Welcome back to calling all friends the collaborative Opinion podcast where each week you will hear from different people in different ways. If you're new to the show, our topics are suggested via Instagram, you can find us at calling your friends dot pod and when we were initially getting this together and I was first asking for ideas and themes anxiety and depression came up really frequently in my DMs because it's such a huge conversation. There will have to be multiple episodes on this subject. But this week I thought we'd Focus specifically on social media and how that can impact our mental health. We're still at the very start of a brand new year and some of you may have set yourself some goals around social media. But remember there is never a bad time to make positive change. And if you feel that the time you're spending online may be doing more harm than good. This episode might be for you before we get to our call. I want to know how social media makes you feel. Social media can make me feel absolutely everything it can make me feel happy sad angry. I think it all depends on the kind of mood I'm in so if I'm feeling quite down already then if I see someone with a really clean house or a really gorgeous looking makeup or dress then it just makes me feel absolutely terrible and quite angry about myself. However, it can make me feel really happy when I see amazing things that are being done or when someone is really I can feel really happy for somebody. I think the way that we see social media can depend on what we are feeling on that particular minute or hour or day because we would feel may be very different the day after if we looked at the same post or watch the same video all over again in 2017. I was pregnant with my second set of twins. I was given a diagnosis of a rare but life-threatening pregnancy complication. The only way I found Comfort was to search on social media for somebody who Been through the same diagnosis as myself and now I share my story online to to help others who may be going through the same or similar situation to feel less alone. So I think social media has a positive impact on my life and my mental health. Ultimately. I feel like social media is got some sort of hold on like a lot of people I've got this like love-hate relationship with it were sometimes I love it. And I love seeing you know updates on people that I don't see very often and then other times I get fed of us in the same advert and the same people person so rubbish and I deactivate my account for a little while and then I have to come back to it because I miss keeping in touch with people. Who is an actively keeping in touch but just being able to see what people do it without being in touch with them? I think social media has the ability to make you feel amazing. You can ride a wave of positivity if that's where your mindset is and share that and get that feedback from other people. However, it has the ability to make you feel really bad if you're not in a good place or You're so somewhere in the middle bit of a gray area a couple of posts from people that make you feel inferior that your life isn't good enough that you haven't made a success of things can really be quite damaging. I think it has a the ability to have a Force for good me too body positivity all the sort of hashtags. No airbrushing all fantastic movement that by and large have a lot of the time starts on. Each other spread on social media, but there is that element of it's not real. Lots of people are showing something that isn't real and so your everyday average mundane person that works 9 to 5 Monday to Friday, you know has a holiday a year that they've saved up for worked hard for and pays the bills watching these people that are constantly on holiday and appear to just get things gifted to them. Feels very vacuous and it can feel quite insulting and it's although they're trying to advertise something and that's that's taken for granted. You know that but it can build a throwing it in your face that you are just an average player Bob and this isn't the life that you're going to have and I'm not saying that's intentional at all. I think people make a living out of it and that's fine but for younger People there's this whole fake emptiness out there. That just has no substance and it's hard to explain that the people with a teenager in my life now not in that way. It's hard to explain that that's not a role model or a something to aim for I personally flip-flop on this one myself is an amplifier for me. And if I'm feeling good that I look for the good and I can back away the bad but if I'm already on a downer that it can definitely Lee it like it doesn't uplift me it can bring me down further. We know that everyone shows their highlight reel but it doesn't stop us from seeing their feed and wishing we had that bag or that figure or that job. We were on that holiday or just that we feel as happy as they look in the picture and even as a content creator, I know it's a game I've staged photos. I've posted happy smiles when that's not how I'm feeling. I sent a tough parts of my life sometimes and even knowing all of this. I'm still susceptible to these same irrational fomo feelings it sometimes feels like will never In off or being off or measure up and you could be forgiven for thinking the whole thing is toxic but like Primark on a Saturday morning. There's good stuff to be found. If you really want to look for it. I know it was a terrible analogy my guest this week is just about the most perfect person to weigh in on this topic Fiona Thomas literally wrote the book on depression in the digital age. She overcame her own anxieties and survived a nervous breakdown and has gone on to help other people through her work and the community she's created online. If you are listening to this podcast chances, are you enjoy social media? To some degree. It's probably how you found out about it. And if you've lived through this bizarre transition from analog to digital age. You will love Fiona's book. She was also kind enough to give me a review quote for my own book last year. So, you know, we generally love Fiona. I actually recorded this call from my car to be sure we weren't interrupted since Fiona super busy. She was very generously giving me her time and we ended up running really really long and I totally ran away with the conversation in parts we talked about what we wanted from social media like when we pick up our friend she made some really Good points. I'd never thought of before when we pick up our found what we're looking for how it makes us feel whether we relying on it for something that we can't get in our offline lives how difficult it is to find help and an unexpected theme was our relationship with alcohol whenever the subject of potentially toxic habits is in the air. My mind always goes there. So although it's not entirely on topic. I think it is relevant. And I found Fiona's responses to my constant tangents to be really insightful. Hello, I'm like, it's me because mental health is such a massive massive topic. I felt like I wanted to break it down a little bit into chunks and I thought our social media would be a really like a nice easy chunk to start with but I feel like maybe that was actually the biggest chunk so back trunk. And also my issue is that social media is just that they got for anything that's going anything that's gone wrong in anyone's life. Especially mental health everybody just seems to want to blame social media. And actually I want to tell you is just big you've got a personal issue going on and it maybe you're ignoring it by scrolling through social media. Does that make sense? I completely agree. I think it's an amplifier. Yes. So in the same way that I mean, I know that alcohol is a depressant but in the same way that if you go out and you feeling really great you have a drink then you'll feel great. But if you feel really down it can meet you really really bad. I think social media is this thing? So like if you're in a good mood you got bro, if you're in the bad mood, then you constantly comparing yourself and it'll bring you down exactly and a lot of it. By speaks a lot safer to participate in social media and when I'm writing articles and things like that and in the thing they always see as don't don't go online and tell you're emotionally ready and think about why you've kept up your phone and that's that's a big thing that a lot of people struggle with those quiet. I pick them up or there's a lot of the time it's because you're on your own and you may be feeling lonely so stuck up your phone, but then when you use concerns regarding you see everyone That's ability that get invited to or everyone's having an AO and you do you know what I mean? So whatever you're feeling is already on your Mains and then when you go into the world of social media UK know if you're feeling crap, you've got that negative bias. So you're already going to pack. Oh, whatever makes you feel even worse. I love that. I'd never really thought about what your I know from social medias pick up your phone. Why are you picking up your phone by what do you want? From your phone in that moment. Yeah and a lot of the time. That is just muscle memory as just for me. I work from home. So when I pick up my phone, it's Daniel because I'm avoiding did whatever's on the laptop. So at the moment is some very much take a books or a lot of the payment be like rate for 30 seconds back up bottle and it's like no no you need to write this book quite deep and because fascinating a lot lately that's good. And I think as because I wanted to be really Good, and I know that for it to be really good to have to put a lot of work Chris research and rewrites and I think it's just that kind of self sabotage of actually. No, I'm not going to make it good. I'm just going to ignore I'm gonna ignore it because there's that fear or and all this work and then it's not good then I'm not dish so I'm just a couple. Yeah, that's totally true. That's the overwhelming feeling of like if like if I don't even try and it's not that great then Arnie I didn't try but if I Really hard and it's not that great. Then where do I go from there? Exactly. That's like the end of the road. I did read somewhere that it's something like but you feel Phantom vibrations like if you are in an apple watch for example, and I know that this is for sure true because I got here in there. I'll remember to put it on but occasionally even though it's been such a brief feel Phantom vibrations on my wrist and it's like an endorphin thing. Apparently your body does it to you because it wants you to have that great feeling of looking at your phone and seeing that someone sent you a Message or getting that like rush and so your brain actually sends you these Phantom. Was that my phone I have never heard. It sounds legit to me. Yeah, it does because it's your body you want those like you'd want that Rush? You're like and public or you're on the bus. So every year that you're around like a big group of people and someone thought someone's gone. Right and you're like was that me and it's not you and you're like, no it's not it's not really likes me. Yeah. Yeah. It's a celebrity I think for me recently that maybe not like to social media, but as am not forward as my email in like my work email and I tweeted the writers recently so I can tell how will my self-esteem as by how often I checked my junk meal because it's literally like making through the truck. Yes for validation. Yeah, like that's not had a bulbous talk a bit exciting emails, but I didn't exciting emails. Maybe it's in my junk. Maybe somebody emailed me bitches. With this amazing opportunity that makes so much sense. I wouldn't I would not have tied that self-esteem be totally right like when I am feeling like oh, no haven't done any like major work in a while. No one's contacted me to do anything. I mean at the moment, I feel like it's daily. I'm looking at my junk email daily. I'm convincing myself, but there's gonna be something in there and then it's all like, you know penis enlargement and eHarmony and bikes and she like that, but that's completely true when I never thought. It like that. I had a few things I use social media to kind of counteract that is that because I have built up in a really positive community on Instagram and to list except on Twitter. I basically whenever say it could never somebody say something nice to me or said something about my book or something about in may be done. Speaking gig somewhere in the past some great feedback. I screenshot that shit and I see that and I put on the folder and when I'm feeling crap, I go to the folder and I beat all the nice messages that people are saved me and and that feels amazing. I like that and I hear a lot that like I listen to a lot of podcasts where people are interviewing like actors and actresses and stuff and so many people and even with authors so many people say you can't let in any of it like you you don't let in the criticism then you can't let him the good but why like the good is literally all there is like that's why you're doing it the engagement from people the people saying I really enjoyed this. I'm not talking about just you know, flattery flattery sake but people saying, you know, I'm really really enjoyed this thing that you did if you don't like that in then why would you do it the first place because it's good for ask people to message me and tell me what All of the book the glue of the way to message me and say something like switches. I mean it sort of feels feels genuine. So why would you not drink that up? Yeah. No, I completely agree. So with you working from home being self-employed and how do you deal now with like the bad days the diet the days when you feel like you really want to go a bit. And I mean some things just don't get it. That's the great thing about is that some teams. Did you get up or I will forgive myself for straight away or not get injured or in No, it is breakfast. Not like a lot of water like felt like it's really cheesy but self-forgiveness is such a huge part of in good mental health and the forgiving yourself for not meeting these although having a shower everyday doesn't seem like an unrealistic expectation but these expectations that that UK to put on yourself like why do you have to assure before 12 o'clock? It's okay if you don't so, yeah, it'd be forgiveness. it was like a big thing, but then also schedule it and tape actually evil people because if I don't get the whole thing out only see my husband and during the day so I've started organizing like co-worker in advance and my area Which is super helpful because it's like a Schedule D every month here. I go and meet other Freelancers and I put it on a bit late. So it's actually open to anyone. So it's not like I'm just inviting people. I know virtually anyone can come and see one so that's I think that's really important. And that's also quite like that kind of takes. What I like about social media is that you can connect with anyone but you can meet so many people from all different walks of ladies. So I try and take that sentiment to take it into real life. Yeah, it can still be social. It's not just about scrolling through pictures. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. You've got to you can scroll scroll scroll, but you like bioview not DM someone waving not left a nice comment on their picture a wave. You're not bought something from that person maybe not signed up to the email list of ever like engaging like as creators were all about engagement. But as I can summarize the only engage with people Because that's where you get the real value and you can meet people I've known of people strike up conversations in comments of other people and like become friends. That is what it's for. I have met so many friends through social media I speak about this quite frequently work with the friends that I've got that I don't really have any like what I would consider to be colleagues in this industry. I don't have like blogging friends and I have any friends that I wouldn't still be friends with this. We all stopped building tomorrow. I know that's not the same for everyone. one like it is legitimately social and I don't have I don't have like the the bandwidth to pretend to be friends with people and to be so like I want my social to be like real it's not you know, when you talk about engaging I know that that sometimes it can there are two different versions of that and one is like legitimate genuine engagement and one is it's just Hollow and people reaching out and contacting people and this doesn't have to be created this could be Viewers as well and sometimes on the flip side that could become like trolling. because it's someone someone like thwack. Let's collaborate. Hmm, but it can be like good about like people like hate follow people. I think that there is there's like a line between real life and social media that we've put up that doesn't really need to be there. But we assume that everyone online is like, oh they're just a head. We're in actual fact. Everyone online is like available potentially for you to become friends with if they have put themselves out on social media. That's such a good Such a good point of it like this imaginary light because obviously all the stuff that's happened recently about certain influencers trolling people on on these dates and it seems it seems obviously it's not clear though. Yeah, it seems that there's not going to be any consequences for that with had that happen then out of long event. She's the face like the person may have been arrested. Yeah. So we're definitely and that is a doctorate in social media that we're living and less fees. We were all kind of feeling our way around than the dark but hopefully so now all be sorted. Yeah. Well, hopefully a very least hoping there's some like guidelines or something for that. But like that's a great example of like that person was looking for engagement, but they were just doing it wrong like everything they said 100% is a great with and when I was aware of to begin with anyway, but you know, we're not endorsing any of that but I mean like the read the how I can get along with the fact that I know that people are out there trolling me somewhere is they are looking for engagement anywhere that they can find it and rather than looking directly to the people that perhaps they are interested in they are creating that that line but isn't really there and so they're making it an Us and Them and a judgment and it It was these little pockets of let's be a gang. It's easy to like come together against a common. Enemy I suppose and so it's not. Yeah exactly. I mean, we've all we've all been guilty of that. We've grown up, you know, everyone's been guilty at some point. I've seen something about someone to like get along with the person like that is also saying it no matter how old you were. I mean these cliques just they just exist everywhere daughter is so I think it's The best way that we can like as create those are just as anyone using social media the beacon deal with it as to put something better and to the world. Yeah, and I like that's like a lot of people continue seeing like social media is really harmful to me because I'm always comparing myself to other people ha ha ha everyone looks so perfect or has a perfect life and I'm like, well, what do you do Instagram people people look like oh you just putting up pictures of you on a Saturday night. Once you've had your hearing Complication. We don't know like why are you not putting up pictures or what? You look like on a Saturday morning after you've taken on your makeup or like not saying that everybody has to dance around in their pants or like taking you know, like so many pictures but but like why can you not share the Optics and downs online as well? Yeah because doubting that's encoding for you as well in getting those those kind milk- an inverted all those emotions and experiences open to what was actually really healing for you as well because it builds resilience and you you can acknowledge that things aren't perfect all the time and it makes you stronger to carry one. Yeah, but this is the kind of person who I mean again, we're all guilty of it. We're all guilty of following people and being like Oh, you know, I love everything about this person and I wish I was like this person and my life looks terrible. Harrison But ultimately, it's our responsibility to edit our feed so that we don't feel that way and if there's someone that you feel is just putting out Perfection Perfection Perfection all the time and you know, it's not real don't follow them anymore. Yeah, it's just it takes for emotionally intelligent person to recognize that they're having that reaction to that specific person. And yeah, but it just so happened that everybody fell to problems. Everybody's got something media and I'm a problem is it Nobody's talking about mental health some a lot of people aren't in touch with their feelings. Yeah happy we are not emotionally intelligent. So we don't understand the connection between the incident. No, you're right. I mean, I totally I lose sight of that sometimes because I am such a self development junkie and like almost every waking moment of the day. I am taking in something like podcasts or audiobooks. Even if it's like Memoirs. I love a good Memoir people just explaining. This is how I learned about myself and I'm like, I feel the Locust could possibly be when it comes to like my own mental. And when I talked to the people know like yeah, but what about this and I think but that's obvious but it's not because not everyone is done that I find that leak because I am part of the Mental Health Community online like a surrogate like because we really like yeah moving in the right direction. Everyone's so much more a weird me to heal and then I go back to my hometown and I realize oh, no, actually the general population is not talking about that. And they're not yeah, you know there may be there may be donating to mental health Charities or the seen celebrities and saying all that that's good that they've done that but they today they're not talking about mental health and they're not addressing it with occurred. So their Partners or for themselves, what's funny and I'll have to clear this with Lily before I put this out but I'm sure he's fine Lee and I were and I did talk about this on YouTube like copy is going to happen, but we were really struggling we first moved. I'm to the house with my parents which was like rough. It was a big adjustment and harder than we thought was going to be and we weren't really talking about it, but we were both like silently resentful. He was irritated that he felt like I'd put us in this position which was not the case but whatever, you know, it's all dealt with now, but he'd kind of you didn't know how to deal with his own feelings. And so he was like blaming me. I was blaming him for being so resentful and like what's the word when you like distance you distance? Himself, and anyway separately we were having our own like let's say A Mental Health crisis, and I went to the doctor and it took me forever. I'm not someone like I had my leg would be falling off and I'll be like I'm fine. Like I'm not I do not go to the doctor. Where is he is like a major had the contract. Anyway, the best of times he's got a standing appointment with the doctor. Where is I don't I never go so it took me ages and ages and ages. I finally went in and I was like all smiles and happy and whatever and I was Look, you know the problem is occasionally. I can't catch my breath. I feel like I have to lie down on the floor put my head out of the window. I just I don't know where it comes from. I'm feel like I had what I believe to be a panic attack at work because I couldn't do either of those things and I was in a stall in the the toilet and I absolutely could not and I felt like I was like like wasn't going to be able to breathe. Anyway explained all of these things him and he said everyone's got anxiety now and if you feel like you can't breathe then you panic and you can't really even more so you just need to keep that tape. Deep breaths and I was like, yep. Okay, no problem, and I closed the door and burst into tears and I think part of this was that I couldn't I couldn't be honest about how bad it was and I went in with like a everything's fine facade. And so he probably thought everything was fine. He probably from his perspective. He probably couldn't really diagnose that because I didn't I didn't really give him the truth. How can you recall talking about You were focusing on the physical symptoms are so you were worried that it was like her like a physical concern because I know not all I I did think it was some kind of anxiety in that and I've said this to people so many times like if you already know what if you want to think you know what it is. Don't tell them telling me that I can't what do you think it is? Like I would never go in saying I think I know what's wrong with me because I think immediately they'll be like, well, it's not that so I went exactly exactly but in that instance because I knew I couldn't break down in front of him. I did say look for the first time in my life. I'm really struggling with what I think is anxiety from the immediately. Not you ate separately. I didn't know this but separately Lee went to the doctors and he said he was struggling to breathe. He's got asthma and he was struggling to breathe. He was like freely. Lynn like having dizzy spells very things and he said what was it perhaps something asthmatic related. He's basically always convinced he's going to die anyway, so this wasn't he didn't go in thinking it was mental health related. He did go in thinking it was a physical thing and he came away with a mild dose of antidepressant that is still on now and I was like what like a don't understand. I'll buy this point. I we could kind of joke about it, but we were each struggling with this. Like separately didn't talk about it. I mean the the issue that he was he was given something and I wasn't I kind of struggle with cuz I'm like, is it a male-female thing that I mean truly I didn't need it. Whereas I do think he had something on diagnose that was just discovered that way that he perhaps did need that long term, but I didn't I didn't everything was kind of resolved with me, and I'm fine now and you know, his finds anyone can be but it does make me wonder because we weren't prepared to talk to me. What about it at the time but you I'm so aware of mental health. He's so aware of mental health. We're both on social media people talk about it all the time and yet we still didn't want to talk about it until you experience it yourself mental illness is very much like the other and people because I didn't experience that until obviously the mid-20s and and I just always thought like, oh I can't you just do the things. That you know you need to do to get better more like what exercise or take your medication or why are you this person drinking to get drunk every weekend when they know it makes them feel bad be don't know until you're in that position how overwhelming the feeling is and who you're not in control of yourself. You're not in control of your mating and you can you can't make the Practical decisions because you're just not so until Until a lot of the fortunately tell you experience at your sale. There's only so much understanding that you can half of what it feels like and it's a weird thing of like when you like either late have made to be don't you go back and try and Trace like what caused it? What like who can I blame? What did I do wrong? But it's such a it's such a leak. Strange concoction of lots of different things like it's never dwell in my experience. Not just one thing because like I don't listen to a lot of show claim podcast and and there's that whole thing of like all those kids had the perfect topping perfect parents really like what steel color? Yeah, but then there's this other kid to was in he was sexually abused in he he was abandoned and him he'd started drinking alcohol when he was 10 years old and he does Few killer, but you can like obviously there's lots of things that can go wrong in someone's life. But some people go through a traumatic childhood and it go out on to be like these amazing people live on in chat at ease while in business. He's like and so it's impossible to kind of pinpoint how you're going to react to things and how so much of it as your your physical self and your genes and how much has Environmental For me, it seems to be entirely genetic. I mean that's you know my comp. I mean, I don't mean that you know, you're right. You're gonna be all you're not going to be obviously you have to have like a certain whatever events but given what we know like you say, but one person or two people can have the same experience but go off in completely different directions. There has to be a something in you when you're born that this could happen. Like I know I feel that alcoholism it. I know that's like Up For Debate, but it is a Take trade in my one side of my family. It's like very prevalent through many many many generations and it just you can't get away from these people Nest didn't even necessarily come into contact with each other. They didn't raise each other and yet some families don't struggle at all with addiction and some you can't you can't deny the trail through the family tree. Yeah. So definitely runs like a mental illness runs in my family. it's something that stays on my mind a lot over the last few years and I wrote an article for ages and I interviewed students who have kids with mental illness and I interviewed a psychotherapist to find out if it was genetic because I am not plan on having kids but it's always played on my mind of like if I don't have a kids with are basically be given them this life sentence of depression and anxiety and what the It comes of that kind of research was especially from talking to us I could have but it was basically there's so many factors at play. That genetics are just like 1% of the sure and if you have gotten into Elvis and you as appealing I've taken steps to manage that and you've got these tools that you know, what for you whether its energy or medication or talking about your feelings or Yoga, whatever. You know what you do in your emotionally intelligent like were talking about earlier. Then she argued that you are actually in a better place to be he didn't than someone who's had none of that stuff. So someone who's not had the tables mental illness may not actually know how to manage their emotions that will and they may not know how to manage their child's emotions. And so she was saying that if you've had a mental illness has been diagnosed and you've kind of learn to deal with it. Your kid does have a mental illness. You're literally the best person for the job. Yeah, you've had to do that work that other people haven't and you may even prevent that from from getting these issues because you're so kind of willing to talk to them when things go wrong or talk about feeling or not being the best in class or being sad or get in a better position to kind of have those conversations. Mmm. Now that's that's a really interesting point because like you say you always worry if you've got something like again because it's the only comparison that I have. I wonder like old basic throughout my childhood. I was told there are addicts in the family and this is something that you need to be aware of. I remember when I started drinking. My dad would have said to me, you know, you need to be careful because these think that you know, these things can happen and I wonder because I'm very aware of my own drinking. I don't think that I drink to excess but I am like so hyper aware that almost like weekly, I'm like reassessing. How much did I drink this week? Should I have don't last and it's not a problem in my life at all. It's not something that I crave. It's not something that I have to do. It's definitely a habit but it's not something that I feel like is an issue at all and yet I'm waiting for it to be a problem and from that perspective if you know that there is a history of depression in your family. Are you just is it like a ticking Time Bomb do you? Expect that's going to happen. And could it be like a self-fulfilling prophecy? See? I think the fact that your dad have a conversation with you as I think of what I was talking about like he he could have just ignored it, but he actually did some really must be a really difficult thing to talk about. Yeah, I mean to clarify he's personally not an alcoholic but it's something that you know was prevalent in the family. But so he decided that he needed to do about it. But yeah, yeah. After I had hit rock bottom. Mmm. So I think having the conversations with people just openly like not telling people what to do actually talking about, you know, this is what I went through or this person went through it will let you see like know you're aware of it. Mmm. I am but it does maybe you were kept in check. Yeah. No, you're probably right. It is something that maybe the I'd maybe if I had never known about it, and I would have gone off the rails. but because of it, but I don't know these I think this is the thing that concerns me the people that I knew that did it could go for months and months and months completely dry, but couldn't just have a drink one drink and that was like days lost and so I remember Chelsea Handler who I find fascinating for many reasons. She said in a podcast that every now and then she'll have a detox and she does it because she will get to a point where she feels like she's drinking too much and she never wants to have to give it up. And so she recognized this is an interesting way of dealing with the problem. I think she recognizes that it could become a problem but because she still wants to be able to do it. She stops before it becomes a problem. So kind of reset the habits and I've spoken about this before and people who don't enjoy drinking at all. Like my husband doesn't drink really like maybe like twice a year. He does not enjoy alcohol whatsoever. So to him I probably seem like an alcoholic a glass of wine, but to other people I'll talk about it and they'll go well, why would you possibly like if that was something that you're concerned about? Why would you drink because I like it. Yeah, you can I can't not drink on the basis that maybe one day you'll be an alcoholic. It's like thing. You can lie. You can't leave the house on the off chance that a car meant the pavement and kept shooting leak and I get you know, it's not an essential part of being but it is a part. It's something that I think about all the time because of that and I think that's like I totally understand why people like if there was a way that you could prevent having a mental health Issue because you knew it was hereditary and you just chose not to I get it. It's just it just just kind of always comes to my mind because I talked about it quite frequently and I get like a real mix of like I said something about being dry for Christmas before Christmas and lots of people were like that's ridiculous. And then other people were like, why would that even be hard you're old you're coming from like your judgment or bias? I've like this drunk from drinking because I was very good at spatial but I was felt very very known for a long time. And I'd like to just kind of feel something so it'd make me happy for a while and then I would have liked. For who relapse and be out the game for like a week and that went on for the first few months when I was off work and it was the doctor that said, you know, you don't medication you really need to write as excuse me. So urgently to stop Drinkin and a nice guy was he talking for almost over a year and and that was like a big deal. Yeah social cycle because everybody like that. So we socialize And I that point I thought I'll never I'll never drink again because it just it just was starting to get sore some sort of hand, but then eventually I kind of brought it back into my life, but I know know that when like it's kind of like social media so sometimes I drink when I'm happy, but sometimes I don't want plans like other think everybody going to go through that let you drink to kind of deal with whatever's going on in that moment. So bright glad that you brought it back to the right topic. So yeah, I think I have to be aware of why I'm drunker and it comes back to that emotional intelligence can thing of like why am I drinking and then so the last year after my book came out? I had it has become and like maybe you'll agree. Like I had this bag bag that after my book chemo time like all I got this thing that I wanted, but I'm still the same person. Yes, but he didn't fulfill all my hopes and dreams why so I felt very sad and that came out from under the guise of yes. I'm not in the same way as Chelsea Handler I could see it was getting a hand but I knew that I was going to stop so I knew I'm going to drink too much when they and we got feels so awful that I'm not at all give up drinking for the wheel. Yeah, that's what happened. I had an eight over. I just drank far far far too. But yeah, and then I didn't drink really much over Christmas and New Year at all. So I definitely go through the sequence of Yeah, and it too hard and then be certain yeah, I completely identified that I don't actually enjoy drink it like I do the social aspect. I don't actually enjoy drinking outside of the house. I don't enjoy being drunk and I'm massively because I'm like an extrovert at the minute. I am in a social setting. I'm like off the wall like bananas. Like if you put me in a room with three people and five minutes that you came about you two thought I'd done like a line of coke or they're like nothing I've ever done a line of coke people think you're yes, and I think that I completely identified just before Christmas. This is the problem like this is why I have alcohol anxiety because I actually it's nothing to do with the alcohol because I can have one drink and then I'm like, I'm high as a kite and it's got nothing to do with the alcohol. It's because I'm in that social setting and that everyone thinks I'm wasted and I hate that that is like my nightmare. Is the next day I wake up thinking. Oh my God, my mom said this to me before because she's very similar to me that she will have been driving and she'll go to work on Monday and everyone's like, oh my God, you know Jane you were you were out of it you you were so drunk and she's like, I drove three people home. Like I didn't have a drop of alcohol. But it people think that you are like a full-on I couldn't fall on drunk because that's how you behave and that I like to have like a glass of wine in the evening. At home or like a beer or whatever or like if I'm going out for tea or something, then I'll maybe like have a beer or some whatever but I don't enjoy other people seeing me drink. It's it all comes back to like the social aspect and other people's how they feel. Yeah, because I can do it very very close friends. But like at a Christmas party for example, not fun. Not fun at all. But that's like that that is a major thing because I did developed. Collins idea I would say or what I would call that a couple of years ago and it wasn't until Christmas that I went. Oh, this is what it is. I'm not doing that. So I don't have to give it up. I just need to choose when I do it. Yeah when you do, yeah, but anyway, it's got nothing to do with what we're supposed to be talking about. It was helpful for me because I had basically opened this door until what all chill people who got how I felt and that was just so important to me and I don't realize how important it was until I bought it because I was getting the help from adult time. Talk to a counselor. I was getting like practical support as and like help with money and stuff on that Pier that's on me until I had all that kind of stuff on paper that you need to kind of survive, but I wasn't getting that validation from other people that look what I was going through was. Was normal, but also sure yeah, so especially once you start to play once you've come out of the darkest part and the kind of Crisis Point everybody around you kind of just once you to be okay, so when you have a bad day or a bad week everyone's about like all this again, so having people on social media to talk to but like the intricacies of deal like living with depression anxiety. If you anyways almost all going and just such a support like having having somebody sit calmly, I feel like that like we were saying like I feel like that when I'm hungover psychosis or all I get anxiety from being on the shoulder all these little things that other people want can meet you feel like you are not crazy. Yeah completely. So it is it is a community that can be of a massive massive help like you'd said originally what are you looking for when you pick up your phone like when I first First started like I never had Facebook, but I was a super early adopter. Like I had friends annoyed with me that I wouldn't join Facebook and this was like why like, why don't I don't care about this at all. And so I was a really light a doctor Facebook anyway, and then all I ever used to do was take pictures or night out and then like the next day. I was used to be able to put like 60 pictures up a time or something. Oh my God, it is like my entire next day was posting pictures on but what I when I then kind of discovered proper social media, like as we know it now. It was all through YouTube and what I wanted from that was engagement. I was lonely. I was home all day. I was out of work. I wanted a hobby and the people commenting like I was that it was a drug. It was like I was making videos multiple times a day. I couldn't wait for someone to like, I was watching The View counts that I remember so vividly the first person ever commented on one of my videos was called hell of 79 and she used to come in quite frequently. Lee and she would ask for certain things and that is such a rush it's the engagement from people that we are looking from looking for rather and then if we don't get it that's what brings us down. Yeah, and I think the point I kind of make as well but if you're if you are like kind of fulfilled and life and you've got and you've got friends to socialize where can people go to the park west and you probably don't need social media for that, but the people that are turning to social media for Support other people who are isolated. So as like people have got anxiety and depression or unemployed or like new mums because they feel like victoire get along with anyone other than the baby and that's the people that are reaching out and it's I personally think it's helpful for that as long as I kind of stepping stone and to feel life that make sense and to manage your expectations because I've had so many people in the past. I mean not so many but a few people in the past who have liked commented on something and I haven't immediately responded. I tried to respond to a lot of stuff but you know, it gets to a point where you can't and some people take it really really badly and you kind of just have to take a step back with stuff like that. And remember it's got nothing to do with you like that person needed me to Respond for whatever reason it really didn't matter why they needed me to respond, but they really needed me to respond and I didn't and they were angry because they needed me to respond. They weren't angry because I didn't respond. It wasn't anything. They're not angry with me. Although they cook. They might think that they are they're angry because they didn't get from me what they expected and when you open social media, if you expect something then that's often when you're disappointed. Yeah, I think a lot of like that. What you want you will allow people to take from you. Like if you can't be annoyed at people what in quick responses if you will actually respond with him facing and so everybody who comments because then they'll come to expect that. Yeah, so you kind of have to say expectations with other people that you're not going to you're not going to do that because I have a lot a few friends who are in the social media not socially the Mental Health Community and they get a lot of people increases and and that I made it crystal clear from the word go that that's not what I'm here for. No, you can't ignore that. You'd have to be on your phone 24/7. Exactly. And if you if you start engaging with those people and kind of like making them rely on you then they're not getting the real help that they need not said he can't point someone to Citizens and that's really tough because obviously in a situation like that. I mean, I'm not a mental health blogger or you know, I'm not I'm not a source for that all and yeah, I for sure have received messages where I've been like, oh my God, but you can't ignore that. I can't I have to respond but you make a good point that once you do you are then opening yourself up to you are then the point of contact and I'm I'm not I guess not and you can feel that sense of responsibility, but I think most of us know that we shouldn't be reaching out to Influencers for mental health help. Yeah, but then like you say if that again it all comes back to why you're there and what you want from these people like it's very very rare for me to find someone that I'm following on Instagram and comment or message them. I just I tend to be like more of a passive consumer of content. Like if it's something that comes up and I want it like if I leave a comment I never expect a response. Like I think I think they'll read it. Otherwise, I won't leave the comment. I think they'll see it. But I know that most people don't respond to all the comments and they'll read it. And that's all I'm just putting it out there. That is like I did him and I do TV a little while ago saying that it was all about like when you leave a comment you are either it is a reaction this this got me into some trouble because people were angry that I said this but so we'll see but I said, it's either a reactions your Acting to the thing that the person put out there or you are wanting a reaction. So if that doesn't necessarily that's not necessarily a negative thing. I think people took it that way but like if you put out a picture and it was no picture of coffee or something. I might say something in reaction like, oh my God, I really need a cup of coffee or I might say. Oh, I really want a cup of coffee. What are you drinking? There are two different things that you want from social media. You are either reacting. So you scroll. Are you liking or commenting or you're commenting expecting something? It's like yeah, I think if you are wanting a reaction then the one you need to manage the expectation that not every single time you're gonna get it. But also you need to edit down your feed two people who give that like bigger you say people who are available for that kind of Engagement. I'm just plague FF you're constantly looking to social media for Supporter or let you see your reaction, I think that's that's a different issue. But yeah, I hope you get that externally because if someone - it's like if someone took your phone away from you mmm, they've taken away your coping mechanism. Yeah, so, how can you get that from other places? Yeah, you make a good point because I'm like, well, it's not really a big deal because you know it as long as you've curated your own little community of people who are all happy to talk to each other but like you say offline. Then we'll know what it's like when I'm sick. I'm Costa and yeah, like the world is it was interesting in Italy when the line? Oh, you know again, I'm coming at this from like a creative perspective and like within that bubble, but I know that I see a lot of people complaining about like engagement and reach and all this stuff and I frequently think nobody needs like people talking about engagement and reach on social media the people following you are not or bloggers not everybody cares about how your engagement is terrible on Instagram most of those people. Balaji for your content, they don't care about your complaints with the with the platform that you're using. So I'm like just stop anyway, but once Instagram took away the likes the number of people I saw on Twitter saying like what's the point? It's everybody else like just not going to use Instagram anymore. Like so what why were you using it? What was the point of Instagram if they take away likes and suddenly you're not interested anymore. That is a big deal. That's very telling. Yeah. It's not like they're taking away your ability to post a picture now. They've taken away nothing else and piece of this, huh? Yeah, I'm from the back end. You can still see how many people have liked the picture so it is actually purely status. Which is really interesting and that is coming from people who put stuff out there that is not even people who are relying on like you would you kind of Imagine That from the creators perspective. They have it together and they're putting bit. You know, that's not true because they are putting that stuff out there again for a reaction or to react everyone put something on the Internet everyone shares anything on the Internet is doing one of those two things and it's Look like I got 400 should I talk about this? I'll say yes don't care. Nobody cares. Let's do not care as a consumer of content know as a consumer of content. Do you care that other people can't see like you can still like a picture if you want to like a picture you have not taken away the double tap because like you say muscle memory that would like we'd all go to pieces if we couldn't double tap on a picture. Yeah, like nothing's happening. We just be double tapping on something for no reason and bottled as a consumer of content. It makes absolutely no difference to me that you have taken away the likes and I know that they haven't done this for the good. I'm sure they're somehow monetizing this feature that they've taken away. I know they haven't done it for a mental health, but I think it's a good thing. I think that people will be more inclined to just go back to using Instagram the way they used to and it's going to be less status driven and less You know if I would have found a way to make status because it will then be about comments and thieves and shares and okay, I think they're not taken away. Imagine. It took at least follower can imagine I mean on YouTube the beginning of a few months ago, they started rounding up subscriber counts, which is very interesting because it used to be like you could follow someone's subscribers. Like minute. I'm in a second by second, you know, when all the cancel culture stuff happened last year and thing with James Charles and tati and people would have liked videos of his subscribers dropping. Like Moment by moment, and now it's I think it rounds up to a hundred or a thousand depending on how massive your account is, but now they round it and that's a really interesting thing because it then becomes like you're not focused on oh that person lost or that person gained or so. It seems like these little tiny things are coming in place for the greater good which is why I think ports cast as quick as we can. It was a podcast hands or how many lessons we've had. You can only see them in the charts. Yeah, you don't know about changes aren't clever. You don't really know exactly the fuckers behind that which is why I think was I guess I've stolen the kingdom early stages of podcast or everyone does have one know they're still it still came up their game to anyone. I mean from a validation like junkie perspective. It's a nightmare because like I want to see the subscriber count. I want to see like I don't even know if we can see how many people do subscribe to the podcast. No, I don't think I don't think there is as you pay for I think there's something some people right not by default, but you just have to trust that people are enjoying it people are listening. You see how many people download it and listen and all that but like I really struggled in previous ones that I've done and I will would be doing something similar with this one. Well, I needed a comment section and if without the comment section, why are we like how do you know what people thought the engagement? It's purely a one shaded can actually to process and it's something I really enjoy but I totally because of because I so enjoy Instagram and YouTube for that instant engagement. It's something that I'll put it out there and then I'm just like waiting. which is kind of what I Experience with my book came out. I don't feel the same but nobody reads it on the first day now all this is the craziest thing is that you like bright and I mean I suppose it's the same with like when you've written for Publications like, you know, it's been published and then all day you just like it's like waiting by the phone. It's someone going to comment on this it's not I really really miss that instant engagement with something but what I did previously and like I say we'll do with this is on our Instagram feed I will have like our post episode and I'm like, please just leave a comment and tell me what you look like. I need I need the gunman. I need you to tell me, you know, good or bad you need it is it it is it I've been kind of indoctrinated by the many platforms. I've used that have been comment driven the van. I think it's quite Good because she get like good if you really love getting comments and stuff on YouTube and you make not saying you have but hypothetically mate fall into that trap of just creating what people want. There's of the podcast at least. Yeah, you could you kind of don't know what people want. So you just have to make something that you want to make. Yeah, you totally right and to be quite honest what happened last year with Instagram for me was I everyone complains? Is about Instagram and then no one's seen this know one thing that I was like, you know what I don't care anymore and I'm just going to post stuff that I enjoy posting. I'm not going to worry about a feed. I'm just going to start and the growth I saw was insane. I it was great. It was just crazy because suddenly I didn't care and I was just posting things that I liked and initially that is what we all do. That's how we gain Traction in the first place. If you're not passionate about the thing then it translates and everyone's like are they just phoning it in there just doing the thing. They think they should be doing instead. Of the thing that they enjoy yeah, and that passion for it in the first place is why people? That's why people come to you. I know that's why the people that I do fall on social media that give me she want the sir. She's a mommy blogger in New York and her photos are amazing. She's got like a million kids. They're all immaculately dressed. All super colorful is she's just got what appears to be the most amazing life and I couldn't be more jealous occasionally. She'll post something still a really cute picture but the caption will be like a bit real life, but she is one of the people that I follow but one hopefully our pictures are Do you have a Pang of ah, like oh, the life unlived liked what I could have been me, but I so enjoy her content that I can just kind of put that into a different perspective for myself of like this is entertainment. This is not real life. This is someone that I'm coming to for like escapism the same as I would watch TV, it's not someone I can possibly compare myself to we're in a different phase of life or in different countries. It's not the same and I think you can take from social media pure entertainment so long as you Which off that I should be doing this part of your brain, which is difficult. Yeah, it's kind of like sit tiny sphere. As a piece of are almost like that's been created of what lytics on that let you don't watch Ocean's Eleven and be like, why are you not part of things? Why am I not robbing more casinos, but like, you know, you would follow Jennifer Aniston and no one's looking to Jennifer Aniston's Instagram. Like I should be in more movies exactly. There has to be I know I was talking about the invisible line that's not there. But I think you can put up that barrier between you and people who live lives. Lives that are so far removed like you can't relate if you really enjoy their content. You can still enjoy that as long as you put it in a different category. Yeah. But thank you for being our first proper guest. I'm really excited about it. But yeah, thank you so much and I will talk a little bit about you when you're gone. I mean really how fantastic is Fiona you can and you should follow her everywhere. She's Fiona likes to blog on Instagram and Fiona likes on Twitter. We've actually never spoken before although we've chatted online and so as it usually is with the first conversation, We did get off topic in parts and I was always super Rambler. I always am but Fiona was a really good sport as our first proper guest. I am not well educated on the subject of mental health as you can probably tell and so hopefully Fiona managed to steer you in a better Direction and dilute my ignorance a little bit. So apologies if I kind of spoke out of turn but it really is not my wheelhouse that's why Fiona was such a great guest this week. I don't want to as I've said in previous episodes. I don't want to speak on something that I don't feel comfortable. Really knowledgeable about but it was a topic that I wanted to address. I understand that anxiety and depression is a spectrum and it can affect different people in totally different ways over the next few months. I'm hoping to have on different guests who can demonstrate that and if you have a story that you'd like to share you can contact us on Instagram at calling all friends dot pod. I have so enjoyed connecting with people in this way. And especially when we're talking about something like this the more voices in the conversation the better and the DM conversations that we've had have been really I mean at times humorous and at times just very very interesting. I've gained so much good from social media myself that I just can't see it as a bad thing not like a totally bad thing. Anything can be bad in the wrong hands or used in the wrong way. So remember that you have control over your social feeds and if something isn't serving you or Worse still if it is negatively affecting you then just remove it as Fiona said it is not always that simple, but you do have some amount of responsibility to take stock of how you're spending your time online. And regularly assess how it's making you feel if you feel like you need to take a break take it if you want to do away with it all together and you feel like you can do that then do it. But if you choose to continue to scroll make sure you're only following people who add value to your day. And like I said, you can categorize those things. It could be that someone you really enjoy but they kind of bring you down a little bit when you consider that they're like you and they're supposed to be relatable just consider them to be more entertaining, you know, you don't compare yourself to like real famous people or massively. I'm just gonna hear Money snoring in the background. So if that's picking up but he is totally the most asleep. He's ever been is the loudest snoring dog in the world. He's a frog a combination between a Frenchie and a Pug and his snores are he can't sleep in our bedroom. There's no way anyway, they can't even remember what I was talking about. But make sure you're only following people who make you feel good is generally the takeaway. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. Don't forget to subscribe. So you don't miss an episode share with your friends and if you're feeling A rest and you are enjoying the show why not leave us a review on iTunes that would be fun tastic. If you want to get involved with a future show follow us on Instagram at calling all friends dot pod and look out for the questions and calls for comment in the stories. The voice notes are my favorite part of the show. They're probably yours to the voice notes on the calls make this Me by myself who cares and with subjects like this. They are absolutely essential. Thanks again to Fiona for joining us this week. You can find her book depression in the digital age on Amazon and look out for her next one coming out this first I will speak to you again next week.
HUGE Thanks as always to everyone involved in this episode but special thanks to Fiona Thomas for generously donating her time to chat about her specialist subject and allow me to interrupt and steam roll at every turn. It's a learning curve for someone who is used to being the only one talking to a  camera!! Please check out Fiona's current book (I've read it and can personally endorse its contents) and stay tuned for her brand new offering this summer! 