My buddy, Mike says to me goes why don't you just lose? I looked at him I said what do you mean? What are you why don't I just lose because I figured out if I had two options resign under protest or do nothing not go to the hearing and get fire, you know and keep in mind, you know, I got little kids at the time. Absolutely. You know, I got huge mortgage pay and I got I there's no way I can quit so you threw the game so I decided to throw it and he goes just lose and I looked at him I said, you know, I when I charge somebody with a crime or when I do something in a courtroom, and I'm here to win. Yeah, not today that because it because I believe that what I'm doing is Justice I charge a guy with a homicide because I believe he's guilty and I threw his hearing because I believe these guys were not just not guilty. They were factually innocent and we're not involved in that homicide. What's up? We're back part 2 with former Manhattan da district attorney Dan, Bib and my co-host Bill Cannon up here in Ossining New York, and we had a nice. A nice chat the first half I thought Dan can talk man. He's got that these got all these da War Stories We thought cops were the only ones that old war stories but he's got it. He's got a he's got a man as as we used to say I can hit the narrative long ball. It's great. It's a good one and like that so you can steal it if you want. I'm going to write it down. We couple seconds here bill. You would tell you was you started telling us homicide story on the Break, and I said, you know what said before it's a funny story. Yeah. It's like one of those stories that you can't believe that it actually happened a guy goes into the to five precinct to turn himself in from murder that he committed 15 years earlier and he starts telling the woman behind the desk all the all the details of the murder and she says you're in the wrong Precinct. That's that happened in the two three because the two threes on a hundred Second Street between 30 and Lexington so the guy walks To the 2/3 tells them they go. Yeah. Yeah, they send them upstairs to the squad. Billy done is there and sure enough. He didn't murder 15 years ago. He knew all the facts. He's now doing 25 to life. Oh my God has it's hard to believe this. No. No, I died believe everyone Civil Service everybody Rises to their own level and Compass. So you're even the da Squad we talked about this earlier living on the upper west side. Plane in the The Da basketball league having a couple of beers every day after work and in homicide cases man trying homicide cases. When did you make this is what movies are made about it. But when did you make Chief how long it take you to make Chief? I never made, you know, I mean you excuse me senor trial counsel. How long the well it took me a while how many people say I had a couple of checkered episodes in my past that the office wasn't too fond of Well, this is where the show is built around your show is built around this right. Now. Those those little stories that keep holding you back slightly, but the you're the most confident guy there at some point. Well, I took a collar so you did no way for the Scotland get the fuck up got some and sweated protesting something. No, I was on the PATH train actually going home after work. I had the windows open going home after a party for somebody. Who's leaving? And A cop in Port Authority cop took offense to some words I had with the conductor. decided I was being disorderly and drag me off the train cuff Me Up drag me inside as as he's walking upstairs is where on the escalator and I said, you know, he's got me cuffed up pretty tight. He's jerking the handcuffs around us. If you know that kind of hurts man, you know, can you not do that? I said besides I'm in law enforcement guy goes. Oh shit. I said my shields in my back shield and idea in my back pocket. I had a pair of jeans on and he pulls it out and he looks and he goes. So we go into the police room by the past station and I was actually going out to my parents house to pick up my car to go down to Jersey Shore the next morning. And you know I'm there for and they had to call a captain from Jersey City where their command is and the captain comes in and says are you calm now looked at him said Captain. I've never been anything but calm said, you know the police officer evidently objected to words that I had with the conductor. And I was even calm during those words with the conductor. And he goes well, we're going to write you a summons for what what did he do? And so they the cop Verse name Frank's Merchants Mercy which God price me a summons for discontent and of course, you know on the back you're supposed to put some factual allegations. So that what you actually did when he's made you disorderly He conveniently left that blank because I hadn't really done anything disorderly. Of course. I had to go that was Friday night and I end up getting out to my parents house abouts instead of getting out of my parents house about midnight or 1:00 o'clock in the morning. I got there around seven and my mother is panicked because I told her I'm coming to pick up my car and going down the shore and Saturday morning and mothers Panic. They haven't called her. I just looked at her and I said I'm getting in my car. I'm going down the shore. I didn't even tell them that I had just taken a collar. But Monday morning, you know, I'm in the office today the clock waiting for my boss and you know mint goes well with the chain of command and I got to go sit down with the second command and the DA's office got to explain to them everything that happened. I had to get a lawyer holy shit, but when we went to court, I was actually a niqab on the second floor on the summons part was in 100 Centre Street, you know now it's Over on bought 346 Broadway this always borrowing make you wear one of those zebra outfits when you get there aren't just in this last part is the New Black Nancy Brown fit. So I had to I had to go to court with my lawyer who I'm still friends with and you know, they'll be attorney moves for an ACD and the judges look something looks at the back of the ticket goes instinct is insufficient is dismissed. Goodbye. Whoa, so I walked out of The Cooperage Summers Park courtroom back. He came and started writing cases up again. So that was a little bit of a black mark, but it really was nothing though. But I guess they tell you office everything everything that we eat paint the picture for me and I always see the scenes that's a cool scene feel for your show. So II The with every big murder case I try and I expect that. There's going to be a phone call from Bob morgenthau saying Dan, you know come up to the office and you know, we want to end it was a title really wasn't it wasn't money with it wasn't a promotion but it was you know, and office of 500 attorneys. There are maybe 2025 senior trial counsel. How many do you have under you? I'm sorry, don't you have you have some limits on the you? I know I was never anybody's boss. Thank God, but you get a assistant though, you get well, you always have paralegal that works for you and you know, these usually when we started the cold-case unit 96 it was met Steve Sirocco and a paralegal. We had the occasional were use of of an investigator. But mostly it was just the detectives that we work with but God forbid they never made me a boss of anything because they know I Could barely be bought for myself. So, you know, it was probably. It was either after the bank robbery trial or the first Cold Case. I know I think it was after the bank robbery trial. I got the phone call that you know to boss is going to you know, you go up and seemed to trial, you know, what to the ego into the inner sanctum morgenthau's office and he says, you know, and I'm going to make you senior trial counsel. He say thanks boss appreciate it. They walked out the door. I was just bout time. I didn't say it. But you know sudden you can't be anywhere else in the World with bigger cases a more exciting cases than in Manhattan the Big Apple Europe. Looking Big Cheese in the you know, most prestigious DA's office. Probably in the country. You're right and I'll tell you a funny story. I was I actually was contacted by the Essex County prosecutor's office to come in to interview for their first assistant assistant prosecutors position. And when I got there I walk into the office. It was 5:30 6 o'clock in the evening and I'm expecting to meet cameras name but the the prosecutor or the county and I walk in and I sit down with a guy that I don't know. I said we don't let thought it was a midden mistress. Also the prosecutor. The interview for the first assistance job. It was well down at first his first assistant job has been filled, but we wanted you to come over to interview to interview you to try murder cases here in Essex County. I looked at him and I said I try murder cases in the biggest city in the world. Why would I ever want to come here to try murder cases? Harry do it in a place must were prestigious. I came here to interview for a boss position. And I turn around walk out the door. Let me ask you a question. Do you would you practice your sub Joey's selection of summation or your closing statements at home the way you know, like the way I used to when I was a comedian just in a room by myself the you talking to yourself. Do you do it for people I never did it no ever so you have to see you wrote it down, right everything. Yes, you wrote it down. So but it's day never stood up there with the summations with the yellow pad and Start reading and Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury. It was never on red ever. Nothing was ever read. It was all notes as well bullet points. And it the longest trials see the the doctor trial. My summation was three hours. Wow, that's a lonely bank. Robbery trial like summation was three hours. And when you have a lot of evidence to Marshall, you've really got to spend some time. But it's I never I never I never practiced them. Mmm. Although my wife would want me to she was then she would say something. You know, I don't want you to say anything stupid and sometimes I would ask my wife. What if I said something stupid what would make you think you knew that? I was saying something stupid. But isn't she would she would always come back because I'm smarter than you are but Dan isn't it amazing how just the bullet point can lead you on 10 or 15 minutes of talking right? Yeah, but when you're doing these closing arguments and You know, you were really trying to get at the heart of the jury, you know, really let them know how evil this person is, whatever and sometimes you know inflection the way you say things and you saying a thing, you know, because you see it on TV and in the movies all the time where you get these these usually defense attorneys that are very animated. So I would imagine that the prosecutors can be that way too. Absolutely they are I tried Some have you cases against some pretty animated defense attorneys who was who would like the best ones at it? Like really it full of shit, you know, they were foolish it but they were getting it over on the Joey the guy the guy I thought he was one of the best trial attorneys. I try case again tried a case against was guy by the name of Tom Klein. He's the guy tried the my first misdemeanor case with I tried a couple murder cases you worked with legal aid for years. I think he's still probably is with legal aid. I tried a couple murder cases with him. I want all one I think. I tried to of them with him. They don't make any money legally, right? No. No, they stay in the legal aid for all those years you to be that good too. Yeah, like money that's amazing your work some other guys that I started with a guy by the name of Jeremy Schneider. I try to murder case to a tie with in the guy was convicted a man to which might very well have been the correct verdict. He was he was very good another guy by the name of David Stern. These are all legal aid got Schneider and start have long since gone from legal aid, but Stern now if I got jammed up State David Stern would be on my short list of guys that I would call. I mean he was that good try to murder case against him conviction. Do these guys who work legal aid also have their own practice. So they exclusively are exclusively legal aid their full-time employees. Wow how that's how about the hide guns the big priced attorneys, who was the best of those? Who would you say was? I don't know I didn't Most of the keep in mind that most of the homicides that I that I tried were there 18b lawyers, you know, they're on a panel and but they just get picked and some are better than others. Some are a few there are very good and a few that are not so good. I tried three murder cases against Nicky Barnes lawyer David Breitbart. Besides being one of the most obnoxious human beings in the world actually called me a Nazi in court once huh bright parts are very good lawyer. Very animated. He knows what he's doing. I tried throws the bright boys named David Breitbart, you know, I used to be as doorman before I became a cop. No wonder he was good, huh? He was good. Well, he got Nicky Barnes off three murder trials and when the good Of lost when Nick and when Nikki lost Nikki fire David and went with somebody else and then they can went straight to the feds and confess this soul that he could actually kill all the people that he was acquitted those homicides, but I tried three murder cases. I was three on one. At 180 and then tried that guy again to conviction and I tried the 13th freaking my first cold case against him to a conviction and then tried another drug ripoff. The guy the guy who was his client was an acolyte of Nicky Barnes who was a kid Accolade of Nicky Barnes when Nikki was at the top of his game. And all those guys are still in jail now, I'm sorry. One guy one of the guys out. But the two other guys are still in jail and I yes, I do check every once in a while to see if people that I would put in jail for Life a still there. Although frightening lie. So besides releasing cop killers the New York State parole board is releasing other Killers as well. That's a big thing right now releasing the cop killer the bank robbery guys. They were convicted of murder and got 20 to life. They're both out there my first Cold Case. They stand the guy cut his penis off and fried and fry it paint washes away. Well, hey, wait, wait, wait, you can't just skim over there. What happening is Kim over there? They two guys picked up a gay guy and a Jim took him back to his apartment. They robbed him. They have them strangled him cut his penis off fried up in the frying pan flushed it down the toilet. And they time I just flush it down. And why are you going to fry it up for? I don't know about the crime scene photographs. There's a frying pan on the stove with liquid in it. Can't make shit like that up that guy that guy's a horrible man. That guy's out those two guys that cut off that guy's penis around one of them. Anyway, why I'm just dead one of them cooperated with me. One of them was suffering from full-blown AIDS at the time cooperated with me and testified in a seven-hour conditional exam and then when just before about six months before the case went to trial he passed away. So this was it was big news because it was a guy who was Lucien noticed guys on the street. You don't want to bump into that guy and exit being viciously killed and the and the main witness is reaching out from the grave the touch of this guy that was that would those were the stories that ran in the times Newsday post he was going to get he was convicted got 25 and did 26 He was recently got out the DA's office. Sometimes less me. No phone calls from assistant DA is and they'll tell me hey, you know Billy seals is out. That was the guy from the 13th Precinct penis case, you know, like I get a call policías just want to let you know Dan Billy seals got out and I want to let you know the bank robbery guys got out. But by the by the bank robber you guys throw professionals now in the courtroom gentlemen, absolute Channel, but then there are guys, you know are insane. Guy who killed five people. I tried this probably 98 and 1998 in the trial was and it's one of the I chopped up his brother with a circular saw after we shot him in the back of the head. He would come out and greet me every morning. Mr. Pibb. Good morning. He'd come out of the past and that the good morning. Mr. Bill. How are you this morning? I'm good Carmelo. How are you? Fine? Fine fine who's on deck for today? Who's coming hoax? Dennis is coming today. Oh my lawyers gonna eat Dennis alive. You know that my lawyers gonna kill Dennis. All right. Come along. All right every morning. He'd come out come out of the fence. Good morning. Mr. Been a cheery, you know dead being on both sides of the phone 75 the life. All right good, you know you obviously have these amazing cases from when you were a prosecutor and now you're a defense attorney and we're seeing a lot of in criminal justice. Home some of the reform that we obviously don't like cop killers being released. I am against convicted felons voting. I think that's a ridiculous. You know, I think um now they want now they want phones on juries. Well, Jerry's to I could you imagine it. Was that cold of wadia when you undertake? Yeah. Could you imagine any prosecutor saying? Yeah, I'd like that felon. He's asking to be a good dad will never have course not but where is this outrageous thinking coming from it's outrageous the progressive left. Yeah, I mean it just as a defense attorney. I'm there are certain aspects of Criminal Justice Reform that I am absolutely 100% in favor of purling cop-killers letting them letting them vote and letting him serve on your juice. That's not one of them, right, you know for 24 years, you know, I I played the game of hide the Bob will not hide the bottle. Where's I used to play hide the salami? Yeah, I know what that was a cop move those 20 years W know this Russian Discretions magnetar part of valor. And now on the blue magnet you go out. There you go out to the bars afterwards and try to find a girl play Holi song. I'll come sorry. I threw you off. Sorry. I was interesting Lee enough. So I Advance he present da who I started with a 1982 has before the The primary and before the election. I actually met with him for breakfast twice. I had been in you know, I'd been in In the you know private sector for a few years. He wanted to know first of all what happened with the Palladium case and then he also wanted to know what my thinking on what reforms could be placed in place to help the justice system improve. And I you know, I told him all about the Palladium case and I told him I said the most important thing that you can do is don't hide the salami anymore and he looked at me and didn't put it like that. I said, well you can do Discovery reform. I told him I said I'm practicing in New Jersey and practicing criminal defense in New Jersey, which I've been doing since I left the office no 6 and when you walk into a courtroom for arraignment on a on a complaint really there's a table or file cabinets. File drawers and you guys intentionally you go over you and the foul jurors will have letters on it a a through c d through F, you know and you go open you open the drawer and there will be an envelope or a box or something there and there will be all the police reports all discovery. And if there is electronic evidence, all you got to do is you walk over the prosecutors offices or if they're in the same building, you know in Essex and a lot of them place them in the same building but burgener and different so you will Up to the prosecutor's office and they hand you whatever electronic evidence they have on disk or thumb drive and you write them a check usually for a couple of bucks for the disks or couple of bucks from the thumb drive and you have just about everything that you need to defend a case the first day you walk into a courtroom and I told Vance I said that you should be doing that and remember what he told me said then at some point I'll be president of the DA's office DA's Association Outpost for some reforms like that. And I said look them I said, you know what sigh you don't need to push for you don't need to be Is Anna DA's office to have Discovery reform in New York? I said every every day is their own elected official in every da consent policy. I said you when you take office and this is especially the conversation. I had told him after the primary where he is going to be the da. I I told him I said the day you put your hand up and put your hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the law and defend the Constitution of the United States and the states of New York. You can turn around and you can have ready a policy that deals with all of the eventualities about Discovery and you can you can adequately protect Witnesses. You can adequately do things that will protect the public but you can also do something that will level the playing field for the defense because after having been in the office for 24 and now in private practice for a few I really saw in New York how on the level the playing field was and he said that that was a great idea and that I would really think about you know instituting a new discovery policy. Guess what never happened the Manhattan DA's office today is more conservative on Discovery than ever before you get nothing from them until they are legally obligated to give it to you. Now. It's unlike the Brooklyn DA's office were in many cases you get things straight out of the box. It will take a while. It will take a month or two, but you don't have to go through motions. You don't have to go through all this. Nonsense to try force them to give you something that they don't have to give you yet, you know Dan just for one second for our audience Discovery is evidence that all the evidence that the prosecution has they have to turn it over to the defense at some point. So that's what Discovery is usually happens before trial right in New York. It's called Rosario material. They are really want you're looking for a witness statements and in New York actually the law in the state. New York is that the prosecutor is not obligated to turn witness statements over until after the jury is sworn. I in my at least in my last 10 years in the office. I took a liberal view of Discovery and I started giving it out probably a couple of months in advance of trial and sometimes you get a plea as a result of it and in New Jersey we have ever done those things all the witnesses statements in front of you I can have intelligent conversations. As with my clients well in advance of trial, you know, six eight nine months before trial. I know what their case is. So basically we're talking about conviction rates. I would imagine what you're trying to say is that Manhattan is worried about conviction rates. So they don't give the discovery of they hold it as long as possible and the hopes that you're going to take a plea. Yeah, but you know what you're saying is that you'd probably take a plea earlier if you could see that all these witness statements, you're right, and you'd probably have Less trials than you do now because you're because any good defense attorney is going to tell you the more information. You have the better. You can advise your client, you know, most of the time you're advising your client with blindfolds on your advising your client in the dark because you don't know what the witness statements are. You know and in police drug cases, why in the world would you withhold the statements of police officers in a drug case? You're not you're doing nothing to advance the furtherance of the to advance the cause of Justice. What do you think? Somebody's going to threaten the cops because you turned you turned over discovery on a drug case. And you know, I recently I don't do a lot of drug work. But if they can pay I will I defend it a guy in Manhattan and this is you know, they told me what the evidence was, but they weren't giving me anything. So right before trial. I'm I'm begging the assistant my clients pissed off because he thinks he's getting railroaded. So right before trial I get fired because he thinks I'm not doing my job. And he hires somebody else and she have same thing happens to her. But she ends up getting all the evidence right before trial and the offer that was on the table one when I was when I was the attorney is now taken off the table. Well, I wouldn't offer to a lesser count and a couple and two years in prison. The offer now is the top count. And it's four years in prison. And of course, she gets the police reports and she gets everything and she calls me up. She was holy shit Den this guy screwed and now was he going to do but he's fucked he's screwed because he had two years on the table, which had he known what the evidence was. He would have taken hmm, you know, and you know, I'd sometimes I have people look at me. I have you known on people in non-law enforcement professional people look at me. While your guy knows if you did it or not, and I said not that's not the point. The point is the fairness of the Criminal Justice System. It's not whether he did it or not. It is give us give give me the things that I can show my client that he did it. I had a 1.8 million dollar fraud in the state of New Jersey before the guy was even arrested. I got a call from the Assistant Attorney General come down to Trenton will give you everything we've got got a huge box and a stack of DVDs with all kinds of with the evidence on it. And there was an offer that was going to be an offer made and it was going to be a substantial offer an Olympic 1.8 million dollar fraud as it has you would think but my guy isn't the Nile and he's telling me no I'm not no I'm going to trial this is you know Screw then think I stole one point. Going from his clients and he did it in a somewhat sophisticated way, but rudimentary enough that you know, even me and now I'm white collar guy when I went through it I go ho ho you're screwed and when I sat down with him and we went through it all sat in front of a computer for like eight hours total of about 8 10 hours with him. He came he came to Jesus. He had a moment and said I'm screwed in what do I do? Well, guess what next week they're going to tell me what the offer is. I'll try and negotiate it down a little Little bit but you're going to take it because otherwise you could be doing ten twelve years and ends up. It was a five-year offer and he ended up we ended up getting them down to four needed two and a half was this a federal case now is a state attorney general case. Okay. Well, but how about Dan with the where which some Discovery Witnesses are being outed and possibly endangered love what can't the in the new law there's a provision that the DA's office can seek In appropriate cases protective order and judges. I believe will grant them a my I did that when I was in the Manhattan DA's office. I had protective orders to trials one guy killed six people one guy killed five into trials. I have protective orders on Old witness statement witness statements until they the night before they testify right in appropriate cases. There is a mechanism for people to protect Witnesses, but in New Jersey recently had a conversation with a deputy chief of the trial division of Manhattan, I told him about practicing New Jersey and goes home. You know me Jesus Danny aren't Witnesses being intimidated and killed and everything. As a matter of fact, no said because in appropriate cases judges do liberally Grant protective orders. But so there's a mechanism in place the new law takes effect January 1st. I mean, I don't I don't haven't defending a murder case. So I don't know what Stan's they're going to take but listen in 1990 after we actually dated a guy back from Ohio for homicide. He had a witness killed from But he had a witness killed because he knew who the witness was and not because I he had any witness statements or not because he knew who they were. He was here on a drug gang together and the defendant killed his drug boss right in front of three other guys, we worked with I mean look, even you look at the whole the police department has that dd5 system the complaint follow-up system where there has to be a level of security to that or else, you know, you could go look up your brother's case in Brooklyn and know what they're going to do. We'll know what evidence they have against the relatives. I want to see if the The Noose this is the computerized system that they have now has been hacked. Well, you know something everyone I never thought it would the security was where everyone could look at it. You know what I mean. Now, of course, if you look at it your name is that you signed into the computer, but there's probably a lot of people that shouldn't be reading those fives, you know, I don't disagree with you but I defense attorney isn't one of them, right, you know defense attorneys have ethics save Same former Federal prosecutor in New Jersey who's doing life for passing information on to his drug clients and getting people killed, you know by and large you're going to give a defense attorney Discovery with names and addresses of witnesses, which they do in, New Jersey. You know defense attorneys. The first thing is going to not going to do is go to a client, you know, this is clients accused of a violent crime. He's not going to go to his client say oh, hey, here's the witness statements knock yourself out. And here's your here's your addresses and phone numbers knock yourself out. Now if I was defending if I'm defending a violent crime, which I don't do very often the last thing I'm doing going to do. I'm going to give my client all the witnesses statements, but I'm going to After addresses and phone numbers because the last thing I want is my client doing something stupid. I've already done something stupid. They're indicted for a crime last thing I want is my client doing something more stupid and getting you know threatening and isn't getting bail revoked and going right to jail. So yeah, when I get Discovery from prosecutors offices, I give everything to my client, but I will take Witnesses witness names addresses and phone numbers out because there's no need for them to know. So what almost do you cases though? if they range anywhere from done quite a few sex crimes A lot of you know lot of misdemeanor cases actually interviewed us attorney's office and one of the guy in Brooklyn one of the guys I interviewed with looked at me since world and what if you went, you know, you've tried some of the heaviest cases in Manhattan. What if you want to try and drug cases here in Brooklyn, I looked at him and I laughed and I said my last case my last trial was a misdemeanor assault case in Hillsdale, New Jersey. So, you know, I've been I've already been I've already been brought low so so so don't even tell me. I trying to try and you know 20 kilo drug case would be a step up from a misdemeanor assault case in in New Jersey. I would imagine not having a lawyer that was once a prosecutor is a benefit. I think it is and that's why I'm going to ask you. Do you have a card? You know what I did not that. I hope I never have to use eventually I usually always have cards in my pocket or cards in my bag. They're sitting on a table in my office at home. Again. This is might be a stupid question. But did you have to take the bar in New Jersey? Me too. Yeah, it's the bar exam is a two-day test New Jersey ads a day. So in when I took the bar exam there's an there are essay essay tests for each and there's what's called a multi-state exam, which is a multiple choice exam and in New York because you got a lot of people taking both of the tests the New York, essay is one day the multi-state test is the next day and then the Jersey essay is the next day. So instead of two days, I had three days of towards you actually have Go back and study again or what Yes, actually when? I was studying for the bar exam. It was about six weeks before from seven weeks before when I got out of school to the test. And I studied six days a week looks on days and so Saturday night and Sundays off and just to go see how that Pub was and even any public it was as a matter of fact at the time. I was living in West Orange, New Jersey and it was a little little bar really hole-in-the-wall bar called Brandon's where I would spend most of my Saturday nights and Sunday afternoons. But yeah and for Month there, my father my father worked in Manhattan. I was taking a bar review course at Town Hall and my father worked on 53rd and 6th and my for a month my parents were in Europe. So I would stay in my girlfriend's house on the upper west side commute down to my father's office spend 8 to 9 hours studying. Then I can go from to Bar view course from sick that 6:00 at night 6:00 to 10:00 at night and then repeat the next day and It was usually there were a couple of classes on Saturdays where three or four hours on Saturdays. Yeah, I didn't have much of a social life for said Alexis uneven bars became a defense attorney. No. No, we didn't have to take the Jersey Boys that you're hurt. I had already taken. Oh, okay, you know where they took it back in 82 also. That was smart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I knew I was going to be practicing in New York, but you know, who knows what the future was gonna write exactly how How's the Lord different to practice in New Jersey as opposed to New York? What are the differences? Well, I mean one of the big differences. I just thought you about is Discovery. None of the prosecutors offices are as big as any of the DA's office in the city the you know, when I was when I was a prosecutor there were very few defense attorneys that I did not get along with and I find at that as a defense attorney. There are very few prosecutors. I don't get along with most. A lot of times because they know where I've come from but also to I mean on your lawyers at the end of the day your lawyers and you have you have lives and this is this what you do for work. It's almost like a game in a way, you know, I mean it's a game with people's lives. But still you shouldn't this is a difference between the time that we're living in right now. You can't have a discussion with anybody without them being your enemy. They can't there's no logical. There's no if you disagree with them you mean well, yeah like you said you go ahead. Beer at the end of the day. You're both lawyers me. I agree with you and there are a number of a couple of prosecutors in the Manhattan DA's office who I think shouldn't be because of their attitude toward defense attorneys. They think were trying to get something over on them. They think we are the enemy people say well, how can you represent people who do those things? And I said, well, I don't I don't I don't represent their crime. Ames that I'm not vouching for them as people is it my job as a defense attorney is to make sure that in any given case that the DA's office has the has the evidence to show that my client committed a crime and if they do my job is to mitigate that my job is to and I tell this though a lot of my friends these days most of the time my job is a lobbyist. My job is I love you with I meet with prosecutors and either try and convince them. That they're wrong and their interpretation of the oven politicking. I know way politicking in a way mostly lobbying because I mean I've had one of the one of the first cases that I had when I went into solo practice was a kid accused of a couple of rapes up in Orange County and the kid was absolutely 100% wrongly accused by two women of having raped them. I would have tried the case was ready to try the case. I think that ultimately No, we interviewed all the witnesses. I hired Anna McAndrews retired on a mat and with homicide Squad as my investigator Johnny Mac interviewed just about all of the witnesses that this woman talked to both both before and after she had sex with these this guy and both of them not only bragged about bragged about they were going to have sex with them, but brag about it afterwards and this is after the guys already been charged. He's already been indicted and the DA's office hadn't even spoken to any of her friends. Those are motives their motive. Far be it from me to ascribe motive for somebody. I don't like I don't know who nothing. I don't know. I don't know what their motive was. Could he have money this guy? No. No, I meet his parents had enough money to pay me. Well then how about even the Assumption these days with the politics behind some of these rape cases were hashtag me to of that women are always telling the truth. And if you have ever investigated a sex crime, you know that we spoke in a sex crime detectives you have I've gone out with numerous on sex cases that Many times the complaint is lying a high percentage in six runs and they would have social service agencies saying oh no, it's the lowest of any crime and that happens to be false. Ami to movement is the worst thing that happened to anybody who's going to be accused of a sex crimes tried to sex crimes free actually since the me to mood movement really came to the Forefront you guys were convicted one guy was acquitted and it is problematic. That you've got to address all of this in jury selection instead of actually trying to get at people's true attitudes towards criminal justice and whether they can give your client a fair trial you've got to address me to right and you've got to address the assumption that the me to movement wants to set in places that everybody's telling the truth all the time during jury selection committee. Look at some of the women there and almost just based solely on The way they look can you almost determine like I don't want her. She she looks like a feminist. She looks like she's part of me to she's I don't want I need this least a few of those on my jury as possible. The worry the worry is not you know, it's in New York defense attorney attorneys do get to speak to jurors, you know in New Jersey and federally the judge does everything so you're allowed to probe. So I mean, I've never made a judgment of anybody, you know, whether there can you look at this social media pages? You're you basically you're picking a jury. You're going by what they're telling you. You're not unless it's a questionnaire case. Would you be okay with that? If that became part of this, you know, he looks like social media pages. I think people I think if you were allowed to more people would tell the truth, you know, why dear means to speak the truth? The jury I'm talking about pit selecting the jury you think they lie when they go I think this statement for the jury, I think some do I couldn't even tell you how prevalent it is, but no doubt that one or more of the the cases that I was recently tried the were convictions. You know, there were people that I left on a jury that could very well have been lying to me. I don't know because you don't get to see their social media Pages. You don't get anything other lying to you because they want to be part of the jury most of them lighting because they want to be off that you really okay. I don't like that by the way, I would never hear somebody telling me, you know, I said this when I went to the jewelry, I can't be on it because I'm racist I have can't be on it because of the you know this and you know, I don't want you know, here's his civic duty. I agree with you. It's your civic duty, but if somebody's going to do that, then you don't want I don't want them. Anyway, I went as Or prosecutor. I don't want anybody that's willing to lie in court and then and then admit it. Mmm out of court. Well, yeah, I lied to get out of jury duty. You know. I've been called for jury duty. John hartigan retired out of Manhattan with homicide went to the Bergen County prosecutor's office as an investigator. I got called a jury duty and I called Jonathan. Hey John, I'm coming for jury duty won't have lunch. He goes. Yeah, you know there really aren't a lot of helpful. He'll a lot of lunch options in Hackensack, New Jersey, but I hadn't seen John in a while. We've done a couple of Aces together and I got called the morning a cold for a tree tunnel. And you know, I guess I came in there and said and you know, mr. Bill, what do you do for a living? And I said I´m in the Manhattan DA's office, but in the Manhattan DA's office for X number of years, I prosecuted murder cases Cold Case homicides blah blah blah, you know to told him. Well my background everything. Do you think he'd be fair and impartial a hundred percent? Absolutely. I can be fair and impartial of course no defense attorney is never going to take me you know, and And no defense attorney. I don't think neither a defense attorney nor a prosecutor would take me today because I've done both. Hmm. And I mean if the emperor has no clothes, I think I'm probably the one that could see that the emperor has no clothes before anybody any non, you know law enforcement professional but you know, and I told him innocent, you know, it's all just a matter of fact, there's investigator. Who's a very good friend of mine. I'm in about an hour. I'm going to have lunch with them. So, you know, they just looks both of the attorneys who goes why don't we just let mr. Pibb go. There are a lot of lawyers like you that, you know flip switch. Yeah that happens a lot. Yeah it have its own time. And that's to make money at some point. Well, I left because of a case. Yeah this get to that I just told me that side as much as you can almost as much as you can share you want to share you were having this run with the DA's office and the time of your life right there. You loved it, right weld every minute of it and then he been shot best job a lawyer could ever had it went head-on into a case that changed your mind your opinion a little bit. Right? What was that case in Thanksgiving night of 1990 at the Palladium nightclub. There was a balance is good club. By the way never went there. I went to never went there. There was a bouncer who was shot and killed and a friend of mine. She's Scirocco picked up the case. - and tried eventually tried to guys one of whom by the by had made admissions to his girlfriend that he had been he had been involved course admissions that I thought were ultimately false because he was just being a braggart an idiot and another guy from Washington Heights was also tried convicted and sentenced to 25 to life with a friend's 18 name. They didn't know each other but somehow the two Was supposed to get involved in kill this bouncer, right? So they were tried convicted 25 to Life. By the way in front of them. One of the most liberal judges in the system guy by the name of Jay Gould. In that was driving those two guys though. How did they even get put together? The kind of thing with David Limas was identified because David leaves his girlfriend had confided in a friend of hers that David had admitted to her to being involved. in a homicide Unfortunately for Limas although admitting to being there in many to be a gunman in the homicide. He got most of the facts were on to lying facts wrong. But Limas is put Lena's has picked up based on that admission. He's put in a lineup and he said that if I buy for Witnesses bad case, you would think right? Yeah the admissions to person close to him. You have for eyewitness identification. So that's good enough for me. The second guy. There was a detective in the 3-4 Precinct whose Name Escapes Me and wasn't big fan back in the day, but he what he said what he tells Steve. Is that a an informant of his Comes to here comes to him and says that this guy a guy by the name of olmedo Hidalgo was involved in the Palladium homicide. So I Dalgo had been arrested a couple of times from nonsense and was actually being looked at for a number of drug rip offs. Apartment Invasion drug were Provisions home invasion, but they were drug ripoff side and they had his picture and they put his picture in he gets identified by four Witnesses same four witnesses that identified the other guy two of the same and two different. So you got four if this space of a photo array or line up line up? So you got first initially photo array lineup for the lineup for Limas. There were no photo arrays that if my recollection is correct. They did a photo array with Hidalgo and he was identified and then they picked them up and he was again identifying the lineup so they go to trial Not A Bad Case back in the 90s. You got you got multiple witness identifications how it how could it be that for people are mistaken? On two different guys, especially since one of the guys make submissions that he was there and involved. Well, 95 us attorney's office brings a witness by the name of Joey pelant to the attention of Steve Sirocco and Steve does a an investigation and plot basically says that he and a guy by the name is Spanky members real name right now. He and he had Little Rascals. He must have been really off from the Bronx. He says he and he's always remember of Called CNC or which were out of 4 or 1 3 9 and Brooke very bad area. But yes a huge huge drug spot huge drug spots all over the place there and CNC ran the neighborhood. Basically, it was a José calderón and kushan whose name was Jose up Jose Padilla. They killed people at the drop of a hat a You know, you looked at him wrong, they tortured and murdered a guy a guy and his girlfriend who were there buying drugs because I thought they were ripped them off. They tortured him took him they torsional for a while and put him in the back of a box truck and shot him to death. These these were bad bad really bad guys. And Joey says that he was at the Palladium was Spanky Richie and peachy and Joey tells a story of course leaving himself out. He's not involved. So Joey tells problem. Here's Joey tells three different stories of what he did and what he was telling his story. He's trying to get off at something, you know, the feds the feds have them on rack on Rico on drugs. They lifetime life, you know. And Joey wants to be cooperator and Joey's thing for his life. The problem is that you'll realize repeatedly and he tells three different stories. Well, they end up getting a little bit more and a little bit more and they end up doing a motion the defense attorney still motion to set aside the verdict. They do a hearing and Steve thought that at the time this is probably 96 that the judge Jay Gould was going to set aside the verdict. Well, he didn't segue to 2002. What does that mean set aside the verdict means vacate the convictions and get an order laughter. They got tried and they got found guilty. They're doing time or any find out this new evidence and you think that the judge is going to when you produce this level dance that gonna let these guys out. Well Grant him a new trial at least. Okay? Yeah. Alright and so, but he didn't he didn't he denied the motion wine. There was an opinion which he said that he didn't believe a lot. He didn't believe you only plot. So segue to 2002 when Richie is now being prosecuted by the southern district of feds, and he comes forward and he gives a story that of course exculpate himself, but implicates Joey and Joey spanking and peachy. So Steve meets with these two. Bronx homicide detectives balmy El Dorado and John Schwarz, and I meet with them as well. Say we're going to open up a new investigation. You know, I think he's getting out of federal prison. They're threatening to go arrest Mill Up In Minnesota where he is in prison and bring them back and we're so we had that we actually had to call the chief of detectives would often say well this guy off he can't go to Minnesota and arrest the guy on a Manhattan Manhattan Manhattan homicide. He can't you know, that's what he's threatening to do. He's out of his jurisdiction. So an investigation begins my partner Steve Sirocco is retiring in April 2003. And of course, I begin the investigation with him we go out to fair and federal Corrections. We interview Richie Feliciano Ritchie. Feliciano is obviously lying about his own involvement because Joey has put them in the mix back in 95. So but he says I wasn't involved. I was just there and these other guys did it. So what sets me on a two-year investigation through I don't know. I remember how many 14 federal prisons 28 States interviewing Witnesses. Everybody that was prosecuted under with CNC. It was about 22 just because you wanted to make this right you want to make sure that the two guys is sitting in prison should be there. Right either we or should or shouldn't yeah, we shouldn't eat it was on your conscience. And it step by step and it witnessed by witness. I pretty much started to become convinced that these two guys were likely not guilty not saying innocent I'm saying not guilty that they shouldn't be in jail that there is enough doubt there about who did this at these two guys shouldn't be sitting in jail. I eventually came to the conclusion that Richie peachy Spanky and Joey were the were for all four involved. And that David Limas a no matter who made a Hidalgo were not involved one of the things that push me over the edge was was Spanky's brother. Now we spent his brother was married to a woman from Arizona know from Texas. They were in the Army from Texas. He was in Bliss Fort Bliss down in South Texas and met this girl marries her moves her back to the South Bronx. Imagine. The shock is woman of the South Bronx has the South Bronx. Oh my God, and what happens is not we're moving on. Up up up not the opposite of that. She her husband Bodega was her husband gets activated for Desert Shield now she's there by yourself and now she's there by herself with his family and Spanky Spanky tries to rape her and while he tries to rape her he event evidently tells her about him being involved in you know, he's gonna shit and everything. And she gets away. She flees this I won't she reports it to the police. But she leaves for South Texas goes back to Texas awaiting her husband's return from from Desert Storm which eventually which eventually come to Desert Storm. But when the Army finds out that she was an attempted rape victim and that they actually shipped him home to be with her which I found crazy currently odd, but you know the Army did the right thing. Change him home to South Texas and he tells her of Spanky's involvement in the Palladium. Now, we didn't know what she knew about Spanky's involved in the Palladium. But by this time she is a border patrol agent in in Tucson. We fly to Tucson and we speak to her and like oh my God, this is huge. You know, it's Maggie's brother knows about his involvement in the Palladium. so, of course we leave South Texas and we fly and we immediately try to get trying to locate him. Now. He's a legit citizen never been involved in drugs never, you know, grew up in one of the worst neighborhoods in the Bronx never touched drugs never touched anything. He's the head maintenance man at the Jewish Theological Seminary in Upper Manhattan. Hmm and he's a legit citizen. Yeah, he's about as legit legit. Is he gay if coming out of the South Bronx? So we get hold of him Carlos Rodriguez. One of the detectives gets ahold of him and starts talking to him on the phone trying to convince him to talk to us. and one day Carlos calls me up and says I just got off the phone with Spanky's brother and he's a little bit cocktailed up. He's willing to talk. So we actually sent an interview for I think was that Friday night turns out that Carlos is getting married that day. So I said we can postpone the we can postpone this because you're not getting married at City Hall my buddy Mark member of the judge is going to marry you. We postpone the interview to what we call them up. Tell them come in and Monday and he comes on Monday. And he immediately tells us immediately opens up. He says the night before on Thanksgiving night. We're all planning. You know, we're planning have Thanksgiving dinner and Joey peachy Richie and Spanky show up at his apartment or a relative's one of the relatives apartments and they're trying to get him to go with them to the Palladium. He says, no absolutely not. It's Thanksgiving. I'm not going to the Palladium. And they're driving a car that witnesses to the shooting say they see fleeing the scene after the shooting. I can't remember what it was. It was blue and power of blue Ford four-door sedan. And he says that the next morning Spanky shows up at his apartment and regales him with her story of him being in in the club being asking to go out and come back in which was against the rule the rule to security rules. You can't leave and come back or if you want to come back. It's another 20 bucks. So spanking gets pissed gets in a fight with one of the bouncers and gets literally gets bounced out of the club. One of the guys I can't remember which of the four guys comes out Richie comes out and sees that Spanky's been he's bounced out club. Richie says, you know I leave I go back in I got the other two guys we go down we go down the car. We'll get our guns and we go back. And Richie Rich. He's not armed but performs a job in that. He's distracting some of the bouncers. Frankie's the eventual shooter Joey is armed with a nice done. If I with the bounces the other guys trying to a fuck you yes that the other Spanky's wanted was a nine that ends up jamming. Spanky's got a revolver and peachy, you know me neither is going back a long time peachy was involved. I can't remember exactly what he did. What happens is the guy who has bounced Spanky out of the out of the bar is now inside. So there's three or four bouncers outside that had nothing to do with throwing him out. Always happens but he then put, you know, they pulled their guns always gun jams and Maggie gets off for five rounds. It's the chief of security in the leg and hits another balancer and it twice in the chest and he goes out. And the three of us stood there looking at, you know, sat there looking at each other like holy shit David Limas on the people convicted after trial was identified as the person who was thrown out of the club and comes back with the revolver and does the shooting. I'm you know, I've been doing this a long time by then 20 years, and I know it's really difficult to have two people doing the same thing. Exactly during the exact same thing during a crime. It's Maggie's brother whose name it again escapes me really pushed me over the edge about Limas and Hidalgo being involved. There were four people involved. I know who they are evenly missing on Heroku mellow made a Hidalgo or not 1 or not them. David Lee Miss may very well have been there, but he was not involved should have are easy be walking out of the club and watch the shoes and go down. So then the big issue is that you know this now and you went to your boss and told him that you wanted these guys to be released and you do it from prison, right? And but the Manhattan DA's office still wanted to go with it. They didn't want to go against There's there's things that I can't discuss. Okay, because of attorney-client privilege and since you know since 2006 when I left the DA's office, I've talked about this a lot people wanted people want to know about it people want to know what happened but there's attorney-client privilege there that I have never violated and won't violate. I know that you know people think I'm crazy but you know, it's just something I won't do what ended up happening is. When I can tell you a couple of things that when I expressed my belief. It was told to me that they would have somebody else assigned to me if it came to do a hearing. that never happened until approximately last week in March of Oh 502 Min assigned to you while there would be another assistant DA would take over the case if they decided, excuse me, if they decided to go to a hearing and defendant convictions that another assistant DA would do the hearing defend the conviction, right? And that's that's what you're doing at a hearing you know, Bob morgenthau eventually came out with a letter to the Press after I went public saying that the hearing was done to determine what the evidence was have still I still maintain a ton of For Robert morgenthau. I never did a trial or a hearing to determine what the facts were. I already knew what the facts were right. I didn't I didn't just throw Witnesses on the stand for a jury to make a decision want to prosecute a guy it was because I made a determination that I can prove. This guy's guilt Beyond a reasonable doubt that I have a shit my share of acquittals. Yeah. If you didn't have your share of Coolidge you weren't trying tough cases. You weren't making tough calls, you know, if everything you had and if all you wanted was The Smoking Gun literally The Smoking Gun and A dozen eyewitnesses fingerprints and DNA then you weren't doing your job. You weren't trying the tough cases and I will try and tough cases and the hearing this hearing was was not done to determine what the evidence was. We knew what the other nurse was. I knew what the evidence was. What I what I will tell you is this is that in the last meeting before the hearing began. It was between me and see Ryan who is chief of the trial division Robert morgenthau and Jim Kinsler who was First assistant DA and I can't tell you what happened during mean what was said during the meeting but you know, I'll let your imagination run wild but at the end when I express my disbelief that I was being forced to do something that I didn't believe in I'll never forget what Jim Candler told me and this is this is a direct quote. I don't know what you have from whatever made you think you were going to do that hearing and I looked at it. I looked at my boss and my direct boss Nancy Ryan has said she did a year ago when she told me she was Find somebody else to do the hearing if it came to it. So I ended up doing the hearing. I was unhappy to say the least. I was determined that the right thing was going to happen. And as far as I was concerned, the right thing was the these convictions were going to be set aside. With that in mind keep in mind as well that neither the attorneys on the case back in nineteen ninety and ninety five are the attorneys on the case. Now, there are new Council. They're doing a pro bono. They've never interviewed any of the witnesses. None of them and I had of course into every every single one of them in person often times more off more than once now, we probably talked to Spanky's brother in person five or six times before this earring. So what I did is I got old before the hearing. I got all the witnesses in I prepped him to testify as effectively as they could. I didn't coach Witnesses. I didn't tell him what to say. I told him tell me the truth and it but I prepped him to testify one of the one of the most important witnesses to testify at that hearing was Spanky's brother. Maggie's brother. Did it in closed courtroom during The Crow and the interesting thing is just about I think it was every witness that was called except for the detective who was assigned to the case back then back in the 1990 they introduced themselves, the defense attorneys introduced themselves to the witness when they begin cross-examination of the one they began their direct examination of the witness. They never seen them. There was both of them didn't know who they were well, But they didn't have to defend them. Hmm. Well, they're putting the keep in mind. They're putting the Witnesses on the stand. This is their burden. Mmm. And you know, there was a guy there was a guy Again, whose name whose Name Escapes me but he was a member of CNC and had killed six people himself by his own hand on orders from either kuso nor or Calderon and he testified and I basically asked them on cross-examination. So You Killed six people said, yeah. That was it. I mean I could have torn that guy up, but but that guy was an important witness as far as I was concerned. doing what was right and I exaggerated a little bit Yeah, I cross them and I asked them some about the homicides but I could have taken tools homicides I could tell I could have had that with that guy on the stand for days on end. Just talking about his own crimes, but it wouldn't have helped and what helped was his testimony about what Spanky and Joey had told them told him the day after the Friday after Thanksgiving. And I mean they were they were other words. They ended up calling Joey pelant. At the hearing and I was so angry and we want you know, I want to talk a lot a couple of times in prison and I was so angry at pull lot for having lied repeatedly, you know when he was interviewed by the DA's office and then on the witness stand at the first hearing that I made a determination if they call plot that I would absolutely go to town on him and I got to tell you I had I had more fun cross-examining that guys then you can shake a stick at but it was all for show. As I didn't care if the judge believed people are not you know, because there was so much other evidence that Richie peachy Spanky and Joey were the perps and not David Limas and olmedo Hidalgo so dead did you ever after this? It's tremendous amount of Integrity that you showed. Did you have to resign you think we are if you hadn't you would have been dead in that office. So you'd why did you know I well. When I was told I had to do the hearing I figured there was I'll tell you another funny part of this whole thing is when I was told I had to do the hearing and Kendall said that to me. I called A buddy of mine who's a civil engineer knows about law enforcement what I tell them okay those you know Knows by the criminal justice system will I tell him so I said listen, I just had the bath the worst day a my office in my life. I need to drink so we met at a bar about a mile from our house and we ended up drinking fifteen-year-old McAllen like the Out of it like a bottle and a half. And we actually had to call our wives to come and get us and I remember the next morning going out with its monster hangover to go to work and seeing shit. Where's my car? My wife says don't you remember now? Like she was this at the bar you moron. Hmm. So but while we're sitting there while we're sitting there drinking, you know, my buddy Mike and I feel I'll tell you a like- a shout out to you brother. I'm going to tell you to listen to this so when I you know, we're talking to my buddy my buddy. System Eagles. Why don't you just lose? I looked at him I said what do you mean? What are you why don't I just lose because I figured out if I had two options resign under protest or do nothing not go to the hearing and get fired. You know and keep in mind, you know, I got little kids at the time. Absolutely, you know, I got huge mortgage to pay and I got there's no way I can quit, you know, I can't resign because I need this job. So you threw the game so I decided to throw and he goes just lose and I looked at him I said, you know, I when I charge somebody with a crime or when I do something in a courtroom, and I'm here to win. Yeah, you know today that because because I believe that what I'm doing is justice. You know, I don't I don't go in there. I you know, I I charge a guy with a homicide because I believe he's guilty and I through this hearing because I believe these guys were not just not guilty. They were factually innocent and we're not involved in that homicide and you know, I to this day I always whenever I see him which is which is nowhere near as often as it should be I always tell him I always thank him. It's a yo, bro, this was your idea and then he's like, I don't even remember that man. We were so drunk. You remember that? That's great though from the grounds of drunks. I tell you something. Yes. Yes. So you something you know what? Well you were talking for the whole two and a half hours every time you were painting a picture. I could always see the scene and I was mentioning earlier about your TV show that you should have that should be based on you. You know what I'm saying? The former prosecutor turns into a defense attorney these big cases what it let you there you getting locked up for drunk and shit and a lot of just a lot of work on this is gun. But a lot of it, you know, it has the feeling of turns out A Few Good Men and it turns out you are one of the few good men that were out there you you you basically you were caught between a rock and a hard place your drunk friend help you out of it don't want in a guy shooting me forgetting them off. Yeah. Fuck that guy man. The guy had all go the ended up after the hearing I said, I'm done. Okay. Anyway, no more Court appearances for me. Nothing for me. I'm finished over. I want nothing to do with this. You do it you do what you're going to do from here. And the guy they had second seat the hearing it's just the a signed the last minute so many patiently to watch me, you know, he takes over and you know, he's he knew nothing about the case. So every day he's coming in to talking to you about the case third deciding what they're going to do and you know, finally did it they decide that they're going to set aside their going to consent to set aside olmedo hidalgo's conviction, but they're going to fight to save David Lima His conviction which makes no sense, which makes no sense because most of the evidence that I gathered during the course of almost two year investigation went to lie mrs. Involvement not hidalgo's made no sense to me. It doesn't even told him. I told him this makes no sense. I said most of the evidence says that you know goes against Limas not is shows that Limas didn't do it. Not a dog. Oh, but they're like now I will set aside a dog goes in go to saved at Elena's. Well, of course the judge It was a friend Roger Hayes still on the bench. I think he's leaving at the end of the year which is which is a loss by the way. He was acting chief of the trial division in 1982 when I started but the judge you no, no, I'm not going to say how but he knew what my thinking was on the case and you know, he end up he ends up setting aside Limas his conviction. And they retry him well, and he was swiftly quit it Hidalgo sued, but did not sue me. And the city ends. Well what happens now Limas is Limas is out. I mean they he had said they set bail when he said set aside the conviction so he'd been out for a while now Limas is acquitted and Limas is going to sue and I get a call from his attorney and he goes, you know were suing the DA's office. I said well, okay I said listen, I just appreciate it. If you don't sue the guy who got your guy out. You've got you guys out of juice exactly. so it was a Saturday and I run swim meets all my kids were competitive swimmers. So and I still do today to this day and I runs from leaves for New Jersey swimming and that's Saturday. I was running a swim meet and the son of a bitch had Federal Marshals come up and serve my wife with a complaint. With a civil rights complaint and I was absolutely livid. So, of course I call him on Monday and named call him every name in the book. Well, but yeah David Lee massoud me. Thanks David. Yeah, forget no more for yeah exactly for - oh, they say no good deed goes unpunished exactly go. That's a great way to end the show. I'm sorry that we're running that we ran out of time while ago but we had a we had a finished listen to this story. That's a fantastic story. And at least you had like I said, he one of the Few Good Men he stuck his neck out for two people that were wrong. Wrongfully convicted. He went the whole way with it. And then he got sued in the end. So it was nice knowing you by the way, and if you need a place to stay if you lose your house whatever, you know bill has this palatial estate. I got any rooms is kids are out there in college my vacation spot. Anyway, Dan. I want to thank you want to thank you so much. We miss got 1.1 million and Hidalgo got 2.2. Whoa, that's no Crime Pays. Yeah. But they didn't do the crime scene years 15 years ago. Yeah, that's not worth it and nowadays they get a hundred and twenty million for anyway. Thanks Dan for coming that it was great and it was a pleasure having you here and we like we tell Lorelai guest September 21st. We're going to have a comedy show a podcast live podcast podcast the comedy show afterwards Pleasantville you and we're going to be inviting all our past guest on to cool come in and be part of the live podcast catch. Up with you everybody's going to get a couple of minutes to tell us what they're up to and we'd love to have you for them for that absolutely loves him. All right on behalf of Bill any parting words? No, I just again I'd like to thank Dan bib. He's the first non-police guest and he was it was fascinating. I mean, you know, he's not even drinking imagine if he was drinking how many hours of stories he could tell ya not quite as many as Mike Sheehan we got to get Mike. I've been trying to get Mike in here. I can't have a phone from I do. Yeah. I want to get it. I think he'd be getting I love Mike you guys will be here. For a day, you know, what's funny when you were telling me that drinking stories. Would young I thought about Mike I said this kind of trouble might get super so he was a guy who taught me a lot. God bless. He's a good man. I want his number ankle at what a lot with I'll give it to you. Nobody. All right. Thanks. I'm I'm in touch with him all time. Well, and on behalf of police off-the-cuff man. Thanks for tuning in and we look forward to having this. Absolutely. Let me know. Over and out. Well, I've been trying to get in touch with Mike Sheehan. I used to coordinate the homicide.
On Part 2 of our interview with Dan Bibb, he talks about choosing Justice over victory in the fabled Palladium homicide case. Dan Bibb began his career as an Assistant District Attorney in the New York County District Attorney’s Office in 1982 under legendary District Attorney, Robert M. Morgenthau. During his career at the DA’s Office Dan investigated and tried some of that Office’s most high profile matters, including criminal activity ranging from commercial fraud to homicide. In addition, while at the DA’s Office Dan was personally responsible for the development of new evidence in the so-called Palladium homicide that led to the exoneration of the two people convicted of the crime and the prosecution of the real perpetrators. Dan led the investigation and prosecution of a precedent setting homicide case in which a doctor murdered his wife and disposed of the body. Dan was appointed Senior Trial Counsel and as a result of his many of his high profile investigations, prosecutions and convictions received extensive media attention. When he retired from the DA’s Office, Dan was Unit Chief of the Cold Case Homicide Unit. A number of the investigations and prosecutions Dan handled were the subjects of full length non-fiction books. Dan left the DA’s Office in 2006 after an illustrious 24 year career. In February 2006, Dan joined the White Collar Criminal Defense and Internal Investigations Groups of an AmLaw 200 law firm concentrating exclusively on the defense of individuals and business entities charged with crimes or under investigation by federal, state or local law enforcement authorities in New York and New Jersey. After spending two years at a big firm, Dan struck out on his own as a solo practitioner and continues to represent people and business entities involved in criminal investigations. As a prosecutor and defense attorney Dan has tried over 120 criminal matters to verdict. He is well respected by his colleagues in the defense bar, the bench and prosecutors’ offices. If Dan cannot negotiate a disposition that is satisfactory to his clients, he has 31 years of experience and the skill and savvy to give his clients a fighting chance in the courtroom. 