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--- layout: transcript interviewee: zelda piekarska brodecki rg_number: rg-50.030.0041 pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0041_trs_en.pdf ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504543 gender: f birth_date: 1928-07-27 birth_year: 1928.0 place_of_birth: sosnowiec country: poland experience_group: survivor ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none ghetto: none camp(s)_encyclopedia: none camp: none non_ss_camp: none region: none needs_research: none data_entry: cl accession: 1989.h.0336 revisit: none tags: transcripts --- Document

ZELDA PIEKARSKA BRODECKI September 18, 1989

Q: Would you tell us your name and where and when you were born?

A: My name is Zelda Piekarska Brodecki. I was born in Poland, Sosnowiec [Ger: Sosnowitz], July 27, 1928.

Q: Would you, can you tell us about your family life?

A: My immediately family was my mother, mine father, my brother and myself. But I had a grandmother and a grandfather, uncle, aunts and cousins and family, very loving family. Very close family.

Q: Where did you go to school?

A: In Sosnowiec. Wait a minute. Let me see how I called [Pofsehna School (ph)]. It's not a high school; it's a middle school. That's how you call it? See I was uh I went to school until occupation, until the Germans came in. Then we couldn't go to school. We were not allowed to go to school.

Q: Was it a Jewish school?

A: No, it was not a Jewish school. Was a...not a...it was for everybody, a public school, yes. Was a nice school.

Q: Was your family observant Jewishly? Did they follow the laws, the customs?

A: I don't know. I couldn't, I hope, I think, I think they did. I mean, we were Jewish but I couldn't tell you. Really, I don't know. I don't remember. Mine grandparents were, that I remember. But about us I couldn't tell you. But we had always the holidays, and all those good days with our grandparents so I think and hope that one's true. When we were with them.

Q: What kind of a business was your father in?

A: We had, we had a candy factory, two brothers, mine uncle, Uncle - I forgot his - Uncle - let me think - and mine father and we had a restaurant.

Q: Can you tell us how your life began to change when the war came?

A: I remember when the Germans occupied Poland when they came to Poland, I don't know which day it was, the third or the fourth day, mine father had, mine father had to leave because he was Polish officer and he went with mine uncle and I was just there with my mother and my brother, and the people who were working for us - that's what I remember. That's what I'm telling you. And we were at the store and I remember the, the Germans came and rushed in, the Germans and the, and the armed tanks and mine brother was missing. He was not at home and my - was shooting and I remember that my mother went to look for him and brought him home. That's what I remember. And after two, two weeks my father came back home with mine uncle. Many changes started happening. I remember I saw many people laying on the ground in Sosnowiec and I couldn't understand what's happen. I never saw things like that. And so I asked my mother what it is and she explained to me it's all killed and explained the nicest way she could to me. But you know children, they take in the way you explain to them everything and gradually everything started happening. We had to close up the shops. We had to prepare to go to the ghetto, the Srodula [Ger: Schrodula] and I remember that our, that they were attacking people on the streets, young ladies, and they told them to dig graves. And later, they told them to take off clothes and they shot through the breast. .(PAUSE) Sorry. And tell them to dig the graves, and the graves were still being, you know, I just don't know how to express myself. The people are still alive there. This is before we were going to Srodula. And I, we had a - I'm going to tell you about a young man who was extremely brave, and nobody talks about him. His name was Marek Lieberman. He was beautiful, blonde with blue eyes. Extremely good to people. A very wealthy person, helping everybody. Didn't care who you are or what you are. And somebody announce some about him. They came to the house, knock on the wall and took all the money. And we were called to come to the market, and he was hung. I was five feet away from him, and it's engraved in my mind. I can't forget it. It's always with me. People should know about it. His name was Marek Lieberman. And in the same time, his wife give birth to a baby; and I was sent out to check, I don't know where, but this was our talking in the city, and this stays with me. And I saw other incidents too. But this happened later.

Q: Can you tell us about those?

A: I...L..I saw a mother walking with her dead baby and crying and singing to her. You got, when, do you want me to tell you about the rest. When we were going, when we were going...this was in, in 1943, I don't remember which day. It was June, but I don't remember which day it was. I was standing in the line. The Germans were standing withus (tortures) tortures, yes, and the mother was standing with her daughter and she said something to her daughter and the German soldiers, soldier came, came, came toward them and hit the little girl and the mother was protecting the child. You know, she took her in her arms and he took a gun and shot her. . How can you erase something like that? That's always with you. You don't even have to close your eyes.

Q: Can you tell us about life in the ghetto?

A: I'm going to tell you about my...I mean, the children. The children had little schools. We went, we got together. We had teachers, I mean. The young men were sent out, the young men and the young women were sent out to concen...to camps. I don't know to what kind camps, and I didn't...you know, when you are with your parents, it doesn't matter how bad it is. But if you still have somebody who loves you, cares about you, who look after you, even if you don't have nothing to eat, even when you don't have, when you live three or four families in two rooms, you know there's somebody there who will protect you. So when you're a child you don't pay much attention. You play hop...hop scotch, you go to, I mean, there were no schools, but we had little classes. People were teaching us. People, all the people were getting together, having meetings until somebody talk about them, tell the Germans; then when they start, because the ghetto was closed and they were watching us. Mine dad could go back to Sosnowiec everyday to work. My mother was in the ghetto with us children. I just had one little brother. Mine uncles, mine uncles, the Germans took them right away to a place and...I forgot how they called the place and I remember they were, they were hitting on the head of mine uncles. I know, because I went there because I was a little kid. I could run around every where. They didn't know who I was. They didn't caught me, so I just saw what's happening and report it at home. But they could not get them out. And they send them out to I know, they killed them right away there. Two of mine uncles. And one uncle they sent right away to a concentration camp. Many things coming back to me. I didn't thought...for many, many years I couldn't. ( I'm sorry.) I said, many things are coming back to my mind and I didn't talk about them for many years.

Q: Please, share them with us. Would you like a glass of water?

A: Yes, thank you. Thank you. ( PAUSE - pouring water.) This is my mother. This is mine father. And my little brother. This is myself. The picture was made in 1936 or "37. This is Joseph Piekarsky. This is Miriam Piekarska. And this is Lolek Piekarsky. And this is Zelda Piekarska. That's myself. That's...this is the only thing I have left from the house. I mean, I didn't have it. Mine uncles sent it to me from Israel.

Q: What...you said things were coming back to you from the ghetto. Can you tell us what's coming into your mind?

A: Uh, the young girls like myself, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, had to go to work. And I was working in a factory, I forgot, Dietrich (ph) I think, Dietrich. And I was working from seven in the evening to seven in the morning. And I remember at night I had to come back home, going to the cemetery by myself. But I wasn't scared. I was singing, and my father was waiting on the other corner for me. I remember good, I remember good things too, because people were getting together. People were caring about each other. We didn't have much, because they took everything away from us. When then came to Poland, right away they took, they came to the houses, and you know, they confiscate everything. I remember when they came to mine house; and uh my grandmother give my mother a silver something, silver tea and coffee set. And they took it away. And my mother went, she didn't allow them. And my father said, "Give it to them. I will get you new ones when, God permit, we leave here alive." Back of my mind too. Just a little thing, but when we went to...when we went to Srodula, to the ghetto, just allowed to take so much and so much. Just a few pounds. And three or four families lived in two rooms. We had three families living in one room. I remember my father was singing to me at night. He was sitting by the bed and singing to me. And it was bad. Was very bad. And killings and beating people.

Q: Can you tell us a little bit more about your father and his factory? It was a famous business, was it not?

A: It was, I don't know how famous it was. It was a business. It was, I don't know how big it was or how small; but it was a, you know, it was a factory. [ Sinkevitz Ashedem (ph)] in Sosnowiec.

Q: Is that where he went to work when he went back out of the ghetto to work? Did he go to the factory?

A: I don't know what he was doing when he went from the ghetto to work. This I don't know. But he came home every night. This I don't know, but the factory was there; because even when I came back home after the war, the factory was there.

Q: What did it make?

A: Candy and chocolate. I was always kidding...after the war I was kidding with my husband, I'm so sick because I was made . That's funny.

Q: What...how did you get food in the ghetto? Could you buy food? How did people...

A: On the black market, sometimes they were buying food. I really don't remember. I don't, I think they were getting stamps, food stamps. I mean, not the...mine father brought something from the city somehow. I couldn't, don't ask me. I don't know. Because I really don't know. But what...what I remember, this what came back to me. Mine father in the ghetto was working in the kitchen; and I remember when he was telling how to my mother that they were taking out children, sick children, because I wouldn't be... because when the Germans, when the Germans came, they dispose right away of sick, sick, sick children. Sick all the people. So they were carrying the children in garbage cans covered with vegetables. With whatever was left. Those things I remember.

Q: They hid them there?

A: They brought them from the ghetto to Sosnowiec, and in Sosnowiec somebody took them someplace else. But I couldn't tell you where. I don't know.

Q: And that's how they moved them? In garbage cans?

A: They moved them in the garbage can. Because right away when they came in they eliminate, they...you know, they took, they called us all. And they said, "You go here, you go here. This one, you go to dead. You go to work." And you go, wherever they want to they send you. But I was still with mine parents.

Q: Were there other people that you adopted into your family at this time?

A: We had a little boy who was living in Sosnowiec with us; and his parents were sent to concentration camp and he was with us. But I don't know what happened to him. Because his parents came after the war back from concentration camps. And he was, he was not...he was with my father.

Q: Were there any other people who stand out in your memory, from the time in the ghetto?

A: I should, but I...I don't remember.

Q: OK. What about your brother?

A: The last time I saw mine brother was June 26, 1943. He went...he was with my mother. My father was not with them. I don't know what happened to my father; but later I found out that they shot him, and I was with my mother and my brother. I remember it was raining and she had, was wearing a jacket. She put it around me so I wouldn't get wet. And I didn't want to go away from her. And she was pushing me. She said,"Somebody has to be alive to tell the story." And I didn't want to go away from her. I had long braids, and they were pulling me from one side; and she didn't want to leave my brother. She went with my brother. She was...she was a young woman; and my brother was two years younger than I was.

Q: Where did this take place?

A: In Sosnowiec. No, in Srodula ghetto. Because we were the last ones to go, the last Jews to leave the ghetto.

Q: Can you tell us about the liquidation of the ghetto? How did they take people?

A: It's like I said. They put...they took us together in the market and they were choosing people.

"You go this way, and you go that way." And they were...like I said, I didn't want to go away from my mother; and they pulled me and I had to go away from her. I didn't want to, but I had to. And my mother said, "You have to go with them." And I went. And she went with mine brother. And it was whole place with young girls, with young people; and I remember the Germans said to me, in German, "[Eine puppe sehr giit (ph)]." They're going to be very good to us. We're going to have a wonderful time, all of us. And uh right from there they put us in those cattle wagons; and they picked up other people on the way from other cities, and it was horrible. I'm still...I still don't like to go by trains. That was just...

Q: Can you describe it please?

A: Was no...was no water, no windows. We were closed up. People were praying. People didn't know where to go to use the bathroom. They give us a bucket. And we were like little sardines put together. We didn't have place to move. I don't know if we were gone three days or four days. I don't remember. People...people were dying. Holding hands, and just holding...holding hands. And we came to Klettendorf--no, we came to [Guntebrecher (ph)], to Germany; and I remember they let us out, like you know, when you sit so many days, when you stand and you can move. And the Germans, the Germans was screaming and beating us with the guns and with those, with those...those.... I don't know how you call it, they keep them in , yes, clubs ?. And it was just..(DISRUPTION) And I remember when we came to Guentherbriicke,| this was our first arbeit , arbeit lager; which was bad too, but it was not like our death. And there were already some people and they were just giving us work right away then. And so many people, most of the people were very sick. They couldn't go to work. But they were afraid to say something.

Q: Were you with anybody you knew at that time?

A: I met uh...you know, when you go, when young people go together, you just start talking to each other, and you meet. And I knew all of them. But came people from other cities; and there were two ladies who knew my mother when she was a young girl. Their name was Kaufman (ph). And uh I just met them, and I didn't know that they knew my mother; but I was just going to everybody, and I was just touching and thanking and introducing myself. And they said to me, "Your mother, we worked with her." And so was a friendship, and so I knew right away somebody.

Q: What kind of work did you do?

A: When I came to Klettendorf, when I was doing...I was working with a shovel and uh, a laborer. Very hard work. But I was always dreaming, I was always pretending; and I wanted to , | went home to my parents. And I was singing, you know, one of Jewish songs we sing, tell stories. And I was dancing, and tap dancing.

Q: What were the living conditions like in the camp?

A: What conditions? We were existing, not even existing. We, the food - I remember I took a piece of bread, a tiny piece of bread, and I took it to a lady. And I said to her, "Cut in very thin...very thin slices." So I would have it for a long time. And uh later I, I got a better job. I mean they sent me to put boxes together. We called it Sentung (ph), sending ammunition and things to other cities. And I had to put it together. And I was singing...I remember my father was singing German songs; and I knew a few, and I was singing. And there was one German " Forced labor camp near Breslau (Pol: Wroc_aw). who was...he said, "How do you know those songs?" I said, "Because my father was singing." And uh he like it so much he gave me a piece of bread.

Q: Can you sing one of the songs for us?

A: Oh, I can't sing, I can't sing. And uh later, I was sent out from this concentration camp to another one, to Klettendorf. In Klettendorf...let me think a minute. In Klettendorf, for me was a man's concentration camp and a woman's concentration camp. And in Klettendorf when it was, I...[ became sick. I mean, I didn't have...I was malnutritious, and I was working very hard. And I was working, and uh I was a mechanic. I was supposed to be on mechanic. The German who had the place wanted me to repair a car. What do I know about a car? So he took a piece of iron and put it on my coat. He's going to kill. And was there another German who said, " -" You know, "Leave her alone. She doesn't know how to repair a car." So he said something to him in German. But he didn't do anything to me, because the other one was a soldier. So he...and I told this when I came home, you know, to...to the barracks, to my , to the lady who took us to take care of us. So she didn't let me go to work anymore the next day. She said that I am sick or something happened, she needs me there, you know. And they send me someplace else; because I was afraid if I go back to work I'm not going to come home alive. That was horrible.

Q: How many people lived in one barracks?

A: Many people; because we slept on the floor and we had uh straw, on the straw. We didn't have, we just had uh those things with , not really dresses, made like paper. No stockings, no shoes, just rags around our feet. And it was very cold, extremely cold. Oh, something burst into my mind. When I was in Klettendorf, I had prisoners of war...Russian prisoners. I remember once, and we just worked maybe ten or fifteen girls with some German who were taking care of us. And if they didn't see what you were doing, we...all the bread of...we didn't have nothing, but we sent all to the men. Because, I mean, we couldn't move without them. It was, it was horrible. And this, in same concen...in this same lager what I was, I met a guy...I met many guys, many Hollanders from Holland. But to to the arbeit lagers too; because they had Jewish professors in Holland, as they want to prod the students to boycott the Jewish professors, and they didn't want to. So for the punishment, they sent them to concen...to the lagers. And I met those guys, I met all of them. They were wonderful people. And one was Elias Kohn (ph), who's helping me out, who's helping everybody, who's wonderful, a wonderful human being. He risked his life to come...I mean, in this...in this Klettendorf he didn't have to do, but then he was sent to another concentration camp, to ammunition factory. He risked his life, and he came and he made a picture. He made many pictures. This was made in 1945, uh 1944, the eleventh month. I was working in ammunition factory. We, my whole body was grey-blue. And I scratched myself; and being hungry, not having what to sleep, not having what to eat, being, you know, missing everybody the way I did, I got very sick. We didn't have any doctors. We didn't have any nurses. But we had uh a lady who was married to a doctor, who was kind and took care of me. He said for me to stay on the hot water, and when I felt...she took a razor blade because we didn't have any scalpels, and she cut me under my arm and she let the pus out and my whole body was.... And I was fainting; and she...somehow she took care of me. She said, she told me...I didn't know this because I didn't know then, but then I met her in 19...I mean, I met her ten or fifteen years ago in New York at a wedding. She was telling my husband that she was nursing with me with little spoons with water, because we didn't have much to eat. And everybody contribute. All the guys were very supportive, helping each other. You know, everybody give something away, they don't have much; and this helped me back to life. And I was screaming, "I have to be alive because I have to go home." I knew that I didn't have anybody, but I was hoping so hard that I believe in it. And when I come home, I'm going to have a mother and a father. And that's what I told everybody. And everybody agreed with me. Nobody disagreed, and everybody said, "Of course, you will." I mean, the doctors didn't have to do anything. They just talked to you and told you, and you believed them. Maybe this will help you.

Q: How did this Dutch man help you?

A: He was bringing, bringing food for us. He was telling us what was going on. He thinks even when you don't, didn't believe it, it was your only hope. You grabbed it. And we loved him, all the girls loved him. Even came to see us after the war, too.

Q: How long were you in that particular camp?

A: I couldn't tell you. I went to the camp, was 1943; and I was...I was two years in the camps together. But with the ghetto together, it was--the whole war, six years. You know, sometimes I sit and I don't believe it myself. But it's the truth.

Q: Can you tell us more about the relationship between the young women together in the camp?

A: We were very supportive of each other. I had four girl friends. These are Klara Kartush (ph) in Detroit, Tonya, Tonya...I forget her maiden name--Jablon (ph). And Sara Stapler(ph).Those girls were wonderful. They even took care of me when I was very sick. Because they had a transport they sent out in 19...in 1945, before the war ended, they sent a transport of girls. I couldn't go because I was very sick. So they left me; and those girls didn't go. They said, "We're going to save you." | didn't want to ask. They said, "You have to lie down, because we're going...we're going close the whole lager." But what happened...the good thing happened that the Russians came the night before, and we were liberated the 8th of May. And they were supposed to kill us the 9th. Get rid of us. And you know, we were scared to tell them that we are sick because doesn't matter what. Right away, dead. ( PAUSE) I remember I was standing and I was dreaming, I was pretending; I was looking at everything was so beautiful outside green, and we were cooped up. And people were going to work, and taking, and couldn't understand this. In the morning, we had to go to work. ( PAUSE) We had to go and march, too. And they were clubbing us. They were hitting us. Some people got, some people got...not hurt, but killed.

Q: Were you yourself ever hit?

A: Many times. One time I stole a potato. I was working in a garden. I saw a potato and I put in my arm. Had a bandage, but I put the potato in my hand; and they caught me and I was beaten. Everybody was standing looking as they were beating me with - (PAUSE) - yeah.

Q: What happened after you were liberated?

A: When I was liberated, I was with my girl friends. I was liberated with the girls in Ludwigsdorf, in Ludwigsdorf in ammunition factory. And I was uh very sick. I couldn't go any place; so we went to Walgenbuch (ph). We took our apartment, and we stayed there for two, three weeks. I felt better. And uh somebody brought me a letter from Poland, from my cousin, to come back home...to come home. " We're going to teach, you're going to go back to school." And I was very eager to do this. So three weeks later, I went back to Poland without papers, with nothing. I went back to Sosnowiec. Hoping, hoping that I have somebody there. Can you imagine, I was sitting in the train...I was sitting with a priest with some girls. And I remember I didn't have anywhere to put mine head, so I put on his knee; and when he started talking about the Jews, I picked up mine head and said, "I'm Jewish. And I'm . I'm Jewish and I'm coming from concentration camp." And I said, "You better close your mouth, because you don't know what you're talking about." He got up...he throw me down, and he got up and went away. Coming back from...to Sosnowiec, I didn't have any money. | didn't have any baggage. I just had whatever I was wearing. Mine heart was pumping. I was overwhelmed. I was very happy; but I was excited and I was happy and I was scared and I didn't trust. I was afraid to trust. And I went back when my cousin wrote me the letter to the factory there. Was one of mine cousins and the people working. And he said to me, "This is yours. And stay with me, and we will take care of you." Didn't say anything about a school, what he wrote to me. And I stayed a week. I stayed two weeks. I was, I was going around. I was going to the place where we were living. They didn't allow me to come in. I mean, to me they didn't say this, but to some other Jewish girls they said . " You are still alive; they didn't get rid of A Yes, I remember this. It was...see, this was...my girlfriend was telling me. Gisza Klein (ph) was born in Odessa, but before the war they came to visit the grandmother and they couldn't go back. And what she told me when the Russians came, they opened the doors and she greet them. She said, "Strastvitye, tovarishi." [ Trans: "Hello, comrades."] She spoke Russian. And she says they came in. That's what she was telling. And I remember that I went looking for food for this little... we had many sick people. We went looking for food to the Germans, and they refused to give it to us. They gave us a few eggs and a little milk for the very sick people with, with uh, what they had uh something with a long - (tuberculosis). Tuberculosis. No doctors. Sick people. And I remember they got...they got a few of those Germans. Not I, because I don't have the strength to do anything cause I couldn't walk. My legs were like , 1 think. Some...some of my friends said that I'm a miracle, that I survived what I survived.

Q: Did they grab some of the Germans?

A: Yes. But one was very nice to all of us. He always give us hope, all the girls; and the girls took care of him after the war by helping him.

Q: One of the Germans?

A: One of the Germans, a German man. He was always decent to.... He had a big family; and he...when he came, he was...he didn't give us...he didn't have anything himself. But he give us hope. So we still have good people. I believe that we have good people. And I still trust people. And I promise myself one thing in concentration camp: when I'm going to be alive and I'm going to get through, the first I'm going to grab I'm going to throw in the river. The first I grabbed I hugged and I kissed and I give her all my clothes; and I give away my bread. You cannot do things like that when you're not brought up this way. It's instilled in you. Yes.

Q: Can you tell us how you met your husband?

A: I met my husband in Landsberg-am-Lech in July when I, when I came to Landsberg. I was liberated in June. I was in Poland for three weeks. From Poland I went next to Germany; and I went traveling and I went to Landsberg, to a DP camp, displaced person camp. My husband was a policeman there. That's where I met him.

Q: Was he from Poland also?

A: He's from Warsaw, yes. And I know him three months, and I got married.

(PAUSE)

Q: Would you describe the incident when you first met him?

A: Oh, I don't remember. ( Laughter) I met him because somebody wanted to hit me. ( Laughter) In our...in our ...he came to protect us. He was a policeman. It was a group of people from all countries. We had people from Greece, from Romania, different people, diff... well, you know. Different men. So one just put a knife, and said if I don't marry him he's going to kill me. ( Laughter) So we called the police; and then my husband came. Yeah.

Q: Where did you go after that? How long did you stay in. . .?

A: We stayed in Germany - wait, let me tell you this. So Joe was born. Joseph, our first baby, was born in Germany, in Landsberg . He was born Decem--no, he was born 1946.And to us, you know, our children are more than children to us. This is our future, our hope. So you can imagine, this was mine baby and this was my doll. Not just him, but everybody. We care very much about each other. ( PAUSE) We had to...we didn't have anybody. Anyhow, all the Jews are kinship to each other. Yes.

Q: Tell me about where you went after the war? What you did? After how long you stayed in Germany, where you went after?

A: I stayed...we stayed in Germany for--"45 to "49--four years. And uh we registered to go to Israel. My husband registered to go to Israel before he met me; but I don't know, he...he was telling me those things. But it took such a long time, I forgot what he was telling me. But we registered to go to America. And it took a few years. They called us in, and we were sent to Richmond in 1949. Forty years ago. That's when I was born--forty years ago.

Q: Tell me about your daughter. When she was two and one half, in the supermarket?

A: Maria? Maria was stolen. She was an import. We brought her, too. And she was born in Richmond; and when she was two and one half, not quite three, whenever I took her to the grocery store and she saw a lady, she asked her would she be my grandmother. You know, I didn't mind; but she remembers. My kids always asking, "Mama, why don't we have grandparents? Why don't we have uncles? Why don't we have cousins like other people have?" And I was trying to explain. I was sitting with them when they were a little bit older, sitting at a table and telling them. But I always broke down, and I start crying. I couldn't finish. Even now I cannot tell everything. But they don't ask too much, because they read and know and listen.

Q: Is there anything else you would like to share with us? Any other memories that have come back as we've talked about any of your stories?

A: It's going to come back to me later. Now I can't think, you know. Yes. Things like that should never happen. People should care about each other.

Q: Thank you very much.

A: You're very welcome. Thank you.