always a couple sacks of potatoes, more than anybody, any other organization. </sentence><sentence id="671">We had our own horse and <span class="spatial object">wagon</span>. </sentence><sentence id="672">He had that capacity, the tongue, you know. </sentence><sentence id="673">And he was offered many time by the <span class="building">Polish underground</span> to escape. </sentence><sentence id="674">He would not leave us. </sentence><sentence id="675">He would not. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="688">Q: You said earlier that once you went to <span class="building">school</span>, after you were part of the <span class="building">orphanage</span>, you had a new respect? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="690">A: Very new respect. </sentence><sentence id="691">Because they teaches us, the new student, the child of Dr. Janusz Korezak. </sentence><sentence id="692">Like there was -- children got homework, okay? </sentence><sentence id="693">And the children had homework, so like she says, "For the next day or so you had to memorize page number so and so." </sentence><sentence id="694">So certain children were reading, and they say, "Next, the student Baum, the child of Dr. Korczak." </sentence><sentence id="695">I know everybody knew, so I read it, you know, and then was a different story. </sentence><sentence id="696">I don't know why, how. </sentence><sentence id="697">They knew that Korczak was like god. </sentence><sentence id="698">Because first of all, it was only Jewish person who had the program on Polish radio. </sentence><sentence id="699">Polish radio started, "Doctor, oh doctor." </sentence><sentence id="700">Everything was children. </sentence><sentence id="701">He was -- nothing was writing children's' books. </sentence><sentence id="702">So, Polish children knew him. </sentence><sentence id="703">Also he took care of Polish, he participated in other <span class="building">orphanages</span> that had only Polish children, non-Jewish. </sentence><sentence id="704">He was everywhere, and we, we gratefully thankful we had plenty of him also. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="720">Q: So, when you were saying you got more respect, this was respect from non-Jewish? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="722">A: From non-Jewish. </sentence><sentence id="723">The beatings stopped, the beatings stopped. </sentence><sentence id="724">And then eventually I went to a <span class="building">school</span> where it was more Jewish than non-Jewish, it was in the -- more in the <span class="region">Jewish area</span>. </sentence><sentence id="725">So, it was okay. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="730">Q: But it was mixed? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="732">A: It was mixed, yes, it was mixed. </sentence><sentence id="733">The teacher was Polish, but nice. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="734"> "" <span class="building">American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee</span>. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="735"> Adam Czerniakow (1880-1942), head of <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span> Judenrat (Jewish Council). </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="736">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="737">Let's talk a little bit about the war now. </sentence><sentence id="738">When were you sent to the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="739">A: When everybody else went the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="740">When the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> started, we lived down in the -- like I said, the <span class="building">shed</span> of the coals. </sentence><sentence id="741">The owner, apparently he saw what's going on, he left the whole thing and give us his <span class="interior space">trailer apartment</span>, it was like a <span class="interior space">trailer apartment</span>. </sentence><sentence id="742">We lived there for a while. </sentence><sentence id="743">And when the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> started, we had to find somebody to exchange <span class="building">apartments</span>. </sentence><sentence id="744">Like people that the <span class="region">area</span> was designated for <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, and they were not Jewish, they had to find <span class="interior space">apartment</span> outside the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="745">So we gave up our <span class="interior space">apartment</span>, which was quite nice, in exchange for a small <span class="interior space">room</span> like this, with an <span class="interior space">attic</span>. </sentence><sentence id="746">And we crammed in, all of us, all six children. </sentence><sentence id="747">And one of my sister walked off to <span class="country">Russia</span>. </sentence><sentence id="748">She went to <span class="country">Russia</span> in 1941, just prior to the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="749">She got married and went to <span class="country">Russia</span>. </sentence><sentence id="750">To this day, I never heard from her. </sentence><sentence id="751">We had one postcard and that's it. </sentence><sentence id="752">We are still looking for her. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="767">Q: So you were out of -- you were officially old enough to be out of the <span class="building">orphanage</span> at this point? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="769">A: Ah- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="771">Q: When the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> was formed? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="773">A: If there would be no war I would still have a year or two. </sentence><sentence id="774">But I was -- I was such a hustler, because like even before the war, when daddy was dead already and there was no food, and mama couldn't support, I was able to go to work at the <span class="building">plant</span>; sit a presser all day, and by the end of the day, we receive one -- one you received one zloty, and one zloty brought one bread and a smoked fish. </sentence><sentence id="775">And when I brought it <span class="building">home</span> there was seven o'clock, my oldest brother jumped to the <span class="dlf">ceiling</span>, because it was breakfast. </sentence><sentence id="776">And I was about maybe nine, ten years old. </sentence><sentence id="777">And see my brother Joe was in the <span class="building">orphanage</span>, and the rest of the family was hungry. </sentence><sentence id="778">So instead of spending the day in the <span class="building">orphanage</span> where I could get my good meals, I went to work so I could get some cash to buy a bread and smoked fish and bring <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="785">Q: So you left the <span class="building">orphanage</span> early, or you were in and out? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="787">A: In and out, I didn't leave it, you see, because I was torn apart. </sentence><sentence id="788">My mother and brother and sister were hungry, and I could get five meals there, so certain days I just didn't go. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="791">Q: So- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="793">A: Try to feed the family a little bit. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="795">Q: And you were the youngest? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="796">A: The youngest, yes. </sentence><sentence id="797">The youngest and the hustler, always the hustler. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="798">Q: So in 1940 when the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> was formed--? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="800">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="802">Q: You all moved in, and at that point you're back with your family. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="804">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="806">Q: Your mom was -- you're not in the --? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="808">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="810">Q: You weren't -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="812">A: Yes, I was in the <span class="building">orphanage</span>, I was in and out of <span class="populated place">Chlodna</span> and <span class="populated place">Sienna</span>", but not officially full-term, because then there was no more -- I mean there was no more such a control, and no more that they knew everybody is here. </sentence><sentence id="813">If you came, you came, you were welcome. </sentence><sentence id="814">You were never sent away. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="818">Q: So it became a little more chaotic? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="820">A: Right chaotic and sickness. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="822">Q: Do you remember the move, when the <span class="building">orphanage</span> had to move into the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>; do you remember that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="824">A: Yes, yes. </sentence><sentence id="825">We had the, we had the horse and the <span class="spatial object">wagon</span>, and there was Mr. John Zielinski, and we moved little by little, you know, and the kids helped as much as they could. </sentence><sentence id="826">And we moved to a <span class="building">school</span>, but from the <span class="building">school</span> we moved somewhere else, I just don't remember the <span class="dlf">street</span>. </sentence><sentence id="827">We moved several times. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="832">Q: Did you -- was that was that an upsetting -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="834">A: Very upsetting, because, sure, because the first <span class="building">orphanage home</span> was a beautiful <span class="building">building</span>, you know, and every child has his own beautiful <span class="spatial object">bed</span>, and every child has his own place in a big <span class="interior space">cupboard</span>, and every child had his seat at a <span class="spatial object">table</span> in <span class="interior space">dining room</span>, and, I mean, it was <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="835">It was <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="836">And over there we were we just cramped together; it was -- it wasn't nice. </sentence><sentence id="837">But Dr. Korezak gave us aspiration and hope. </sentence><sentence id="838">You know, we just looked whatever he does, whatever he says. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="839"> 8 <span class="dlf">Chlodna</span> and <span class="dlf">Sienna</span> were <span class="dlf">streets</span> within the confines of the <span class="populated place">Warsaw ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="840"><span class="building">Chlodna 33</span> was the location of </sentence></p><p><sentence id="841"> Korezak's <span class="building">orphanage</span> after it was forced to relocate from the <span class="building">Krochmalna building</span>. </sentence><sentence id="842">Janusz Korczak, The <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span> </sentence></p><p><sentence id="843"> <span class="populated place">Ghetto</span> Memoirs of Janusz Korczak (<span class="populated place">Washington, DC</span>: University Press of America, 1978), 64. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="844">Q: For -- how long was Dr. Korcezak able to really maintain sort of the organization of the of the <span class="building">orphanage</span>? </sentence><sentence id="845">Did everybody still have their responsibilities in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>? </sentence><sentence id="846">Was he still able to bring you food? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="847">A: Until the end. </sentence><sentence id="848">He was able to bring some, you know, he was able to until the end. </sentence><sentence id="849">His struggle was like survival, but not for him, but for the children. </sentence><sentence id="850">He virtually got out and begged. </sentence><sentence id="851">He begged for my children he begged, you know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="857">Q: Did you ever see him do this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="859">A: Oh, yes; his life deteriorating, you know. </sentence><sentence id="860">He just would not walk away. </sentence><sentence id="861">You know, he stood in front of that <span class="dlf">door</span> with that Joint representative, he says, "Doctor, I cannot help you, I cannot do it." </sentence><sentence id="862">But, he says, "But my children." </sentence><sentence id="863">And he used to wear the Polish uniform. </sentence><sentence id="864">He refused to wear the Star of David. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="871">Q: I see. </sentence><sentence id="872">Why is that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="875">A: Because he served in the Polish Army." </sentence><sentence id="876">He was an officer. </sentence><sentence id="877">He refused. </sentence><sentence id="878">He was arrested once for not wearing it, but still refused to wear it. " </sentence><sentence id="879">But my children, but my children." </sentence><sentence id="880">And he had a lot of support from non-Jewish organizations also. </sentence><sentence id="881">So we always had a little bit more than the people outside of the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="882">But naturally not enough, because when you were hungry, you were hungry no matter how much you get. </sentence><sentence id="883">But this poor man, he was growing thinner and thinner and thinner, and he just ate very little. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="893">Q: Did you -- at that time were you too young to think, "I wonder why he is getting so thin?" </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="895">A: Who paid attention? </sentence><sentence id="896">You were so hungry and so eager we became like non-human any more. </sentence><sentence id="897">When you're hungry, it's just terrible. </sentence><sentence id="898">Now I think of it, why did I take that slice of bread that he gave me, I cannot forgive myself. </sentence><sentence id="899">I mean the guilt, you know.... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="905">Q: Where were you when the <span class="building">orphanage</span> was evacuated? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="907">A: When the <span class="building">orphanage</span> was evacuated"*, I remember I was there the day before, and then I went over and help my mother bring over the bread, and at night I spent, either I spent <span class="building">home</span>, or I was out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, because I managed, I figured out it's better at night to "4 Korezak enlisted in the Polish Army in 1919 and served as a military doctor. </sentence><sentence id="908">Falkowska, Maria, A Chronology of the Life, Activities and Works of Janusz Korczak (<span class="populated place">New York</span>: <span class="building">Kosciuszko Foundation</span>, 1980), 25. </sentence><sentence id="909">5 On August 6, 1942, Korezak, the <span class="building">orphanage</span> staff, and some 200 children were sent to <span class="populated place">Treblinka concentration camp</span> in <span class="country">Poland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="910">A Chronology of the Life, Activities and Works of Janusz Korczak, 49-50. </sentence><sentence id="911"> come out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> and be on the <span class="region">Aryan side</span>, and wait until it gets dark again to come back, or earlier dawn. </sentence><sentence id="912">So I was out, and then I managed to get some food. </sentence><sentence id="913">I think there was some grains or whatever. </sentence><sentence id="914">I was begging. </sentence><sentence id="915">And I ran so happily, you know, to the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="916">And while going there, a woman come and, "Oh God they took the children, my God they took the children, my God they took the children," you know. </sentence><sentence id="917">She was crying, and I said, I -- where, so pointed -- she pointed to the <span class="dlf">Umschlagplatz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="918">The <span class="dlf">Umschlagplatz</span> means the <span class="building">station</span> where the <span class="spatial object">trains</span> came. </sentence><sentence id="919">And I ran there, I wanted to go there to him, you know. </sentence><sentence id="920">The German "Get lost, you are not Jewish, get lost." </sentence><sentence id="921">And I saw that he was, by the end he was kind of disputing with a soldier, I found out later that they had papers for him and a passport for him to go to freedom, and he wouldn't go.!(r) You know, he went to the <span class="spatial object">train</span> and went straight to <span class="populated place">Treblinka</span>, and I was left alone, and now I figure they took away my last hope from me, what am I going to do without him? </sentence><sentence id="922">How am I going to survive without him? </sentence><sentence id="923">You know. </sentence><sentence id="924">So I went back to mother. </sentence><sentence id="925">I didn't know where to go, I just didn't know. </sentence><sentence id="926">So I went back to mother, and from there we struggled, one by one to go out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> and go to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>, where my mother had a sister. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="950">Q: Okay, let me.... Are you okay? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="952">A: Sure. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="954">Q: Do you want to take a second? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="956">A: I'm all right. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="958">Q: Can you tell me, what were some of the things that you saw and experienced? </sentence><sentence id="959">What was life like, not just for you, but for your family in general? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="962"> A <span class="interior space">Well</span>, hunger, starvation, sickness. </sentence><sentence id="963">I mean... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="966">Q: You were aware of this as a child? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="968">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="969">I saw it on a daily basis. </sentence><sentence id="970">I virtually walked over corpse, there were corpses lying around every day, everywhere. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="974">Q: What did you think when you saw this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="976">A: Callous. </sentence><sentence id="977">How to, how to find an extra piece of bread, maybe there is a broken down <span class="building">store</span> where you could find something that you could take, trade or sell or whatever, because there was a <span class="building">market</span>, you know, there was like a here you call it a <span class="building">flea market</span>, that you had something you could go sell in exchange, like my sister had a nice red coat with an fur collar made of Alaskan seal, so she didn't see, my oldest brother stole it from her, went to "(c) Reputedly, Korczak had been provided with papers for his release by CENTOS (Federation of Associations for the Care of Orphans in <span class="country">Poland</span>). </sentence><sentence id="978">Betty Jean Lifton, The King of Children: A Biography of Janusz Korczak (<span class="populated place">New York</span>: <span class="building">Schocken Books</span>, 1989), 344. </sentence><sentence id="979"> the <span class="building">market</span>, sold it, and bought a bag of flour, brings <span class="building">home</span> a bag of flour, very excited. </sentence><sentence id="980">And my mom cooks it, and it wasn't flour, it was plaster. </sentence><sentence id="981">These things were going on. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="991">Q: As a kid, you were walking over a dead body, what -- do you remember what you were thinking? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="993">A: Found it natural, I said, oh just another poor soul, another poor soul. </sentence><sentence id="994">Just make sure I'm not going to be in that position. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="997">Q: And what was your mother doing? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="999">A: Nothing, but just sitting there and waiting and completely frustrated, not knowing how to prepare, how to find some frozen potatoes or some potato pills, or something to feed these kids day by day. </sentence><sentence id="1000">As a last resort, I remember one day she didn't have anything to sell any more, so she had golden crowns, pulled out the golden crowns. </sentence><sentence id="1001">She went to a dentist and had them taken off for a few zlotys just so we could survive a couple days or so; she sold the golden caps. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1005">Q: Was there any <span class="building">school</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1007">A: No <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1009">Q: Or studies? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1011">A: No. </sentence><sentence id="1012">There might have been, but who had patience for that. </sentence><sentence id="1013">It was just a daily way how to survive, how to get, how to get something to eat. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1017">Q: Were you aware of any activities, like cultural activities or anything? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1019">A: Not interested. </sentence><sentence id="1020">I was not interested at all. </sentence><sentence id="1021">I didn't want to go to <span class="building">school</span>, I didn't want to participate in anything, only hustle. </sentence><sentence id="1022">My best activities was jumping over the <span class="dlf">gate</span>, run to the <span class="building">Polish market</span>, buy a few loaves of bread, throw over. </sentence><sentence id="1023">That gave me pride that I could do it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1029">Q: How did you learn how to do that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1031">A: They say in Jewish, <span class="building">tzuris</span>"" teaches you how to survive, how to survive. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1033">Q: Weren't you afraid? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1035">A: I was not, no. </sentence><sentence id="1036">First of all, once I got through that Polish policeman I was fine, because I spoke good Polish, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1037">And the farmers did not recognize me. </sentence><sentence id="1038">I didn't deal with "T Troubles (Yiddish). </sentence><sentence id="1039"> any young -- with any gang, so they didn't recognize me. </sentence><sentence id="1040">And once legitimately, I bought I paid them, because out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> you didn't need any rations, so you put down the money and they sold you, one loaf, two loaves. </sentence><sentence id="1041">So I took about three or four and run in, if I threw them over several times, so by the end of the day was one bread profit. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1050">Q: So tell me, how did you get to the <span class="region">Polish side</span>? </sentence><sentence id="1051">How did you do this? </sentence><sentence id="1052">Did you have a system for getting out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1056">A: As I said, there was a <span class="dlf">fence</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1057">And there was <span class="interior space">spaces</span> between the <span class="spatial object">boards</span>, so my mother used to put her hands like creating a <span class="dlf">step ladder</span> and I stepped, stepped and jumped over, jumped over. </sentence><sentence id="1058">Once I was on the other side, I was waiting for a car"(r), because the <span class="spatial object">cars</span> were going slow from the <span class="building">court</span> or to the <span class="building">court</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1059">Once I was on the other side, I was in the middle of the <span class="dlf">street</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1060">And that was not the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, that was the part that people were going to the <span class="building">courthouse</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1066">Q: You said you went through the <span class="spatial object">board</span> or you went over? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1068">A: Over the <span class="spatial object">boards</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1069">She made like a <span class="spatial object">stepladder</span> for me, so I went. </sentence><sentence id="1070">And the <span class="spatial object">boards</span> wasn't very high, especially on that <span class="dlf">street</span> it wasn't very high. </sentence><sentence id="1071">Luckily there was no <span class="dlf">wire fence</span> or no <span class="spatial object">cement blocks</span>, just <span class="spatial object">board</span>, and it had a <span class="interior space">space</span> where my mother could get her hands in there. </sentence><sentence id="1072">And I used to step on her hands one by one and jumped over. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1078">Q: Between each of the <span class="spatial object">boards</span>, that's where she put her hand in a to make the <span class="spatial object">ladder</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1080">A: Between the <span class="spatial object">boards</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1082">Q: Between them, right? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1084">A: Between the <span class="spatial object">boards</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1086">Q: And how come the guards didn't see you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1088">A: Because they were quite -- maybe 200 feet, on the corner of the <span class="dlf">street</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1089">And I-- when I went out, I went in the middle of the <span class="dlf">block</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1090">And on the <span class="dlf">corner</span> there was the police guard, just seeing that the <span class="spatial object">cars</span> going there. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1094">Q: Now, were there other kids doing this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1096">A: Some of them did it, yes, quite a few did it. </sentence><sentence id="1097">Some policemen looked away, and some were very nasty and tried to catch us, and we run fast. </sentence><sentence id="1098">Sometimes they could catch us, "S <span class="spatial object">Streetcar</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1099"> sometimes they didn't. </sentence><sentence id="1100">Once he got me. </sentence><sentence id="1101">It was wintertime all the snow, and I couldn't run so fast. </sentence><sentence id="1102">I fell down and he started hitting me with a <span class="spatial object">club</span> and took all the breads away from me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1111">Q: So you threw the bread over the <span class="dlf">fence</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1113">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1115">Q: And your mother was waiting for you on the other side? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1117">A: She caught them and she could sell them immediately to the people that could afford. </sentence><sentence id="1118">And I was waiting there for ten, fifteen minutes, and she pass me the money and I went on another trip. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1121">Q: What was it like on the other side? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1123">A: A new world. </sentence><sentence id="1124"><span class="building">Restaurants</span>, food available, everything. </sentence><sentence id="1125">I was afraid to go there, first, first of all, I couldn't afford it. </sentence><sentence id="1126">I was afraid to go to a <span class="building">restaurant</span> because they could tell on me, because the way I was dressed, you know, in rags. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1131">Q: What were the Polish kids on that <span class="region">side</span> doing? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1133">A: There were no kids, because it was like <span class="dlf">commercial street</span>, and mostly <span class="spatial object">cars</span> going into the <span class="building">court</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1134">So there were no <span class="building">houses</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1135">The only <span class="building">houses</span> that were there in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> on both sides. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1139">Q: What is your memory of the organization of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>? </sentence><sentence id="1140">The Jewish police, the <span class="building">Jewish Councils</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1143">A: I had nothing to do with the <span class="building">Councils</span>, and the police, they were just standing at the <span class="dlf">post</span> where the <span class="dlf">gates</span> were to come in or out. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1145">Q: But, in general, were the <span class="building">Jewish police</span> nicer to the than the German police or? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1147">A: We had no contact with the German police, because first you had to -- if you had the papers to go out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, you had to present them to the Jewish police. </sentence><sentence id="1148">The Jewish police presented them to the German police, and you could go. </sentence><sentence id="1149">It was like a <span class="dlf">border</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1153">Q: But you were afraid of the Jewish police as well? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1155">A: Yeah, sure. </sentence><sentence id="1156">Yes, of course. </sentence><sentence id="1157">It was authority. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1158">Q: And it was just authority, or was there something special about these councils and the police? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1159">A: They had no guns and there was nothing special; there was authorities, and some of them played out the role the way they would be big heroes. </sentence><sentence id="1160">If they didn't like something about you, they saw that you just coming in from the other side and you were successful to come through the <span class="building">German post</span>, they took care, you know, if they wanted to let you through, if they didn't want to, they could arrest you or beat you up. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1163">Q: And they did that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1165">A: They did that many times, yes, just to show authority. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1167">Q: You saw that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1169">A: Oh yeah, just to show authority. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1171">Q: What other functions did the <span class="building">Jewish Council</span> and the <span class="building">Jewish police</span> serve? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1173">A: I didn't see any council, but the Jewish police, I mean, this is the organized <span class="spatial object">transport</span> as I said, and groups of young boys to go to work that required to do some work for whatever the Germans wanted us to do. </sentence><sentence id="1174">Like wintertime was most of all cleaning, snow shoveling for the whole day. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1177">Q: Did you or any of your brothers or sisters do this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1179">A: Me and my brothers we did it, yes, we had to do it. </sentence><sentence id="1180">Not in <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>, but outside, everybody got a -- you know, off the <span class="dlf">road</span> there is that -- what you call it, <span class="dlf">trench</span>; it was full of snow, so we had to clean it out so the <span class="env feature">water</span> would go in. </sentence><sentence id="1181">So everybody that like five hundred feet, clean it out, and you could go <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1185">Q: Was this outside the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> or inside? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1187">A: Outside the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, on the main <span class="dlf">highway</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1189">Q: So they would walk you outside? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1191">A: They walk us outside, and we used to do our work. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1193">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="1194">So what happened next? </sentence><sentence id="1195">You mentioned that you went to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>; how? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1199">A: Yes but before I weren't were went to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1200">I told you that the <span class="building">orphanage</span> was isolated. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1201">Q: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="1202">A So first, as I said my oldest brother went, and the other brother went, and then my mother went, and she was caught, she was brought back to <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span> to the quarantine, and then again everybody started out. </sentence><sentence id="1203">We had several cousins everyone of the children, one cousin took care, you know, and it was fine, I mean there was a bite to eat. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1207">Q: This was in <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1209">A: <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1211">Q: How did you get there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1213">A: Again, out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, took a <span class="spatial object">street car</span> until the end of <span class="populated place">town</span> and walk hundred kilometers. </sentence><sentence id="1214">I mean it was a night and a day walk. </sentence><sentence id="1215">Sometimes a horse and <span class="spatial object">wagon</span> go by, you used to jump it on it for a ride, like hitch hike. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1219">Q: How much of you went at this time? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1221">A: By the end we were all over there, all. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1223">Q: Right. </sentence><sentence id="1224">But how many went in this little <span class="spatial object">convoy</span> of a hundred miles together? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1227">A: No one together, everybody separate, one by one. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1229">Q: So you didn't go with your mother? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1231">A: No, no, no, no. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1233">Q: And what year do you think this was? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1235">A: "41, </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1237">Q: Okay. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1239">A: "41 because we were, we were there -- I remember -- the part of the summer, before "42.Now, while in -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1242">Q: Let me just ask you a question here, because I'm a little confused. </sentence><sentence id="1243">I thought I had read that <span class="populated place">Korczak</span> and the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> was evacuated in "42? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1244">A: In "42, right, August "42. </sentence><sentence id="1245">Yeah, you're right. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1246">Q: So does that mean that you were still, that maybe you went a little later? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1248">A: Could be, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1250">Q: So, to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> a little later? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1252">A: Yes, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1254">Q: Or did you go to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> and come back? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1256">A: No, no, no, I didn't go back. </sentence><sentence id="1257">It was right after they took the children we went to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1258">The dates, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1259">So we went to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> and then the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> was created in <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>, and then it became already food not so much available, because a lot of people came, a lot of people came from all over other <span class="country">countries</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1264">Q: And why did they go to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1266">A: Because everybody had a sister or an uncle and it belonged to the -- they call it -- I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="1267">There were a lot of Germans there in the <span class="region">area</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1268">And it belonged to -- they call it the <span class="populated place">Third Reich</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1269">They call it a part of the Third Reich, and surrounded by <span class="region">farm lands</span>, I mean rich. </sentence><sentence id="1270">There was food. </sentence><sentence id="1271">But so many people came there the food got less. </sentence><sentence id="1272">So I try to find a way to make some money, so | used to buy in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> cigarette paper, and went out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> and sold it to the farmers to make some money. </sentence><sentence id="1273">And then I sold my two brothers. </sentence><sentence id="1274">I didn't actually sell them, but I recommended to the farmers, if you need somebody to work for you just for food, is going to go. </sentence><sentence id="1275">So I found a place for this one, and found a place for my oldest one; and then I look for myself. </sentence><sentence id="1276">While I was going, then I was also going to beg for food. </sentence><sentence id="1277">I mean I went in and I says "If I can get something please?" </sentence><sentence id="1278">One day a woman asked me, "A big boy like you shouldn't beg for food, he should become" -- summertime you sent out the cows on a <span class="dlf">field</span>, but somebody has to watch them that they don't go and eat the corn and the wheat, they should eat the <span class="env feature">grass</span> -- "A shepherd." </sentence><sentence id="1279">So I said, "Would you hire a Jewish boy?" </sentence><sentence id="1280">She says, "My God, I would never believe your Jewish. </sentence><sentence id="1281">But if your not gonna tell anybody, I won't tell anybody." </sentence><sentence id="1282">So, I make a deal with her, and I said, "I do it. </sentence><sentence id="1283">By the end of the season you give me five..." it was by the meter then; I don't know, five hundred pounds of potato and 80 deutschemark, and she set says, "You got it." </sentence><sentence id="1284">I went there, her son didn't know I'm Jewish, her daughter-in-law didn't know I'm Jewish, and there were a few boys "deg Tn 1939, <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> was annexed by the Germans along with the portion of <span class="country">Poland</span> northwest of <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1285">Wladyslaw Czaplinski and Tadeusz Ladogorski, The Historical Atlas of <span class="country">Poland</span> (<span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>: Panstwowe Przedsiebiorstwo Wyd. </sentence><sentence id="1286">Kartograficznych, 1986), 50. </sentence><sentence id="1287"> -- never knew I'm Jewish, and I stood there the whole season, the whole summer. </sentence><sentence id="1288">By the end of the term, they had to give me their potatoes. </sentence><sentence id="1289">And the I took the horse and the <span class="spatial object">wagon</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1290">And at that time the Germans brought in together potatoes and all that, and put them in <span class="interior space">basements</span>, you know, down, to bury them; I don't know for what. </sentence><sentence id="1291">So every for farmer had to donate so much. </sentence><sentence id="1292">So I drove in with the horse and <span class="spatial object">wagon</span> myself. </sentence><sentence id="1293">And they told me here, here, you have to put it here. </sentence><sentence id="1294">And I says yeah, yeah, yeah, and I went straight to the <span class="building">house</span> where my mother and my cousin was. </sentence><sentence id="1295">We unloaded it, but we never had time to consume it. </sentence><sentence id="1296">You know. </sentence><sentence id="1297">And then -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1332">Q: Was this <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> very organized? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1334">A: It was quite organized. </sentence><sentence id="1335">But then, you had to be a <span class="building">residence</span>, a resident, of that <span class="populated place">town</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1336">My oldest brother, who didn't survive, he used to go out with the daughter of the president of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1337">And they gave him an ID card that he is from here. </sentence><sentence id="1338">One night they say everybody out in the <span class="dlf">field</span>, all Jewish people out, out in the <span class="dlf">field</span>; and they started to verify. </sentence><sentence id="1339">Whoever had a resident card, the ID card could go <span class="building">home</span>; whoever didn't have, about hundred brown uniform Germans" this way, one hundred this way, and everybody had their whip in the hand. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1346">Q: Ihave to stop you. </sentence><sentence id="1347">We're going to pick up. </sentence><sentence id="1348">They need to change tapes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1352">A: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="1353">2deg Nazi stormtroopers (Sturmabteilung or "SA"). </sentence><sentence id="1354">Amy Hackett, ed., </sentence><sentence id="1355">The Encyclopedia of the Third Reich (<span class="populated place">New York</span>: <span class="building">Macmillan Publishing</span>, 1991), s.v. " </sentence><sentence id="1356"><span class="building">Sturmabteilung</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1357"> Tape #2 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1365">Q: We're in <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1367">A: As I said, whoever had the ID card as a resident from the <span class="populated place">city</span> were allowed to go <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1368">I resumed normal activity. </sentence><sentence id="1369">Whoever didn't have, there were about a hundred of the Germans in the brown uniforms on each side, making like a <span class="dlf">gate</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1370">Everybody had a whip, if they had to cut down a <span class="dlf">branch</span> just to have something in their hands. </sentence><sentence id="1371">And whoever didn't have it had to pass them. </sentence><sentence id="1372">And everyone had to hit while running through. </sentence><sentence id="1373">My two brothers and one sister were extremely lucky, they were the first one of the victims. </sentence><sentence id="1374">So one German took them and walked them through that terrible <span class="dlf">gate</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1375">So the ones that get beaten should know to where to run. </sentence><sentence id="1376">My oldest sister, unfortunately, wasn't so lucky she was beaten very badly, and then came my turn. </sentence><sentence id="1377">They told me I had to go there, so I go there. </sentence><sentence id="1378">So I was running like a snake, you know, nobody could hit me. </sentence><sentence id="1379">I escaped everyone. </sentence><sentence id="1380">By the very end one was waiting for me and hit me right across the face here and split my lip right open. </sentence><sentence id="1381">When it was all over, they put us in <span class="spatial object">trucks</span> and put us in a <span class="dlf">field</span> surrounded with <span class="dlf">barbed wire</span>, and kept there I think for a day or so. </sentence><sentence id="1382">No water to wash up or no food, no nothing, and then -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1399">Q: What about your mother? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1401">A: My mother was in <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1402">My mother, she was then remained in <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1405">Q: But she went to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> for a while? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1407">A: She did not make it because she was arrested on the <span class="region">Aryan side</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1408">She went to <span class="building">prison</span> and she went to <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1409">And she waited the for a chance to come to get some money or some goods for that person that smuggled the people out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1410">So, we were there, and then we were put on <span class="spatial object">trucks</span>, and we were driven to a place called <span class="populated place">Pomiechowek</span>, which was a just a <span class="building">building</span>, a big <span class="building">building</span>, you know, with <span class="interior space">cement floor</span>, and that's where we slept on the <span class="env feature">ground</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1411">No food, no water; waiting for a rain to come down with started to wash a little bit with the soap. </sentence><sentence id="1412">Then the rain stopped. </sentence><sentence id="1413">And eventually, after the third or fourth day, they brought in water in <span class="spatial object">barrels</span> of sour pickles. </sentence><sentence id="1414">That water we drank, and then a little soup. </sentence><sentence id="1415">And we were just kept there with, without saying anything to us or anything; we were just kept there. </sentence><sentence id="1416">Guarded by Ukrainian soldiers which served the German Army. </sentence><sentence id="1417">And I saw outside behind the <span class="dlf">gate</span>, people from that <span class="populated place">town</span> had relatives in that place, they used to come and brought a package. </sentence><sentence id="1418">They called out the name and threw in a package, and the guards did not object. </sentence><sentence id="1419">So I said to my sisters, you know what, why don't you go talk to them a little bit, flirt with them, distract them. </sentence><sentence id="1420">They didn't know what I was about to do. </sentence><sentence id="1421">When they went, I got down on my knees and dug a <span class="dlf">hole</span> under the <span class="dlf">gate</span> with my hands I dug a <span class="dlf">hole</span> and crawled out, cleaned myself up, and stood up as if I were a visitor, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1422">And -- </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1423">Q: Were you scared? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1424">A: No. </sentence><sentence id="1425">And walked away, walked away; walked out on the <span class="dlf">highway</span> with another boy. </sentence><sentence id="1426">And I saw <span class="spatial object">trucks</span> of workers, I ask, "Where you going?" " </sentence><sentence id="1427">Oh, we going to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1428">I jumped on the <span class="spatial object">truck</span> and went to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1429">By then I was not afraid, I went straight to the <span class="dlf">gate</span> to the Jewish policemen. " </sentence><sentence id="1430">I am so and so, I am David." </sentence><sentence id="1431">David was my oldest brother, and the Jewish policeman was Moshe Niman (ph) who was friendly with my brother, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1432">So I said, "I just escaped from <span class="populated place">Pomiechewek</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1433">I went in, and in a minute I was surrounded, "Who is the hero who is the hero? </sentence><sentence id="1434">How could you escape from there?What's going on there?" </sentence><sentence id="1435">So I told them the story, and I go to my cousin. </sentence><sentence id="1436">And by that time, I see my mother was there. </sentence><sentence id="1437">She came from <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1438">While we were all there. </sentence><sentence id="1439">She came, oh, when she saw me, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1440">And the rest of them apparently remained in this <span class="populated place">Pomiechowek</span> a few week until they evacuate them back to <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1459">Q: About how long was that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1461">A: I don't know, but it was quite a couple months I guess. </sentence><sentence id="1462">They chased them on march back to <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1465">Q: Let me stop you a moment. </sentence><sentence id="1466">When you got out of this <span class="populated place">Pomiechowek</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1469">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1471">Q: Did you feel any, anything about leaving the rest of your brothers and sisters in there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1473">A: If I feel any remorse, any guilt? </sentence><sentence id="1474">Not really, no. </sentence><sentence id="1475">It was --I felt that I'll be able to go there and get some food and bring to them. </sentence><sentence id="1476">You see. </sentence><sentence id="1477">| felt as a rescuer. </sentence><sentence id="1478">You see like going to go to <span class="building">work</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1479">I figure I'll go, I'll get something and come back. </sentence><sentence id="1480">Because being outside it didn't bother me, because I would appear as a resident of that <span class="populated place">town</span>, it's legal there. </sentence><sentence id="1481">And bringing a package was okay because they did not object. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1491">Q: But, did you talk to people when they just thought you were Polish, and you told people you were just a Polish boy? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1493">A: When I was begging? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1495">Q: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1497">A: Yeah, yeah, I did, "holy spirit, bless holy spirit," [gestures sign of the cross] whatever you say, and "Can I ask for something?" </sentence><sentence id="1498">They say "Why, why you begging you begging for something?" </sentence><sentence id="1499">I say my, "Mother and father was killed in the war, you know, I am an orphan and I have nothing." " </sentence><sentence id="1500">What are you collecting?" </sentence><sentence id="1501">I say, "Whatever you can, a little flour, a little barley, you know, some potatoes, a piece of bread." </sentence><sentence id="1502">So they gave me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1509">Q: You are how old now, about? </sentence><sentence id="1510">Eighteen, 17? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1513">A: No... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1515">Q: You're still very young? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1517">A: Then it was-- we are talking now from "26 to "40? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1519">Q: "42. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1521"> A No, no. </sentence><sentence id="1522">From "26, "26 to "30 was 14. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1525">Q: Well, <span class="populated place">Korczak</span> was "42, so that makes you 16? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1527">A: Sixteen, I was in <span class="populated place">camp</span> already. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1529">Q: Okay, well <span class="populated place">Korezak</span> -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1531"> A <span class="dlf">Well</span>, I was about 14, 15 then, before I went to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1532">15, but I was not developed because I'm hungry. </sentence><sentence id="1533">So then my two brothers and two sisters, they were chased to <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>, and they told me they made a big fire so they couldn't go back. </sentence><sentence id="1534">They were in <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1535">Now, a postcard from, come from my two sisters to mother, "We are here. </sentence><sentence id="1536">Icek is sick with typhus in a <span class="building">hospital</span>, this one here. </sentence><sentence id="1537">They have nothing to eat, they have no place to sleep. </sentence><sentence id="1538">We are desperate, we are helpless, what are we going to do?" </sentence><sentence id="1539">So, what is mother going to do? </sentence><sentence id="1540">She takes off and walks to <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span> to rescue the two girls and the two boys. </sentence><sentence id="1541">By friends and so on, she found a little place where they can stay, they take him in. </sentence><sentence id="1542">By that time, the girls came to <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> with that smuggler. </sentence><sentence id="1543">The other brother, old, came, and he came. </sentence><sentence id="1544">Then we were all in <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> already. </sentence><sentence id="1545">And by that time, we were all in <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>, and during that time I sold my two brothers, you know, we spend like summer. </sentence><sentence id="1546">And then the main evacuation started. </sentence><sentence id="1547">Everybody, residents, non residents. </sentence><sentence id="1548">Everybody transport, go to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1549">So I think ours were the second <span class="spatial object">transport</span> that went to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1550">My oldest brother remained because he was friendly with the president's daughter, unfortunately. </sentence><sentence id="1551">If he would have come with us he might have been survived. </sentence><sentence id="1552">So we went to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>, it was in the fall already. </sentence><sentence id="1553">It was in the fall because I remember when we got dressed naked, the frost was sticking to my feet. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1577">Q: You think this is "42ish? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1578">A: I think it's "42ish, yeah."! </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1579">Q: Okay, tell me a little bit about the trip to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1581">A: The trip to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> on the <span class="spatial object">train</span>, on a <span class="spatial object">train</span> me, my mother, my two sisters and my two brothers. </sentence><sentence id="1582">Took about two on or three days, I think. </sentence><sentence id="1583">No food, no <span class="env feature">water</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1584">I mean, the food -- I mean we took a little bit of food with us, whatever we could, you know, and I was dressed in four suits, because there was a tailor down there, we didn't know where we are going he says take, take maybe we can sell, and -- wherever we going, because it was resettling. </sentence><sentence id="1585">We knew we were going to be resettled somewhere else. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1591">Q: What other things did you take with you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1593">A: Take whatever we could carry, you know, <span class="spatial object">suitcases</span>, clothing, and what food we had. </sentence><sentence id="1594">And I think they gave us some bread for the <span class="dlf">road</span>, but water was -- everybody was dying for water. </sentence><sentence id="1595">So what my mother had, she had -- she still had a very thin wedding ring. </sentence><sentence id="1596">She gave it to a soldier so he could scoop up a little cup with snow for me, you know, she didn't -- she couldn't take care of the others, but I was the youngest so he scooped up a little snow for the wedding ring. </sentence><sentence id="1597">That was the last thing. </sentence><sentence id="1598">And then early dawn one day we arrived on the <span class="dlf">ramp</span> in Birkenau(tm) and he said, "Everybody out," and we see the boys in the striped suits. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1605">Q: So you were on this <span class="spatial object">train</span>, you had really no idea where you were going or what was in <span class="building">store</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1607">A: No, no idea no, resettling, that's all. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1609">Q: Was it at all frightening, or you didn't know? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1611">A: Didn't know, it wasn't even frightening. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1613">Q: Okay. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1615">A: Because we were promised we were going to a better place. </sentence><sentence id="1616">We didn't know. </sentence><sentence id="1617">So we arrived there, and naturally everybody out, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1618">And the boys with the striped uniform say "Everybody out, go walk this way, walk this way." </sentence><sentence id="1619">Helping people and trying to carry the <span class="spatial object">luggages</span>, I mean we had to leave our <span class="spatial object">luggage</span>, we had to leave. </sentence><sentence id="1620">And I 2! </sentence><sentence id="1621">The German Army occupied <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> on September 5, 1939. </sentence><sentence id="1622">A closed <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> was established in May 1941. </sentence><sentence id="1623">The <span class="populated place">Jewish community</span> was liquidated throughout the month of November 1942, when 12,000 Jews from the <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> and the <span class="region">vicinity</span> were sent to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> on four <span class="spatial object">transports</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1624">Encyclopaedia Judaica, s.v. " </sentence><sentence id="1625"><span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1626">>> <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> (<span class="populated place">Auschwitz II</span>), subcamp of <span class="populated place">Auschwitz concentration camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1627"> know plenty, pots of pans, especially pots of pans. </sentence><sentence id="1628">People used to make double <span class="interior space">decks</span> and they hid some money in the <span class="spatial object">pots</span> or double <span class="spatial object">suitcases</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1629">And then here comes big Mr.Eichmann"". </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1649">Q: How did you know that's who it was? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1651">A: Later it I found out. </sentence><sentence id="1652">I never knew, I never knew anybody, no. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1655">Q: Had you heard any stories yet? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1657">A: No, no way. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1659">Q: You knew nothing? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1661">A: No way. </sentence><sentence id="1662">In <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span> there was a rumor that the they sending people to, they call it a <span class="spatial object">fry pan</span>, you mean they put people in the <span class="interior space">room</span> and the <span class="interior space">floor</span> turns over, and they get murder, so they call it a <span class="spatial object">frying pan</span> because a <span class="spatial object">frying pan</span> you flip over. </sentence><sentence id="1663">36 Never knew; nobody ever escape, never knew nothing. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1667">Q: So when you arrive and see these people in uniforms and Germans, what's going through your mind? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1669">A: We just didn't know who these people are, and then they speak Jewish(tm), I said my God, people speak Jewish here, what is this? </sentence><sentence id="1670">It's a paradise. </sentence><sentence id="1671">People from <span class="region">Eretz Israel</span>"> maybe, you know, or something, because they spoke Jewish, "come out, come out," and all. </sentence><sentence id="1672">Didn't give any indication whatsoever. </sentence><sentence id="1673">Then it's ordered "women left, men right" or vice versa, separate men and women. </sentence><sentence id="1674">Then the women and children were taken away, don't know where. </sentence><sentence id="1675">Then comes men, you know, and I stay with my two brothers, try to make myself nice and tall and he says you know, pointing to two brothers on one side and two on the other side. </sentence><sentence id="1676">I go, what do I know. </sentence><sentence id="1677">And I stand for a while and I look and -- first thinking, I see on the other side my two brothers are, about 45 boys, nice strong, and I'm between all people and children. </sentence><sentence id="1678">And my brothers indicating to me like that, from far away. </sentence><sentence id="1679">And I couldn't find a moment because the soldiers are were marching forth and back and watching, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1680">And once the soldier passed me by and I snucked over to my brother, and he put me between him and the other one, they kept me there. </sentence><sentence id="1681">And ina few minutes they told us to jog. </sentence><sentence id="1682">And then we see <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> "Arbeit Macht Frei""deg into 3 Adolf Eichmann (1906-1962), Nazi official who played central role in the organizing and execution of the "Final Solution." </sentence><sentence id="1683">Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, s.v. " </sentence><sentence id="1684">Eichmann." * </sentence><sentence id="1685">Yiddish. </sentence><sentence id="1686">>> Land of <span class="country">Israel</span> (Hebrew). </sentence><sentence id="1687">deg6 Work Makes Free (German); infamous sign posted above the main <span class="dlf">entrance</span> to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz concentration camp</span> in the <span class="populated place">camp</span>, and I was the youngest of the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1688">And the part where I was, at that time they did not need any woman at the <span class="populated place">working camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1689">So all the woman were destroyed immediately, <span class="interior space">gas chambers</span>, my mother, my sisters, and then the people where I was put, the older men and the children. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1713">Q: Now, did you know this, or did it take some time for you to find out about your mother and sisters? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1715">A: Later, later I found out, because we were speaking with people that work -- that work Sonderkommando"", Sonderkommando means they were putting people in the <span class="spatial object">oven</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1716">So some people had indirect contact and they said the <span class="spatial object">transport</span> from <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> came so, you know, women came to <span class="populated place">labor camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1717">So then we came to find out. </sentence><sentence id="1718">So here we come into <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>, and people, you know, they put us up in <span class="building">barracks</span>, and the <span class="spatial object">beds</span> are made so nice and straight, and everybody is afraid that they would not be able to make the <span class="spatial object">bed</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1719">That came existed from before, you know, and German criminals were then political and the <span class="spatial object">beds</span> was straw sacks, and everybody got two boards to make the <span class="dlf">edges</span> so straight and the pillow and the blankets had a stripe, and it was like a one hundred <span class="spatial object">beds</span> and one stripe. </sentence><sentence id="1720">So many of them were afraid because we are given orders and people start asking questions, and then I shot off my big mouth in Polish, "What's the matter with you, don't you understand what they talking to you." </sentence><sentence id="1721">And one guy heard me and he said, "Come over here little boy, where are you from?" </sentence><sentence id="1722">I says, "I'm from <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>." " </sentence><sentence id="1723">Oh, I'm from <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span> too." </sentence><sentence id="1724">It was a Polish guy who was the bookkeeper here. </sentence><sentence id="1725">And then right away, "Here's a piece of bread, here's a bowl of soup," and right away I'm a whole macher"* there, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1726">And I share it with my bothers, you know, and then they tell us to take off our clothes, it was frosty, completely naked, and the frost was -- our feet were glued. </sentence><sentence id="1727">And sent into the <span class="spatial object">shower</span>, shave the heads -- the <span class="spatial object">shower</span>, and come out the other way, and we got striped clothes and we got our <span class="spatial object">bowl</span>. " </sentence><sentence id="1728">This is your property." </sentence><sentence id="1729">Then we went for the numbers. </sentence><sentence id="1730">They put the numbers, I talked to my brothers and I say, "We going to show you one day in the <span class="country">United States</span>, I didn't even know <span class="country">United States</span> exist." </sentence><sentence id="1731">So my brother got "630," I got "631," and my older brother, he curious, walked away, and we never saw him again. </sentence><sentence id="1732">They counted out 50 people and took him away to <span class="dlf">coal mines</span> to another <span class="populated place">camp</span>, never saw him again. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1751">Q: What were you thinking in all this process? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1752">A: I was thinking what's going on, we came to a <span class="populated place">camp</span>, we are going to be kept, we are going to work, and until <span class="country">America</span> will happen, something will be over. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1753">Q: You thought this was just a <span class="populated place">labor camp</span>, it wasn't going to be so bad? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1755">A: Yes, I thought it was just a <span class="populated place">labor camp</span>, and right away they took care of me, I didn't have to suffer any hunger, nobody was beating me up, you know, and we didn't have to work even, it was only -- <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> was only a passing. </sentence><sentence id="1756">We were there about three days. </sentence><sentence id="1757">Then we were walked off to <span class="populated place">Buna</span>", to another <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1758">We walk, and half the way, again we have to go into a place where they took our clothes and put it in the <span class="spatial object">oven</span> to disinfect it, to disinfect it, you know, and this was the <span class="interior space">dirty room</span> and over there was the <span class="interior space">clean room</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1759">So, a part of the people walked from the -- they went in the <span class="interior space">shower</span>, and everything, they were waiting. </sentence><sentence id="1760">And the people on this <span class="region">side</span> wanted to know what's going on. </sentence><sentence id="1761">So it was one of my cousins there, he says [draws forefinger across neck]. </sentence><sentence id="1762">I said "no, nice," and I show him a sign that they are not killing us, you know, just <span class="interior space">shower</span> and disinfect so we are nice and clean. </sentence><sentence id="1763">And we went to <span class="populated place">Buna</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1764">We went to <span class="populated place">Buna</span> and we went to a quarantine again. </sentence><sentence id="1765">That was a <span class="populated place">camp</span> quarantine. </sentence><sentence id="1766">And again, I was the youngest, so they made me clean the <span class="dlf">block</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1767">It was a blockiltester*(r), the head of the <span class="dlf">block</span>, of the <span class="building">barrack</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1768">And he had a little <span class="interior space">room</span> for himself with a bookkeeper, so he told me, "You going to be like my maid." </sentence><sentence id="1769">You know, every day I had to dust and clean and clean, and clean and dust, and help, like keep the spoon in the <span class="spatial object">pot</span>, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1770">Cut the bread, make rations, and hand out the soup, hand out the potatoes, and try to put a little bit aside, and every night I give to my brothers a little bit more. </sentence><sentence id="1771">So in quarantine you had to be like a certain time, and then you walked out to <span class="populated place">labor camp</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1789">Q: How long was the quarantine? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1791">A: I think a few weeks, about four weeks or so, you know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1793">Q: Do you know what happened to your cousin or? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1795">A: I didn't see him any more. </sentence><sentence id="1796">When the quarantine was finished, this brother Joe worked <span class="populated place">labor camp</span>, and they asked me if I want to remain where I am or if I want to go to <span class="populated place">labor camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1797">I says sure I want to remain where I am, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1798">So I found a piece of bread, some potatoes my brother used to come every night I used to give him something and others. </sentence><sentence id="1799">And during that time a <span class="spatial object">transport</span> came, and my oldest brother, that remained in <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>, came also. </sentence><sentence id="1800">When he came, so, I was begging him, "David, whatever you do, try not to drink the <span class="env feature">water</span> here, because it's very contaminated." </sentence><sentence id="1801">But he was thirsty, from the way he was drinking, he wouldn't listen to me, and also an excellent tailor so he made the >>>> <span class="populated place">Buna-Monowitz</span> (<span class="populated place">Auschwitz III</span>), subcamp of <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. * </sentence><sentence id="1802">deg Block elder (German). </sentence><sentence id="1803"> hat for the blockaltester, but one of these people brought typhus with him, they took the whole <span class="spatial object">transport</span> and send them back, and my brother had to go back to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> with them. </sentence><sentence id="1804">And while he was marching he met his brother and he said they are taking him back to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, we are not going to see each other any more. </sentence><sentence id="1805">They took him to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1806">A few days later they brought another <span class="spatial object">transport</span>, again typhus, and then they took everybody already even the people that were the supervisors and me too, to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, and right away I run look for my brother there and he was already taken to <span class="building">crematorium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1807">He was gassed because he was sick. </sentence><sentence id="1808">I didn't see him. </sentence><sentence id="1809">And then <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> I remained. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1826">Q: Your other brother, Icek? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1828">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="1829">He remained in <span class="populated place">Buna</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1832">Q: He wasn't in the quarantine? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1834">A: He was for the part that was required. </sentence><sentence id="1835">Then he went to <span class="populated place">labor camp</span>, but I had -- they kept asking me, and asked me if I want to remain in the quarantine to do these little chores. </sentence><sentence id="1836">I said "Of course, why not, I don't want to go to the hard labor. </sentence><sentence id="1837">In here, what I do -- I keep the place clean." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1842">Q: Let me ask you a question about <span class="populated place">Buna</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1844">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1846">Q: In some of the reading that I've done, it said that one of the <span class="building">factories</span> in <span class="populated place">Buna</span> was making rubber. </sentence><sentence id="1847">Do you know anything about that? </sentence><sentence id="1848">Your brother said they were more involved with fuel and kerosene, or something of that. </sentence><sentence id="1849">I had read that there was a big <span class="building">synthetics rubber plant</span> over there. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1854">A: There was the <span class="building">I. G. Farben</span>*!, </sentence><sentence id="1855"><span class="building">Farben</span>, but <span class="building">rubber plant</span> I don't know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1858">Q: You don't know about that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1860">A: I don't know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1862">Q: That was one of the <span class="building">I.G. Farben businesses</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1864">A: Could be, could be, could be. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1865"> 3! </sentence><sentence id="1866">German limited company that was a conglomerate of eight leading German chemical manufacturers. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1867"> Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, s.v. " </sentence><sentence id="1868"><span class="building">I. G. Farben</span>." </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1869">Q: Okay, please continue. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1870">A: So then I remained in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, and doing all kinds of jobs. </sentence><sentence id="1871">And again I met a landsman*", you know, and little by little, if you remain in one <span class="populated place">camp</span> for long period of time, you get into a group, and you get an outlet a little bit to organize and to find a better place of work only where food was available. </sentence><sentence id="1872">Like once there was a Dachdeck- Kommando (ph), which means a roof Kommando(tm), and you had a chance to put a <span class="dlf">roof</span> on the <span class="interior space">kitchen</span>, work near the <span class="interior space">kitchen</span>, so a piece of bread, little potatoes, or gone to the <span class="populated place">women's camp</span> where you work in the <span class="populated place">women's camp</span>, you know, and then there were girls, the hired girls, that had the little position like, "Here boy, here is piece of bread," like playing little, little flirtation. </sentence><sentence id="1873">There was nothing you could do, because God forbid you get caught talking to a woman, was bad for both them they were not allowed to talk us. </sentence><sentence id="1874">And then finally I got a job to work with what they called <span class="populated place">Kanada</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1875">That was the cleanup <span class="building">Kommando</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1876">In other words, whatever the people brought on the <span class="spatial object">transport</span> we had to assort. </sentence><sentence id="1877">Shoes separate, shirt separate, pants separate, and big, big <span class="spatial object">wooden box</span> where you had to put valuables in. </sentence><sentence id="1878">So naturally if you found a hundred dollar bill or a gold coin, took it put in it in the <span class="spatial object">condom</span>, sticked it up, brought it into the <span class="populated place">camp</span>, and traded for a bread for, you know, some people had connection with Polish civilian people that they brought the kielbasa, salami, bread, a bottle of vodka, and that's how we survived all those months. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1888">Q: How many months were you with the Kanada group? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1890">A: A few months, not many months, not many months. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1892">Q: Was it weird to be sorting out all these personal belongings? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1894">A: You get, you get accustom to it. </sentence><sentence id="1895">You get accustom. </sentence><sentence id="1896">It's just the part of it. </sentence><sentence id="1897">You know, no emotional feelings. </sentence><sentence id="1898">Now, now any little thing I cry like a baby. </sentence><sentence id="1899">But then, I could see my cousin or whatever, come to <span class="populated place">camp</span>, and knew what's going to happen to him. </sentence><sentence id="1900">I was looking, "he's got a piece of bread somewhere or something if I could have something to eat," because I knew he was going to perish anyways, I knew. </sentence><sentence id="1901">You see. </sentence><sentence id="1902">What we did, what we did as a group of boys, what we do makes me feel good. </sentence><sentence id="1903">We also used to go to the <span class="dlf">ramp</span> when the <span class="spatial object">transport</span> came. </sentence><sentence id="1904">But we knew already what's going on, so when we saw a young woman with a child, with her mother, we took the child and gave it to her mother and say, "You hold it, it's better." </sentence><sentence id="1905">We didn't tell her why, because we knew if Eichmann sees a woman with a child, she is she goes to <span class="building">crematorium</span> immediately, and the mother is an older woman, has no chance anyways. </sentence><sentence id="1906">So, we gave her the child and we >> Fellow countryman (Yiddish). </sentence><sentence id="1907">3 commando (German) able to send -- to save the woman, and she go to <span class="populated place">labor camp</span> and she could survive. </sentence><sentence id="1908">Now one thing is going to be with me as long as I live. </sentence><sentence id="1909">Here comes a <span class="spatial object">Hungarian transport</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1910">By the end a lot of Hungarian. </sentence><sentence id="1911">I don't remember now again the year, whether it was "43 or something, it was the last evacuation of Hungarians; two at daytime, two at nighttime. </sentence><sentence id="1912">One <span class="spatial object">transport</span> came, apparently they knew what's going on. </sentence><sentence id="1913">When they came out of the <span class="spatial object">train</span>, it was during the night you could see the flames of the <span class="building">crematorium</span> ten feet above the <span class="dlf">chimney</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1914">People just put on their praying shawls, you know, and say the last prayer. </sentence><sentence id="1915">Apparently they knew. </sentence><sentence id="1916">It was such a chaos -- chaos? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1941">Q: Chaotic. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1943">A: You have, you know, we got all so emotional, and people are screaming and crying, and even the German soldiers got afraid they shouldn't be all right. " </sentence><sentence id="1944">Go," I say, "don't worry, don't worry, be fine." </sentence><sentence id="1945">And this other woman, "Oh Mutele*, soon you going to get, going to get a <span class="interior space">shower</span>, going to put you in nice clean <span class="spatial object">bed</span>, don't worry, just move ahead, just go, just go." </sentence><sentence id="1946">Here I walk over, and this young girl stays close to her mother, and I take her by the hand and I say, "You come and stay on the other hand." </sentence><sentence id="1947">And she takes me by my chin in Jewish and says, "I'm 18 years old, I didn't love in my life yet. </sentence><sentence id="1948">Why do you take me to death already? </sentence><sentence id="1949">Why you take me to death?" </sentence><sentence id="1950">You know, like I would be the one. </sentence><sentence id="1951">I says "No, no, what you talking about? </sentence><sentence id="1952">You come with me you see, you'll be fine. </sentence><sentence id="1953">I put you among all these young people." </sentence><sentence id="1954">I was able to save her, and she went through <span class="populated place">labor camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1955">But apparently she got crazy and she got destroyed, because I was able to, to, to come into the <span class="building">women's</span>, come into the <span class="populated place">women's camp</span> once in a while by exchanging with somebody else that was carrying the <span class="spatial object">kettles</span> with food. </sentence><sentence id="1956">So when somebody came into the <span class="populated place">camp</span> with the food, I say you stay here today, I give them something and I took the food, and I wanted to see if she survived. </sentence><sentence id="1957">She survived a few days, but she got crazy. </sentence><sentence id="1958">This scene will remain with me for as long as I live. </sentence><sentence id="1959">I was not emotional then, but she put such a guilt trip on me, and she said, "Why do you hate me? </sentence><sentence id="1960">Why do you want me to die?" </sentence><sentence id="1961">she says, "I'm only 18." </sentence><sentence id="1962">This was terrible. </sentence><sentence id="1963">And the Germans are running so much that when I thought they had no <span class="interior space">room</span> in the <span class="interior space">gas chambers</span>, it was so active, that before every <span class="building">crematorium</span> the dug a big <span class="dlf">hole</span> very, very big, and it was burning fire and they used to put the people on <span class="dlf">blocks</span> break up alive, into the fires burn them alive, the Hungarian <span class="spatial object">transports</span>.* </sentence><sentence id="1964">> That was already way before the allied started to approach. </sentence><sentence id="1965">And now, as I told you, my first miracle is when I escaped to go to <span class="populated place">Treblinka</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1966">The second miracle was when I came to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1967">Here I am a worker now, and this SS woman is walking around always and looking and looking, and with her whip against her boots like that walking around like you know, proud and looking, looking taking numbers down, and she points at me to put my number down. </sentence><sentence id="1968">Because I was in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, I was not a Muslim *4 Mother -- diminutive (Yiddish). </sentence><sentence id="1969">>> May 9, 1944, SS Camp Senior Rudolf Hess orders five open <span class="dlf">crematoria pits</span> dug near <span class="building">Auschwitz-Birkenau Crematoria V</span>, in order to accommodate the overflow generated by the mass transport of Hungarian Jews. </sentence><sentence id="1970">Danuta Czech, <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> Chronicle, 1939-1945 (<span class="populated place">New York</span>: H. Holt, 1990), 622. </sentence><sentence id="1971"> man. </sentence><sentence id="1972">A Muslim man means bones and skin, I had nice brown skin always. </sentence><sentence id="1973">She takes my number down, now the blockaltester knew why she takes my number down, they wouldn't tell me, but there was a request of sending out of <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> a few hundred people to another <span class="populated place">camp</span>, to <span class="populated place">Stutthof</span>, and he puts me there. </sentence><sentence id="1974">And then he told me, "She took your number, she wants your skin to make a bag or gloves or something," and he sent me away. </sentence><sentence id="1975">And I escaped that, because they were making bags and gloves and lamp shades from our skins. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2012">Q: How did you know this, or did you know this at the time? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2014">A: I didn't know at the time, but later when they evacuated the complete <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, that blockaltester came also, because blockaltesters, you see, they were all my inmates, you see we were all run by inmates. </sentence><sentence id="2015">We got a <span class="building">barrack</span>, you got a blockaltester, and then you got a stubendienst*(r), somebody to see that it's clean, you know, that the <span class="spatial object">beds</span> are made and all that. </sentence><sentence id="2016">When <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> was evacuated, then they took so many.*" </sentence><sentence id="2017">But when the Allies -- Russian were pushing, then they send us. </sentence><sentence id="2018">So, my first was <span class="populated place">Stutthof</span>, from <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> of <span class="populated place">Stutthof</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2024">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="2025">I want to -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2028">A: And he came also, and he told me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2030">Q: He told you how they were using the <span class="spatial object">skins</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2032">A: He told me, ""You know why I send you here? </sentence><sentence id="2033">You remember she wrote your name down." </sentence><sentence id="2034">So I says, "Why, what is it?" </sentence><sentence id="2035">He says, "She wants to make a nice purse or gloves or a bag from you." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2040">Q: Did anybody that you know actually see this happening? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2042">A: No, you know, they just took the boys, did whatever they had to do. </sentence><sentence id="2043">Who could see? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2046">Q: But the prisoners -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2048">A: No. </sentence><sentence id="2049">Like they were castrating Jewish boys.** </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2052">Q: How did you know this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="2054"> degdeg <span class="building">Barracks</span> duty (German). </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2055"> 57 In mid-January 1945, the SS began evacuating the <span class="populated place">Auschwitz camps</span> system -- some 60,000 prisoners were sent on </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2056"> death march to <span class="populated place">concentration camps</span> further <span class="region">west</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2057">United States <span class="building">Holocaust Memorial Museum</span>, Historical Atlas of </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2058"> the Holocaust (<span class="populated place">New York</span>: <span class="building">Macmillan</span>, 1996), 205. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2059"> *8 Numerous prisoners of <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> were castrated as part of the sterilization experiments carried out by Dr. Horst </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2060"> Shumann and Prof. Carl Clauberg, among others. </sentence><sentence id="2061">Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, s.v. " </sentence><sentence id="2062">medical experiments." </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2063">A: Because what's his name, Morris, Morris he was a cook. </sentence><sentence id="2064">He was a cook. </sentence><sentence id="2065">His testicles were taken out, because he was with me in a few <span class="populated place">camps</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2066">So, I knew that he was taken, that he was taken, and then he said, "They put me to sleep, and whatever they did." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2071">Q: And he was aware that there were other boys -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2073">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2075">Q: -- that were in the same -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2077">A: Yes, yes, he was aware of that, because as a matter of fact I was friendly with him. </sentence><sentence id="2078">He was always a cook, and he always cook. </sentence><sentence id="2079">So after when we would send food from one <span class="populated place">camp</span> to another <span class="populated place">camp</span>, I was maybe in 15 of them, but I don't know the locations because they used to send boys to build <span class="dlf">air strips</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2080">It means take big stones, break them up, make gravel, and then cover with cement. </sentence><sentence id="2081">And every <span class="populated place">camp</span> had a little <span class="interior space">kitchen</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2082">So, Morris was a chef -- <span class="interior space">kitchen</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2083">So, I remember one day as we were walking, walking through <span class="populated place">German village</span>, I saw an apple on the <span class="env feature">ground</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2084">I ran out and grabbed the apple and put it in my pocket. </sentence><sentence id="2085">I think I'm going to give it to Morris that night and bribed him, you know, he had all the soup and all the potatoes he needs -- but an apple. </sentence><sentence id="2086">So, night at he came in to the <span class="building">barracks</span>; I said, "Here Morris I have an apple for you." </sentence><sentence id="2087">So, for several days he brought me baked potatoes. </sentence><sentence id="2088">Took raw potatoes and threw them in the fire. </sentence><sentence id="2089">And one day they needed boys to peel potatoes, and he took me. </sentence><sentence id="2090">One day the German took a <span class="spatial object">truck</span> and went with two boys to the <span class="populated place">village</span> so the baker gave bread for the <span class="building">barrack</span>, so he took me also. </sentence><sentence id="2091">So the German gave me whole loaf of bread. </sentence><sentence id="2092">I ate it up at once, because I had a bad experience with my men that slept with me, because I was a terrific worker, I always told to my -- you -- always a group, that we slept on the same <span class="spatial object">platform</span> -- try to avoid to get beaten up -- "Do as much as you can." </sentence><sentence id="2093">So, we work to please the contractor. </sentence><sentence id="2094">The contractor had to make so many trips with his <span class="spatial object">truck</span> with stones, could so he could make more money. </sentence><sentence id="2095">So I don't know at the time whether it was Christmas or something, he gave me like almost three quarter loaf of bread. </sentence><sentence id="2096">So I figure, "I'm going to add a little bit to my every day rations." </sentence><sentence id="2097">Because once I went to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> I was in trouble: No connections, no nothing no food, nothing to organize. </sentence><sentence id="2098">So I depend on my strength and pleasing the civilian contractors, and they give me a nice piece of bread. </sentence><sentence id="2099">And then at night I who to go use the big -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2123">Q: <span class="interior space">Latrine</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2125">A: Yeah, to urinate. </sentence><sentence id="2126">Two minutes I came back, the bread was gone. </sentence><sentence id="2127">He swallowed it so fast, he stole it from me. </sentence><sentence id="2128">So I said to myself, "Next time anything I get, I don't save, in here it is the safest." </sentence><sentence id="2129">And that poor man died in my eyes also, he didn't survive, Meir Bornstein (ph), he was French, from -- French Jew. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2130">Q: After you left -- </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2131">A: <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2133">Q: No. </sentence><sentence id="2134">I want to stay a little bit longer. </sentence><sentence id="2135">You left -- you stayed in the <span class="region">quarantine area</span> longer? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2139">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2141">Q: And then, when you left, you went directly to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2143">A: <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2145">Q: You were there fairly early. </sentence><sentence id="2146">Did you get involved in building anything, in -- since a lot of the <span class="populated place">camp</span> wasn't yet finished? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2149">A: The only thing that was built was the <span class="populated place">Gypsy camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2150">An...another complete <span class="populated place">camp</span> was added. </sentence><sentence id="2151">That was -- <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> was <span class="populated place">D camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2152">A, B, C, <span class="env feature">D</span>, and then they were building <span class="populated place">Gypsy camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2153">It was <span class="building">building</span> it was just -- yes, it was putting together <span class="building">barracks</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2154">Putting together <span class="building">barracks</span> that were prefabricated. </sentence><sentence id="2155">We didn't know for what. </sentence><sentence id="2156">It was prefabricated. </sentence><sentence id="2157">We put them together every day, you know, <span class="building">Kommando</span> means Baukommando -- <span class="building">building</span> <span class="building">Kommando</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2158">We used to go there and help put the <span class="building">barracks</span> together. </sentence><sentence id="2159">There were natural German civilian foremen, you know, and some professionals. </sentence><sentence id="2160">It was very simple, a wooden <span class="building">barrack</span>, no <span class="dlf">windows</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2161">And some German inmates became blockaltesters -- blockaltesters means elders of the <span class="dlf">block</span> -- and they were by themselves to build an <span class="building">office</span> for them, like -- I mean not an <span class="building">office</span>, a separate <span class="interior space">room</span>, a stube(r)", and they built an <span class="spatial object">oven</span>, an <span class="spatial object">oven</span> made out of bricks throughout the length of the <span class="building">barrack</span>, just so high to be heated with wood, and then it was finished. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2175">Q: This was in a separate <span class="region">area</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2177">A: In <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, but another <span class="populated place">camp</span> like, it was like <span class="populated place">camp A</span>, B, C, D, D was where I was, the <span class="populated place">D Lager</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2178">And then it was the <span class="populated place">Gypsy camp</span>." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2181">Q: So the Gypsy -- did you know it was for Gypsies? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2183">A: I don't know, but then a lot of Gypsies came, men and woman came together and they were kept there. </sentence><sentence id="2184">They kept there for a while, and overnight one night they were destroyed. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2185"> * <span class="interior space">Room</span> (German). </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2186"> * A separate <span class="dlf">block</span> for Gypsy families was established on February 26, 1943, when the first large <span class="spatial object">transport</span> of </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2187"> Gypsies arrived in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2188">Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, s.v. " </sentence><sentence id="2189">Gypsies." </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2190">Q: Did you have any contact with the Gypsies? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2191">A: No, just my first girlfriend was a Gypsy. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2193">Q: Well? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2195">A: German, German Gypsies from <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2197">Q: You mean? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2199">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2201">Q: In that <span class="populated place">camp</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2203">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2205">Q: Because you were there fairly early, did you have a sense of the overall structure of <span class="populated place">Auschwitz Birkenau</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="2207"> A <span class="building">Structure</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2209">Q: Well, I mean there were these different <span class="populated place">camps</span>, and there were things going on in different places? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2211">A: No, they were all the same. </sentence><sentence id="2212"><span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> was practically the same, the same <span class="building">barracks</span>, you know. </sentence><sentence id="2213">They all look the same. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2217">Q: But in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> was where the <span class="building">crematoria</span> were? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2219">A: <span class="building">Crematoria</span>, yes. </sentence><sentence id="2220">We didn't get to see them. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2223">Q: You never saw the <span class="building">crematoria</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2225">A: No, we didn't. </sentence><sentence id="2226">We saw the <span class="env feature">flames</span> from a distance. </sentence><sentence id="2227">I could smell like Sunday -- we didn't work, you know -- or at night you go out, you saw the flames. </sentence><sentence id="2228">And the people they put in the <span class="spatial object">oven</span>, we couldn't get in touch with them also, because they were kept in a separate <span class="building">barrack</span>, they called that Sonderkommando. </sentence><sentence id="2229">And every few months they used to put them in an <span class="spatial object">oven</span> and get new, until they make an <span class="building">uprise</span>, this Sonderkommando. </sentence><sentence id="2230">They were to go up and got hold of some guns, but it was very fast made "hush, hush." "! </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2231"> *" October 7, 1944, Sonderkommando unit in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz-Birkenau</span> Crematoria IV stage uprising which destroys </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2232"> <span class="building">crematoria facility</span> -- all participants are captured and executed. </sentence><sentence id="2233">Jean-Claude Pessac with Robert-Jan Van Pelt, "The </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2234"> Machinery of Mass Murder at <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>," in Anatomy of the <span class="populated place">Auschwitz Death Camp</span>, ed. </sentence><sentence id="2235">Yisrael Gutman and Michael </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2236"> <span class="populated place">Berenbaum</span> (<span class="populated place">Bloomington</span>, Indian </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2237">Q: Did you see people going by you, going to the <span class="building">crematoria</span>? </sentence><sentence id="2238">Or groups? </sentence><sentence id="2239">Anything like that, when they passed by you or...? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2240">A: Well, when they were taken there were selections held, you know, selections held once in a while see who still has some meat on them, like everyone had to get naked outside you know, and Mengele", Dr. Mengele came out, and you had to present yourself, either you were sent to the <span class="building">barrack</span> or sent on the side. </sentence><sentence id="2241">The ones that sent on the side, they went to <span class="dlf">block</span> number seven, seven, and they put a "L" on them here. "" </sentence><sentence id="2242">L" means generally means "leiche" -- in English would mean "corpse." </sentence><sentence id="2243">They put in that <span class="dlf">block</span>, and from then they put them in a <span class="spatial object">truck</span> and into the <span class="building">crematorium</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2248">Q: You went through these selections often? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2250">A: Oh, yes, quiet often. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2252">Q: How often? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2254">A: Oh, many times, every few months; but I managed to -- once I got -- another miracle I escaped. </sentence><sentence id="2255">Once I got pneumonia in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, and I went to <span class="building">hospital</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2256">And there were two Jewish doctors from <span class="populated place">Krakow</span>, and I remember they listen to me, and they made a picture of my lungs with little points, you know, they had no x-rays or anything, and they told me, "one thing will save you, you have to get some calcium." </sentence><sentence id="2257">Calcium you could only get injections from somebody who worked in <span class="populated place">Kanada</span>, and in <span class="populated place">Kanada</span> they had a little <span class="interior space">room</span> where all the <span class="spatial object">trucks</span> came in they kept them there separately. </sentence><sentence id="2258">So one of the men that I was friendly with got hold of calcium injections and put it in his <span class="interior space">rectum</span> and brought it to me, and the doctors injected me, and I came out of it. </sentence><sentence id="2259">But during that time was a selection, it was selection, but they manage to hide me. </sentence><sentence id="2260">They confuse the number, somehow they confuse the number of the sick people minus less, minus one, and I got away. </sentence><sentence id="2261">And then I got better again. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2270">Q: What about the selections, you said you were in them every few months, but were they happening more often than that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2272">A: When there were enough sick people when they couldn't go to work, there were quite often, I don't exactly know, we didn't know what the purpose was, he says everybody up, you know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2274">Q: And was Mengele involved in all of them? </sentence><sentence id="2275"> A I have no idea, but I knew that he was the main doctor, because when I went -- when I went and I was so sick with fever, I knew that one boy, one boy went or man, he had done something with his finger, you know, I don't know what he, just took a scissor and cut and cut and cut to the bone. </sentence><sentence id="2276">No injection or nothing. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2277">Q: Were you aware of any of the medical experimentation that you read about now? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2279">A: I saw -- I don't know the experimentation, I saw one boy, there was a young boy running around in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>, it was a Polish boy, because once in a while they kept children -- I didn't know the reason then, like they kept in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> they kept two Rabbis two Greek Rabbis with beards, and used to allow them to pray in the shawls and made movies. </sentence><sentence id="2280">Now I know it was for propaganda, so this boy was running around. </sentence><sentence id="2281">All of a sudden I heard that the boy dropped dead. </sentence><sentence id="2282">So there was a <span class="building">barrack</span> where they did the experiments and I looked through a little <span class="dlf">pea hole</span>, it was like the <span class="dlf">door</span> there was <span class="interior space">spaces</span>, and I saw they were cutting him. </sentence><sentence id="2283">And I saw the they cut the scalp and pulled the skin over, I saw it, and there were -- they took off the part of the scalp and I saw there was a big tumor on the brain, I saw it that with my own eyes, and I knew the reason they wanted to find out why he died. </sentence><sentence id="2284">But to come back to the -- to the -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2291">Q: Experimenting? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2293">A: Experimenting, I knew they going on, but I did not witness them because they were in all closed places. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2295">Q: How did you know they were going on? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2297">A: How I know they was going on, to tell you the truth, I didn't. </sentence><sentence id="2298">I just found out later. </sentence><sentence id="2299">During my being there I didn't know, I didn't know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2303">Q: When you were with this Kanada group, how come you had to leave there? </sentence><sentence id="2304">Did people have sort of a set time you were there? </sentence><sentence id="2305">Did you get privileges? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2309">A: No, no, no, no, how come I leave it was because eventually <span class="spatial object">transport</span> ceased, you know? </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2310">They stop coming, so they didn't need us any more, and then as the Allies start to approach, we were evacuated and took to <span class="populated place">Stutthof</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2311">Really it was a privilege to work there, to get to go there, an that <span class="building">Kommando</span> was a big privilege because there was there was maybe 130 people, everybody was wanting to work there because you could wear any clothes you wanted, good shoes, good clean shirts, and there was -- ladies were working there also, so everybody got somebody friendly, and every Friday this girl gave you a clean shirt. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2312">Q: Did you tell me how you were chosen to work there? </sentence><sentence id="2313">On that -- in that...? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2314">A: How I was chosen to work on that? </sentence><sentence id="2315">I think recommendation by the <span class="building">blockaltester</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2316">Recommendation that ask the Kapo(tm) -- Zep, Zep (ph) was his name, ""Why don't you take him." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2320">Q: You started to mention Sunday, you said it was not a workday. </sentence><sentence id="2321">What happened on a typical Sunday? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2324">A: On a typical Sunday. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2326">Q: Was it a day of rest? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2328">A: It was a day of rest, it was a day of taking the lice off the clothes, sitting down and try to... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2330">Q: That's mostly what you did on Sundays? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2332">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2334">Q: Do you -- what do you remember any humor, any enjoyment, any activities in the <span class="populated place">camp</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2336">A: No, there were no humor because everybody was that hungry, you know, everybody was --Ihave death. </sentence><sentence id="2337">The own entertainment was the <span class="dlf">gates</span> when you walked out or walked in, the music, the orchestra was playing. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2340">Q: What was it playing? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2342">A: A march, march songs. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2344">Q: The Germans would play the songs? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2346">A: No, it was inmates, everything was inmates it was a whole band. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2348">Q: Did it sound nice? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2350">A: It sound pleasant, but who paid attention, because only as you walked by they were playing. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2352">Q: Were there any <span class="spatial object">concerts</span>? </sentence><sentence id="2353">Was there nothing like that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="2356"> * Forman (colloquial German); term used for inmates appointed by the SS to head a labor Kommando of prisoners. </sentence><sentence id="2357"> A Concert, no. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2360">Q: But your brother said that there were -- I thought he said there were sometimes music, there was sometimes soccer games? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2362">A: There was a boxing game, I remember there was a Polish guy I remember the name Czortek (ph), just for the, for the group of people for their entertainment -- for the blockaltesters. </sentence><sentence id="2363">But soccer games, I don't know of any soccer games. </sentence><sentence id="2364">Maybe in his <span class="populated place">camp</span>, not in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2368">Q: There was no special -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2370">A: No, no soccer games. </sentence><sentence id="2371">The only activity Sunday activity was to witness how people got hanged or shot, because if somebody escaped they brought them back and they hung them and we had to witnessed that. </sentence><sentence id="2372">Everybody had to see it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2376">Q: So you witnessed a lot of hangings? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2378">A: Oh, yes. </sentence><sentence id="2379">And then I remember very vividly they caught 22 Polish people, nice huge guys, six footers, very, very well. </sentence><sentence id="2380">Apparently they were listening or operating some radio system. </sentence><sentence id="2381">They got caught and they put first 11, and then another 11, at very close range they shot them dead, and the whole <span class="populated place">camp</span> had to watch it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2386">Q: At close range? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2388">A: Close range, yes, to make sure that they don't miss. </sentence><sentence id="2389">And I understand that according to the law of -- whether <span class="populated place">Geneva</span> or general law -- if somebody is being hanged and the cord breaks, the man can live. </sentence><sentence id="2390">And I saw they hang a man, twice it ripped, third time they shot him. </sentence><sentence id="2391">I don't know if it's true or not, the <span class="populated place">Geneva</span> law, if you hang somebody and the cord breaks your life is granted. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2396">Q: Now you say they have you seem to have pretty good relationships with the blockaltesters, and you seem to be able to charm them or finesse them? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2398">A: Not really, not really. </sentence><sentence id="2399">First of all in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> because I open up my mouth and I was the landsman -- somebody from <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span> and I was the youngest. </sentence><sentence id="2400">And then so when I came to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, when I came to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> there was one stubendienst -- I mean one that took care of it -- happened to be from the neighborhood <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span> that was in the <span class="populated place">camp</span> with my oldest brother, knew my oldest brother. </sentence><sentence id="2401">So I got used to him, you know, so I became friendly with him a little bit, and then he knew somebody else, and that's how you get into the little group where you get a little more, but the blockaltester, they were already set up with their own group of people. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2402">Q: How did somebody get chosen to be one of them? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2403">A: <span class="building">Stubendienst</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2405">Q: Or a <span class="dlf">block-elder</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2407">A: Well <span class="building">blockaltester</span> were German inmates. </sentence><sentence id="2408">The Germans got better positions, and his helper -- and the Lageriltester", you know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2411">Q: Were they mostly pretty horrible? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2413">A: No, not really. </sentence><sentence id="2414">Not really, not really. </sentence><sentence id="2415">Not really. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2419">Q: Some of them were decent to you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2421">A: They were decent, but they wanted respect and discipline because they had to answer to the higher authorities also. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2423">Q: But didn't they get points for treating you badly? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2425">A: No, no, no. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2427">Q: Did you have strong relationships with a lot of the other inmates? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2429">A: Not strong, but friendly, friendly we became like family, you know. </sentence><sentence id="2430">Like I go to my brothers, I was friendly with two brothers, the Brown brothers, you know, we would be looking out for one another. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2433">Q: You were? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2435">A: Yeah, you know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2437">Q: Were there situations where you had to really just steal from each other and take care of yourselves? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2439">A: Not from the immediate group, because there was no necessity, because everybody had a little bit, you know, and to steal from one another, there was nothing to steal from, unless the person was already in any minute he is dead, and the rations were given out, so another inmate is it near him and he got first to him and he took it. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2440"> " Camp elder (German); prisoner functionary appointed by SS to serve as camp representative, but answering to the </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2441"> <span class="building">SS</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2442"><span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> Chronicle, 1939-1945, 827. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2443">Q: Now, do you remember your reactions toward some of the prisoners who were treated better? </sentence><sentence id="2444">For example, prisoners of war who were in there, or German criminals who were put in the <span class="populated place">camps</span> and were given better positions? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2445">A: If I had any...? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2447">Q: Any sort of reaction to them? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2449">A: Not really, because there were -- they had their own gang again. </sentence><sentence id="2450">They had -- they were stuck with them. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2453">Q: They had power over you, didn't they? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2455">A: Oh, yes, they had power. </sentence><sentence id="2456">They could ask us shine my shoes, you know, "Here is this, here's a couple cigarettes or here's a piece of bread," because they always had a little more. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2459">Q: Wasn't that strange? </sentence><sentence id="2460">I mean, here they were in <span class="building">prison</span> as well? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2463">A: It wasn't strange because he was, he was like the boss because he was before me. </sentence><sentence id="2464">He had the priorities, you know, and you were just newcomer, hey, so had you to wait until you [gestures rising up]. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2467">Q: Were you -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2469">A: Priority. </sentence><sentence id="2470">Was a priority. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2473">Q: Were you ever aware of efforts to either resist or sabotage the hierarchy, or the Germans in the efforts -- any resistance in the <span class="populated place">camp</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2475">A: I know one thing, while I was in <span class="populated place">Buna</span>, while I was in <span class="populated place">Buna</span> a whole outfit of German soldiers in German uniforms were marched into the <span class="populated place">camp</span>, the clothes taken away and put in striped clothes just like us. </sentence><sentence id="2476">And then we wondered why, and we found out that they refused to fulfill an obligation that was against their will, never knew what, what it was, but something they asked to do and they refused, about 40 of them came into <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2477">So apparently that was a group that resisted their own people. </sentence><sentence id="2478">But the inmates, nobody resisted anything. </sentence><sentence id="2479">We were just afraid that nobody hits, us so we would got get beaten. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2485">Q: Do you remember any specific advice you were given by people who had been there longer, or any advice that you would then give to new prisoners? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2486">A: My only advice is -- was not to be hitten, and try the best not to get sick, because people used to grab anything they can, me too. </sentence><sentence id="2487">Found a bone, you know, from an animal, God knows where, that was in the in the later time, when I was hungry. </sentence><sentence id="2488">I used to burn it in the <span class="spatial object">garbage</span> and chew on it the whole day. </sentence><sentence id="2489">I had advice maybe you better go hungry and don't try to get sick. </sentence><sentence id="2490">And advice, who could give somebody advice, because it was a survival from day to day. </sentence><sentence id="2491">Somebody would say hey go over there, you could find something to eat or whatever. </sentence><sentence id="2492">It was just survival, there was -- I mean, what could anybody tell anybody. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2493">Q: Well, they might know where there might be some food? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2495">A: They kept it for themselves. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2497">Q: Let's change tapes. </sentence><sentence id="2498"> Tape #3 </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2499">Q: Do you remember, when you were in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, situations of real abuse by the people in authority? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2501">A: Yes, I got, once I got badly abused. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2503">Q: By whom? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2505">A: By the <span class="building">blockaltester</span>, by the <span class="building">blockaltester</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2506">I mean he had a complaint from outside. </sentence><sentence id="2507">Apparently I stood in <span class="dlf">line</span> twice, they were giving out, when an extra piece of bread and cigarettes, something. </sentence><sentence id="2508">Sometimes they used to give out cigarettes for workers. </sentence><sentence id="2509">And my couple, my foreman, gave me a name of somebody that deceased the day before, because everybody -- so first I went to my name, and then I went for the other guy, say I'm him, so I could get three four more cigarettes to exchange for bread. </sentence><sentence id="2510">So that there was a little boy that was working for the blockaltester or whatever, he said, "He, he was here already." </sentence><sentence id="2511">So, I start running, so I start running, and they caught me and they got my number. </sentence><sentence id="2512">So the in evening after the appell**, the blockiltester called out my number, and they hang me for 20 minutes by my hands like this. </sentence><sentence id="2513">And I developed a bad <span class="spatial object">disk</span> there, you know. </sentence><sentence id="2514">And while I was hanging they hit me on my whole body; it was pretty painful. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2525">Q: Were you screaming? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2527">A: Sure, I was crying. </sentence><sentence id="2528">But then again, I did it again where I got away, you know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2531">Q: Now you're -- you also were working in other <span class="populated place">camps</span>, yes? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2533">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2535">Q: Where? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2537">A: The other <span class="populated place">camps</span> after <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> was very, very hard work. </sentence><sentence id="2538">First of all, it was breaking up stones with a big sledge hammer into small pieces. </sentence><sentence id="2539">Once they were broken up, you had to load up <span class="spatial object">trucks</span> with them very fast. </sentence><sentence id="2540">And the <span class="spatial object">trucks</span> were driven to the <span class="dlf">air strips</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2541">And after the <span class="spatial object">trucks</span> we walked toward the <span class="dlf">air strips</span> and distributed the broken up little stones, gravel stones, nice evenly over the whole <span class="region">area</span>, as much as was necessary, as a lot. </sentence><sentence id="2542">And then we waited, waited for the <span class="spatial object">cement truck</span> to come. </sentence><sentence id="2543">And we had to go in with the feet to the cement and were given big brooms to push the cement, even out. </sentence><sentence id="2544">That was very, very hard work. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2545"> 4 roll call (German). </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2546">Q: And if you couldn't do it? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2547">A: You got beaten, you had to do it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2549">Q: Did you see beatings a lot? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2551">A: Yes, very much. </sentence><sentence id="2552">Very much because they didn't believe. </sentence><sentence id="2553">I got beaten once again, we were building <span class="dlf">railroads</span> and we had to carry on our shoulders the <span class="dlf">railroads</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2554">If we got even people then the <span class="spatial object">load</span> even up. </sentence><sentence id="2555">Once, two -- one from front of me one in back of me -- were shorter than me, so the load fell on me, and I caved in, you know, and they wouldn't believe me. </sentence><sentence id="2556">And I was hit, hit over the head. </sentence><sentence id="2557">They thought that I'm playing games. </sentence><sentence id="2558">And I told them, the guys are shorter. " </sentence><sentence id="2559">Never mind, you verfluchte Jude*(r)," It was a Belgian civilian worker that was not an inmate, he was just working for the <span class="building">German Kommando</span> in that particular <span class="region">area</span>, being paid, whatever, he bit me like anything, but things got --I got up, and next couple days they got little friendly with me because he saw I wore a coat. </sentence><sentence id="2560">I had a coat made of good material. </sentence><sentence id="2561">And inside the coat it was build in so much, and he wanted a hat -- to made the hat, you know. </sentence><sentence id="2562">So, there were two <span class="building">French tailors</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2563">He says you give them the material from inside, we going to cut it out, make a hat and get bread from him. </sentence><sentence id="2564">So we made a deal, three partners, two tailors and me. </sentence><sentence id="2565">I give them materials they sewed it and he got two loaves of bread and we split it up. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2581">Q: You were building <span class="dlf">railroad tracks</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2583">A: <span class="dlf">Railroad tracks</span> also. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2585">Q: Was this kind of activity going on throughout your whole time there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="2587"> A No, it was <span class="dlf">air strips</span> and <span class="dlf">railroad tracks</span>, <span class="dlf">air strip</span>, <span class="dlf">railroad tracks</span>, what else was there, that was practically it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2589">Q: Now, was this earlier on? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2591">A: No, that was that was already -- I think it was the last, the last that was the beginning of "45, because I remember the air raids were coming, and that was our only relief, because it was near the <span class="env feature">woods</span> where we built this <span class="dlf">air strips</span>, and when the Allies were coming, we were ordered to run into the <span class="env feature">woods</span> to hide. </sentence><sentence id="2592">When we run into the <span class="env feature">woods</span> we used to grab the leaves, dried leaves from the <span class="env feature">trees</span>, and we had the paper from the cement paper, and roll them up and we smoked just to relieve the hunger. </sentence><sentence id="2593">And the <span class="spatial object">planes</span> were coming so low, you held on to, and they were British, they were the <span class="building">Royal Air Force</span> we could see. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2594">We could almost see the pilot, they came down so low, because some <span class="spatial object">German airplanes</span> were sitting. </sentence><sentence id="2595">They just got them on the <span class="env feature">ground</span> and destroyed them. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2596"> *deg Damn Jew (German). </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2597">Q: I don't want to get too far off yet, but since you are talking about it, when you saw or heard these air raids, did you think that there was some hope that you would be rescued? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2598">A: If there was some hope, I knew a war was going on, but whether they are going to succeed, whether we are going to be liberated, that doesn't come to our mind, that didn't come to our mind. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2600">Q: Why not? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2602">A: The dream, we were so conditioned to it, that that's it, that's it, you know, that's it. </sentence><sentence id="2603">We had one wish, enough bread before we die, because we are prepared, we; I don't say me, I was never prepared for that. </sentence><sentence id="2604">Because whenever the boy ask me, "What do you think we going to survive all this?" </sentence><sentence id="2605">I says me yes, you, I don't know, swear to God. </sentence><sentence id="2606">I always had to positive attitude. </sentence><sentence id="2607">And then I couldn't picture any liberation, any, how do you start, I don't know where my mother is, I don't know where my brothers are, I'm all alone here. </sentence><sentence id="2608">I just didn't picture to resume a new life, what's it going to be, because I was kind of taken care of. </sentence><sentence id="2609">Okay, I had to go to <span class="building">work</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2610">I had to sleep in my clothes because I was afraid to take them off, wet or dry, you know. </sentence><sentence id="2611">And my feet were wet and cold all the time. </sentence><sentence id="2612">It was winter time, snow, but yet, I was programmed. </sentence><sentence id="2613">I got up in the morning got my little black coffee or a little piece of bread and I know lunch time came they brought the little thing, if I was lucky I got a little thick soup, if not I drink whatever I can. </sentence><sentence id="2614">And then I stood in front of the German, three, four feet away made a pity face, you know, while he was peeling his potatoes and throwing the peels, I used to run, grab the peels. </sentence><sentence id="2615">So, he throw me a potato sometimes, and sometimes then, just he did that [indicates grinding into <span class="env feature">ground</span>] to the peels, nobody should get them. </sentence><sentence id="2616">But always try to find some sympathy someplace, you know -- throw me a potato. </sentence><sentence id="2617">They were not allowed to do this, they were not allowed to. </sentence><sentence id="2618">But some of them had a heart. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2636">Q: Were there only things in the average day that come back to you that really stand out in your mind, the way you spent your days? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2638">A: Not really, all the same, all the same, just nothing to look forward to, you know, nothing to look forward to, just. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2640">Q: Why were these appells so difficult for people? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2642">A: Standing those many hours with the cold, just standing and waiting. </sentence><sentence id="2643">You got up in the morning, you wanted your little tea or whatever they gave you, you wanted it. </sentence><sentence id="2644">Sometimes you couldn't sleep through the night because you are so hungry. </sentence><sentence id="2645">In the morning they gave you the piece of bread with margarine and a little tea or coffee, whatever you wanted. </sentence><sentence id="2646">And they kept you hours and hours and hours, bad weather, rain, mud, you know. </sentence><sentence id="2647">There was one German in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> called <span class="populated place">Schillinger</span>"". </sentence><sentence id="2648">He was so bad, he was so bad. </sentence><sentence id="2649">Out of nowhere, he used to take people and he made us jump like a rabbit or roll over in the <span class="env feature">mud</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2650">So much punishment, unbelievable. </sentence><sentence id="2651">One day a <span class="spatial object">transport</span> came from <span class="country">Poland</span>, they told the Polish Jews, "Whoever had papers to go to <span class="country">United States</span> and missed the <span class="spatial object">ship</span>, now it's time, take all your valuables and you're going." </sentence><sentence id="2652">So people believed them. </sentence><sentence id="2653">And they brought them straight to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2654">And here goes this woman and this man, and he happened to be -- the guy, Schillinger goes to this woman and man and have an argument with them. " </sentence><sentence id="2655">Why did you fool us? </sentence><sentence id="2656">You told us so and so, and you brought us." </sentence><sentence id="2657">So this Schillinger slaps the man. </sentence><sentence id="2658">The woman grabs the gun and kills him, his own gun, and kills them."* </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2676">Q: He killed Schillinger? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2678">A: Yes, <span class="building">Schillinger</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2679">That was Yom Kipper when we heard that Schillinger got killed. </sentence><sentence id="2680">I mean we prayed merciful to for God for taking him away from us. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2684">Q: You didn't see this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2686">A: I didn't see it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2688">Q: Were there reprisals? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2690">A: Excuse me? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2692">Q: Was there sort of revenge by the Germans? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2694">A: Oh, they took them right away, everybody -- the whole <span class="spatial object">transport</span> was gassed. </sentence><sentence id="2695">But this woman, you know, unbelievable. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2698">Q: You said when you first arrived you saw Eichmann? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2700">A: I found out later that is Eichmann, you know, that...[pointing]. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2702">Q: Did -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2704">A: On the <span class="dlf">ramp</span> and made the decision who lives who dies. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2705"> 47 SS Staff Sergeant Josef Schillinger, successive appell leader and commander of outside squad for <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2706"> <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> Chronicle, 1939-1945, 821. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2707"> 8 October 23, 1943, a <span class="spatial object">transport</span> of 1,800 Polish Jews bearing passports for <span class="region">Latin America</span>, arrived via Bergen- </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2708"> <span class="populated place">Belsen concentration camp</span> in <span class="country">Poland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2709">Apparently, these so-called "exchange Jews" did not realize their destination </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2710"> and fate until arriving on the <span class="interior space">selection platform</span> at <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2711">During the processing of the female prisoners, a woman </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2712"> grabbed Schillinger's revolver, killed him and injured another SS officer. </sentence><sentence id="2713">A riot ensued and re-enforcement's were </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2714"> called who eventually subdued the women and herded them into the <span class="interior space">gas chamber</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2715"><span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> Chronicle, 1939-1945, </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2716"> 513. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2717">Q: What was he like? </sentence><sentence id="2718">A Serious, you know. </sentence><sentence id="2719">Tall, dark and handsome. </sentence><sentence id="2720">He was a nice man and he looked like a respectful man. </sentence><sentence id="2721">He didn't speak, he didn't talk, just motion [pointing] with his hands, he didn't talk. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2727">Q: So you walked out to these other places to <span class="building">work</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2729">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2731">Q: Any particular experiences that stand out as you worked at all these other <span class="dlf">sites</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2733">A: Well, we used to -- there was a <span class="populated place">camp</span> near <span class="populated place">Stuttgart</span> we used to go to <span class="building">work</span> every day, and we had to go to a <span class="populated place">village</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2734">And very, very often, very often, German woman used to come out and holding something in there, and waited to get okay from the SS that was accompanying us, and they used to throw out bread, piece of bread in fronts of us, or in the middle, whoever could grab it, if the soldiers give the permission, otherwise they would turn return their goods. </sentence><sentence id="2735">Many of them they did allow. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2739">Q: I wonder why? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2741">A: Some had a heart, because the ones that watched us, they were not young soldiers, they were mens in the 60s, fathers, you know, so maybe they are -- and just what -- was not SS, there was the Wehrmacht", I don't even know the difference. </sentence><sentence id="2742">I mean the <span class="building">SS</span> was the closest -- the most supportive to Hitler, and the other one was just like reserve. </sentence><sentence id="2743">Were older men that could hardly carry their rifle. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2747">Q: Do you think the people that you passed as you went through the <span class="populated place">villages</span> had a clue what was going on inside? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2749">A: If they had a clue what's going on? </sentence><sentence id="2750">I don't know that they knew about the destruction, the gassing, the burning. </sentence><sentence id="2751">They knew that we are inmates to do labor work for them. </sentence><sentence id="2752">And when the they sad the way some of us look, and maybe some of the soldiers were talking to the wives, and the wives, you know, passed the word so they had idea that we are punished. </sentence><sentence id="2753">Whether we were Jews or not, we had no idea, because everybody wear the striped uniforms, because we were never in contact with them, no close contact with the civilian population. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2759">Q: Were you ever in any other <span class="populated place">camps</span> for any length of time? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="2761"> A No, all of us were only short, short because Allies -- but the last, by the end, again I don't (r) General title of German armed forces from 1935 to 1945. </sentence><sentence id="2762">Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, s.v. " </sentence><sentence id="2763">Wehrmacht." </sentence><sentence id="2764"> remember the date, we were brought into <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> one night. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2770">Q: Let's hold on one second and let me see if there's anything else we need to cover about <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2771">I don't think so -- pretty thorough. </sentence><sentence id="2772">Anything that stands out in your mind? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2776">A: Not really, not too bad. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2778">Q: Other than the fact that you were there a long time, in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2780">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2782">Q: Three, four years? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2784">A: [Nods "yes." ] </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2786">Q: It must have been have seemed endless? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2788">A: Not <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>, all the <span class="populated place">camps</span> together. </sentence><sentence id="2789">Yes it was endless, it was endless. </sentence><sentence id="2790">And at the end of all these little <span class="populated place">camps</span>, we were finally brought in, at night, to <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2794">Q: Why? </sentence><sentence id="2795">A. I don't know why, it was -- I guess it was the end of the trip for them, they had no place to get us any more, in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> we were we also were short time, few days, and then were sent on a march, you know, just walking, walking, day in and day out, and walking, walking, walking, walking and walking to nowhere. </sentence><sentence id="2796">And people were falling like flies, left and right, left and right, you know, didn't know what's going on, getting a piece of bread a day, for warm weather, whatever it is, walking and walking and walking. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2797">Q: You were walking by people in <span class="populated place">villages</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2799">A: No, no. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2801">Q: Did anyone see you as you were walking? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2803">A: Yeah, people were seeing, we were passing little <span class="populated place">towns</span>, just a mass of people walking, walking and these old soldiers going, you know, creeping. </sentence><sentence id="2804">And after, I don't know eight days or nine days walking, look back, the group gets smaller and smaller and smaller, and I don't even know how those people were taken away the ones that fell, you know. </sentence><sentence id="2805">All of a sudden one time they tell us, "sit down for a rest period," and the German people eat whatever they get, and then we sit, and they tell us "Okay, up, up, up aufstehen(tm) up." </sentence><sentence id="2806">And like it was a password, we refuse to go. </sentence><sentence id="2807">What's the use, you know, we refuse to go. </sentence><sentence id="2808">Then the Germans get mad, they thought that we are rebelling. </sentence><sentence id="2809">And they, they said, "Up, * get up, rise (German). </sentence><sentence id="2810"> up, rouf, <span class="spatial object">roufl</span>">! </sentence><sentence id="2811">I mean, up the <span class="dlf">hill</span>, so big deal, we up the <span class="dlf">hill</span>, then held his hands up, you know, face the <span class="env feature">trees</span> and hands up, so we put our hands up. </sentence><sentence id="2812">And then, then one officer says like "genickschuss"(tm), means aim at the neck, you know. </sentence><sentence id="2813">We hear the rifles, didn't bother anybody, and we stay and we stay, and we wait and we wait, then we hear one of the officers says, "My God, four kilometers are the Americans!" </sentence><sentence id="2814">And we hold our hands, and, you know, it hurts. </sentence><sentence id="2815">We look, look, look, no more German soldiers. </sentence><sentence id="2816">We run down the <span class="dlf">hill</span>, and we hear the noise of <span class="spatial object">tanks</span>, <span class="spatial object">tanks</span>, <span class="spatial object">tanks</span> coming. </sentence><sentence id="2817">And we put our hands up, "Hey, hey, hey," -- didn't know, my God, liberated. </sentence><sentence id="2818">The other Jews start singing the "Hatikvah"*" and they tell, "Us let us go, let us go." -- </sentence><sentence id="2819">they spoke some German, the Americans --"Wir miissen gehen(tm)*." </sentence><sentence id="2820">So what do we know, we let them go, they pass us by. </sentence><sentence id="2821">And we all alone again, the German come back to take us. </sentence><sentence id="2822">To take us and march again and again and again and again, and -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2844">Q: What was going on then? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2846">A: The Germans just passed, they wouldn't take us, they wouldn't liberate us, they just passed by. </sentence><sentence id="2847">The Germans hid, they were hiding somewhere, the Americans passed by, the Germans came back. </sentence><sentence id="2848">But apparently the Germans were in the <span class="region">occupied territory</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2849">We don't know. </sentence><sentence id="2850">Then they made us turn around, like back towards <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>, but there was a <span class="populated place">camp</span> they name <span class="populated place">Allach</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2851">They put us in there, and I think we were there maybe a week or two. </sentence><sentence id="2852">And that's where I told you where the Germans took off the uniforms and became civilian, and they started to be awful nice to us, awful nice. " </sentence><sentence id="2853">Oh, we going to try to get you some barley, we are going to get some potatoes, we are going to get the soup a little thicker," you know. </sentence><sentence id="2854">And you are men at the <span class="building">appell</span>, you know, we were so all of a sudden we became so confused. " </sentence><sentence id="2855">Oh, you are men. </sentence><sentence id="2856">Please behave, you know, like don't make us punish you or hit you," you know, because some became very disorganized, "what the heck is going on." </sentence><sentence id="2857">A few weeks, and then all of a sudden, as I told you, the guards disappeared, you know, and again we don't know what's going on, and people go and break the <span class="dlf">gates</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2858">I wasn't even -- didn't even have the strength to pick up a piece of stick, I weighed about 90 pounds. </sentence><sentence id="2859">And all of a sudden some <span class="spatial object">jeeps</span> roll in with a, with a big <span class="spatial object">truck</span> with the red cross on there, you know, and some soldiers come out and shoot a gun and look and make pictures, you know. </sentence><sentence id="2860">And I remember very good that there was one inmate, a German Jew, he spoke English and he says, "you bring food." </sentence><sentence id="2861">Now I know, then I didn't understand, he says "yah, yah, yah," and went off. </sentence><sentence id="2862">At that time I didn't bother looking at them, they wanted to make pictures, I say, "the hell with your pictures." </sentence><sentence id="2863">and looked and looked, and go in the <span class="spatial object">truck</span> to look for some food and I find a package and I say, "My God I got chocolate." </sentence><sentence id="2864">I like chocolate so much, and I ate the whole package of Exlax, you know, and later I get my business and get my cramps, and I woke up in the >! </sentence><sentence id="2865">Up (German). * </sentence><sentence id="2866">Neck shot (German). * </sentence><sentence id="2867">Hope (Hebrew); Jewish national anthem. * " </sentence><sentence id="2868">We must go." ( </sentence><sentence id="2869">German). </sentence><sentence id="2870"> <span class="populated place">camp</span>, nobody was there telling me, "yes go, no don't go," and I went and there was this <span class="interior space">kitchen</span> outside. </sentence><sentence id="2871">I see the soldiers lined up and they're serving beautiful white bread, and make pancakes, you know, and I start to talk to somebody. </sentence><sentence id="2872">There was one soldier he was speaking Russian it was American soldiers, and he says, "What's wrong with you?" </sentence><sentence id="2873">I say, "bu, bu, boli(r), <span class="spatial object">schmerzen</span>?"." </sentence><sentence id="2874">And he took me in the <span class="spatial object">Jeep</span>, and it wasn't far away and drove me in to a <span class="populated place">town</span> called <span class="populated place">Mihldorf</span> and put me in <span class="building">hospital</span> -- new, and I got good -- you know, cleaned out and the surgeon gave me farina, milk and sugar every day. </sentence><sentence id="2875">And in two weeks I got [gestures to face] and I just walked out from the <span class="building">hospital</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2907">Q: I just want to go back a little. </sentence><sentence id="2908">So when the Americans came? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2911">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2913">Q: Finally. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="2915"> A Yes; andI-. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2917">Q: Do you remember how they treated you? </sentence><sentence id="2918">Do you remember anything more about the scene? </sentence><sentence id="2919">Where you...? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2923">A: Well, I just told you. </sentence><sentence id="2924">Didn't hate us at all. </sentence><sentence id="2925">They just came in as visitors, appeared to me like visitors, you know, they just came in looked around, spoke to some civilian, you know, and that's all. </sentence><sentence id="2926">And I -- there, there was no treatment, didn't pay any attention to us, you know, </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2931">Q: What did you -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2933">A: Just made pictures, I don't know, I said, ""What the hell is going on, who are these people?" </sentence><sentence id="2934">So they says we are free, or liberated -- we are liberated. </sentence><sentence id="2935">People started to sing the "Hatikvah," and I wanted to eat, didn't get anything for three days since the Germans left. </sentence><sentence id="2936">The night before we had the artilerske"(r) some people got killed in the <span class="building">barracks</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2941">Q: The night before? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2943">A: The night before, the father and son got hit with shrapnels. </sentence><sentence id="2944">So when we they came in, they were looking around making pictures. </sentence><sentence id="2945">There was nothing. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2949">Q: Could you believe that you were free? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="2951"> * "Boo-hoo" (Polish). </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2952"> degdeg Hurts (Polish). </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2953"> >7 Pain (German). </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2954"> * Artillery (Yiddish). </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2955">A: I could believe because the, the how you call, it the guards were gone. </sentence><sentence id="2956">The guards were gone. </sentence><sentence id="2957">And some people broke the <span class="dlf">gates</span>, the <span class="dlf">doors</span> were open, the <span class="dlf">gates</span> were open. </sentence><sentence id="2958">Some people got strong, they went in and out, and all of a sudden I see the inmates that were in my <span class="building">barracks</span> sleeping next to me, came with -- bring <span class="spatial object">motorcycles</span> in they were nice and strong <span class="spatial object">motorcycles</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2959">Apparently they robbed some people, you know, but I was too sick. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2965">Q: What -- do you know what happened to the German guards, did they just disappear? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2967">A: They disappeared, yes, the Germans disappeared. </sentence><sentence id="2968">Some of the civilian remained to take care of us, just to play a role of repairing, and hoping that one of us would say a good word to the authorities, that they wouldn't imprison them or some prisoners, not to kill them, because prisoners take advantage later on Kapos and the blockaltesters. </sentence><sentence id="2969">I know there was one blockaltester in <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span> that the Ukrainian put them, and they cut him with a saw, because he was a bastard, he was bad. </sentence><sentence id="2970">So prisoners, I mean inmates took revenge. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2975">Q: Did you see this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2977">A: I didn't see this. </sentence><sentence id="2978">It was just talking, you know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2981">Q: Do you remember approximately the date of all this; the date when you were liberated? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2983">A: The date of liberation, it was spring, April sometimes, I know springtime, it started to get warm. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2985">Q: What -- where did you go from the <span class="building">hospital</span>? </sentence><sentence id="2986">You were in there a few months... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2989">A: From the <span class="building">hospital</span>, I walked out to a little <span class="populated place">town</span> called <span class="populated place">Ampfing</span>, and I met two boys, two Jewish boys, and I started talking to them, I just came out and "What are you doing? </sentence></p><p><sentence id="2990">What's, what -- where are you from?" " </sentence><sentence id="2991">They say, well, we are from here." </sentence><sentence id="2992">And I said, "Where are you staying?" " </sentence><sentence id="2993">We are going to two sisters, farmers, you know, they took us in. </sentence><sentence id="2994">If you want you can come stay with us." </sentence><sentence id="2995">So I went with them, and there were two old sisters. </sentence><sentence id="2996">They were so afraid that they thought that every survivor that comes in, they have to give up their life, you know. </sentence><sentence id="2997">So they took care of us, all three of us. </sentence><sentence id="2998">We stood there for several months. </sentence><sentence id="2999">And then in that particular <span class="populated place">town</span>, there was a <span class="populated place">camp</span> in the <span class="env feature">forest</span>, a <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="3000">And they were making parts for <span class="spatial object">airplanes</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3001">So we used to go there and get little motors, electric motors. </sentence><sentence id="3002">We took the <span class="spatial object">motors</span> and went to a farmer in exchange for a cow or a calf, slaughtered and sold the meat to <span class="populated place">camps</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3003"><span class="populated place">Camps</span> were established already, UNRRA~" <span class="populated place">camps</span>, but they didn't get enough to eat, so we started to be in business. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="3004"> >> United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3005">Q: You're a hustler! </sentence><sentence id="3006">A Yes, started a <span class="building">business</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3007">Got a horse and <span class="spatial object">wagon</span>, and started the business. </sentence><sentence id="3008">Then when we got sick of the little <span class="populated place">town</span>, we says we going to go to <span class="populated place">Munich</span>, so we go with the horse and <span class="spatial object">wagon</span> to <span class="populated place">Munich</span>, and we go, and had already a little idea. </sentence><sentence id="3009">And one of my partners had a landsman was an administrator in <span class="building">HIAS</span>", you know <span class="building">HIAS</span>? </sentence><sentence id="3010">So I do it here and there, what can we do, and he says "Well, you go and find out an <span class="interior space">apartment</span> where a Nazi used to live and you can have that <span class="interior space">apartment</span>." </sentence><sentence id="3011">So we found out that Nazi get a clearing order to clear in 24 hours, he had to not even take any <span class="spatial object">bedding</span>, nothing, leave everything as it is. </sentence><sentence id="3012">And we got a beautiful <span class="interior space">apartment</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3013">So we took the horse and <span class="spatial object">wagon</span> back there, came up, moved into <span class="interior space">apartment</span>, and start doing business. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3023">Q: Who arranged for this Nazi to leave, or you just marched in? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3025">A: German -- we didn't march in, no. </sentence><sentence id="3026">We asked around, "where do the Nazis live?" </sentence><sentence id="3027">and Germans used to say, "Nazi used to live here, Nazi used to live here." " </sentence><sentence id="3028">You know his name?" " </sentence><sentence id="3029">Yes." </sentence><sentence id="3030">So we talked the guy in the <span class="building">HIAS</span> and he made an application and HIAS -- the guy get an order, an eviction and had to give up the <span class="interior space">apartment</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3031">And we moved in, and then whoever came from <span class="country">Poland</span> moved in with us to stay, and it was like a transit. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3039">Q: What did you -- at what point did you try to find out about your family, your brothers? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3041">A: I was looking all the time, but I was under the impression that they perished. </sentence><sentence id="3042">However, this J oe"!" </sentence><sentence id="3043">Joe got liberated in <span class="country">Czechoslovakia</span>, he remain in <span class="country">Czechoslovakia</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3044">My older brother somehow wound up now to be in <span class="country">Belgium</span>, you know, from German they took him to <span class="country">Belgium</span>, and me I was in <span class="populated place">Munich</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3045">I got organized, I got even a <span class="spatial object">car</span>, the first boy to get a <span class="spatial object">car</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3046">Nobody could even get a <span class="spatial object">car</span>, I got a <span class="spatial object">car</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3047">I registered the <span class="building">Palestinian embassy</span>, and I used to drive around the doctor to the children in <span class="country">Palestine</span>, I had the <span class="spatial object">car</span>, and the Rabbi used to drive around and do the weddings. </sentence><sentence id="3048">And then I started to get -- I got acquainted with somebody who had a connection with a <span class="building">Belgia consulate</span>, not knowing that had I had a brother in <span class="country">Belgium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3049">The <span class="building">Belgium consulate</span> give a list of people that perished. </sentence><sentence id="3050">So the men told me for 200 dollars, if anybody wants to emigrate to <span class="country">Belgium</span>, we are going to make him a paper and as that man who perished, going <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3051">So I got involved with that, you know, I made hundred dollars, he made hundred dollars. " </sentence><sentence id="3052">You want to go to <span class="country">Belgium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3053">Today your name is so and so, and you are going <span class="building">home</span> legally with the picture." </sentence><sentence id="3054">He went to <span class="country">Belgium</span> and in <span class="country">Belgium</span> the HIAS took over, and made them stay until whatever, didn't know that I have a brother in <span class="country">Belgium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3055">Then my brother comes from <span class="country">Belgium</span> to <span class="populated place">Munich</span> looking for me, he was on the <span class="dlf">street</span> where I was, couldn't find me, goes back to <span class="country">Belgium</span>, and somehow he got in contact with him -- <span class="country">Czechoslovakian</span> and Belgian and were writing to each other, and they crying over my (c) Hebrew Sheltering and Immigrant Aid Society (American). </sentence><sentence id="3056"><span class="building">SS</span>! </sentence><sentence id="3057">Icek (Josef) Baum death, you know. </sentence><sentence id="3058">While I doing business in <span class="populated place">Munich</span>, I see one man who got approximately the same number. </sentence><sentence id="3059">I say by the number we know the <span class="spatial object">transport</span>, you know, "Oh you from here, you must have been in <span class="populated place">Buna</span>." </sentence><sentence id="3060">I say "yes." " </sentence><sentence id="3061">Do you know Icek Baum?" </sentence><sentence id="3062">He say, "Sure I know him. </sentence><sentence id="3063">He is in <span class="populated place">Friedland</span>" to <span class="country">Czechoslovakia</span>, I just came from there and here is the address." </sentence><sentence id="3064">He gives me address, I write a letter, came back "unknown." </sentence><sentence id="3065">The Czechs wouldn't let him out, they wanted him to remain there, they wanted him to become a citizen because he was working in electrical place. </sentence><sentence id="3066">To make the story short, my brother Joe didn't want to be <span class="country">Czechoslovakian</span>, he wants to join his brother in <span class="country">Belgium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3067">To go to <span class="country">Belgium</span> he has to go through <span class="country">Czechoslovakia</span> and has to come to <span class="country">Germany</span>, to the <span class="dlf">border</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3068">In <span class="country">Germany</span> they meet two girls. </sentence><sentence id="3069">They say, "Why don't you accompany us to," -- wherever they were--"to, in <span class="populated place">UNRRA camp</span>." </sentence><sentence id="3070">My brother says, "Okay I go." </sentence><sentence id="3071">He goes then to <span class="populated place">Munich</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3072">In <span class="populated place">Munich</span> he meets the guy who told me about this. " </sentence><sentence id="3073">You know, you have a brother here in <span class="populated place">Munich</span>." </sentence><sentence id="3074">He says, "no way." </sentence><sentence id="3075">So the whole night I couldn't stand it, and the morning he brings me to him, you know, after years. </sentence><sentence id="3076">Then I start crying to him that the other one is dead. </sentence><sentence id="3077">He says, "No he is not dead, he is in <span class="country">Belgium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3078">Here's a picture." </sentence><sentence id="3079">So right away I go with this -- with him and make papers. </sentence><sentence id="3080">Now we go to <span class="country">Belgium</span>, who wants to be in <span class="populated place">Munich</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3081">So we make papers and I got <span class="spatial object">suitcases</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3082">And the brother from <span class="country">Belgium</span> comes to <span class="populated place">Munich</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3083">And then we all went to <span class="country">Belgium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3084">We stayed in <span class="country">Belgium</span> for a while, and the war broke out in <span class="country">Israel</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3085">We went to fight in 1948, me and the oldest. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3132">Q: How did you get over there; was that easy? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3134">A: To? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3136">Q: To <span class="country">Palestine</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3138">A: To <span class="country">Palestine</span>, my brother got smuggled in somehow. </sentence><sentence id="3139">And I went to <span class="populated place">Marseilles</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3140">From <span class="populated place">Marseilles</span>, the <span class="country">United States</span> donated a <span class="spatial object">ship</span>, a <span class="spatial object">frigate</span>, a <span class="spatial object">war ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3141">And they kept me from <span class="country">Israel</span> again mobilized us in <span class="populated place">Marseilles</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3142">We walk on the <span class="spatial object">ship</span> prepared. </sentence><sentence id="3143">We went out on <span class="env feature">sea</span> under a Panama flag from <span class="populated place">Marseilles</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3144">And on the <span class="env feature">waters</span>, a little <span class="spatial object">Jewish fish boat</span> came and passed the Jewish flag to us and we went into <span class="populated place">Haifa</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3145">In <span class="populated place">Haifa</span> put in the <span class="spatial object">cannons</span> right away and out to war. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3154">Q: So you went to <span class="country">Israel</span> to fight for independence? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3156">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3158">Q: Had you tried to get there legally before? </sentence><sentence id="3159">Had you try to immigrate there earlier? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="3162"> (c) <span class="populated place">Frydlant</span>, <span class="country">Czech Republic</span> </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3163">A: No, no, no, I just went as a volunteer to fight. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3165">Q: And the same with your brother? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3167">A: Yes, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3169">Q: And did you meet with up I with him there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3171">A: Yes, I meet up with him there. </sentence><sentence id="3172">And then when the war ended, they had to liberate us because we were not aliyah(tm), you know, at our request, because nobody wanted to be there; it was bad, there was no food, and I got married there and I couldn't find any occupation in the situation. </sentence><sentence id="3173">Since they had to let me out, I went back to <span class="country">Belgium</span>, and I applied to come to the <span class="country">United States</span> or <span class="country">Canada</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3174">And in <span class="country">Belgium</span> every day the police was chasing me, couldn't stay there, for a whole year. </sentence><sentence id="3175">And I wrote a letter to Queen Victoria telling her my situation, and nobody came to <span class="country">Belgium</span> to let me stay in <span class="country">Belgium</span>, give me permission to work for as long as I want. </sentence><sentence id="3176">At the same time, I got the permission -- a permit that I was permitted to move to <span class="country">Canada</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3177">So 1951, I emigrated to <span class="country">Canada</span>, and lived in <span class="country">Canada</span> for 15 years and still wanted to come to this beautiful <span class="country">country</span> and finally succeed. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3185">Q: You wrote a letter to Queen Victoria? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3187">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3189">Q: And somehow-- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3191">A: Explaining my situation. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3193">Q: -- it got through? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3195">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="3196">I explained I have no place to go. </sentence><sentence id="3197">I cannot back to <span class="country">Poland</span> because of the persecution the survivors of such a Holocaust. </sentence><sentence id="3198">And here I came to this wonderful <span class="country">country</span> and I'm waiting to receive immigration papers. </sentence><sentence id="3199">And then this Mr. -- what's his name in the jus..., the palais of justice(tm) --send the police after me every day, every day where I'm going to go, because I was not legal in <span class="country">Belgium</span>, because I was an alien. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3205">Q: How long were you in <span class="country">Israel</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3207">A: About 14 months. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3209">Q: Was it exciting fighting for the...? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="3211"> % Immigrant to <span class="country">Israel</span> (Hebrew). </sentence></p><p><sentence id="3212"> " <span class="building">palais de justice</span>; <span class="building">law-courts</span> (French). </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3213">A: Sure it was it was exciting, sure. </sentence><sentence id="3214">Ben-Gurion(r) came on our <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3215">I was a chef on the <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3216">I had always a spoon in the <span class="spatial object">pot</span>! </sentence><sentence id="3217">There was no food, it was very bad in <span class="country">Israel</span> then, everything rations. </sentence><sentence id="3218">But for the soldiers, we got -- and I cooked for them meals. </sentence><sentence id="3219">They loved it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3228">Q: When you got into <span class="populated place">Haifa</span> you were fighting on <span class="env feature">land</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3230">A: Not in on <span class="region">land</span>, the <span class="building">Israeli navy</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3231">My brother was on <span class="env feature">land</span>; I was in the <span class="building">navy</span>, the Israeli navy. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3234">Q: And you met were up with him in <span class="country">Israel</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3236">A: Yes; I met him -- | just visit him, just visiting. </sentence><sentence id="3237">When I came there, he had furlough 24 hours, so he spend time with me, and then he had to go back on his <span class="populated place">camp</span> and I was on the <span class="spatial object">ship</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3238">He wanted to come on the <span class="spatial object">ship</span> too, but they never allowed two brothers in the same outfit because, God forbid, if something happens, at least one us should survive. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3242">Q: Did your brother stay in <span class="country">Israel</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="3244"> A No, he came back to <span class="country">Belgium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3245">He is older than Joe, he is in <span class="country">Canada</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3248">Q: Now, one thing I didn't ask you about is, was religion ever important to you throughout all of this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3250">A: No. </sentence><sentence id="3251">Believed in God, prayed to God, but you know, I had a hard time -- you I used to go to -- mama used to send me to cheder(r)", you know <span class="building">cheder</span>? </sentence><sentence id="3252"><span class="building">Jewish school</span>, <span class="building">religious Jewish school</span> where they had all the Rabbis? </sentence><sentence id="3253">But they used to beat up on the children. </sentence><sentence id="3254">If you didn't know something, "pow," or let defense down, and he hit. </sentence><sentence id="3255">So I didn't want to go, I just refused to go to that. </sentence><sentence id="3256">So Mama order -- hired a tutor to come three times a week to the <span class="building">house</span> and teach me Jewish, you know, how to pray and all that. </sentence><sentence id="3257">But, he wanted one zloty, like one dollar every week, and we didn't have it, so he didn't come. </sentence><sentence id="3258">So I never really learned. </sentence><sentence id="3259">I know a little bit. </sentence><sentence id="3260">Now I go to <span class="building">synagogue</span> Friday, Saturday, just. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3272">Q: How did you feel about being a Jew throughout all of this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3274">A: How I felt, I mean I wish -- I used to wish I wasn't. </sentence><sentence id="3275">You know, like, ""Why did God want me Jew? </sentence><sentence id="3276">Why did he want to punish me? </sentence><sentence id="3277">Why? </sentence><sentence id="3278">Look at all this. </sentence><sentence id="3279">Why I was unprivileged?" </sentence></p><p><sentence id="3280"> (r) David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973), Zionist leader and Israeli statesman, served as first prime minister of <span class="country">Israel</span>. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="3281"> Encyclopaedia Judaica, s.v. " </sentence><sentence id="3282">Ben-Gurion, David." </sentence></p><p><sentence id="3283"> degdeg <span class="building">Orthodox primary school</span> (Yiddish). </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3284">Q: You didn't necessarily look down on Jews, you just didn't like the position? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3285">A: Yes, I wish I wasn't. </sentence><sentence id="3286">I was trying to deny it, but --I could deny it but I couldn't hide it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3289">Q: When you look back at this long period, that you were really suffering, what do you think of that now? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3291">A: Well, guilty, I mean why, why couldn't my mother have lived, why couldn't my beautiful three sisters have lived, my older brother, why? </sentence><sentence id="3292">And then again, I put it in the hands of God, he wanted me. </sentence><sentence id="3293">He wanted me to tell the story, although I'm still paying a high price for it. </sentence><sentence id="3294">It's haunting me constantly. </sentence><sentence id="3295">Especially that woman that took my number down. </sentence><sentence id="3296">I see her so often, "take his number." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3303">Q: It seems throughout all of this there was some God? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3305">A: And some sceneries that I have seen, like, for instance, in <span class="populated place">Plonsk</span>, when they told the people to come out, out, out, so the woman tried to hide, and was hiding too, her child. </sentence><sentence id="3306">So this young, young soldier about 17 years old grabbed the child out of her hands, and she was screaming and he shot her right in the mouth and threw the child down. </sentence><sentence id="3307">You know, seeing all these sceneries just come back, come back to me, haunting me. </sentence><sentence id="3308">The evacuation, the <span class="spatial object">train</span> rides, especially the <span class="spatial object">train</span> ride to <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3309">It wasn't an actual <span class="spatial object">train</span>, it was those little narrow on the narrow <span class="dlf">tracks</span>, how you call this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3315">Q: You were in <span class="spatial object">cattle cars</span>, weren't you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3317">A: Not <span class="spatial object">cattle cars</span>, there were narrow <span class="dlf">tracks</span> and they were up and hanging in <span class="interior space">aisle</span> like <span class="spatial object">containers</span>, with a little <span class="spatial object">locomotive</span>," and they were running during the night, and the whistle sounds in my ears so sad, you know, like a crying whistle. </sentence><sentence id="3318">And you going to nowhere, to nowhere. </sentence><sentence id="3319">And coming to the <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> and the Germans with the dogs, you know, not where knowing the next what's going to be. </sentence><sentence id="3320">So I'm free, I'm not free. </sentence><sentence id="3321">Then I told you I liberated myself. </sentence><sentence id="3322">In 1988 the Polish authorities tried to find whoever was in <span class="building">Dr.Korcezak home</span> and made anniversary celebration of 75 years of existence of the <span class="building">house</span>, the <span class="building">building</span> is still there, you know, that they built. </sentence><sentence id="3323">So they got hold of me and my friend David, and there was another one, he moved to <span class="region">California</span>, he would be a testimony. </sentence><sentence id="3324">So we went to <span class="country">Poland</span>; we went to <span class="country">Poland</span>, and we come to <span class="country">Poland</span> and people, introduce one another, comes a gentleman and he says my name is Aleksander Lewin, but in <span class="building">orphanage</span> they used to call me Szura, and if there would be a <span class="dlf">hole</span> I would fall right in. </sentence><sentence id="3325">He was my Mr. Szura. </sentence><sentence id="3326">He was the one that was like my father next to Dr. Korezak, you know, used to help me with my homework, come to my <span class="building">school</span>, and we I mean we hugged and kissed. </sentence><sentence id="3327">He didn't recognize but I show him my picture. </sentence><sentence id="3328">It was -- then we go into to the <span class="building">home</span> and I look, and the feeling over came, came over me like the best to describe it like $7 <span class="dlf">Schmalspurbahn</span> (<span class="dlf">narrow-gauge railway</span>). </sentence><sentence id="3329"> you have your famous toy, your famous doll, they take it away from you, they give it back but it's broken, you know. </sentence><sentence id="3330">Like everybody -- that <span class="spatial object">commode</span>, everybody had, with the little <span class="interior space">drawers</span> where your toys were it's gone. </sentence><sentence id="3331">Everything is different. </sentence><sentence id="3332">But one thing, they assign a <span class="spatial object">seat</span> to me, you know, to sit down, and they assign me the same <span class="spatial object">seat</span> at the same <span class="spatial object">table</span> where I was when I was a child, you know, not knowingly. </sentence><sentence id="3333">Unbelievable. </sentence><sentence id="3334">And it was very emotional, everybody used to tell the story. </sentence><sentence id="3335">But most of the people were prior to the war, prior to me, that immigrated to <span class="country">Israel</span> and to <span class="country">Australia</span> and to <span class="country">Brazil</span>, they also came. </sentence><sentence id="3336">So I was the youngest, and I remembered the most of Dr. Korczak, you know, so my stories were.... And they took us on tours to different <span class="populated place">camps</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3337">And then me and David hired a private chauffeur with a <span class="spatial object">car</span> and says I want to go a <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>; I want to go to <span class="populated place">Birkenau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="3338">We had to have the courage, you know. </sentence><sentence id="3339">So drive to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>, and naturally I walk in, now my memory comes. </sentence><sentence id="3340">When I came to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> I was forced in. </sentence><sentence id="3341">And this thing, you know, the <span class="dlf">railroad crossing</span> that long thing was closed shut, <span class="dlf">electric wire</span>, no way out. </sentence><sentence id="3342">Here I walk in because I want to walk in. </sentence><sentence id="3343">And I know on the other side is a guy waiting with a <span class="spatial object">Mercedes</span> for me, and I walk out. </sentence><sentence id="3344">I'm liberated. </sentence><sentence id="3345">That's why I say I didn't feel liberated when the Allies came. </sentence><sentence id="3346">I walked in my free will and I walked out. </sentence><sentence id="3347">And since then I feel liberated. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3381">Q: You never felt got liberated since -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3383">A: No, because -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3385">Q: Sort of just trapped with the memories? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3387">A: I was just then, as I say, I came in and took over like a landlord buys a <span class="building">building</span> and the tenants were there. </sentence><sentence id="3388">They came and they were there; the <span class="region">territory</span> was occupied and we were there. </sentence><sentence id="3389">But there was no provision for us, you know, like I would understand they came in with doctors or, or <span class="building">Red Cross</span>, you know, medication or some food, nothing. </sentence><sentence id="3390">Pictures. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3395">Q: Anything else you want to add? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3397">A: Well, that's about it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3399">Q: Thank you. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3401">A: My pleasure. </sentence><sentence id="3402"> </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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