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layout: transcript |
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interviewee: zina schulz baum |
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rg_number: rg-50.030.0018 |
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pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0018_trs_en.pdf |
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ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504531 |
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gender: f |
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birth_date: 1928-05-01 |
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birth_year: 1928.0 |
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place_of_birth: mako mazoweicki |
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country: poland |
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experience_group: survivor,partisan |
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ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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ghetto: none |
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camp(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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camp: none |
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non_ss_camp: none |
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region: none |
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needs_research: none |
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data_entry: gg |
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accession: none |
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revisit: none |
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tags: transcripts |
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--- |
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<body><dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1">ZINA SCHULZ BAUM July 5, 1994 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3">Q: Will you just begin please by telling me your name? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="5">A: My name is Gardbein, Zina Gardbein. </sentence><sentence id="6">I was born in <span class="country">Poland</span> -- <span class="populated place">Makew</span>" in 1928, May Ist. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="9">Q: If you'll tell me a little bit about your life before the war? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="11">A: Before the war? </sentence><sentence id="12">We had a very nice life. </sentence><sentence id="13">I was very young. </sentence><sentence id="14">My mother was very, very good person, my father too. </sentence><sentence id="15">He made a nice living. </sentence><sentence id="16">We weren't rich, but we weren't poor either. </sentence><sentence id="17">In <span class="country">Poland</span>, if you had enough to eat, you were rich. </sentence><sentence id="18">So, we had enough food. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="27">Q: What kind of work did he do? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="29">A: My father had people working, making shoes. </sentence><sentence id="30">People worked for us. </sentence><sentence id="31">We had about five or six people working for us. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="35">Q: Now, were you neighbors Jewish? </sentence><sentence id="36">Did you go to a <span class="building">Jewish school</span>, a <span class="building">public school</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="39">A: I went to a <span class="building">public school</span>, but a <span class="building">public school</span> in <span class="country">Poland</span> were Jews separate and Poles separate. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="41">Q: Even before the war? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="43">A: Before the war. </sentence><sentence id="44">And they used to throw stones at us -- and we were small kids -- the Polish children. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="47">Q: Was this all before the war? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="49">A: All before the war, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="51">Q: So you were aware of a lot of antisemitism? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="53">A: That's right. </sentence><sentence id="54">I knew it because they didn't like each other. </sentence><sentence id="55">They didn't like us, so we didn't like them. </sentence><sentence id="56">I think we could like everybody that likes us. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="61">Q: Did you have friends or neighbors that were Gentile when you were young? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="63"> " Makow Mazowiecki </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="64">A: Yes, yes we had. </sentence><sentence id="65">My father had people working for us and they were Gentiles, and we got along fantastically, but when the war started, they started robbing us. </sentence><sentence id="66">There were no friendships. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="70">Q: So your neighbor or good friends changed on you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="72">A: They changed completely. </sentence><sentence id="73">They weren't the same. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="76">Q: Do you remember how you all felt about this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="78">A: How I felt? </sentence><sentence id="79">Terrible. </sentence><sentence id="80">My father, they took him to the <span class="building">Polish Army</span>. </sentence><sentence id="81">My mother was left with five children and we didn't have to eat much, and I remember a German man came to our <span class="building">house</span> and he said in German "vielleicht meine Frau und Kinder, sie leiden auch,"" like their children suffered too. </sentence><sentence id="82">He told my mother you're so young and you're beautiful. </sentence><sentence id="83">Leave here, take your children and go, but my mother had a mother that she had red eyes and she was old and she wouldn't leave her mother. </sentence><sentence id="84">She had a sister one sister she was the most beautiful girl in the whole <span class="populated place">city</span> but blonde hair. </sentence><sentence id="85">She was only 18 years old and one sister had two children and my mother wouldn't leave her sister. </sentence><sentence id="86">So, they didn't leave so she sent away her sister, the 18 year old with white blonde hair but me and my brother -- my brother is in <span class="country">Israel</span> now, he's younger, four years, than me and a sister two years younger -- she sent us away to the <span class="region">Russian side</span>, so the <span class="dlf">border</span> we couldn't go through so at night we went through because it was already closed, the <span class="dlf">border</span>. </sentence><sentence id="87">We had a very hard time getting through there. </sentence><sentence id="88">We came to <span class="populated place">Lomza</span>. </sentence><sentence id="89">It was in <span class="country">Poland</span>, a place where my mother left. </sentence><sentence id="90">She was wearing a green scarf and she was crying. </sentence><sentence id="91">I said, "Mommy don't cry. </sentence><sentence id="92">We're going to see each other. </sentence><sentence id="93">It's not going to take long." </sentence><sentence id="94">Who knew for the rest of my life I'd never see her again? </sentence><sentence id="95">We left and my aunt brought us there. </sentence><sentence id="96">She brought us to <span class="populated place">Lomza</span>. </sentence><sentence id="97">My father wasn't there. </sentence><sentence id="98">My father was in the army and he came back <span class="building">home</span> so I was praying that my mother's going to come. </sentence><sentence id="99">Then my father came alone and my aunt gave us away in an <span class="building">orphanage</span> and she left to bring my mother, to bring the whole family here and she gave us to an <span class="building">orphanage</span>, and I was crying every single day. </sentence><sentence id="100">Every single day, "Where's my mommy? </sentence><sentence id="101">I don't have my mommy. </sentence><sentence id="102">I want my mommy." </sentence><sentence id="103">I was young. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="130">Q: How old were you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="132">A: I was at that time about ten years old and my brother was little. </sentence><sentence id="133">He was about four years younger than me and my sister was two years younger than me and we're all in an <span class="building">orphanage</span> in <span class="populated place">Lomza</span> and we were crying. </sentence><sentence id="134">I was crying the most because when I was young I used to go up to mother like this holding her by her dress. </sentence><sentence id="135">I was very attached to my mother. </sentence><sentence id="136">So, what happened, my "Maybe my wife and children are suffering, too" (German) father came by himself, for my aunt was there and she never came back. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="143">Q: Did you find out what happened? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="145">A: She wanted to pass the <span class="dlf">border</span> but they wouldn't let her, a few times. </sentence><sentence id="146">My father was afraid to leave us and I was crying so much when I saw just my father. </sentence><sentence id="147">I said, "No it can't be that my father came alone." </sentence><sentence id="148">My father a few times he went again to bring my mother but he couldn't pass the <span class="dlf">border</span>. </sentence><sentence id="149">That, we were separated. </sentence><sentence id="150">We were separated and the war started again. </sentence><sentence id="151">We went from <span class="populated place">Lomza</span> to <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> _ with my father. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="159">Q: You never found out any more? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="161">A: Yes, I found out. </sentence><sentence id="162">It was one man that my father thought -- Zalewski" was his name -- that he is the biggest antisemite, the other people, he thought they were nice. </sentence><sentence id="163">And he helped my mother. </sentence><sentence id="164">He helped the brother put her in a <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> and they brought her food and they were helping her. </sentence><sentence id="165">It's the only person that we thought was the biggest antisemite -- he was helping my mother. </sentence><sentence id="166">We went to <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> to a small <span class="populated place">town</span> and I went to the <span class="building">Russian school</span> there. </sentence><sentence id="167">I was very good in <span class="building">school</span>, and my father was so proud of me. " </sentence><sentence id="168">The war is going to finish and we're going to see your mother and everybody is going to come together." </sentence><sentence id="169">My father wrote to Stalin a letter that he should let my mother come and if the war wouldn't have started my mother would have come with the children. </sentence><sentence id="170">All the family would come. </sentence><sentence id="171">But the war started and the Germans came, and we again are in trouble, run away from the Germans. </sentence><sentence id="172">So, when the Germans came it started being a lot of trouble. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="185">Q: What year is this do you remember? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="187">A: What year he Germans came? </sentence><sentence id="188">I think it's "41 or "42. </sentence><sentence id="189">I can't remember the dates, but I know when it started the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, it was in September because the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> started and my father was -- they made him in the committee, then we started listening and hearing. </sentence><sentence id="190">I wanted to run off from the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="191">So we had people that were police in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> -- Jewish people, young guys. </sentence><sentence id="192">So I started running out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> to steal bread -- because I was a tomboy -- to bring some bread, not steal, bring some bread to the <span class="building">house</span>. </sentence><sentence id="193">We should have something to eat. </sentence><sentence id="194">I just didn't eat by myself and I brought bread when I ran out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="195">I gave to lots of people. </sentence><sentence id="196">I say, "If I'm going to be hungry and if I'm going to die, if they're going to die, if I'm going to live, I want them to live too. </sentence><sentence id="197">Why should I live and they should die?" </sentence><sentence id="198">So, I gave to everybody a piece to that, and a piece to that, and then one time I wanted to run out and a policeman -- like a Jewish policeman, he was for us good and he wasn't for the Germans -- he said, "You know somebody is going to catch you and they're going to kill you." </sentence><sentence id="199">One time it happened that before the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> start, a German man with a blind eye came and he said, "Does Jews live here?" </sentence><sentence id="200">and I said "no." </sentence><sentence id="201">And he went in and Jews were living there and he came out and he was beating me so much. </sentence><sentence id="202">He was beating me like he wanted to kill me. </sentence><sentence id="203">Then he was gone, so I run away > Stanislaw Zalewski and I came to a neighbor of ours under the <span class="spatial object">bed</span> I was laying and when he came he said, "Where is the maid? </sentence><sentence id="204">Ich will sie totschlagen.*" </sentence><sentence id="205">He would have killed me. </sentence><sentence id="206">Because for them to say a lie is the worst thing that you could do. </sentence><sentence id="207">That's before the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> started. </sentence><sentence id="208">I was so beaten I couldn't see. </sentence><sentence id="209">I couldn't walk for weeks. </sentence><sentence id="210">That much he beat me. </sentence><sentence id="211">And then I started with the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="238">Q: Let me just stop you for a second. </sentence><sentence id="239">I want to hear a little bit about how the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> came into being, I mean if you remember what life was like in <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> and how long you were there before you were confined. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="242">A: In <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span>, the people were very nice. </sentence><sentence id="243">They were very good. </sentence><sentence id="244">Like when we came the Russians were still there. </sentence><sentence id="245">So, the neighbors, they brought butter milk and that brought bread. </sentence><sentence id="246">That became, we were like strangers there, and everybody brought something else. </sentence><sentence id="247">Me, my father and my sister when we came, and my brother and my sister and my father. </sentence><sentence id="248">They were so friendly. </sentence><sentence id="249">It really was very, very nice. </sentence><sentence id="250">I had a friend. </sentence><sentence id="251">She's still in <span class="populated place">New York</span> next <span class="dlf">door</span>, like the next <span class="building">house</span>, and we became very close friends. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="262">Q: Were most of the people you associated with in <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> Jewish or everybody? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="264">A: Mostly Jewish, in <span class="populated place">Belorus</span> also, but the <span class="populated place">Belorus</span> people weren't as bad as -- they became bad when the Germans came, but they weren't as bad. </sentence><sentence id="265">Like my mother's sister had beautiful things. </sentence><sentence id="266">She was young. </sentence><sentence id="267">I gave it away it somebody and when I came back after the war she wouldn't give me nothing back. </sentence><sentence id="268">They were takers. </sentence><sentence id="269">They didn't like Jews. </sentence><sentence id="270">Nobody did. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="278">Q: Did you go to <span class="building">school</span> in <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="280">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="281">I went to the <span class="building">Russian school</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="284">Q: How long were you in <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> before the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> was formed? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="286">A: I can't remember. </sentence><sentence id="287">The <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> was formed in 1942 probably. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="290">Q: I can give you that date but I'm trying to figure out how long you were there. </sentence><sentence id="291">Was it weeks, was it months? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="294">A: It was a few months, not too long, a few months, and then they started the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="296">Q: The <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> I believe was formed in 1942? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="298"> <<7 want to kill her" (German) </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="299">A: I think it was 1942. </sentence><sentence id="300">I can't remember that, like my memory got completely -- especially that time, I have no memory of that. </sentence><sentence id="301">I can't remember the dates at all. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="305">Q: So, you were in <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> several months before the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="307">A: In the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> before the Germans came, several months, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="309">Q: Weren't the Germans there for a while before the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="311">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="312">The Germans came. </sentence><sentence id="313">I was in <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> maybe more than a year, maybe a year and half or two before -- I think maybe a year and half. </sentence><sentence id="314">I can't remember how long when the Germans came. </sentence><sentence id="315">I don't even remember which year they came. </sentence><sentence id="316">I can't remember, but my memory slipped completely about that. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="323">Q: So, when the Germans came to <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span>, did they form the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> immediately? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="325">A: Not long after, a few months. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="327">Q: What was the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> like? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="329"> A A few families were in one <span class="building">house</span>, they lived in one <span class="building">house</span>, like three or four families. </sentence><sentence id="330">We had like -- we made, it wasn't <span class="spatial object">beds</span>, it was like they made they put like wood on the top and on the bottom something like that to sleep and there were a few families living together in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, and then we started hearing that they are going to kill the Jews. </sentence><sentence id="331">When they're going to kill the Jews then somebody came and they said to my father that, "T think it's going to happen in the next few days." </sentence><sentence id="332">So, when they started talking about burning everything, like all the things we have, we should burn. </sentence><sentence id="333">Nobody should have it. </sentence><sentence id="334">Not the <span class="building">Belorus</span>, not the Germans, should get nothing that we have. </sentence><sentence id="335">We started putting gasoline when we knew that the next day we're going to get killed. </sentence><sentence id="336">So we saw everybody what they were standing. </sentence><sentence id="337">I went out, I remember, very early in the morning and I saw the Germans pulling up with guns, with all kinds of things, they were holding like this, you know, everything, and they were pointing at the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="338">My father was running out of the <span class="building">house</span> and I didn't know what he said. " </sentence><sentence id="339">You wait here. </sentence><sentence id="340">Don't go anyplace. </sentence><sentence id="341">We have to be together now." </sentence><sentence id="342">And they started burning. </sentence><sentence id="343">It wasn't just my father, it was lots of people. </sentence><sentence id="344">I really can't remember their names, but <span class="populated place">Lopatyn</span>? </sentence><sentence id="345">was one of these. </sentence><sentence id="346">His name should be forgotten really. </sentence><sentence id="347">I remember even how he looked, and then there was other people too. </sentence><sentence id="348">They burned everything. </sentence><sentence id="349">They started burning and there was smoke, and I saw there was a <span class="dlf">bridge</span> not far from us and I saw friends of mine sitting with the feet holding like this, and they were taking them to a <span class="dlf">cemetery</span> to shoot them. </sentence><sentence id="350">> Dov Lopatyn (1900-1944), head of Lakhva Judenrat and former Zionist leader. </sentence><sentence id="351"> And my father said like that "let's run." </sentence><sentence id="352">Before we were running, I was near <span class="env feature">water</span>. </sentence><sentence id="353">The <span class="env feature">water</span> was death, they called the <span class="env feature">water</span> death like "smierc" in Polish. </sentence><sentence id="354">And I saw the Germans. </sentence><sentence id="355">They were fighting with the Jews with knives and with ax and there as one man a Rev-Zionist", the same party as Begin, and he was holding an ax on a German over the head in the <span class="env feature">water</span>, and the German killed him right away and they went to a doctor. </sentence><sentence id="356">And I saw this, and I was standing with my father and my brother and my sister with their hands like this. </sentence><sentence id="357">My father said, "Don't go away. </sentence><sentence id="358">We have to be with each other. </sentence><sentence id="359">Maybe we'll run away." </sentence><sentence id="360">So, it was burning and here I saw something that I took so much revenge, I said to myself, "I'm going to die anyway in a few minutes. </sentence><sentence id="361">It's going to now." </sentence><sentence id="362">You didn't think you're going to survive, you're going to live. </sentence><sentence id="363">Who's going to live?Nobody thought they were going to live, but at least before I die I'm going to have revenge, and I saw that Rochezyn" --a man, he was belonging to the party like Begin and he gave with the ax over the head. </sentence><sentence id="364">So, a man, a doctor was there. </sentence><sentence id="365">He was from <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span> himself, he came like we came, in the wartime, running away from the Germans. </sentence><sentence id="366">So, they told him like that, "We're going to save all your family if you're going to save that German." </sentence><sentence id="367">He says, "You could kill me too because I don't give a damn anymore because I'm not going save him -- he could die." </sentence><sentence id="368">But <span class="populated place">Rochezyn</span> right away they shot him. </sentence><sentence id="369">He got killed in the <span class="env feature">water</span>, but they were fighting with knives, with anything they had, they said, "We're not going to let ourselves just take to the death just like that." </sentence><sentence id="370">They took only the weak. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="414">Q: What did you do to get your revenge? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="416">A: What I did? </sentence><sentence id="417">I was running with my father. </sentence><sentence id="418">We were running away because we saw people running, we run too. </sentence><sentence id="419">It was open, the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, they opened the <span class="dlf">doors</span> there. </sentence><sentence id="420">We started running, and there was <span class="dlf">gardens</span> there, beautiful <span class="dlf">gardens</span> that people made when I took up, I was my mouth was so wet like I thought I was going to die right away, so I got a pickle there, I bent down and I got a pickle, and all the four of us together, and I took that pickle in my mouth and I was holding for ten kilometers were running. </sentence><sentence id="421">It was a place -- <span class="populated place">Prypec</span>, they called. </sentence><sentence id="422">Then I found my friend there with a bullet in it and the blood was going. </sentence><sentence id="423">Fanny Eisen. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="432">Q: Your friend from next <span class="dlf">door</span> in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="434">A: Yes, she's in <span class="populated place">New York</span> now. </sentence><sentence id="435">I took off my shirt and I bandaged her. </sentence><sentence id="436">We didn't know what we were doing. </sentence><sentence id="437">We run again and we left her there, because there was lots of people there, lots of -- we saw so many people there running away from the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="442">Q: Was she with her family also? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="444"> deg Union of Zionists Revisionists; militant political Zionists movement founded and led by </sentence></p><p><sentence id="445"> Vladimir Jabotinsky. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="446"> "Ttzak Rochezyn (1915-1942),Jewish resistance fighter. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="447">A: She was running away by herself, but you know we didn't even know what we were doing because we were like crazy people. </sentence><sentence id="448">My father, we were running right, one after the other. </sentence><sentence id="449">My father said "come" and my sister got winded when we were running, and I thought she was running after us because there were <span class="env feature">woods</span> and <span class="env feature">trees</span>, and I thought she was running after me, and I looked in the back and I didn't see my sister anymore. </sentence><sentence id="450">I saw my brother and my father. </sentence><sentence id="451">I said "Where is my sister?" </sentence><sentence id="452">So, she was there, so I said to the people that were running with us --, a whole bunch of people, many people -- I said, "If you're not going to go after my sister, I'm going to scream so loud that all the Germans are going to come and kill us too, because I don't want to leave her, I'm not going to see my sister." </sentence><sentence id="453">Everybody was running back because they were afraid that I'm going to scream, and I was a very tomboy. </sentence><sentence id="454">I used to bring food to the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> and I used to do such things that a child that age would never do, now especially. </sentence><sentence id="455">The kids, we had to be grown up before we grew up so we run back and we didn't find my sister anymore and I was crying for months. </sentence><sentence id="456">We run away, lying in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> at night. </sentence><sentence id="457">It was the time of the Jewish holidays and it was cold at night and I didn't have nothing, a little dress, and I threw away my shoes so I had bare feet. </sentence><sentence id="458">Everybody had nothing to wear and it was cold and we couldn't make a fire at night because the Germans would come and see us. </sentence><sentence id="459">So, quite a few people were running away from there. </sentence><sentence id="460">We run, we run, we didn't know where we were running. </sentence><sentence id="461">We went into a <span class="building">White-Russian house</span> to take a piece of bread because we didn't have nothing to eat. </sentence><sentence id="462">I still had my pickle. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="479">Q: You were living in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="481">A: In the <span class="env feature">woods</span>. </sentence><sentence id="482">All these years, till the war is finished, we were living in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="485">Q: Can I go back a little bit. </sentence><sentence id="486">When the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> was formed, how long do you remember, not dates, but how long you were there until you burned the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> down and left? </sentence><sentence id="487">Do you have a sense, was it months? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="491">A: Just a few months, not long. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="493">Q: Did you have pretty much what you needed? </sentence><sentence id="494">Was there enough food? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="497">A: There was nothing, there was nothing. </sentence><sentence id="498">It was just a piece of bread we got like a small piece of bread a day. </sentence><sentence id="499">No, people were hungry. </sentence><sentence id="500">That's why I ran out of the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> to bring something but they didn't let me after. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="505">Q: Was it initially fairly easy for you to get out? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="507">A: Well, I was little, so I just went out. </sentence><sentence id="508">I took out, we had to wear a star in the front and the back and I took off the star and I went out. </sentence><sentence id="509">I thought, "If I'm going to do that they're going to kill me." </sentence><sentence id="510">And I knew they would. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="515">Q: Was there <span class="building">school</span>? </sentence><sentence id="516">Were there any activities? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="519">A: Nothing, no <span class="building">school</span> nothing. </sentence><sentence id="520">No. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="523">Q: Were people getting sick? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="525">A: Yes, I had typhus. </sentence><sentence id="526">I got typhus and I told my father, "Papa you go because I'm not going to live anyway. </sentence><sentence id="527">So, at least you and my brother is going to be alive." </sentence><sentence id="528">But he wouldn't leave me. </sentence><sentence id="529">But after, we got separated. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="535">Q: Let me just before we get to that, now your father was on the <span class="building">Jewish council</span> in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, is that right? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="537">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="539">Q: Do you remember how that happened, what he did? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="541">A: They were just having meetings and I think the meetings were discreet that they were afraid to talk about it, what they talked. </sentence><sentence id="542">That's why they burned. </sentence><sentence id="543">When he said, when they went to burn the <span class="populated place">ghettos</span>, they said, "Wait, don't go nowhere." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="547">Q: How did your father get selected to be on the <span class="building">Jewish council</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="549">A: I think because he was very smart, because he had a mouth to talk. </sentence><sentence id="550">I think he could have even been a president, but not in <span class="country">Poland</span> he didn't have a chance to be anything. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="553">Q: How many people were on the <span class="building">council</span>? </sentence><sentence id="554">Was it men and women? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="557">A: Men. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="559">Q: How many? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="561">A: I can't remember now. </sentence><sentence id="562">It was lots. </sentence><sentence id="563">I think five, six, seven people. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="567">Q: Do you know if your dad had any special responsibilities or roles as a member of the <span class="building">council</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="569">A: I don't think anybody -- any -- too many responsibilities. </sentence><sentence id="570">They only had the responsibility -- like everybody used to get a piece of bread. </sentence><sentence id="571">They brought in bread to the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> like a piece, a few ounces of bread they should give everybody you know like they used to come to bring the bread, to take the bread in the committee, like they had to give something like a few ounces of bread a day. </sentence><sentence id="572">That's all. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="577">Q: So they were involved in distributing? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="579">A: Something like that, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="581">Q: Was there a Jewish police group? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="583">A: Yes, there was a Jewish police group, yes. </sentence><sentence id="584">They keep the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, they keep the people that they shouldn't run out. </sentence><sentence id="585">They shouldn't do anything that they should get killed. </sentence><sentence id="586">They protected the people. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="591">Q: So, the <span class="building">council</span> and the police -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="593">A: Worked together. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="595">Q: They worked together and they had to answer to the Germans but -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="597">A: They answered to the Germans that they kept that their people shouldn't get killed. </sentence><sentence id="598">That time I think they didn't know that they're going to take all the Jews and kill them. </sentence><sentence id="599">They thought it was going to be a <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> and soon the war is going to stop. </sentence><sentence id="600">It's not going to be forever. </sentence><sentence id="601">Nobody knew it was going to be so many years. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="607">Q: Do you think they followed all of the German orders or -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="609">A: They followed the orders. </sentence><sentence id="610">If they followed the orders they wouldn't burn the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="611">They would have gone like sheep and died but I don't think anybody of these people -- these people were different kind of people. </sentence><sentence id="612">They heard lots of things and they say, "No, nobody is going to kill us like a sheep, we're not sheep, we're people we are human beings and we're not going to go just like that. </sentence><sentence id="613">Nobody is going to kill us, nobody is going to kill us without a fight. </sentence><sentence id="614">We're going to die anyway but at least we're going to have a fight. </sentence><sentence id="615">We're going to do something about it." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="623">Q: Were you aware of any political organizations, movements? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="625">A: No, I was too young to be aware of these things. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="627">Q: So, did people have weapons? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="629">A: No, nothing. </sentence><sentence id="630">Only they took ax and knives. </sentence><sentence id="631">They didn't have anything. </sentence><sentence id="632">They didn't have no ammunition at all. </sentence><sentence id="633">If they would have ammunition it would be different. </sentence><sentence id="634">I think half of the Germans would be killed. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="635">Q: Is that why they decided to burn the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="636">A: They decided to burn the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> for one reason. </sentence><sentence id="637">That they shouldn't see like it was such a smoke that you wouldn't see where a German is -- where a Jew is. </sentence><sentence id="638">The Germans they didn't see the people, that's why we were able to run. </sentence><sentence id="639">That's the only reason we were able to tear up, it was like the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> was closed with <span class="dlf">wires</span>, and we were able to open these <span class="dlf">wires</span>. </sentence><sentence id="640">The first person that opened these <span class="dlf">wires</span>, died, but then the people started running because it was opened. </sentence><sentence id="641">It was like a <span class="dlf">wire</span> like you could hurt yourself. </sentence><sentence id="642">It wasn't like electric, but you could hurt yourself. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="650">Q: Do you know how long people had thought about doing this? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="652">A: I don't know how long they talked, but I know the last few days when they said they're going to kill the Jews that they were talking about it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="654">Q: You don't know if it had been planned for a while? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="656">A: No, I don't think it was planned for a while. </sentence><sentence id="657">They didn't know, when they knew they were going to kill the Jews, they knew a day before, but the Germans thought the Jews were going to go. </sentence><sentence id="658">They couldn't know when they're going to get killed because they're going to kill them anyway like everybody is going to go like a sheep. </sentence><sentence id="659">Every place they went like sheep, so they're going to go here like sheep, too. </sentence><sentence id="660">But the only thing they didn't think was here that these people are different kind of people. </sentence><sentence id="661">These people will not go like sheep. </sentence><sentence id="662">They won't let themselves get killed like that. </sentence><sentence id="663">They'll fight and they'll do everything they could to make them impossible to do something, to just take the people to the <span class="dlf">graves</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="672">Q: Why do you think that your <span class="populated place">community</span> acted so differently? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="674">A: I don't -- I think that there were many like a Rev-Zionist. </sentence><sentence id="675">They came from the party that was Begin's not like any other party. </sentence><sentence id="676">These people are very tough. </sentence><sentence id="677">These people wouldn't let themselves, like that <span class="populated place">Rochezyn</span>. </sentence><sentence id="678">You know I still see him. </sentence><sentence id="679">He had glasses on. </sentence><sentence id="680">I see him how he looks. </sentence><sentence id="681">I'll never forget his face, that beautiful face that -- he took an ax. </sentence><sentence id="682">He was taking an ax and giving the German over the head you can't imagine in that moment how as a child I felt that you don't just let yourself get killed, but you kill back. </sentence><sentence id="683">You do something about it. </sentence><sentence id="684">I felt that in a few minutes I'm going to fall down anyway. </sentence><sentence id="685">They're going to shoot me, because they were shooting, but I didn't care if I'm going to die, because that time you don't care. </sentence><sentence id="686">You haven't got anything to think about that you're going to survive. </sentence><sentence id="687">Nobody does. </sentence><sentence id="688">You think well I'm going to die. </sentence><sentence id="689">At least I'm going to die knowing that a German got killed even if it's one or two or three that somebody -- that they just didn't go like sheeps. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="706">Q: So this was a real spiritual turning point for you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="708">A: That was something that I felt so good inside even though I knew I'm not going to live. </sentence><sentence id="709">I didn't think that now I'm going to sit now and talk to somebody about it. </sentence><sentence id="710">That I'll be able to tell my story, never. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="714">Q: When it was decided that you were going to burn the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> down, and -- I don't know -- who's idea this was? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="716">A: It was a few people, and I think it has a lot to do with these Zionist people, a lot. </sentence><sentence id="717">These people were tough. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="720">Q: So, there was a strong relationship between the Zionist movement and the <span class="building">council</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="722">A: Oh yes, definitely, for sure. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="724">Q: When it was decided to burn the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> down, did you know immediately what you were doing? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="726">A: I think we knew. </sentence><sentence id="727">My father said, "Wait a minute, I need gasoline." </sentence><sentence id="728">You know like naphtha -- we didn't have electricity there like we had very little electricity, so they put the lamps with -- just a little bit we had, but it was enough. </sentence><sentence id="729">The old <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> was burned. </sentence><sentence id="730">There was nothing left of it. </sentence><sentence id="731">Nothing in one <span class="building">house</span>, nothing, because I was there after the war. </sentence><sentence id="732">I came after the war there and there was nothing left at all. </sentence><sentence id="733">But you know, even after the war when we came I was proud to come there. </sentence><sentence id="734">I lived there over a year. </sentence><sentence id="735">They took away my father to the army. </sentence><sentence id="736">I met my father back when they took him away to the Russian army. </sentence><sentence id="737">I lived there for a year for sure and I gave him my brother to the <span class="building">orphanage</span> because I didn't have any money and I went to the <span class="building">orphanage</span> after the war. </sentence><sentence id="738">I took my brother and I went on the <span class="spatial object">train</span> and they told me "do you have a ticket?" </sentence><sentence id="739">I didn't have a piece a bread even to eat and I was very young. </sentence><sentence id="740">I said, "What kind of ticket. </sentence><sentence id="741">I went through a war, and I was sitting in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> for so many years, do you think I have money to buy a ticket? </sentence><sentence id="742">You can kill me if you want, but I'm not going to give you nothing. </sentence><sentence id="743">I'm going to take my brother and go and if you want to take me off of that <span class="spatial object">train</span>, you'll have to kill me first." </sentence><sentence id="744">So, they let me through. </sentence><sentence id="745">I took my brother to <span class="populated place">Pinsk</span> after the war in an <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="746">I only wanted that they dress him up and I should be able to see him again from that <span class="building">orphanages</span>, from the Russians and I'll bring him back <span class="building">home</span> because he didn't have nothing to wear. </sentence><sentence id="747">He didn't have nothing to eat, so I brought him there. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="770">Q: You were a brave little girl? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="772">A: I had to be. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="773">Q: Let me ask you a bit about what happened when you were in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>. </sentence><sentence id="774">We started to talk about that earlier. </sentence><sentence id="775">You were there for years. </sentence><sentence id="776">Who else was out there? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="777">A: There were Russian people there. </sentence><sentence id="778">There were lots of partisans around us. </sentence><sentence id="779">I was living there. </sentence><sentence id="780">I couldn't find my father, but I found him after. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="785">Q: Let's go back to where you lost your sister, did you ever find her again? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="787">A: No, after the war I found out that they killed her. </sentence><sentence id="788">They found her and they killed her, the Germans. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="791">Q: While you were running to the <span class="env feature">woods</span>, okay. </sentence><sentence id="792">When you went to the <span class="env feature">woods</span>, did you notice the local people on the way. </sentence><sentence id="793">Were they helpful? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="797">A: Everyone helped one another, especially the Jewish people. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="799">Q: What about the farmers or whoever lived along there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="801">A: The farmers, if they would see us, they would give us to the Germans. </sentence><sentence id="802">We couldn't let nobody see us. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="805">Q: So the local people --? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="807">A: The place where we used to live, there were lots of partisans there, so you know the partisans did something. </sentence><sentence id="808">They took everybody from the <span class="building">house</span> to the partisans, like every man that was let's say somebody had a son, somebody had a husband, so they couldn't go and squeal because they would squeal on their own. </sentence><sentence id="809">So, we were able to live around there to be hidden. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="813">Q: I'm a little confused. </sentence><sentence id="814">When you say the people where you used to live everybody was partisans, where are you talking about? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="817">A: When we lived in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>, they went into these little <span class="populated place">towns</span>, like in the <span class="building">country houses</span>, and they took -- the partisans took from each family a member, two members -- like if somebody had two sons -- to the partisans. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="819">Q: As hostages? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="821">A: Not hostages, they should fight for the Russians. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="823">Q: They were all willing to do that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="825">A: Yes, they were willing to do that. </sentence><sentence id="826">Let's say the mother is not going to squeal, not going to go to the Germans and say "my son is a partisan." </sentence><sentence id="827">So, we were around these people, hidden around these people. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="831">Q: So, the Russian partisans were able to pull a lot of the <span class="populated place">local communities</span> in? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="833">A: Oh, yes. </sentence><sentence id="834">They took a lot of <span class="populated place">communities</span> in. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="837">Q: Then they were loyal to you because their families were involved? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="839">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="840">They used to hide us. </sentence><sentence id="841">They used to keep us. </sentence><sentence id="842">They were afraid like I was by a Ukrainian woman and she used to think of me like her child. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="847">Q: So when you said earlier the local people would have shot you, not all of the local people? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="849">A: No, not all, but these places where we were, these people wouldn't do it because of these men that they took away, they mobilized these people. </sentence><sentence id="850">They say, "you're going to come, you're going to fight for us." </sentence><sentence id="851">The partisans were around all over. </sentence><sentence id="852">So, they couldn't do it, they wouldn't do it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="857">Q: Were there many partisan groups? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="859">A: Around us? </sentence><sentence id="860">We saw many, but they saved a lot of Jews too. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="863">Q: Did they all cooperate with each other? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="865">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="866">They weren't bad people. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="869">Q: So, there were many partisan groups that worked individually but supported each other? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="871">A: Yes, in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>. </sentence><sentence id="872">I think they saved so many Jewish people, so many people, like so many children. </sentence><sentence id="873">They did a lot of things for the Jews. </sentence><sentence id="874">They didn't care if you were a Jew or not. </sentence><sentence id="875">They didn't know the difference. </sentence><sentence id="876">They didn't know the difference even, what's a Jew and what's not a Jew. </sentence><sentence id="877">Like one child asked the father, "Am I a Jew too?" </sentence><sentence id="878">He was Jewish like he didn't know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="887">Q: Were there a lot of other kids there? </sentence><sentence id="888">Were there men, were there women, what was the age range? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="891"> A There were lots of kids, lots. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="893">Q: Who took care of you all? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="894">A: We took care of ourselves. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="895">Q: Were there women who started trying to take care of you because your mother wasn't there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="897">A: I met a Ukrainian women. </sentence><sentence id="898">She took care of me. </sentence><sentence id="899">Then when time passed by, like maybe two years I didn't see my father and my brother and we found him after. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="903">Q: So, you all got separated? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="905">A: We got separated, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="907">Q: How long were you in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> before you got separated? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="909">A: Maybe seven months something like that. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="911">Q: Were you still with your friend? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="913">A: I met my friend after. </sentence><sentence id="914">Somebody told me my friend is living not far from me and I went over. </sentence><sentence id="915">I walked with somebody, a man that he was a journalist before the war but he was in the partisans and I asked him, "please, could you take me?" </sentence><sentence id="916">He was a Jewish man. </sentence><sentence id="917">I said, "Could you take me to see, I think I heard that my friend is living in that place, so and so" -- I don't remember the name of the place, but it wasn't far. </sentence><sentence id="918">We had to walk maybe an hour, hour and half. </sentence><sentence id="919">He said, "sure, come with me." </sentence><sentence id="920">I went there and the father was sitting there and he said "I'm going to take <span class="populated place">Feigele</span> (ph). </sentence><sentence id="921">I found out she's alive and I'm going to bring her -- she's with people. </sentence><sentence id="922">She's by people." </sentence><sentence id="923">So, I said, "could I come with you?" </sentence><sentence id="924">He says "sure." </sentence><sentence id="925">When I came over there she was full of lice, you know, and you know what we did, we took ashes. </sentence><sentence id="926">We didn't have any soap, and we take the ashes and we put in a piece of cloth by Christian people, like Russian people and we put some cloth and we had warm water, you didn't have water. </sentence><sentence id="927">You had to bring <span class="env feature">water</span> from outside. </sentence><sentence id="928">We didn't have water in the <span class="building">house</span>. </sentence><sentence id="929">We made her we put her in something to make her a <span class="spatial object">box</span> and took her out from these and then we went back with her and I took her out and I had lice all over my hands. </sentence><sentence id="930">We washed her once and another time with water and then the woman gave us something to dry her. </sentence><sentence id="931">These people didn't have anything to dry her and she got dressed up with something that she had. </sentence><sentence id="932">She didn't have nothing to wear. </sentence><sentence id="933">Then her father took her back and we were sleeping at night and she dreamed her grandmother said that Germans were running after us and they were going to kill us, and I had a dream too and I woke up and I was screaming. </sentence><sentence id="934">I says, "You know they're going to kill us again." </sentence><sentence id="935">The whole nights, all these years I have dreams. </sentence><sentence id="936">I always wake up with dreams that they they're going to kill my family. </sentence><sentence id="937">I have three children now, that they're going to kill my children and I'm going to be alone again. </sentence><sentence id="938">I'm going to have nobody. </sentence><sentence id="939">So, that time, we both fell asleep and we dreamed that we're running and we're running and they're going to kill us. </sentence><sentence id="940">Somebody's going to kill us. </sentence><sentence id="941">They're running after us. </sentence><sentence id="942">She said, "I have such a dream that they're going to kill us again," and I said, "yes, I have the same dream." </sentence><sentence id="943">We woke up in a sweat. </sentence><sentence id="944">I stayed with her for a few days and I went back where I was, where that Ukrainian woman, she took care of me very much. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="977">Q: Do you think when you look back on this that life was different for girls and for women than it was for the men and the boys? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="979">A: I think so. </sentence><sentence id="980">A woman wasn't -- I think by the Russians a woman was more than it was by the Poles or someplace else. </sentence><sentence id="981">But I think that it was a difference, like they thought a woman can do nothing, men could do more. </sentence><sentence id="982">Even no matter how aggressive you were and how much you were able to do so a woman is not much, she can do as much as a man. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="987">Q: You were a tough kid. </sentence><sentence id="988">Did you feel that your responsibilities were the same as the boys your age or that you were treated differently? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="991">A: I didn't think at that time how I was treated. </sentence><sentence id="992">I just felt "I'm going to survive and I'm going to look where my father is." </sentence><sentence id="993">I didn't think about anything. </sentence><sentence id="994">I didn't think how they're going to treat me how they treat me. </sentence><sentence id="995">I knew I had to survive and I'm going to do everything possible to do it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1001">Q: When you were with the partisans did everybody have certain responsibilities? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1003">A: We had the responsibility to help in the <span class="interior space">garden</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1004">Like I was with the Ukrainian woman, we went -- I wanted to milk the cows, I learned how to milk. </sentence><sentence id="1005">I went to the <span class="dlf">fields</span> with the potatoes. </sentence><sentence id="1006">It wasn't like now they have <span class="spatial object">tractors</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1007">I worked. </sentence><sentence id="1008">I helped them. </sentence><sentence id="1009">I loved to do it. </sentence><sentence id="1010">I loved it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1019">Q: Were the boys working in the <span class="dlf">fields</span> also? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1021">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1023">Q: Everybody? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1025">A: Everybody. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1027">Q: So everyone worked together? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1029">A: Together, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1030">Q: Do you know if when they made certain decisions whether the women were included in making decisions or whether it was much the way --? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1031">A: I think the men only, not the women. </sentence><sentence id="1032">They told the women what to do. </sentence><sentence id="1033">I don't think the women made any decisions all together. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1037">Q: Women filled a very traditional role? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1039">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="1040">Even the Russians, they thought "A Jew can't even fight. </sentence><sentence id="1041">He doesn't even know how to fight. </sentence><sentence id="1042">How a Jew could fight." </sentence><sentence id="1043">But, the Jews -- they gave them guns and they were fighting. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1049">Q: So, even in the partisan groups, they were very good to the Jews but they wanted to make their own decisions and they didn't include the Jews in these? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1051">A: No, they took the Jews to fight also, but they didn't -- I don't think they thought a Jew could fight as much as a non-Jew. </sentence><sentence id="1052">I don't believe that they thought that. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1055">Q: So, from the way that these groups were organized, was most of the decision making done by the Soviets? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1057"> A Yes, the Soviets, but I don't think they made a difference between a Jew and a non-Jew. </sentence><sentence id="1058">The only thing they thought was that the people by themselves, not in the more like somebody was a lieutenant, or they run away from the army or something, they run away from the Germans, | don't think they thought about the Jew being different. </sentence><sentence id="1059">I don't believe feeling even then by Ukrainian women that I was a Jew. </sentence><sentence id="1060">She didn't think of me as a Jew. </sentence><sentence id="1061">She thought of me as a little girl that's run away from a <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> and she wants to survive and she wants to help me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1067">Q: I understand that, what I'm trying to figure out is initially when you joined these people, was there a <span class="building">structure</span> in place where the non-Jews were making the decisions and they were basically hiding you and you were helping them but it was their movement, or was everybody -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1069">A: No, I think the men made the decision mostly, the Soviet men. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1071">Q: The Soviet men, or Soviet and Jewish men? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1073">A: I think there were a lot of Jewish men that they made decisions too. </sentence><sentence id="1074">They were lieutenants or like big shots. </sentence><sentence id="1075">They made decisions too. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1076">Q: Now, let me ask you a slightly different question. </sentence><sentence id="1077">Were you -- did you come from a religious family? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1078">A: No, not a religious but non not religious either. </sentence><sentence id="1079">We ate kosher in the <span class="building">house</span> -- like even now, I'm not going to eat pork. </sentence><sentence id="1080">I can't even if I want to. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1084">Q: So when you were in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>, and you were in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> for several years? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1086">A: We had to eat whatever they had, but I never ate pork. </sentence><sentence id="1087">If I knew in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> that's Yom Kippur -- one time a friend, he is now in <span class="populated place">Montreal</span> but he went to <span class="populated place">Toronto</span> to live -- he passed by. </sentence><sentence id="1088">When he told, "today is Yom Kippur," he passed by like he didn't have nothing to wear and I saw him and I didn't even believe he's alive. </sentence><sentence id="1089">And he passed by and he said to me, "today is Yom Kippur." </sentence><sentence id="1090">I didn't eat. </sentence><sentence id="1091">I didn't want to eat anything even though we didn't have much to eat, we were hungry most of the time. </sentence><sentence id="1092">We were in the <span class="env feature">water</span> and that Ukrainian woman said to me that the Germans were on the top. </sentence><sentence id="1093">They were shooting. </sentence><sentence id="1094">They surrounded us, the Germans, and we were lying in the <span class="env feature">water</span> very deep like in the time that was in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> already, and we're lying. </sentence><sentence id="1095">She said to me, "Make with your feet like this because otherwise the feet will fall off. </sentence><sentence id="1096">They came off," she said, "make with your feet, just work with them, just like exercise with them, do something, because otherwise you're going to lose your feet." </sentence><sentence id="1097">Up there they were shooting us with <span class="spatial object">airplanes</span> and around they were shouting, the Germans were running. </sentence><sentence id="1098">In the middle of that the partisans came and they started fighting with the Germans. </sentence><sentence id="1099">You know they were going like, how could I say it in English -- even if I'm so many years, since I was 18 years old in <span class="country">Canada</span> -- na shtyki(r), they were going with big knives like this one on one. </sentence><sentence id="1100">They didn't care. </sentence><sentence id="1101">They said, "we're going to get killed, we're going to get killed," and we were lying in the <span class="env feature">water</span> and all of sudden from nowhere they came and they saved probably our lives at that time. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1118">Q: Were there other holidays that you were aware of? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1120">A: No. </sentence><sentence id="1121">I didn't even know which day it was. </sentence><sentence id="1122">We didn't have calendars, we didn't have nothing. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1126">Q: So religion wasn't that important to you while you were hiding out? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1128">A: It wasn't not important, I wasn't aware of anything. </sentence><sentence id="1129">You don't think about anything. </sentence><sentence id="1130">You only think that you have to survive and if you had a piece of bread or if you have something -- you know what I was praying. </sentence><sentence id="1131">I was sitting down and I was praying, "If I'm 8 With bayonets (Russian) going to be able to live, and if I'm going to survive, am I going to have bread on the <span class="spatial object">table</span> as much as I want to eat. </sentence><sentence id="1132">I should be able to eat enough. </sentence><sentence id="1133">Is that going to happen? </sentence><sentence id="1134">I want to be warm. </sentence><sentence id="1135">I don't want to be cold anymore. </sentence><sentence id="1136">I should be able to just be in a warm, lie down in a warm <span class="spatial object">oven</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1137">Because they had <span class="spatial object">ovens</span> that they were baking and cooking there you know, "and I should like down there just to feel the warmth and just have bread. </sentence><sentence id="1138">Am I ever going to have that? </sentence><sentence id="1139">Is it ever going to happen to me?" </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1153">Q: You had no idea? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1155">A: No. </sentence><sentence id="1156"> Tape #2 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1159">Q: I want to hear a little bit more about what your life was like when you were in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> because now we think you were probably in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> for three years, right? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1161">A: A few years, yes. </sentence><sentence id="1162">About two years I think I ran away in "42, from "42 to "45. </sentence><sentence id="1163">It was quite a few years, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1167">Q: Was there a typical day? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1169">A: I think every day we were scared. </sentence><sentence id="1170">Every day we were running someplace out. </sentence><sentence id="1171">Everyday we were struggling to have something to eat because it was very bad with food. </sentence><sentence id="1172">I was like a toothpick, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1173">It was such hard times that it's very hard to describe times like that. </sentence><sentence id="1174">We were from one place to another. </sentence><sentence id="1175">Even that one I was running, if not that I knew that the partisans were around I wouldn't have survived, never. </sentence><sentence id="1176">Sometimes they used to give us to eat, they used to give us to eat -- but most of the time we sometimes we used to steal a piece of bread because we didn't have any, that woman even. </sentence><sentence id="1177">Many times we went to her <span class="building">house</span> when we knew the partisans were around, in the winter, in the <span class="building">house</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1178">We went to her <span class="interior space">garden</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1179">She was to me like a mother, couldn't be better. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1191">Q: When you were out picking vegetables or potatoes, whose <span class="interior space">garden</span> was it? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1193">A: Sometimes their <span class="dlf">gardens</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1195">Q: <span class="interior space">Gardens</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1197">A: Sometimes we used to make a fire, a small fire in the daytime. </sentence><sentence id="1198">At night we were afraid. </sentence><sentence id="1199">We used to take and bake them inside, with the ashes and bake them and eat them. </sentence><sentence id="1200">Sometimes we used to eat raw, especially at night we were afraid to make a fire so we were freezing. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1205">Q: Were these anybody's <span class="dlf">gardens</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1207">A: Everybody's. </sentence><sentence id="1208">We used to pass by. </sentence><sentence id="1209">Sometimes we used to steal a chicken, burn the feathers and make it. </sentence><sentence id="1210">I can't even describe how the used to make it. </sentence><sentence id="1211">That woman used to make it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1217">Q: You were on the move all the time? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1219">A: All the time. </sentence><sentence id="1220">Moved from one place. </sentence><sentence id="1221">Not even three days in one place, sometimes we used to stay a few days in one place, make ourselves go and bring something. </sentence><sentence id="1222">We would bring some bread from the partisans and bring some potatoes and bring something we ate, and we stayed a few days and then we heard the Germans are coming and we run again. </sentence><sentence id="1223">We run from one place to another. </sentence><sentence id="1224">We never were in one place. </sentence><sentence id="1225">We didn't stay too long in one place. </sentence><sentence id="1226">We couldn't. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1235">Q: Did you stay with one group of partisans? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1237">A: No, we didn't stay with a group of partisans. </sentence><sentence id="1238">We stayed with lots of people. </sentence><sentence id="1239">We went from one group to another one. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1243">Q: But they all treated you nice? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1245">A: They treated me nice. </sentence><sentence id="1246">They treated us good. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1249">Q: How many were in your group running? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1251">A: The only time I thought, "If I'm going to get killed there, it's not going to be as a Jew, it's going to be as a human being, as a person." </sentence><sentence id="1252">I was with these people, and I met the partisans in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1255">Q: Did that make you feel any better? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1257">A: Yes, even if you get killed, at least you're not going to get killed because you're a Jew. </sentence><sentence id="1258">For what? </sentence><sentence id="1259">Because you're Jewish. </sentence><sentence id="1260">Because you happen to be born a Jew. </sentence><sentence id="1261">The only time that I can think of that. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1267">Q: It made a lot more sense to you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1269">A: It made a lot more sense. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1271">Q: Were you in constant fear? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1273">A: Yes, all the time. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1275">Q: Now, when you were running because you said you were moving quite a bit, how many people would normally be traveling with you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1277">A: There were lots of Jewish kids that ran away without their parents. </sentence><sentence id="1278">They didn't have their parents. </sentence><sentence id="1279">They didn't have their mothers, they didn't have the fathers. </sentence><sentence id="1280">There were lots. </sentence><sentence id="1281">There were about 20 people. </sentence><sentence id="1282">Sometimes more, sometimes we met other people on the way. </sentence><sentence id="1283">Everybody was in different groups, we met different kinds of groups of people in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> living there like gypsies. </sentence><sentence id="1284">The gypsies were living there. </sentence><sentence id="1285">They taught me how to draw cards, how to -- even though I never believed in it, because the gypsies were running from the Germans too. </sentence><sentence id="1286">They were living in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1287">And they were very nice, very, very nice people, but they were liars. </sentence><sentence id="1288">You could never believe anything, but they were living in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1289">Lots of times we were with gypsies. </sentence><sentence id="1290">Sometimes for weeks. </sentence><sentence id="1291">We used to make a <span class="building">tent</span>, like a <span class="building">tent</span> from wood and we used to sleep there. </sentence><sentence id="1292">Like if you make from wood something you know like even if an <span class="spatial object">airplane</span> passes by they don't see it because it's only wood. </sentence><sentence id="1293">So, we made like that. </sentence><sentence id="1294">These people that were together that we met, every time we met somebody else we were never together with the same people. </sentence><sentence id="1295">We always go that you're going to be here, I'm going to go someplace else because you are afraid you're going to stay in one place they're going to get to know that somebody is going to tell on you. </sentence><sentence id="1296">But when I met my father it was different. </sentence><sentence id="1297">At that time was like even before the liberation. </sentence><sentence id="1298">I thought I was liberated already-- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1321">Q: I want to get to that, but let me ask you a few more questions about your life in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1322">There were some people who were always with you for long periods of time? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1325">A: Yes, children mostly that run away from the <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1326">Lots of kids after the war -- I have one friend in <span class="country">Israel</span> that she survived. </sentence><sentence id="1327">She was there and another one was in <span class="populated place">New York</span>, but she's in <span class="country">Israel</span> too. </sentence><sentence id="1328">She and her brother and her father were there too. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1333">Q: Were these kids about your own age? </sentence><sentence id="1334">Were there many adults taking care of you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1337">A: About my own age, yes. </sentence><sentence id="1338">Sometimes without adults, they were by themselves. </sentence><sentence id="1339">They went to the partisans to get some bread, to get something to eat. </sentence><sentence id="1340">They used to give us to eat. </sentence><sentence id="1341">They used to go to the partisans and they used to ask, because they weren't far away and we knew it, otherwise we wouldn't be able to survive. </sentence><sentence id="1342">So, the only place we were able to get to eat, because if you went into a <span class="building">house</span>, to have something to eat and you still some people used to tell they are going to tell on us. </sentence><sentence id="1343">Even these people that they weren't -- they didn't take these in the, in the partisans. </sentence><sentence id="1344">You know, like depends on the <span class="populated place">district</span> you were. </sentence><sentence id="1345">Many <span class="populated place">district</span> it took these people to the partisans. </sentence><sentence id="1346">You know, like their sons and their -- yeah? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1357">Q: So you all stuck together, the kids? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1359">A: Yes, but we weren't together at the same time, all the time. </sentence><sentence id="1360">We went away and then we met again. </sentence><sentence id="1361">We were going because we were afraid. </sentence><sentence id="1362">I was especially afraid to stay in one place. </sentence><sentence id="1363">I was mostly with that woman, that Ukrainian woman. </sentence><sentence id="1364">Wherever she went I was going with her. </sentence><sentence id="1365">She was afraid. </sentence><sentence id="1366">Her sons were in the partisans and if they would catch her they would kill her. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1375">Q: Did you get involved in any fighting? </sentence><sentence id="1376">I know the Germans were trying to clear that <span class="region">area</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1377">A: No. </sentence><sentence id="1378">I was too young for these things. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1379">Q: But you were very aware of fighting all around you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1381">A: Of course, all the time. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1383">Q: Like what? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1385">A: Like we passed by and we saw a <span class="building">church</span> burning. </sentence><sentence id="1386">The people, they put wood, they put nails with wood around and we passed by and we heard from fire -- people are screaming from a big fire, and we couldn't even go near there. </sentence><sentence id="1387">The Germans, they put nails in wood and they closed it up around and they burned these people, a full <span class="building">church</span> of people. </sentence><sentence id="1388">It wasn't a <span class="building">church</span>, it was like a <span class="building">house</span> because they didn't believe in <span class="building">churches</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1389">They didn't believe in God, the Russians. </sentence><sentence id="1390">It used to be a <span class="building">church</span> but then it was something else. </sentence><sentence id="1391">I don't know what. </sentence><sentence id="1392">They passed by near there, not far. </sentence><sentence id="1393">We were in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> and there was a like one place in the <span class="region">middle of nowhere</span> and they were burning. </sentence><sentence id="1394">We heard them screaming. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1405">Q: Do you have any other really outstanding memories of dodging the gunfire or trying to keep safe from the fighting? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1407">A: Keep safe from the fighting, I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="1408">So many memories I have but I don't know where to start. </sentence><sentence id="1409">We were always running from something. </sentence><sentence id="1410">We were always running from fighting. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1415">Q: How did all of this end, and how did you find your father? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1417">A: I was running in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>, that was before liberation, maybe a few months. </sentence><sentence id="1418">They were running, all of a sudden we come to a place, I see my father and my brother. </sentence><sentence id="1419">My father was there working and you know he was repairing shoes for the partisans and that way he was survived and they were sending him to fight. </sentence><sentence id="1420">He was fighting, with guns, they were going to little <span class="populated place">towns</span> where the Germans were and they were fighting. </sentence><sentence id="1421">That's why they were able to keep my brother in the partisans with my father. </sentence><sentence id="1422">They were there. </sentence><sentence id="1423">When I met him, everything changed. </sentence><sentence id="1424">After that, liberation was maybe a few months after, was the liberation and I met my father. </sentence><sentence id="1425">He survived with the partisans, really. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1435">Q: So when you saw your father and your brother -- </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1436">A: You can't imagine. </sentence><sentence id="1437">I thought they died already, because when we run away from the <span class="building">house</span> and I got typhus and I told my father, "Papa leave me because I'm not going to live, you see I'm so sick." </sentence><sentence id="1438">So, my father says, "if I'm going to leave you what is my life going to be all about? </sentence><sentence id="1439">I'm not going to be able to live." </sentence><sentence id="1440">All of sudden we were separated. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1446">I don't even know how. </sentence><sentence id="1447">I can't even explain to you how because when you run, everybody runs. </sentence><sentence id="1448">You run and all of a sudden there's <span class="env feature">trees</span> and <span class="env feature">woods</span> and you don't see each other. </sentence><sentence id="1449">You don't see where you go. </sentence><sentence id="1450">You get separated. </sentence><sentence id="1451">I was going with people. </sentence><sentence id="1452">I was running. </sentence><sentence id="1453">When you're running you don't look where you're going. </sentence><sentence id="1454">I thought my father was after me, just like I thought my sister is behind me when I couldn't find her anymore. </sentence><sentence id="1455">My sister, she died. </sentence><sentence id="1456">They killed her after. </sentence><sentence id="1457">And she said she would have been my sister was running with me, she said "Zina, look the blood on my face." </sentence><sentence id="1458">That was only an ear that was wounded and then I run back and I never found her and I thought this happened to my father, the same thing. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1472">Q: So when you saw your father and brother, it must have been like a miracle? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1474">A: It was a miracle. </sentence><sentence id="1475">It was such an emotion, I thought to myself, "My God, I'm not alone in this world. </sentence><sentence id="1476">I have my father. </sentence><sentence id="1477">I have my brother." </sentence><sentence id="1478">You know I didn't see him after the war. </sentence><sentence id="1479">I got married I was about 15-1/2 years old and I went to <span class="country">Canada</span> and my father went to <span class="country">Israel</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1480">I saw him after 22 years, I didn't see my father and I came to see my father. </sentence><sentence id="1481">I think he died from a broken heart. </sentence><sentence id="1482">A year later I saw him for the first time. </sentence><sentence id="1483">I wasn't able to afford, because my husband didn't make a lot of money. </sentence><sentence id="1484">I married a man who was 16 years older than me. </sentence><sentence id="1485">I didn't have such a great life, a very, very hard life. </sentence><sentence id="1486">I went to <span class="country">Israel</span> after 22 years being in <span class="country">Canada</span>, I went to <span class="country">Israel</span> to see my father and a year later he dies from a stroke because I think he lost a wife and three children and he loved my mother very much. </sentence><sentence id="1487">He died from a broken heart. </sentence><sentence id="1488">That's the only thing I could say, so you could imagine that after the war, after I met my father how it was such an emotion to me. </sentence><sentence id="1489">I thought to myself, "I'm alone in the whole world and here I have somebody. </sentence><sentence id="1490">I have a brother, I have my father." </sentence><sentence id="1491">That was unbelievable. </sentence><sentence id="1492">I can't even say what happened to me at that time. </sentence><sentence id="1493">I felt I'm just like somebody else, too. </sentence><sentence id="1494">A lot of kids run away. </sentence><sentence id="1495">They had their father, they had a sister or a brother. </sentence><sentence id="1496">Some were alone. </sentence><sentence id="1497">They didn't have nobody. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1522">Q: What happened to this Ukrainian woman? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1524">A: I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="1525">After I met my father, I left her in a very nice way. </sentence><sentence id="1526">We were going away in another <span class="region">side</span> my father was. </sentence><sentence id="1527">I stayed with my father already. </sentence><sentence id="1528">We said goodbye to each other crying and I never saw her again. </sentence><sentence id="1529">I don't know what's happened to her, but I'm sure she survived. </sentence><sentence id="1530">I know she had two sons in the Partisans and one died. </sentence><sentence id="1531">One got killed. </sentence><sentence id="1532">I remember their names and I remember how they looked even. </sentence><sentence id="1533">She was really special. </sentence><sentence id="1534">I don't know if not for her I would be able to survive. </sentence><sentence id="1535">I wouldn't be able to live. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1548">Q: What happened after you reunited with your father and brother? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1549">A: After I was with them, I didn't leave them for a moment. </sentence><sentence id="1550">I was afraid that if I'm going to leave them that they're going to disappear and something is going to happen to them. </sentence><sentence id="1551">So, even when we're sleeping -- we're sleeping one here and on the <span class="interior space">floor</span>, in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>, I was afraid I'm going to lose them. </sentence><sentence id="1552">I'm not going to be able to find them anymore, so I was afraid to leave for a second. </sentence><sentence id="1553">Wherever they were I think I was near. </sentence><sentence id="1554">I was afraid to leave them. </sentence><sentence id="1555">You know, I was very scared. </sentence><sentence id="1556">I was a very scared child. </sentence><sentence id="1557">You know that even after the war, and the war finished, we were in a <span class="populated place">camp</span> with my husband, because I married young in <span class="country">Germany</span> in <span class="populated place">Hess-Lichtenau</span>", and I went one time out and I saw a movie. </sentence><sentence id="1558">It was my life exactly what I went through in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, in the <span class="env feature">woods</span>, with everything. </sentence><sentence id="1559">I fainted. </sentence><sentence id="1560">I fell down on the <span class="interior space">floor</span> and I fainted and you know for two years I was dizzy. </sentence><sentence id="1561">I came to <span class="country">Canada</span> and I was afraid to leave a <span class="dlf">door</span> closed, because my <span class="dlf">door</span> was closed I'd leave it open. </sentence><sentence id="1562">I thought I was going to faint. </sentence><sentence id="1563">I was afraid to be alone in the <span class="building">house</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1564">My <span class="dlf">door</span> was open like anybody could have gone in, if it would be the violence like now, and kill me. </sentence><sentence id="1565">I was afraid. </sentence><sentence id="1566">I came to <span class="country">Canada</span> with a little baby. </sentence><sentence id="1567">I was about 18 years old and I came to <span class="country">Canada</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1568">Q: I'm going to get to that but let me just go back. </sentence><sentence id="1569">So, when you were with your father and brother, you stayed close to them and you were still out in the <span class="env feature">wood</span> fighting for a while? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1572">A: Yes, a little while. </sentence><sentence id="1573">The liberation was maybe two weeks after, that's all, so we still had very bad time that time, like we were in the <span class="env feature">water</span> again, for the second time we were leaving in the <span class="env feature">water</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1574">Under the <span class="env feature">water</span>, the Germans were around on the <span class="spatial object">airplanes</span> on the top and they were shooting, and we were lying down in the <span class="env feature">water</span> again, you know like I would have froze up my feet, my arms. </sentence><sentence id="1575">Also, my father was talking like that woman. </sentence><sentence id="1576">He said, "Do something, do something with your feet. </sentence><sentence id="1577">Do something with your arms because they're going to fall off." </sentence><sentence id="1578">About three days later, the liberation was after that, but that time I thought for sure now we're going to die because the <span class="spatial object">airplanes</span> were like this, over our heads and the Germans were all around. </sentence><sentence id="1579">That time my father was involved with the partisans. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1588">Q: You were hiding in the <span class="env feature">river</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1590">A: In the <span class="env feature">water</span>, it wasn't a <span class="env feature">river</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1591">It wasn't a <span class="env feature">river</span>, it was like --it wasn't quick sand, but it looked like quick sand. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1594">Q: Like a <span class="env feature">swamp</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1596">A: Like a <span class="env feature">swamp</span>, yes. </sentence><sentence id="1597">It is very hard to describe that even. </sentence><sentence id="1598">It's impossible, because nobody could understand it. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1599"> * <span class="populated place">Hessisch-Lichtenau</span> </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1600">Q: That you would be hiding in <span class="env feature">swamps</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1601">A: Dirty, filthy, no food, nothing to eat for days. </sentence><sentence id="1602">For days we didn't have a piece of bread. </sentence><sentence id="1603">That was after I met my father already, but at least I knew we were together and if we're going to die, it's going to be all of us. </sentence><sentence id="1604">At least we're going to be in one place. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1609">Q: Can you describe liberation? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1611">A: Yes, I could describe liberation because I couldn't believe it. </sentence><sentence id="1612">They started screaming that, "you're liberated, you're liberated, we are liberated," you know, "the Russians are here, we are liberated," you know. </sentence><sentence id="1613">I was screaming, I was yelling, I was jumping, you know, and I was holding my father and my brother like this, like all around and I said "My God, we are liberated. </sentence><sentence id="1614">Can you believe that?" </sentence><sentence id="1615">My father at that time was maybe 40 years old, 42 or something like that. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1621">Q: You saw the Russian troops coming? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1623">A: Yes, the Russians, they came with their music playing. </sentence><sentence id="1624">The Russians always -- even when we were in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> we would hear the Russians. </sentence><sentence id="1625">They would always say, "sing and dance because you never know tomorrow what's going to be." </sentence><sentence id="1626">They are not afraid of anything. </sentence><sentence id="1627">They're not afraid of nothing, and I told a woman that I wanted to run. </sentence><sentence id="1628">She said, "What are you afraid of something? </sentence><sentence id="1629">So, if you're going to die, you die one time. </sentence><sentence id="1630">You don't die twice." </sentence><sentence id="1631">I said, "You know I'm afraid to be in one place all the time." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1641">Q: You're used to running? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1643">A: I'm used to running, that's right, run. </sentence><sentence id="1644">I think I was tough -- I don't think I'd be able to go through the same thing now. </sentence><sentence id="1645">In the mind and I'm thinking now I wouldn't be able to survive, I don't think so. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1649">Q: Well, you did what you had to do? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1651">A: I was terrible. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1653">Q: Did the Russians treat you well upon liberation? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1655">A: Yes, very well, but after they took away my father into the army right away and left me and my brother alone. </sentence><sentence id="1656">Like I told you before, they took him to the <span class="building">orphanage</span>, without anything. </sentence><sentence id="1657">Without any bread without anything. </sentence><sentence id="1658">I didn't have nothing to eat after the war, nothing. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1663">Q: How long were you with your father and brother after liberation? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1665">A: After liberation, maybe a few weeks. </sentence><sentence id="1666">With my brother I was with him all the time, but I gave him to the <span class="building">orphanage</span> because I wanted him to go to <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1667">I wanted him to have something. </sentence><sentence id="1668">And I went myself too to <span class="building">school</span> after the war. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1673">Q: Where were you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1675">A: <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1676">I came to <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1679">Q: Where were you liberated? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1681">A: I came to the <span class="region">Russian side</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1683">Q: I'm sorry -- where were you liberated? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1685">A: I was liberated near <span class="populated place">Mazyr</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1686">It's a <span class="populated place">town</span> near <span class="country">Russia</span> there because we were running. </sentence><sentence id="1687">We run away so far that we didn't know where we were running. </sentence><sentence id="1688">So, we're liberated around there. </sentence><sentence id="1689">Right away we came to that place. </sentence><sentence id="1690">It's a big <span class="populated place">city</span> and they took away my father to the army, and they took my brother and I went to <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> to the place -- because I knew lots of Jews are there. </sentence><sentence id="1691">When I came, I met lots of my friends, lots of people that I was in the <span class="env feature">woods</span> together who were living in the same <span class="building">house</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1692">You see the <span class="building">house</span> the Germans took away and then the Russian people moved in. </sentence><sentence id="1693">So, they were <span class="building">Jewish houses</span>, so we moved into the <span class="building">houses</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1694">They all lived there. </sentence><sentence id="1695">Then I stared -- when I was living there I thought to myself, "What am I going to do with my brother? </sentence><sentence id="1696">He hasn't got a pair of shoes. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1697">He's got bare feet, with nothing on his feet. </sentence><sentence id="1698">What am I going to do with him? </sentence><sentence id="1699">How is he going to go to <span class="building">school</span>?" </sentence><sentence id="1700">At that time four years younger than me. </sentence><sentence id="1701">I was about 14 years old, so he was about ten, so "what am I going to do with him?" </sentence><sentence id="1702">I have to dress him up at least so I said to my brother, "you know what" -- in <span class="populated place">Pinsk</span> there was a big <span class="populated place">city</span>, there is an <span class="building">orphanage</span> there and somebody gave me the address. </sentence><sentence id="1703">I said, "you know we'll go together. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1704">We'll go on the <span class="spatial object">train</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1705">He said to me, "How are you going to go on the <span class="spatial object">train</span>?" </sentence><sentence id="1706">I said "You don't worry how I'm going to go. </sentence><sentence id="1707">I'm going to go, don't worry." </sentence><sentence id="1708">So I told you when I went on the <span class="spatial object">train</span>, "you could kill me because I don't have a ticket." </sentence><sentence id="1709">So I went and got him into the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1710">Then my father wrote me that he's coming back from the army. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1711">Then, you know what I did? </sentence><sentence id="1712">I went and I stealed him from the <span class="building">orphanage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1713">| told him I'm going for a walk with him. </sentence><sentence id="1714">When I took him out and we went back on the <span class="spatial object">train</span> the same thing -- I didn't have any money so I went without money like that. </sentence><sentence id="1715">So, I was standing at that time, when they came to control the tickets, you know, the middle [indecipherable] there is a <span class="interior space">platform</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1716">I went to the <span class="dlf">platform</span> with him and I stood there. </sentence><sentence id="1717">When the ticket control passed by I went back to the <span class="spatial object">train</span> and that's the way I came back from <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> from <span class="populated place">Pinsk</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1718">It didn't take long. </sentence><sentence id="1719">It took maybe an hour. </sentence><sentence id="1720">But there an hour, ... And I brought him back, and we went to my father to <span class="populated place">Lodz</span>, to <span class="country">Poland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1721">Then I met my husband there. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1722">Q: You met your first husband there? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1723">A: My first husband, in <span class="populated place">Lodz</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1725">Q: How long were you in <span class="populated place">Lodz</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1727">A: Not long. </sentence><sentence id="1728">I was in <span class="populated place">Lodz</span> and then my husband says he wants to go to the <span class="region">German side</span>, to <span class="country">Germany</span> because from <span class="country">Germany</span> we could go to <span class="country">Canada</span> or <span class="country">Israel</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1729">We didn't think to go to <span class="country">Canada</span>, but one time when I had my baby and we were standing for milk in a place and they said, "You register for <span class="country">Canada</span> but you're not going to be able to go," they told my husband, "because you have a little baby and that baby's a few months old." </sentence><sentence id="1730">And he said, "Let me register and maybe we'll see," because he was a tailor and they needed tailors. </sentence><sentence id="1731">Then they called us to the <span class="building">UNRRA</span>". </sentence><sentence id="1732">We came to <span class="country">Canada</span> in 1948. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1739">Q: Where did you leave your father and your brother? </sentence><sentence id="1740">Where did you leave them behind? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1743">A: In <span class="populated place">Lodz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1744">My father went before to <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1745">He left us behind when I got married because my father didn't want me to get married. </sentence><sentence id="1746">My father said to me, "you're too young" and he said to me "you could be a lawyer." </sentence><sentence id="1747">I said, "a woman a lawyer?" </sentence><sentence id="1748">He said, "What's wrong with women?" </sentence><sentence id="1749">You see my father was modern, even in these years. </sentence><sentence id="1750">My father thought, "What's wrong with women? </sentence><sentence id="1751">You're more smart than any man I know. </sentence><sentence id="1752">Why can't you be a lawyer." </sentence><sentence id="1753">He wanted me to go because I was very good in <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1754">I went to <span class="building">school</span> and I used to make two grades in one year. </sentence><sentence id="1755">So, he told me I have to go to <span class="building">school</span> to study and make something of myself. </sentence><sentence id="1756">What I'm going to make I want it to be advocate. </sentence><sentence id="1757">He said, "woman, a girl," he said "what's wrong with girls? </sentence><sentence id="1758">There's nothing with girls. </sentence><sentence id="1759">A girl could be a lawyer, too. </sentence><sentence id="1760">They more smart than men are, some women." </sentence><sentence id="1761">So, I didn't listen to him and I said, "Papa I'm going to go away if you're not going to let me get married." </sentence><sentence id="1762">I fell in love with my husband. </sentence><sentence id="1763">He was in a Polish uniform. </sentence><sentence id="1764">It was after the army, and he was 16 years older than me, but I didn't know it at that time. </sentence><sentence id="1765">If I knew I would get scared. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1789">Q: He was in the Polish army? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1791">A: After the war, he was in the Russian army and then he went into the Polish army. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1793">Q: He was Jewish? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1795">A: Yes. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1796"> "deg United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1797">Q: So, you left your father and brother in <span class="populated place">Lodz</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1798">A: No, my father went to <span class="country">Germany</span> before. </sentence><sentence id="1799">My father went to <span class="country">Germany</span> and he said that, "You're going to come after." </sentence><sentence id="1800">So, we went after. </sentence><sentence id="1801">We didn't come to the same place. </sentence><sentence id="1802">My father was in <span class="populated place">Ulm</span>, and I was in <span class="populated place">Hess-Lichtenau</span>, near <span class="populated place">Kassel</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1808">Q: But you traveled from <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> to <span class="populated place">Lodz</span> with your father? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1810">A: No. </sentence><sentence id="1811">I traveled -- yes, from <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> to <span class="populated place">Lodz</span> with my father and brother, yes. </sentence><sentence id="1812">Then when we met we didn't separate anymore but then I separated when I got married and my father went before me to <span class="country">Germany</span> and then we came to our organization, through a Zionist organization we came to <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1813">He was like in the army, the Zionist organization from the army we came to <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1818">Q: Were you living freely all this time or did you ever live in a <span class="populated place">camp</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1820">A: In a <span class="populated place">camp</span>, I was in an <span class="populated place">UNRRA camp</span> in <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1822">Q: For how long? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1824">A: How long? </sentence><sentence id="1825">Until I came to <span class="country">Canada</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1826">We came to <span class="country">Germany</span> in 1947. </sentence><sentence id="1827">We came to <span class="country">Canada</span> in "48 so it was about a year and a half I think. </sentence><sentence id="1828">I had my baby in "47, my son is born in 1947 in <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1834">Q: Until that you were living freely, until you got to <span class="country">Germany</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1836">A: In the <span class="populated place">camp</span>, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1838">Q: But in <span class="country">Poland</span> you were not in a <span class="populated place">camp</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1840">A: No, we were in a <span class="building">house</span> living there. </sentence><sentence id="1841">Also <span class="building">Jewish houses</span> that the Jewish people used to live. </sentence><sentence id="1842">I remember the address. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1846">Q: After the war, your new husband was part of the Polish army? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1848">A: They took him I don't know how it happened but they took him to the Polish army. </sentence><sentence id="1849">He was in the Russian army and then they took him to the Polish army. </sentence><sentence id="1850">I don't know how, because he was Russian at the time from the war. </sentence><sentence id="1851">So, they took him in <span class="country">Russia</span> to the army and then they took him to the Polish army. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1856">Q: Was it at all difficult getting over to <span class="country">Canada</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1857">A: It was difficult, yes. </sentence><sentence id="1858">It was very difficult. </sentence><sentence id="1859">We thought because with a baby we wouldn't be able to -- they wouldn't let us come. </sentence><sentence id="1860">My baby was very sick and we came to a place </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1865"> before, I forgot the name of the place in <span class="country">Germany</span> before we came to <span class="country">Canada</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1866">We were living all people together in one place. </sentence><sentence id="1867">The people that were supposed to go to <span class="country">Canada</span>, and my son got sick and his stomach was loose all the time, all the time. </sentence><sentence id="1868">One time I dreamt my husband's father, which I never knew in my life, when I described to my husband he told me that he looked like that, and I dreamed that he gave me a jar of fish and he told me, "Give that to your child a little bit. </sentence><sentence id="1869">Then you're going to talk about me, so long live my child," because his name is after him, Jack, you know his name is Jack, Jankel in Jewish. </sentence><sentence id="1870">All of a sudden on the day after a doctor an American doctor came in. </sentence><sentence id="1871">I couldn't speak English at all. </sentence><sentence id="1872">So, I showed him that the diapers that he goes every minute, so he gave him medication and that doctor helped him. </sentence><sentence id="1873">I thought the child was going to die, because he was screaming nights. </sentence><sentence id="1874">Everybody was mad at me because the child was screaming, and I was so young at that time. </sentence><sentence id="1875">So, he gave him a medication. </sentence><sentence id="1876">After that dream, all of sudden the child got well and we came to <span class="country">Canada</span> after that. </sentence><sentence id="1877">We came to <span class="country">Canada</span> in 1948, November the 16. </sentence><sentence id="1878">I don't remember the liberation day, but I remember when I came to <span class="country">Canada</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1893">Q: Was the adjustment in <span class="country">Canada</span> at all difficult for you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1895">A: It was very difficult. </sentence><sentence id="1896">It was difficult because we didn't have anything. </sentence><sentence id="1897">We came and didn't even have a dollar in my pocket. </sentence><sentence id="1898">I didn't know how it looked, a dollar. </sentence><sentence id="1899">My father had family in the <span class="country">United States</span>, in <span class="populated place">Troy</span>, <span class="populated place">New York</span>, so they sent us the first 50 dollars. </sentence><sentence id="1900">I didn't even know how American money looked like. </sentence><sentence id="1901">I didn't know what to do with that 50 dollars. </sentence><sentence id="1902">Then my husband couldn't find a job, and when he found a job they paid him 35 dollars, and 35 dollars -- 39 dollars a week and I had a <span class="interior space">room</span> and I had to pay 35 dollars a month for the <span class="interior space">room</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1903">Then we got -- my aunt came and they gave us 700 dollars so I paid key money, 700 dollars to move into an <span class="interior space">apartment</span> in <span class="populated place">Montreal</span> just for a broken <span class="spatial object">stove</span> and not a <span class="spatial object">refrigerator</span>, an <span class="spatial object">icebox</span>, and a little <span class="spatial object">table</span> and <span class="spatial object">chairs</span>, I paid 700 dollars key money. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1904">We could have bought a <span class="building">house</span> at that time. </sentence><sentence id="1905">The money that she gave me, I was happy to move into a <span class="building">house</span> because we lived in a <span class="interior space">room</span>, don't stay here and don't make electricity and you're burning too much that. </sentence><sentence id="1906">Then she made me wash the <span class="dlf">walls</span> -- her <span class="dlf">walls</span>, like I didn't understand. </sentence><sentence id="1907">I thought that was the way it had to be. </sentence><sentence id="1908">No matter how tough I was when I had to be, I was very different then. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1909"> I let myself be used by a woman. </sentence><sentence id="1910">They couldn't understand. </sentence><sentence id="1911">What do I have to do for them. </sentence><sentence id="1912">Let them do a little bit for me. </sentence><sentence id="1913">We were very much used by these people. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1914">Q: So, when you got to <span class="country">Canada</span> people took advantage of you? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1915">A: A lot of advantage. </sentence><sentence id="1916">They took for a <span class="spatial object">stove</span>, for Jewish people, a broken <span class="spatial object">stove</span> with a little <span class="spatial object">table</span>, 700 dollars from us and we didn't have nothing. </sentence><sentence id="1917">We came with nothing. </sentence><sentence id="1918">Absolutely with nothing and we struggled. </sentence><sentence id="1919">All our lives, it was very hard. </sentence><sentence id="1920">He wasn't a business man, he was a tailor and he worked very hard for his money and it was a hard life. </sentence><sentence id="1921">We had a very hard life. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1929">Q: It must have gotten easier? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1931">A: I think now it's easier a little bit, but we're getting older. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1933">Q: Perhaps you felt that after everything you had been through, at least you were safe? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1935">A: Yes, we live in a free <span class="country">country</span>, and I don't think that born American people or born Canadian people they know what it means freedom. </sentence><sentence id="1936">Freedom means all the money in the whole world can't buy that. </sentence><sentence id="1937">Nothing. </sentence><sentence id="1938">That's the most important thing. </sentence><sentence id="1939">Not money, not anything but health and freedom. </sentence><sentence id="1940">The only thing I felt, I'm free and I can do whatever I want to do, even if I don't have nothing but I have my freedom. </sentence><sentence id="1941">I could go wherever what I want to go. </sentence><sentence id="1942">I could do what I want to do and I appreciated it very much. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1951">Q: All those years that you were hiding, fighting, running, did you ever want to just give up? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1953">A: No, never. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1955">Q: Why? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1957">A: I felt I had to take revenge one day for everything that has happened, for all these people that I saw my friends that I loved them so much. </sentence><sentence id="1958">I went to <span class="building">school</span> with them together, get killed. </sentence><sentence id="1959">I saw them shot, falling down on the <span class="interior space">floor</span>, and it started in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1960">I saw them lying dead. </sentence><sentence id="1961">I said no. </sentence><sentence id="1962">I have to live and take revenge, and you know what, right now I don't feel like I want revenge. </sentence><sentence id="1963">I just want one thing. </sentence><sentence id="1964">I don't want this thing to happen again to our people, to any people. </sentence><sentence id="1965">But I don't want revenge anymore. </sentence><sentence id="1966">At that time, I just felt that I have to take revenge and I have to live just for that. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1977">Q: When you were liberated did you still want revenge? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1979">A: Yes, yes. </sentence><sentence id="1980">I wanted to revenge, I wanted to revenge from these Polish people that took away everything from us that they were worse than the Germans. </sentence><sentence id="1981">I wanted revenge. </sentence><sentence id="1982">I think I lived for it, just to get revenge. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1987">Q: Did you ever get revenge? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1989">A: I don't think so. </sentence><sentence id="1990">The only revenge I have that -- I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="1991">I don't think I had any. </sentence><sentence id="1992">I felt --after I didn't feel that. </sentence><sentence id="1993">The only thing I had revenge is when I saw our <span class="country">country</span> that we have a <span class="country">country</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1994">That we are people just like anybody else, and <span class="country">Israel</span> was like in 1947, 1946, when I saw that we have a <span class="country">country</span> I said, "Now I have everything that I ever fought for, that we're going to have a <span class="country">country</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1995">We're going to be able to be just like anybody else. </sentence><sentence id="1996">Even to be respected in other <span class="country">countries</span>, we need our <span class="country">country</span>, and I love that <span class="country">country</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1997">I think that was my revenge, that I knew we were fighting for something. </sentence><sentence id="1998">Even I didn't fight for <span class="country">Israel</span> I fought for something that I lived to see, and it's important to me. </sentence><sentence id="1999">I think it should be important to all of us that <span class="country">country</span> we have. </sentence><sentence id="2000">It's the dearest thing that I feel we have, especially now that we're getting peace, and it's going to be peace there, I hope so. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2013">Q: Was there some reason why you didn't immigrate to <span class="country">Israel</span> instead of <span class="country">Canada</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2015">A: I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="2016">We wanted to go to <span class="country">Israel</span>, but it came out like that, like we stayed in a place to get some milk for the baby and all of a sudden they arranged it for <span class="country">Canada</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2017">It just happened, it just happened but I really wanted to go to <span class="country">Israel</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2018">I didn't think of <span class="country">Canada</span> at all. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2023">Q: Is there anything else you want to add that you think we need to know that you need to remember that I haven't asked you about? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2025">A: I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="2026">If you ask me I can remember. </sentence><sentence id="2027">I don't even know what I want to add because it's very hard for me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2031">Q: Let me just ask you, prior to the Germans entering <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span>, did you all have any idea what was happening at all? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2033">A: No, no we didn't. </sentence><sentence id="2034">The religious Jews in <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span>, the rabbis, they said that in <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span> one rabbi died and he said there's not going to be any blood shedding in <span class="populated place">Lakhva</span>, never. </sentence><sentence id="2035">It's not going to be. </sentence><sentence id="2036">We shouldn't fight with the Germans. </sentence><sentence id="2037">We shouldn't fight and no matter what happens we have to stay put. </sentence><sentence id="2038">But the Zionist people didn't think like that. </sentence><sentence id="2039">They didn't believe in that, what the rabbi said. </sentence><sentence id="2040">And they didn't listen to the rabbis. </sentence><sentence id="2041">If they would have listened to the rabbis all these Lakhva people -- a few people are alive. </sentence><sentence id="2042">From the old <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> there were a few thousand people that maybe a hundred people are alive, maybe. </sentence><sentence id="2043">I'm not even sure of that, so it wouldn't even be these people alive, if they would have listened to the rabbis. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2055">Q: Did the Zionists have more information? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2056">A: No, they didn't have information, they had guts. </sentence><sentence id="2057">They said, "If somebody fights me, I'm not going to put one cheek and let the other one. </sentence><sentence id="2058">I'm not going to let it happen. </sentence><sentence id="2059">We have to fight back." </sentence><sentence id="2060">And they said it to the rabbis and the rabbis were screaming, "No, don't fight." </sentence><sentence id="2061">So, they didn't listen. </sentence><sentence id="2062">They just said that we have to fight. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2063">Q: Did anybody know what was going on in <span class="country">Europe</span> at the time? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2065">A: Nobody, not the small people. </sentence><sentence id="2066">Maybe the big people knew it, but not the small people, not the ordinary people. </sentence><sentence id="2067">Nobody knew, nobody. </sentence><sentence id="2068">They only knew these people when they fought back, they knew that, "If somebody gives me, if somebody is going to shoot me, I'm not going to let myself. </sentence><sentence id="2069">It's not going to happen, because I'm going to fight back, even if I don't have ammunition, I'm going to take eggs, I'm going knives. </sentence><sentence id="2070">I'm going to take everything I have with everything I could even I'm going to die just the same, but I'm not going to let myself get killed just like that without a fight." </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2077">Q: Why do you think so few <span class="populated place">communities</span> fought back? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2079">A: I don't know because there was nobody organized it. </sentence><sentence id="2080">They had to have somebody organize these things. </sentence><sentence id="2081">If they would have had somebody who organized these things, I think people were afraid and they didn't think. </sentence><sentence id="2082">They just went like sheep. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2087">Q: Do you think any of this could have been avoided? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2089">A: It couldn't have been avoided, but they could have fought back. </sentence><sentence id="2090">They could have prepared themselves if they would know it. </sentence><sentence id="2091">I think people should have prepared themselves. </sentence><sentence id="2092">Like I was little, and I was happy when I saw that mensch". </sentence><sentence id="2093">I was there, saw it, when they were giving the German with an ax. </sentence><sentence id="2094">I felt so good inside and when they asked the doctor to help them. </sentence><sentence id="2095">They're going to kill my brothers and my sisters and everybody and you're telling me you're going to keep my family safe if I'm going to save you? </sentence><sentence id="2096">No, I'm not saving anybody. </sentence><sentence id="2097">You could kill me too, so they shot the doctor too. </sentence><sentence id="2098">It means that some people had guts. </sentence><sentence id="2099">They didn't just want to give up. </sentence><sentence id="2100">If they're going to throw away their lives at least they're going to do it for something. </sentence><sentence id="2101">They're going to go with a reason, with a fight. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2115">Q: It's just hard to understand why some <span class="populated place">communities</span> were much, much stronger this way than others? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2117">A: I think because they had somebody like <span class="populated place">Rochezyn</span> there. </sentence><sentence id="2118">If they would have more like these, like now in <span class="country">Israel</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2119">How has <span class="country">Israel</span> survived? </sentence><sentence id="2120">Because there were these people, they were there. </sentence><sentence id="2121">That's why. </sentence><sentence id="2122">These were part of these people. </sentence><sentence id="2123">They learned to be like that. </sentence><sentence id="2124">u person (Yiddish); a decent person, someone of noble character. </sentence><sentence id="2125"> They learned not to give up without a fight and we never have to give up without a fight if we have to survive. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2135">Q: So strong leadership? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2137">A: That's right. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2139">Q: Anything else when you look back at this time in your life. </sentence><sentence id="2140">What do you think about? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2143">A: When I look back, I wish I could have said to everybody in all these <span class="populated place">ghettos</span>, "Don't let yourself just go like sheep to the <span class="dlf">grave</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2144">Fight back. </sentence><sentence id="2145">Don't let yourself, don't go to the <span class="dlf">graves</span> just like that. </sentence><sentence id="2146">If you go to the <span class="dlf">grave</span> let it be written -- let it be said that you were fighting and you didn't give up, but you were fighting for something that you believed that, you have to fight, not to go like a sheep but to go like a person, like a human being, to fight back." </sentence><sentence id="2147">I believe it now, too. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2153">Q: Thank you. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2155">A: I never give up even now, no matter hard you know. </sentence><sentence id="2156">We had hard times. </sentence><sentence id="2157">Like now, I married my husband. </sentence><sentence id="2158">He was very sick. </sentence><sentence id="2159">He was twice in a <span class="building">hospital</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2160">He had surgery after I married him. </sentence><sentence id="2161">He had a surgery by-pass and then five times since we live in a <span class="building">house</span> now. </sentence><sentence id="2162">One year he was five times with infections. </sentence><sentence id="2163">He went through a lot, so I never gave up. </sentence><sentence id="2164">I never said "he's going to die," and I was sitting and talking to him and I said, "You're not going to die. </sentence><sentence id="2165">You'll see. </sentence><sentence id="2166">You're going to pull through it because you have to. </sentence><sentence id="2167">You have to. </sentence><sentence id="2168">You have to." </sentence><sentence id="2169">I was saying to myself, "No he's not going to die. </sentence><sentence id="2170">It's not going to happen to him because we're going to fight and we're going to survive." </sentence><sentence id="2171">It's just like anything else. </sentence><sentence id="2172">I'm a fighter now too. </sentence><sentence id="2173">I always believe when I go to sleep at night it's like a nice letter that's going to come. </sentence><sentence id="2174">I live day by day like that like it's going to come a letter tomorrow, something good is going to happen. </sentence><sentence id="2175">Like I'm waiting for the next day, every single day in my life I'm waiting for something good to happen. </sentence><sentence id="2176">Even if it's not going to happen, I still believe that it will happen. </sentence><sentence id="2177">I never believe that it's going to be an ordinary day. </sentence><sentence id="2178">I believe that it's going to be the most beautiful day tomorrow. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2203">Q: Is that the way you felt when you were in hiding? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2205">A: I always felt like that. </sentence><sentence id="2206">I think I was born like that. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2209">Q: Just tell me briefly, how did you meet Joseph, your current husband? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2211">A: I knew him a long time because -- I met my current husband a long time ago but I didn't know him, but a few years ago, when he moved in with his wife -- I used to live on the <span class="interior space">fourth floor</span> and he moved into my <span class="interior space">apartment</span> on the <span class="interior space">third floor</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2212">He moved in with his wife and his wife had Alzheimer. </sentence><sentence id="2213">She was very sick. </sentence><sentence id="2214">I saw them and I knew them and I said -- I opened the <span class="dlf">door</span> and I let him in --I said, "These are two old people I'm going to let them in, let the <span class="dlf">door</span> open. </sentence><sentence id="2215">They're carrying <span class="spatial object">parcels</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2216">They moved into that <span class="interior space">apartment</span>." </sentence><sentence id="2217">Then I heard from far his wife said, "That's <span class="populated place">Zina</span>." </sentence><sentence id="2218">I said, "That's Icek?" </sentence><sentence id="2219">And I call him Icek, because his name is Icek and not Joseph. </sentence><sentence id="2220">I said, "My God, he looks so old and that man is not so old." </sentence><sentence id="2221">He was about 63 years old at that time. </sentence><sentence id="2222">I said, "My God, what has happened to them?" </sentence><sentence id="2223">At that time, his sister in law came -- and | used to go a few times to his <span class="building">house</span> to have coffee there with his wife too. </sentence><sentence id="2224">His wife didn't know nothing because she was very sick, Alzheimer. </sentence><sentence id="2225">She was still a young woman because she died at 63 years old. </sentence><sentence id="2226">So, I came up to the <span class="building">house</span> and I was -- I saw -- when his wife died, his sister-in-law came and she stayed by me <span class="interior space">upstairs</span>, instead of staying in a <span class="building">hotel</span>, I gave her my <span class="interior space">apartment</span> because my husband was dead already. </sentence><sentence id="2227">She says, "You know what, you two are so good for each other, you're going to marry him." </sentence><sentence id="2228">And I didn't even think about it because first of all, his wife just died. </sentence><sentence id="2229">I'm going to think that I'm going to marry him? </sentence><sentence id="2230">I said, "You're crazy. </sentence><sentence id="2231">Anja (ph), why are you talking like that?" </sentence><sentence id="2232">That was Erwin's wife, and I knew Erwin since 1951, very well. </sentence><sentence id="2233">I said, "You're crazy, don't talk like that." </sentence><sentence id="2234">But every single day that his wife died, I started asking him to go for a walk because he was very depressed and he was talking about his wife all the time and we were going and walking a lot, and talking. </sentence><sentence id="2235">Then, I fell in love with him after, and the same thing happened to him I think. </sentence><sentence id="2236">So, I never believed that in that age I'm going to fall in love with somebody, because I think I love him more than my life because after that he was so sick a few times he was in the <span class="building">hospital</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2237">Quite a few times, and I stood by him and I always gave him faith. </sentence><sentence id="2238">When he was in the <span class="building">hospital</span> with a by-pass and this is the second one, because 15 years ago he had one <span class="dlf">bypass</span> and this was the second one. </sentence><sentence id="2239">He thought he was not going to live because the doctor told him that that by-pass is not going to be able to make a by-pass. </sentence><sentence id="2240">I told him, "Don't believe the doctor what he says. </sentence><sentence id="2241">I heard many doctors. </sentence><sentence id="2242">They talk to the patient and they die before the patient dies, so don't listen. </sentence><sentence id="2243">You'll see that you're going to be alive and you're going to be able to have the operation." </sentence><sentence id="2244">A few days later he came and he says, "You know, what we're going to try to operate." </sentence><sentence id="2245">He was so happy, just like he was going to go to dance, and I said to him like that, "Before you go to the operation, have faith, believe that you're going to live and after you're going to see we're going to buy the most beautiful things for the <span class="building">house</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2246">You're going to sell all the old junks you have and we're going to buy the nicest things. </sentence><sentence id="2247">You're going to see you're going to have the most beautiful life. </sentence><sentence id="2248">Just believe it." </sentence><sentence id="2249">He was six weeks in the <span class="interior space">intensive care</span> and I was sitting every single day and talking like that. " </sentence><sentence id="2250">Just believe it, you'll see, you're going to have a good life." </sentence><sentence id="2251">Just like I thought in the time of the war. </sentence><sentence id="2252">I didn't think I was going to live but I still didn't want to believe it because I think I'm a survivor. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2295">Q: Thank you. </sentence><sentence id="2296"> </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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