The early days of Google Search Central

I think we had a Python generator or something.


The early days of Google Search Central

But then yes, some tools like John's third party tools came out that were other ways


The early days of Google Search Central

of generating sitemaps.


The early days of Google Search Central

And it just really started out like that.


The early days of Google Search Central

And then as part of this, hey, what do people need?


The early days of Google Search Central

But also how do we get people interested in sitemaps?


The early days of Google Search Central

Like there was a goal, right, of like how many sitemaps can we get submitted?


The early days of Google Search Central

And so the thought was like, can we offer people something else, like data for instance,


The early days of Google Search Central

to get them to come and sign up and then we could get them to do sitemaps.


The early days of Google Search Central

So initially once it became like a UI and it had, I think, the query stats and a couple


The early days of Google Search Central

other things, we still called it sitemaps initially, right?


The early days of Google Search Central

So at that point there were two things called sitemaps, the UI and the actual file.


The early days of Google Search Central

And of course sitemap was already a term, HTML sitemaps.


The early days of Google Search Central

So that was already, it still to this day confuses people separately.


The early days of Google Search Central

So a parallel track from that, we were trying to make XML sitemaps be a web standard.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so we were working with the other major search engines at the time, which was Microsoft


The early days of Google Search Central

and Yahoo, to get them to accept this as well.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so that's where sitemaps.org came from.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so how that came to be, that sitemaps.org is that behind the scenes, like of course


The early days of Google Search Central

there's legal people and marketing people and whoever trying to figure this out.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so we would have these calls, these conference calls, and we would talk about like, hey,


The early days of Google Search Central

this is what we're trying to accomplish, this is what it's going to be.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so in order for everyone to come to an agreement, it was like, okay, well we need


The early days of Google Search Central

to see what this looks like.


The early days of Google Search Central

So I have very poor website development skills, right?


The early days of Google Search Central

So I basically took like Notepad or something and I coded this very basic HTML website to


The early days of Google Search Central

just say, okay, here's the protocol, here's what we're going to say.


The early days of Google Search Central

So I put that up as like sitemaps.org and it was like this very, we had to use neutral


The early days of Google Search Central

color, like we couldn't use the colors of Google or Microsoft, it had to be something


The early days of Google Search Central

else, right?


The early days of Google Search Central

So I just picked, I don't know, this burgundy red or something.


The early days of Google Search Central

And it was like the most basic thing you ever saw just so that everyone could see and agree.


The early days of Google Search Central

So everyone did, somehow that became like, there was no one to come in and make a real


The early days of Google Search Central

site.


The early days of Google Search Central

So they just kept that Notepad version and that's what launched.


The early days of Google Search Central

And then I saw when schema.org launched, it launched the same color scheme.


The early days of Google Search Central

They copied it.


The early days of Google Search Central

This is like the aesthetic now, like we have to use it.


The early days of Google Search Central

It's like a look, you know, the fonts, everything.


The early days of Google Search Central

And it's, I think it may still look that way today.


The early days of Google Search Central

I mean, I think at some point someone went in and added like JavaScript menu dropdowns


The early days of Google Search Central

or something.


The early days of Google Search Central

It's like the same thing that it was when I just was typing my thing in Notepad.


The early days of Google Search Central

So I do find that funny still.


The early days of Google Search Central

I really love that.


The early days of Google Search Central

So awesome.


The early days of Google Search Central

It's like everyone is like, oh, this was done on purpose by this fancy designer and we must


The early days of Google Search Central

keep this so good.


The early days of Google Search Central

That's where that started.


The early days of Google Search Central

And then you started blogging.


The early days of Google Search Central

There was also the site maps blog at some point there.


The early days of Google Search Central

There was this like huge flurry of like, we're going to post about this.


The early days of Google Search Central

Products didn't have blogs.


The early days of Google Search Central

There was like one other product that had a blog and like there was the main Google


The early days of Google Search Central

blog and Karen Wicker who you all may know, like she was in charge of that blog.


The early days of Google Search Central

She's awesome.


The early days of Google Search Central

And she was very much for other products having blogs.


The early days of Google Search Central

Even though like as a company, I think blogging was kind of like, it wasn't that it was new,


The early days of Google Search Central

but it kind of was new and it was like, oh, I don't know.


The early days of Google Search Central

We don't know if everybody should just be posting all this stuff all the time.


The early days of Google Search Central

But like since we were in this offsite office, it was really small.


The early days of Google Search Central

There was no one paying attention to us.


The early days of Google Search Central

And also I didn't know, like I was new to the company.


The early days of Google Search Central

No one told me what I could do and couldn't do.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so I'm like, oh, there's a blog.


The early days of Google Search Central

Let's just start a blog.


The early days of Google Search Central

Like, Hey, the other thing too, kind of related is that the product was beta.


The early days of Google Search Central

This kind of moves ahead a little bit, but like all the products at the time were these


The early days of Google Search Central

beta products.


The early days of Google Search Central

Like Gmail was beta.


The early days of Google Search Central

Like there was no, and it got to the point at some point where I was like, why is this


The early days of Google Search Central

beta like this?


The early days of Google Search Central

We should just take the beta label off.


The early days of Google Search Central

Right.


The early days of Google Search Central

I didn't know like that there was a process or that no products had done that or, you


The early days of Google Search Central

know, so anyway, the blog was kind of that way.


The early days of Google Search Central

And that's kind of how it started.


The early days of Google Search Central

And then once, like I say, I was talking with Matt and then Matt's like, oh, you should


The early days of Google Search Central

come to these conferences and really talk to people.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so he had me come to a, you know, search marketing conference.


The early days of Google Search Central

And you know, really start to see, oh, people have a lot of questions and they need a lot


The early days of Google Search Central

of things.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so, because again, my background, I'd done a lot of technical writing and I'd written


The early days of Google Search Central

help centers in the past.


The early days of Google Search Central

I just wrote basically a whole help center.


The early days of Google Search Central

I went and talked to, there was this like support team that like answers email for all


The early days of Google Search Central

of Google.


The early days of Google Search Central

And at that time there was just this team that basically you would email support and


The early days of Google Search Central

it could be about anything.


The early days of Google Search Central

It could be about why isn't my site in search?


The early days of Google Search Central

It could be about ads, Gmail, whatever it was.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so I spent a ton of time with them, like finding what are all the questions people


The early days of Google Search Central

are emailing you?


The early days of Google Search Central

What are the canned answers that you're using?


The early days of Google Search Central

And I think we like reduced the support emails by 80% or something.


The early days of Google Search Central

Right.


The early days of Google Search Central

Because we like zeroed in on the questions that everyone was asking.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so, yeah, from there kind of built this help center and then kind of the early version


The early days of Google Search Central

of the tools.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so all that existed before any of this was a single page and it was the webmaster


The early days of Google Search Central

guidelines, but it was a very short, small page.


The early days of Google Search Central

And it was, I think it was at google.com slash webmasters.


The early days of Google Search Central

So we took that over, right.


The early days of Google Search Central

That folder structure and like just launched all this stuff.


The early days of Google Search Central

And then we turned the webmaster guidelines into this like much more comprehensive thing.


The early days of Google Search Central

Well Marissa Meyer was like head of whatever her title was.


The early days of Google Search Central

She's like basically head of all the product managers, head of all the product kind of


The early days of Google Search Central

in charge of everything.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so she didn't know any of this was going.


The early days of Google Search Central

Like I didn't, we didn't run anything by anybody.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so she was, I apparently she would give talks, you know, and she'd be like, Oh, and


The early days of Google Search Central

you know, we, uh, not for site owners, but like, just like more PR talks, right.


The early days of Google Search Central

Of like, Oh, Hey, as part of search, we have these guidelines that like, that the algorithms


The early days of Google Search Central

really make sure that everything adheres to.


The early days of Google Search Central

And she would just pull up google.com slash webmasters to show this single page.


The early days of Google Search Central

And she did that apparently at one point and it was not there.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so that was the first time that she knew of us.


The early days of Google Search Central

It was like, what is happening?


The early days of Google Search Central

I was like, Oh no.


The early days of Google Search Central

Um, it all worked out in the end, but, um, that, that was how that really started.


The early days of Google Search Central

Um, so yeah, from there, like we just like, you know, really dove in and then, uh, so


The early days of Google Search Central

it was very, as you can imagine, quite a fun, um, thing to, like I say, dive in on both


The early days of Google Search Central

the audience side and the inside of Google side, what do you all need, um, and come up


The early days of Google Search Central

with, um, what we could, you know, you're always also like, okay, you can't let spammers


The early days of Google Search Central

know what's going on.


The early days of Google Search Central

You know, there's always this like, you know, the tension of all that.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so my inclination is always to provide as much help and information as possible.


The early days of Google Search Central

So like understanding what would really make sense to include and not include, it was quite


The early days of Google Search Central

a involved, um, fun process.


The early days of Google Search Central

Cool.


The early days of Google Search Central

And that, that kind of led, I guess, to, to webmaster tools and the comprehensive guidelines


The early days of Google Search Central

and all of that.


The early days of Google Search Central

As that started, you know, we were like, we got to change the name.


The early days of Google Search Central

We can't call it site maps.


The early days of Google Search Central

Right.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so, um, we came up with this like webmaster central, like for the whole thing and then


The early days of Google Search Central

webmaster tools for just the data part of it.


The early days of Google Search Central

Um, and the big debate there was, you know, what do you call it?


The early days of Google Search Central

Everyone had opinions and webmaster, you know, as you all recall, um, I think it was, I think


The early days of Google Search Central

you recall from back in those days, everything was used that term and like the webmaster


The early days of Google Search Central

was like the person in charge of the website.


The early days of Google Search Central

And, um, there was so much debate though, of like, what can we use instead?


The early days of Google Search Central

You know, cause it seemed like the things were beginning to shift away from that.


The early days of Google Search Central

Um, and, but it was so early that there wasn't a good term, but we spent so much time talking


The early days of Google Search Central

about that.


The early days of Google Search Central

Were there any other options, like even remotely close that you recall that were like, oh,


The early days of Google Search Central

maybe any of like personal favorites?


The early days of Google Search Central

You know, not that I can recall like internally, um, it's interesting, right?


The early days of Google Search Central

Cause it was called the console internally.


The early days of Google Search Central

And I think now that's the external name for it.


The early days of Google Search Central

The internal name of the team was webmaster happiness, you know?


The early days of Google Search Central

So we did have that webmaster term in there, but it was like, like we had shirts made up,


The early days of Google Search Central

right.


The early days of Google Search Central

That said webmaster happiness, like everything kind of was around like, how could we really


The early days of Google Search Central

help this group of people?


The early days of Google Search Central

So webmaster was such a, like that term was just so commonly used.


The early days of Google Search Central

Now there's so many, like you could certainly say site owner, but we were like, is it, it


The early days of Google Search Central

may not be the owner of the site.


The early days of Google Search Central

It may not be just the marketing side.


The early days of Google Search Central

It's not just the technical side, like even now, right.


The early days of Google Search Central

It's hard to come up with a term for what it would be.


The early days of Google Search Central

It's cause there's so many people like that could be touching a website.


The early days of Google Search Central

That's not like one term that site owner.


The early days of Google Search Central

Yeah.


The early days of Google Search Central

So we started with the SEO audience, even though we were like, this isn't just for like


The early days of Google Search Central

SEOs, but like in 2006, 2007 they were still the ones most interested in this kind of data


The early days of Google Search Central

and the ones that worked on it the most.


The early days of Google Search Central

So there were also a lot of discussions of like, who is the audience?


The early days of Google Search Central

You know, it shouldn't just be SEOs, but like they are the ones who care the most right


The early days of Google Search Central

now.


The early days of Google Search Central

So we need to cater to them first.


The early days of Google Search Central

So definitely a lot of, you know, discussions about all that.


The early days of Google Search Central

So cool.


The early days of Google Search Central

And then as you kind of transitioned away from Google, you wrote a book, I remember.


The early days of Google Search Central

How did that come up?


The early days of Google Search Central

So then once I did, you know, leave Google and I was doing other things, I wasn't planning


The early days of Google Search Central

on continuing to be involved in SEO at all.


The early days of Google Search Central

I thought I'd be doing something else.


The early days of Google Search Central

But then I kept getting all these questions, right.


The early days of Google Search Central

And I was still speaking at conferences because I was getting invitations, but then like I


The early days of Google Search Central

would get emails all the time, right.


The early days of Google Search Central

And then people would just, you know, ask me questions all the time.


The early days of Google Search Central

So I got this opportunity to write a book and I thought, oh great, I can just answer


The early days of Google Search Central

all the questions in a book.


The early days of Google Search Central

And like, I, you know, that's going to solve it.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so I wrote this book, Marketing in the Age of Google, which is a great experience.


The early days of Google Search Central

And I still think the book holds up, right.


The early days of Google Search Central

Even though there's older information, the fundamentals are the same, right.


The early days of Google Search Central

I found that I still got as many or more questions than before.


The early days of Google Search Central

I was spending so much time on that, that I eventually was like, oh, maybe I should


The early days of Google Search Central

charge for all this advice that I give.


The early days of Google Search Central

And then I, so I ended up staying in SEO and now it's been, you know, years and years and


The early days of Google Search Central

I love it.


The early days of Google Search Central

I feel like there's always new challenges, no matter what I work on.


The early days of Google Search Central

I feel like there's like always something new.


The early days of Google Search Central

And I spent some time, you know, I had, I built up kind of an agency for a while where


The early days of Google Search Central

I had people working for me.


The early days of Google Search Central

But now to me, I just prefer kind of the one-on-one type thing.


The early days of Google Search Central

So you know, that's what I've been doing since.


The early days of Google Search Central

I also launched software, right, that uses the Google Search Console API, really diving


The early days of Google Search Central

into the query data part of it.


The early days of Google Search Central

Kind of, it started with the book, the point of the book was using data about what people


The early days of Google Search Central

search for to understand audiences.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so it really started from that of like, how can we take the query data and turn it


The early days of Google Search Central

into categories and track things at a topic level and that kind of thing.


The early days of Google Search Central

And so that still continues to this day.


The early days of Google Search Central

You know, we've got that software out there, which is Keyline Toolbox.


The early days of Google Search Central

So yeah, and even now, because these questions are coming up again, now, you know, I'm wanting


The early days of Google Search Central

to launch now a new education site.


The early days of Google Search Central

You bring it back full circle, right?


The early days of Google Search Central

It's the same.


The early days of Google Search Central

I'll just one last-


The early days of Google Search Central

Site maps, B2.


The early days of Google Search Central

No.


The early days of Google Search Central

So just one last story I'll tell you about this is 2006, right?


The early days of Google Search Central

I wrote on Matt Cutts' blog this post about using hyphens in URLs, okay?


The early days of Google Search Central

Which at 2006, like things were different.


The early days of Google Search Central

Once a month, I'm in a call with someone's like, we changed all the URLs on our site


The early days of Google Search Central

to use hyphens because we know that that's a best practice.


The early days of Google Search Central

And I'm like, no, it's all my fault.


The early days of Google Search Central

Like I'm coming to haunt myself, you know?


The early days of Google Search Central

So I'm like, okay, like that's the idea of this new site is like, let's just get some


The early days of Google Search Central

like fundamental best practices, not kind of all of the extra, you know, stuff that


The early days of Google Search Central

you see, but just like, here's kind of some fundamental reference to fall back on to kind


The early days of Google Search Central

of yeah, make up for all that stuff that's out there.


The early days of Google Search Central

So cool.


The early days of Google Search Central

So you'll be answering the question about subdirectories versus subdomains?


The early days of Google Search Central

Well, John, I mean, I feel like no one's ever figured that out yet.


The early days of Google Search Central

Like, you know, has anyone talked about that?


The early days of Google Search Central

Oh my gosh.


The early days of Google Search Central

The endless questions.


The early days of Google Search Central

Yeah.


The early days of Google Search Central

Fun times.


The early days of Google Search Central

Endless, yeah.


The early days of Google Search Central

So why did you call it key lime toolbox and not like webmaster tools tools or-


The early days of Google Search Central

I know, right?


The early days of Google Search Central

Because I'm, don't you know, by now I'm terrible at naming.


The early days of Google Search Central

Hasn't this discussion told us anything?


The early days of Google Search Central

I mean, like I wanted, because I couldn't come up with anything else other than webmaster


The early days of Google Search Central

or site owner or whatever.


The early days of Google Search Central

Right?


The early days of Google Search Central

So it's like, let's just come up with, let's just use a name that means nothing.


The early days of Google Search Central

That's just like a fun, happy name.


The early days of Google Search Central

Like a name does not have to be what it is.


The early days of Google Search Central

Of course that has brought its own share problems.


The early days of Google Search Central

Oh.


The early days of Google Search Central

Just because-


The early days of Google Search Central

Like it's tools for lime farmers or something?


The early days of Google Search Central

Well, it's like, no one knows what it is then, right?


The early days of Google Search Central

So that's why the new site is like, we got to come up with like a name that is just boring


The early days of Google Search Central

and descriptive.


The early days of Google Search Central

Yeah.


The early days of Google Search Central

So cool.


The early days of Google Search Central

Well, thanks for joining us here.


The early days of Google Search Central

It's been super fascinating and fun to have you here kind of talking about the olden times.


The early days of Google Search Central

Thanks for having me.


The early days of Google Search Central

It's so fun to think about so long ago.


The early days of Google Search Central

Where can folks find you if they have any questions and want to send you?


The early days of Google Search Central

Well, I'm on Twitter, of course, Vanessa Fox.


The early days of Google Search Central

The software, right, is keylimetoolbox.com.


The early days of Google Search Central

And then the new site that's not launched yet, I just have an email sign up, is SEO


The early days of Google Search Central

appendium.com, which maybe is too long of a word.


The early days of Google Search Central

We'll see.


The early days of Google Search Central

But yeah.


The early days of Google Search Central

And then if you want the nature pics, I'm also on Instagram, Vanessa.


The early days of Google Search Central

Nature pics.


The early days of Google Search Central

Oh, we didn't even go like photography too.


The early days of Google Search Central

I know.


The early days of Google Search Central

What the heck?


The early days of Google Search Central

The deer, the hummingbirds, the rabbits, you got it all on my Instagram.


The early days of Google Search Central

So that'd be where I'd start.


The early days of Google Search Central

I don't know.


The early days of Google Search Central

I think we're doing like a follow up podcast, like a branch off a series about hummingbirds


The early days of Google Search Central

and killer plants.


The early days of Google Search Central

Yeah.


The early days of Google Search Central

I think that's what's happening.


The early days of Google Search Central

For sure.


The early days of Google Search Central

Definitely.


The early days of Google Search Central

I'm all in on that.


The early days of Google Search Central

Oh.


The early days of Google Search Central

We'll have to move on to a different topic for the next episode.


The early days of Google Search Central

Sorry.


The early days of Google Search Central

Because next time on the Search Off the Record podcast, we'll have another exciting episode


The early days of Google Search Central

for you from folks from the Search Relations team.


The early days of Google Search Central

We've been having fun with these podcast episodes.


The early days of Google Search Central

I hope you, the listener, have been finding them both entertaining and insightful as well.


The early days of Google Search Central

Feel free to drop me a note on Twitter or chat with us at one of the next virtual or


The early days of Google Search Central

in-person events that we go to if you have any thoughts.


The early days of Google Search Central

And of course, don't forget to like and subscribe.


The early days of Google Search Central

Thank you and goodbye.


The early days of Google Search Central

Bye.


The early days of Google Search Central


How does Google Search roll out algorithmic updates? #AskGooglebot

Today's question comes from Spain,


and it asks if algorithm updates roll out globally


or individually across countries or languages.


As someone in a tiny country, I like that question.


So thanks for asking.


While I'd love to have a simple yes or no answer here,


the reality is much more complex.


In general, we aim to make our algorithms as globally valid


as possible, not having to make variations


for countries and languages makes them easier


to test and maintain.


That said, sometimes we have to pick a country or language


to focus on first.


This allows our engineers to fine tune the algorithms.


In those cases, we try to start with a language or a country


that's most relevant to the algorithm.


That can be English, but not always.


When relevant, we mention this in our announcements as well.


And then once we find that the algorithm is working


as expected, over time, it's usually


expanded to other countries or languages.


So in short, while we try to make everything


as global as possible, the rollout of bigger changes


can vary.


And that's it for today's Ask Googlebot question.


If you'd like to send us a question,


make sure to use the Ask Googlebot hashtag on Twitter


and subscribe to this channel to stay up to date.


Honestly about Google’s Honest Results Policy and more! | Search Off the Record podcast

Welcome, everyone, to the next episode of Search Off the Record, a podcast that we're


trying out.


Our plan is to talk a little bit about what's happening at Google, behind the scenes, and


maybe have some fun along the way.


My name is John Mueller, a search advocate on the Search Relations team here at Google


in Switzerland, and I'm joined by Martin and Gary, who are also on the team.


Hi.


Hi, Martin.


Hi, Gary.


Guten Morgen.


Good morning.


So we've done a number of episodes now, and I think we're slowly getting a hang of it.


It feels a little bit new and exciting every time, though.


So that's pretty cool.


How's it working for you all?


Going pretty well.


I'm really enjoying these recordings and these episodes and the responses we get.


It's quite fun.


It's awkward.


That's fantastic.


Cool.


All right.


Martin, you had a topic that was kind of on your heart.


Oh, yeah.


What's happening on your side?


I was wondering if it's just me or if it's a larger thing, but I got a bunch of messages


and questions regarding the different kinds of rendering, and I also observed that whenever


people are asking about JavaScript sites, the number one thing that they get as a response


is, oh, you need to pre-render this.


And I was wondering, do you guys actually know the difference between pre-rendering,


server-side rendering, and dynamic rendering, or is that all a blurry thing?


Those are just different names for the same thing, right?


Yeah, it's not.


So the reason we hired you is to not have to know about these things.


Fine, fine.


OK.


You are probably representative of the general population in this case, because I think it


is seen as being different names for the same thing, but it's actually slightly different


things.


So you can pre-render things when you know when the content is changing, then you're


basically creating static content from your dynamic setup with JavaScript, and you would


run that on the server side, but you know when the content is changing.


So if you have a normal website, like a blog, for instance, your recipe blog is a fantastic


example for that, Gary, because you know when you're updating a recipe or adding a new recipe,


and then you basically run your JavaScript that, well, if you would use JavaScript, I


know you hate JavaScript, you're not going to use JavaScript probably, but you would


then run your JavaScript and create the static version of that and then be done until you


then make the next change or publish the next recipe.


But then there's websites that are a lot more dynamic, like, I don't know, social networks


or auctioning platforms or something like that, where things happen dynamically based


on user input, and then you would have to run your JavaScript every single time someone


is visiting the page, either in the browser or on the server.


So server-side rendering is doing that whenever the request comes in from a user to your server,


the JavaScript runs on the server, generates the HTML there.


And then there's dynamic rendering, which is kind of server-side rendering, but you


only do server-side rendering for bots like Googlebot and other search engines and stuff


like that.


So they're not the same thing.


And then people are like, oh, but Martin, if they're not the same thing, which one should


we use?


And it's like, it's the answer we probably always give, which is it depends.


And then people are like, but what does it depend on?


Which is a legitimate follow-up question, if you ask me.


And it's like, it depends on your site.


What kind of site do you have?


How often does your content change?


I don't know.


But yeah, that's a question that I get often.


So you said on server-side rendering that the JavaScript runs on the server.


So why wouldn't, like, for example, in case of a WordPress blog where things are generated


by PHP, would you still run the JavaScript on the server?


Or you just generate the stuff with PHP and forget about JavaScript altogether, because


life will be so much better?


Mm.


I mean, the thing is, if you have WordPress, which is written in PHP, then yeah, PHP will


generate the content.


And then JavaScript adds some fancy bits and pieces of functionality over it.


But for instance, if you're using Ghost, which is a blog engine similar to WordPress, not


SCM SE, I think, but it's pretty much the same thing.


But it was written in Node.js, so you would run the JavaScript on the server side.


And then it does the same thing as PHP would do.


It takes whatever inputs come from the request, maybe makes a read to the database, and then


generates the HTML on the server.


So basically, in case of server-side rendering, what you're saying is that JavaScript acts


as a server-side language.


Yeah.


So pretty much interesting.


But you can combine those as well, right?


It's like...


But why?


Because you can.


So I'm kind of thinking at one of the CMSs I made a long time ago to kind of go back


to the old CMS topic, where basically there was a giant database behind it.


And every time it needed to generate a new page, it could do that on the fly, but it


was just really slow.


So I cached the whole HTML response.


I just cached that.


And the next time someone went to that page, I just pulled that page from the cache.


And that's kind of like server-side rendering?


Or something kind of, I guess, in between there, right?


Well, it pretty much is server-side rendering plus caching.


But there's an additional bit on the spectrum, kind of, which is server-side rendering and


hydration.


If you say, OK, so here's the thing.


I don't know.


Let's say I have a blog.


And on this blog, I do have comments that work a little bit like a chat.


So you should be seeing when people are typing things.


But there's nothing stopping me from building this in JavaScript.


And then if I do it completely client-side, that's a little bit of a waste.


Because then basically everyone who comes to my website then has to run the JavaScript


to generate just the static part of the content, like the article and the comments that have


been written beforehand.


So I could just use the same code base that I used to make that happen dynamically and


flexibly in the browser.


I can run that on the server to get all the content that already exists from the database


or from a cache.


I mean, caching is fine.


And then load the JavaScript in the browser, kind of, again, to then also have the dynamic


bits and pieces where when people are typing it, it says, like, someone is typing a new


comment and things like that and have it more chatty-like.


So then you get the best of both worlds, kind of.


And that's why you would do this.


Because then you have one code base.


And you get the benefits of server-side rendering.


But you also get the benefits of client-side rendering, where server-side rendering gives


you speed and stability, and client-side rendering gives you the flexibility and dynamicness


of, I think it's just like the dynamic, the dynamic of an application in the browser.


So you're kind of saying all of these things are not pure SEO techniques?


Like they were made for other reasons, actually?


Yeah.


One thing is, it's often quoted, developer experience.


It's like, as a developer, you don't want to write a bazillion different pieces of code


that kind of do the same thing.


You obviously try to write one piece of code that is then easier to maintain than three


or four pieces of code that are kind of doing the same thing.


The other thing is user experience, which I think is even more important than developer


experience.


Because browsers are damn good at parsing HTML as it arrives, whereas JavaScript, I


mean, the JavaScript engines get faster and faster.


But still, they have to get the entire JavaScript blob, then parse that, then execute that.


And then that makes network requests to fetch data.


And then that creates the HTML that's bound to be slower than make a network request,


get the HTML, start rendering.


There's no way that we can speed that up with pure JavaScript, I think.


I have an idea.


Uh-oh.


What?


What if we make JavaScript a ranking signal?


And if you use JavaScript, then your site will rank lower?


What if we make you a ranking signal?


And whenever you're having bad mood or comments like this, then websites just generally rank


better, which would lead to everything ranking better and every SEO being happy.


How about that?


Martin, this is a horrible idea.


That's what I was about to say.


Oh, that's amazing.


So we agree.


I love this.


So we should put little GIFs of Gary and Martin on pages.


It's GIFs.


GIFs.


Thanks, Gary.


No?


I don't know how his name is wrong, how his own invention is actually properly named.


OK.


So we'll make pings.


What about pings?


That's good.


I like that.


I didn't know that people pronounce it like that.


We can make webs.


Webs are animated too, right?


What are webs?


Webs.


I only know web-n or web-p.


Ah, yeah.


Web-p.


Oh, our pop filter is not helping with this.


Our pop filter really isn't helping with this.


I have no idea what you two are talking about, by the way.


So we have that format, the web-p.


We are talking about that.


Oh, webs.


Yeah, if you make multiple webs.


Yes.


I completely forgot that that exists.


Well, shame on you.


So we could make one web of Martin and one web of Gary.


And if you put them both on the same page, it kind of evens out.


And your page will rank equally as before.


How about that?


So if we just create a new meta tag called metaname-ranking, and then it can have the


values good or bad.


We already have that.


Which one is it?


Well, we have meta-page-rank.


And you can assign whatever value to it, and that will be your page rank.


Oh, I love that.


That's amazing.


More people shouldn't use this, I think.


Is that shouldn't use it or should use it?


Should use it.


Oh, OK.


Everyone should have it.


Just checking.


Yeah, no, I'm serious now.


And another thing that kind of surprised me while I was at this entire demystifying the


different rendering scenarios and performance of each of them and blah is that a lot of


people are sending me questions via direct messages on Twitter.


Or some people even guess my email address.


And then with the emails, I just ignore them because I don't want to encourage that.


Because we can't really, as far as I'm aware, we can't really answer things in private,


right?


Yeah, that's generally right.


Do you get these kind of things?


And how do you deal with them?


Sometimes.


Yeah, this is an interesting topic and something that we should talk about, perhaps.


It's also a hairy topic, so bear with me.


Generally, bears are hairy.


Yeah, that's true.


Sorry.


I want to quit.


No, keep talking about it.


How do you deal with these things?


Teach me your ways.


So this is kind of a sensitive topic.


In general, we or I don't.


And when I get an email from someone asking for help, then usually I will read the email


at least so I know what is it about.


But in the vast majority of the cases, I will opt for not answering.


And in this case, it's not because I'm mean, but it's because we have an internal policy


called honest results.


And that policy helps us keep the playing field equal for everyone.


So basically, it doesn't matter if you are a small publisher or a big publisher, or you


spend $1 or you spend nothing with Google, or you spend millions of dollars with Google


Ads, or you have your own Google product, you work at Google and you have your product,


or you have Google acquaintance, an employee working at Google, it doesn't matter.


We have to keep the playing field equal for everyone.


And based on that policy, I usually opt for not answering.


Basically if someone wants to get an answer, then I would much more prefer if they asked


in public.


I don't know how John handles these kind of questions, but this is my way and this is


my interpretation of the quite clear policy that doesn't require interpretation.


So I get a lot of these emails and direct messages as well, sometimes by Twitter, sometimes


through other channels.


And for the most part, I do try to funnel them through the public channels.


So from my side, that's kind of like publicly on Twitter asking in the public realm there,


joining the office hours, hang out, asking there.


But I also send a lot of people to the Webmaster Help forums that we have, where various experts


are active there that can try to help resolve an issue or help look at other ways of looking


at an issue.


And if they don't see ways to resolve it, then they can also escalate that to Googlers.


The main reason why sometimes I look at things that come in privately is to kind of double


check to see what's happening there.


So in many cases, people will be like, I have this problem in search and my website is not


indexing anymore.


And you're like, well, it's like, OK, but I have no idea what you're talking about.


Can you at least give me some examples?


And those examples that they send are sometimes useful to figure out, is this more of a systemic


issue or is this something that is kind of like a one off on their website?


So that's kind of where I look at those emails.


Yeah.


I think that's an important bit.


If we notice that there might be something systemic going on, then we generally would


start looking into it and escalate because we do want to catch outages, as we talked


about this in previous episodes.


And these kind of emails generally can help with that.


So for example, during the last outage that was a few weeks ago, I think both John and


I noticed that we started getting emails that follow that very specific pattern or pointed


in the same general direction.


And that helped us identify that there was an ongoing issue with search.


But in general, we try not to dig too much, I guess.


And also the same applies if there's an internal escalation.


Like for example, we have Google employees who talk to external folks.


For example, people working on Google Ads, say account managers, obviously they talk


to their publishers, their advertisers.


And in some cases, those advertisers might face an issue with organic search.


And our culture is kind of try to be helpful, and the account managers would try to help


those publishers.


And then they would escalate internally or try to escalate internally.


And we can't take those questions.


We can't answer them.


We can't even really debug them because that would give an unfair advantage to publisher


or advertiser who spends money with Google.


And it just wouldn't be fair with the wide ecosystem.


We do know that this puts the account manager, for example, or whoever took the question


from the external party in a tough position.


But we do have to, and I stress this a lot, we do want to keep a fair playing field for


everyone.


Yeah.


And that makes it also so tricky.


So I do read these emails.


I do read the direct messages.


But one thing with direct messages is that I think they're inherently unfair, especially


on some social media platforms where you can't search in them.


So like Twitter direct messages, for instance, I don't want to point out Twitter specifically,


but they are like a fire hose.


Either you are lucky and I see them because I happen to be in my direct messages at the


time yours comes in, or I don't.


And I only recently noticed that there's two different.


So if someone I don't follow writes a direct message, they land on two different lists.


Apparently there's like the message requests and then there's like whatever they consider


a filtered message request.


And I only recently found out that the second list exists and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm so


sorry.


There's this like message from a week ago in this list that I just learned that exists.


And it's one that is after looking into it, a one off issue.


And I don't feel like I should respond to them.


So I usually then send like a response like, Hey, sorry, I can't provide you with private


support.


Please go to the webmaster forum.


Or if it's a JavaScript specific problem to my office hours, if it's a more general problem


to John's office hours, or if it's a JavaScript specific issue, you can also go to the mailing


list bit.ly slash JS dash sites dash WG.


And then I hope for understanding and most people are really understanding and some people


are just like repeating the question and I'm like, I'm sorry, I want to be helpful.


I want to help you here, but I can't, there are the public channels, please use the public


channels.


And yeah, if you are unlucky and you send them during the night, for instance, and like


20 other people sent me direct messages, I'm literally just not seeing them.


Right.


One thing that I sometimes do when someone asks me something in public on Twitter, for


example, and then I would ask for a URL because I do want to debug and then they say that,


well, they can't post the URL in public.


Then I would DM them and ask for the URL.


And then at least with that, I can start debugging, but I would not continue providing support


in private.


I would go back on the public Twitter thread and continue there without disclosing anything


about the site, of course, because that's how they chose to proceed with the escalation.


And sometimes if I do see the direct messages and they are asking for something that is


documented publicly, I just send them the link to the public docs.


I think that's fine too.


This all sounds like kind of random ranking questions and how do I do this in search kind


of thing.


But what if there's a real bug in search, like you search for, I don't know, my name


and some political scientist shows up instead of a photo of me, which is like an obvious


bug.


And if I were an advertiser and went to my account manager and reported that, would you


say, well, this is a bug.


We will fix this immediately.


Or what would you do there?


Here's the thing.


We know that our results are not perfect, but we also cannot take literally every question.


There's just no way that we could.


Like if we could hire perhaps like 100,000 engineers whose only job is to work on search


and debugging search issues, maybe we could take a look at every single escalation that


we get perhaps.


But in the current state, it's just not feasible to take every question and debug and fix every


potential issue that we find.


The other aspect to this is that like I can't take questions or I can give preferential


treatment to acquaintances or friends.


So I wouldn't be able to escalate your issue, John.


Sorry.


Oh, no.


Well, tough up.


I was going to say my site, I am an advertiser at Google and my site is really important.


It's nothing like my actual blog.


And it's something that lots of people search for on Google and they really want to find


it and suddenly it gets dropped from the index and I contact my account manager and I'm like


really angry and like, I will stop advertising with Google unless you fix this indexing issue


for my site.


What kind of thing would happen there?


So here's the thing.


The point where you lost me is the money aspect of it.


Well, you partially lost me.


Whenever I see that people are quoting that they spend millions with Google ads, it's


like, well, yeah, okay.


And basically that's it.


That will not make us debug.


In this context, in your questions context, what might make a difference is that the policy


recognizes that we might need to take action where we know that the problem is affecting


lots of our users, but those kinds of decisions are essentially made by the search leadership,


not individual search engineers or us essentially.


Okay.


But those exceptions are not based on how important I feel my site is.


It's based on some objective measure that Google would apply.


Yes, indeed.


Yes.


Or based on how much you spend on Google ads or any other Google product, Google Cloud


or whatever, or how important you think your site is, or pretty much anything, just objectively


how important your site is for Google users.


So basically if I have a problem with my site in search, then I need to go to the public


channels.


But what if the problem is not my site per se, but rather some spam that is ranking


above my site?


And it's like, surely Google wants to clean out that spam, right?


Now I feel like I'm in a deposition or a journalist grilling me or some easy hearing or something.


Thank you for these questions, John.


They are very, they are great.


So spam is yet another thing that we don't like in our results and we do our best to


keep it out the results.


And we encourage people to submit spam reports.


I don't remember how you can get to that spam report form, but you can search for it and


you will probably find it.


But we take those spam reports in aggregate.


We don't take action on individual spam reports.


We look at the bigger picture painted by the spam reports and try to find scalable ways


to deal with specific kinds of spam.


So if you have an issue with spam, then yeah, report it.


And that's pretty much your best bet.


And just don't wait for a quick action because that's not how it happens.


OK, cool.


But I guess another question I sometimes see, especially from kind of coworkers on the sales


side is when a site has trouble verifying in Search Console or when they have trouble


using Search Console in a specific way, would that fall under this kind of policy as well?


Or would we say, well, Search Console is just a product and using it doesn't affect search?


Well, Search Console is a search product.


So by definition, it falls under honest results.


And I know it's super frustrating for account managers and customer support managers and


whoever talks to external folks and escalates internally.


But even there, we cannot give unfair advantage because think about it, we wouldn't be able


to give the same level of support to someone who is, I don't know, computer illiterate


and happens to find our email and email us because we just don't have capacity for that.


If we had capacity for that, then again, it might make things different.


But currently, we don't.


And we do want to have a fair or a level playing field for everyone.


That sounds pretty good.


I do see how frustrating this can be for our coworkers on the sales side with these kind


of things.


I don't know, do you also sometimes see these cases being escalated up where it's like,


my boss will talk to your boss and then next boss and VP and whatever?


Do you see those kind of situations being helpful?


Or does that not change anything?


Oh, turns out that I have feelings, which I didn't know.


But sometimes they come up and it's weird.


And when people escalate to us and we have to tell them no because honest results, I


do feel bad for them because I worked on support a long while ago before Google.


And I know that it puts them in a very tough position.


But escalating on the ladder is not making anything better.


If anything, I might actually develop a bias against that person and essentially don't


feel anything next time they escalate something and just be more blunt with them on email


when they will escalate.


And also, I think those working on honest results, those who are enforcing the policy,


they also don't really appreciate these ladder escalations because ultimately, the honest


results internally is very clear on what we can do and what we cannot as a search team,


where we can take escalations from and where we cannot.


And just escalating on the ladder will not solve literally anything.


If anything, it will just add more frustration.


So have you seen some of these sites where you push back for honest results reasons,


end up going to the public channels?


Or do they just try to figure things out in different ways?


I did, actually.


I do see every now and then people who I push back on post on Twitter, for example.


If I recognize the name, then I don't even need the URL from them.


I can start looking.


But they would still get the same level of support.


So for example, if I miss their tweet, for example, I will not go and actively look for


their tweet.


If it happens to show up in my face when I go to Twitter, which happens a lot, then I


might start looking.


But then that happens with other tweets as well.


Cool.


So if you were working at a bigger company that had relationships with Google already,


what would you do if you ran into a search issue with your website?


It's not being indexed properly.


It's ranking in a way that you think is bad.


Would you still try through the account manager side?


Or would you say, oh, I'll just do everything public?


Honestly, I would go to your office hours.


Yeah, these office hours.


So I tend to do them about once a week.


And I post about them on our YouTube channel in the community section.


So if you go there, you can find out when the next ones are.


We also have them listed on the events page for the group overall.


So in that events calendar, you can see the next office hours that are lined up.


And usually what happens is people can post their questions on YouTube.


And I'll post the link to join the office hour session, which is basically just a video


call with a smaller group of people.


And they can join in, ask questions directly, interact a little bit.


And we'll post a recording of that afterwards on the YouTube channel.


So go to youtube.com slash Google Webmasters or to google.com slash webmasters slash connect,


I think, right?


Wow.


You're like a walking bookmark collection, Martin.


Awesome.


Yeah.


Digging it.


I already worked on search, right?


Like I know that account managers or cloud customer managers, they can't authoritatively


answer search questions.


And I know already that they will be pushed back on.


So there's no point escalating there, but I would still rather talk to a person who


claims to be real and try to get some answer at least.


To me, it's obvious already that like we can't always give direct answers.


Like we can't directly answer something.


But I also found that just giving a general direction and I salute general direction can


be very helpful.


If you just see the path that you should take, that might already be enough to debug a certain


issue on your side or on my side, on non-Google side.


Cool.


And the other thing is that I know for certain that this person, John Miller, don't make


that face.


You know that person too.


He does escalate internally when he thinks that there's something systematic going on


or something looks utterly weird and we should perhaps debug.


And for that, we have internally this form called go slash bad or go bad where people


can escalate to the search team and ranking team issues that they think are important


and what they encountered themselves perhaps.


It's not a general debugging forum.


General debugging.


Yes.


It's not a general debugging.


It's not a debugging forum.


So it's not like the ranking team will take action or start debugging every single issue


posted there.


It's more like a collection of issues that were reported, I suppose.


Basically a historic records of issues so we can see that there is something systematic


going on, for example, or it's a one off issue.


OK.


So yeah, I would just go to the office hours.


I heard they are awesome.


I've never been, but I heard they're awesome.


They're fantastic.


And also I use the go bad form a few times with things that were quite badly broken and


they get triaged quite quickly if they are obviously problematic.


Yeah.


I mean, this is something that we see externally all the time.


I guess people who are more involved with search, they tend to have an eye for this


where someone on Twitter or some acquaintance will be like, oh, I searched for this kind


of popular term and I received these really weird results and it feels like Google should


be serving something better.


It's not that I have a site that is directly involved or that I have anything kind of tied


to this particular query, but this search is just kind of broken and it could be improved.


And for cases like that, this form is something that I really think is useful.


I mean, like you said, Gary, we just get so many different kinds of issues all the time.


It's impossible to fix everything that comes up.


And with any complex piece of software, I guess there are always some parts that are


subtly broken or sometimes visibly broken.


So there's always something to do, but it's cool to have kind of this way to report these


kind of issues.


I guess externally you can also use the feedback form directly in the search results, but some


times if something is really critically broken and really badly broken, then getting our


attention either like one of us three or Danny Sullivan or someone else on the search side


that can make it so that we can kind of recognize the issue a little bit faster and fix it a


little bit faster.


Yeah.


I'm kind of happy that you mentioned the feedback form because I know that some of the analysts


do escalate from those feedbacks to the Go Bad group, so they do get attention.


Like there is some human, well, someone who claims to be human, looking at those feedbacks


and taking them internally if they are actionable at least.


Cool, cool.


So I guess the other thing that is perhaps less common nowadays is when people go to


your desk and they ask questions there in person.


Is that something you've ended up doing, Gary?


I miss those times.


I used to have so much fun with going to others' desks.


What do you mean so much fun?


Like when he taped my mouse or when he put something into one of the USB ports and I


was like, why is this not working?


And yeah.


What do you mean one of the ports?


I thought it was all of the ports.


Right.


True.


Yeah.


All of them.


I would not go for one port.


Because recently after such a long time not being able to go, I tried to use my computer


and the mouse didn't work.


And I was like, hmm, I wonder if Gary was here.


But it turns out that my whole computer had just frozen.


I like to pull minor practical jokes on my coworkers.


And sometimes that ends up being very public expression of affection, I guess.


Oh, you mean like the time I expressed my love for cheese?


Yes.


That was one of those cases.


That was a friendly reminder that your computer has confidential information that others should


probably not see.


And your account has access to confidential information that others might not need to


see.


So I gave you a very affectionate hint to lock your computer when you are not at your


computer.


Of course, you were just like three feet, one meter away from the computer.


But still, I have to keep you on your toes.


So I posted in your name on Twitter that you love cheese.


You're welcome.


It was great.


I thought it was fun.


And it seemed to pick up some Steve as well.


It was like at one of the conferences, back when you went to conferences, it's like such


a long time ago.


At one of the conferences, someone gave me a cap and a t-shirt with I love cheese on


it.


It was fantastic.


Oh, that's awesome.


But now I'm safe.


Yeah.


At least I think I'm safe.


Don't give Gary ideas.


I miss conferences.


I do miss conferences too.


I used to get swag all the time.


I don't miss the swag, but I do miss the people and the point that you can have conversations.


Yeah, I only miss the swag.


I mean, look, like I'm showing it to you.


I'm sitting in a t-shirt with Daniel Weisberg's face on it.


Wow.


That's amazing.


I have Daniel Weisberg's face on my chest.


That came out wrong.


That came out very wrong.


On a t-shirt.


So you're saying we should have Daniel in this podcast as well?


Or is he indirectly present already?


Yeah, he's already here.


Come on.


And he's very quiet.


I appreciate that.


But we should definitely have guests.


Maybe we could have Anna, our producer, sometimes chime in, for example.


Oh, wow.


Like for example, she could explain how hard it is to work with us.


Well, with me.


Or we could have Lizzie, our tech writer.


Lizzie Harvey.


Oh, yeah.


We could have her.


We could have Cherry, for example.


Yes.


Cherry Promovin.


She's our teammate working on Southeast Asia, outreach in Southeast Asia.


Cool.


Well, actually, APAC, I think.


I think we're putting a lot of pressure on us now that we mention all of these people


that we could have as guests.


I'm doing it on purpose.


The other one I thought would be kind of cool is someone from the internal SEO team.


Because Google needs SEO as well.


Different Google properties.


And that would be, I guess, an interesting discussion also with regards to honest results


policies there.


How do they interact with us?


Oh, yeah.


Because from what I usually see, they come to us with a question sometimes.


And usually, they just get pushed back right away.


So it'd be interesting to see their side of that story, how that works out for them.


Yeah, we should definitely do it.


OK, fine.


We will get something set up.


Also, if you, listener, have ideas about what you would like to hear on this podcast, feel


free to ping us on Twitter.


And please don't self-nominate.


Direct messages, or would you prefer in the help forum?


No, not direct messages.


Public tweets.


Just tweets.


Also, they can't DM me.


I don't allow people to DM me.


OK, cool.


All right.


So I guess with that, let's take a break here.


Thank you all for listening in.


I hope that you found this insightful and kind of useful and saw a little bit of some


of the challenges that we face with all of the escalations that we get from people externally.


I always find it interesting to talk about these topics because it's like all of us get


different kinds of questions externally and hearing how we handle them is sometimes really


interesting.


So if you're keen on listening to the next episode, make sure to stay tuned.


Subscribe to the podcast.


And if you are one of the guests that we mentioned as being a potential guest, then I don't know,


watch out for an email from us.


And if you have feedback for us in general, feel free to drop that on Twitter.


Thanks again and see you next time.


Bye.


Auf Wiedersehn.


Let's talk image SEO

Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Search Off the Record, a podcast coming


Let's talk image SEO

to you from the Google search team discussing all things search and maybe having some fun


Let's talk image SEO

along the way.


Let's talk image SEO

My name's Lizzie, and today I'm joined by John, who's also on the search relations team.


Let's talk image SEO

In today's episode, I thought that we could talk about images.


Let's talk image SEO

Also I didn't let you say hello.


Let's talk image SEO

Hi Lizzie.


Let's talk image SEO

Hey.


Let's talk image SEO

So just to kick us off, I know that you've been doing a lot with Dolly and the crayon


Let's talk image SEO

site and all these kinds of places to get fun images, and I was wondering what would


Let's talk image SEO

you say to using Dolly to generate images for our site, Google Search Central, if we


Let's talk image SEO

just started piping that in to refresh our images across the whole site?


Let's talk image SEO

What would you say to that?


Let's talk image SEO

That would be an exciting move.


Let's talk image SEO

I think the tricky part would be if you're showing screenshots of specific things and


Let's talk image SEO

you're piping that into some machine art generated thing, then maybe you don't necessarily get


Let's talk image SEO

actual screenshots.


Let's talk image SEO

But it could be like, you know, impression art, you know?


Let's talk image SEO

Like what does the robot think that the search result should look like?


Let's talk image SEO

So kind of like Starry Night instead of stars for reviews.


Let's talk image SEO

Yes.


Let's talk image SEO

I mean, we could see like what does Dolly think a recipe rich results should look like?


Let's talk image SEO

OK.


Let's talk image SEO

It could go into an interesting direction.


Let's talk image SEO

OK, so it sounds like you're bought in.


Let's talk image SEO

I should do this?


Let's talk image SEO

I would try it out.


Let's talk image SEO

You don't want to tell me no?


Let's talk image SEO

I'm not going to say no.


Let's talk image SEO

I have no idea what it looks like.


Let's talk image SEO

Maybe it'll look really cool.


Let's talk image SEO

Or maybe for Halloween, we could do that.


Let's talk image SEO

Oh, like a spooky Halloween.


Let's talk image SEO

What does structured data look like in Halloween mode?


Let's talk image SEO

I did do one test where I pasted what we had as an alt description into Dolly to see what


Let's talk image SEO

would Dolly spit out.


Let's talk image SEO

I don't know if that's a nice way to think about it.


Let's talk image SEO

But like, oh, is this descriptive alt text enough such that Dolly would generate an accurate


Let's talk image SEO

depiction of whatever we intended this to be?


Let's talk image SEO

No.


Let's talk image SEO

It was like a recipe Google search results.


Let's talk image SEO

And it was using Google colors like our logo in different shapes and things, but no actual


Let's talk image SEO

search result.


Let's talk image SEO

No screenshot.


Let's talk image SEO

No nothing.


Let's talk image SEO

And I don't know, like maybe Dolly doesn't know about search results.


Let's talk image SEO

I think one of the tricky parts with all of these tools is it builds off a known library


Let's talk image SEO

of images.


Let's talk image SEO

And if there are not enough images reflected there, then whatever you ask is kind of very


Let's talk image SEO

vague.


Let's talk image SEO

So I tried a lot of SEO terms once.


Let's talk image SEO

And most of the time when it would recognize that this is something like marketing SEO


Let's talk image SEO

oriented, it would show me a graph of like some bar charts with a line graph going up.


Let's talk image SEO

And it's like, this is SEO.


Let's talk image SEO

It's like, well, it's kind of like it's.


Let's talk image SEO

That's like your opinion, man.


Let's talk image SEO

Yeah, exactly.


Let's talk image SEO

OK, so maybe we experiment more with this.


Let's talk image SEO

Maybe Dolly just needs to know more about SEO and then it could start doing the work


Let's talk image SEO

for us.


Let's talk image SEO

Maybe we have to build our own model.


Let's talk image SEO

It's like, take the whole site and put it into one of these systems.


Let's talk image SEO

And then in the future, we can just have it generate new screenshots for us.


Let's talk image SEO

That's true.


Let's talk image SEO

Well, I guess in reality, I bring this up because I'm looking for ways to make the work


Let's talk image SEO

go faster, I guess, or maybe be more exciting.


Let's talk image SEO

We've got a lot of images on our site, Google Search Central, which we oftentimes call onesie.


Let's talk image SEO

And not all of the images have alt text.


Let's talk image SEO

And we've not done all that we can there.


Let's talk image SEO

Another angle perhaps is to consider would we ever use stock photography on onesie?


Let's talk image SEO

What would you say to something like that?


Let's talk image SEO

So stock photography to avoid having to, I don't know, make a screenshot?


Let's talk image SEO

Well, it could be like for fun.


Let's talk image SEO

Sometimes we have like, oh, we want like a fun cosmetic image for like a blog post or


Let's talk image SEO

something like that.


Let's talk image SEO

I mean, you would also say OK.


Let's talk image SEO

Sure.


Let's talk image SEO

Or would there be downsides to using stock photography?


Let's talk image SEO

I think if you wanted to use them as a decorative element on a page, it's perfectly fine.


Let's talk image SEO

It adds a little bit flavor, a little bit more color to the post or to whatever content


Let's talk image SEO

we have there.


Let's talk image SEO

So if it's a, I don't know, Halloween themed article, then adding, I don't know, stock


Let's talk image SEO

photography of a spider.


Let's talk image SEO

I guess spider you wouldn't want to have too realistic.


Let's talk image SEO

That might be triggering for some people.


Let's talk image SEO

But some stock photography that's Halloween themed and not too scary for our site, I guess,


Let's talk image SEO

that would be perfectly fine.


Let's talk image SEO

But it's Halloween, John.


Let's talk image SEO

You could be on theme.


Let's talk image SEO

No.


Let's talk image SEO

We're like Google.


Let's talk image SEO

It's like we can't just put like super scary stuff on our documentation.


Let's talk image SEO

But I think the aspect there is it's stock photography.


Let's talk image SEO

And if people are searching for Halloween photos, it's unlikely that we would show up


Let's talk image SEO

in the search results for that.


Let's talk image SEO

We would have that image, but probably, I don't know, 20, 30 other sites have the same


Let's talk image SEO

image.


Let's talk image SEO

And they all have a license for it.


Let's talk image SEO

And showing it is fine.


Let's talk image SEO

And perhaps even the original stock photography site has that image in the search results.


Let's talk image SEO

And if you're searching for something like a Halloween image, then you probably want


Let's talk image SEO

to go to that original site.


Let's talk image SEO

It's not that Google's documentation should rank for that query.


Let's talk image SEO

That's a good point.


Let's talk image SEO

I guess maybe if it was Googlebot in a Halloween costume or something, maybe we would have


Let's talk image SEO

something there.


Let's talk image SEO

Sure.


Let's talk image SEO

But if it's like a, I don't know, generic stock photography like person typing on a


Let's talk image SEO

computer, that kind of query, we wouldn't necessarily want our computer.


Let's talk image SEO

I don't know.


Let's talk image SEO

Maybe we have like an image for a showcase search console.


Let's talk image SEO

Like you use search console on a computer.


Let's talk image SEO

Here is like the graph and everything.


Let's talk image SEO

And it's on a laptop.


Let's talk image SEO

But it's not necessarily that we want to show for stock photography type queries, I guess.


Let's talk image SEO

Well, there's stock photography of people using search console, actually.


Let's talk image SEO

Oh, really?


Let's talk image SEO

Is this a whole like niche market?


Let's talk image SEO

Someone created a bunch of photos with a laptop open, with search console open.


Let's talk image SEO

They're like, typing stuff into a laptop with a search console in the background.


Let's talk image SEO

So we could have topical stock photography as well.


Let's talk image SEO

I guess theoretically.


Let's talk image SEO

I guess the other aspect is also like you wouldn't rank for this in image search, but


Let's talk image SEO

it doesn't count against you either.


Let's talk image SEO

So if you have other good images on the same page or on the site, or if you're talking


Let's talk image SEO

about web search, that's not going to harm your site.


Let's talk image SEO

It's more it's like, well, it's decorative, but it's not what your site is about.


Let's talk image SEO

Therefore, you won't rank for that specific stock photography, but everything else will


Let's talk image SEO

be fine.


Let's talk image SEO

It's not that we say, oh, this is a generic site, we shouldn't show it in search.


Let's talk image SEO

All right.


Let's talk image SEO

So we've got lots of images on our site already, and we're not necessarily looking to go get


Let's talk image SEO

stock photography.


Let's talk image SEO

But what would be, I guess, one of the first things that we should focus on in terms of


Let's talk image SEO

trying to get better with image SEO or traffic from Google Images?


Let's talk image SEO

What would be the first place to start?


Let's talk image SEO

I think from my side, what I would recommend as a strategic starting point is to think


Let's talk image SEO

about what do you think people would search for in a visual way to come to your website.


Let's talk image SEO

And I think that aspect is always something that you should be thinking about when you're


Let's talk image SEO

kind of working through these SEO things.


Let's talk image SEO

But it's always tempting to also just dive into the details and say, oh, I need to do


Let's talk image SEO

these five things.


Let's talk image SEO

I will do these five things.


Let's talk image SEO

And I don't want to plan.


Let's talk image SEO

That's too much overhead.


Let's talk image SEO

Yeah.


Let's talk image SEO

It's difficult to think in that space.


Let's talk image SEO

But you're so right, because a lot of these checklist type things is like, oh, here's


Let's talk image SEO

10 things you can do to improve on image search.


Let's talk image SEO

And first one is write alt text and just start putting these tags or this kind of thing or


Let's talk image SEO

get images.


Let's talk image SEO

But actually, the step before that is think about, is this even a goal that is applicable


Let's talk image SEO

for my site?


Let's talk image SEO

Do I need to be focusing on this?


Let's talk image SEO

Or does it even make sense to focus on this?


Let's talk image SEO

And would this be strategic in the grand picture of all things that we could possibly be doing


Let's talk image SEO

on our site?


Let's talk image SEO

That kind of thing.


Let's talk image SEO

But I don't know.


Let's talk image SEO

Who wants to think about strategy?


Let's talk image SEO

Let's look at the technical stuff.


Let's talk image SEO

All right.


Let's talk image SEO

So the technical stuff.


Let's talk image SEO

So the first thing would be, yes, consider it.


Let's talk image SEO

I've decided yes, images make sense for my site.


Let's talk image SEO

I think that people should be able to find us in image search if they're looking for


Let's talk image SEO

some visual type query.


Let's talk image SEO

Maybe it's for pictures of search result features or something like that.


Let's talk image SEO

They might be discovering our documentation through that angle.


Let's talk image SEO

Would step one be alt text?


Let's talk image SEO

Sure.


Let's talk image SEO

So we've already got images.


Let's talk image SEO

And maybe not all of them.


Let's talk image SEO

I mean, this is true.


Let's talk image SEO

Not all of the images have alt text.


Let's talk image SEO

But there are so many images.


Let's talk image SEO

How would you go about?


Let's talk image SEO

Would it just be a top down systematic, here's a list of all the images I've found that are


Let's talk image SEO

missing alt text.


Let's talk image SEO

Let's add it just one by one?


Let's talk image SEO

Or would there be more strategy there in terms of where do you even begin?


Let's talk image SEO

It can be kind of overwhelming looking at like...


Let's talk image SEO

I mean, I'm speaking from my own experience, I guess.


Let's talk image SEO

Like there's so many images.


Let's talk image SEO

We have images on old blog posts, like decorative images.


Let's talk image SEO

It could be like...


Let's talk image SEO

I guess one way to look at it is pages that have the most traffic already.


Let's talk image SEO

People are interested in this page.


Let's talk image SEO

So let's start with those pages are like the pages we think that should be improved.


Let's talk image SEO

And perhaps that makes sense.


Let's talk image SEO

Or they are lending themselves to being found with a visual query and start optimizing those


Let's talk image SEO

ones.


Let's talk image SEO

And then there's still a long list of potentials.


Let's talk image SEO

Yeah.


Let's talk image SEO

I mean, on the one hand, you could think about your image search goals, kind of that strategy


Let's talk image SEO

that we're trying to avoid talking about.


Let's talk image SEO

Oh, we just keep coming back to it.


Let's talk image SEO

And kind of focus on what you want to have found in image search and make sure that that's


Let's talk image SEO

really set up well.


Let's talk image SEO

The other aspect is to focus more on what is already being found, maybe in web search.


Let's talk image SEO

Kind of the pages that get the most impressions or that get the most clicks from Search Console


Let's talk image SEO

and then kind of cross that with the alt text that you already have.


Let's talk image SEO

There's some crawlers that you can run across your website where you can pull out all of


Let's talk image SEO

the alt text that you currently have, put them in a spreadsheet, and then filter for


Let's talk image SEO

empty ones.


Let's talk image SEO

And kind of cross that with your list of impressions or clicks from Search Console.


Let's talk image SEO

And then from there, determine these are the most visible pieces of content.


Let's talk image SEO

And they don't have alt text.


Let's talk image SEO

Maybe we should focus on those first.


Let's talk image SEO

That's a good idea.


Let's talk image SEO

What if you've got alt text, but you're not sure if it's good?


Let's talk image SEO

Like it could be improved in terms of being descriptive or it's describing the image,


Let's talk image SEO

but not necessarily in the best way.


Let's talk image SEO

But once you start to sit down and actually write the alt text, you discover that you


Let's talk image SEO

could say a lot of things about like, oh, it's a search result or you're describing


Let's talk image SEO

something that's happening.


Let's talk image SEO

Maybe it's a diagram of how search works, like something that's describing a concept


Let's talk image SEO

or it's a picture of an event or something like that.


Let's talk image SEO

Do you approach it from describing what's in there or are there other strategies that


Let's talk image SEO

we could apply for improving the words that we're using for a given image?


Let's talk image SEO

So I think you have to watch out for accessibility.


Let's talk image SEO

I don't know.


Let's talk image SEO

Everything around accessibility.


Let's talk image SEO

So that might be something to check out with someone who is a little bit more informed


Let's talk image SEO

on the accessibility side, like how alt text should be chosen.


Let's talk image SEO

From an SEO point of view, my recommendation is always to provide context for the image


Let's talk image SEO

as well in the alt text.


Let's talk image SEO

So if you have a picture of a beach, don't just be like, oh, this is a photo of a beach,


Let's talk image SEO

but rather like this is the beach before the chemical spell happened.


Let's talk image SEO

Because it's very different context.


Let's talk image SEO

If someone is searching for a beach for a holiday, it's like, oh, I want to see a beautiful


Let's talk image SEO

beach.


Let's talk image SEO

I'll go there on vacation.


Let's talk image SEO

And if you notice, well, actually, this is before the chemical spell happened, then it's


Let's talk image SEO

like, well, maybe that would lend itself to different kinds of search queries.


Let's talk image SEO

Because ultimately, when you're talking about image search, it's not that people want an


Let's talk image SEO

image, but rather they want information which is attached to that image.


Let's talk image SEO

They want to understand a specific topic, to find some information, and that additional


Let's talk image SEO

context is something that you can provide in the alt text.


Let's talk image SEO

And that's something that they might be searching for.


Let's talk image SEO

And if they're searching for it, then make it easy for them to find that.


Let's talk image SEO

That's true.


Let's talk image SEO

And putting context around the image too, because you don't necessarily need to put


Let's talk image SEO

all of it in the alt text.


Let's talk image SEO

It could be the paragraph that's introducing the beach, and it may have more information


Let's talk image SEO

about where it happened, like what beach are we at, and what year was it, and all this


Let's talk image SEO

stuff.


Let's talk image SEO

And using that real estate around the image, because you don't necessarily want a huge


Let's talk image SEO

paragraph as the alt text either.


Let's talk image SEO

Right?


Let's talk image SEO

So how do you know which text should go where?


Let's talk image SEO

But providing context, I think, is always good to introduce the thing for screen readers


Let's talk image SEO

as well, because it's reading top down.


Let's talk image SEO

So if there's some text before it to prep you, like, all right, this is background about


Let's talk image SEO

what was happening before the oil spill, and now it's the beach pre-oil spill, more information,


Let's talk image SEO

and then the beach posts, no, during the oil spill, and then the cleanup activity.


Let's talk image SEO

I don't know.


Let's talk image SEO

That kind of thing.


Let's talk image SEO

Something along those lines.


Let's talk image SEO

So if you're looking at the search documentation, and you have a sample of a screenshot with


Let's talk image SEO

a recipe result, then you could provide some additional context, I guess, in the alt text,


Let's talk image SEO

where you say, like, this is a recipe result with these five fields.


Let's talk image SEO

Yes.


Let's talk image SEO

And, I mean, that's even the way that you phrased the sentence there, like, this is


Let's talk image SEO

a recipe, rich result.


Let's talk image SEO

Like, that probably isn't the best alt text, because it's like a full sentence.


Let's talk image SEO

It starts with words that are not related to the thing.


Let's talk image SEO

And perhaps people also using screen reader would just skip through it.


Let's talk image SEO

So one of the best practices is not to start every image with a screenshot of, a screenshot


Let's talk image SEO

of, because then it just becomes repetitive.


Let's talk image SEO

We already are aware that it's an image.


Let's talk image SEO

You don't need to say it's an image of, and then the thing.


Let's talk image SEO

Just launch in with whatever the description is.


Let's talk image SEO

And it also doesn't necessarily need to be a full sentence, I think.


Let's talk image SEO

It could be just a descriptive phrase.


Let's talk image SEO

It doesn't need to be a full thought, I think.


Let's talk image SEO

I think that makes a lot of sense.


Let's talk image SEO

I mean, the tricky part is probably balancing the two sides.


Let's talk image SEO

The kind of accessibility aspect, what people want from an alt text for accessibility, and


Let's talk image SEO

then the SEO aspect, where you would do some things.


Let's talk image SEO

Like, traditionally, you would do some things that might be slightly different.


Let's talk image SEO

Like, you would list a bunch of synonyms, for example.


Let's talk image SEO

It's like, oh, this is a beach at the ocean with waves.


Let's talk image SEO

And that's the kind of stuff where sometimes it makes sense to do that in the alt text


Let's talk image SEO

for SEO reasons, but probably not for accessibility reasons.


Let's talk image SEO

And finding that balance is something that's sometimes a bit tricky.


Let's talk image SEO

So yeah, it's good to watch out for that.


Let's talk image SEO

But if you're just adding alt text for the first time, then sometimes even any alt text


Let's talk image SEO

is better than nothing.


Let's talk image SEO

Like, at least starting with something, but then what can you do to even improve on top


Let's talk image SEO

of that?


Let's talk image SEO

And that's definitely something that I think I struggle with more, the more you get into


Let's talk image SEO

decorative images or things that are not, I don't know.


Let's talk image SEO

The search result thing is fairly straightforward, but once it gets into things like, oh, this


Let's talk image SEO

is a concept, or it's decorative, so it doesn't...


Let's talk image SEO

There are some places that say, oh, you don't need to put alt text in a decorative image.


Let's talk image SEO

Like if it's purely there just for aesthetics, then it's better to just leave the alt text


Let's talk image SEO

empty.


Let's talk image SEO

But on the other hand, like, well, why would I have put it there?


Let's talk image SEO

Like there was a reason to put it there, so shouldn't we have something that fills that


Let's talk image SEO

gap for the experience of someone who's not seeing the image?


Let's talk image SEO

Like, shouldn't we have a replacement thing?


Let's talk image SEO

Like it was serving a purpose, we put it there for a reason.


Let's talk image SEO

Like, what would be an alternate experience to still get that information across, I guess?


Let's talk image SEO

So for the Googlebot doing stuff, sometimes we have these, I guess what would be categorized


Let's talk image SEO

as a decorative image, where it's like, Googlebot is exploring the web or something, or it's


Let's talk image SEO

conveying some kind of idea, and should the alt text focus on the idea?


Let's talk image SEO

Or like, oh, it's Googlebot with some friends.


Let's talk image SEO

Or it's Googlebot putting spam into a computer and then being happy at the end, like describing


Let's talk image SEO

what is happening in there so that you still sort of get the idea of what was meant to


Let's talk image SEO

be there.


Let's talk image SEO

I guess one of the things that, yeah, confuses me.


Let's talk image SEO

Now, I mean, from a personal point of view, I would definitely add alt text to these kind


Let's talk image SEO

of images, because they're kind of unique and special.


Let's talk image SEO

It's not, I don't know, a floral background or something like that.


Let's talk image SEO

It's actually something where people spent a lot of time creating that image, and it's


Let's talk image SEO

also something that people might want to find in the search results.


Let's talk image SEO

So if you're searching for Googlebot, like, we spent so much time creating all of these


Let's talk image SEO

images, it would be nice to be able to be found for them as well.


Let's talk image SEO

Exactly.


Let's talk image SEO

Like, the level of care in which we spent on the visual asset, we should also put the


Let's talk image SEO

same level of energy into the words that describe that asset as well, which I think is great.


Let's talk image SEO

Another category of images is like the functional thing, which sometimes could be like a button.


Let's talk image SEO

Like it's a graphic that also functions as something.


Let's talk image SEO

So should the alt text tell me what's about to happen?


Let's talk image SEO

Like if you click this, then it's going to take you here.


Let's talk image SEO

It could be like an image of something that then also functions as a button.


Let's talk image SEO

And do you describe the function?


Let's talk image SEO

Or like also it was, I don't know, like an arrow picture.


Let's talk image SEO

And then also it doesn't matter for SEO.


Let's talk image SEO

Yeah, I think for accessibility that probably makes sense to just do something around that.


Let's talk image SEO

But for SEO, like people are not going to search for the checkout button or something


Let's talk image SEO

like that.


Let's talk image SEO

No.


Let's talk image SEO

But maybe they would for like the logo or something.


Let's talk image SEO

Like the logo, like when you click it, it takes you to the homepage or something, but


Let's talk image SEO

it's also, oh, it's a logo.


Let's talk image SEO

So do you say this is the logo for Google search central or like what would be descriptive


Let's talk image SEO

texts?


Let's talk image SEO

Like it's Google bot in the logo, but is the thing that's most important to know about


Let's talk image SEO

that image, like the fact that it's a logo or what the logo looks like, I guess from


Let's talk image SEO

that angle, people are probably looking for like the logo.


Let's talk image SEO

What is the logo for X company maybe?


Let's talk image SEO

I mean, it goes back to kind of that strategy that we're trying to avoid.


Let's talk image SEO

What do you want to be found for?


Let's talk image SEO

Yeah, but it's like that's the most important question, I guess, because it sort of steers.


Let's talk image SEO

I can get carried away with all these rabbit holes.


Let's talk image SEO

So it sort of, I don't know, prioritizes what are the things that we should be thinking


Let's talk image SEO

of because you don't necessarily need to write all the things for these things.


Let's talk image SEO

So another part where you could focus your attention, I guess, would be the file name.


Let's talk image SEO

So words for the name of the image itself.


Let's talk image SEO

How important is that?


Let's talk image SEO

Cause that's like an area where I have not invested much effort, but I don't know, like,


Let's talk image SEO

should we, what if I went and just changed all of the images on our site to have a different


Let's talk image SEO

file name to be more descriptive or I don't know, like to put more words there too, like


Let's talk image SEO

in addition to the alt text.


Let's talk image SEO

We do recommend doing something with the file names in our image guidelines.


Let's talk image SEO

So like having descriptive file names is good, but I don't think you would see a significant


Let's talk image SEO

change if you already do the other things around images like the alt text, the text


Let's talk image SEO

surrounding the image.


Let's talk image SEO

Those are really, really strong signals.


Let's talk image SEO

And the file name itself is often, it's kind of like from a technical point of view, this


Let's talk image SEO

is what we called it, but it doesn't provide any real unique information usually.


Let's talk image SEO

Of course, if you don't do the alt text or if you don't have good surrounding texts,


Let's talk image SEO

then of course the file name might be the only place where you mentioned what this image


Let's talk image SEO

is about.


Let's talk image SEO

But if you do the rest, then usually the file names are okay.


Let's talk image SEO

And the other thing with file names, especially for images, is when we, when we crawl images,


Let's talk image SEO

we tend not to crawl them as often because usually they don't change a lot.


Let's talk image SEO

So that means if you change all of the file names across the website, then it's going


Let's talk image SEO

to take a lot of time for Google systems to see, oh, well, this is a new image and we


Let's talk image SEO

have to kind of like look at it at some point.


Let's talk image SEO

And to understand kind of that connection between the old image and the new one, that's


Let's talk image SEO

something that's just going to take a very long time.


Let's talk image SEO

So if you changed all of them at once, my guess is, I don't know, over a period of a


Let's talk image SEO

couple of months, at least, it'll be kind of annoying in image search in that we kind


Let's talk image SEO

of dropped the old ones first because they're no longer mentioned on the page and pick up


Let's talk image SEO

the new ones in a really slow way.


Let's talk image SEO

So that's something where I would try to only do that if it's really, really critical.


Let's talk image SEO

Like when we did the transition from blogger to the new setup for the blog posts, of course,


Let's talk image SEO

images had to be moved as well.


Let's talk image SEO

And at that point, I was like, sure, I was like, change the file name, move the image


Let's talk image SEO

to a different URL.


Let's talk image SEO

But otherwise, once they're moved on the site and you're just like tweaking things and it's


Let's talk image SEO

like, oh, I have a new system for image file names, I don't think that would make it better.


Let's talk image SEO

That probably would have minimal effect, maybe no visible effect at all.


Let's talk image SEO

For the amount of effort.


Let's talk image SEO

And everything drops out for a couple of months.


Let's talk image SEO

Oh, no.


Let's talk image SEO

It's no fun.


Let's talk image SEO

And the room for human error, too, to miss a broken link.


Let's talk image SEO

If you need to go swap out where are these images embedded and stuff, you could cause


Let's talk image SEO

more problems with just a mistake of forgetting to update various places where those images


Let's talk image SEO

were used.


Let's talk image SEO

I can imagine things going wrong.


Let's talk image SEO

So you mentioned the blogger migration.


Let's talk image SEO

You did that for the site.


Let's talk image SEO

But I don't recall you updating the file names.


Let's talk image SEO

Do you remember if you updated them or you just ported them over?


Let's talk image SEO

Were you also?


Let's talk image SEO

I didn't think that we did that.


Let's talk image SEO

I think we just ported them over.


Let's talk image SEO

Too much effort.


Let's talk image SEO

Yeah.


Let's talk image SEO

Previously, it was also the images were hosted in various places.


Let's talk image SEO

So sometimes on people's personal accounts, and then it was a total mess.


Let's talk image SEO

So porting them over was more work about, well, where do we actually find these images?


Let's talk image SEO

And less about, oh, we need to optimize the image file name.


Let's talk image SEO

Just finding them and then porting them over to the new place and then making sure we didn't


Let's talk image SEO

break the blog post that is referencing that thing was already enough of a hurdle.


Let's talk image SEO

But yeah, I do recall that.


Let's talk image SEO

Trying to track down, you're doing this historical sleuthing.


Let's talk image SEO

What did we even mean here?


Let's talk image SEO

And can we go back and look in the Wayback Machine?


Let's talk image SEO

What did this blog post look like back in the day?


Let's talk image SEO

Also when people were embedding presentations and then hosting them on their personal site,


Let's talk image SEO

how do we even go back and get?


Let's talk image SEO

And we were able to rescue some of this stuff, which is crazy.


Let's talk image SEO

But yeah, I think if you were to then start editing files, we would have given up.


Let's talk image SEO

We were already like, this is a lot to just go back and get the images, let alone rename


Let's talk image SEO

it.


Let's talk image SEO

Yeah.


Let's talk image SEO

I mean, there's also image sitemap files, which people sometimes use for that.


Let's talk image SEO

Personally, I don't think this would change much in our case.


Let's talk image SEO

It wouldn't help with the crawling aspect or speeding things up.


Let's talk image SEO

It just, hey, we did a change.


Let's talk image SEO

Still going to take a long time.


Let's talk image SEO

OK.


Let's talk image SEO

So another type of image that we have on our site is cartoons.


Let's talk image SEO

So we do have a couple of blog posts that are just, it's a series, it's a web comic


Let's talk image SEO

series that I haven't gone through to add alt text yet because I'm not sure what should


Let's talk image SEO

be in there.


Let's talk image SEO

And the series is also, it's a Korean webtoon, so we would need to then work with our Korean


Let's talk image SEO

team to figure out what would we even put in there for text.


Let's talk image SEO

But those pages, there's not much text around them, like the bulk of the post is the illustrations.


Let's talk image SEO

Like it's a series of image, each panel without much text.


Let's talk image SEO

But I can imagine if we were wanting to optimize those posts for image search, we would need


Let's talk image SEO

to put more text.


Let's talk image SEO

But like what text would we start to put there?


Let's talk image SEO

I mean, I would primarily look at accessibility there.


Let's talk image SEO

Yeah.


Let's talk image SEO

It might be that you look at these pages and you say, well, if someone can't look at these


Let's talk image SEO

images, there's really nothing we can tell them there.


Let's talk image SEO

Maybe we can put the script somewhere on the page as well to kind of make it possible for


Let's talk image SEO

someone to at least understand what the joke is or if there's a joke or some information


Let's talk image SEO

on there.