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layout: transcript |
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interviewee: ruth none borsos |
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rg_number: rg-50.030.0035 |
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pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0035_trs_en.pdf |
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ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504539 |
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gender: f |
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birth_date: 1923-10-15 |
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birth_year: 1923.0 |
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place_of_birth: frankfurt |
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country: germany |
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experience_group: survivor |
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ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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ghetto: none |
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camp(s)_encyclopedia: bergen-belsen |
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camp: bergen-belsen, westerbork |
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non_ss_camp: none |
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region: none |
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needs_research: checked |
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data_entry: gg |
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accession: 1990.417.1 |
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revisit: none |
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tags: transcripts |
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<body><dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1">RUTH BORSOS July 3, 1990 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3">Q: Tell us your name and where you were born. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="5">A: My name is Ruth Borsos. </sentence><sentence id="6">I -- my maiden name was Moser, and I was born in <span class="populated place">Frankfurt</span>, <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="9">Q: And when? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="11">A: Oh, when -- in 1923, the 15th of October. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="13">Q: Would you tell us a little of your family life? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="15">A: OK. </sentence><sentence id="16">Sure. </sentence><sentence id="17">I had a rather normal childhood. </sentence><sentence id="18">I grew up in a middle-class family and my paternal grandparents lived very close to us and so did my maternal grandparents. </sentence><sentence id="19">And I went -- started to go to <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="20">It was a <span class="building">public school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="21">Jewish children went there, like any other children of the <span class="populated place">neighborhood</span> and in 1933 it was the time that Hitler came to power. </sentence><sentence id="22">Things started to change radically. </sentence><sentence id="23">Nearly overnight, when we came back to <span class="building">school</span> we were segregated in a sense that suddenly all the children knew who are the Jews and who are not the Jews, because we were received with words of "dirty Jew." </sentence><sentence id="24">They started to throw rocks at us. </sentence><sentence id="25">We had to -- every child had to learn to sing the Nazi hymn and -- but soon thereafter we were forbidden -- the Jewish children were forbidden to sing the Nazi hymn, so we were segregated and we felt it all the way from every morning that we came to <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="26">It was towards the end of the <span class="building">elementary school</span> years that my parents took me out of the <span class="building">school</span> and entered me in a special <span class="building">Jewish school</span> with many other children who left the <span class="building">public schools</span>. </sentence><sentence id="27">And I passed a few years in the special <span class="building">Jewish school</span>, then went on to the higher <span class="building">Jewish high school</span> and stayed there until 1938, and in 1938 the pogroms against the Jews of <span class="country">Germany</span> started. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="41">Q: Could you describe those pogroms? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="43">A: Sure. </sentence><sentence id="44">The pogroms were only an excuse of what had happened. </sentence><sentence id="45">A young Jew in <span class="populated place">Paris</span> was very aggravated because his parents had been sent to <span class="country">Poland</span> and he took revenge by shooting a German diplomat. </sentence><sentence id="46">And, as you might know, in November the 9th, 1938, the famous Kristallnacht" broke out and it was because as a revenge, as a retaliation against the Jews, because this man had murdered a German diplomat. </sentence><sentence id="47">But what I know was that <span class="building">Jewish stores</span> were attacked. </sentence><sentence id="48">They were raided. </sentence><sentence id="49">The <span class="building">synagogues</span> were burning. </sentence><sentence id="50">They were raided. " </sentence><sentence id="51">Crystal Night (German); Night of Broken Glass. </sentence><sentence id="52"> People stole, demolished and in general most Jewish males were picked up and sent to a <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="53">The duration during that time in the <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> was relatively short from what happen -- will happen later on. </sentence><sentence id="54">After approximately two weeks most people were sent back to their <span class="building">homes</span>. </sentence><sentence id="55">Now this was in "38. </sentence><sentence id="56">Already between "33 and "38 a lot of Jews had lost their civil rights. </sentence><sentence id="57">As for instance my father, who was a lawyer, he was already debarred. </sentence><sentence id="58">He could no longer go to the <span class="building">courts</span> and he -- doctors had lost their privileges in <span class="building">hospitals</span>. </sentence><sentence id="59">Actors could no longer act on the, on the public stages, and so forth and so on. </sentence><sentence id="60">Also in 1935 with the Nuremberg laws, a lot of discrimination against Jews occurred. </sentence><sentence id="61">There was no longer inter-marriage possible. </sentence><sentence id="62">There was no longer relationship with non-Jews possible. </sentence><sentence id="63">You couldn't even visit a <span class="building">Christian home</span>. </sentence><sentence id="64">You no longer could have a maid. </sentence><sentence id="65">If you had one who was -- had to be over 45 years of age, because I think the Germans were horrified at the thought that their German race could be possibly defamed by some act. </sentence><sentence id="66">Anyway also just before that time, during all these years between "33 and "38, I recall for instance that a friend of mine who always played with me, who we always together -- one day she came and said, "I can no longer come to your <span class="building">home</span>." </sentence><sentence id="67">And I said, "How come?" </sentence><sentence id="68">And she said, "Well, my father told me I'm no longer allowed to play with you because you're Jewish." </sentence><sentence id="69">So this friend disappeared and I never saw her again. </sentence><sentence id="70">Other friends, Jewish friends, Jewish children who lived in my <span class="populated place">neighborhood</span>, left from one day to the next because they immigrated maybe with their parents or they went across the <span class="dlf">border</span> to another <span class="country">country</span>. </sentence><sentence id="71">Whatever, it was a terrible time of real turmoil and repression, and in 1938 after the Kristallnacht, my family in <span class="country">Holland</span> tried to get me to <span class="country">Holland</span> with a <span class="spatial object">children's transport</span>. </sentence><sentence id="72">My father -- my parents were divorced at that time already and my father was traveling in Europe and in <span class="country">Israel</span> and trying to see how they could establish a new place where we could live. </sentence><sentence id="73">When he came back from <span class="country">Palestine</span> in 19-- I believe it was 1932, he proposed to the family that we should leave immediately but my mother did not want to and she refused to go. </sentence><sentence id="74">So when he went later to the different <span class="country">countries</span> to see where he could get a permit to stay, it became already very, very difficult because each <span class="country">country</span> only let in so many so-called "foreigners." </sentence><sentence id="75">In 1938 at that time he had a permit to stay for six months in <span class="country">Holland</span>, and when I did not come with the children's <span class="spatial object">transport</span> because my papers were lost, he and my uncle went to the Dutch authorities. </sentence><sentence id="76">My uncle was a very energetic man who really pulled his weight -- went into a meeting and said he has to have papers to get me out of the <span class="country">country</span> and into <span class="country">Holland</span>, and he did get a permit. </sentence><sentence id="77">And he called us at night and my mother took me to the <span class="dlf">German border</span> and we -- my uncle's chauffeur was coming across the <span class="dlf">border</span> and picked me up and withered me through the German and the Dutch border guards and helped me cross the <span class="dlf">border</span> and so I came to <span class="country">Holland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="78">Now in 1938 life was pretty normal in <span class="country">Holland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="79">But we were, of course, strangers and first stayed with my family in <span class="populated place">Tilburg</span>, and later on I came to live in <span class="populated place">Amsterdam</span>. </sentence><sentence id="80">But, but because of the work of my father --he was very rarely there and we lived in a <span class="building">boarding house</span> and I -- there was really no good <span class="building">home</span> life to speak of. </sentence><sentence id="81">And we always played with the idea that we had to leave <span class="country">Holland</span> because there was really no good future for us. </sentence><sentence id="82"> My father worked at that time with the Dutch authorities who dealt -- Dutch Jewish authorities, who dealt with resettling refugees, Jewish refugees. </sentence><sentence id="83">He also played a role at that time in as a Dutch delegate to the <span class="spatial object">ship</span> <span class="spatial object">St. Louis</span>, who was not allowed to land in <span class="country">Cuba</span>. </sentence><sentence id="84">And he went to, at that time, to <span class="country">Belgium</span> to help rescue the people and settle in so many only. </sentence><sentence id="85">Each <span class="country">country</span> tried to take a number of people. </sentence><sentence id="86">And <span class="country">Holland</span> took some. </sentence><sentence id="87">And so he was involved with this work, so he was really very rarely there. </sentence><sentence id="88">And towards 1940 we were able to get a permit to get to <span class="country">America</span> and in May 9th, 1940 we took the few belongings we had brought out of <span class="country">Germany</span>, we took those and took them to the <span class="spatial object">boat</span> in, in <span class="populated place">Rotterdam</span>, and we were supposed to sail with the <span class="spatial object">Veendam</span> the next morning, May the 10th, 1940. </sentence><sentence id="89">May, May 10th, 1940 came. </sentence><sentence id="90">I woke up in the morning and I hear these funny little sounds and I look out and I see puffy little clouds in the <span class="env feature">sky</span> and all the <span class="building">Dutch houses</span>, <span class="building">apartment houses</span>, have very flat <span class="dlf">roofs</span> and I see people on the <span class="dlf">roof</span>, and I wonder what's going on. </sentence><sentence id="91">Anyway I went up on the <span class="dlf">roof</span> and I see and I was told that <span class="spatial object">German planes</span> were flying overhead and they had invaded <span class="country">Holland</span> during the night. </sentence><sentence id="92">And I woke up my dad and I said, "I don't think we'll be going to <span class="country">America</span>." </sentence><sentence id="93">Well, that was it, we didn't go. </sentence><sentence id="94">And 19- May 10th, this happened, and five days later the Germans capitulated -- I mean the Dutch capitulated and the Germans occupied <span class="country">Holland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="95">And pretty soon the German occupation started of <span class="country">Holland</span> and of course with the occupation, all the repressions against the Jews started, started out. </sentence><sentence id="96">I cannot remember exactly how it started out but what happened was that you no longer could pursue your work in, in <span class="building">non-Jewish businesses</span>. </sentence><sentence id="97">Slowly things were taken away from you. </sentence><sentence id="98">Your civil rights were taken slowly away. </sentence><sentence id="99">It was really a repeat of what happ-- had happened in <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="100">You had to wear a yellow star. </sentence><sentence id="101">Pretty soon you could no longer shop in the <span class="building">stores</span>. </sentence><sentence id="102">There were certain hours only between three and five in the afternoon. </sentence><sentence id="103">You could no longer go out as much as you wanted at night because you had to be in. </sentence><sentence id="104">There was a curfew. </sentence><sentence id="105">You couldn't even sit -- if you had a <span class="interior space">garden</span>, you couldn't even sit outside in your <span class="dlf">garden</span> after the curfew hours, so --. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="169">Q: What was this like for you as a young person? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="171">A: Well, it wasn't very easy to grow up as a young person like that. </sentence><sentence id="172">It, it was a very bad existence and the trouble was that each day something new happened and something more repressive happened. </sentence><sentence id="173">And the thoughts were always in the mind, "How can we escape from this and how -- what can we do?" </sentence><sentence id="174">The only possibility would have been to go <span class="interior space">underground</span>. </sentence><sentence id="175">But that was very difficult and it was very dangerous because you had to have the right connection to people who would hide you <span class="interior space">underground</span>. </sentence><sentence id="176">You had to have the right accommodations for <span class="interior space">underground</span>, because you couldn't live freely because we all had an accent. </sentence><sentence id="177">So, people who had an accent were immediately prone to be discovered, even with a false passport or false ID paper or whatever it is. </sentence><sentence id="178">So for a long time we were thinking how we could do that, how we could possibly find a <span class="building">refuge</span> this way. </sentence><sentence id="179">There were people hidden on the <span class="interior space">attic</span>. </sentence><sentence id="180">There were people hidden in <span class="interior space">cellars</span>. </sentence><sentence id="181">There were people hidden in <span class="interior space">back rooms</span> for years and years by Dutch peasants, by Dutch peo-people of good will and good heart. </sentence><sentence id="182">There were also people who were betrayed, but we really never reached that stage because it was not possible. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="195">Q: Had you made friends in <span class="country">Holland</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="197">A: I had a few friends. </sentence><sentence id="198">I did not have very many friends. </sentence><sentence id="199">I --- most of my friends were refugees themselves. </sentence><sentence id="200">I did go to a <span class="building">school</span> for refugees, a <span class="building">special school</span> because of the language problems but we did get some instructions and I finished <span class="building">high school</span> in <span class="country">Holland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="201">And my father worked at that time, as I had mentioned before, for a Dutch -- for a Jewish refugee organization which later on turned partially into the <span class="building">Jewish Council</span> and I later myself had a small job in the <span class="building">sewing division</span>, making clothes for people, for German people really as far as I know. </sentence><sentence id="202">We never knew exactly for whom we were working and so I had a -- also want to mention that during that during all this period I mentioned before, I believe it was in 1942, that we all had to wear a yellow star. </sentence><sentence id="203">This yellow star had to be on the left side of your clothing. </sentence><sentence id="204">If you wore three layers that day it had to be on three layers of your clothing. </sentence><sentence id="205">It had to be attached. </sentence><sentence id="206">There was -- you were not allowed to be able to put one finger through the behind between your clothing and the star. </sentence><sentence id="207">It had to be sewn on properly, and if somebody saw you on the <span class="dlf">street</span>, you had to have ID papers, the proper ID papers with a "J" in it and your yellow star and if something was wrong, you were arrested. </sentence><sentence id="208">And you didn't come back or maybe you were arrested and were sent on somewhere right away. </sentence><sentence id="209">Well, also during that time, as I had mentioned to you before, during the night many times the, the <span class="building">SS</span>? </sentence><sentence id="210">or the police -- not the Dutch police but the German patrol, police or whatever their designation was -- came to various <span class="building">homes</span>, looked for Jews, wanted to see their ID papers, wanted to see whether they had special permits to stay away from being sent for relocation in the <span class="region">east</span>, and these special stamps were sometimes that you had a -- you did quote, unquote, "a very important work" or that you had the possibility of getting a visa to get out of <span class="country">Holland</span> via <span class="country">Portugal</span> or that maybe you had instead of four Jewish grandparents you had only three Jewish grandparents. </sentence><sentence id="211">There were a variety of little stamps, which were possible in your ID card which would delay your <span class="spatial object">transport</span>, but it didn't prevent it. </sentence><sentence id="212">So we were -- I personally was arrested at least three times during the night, taken to a special place which usually was the place which at one time was a <span class="building">Jewish theater</span>. </sentence><sentence id="213">And you never really knew whether you would be released again, what would happen to you the next day. </sentence><sentence id="214">We were sitting around, we were wondering and worrying what would happen, but on July the 6th in 1943 was the biggest razzia, repression against the Jews. </sentence><sentence id="215">They, they -- big <span class="spatial object">cars</span> with SS were driving through the different <span class="dlf">streets</span> with the bullhorns on top of the <span class="spatial object">cars</span> and they were calling all the Jews to leave their <span class="building">buildings</span>. </sentence><sentence id="216">Now for weeks and weeks and months and > Schutzstaffeln [Protection Squads] (German) months we knew that this day will come one day and we always had prepared ourselves in a sense by having a <span class="spatial object">backpack</span> ready with a few belongings to take with us. </sentence><sentence id="217">We knew that we were not allowed to take many things, but they would allow us one change, one sweater, a toothbrush, a pair of extra shoes, an overall and maybe a coat. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="240">Q: How did you know that? </sentence><sentence id="241">How did you know that would happen? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="244">A: It was known through the <span class="populated place">Jewish community</span>. </sentence><sentence id="245">It was made known from the Germans to the <span class="populated place">Jewish community</span> that this is what is allowed. </sentence><sentence id="246">There is not allowed anymore. </sentence><sentence id="247">So you knew that your day will come and you didn't know when and you knew that this is if you ever have to go away, this is what you can take with you. </sentence><sentence id="248">That day when we were all called out of the <span class="building">houses</span>, we -- they marched us from wherever you lived to the central point. </sentence><sentence id="249">It could be around the corner. </sentence><sentence id="250">It could be a half an hour away, whatever it was, we were gathered all around. </sentence><sentence id="251">We are standing in the <span class="interior space">courtyard</span> of the <span class="building">building</span> for a whole day. </sentence><sentence id="252">We did not know what was going to happen to us. </sentence><sentence id="253">They didn't give us any food, no water, anything. </sentence><sentence id="254">Well, towards late afternoon one of the highest SS was coming to the <span class="building">building</span>, and he was doing the selecting of who would be sent away and who would not be sent away. </sentence><sentence id="255">And one by one we were called up to appear before him to show him our papers and he would decide. </sentence><sentence id="256">When my father's turn came, he said to him, "Mr. Moser, you have to decide whether you and your daughter will go on <span class="spatial object">transport</span> or whether you will stay behind." </sentence><sentence id="257">He would not dispense both of us from <span class="spatial object">transport</span> but he would -- considered my father to stay behind, so my dad decided that he would stay behind, hoping that, you know, he could do something for me, he would be able to get me out of this again. </sentence><sentence id="258">And we were -- those who had to leave right away were reassembled and marching in fours down the <span class="dlf">street</span> and I looked back and I saw my dad looking out the <span class="dlf">window</span> as, as we were leaving that <span class="dlf">street</span> and that <span class="building">building</span>. </sentence><sentence id="259">We were marched towards the <span class="building">stadium</span> where a big mass of people were already coming from the various <span class="populated place">neighborhoods</span> in <span class="populated place">Amsterdam</span>, reassembled in that <span class="building">stadium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="260">And in that <span class="building">stadium</span> were rows of <span class="spatial object">tables</span> with Germans sitting who were registering us by name, by ID, taking everything we had like watches, rings, whatever we had of any little value -- took it away from us. </sentence><sentence id="261">But they left us with that <span class="spatial object">rucksack</span>. </sentence><sentence id="262">They went through it, too, mind you. </sentence><sentence id="263">They looked through what was in it. </sentence><sentence id="264">So, then in <span class="populated place">Amsterdam</span> at that time the <span class="spatial object">trams</span> were running but there was -- that morning there was absolutely nobody on the <span class="dlf">street</span>. </sentence><sentence id="265">They put us into the <span class="spatial object">trams</span> and the <span class="spatial object">trams</span> started to roll and we did not know -- we knew that we are going on transport. </sentence><sentence id="266">We knew that we were going to go to the <span class="populated place">camp</span> in <span class="country">Holland</span> which called <span class="populated place">Westerbork</span>, but we did not know by what means we were going. </sentence><sentence id="267">They took us with the <span class="spatial object">trams</span> and these <span class="spatial object">tramways</span> were accompanied on each side by huge <span class="spatial object">limousines</span> in which all filled with SS just so that nobody could leave the <span class="spatial object">tram</span>, nobody could escape. </sentence><sentence id="268">They were running over the <span class="dlf">pavement</span>, over the <span class="dlf">sidewalks</span> of the <span class="dlf">street</span> and if there were any people they had to flee up into their <span class="interior space">apartments</span> and <span class="building">houses</span> and, and <span class="dlf">roadways</span> -- I mean <span class="dlf">entrances</span> so that they wouldn't be just crushed on by, by these SS people. </sentence><sentence id="269">But we came to a small <span class="building">railroad station</span> in <span class="populated place">Amsterdam</span> where the <span class="spatial object">cattle trains</span> were already waiting for us. </sentence><sentence id="270">Germans were standing around with big -- what do you call it? </sentence><sentence id="271">Big dogs, shepherd dogs, and pacing, pacing up and down the <span class="dlf">quays</span>, loading the people into the <span class="spatial object">cattle cars</span> and I sort of twaddled around, I was trying to hide first between some <span class="dlf">lamp posts</span>, a little <span class="building">house</span> and so forth, and I was seeing whether it's possible for me to escape from this, but I really wouldn't -- didn't know because even if I were able to leave that <span class="building">railroad station</span>, where was I going to go since I didn't know before where. </sentence><sentence id="272">But it was just sort of an instinct, "Maybe they can't catch me." </sentence><sentence id="273">Well they did and of course I was one of them in the <span class="spatial object">cattle trucks</span> and we went. </sentence><sentence id="274">They closed the <span class="dlf">doors</span> and we still were in a fairly cooperative spirit, you know. </sentence><sentence id="275">We try to sort of console our -- one another and late at night we arrived in the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="276">We couldn't even really see the <span class="populated place">camp</span> -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="310">Q: Tell me a little bit about the trip, what it was like on the <span class="spatial object">train</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="312">A: That, that trip, contrary to the trip in the <span class="spatial object">cattle truck</span> to <span class="populated place">Bergen-Belsen</span>, that trip -- I remember there were a lot of young people. </sentence><sentence id="313">I didn't know anybody. </sentence><sentence id="314">But I know there were a lot of young people in that particular <span class="interior space">compartment</span> I was in. </sentence><sentence id="315">The ride was maybe three hours. </sentence><sentence id="316">Contrary to the other trip I took -- for days in a <span class="spatial object">cattle truck</span> -- there was a much better mood than there was later on. </sentence><sentence id="317">You had lived so long with the knowledge that you would be picked up one day, that you would be sent away one day, that you would go to <span class="populated place">Westerbork</span> one day, that now it happened. </sentence><sentence id="318">It was done. </sentence><sentence id="319">You were on the way. </sentence><sentence id="320">I mean it was nearly like no longer -- you didn't have to expect it any longer. </sentence><sentence id="321">It was there, which is really a terrible thing, but, but it was nearly like a relief because they couldn't -- they picked you up, but you knew this was it, it couldn't happen over and over again. </sentence><sentence id="322">So when we arrived finally at night in the <span class="populated place">camp</span>, it was already dark. </sentence><sentence id="323">We, we didn't know exactly how that <span class="populated place">camp</span> would look. </sentence><sentence id="324">We knew it smelled when we arrived there. </sentence><sentence id="325">It, it wasn't a very pleasant smell. </sentence><sentence id="326">And we were given -- we had to go through another registration, mind you. </sentence><sentence id="327">That was the second one that day, but that was more that like a receipt, "Yes, these people have arriven," you know. </sentence><sentence id="328">And we were, were told to go to various <span class="building">barracks</span>. </sentence><sentence id="329">We came there. </sentence><sentence id="330">There was no light in front of it. </sentence><sentence id="331">There was only this terrible stench, and you entered the <span class="building">barrack</span> and you barely saw anything. </sentence><sentence id="332">You, you saw a lot of things that you knew something -- there was a lot of stuff toward the <span class="interior space">ceiling</span> but you didn't really quite realize what it was. </sentence><sentence id="333">Your eyes had to adjust for a long time, and you wanted to find -- what do you call it? </sentence><sentence id="334">Can you cut it a minute? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="358">Q: A <span class="spatial object">cot</span>? </sentence><sentence id="359">A <span class="spatial object">bed</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="362">A: A <span class="spatial object">cot</span>. </sentence><sentence id="363">Yes, a <span class="spatial object">cot</span>. </sentence><sentence id="364">So we -- I found something on the <span class="interior space">third level</span> and I climbed up there with my <span class="spatial object">backpack</span> and I came to lay next to a woman. </sentence><sentence id="365">I didn't know her. </sentence><sentence id="366">She didn't know me. </sentence><sentence id="367">But I remember we talked long into the night of how we got there and what our experiences were and so forth and so on. </sentence><sentence id="368">And the next days in the <span class="populated place">camp</span> we were put to work, real silly work. </sentence><sentence id="369">We had to carry <span class="env feature">sand</span> from one place to the other. </sentence><sentence id="370">It didn't make sense, but we had to do it, and as time went by they organized us into a variety of tasks, what we had to do. </sentence><sentence id="371">Well, I was really delegated to a place where we were sewing clothing, again sewing clothing, for -- I'm not quite sure for whom it was. </sentence><sentence id="372">That was the whole day. </sentence><sentence id="373">Sometimes we would -- I worked at a Dutch, but this was a Nazi, a Dutch Nazi farmer's <span class="dlf">farm</span>. </sentence><sentence id="374">He had us clean out the <span class="spatial object">pig sties</span>. </sentence><sentence id="375">He had us work around his <span class="dlf">farm</span>, clean up certain things. </sentence><sentence id="376">He had us work in the <span class="dlf">potato fields</span>, or whatever, so that he didn't have so much -- we were slaves to him. </sentence><sentence id="377">He profited from, from the <span class="populated place">camp</span> being so nearby and from being a Nazi and collaborating with the Germans. </sentence><sentence id="378">And as a reward he would sit us with the chickens in the <span class="dlf">yard</span> and give us a watery soup. </sentence><sentence id="379">That was the meal for the day. </sentence><sentence id="380">And we had to wear the <span class="spatial object">Dutch klompen</span>,deg you know, the Dutch wooden shoes and if you're not used to it and you have no socks and you have nothing proper to protect you, these things are very hard and you had blisters every day. </sentence><sentence id="381">And every morning before you went to work there was somebody who took a needle and punched those blisters. </sentence><sentence id="382">It was not very good. </sentence><sentence id="383">Anyway, this time passed too and a lot of illnesses broke out already in this <span class="populated place">camp</span> and I remember that I got jaundice and I was very sick. </sentence><sentence id="384">I mean I was so nauseated and so ill. </sentence><sentence id="385">And I didn't say that before, but every Tuesday night -- every Tuesday the lists of those people who were going to be sent to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> -- we assumed it was <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>, we didn't know one hundred percent, but the <span class="spatial object">trains</span> came back from <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="386">Usually the conductor or somebody would let on where they came from, to pick up more people and to send them off to away and towards the <span class="region">east</span>. </sentence><sentence id="387">Well lists were assembled during the day on Monday and on Tuesday they were read off in the <span class="building">barracks</span>. </sentence><sentence id="388">A Kapo* came to the <span class="building">barracks</span> and was reading off the names of those who were sent away. </sentence><sentence id="389">And as you can imagine this was some horrible, horrible times. </sentence><sentence id="390">People finding out that this was really probably the end or they -- we didn't know hundred percent what was going on in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="391">We, we knew it was terrible but we didn't know exactly how terrible it was. </sentence><sentence id="392">And everybody would help always those who had to leave the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="393">They would help them to assemble their stuff, to console them, to give them whatever they had, a little food left to give them on the way. </sentence><sentence id="394">And it was maybe four months after that I was in this camp -- the <span class="spatial object">trains</span> from the razzias, from the raids on the Jews from <span class="populated place">Amsterdam</span> and other locations in <span class="country">Holland</span>, these <span class="spatial object">trains</span> came all the way into the <span class="building">camp compound</span>. </sentence><sentence id="395">So each afternoon we always heard by -- there was always an <span class="interior space">underground</span> kind of a communication. </sentence><sentence id="396">I don't know how one found out. </sentence><sentence id="397">There were people who had special permits, maybe, who went in and out of the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="398">One got little messages. </sentence><sentence id="399">This day one got the message that a big raid on <span class="populated place">Amsterdam</span> had picked up the rest of the Jews, or nearly the rest of the Jews who still were in <span class="populated place">Amsterdam</span> and we went to meet the <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="400">You could -- were able to do that, to go the <span class="dlf">quays</span> and sure enough my father and his wife were on the <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="401">3 Clogs (Danish) " Forman (colloquial German); term used for inmates appointed by the SS to head a labor commando of prisoners. </sentence><sentence id="402"> And of course it was the same story for him, you know. </sentence><sentence id="403">He was integrated into doing some kind of labor in the <span class="populated place">camp,</span> but end of the year 1944 -- I think it was early September -- we were all sent to <span class="populated place">Bergen-Belsen concentration camp</span> in <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="404">And we packed up our belongings. </sentence><sentence id="405">We went out to the <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="406">There were the SS with the dogs. </sentence><sentence id="407">There was no escaping. </sentence><sentence id="408">There was no hiding. </sentence><sentence id="409">You -- there was no means. </sentence><sentence id="410">If somebody didn't step into the <span class="spatial object">train</span>, people were shot. </sentence><sentence id="411">That was the end. </sentence><sentence id="412">So we left. </sentence><sentence id="413">We came to another ride but that was at least two days if not longer in the <span class="spatial object">cattle truck</span>. </sentence><sentence id="414">And compared with the first ride and experience in the <span class="spatial object">cattle truck</span> going from <span class="populated place">Amsterdam</span> to <span class="populated place">Westerbork</span>, this was a much sadder story because we knew nothing good was expecting us, even worse than the <span class="populated place">camp</span> in <span class="country">Holland</span>, and that <span class="populated place">camp</span> had a -- I'm sorry, that <span class="spatial object">cattle truck</span> had some <span class="spatial object">benches</span> in there. </sentence><sentence id="415">It, it was just a wooden plank. </sentence><sentence id="416">It was filled with people. </sentence><sentence id="417">You couldn't lie on the <span class="interior space">floor</span>. </sentence><sentence id="418">You could stand up. </sentence><sentence id="419">You could maybe if you were lucky you got in between, you could sit on one of those <span class="spatial object">benches</span>. </sentence><sentence id="420">There was a big <span class="spatial object">vat</span> and that was the <span class="spatial object">toilet</span> for everybody for two and a half days. </sentence><sentence id="421">There was no food. </sentence><sentence id="422">There was no drink. </sentence><sentence id="423">There was nothing. </sentence><sentence id="424">They didn't -- the <span class="dlf">doors</span> didn't open. </sentence><sentence id="425">There was a little slit in, in the <span class="spatial object">cattle truck</span> and you could look out sometimes, but you didn't know where you were. </sentence><sentence id="426">I mean you only knew you were rolling, rolling, rolling. </sentence><sentence id="427">When we arrived in at the <span class="building">station</span> closest to the <span class="populated place">camp</span>, which was in <span class="region">northern Germany</span>, in the <span class="populated place">Ltineburger Heide</span>, the <span class="dlf">doors</span> finally opened and we were told to get out. </sentence><sentence id="428">Weakened and not very good condition already because of this days we pass in the <span class="spatial object">cattle truck</span>. </sentence><sentence id="429">And I'll never forget.... First of all I personally was kicked by an SS to get out, and so I really fell out of the <span class="spatial object">truck</span>. </sentence><sentence id="430">But when I got up on my, my legs, I looked up and I saw this <span class="dlf">bridge</span> going -- a <span class="dlf">street</span> really, a <span class="dlf">bridge</span>, a <span class="dlf">street</span> -- going across the <span class="dlf">rails</span> and there were children on this <span class="dlf">bridge</span> looking down on us and yelling "dirty Jews" and throwing rocks. </sentence><sentence id="431">And I always remembered this because after the war I was told so many times, "Well, we didn't know anything about anything." </sentence><sentence id="432">And I never forget these children standing there. </sentence><sentence id="433">How come they knew? </sentence><sentence id="434">How come they always -- they waited for these for these <span class="spatial object">railroad cars</span> to arrive. </sentence><sentence id="435">They knew. </sentence><sentence id="436">I know many more knew, but these children knew. </sentence><sentence id="437">Well, anyway we were then led to march towards the <span class="populated place">camp</span>, which was a long march, and I remember it was through a beautiful <span class="env feature">birch forest</span> and I kept looking at the <span class="env feature">birches</span> and I thought, "This is so beautiful. </sentence><sentence id="438">How can this be? </sentence><sentence id="439">How is it possible that here we are the way, like cattle, they are pushing us to march along?" </sentence><sentence id="440">Nobody was -- could stay behind. </sentence><sentence id="441">If somebody broke down, you had had gotten a kick, you know. </sentence><sentence id="442">When we arrived in the <span class="populated place">camp</span> we were assigned to certain <span class="building">barracks</span> and there the <span class="building">barracks</span> were much narrower, much higher, many more, more <span class="spatial object">bunks</span> closer together and instead of one person to a <span class="spatial object">bunk</span>, we were assigned two persons to one <span class="spatial object">bunk</span>. </sentence><sentence id="443">There was a little straw on the <span class="spatial object">bunk</span> and I ended up with Hannelore, who was my father's second wife. </sentence><sentence id="444">We shared a <span class="spatial object">bunk</span> and we also shared the <span class="env feature">water</span>, which was dripping from through the <span class="dlf">ceiling</span> into our <span class="spatial object">bunk</span>. </sentence><sentence id="445">So we had this tiny little <span class="interior space">space</span> to us where we had to put our belongings, whatever we had, plus ourselves. </sentence><sentence id="446">Two tall people in this little <span class="spatial object">bunk</span> with the straw. </sentence><sentence id="447">But we shared a raincoat and so we spread that raincoat at night over us. </sentence><sentence id="448">And in the morning you looked up and there was a <span class="env feature">puddle</span> in the middle of it between the two of us. </sentence><sentence id="449">And we had to somehow get rid of the <span class="env feature">water</span> if we didn't want to splash it just over overboard so to speak. </sentence><sentence id="450">Well, the food was minimal, to say the least. </sentence><sentence id="451">It was very bad. </sentence><sentence id="452">It was a watery soup as <span class="env feature">tutabagas</span>, the smallest portion of bread which had to last for a whole week. </sentence><sentence id="453">Some people ate it up right away because they were so afraid that that it might not be there when you went to work and you came back at night that somebody might have stolen it, the smallest amount. </sentence><sentence id="454">So some people ate it right away. </sentence><sentence id="455">Some people were hiding it in some ingenious way. </sentence><sentence id="456">Some people couldn't make -- couldn't, couldn't last for the whole week because it was really such a small portion. </sentence><sentence id="457">And the rutabagas were, were awful, too, because most of them were hard and if -- I have seen people who did not eat the -- you know, when it becomes real bad, sometimes dried out and gray, they took them out. </sentence><sentence id="458">And I have seen other people pick up those which were taken out and chewed over by other people and take it just because of the hunger cause they had nothing really to eat. </sentence><sentence id="459">How one survived this I -- to this day, when I look back I never understand this. </sentence><sentence id="460">I, I don't understand how we could have survived, but we did, with such a small amount of food. </sentence><sentence id="461">Anyway the work we had to do was another useless work. </sentence><sentence id="462">We were assigned to cut out from uniforms from German soldiers which were -- had either died on the <span class="region">eastern front</span> or were shot by -- I don't know by whom, but anyway and they were bloody uniforms, and we had to cut off all the buttons. </sentence><sentence id="463">We had to cut off all little pieces which were not blood-drenched and these were saved for whatever reason. </sentence><sentence id="464">The Germans needed the <span class="spatial object">buttons</span>. </sentence><sentence id="465">They needed the little pieces, because the war had also left them with very few material goods and, and they used it to repair other uniforms, to, you know, to whatever, make do. </sentence><sentence id="466">We had to work in this from morning to night. </sentence><sentence id="467">But the mornings in the <span class="populated place">camp</span> life started off that you had to go out on the <span class="interior space">Appellplatz</span>," which means the place where everybody had to assemble. </sentence><sentence id="468">A huge place. </sentence><sentence id="469">All <span class="building">barracks</span> had to come there at a certain hour, early in the moming after the Kapos woke you up very early, and two, three SS standing there and counting us. </sentence><sentence id="470">Every morning we were counted. </sentence><sentence id="471">Why we were counted I cannot tell you, but it had to be precise and if the numbers didn't come out, you had to be counted again. </sentence><sentence id="472">If it took one hour, if it took five hours, they didn't care. </sentence><sentence id="473">You had to be counted. </sentence><sentence id="474">Whether it was cold, whether it was raining, whether it was sunshine -- you had to be counted and during the same time that we were all standing out there, they would run <span class="spatial object">horse-drawn carriage</span> where they threw the bodies of those people who were either shot or hanged or had died from hunger, from whatever, and they wanted to make sure that we see each morning these <span class="spatial object">horse-drawn carriages</span> drive by. </sentence><sentence id="475">And I remember one time I looked out and I saw on the <span class="dlf">fence</span> two bodies hanging on the <span class="dlf">fence</span>. </sentence><sentence id="476">These people were hung * <span class="dlf">roll call grounds</span> (German) there during the night. </sentence><sentence id="477">Just -- they wanted -- and shot -- I mean they were no longer living, but they let them hang there so that we could see it -- what would happen to us if we maybe not obey. </sentence><sentence id="478">From the regular work you could be sometimes selected to do some special work like maybe cleaning the <span class="interior space">pit toilets</span> or, or doing something around outside the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="479">Like one time I remember I was picked out to go with one of the SS and a couple of other prisoners to the nearest <span class="populated place">village</span> of the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="480">We had to pick up something and we had to load it on this <span class="spatial object">wagon</span>, on this big <span class="spatial object">wagon</span>. </sentence><sentence id="481">There was no extra food. </sentence><sentence id="482">There was no, not even a sip of water that we would get but we were asked to stand by as the SS was feeding the horse the sugars out of his hand and we could watch it. </sentence><sentence id="483">That was a treat for us. </sentence><sentence id="484">But it was very hard. </sentence><sentence id="485">It was very hard because you were always so hungry and there was, there was nothing. </sentence><sentence id="486">I mean that was one of the terrible things that not only were you mistreated but you also were so hungry all the time. </sentence><sentence id="487">And I didn't know because I didn't have a <span class="spatial object">mirror</span>, I didn't know how I looked. </sentence><sentence id="488">But my father always told me towards the end of the war, towards the end of <span class="populated place">Bergen-Belsen</span>, he said I was very puffed up, that I had hunger, I had hunger-edema. </sentence><sentence id="489">You know, you've seen these little children from <span class="country">Asia</span> who were blown up. </sentence><sentence id="490">Well, I wasn't so little anymore but I was --had this and it, it was really very bad. </sentence><sentence id="491">If you were sick during that time, it was very bad because not like in, in <span class="populated place">Westerbork</span> where there was still the possibility of being in a <span class="building">barrack</span> specially you, you, you still were treated a little bit more humanely. </sentence><sentence id="492">But if you really got sick in <span class="populated place">Bergen-Belsen</span>, that was a very bad thing. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="627">Q: What would happen? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="629">A: You were just left there. </sentence><sentence id="630">I mean it -- there was there was no medication to speak of. </sentence><sentence id="631">There was nothing. </sentence><sentence id="632">The, the Jewish doctors had no means of really helping you. </sentence><sentence id="633">I don't think there was an aspirin in that <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="634">I don't think there was a bandage in that <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="635">I don't, I don't remember any of this stuff. </sentence><sentence id="636">Tough luck. </sentence><sentence id="637">I mean it was not possible. </sentence><sentence id="638">I believe it must have been towards the end of -- either the very end of December of 1944 or in the first week of 1945, Fraulein(r) Doctor Slottke, Fraulein Doctor Slottke -- Miss, Miss Doctor Slottke from the <span class="building">Central Security Office</span> in <span class="populated place">Berlin</span> arrived in the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="639">And she called to her all those people who had passports either some foreign passports. </sentence><sentence id="640">Now our family had received through the auspices, and a wonderful deed, of an uncle -- who was really a cousin -- Max Weil. </sentence><sentence id="641">He lived in <span class="country">Switzerland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="642">He was not Swiss. </sentence><sentence id="643">He was also German refugee, German Jewish refugee. </sentence><sentence id="644">He had bought passports from us from the <span class="building">Paraguayan Consul</span> in <span class="populated place">Bern</span>. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="645">These passports stated that we were Paraguayan citizens, parenthetically. </sentence><sentence id="646">After the war, it was found out that this man had done this on his own, trying to help people but at the same time I believe he pocketed all the money for himself, of paying these passports. </sentence><sentence id="647">But really I don't care, because these passports helped our -- us. </sentence><sentence id="648">And I assume this man wanted to help. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="649">These passports interestingly enough reached us during the German occupation already, so we were able to receive it already although it was occupied and there was a censorship and all that. </sentence><sentence id="650">But we appeared in front of this Fraulein Doctor Slottke and she told us that they -- </sentence></p><p><sentence id="651"> SS young woman (German) that she wanted to exchange us Paraguayans and many others who held other passports for Germans who were living outside <span class="country">Germany</span>, who were not able to return, who were caught in the war. </sentence><sentence id="652">Who were living outside <span class="country">Germany</span>, and who could not get back to <span class="country">Germany</span> unless there was an arrangement that they would release so many Jewish prisoners for Germans. </sentence><sentence id="653">She said that they, we couldn't help it that we were in the <span class="region">state</span> we were and that she.... Excuse me. </sentence><sentence id="654">Can I just drink? </sentence><sentence id="655">That she, that she would arrange that we would leave by <span class="spatial object">train</span> and go outside <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="656"> She told us that the next morning we would have to go through a thorough cleansing job. </sentence><sentence id="657">By the way, we were many times taken to this "<span class="interior space">cleansing bath</span>," so to speak -- I want to back -- track a minute on that, and taken there because we were full of lice all the time. </sentence><sentence id="658">But we had to take off our clothes. </sentence><sentence id="659">They were put into a big <span class="spatial object">machine</span> or something like that, in a <span class="spatial object">container</span> and which supposedly was heated up so that it should kill these lice but they never were killed. </sentence><sentence id="660">They were only worse every time that when you got your clothes back. </sentence><sentence id="661">And meantime you went -- had to go to a <span class="interior space">shower bath</span> and the SS -- male and female -- were, we were totally naked. </sentence><sentence id="662">We were standing around. </sentence><sentence id="663">They was standing there talking to one another, laughing their head off that we were all standing there in -- with nothing on helplessly. </sentence><sentence id="664">And then they sent us out. </sentence><sentence id="665">I remember one time standing in the <span class="env feature">snow</span> with the shoes on, no clothes whatsoever. </sentence><sentence id="666">The snow was on the <span class="env feature">ground</span>. </sentence><sentence id="667">It was freezing cold; and we had to wait for those de-liced, so-called de-liced clothing, which always came back with the lice crawling more on it because they never heated it up enough; and they said they had to re-do it because the lice weren't killed. </sentence><sentence id="668">So we were standing for a couple of hours before we got our clothes back. </sentence><sentence id="669">Now we had this experience, and we thought, "Oh no, we'll get again the same story," which we really did. </sentence><sentence id="670">But at the same time they also wanted us to throw away all the -- whatever we had which could be used against the Germans as a document. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="671">For some reason I have few little documents left. </sentence><sentence id="672">They must have been in some seams or hidden away or in a pocket they didn't see because when I remember -- when I entered this, this <span class="interior space">hall</span> where, where the people were processed, it was littered with paper. </sentence><sentence id="673">It was littered with clothing, with lice crawling over it and we were supposed to keep only what was on our bodies and as we went off we left the <span class="populated place">camp</span> after this whole procedure and we thought, "Was she telling the truth?" </sentence><sentence id="674">We didn't know whether we could trust her or not and as we walked again through the little <span class="env feature">birch forest</span> and we came out and we saw-it was a cold month--we saw the steam coming up, this, this smoke rising into the <span class="env feature">sky</span> and sure enough.... We could not believe it. </sentence><sentence id="675">We could not believe that there was really a little <span class="spatial object">train</span> standing, which was apparently. </sentence><sentence id="676">We got into the <span class="spatial object">train</span>, and every <span class="interior space">compartment</span> was heated. </sentence><sentence id="677">We were living in cold <span class="building">barracks</span> for so long we didn't even know what a nice comfortable <span class="interior space">warm room</span> felt like. </sentence><sentence id="678">I mean, in this case, the, the <span class="spatial object">train</span>. </sentence><sentence id="679">Well, we came into the <span class="spatial object">train</span> and we could not believe it either, because they came around and gave us something to eat. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="680"> And said that we would go towards the <span class="dlf">Swiss border</span>, that from there on we would be exchanged against the German prisoners -- not prisoners. </sentence><sentence id="681">I mean, the German people who were outside <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="682">And they wished us, so to speak, a good trip. </sentence><sentence id="683">Well, we were started to roll and roll and we came across <span class="region">areas</span> where just before we had arrived there was a bombardment. </sentence><sentence id="684">Because already during that time the Germans -- the Allies had advanced into <span class="country">Germany</span> and there were also occasionally bombardments of various <span class="region">areas</span> which was strategically important to the Allies. </sentence><sentence id="685">And we were held back at various <span class="building">stations</span> because the <span class="dlf">train rails</span> had to be repaired and so forth. </sentence><sentence id="686">And we, we made a terrible detour, I remember, because suddenly we saw that we were in <span class="populated place">Berlin</span> and we couldn't understand it. " </sentence><sentence id="687">If we go directly to the <span class="dlf">Swiss border</span> how come we are going through <span class="populated place">Berlin</span>?" </sentence><sentence id="688">And we got very anxious and suspicious again. </sentence><sentence id="689">But, indeed, we, we came through <span class="region">southern Germany</span> and we were heading towards the <span class="dlf">Swiss border</span>. </sentence><sentence id="690">Well, as you can imagine, people who had lived through that were not -- their health was not the best. </sentence><sentence id="691">And there was one person in particular, I remember we stopped at a certain <span class="building">station</span>, and his body -- he had died during the <span class="spatial object">train</span> ride and his body was taken off the <span class="spatial object">train</span> and probably taken to the <span class="building">morgue</span> of the <span class="populated place">village</span> where we had stopped. </sentence><sentence id="692">As we approached the Dutch -- the <span class="dlf">Swiss border</span>, the SS stopped the <span class="spatial object">train</span> at a certain point and called people who were responsible from the group. </sentence><sentence id="693">They assigned certain people -- one of them was my dad -- they called them out and told them that they had to tell us that only a small number of the people on the <span class="spatial object">train</span> were going really to <span class="country">Switzerland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="694">That we were in such a bad condition that we -- they did not want us -- to send us across the <span class="dlf">border</span>. </sentence><sentence id="695">I guess they had a little feeling of shame left or whatever. </sentence><sentence id="696">We ended up in a -- in the <span class="building">barracks</span>, <span class="building">military barracks</span> actually, and made one military person responsible for us. </sentence><sentence id="697">It was -- we were assigned actually there for a couple of nights. </sentence><sentence id="698">Quite nice <span class="interior space">rooms</span>. </sentence><sentence id="699">And we -- they gave us something to eat. </sentence><sentence id="700">It wasn't very much, but we, we didn't have to starve during that time. </sentence><sentence id="701">Wasn't too much -- it was good. </sentence><sentence id="702">It wasn't too much, because our body and stomach didn't tolerate any more food really. </sentence><sentence id="703">But what we were not quite sure of -- what were they going to do with us? </sentence><sentence id="704">Where were we going? </sentence><sentence id="705">We knew that the war was towards an end, but we did not know -- until the day we left we were not informed that they had negotiated with <span class="populated place">Berlin</span> to send us back to <span class="populated place">Bergen-Belsen</span>. </sentence><sentence id="706">Because the reason <span class="populated place">Berlin</span> didn't say, "Yes, send them," they couldn't do it right away because the <span class="dlf">railroad tracks</span> were even further damaged and the communication -- <span class="dlf">lines</span> of communication were severed. </sentence><sentence id="707">So that it would have been an eternal ride on the <span class="spatial object">train</span>, probably escaping from here to there. </sentence><sentence id="708">Instead, they decided they would put us into an <span class="populated place">internment camp</span> for the time being. </sentence><sentence id="709">And so we, we ended up in an <span class="populated place">internment camp</span>; and in that <span class="populated place">internment camp</span> were people from the islands of <span class="populated place">Guernsey</span> and <span class="country">Jersey</span> from <span class="country">England</span>. </sentence><sentence id="710">Germans had occupied <span class="populated place">Guernsey</span> and <span class="country">Jersey</span>, and had interned most of its citizens in, in various <span class="populated place">camps</span>. </sentence><sentence id="711">One of them was that <span class="populated place">camp</span> where we were. </sentence><sentence id="712">During that time when we were in the <span class="populated place">camp</span> it was very close to the end of the war. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="713">Was more illness, more -- there was more help available for us because people had supplies from the <span class="building">British Red Cross</span>. </sentence><sentence id="714">They were trying to de-louse us, cut off the hair because we were just full with lice. </sentence><sentence id="715">They gave us some food. </sentence><sentence id="716">They had to share -- could share with us. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="717">We were getting a little more fed and a little oriented where we were, what happened to us; and on April the 23rd, 1945, the French Army liberated us. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="718">Q: What was that like? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="719">A: What was that like? </sentence><sentence id="720">It was unbelievable. </sentence><sentence id="721">We couldn't believe that this.... We had hoped always that the war would end and that this would happen. </sentence><sentence id="722">But when it happened, it was so, so unbelievable that we should suddenly have our freedom again. </sentence><sentence id="723">Although we were in <span class="country">Germany</span> and we didn't like that idea. </sentence><sentence id="724">But we were free. </sentence><sentence id="725">Free. </sentence><sentence id="726">And there were many -- quite a number of weeks went by when we had to leave that <span class="populated place">camp</span> and then we were, had to go to an <span class="populated place">UNRRA camp</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="735">Q: Let's stop here. </sentence><sentence id="736">We have to put another tape on. </sentence><sentence id="737">This is a good place to break. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="741"> End of tape 1 TAPE #2 </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="742">A: --Iremember my cousin, my cousin, my aunt, my uncle and a little -- my, my little cousin. </sentence><sentence id="743">I mean, say little cousin -- my cousin was only three years old, one of them, when we were in the <span class="populated place">camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="744">They -- the boy lived with my uncle and the girl lived with my aunt, in the same <span class="spatial object">bunk</span>. </sentence><sentence id="745">I feel -- when I look back I feel that communication and relations between the individual people were really very rough. </sentence><sentence id="746">There was because maybe of the hunger -- I, I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="747">I always look back and I have always these horrible pictures in front of me. </sentence><sentence id="748">People stealing one another -- off one another the bread. </sentence><sentence id="749">It could mean life or death if you had enough to eat. </sentence><sentence id="750">But this didn't count. </sentence><sentence id="751">People were uninhibitedly stealing. </sentence><sentence id="752">I remember for instance there was only one <span class="spatial object">toilet</span>, and in the morning you had to stand in <span class="dlf">line</span>, twenty, twenty-five deep or something, to go to this one <span class="spatial object">toilet</span>. </sentence><sentence id="753">And people were screaming and yelling at one another and telling them, "You can't stay in any longer and I pull you out." </sentence><sentence id="754">It was terrible. </sentence><sentence id="755">It was because of their own terrible needs I guess that they became like animals sometimes. </sentence><sentence id="756">I, unfortunately I don't remember that it brought out the best in anybody. </sentence><sentence id="757">I don't remember that. </sentence><sentence id="758">I wish I would, but I don't. </sentence><sentence id="759">I remember, for instance, other things that people because of the hunger, because of this, for some reason they were standing together and exchanging recipes. </sentence><sentence id="760">There were imaginary cooking sessions. </sentence><sentence id="761">There were dreams about -- I remember with Hannelore, we were talking about if we're ever liberated, what would we do in terms of -- we would buy a loaf of bread, buy coffee, jam and butter and prepare all of this, lock the <span class="dlf">door</span> in a <span class="interior space">room</span>, and do nothing but eating this bread, butter, jam and jelly, and, and coffee. </sentence><sentence id="762">This was our dream. </sentence><sentence id="763">We repeated it. </sentence><sentence id="764">This was our hope. </sentence><sentence id="765">We had the strangest experiences in these <span class="populated place">camps</span>. </sentence><sentence id="766">For instance, there -- one of the guards, she was called "The Blonde," she would come through the <span class="building">barracks</span> and there was one woman who had a baby -- who, of course, died, because a baby cannot survive at all under those circumstances. </sentence><sentence id="767">But she would have it the weakness, sort of, and told the woman that she also has a baby, and she would try and get her some food for the baby. </sentence><sentence id="768">And she visited her until the baby died, really nearly every day. </sentence><sentence id="769">Turning her around, she would come through the <span class="building">barracks</span> every second day or so; and you had to have your <span class="spatial object">bunk</span> made up in such a perfect manner, totally straight. </sentence><sentence id="770">There was not allowed that there was one little fold somewhere, one little wrinkle or anything. </sentence><sentence id="771">She would pull it away and she would make sure that your rations were cut out if, if she ever would find that this was not perfect. </sentence><sentence id="772">She also didn't mind to use her little whip on people. </sentence><sentence id="773">And here she was that she was so concerned about the baby because she identified with this woman and, and her own child -- strangest occurrences. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="806">Q: What personally enabled you to get through? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="808">A: Well, I, I think a couple of things that -- hope that you had sort of the -- way down something told you maybe, maybe we, we, we have to get out of this. </sentence><sentence id="809">We can't survive -- we, we have to survive I mean, somehow. </sentence><sentence id="810">That this something was telling you, you have to and hope that you will, and maybe that you were young and confident somehow that luck will be on your side. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="814">Q: Shall we backtrack from liberation. </sentence><sentence id="815">Apparently luck was on your side and you were liberated. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="818">A: Right. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="820">Q: Pick up there again. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="822">A: When, when we were in <span class="populated place">UNRRA camp</span>, it was -- it, it should have been a new beginning. </sentence><sentence id="823">It was a new planning. </sentence><sentence id="824">It was a new thinking. " </sentence><sentence id="825">Where do we go from here? </sentence><sentence id="826">What are our, our possibilities to go from where?" </sentence><sentence id="827">We could not go back to <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="828">We did not want to go back to <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="829">To go to <span class="country">Holland</span>? </sentence><sentence id="830">Yes, we wanted to go to <span class="country">Holland</span>; but we also knew that we had wanted to leave <span class="country">Holland</span> at one time. </sentence><sentence id="831">So we had to, to make a plan to use <span class="country">Holland</span> only as a temporary place of, of, of sojourn, that we had to hopefully get to <span class="country">America</span> or to <span class="country">Israel</span>. </sentence><sentence id="832"><span class="country">Israel</span> was not possible for us at the time. </sentence><sentence id="833">So <span class="country">America</span> was more, more likely for us at that time. </sentence><sentence id="834">It was a matter of time, everything, but we had already so much times waited and spent and suffered. </sentence><sentence id="835">We, we wanted already to arrive somewhere. </sentence><sentence id="836">There was a possibility for me to go much earlier than my father, because I was born in <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="837">And the German quota to come to the <span class="country">United States</span> was much smaller because the Americans rightfully did not want the Germans to at that time to come to <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="838">They had to be de-Nazified, or they wanted to make sure who it was so the only German-born people were essentially a few exception scientists and so forth. </sentence><sentence id="839">And the German-born Jews, because that quota was more open. </sentence><sentence id="840">My father, who was born in <span class="country">France</span>, <span class="populated place">Strasbourg</span>, had to wait much longer than I did. </sentence><sentence id="841">So I went back to <span class="country">Holland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="842">I was able to get to go back to <span class="country">Holland</span> in 194-- end of 1947. </sentence><sentence id="843">This was nearly three years after the war. </sentence><sentence id="844">Oh, longer -- more than three years after the war. </sentence><sentence id="845">And after a few months in <span class="country">Holland</span>, I finally was able to get a visa to come to the <span class="country">United States</span>. </sentence><sentence id="846">And the nice part of this was that when we had left -- when we tried to leave <span class="country">Holland</span> in 1940, we were going to go with the <span class="dlf">Holland-America line</span> to <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="847">And we had booked the tickets. </sentence><sentence id="848">And the man who was in charge of the <span class="building">office</span> in <span class="populated place">Rotterdam</span>, for some reason because of my father's work he knew my dad. </sentence><sentence id="849">And when I came to <span class="country">Holland</span>, after I had gotten my visa in <span class="populated place">Rotterdam</span>, I said, "Well, let me see. </sentence><sentence id="850">I go by the <span class="dlf">Holland- America line</span>." </sentence><sentence id="851">I had no money, really, to come to <span class="country">America</span>, to go on the <span class="spatial object">boat</span>; but I went there, and I said, "Let me try." </sentence><sentence id="852">I said -- I go in there and I said -- I told my story, that I had left -- was supposed to leave that time, that I never used the ticket and is it possible to use it now. </sentence><sentence id="853">And so the clerk to whom I spoke said, "Just a minute." </sentence><sentence id="854">And he went into the <span class="building">office</span> of the head of this <span class="building">office</span>, the director; and the director was there. </sentence><sentence id="855">And he came out personally, and he called me into his <span class="building">office</span>. </sentence><sentence id="856">And he, he, he was absolutely fantastic. </sentence><sentence id="857">But he was so nice and so stunned about the whole story I had to tell him. </sentence><sentence id="858">He said, "There's no question that we will honor your ticket." </sentence><sentence id="859">And not only did he send me to <span class="country">America</span> on that <span class="spatial object">boat</span> with the ticket we had paid so many years before, he put me into first class. </sentence><sentence id="860">And so I came to <span class="country">America</span> on the first class, on the, on the <span class="spatial object">Dutch liner</span>. </sentence><sentence id="861">And he also honored, of course, my father's ticket. </sentence><sentence id="862">And this was a few years later. </sentence><sentence id="863">So when he came to the <span class="country">United States</span>, he also came with the same <span class="spatial object">boat</span>; and this was really a wonderful gesture of this man. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="906">Q: What happened to the other members of your family? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="908">A: Well, that story is -- my close -- those members who were really caught in, in this terrible storm were my grandparents from my mother's side. </sentence><sentence id="909">My grandparents never left <span class="country">Germany</span>. </sentence><sentence id="910">They never were able to, to get out or to escape it, and we know from letters we have gotten and from facts that my grandparents were deported to <span class="populated place">Lodz ghetto</span> in <span class="country">Poland</span> in 1942. </sentence><sentence id="911">And we also know that my grandfather died in <span class="populated place">Lodz</span>, because my grandmother wrote it to her sister in <span class="populated place">Amsterdam</span>. </sentence><sentence id="912">And since we lived in <span class="populated place">Amsterdam</span> I, you know, I was able to, to get that message from, from this aunt. </sentence><sentence id="913">And what we later found out, my, my -- the brother of my mother, uncle I have and we went back to <span class="populated place">Frankfurt</span> and we went to this <span class="building">house</span> where my grandparents lived "til the end, before they were deported. </sentence><sentence id="914">We know -- from, from the engineer who lived in this <span class="building">house</span> -- they said that my grandparents were picked up and that day and put on one of those <span class="spatial object">wagons</span>, thrown on these <span class="spatial object">wagons</span>. </sentence><sentence id="915">My grandfather was over eighty at that time, and he -- his health wasn't very good. </sentence><sentence id="916">He never lived very long in the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, in <span class="populated place">Lodz</span>; and my poor grandmother survived the <span class="populated place">ghetto</span>, but then was sent to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> and of course never came back from <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="917">And my father's family, my grandmother and grandfather were dead at that time. </sentence><sentence id="918">They died before Hitler even. </sentence><sentence id="919">My father had some cousins in <span class="populated place">Berlin</span> who did not survive the war in <span class="country">Germany</span> and our family is rather small. </sentence><sentence id="920">My cousins in <span class="country">Holland</span> and, and their parents, my father's brother and his sister-in-law and their two children, survived the war in a similar fashion than we did. </sentence><sentence id="921">Except after the war, when they were liberated, they could go back to <span class="country">Holland</span> much earlier than we could because they were originally Dutch citizens. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="936">Q: But you went on to <span class="country">America</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="938">A: Yes, yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="940">Q: And what was it like there? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="942">A: Oh, in the beginning it was very strange. </sentence><sentence id="943">It was very difficult for me. </sentence><sentence id="944">It -- because I, I was shocked, because I arrived and maybe an hour later people started to ask me, "How do you like <span class="country">America</span>?" </sentence><sentence id="945">I didn't know how I liked <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="946">How can I know how I liked <span class="country">America</span>? </sentence><sentence id="947">I mean, I was overwhelmed, with everything and I had to go out and find a <span class="interior space">room</span>, a job, had -- it was a cultural shock for me. </sentence><sentence id="948">It took me quite a while till I got adjusted. </sentence><sentence id="949">I was very depressed in the beginning when I came to America-- </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="950">Q: What <span class="populated place">city</span> did you come to? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="951">A: To <span class="populated place">New York</span>. </sentence><sentence id="952">I only really started to feel good when I went to <span class="populated place">Charlottesville</span>, <span class="region">Virginia</span>, where we had some wonderful cousins. </sentence><sentence id="953">And I went to <span class="building">school</span>; and slowly -- and I also found some friends there. </sentence><sentence id="954">One was actually another survivor, but I slowly got absorbed into -- learned about American society and about family life and all the good things which I did not really experience so much in <span class="populated place">New York</span>. </sentence><sentence id="955">I don't think it's a good -- it was the best place to come to being.... If I had been received in a family or if I had -- it, it wasn't so -- I had to struggle by myself mos-- mainly. </sentence><sentence id="956">I had one nice experience, you know, I lived in -- and a very strange experience -- I lived in a in a <span class="interior space">room</span> which I rented from also a refugee family and I got quite friendly with one of the girls. </sentence><sentence id="957">And years later, I think forty years later or something. </sentence><sentence id="958">I'm here in <span class="populated place">Washington</span> and I belong to, to an independent congregation. </sentence><sentence id="959">And one night -- it's a <span class="populated place">community</span> actually -- and one night over coffee different people tell one another their story and talk to one another. </sentence><sentence id="960">And I find out that the woman I'm talking to is the daughter of that family where I, where I had a <span class="interior space">room</span> when I first came to <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="961">She's one of my very good friends. </sentence><sentence id="962">Then after <span class="populated place">Charlottesville</span>, I came to <span class="populated place">Washington</span>; and I was a member of the <span class="building">international student house</span>, where I met my husband and life started to get good. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="975">Q: And do you have any children? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="977">A: I have two children -- two boys, Michael and David. </sentence><sentence id="978">And they are both married, have both wonderful families; and I have two grandchildren now. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="981">Q: And what about your father? </sentence><sentence id="982">He came over, I presume, afterwards? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="985">A: Yes, and he lived in <span class="populated place">New York</span>. </sentence><sentence id="986">He worked for a <span class="building">Jewish self-help organization</span> for many, many years. </sentence><sentence id="987">He remarried once more, and he died three and a half years ago. </sentence><sentence id="988">He was nearly ninety years old, and he was widowed just two years before he died. </sentence><sentence id="989">And during the last two years of his life, he, he went -- he traveled enormously and he was able to enjoy really everything more than he ever had before then, until the last six months of his life when he got very ill. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="995">Q: We're coming to the end of the tape, and I'm -- I'd like to ask you two things. </sentence><sentence id="996">One, if there's anything that you feel that you've left out, anything you'd like to add, and -- </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="999">A: I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="1000">I don't remember exactly. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1003">Q: You don't remember what you don't remember. </sentence><sentence id="1004">And two, in general -- can you formulate in general how your experiences in the war affected you? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1007">A: Oh, I'm sure they affected me a lot. </sentence><sentence id="1008">I would say they certainly affected my self-confidence for years. </sentence><sentence id="1009">They certainly affected my own self-value for years. </sentence><sentence id="1010">I'm sure they affected me in relationships and trust in other people for years. </sentence><sentence id="1011">I'm sure they still affect me in terms of if I see police or uniforms or -- still do. </sentence><sentence id="1012">I think truly that if I have regained any of these it was really due to my husband, who has helped me a great deal in overcoming some of these fears, the self-value, and all of that. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1019">Q: Thank you very much. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1021">A: Thank you. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1022"> [Showing photographs] </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1023">A: OK. </sentence><sentence id="1024">These are my maternal grandparents, Alice and Louis Bloch, picture taken I assume when they were very young, marry picture perhaps. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1025"> [Technical conversation] </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1026">A: This is a picture of my parents, Else and Alfred Moser. </sentence><sentence id="1027">I don't know when it was taken but I assume it must be very early in their marriage. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1028"> [Technical conversation] </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1029">A: This is a picture -- family picture I should say, but my grandparents, my paternal grandparents are on this picture. </sentence><sentence id="1030">The man with a moustache is my grandfather Julius Moser and the lady with the deep-seated eyes my grandmother Bertha Moser and the man with the small moustache is her brother Max Weil. </sentence><sentence id="1031">The young girl standing is a cousin of my father's, Alice Sternheimer, and I'm not sure who the young boy is but I, I guess it's her, her brother. </sentence><sentence id="1032">I don't know. </sentence><sentence id="1033">But as I look at this picture, it's interesting -- this must be taken around 1915, I figure -- the <span class="spatial object">bowl</span> you see standing there with the cherries on it, painted on it. </sentence><sentence id="1034">| remember that my grandmother had that <span class="spatial object">bowl</span> when I was little girl. </sentence><sentence id="1035">I always admired that <span class="spatial object">bowl</span>. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1036"> [Technical conversation] </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1037">A: This is a picture of myself. </sentence><sentence id="1038">I must have been between four and five years old, ready to go to <span class="spatial object">masked ball</span>. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="1039"> [Technical conversation] </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1040">A: This is the <span class="spatial object">Star of David</span> we had to wear on our clothing starting 1942 in <span class="country">Holland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="1041">It had, like I said in my interview, it had to be attached to your clothing on every piece of clothing you were wearing. </sentence><sentence id="1042">You see that it says, in Dutch, "Jew." </sentence><sentence id="1043"> [Conclusion of Interview] </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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