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layout: transcript |
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interviewee: helene none baraf |
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rg_number: rg-50.030.0015 |
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pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0015_trs_en.pdf |
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ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504452 |
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gender: f |
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birth_date: 1927-07-24 |
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birth_year: 1927.0 |
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place_of_birth: antwerp |
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country: berlgium |
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experience_group: survivor |
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ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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ghetto: none |
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camp(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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camp: none |
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non_ss_camp: none |
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region: none |
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needs_research: none |
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data_entry: cl |
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accession: 1990.361 |
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revisit: none |
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tags: transcripts |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1">Q: Please tell us your name, where you were born, and when you were born? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3">A: My name is Helene Baraf, named <span class="populated place">Zupnik</span>. </sentence><sentence id="4">I am born in <span class="populated place">Antwerp</span>, <span class="country">Belgium</span>, the 24th of July 1927. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="7">Q: Tell us about your family and your childhood before the war. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="9">A: Uh...I will start to tell you a little bit about my...uh... ancestors. </sentence><sentence id="10">Uh...1 come from two very famous branches... uh...of...uh...the Jewish religion. </sentence><sentence id="11">My great grand uncle was...uh...Rabbi Meisels (ph) who has a <span class="building">synagogue</span> named ... uh...after him in <span class="populated place">Prague</span> and on my father's side I have Rabbi Dovelando (ph), who was very famous too, who has another <span class="building">synagogue</span> named...uh...after him. </sentence><sentence id="12">Uh...my mother came from a very religious family. </sentence><sentence id="13">She had four brothers and four sisters. </sentence><sentence id="14">And...uh...she was the only who survived the Holocaust, and they all had many, many children because that was the way of life in that time. </sentence><sentence id="15">And...uh...she was already...uh...an older person when she met my....my father who came from <span class="country">Czechoslovakia</span> and she accepted to...to marry him after refusing many, many suitors. </sentence><sentence id="16">And...uh...they lived in <span class="populated place">Krakow</span> for one year...uh...where my brother was born in 1924, in July 26, 1924. </sentence><sentence id="17">And after the...they stayed uncast. </sentence><sentence id="18">That means that....uh...her brother was...uh... keeping them for a year where my father...when my father was studying. </sentence><sentence id="19">And then after the time was gone, they came to <span class="country">Belgium</span> where I was born the 24th of July 1927. </sentence><sentence id="20">Uh... grew up there, and we lived...uh...nicely. </sentence><sentence id="21">My father and my mother...in the beginning were working in the <span class="building">diamonds business</span>. </sentence><sentence id="22">She was a Schleifer which means she was, I don't know how to say that in English...she...they were...he...she was not a cutter. </sentence><sentence id="23">A Schleifer is what a polisher...a diamond polisher and...uh...little by little my father became...uh...courtier. </sentence><sentence id="24">Is that an English word? </sentence><sentence id="25"><span class="building">Courtier</span>? </sentence><sentence id="26">Uh...He was selling for other diamonds and...uh...uh...life became easier and...uh...I was going as a child in...uh...in the...and my first language was French so I went to <span class="building">grammar school</span> in <span class="country">Belgium</span> and on Wednesday afternoon and Sunday morning I went to <span class="building">Jewish school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="27">My brother went to a <span class="building">Jewish school</span> for...uh...the whole day where he learned Hebrew and Jewish and...uh...French and Flemish. </sentence><sentence id="28">Uh...in..in 1940 when I finished...uh...no...let's go back to 1937...uh...when I came to <span class="country">American</span>. </sentence><sentence id="29">To tell you the story why we came to <span class="country">America</span> is because...uh...by great grandfather died here in <span class="country">America</span> in 1936. </sentence><sentence id="30">They came, I think, after the First World War here with all the children but my grandmother was already married in...uh...in <span class="country">Czechoslovakia</span> so she was...uh...I think she was the oldest daughter. </sentence><sentence id="31">So she remained with her husband and her children there in <span class="country">Czechoslovakia</span>. </sentence><sentence id="32">This is why I have...uh...in reality I am a third generation already American because... uh...my family is here. </sentence><sentence id="33">So my father came here to <span class="country">America</span> to...for the question of the inheritance. </sentence><sentence id="34">And he liked it so much because he found all the family here that he didn't know. </sentence><sentence id="35">His cousins, his uncles...uh...it was...uh...very happy situation for him. </sentence><sentence id="36">So he wanted to immigrate. </sentence><sentence id="37">And we immigrated really to <span class="country">America</span> in September of 37. </sentence><sentence id="38">For me as a child it was a shock because it was in the depression era and...uh...we lived in the <span class="region">low east side</span>. </sentence><sentence id="39">This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="40">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="41"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection We...compared to what...how we lived in <span class="populated place">New York</span> or...in <span class="populated place">Antwerp</span>, was a big difference. </sentence><sentence id="42">It was a misery compared to that. </sentence><sentence id="43">And...uh...although I...I loved to be with all these cousins that I didn't know but...uh...unfortunately they send me to <span class="building">school</span>...uh...as a....with the beginners. </sentence><sentence id="44">I was already 10 at the time and it was very hard for me because I didn't spoke the language. </sentence><sentence id="45">My brother, who was three years older, and finished already <span class="building">grammar school</span>, immediately entered to <span class="building">high school</span> and instead to be in the sixth...I don't know...in the first year, they sent him immediately in the third grade. </sentence><sentence id="46">I don't know to compare that with the American. </sentence><sentence id="47">So he was very happy. </sentence><sentence id="48">I was very unhappy here, and I cried a lot and...uh...it...because it was a very difficult time at that time with the depression and my...my mother and father had a lot of difficulties making out. </sentence><sentence id="49">So we came to the conclusion that...uh...maybe it would be easier for my father if we send...we went back...uh...to <span class="populated place">Antwerp</span> and...uh...this is what they decided to do. </sentence><sentence id="50">We went...me and my brother and my mother, we went back to <span class="populated place">Antwerp</span> and my father stayed here in <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="51">My mother was from...uh...the...from <span class="region">Galicia</span>, and she spoke a beautiful Polish and beautiful German and she was great admir... admirer of...uh...of German poetry from Heine and...uh...and she sang German Lieders to me, so I... never studied German, but I do speak and I do understand it. </sentence><sentence id="52">And...uh... she never believed that...uh....German with their culture could do anything to the Jews she said. </sentence><sentence id="53">Although we saw all the people coming from <span class="country">Germany</span> in 1939, she said...but...it's not so terrible. </sentence><sentence id="54">My father was very scared because he heard all the rumors and he came to bring us back to <span class="country">America</span> in September of 39. </sentence><sentence id="55">And my mother refused to go back to <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="56">She said, "Not back and forth. </sentence><sentence id="57">You come back to...to <span class="country">Europe</span>." </sentence><sentence id="58">My father said, "No," so he stayed in <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="59">So unfortunately because of this..-uh...dispute between them we stayed in <span class="country">Belgium</span>. </sentence><sentence id="60">Uh...The German invaded <span class="country">Belgium</span> in the beginning of May. </sentence><sentence id="61">I think...uh...around the 10th of May...I cannot know exactly...uh...and 10 days later we...my mother decided we cannot stay. </sentence><sentence id="62">Uh...It was the war. </sentence><sentence id="63">So we took some of our possessions and we took the <span class="spatial object">train</span> direction of <span class="country">France</span>. </sentence><sentence id="64">The <span class="spatial object">train</span> was stopped at the...uh...I don't know how you say that. </sentence><sentence id="65">At the <span class="dlf">frontier</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="125">Q: At the <span class="dlf">border</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="127">A: At the <span class="dlf">border</span>. </sentence><sentence id="128">And...uh...we couldn't take...uh...although we had little...few <span class="spatial object">suitcases</span> and we started to go across the <span class="dlf">border</span> and walk in...because we didn't know where we wanted to go, but as far as possible. </sentence><sentence id="129">And we started to walk through <span class="populated place">Moucron</span>. </sentence><sentence id="130">I remember the <span class="dlf">border</span> was <span class="populated place">Moucron</span>, and we walked with the <span class="spatial object">suitcases</span> and with a lot of other people who were stopped there too who...and we went to <span class="populated place">Amiens</span>, to <span class="populated place">Cambrai</span> and...uh...it took us about two weeks under the bombing...the uh...the German with...uh... How do you say that their...their <span class="spatial object">planes</span> they were...uh...shooting at us and we were...had to run in the...uh...in the <span class="dlf">ditches</span> for...for protection and a lot of people were killed in front of us. </sentence><sentence id="131">But...uh...finally we arrived in <span class="populated place">Lille</span> where they put us in a <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="132">No, it was more a <span class="building">college</span>, a <span class="building">college</span> where they had <span class="building">dormitory</span> and where we slept and we stayed there for a month. </sentence><sentence id="133">And...uh...then the German occupied all <span class="country">France</span>, so we had to go to...towards...uh... normal life. </sentence><sentence id="134">So we...my mother rented an <span class="interior space">apartment</span> in <span class="populated place">Lille</span>. </sentence><sentence id="135">I remember it was <span class="building">rue Solferino 142</span>. </sentence><sentence id="136">It's funny how my memory can remember certain things and ___ others. </sentence><sentence id="137"><span class="dlf">Rue Solferino 142</span>, and not far from there, I had my <span class="building">high school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="138">And my husband went to his <span class="building">high school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="139">And...uh...my mother had a little This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="140">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="141"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.030*15 3 money so for a time things were alright. </sentence><sentence id="142">We lived...uh...and...uh...and days went by and the years went by because it was from May 40 til...[ cannot say exactly when the Germans started to do all the miseries. </sentence><sentence id="143">I think it was from...uh...the beginning of <span class="populated place">42</span>. </sentence><sentence id="144">Uh...they asked us to register as Jew. </sentence><sentence id="145">We were forced to wear the...the Jewish...uh...star and...uh...we obeyed what we were...uh...uh...we're supposed to do and...uh...life went on. </sentence><sentence id="146">Unfortunately, my...my brother had a birthday in July 42 and for his birthday my mother bought...brought... bought him...uh...a trench coat. </sentence><sentence id="147">And...uh...this trench coat, unfortunately, cost him his life because...uh....the Jews were forced to...couldn't go where they wanted in a <span class="building">cafe</span>. </sentence><sentence id="148">There was one <span class="building">cafe</span> where the Jews could go and where they gathered. </sentence><sentence id="149">And...uh...my...uh....my brother was a very quiet boy and very shy and very straightforward, very honest...uh...no haughtiness. </sentence><sentence id="150">Uh...he played there...him with his friend, he played chess there. </sentence><sentence id="151">And one day when he was playing there...uh...the guy of the Gestapo came and asked...uh...to whom does belong that trenchcoat. </sentence><sentence id="152">And my father..my brother stupidly answered, "It's mine." </sentence><sentence id="153">And...uh...there was no Jewish...uh...cross...uh...Star of David on it, so they took him to <span class="building">jail</span>. </sentence><sentence id="154">My mother immediately went to the <span class="building">Gestapo</span>. </sentence><sentence id="155">She saw the guy of the Gestapo, and begged him to release him and say...telling him it was his birthday. </sentence><sentence id="156">It's a mistake. </sentence><sentence id="157">He had it on his suit, the Star of David, but not on the coat so. </sentence><sentence id="158">But nothing doing. </sentence><sentence id="159">They...they wouldn't release him. </sentence><sentence id="160">Uh...he stayed in <span class="building">jail</span> in <span class="populated place">Loos</span>. </sentence><sentence id="161">It's a section of <span class="populated place">Lille</span>, and from there they sent him to...through <span class="country">Belgium</span>, to <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span>. </sentence><sentence id="162">There were a few of them that were taken at the same day. </sentence><sentence id="163">And I know well that he was in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz</span> because one of the guys who was taken together with him came back, and he told me that he was well liked with the German...they liked him because he...he has such a serious...uh...he was a serious nature, so he did whatever he had to do. </sentence><sentence id="164">And he was alive til July 1944 because...uh...he saw him at that time and then he...they were separated, and he doesn't know what happened to him. </sentence><sentence id="165">He was in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz- Birkenau</span>, and he gave me his number, but I cannot remember it. </sentence><sentence id="166">He...uh...I know that for a fact that he was waiting because he was born in <span class="country">Poland</span>, but he was very little...a baby when he came to <span class="country">Belgium</span> so he didn't know the family. </sentence><sentence id="167">So he was waiting... uh...all the family there, and he introduced himself to the family so he...he learned to know his family...and between them was a cousin who...who...to whom he told that he came from <span class="populated place">Lille</span> and...uh...and that we...me and my mother, we were there. </sentence><sentence id="168">So after the war, this cousin by accident met...uh...a girl from <span class="populated place">Antwerp</span> and...uh...uh...he himself was the son of a very extremely rich man who had <span class="building">buildings</span> and...and...uh...uh...<span class="dlf">petroleam pit</span>.... I don't know how you call that...uh...so he sold something and...uh...because he...he couldn't take the money so he bought some gold and put it in his shoe and because he didn't want to go directly to <span class="populated place">Antwerp</span>, he came through <span class="country">France</span> and was looking a way to go through the...uh...<span class="dlf">frontier</span>. </sentence><sentence id="169">And when he passed <span class="populated place">Lille</span>, he remembered...he remembered that he had an aunt there, so he went to the <span class="populated place">Jewish community</span> and asked if there was a Mrs. Zupnik here. </sentence><sentence id="170">And he found us. </sentence><sentence id="171">And he told us that he saw my brother there in the concentration, but he lost him also in 44, and he doesn't know what happened to him. </sentence><sentence id="172">Uh...and he went to live in <span class="populated place">Antwerp</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="221">Q: Tell us what happened to you and your mother after your brother was taken. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="223"> This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="224">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="225"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection </sentence></p><p><sentence id="226"> USHMM Archives RG-50.030*15 4 </sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="227">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="228">Because...uh...my mother went to the <span class="building">German Gestapo</span>, she was scared to do anything because she thought if she would escape...she would run away, there would be retaliation against him. </sentence><sentence id="229">So we stayed. </sentence><sentence id="230">We continued for one month our life and on the evening of Yom Kippur in...uh....in very early in the morning, two men of the Gestapo came into our <span class="building">house</span> and...uh...took us. </sentence><sentence id="231">My mother put some stuff, some money away, and gave it to the...the lady...uh...where we lived to put it way in case...uh... uh...we escaped...uh...we wouldn't be without anything. </sentence><sentence id="232">So, but the story that happened is really like a miracle. </sentence><sentence id="233">We went to the...uh...<span class="dlf">railroad</span>. </sentence><sentence id="234">The German took us to the <span class="dlf">railroad</span> where there were about 3,000 families...Jewish family were there and...uh...from the early morning. </sentence><sentence id="235">It was a very hot day. </sentence><sentence id="236">We stayed...uh...there at the <span class="dlf">railroad</span> waiting what the German would do with us. </sentence><sentence id="237">And I saw a lot of people because it was the eve of the holidays, they went to their <span class="building">homes</span> and brought back chicken and food and it was like an entertainment party, and suddenly I see my mother and she said, "Come. </sentence><sentence id="238">Come. </sentence><sentence id="239">We have to go somewhere." </sentence><sentence id="240">And she says...and I said, "No, I...I have my friends here. </sentence><sentence id="241">I want to stay here." </sentence><sentence id="242">Said, "Come. </sentence><sentence id="243">Come. </sentence><sentence id="244">Come. </sentence><sentence id="245">You have to come." </sentence><sentence id="246">So I followed my mother and we were taken to a <span class="interior space">room</span>...uh...a very tiny <span class="interior space">room</span>. </sentence><sentence id="247">We were about 13 persons there. </sentence><sentence id="248">And the <span class="dlf">door</span> they put wood on the <span class="dlf">door</span> so the Germans wouldn't know that <span class="interior space">room</span> existed. </sentence><sentence id="249">After awhile, we heard...uh...the <span class="spatial object">train</span>...uh...leaving and the whole place was very quiet because...uh...3,000 people do a lot of noise. </sentence><sentence id="250">And we stayed there and it was a very scary night because we had a few...a few men who were very nervous. </sentence><sentence id="251">There was a <span class="dlf">window</span> and we heard the Gestapo walking back and forth. </sentence><sentence id="252">And...uh...I was...uh, I was already 14 at the time. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="279">Q: Who...who came to your mother? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="281">A: A man...a man of the <span class="interior space">underground</span>. </sentence><sentence id="282">And he asked her, "Do you want to be saved?" </sentence><sentence id="283">And my mother said, "Yes." </sentence><sentence id="284">And as a matter of fact I asked my mother later, "How come that you decide to...to be saved because you were scared...uh...that something would happen." </sentence><sentence id="285">Well...then she answered me, "I realized at that time there was nothing any more to be lost because they were taking us so I wanted to save you and myself." </sentence><sentence id="286">And so we were...uh...put in that <span class="interior space">room</span> and men are men...very selfish...some people start to...want to smoke cigarettes and they put the lights and the matches and we were scared...uh...terribly because...uh...they could see the lights. </sentence><sentence id="287">So we stayed...uh...in..uh...all night there. </sentence><sentence id="288">I think around | o'clock men came through the <span class="dlf">window</span>. </sentence><sentence id="289">They put a <span class="spatial object">ladder</span> at the <span class="dlf">window</span> and they took us out. </sentence><sentence id="290">And since that time we were taken over by the <span class="interior space">underground</span>. </sentence><sentence id="291">They took us...which is...uh..very curious story. </sentence><sentence id="292">And it is an explanation. </sentence><sentence id="293">They took us to a <span class="building">whore house</span> because this where people who were...the whores. </sentence><sentence id="294">I didn't know, but they have very big hearts. </sentence><sentence id="295">They (pause)...they are known for that...that...that they will do lot of things for...to save people. </sentence><sentence id="296">And we stayed in a <span class="building">whore house</span> for a few days, and we saw the <span class="interior space">underground</span> coming back with guns and all things and it was a very scary story. </sentence><sentence id="297">And then they came back with ...uh...false identification for me and my mother and for the other peoples and we were separated. </sentence><sentence id="298">And I, as a girl, young girl, I could go to a <span class="building">convent</span>. </sentence><sentence id="299">My mother could not, unfortunate, for her. </sentence><sentence id="300">So she had to go on her own and...uh...it was very painful. </sentence><sentence id="301">She told me that many times she slept in the <span class="dlf">streets</span>. </sentence><sentence id="302">She had no where to go. </sentence><sentence id="303">She was in the hiding and for her, the situation was worse This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="304">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="305"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.030*15 5 because she went to the Gestapo and they knew her face. </sentence><sentence id="306">And she had the false identification. </sentence><sentence id="307">Uh...they gave me the name... kept my...uh...my...uh...real date of birth because I was scared to...uh...to be mixed up, and I became Helene Delcombre. </sentence><sentence id="308">And...uh...I went to the <span class="building">convent</span> and...uh...they were very nice to us and L...uh...my mother was...uh...worried because I was going to <span class="building">high school</span> and for her the studies was a very important thing so she made me...uh... subscribe at a <span class="building">school</span> where you could send..uh...<span class="building">correspondence school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="309">But it wasn't working. </sentence><sentence id="310">And I stayed there from...from September til...I think a little bit after the Easter holidays. </sentence><sentence id="311">Then from...and...uh...I heard a lot of times that the German were coming in...uh...the <span class="building">convent</span> looking for Jewish children. </sentence><sentence id="312">There I met a lot of other Jewish children and I met a girl that I knew and I know a lot of babies were taken. </sentence><sentence id="313">A lot of people of saved that we don't know about it but...uh...uh....one person were telling the other. </sentence><sentence id="314">Just by ear we found out that..uh...that the French people were extraordinary. </sentence><sentence id="315">And...uh...to them when they...when the people say that they were anti- Semites, they didn't even know what it was to be Jewish. </sentence><sentence id="316">They thought we were....uh...like...uh...des <span class="populated place">Auvergnats</span>." </sentence><sentence id="317">They were cheap with the money. </sentence><sentence id="318">It's a part of section of <span class="country">France</span> where people are very... don't know the right expression...one penny is a penny. </sentence><sentence id="319">They don't want to spend it. </sentence><sentence id="320">So they thought Jews are like these people. </sentence><sentence id="321">So to say that they were anti-Semite, it's the wrong thing because they didn't even know that...uh...what exactly is a Jew and physically the Jews looked like I and my mother who comes from an extremely religious fam...family. </sentence><sentence id="322">She looks like a Polish girl, like a Polish peasant with..-uh...the cheeks and the nose. </sentence><sentence id="323">Uh...it's amazing. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="371">Q: What was life like daily in the <span class="building">convent</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="373">A: In the <span class="building">convent</span>? </sentence><sentence id="374">I was supposed to have the normal life from the children. </sentence><sentence id="375">I was not supposed...I didn't tell no one that...uh...only one girl that I knew from the outside. </sentence><sentence id="376">I recognized her. </sentence><sentence id="377">The other children didn't know that I had to conform to the rules. </sentence><sentence id="378">I had to go everyday to <span class="populated place">Mass</span> with the...I...l was doing except I didn't take...uh...I don't know...the...uh...1 didn't take the whole __ because I didn't go to <span class="building">confession</span>. </sentence><sentence id="379">But except of this, I was doing exactly like the...uh...the other girls because...-uh...I didn't want to attract attention...uh...to whom I was. </sentence><sentence id="380">I was normal to do exactly like the other children. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="389">Q: And what did you do during the day? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="391">A: Well, early morning we went to Mass. Uh...They were children that...uh...uh...uh...our Lady of the Good Shepherd...that was the <span class="building">convent</span> that I went..and there were children that...uh...had thing...they were children how...I don't know how to say that. </sentence><sentence id="392">That did things that were not right. </sentence><sentence id="393">They were...or vagrant or children that did things that were not...uh...right for children to do. </sentence><sentence id="394">The rebellious children...uh...were...but they were very young. </sentence><sentence id="395">Some...uh...some were from...uh...the age of six til...uh... til..uh...16 because...uh...16 you are...in <span class="country">France</span> you could work. </sentence><sentence id="396">So.... " People from the <span class="region">French region</span> of <span class="populated place">Auvergne</span> This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="397">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="398"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.030*15 6 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="409">Q: How did you get along with the other children? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="411">A: Very well because...uh...why not? ( </sentence><sentence id="412">Chuckle) I am a French girl like every French girl and I don't look Jewish at all. </sentence><sentence id="413">Nobody could...uh...guess...uh...anything and I...and I was smart enough...uh...not to talk about this things. </sentence><sentence id="414">Uh... went to Mass. I ate. </sentence><sentence id="415">I...uh...L..uh...we had...uh... religious... uh...blessings...uh...1 did whatever the other children...we did...uh...some work...uh...some hand knitting, some...uh... embroideries. </sentence><sentence id="416">Whatever the other children did, I did. </sentence><sentence id="417">And...uh...a little bit I did some <span class="building">school</span> by correspondence, but it wasn't good. </sentence><sentence id="418">So my mother decided that I had to go back to <span class="building">high school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="419">So then we were taken over by the <span class="building">Protestant community</span>. </sentence><sentence id="420">Uh...I remember the name was Mr. Pausch, and this was in...I was staying in <span class="populated place">Lille</span>, and this was in <span class="populated place">Roubaix</span> which was... uh...there were three <span class="populated place">cities</span> around <span class="populated place">Lille</span>, <span class="populated place">Roubaix</span>, <span class="populated place">Tourcoing</span>, which were about...uh...half an hour distant one of the other. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="431">Q: Did you see your mother often? </sentence><sentence id="432">How did you get from the <span class="building">convent</span> to the <span class="populated place">Protestant community</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="435">A: I never went out from the <span class="building">convent</span>...uh...unless I had an operation from the <span class="dlf">amigdales</span>. </sentence><sentence id="436">How do you say that? </sentence><sentence id="437">How do you say that. </sentence><sentence id="438">I had to have the...uh... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="443">Q: Tonsils? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="445">A: The tonsils removed. </sentence><sentence id="446">That's the only time I went out. </sentence><sentence id="447">My mother came to see me and brought me food. </sentence><sentence id="448">I don't know how she did it, but...uh...she still found the time to and the money to give me...uh...because it was...uh...very very hard time. </sentence><sentence id="449">We were eating bread with...uh...sawdust in the bread. </sentence><sentence id="450">It was...uh...very bad bread. </sentence><sentence id="451">The food was terrible. </sentence><sentence id="452">It was war, and many times we had...uh...we heard <span class="spatial object">English plane</span> coming and bombing. </sentence><sentence id="453">It was war. </sentence><sentence id="454">It wasn't... uh..easy time for no one and... So she decided I should go to <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="455">So she...I don't know how she found out the <span class="populated place">Protestant community</span>, and they gave us some lodging somewhere outside of <span class="populated place">Roubaix</span> and I was enrolled in the <span class="building">Roubaix High School</span>. </sentence><sentence id="456">It was very difficult thing because in that <span class="building">school</span> I met a girl that I was in <span class="building">school</span> in <span class="populated place">Lille</span> and she knew my real name. </sentence><sentence id="457">And suddenly from <span class="building">Helene Zupnik</span>, I became Helene Delcombre. </sentence><sentence id="458">And I didn't know how to do it. </sentence><sentence id="459">I was young. </sentence><sentence id="460">I was 15 years old and I was very childish at the time. </sentence><sentence id="461">But then I had an idea. </sentence><sentence id="462">I knew she was...uh...a scout. </sentence><sentence id="463">So I took her on the side, and I told her, "You know I want to tell you a story, but you have to tell...to swear me on your scout's honor that you will not tell nobody...uh ...what's the true story. </sentence><sentence id="464">I am a Jewish girl, and I have false identification paper and nobody's supposed to know it." </sentence><sentence id="465">She said, "Don't worry. </sentence><sentence id="466">I will not tell anyone." </sentence><sentence id="467">And the irony is that I didn't know that at the time, but that girl herself was half Jewish. </sentence><sentence id="468">And so...uh... uh...I stayed in that <span class="building">school</span>...uh...til the end of the war. </sentence><sentence id="469">But I didn't stay...you see the thing is that every day life to be in...uh...people get tired to be...uh...helpful to others. </sentence><sentence id="470">You know it's not easy to take the...uh...uh...the mother and the daughter. </sentence><sentence id="471">They live and after awhile, the cohabitation with that person was difficult so we had to move and my This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="472">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="473"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.030*15 7 mother found a place in <span class="populated place">Tourcoing</span>. </sentence><sentence id="474">She found a lot...a very miserable place, but we didn't have where to go so we were happy to go there. </sentence><sentence id="475">And I continued to go to <span class="populated place">Roubaix</span>. </sentence><sentence id="476">And...uh...1 spoke to that girl because...uh... she...she...she was the only knew...one who knew her...my identify and I told her, "You know, we are living in <span class="populated place">Tourcoing</span> in a miserable place and with the bombing all the time and the cold. </sentence><sentence id="477">We didn't have what to heat." </sentence><sentence id="478">So she came her...her parents were very rich, extremely rich. </sentence><sentence id="479">Uh...uh...Her father was a kind of...uh...nobility and she said...she spoke to her parents and she said, "You know what? </sentence><sentence id="480">I have an idea. </sentence><sentence id="481">I will take you in my...uh...we have the <span class="building">gardener's house</span> there. </sentence><sentence id="482">And she presented me to her mother and her father who were very nice and she took me out...in their <span class="building">house</span> where we stayed til the liberation. </sentence><sentence id="483">And they never told us what they really were. </sentence><sentence id="484">After the war in December of 44, I had the surprise of a cousin who came and found me there. </sentence><sentence id="485">His name was Jerry Balomich from...uh...he lives in (pause)...at the time he lived in <span class="populated place">Brooklyn</span>. </sentence><sentence id="486">And he found me. </sentence><sentence id="487">By miracle. </sentence><sentence id="488">How he found me, he first looked at the first <span class="building">high school</span>, and he met somebody that I met a few days before who I told I was going to the Lycee of <span class="populated place">Roubaix</span> and it's unbelievable, but he found me. </sentence><sentence id="489">Then...uh...he could report to my father that we were alive. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="537">Q: Had you had no contact with your father at this point? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="539">A: I received...uh...a letter of the <span class="building">Red Cross</span> in...in 1941 from my father. </sentence><sentence id="540">That's the only contact I had. </sentence><sentence id="541">So he knew we were alive in 41, but afterwards he didn't know. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="545">Q: What happened after the liberation? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="547">A: ..happy time and we were waiting that...uh..my brother would come back and my father was writing. </sentence><sentence id="548">He said we should come to <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="549">And my mother said, "Yes, but I have to wait first that my...uh...son comes back." </sentence><sentence id="550">And we went to <span class="populated place">Paris</span> to the different organization...organization to find out if...if he was still alive and he was coming back, but we never...uh...we never got any news about him and we never knew except by...by these two witness who came back who told me that they...he was in <span class="populated place">Auschwitz-Birkenau</span>, where he was alive til July 44. </sentence><sentence id="551">Then I have no...no other news and...uh...he never came back. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="557">Q: You said your husband was in <span class="building">high school</span> with you. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="559">A: My husband. </sentence><sentence id="560">No. </sentence><sentence id="561">My husband came from <span class="populated place">Rumania</span>. </sentence><sentence id="562">How could he come here? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="567">Q: No. </sentence><sentence id="568">That's what I wondered. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="571">A: No, no, no. </sentence><sentence id="572">No, no, no. </sentence><sentence id="573">Uh...no no. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="577">Q: Okay. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="579">A: Do you want to know more about my life afterwards? </sentence><sentence id="580">This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="581">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="582"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.030*15 8 </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="588">Q: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="589">Tell me about the...the early years after the war. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="592">A: After the war I continued to go to <span class="building">high school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="593">And...uh... my father was much younger than my mother. </sentence><sentence id="594">And he was a very religious Jew and...uh...because he lost his son he wanted to have another son. </sentence><sentence id="595">So it was very important for him so and because she couldn't bear any children, he divorced my mother and...uh...I remained...uh...in <span class="country">France</span> and he remained in...in <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="596">And it was a terrible shock to me. </sentence><sentence id="597">I went into a deep depression because of that and...uh...1 couldn't study anymore. </sentence><sentence id="598">And...uh...I got married very early. </sentence><sentence id="599">In 19...in December 1948 and I had a daughter and in 51...uh...when my father died, I couldn't stand my husband anymore. </sentence><sentence id="600">And I divorced him. </sentence><sentence id="601">And in 56, I met my second husband who came from <span class="country">Israel</span> and...uh...we moved to <span class="populated place">Paris</span> and we start a new life. </sentence><sentence id="602">Unfortunately, in ...uh...June 18, 1959, a <span class="spatial object">car</span> struck my daughter and she died the same day. </sentence><sentence id="603">And life goes on. </sentence><sentence id="604">And...uh...my husband always dreamed of <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="605">Uh...As soon as he became French in...uh...in 66, the first thing he did, he came to visit <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="606">He had...he...he also was a third generation of <span class="country">America</span>. </sentence><sentence id="607">His grandfather came here from <span class="populated place">Rumania</span> to...to <span class="country">Israel</span> where he wasn't successful and then he came to <span class="country">America</span> and <span class="country">Canada</span> because it was difficult at that time to come to <span class="country">America</span> from <span class="country">Canada</span>. </sentence><sentence id="608">They went to <span class="populated place">Philadelphia</span>. </sentence><sentence id="609">And...uh...he loved <span class="country">America</span> too when he came to visit in 66. </sentence><sentence id="610">And...uh...in <span class="populated place">69</span> we came. </sentence><sentence id="611">In June, as a matter of fact, the same day as my daughter died. </sentence><sentence id="612">June 18, 1969 we came to <span class="country">America</span>, and we became American citizens. </sentence><sentence id="613">My husband died in...uh...May 29, 1980, and...uh...I remained alone. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="636">Q: Have you...uh...made contact with your family. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="638">A: Oh sure. </sentence><sentence id="639">Oh sure. </sentence><sentence id="640">I was...uh...accept{ed] with open arms. </sentence><sentence id="641">I'm _ the...prodigal...prodigal child...uh...because...uh...coming back to the...they knew me as a child. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="646">Q: Do you have family here? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="648">A: Unfortunately, most of them died now and...uh...now I am alone...uh...and it's very hard. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="650">Q: All right. </sentence><sentence id="651">Thank you. </sentence><sentence id="652">Was it so hard as you thought? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="656">A: When you start you...it goes, it flows. ( </sentence><sentence id="657">laughter) It is...uh...something very funny that...uh...it's tragic comedy at the same time. </sentence><sentence id="658">Uh...the lady who accepted her... us to stay in her gardener's <span class="building">house</span> was very nice to us and said goodbye to us when we moved away and we lived in another section of <span class="populated place">Lille</span>. </sentence><sentence id="659">And...uh...over the years we lost contact with her. </sentence><sentence id="660">But when I got married, my mother got very ill, and she couldn't stay by herself and in <span class="populated place">Paris</span> we lived in a very small <span class="interior space">apartment</span> and we couldn't...uh...keep her with us. </sentence><sentence id="661">So she went to the <span class="building">Rothschild Institution</span> and she was accepted there. </sentence><sentence id="662">There she met a gentleman that she liked very much because he was a German Jew and she spoke a perfect German, so she found her alter ego. </sentence><sentence id="663">And...uh...it was a little love affair. </sentence><sentence id="664">He was (laughter) already 84 and she was in her...in her early 60s, so she was a beauty for him. </sentence><sentence id="665">And...uh...it This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="666">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="667"> http://collections.ushmm.org Contact [email protected] for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.030*15 9 was by an irony...by a twist of fate, this gentleman was the uncle of the mother of my friend in <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="668">So then I found out...uh...10 years later that the mother who received me in her <span class="building">house</span> herself was a Jewish lady. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="684">Q: And that was the first you knew that? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="686">A: That's the first time I found out. </sentence><sentence id="687">They never told me. </sentence><sentence id="688">Montaigne was the name of her husband. </sentence><sentence id="689">I can't remember the name of the gentleman who was very good to my mother because...uh...she had Parkinson Disease. </sentence><sentence id="690">And...uh...she broke her ankle, and she was...uh...taken to the <span class="building">hospital</span> and he sustained her very much. </sentence><sentence id="691">But the irony is that he was the uncle of the lady who saved her...us in her <span class="interior space">garden</span>. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="698">Q: Do you have any other memories of the war years? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="700">A: Like what? </sentence><sentence id="701">What kind of memories? </sentence><sentence id="702">What we did through...during the war or...it was war time. </sentence><sentence id="703">Uh...but life goes on. </sentence><sentence id="704">Uh...I am a young...uh...girl...uh... I went to <span class="building">school</span>. </sentence><sentence id="705">L..uh...L..1 lived a normal life, but with false identification papers. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="712">Q: What was...what were the nuns like in the <span class="building">convent</span>? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="714">A: Very nice. </sentence><sentence id="715">They...uh...they behaved with me...they knew who I was, but...uh...they behaved very nicely. </sentence><sentence id="716">They saved my life. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="720">Q: Were there a lot of Jewish children? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="722">A: Yes. </sentence><sentence id="723">A <span class="dlf">lot</span>. </sentence><sentence id="724">But...uh...there were so many different places...uh...but I suppose from...uh...most of the <span class="populated place">Jewish community</span> was wiped out...uh... </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="728">Q: Did...did you ever see the nuns again? </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="730">A: After the war, I went to...to find them. </sentence><sentence id="731">Yes. </sentence><sentence id="732">I went to see all these people who thanked me naturally, but...uh... LIfe goes on...uh...and you are taken by many occupations and preoccupation and...uh...you forget and...uh...1 thought that it was important to tell these things because many people say it never happened so before I die I want to bear witness to these things because I...I suffered them and...uh...unfortunately I lost so many people because of it, and people say it never happened. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="736">Q: And that's important for us. </sentence><sentence id="737">Thank you. </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="740">A: You're welcome. </sentence><sentence id="741">This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word. </sentence><sentence id="742">It is not the primary source, and it has not been checked for spelling or accuracy. </sentence><sentence id="743"> </sentence></p></dialogue> |
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