People nowadays are looking for adventure. They may not have time to go away for six months or five months or three months or whatever. It might take to be on a long Trek and prepare for that's a North Pole Expedition from the coast. But you know the idea of these marathons is they offer modern-day adventure to people you you get to stand at the North Pole. But you also earn your right there by running a marathon and doing something physical. I think a lot of people want to do something like that.Hello and welcome to another episode of no Finish Line podcast featuring athlete interviews and discussion and running training traveling and adventure and I'm your host John Regan. My guest today is Richard Donovan of global running Adventures. Richard will be discussing the background of extreme events. He organizes such as the North Pole marathon and Arctic Ice marathon and World Marathon challenge given his diversity Richard his word. He of an entirely separate podcast which are mightier another stage to discuss some of his thoughts on the philosophy of ultrarunning the direction the sport and his previous roles as a director of the International Association of ultra Runners and head of ultra running, Ireland. He is also working those Delia you Trail World Championships at all running obtaining the force Global TV audience in the process. That was the trail World Championships held in Connemara in Galway back in 2011. And he was also race director for the First Commonwealth championships at both 100K and Ultra Trail, which was held in Wales. He additionally helped to launch. The force wings for life world run and was race director of the inaugural orange event, which is held in Killarney County Kerry and his That's not enough. Richard has also run across three continents on one several events such as the Himalayan 100-mile stage race and Inca Trail Marathon Richard has also shown himself to be a strong advocate for access to sport for people with disabilities and he's a big supporter of orange athletes attempting to qualify for the Olympics. His brother. Paul was a two-time Olympian and multiple NCAA track champion and indoor World medalist at 3,000 meters. Richard delighted to have you here and welcome to the podcast. Thank you. John the original. Can you explain to listeners? What is an extreme running event? Well in extreme running event, there's no set definition of us. But in my case, I organize marathons in extreme locations, I guess so Geographic extremes like the North Pole. I organized the North Pole Marathon. I organized the World Marathon challenge, which is seven marathons and 7K. Since and seven days, I organized the Antarctic Ice Marathon, which is the southernmost marathon in the world in Antarctica, and I organized a volcano Marathon which is the highest desert marathon and the world in the Atacama Desert. So many respects their Geographic extremes of sorts and there also, you know, you're testing Logistics to the extreme rear. Let's talk a little bit about the North Pole Martin because that must be one of the hardest to actually organize Yeah, the North Pole marathon is certainly not a conventional Road Marathon. It takes place on an ocean because the North Pole is situated on the Arctic Ocean at 90 degrees north. So you might wonder how do you run a marathon on an ocean? And it's probably the only certified marathon in the world that's run on water such as because of course, there's Frozen ice on the ocean. There's probably 3 feet to 9 feet of ice on the Arctic Ocean at the North Pole. So the logistics behind And getting people to get up there and actually run a 26.2 mile marathon are very very unique. So at the North Pole there's approximately six months of darkness followed by six months of daylight. So around the time of the Spring Equinox in March the Sun comes out at the North Pole and there's constant daylight 24 hours a day for almost six months. That's the time just after the Spring Equinox to organize a marathon at the North Pole. With all of this daylight plus it's just after the winter and the ice is robust enough for a plane to land on it. So a North Pole Marathon will always occur in early April that is the limited window a few weeks just after the Spring Equinox where it's safe enough for a plane to land at the North Pole and safe enough for people to run up there. And in my case, I work with a Russian logistics company who send up a helicopter from Siberia to Kate this piece of ice to build a camp and it's at this camp where the marathon is run. So essentially a helicopter takes off from Siberia, but enough fuel for one way. It finds the way it finds a piece of ice is that they look for a piece that's mature enough. They can tell by the color of the ice that this ice has been around for a year or two and therefore it should withstand the plane landing on it and it should last for the short polar. Season so once this ice is located at the North Pole and an illusion jet takes off an air drops a tractor and airdrops a tractor driver and some personnel and this tractor is used to carve out a runway on that ice on the ocean can just tell video per second when you say a tear drops attracted with that mean the tractor lands by Parachute. That's exactly what it means the illusion. It's a big cargo plan a Russian cargo plane andalucian 76 It literally flies over the pole in the region where the helicopter is landed it then airdrops this tractor to the back of it out of the plane and parachutes deploy lands on the ice and shortly after that. The tractor driver is thrown out as well with the parachute and his job, of course is to carve out this Runway flatten the ice and make it good enough for a plane to land on. So once this Camp is set up this happens over the course of just a few days. It's a remarkable human achievement by the Russians in fact and logistical achievement. There's nothing at the pole before this and suddenly there's a tractor there are carving a Runway. There's some tents being erected and some people there and that is the location for the North Pole Marathon. What happens from a competitor point of view is I meet competitors in svalbard which is an archipelago off the coast of Norway and they don't have to parachute in there. They fly. Why up there on an Antonov jet. It's about a two and a half hour flight. We land on the ice that has been carved out by this tractor. I set up a course at the North Pole. It's normally a looped course of possibly 5K that people do a times or maybe it's 4K the people do 10 times, but I set up a course there we run the race at this camp and then we get out of there within 48 hours. It's very military-style operation. The reason again the difference between it and a conventional Road marathon is we don't have to worry about traffic management plans air traffic management plan might be too worried about our polar bears in the facility for example, so that's why we keep we keep a looped course multiple Loop course rather and of course, it's extremely cold and I think three of the last five or six years have been about -40 Celcius, which is the same. As minus 40 Fahrenheit, so that's pretty chilly. So people have to dress appropriately for that kind of weather and we keep the course of the same multiple Loop course so that you know aside from the danger of polar bears. It's important to give to monitor people in this race because of the possible impacts of hypothermia frostbite and other unique things to a cold weather environment. And of course, there can be breaks in the ice. Ice because we are on an ocean. Sometimes there are what's called leads which are essentially when the I separates and you can see the ocean below and so we want to avoid those kind of obstacles when people are running because I prefer it's a running race and not a survival race. You mentioned you flew in from svalbard is any reason why use travel from svalbard when the crew travel from Russia? Yeah. I mean if you if you were to go to Russia, it probably faced a lot of bureaucratic and these obstacles whereas Svalbard is the northernmost possibly the northernmost settlement in the world with an airport and you can get regular commercial flights from Oslo to svalbard even though it's only a thousand kilometers from the North Pole. And where'd you say smelled buyers located again off the coast of Norway? Yes. Foul bird is an archipelago at the largest island is called spitsbergen and spitsbergen is a holiday destination in itself. In fact, so when people go to the North Pole to usually spend a few days in spitsbergen where the acclimatize and And where they sightsee and then it's a beautiful island to go to know typically when you get to the North Pole Camp. How long did you stay there? You know, there's nothing typical about the North Pole the thing about extreme events. Again that separate them from perhaps Road marathons is even though you may have a template every year and every year is unique anything can happen at the North Pole from a break in the ice that cracks the runway and therefore you can't go in on time. You know, they can be political problems between which happened this past year between Russia and Ukraine which influence planes flying up there anything can happen at the North Pole? And that is one of the things about extreme events. There's a lot of uncertainty and as a race organizer. I have to try and manage that uncertainty for everybody. You mentioned flowing out there on an Antonov plane to the plane of skis. How does it land now? The plan doesn't have skis a lands as per normal. With squeals but the guys who fly these plans. They're all usually X Russian military Pilots their top pilots and our East European guys and former Soviet guys rather and they're experts on this and these plans they can take off and land on very short runways that's their unique capability. And so the, you know playing can actually land on 300 meters or take Goff some of these plans even though we will try and build the runway much longer than that. I'm on the race finishes. How much time would you spend there before you travel back or are you waiting on a plane to come in or is there a plane waiting there for you? Well, typically a trip I you know, I bring about 60 people to the North Pole every year that's made up of the runners themselves and Camera Crews some support group and the Antonov jet typically takes about 30 people Seated on so what happens is I use the plan to go up. It's two and a half hour flight. With the first group of Runners, it returns to svalbard and then it picks up the second group and brings them up. I operate the race shortly after the second plane arrives and we're 24 hours of daylight that could be at midnight and the race can go on people are not going to be setting personal bests. So let's say could take 10 hours for some people to eventually finish and after that like an American people tend to drink and A that happens at the North Pole to but after the marathon itself, we actually get a helicopter an MI a chopper and I make sure that everybody stands at 90 degrees north for the record and 90 degrees north is the precise geographic North Pole. And because typically the race it could be 20 miles away or it could be 40 miles away because we're on an ocean so over it. Matter of a few days when the camp is built. It's always floating. So a sense the North Pole marathon is a nebulous concept. It's in the exact area of the North Pole, but it would be an absolute fluke for it to be at the North Pole when it occurs. So each Loop that a competitor doors, although it's the same loop around the camp. It's in a different location because you're moving. Yeah, and so let's say I was to operate a linear event if I was out of my mind and I decided This year I'm going to have every run buddy run 26 miles to the pole and reach the pole in the end because you're floating that 26 miles. You could actually reach the pole. You could be floating towards the pole and you wouldn't run 26 miles. Are you could be floating away from it and it would be a lot take a lot longer to get there. So that's the idea of a loop and but the amazing thing about the North Pole is if you look at people's GPS That afterwards you'll see each Loop is moving as the running during the race. So the running the set distance at sets 10 laps for Point 2 K per lap that lap is moving all the time while they're running. So you see you see that movement on the GPS and I reckon that's totally unique for a marathon Race your hair will totally dress for a race Leader's, you know, one of the ironies are running in cold weather is you can overheat and you don't dress in bulk. You wear layers of light clothing. That's how you deal with the cold. So what I would advise people to wear is a base layer on their legs and a base layer on the Torso and that base layer takes sweat away from the body easily and and then use a wind shell on your legs. But on your torso have a fleece layer and a wind shell and the idea of the fleece layer is it keeps you relatively warm and of course anyway, Shell which is like a tracksuit is basically designed to stop the wind penetrating. So that's the kind of stuff you wear in your body on your hands. I'd recommend mittens which are fingerless gloves. In other words there because you can get the air to circulate among your fingers when they're not separated. And of course people were a goggles face mask. All your peripherals are subject to frost damage. So it's very very important. To keep your ears your nose your toes your fingers. All of those things are they are the most likely to be impacted by frostbite. So, you know, you wear these things and you look like you're just wearing a tracksuit. You're not dressed up like a big Mitchell a man or anything. It's layers is the key and you know running a race like the North Pole it's as I say you can actually overheat and so these layers so that the wind I could should have ventilation Zips. In other words, you can pull down a zip and let some air into it starting a race like the North Pole. It's always advisable to start slightly cold. So those that you mentioned are like what you might see under the arm on your jacket. Exactly. Okay, so that's what they're for is ventilated. That is what therefore because this danger of overheating. It is an ironing. The problem is if you sweat too much. When you stop it freezes and that's the problem and what you want to try and do running naturally produces wet unless you're not making much effort, but you will be at the North Pole and and you want to just control ventilator as much as possible. Stay slightly cold, but manage your he's manager resources in that way and know, you know, another thing at the North Pole for example. Yeah, I tell people don't drink water quickly, you know, it'll spill on you and then it becomes rock-hard ice, you know, take your time take an extra couple of seconds to think about what you do, you know, so there's none of that as I say again, it's another difference with a road Marathon, you're not catching water and dumping it in you have to watch these things at the pool. And what about your feet? Would you wear trail shoes hiking boots? I just recommend Trail Runners. Would you use snowshoes? No, we You snore she's at the North Pole. I consider them an impediment to Performance Because unless you're used to them. They're going to affect your hips and cause a lot of pain. They have a different running motion. And also if you wear things like spikes and that the reality is we have tents at the North Pole the people have to go into and they will cut the covering of the tents on this, you know, so we can't have that happening at that. That's something you wouldn't just think about so obviously it has happened it has happened. Yeah, so it No, everything is trial and error over the years but when you mention not wearing snowshoes is not a case of each time. You take a step that your foot is sinking into the ground at the North Pole. Yes. Yeah the North Pole actually it's a course that we don't groom. So in other words, we're up there and you see the ice and that's what you're running on. You know, you see these what I call he looks advice it's where the ocean has been crashing against itself and it causes, you know little kind of mounds of ice. Slick a plowed field. Yeah, and you know, so that's what people run on I do incorporate the runway a little bit. So that's the flap obviously groom surface. But other than that people are sent out to meander around the surface of the ocean as it is and you know, if you're out there if you're a kilometer away from camp at the North Pole, that's an eternity. You know, you you really feel you're out there but by yourself because you can't even see the Camp when you're a kilometer away due to these hillocks of I serve you run in the opposite direction. So you get a real feeling of Adventure and being out there in this really remote part of the planet yet. Those are all amazing the when you're not rolling, how would your your address different when you're not learning? What kind of clothing would you were at the pole? Yeah, when you're not running it's important to have big arctic polar boots, you know. And when pants and the big jackets that you see typically in outdoor stores, so that's where that kind of clothing comes into play. So you're just keeping yourself well insulators, but activity clothing as I mentioned and the act of running you were different stuff and it's lighter and you know, it's not what people imagine initially you would be wearing because typically when I give people examples of gear to get their kind of questioning it because it's light. Right, but that's what you want you on light little bit of insulation and the ability to ventilate and layers which are sustainable. How does the North Pole Martin differ from the Antarctic Ice Marathon? Well, the Antarctica is mired in Baltimore obviously running cold conditions, but the entirety guys marathon is literally the polar opposite of the North Pole Marathon. Where's the North Pole Marathon takes place on an ocean the Antarctic Ice Martin takes place on land and takes place in Antarctica, which is a continent and does that make it easier to get to yeah, it makes the facilities easier to arrange. So let's say an Antarctic Camp will be more sophisticated. Decatur than a North Pole Camp because we have very limited time at the North Pole, you know, only a matter of a few weeks before the ice cracks and is unsafe or Landing. So everything is done very very quickly at the North Pole. Where is in the Antarctic you have what we call an Antarctic season which lasts for several months where you have daylight where you have, you know, the usually between November And the end of January we're all kinds of activities can happen in Antarctica. So that difference is enormous in terms of logistics planning safety and all these other elements. I'm flying to Antarctica. Is that an easier process while the flight to Antarctica we use a different plan. So for the Antarctic Ice Merit and I met people in a town called Punta Arenas, which is the southern tip of Chile. So people get there via Santiago get an internal flight and land in Punta Arenas from Punta Arenas. We actually use an illusion jet which is can bring 60 people. So there's not two flights like at the North All but it's a longer flight. So it takes about five hours or so to get down to a camp in Antarctica at a place called Union Glacier Union Glacier situated about 650 miles from the South Pole itself. So this Camp Union Glaser is set up not just for the marathon. Obviously there it is kind of like a hub in Antarctica for other activities. So there might be people who are going to a penguin Colony. There are people going to the South Pole itself. If people climb and Vinson, which is the highest mountain in Antarctica, and typically most people will come to you in English here and then get an internal flight on a smaller plane to wherever they need to go from me. We just fly to Union Glacier and we operate the marathon there. It was Hagar. There's no air traffic control in that Erica is so do you have a schedule soil that? You know, I'm leaving at 10 past 3:00 on Friday afternoon. Yeah, like the North Pole Antarctica everything in Antarctic is governed by weather. So safety is of the utmost importance. So for example, good running method whether may not be good flying weather and schedules are very much subject to weather on the day in comparison to the North Pole. How does the entire article is merging compared with temperature the terrain clothing is as anything. Anyway it did. Yeah, actually differs quite a bit the temperature it's not as cold and entire to get this location as it would be at the North Pole. So it may you know on occasion it can get down to about minus 25 Celsius with the wind chill. But typically I would expect it to be minus 10 to minus 15. So that's a quite a significant difference compared to what I would anticipate at the North Pole every year. Also. We are running on land. It is on a glacier so that Here is crevasse checked actually, so there's a lot of safety elements go into the Antarctic Ice marathon before it's operated, but we do groom a course and we have a bigger course. It's normally for Loops because we don't have to worry about polar bears down there and we don't have to worry about cracks exposing an ocean below. So we usually use a for Loop course, it can be a two Loop course sometimes and but the clothing itself the same principles apply. I it's cold and you should wear layers of clothing. In fact, I find layers of clothing as I recommend work better at the colder the weather and because it's not quite so cold and Antarctica. Sometimes people will remove the middle layer on their torso. And again the key is to just not sweat too much and to try and manage that ideally you want to be moving at a pace where boy you're keeping yourself warm, but not overheating exactly and If you have that tendency, if you feel you might start overheat you ventilate so, you know, that's interesting. That's Union Glacier as I say, it's it's a more sophisticated Camp because it can be because you have a season there were you're not worrying about an ocean and the ice on the ocean disintegrating. So you have a camp there for three months that caters for all these various activities and the marathon is one of them and there's quite a few activities down there. Where is The North Pole the North Pole marathon is probably the principal activity. It's responsible for at least one quarter of the people. If not more who go to the North Pole every airport. That's a lot would have been so cold at the North Pole and that article I take it that you can't really run with a bottle of water. It's kind of pointless to you. So yeah, you get that out your aid station. Yeah. So we, you know at the North Pole we have, you know, we wrecked a camp that's heated. And the tensor heated and normally people as they do each Loop, they need to go in to the tent to do you get water, you know for a period of time water won't freeze because if you leave a little Gap and then I can move up and down and Shake while you're running and if you put it on the inside of your jacket that's good, you know people carry gels sometimes again, if you keep them close to your skin. That's what's going to stop them freezing, you know, so but typically people don't really need to carry these things because Rare Aid stations. It may take, you know a minute to go into the tent and come out. But again, you're not worrying about getting that Boston Marathon qualifier in time or any kind of PB in these races unless it's your first marathon. Who would want to run a marathon at the North Pole? That's a good question. And in fact, I suppose when I set the race up in the first place. I answer that by saying well I wanted to so I'm sure there's a lot of people like me who like the idea of something being a little bit crazy and maybe they shouldn't do it and that's the very reason they should and I guess, you know people nowadays are looking for adventure. They may not have time to go away for six months or five months or three months or whatever. It might. Take to be on a long Trek and prepare for that's a North Pole Expedition from the coast. But you know the idea of these marathons is they offer modern-day adventure to people you you get to stand at the North Pole. But you also earn your right there by running a marathon and doing something physical. I think a lot of people want to do something like that. And in fact I get people who go to the North Pole and the inevitably get the bug as we Call it and want to go to entire ticket then or vice versa are do something else go to a jungle. There are races everywhere in the world nowadays and very often those locations those extreme locations and Merit in his reason to go there and of course we'll entire to get a lot of people now have a goal to run a marathon on all seven continents and the Antarctic Ice Merit and is one of only two races on and Terror to get that people can run. The other one being What's called the To get InterContinental Marathon, which is the first marathon at the World Marathon challenge, which I also organize so, you know going to the entire two guys smarter than is an opportunity to do something bigger. There's the marathon itself the adventure down there, but there's also this idea of seven continents which is a big goal for many people. Tell me a little bit about the Intercontinental Antarctic Marathon. Okay. Well actually that race is part of a bigger event called World Marathon challenge, which Which is another array Sy organized where bring people to run seven marathons on Seven Continents within seven days or in other words 168 hours. And is that race Hall to help in the same location know the route for the World Marathon challenge is different and the first marathon which is in Antarctica is in a different location than Union Glazier. So the idea of the World Marathon challenge came about from the very fact that just mentioned that people have a goal to run a marathon. All seven continents and yeah, we can take them many many years to do. So and I kind of came up with this concept will how about if I narrow this down to a short timeframe and much like the North Pole are Antarctica with your kind of counterintuitive locations to organize events in a sense. I thought this idea the bit crazy to bring people around to run seven marathons and seven continents and seven days would have a lot of people who might want to do it and so I came about with the The idea and the route for 2020. For example, we start in a place called neuville, which is a Russian base directly south of Cape Town four thousand two hundred kilometers south of Cape Town in Antarctica. That's where we have the first marathon. Then we go to Cape Town for the second Marathon Perth for Australia Dubai for Asia Madrid for Europe for delays in Brazil for South America and We finished in South Beach Miami. So with this event. I meet people in Cape Town. That's our departure point and I bring them into entire to get for that first marathon in that first marathon is called the entire to get InterContinental marathon. And as soon as we start that first marathon, we have exactly 168 hours. To get to the finish and finish the file marathon in Miami to get everything done within 7 days. How do you make that happen? How do you know that you're going to get around the world in that space it on. Well, you know I mentioned the North Pole is quite a logistical feat, you know working with the Russians up there to airdrop tractors care about a Runway, you know operation event on an ocean. This is probably even more difficult to organize the World Marathon challenge again, you have I suppose the uncertainty about even the starter because you're dealing with Hurt again, but essentially I Charter a plane nowadays and I meet people in Cape Town and suppose we go into Antarctica on this plane the plane weights on the runway while we operate a marathon and then we return to Cape Town all these events from Cape Town on word have local organizers. They're all certified Marathon courses. They've been measured by Ames measures and so they're all official events all officially measured and monitored in this situation though. I have the uncertainty of what maybe I won't start on the day and that has an impact on every other event. Obviously in other words. I have to get permits for possibly the second day all these uncertainties arise. But yeah, it's a it's a very big logistical feat luckily so far and I have actually Started on the day and there's been no need to push out a marathon by a day and and deal with all the changes associated with that. But we talked about the conditions at the North Pole and I dare to go and here you have another event starting and are in starting in their article. Put a hundred and sixty hours later. You're running a marathon in Miami. So the range of temperature must be going from C minus 30, maybe the plus turret is so that's a difference of 60°. Hell does the body cope with that? Yeah. I mean, that's a good question. And this is one of the other, you know, aside from the logistics of the race, which I handle for everybody. This is what the runners experience in this. So I already mentioned the clothing you were in Antarctica and the North Pole that's only one set of Clothing here. Then they have six other events. So within 24 hours we get back to Cape Town after the first marathon and we're suddenly running in immense heat potentially employs. You've met in Cape Town. So you're going from that heat to an extreme cold and impact that heat. Yes. Exactly. Let me come back to this. I have to arrange logistically a big turnaround of people. So they're at a start line and ready to go all their changes of clothes. Nothing and everything involved in that but when they actually run themselves, they're suddenly and shorts and a singlet and it's hot and they're fatigued because they've already just run a marathon. So the first two marathons of this world Martin Challenger quite close together and you're immediately going from temperature extremes and that takes a toll, you know, and it's kind of surreal for the runners actually to do that to be an entire taken suddenly in Cape Town and then suddenly they're on a They're going to Perth Perth again is a hot location. We operate that marathon in the evening. So it takes the sting out of the heat. But again, you're in a warm location same at Dubai Madrid. Suddenly, you're in the European winter and it might be only 0 degrees. But again, there's been a fluctuation from the previous race in Dubai and in a very short period of time and you're back into almost your polar clothing not quite but a different set of clothing then Fortaleza. Brazil will be hot and Miami, of course hot and this is all done within a hundred and sixty eight hours. It's almost like a cruel experiment for the runners were there in these changing temperatures. They're not having hotel stays along the way maybe only one because we don't have time that they have to sleep on the plane. So they have a you know, a certain amount of sleep deprivation there in changing time zones as I say changing temperatures and suddenly they're in Miami. Within a hundred sixty eight hours and I often ask people when we reach Miami at the start line and I say how long ago do you think was when you ran in Antarctica and it seems like a distant memory to them. That's how surreal the event is with all the travel the different continents and cultures. They encounter temperatures sleep deprivation. They actually lose all sense of time and it's very hard for them to process that you know, what only a hundred and fifty or sixty hours ago. I was running in the dirt again now here I am in Miami and and off as the case with other events to at the North Pole and Antarctica that it takes a while for people to process these events to go home afterwards and I kind of have to pinch themselves and say I was there and I did that and they're looking at the pictures and and it's amazing for them. It's totally life-changing. Yeah, you may just leave deprivation and that would also affect recovery and then there's the Distance that people end up running so over the seven days that's almost 300 kilometers which isn't too far off 200 miles which is quite a lot like nobody would do that in training, but then they end up doing that in a week with all that traveling. You said not sleeping in a hotel bed the not recovering as as normal. They're going to these kind of extremes of temperatures. So it's quite incredible when you think about it is yea and yes, it's an event. I think that's open to anybody to do much. Each like ultramarathons, you know people say, you know, who does these events and you know are the extreme athletes who are sponsored all the time or you know, whatever and there's quite a spectrum. It just goes to show how adaptable the human body is and if you cut away the drama that these things are doable. It's all down to how much you actually want to do and then there's the power of the mind if if you have a clearly defined goal you will do it. Absolutely. I mean a lot of people who go The North Pole and tired guard do the world Martin challenge, for example, sometimes they're doing it for other reasons besides, you know, they're raising money for a charity or they're doing it in memory of somebody who might you know a close relative some combination of those things and you know, when they get there they sure as hell want to finish and with my events as well. I don't I don't want to knock people out of them. You know, I want people to finish the goal of my events is I feel personally as a failure if somebody doesn't get across The line I want everybody to finish so I don't have strict cut-offs as long as people look okay to me, you know, I'm flexible with cutoff times. And the whole idea for me is get them to finish the event and you get all types of people who did them from you know, and at that defy preconceptions, you get people your course you get the odd, you know, Elite Runner, you know Olympic standard Runner who might take part in one of these events. But otherwise, they're like Road Martin's in the sense of who takes part a wide spectrum of people male/female different ages some people with disabilities of it. A lot of people with various disabilities who managed to finish these races and they're quite inspirational. Like I say, it's easier to be resilient when you have a clearly defined goal. Yeah, I mean, I don't think anybody decides to go to the world Marin Challenger the North Pole on a whim by the time it comes around. They'll have defined their goal very clearly and what they want out of that trip in terms of certainly in terms of running our finishing. Yeah. I think if somebody is going to go to that extreme like they've invested a lot of time money and whatever else into it and yeah, they know yeah, I think of somebody is going to make that much of an investment. Events date they want to complete. Yeah, and you know even just in terms of financially these events are not cheap. They're inherently expensive because you know to operate any event in a polar region is just a costly exercise and you know these marathons or even the world Martin challenge, they're probably the least expensive ways of getting to the North Pole and Antarctica are around the world and yet there are all these marathons you can run on top of it all but just as you mentioned the expense I was reading there recently about the supply chain to get 100 leader barrel of aviation fuel to the South Pole that parallel would probably cost approximately a hundred thirty-five dollars saved America, but it only gets to the South Pole. You can cost over $1,000 because of the amount of fuel that actually needed to get at their everything in the whole reason is an expense. Yeah, everything in the polar regions is expensive because there's not just the expertise required but there's also you know fuel governs Most activities anywhere in the world if you need fuel at the so Paul you can ship it in there and you can just drive around there. You actually have to fly it in there. So you have aircraft taking off with fuel to carry to the pole and they're burning fuel to bring it there. And that's just the reality, you know, okay, there's not huge activities in these areas, but to have any activity that's essentially what's behind it. How did you come up with the idea for the warmer and challenge? What made you think? It was logistically possible to fly a group of Runners around the world complete a marathon each of the content within the seven days like any of the events I've mentioned so far. I always do them myself first basically at to test the waters such and I'd seen many years ago, of course about ranulph Fiennes is attempt to run seven marathons and seven continents in seven days and and that kind of you know, I know in the end it didn't quite work out for him and he had to use I think the falconer and we had the Falkland Islands is a proxy for Antarctica, but I like the idea and the immuno the ambition he had in doing it and that kind of inspired me in a way to say We'll look can I do something like this in less than seven days. Maybe he's a possible and use economy of lights around the world and see if I could do it. So quite literally one night. I looked at Skyscanner and I actually had to go in to interact with somebody on a private trip and I thought And it was to this novel base out of Cape Town. I thought okay. Well, I'm there what happens if I run a marathon? Can I leave there and get around the world take a chance in a certain time period spending maybe eight ten hours in each location run a marathon and maybe get it done and under six days. And and that's what I said about doing. So the first time I did it was 2009. I think I got around in 5 days 10 hours so I ran this Marathon. In neuville, and then I went to Cape Town got on a commercial flight to Dubai after you run the marathon after I ran a marathon in Cape Town then to do by then to London Toronto Santiago and finished in Sydney and I had all the Marathon course has measured I travel by myself and I went economy all the way got around the world in 5 days 10 hours completing the seven marathons on Seven Continents. So that was my first test. Of it. So in other words I kind of was in Antarctica. Anyway, I just took the long way home to see if it would work and it did and I then did it a second time in 2012 and I did it in four days 22 hours three minutes albeit on a different route and from that spawned the idea of well, okay, this can be done and I'm just using commercial airlines here and maybe I can do this as an event and bring people. Due in seven days because obviously seven seven seven as a nice ring to it. So seven Martin seven continents seven days and whatever bomi do to myself in less time. That's just my own risk when I'm Juniper other people. I want to make sure I get things done. Right and seven days is the best time frame and I then launched the first commercial one in 2015 and I still use commercial airlines for that and brought a limited number of people and worked do the same again in 2016. And then I Realized is the demand here now and I turned it into a bigger event and started to Charter a plane to get people around you in your spare time. You run across continents. So you've run across North America twice. Is that right? Yeah. I run across continents. I ran across the u.s. And 2015 Iran from San Francisco to New York about 3,200 miles the route I took and I then ran across Europe to your after from Istanbul. To the course of the Netherlands near Rotterdam and I ran across South America albeit a shorter route from the coast in Argentina to the coast in Chile and over the Andes mountains and you're planning to rule nor to marry again. Yeah, I did those events originally did those events. I did the u.s. Event in 2015 with the goal of running across Antarctica actually later that year because nobody had ever run across entire to get before and I thought it would be great place to cross the continent as it happened for various reasons. Ins logistically the entire to Crossing didn't happen that year I found myself in need of getting fit again the following year and I just defaulted. You know, I may as well run across Europe and and then I decided Well, I run across South America and unfortunately, the entire event hasn't occurred yet, which was what all these Trends constants runs were for because I kind of got a catastrophic knee injury that's taking me out for over two years. So these Continental room A Sleek training runs to help you cannot plan like your logistics for going to Antarctica. Yeah. It's I mean people might laugh at the idea that you ran across America as a training run, but the reality was well, that's kind of what it was. I you know, I spent all these years organizing events and I found I wasn't running myself and I was getting on fit and I didn't really have the motivation to do the traditional events, and I thought you know Well, why would I love to do and you know, I knew I wanted to run across entire to go I said but you know, I really need to get into shape for that. And the best way to do that for me is to go across the continent like North America and you know, the u.s. Is an epic Place geographically the people everything it's fast and it's amazing and I thought you know, I run across the u.s. And that will get me into shape and that's how I know. I didn't really train for that and I remember having colossal weight loss in the first few weeks like Susan two and a half Stone and three weeks because I went from running, you know, six or seven miles a day to suddenly run and 40, you know, and yeah, so you got me first and it was it was a great thing for me to do was to see America unfold in front of you seeing it on foot is way different than seeing it any other way and you don't miss things unfortunate see why the state boundaries are where they are you see How people change from one stage to another and one of the most amazing things from me about America was how rural it is. We have this idea, especially growing up in Ireland. You see the cop movies or series and you think all the action is in the city. And in fact, I lived in America for a number of years. I lived in cities. I lived in Boston. I lived in Phoenix and yet I didn't even know that this whole area outside of the Cities existed. Just how rural Is and how amazingly rural it is how the people are amazing. They're in these rural areas and how people in the city don't know this either much like I didn't know about what's outside these cities. I think that's actually the case and like things like I didn't realize cornfields went all the way from Kansas to almost New York City. I was still seeing corn fields in New Jersey and that to me was Something I didn't realize before I ran across the state. So you were glad you made that decision. Yeah, I mean the, you know, I say my own events like the North Pole in Antarctica and are roughly life-changing events for people people often describe their life as kind of pre North Pole and pulls North Pole. It's a very big thing in their lives run across America was a big thing for me because you change, you know, the whole essence of ultra running a course as you learn about yourself. If it's mental Endeavors as much as a physical one, and you know, well I Learned was when I started this run I was kind of fighting at first, you know, I had to get up the next day and run again probably because I was unfit when I started but then I learned myself to kind of give in to that to stop trying to control the sand to decide it was my loss and I've often compared it to possibly want to prison sentences like where you're resisting it and then you say okay. This is my lot for the next few months ago. An armored and then once you let that go you then experience the days and you take them as they are and you know, I appreciate it every day in America that I had you know, so I'm guessing that you didn't pick the shortest route. You picked a route that you would find most interesting and you got to visit places that you wanted to see. Yeah, one of my competitors and previous race or name is Heather car and she came up with the root for me. I remember she had run the entire two guys marathon and I just said as I do I'm thinking of running across America You know, I always keep in touch with people after my races and she remember her asking. Well, what's your what's your route, you know or whatever and I said probably San Francisco to New York and I had nothing in the middle. So just follow the signs and I remember her saying, you know, well, would you like me to come up with one eye so, you know and I said, well, I want to see certain types of places and then that's however Rose, so she just came up with this route that brought me, you know wasn't a linear route shortest one across but brought me to lovely places in, Utah. At that, I would never have gone to otherwise and and did you backtrack it only stays to visit somewhere. No never I mean the the whole way the North American run was operated was it was very simple, you know, I've heard of people who overanalyze stuff before they do it in my case. All I knew was I had to I would probably run about 3540 whatever miles per day. I had no idea and I would need somebody to pick me up at the end of the A and maybe bring us somewhere to stay. I didn't have a camper van or that and so I literally would have one person at my GPS recording me running. I'd have a person at me a couple of times during the day two or three times where I get a drink off them or whatever if there was no stores along the way at the end of the day we go and try and find accommodation and then come back to where I'd finish the previous day and just keep going and eventually you get there, but I've had no reason to go back since other than Then when I go back to where I finished each day that was about it. Now. When you go back to do in North America again, are you gonna follow a completely different route? Will you go the same direction? No, I've yeah, so I decided I've been injured for two years. I had just when I was ready to go across Antarctica in 2017. I was a few weeks out and I've been probably made the mistake of training and I got injured and I my knee just went from a four wonderful. Way putting the height. I always had some pain in my patellar tendons, but then this the medial side of my left knee just kind of gave way and I decided to look under the Bonnet for the first time and I got an MRI and both knees and the results of that MRI. I remember in September 2017 was not good. I had torn patellar tendons one was going to snap off to torn medial meniscus one on each knee bone bruising bomb blunting and I suppose like any Ultra Runner you have a high pain tolerance. Are you tend to ignore pain and whatever happened to me just tipped over and then I saw what was underneath and it was there was so much stuff wrong. I didn't know what to do initially and then I decided maybe stem cells was the way to go because they could be injected in all over the place and they might fix stuff. So my first Port of Call was to get them stem cells taken from my mouth. There were grown in a lab. They were harvested and then because there's a correlation between the amount you get and and their capability of fixing stuff. So I had all that done by the end of 2017 a very quickly and the stem cells fix my patellar tendons entirely. I've never had a pain there since but did not work well with meniscus and those kind of injuries. So the long and short of it is I've had two operations since and now I'm back around again. So so my next run will be to revert back to North America and do a run across there an entirely different route. I can you just roll it straight lines are already. Okay total course I can I can jog slowly I think so. Well, no the next my next run across North America and I tend to start after the Boston Marathon the day after I'm going to run van basten. Obviously again, take a non straight route across the u.s. To finish at Santa Monica Pier. So at the moment I intend to go from Boston towards Chicago up to Minneapolis across the Badlands see Mount Rushmore head down towards Monument Valley run through Compton and finish at Santa Monica Pier. So it's to see a different part of America and some of the Irish American parents of a to like Chicago Boston near the fact that you're going back to North America for the second time and your other events that you organized have all come about because you have ran these events previously. Are you planning on setting up something in North America? Ha ha ha. I don't know about that. There is a cycle race to race across there is there is a risk cross Omega. I actually have had an idea but I can't discuss about a North American Crossing as a race, but it's it would be entirely. Really not what people would think it would be more fun North American Crossing but ya know other than that though in all seriousness North America is really about me getting back into it again. I suppose like many people. I have a healthy dislike for training. I don't it's not easy for me to go out and do long runs and stuff like that. You'd have Porpoise to watch it. I have to have a purpose and I think starting on one side of a country and say I need to get to the other side is is the purpose and it makes it a lot easier and being in the lovely place like the state some experience in that shiz is a bonus and it's also an opportunity to raise money for a good cause maybe because it does kind of capture people's imagination and I found that before where people see you run across the can follow you for a few months. I tried to keep everything light and fun, but then we'll always be a serious side where I tried to raise money for something now with these two American Crossing held at active, logistically. No, no, it is a very very different place. But with regards, you know getting people to meet you and finding accommodation helped Ricky was that it was it was tricky enough, I guess because it was a part where we have to go over the end is and you know accommodation that wasn't so much the big element going across South America. It was going over the end is it was the traffic? So I was on a very busy route at one point. There's they don't really have you know margins at the side of the road for runners, you know in some countries and I had the same problem in parts of Europe where you were literally taking your life in your hands. Sometimes you would be running along the road of course facing traffic, but the problem would be cars overtaking from behind you and just whizzing by you and you know frightened the life out of you. Sometimes you knew few times you were within the centimeter tubing whacked off the road. They're kind of more the the problems with transcontinental runs. That doesn't exist in America. That's why it's another good place to go back to Did you have any accidents on any of the Intercontinental runs? No, I didn't have any I was lucky enough. I remember in Bulgaria and Serbia, you'd see all the little grave stones or Mana memorials by the side of the road where people have been killed and you're just, you know, your cars are coming up behind you and you know, you could be next and there was a periods like that, but I never really had an ax I never had. Really any bad encounters either, you know, I remember people saying, you know, your you run across the state somebody's going to shoot you or other people of these preconceptions about countries, you know, I may have had two incidents in America Two incidents of being confronted in some way over several thousand miles. That's nothing that could happen and going into town on a night out any problems word wild animals. I suppose my I have a little fear of cows. We won't call them. Wild animals were run across America whenever I'd see the open range cattle that would kind of worried me more than seeing a bear or a lion or something like that. I'd be going on. No, it's actually there's a lot of roadkill I encountered which was strange. You know, I disposed unexpected you'd see I became good eventually a knowing how long a carcass was there. Probably before I ever see it and you got to see some interesting animals and say all kinds of animals, dear everything, you know, that would have Been unfortunate enough to have been hit by a car on the road. We're going to take a step back. No joke because I'm going try to figure out before you started running and organizing these events. What were you doing previous that what did you give up to become an extreme event organizer? Yeah. It's as well as I was actually an economist and that's my profession. That's what I trained to do. I you know when I went to college here and go away. I did a degree in economics and classical Ization, I think it was the first person to do that particular combination because I had an interest in Classics and and economics as different as they are and after that I ended up getting a fellowship to do a master's here and go away. And you know, I was I was pretty good at economics. I gotta think a first-class Master's thesis or something and and as a result of that I got a scholarship to America to do PhD and Arizona State Ersity, so I went to America as well for a period so I ended up working as an economist. I was I was teaching at various third level institutions during my time and then I became a consultant economists and I was a specialist in I suppose antitrust economics which is, you know, II ended up protecting Industries who'd be investigated for price fixing our you know, our if there was deregulation on the card, so I was kind of involved in that area for quite a while. But I always had an interest in running because my brother was a good runner. He ran in a couple of Olympics and he was a sub for milder and he was a good runner. And so I always had that interest there and then I realized you know, I was in this profession economics and just because you're good at something doesn't mean it's good for you and I felt I was in this profession that didn't really mean anything to me. I was losing its meaning I suppose it was an unconventional Economist, but I always had this idea of kind of Adventure anyway, and like I mentioned a lot of people don't have time to go and big Expeditions and all this and they regret things later in life. I was realizing that are earlier in life. I suppose I'm saying I want to do something different, you know, and that got me into this field eventually. Is there a particular event or rake that was the turning point that actually help you to make that decision? Yeah, it was actually the death of my parents. My father died in 1998 on my mother died in 2000. Both of them are actually buried on the same day because my father gave his body to science so they were buried on the same day in 2000 by complete coincidence, which I obviously had a profound effect on me causes you to be a little bit introspective. Of course at the same time and I began to question my own life. You know, what is it that brings meaning to my life as such and it wasn't economics and I They wanted to do something to my parents memory and that kind I found myself gravitating towards towards running. You know, what I did is a kid and what I was watching my brother Paul do and I decided myself that I would get back into running. I would dedicate a number of races to their memory and raise money for some good causes and that's where I came up with my own idea of running on seven continents and at that time American to the South Pole the first and only man Return to the soap always been advertised. So that was going to be my entire attic event. And then I was going to run other races which I did in 2002 around the world select the Himalayan hundred mile race the Inca Trail Marathon Etc. So that was kind of the Catalyst the death of my parents and this decision about meaning I suppose and you know doing stuff that mattered to me came about and and put me on this trajectory away from economics back into the Running world are into the kind of Adventure World and where I felt I kind of had a calling so run in the South Pole marathon in 2002, which I went down with, you know, I restarted training. I went from being very very uncertain 2001 to you know, run and subtree are marathons and in my training sessions basically and that happened very very quickly went down to the South Pole which was quite an experience one American down there and and that set the ball rolling the race the so Paul was quite controversial. I beat a guy from the u.s. Called Dean karnazes. He was about half an hour behind me, but the race itself was sponsored by The North Face. He was a North Face athlete after the event they decided to invent categories where they deemed me to be the winner of a snowshoe division because I was wearing snow shoes So eventually Court ruled that I was of course the winner that that was all nonsense. But it was quite an experience for my first race. And that's how Paul Marathon actually sent me to the North Pole because I heard a rumor after I'd won the South Pole a marathon that perhaps Kern Asus was going to the North Pole to run a marathon up there whether that rumors true or not. It caused me to figure a way up there to get in touch with Russia, even though I had no background in this and I made it to the North Pole with the Russians. I went up and tested the runway with them on the plane the first plane that landed there and I built the camp with them. And I ran a marathon up there by myself just with a GPS and from that idea. I said, wow, you know, this is what I've been missing out on in my life as such this kind of Adventure that I haven't been on for a few years as an economist and and there must be other people out there who'd love to do this. And that's where I came up with the idea of the North Pole Marathon very much started at the South Pole. And you were right who would want to run there and a lot of people want to ruin their? Yeah. I mean when I was at the North Pole the first time no idea what I was doing. I was kind of you know, you get the odd moment where you're saying, this is crazy, but you love it, you know, and I loved it and I knew people would want to do something like this. It wasn't long after that that I said people are going to want to run a marathon at the North Pole and and it was within a couple of years. Years of that I switch from being an economist to organize in the North Pole Marathon. How did you find out about the race to the South Pole? You know, that's so long ago. It would have been it must have been on the Internet or something back in 2001 and I believe it it wasn't what it is. They'll know so I really can't remember I'd have to go back and look through files probably that I have but certainly a popped up on the radar there as a soap or marathon. And yeah, so I said I Have to run this and that was I think the only Maradona was held at this it was it was a it turned out to be unnecessarily an extremely controversial race because it was race were only six people went down to it and it was a race advertised as a linear route to the South Pole like skiing the last degree. Yeah, I accept it not half a degree I guess and so we went down there the race was advertised for it was a 10-day schedule. I remember leaving Ireland on January 1st. I didn't get back till the end of January. We were stuck in Antarctica for at least 18 days. First of all the camp called Patriots Hills, which is close to the current Union Glazier camp and then up on the Polar Plateau worry attempted the race. There was all kinds of delays safety issues involved in this race, but why we were in Antarctica, I hyper-extended my knee and it was very badly inflamed. I was told I had zero chance of In a marathon and that's when I elected to wear these snowshoes which were actually Dean karnazes snowshoes because he wasn't wearing them in the race and little did I know we're in these things would be a reason to explore an opportunity to put me into a different division when I actually won the rest, so it was a bizarre. So sorry sir, but the bottom line was I won this race by about half an hour. I was announced as the winner went all around the world. I was the winner of this race. And then they try to change the results afterwards and say that well, actually the guy who finished second is the winner because he wasn't wearing his nose shoes you were wearing them. So this is very very funny as if these snowshoes whisked me over the ice like a magic carpet. In fact for me, they were a big problem because they I think I mentioned earlier we don't wear them at the North Pole because they hurt your hips and all kinds of issues, but it was that race and the controversy around it which even Sports Illustrated follow. Who is it was most bizarre for me as my first race is an adult as such to be involved in any way in such a story and until almost have to win the race twice. I mean, I felt like I had buried my father twice when he had died and given his body to science and then we buried him two years later. I was running this in his memory and I felt like I had to win the race twice, but I fought that battle and and one out of course and and the bonus from it was when I heard this rumor that this other guy was going to the North Pole I decided you know, what in typical polar fashion, I guess in history. There's always some kind of competition and this would be way down the line. Of course. This is much more Petty just to marathoners, but I said, I'm going to get up to the North Pole somehow and I did and that event has probably kick-started everything that we talked about that has that challenge. I will call her. Yeah has kick-started all this running career. And with being the winner of the soap American you became the first person to run a marathon to the South Pole and then subsequently. Yeah. So later that are posed. Yeah. So the South Pole Marathon occurred I think around January 22nd 2002 and by April 5th 2002. I run the first marathon at the North Pole to which is not on the continent and not in my agenda for that year, but I figured a way to get up there and do it and and I can say from that the North Pole Marathon came about out and a complete change in my life you already curiosity when you contacted the Russians to say you wanted to fly to the North Pole to run a marathon. What kind of response did you get? Well, it wasn't quite just contact on the Russians. I had American friends who were helping me with this as well and they were really that in first contact with the Russians for me. My first direct contact was when I met them in svalbard and then went to the North Pole and built a camp with them and And we very quickly became friends and have remained friends over all these years and that's how I get logistic still at the North Pole. The the Russian guys I deal with their you know, work close buddies and we make things happen everything that has happened to this point has been as a result of that decision that you made to run a race after your parents died in their memory. Could you offer any advice to somebody who is trying to decide on whether to do Do and race some other event climb a mountain change jobs. There's a certain amount of risk involved. Would you maybe say ensure you have a bit of a safety net or just go for it. My advice is go first, you know Follow Your Instinct and do things that have meaning for you I decided to do this race to the South Pole and some other ones and that completely changed my life afterwards. I didn't grow up thinking I was going to be organizing polar events stuff like that. Don't be afraid to do something different. Follow what your instinct says is good for you not necessarily safe for you and you never know. What's around the corner when you do that Richard. Thanks very much. Your toys we might do a follow-up at some stages. I'm sure there's a lot of stuff. We haven't touched on and good luck with your run across North America. Thanks very much, John.
My guest today is Richard Donovan, who will discuss the background of extreme events he organises such as the North Pole Marathon, Antarctic Ice Marathon and World Marathon Challenge. However, given his diversity, Richard is worthy of an entirely separate podcast to share some of his thoughts on the philosophy of ultrarunning, the direction of the sport and his previous roles as a Director of the International Association of Ultrarunners and Head of UltraRunning Ireland. He has organised the IAU Trail World Championships at ultrarunning, obtaining the first global TV audience in the process, and was also a Race Director of the first Commonwealth Championships at both 100km and trail ultra running. He additionally helped to launch the first Wings for Life World Run and was Race Director of the inaugural Irish event. As if that’s not enough, Richard has run across three continents and won several events such as the Himalayan 100 mile Stage Race and Inca Trail Marathon. Richard has shown himself to be a strong advocate for access to sport for people with disability and a big supporter of Irish athletes attempting to qualify for the Olympics, among others. His brother Paul was a two-time Olympian, multiple NCAA track champion and indoor world medalist at 3000m. 