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layout: transcript |
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interviewee: father francis cegielka |
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rg_number: rg-50.030.0052 |
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pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0052_trs_en.pdf |
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ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504550 |
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gender: m |
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birth_date: none |
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birth_year: 1908.0 |
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place_of_birth: grabow |
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country: poland |
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experience_group: non-jewish,helper,resistance |
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ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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ghetto: none |
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camp(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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camp: none |
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non_ss_camp: none |
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region: none |
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needs_research: none |
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data_entry: cl |
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accession: none |
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revisit: none |
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tags: transcripts |
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<body><dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1">FATHER FRANCIS CEGIELKA October 2, 1990 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3">Q: We are on camera. </sentence><sentence id="4">We have started to film. </sentence><sentence id="5">Would you tell me your full name please? </sentence><sentence id="6">Give me your name. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="11">A: <span class="building">Father Francis Anthony Cegileka</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="13">Q: Where were you born? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="15">A: In <span class="populated place">Grabow</span>, the province of <span class="populated place">Poznan</span>, <span class="country">Poland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="16">But <span class="country">Poland</span> under occupation of German in 1908, we still lived under the German power. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="19">Q: Father, if you would lean back and relax. </sentence><sentence id="20">I will move my <span class="spatial object">chair</span> forward if necessary so that you can hear me, but </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="23">A: We have started? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="25">Q: We have started. </sentence><sentence id="26">It's important that you be comfortable. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="29">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="31">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="32">Uh...Tell me about your family. </sentence><sentence id="33">How many people were in your family and what... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="37">A: We were 9 children, five brothers and....uh...six brothers and three sisters. </sentence><sentence id="38">And...uh...we all had been educated first of all in the <span class="building">German schools</span> and then since 1918, we had the opportunity to be taught in the <span class="building">Polish schools</span>. </sentence><sentence id="39">And in my case I had to go to the <span class="building">college</span> also and did then I studied theology in <span class="populated place">Rome</span>, being called according to my judgment and conviction to the priesthood I had to study theology, philosophy and theology. </sentence><sentence id="40">And I entered the Society of the Catholic Apostolite, and after the first preparation, that is to say, <span class="building">grammar school</span>, <span class="building">college</span>...uh...after I have finished also philosophy in <span class="country">Poland</span>, I was sent to <span class="populated place">Rome</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="45">Q: Could we...could we back up a little bit? </sentence><sentence id="46">I'd like to know a little more before we go into those years. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="49">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="51">Q: About your childhood. </sentence><sentence id="52">When you were...uh...a young boy...uh...I'd like to know a little bit about what life was like for you and your parents as a young...as a young...when you were a young boy in <span class="country">Poland</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="55">A: You see, when I was 6 years old, then I started the <span class="building">grammar school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="56">Yet in...in 1918, we..we are very unhappy because of the war. </sentence><sentence id="57">And my father was convoked to the army as the officer because he was ordered the <span class="building">school</span>, and did then in the first year of...uh... the battle between German...German and Russian soldiers, he was taken into Russian captivity already in 1915 and he was there, which he knew Russian of course, so his conditions of life were not so difficult there. </sentence><sentence id="58">And the...the Russians have esteemed him and used him rather for the more secretarial work, not handwork. </sentence><sentence id="59">In 1918, he benefited and profited by the...uh...disorder because of the Russian Revolution and the __. </sentence><sentence id="60">You see, just by his judgment he knew what to do and came to our family in 1918 and...uh...when <span class="country">Poland</span> became independent, he also had to enter the Polish army. </sentence><sentence id="61">But after some months he came back <span class="building">home</span> and continued his business work. </sentence><sentence id="62">He was an exporter of food to greater <span class="populated place">cities</span>, also to <span class="populated place">Berlin</span>, during the occupation of <span class="country">Poland</span> by Germans. </sentence><sentence id="63">And so our conditions of life were rather good and we had the opportunity to be developed really in the atmosphere of a loving family. </sentence><sentence id="64">And when other members, my brothers and sisters heard about the my life's decision that I will go to priesthood, then they also sympathized with me and helped me really to reach that priesthood by their sympathy, by their prayers and so on. </sentence><sentence id="65">And so...and....uh...uh...in 1920, I went to the <span class="building">gymnasium</span> of <span class="populated place">Naklo</span> in <span class="country">Poland</span> and...uh...there I was 2 years and then transferred to <span class="populated place">Wadowice</span> to the <span class="building">high school</span> of my society. </sentence><sentence id="66">And...uh...it was in the dioceses of <span class="populated place">Krakau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="67">And...uh...then after I had finished the <span class="building">high school</span>, I entered the <span class="building">preparatory school</span> for priesthood and...uh... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="82">Q: What made you decide to go on and to enter the <span class="building">preparatory school</span>? </sentence><sentence id="83">Why did you become a priest? </sentence><sentence id="84">Want to become a priest? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="88">A: You see there was in me some conviction that this is my way of life. </sentence><sentence id="89">It was not my decision, strictly speaking or theologically speaking, but some preparation from above. </sentence><sentence id="90">You see, we do believe in...uh...in our faith that all the vocations of priesthood for religious life come from God himself. </sentence><sentence id="91">And no doubt in order that this cause may mature, you may live a very dignified and religious also family. </sentence><sentence id="92">My parents were very faithful members of the <span class="building">church</span>. </sentence><sentence id="93">All my brothers and sisters too. </sentence><sentence id="94">It was really the proper atmosphere. </sentence><sentence id="95">Also helping to deepen my conviction, there is my place. </sentence><sentence id="96">And did then after I finished philosophy, I was sent to <span class="populated place">Rome</span> to the <span class="building">University</span> to study theology and...uh...to get a doctor degree in theology. </sentence><sentence id="97">So...uh...27 I went to <span class="populated place">Rome</span> and for 4 years I studied there at the <span class="building">Gregorian university</span> and at 31, I received the Priestly ordination and also my doctoral degree. </sentence><sentence id="98">And I went to <span class="country">Poland</span>...back to <span class="country">Poland</span> just to celebrate really my priesthood ordination in my...uh...<span class="populated place">parish</span> where my family lived. </sentence><sentence id="99">And then my professor who became Rector of <span class="building">Polish Catholic Mission</span> in <span class="country">France</span>, he came also for the celebration of my priesthood in my parish where he was a vicar and then invited me to come to <span class="populated place">Paris</span> just to help in his <span class="building">Secretariat</span>. </sentence><sentence id="100">My superiors have allowed, and I spent the first year of my priesthood in <span class="country">France</span>. </sentence><sentence id="101">Then 32 came back to <span class="country">Poland</span> and start...and taught...uh...the proper __ in <span class="building">minor college</span> and then in the superior classes. </sentence><sentence id="102">It was 4...uh...24. </sentence><sentence id="103">Yes, that's right. </sentence><sentence id="104">24 and 28, first in the first classes of <span class="building">colleges</span> and then <span class="building">superior classes</span>. </sentence><sentence id="105">And in 1938...uh...the Primate of <span class="country">Poland</span>, Archbishop of <span class="populated place">Poznan</span> who was also Director of the...uh...<span class="building">Polish Catholic Mission</span> outside <span class="country">Poland</span>, he was asked by my former professor, Director of <span class="building">Polish Catholic mission</span>, that my superiors may help...may really allow me to come again to <span class="country">France</span> and work there. </sentence><sentence id="106">And...uh...I was working for some time and...uh...then in 1938, my superior, former teacher of Latin, has resigned and the Primate has nominated me as superior of the <span class="building">Polish Catholic Mission</span>, that is to say of the Pastoral care of all Poles in <span class="country">Poland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="107">And we had there are about 50 priests who worked for the Polish people only, and as a young Priest I became a Superior of them. </sentence><sentence id="108">Traveling from place after place during summer. </sentence><sentence id="109">It was some days in which I remember some <span class="populated place">Polish parish</span> has celebrated some feast and so I visited also in this way the territory of <span class="country">France</span>. </sentence><sentence id="110">And then ..then when the war came, to <span class="country">France</span>, 1939, we have really also suffered much. </sentence><sentence id="111">And then...then suffered much because...especially because Germans...<span class="country">Germany</span> has occupied <span class="populated place">Paris</span>. </sentence><sentence id="112">And...uh... here really is my great, I would say, for for martyrdom because in...on October 26, 1940 ...uh...Gestapo came to the <span class="building">Polish Catholic Mission</span> in <span class="populated place">Paris</span> and told me, "Gentleman." </sentence><sentence id="113">He didn't call me father. " </sentence><sentence id="114">We have in possession all of your sermons which you delivered to the <span class="spatial object">French radio</span> to the Polish people against our German system. </sentence><sentence id="115">You will not be free anymore. </sentence><sentence id="116">This is the day that we make really the end to your freedom. </sentence><sentence id="117">You come with us and we will place you in the <span class="building">prison</span> of <span class="populated place">Paris</span>." </sentence><sentence id="118">You see 26...26th of October 1940, I was arrested and placed then in <span class="building">prison</span> in <span class="populated place">Paris</span>. </sentence><sentence id="119">And then there I was...from October 26th to November 26th, 1940. </sentence><sentence id="120">That is to say, in the <span class="populated place">Paris</span>, <span class="populated place">Parisian</span>...<span class="building">Parisian prison</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="154">Q: Father, don't...don't worry about dates. </sentence><sentence id="155">Truly. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="158">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="160">Q: Tell...tell me why you had been arrested. </sentence><sentence id="161">The Gestapo referred to radio programs. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="164">A: You see... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="166">Q: Tell me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="168">A: Because...because they collected my radio sermons and believed that I am great enemy of Nazis, and they have not tolerated...you see people also in <span class="country">France</span> who would say something against them, for the Nazis, for the Gestapo. </sentence><sentence id="169">You see their system was sacred. </sentence><sentence id="170">Nobody had the right to offend them. </sentence><sentence id="171">And then I always remained with the same conviction. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="176">Q: What had you been saying on the <span class="spatial object">radio</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="178">A: Well, that Nazism, Hitlerism is not only an enemy of Jewish people, but they are also anti- Christian system. </sentence><sentence id="179">That is to say, not only a system to purify <span class="country">Germany</span> from Jewish population, but also to not with us. </sentence><sentence id="180">It was impossible for them, but to take really under their influence the whole <span class="building">Catholic church</span>. </sentence><sentence id="181">And then...so in my radio sermons, as I told you enlighten by the French government, I consoled the Polish people already occupied by <span class="country">Nazi Germany</span> that Nazism really must collapse because it is not only anti-Jewish system, but anti-Christian and human system. </sentence><sentence id="182">Everything what was for us dignified, you see, was just condemned by Nazis, rejected by Hitlerism. </sentence><sentence id="183">And do not forget I told them that the whole world is not dependant of Nazis, but God is taking care of us. </sentence><sentence id="184">And so do not cooperate. </sentence><sentence id="185">Do not get discouraged. </sentence><sentence id="186">You will suffer no doubt, but in your suffering you will find always our sympathy and the sympathy of the whole <span class="country">Europe</span>. </sentence><sentence id="187">And because, you see, of this tax of this approach to Hitlerism I was not allowed to live as a free person. </sentence><sentence id="188">So they considered me as an Enemy No. </sentence><sentence id="189">1. </sentence><sentence id="190">And then from <span class="populated place">Paris</span> after 1 month of being in <span class="building">prison</span>, I was just transferred...transferred to <span class="populated place">Berlin</span>, and on my way to in <span class="populated place">Berlin</span>, I was few days in <span class="populated place">Trier</span>, ___, <span class="populated place">Hanover</span>, and came to <span class="populated place">Berlin</span> on December the 10, 1940...1940 to <span class="populated place">Berlin</span>, __. </sentence><sentence id="191">And really that in <span class="populated place">Berlin</span> was a place of torture. </sentence><sentence id="192">And...uh...you see no freedom. </sentence><sentence id="193">Just closed in the <span class="interior space">cell</span> and...uh...I was really free only 2 times a month to take some part in the of all the prisoners. </sentence><sentence id="194">Twice a month I was able to leave the <span class="interior space">cell</span>. </sentence><sentence id="195">Otherwise, <span class="interior space">cell</span> was my unique, only place to live. </sentence><sentence id="196">But in...uh...the week which we called Holy Week, I was really taken into the <span class="interior space">black cell</span>, that is to say without a light, without a light, without water, without anything, and there was a left there for 6 days. </sentence><sentence id="197">That is to say, imagine only you have no possibility to look through the <span class="dlf">window</span> because everything was closed. </sentence><sentence id="198">You didn't have any possibility to take <span class="env feature">water</span> or some...take some food because they didn't bring it to you. </sentence><sentence id="199">After this Holy Week, I was really exhausted. </sentence><sentence id="200">But this was not sufficient for them. </sentence><sentence id="201">You see, they...I suppose they tried just to kill me, and they came at the end and felt...treated me so cruelly that I was fully exhausted and perhaps it seemed to them that I am not living any more, but to be sure they took me to the <span class="building">hospital</span> where conditions were certainly not easy but better than the <span class="building">prison</span>. </sentence><sentence id="202">So after some days I have recuperated and then they have taken me back to the . </sentence><sentence id="203">But with more normal conditions of life. </sentence><sentence id="204">That is to say, I have received the regular food as other prisoners, but only with the privilege to leave for the <span class="building">Priminate</span> twice a month. </sentence><sentence id="205">And from ____ I was from December 10, 40. </sentence><sentence id="206">On July 29, 41, I left <span class="populated place">Berlin</span> and then transferred to the <span class="populated place">camp</span> of <span class="populated place">Sachsenhausen</span> close to <span class="populated place">Berlin</span>. </sentence><sentence id="207">And then I came to <span class="populated place">Sachenhausen</span> on July 29th, 41, and was there to February the 3rd, 1942. </sentence><sentence id="208">And there I was also...uh...well, what I say, exhausted. </sentence><sentence id="209">You see because the conditions in the <span class="populated place">camp</span> of concentration are not easy or were not easy. </sentence><sentence id="210">Neither here nor there. </sentence><sentence id="211">And so after 3 weeks in the <span class="building">hospital</span>, I was for them fit to be transported to <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="247">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="248">Let's stop a moment. </sentence><sentence id="249">If you could. </sentence><sentence id="250">I want to put this down. </sentence><sentence id="251">Can we stop and pause the tape a moment please. </sentence><sentence id="252">Uh...Steven, are you there? </sentence><sentence id="253">Can you...we're having sawing or hammering of some kind coming through. </sentence><sentence id="254">Would you please? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="263">A: Okay, Father we are back on camera. </sentence><sentence id="264">You had wanted to tell us the dates of where you were on each place. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="267">Q: But I have already told you. </sentence><sentence id="268">Yes. </sentence><sentence id="269">And we came to <span class="populated place">Sachsenhausen</span> and in <span class="populated place">Sachsenhausen</span> I was from July 29, 41 to February, the 3rd, 1942. </sentence><sentence id="270">And then I was transferred to <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> to the <span class="building">prisons</span> of <span class="populated place">Kothen</span>, <span class="populated place">Leipzig</span>, and <span class="populated place">Nuremberg</span>. </sentence><sentence id="271">And on February the 13th, 1942, I came to <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="272">And...uh...finally, we shall speak about it later, on Sunday, April 29, 1945, we were liberated. </sentence><sentence id="273">Yes. </sentence><sentence id="274">But in <span class="populated place">Sachsenhausen</span>, you see, the conditions were not as cruel as in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="283">And I spent there some time just...uh...doing things as other prisoners and particularly taking care of cleaning the <span class="dlf">roads</span> and the <span class="dlf">streets</span> in <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="284">Deprived of any liberty!And then...then, of course, I was not beaten there as the other prisoners. </sentence><sentence id="285">And so I still was able to continue my life in the <span class="populated place">concentration camps</span>. </sentence><sentence id="286">In <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>, it was really not easy to live and to survive because as the renowned French politician wrote in his book, he was also in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>, and in his book, Liberate Root of Liberty, he says in that book that the <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> for him was an organized Hell. </sentence><sentence id="287">And you see if somebody very intelligent person really writes so that not only for him, but for all the people, it was really life in <span class="populated place">Hell</span>, without any hope, without peace, without liberty. </sentence><sentence id="288">You have been considered just there as a <span class="spatial object">mechanical instrument</span>, moved here and there. </sentence><sentence id="289">And...uh...in my case as the Polish priest, also, we had to work everyday in this so called plantation. </sentence><sentence id="290">And the...the work was really not easy and then every day, every day the same work. </sentence><sentence id="291">And without enough food. </sentence><sentence id="292">And then with the spirit of persecution you see. </sentence><sentence id="293">All those Gestapo people who really tried to direct our work, we our not human and..uh.. although...although they were very...uh...I would say...uh...against all of us. </sentence><sentence id="294">Yet we tried to avoid their discipline you see. </sentence><sentence id="295">And we did when they have...when they have...uh...come to us, we tried to do our best. </sentence><sentence id="296">When they disappeared, we just relaxed. </sentence><sentence id="297">And so they didn't have the true judgment of our work, but when they have seen that we really were not working what they have beaten us. </sentence><sentence id="298">And you see, some Gestapo people were very cruel without any sense of justice and the mocked kindness. </sentence><sentence id="299">And many people beaten, and the <span class="dlf">plantation</span> had to be transferred to the so-called <span class="building">hospital</span> in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="300">And there the Gestapo men finished them. </sentence><sentence id="301">You see, there was a <span class="building">hospital</span> in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="302">I was there also for...uh...some days just to heal my wounds here on the legs. </sentence><sentence id="303">And...uh...we didn't have the true conditions which a sick person should have in the <span class="building">hospital</span>. </sentence><sentence id="304">You see, they treated us just as some living instrument and moved us here and there, also without the proper food. </sentence><sentence id="305">But in those conditions, it was really very important to have a firm will and peace of heart. </sentence><sentence id="306">How was it possible to find peace of heart in such conditions? </sentence><sentence id="307">And I answered just by your faith. </sentence><sentence id="308">You see, if you believed in God, in his not only justice, but also Law, then you knew that you are under his protection and if he permits all that suffering to us, it is also on the basis that we, the mortal priest, are co-responsible for the salvation of the other people. </sentence><sentence id="309">And you cannot be safe according to our gospel, but taking also part in some suffering. </sentence><sentence id="310">St. Paul in his Epistles tells us that our Lord has suffered for us and they offered to God that suffering, but in order that the suffering may be a stripe to us, we had to complete also that suffering by giving our part. </sentence><sentence id="311">And so if you have such faith that your suffering really can bring some fruit to you, to your brethren, then you have found also energy and strength to survive. </sentence><sentence id="312">And...uh...we say very often that suffering can break or make you. </sentence><sentence id="313">It can break you if you see nonsense in the suffering, but if you find out that there is some value also of suffering and because of this in the popular language, we say that it can make you...it can make you stronger. </sentence><sentence id="314">The more so stronger if you are a believer. </sentence><sentence id="315">If you think that everything is under the divine control. </sentence><sentence id="316">And in this faith and in this spirit you can really energize also your body and bring more peace for your daily life. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="353">Q: How did that help you in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>? </sentence><sentence id="354">What was in...in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>, how did your faith help you. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="357">What...what kind of things did you do in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="358">A: You see, it was really...very great danger to lose faith in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="359">If your faith was not firm. </sentence><sentence id="360">Why? </sentence><sentence id="361">Because the German Bishop have received from Himmler the privilege that he has also given to the German priest a <span class="building">chapel</span>, and they had the possibility to have their prayers, devotions, masses, and so on, but under one condition: no one accept German priests were allowed to take part all of the devotions performed in the <span class="building">chapel</span>. </sentence><sentence id="362">But here the danger for some people...you see some people really intended, not only priests but lay people, intended to go to the <span class="building">chapel</span> and pray a little. </sentence><sentence id="363">But there was a custodian, the priest, who according to the order of Gestapo was not allowed to...any body to enter a <span class="building">chapel</span>. </sentence><sentence id="364">And so the lay people said, "Well, how can I believe if this minister of God is so cruel just not to allow me to go to the <span class="building">chapel</span> for a spiritual comfort? </sentence><sentence id="365">and obeys rather a Gestapo order and not God's way. </sentence><sentence id="366">We have to answer, "There are also _____ people among the priest who act not according to their conscious, but according to the order received from the civil authority." </sentence><sentence id="367">But in order to replace for our use <span class="building">chapel</span> here and there when we were not specially...specially controlled by Gestapo, we formed really little group of people, and consoled each other and prayed with each other and so some little common utarian groups have been formed. </sentence><sentence id="368">And also it was...uh..for us also a joy when some priest custodian, not allowing according to the order of Gestapo enter the <span class="building">chapel</span> to...not German priest, that he has just closed his eyes and allowed us to enter. </sentence><sentence id="369">And then so from time to time it was also for us a spiritual consolation to pray and this <span class="building">chapel</span> was reserved only for German priests and...uh...well some priests were so friendly to us that they also brought to us some part of the Holy whole. </sentence><sentence id="370">You know what it means? </sentence><sentence id="371">Yes. </sentence><sentence id="372">And so we were...uh...also not only consoled by strength you see, by this sacramental help and assistance. </sentence><sentence id="373">So you must say that the German priests tried to help us also, but too many were fearful and fearful...and...for example, to such an extent, that they say, "No, I will not do it. </sentence><sentence id="374">I cannot." </sentence><sentence id="375">When I was really in <span class="populated place">Berlin</span> in the <span class="building">hospital</span> after this torture of the Holy Week then some men who took care of us sick people...uh...he, knowing that I am priest, said, "Well, if you so wish I can prepare for you perhaps the possibility to say Mass." And I said, "I would be so grateful to you, but you must ask the priest, the chaplain to give you all the instruments and say...for saying Mass. I approached the <span class="building">prison</span>, say Father and told him, "Father," I have all the opportunities for saying Mass here without being controlled by anybody in some secret place. </sentence><sentence id="376">Will you be so kind and give me everything that is necessary for celebrating." </sentence><sentence id="377">And he said, "Father, I am too afraid. </sentence><sentence id="378">Do you think that I should expose myself to go to <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>?" " </sentence><sentence id="379">Never mind." </sentence><sentence id="380">You see, we had also such sadness, such opportunities that on the one hand you had the possibility to be strengthened spiritually. </sentence><sentence id="381">On the other hand, fearful people who could help you and that chaplain was really...I would say very cranky even. </sentence><sentence id="382">He feared too much the Gestapo, and even <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="383">If really somebody is in the need spiritual...spiritual need I should help him, also if I will be exposed to some suffering. </sentence><sentence id="384">We all are members of one family. </sentence><sentence id="385">And members which should help one another. </sentence><sentence id="386">And so this spirit you see of common utarian sympathy assistance was lacking also in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>, but as a rule we must say that all the priests except those that were in the <span class="dlf">German block</span> for priests...uh...with some exception of course...all other priests tried to help each other. </sentence><sentence id="387">And...uh...so in this case, we can also understand why we have survived being helped, assisted by others, although not materially but spiritually. </sentence><sentence id="388">By this assistance, we really received new energy for survival. </sentence><sentence id="389">So then after many months...you see, at the end of 1944, we have received the privilege to receive packages from our parents. </sentence><sentence id="390">And then really we have received many packages our families. </sentence><sentence id="391">They tried to do their best in order to send us packages with the necessary...uh...food in order to strengthen us. </sentence><sentence id="392">And as a rule, Gestapo has allowed us to accept to receive all the <span class="spatial object">packages</span> and so from October 1944 til the end of the <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> on Sunday, 29th, we really became stronger people. </sentence><sentence id="393">And we may say prepared for liberty not to go from <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> even to <span class="building">hospital</span> or to some other <span class="building">institution</span>. </sentence><sentence id="394">So packages sent us by our parents really were a great blessing for us. </sentence><sentence id="395">And one thing, we priests, Polish priests, noticed that packages sent by our Mothers came intact without corruption. </sentence><sentence id="396">And then from other members of families, here and there there was food and damage by this or other conditions. </sentence><sentence id="397">And so one idea came to a priest and he composed a beautiful song in honor of our mothers and we sang, you see, this song, really giving not only our thanks but expressing our deepest affection to our mothers to our family also, but especially to our mothers. </sentence><sentence id="398">And so we, on this occasion, started also our psychology, and came to conclusion that really love for a mother is the deepest mother besides the love for a God. </sentence><sentence id="399">And then also this renewal I would say of that...uh...uh...love for our mother, with the food, really made us more normal people. </sentence><sentence id="400">And...uh.. when I was also in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> in...uh...in the <span class="building">hospital</span> for some days, one priest was dying and called, "Mother," in such despair. " </sentence><sentence id="401">My dearest Mother." </sentence><sentence id="402">I approached him and told him, "Father, be consoled. </sentence><sentence id="403">You will find the blessed mother in <span class="dlf">Heaven</span>." </sentence><sentence id="404">And he said, "Father, do you understand the deep love of a dying person fora mother?" </sentence><sentence id="405">And I said, "Well, I was not in this state of dying yet, but I understand that Mother really counts as the great consolation in the last moment of life." </sentence><sentence id="406">You see, we perhaps have not realized enough what great really strength is our love for a mother, and the love of Mother for us. </sentence><sentence id="407">Mother lives for her children. </sentence><sentence id="408">Not always children live for their mothers. </sentence><sentence id="409">But our suffering, for example, in this case in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> really renewed in us the worthiness. </sentence><sentence id="410">There is no greater love after our love for God, than the love for our mother which is not always developed, but different occasions can really develop to such an extent that it will become strength and renewed energy for us. </sentence><sentence id="411">So then came the blessed day of...uh...April 29. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="466">Q: Can we hold it a minute. </sentence><sentence id="467">I would like not to get to the liberation yet. </sentence><sentence id="468">I would like to go back for a moment. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="472">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="474">Q: You have mentioned being in the <span class="building">hospital</span> several times. </sentence><sentence id="475">Could you tell us about the events that led up to your being in the <span class="building">hospital</span> and you told me an extraordinary story before. </sentence><sentence id="476">Tell us about that. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="477">Q: You see, when we speak of the <span class="building">hospital</span> in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> or in <span class="populated place">Sachsenhausen</span> then we should not believe that the name of <span class="building">hospital</span> was identical with the conditions of a <span class="building">civilized hospital</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="479">You were there only an <span class="spatial object">instrument</span>...uh...which really received here...here and there some care, but most minimal. </sentence><sentence id="480">When you came to <span class="building">hospital</span>, then all the people who took care of the sick people believed you came here to die. </sentence><sentence id="481">And so if you didn't have the interior strength and the...the hope to survive, the little food which you have received was not able to help you to survive that. </sentence><sentence id="482">And so many people really died there and how many? </sentence><sentence id="483">Well, for example, in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> 868 Polish priests perished. </sentence><sentence id="484">Eight hundred sixty eight, and 3 of them...200 of them in the medical experiments, by torture in the <span class="building">prison</span> __. </sentence><sentence id="485">And the Polish clergy <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> order no.clergy of ordination, we were 1,718 numbers....1,718. </sentence><sentence id="486">And as I already told you, 868 were...died, and was martyred, of course. </sentence><sentence id="487">And...uh...then we must say that the...uh...priests slowly...at the end of 1944 received really some better conditions of life to such an extent that they have received also a permission that a French Bishop who was there also in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> has ordained a gentleman deacon to the priesthood. </sentence><sentence id="488">You see, unheard... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="500">Q: Did you see the ordination? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="502">A: Yes, I...we did. </sentence><sentence id="503">Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="506">Q: Okay. </sentence><sentence id="507">Please. </sentence><sentence id="508">Put...put that down. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="512">A: And it was Karla Lisner, Deacon Karl Lisner. </sentence><sentence id="513">He was ordained by the French Bishop. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="516">Q: Tell us about that ordination as you saw it. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="518">A: Well, for us it was great day not only because we witnessed the ordination of that Karl Lisner, but because we really....uh...have...have experienced some spiritual atmosphere. </sentence><sentence id="519">You see, when you are deprived of any spiritual assistance and help and ordinary conditions of human dignified life, when you take part in such a great ceremony then you are liberated really and strengthened. </sentence><sentence id="520">And perhaps in our materialistic times, we do not realize...uh...what kind of help and assistance we are losing, becoming indifferent to all the religious exercises and so on. </sentence><sentence id="521">In that...in that..-uh...<span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> when, for example, such occasions happened that we had the possibility to assist during the Mass or before the Moment in the <span class="building">chapel</span> or in this case, to be witnesses of the ordination. </sentence><sentence id="522">Oh, this was really a day of great spiritual elevation. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="528">Q: The Germans permitted this ordination? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="530">A: You see, it was already...already 1944, as I said. </sentence><sentence id="531">He was ordained...ordained by the bishop in December 44, and from October 1944, we had already better conditions because of food we have received from our families. </sentence><sentence id="532">So this is the case. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="536">Q: You had started...we sort of got off the <span class="dlf">track</span> a little bit to tell about your experience in the <span class="building">hospital</span>. </sentence><sentence id="537">How did you come to be in the <span class="building">hospital</span> in the first place? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="540">A: You see, because work in...in the <span class="building">plantation</span>, I collapsed out of exhaustion. </sentence><sentence id="541">And so I was unable to walk, to move. </sentence><sentence id="542">So the so-called Kapo, you see of that group of people in which I also worked, ordered some people to bring some...uh...uh...<span class="spatial object">car</span> that I may be transferred to the <span class="building">hospital</span>. </sentence><sentence id="543">And so I suppose that the reason, the only reason was the exhaustion. </sentence></p><p><sentence id="544">And...uh...I didn't...didn't get much medical help, but I had the possibility to relax, to be free from the work. </sentence><sentence id="545">And did then also after some days, the possibility to approach the other prisoners also sick and console and strengthen them. </sentence><sentence id="546">And so in some case, it was not only a blessing for me to be there in the <span class="building">hospital</span> but also for those who needed also some advice, some help, some encouragement and so on because many sick people out of exhaustion, of being deprived of any assistance, help and encouragement died. </sentence><sentence id="547">Or if they didn't die, they die yet, then they were more murdered and burned in the <span class="building">crematorium</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="548">Q: You had said also you were in the <span class="building">hospital</span> another time for your legs. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="549">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="550">That's right. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="553">Q: Could you tell us about that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="555">A: Uh...This was just only some hour in which I was there. </sentence><sentence id="556">There had seen what happened and given me some...uh...] would say means to stop the blood and so on and to cover all the wounds. </sentence><sentence id="557">I was there really for some hours to get some help, some assistance, but you see if you...if you did then have some inner strength and I would say...uh...desire to survive and to overcome all sufferings...also the very little sickness would you suffer, brought you to <span class="building">crematorium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="558">You see when you speak of <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>, then you just cannot think of normal conditions of human life. </sentence><sentence id="559">The more so of the proper conditions in the <span class="building">hospitals</span>. </sentence><sentence id="560">They had to reopen also <span class="building">hospitals</span> you see because well the human eye needed it and international opinion also. </sentence><sentence id="561">So many, so many, I would say, people knew about all these things and conditions in the <span class="populated place">concentration camps</span>, then they just try also to visit or show here we also <span class="building">hospital</span> we care of the sick people, but the visitors didn't have any possibility to talk with us, to speak to us, to ask how do you feel. </sentence><sentence id="562">And on the day if some visit was...uh...really programmed in the <span class="building">hospital</span>, then they have prepared better food, for the eyes you see. </sentence><sentence id="563">But really inhuman conditions. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="573">Q: Tell us about that. </sentence><sentence id="574">Were you...uh...ever beaten and tortured in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="577">A: You see, not tortured but perhaps not taken care of. </sentence><sentence id="578">This was the case. </sentence><sentence id="579">And so, for example, if...if 1 was weak because of exhaustion, then they have not tortured me there in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="580">Perhaps because I was priest. </sentence><sentence id="581">But they didn't assist me. </sentence><sentence id="582">You had to just take care of yourself. </sentence><sentence id="583">And other people if they really were sick, they became victims of torture. </sentence><sentence id="584">Many, many people really just disappeared because the Gestapo inflicted such great and did suffering to them that they had to finish their life. </sentence><sentence id="585">So conditions which were not human you see, and because of this you can understand why the many also writers, as I have quoted , the French writer, why they have spoken of <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> as of the organized Hell. </sentence><sentence id="586">And many people really died and tortured in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="587">I told you about, for example, Polish priest. </sentence><sentence id="588">We were there 1,718 and 868 perished. </sentence><sentence id="589">That is to say, died. </sentence><sentence id="590">And...uh...300 of them..uh..died because of tortured suffered in the medical experiments. </sentence><sentence id="591">The doctors tried to see what they can expect from...from...uh..., for example, if the tortured such person to such an extent or another one. </sentence><sentence id="592">You see, we are experimental people. </sentence><sentence id="593">And...uh...we must say that... uh...the German priest were rather more protected than we, the priest of other nationalities and the more so lay people. </sentence><sentence id="594">But some people knew how to organize also their lives and survive in better conditions. </sentence><sentence id="595">This is the case. </sentence><sentence id="596">And so then came the day of liberation. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="617">Q: At this point, we pause. </sentence><sentence id="618">We need to pause here and we will change tapes and then we will talk about liberation. </sentence><sentence id="619"> TAPE #2 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="623">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="625">Q: Let us go back. </sentence><sentence id="626">If you would put that down. </sentence><sentence id="627">I would like to ask you now that the tape is on. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="631">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="633">Q: The questions I asked I asked you when the tape was off. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="635">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="636">Yal. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="639">Q: Uh...Could you tell me first, please, how you went about...uh...saying confession in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="641">A: You see. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="643">Q: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="644">You're on. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="647">A: We heard confession just by walking with some person who asked us for this privilege or we were hidden in some corner of the <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> because to hear confessions...you see it was really for the Gestapo some cause of a torture, and we tried to help the people that really in such way that these are became the victims of torture. </sentence><sentence id="648">And, also, during the work when we were not controlled by Gestapo, some people came to us and...uh...working a little, we have heard their confession and of course, tried to help them, strengthen them, to deepen their faith, confidence. </sentence><sentence id="649">And then, you see, one thing that you can communicate with another person and share, things which are great interest for you is most helpful, particularly in such conditions in which we lived in...in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="650">And...uh...because of this we must say and repeat again that suffering can break, but also make you. </sentence><sentence id="651">Through suffering you can benefit so much that you can have an idea of it only after you finish your way of the <span class="spatial object">cross</span>. </sentence><sentence id="652">And...uh...this is really so that we may open our eyes more fully to the mysteries of our life, to the mysteries of our destiny, and then in our Christian life to complete what is wrong thing of the suffering of Christ for us. </sentence><sentence id="653">YOu see, Christ, according to our faith, has paid the majority of the price for the ticket to Heaven, but on the condition that we also give our part that the price may be made fuller. </sentence><sentence id="654">If we are not interested in it, then the precious suffering of Christ for us, for you, for...a person is lost. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="663">Q: In <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>, how did you help comfort people? </sentence><sentence id="664">Was this legal and open in the daytime or did you have to do it illegally and secretly? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="667">A: Uh...Secretly. </sentence><sentence id="668">It was not allowed legally to bring to the people some religious comfort. </sentence><sentence id="669">You see, Nazi's most really diabolical system, trying to finish with faith, with religion and annilihate, everything what was not Hitlerism. </sentence><sentence id="670">It's a totalarian system, and then anti-Christian among the religious and no doubt that the Jewish people suffered really many losses but it was also and so because for Hitler, Judaism was a religion and then after finishing Judaism, they would like to finish Christianity. </sentence><sentence id="671">But they didn't have the possibility of it. </sentence><sentence id="672">You see there was a diabolical system : </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="679">Q: How did you go about trying to bring comfort? </sentence><sentence id="680">What did you do? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="683">A: Well, you see, first of all, then we have offered to them a promise to help if we can and this are another case because they came to also with some difficulties in their work, in their lives. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="685">Q: The other prisoners you mean? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="687">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="689">Q: Yal. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="691">A: And so if you can help me, well how and this way or anther. </sentence><sentence id="692">And then particularly to...they came to receive some spiritual help, spiritual assistance that is to say to revive their faith that we live not only here on earth. </sentence><sentence id="693">This is only prelude to our eternal happiness, which we should deserve also by our suffering. </sentence><sentence id="694">And...uh...for some people there was also the question, "Why should a God permit such suffering?" </sentence><sentence id="695">You see, why? </sentence><sentence id="696">He is God. </sentence><sentence id="697">And so we had to explain to them that suffering, as such, is a part of our life. </sentence><sentence id="698">That Hitler has brought to us such really tremendous suffering, it is really his guilt, his responsibility and for us, and the patient to suffer it as much as we can for our greater and _ You see nothing happens in the history of humankind without the permission of the of the divine providence. </sentence><sentence id="699">Nothing can happen. </sentence><sentence id="700">And so we must say, "But why God permits sufferings?" </sentence><sentence id="701">Well, this is for the cure. </sentence><sentence id="702">We should really admit it that sometimes we come in our life to such better development that no other medical, physical or spiritual, can be helpful to us except suffering because in the days and or hours of sufferings we really came to the better...uh...recognitions of our conditions of life. </sentence><sentence id="703">And there is also an importunity for the renewal of our faith. </sentence><sentence id="704">And...uh...uh...the opportunity to strength our whole. </sentence><sentence id="705">My suffering will be rewarded there. </sentence><sentence id="706">Here is a temporary only pilgrimage for me. </sentence><sentence id="707">There will be eternity. </sentence><sentence id="708">And so your faith, you see, was the greatest help in overcoming your suffering, despair, and to collapse. </sentence><sentence id="709">Without your spirit strength, it was impossible just not to collapse. </sentence><sentence id="710">Our body has very limited energy and if that body is not energized by our spirit and some reasonable explanation of your position or your suffering, then there is no hope of survival. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="731">Q: Did you come into contact with non-Christians while you were in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="733">A: Uh...Very rarely, because you see that they had separated the Jews and...uh...other Muslims, if they were there, from us. </sentence><sentence id="734">And it was only accidentally that we met, for example, some Jews or some Muslims. </sentence><sentence id="735">And otherwise you see Christian people were not so limited in their liberty to communicate as we with non-Christians. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="739">Q: Alright. </sentence><sentence id="740">You had started to tell us you...what happened as liberation approached. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="741">A: Yes. </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="742">Q: What. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="744">A: You see then in April we all remained in 45...we already heard of the victory of anti- German...uh...German soldiers, in the <span class="dlf">battlefields</span>, and it was for us also a great help and assistance for strengthening our bodies, our minds, and our lives. </sentence><sentence id="745">But slowly in April...in April, we noticed that German soldiers really are collapsing on the front, receiving here or there some information and then we have also heard that the American soldiers are approaching ____and so also <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="746">And...uh...some movement...uh...of the Gestapo people in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> on April 28 told us that really the American army is approaching. </sentence><sentence id="747">And you see all the Gestapo people and controllers of our <span class="dlf">blocks</span> left their place and we remained alone without indigilence. </sentence><sentence id="748">So we left our <span class="dlf">blocks</span>, not going to work, and tried to come to the big public place of our official reunions. </sentence><sentence id="749">And that's one moment this approaching one soldiers to the <span class="building">tower</span> and slowly, the Germans soldiers you see do not defend him to enter the <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span> knowing that they are lost already. </sentence><sentence id="750">So the first soldier, American soldier you see, who came there to <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> was a lady, and she was Miss. Margaret Higgins of <span class="building">Washington Post</span> or <span class="building">New York Times</span>, and she was such tremendously benevolent lady. </sentence><sentence id="751">We didn't recognize her as a lady and so everybody has kissed her and embraced her. </sentence><sentence id="752">She also and finally reunion, but finally, she said, "I am a lady in the sold...in the soldier's uniform," but don't fear. </sentence><sentence id="753">I am here just to help you as much as I can. </sentence><sentence id="754">And so we sang hymns of her thanksgiving to that lady. </sentence><sentence id="755">For us at that time, the great liberator. </sentence><sentence id="756">That is to say she came to us really as the representative of the American army, and after our first congratulations and songs of Hallulah...uh...other American soldiers entered <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> and what did they do?Brought many <span class="spatial object">cars</span> of food. </sentence><sentence id="757">And so we all have been invited to come and take as much as we only wished. </sentence><sentence id="758">It was a glorious day. </sentence><sentence id="759">And you see for some people it was the dangerous day because they had eaten too much and collapsed. </sentence><sentence id="760">You just cannot change your <span class="spatial object">system</span>, you see, so rapidly. </sentence><sentence id="761">But you just...uh...uh... should admit one thing. </sentence><sentence id="762">That your body is just asking you to fill it with food and food. </sentence><sentence id="763">If you have not guided your knowledge and with your mind, well you have taken too much. </sentence><sentence id="764">And then after the glorious day, we have...uh...received also the permission to prepare ourselves for leaving...uh... <span class="populated place">Dachau</span>. </sentence><sentence id="765">And what that means, you have disposal to ask. </sentence><sentence id="766">And the...the French...French... uh...Consul from <span class="populated place">Paris</span> sent really to...uh...<span class="populated place">Dachau</span> some cards and in one card they have invited me also to join them, the Parisians, and come back to <span class="populated place">Paris</span>. </sentence><sentence id="767">And so it was a victorious day. </sentence><sentence id="768">And because of the packages which I have received from my family as other prisoners do, I was strong enough just to take again my <span class="building">office</span> of Director of <span class="building">Polish Catholic Mission</span> and function there and liberate the priest who helped...suffered for me with great, really willingness to do whatever he was able to do. </sentence><sentence id="769">And so already at..uh...uh...L...I would say...at the end of Spring we really have recuperated fully and continued our work. </sentence><sentence id="770">Some people still trying to find means, for example, the Poles to come back to <span class="country">Poland</span>; other group to <span class="country">Italy</span> and so on. </sentence><sentence id="771">I was personally in this good position that I was stable to reach <span class="populated place">Paris</span>...uh...some 3 or 4 days after liberation and..uh...live my normal life. </sentence><sentence id="772">But having possibility I tried to use them to bring also help to other people in <span class="populated place">Dachau</span> and help them or assist them in their return to their places. </sentence><sentence id="773">And so Friday was the end of our real remarkable which for men became only torture one after the other, and many really ...uh...died and didn't survive to experience the date of liberation. </sentence><sentence id="774">Such is the case. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="807">Q: Indeed. </sentence><sentence id="808">If you're are in <span class="populated place">Paris</span> and your story is not over. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="811">A: Not over. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="813">Q: You're in <span class="populated place">Paris</span> and you, I gather, was not in quite <span class="populated place">Paris</span> either. </sentence><sentence id="814">The Communists didn't like you you told me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="817">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="818">You see... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="821">Q: Tell me. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="823">A: I continued my work for two years. </sentence><sentence id="824">But being free and...uh..in agreement with the French government, I tried to purify the <span class="populated place">Polish parishes</span> in <span class="country">France</span> from any Communistic influence. </sentence><sentence id="825">And...uh...to such an extent slowly...uh...uh...the General Council of Polish Communistic Government, you see, went to...uh...uh...the First Minister of French Government...uh...saying that I am just intolerable, that I persecute the peaceful people. </sentence><sentence id="826">And so some person was sent to me just to find out what is the matter. </sentence><sentence id="827">And I told him, "Well, you see, such is the case that we were not only against the Nazis, but also against Communist. </sentence><sentence id="828">And for us Communists was also intolerable. </sentence><sentence id="829">And there are so many, so many communistic delegates from <span class="country">Russia</span> to Polish groups that I had to defend our Polish citizens against this infiltration of communistic sick... sickness." </sentence><sentence id="830">And then I really never allowed to infiltrate in our Polish organization...we never allowed the communists to really bring to them some damage. </sentence><sentence id="831">And I have received the answer of the communist...the French government congratulations. </sentence><sentence id="832">Yes. </sentence><sentence id="833">The former anti-really to hide the people that they may not become victims of communists, but now you see the...no photographs here. </sentence><sentence id="834">The communists...the communists after they have not received any help from ...from French government and to pacify me, they went to the <span class="interior space">upper story</span> to delegate. </sentence><sentence id="835">And what did they do? </sentence><sentence id="836">They told him, "Your Excellency. </sentence><sentence id="837">Certainly Christianity can develop only in peaceful conditions of co- living and that this present and you must correct him or even dismiss him." </sentence><sentence id="838">And so after the...uh...uh... communistic country left, the upper story delegates, the delegate of delegate, the future Pope...uh...jumped when he heard, call me and asked, "Father, what is the matter? </sentence><sentence id="839">I have received here so many accusations that you do not allow the people to live in peace and calm." </sentence><sentence id="840">And I said, "Of course. </sentence><sentence id="841">We must now purify our ranks from communistic...communistic influence." " </sentence><sentence id="842">And what about your relationship with the Polish government?" " </sentence><sentence id="843">I do not acknowledge the communistic government and the Consul General who...uh...calls himself Polish General Consul, is for me not any representative of Polish government because this Polish government is fully and entirely strange to our Polish...uh...people. </sentence><sentence id="844">And I will never allow to...the communists to infiltrate our Polish ranks." </sentence><sentence id="845">And he said, "Well, you are responsible for your conditions of life, but try only not to offend them." </sentence><sentence id="846">And I said, "Well, the...these communists personally will never be offended by me in my conversation, in my repression, and so on." </sentence><sentence id="847">And I told the delegate, "If the communistic consul general comes to our <span class="building">church</span>...uh...to the <span class="building">Polish church</span>, I will accept him really as the faith will. </sentence><sentence id="848">I will also hear his confession. </sentence><sentence id="849">And so be sure that in the matter of religion, those communists will not be persecuted. </sentence><sentence id="850">If they would like to become really faithful to the <span class="building">church</span>, they will have all the opportunities barred to bring the communistic poison to our Polish ranks will be excluded, but you see when the communistic ambassador didn't succeed to pacify me, going to the French government, and then...uh...to the <span class="interior space">upper story</span>...to delegate, they went to the Provincial Superior of my <span class="region">Province</span> in <span class="populated place">Warsaw</span>. </sentence><sentence id="851">And they said, "If you do not dismiss Father Cegielka from the office of the Superior of <span class="building">Polish Catholic Mission</span>, we will close your <span class="building">houses</span>. </sentence><sentence id="852">And the Provincial answered, "He is not subject to me in his <span class="building">office</span>. </sentence><sentence id="853">He was nominated by the Cardinal , the Prime of the <span class="country">Poland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="854">And so I have no power. </sentence><sentence id="855">I cannot do anything." </sentence><sentence id="856">And so the communists have understood that he cannot do anything and cannot just send me away from my <span class="building">office</span>. </sentence><sentence id="857">So they went to the General and said, "If you do not dismiss this man from the <span class="building">office</span> in <span class="populated place">Paris</span>, that will be end of...uh...many priests in <span class="country">Poland</span>." </sentence><sentence id="858">And so the General...the General </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="895">Q: The General of your order? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="897">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="898">The General wrote to me saying, "Father, you see I have received such bad news that they will close many things which are dear to us. </sentence><sentence id="899">Our <span class="building">schools</span>, <span class="building">institution</span>, and so on. </sentence><sentence id="900">And perhaps it would be advisable that you will ask the Primate to...uh...free you from that <span class="building">office</span>." </sentence><sentence id="901">And so because it was the interest of the society which I belonged, I asked Primate just to free me from this <span class="building">office</span> and he...he received...has written me letter, "Father, with great really sadness, I must really give you the possibility to leave your <span class="building">office</span> of the Polish...of the Director of the Polish <span class="building">Catholic Mission</span>, but I take this with a great sorrow because you are needed so much here." </sentence><sentence id="902">So after he wrote me this letter, I really asked him to nominate his successor. </sentence><sentence id="903">And he said the best thing would be that he who has helped the Polish mission during your <span class="populated place">concentration camp</span>, may now take that...uh...<span class="building">office</span> instead of your __. </sentence><sentence id="904">You see this was the case of the decision to send me to <span class="populated place">honorary camp</span>. </sentence><sentence id="905">That is to say I was unable to go back to <span class="country">Poland</span>. </sentence><sentence id="906">Unable also to work in <span class="country">France</span> because they would...they communists would have suspicioned that I just had left...left my <span class="building">office</span>, but still not being officially called Director, I still infiltrate all the possibility...possibility sections and bring...bring really for them great losses. </sentence><sentence id="907">So the General asked me to come to <span class="populated place">Rome</span> for some months. </sentence><sentence id="908">I was helping him a little here and there, and then from <span class="country">America</span> he has received some petitions from...uh...congregations of Sisters to send some priest to <span class="country">America</span> who would give them retreats. </sentence><sentence id="909">You know what a treat is? </sentence><sentence id="910">Yes. </sentence><sentence id="911">And so he asked me whether I would go. " </sentence><sentence id="912">Of course, if you wish." </sentence><sentence id="913">And so I came to <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="914">And being here, I was invited...uh...to give retreats in many places so I was traveling from place to place. </sentence><sentence id="915">I was even asked to come to <span class="country">South Africa</span>. </sentence><sentence id="916">Twice I was there. </sentence><sentence id="917">And to <span class="country">Canada</span>. </sentence><sentence id="918">And always busy, busy _____. </sentence><sentence id="919">And after 20 years of giving retreats, you see, I had to...uh...relax because of the constant traveling and in 1968, I received the position of Proper Sorrow, of college person and then in <span class="populated place">Philadelphia</span> was teaching, and teaching the students in <span class="building">colleges</span>. </sentence><sentence id="920">I was also composing a special manuals, you see, to help them just not only to hear, but to read and when they read the material which we have explained to them and really accept some Christian education and Christian philosophy in <span class="building">college</span>. </sentence><sentence id="921">And...uh...during the last years of my teaching, I received some special privilege. </sentence><sentence id="922">That is to say, in 72 and something 70, I was nominated as outstanding educator of <span class="country">America</span>, a honor for me. </sentence><sentence id="923">Yes. </sentence><sentence id="924">And...uh...then I had to stay with my society ____, and I now am the Director of <span class="building">Infant Jesus Shrine</span>. </sentence><sentence id="925">That is to say some charter to which come pilgrimages...uh...and get also some spiritual help. </sentence><sentence id="926">So this would be the end. </sentence><sentence id="927">Thank you so very kindly. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="960">Q: Father, thank you very, very much. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="962">A: Thank you so much. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="964">Q: You are very special. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="966">A: Thank you for renewed thanks and for your patience. </sentence><sentence id="967"> </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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