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layout: transcript |
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interviewee: david none bergman |
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rg_number: rg-50.030.0020 |
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pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0020_trs_en.pdf |
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ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504449 |
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gender: m |
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birth_date: 1931-05-03 |
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birth_year: 1931.0 |
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place_of_birth: beckov |
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country: czechoslovakia |
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experience_group: survivor |
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ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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ghetto: none |
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camp(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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camp: none |
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non_ss_camp: none |
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region: none |
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needs_research: none |
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data_entry: gg |
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accession: 1990.430.1 |
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revisit: none |
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tags: transcripts |
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<body><dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1">DAVID BERGMAN July 18, 1990 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3">Q: David, we are going to start. </sentence><sentence id="4">And I would like for you to give us your full name, where you were born and when you were born. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="7">A: My name is David Bergman, spelled B-E-R-G-M-A-N. And I was born in a small <span class="populated place">town</span> in the <span class="env feature">Carpathian Mountains</span> called <span class="populated place">Bochov</span>." </sentence><sentence id="8">It... at that time when I was born, it belonged to <span class="country">Czechoslovakia</span>. </sentence><sentence id="9">Was a province of <span class="country">Czechoslovakia</span>. </sentence><sentence id="10">And I was born on May 3rd, 1931. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="15">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="16">Can you give us some of your recollections of your early childhood? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="19">A: Well, the early childhood was a very happy life for me and my family. </sentence><sentence id="20">I had a younger brother, older sister, mother, father, grandparents; and we were very close knit family. </sentence><sentence id="21">My father was a tailor. </sentence><sentence id="22">And uh...he made suits for people coming from other <span class="country">countries</span>. </sentence><sentence id="23">We had one of the biggest <span class="building">tailor shops</span> in our <span class="populated place">town</span>. </sentence><sentence id="24">And my mother, who was a seamstress, made the shirts. </sentence><sentence id="25">And I was just busy running around having a good time. </sentence><sentence id="26">And that we had uh what's considered here...it's a beautiful <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="27">We had...uh we didn't, I should say, have the comforts like in <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="28">We didn't have running water. </sentence><sentence id="29">We didn't have...uh central heating. </sentence><sentence id="30">We had <span class="spatial object">stove</span> from heating, for heating; and uh for the <span class="env feature">water</span>, we had a <span class="dlf">well</span>. </sentence><sentence id="31">And the <span class="building">outhouse</span> was in the back of the <span class="building">house</span> several hundred feet. </sentence><sentence id="32">So I...where I lived, I considered that normal.(Laughing) I didn't think that you're supposed to have these kind of conveniences. </sentence><sentence id="33">So we didn't uh...uh think that there should be any other way. </sentence><sentence id="34">And uh...my...uh I went both to <span class="building">cheder</span> and <span class="building">public school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="35">Now uh actually when I started <span class="building">school</span> was really...is when the first uh--say in "39--the first sensing of the beginning of what anti-Semitism is really like. </sentence><sentence id="36">And I remember, it was on a Saturday once. </sentence><sentence id="37">And that's after the Hungarians marched in. </sentence><sentence id="38">The Hungarians, until 1939 that <span class="region">province</span> was under <span class="country">Czechoslovakia</span> rule. </sentence><sentence id="39">And we had a Czech officer. </sentence><sentence id="40">We had a <span class="building">two-family home</span>; he lived on the lower <span class="interior space">flat</span>. </sentence><sentence id="41">And all of a sudden, he disappeared just like that. </sentence><sentence id="42">Just like over night. </sentence><sentence id="43">And the Hungarians just marched in. </sentence><sentence id="44">And we were forced to...uh pledge allegiance to the new Hungarian regime. </sentence><sentence id="45">And as soon as they walked in, within a few days...I happened to be on a Saturday at my grandfather's place; and he had a eruv. </sentence><sentence id="46">I don't know if you know; a <span class="dlf">eruv</span> is a <span class="dlf">guide wire</span> that sets a <span class="dlf">perimeter</span> as far as we can walk on the Sabbath. </sentence><sentence id="47">And the first thing they did is, they came with a <span class="spatial object">truck</span> and ripped off that <span class="dlf">wire</span>. </sentence><sentence id="48">So that was the first harassment that I actually seen by the Hungarian Nazis--showing their muscles, really, what they can do. </sentence><sentence id="49">And then afterwards, we were told that we could no longer go into " Czech: <span class="populated place">Veliky-Bo_kov</span>, or Russ: <span class="populated place">Velikiye-Bychkov</span>. </sentence><sentence id="50">Located in the <span class="region">Transcarpathian Oblast</span> of <span class="country">Ukraine</span>. </sentence><sentence id="51"> <span class="spatial object">cheder</span>, legally. </sentence><sentence id="52">That was forbidden. </sentence><sentence id="53">So we had to go illegally. </sentence><sentence id="54">And then we would have a look out for the police. </sentence><sentence id="55">So we'd take turns. </sentence><sentence id="56">Whenever the police came, they always were in pair. </sentence><sentence id="57">They had their green hats and a little feather on their head like, so they were recognizable from a distance. </sentence><sentence id="58">So as soon as they...we saw them coming, we get a signal-- "Disperse!" </sentence><sentence id="59">And we would run; and "til it was all clear. </sentence><sentence id="60">And then we would resume again. </sentence><sentence id="61">And we sort of accepted that that's a way of life. </sentence><sentence id="62">We didn't question the parents who they were, why they're doing it. </sentence><sentence id="63">That's the way it is. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="113">Q: This was in 1939? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="115">A: Right. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="117">Q: And then what do you remember immediately after that? </sentence><sentence id="118">Let's say in the..."40, early "40s. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="121">A: Well, then afterwards it started to...for...tightened, I guess use the word "tighten" the <span class="spatial object">noose</span> more. </sentence><sentence id="122">They next step they did is, they took the licenses away of people--professional--of practicing their business. </sentence><sentence id="123">Like I had a cousin who was a dentist, and he was not allowed to practice dentistry anymore. </sentence><sentence id="124">We were supposed... We were forced to go secretly. </sentence><sentence id="125">So that if I went to a dentist and I had work some done and my teeth were bleeding...gums were bleeding, then I had to wait--make sure that the bleeding stopped--before I would leave. </sentence><sentence id="126">Because if they would have caught me, seeing uh that I had dental care through a Jewish dentist, then they would have punished him and me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="133">Q: How big a <span class="populated place">Jewish community</span> did you have there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="135">A: There were about 3,000 Jewish in that...and then about 7,000 Christians in that <span class="region">area</span> there. </sentence><sentence id="136">My father was allowed to keep the <span class="building">store</span>, because for some reason that I can't remember--I was about 10 or 11 at the time--is because we had Czech citizenship. </sentence><sentence id="137">So they allowed those with Czech citizenship to keep the <span class="building">businesses</span>. </sentence><sentence id="138">But those of Hungarian, they took away. </sentence><sentence id="139">Why? </sentence><sentence id="140">L..I..[ wasn't old enough there to understand. </sentence><sentence id="141">In fact, we were really such...lived in such an isolated <span class="region">area</span> that the news would come from a drummer. </sentence><sentence id="142">We have a drummer coming like old time and beating on the <span class="dlf">door</span>; and we would all run out toward the <span class="dlf">square</span>. </sentence><sentence id="143">And then he would take out a piece of paper, and that's how we got our news. </sentence><sentence id="144">So we never really realized that anything can happen. </sentence><sentence id="145">I heard things--events--happening, but I could not relate to what was going around the world at that time. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="157">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="158">So then what happen subsequently? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="159">A: Well, afterwards...then my father was drafted into the Hungarian Army. </sentence><sentence id="160">And this was a very, very dramatic experience for us, having him away, because we were so close knit. </sentence><sentence id="161">And then he was uh gone for a year. </sentence><sentence id="162">And then they gave him a furlough. </sentence><sentence id="163">And while he was gone, because I was the oldest in the family I was considered man of the <span class="building">house</span>. </sentence><sentence id="164">Uh, This was about 11. </sentence><sentence id="165">I had to go on night guard with an older person. </sentence><sentence id="166">And they gave us a stick in the hand. </sentence><sentence id="167">I had no idea what this was all about, but we had to walk around the <span class="dlf">perimeter</span> to looking in case some saboteurs would come. </sentence><sentence id="168">Uh, and uh I...I still wonder why should they take somebody my age. </sentence><sentence id="169">I had no idea. </sentence><sentence id="170">If somebody wanted to be a saboteur, do something, I'd run the other way. </sentence><sentence id="171">But you learned not to question. </sentence><sentence id="172">It was a sense...you sense that they have the power, and you have to obey and you have to do it. </sentence><sentence id="173">And then...uh later on, we continued...uh a life. </sentence><sentence id="174">We missed our father very much, and continued going secretly to <span class="building">cheder</span>. </sentence><sentence id="175">And then we saw deportations begin. </sentence><sentence id="176">They...they uh ...took certain people--let's say the Hungarian nationality--first. </sentence><sentence id="177">And I had no idea what was going on. </sentence><sentence id="178">My parents never really talked to me about what was going on. </sentence><sentence id="179">And all I saw is people marching away towards the <span class="building">train station</span>. </sentence><sentence id="180">And this was yet "42, in that time. </sentence><sentence id="181">And uh...some reason, I think people really didn't talk about it. </sentence><sentence id="182">It was like a fear, or they didn't want to talk about it. </sentence><sentence id="183">And I had no idea what was going on, and just accepted as it was. </sentence><sentence id="184">And then, they announced that our turn was going to come. </sentence><sentence id="185">And my father, being in the military, was given the choice. </sentence><sentence id="186">He could either stay in the army and save himself, or come <span class="building">home</span> and be deported with us. </sentence><sentence id="187">So he chose to come <span class="building">home</span> with us. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="188">Q: OK. </sentence><sentence id="189">How old were you at that time? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="192">A: Twelve years old. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="194">Q: So you were 12 years old. </sentence><sentence id="195">Okay. </sentence><sentence id="196">So your father came <span class="building">home</span> then, and uh he decided he was going to go with you. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="200">A: Yah. </sentence><sentence id="201">I don't think he had any idea where we're being taken; because we were told that we are being taken to some <span class="populated place">city</span> in <span class="country">Hungary</span>, to...for him to work as a tailor. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="204">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="205">And then what happened? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="208">A: Well, the first inkling of what happened is, I recall it was in a Passover in "44. </sentence><sentence id="209">And it was a Pesach night; and we ...all of a sudden, we heard the knock on the <span class="dlf">door</span>. </sentence><sentence id="210">And we were all frightened who it is, because we had the shutters down. </sentence><sentence id="211">And here was somebody talking with a German accent. </sentence><sentence id="212">And it was the German soldiers knocking on the <span class="dlf">door</span>. </sentence><sentence id="213">They were not the Nazis. </sentence><sentence id="214">They were the German soldiers retreating. </sentence><sentence id="215">And the strange thing was...about the whole thing is, that they come in... They were very polite in the beginning. </sentence><sentence id="216">They asked if they could stay, because our <span class="interior space">downstairs</span> was vacant since the Czech officer had left. </sentence><sentence id="217">And they even offered to pay. </sentence><sentence id="218">And they put on a picture that "Hey, we're not as bad." </sentence><sentence id="219">And now I see why. </sentence><sentence id="220">They wanted to have confidence. </sentence><sentence id="221">They even put on some acrobatic things for the people, to show that they have come within...for good will. </sentence><sentence id="222">But once they got the confidence of the people, then they showed their true color. </sentence><sentence id="223">They came with guns afterwards. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="240">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="241">David, was this in "43 or "44? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="244">A: "44. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="246">Q: This was in "44. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="248">A: "44. </sentence><sentence id="249">And then, we...we were notified that we were going to be deported. </sentence><sentence id="250">And there was uh...Just been accepting for us; because we were very Orthodox, and this was the will of God. </sentence><sentence id="251">And uh...(Excuse me) God will protect us and God will shield us from them, and just put our faith in him. </sentence><sentence id="252">And uh...when it came to our turn, we were only allowed to carry in our possession with us what we could carry. </sentence><sentence id="253">And we got a...like a flat <span class="spatial object">bed</span>, a horse and <span class="spatial object">buggy</span> that we put our belongings, only what we could carry. </sentence><sentence id="254">And I can still remember that sight. </sentence><sentence id="255">This is in 1944. </sentence><sentence id="256">And after we loaded everything up and I looked at the <span class="building">house</span>... And here, what the Hungarian Nazi's did, had the chutzpah to do on top of it--what they...what you call "insult to injury"--is that they gave my a father a signed document, right in front of him. </sentence><sentence id="257">They even put a seal on the <span class="dlf">door</span>. </sentence><sentence id="258">Stating that when we come back the <span class="building">house</span> will belong to us, that nobody else will take it over. </sentence><sentence id="259">And yet, when I look back, within me I had the feeling that it's never going to be the same again. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="273">Q: So you loaded your...your... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="275">A: Personal belongings. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="277">Q: ...personal belongings on a <span class="spatial object">cart</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="279">A: <span class="spatial object">Cart</span>. </sentence><sentence id="280">Yah, a <span class="spatial object">wooden cart</span> with a horse and <span class="spatial object">buggy</span>. </sentence><sentence id="281">It had a couple of wheels. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="285">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="286">And then what happened after that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="289">A: After that, they uh marched us to a <span class="building">synagogue</span>. </sentence><sentence id="290">And the <span class="building">synagogue</span> was like an assembly point, where what they would do is they would bring enough people until there was enough for a <span class="spatial object">train</span> load. </sentence><sentence id="291">And, for us, this was like electric shock. </sentence><sentence id="292">Whenever we heard a <span class="spatial object">train</span> before, in...in 1942 and 1943, when they began... Uh, because we knew that the <span class="spatial object">trains</span> are coming to pick up more people, take them away. </sentence><sentence id="293">So we already knew that going to the <span class="spatial object">trains</span>. </sentence><sentence id="294">We didn't know what's going to happen. </sentence><sentence id="295">But soon as we got into the <span class="building">synagogue</span> and we were there, it is like being thrown into a <span class="spatial object">cage</span>. </sentence><sentence id="296">All of a sudden, they show their viciousness. </sentence><sentence id="297">Saw a couple of people passed out, and they beat them up; and we tried to help, and they wouldn't let and wouldn't offer any help. </sentence><sentence id="298">So we already sensed that something bad is going to happen. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="309">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="310">So you were in the <span class="building">synagogue</span> there. </sentence><sentence id="311">What happened after that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="315">A: Well, after that we stayed there a couple of days. </sentence><sentence id="316">Then the <span class="spatial object">train</span> arrived; and then we were put onto a <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="317">It was still a <span class="spatial object">passenger train</span>, instead of a <span class="spatial object">cattle train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="318">And uh...from there, I found they took us to a <span class="populated place">ghetto</span> in <span class="country">Hungary</span> called <span class="populated place">Mateszalka</span>. </sentence><sentence id="319"><span class="populated place">Mateszalka</span> was sort of a central point where they brought all the victims from all of the <span class="populated place">shtetlach</span> around in that <span class="region">area</span>. </sentence><sentence id="320">And it's...,just like they brought us to the <span class="building">train station</span> from one <span class="populated place">shtetlach</span>, that <span class="populated place">camp</span> was sort of a <span class="building">shul</span> for all of the surrounding <span class="region">areas</span>. </sentence><sentence id="321">So when they had enough people in there for a large...or whenever a <span class="spatial object">transport</span> was available, then that's where uh was the assembling point. </sentence><sentence id="322">And that was...uh we lived in <span class="building">tents</span> over there. </sentence><sentence id="323">And uh we...uh we didn't know what's happening. </sentence><sentence id="324">Nobody said anything to anybody: where we're going, what's going to happen, where are we heading. </sentence><sentence id="325">We knew we're waiting for something. </sentence><sentence id="326">For a <span class="spatial object">train</span> to take us someplace else. </sentence><sentence id="327">It was not the place where we knew that we were going to stay. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="341">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="342">So then the <span class="spatial object">train</span> finally arrived? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="345">A: The <span class="spatial object">train</span> arrived. </sentence><sentence id="346">It was several weeks. </sentence><sentence id="347">Four, five weeks. </sentence><sentence id="348">I can't recall the exact. </sentence><sentence id="349">And then, we still believed that we were being taken to a <span class="populated place">city</span> in <span class="country">Hungary</span>. </sentence><sentence id="350">And this time, instead of a <span class="spatial object">passenger train</span>, there was a <span class="spatial object">cattle train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="351">And they put us in, packed us very tight. </sentence><sentence id="352">And there was hardly <span class="interior space">room</span> to move. </sentence><sentence id="353">And the whole family there--my grandparents--they were still together. </sentence><sentence id="354">And when they locked the <span class="dlf">door</span>, the click, and put the key on, I knew within me--I wouldn't share it--I knew we were in for something. </sentence><sentence id="355">I had no idea. </sentence><sentence id="356">And when we got on the <span class="spatial object">train</span>, we could hear the Hungarian guards talking. </sentence><sentence id="357">Even though it was totally locked, we could hear them talking. </sentence><sentence id="358">So we knew we were guarded on the <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="359">And then the <span class="spatial object">train</span> kept travelling. </sentence><sentence id="360">It was maybe a couple of days or so. </sentence><sentence id="361">And then it came to a stop. </sentence><sentence id="362">And we didn't know what it was. </sentence><sentence id="363">Then we heard talking. </sentence><sentence id="364">All of a sudden we heard Hungarian, we heard German talking. </sentence><sentence id="365">And then the Hungarian voices disappeared; and then German guards had taken over. </sentence><sentence id="366">So that put fear in us, knowing that we're not going to <span class="country">Hungary</span> anymore. </sentence><sentence id="367">That this was... And from there on in, it was the beginning. </sentence><sentence id="368">I'd say the beginning of the end, for a lot of people. ( </sentence><sentence id="369">Pause) </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="395">Q: Now once the Germans took over, what happened then? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="397">A: Then, the <span class="spatial object">train</span> continued. </sentence><sentence id="398">And I think we traveled for another two or three days. </sentence><sentence id="399">I'm not sure the exact amount of time. </sentence><sentence id="400">And I still remember, I could look through the <span class="dlf">cracks</span> in the <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="401">And I didn't know where was heading...we're heading, or where we're going. </sentence><sentence id="402">And I saw people working on damaged <span class="spatial object">planes</span>. </sentence><sentence id="403">Uh, there were <span class="spatial object">airplanes</span>. </sentence><sentence id="404">And later on, I found out that that's... <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> was part of where they repaired--<span class="spatial object">planes</span> that were damaged during the war were stripped, used for spare parts. </sentence><sentence id="405">And also I remember seeing these uh...they're sort of <span class="spatial object">balloons</span>, so that <span class="spatial object">planes</span> cannot fly too low. </sentence><sentence id="406">And I had no idea what purpose they were; but there're to prevent <span class="spatial object">planes</span> from flying very far. </sentence><sentence id="407">And later... And I saw that sight. </sentence><sentence id="408">And...and when we arrived, it was like in the morning. </sentence><sentence id="409">It was a nice day. </sentence><sentence id="410">And we were all with anticipation. </sentence><sentence id="411">Where...where are we heading? </sentence><sentence id="412">And then the <span class="spatial object">train</span> kind of kept slowing down; and the <span class="spatial object">train</span> whistle blowing, slowing down. </sentence><sentence id="413">And then we see <span class="dlf">barbed wire</span> compound there, and we see these things. </sentence><sentence id="414">And within me, wondering what is this. </sentence><sentence id="415">I had no idea. </sentence><sentence id="416">I never was in a <span class="populated place">camp</span> before. </sentence><sentence id="417">And then, all of a sudden, the <span class="spatial object">train</span> came to a stop. </sentence><sentence id="418">And they opened the <span class="dlf">doors</span>. </sentence><sentence id="419">And that was... That's was when I saw <span class="region">Hell</span>. ( </sentence><sentence id="420">Pause) </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="445">Q: That was the first real <span class="region">Hell</span> you saw. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="447">A: That was it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="449">Q: What happened there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="451">A: Well, we were forced to get out. </sentence><sentence id="452">And all of a sudden, I...1 saw Nazis beating people. </sentence><sentence id="453">I've never seen in my life like that, actually. </sentence><sentence id="454">Physically beating, dragging children away from their parents. </sentence><sentence id="455">Because in... Parents trying to go after children; and you hear shooting and yelling and crying and children... It is a sight that--I could not tell you what I ate yesterday, but I could tell you 45 years ago what...the way it was. </sentence><sentence id="456">And all of a sudden, fear took over me. </sentence><sentence id="457">What is this all about? </sentence><sentence id="458">What's happening? </sentence><sentence id="459">What are we doing here? </sentence><sentence id="460">This is not a <span class="populated place">city</span> in <span class="country">Hungary</span>. </sentence><sentence id="461">This is not what we had thought. </sentence><sentence id="462">And all a sudden--we heard orders, barking: "That <span class="dlf">line</span>! </sentence><sentence id="463">That <span class="dlf">line</span>! </sentence><sentence id="464">That <span class="dlf">line</span>!" </sentence><sentence id="465">And...nobody knew. </sentence><sentence id="466">It was just panic. </sentence><sentence id="467">Everybody ... And I found myself uh in a <span class="dlf">line</span> with other youth. </sentence><sentence id="468">And I had no idea which <span class="dlf">line</span> we were supposed to be, or what. </sentence><sentence id="469">And uh...I was looking for my father, you see; because there were all men on one side. </sentence><sentence id="470">And I ran out from the group of youth that I was in, and I ran towards the adults. </sentence><sentence id="471">And that's what actually saved my life in the beginning. </sentence><sentence id="472">And then I saw, momentarily, my mother and my brother and sister going a different <span class="dlf">line</span>. </sentence><sentence id="473">And I didn't even have a chance to say goodbye to them; this all happened so fast. </sentence><sentence id="474">And I stood in <span class="dlf">line</span> with my father. </sentence><sentence id="475">And uh...I had no idea what...what is this all about? </sentence><sentence id="476">What is this standing in <span class="dlf">line</span> for? </sentence><sentence id="477">What is this here, and telling people to go one <span class="dlf">line</span>, another <span class="dlf">line</span> and this <span class="dlf">line</span>? </sentence><sentence id="478">And then my turn came, with my father standing. </sentence><sentence id="479">It could have been Mengele. </sentence><sentence id="480">It could have been somebody else. </sentence><sentence id="481">I didn't even know who Mengele was, or anything. </sentence><sentence id="482">But it was a Nazi officer there. </sentence><sentence id="483">And uh...he uh...since I was with my father, he asked me how old I was. </sentence><sentence id="484">And my voice just froze. </sentence><sentence id="485">For some reason, something within side me said, "Don't say anything." </sentence><sentence id="486">And he kept saying, "How old are you?!"--"Wie alt bist du?!" </sentence><sentence id="487">And I just kept looking him, not saying anything. </sentence><sentence id="488">And my father didn't know, either, what was...why he asked age. </sentence><sentence id="489">And all of a sudden, he said I'm 14. </sentence><sentence id="490">He sensed something, all of a sudden, then. </sentence><sentence id="491">And he [NB: the Nazi officer] looked at me kind of suspiciously... "14?" </sentence><sentence id="492">And in a split second said, "Okay, you can go with the work group." </sentence><sentence id="493">If I... I kept wanting to say the voice, "No. </sentence><sentence id="494">No, Dad. </sentence><sentence id="495">I'm only 12." </sentence><sentence id="496">And something held me back. </sentence><sentence id="497">If I would have said 12, that would have been it. </sentence><sentence id="498">What made me uh hold back my voice and not speaking, and what made him say... perhaps only God knows. </sentence><sentence id="499">Or somebody. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="549">Q: So then you were put in with a work group, or separated from your... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="551">A: Family. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="553">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="554">You... Okay. </sentence><sentence id="555">You are there. </sentence><sentence id="556">At this time, you had arrived... This was <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="561">A: Right. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="563">Q: Where did you go next, or what did you...? </sentence><sentence id="564">What happened next? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="567">A: Well, in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>...uh they put us in a separate <span class="interior space">compounds</span>, and gave us those cotton uniforms. </sentence><sentence id="568">Uh, and we were just waiting there. </sentence><sentence id="569">We had no idea uh what was. </sentence><sentence id="570">And then when I...during the day, when I walked around with my father, I would ask him, "What is that terrible smell? </sentence><sentence id="571">What are all those <span class="dlf">chimneys</span>, that smoke and everything?" </sentence><sentence id="572">Either he wouldn't know...he didn't know, or wouldn't tell me. </sentence><sentence id="573">He just didn't say anything. </sentence><sentence id="574">And that stench is just gruesome... awesome, from that smell constantly. </sentence><sentence id="575">And you see the smoke from the <span class="spatial object">ovens</span> day and night. </sentence><sentence id="576">And just to give you an example how we were duped into believing, to a point, that what they were doing was not happening, is a man came in all of a sudden in our <span class="building">barracks</span> and he announced. </sentence><sentence id="577">He says, "I've got good news. </sentence><sentence id="578">I've just heard that in a couple of days we will be reunited with our families." </sentence><sentence id="579">And the families were dead already, and he still believed. </sentence><sentence id="580">Now can you imagine that? </sentence><sentence id="581">Still in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> itself already, and not being ab...not believing that this could be happening. </sentence><sentence id="582">So how can you convince anybody else to try to tell a story, when in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> itself the people wouldn't believe that this could be happening? </sentence><sentence id="583">So when... after about 5 or 6 days and they had arranged there, we told...we were told to march out and uh to get onto a <span class="spatial object">cattle train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="584">And we were in that group about um...13 people--13, 15. </sentence><sentence id="585">Or in that <span class="region">range</span>. </sentence><sentence id="586">And we got on the <span class="spatial object">train</span>, uh my father said that today's my Bar Mitzvah. </sentence><sentence id="587">And he had secretly hidden, risking his life, a little bottle of wine. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="588">And he took it out; and he passed it around to everybody, and everyone had a little sip and had a toast. </sentence><sentence id="589">And that's how I celebrated my Bar Mitzvah. </sentence><sentence id="590">It was very sad. </sentence><sentence id="591">But there was no time to think then on this. </sentence><sentence id="592">The time then was survival. </sentence><sentence id="593">That was... It keep...it kept us going, to believe that we're going to make it. </sentence><sentence id="594">And, hopefully, that our families will survive, too. </sentence><sentence id="595">We did not know what happened to them, actually. </sentence><sentence id="596">Uh... </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="597">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="598">So you were now back on a <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="599">A: Right. </sentence><sentence id="600">And the <span class="spatial object">train</span> took a couple of days. </sentence><sentence id="601">And then we embarked in a place that I found later on was called <span class="building">Plasz6w</span>." </sentence><sentence id="602"><span class="populated place">Plaszow</span> was a combination of <span class="populated place">work camp</span> and <span class="populated place">extermination camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="603">A lot of the Gypsies were brought in for extermination in that <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="604">And one of the things that I was told is survival means the ability to work. </sentence><sentence id="605">If you could work, there was hope for survival. </sentence><sentence id="606">If you couldn't work, you were done. </sentence><sentence id="607">So mentally I had to psyche myself out that I'm adult and I could do the work; and I wanted to survive. </sentence><sentence id="608">And so when we got there, I was still with my father. </sentence><sentence id="609">And one of the first thing they did, is they asked...they wanted to have people who had trades. </sentence><sentence id="610">First thing they selected first in work groups. </sentence><sentence id="611">And then they were...uh with all others, if they couldn't fit into work, then it was back to the <span class="populated place">extermination camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="612">So then my father was fall...fell out of the group as a tailor. </sentence><sentence id="613">And then they said, "<span class="building">Bricklayers</span>. </sentence><sentence id="614">Who's a bricklayer?" </sentence><sentence id="615">I raised my hand. " </sentence><sentence id="616">I'm a bricklayer." </sentence><sentence id="617">I never laid a brick or a stone in my life. </sentence><sentence id="618">I never even touched one. </sentence><sentence id="619">But as I was in the <span class="populated place">camp</span>, I saw how people laid the bricks and the stones, how they mixed the cement. </sentence><sentence id="620">And so I figured, "Well, I could do that." </sentence><sentence id="621">They said, "Okay. </sentence><sentence id="622">Fall in <span class="dlf">line</span>." </sentence><sentence id="623">And they put me in the work group; and I...in their eyes, I was a professional bricklayer. ( </sentence><sentence id="624">Laughing) And I would mix cement and carrying the <span class="spatial object">wheelbarrow</span>. </sentence><sentence id="625">And we had to go to a <span class="dlf">mine</span> where they mined stones, and then we had to carry each stone to a certain <span class="region">area</span> and build a little <span class="dlf">wall</span> underneath the <span class="building">barracks</span>. </sentence><sentence id="626">It was useless work, for all practical purposes; but it kept us busy. </sentence><sentence id="627">In their eyes, we were doing something. </sentence><sentence id="628">So, at least I was able to be with my father together. </sentence><sentence id="629">And one of the things that stands out in that <span class="populated place">camp</span>, that I remember, that I was working with a Polish. </sentence><sentence id="630">He was Christian, and he was there... was incarcerated because he committed a crime. </sentence><sentence id="631">So they also put him with us. </sentence><sentence id="632">And he got a certain... And when we worked together, we talked about things: life, and uh he was telling me why he was...what crime he committed. </sentence><sentence id="633">And next day, to flaunt [it] in my face, he waves goodbye. </sentence><sentence id="634">Because he was released, free to go. </sentence><sentence id="635">And here I thought, "I did not any crime or anything. </sentence><sentence id="636">And mine, there's no time limit for me. </sentence><sentence id="637">Only death would be the limit." </sentence><sentence id="638">It was uh very, very sad to see that-- knowing that here he could go free, and here I didn't do anything that I was virtually sentenced for life. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="679">Q: How long were you there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="681">A: Well, in uh <span class="populated place">Plaszow</span>, I was there about 6 weeks. </sentence><sentence id="682">All of a sudden, without any warning, they yanked me out from the work group. </sentence><sentence id="683">Nobody...there's no such thing as sitting down like you would say, "Well, tomorrow you're going to go someplace else, or do that." </sentence><sentence id="684">Just, "Come!" </sentence><sentence id="685">And they yanked me and said, "Tonight, uh you're going to a different <span class="populated place">camp</span>." </sentence><sentence id="686">And fortunately, I looked all around and I was able to find my father. </sentence><sentence id="687">And we said goodbye ? </sentence><sentence id="688">Also: <span class="populated place">Krakau-P_aszow</span>. </sentence><sentence id="689">Located in the district of <span class="populated place">Krakow</span>. </sentence><sentence id="690">Closed January 15, 1945. </sentence><sentence id="691"> through the <span class="dlf">fence</span>. </sentence><sentence id="692">And it was a very, very sad moment, too; knowing that I would never see him again. </sentence><sentence id="693">It...it just you had that feeling. </sentence><sentence id="694">I didn't give up hope, but it was very strange feeling. </sentence><sentence id="695">Then they put me on a <span class="spatial object">train</span>, and uh was like an overnight travel. </sentence><sentence id="696">And I found out after we arrived that it was a <span class="populated place">camp</span> called <span class="populated place">Gross Rosen</span>. </sentence><sentence id="697"><span class="populated place">Gross Rosen</span> was...I found out was a combination. </sentence><sentence id="698">An <span class="populated place">extermination camp</span>, and <span class="populated place">processing camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="699">So that when (excuse me) when the Russians were getting closer in <span class="populated place">Plaszew</span>, they didn't want us to be free...they took us to <span class="populated place">Gross Rosen</span>. </sentence><sentence id="700">And in <span class="populated place">Gross Rosen</span>, they uh...we were waiting there and in process of being sent to another <span class="populated place">work camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="701">But before...uh we...they determined if we're going to be sent to a <span class="populated place">work camp</span> or where, we were forced to strip naked in front of a...a doctor or somebody. </sentence><sentence id="702">And he looked us over like cattle. </sentence><sentence id="703">And he determined whether you were physically fit to do heavy physical work. </sentence><sentence id="704">Or if not, then there was..they had the <span class="populated place">extermination camp</span> right there. </sentence><sentence id="705">And I...they did not tell you where you're going to be sent or what. </sentence><sentence id="706">And after about 6 weeks--it seems like an average cycle (laughing)--6 weeks, they put me in a <span class="spatial object">train</span> again. </sentence><sentence id="707">I'd become a professional (laughing) traveller at that time. </sentence><sentence id="708">And then I found out...at this time I was in a <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="709">Actually, the first <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> itself. </sentence><sentence id="710">And the <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span>, meaning that in this <span class="populated place">camp</span> it was primarily for work. </sentence><sentence id="711">And when they wanted to exterminate somebody or end his life, they took him to places like <span class="populated place">GroB Rosen</span> or <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="712">They had their methods to their madness. </sentence><sentence id="713">So again, in <span class="populated place">Reichenbach</span>," the same thing. " </sentence><sentence id="714">We need bricklayers." </sentence><sentence id="715">Now, since I was a professional bricklayer (laughing), I right away raised my hand. </sentence><sentence id="716">And I was put into a work group. </sentence><sentence id="717">And it was very, very, very difficult work. </sentence><sentence id="718">We had to march several miles to work. </sentence><sentence id="719">And I was already half dead when I already got to work. </sentence><sentence id="720">And then to work yet, uh it took all the strength just to make it through the marching. </sentence><sentence id="721">And then, when we marched back, if a person was not physically able to complete the march, they just shot him on the spot. </sentence><sentence id="722">There was no...there was no such thing. </sentence><sentence id="723">So uh... So in <span class="populated place">Reichenbach</span>, it was...uh this is where I spent the most time. </sentence><sentence id="724">I was there about 6 months. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="770">Q: This is where you spent most of the time. </sentence><sentence id="771">Can you tell us something about what... What was your daily life like? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="774">A: Well, we lived in the <span class="building">barracks</span>. </sentence><sentence id="775">It was like this for the winter. </sentence><sentence id="776">Ice cold; no heating at all. </sentence><sentence id="777">In the morning, we had to get up about 4:00 in the morning and take an ice cold <span class="interior space">shower</span> in an ice cold <span class="building">barracks</span>. </sentence><sentence id="778">After we took the <span class="interior space">shower</span>, we had to go and stand outside in the bitter cold for roll call. </sentence><sentence id="779">And finally, after that, they would give us some coffee and a piece of bread. </sentence><sentence id="780">That was our ration. </sentence><sentence id="781">And then...uh we would then be on standby for which work group we're going to go. </sentence><sentence id="782">Because every day they need work in different <span class="region">areas</span>. </sentence><sentence id="783">So then they would select us to go to a certain...oftentimes, work in the <span class="building">city building</span> <span class="building">air raid shelters</span>. </sentence><sentence id="784">And when there would be a raid, we had to stay in the open. </sentence><sentence id="785">And they watched us from a distance. [ </sentence><sentence id="786">If] we > Also: Langenbielau I. Subcamp of <span class="building">Gro8 Rosen</span> located in <span class="region">Lower Silesia</span>. </sentence><sentence id="787"> 0 ran, we would be shot. </sentence><sentence id="788">So we were not afraid; because when we saw the <span class="spatial object">airplanes</span>, we knew when we heard the bombing that they're coming to liberate us. </sentence><sentence id="789">A uh very unique incident happened in <span class="populated place">Reichenbach</span> that kind of stands out a little bit. </sentence><sentence id="790">Is when I was standing for roll call there; and as I'm standing, all of a sudden I hear a noise in the <span class="env feature">sky</span>. </sentence><sentence id="791">And during roll call, it was a rule you were not supposed to make any movement. </sentence><sentence id="792">Not anything. </sentence><sentence id="793">And I was very curious. </sentence><sentence id="794">I looked up to see where that noise was coming from; and I saw it was <span class="spatial object">American bombers</span> flying over there on a mission to destroy <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="795">And as I looked up with envy, wishing that I was one of those <span class="spatial object">planes</span>, thinking [of] being free, all of a sudden I hear a shrill right in front of me that could be heard in front of the whole <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="796">There was a Nazi Commandant saw me looking up. </sentence><sentence id="797">And: "Du! </sentence><sentence id="798">Schweinhund!" </sentence><sentence id="799">Why did I disobey his order? </sentence><sentence id="800">And he had a big stick in his hand. </sentence><sentence id="801">And his habit was, if somebody disobeyed one of his orders, he would ask him first, "Why did you do that," or "Why did you disobey?" </sentence><sentence id="802">And soon as the person answered, wham! </sentence><sentence id="803">He let him have it. </sentence><sentence id="804">And oftentimes that person would be beaten so badly that he could not go back to work, or [it] put him to death. </sentence><sentence id="805">Now here was my turn. " </sentence><sentence id="806">Why did you disobey?" </sentence><sentence id="807">And the little voice inside that told me in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> not to say anything, to keep quiet, was there the same thing. </sentence><sentence id="808">Saying, "Don't answer! </sentence><sentence id="809">Don't say anything!" </sentence><sentence id="810">And I was just looking straight in his eyes. </sentence><sentence id="811">And he was waiting for me to reply, and he was getting very impatient. </sentence><sentence id="812">In front of the whole <span class="populated place">camp</span> there, here's a little Jew standing up there (laughing) that won't do what he says. </sentence><sentence id="813">And that little voice inside saying, "Don't answer. </sentence><sentence id="814">Don't say anything." </sentence><sentence id="815">He's getting...he says, "I know why you looked up." </sentence><sentence id="816">He says, "You wish you were on one of those <span class="spatial object">planes</span>, don't you? </sentence><sentence id="817">You wish you were free!," </sentence><sentence id="818">he says. </sentence><sentence id="819">And I just keep looking straight in the eye. </sentence><sentence id="820">He says, "Well, I got news for you!" </sentence><sentence id="821">He says, "You'll never be free again. </sentence><sentence id="822">You'll never make it out alive from here!" </sentence><sentence id="823">And I just looked him straight in the eye; and I said, "Someday..." He couldn't even see my lips move. " </sentence><sentence id="824">Someday, I will be free again. </sentence><sentence id="825">And some day I will see your <span class="country">country</span> destroyed for what you have done." </sentence><sentence id="826">And this is what I was just thinking. </sentence><sentence id="827">And he's looking, and he's waiting for me. </sentence><sentence id="828">Here it is. </sentence><sentence id="829">I'm almost bracing myself that he's going to do it; and I'm just holding there steady and not saying. </sentence><sentence id="830">And he's waiting and waiting. </sentence><sentence id="831">And somehow he sensed that I wasn't going to answer. </sentence><sentence id="832">And he was in no condition...condition to hit somebody who didn't answer, and just walked away in disgust. ( </sentence><sentence id="833">Laughing) Phew. </sentence><sentence id="834">And here it was, another day of survival. </sentence><sentence id="835">Now the interesting ending of this story is that during the Korean uh Conflict, I was drafted in the [<span class="country">US</span>] military service. </sentence><sentence id="836">And afterwards I was sent overseas on a mission to keep the peace in Europe; and as I was flying over Europe and over <span class="country">Germany</span>, I looked at the <span class="env feature">ground</span> below. </sentence><sentence id="837">And I wondered if that Nazi Commandant was still alive. </sentence><sentence id="838">And if he was still alive, what would he have said if he knew that I was not only free, but also in one of those <span class="spatial object">planes</span>. </sentence><sentence id="839">For me, it was a moment to remember, that when... They say that justice triumphed over evil. </sentence><sentence id="840">That day that... 1 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="909">Q: Let's come back to your typical day. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="911">A: Yes. ( </sentence><sentence id="912">Drinking water) Excuse me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="915">Q: In this <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="916">You stood for roll call, and then you went to work? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="919">A: Well, afterwards they uh...the Nazi Commandant sensed that there is still some youth left under 16 in the...in the work groups. </sentence><sentence id="920">And he didn't know how to... guess you use the words "flush them out." </sentence><sentence id="921">Because we all said we were older, and we were able to do the work. </sentence><sentence id="922">So then they couldn't say that we couldn't do the work; because if we couldn't have done the work, they wouldn't have kept us there in the first place. </sentence><sentence id="923">But he was very determined that he was not going to let any youth. </sentence><sentence id="924">And then he decided he's going to play one of his games different; that he is going to offer extra rations to anybody that can turn in a youth under 16.It's amazing what happens. </sentence><sentence id="925">There's only a few that knew about my age. </sentence><sentence id="926">Adults there. </sentence><sentence id="927">And before I knew it, all of a sudden I was yanked out from the work group and put with... We were about 13 in the <span class="populated place">camp</span> who were still...uh managed to hide until now. </sentence><sentence id="928">And this time, they told us that we're being sent to an <span class="populated place">extermination camp</span> because of...of our age. </sentence><sentence id="929">And I remember standing there with a group of others; and my thoughts were going through that this is the last day of life and that tomorrow will be end, and that I'll never return <span class="building">home</span> again. </sentence><sentence id="930">And all of a sudden, I started concentrating mentally: that I want to return <span class="building">home</span>, I want to be with my family, I want to be free again. </sentence><sentence id="931">And I started--without me even being aware of this coming--it's like the mind almost like going out of control, the concentration. </sentence><sentence id="932">All of a sudden, as I'm doing that, here's the Nazi Commandant front of me, standing there. </sentence><sentence id="933">And I thought... "Raus!," </sentence><sentence id="934">he says. </sentence><sentence id="935">And I thought I'm the first one that going to be shot or something. </sentence><sentence id="936">And all of a sudden, what happened that moment was that a group that was going out, a person had just passed out. </sentence><sentence id="937">And he [NB: the Commandant] went...passed through over a hundred people who were on standby--adults--and didn't ask them. </sentence><sentence id="938">And came to my group, and ordered me to go back into the work group. </sentence><sentence id="939">All the others were taken to extermination. </sentence><sentence id="940">And for me, it was like a rekindling. </sentence><sentence id="941">Here I was. </sentence><sentence id="942">As long as you were in a work group, there was still hope for survival. </sentence><sentence id="943">The interesting thing was...is that while I had hopes for survival being in the work group, I knew that now the Nazi Commandant knew about my age. </sentence><sentence id="944">He knew about me. </sentence><sentence id="945">And every day, I wondered, "How long am I going to remain in the work group?" </sentence><sentence id="946">I knew that he was very obsessed. </sentence><sentence id="947">Sure enough, after 6 weeks, I was yanked out of the work group and was taken into another <span class="building">compound</span>. </sentence><sentence id="948">What they did is that they had a separate compound for those who are no longer considered physically fit to work. </sentence><sentence id="949">And they would take them over to the <span class="building">compound</span>, and then a <span class="spatial object">train</span> would take them to a <span class="populated place">extermination camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="950">So this time, I pretty much resigned myself that no...no more concentration of being surviving, being able to make it; that this time I'm not going to make it, even though the will 2 and desire was still there. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="984">Q: So you...you sort of somewhat gave up on it. </sentence><sentence id="985">But you...then what happened to you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="988">A: Well, after about two weeks of uh...and being in that <span class="building">compound</span> with the disabled and others... Uh, ironically, is during all this time--throughout the time there was now is about 9 months--throughout the ordeals, being exposed to all kinds of sicknesses and diseases-- typhus, cholera--I never even got sick once. </sentence><sentence id="989">Didn't even catch a cold. </sentence><sentence id="990">And because of my age...uh they found that I'm now...I was now with the disabled. </sentence><sentence id="991">And after about two weeks, they said, "Okay! </sentence><sentence id="992">Everybody up!" </sentence><sentence id="993">They didn't tell us what. </sentence><sentence id="994">And they took us into like half open <span class="spatial object">cattle train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="995">They gave us each a piece of bread. </sentence><sentence id="996">And to march in; and they packed us in in the <span class="spatial object">train</span> so tight. </sentence><sentence id="997">I mean, like standing up, there was no <span class="interior space">room</span> to move. </sentence><sentence id="998">It was like sardines. </sentence><sentence id="999">So we knew that wherever we're heading, that this is going to be the final journey. </sentence><sentence id="1000">This is not being taken to a <span class="populated place">work camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1001">And this was a journey that I will never forget for the rest of my life. </sentence><sentence id="1002">First, it...when we started that some people start getting weaker, and they could no longer stand anymore. </sentence><sentence id="1003">Then they would fall down; and they'd be trampled on, because there was no <span class="interior space">room</span> to move. </sentence><sentence id="1004">And soon as they were trampled on, they died. </sentence><sentence id="1005">They did not remove the dead after the <span class="spatial object">train</span> started. </sentence><sentence id="1006">And this...as...this was a 7 day journey. </sentence><sentence id="1007">And as the time went on, more people started passing out. </sentence><sentence id="1008">And one time, | still recall this, one uh Nazi came. </sentence><sentence id="1009">And then he...somebody spoke up or asked for some help, and he shot him right through the neck. </sentence><sentence id="1010">And he just fell down. </sentence><sentence id="1011">And it was an experience that I will never forget the rest of my life, is I fell down; and because there was now... About half of them were dead already; and you would sit and you talk to somebody just like a person like that like I'm talking to you, and all of a sudden he'd stop talking. </sentence><sentence id="1012">Just like that. </sentence><sentence id="1013">Just in the middle of the conversation, he died right there on the spot. </sentence><sentence id="1014">I had no idea. </sentence><sentence id="1015">This is the first time I was really confronted with death; because throughout when I lived in my <span class="populated place">hometown</span>, not...not one member of my family ever died or even went to a funeral. </sentence><sentence id="1016">And this was a strange experience. </sentence><sentence id="1017">You just see him and all of a sudden stop talking, and he stays with the eyes open. </sentence><sentence id="1018">Then when I fell down, I uh...there was somebody fell on top of me. </sentence><sentence id="1019">And I felt like...I actually felt like I'm dying already. </sentence><sentence id="1020">I could feel like...there was a feeling like I wanted to go to sleep. </sentence><sentence id="1021">It was not a painful feeling. </sentence><sentence id="1022">Just going to sleep. </sentence><sentence id="1023">And there was inside...this is... We have some...such awesome power within us. </sentence><sentence id="1024">There was like...kept seeing, like an electric shock I kept getting. " </sentence><sentence id="1025">Don't fall asleep! </sentence><sentence id="1026">Don't fall asleep! </sentence><sentence id="1027">Wake up! </sentence><sentence id="1028">Wake up, because this is gonna be your last sleep!" </sentence><sentence id="1029">And I didn't know how to get the body off me, because I was so weak. </sentence><sentence id="1030">And yet I knew that if I don't push him off that it'll be the end. </sentence><sentence id="1031">So that little voice saying, "Come on! </sentence><sentence id="1032">Muster all your strength, and you got to push him off." </sentence><sentence id="1033">So all of a sudden then I just got on and the last strength. </sentence><sentence id="1034">And I pushed him off. </sentence><sentence id="1035">And then I fell on top of him. </sentence><sentence id="1036">And now he was trying to struggle to survive. </sentence><sentence id="1037">And I just...I didn't even have the strength to move. </sentence><sentence id="1038">And he was trying to push me off, and he didn't have the strength. </sentence><sentence id="1039">And I didn't have the strength to move, and we... Neither of us wanted to hurt each other or anything, but the 3 bodies were all around. </sentence><sentence id="1040">There, nobody moved. </sentence><sentence id="1041">It was the most awesome, gruesome thing that ever human beings can do. </sentence><sentence id="1042">And we would travel by...I remember we would be...would be like a <span class="dlf">bridge</span> overhead, where <span class="spatial object">trains</span> go by, and it stopped. </sentence><sentence id="1043">And people would look down, and look at us like, "What's going on? </sentence><sentence id="1044">It's kinda strange." </sentence><sentence id="1045">And they had no idea what it was all about. </sentence><sentence id="1046">And then all of a sudden, when I finally did push him up out of the way and I...he fell down and I...I fell on top of him. </sentence><sentence id="1047">Now he was struggling to push me off. </sentence><sentence id="1048">And I was holding there; and all of a sudden, he got up and his final moment of breath and he bit my leg, right in here. </sentence><sentence id="1049">And then he fell back and died. </sentence><sentence id="1050">I had the most gruesome, gruesome nightmares for many years from this experience. ( </sentence><sentence id="1051">Pause) </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1116">Q: How many days...which day was this here? </sentence><sentence id="1117">You said the journey was 7 days? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1120">A: About seven days, I recall. </sentence><sentence id="1121">Yah. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1124">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="1125">What happened...what happened next? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1128">A: Well, the journey...my thirst. </sentence><sentence id="1129">They didn't...they just gave us a piece of bread. </sentence><sentence id="1130">We couldn't even eat, because we were very thirsty. </sentence><sentence id="1131">And the thirst pains were so bad that I even tried to use the urine from my body, just to wet my lips. </sentence><sentence id="1132">And I pretty much, as it went down uh...When we arrive, this was, I found out later, in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1133">And when we arrived, I had already passed out, virtually. </sentence><sentence id="1134">Three out of 150 there survived. </sentence><sentence id="1135">They all...the rest of them just lay dead. </sentence><sentence id="1136">And what they did is, they pick me up from the...with the hands and somebody else with the legs. </sentence><sentence id="1137">And then they threw me in a <span class="spatial object">stretcher</span>...and they're getting ready to take me to the <span class="building">crematorium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1138">That's where they took...that's where their objective was. </sentence><sentence id="1139">And somehow, they...somebody who was carrying me noticed a hand moving, that I was still alive. </sentence><sentence id="1140">So at a tisk to his life, he took me into a <span class="building">barrack</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1141">It was actually like a <span class="interior space">shower room</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1142">And I was dazed at that time. </sentence><sentence id="1143">Virtually, I had no idea. </sentence><sentence id="1144">I thought... And when I came to [in] the <span class="interior space">bathroom</span> there, it was... I woke up, and I...I thought I was dead. </sentence><sentence id="1145">I felt like I was in another world. </sentence><sentence id="1146">"What are these people doing here? </sentence><sentence id="1147">Where am I?" </sentence><sentence id="1148">And I thought, I...L..I was totally dazed. </sentence><sentence id="1149">I couldn't figure out even where I am. </sentence><sentence id="1150">And then somebody came over and told me what happened. </sentence><sentence id="1151">Explained to me that "You were just a few seconds away from being thrust into the <span class="building">crematorium</span>, and they saw that you were still alive." </sentence><sentence id="1152">And they said, "You're the first youth that age who actually made it alive." </sentence><sentence id="1153">And then they took me and they hid me, you know, secretly in their <span class="building">barracks</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1154">So I was not even supposed to have been there. </sentence><sentence id="1155">And I became like, to them, like a hero. </sentence><sentence id="1156">That here are these fathers who said, well, if I made it then maybe their children would have made it through. </sentence><sentence id="1157">And they...since I didn't get any rations, because I was... The ration was there like a piece of bread--enough to keep them alive until they were actually being...were going to be taken to the <span class="building">crematorium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1158">And each one would take a piece of bread; and they would break off a piece and make up a slice for me, so that I could survive. </sentence><sentence id="1159">And they said, "David, you must survive and let the world know what 4 happened." </sentence><sentence id="1160">I had no idea what they meant, or what they said. </sentence><sentence id="1161">That basically was what had driven me to tell this story--not to make sure that it is not...make sure that it is not forgotten. </sentence><sentence id="1162">And so over there, after... In <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>, I..uh started getting on my feet again; and found out I was in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1163">And uh... Every night I heard the <span class="env feature">earth</span> shaking from the bombardments. </sentence><sentence id="1164">And here, in my mind I was thinking, "It is now really a race against time." </sentence><sentence id="1165">We knew any day that this is going to end. </sentence><sentence id="1166">The question was if we're going to make it out alive. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1207">Q: So this gave you some more courage? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1209">A: Hope. </sentence><sentence id="1210">To be able to go on, to...to believe. </sentence><sentence id="1211">What kept me is the belief that maybe my family is still alive. </sentence><sentence id="1212">And it was... in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>, it was uh really uh very traumatic experiences that you would talk to one person one night, and the next morning he's dead. </sentence><sentence id="1213">And then he would be taken like a piece of garbage and thrown on the <span class="spatial object">stretcher</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1214">You don't think...you're not a human being anymore. </sentence><sentence id="1215">You don't even know what you're thinking. </sentence><sentence id="1216">You're just a person dazed, traumatized. </sentence><sentence id="1217">And don't even know by what I'm hanging in. </sentence><sentence id="1218">But the will to live there was still strong. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1229">Q: What happened next after that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1231">A: Well, I was there about 6 weeks. </sentence><sentence id="1232">And all of a sudden, again, I was yanked out (laughing) without any warning and put on a <span class="spatial object">train</span> again. </sentence><sentence id="1233">Now this time I could consider myself really a professional! </sentence><sentence id="1234">It was a really a strange experience. </sentence><sentence id="1235">I actually walked out of <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> on my own two feet--which a Nazi said...Commandant in <span class="populated place">Reichenbach</span> said I would never do. </sentence><sentence id="1236">They took the few of us that could still walk, and they marched us out. </sentence><sentence id="1237">And we had no idea why they were marching us out. </sentence><sentence id="1238">This was about three days before the Americans came. </sentence><sentence id="1239">And they put us in a <span class="spatial object">passenger train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1240">And I learned, years later, what actually their main purpose was. </sentence><sentence id="1241">But at that time, I didn't know. </sentence><sentence id="1242">And we travelled for about a couple of hours or so; and then they told us to get off the <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1243">And I found out that I was...it was a little <span class="populated place">town</span> in <span class="country">Austria</span> called <span class="populated place">Innsbruck</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1244">And as we were walk...marching off from...getting off from the <span class="building">train station</span>, I remember that I saw...I looked...a couple of women in a group there, looking...were staring at us. </sentence><sentence id="1245">That they were crying. </sentence><sentence id="1246">And within me, I sensed that something is going to happen to us. </sentence><sentence id="1247">And after we marched out of the <span class="building">station</span> into the <span class="env feature">forest</span>, they started shooting at us. </sentence><sentence id="1248">They massacred many of them. </sentence><sentence id="1249">And we got to a <span class="dlf">street</span>, uh...and it was, this was...this was in the <span class="env feature">mountains</span>, in the <span class="env feature">forest</span>...in the <span class="region">Tyrolian Mountains</span> of <span class="country">Austria</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1250">And all of a sudden, they started...the <span class="spatial object">machine guns</span> started firing at us. </sentence><sentence id="1251">And many just panicked, run in every direction. </sentence><sentence id="1252">Something...I had something inside told me, "Look where that fire is coming from." </sentence><sentence id="1253">And as I saw it, and I dived into a <span class="dlf">hole</span> in the side of the <span class="dlf">street</span> and it just missed me. </sentence><sentence id="1254">And uh this was still in April of "45, now. </sentence><sentence id="1255">And I slept all night in that <span class="dlf">hole</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1256">When I woke up in the morning, snow was all over me and I was virtually frozen. </sentence><sentence id="1257">I couldn't get up. </sentence><sentence id="1258">And I had to walk bent over. </sentence><sentence id="1259">I had no idea where I was, what in the Hell I'm doing here. </sentence><sentence id="1260">And <span class="building">I 5</span> started...I just started trying to straighten out a little bit; and then I started marching. </sentence><sentence id="1261">And all of a sudden, the Germans came and rounded us up again--those who survived. </sentence><sentence id="1262">And then... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1295">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="1296">Can you hold for a little while? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1299">A: Yah, sure. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1301">Q: Because they're going to have to change and put in a new tape. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1303">A: Yah. </sentence><sentence id="1304">Okay. </sentence><sentence id="1305">Good. </sentence><sentence id="1306"> 6 TAPE #2 </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1307"> TECHNICAL CONVERSATION </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1308">A: Well, after they rounded us up again...uh it was a strange phenomena that happened. </sentence><sentence id="1309">All of a sudden, there were soldiers, civilians, hunters with their rifles got together with us. </sentence><sentence id="1310">And no one talked to us. </sentence><sentence id="1311">No one said a word to us, or what's going, or where we're heading. </sentence><sentence id="1312">And just told [us] to march. </sentence><sentence id="1313">And...(excuse me)...and we had no idea where we're going. </sentence><sentence id="1314">All I knew is that I was marching towards the <span class="dlf">front lines</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1315">And I saw the German soldiers retreating, going the other way. </sentence><sentence id="1316">And we kept going "til nightfall. </sentence><sentence id="1317">And all of a sudden, when we got through...nightfall came, they told us to march forward. </sentence><sentence id="1318">And then they disappeared. </sentence><sentence id="1319">Everyone! </sentence><sentence id="1320">The hunters, the civilians, the soldiers... No one tells you, and you don't question. </sentence><sentence id="1321">And then, as a protection, a few of us, we went and started climbing the <span class="env feature">mountain</span> there. </sentence><sentence id="1322">We figured we would be safer. </sentence><sentence id="1323">We didn't...the guards disappeared. </sentence><sentence id="1324">We were left on our own. </sentence><sentence id="1325">So then I marched to the highest <span class="env feature">mountain</span>, with the strength that I had left; and I slept in a <span class="building">barn</span> there overnight. </sentence><sentence id="1326">We found a <span class="building">barn</span> on top of the <span class="env feature">mountain</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1327">And when morning came, there were about 10 of us assembled there. </sentence><sentence id="1328">We could look from the top of the <span class="env feature">mountains</span>, there were <span class="spatial object">vehicles</span> going there. </sentence><sentence id="1329">But we couldn't tell whether they were <span class="spatial object">German vehicles</span> or whether they were American. </sentence><sentence id="1330">And so somebody said... You know, I didn't have any food. </sentence><sentence id="1331">I was very starved. </sentence><sentence id="1332">And somebody had [food] there. </sentence><sentence id="1333">They said, "We'll give you some food if you'll go down and take a look." ( </sentence><sentence id="1334">Laughing) Well, I figured like this: "If they're Americans, I would be free. </sentence><sentence id="1335">And if...if not, either way, I'd end up being starved to death or be back in captivity." </sentence><sentence id="1336">So I said, "I'll go." </sentence><sentence id="1337">That was the most suspenseful walk down the <span class="env feature">mountain</span> in my life. </sentence><sentence id="1338">I am walking slowly, slowly, slowly, to go down and see who are they. </sentence><sentence id="1339">Well, I could not tell what <span class="spatial object">American vehicles</span> look like; but I knew they were not German. </sentence><sentence id="1340">So I assumed it must be (laughing) the Americans. </sentence><sentence id="1341">And as I walked down and I saw that they were not German, I motioned for the others also to come down. </sentence><sentence id="1342">I never did get the food, (laughing) because I never went back up again for it. </sentence><sentence id="1343">And I saw <span class="spatial object">military vehicles</span> going by. </sentence><sentence id="1344">And for me, that was one of the most moving experiences in my life. </sentence><sentence id="1345">Because I actually saw the mighty German Army surrender. </sentence><sentence id="1346">American soldiers holding guns behind. </sentence><sentence id="1347">And here are these same soldiers [who] were holding guns on my back, and now somebody else. </sentence><sentence id="1348">This is...it's so difficult to explain...to...how life can be. </sentence><sentence id="1349">Here, one day here's a group of people that wanted to destroy you; and here's another group of people that want to save you. </sentence><sentence id="1350">And as I got down the <span class="env feature">mountain</span>, I waved a <span class="spatial object">vehicle</span> to flag him down. </sentence><sentence id="1351">So [he] pulled over. </sentence><sentence id="1352">And it was one of those small <span class="spatial object">trucks</span> where soldiers were sitting in the back. </sentence><sentence id="1353">And I waved at him; and I couldn't speak a word of English. </sentence><sentence id="1354">So, the only thing [NB: way] I would tell him that I'm hungry, I just pointed my finger (laughing) at my mouth. </sentence><sentence id="1355">So they 7 gave me some crackers, and they just went on. </sentence><sentence id="1356">And I just started walking. </sentence><sentence id="1357">I don't know where I was walking. ( </sentence><sentence id="1358">Laughing) There wasn't anybody there uh picking me up, or asking. </sentence><sentence id="1359">They were just busy, the soldiers, going up to finishing up the final remnants of resistance. </sentence><sentence id="1360">Um, I wanted to share something, to back track a little bit, on... When the Germans had retreated and the...we were walking towards the <span class="env feature">mountains</span>, we were actually walking into a <span class="dlf">line</span> of fire. </sentence><sentence id="1361">Because the American soldiers... That's what actually the Germans wanted. </sentence><sentence id="1362">They wanted us...hoping we would get killed by American firepower. </sentence><sentence id="1363">And we received a terrific pounding. </sentence><sentence id="1364">The <span class="env feature">earth</span> was shaking and trembling from <span class="spatial object">American guns</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1365">Because they...we were right in no <span class="region">man's land</span>, there in between. </sentence><sentence id="1366">So after having gone through that <span class="region">Hell</span>--and I remember that night, saying, "If I'd only make it through that night," I said, "I would be free." </sentence><sentence id="1367">And I wrote... Later on, I wrote a poem about that...I'm not afraid... Entitled, "I'm not Afraid to March Forward, Because that's the <span class="dlf">Road to Freedom</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1368">And that poem won a golden award for that. </sentence><sentence id="1369">So it made me feel pretty good. </sentence><sentence id="1370">It describes my feelings as I am marching toward the <span class="dlf">front lines</span>--the thoughts, and the feeling that tomorrow I'll be free again. </sentence><sentence id="1371">And then I...[ have some music with it; and I used it as a teaching [tool]. </sentence><sentence id="1372">And when I speak to students, we sing it together. </sentence><sentence id="1373">And...and it's very inspirational for them. </sentence><sentence id="1374">And as I started going back, I started walking, a <span class="spatial object">military vehicle</span> stopped and picked me up. </sentence><sentence id="1375">And what they were doing, they were picking up survivors like me, stragglers who were lost. </sentence><sentence id="1376">And they carried me through...first to a <span class="populated place">German town</span>, and uh...<span class="populated place">Gar</span>...<span class="populated place">Garmisch</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1377">Yah, <span class="populated place">Garmisch</span> is there. </sentence><sentence id="1378">And we...it was interesting. </sentence><sentence id="1379">I saw most of the women were wearing white nurses" cap. </sentence><sentence id="1380">So I asked, "What is a white nursing... Why is everybody all of sudden a nurse?" </sentence><sentence id="1381">Well, what I was explained is that the Russians, when they invaded, they used to rape women. </sentence><sentence id="1382">And this way, they thought the Americans would do the same things. </sentence><sentence id="1383">So by being a nurse, they were hoping they wouldn't be. ( </sentence><sentence id="1384">Laughing) So they then took me to a <span class="building">sanatorium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1385">Oh, no. </sentence><sentence id="1386">Not at first. </sentence><sentence id="1387">First they took me into a <span class="building">German home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1388">And they were giving everybody the C-ration food now. </sentence><sentence id="1389">And everybody was grabbing it, and taking... We were in that <span class="building">home</span>... think we were about 10 or 15 people. </sentence><sentence id="1390">And I was the only one that turned them down, American soldiers. </sentence><sentence id="1391">And they said, "Look here, everybody's eating the food. </sentence><sentence id="1392">How come you're not eating it?" </sentence><sentence id="1393">I said, "That food is going to make me sick." </sentence><sentence id="1394">I said, "I am not used to eating that good kind of food." </sentence><sentence id="1395">They said, "Well, what do you want?" </sentence><sentence id="1396">I said, "I'd like to have some fresh vegetables." " </sentence><sentence id="1397">Where are we going to get fresh vegetables? </sentence><sentence id="1398">There's a war going on! ( </sentence><sentence id="1399">Laughing) And you want fresh vegetables!" </sentence><sentence id="1400">Well, they saw the seriousness of me, that I really wasn't going to eat that food--even though I was nothing but skin and bones. </sentence><sentence id="1401">They went to German farmers and collected potatoes and carrots. </sentence><sentence id="1402">And they brought it to me; and I had a little <span class="spatial object">pot</span>, and I boiled it. </sentence><sentence id="1403">And that's the only food I ate for about 3 weeks. </sentence><sentence id="1404">And I didn't need any medication or anything to recover. </sentence><sentence id="1405">Many of those who ate that food became sick. </sentence><sentence id="1406">Some even died. </sentence><sentence id="1407">Mainly because their system just wasn't used to it. </sentence><sentence id="1408">That little voice, again, was there: "Don't eat that food." </sentence><sentence id="1409">Now after about 3 weeks, I was able to start eating regular food. </sentence><sentence id="1410">But until the body became acclimated, then I was just eating that. </sentence><sentence id="1411">And 8 they were just [so] amazed, that I was like this American soldiers" center of attention. </sentence><sentence id="1412">They look at me. </sentence><sentence id="1413">How can somebody who is skin and bones still be alive? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1520">Q: And then you went from there... Let's see. </sentence><sentence id="1521">You were in that <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1522">Then where did you go from there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1526">A: Then they took me to...they called <span class="populated place">Garmisch-Partenkirchen</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1527">This was a <span class="building">sanitarium</span> used by the Austrians for rehabilitating people. </sentence><sentence id="1528">And they used that as a <span class="building">shelter</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1529">So they took us to a central point there; then awaiting transportation to go back <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1530">So again, when I was over there, the American doctors wanted to give me medication and all that. </sentence><sentence id="1531">And I said, "No. </sentence><sentence id="1532">I Just want to have the natural foods, and then I'll be all right." </sentence><sentence id="1533">And I didn't have to take any medication or anything. </sentence><sentence id="1534">And within three weeks, I was ready to travel. </sentence><sentence id="1535">Again! ( </sentence><sentence id="1536">Laughing) </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1548">Q: So where did you travel? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1550">A: Then from there, the American army took me uh to <span class="country">Czechoslovakia</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1551">It's called <span class="populated place">Plze_</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1552">In <span class="populated place">Plze_</span>, they...it was then that portion became...it was...it was divided in American and <span class="region">Russian zone</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1553">So I remember an American officer was saying, "Are you sure you want to go back into the <span class="region">Russian zone</span>? </sentence><sentence id="1554">Sure you don't want to stay in the <span class="region">American zone</span>? </sentence><sentence id="1555">Come..." I wouldn't even think of it. </sentence><sentence id="1556">In fact, I remember when I was in uh...recuperating in <span class="populated place">Garmisch</span>, there was somebody there from <span class="country">France</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1557">And he had a son my age; and he wanted me to come to stay with him, to live. </sentence><sentence id="1558">And there's no way. </sentence><sentence id="1559">Uh, so once we got into the <span class="region">Russian zone</span>, then it was entirely different. </sentence><sentence id="1560">We didn't get treat...any special treatment. </sentence><sentence id="1561">And as I was going to the <span class="building">train station</span> to take another <span class="spatial object">train</span>, all of a sudden I saw people...people uh there. </sentence><sentence id="1562">Yelling, shouting, throwing stones; and here they caught a Nazi. </sentence><sentence id="1563">And they're... Somebody said, "Well, why don't you stop. </sentence><sentence id="1564">And you can have revenge on them." " </sentence><sentence id="1565">No. </sentence><sentence id="1566">I want to go <span class="building">home</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1567">And that was the first. </sentence><sentence id="1568">And I had run toward the <span class="building">train station</span>; and I ran and ran, and I just missed the <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1569">It felt...1t was very depressing, because I was so anxious. </sentence><sentence id="1570">Then finally another <span class="spatial object">train</span> came and took me to <span class="country">Hungary</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1571">And <span class="country">Hungary</span>, when I walked in there...in that <span class="dlf">square</span>, it was like a million people all had converged--they're coming <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1572">And it was ironic that after I arrived, they start asking question about your age. </sentence><sentence id="1573">And was the first time I could tell what my real age (laughing) was, without having to have fear that uh something would happen. </sentence><sentence id="1574">And then, they said that it would... they didn't know how long they could...would have to wait, because there were so many people who wanted to go <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1575">Those who had survived. </sentence><sentence id="1576">And that the only way to get <span class="building">home</span> was to travel on top of the <span class="spatial object">train</span>, one of those <span class="spatial object">cattle type trains</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1577">Can you imagine the experience? </sentence><sentence id="1578">Travelling overnight when I had nothing to hold on to. </sentence><sentence id="1579">And just swinging there, going through <span class="dlf">tunnels</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1580">I was so anxious to 9 get <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1581">And finally when I got into <span class="populated place">Sighet</span>"... This was in <span class="country">Romania</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1582">It was about 15 miles from where I lived. </sentence><sentence id="1583">And this was my next point before getting <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1619">Q: So then you... Eventually, you did get <span class="building">home</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1621">A: In <span class="populated place">Sziget</span>, the only way from there to get <span class="building">home</span> was walk. </sentence><sentence id="1622">And this was at night. </sentence><sentence id="1623">And I finally got into the <span class="populated place">town</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1624">It was about 2:00 in the morning. </sentence><sentence id="1625">I was scared. </sentence><sentence id="1626">There was the Russian soldiers there. </sentence><sentence id="1627">And I didn't know what they'd do; I thought they'd shoot. </sentence><sentence id="1628">So I just stood still in those <span class="env feature">bushes</span> all night. </sentence><sentence id="1629">And I was so elated I was finally <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1630">And then the next morning, I went <span class="building">home</span> and I found that there was a Russian family living there. </sentence><sentence id="1631">They wouldn't even let me in the <span class="building">house</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1632">They said this is their <span class="building">house</span> now. </sentence><sentence id="1633">It belongs to them. </sentence><sentence id="1634">And I said, "Can I just go in and just open the <span class="dlf">door</span>?" </sentence><sentence id="1635">Because my survival was the ability that I saw myself opening the <span class="dlf">door</span> to my <span class="building">home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1636">And I just wanted to have that. </sentence><sentence id="1637">I opened the <span class="dlf">door</span>; and this was the most touching moment for me, that here is a vision that I carried with me and finally came through. </sentence><sentence id="1638">Then it entailed a scene what it's like living under the Russians. </sentence><sentence id="1639">I would lose my freedom again. </sentence><sentence id="1640">I found a cousin that survived; and uh we both decided that we are going to leave from there forever, and not...not make it our <span class="building">home</span> anymore. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1661">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="1662">So then where did you go from there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1665">A: From there, I went back to <span class="populated place">Sziget</span> again, where I came. </sentence><sentence id="1666">And I didn't know where I was going to head. </sentence><sentence id="1667">I just knew that I wanted to leave. </sentence><sentence id="1668">And I heard...word was passed on that there is a uh organization to help people to go to <span class="country">Palestine</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1669">And here I was on my own. </sentence><sentence id="1670">Nobody cared for us. </sentence><sentence id="1671">And the only way to get--we had to go to <span class="country">Hungary</span>--was by <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1672">And this time, we had to have tickets for travelling. </sentence><sentence id="1673">I didn't have any tickets. </sentence><sentence id="1674">I didn't have any money. </sentence><sentence id="1675">And I went on a <span class="spatial object">train</span>; they didn't notice me. </sentence><sentence id="1676">And when I got to a <span class="populated place">city</span>--it was probably <span class="populated place">Debrecen</span>, or something--they started checking for tickets. </sentence><sentence id="1677">It was at night, and I didn't have one. </sentence><sentence id="1678">And I ran out of the <span class="building">station</span>; and the ticket master yelled to the police, "After him! </sentence><sentence id="1679">After him!" </sentence><sentence id="1680">And I ran, and ran in a bombed out <span class="building">building</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1681">And I was there by myself. </sentence><sentence id="1682">And I said, "My God, what in the heck am I doing? </sentence><sentence id="1683">Here I was supposed to be <span class="building">home</span> free, reunited with my family. </sentence><sentence id="1684">Here I'm a fugitive, the police are after me!" </sentence><sentence id="1685">And I heard them talking: "Did you see anybody run in here? </sentence><sentence id="1686">Did you see anybody running there?" </sentence><sentence id="1687">They couldn't. </sentence><sentence id="1688">And then they finally left. </sentence><sentence id="1689">The next day, I didn't give up. ( </sentence><sentence id="1690">Laughing) Back on the <span class="spatial object">train</span> again. ( </sentence><sentence id="1691">Laughing) </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1719">Q: So that took you to where? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1721"> * Rom: <span class="populated place">Sighetul-Marma</span> _iei, or Hung: <span class="populated place">Mamarossziget</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1722">Located in <span class="country">Romania</span> near the northern </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1723"> <span class="dlf">border</span> with <span class="country">Hungary</span> and the <span class="country">Ukrainian SSR</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1724">Under Hungarian control during 1940-1944. </sentence><sentence id="1725"> 0 </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1726">A: It took me to <span class="populated place">Budapest</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1727">In <span class="populated place">Budapest</span>, I found out that there was a <span class="building">youth group</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1728">Those that were...few that survived, and others that were hidden during the war, were now decided also to leave <span class="country">Europe</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1729">And we formed what we called a "<span class="populated place">kibbutz</span>" to go to <span class="country">Palestine</span>, it was called at that time. </sentence><sentence id="1730">And after waiting for about six months over there, (excuse me) they told us that the only way we'd be able to get out from <span class="populated place">Budapest</span> is to go on <span class="spatial object">cattle train</span>, like we went to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>; because the Russians were not allowing legally. </sentence><sentence id="1731">So they had to...whatever arrangements, whoever made it didn't explain anything to me other than get on the <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1732">And...and I remember we were travelling at night, and the <span class="spatial object">train</span> going through just like in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>--cling, cling, going; cling, cling, stopping. </sentence><sentence id="1733">And just wondering if we'll ever be discovered, because we went illegally. </sentence><sentence id="1734">Finally, morning came; and they told us that we were in <span class="country">Austria</span>, in <span class="region">American zone</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1735">So we knew we were finally free. </sentence><sentence id="1736">So when we got to <span class="populated place">Vienna</span> and we stayed there about two or three days... Uh, I'm trying to think in which...there's a place that uh...very famous <span class="building">hotel</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1737">I can't think of it right now; but we stayed there about three days. </sentence><sentence id="1738">And they said we will not be able to go directly to <span class="country">Palestine</span>, because the British were blockading it. </sentence><sentence id="1739">Uh, that we'll have to go to <span class="country">Germany</span> and wait. </sentence><sentence id="1740">Talk about depression (laughing) setting in! </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1756">Q: So then you are now on the move again. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1758">A: Back on the <span class="spatial object">train</span> again! ( </sentence><sentence id="1759">Laughing) This is why I had done this story before. </sentence><sentence id="1760">I called To Hell and Freedom; and this is a continuous story where I superimpose the sounds of the <span class="spatial object">trains</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1761">Because that's what this is all--the whole story of <span class="spatial object">trains</span>, <span class="spatial object">trains</span>, travelling. </sentence><sentence id="1762">Then, when we got to <span class="country">Germany</span>, they put us into a former <span class="populated place">German military camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1763">And uh it was called <span class="populated place">Leipheim</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1764">And we were then there processed, preparing ourselves to go to <span class="country">Palestine</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1765">One, we learned military drill; because they told us that as soon as we're going to get in there, we're going to be in the fighting. </sentence><sentence id="1766">From one Hell to another Hell. </sentence><sentence id="1767">But we were not afraid, because we knew this time that we'll have to fight for our freedom. </sentence><sentence id="1768">It's not going to come easy. </sentence><sentence id="1769">And in between times--this is really ironic-- they arranged, whoever was in charge of the whole thing, for us to learn farming; trained by German farmers. </sentence><sentence id="1770">So we learned farming, learned how to plant seeds for <span class="building">farms</span>; and learning how to prepare for war again. </sentence><sentence id="1771">And we found out that after...it's almost a year waiting, tha...uh the...they would not allow legally. </sentence><sentence id="1772">They would only allow one [person] a month from our group. </sentence><sentence id="1773">From the various groups, the British would only allow so many per month. </sentence><sentence id="1774">So what we would do in the <span class="populated place">kibbutz</span> is we would put our name in our hat...in a hat. </sentence><sentence id="1775">And then the one that got pulled out, that [one] got [to go]. </sentence><sentence id="1776">I remember one, the first one that got [to go], when he arrived--he went to <span class="country">Israel</span>...he went to <span class="country">Palestine</span>, and told us how wonderful it is there. </sentence><sentence id="1777">And uh we were really eagerly looking forward to the day we would join him. </sentence><sentence id="1778">And then after about a year waiting-- frustrating, depressing, waiting--all of a sudden somebody from the <span class="building">office</span> calls me in and that somebody wants to talk to me. " </sentence><sentence id="1779">What is it about?" " </sentence><sentence id="1780">Well, do you have any relatives in <span class="country">America</span>?" </sentence><sentence id="1781">First thing, I said, "Well, I think I have an aunt. </sentence><sentence id="1782">But I don't know any of them. </sentence><sentence id="1783"> 1 Why?" " </sentence><sentence id="1784">Well, your relatives just found out about you." </sentence><sentence id="1785">I had about four aunts that I didn't know, my father's sisters. " </sentence><sentence id="1786">And they want you to go come to <span class="country">America</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1787">I said, "Oh, no, no. </sentence><sentence id="1788">Not me. </sentence><sentence id="1789">I'm... And <span class="country">America</span>'s not for me." </sentence><sentence id="1790">Okay, then they sent telegram back to <span class="country">America</span>, saying, "He doesn't want to come." </sentence><sentence id="1791">Then they sent another telegram. </sentence><sentence id="1792">They said, "Well, if you really want to go to <span class="country">Israel</span>, then it will be easier to go to <span class="country">Israel</span> from <span class="country">America</span> than from <span class="country">Germany</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1793">And I just wanted to get out of there. </sentence><sentence id="1794">I said, "Okay. </sentence><sentence id="1795">I will accept their kind offer, and I'll come to <span class="country">America</span>." </sentence><sentence id="1796">That's how I came to <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1836">Q: And where did you come to live? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1838">A: I came to <span class="populated place">New York</span>, and I stayed there for awhile. </sentence><sentence id="1839">And I lived in a small <span class="populated place">shtetl</span>; <span class="populated place">New York</span> was just overwhelming for me. </sentence><sentence id="1840">So then they...L...they sent me to <span class="populated place">Cleveland</span> when I arrived from <span class="populated place">New York</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1841">And I stayed there with the family, for a little while. </sentence><sentence id="1842">Then I started <span class="building">high school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1843">And that's when... I was one of the few, very few, of my age who made it; and when I started <span class="building">high school</span> and I... was looked at like [I] came from another world. </sentence><sentence id="1844">Because uh I was their age, and uh they were all very nice. </sentence><sentence id="1845">But they didn't even know how to approach me or ask me any questions, because everything was so fresh. </sentence><sentence id="1846">In their minds, they had just seen in the movies the horrors and these things. </sentence><sentence id="1847">So I was looked at as uh somebody who had come from another world. </sentence><sentence id="1848">You know, it was a strange experience to go to <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1849">And yet, it was a struggle; because the teachers had a struggle with what to do. </sentence><sentence id="1850">I was at an age, I was too old for <span class="building">junior high school</span> and I missed all that background in <span class="building">junior high school</span> to be in <span class="building">high school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1851">So what do they do? </sentence><sentence id="1852">They send me [to] both! ( </sentence><sentence id="1853">Laughing) To <span class="building">high school</span>, and <span class="building">junior high school</span> private tutoring. </sentence><sentence id="1854">From that, and... Talk about having a rough <span class="dlf">road</span>! </sentence><sentence id="1855">But I managed to keep up with them; and...and I finished <span class="building">high school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1856">And I was just getting on my feet, starting... starting to <span class="building">college</span>, when I get a "Dear John" letter from Uncle Sam. </sentence><sentence id="1857">That was when the Korean War was on. </sentence><sentence id="1858">That was just a joke. ( </sentence><sentence id="1859">Laughing) </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1882">Q: How old were you then? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1884">A: I was about 19. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1886">Q: OK. </sentence><sentence id="1887">So what happened then? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1890">A: Well, they said, "There's a war on, and you're of military age. </sentence><sentence id="1891">And you're going to be drafted." </sentence><sentence id="1892">And then I tried to explain to him what I just went through, that <span class="region">Hell</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1893">I told him that uh being in a <span class="populated place">camp</span> would be very detrimental for me. </sentence><sentence id="1894">Well, they were...listened and said, "Yah. </sentence><sentence id="1895">We'll give you two choices. </sentence><sentence id="1896">Either go to the draft, or go to <span class="building">jail</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1897">Which one do you want?" ( </sentence><sentence id="1898">Laughing) Very sympathetic. </sentence><sentence id="1899">Naturally, uh...I didn't want to go to <span class="building">jail</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1900">I took--I 2 may not say the better of the two, but I took one of the two. ( </sentence><sentence id="1901">Laughing) And when I arrived in that <span class="populated place">military training camp</span>... That night, it was the most gruesome, the most horrible experience of my life. </sentence><sentence id="1902">Because it brought back all of the traumatic experiences. </sentence><sentence id="1903">It was at night. </sentence><sentence id="1904">Flashlig...the lights were on the perimeter of the <span class="populated place">camp</span>, the <span class="dlf">barbed wire</span> of the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1905">And the shouting: "Get off! </sentence><sentence id="1906">Get off! </sentence><sentence id="1907">Get in there!" </sentence><sentence id="1908">You know, it was just like a repeat. </sentence><sentence id="1909">And get in there; and the first thing, that "You guys are the lowest scum on earth!" </sentence><sentence id="1910">And telling you, "We're going to make men out of you!" </sentence><sentence id="1911">And so on. </sentence><sentence id="1912">And I thought, "Here we go again." </sentence><sentence id="1913">And the next thing they do is that we're going to shave. </sentence><sentence id="1914">And I said, "Oh, no. </sentence><sentence id="1915">They're not going to do that!" </sentence><sentence id="1916">But they did it. </sentence><sentence id="1917">And to do it, I had to numb myself like I did in the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1918">All that healing that I was just going through, that they were just coming; with everything there, [it] was destroyed in that period. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1948">Q: You're talking about shaving your head? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1950">A: Shaving my head, and cutting the hair. </sentence><sentence id="1951">And just being back in a <span class="populated place">camp</span> again. </sentence><sentence id="1952">So I lived with the same survival instinct that I had to do in the <span class="populated place">camps</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1953">And it was very depressing. </sentence><sentence id="1954">It was very traumatic. </sentence><sentence id="1955">But there's no one to turn to that you can say how you really feel. </sentence><sentence id="1956">No one can really understand or relate. </sentence><sentence id="1957">They had no feeling to even think how I would feel. </sentence><sentence id="1958">And so I'm just like a <span class="spatial object">machine</span>, numb <span class="spatial object">machine</span>, going through the mechanical motions of something that I was forced into doing. </sentence><sentence id="1959">And I managed to keep up with the training, until one day they announced that part of the training exercise will be...is to go through a <span class="interior space">gas chamber</span> of tear gas. </sentence><sentence id="1960">And that was like a bolt of lighting would have struck. </sentence><sentence id="1961">Suddenly, the next day L..I started limping a little bit. </sentence><sentence id="1962">I just couldn't walk anymore. </sentence><sentence id="1963">And the limp got worse and worse. </sentence><sentence id="1964">And it got so bad that I just could not walk anymore, and my whole body became totally paralyzed. </sentence><sentence id="1965">L...I was just like a piece of wood. </sentence><sentence id="1966">I'd pick up my hand and it'd fall down. </sentence><sentence id="1967">Well, they carried me in in the <span class="spatial object">stretcher</span>, just like the kind they carried me in--a little bit fancier, but it was like in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>, it reminded me. </sentence><sentence id="1968">And the doctors started asking questions, "What happened?" </sentence><sentence id="1969">Well, after they learned of what happened, they were so upset that how could they--the military authorities--not recognize some compassion of uh helping me stay out, or do something else. </sentence><sentence id="1970">So they said they are...that I have suffered enough in my life already. </sentence><sentence id="1971">That they are now willing to give me a medical discharge, and I can go back into civilian life again. </sentence><sentence id="1972">Well, there was that little voice again. ( </sentence><sentence id="1973">Laughing) For better or worse. </sentence><sentence id="1974">And uh...I told the doctor, I said, "One." </sentence><sentence id="1975">I said, "I want to stay in, because I want to complete my military obligation. </sentence><sentence id="1976">Because I want to pay...cepay my debt to <span class="country">America</span> for liberating me. </sentence><sentence id="1977">And the other thing is," I told him, "the Nazis could not keep me down on my feet. </sentence><sentence id="1978">I walked out of <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1979">And I want to walk out with an honorable discharge, and not a medical discharge." </sentence><sentence id="1980">They were very surprised; because they said, "My God," they said, "they...there are some guys here, they'd give their right hand if they could get out. </sentence><sentence id="1981">Because you're going to be in the fighting right after you get 3 through." </sentence><sentence id="1982">But I was just numb. </sentence><sentence id="1983">I...I was just... I don't know what I was...whether it was really me saying; but I just said, "I'll make it." </sentence><sentence id="1984">And I went back in training again; and I asked them only one thing, before I went back, is to waive the requirement of having to go through that <span class="interior space">gas chamber</span> exercise. </sentence><sentence id="1985">And they said, "Okay." </sentence><sentence id="1986">And I went back training again. </sentence><sentence id="1987">And it was just like in the <span class="populated place">camps</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1988">Up in the 4:00 morning, standing roll call again.(Laughing) "You're the lowest scum on earth!" </sentence><sentence id="1989">Again, too. </sentence><sentence id="1990">Oh, no. </sentence><sentence id="1991">Here we go again. </sentence><sentence id="1992">How much more can a person take something like that? </sentence><sentence id="1993">But you become numb, you know. </sentence><sentence id="1994">You...you're not really sensitive to feelings any more. </sentence><sentence id="1995">You just...you know that you have to do that to get over to get to the next step. </sentence><sentence id="1996">And I knew, just like in the <span class="populated place">camps</span>, that they are rewards for hard work in there. </sentence><sentence id="1997">And I went and I really worked hard. </sentence><sentence id="1998">Not only in physical training in the military, but we had to do a lot of training we had to learn from books--tactics, manuevers. </sentence><sentence id="1999">And I made up my mind that I wanted to be on top. </sentence><sentence id="2000">And we finished...we were like a hundred and fifty of us; and I finished in the top three on the 150. </sentence><sentence id="2001">And then, because of that, they sent me for special <span class="building">military intelligence training school</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2055">Q: What happened with the <span class="building">school</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2057">A: Well, uh...when--ironic--when I finished and they sent me out to the <span class="building">school</span>, they...uh they made me in charge of the group of the... They gave me in charge of the record. </sentence><sentence id="2058">And I had no idea why, really, I had all those problems from the...from what caused the paralysis. </sentence><sentence id="2059">And since I was in charge of the records, I looked up...I was able to look and see. </sentence><sentence id="2060">They wouldn't tell me why it was. </sentence><sentence id="2061">They just said... And then I learned that it was because of that. </sentence><sentence id="2062">Because I didn't understand yet all this what's going on inside the mind. </sentence><sentence id="2063">I knew it was from that, but I really did not know the details of it. </sentence><sentence id="2064">So this kind of helped me uh understand myself a little better. </sentence><sentence id="2065">So then, when we got into training and I finished, I was almost a year in communications intelligence; because what they trained us for is to be <span class="dlf">front line</span> person for the war, to report what's going on for the <span class="spatial object">airplanes</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2066">It was in the <span class="building">Air Force</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2067">And then after I finished training and they sent me to the <span class="region">South</span> for more advanced training; and then they sort of divided up. </sentence><sentence id="2068">Half of us went to Europe, and the other half went to <span class="country">Korea</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2069">Fortunately, my name--because it was alphabetical--they took the first half of the alphabet list, they sent to <span class="country">Europe</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2070">So it was a little bit of luck there, because if I had gotten into <span class="country">Korea</span> I would have been sent... My function was the training to be a <span class="dlf">front line</span> observer like. </sentence><sentence id="2071">So when they sent me to Europe--they didn't say where--when I got to Europe, they said I'm going to be sent to <span class="country">Germany</span>. ( </sentence><sentence id="2072">Laughing) And ironically, when there I was...I was numbed again. </sentence><sentence id="2073">I said, "There is one thing that I'm gonna do...want to do. </sentence><sentence id="2074">Is I want to finish my military obligation, and I want to visit <span class="country">Palestine</span>." </sentence><sentence id="2075">Because when I left that group in <span class="country">Germany</span> in 1946, I made a commitment that someday I'll look them up. </sentence><sentence id="2076">And so I saved up all my military leave time, and uh used it up to go to Europe [NB: <span class="country">Israel</span>]. </sentence><sentence id="2077">It was a...as I'm talking, there was a little incident that is ...happened in <span class="country">Germany</span> that I thought it would be worthwhile sharing with you. </sentence><sentence id="2078">Is...uh part of my job was also delivering supplies to the <span class="region">area</span> where we were 4 stand...where we stayed, in the <span class="env feature">mountains</span> there. </sentence><sentence id="2079">And once when I was driving--this was a real <span class="spatial object">big-semi truck</span> that I was driving--and it was really rainy, very slippery. </sentence><sentence id="2080">As I was going up the <span class="env feature">mountain</span>, I was going...and all of a sudden, as I was going downwards, I see a group of civilians right in the middle of the <span class="dlf">road</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2081">I didn't know what happened. </sentence><sentence id="2082">I slam on the brakes and my whole <span class="spatial object">truck</span> went out of control. </sentence><sentence id="2083">And the civilians scattering all over the place. </sentence><sentence id="2084">And here I am fighting to bring the <span class="spatial object">truck</span> under control. </sentence><sentence id="2085">And all of a sudden, finally, I was lucky. </sentence><sentence id="2086">The <span class="spatial object">truck</span> went a little uphill climb, and it came to a stop. </sentence><sentence id="2087">And all of a sudden, the German civilians were came and all around the <span class="spatial object">truck</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2088">So since I could speak German, I asked if I did any harm or any damage when this... Because I didn't know. </sentence><sentence id="2089">They said no. </sentence><sentence id="2090">Uh, then I said, "Okay. </sentence><sentence id="2091">Why don't you just move out, and I want to keep going." " </sentence><sentence id="2092">No." </sentence><sentence id="2093">They took ... And they had a <span class="spatial object">truck</span>, a small <span class="spatial object">truck</span>; and they parked it right in front of mine. </sentence><sentence id="2094">They weren't going to let me go, and they wouldn't tell me what uh it's all about. </sentence><sentence id="2095">And I figured ... Well, I took the <span class="spatial object">truck</span> in gear and started pushing that other <span class="spatial object">truck</span> off the <span class="dlf">road</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2096">And they were trying to prevent me from doing... And all of a sudden, I see a German comes up and with a gun. </sentence><sentence id="2097">Yells, "Halt!" </sentence><sentence id="2098">And that was... I had a gun, too. </sentence><sentence id="2099">We were given it to protect ourself. </sentence><sentence id="2100">All the fury that ever came out... Because I didn't want to, before, intermingle with anything; because I knew I'm there to do my job. </sentence><sentence id="2101">I yelled out...back at him, that he was so shocked. </sentence><sentence id="2102">Here a American soldier is yelling at him in German. </sentence><sentence id="2103">He didn't know what to say. </sentence><sentence id="2104">He said, "Raus!" </sentence><sentence id="2105">And I said, "I didn't do any harm. </sentence><sentence id="2106">I didn't do any damage to anything, and I'm not going to get out." </sentence><sentence id="2107">And he saw the seriousness on my face, and he saw... And he reminded me of that Nazi Commandant, and...that in <span class="populated place">Reichenbach</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2108">I mean, here...in <span class="populated place">Reichenbach</span>, being if it was like that, I wouldn't have said one word. </sentence><sentence id="2109">And here, there were all kinds of witnesses around. </sentence><sentence id="2110">There were two in the front. </sentence><sentence id="2111">And he saw that it was a good chance that he could have died, too, if he did something. </sentence><sentence id="2112">And I that felt...I said, "I'm not going to let go." </sentence><sentence id="2113">I felt, and a thought came to me, "Here I came as a...to keep the peace, and I could end up dying." </sentence><sentence id="2114">And he saw the seriousness there was. </sentence><sentence id="2115">And he was looking around and he was thinking (laughing) that maybe (laughing) it could happen to him. </sentence><sentence id="2116">And he put the gun back in his <span class="spatial object">holster</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2117">And I asked him, "What happened? </sentence><sentence id="2118">Why...why all this happened? </sentence><sentence id="2119">What's going on." </sentence><sentence id="2120">He said [that] ahead of me, there happened to be an American soldier was driving [who] inadvertently killed a German civilian. </sentence><sentence id="2121">So the civilians were harassing the American troops. </sentence><sentence id="2122">Or anybody that come down. </sentence><sentence id="2123">And be like in the middle of the <span class="dlf">road</span>, and the person go out of control. </sentence><sentence id="2124">And then they'd run away. </sentence><sentence id="2125">And I just happen to be in the <span class="dlf">road</span> again. ( </sentence><sentence id="2126">Laughing) And what did he do? </sentence><sentence id="2127">Three weeks later, I get called in by the commander from the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2128">He says, "Dave, I just got a report that you killed a German civilian." </sentence><sentence id="2129">Of course, I had the witness and told the story. </sentence><sentence id="2130">He was so angry of what that German policeman did, trying... because of what I did [that] he wrote to the mayor of that <span class="populated place">town</span>, telling that this is not <span class="country">Nazi Germany</span> anymore. </sentence><sentence id="2131">And so that's when that ended. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2207">Q: Okay, then, right after... Then, after you completed your service in <span class="country">Germany</span>, you came back to the <span class="country">United States</span>? </sentence><sentence id="2208"> 5 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2211">A: I went for that... I told you about that visit to <span class="country">Palestine</span>--it was <span class="country">Israel</span>, in 1956. </sentence><sentence id="2212">And after I got back, I went back to civilian life, and tried one more time. ( </sentence><sentence id="2213">Laughing) So then I went to <span class="building">school of engineering</span>, since I was in communications engineering. </sentence><sentence id="2214">And I went and also got a job, working in the day and going to <span class="building">school</span> at night. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2219">Q: OK. </sentence><sentence id="2220">How did you end up in <span class="populated place">Detroit</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2223">A: Well, this <span class="building">company</span> I stayed in <span class="populated place">Cleveland</span> that I worked for, uh transferred me from <span class="populated place">Cleveland</span> to <span class="populated place">Detroit</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2224">And that's... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2227">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="2228">Thanks very much. </sentence><sentence id="2229">I think we went through the whole thing. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2233">A: Yah, it's... I think that uh we can all learn from what has happened, that... The things that I try to emphasize, as I teach it in the <span class="building">schools</span>, is to...for the...those who are involved in teaching education to teach the youth that this is not a one-time happening. </sentence><sentence id="2234">That we must understand ourselves first. </sentence><sentence id="2235">That we have to understand that--and this is difficult to communicate--that every human being is capable of carrying out horrors and atrocities. </sentence><sentence id="2236">Because there were some uh victims in the <span class="populated place">camps</span>, who became Kapos, that were more brutal than the Nazis. </sentence><sentence id="2237">Because they wanted to have favors. </sentence><sentence id="2238">And then there were some guards, who did...all they did is guard. </sentence><sentence id="2239">They did not uh actually uh abuse people. </sentence><sentence id="2240">In fact, as I look back, there was one incident in <span class="populated place">Reichenbach</span> that happened that I was working in a <span class="building">woman's compound</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2241">And there were uh newly arrived women in that <span class="populated place">camp</span>, who saw me uh working there. </sentence><sentence id="2242">And was...must have been a mother. </sentence><sentence id="2243">And she says, "<span class="building">Kinderle</span>." ( </sentence><sentence id="2244">Beckoning with his arm) I turn around. " </sentence><sentence id="2245">You! </sentence><sentence id="2246">I got some food for you." </sentence><sentence id="2247">I said... She says, "Come on! </sentence><sentence id="2248">Come on! </sentence><sentence id="2249">The guard is not looking now." </sentence><sentence id="2250">So I ran to the <span class="dlf">fence</span> quickly, and she gave me some bread, and I ran back to the detail...work detail. </sentence><sentence id="2251">And there was a guard coming [who] saw me. </sentence><sentence id="2252">And that was it. </sentence><sentence id="2253">Once you did that, that was the end. </sentence><sentence id="2254">And he said...it was uh one thing...once you were caught, it was off to a <span class="dlf">wall</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2255">It was traditional they take you to a <span class="dlf">wall</span> with a stick; and you got the stick and picked it up and walking to the <span class="dlf">wall</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2256">And I prepared myself. </sentence><sentence id="2257">And all of a sudden, just before we got there, he stopped and he asked me how old I was. </sentence><sentence id="2258">And here was a little voice that said... For the first time, I had to make a decision. </sentence><sentence id="2259">If I told him my real age, I knew I was gonna... If I told him the truth that was my age, then I knew that that was the end; because he would turn me in. </sentence><sentence id="2260">There was a voice saying, "This time, tell what your age is." </sentence><sentence id="2261">I told him that I am 13. </sentence><sentence id="2262">He looked at me. </sentence><sentence id="2263">He says, "Get back to work!" </sentence><sentence id="2264">And I was expecting, after that incident happened, that he would turn me in. </sentence><sentence id="2265">And he never turned me in. </sentence><sentence id="2266">Strange things happen. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2301">Q: So you gave the right answer that time. </sentence><sentence id="2302"> 6 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2305">A: Why I did, I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="2306">It...it just... You...you're faced with a split decision. </sentence><sentence id="2307">You don't know who's telling you to do what. </sentence><sentence id="2308">You just...and then you... I know if I had have said 16, that would be the end. </sentence><sentence id="2309">And I took a chance, [a] risk, saying that I was 13. </sentence><sentence id="2310">And... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2317">Q: Dave, I want to thank you. </sentence><sentence id="2318">It was a terrific interview. </sentence><sentence id="2319">You really expressed yourself well. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2323">A: Thank you very much. </sentence><sentence id="2324">And thank you for inviting me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2327">Q: I think that there were some wonderful things that you brought up, and you brought out some new facts and things. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2329">A: I hope that what I shared will be of benefit to others. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2331">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="2332">Thanks a lot. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="2335"> TECHNICAL CONVERSATION 7 PHOTOGRAPHS & OBJECTS () David's grandparents and aunt in an <span class="spatial object">automobile</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2336">Taken in <span class="populated place">Bochov</span> in 1937, when his aunt returned from the <span class="country">America</span> to get married. ( </sentence><sentence id="2337">2) David's father, Abraham Bergman. </sentence><sentence id="2338">Circa 1920-1922. ( </sentence><sentence id="2339">3) Three children: David's older sister, Sarah; David (then age 5); David's younger brother Mendel. </sentence><sentence id="2340">Taken behind the <span class="building">family home</span> in <span class="populated place">Bochov</span>, circa 1936. </sentence><sentence id="2341">This is the only picture of the three children together which survives. ( </sentence><sentence id="2342">4) ID papers, with photo, from <span class="populated place">Leipheim DP Camp</span>, 1946. </sentence><sentence id="2343">Shows circular stamp: "<span class="populated place">UNRRA</span>, <span class="region">American Zone</span>, <span class="populated place">Leipheim</span>." ( </sentence><sentence id="2344">5) David and his best friend from <span class="populated place">Bochov</span>, 1946. </sentence><sentence id="2345">His friend (no name given), who is the same age as David, survived the war in hiding. ( </sentence><sentence id="2346">6) David in a USAF flight suit, 1952. </sentence><sentence id="2347">This photograph was taken just after the incident concerning <span class="interior space">gas chamber</span> training, during which David had lost some weight. </sentence><sentence id="2348">He appears quite thin here, but says he quickly recovered after he was told he would not have to endure the tear gas training. ( </sentence><sentence id="2349">7) Wooden clogs, of the type prisoners were forced to wear in <span class="populated place">labor camps</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2350">These have the wooden bottom and leather top. </sentence><sentence id="2351">They have heavy nails or rivets in the bottom, and were painful to wear. </sentence><sentence id="2352">This pair was given to David by a friend who was a combat artist. </sentence><sentence id="2353">After the war, this friend found the <span class="spatial object">clogs</span> at <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="2354"> </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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