I would say perfect hair perfect here. Yeah, okay, I would say some sort of dangly jewelry the verified symbol and it's Graham. I would say he uses terms like believe in the Victory. And finally I would say celebrity Pastor has genes that are skinnier than his theology. Nope. Welcome to biblical engines a podcast that explores the how and why of living as a Christian in a pop culture World movies art people. Everything is Up For Debate and nothing is held back in each episode. We explore a topic through conversation banter and the Bible to try and get to the truth of the matter. We're not pastors or Scholars. We're just regular Christians trying to understand the world through lenses of the Bible. In this episode we're talking about celebrity pastures, which is a topic right for comedy. We're going to dig in and do the thought work, but we're also going to have some fun. Maybe at people's expense stay tuned. Today we're talking about celebrity pastors and I wanted to start out. I read an article Relevant Magazine and the title of the article caught my eye because it said James McDonald and the end of the celebrity Pastor. So just in the last day or two James McDonald who is one of the he was the head pastor of Harvest Bible Church. He got accused of a number of things I guess over years and sweeping them under the rug. Also the Elders of the church, I think maybe sweeping them under the rug and so he was fired as the head pastor and I just want to read a couple quotes out of the article because I think they're pretty they touch on a lot of things we're going to talk about today when it comes to celebrity pastors. So here's what the author of the article said the entertainment industry became the focal point of American culture and a growing number of churches began operating like a brand with the pastor acting as the focal celebrity and this has led to a phenomenon we call celebrity. Pastors a phrase that should ring alien to all of us a celebrity Pastor is a brand and a brand doesn't take action against itself. That would be antithetical to its entire existence Brands survive because they deflect damage they control the narrative accountability is bad for Brands and lastly this article said the celebrity Pastor is a failed experiment. No one. What's your thoughts on that? Yeah. It's it's always hard when you hear about a pastor that is In the Limelight that has had a moral failure. It's hard when you hear of any Pastor that's had a moral failure happens, too often. Yeah, I think one especially one that is seen by not only Christians but non-christians alike, right and that's that's always hard for us. I do think it's notable to point out that you know, we aren't here to throw dirt on anybody absolutely say that say that MacArthur, you know is like, I don't think Going to be passing Judgment at all. That's not even really what we're gonna be talking about today, you know, obviously if they are true the accusations, I mean, he's definitely a man that has had a failure but just like as any man who has had a failure. I think it's good that we surround him and Grace and love and show him that you know, super important like that. Jesus is all about Redemption but to that note because yeah because if we can't do that right just and we're going to talk a lot about this. I feel like in this podcast but like, you know, Who are highlighted as people like leaders like Christian leaders who fall right? Whoo-hoo something happens in their life, and they are in error. If we don't have Grace for them. Like how can we expect the Lord to have Grace with us? Like it's really important that we walk into this and I even debated about like reading the article because it mentioned his name, but it does have a lot less to do with him and more to do with an exploration. Of the celebrity Pastor thing whether it's working or not working. Yep. Yeah. That's why the true. Yeah, you know and I think celebrity pastors is it's just a funny topic. Let's okay before we go. What is a Celebrity Fashion except in your best like your best like description. What is the celebrity? You know what I think it's somebody who's honestly like he's got to have some ripped jeans in his in his wardrobe Panache. He's got at least be talking from a Table from a small circular table. Okay where he's got, you know a couple of different things on it all branded 45-degree Pulpit no longer acceptable. Yeah, no longer acceptable to God you just a flat 90 degree. It's like you walked into like a coffee shop. Yep, where they make really good cold brew or over? Yep somehow. Yeah and you just caught him in the middle of a Devo and as IP yeah. Oh, yeah for sure. Okay. Yeah for sure you are going to see a celebrity pastors with an Instagram account like you are. Going to find them on some sort of social media and that's and that's just the that's the that's the world that we live in now everybody has an inscription. Everybody has an Instagram Nolan that's very job. There would be verified on Instagram. You can have the little blue check and a half of the blue check mark. Okay, so all silliness aside like I would say like a celebrity Pastor is just somebody who has a very high level of notoriety popular. It could be very well could be because of the things that they say are true to the word, you know, and we're About there's a lot of there's a lot of I follow a couple of celebrity pass. There's nothing wrong with them right like necessarily. I don't think there's I'm gonna put my cards on the table. I don't there may not necessarily be anything wrong with being a pastor who people take a lot of people take note of because of your faithful service and work for the kingdom. Yeah, but if you wear velvet boots it could I do you remember when we went to yes don't even say it. But we went to a conference Levi. Let's go. Oh don't tell me if he's wearing because they were beautiful. He wasn't he was kind of disappointed. But okay he wasn't you win. Time and I will you just timed out a levite a logo, but that's something I like Pastor Liao. Let's go. He's great man. He's awesome. He can preach the word. Okay. Sorry, we're gonna get back to it. Let's I mean, so that is a celebrity Pastor somebody with notoriety some with popularity. Someone that people listen to they have a following of sorts maybe social media, but just in general when people say like hey, what are you listening to somebody might say? Oh, I heard a sermon from dot dot dot from such-and-such a pastor because everything is podcasting. And and youtubed and it just out there on the web, right so heavily followed. Okay, Kenosha. Can we just talk about the job like the Jambi crisping really quick course, if you haven't watched out there if you haven't watched or heard of John be Crist great comedian super funny dude, lots of funny sketch stand-up and sketch humor, but we encourage you to listen to or watch his celebrity Pastor draft video and he actually got a lot of trouble for it that people gave him a lot of flack. It's basically a sketch about like fantasy football. Ball but instead of football it's celebrity pastors and they're all commenting on the pastor's sweet like jokes or like amazing hair and like how they're all drafting the pastor's I just think that's super funny. Of course you get in trouble for it, but he got in trouble, you know who got in trouble what what Christians yeah, people are just like upset they like they couldn't understand the humor behind it. He had to come out and make another like series of like Instagram videos or whatever saying now, we're not trying to like dogon people here. We're trying to make we're trying to be silly about their suits. You know like and he's even saying like he's friends with a lot of them and they even call them upset. That was really funny John right but like he's able to poke fun at the whole celebrity and I think I mean like I think that can be a good segue into just the topic at hand is that I think a lot of us or a lot of Christians will will get very defensive because they feel that that Pastor is very endearing to them, right, you know, you might come out and say something about you know, whoever like Billy Graham or whatever and then also and it's like well that Has had a you know has had a fundamental role in shaping and changing my biblical lens on my bill Cole worldview. Let's get one or get real confessional right now. If who is the pastor right now that if somebody was to say something bad about you might ask the Holy Spirit if it was okay to punch them in the throat. Whoo. Wait, are you saying personally personally, if somebody came up and said this celebrity Pastor, what a what a garbage heap what he such trash who would you go to her? A shirt for sure Matt Chandler. Okay. That's your go-to. I would go to bat for matching why I just he is he is a man. That is very knowledgeable. I believe he got it. He teaches straight from the Bible. God is very like logical driven. Yeah, and I just love that he is that guy that like is willing to tell anybody no matter if the present United States sure you're an idiot. You need to change your life and give your life to Jesus Christ. That's yeah. Absolutely. Matt Chandler is I list I love that challenge teachings solid teacher of the word also. What I need to get yelled at. Yeah, I feel like I'm going to tune in a pasture map because he's gonna do me right, you know, he's for sure gonna call know he's gonna yell at you little bit mine Ravi Zacharias. Oh if you spoke badly and he's not even a pastor as much as a Christian leader and Scholar, but if you talk bad about Ravi, oh, I'm one of our friends Amber did you so one of our friends Amber was telling us about was telling me about a about Robbie B&B and I hire yeah because of the yeah, but if you talk bad about Ravi today, I I might I might I might pray against you. I might ask you to wither up like a picture like that's my pizza. You don't want because I feel like he should be my like the Indian grandfather to my children. Yeah, like he's such a amazing. I want them to come out just be like you want some more tea. So yeah. Okay so cards on the table Nolan and I we have people like we have pastors that we respect and we follow of course and like you said like it. Hurt us. If somebody said something about a pastor that we find to be rich, like like worthy of respect that being said are the celebrity pastors that you think are not worthy of respect and let's I don't know. What should we call them by name or she would come up with great nicknames for them. I don't know. I don't know if I can come up with a nickname of the spot. I have a nickname for one that I feel like I'm gonna call I'm just gonna say I'm gonna call him teeth. That's that's my nickname. I know exactly, you know, exactly I'm talking about I'm just gonna call him teeth. I'm not a fan of teeth. Yeah, so that's mine. I'm going to call the the guy that saw me and you would think about the same about teeth. Okay, but the German that I'm thinking about I would call him spikes when we first got started like his hair was. Oh I know exactly who you're talking about. Spiky spikes. Yeah, that's great for the 90s grunge. That's cool. Okay, so we also have some that we don't approve of yeah now, Let's now we're going to get to the Crux of the issue. Okay, what do we think about celebrity pastors? There's some good right? There's some that maybe it's a responsibility. It's a Spider-Man issue great power great responsibility coming but like there's some that don't ya so, what do we think about this idea of celebrity passers? Yeah. Gosh, it's it's so hard because for me, I think that it's it's a it's an inevitability that you are going to if you are a good preacher. Or a good you know speaker. You're going to have people that are going to follow you. I mean we see this with many different pastors, but we also see it with politicians, you know, SE I mean even Barack Obama was always hailed for his, you know, his all his features and they were always so succinct and it's a great Obama depression. I think very much. I'm very proud of that. I've never been more proud of you than just right now. I didn't know you could do impression. You know, we really enjoy people that can speak very well and I mean Paul speaks. This topic all the time, you know when he's talking to different churches saying like hey beware of those that speak, you know, oh my gosh, I'm going to completely butcher this but basically just saying like hey beware of those that have good speech that I very convincing because they're always of what their speech but the speech ends up being Halo, right? That's a summary please don't quote us exactly but it does say that but I mean like and that's and that's where I think like as a pastor you realize if you're a good speaker. You will draw a following just like Paul did just like Peter did just like Jesus did But it comes with a you know, just like the Peter Parker like, you know with great power comes great responsibility like you have this great thing. It also means that you have a lot more pressure on you to now like read your word know what it says to proclaim the word of God and preacher with with all convictions. So speaking of pressure like so that's like a nice wet like can you serve God as effective as effectively from a place of fame or does the pressure become too much like the scrutiny on you become too much. So let mean little little back story right like Nolan I have served in Ministry together. We've served in youth ministry. We have you know, I've been a I've been in on staff Pastor like no one was like my number two like my dude in charge. So like we've done this before and and as you rise in not in like popularity, that's not what I want to say. But as you become like more recognizable, there's a scrutiny put on you. There's a pressure that's put on you. Not to perform. I don't want to see perform. But to be more pastoral right and to always to always be walking in Holiness and the Bible clearly says that like we all like sheep have gone astray. So what do we do about the spiritual superheroes with the capes fluttering In The Wind that everyone goes he's perfect. He's amazing. I wish I could wish I could be like Ravi. I wish I could be like pastor Matt like like what do we do about those areas? Because as much as I love Ravi, I know that somewhere he's a he's deep down. Synonym that he that he does things that are not in accordance with the will of God. He has to otherwise he's he's the Messiah like he's and I know that's just not true. Right? Well, I mean I think like there's there's got to be a level of there's gotta be a level of recognition in your own self that your heart is wicked above all else. You know, I mean, I always could I always heard the story from my mom just she really respected Billy Graham that we that was definitely her like, you know Pinnacle as far as like the pastor goes right, but you know, she really respected Billy. I am and she would tell me all the time like, you know, when he would go on tour, he would have his security detail or whoever his you know, people were that were traveling with him and they would go into hotel rooms before him. They would make sure that any cuz people would legitimately like drop-off like porn inside of Billy Graham's hotel room trying to trip him up trying to make him like, you know fall as a Christian and so he'd have these people go in and whatever was in there remove it and then he would Always make sure that somebody was with him when he was in a hotel room. He was never by himself. You know, he took great measure to make sure that he was always following what God wanted to do. So that's to my point right like Can it can you serve God from a place of Fame as effectively like really like as wholeheartedly as you want to because there's so many things now tripping you up. There's so many things like and if you fall from grace, oh my gosh you Influence People in such a negative way. Is that a better model than than what I would see as like the Great Commission Jesus sending out the ones and twos to go make ones and twos and make ones and twos like what what happened to the faithful small Church Pastor whoo-hoo-hoo Shepherds, you know, 50 people 75 people hundred people and and and he pours his life into that congregation like that. What what here's my opinion? What happened to that is that's just not sexy anymore. Right? Like that dudes not writing books that does that Doesn't podcast he doesn't even know you don't have a 15 inch MacBook Pro. He doesn't know about technology like that dudes not on Instagram like so we can't follow that guy. He's not relatable to us as much as the guy with the Velvet boots and the ripped jeans and the cool kind of like the way he talks and walks and lives. Right? So like like is it is it really more effective for you to be the Billy Graham of our age or would it be more effective for you to be the 50 person whom I like or how about not even would it be more effective for you to be the effect of small group leader of 15 people? Yeah, and I mean, well, I like that's that's where I think that we have a lot of differing in the Viewpoint because Caffrey for you, you definitely see, you know, small group and House Church as as an effective model and I see that as an effective model to it can be effective. Right? I do also see that, you know churches with with bigger congregations with bigger with You know more people it also means that they have a greater. I would say imprint on their Community. Okay, and I get the fact that you know, we in a smaller setting you can disciple more but I think it is harder. Once you start talking about reaching a mass amount of people and that's where you know, we could we could talk about that all day regarding like, you know, is it our celebrity pastors, you know, are they able to reach more people? People or are they just kind of getting people who are like jumping onto a bandwagon of religion? And I think that's where it's it's kind of hard because for me I would say that there are some celebrity pastures that do that do ministry very well meaning that they are able to train up and equip those that are underneath them to trampin equip those underneath them, you know, and so on and so forth, but at the same time like what okay. So for instance like like pastor Matt Chandler like the size of his congregation is not necessarily the same as the size of teeth Scott. Geisha right. So like like we have like a like a like when people start filling up like stadiums like like baseball stadiums to see one person talk. I also feel and were we are currently exploring this you're watching Nolan and I like walk out the exploration of this topic like you're seeing everybody there's way more opportunity for everybody to put their focus on the man. Yeah instead of less impressive setting scenario surrounding, you know to then like lead them to Jesus more. Yeah, right, but I mean like and I think that's where the and that's where for me I recognize that you can't necessarily always stop people from exalting from exalting somebody so as much as we would like to say like, oh, you know, Matt Chandler can just come up on a given Sunday and say like, you know, stop following me like he's done that before right and he still has people in this congregation that it's follow. Hey, I follow map. I'll tell you right now if I Going to go visit that church. I would want to be at the campus where Pastor mathletes. Yeah, everybody wants us to see that now guilty of it. I think biblically, you know, Paul definitely says that you know, you should not be under the camp of Paul or you should not be under the camp of Barnabas or in the camp of you know, this person or that person. It's it's more about hey, like I am a follower of Jesus first and foremost and that's why when I hear, you know, when we're at church and also night here like oh, yeah. No, Pastor, Donny is going to speak today and said pastor been is going to speak. Well, I'm not like in my heart and and I've been accused of this before especially from the previous year. So we went to it's like I've been accused of before in my heart first going and you know, but then I have to check myself right away and be like, you know what this is the holy spirit speaking regardless, but then but then but then but then the other Pastor speaks and you're like, okay, that was awesome. That was it. That was a that was a stinky. Yeah. That was a stinky. Of a sermon. Yeah and like and does happen at times happen and but like okay, I've been there done that right like I get it like I've been I've been ready to like preach on a Sunday morning back in the day and then like been there ready to like welcome somebody in and that like the old lady comes in or like who's preaching today and I go I am I have the Madonna microphone on it's my day and they turn around and go back to their car and absolutely and say that they're just gonna pause. Podcast like a repeat like the old lady say I'm just gonna go and what listen to a repeat of the the head Pastor so I don't have to shout out to old ladies everywhere. Shout out to Karen's all over the place. That's amazing. Okay, it's so yes like it like it is people are going to be drawn. Yeah two talented speakers. They're going to be Talent. They're going to be drawn to charismatic figures, but I don't know yet. Like that's maybe I see both sides. Like this is twofold like number one. We should encourage people to be biblically root like pastors. We should pray for them to be biblically rooted pastors, like amazing teachers of the word and so sound in the word of God, but we should also pray for them not to be entertaining and tickle are years, but we should pray for them to like, I mean listen to us like this episode one or two of the podcast. Yeah. Hopefully we're going to get better. Hopefully, hopefully people are out there praying. Oh, I would hope that Elites are Wives will listen to this episode and then finish it and pray for us to get better at podcast. That's what people who care about you do and so I think that's like the thing and that's I guess okay. Here's my next question. If you're a celebrity passer and this is what happens with celebrities, right? We think we know them. Yeah, but we don't actually know that we follow them on Instagram. We see them do interviews we fit this is how we feel about celebrities especially in America. Like we feel like I know him I feel like he's a good guy or a great gal like, but we don't actually know anything about Them that to me is probably the biggest danger of celebrity pastors is you can have a Congregation of people that don't know the pastor and therefore the pastor lives a life of isolation and there's no accountability there. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean like and I think that's where that's where it is hard because when you end but that's that's for that's for pretty much all pastors. Show me when you have a pastor that's even in front of a Congregation of 50 and that 50 are following him. He has a he has they they will at some point in time or at least a couple of people in the congregation will Elevate him to a status of moral imperfect like not in perfect. But more Perfection sure know where they say like, oh, he tells me how to live my life. So he must be you know, perfect and I think the I think a lot of times the bigger thing is that celebrity pastors have a huge responsibility to to like watch their Keel or basically make sure that they are they are protected on a hundred eighty. Reason and you know, we see that in some in some cases and in other cases, we don't I think that a lot of times celery pastors can kind of steer into the the attendance and the you know, the amount of people that are coming to their church or given the amount of people that are getting quote-unquote saved every single Sunday. Okay, and they allow that to dictate their actions because they're like, well if I if I start preaching actual truth or if I start preaching the hard truths of the Bible right all this Said my congregation is going to go. Well, I don't want to be here. I don't like this message. And so I'm going to watch you know, maybe 5,000 people walk out the door of my 10,000 person church. And now I don't have the same influence. I don't have the same income or whatever. It might Church to go out and affect my commute and that's why I think the celebrity that's why I agree with the article. It says the celebrity Pastor experiment is dead because it's putting too much weight on one person and I even when I think okay, like I have this list of like, let's talk about famous past. Okay, let's talk about The pastor's right like like the Apostle Paul. Yeah, Peter John famous pastors and their day, of course people went like that is those are the words of Paul. Yeah, right and but and like as you said like Paul had some people like like having issue with him like like, oh, are you a disciple of this person or a disciple of that person? He was still able to say right First Corinthians, like one follow me as I follow Christ. He was able to say that he wasn't saying I'm perfect like Christ is perfect. He that At that was like simultaneously and admission of like of like his guilt like follow me as I'm following. I'm not there. I'm progressing but progress after me like, you know, like you should model after me. That's okay like Martin Luther Martin Luther was was a great was a great Pastor. I think Marvel. So is Martin Luther punk rocker of his day nailing things on Church doors. Can we just talk about Martin Luther? I would say the nailing things in the church doors. I don't necessarily know. I do know that he submitted 99 pieces of I like in my mind your mind you like to picture he just nailed it and there was an anarchy symbol somewhere. Yeah simple not at all. Possibly the who was playing over radio. Absolutely. But I mean, even you know, even Martin even Martin Luther King jr. Was a very popular celebrity Pastor that's kind of true. You could say that yeah. Well, I mean, he definitely he definitely had an entire country following what he was saying. Okay, I'm gonna give him in the reformed area of things like Charles Spurgeon. Yeah, like Martyn lloyd-jones, one of my favorite preachers like is that Central from town to town and gather the entire time to have their people not only that but convert and revive the entire town shut like like Spurgeon Poppin. Yeah, it's his day. Oh, yeah popping. Yeah in his day. I read his I read his lectures. My student lectures Mighty has a full chapter on how hand motions are Incorporated and how you can incorporate ambushes and determines to better illustrate your point. That is like, this is a man that wrote this before hit him. Out propresenter hitter me of a Christian man is the man who writes a chapter on one hand. I bet you Billy Graham read I bet that book and that's where he got the famous point-to-point. He did got the fans Point like, okay, they're even right now. They're good slippery, but we mentioned some of them but like the match ahlers. The Tim Keller is the Francis chance that we would go like we respect them. We would listen to them and teach and that's part of my salt always like these guys are not they're not not watering down their scripture for for a bigger audience. They're just speaking what God is calling them to speak and they're still noticing that their congregations are still coming to them and it's like for me that's where I think you know, yes, maybe the the idea of I mean, hey, I would be happy if celebrity pastors were to you know, the the idea of celebrity either warranted. Yeah worked or didn't work. Like if everybody was to say like, you know what we don't want to follow one guy. We just want to go back to our local churches. We want to fill those baskets. Add to his Pew's again and just get it, you know, it's like hey, that's great. Because you know what, it gets more of us together in a one-on-one scenario. Yeah, but at the same time like I recognize that I mean like you mentioned throughout the totality of scripture, we have Paul and you know 31 BC, you know, or sorry ad as opposed to you know, governance is Chan, okay, 2018 on a podcast. It's like we're going to have these pastors that just naturally draw and attract be we have We're always going to have the people that pop like in that day in that like to that culture to the to the people that are representative that culture they're going to be they stand out to the Christians of that time. That's understandable. And I think that that's okay like and I want to read this quote by Ronnie Floyd. He's a senior pastor of of Cross Church of Northwest Arkansas. Good job, Ronnie. He explained that humans are made to worship is what he says. It's no surprise then that in a celebrity. Says Culture worship is often directed towards an influential Pastor or Charismatic Church leader, but when congregants put their pastors on the pedestal he warns the results are disastrous. And so that's where you know, like Tim Keller writes books. Matt Chandler writes books. Like they write books just like teeth and spikes. Okay, and I just so happy with our nicknames for that lol. So they write books just like the other ones read books. They write books just like the televangelist a trip. People off right but like they do some of the similar things so it's not necessary necessarily the trademarks of a bad celebrity Pastor. I think what Ronnie Floyd here senior pastor Cross Church in Northwest Arkansas saying is that the mark of a bad celebrity Pastor is the one that allows the worship and is it doesn't deflect the worship and put the worship on to Jesus and I think that the scripture would support that the like that Jesus is to be made much of and even you find the Old Testament. Like like as soon as Nebuchadnezzar like says like look what I have done. He goes crazy. Like I have a running Theory with my wife and she doesn't like this Theory I talk about all the time at dinner time, which is that we're not meant to be famous because if you look at the amount of crazy people that are or famous people that have gone crazy. It's kind of intense like it's hard to handle that level of worship. Yeah, you're not supposed. We're not supposed to have that level of worship and I think it's possible. It's a I'm not going to write a thesis on this or anything or write a book about this. It's possible that even the slightest amount of that rubs off on it was celebrity pastor and that's why we see so many of them kind of like it also is very possible that just we all like sheep have gone astray. Yeah, and I mean like I think the biggest thing is that as you know, celebrity pastors have a very hard and you know big burden on their shoulders to you know, exemplified Jesus to not only the Christian world, but also the non-Christian Well, then, you know, there are there are passes that do it. Well now like I said, I think it's just it's hard as as a man who has a large following of people like it's if you are charismatic enough and you are you know, if you speak well enough like you're going to just draw and attract those people it's going to help and you know it just unfortunately, I think it's just the you know, the the sin within our own Hearts to exalt I mean, even you know, even the the, you know, the Israelites did that with you know with It's all their first king. They said like, you know like God like God was like I am your king. I am your leader and they were like, yeah, we want we like it is a call Guy. We like the guy that we can see all the time right here, I think and that's where it's hard because you know, when we start talking about the Holy Spirit, who is the same as God the Father, you know, it's like a lot of time we walk into church and it's like yeah, like, holy spirit. I know that you're ministering to me and you're always ministering to me, but this guy is your vessel that time. You like it? Yeah, absolutely, but you and that's okay. I want to keep reading a little bit from like what was his name? Ronnie Ronnie Floyd. He says this sometimes people who attend well-known churches aren't committed to Christ or his church rather their allegiance lies with the engaging influencing Pastor. Unfortunately, he said these leaders may have extraordinary gifts, but questionable character now, here's where the quote gets epic ready. He says it's much better to be shepherded lead and pastored by a person with average gift. Gifts but a beautiful character than it is someone with Incredible gifts, but average or below average character. Yeah shots fired. Yeah fired for sure. That is hard quote that I think our brother Ronnie is like breaking down there. It's like listen like we all love somebody who's charismatic and engaging and exciting and where's velvet boo who doesn't want velvet boots, but it might be better to go with the person who doesn't have questionable character as a Less engaging well now but here's the thing that was like so I come from a church in Indiana where you know, we've we've had our ups and downs and you know, a lot of people in that church feel like there was some just kind of some moral things that they were kind of concerned with and you know, our church wasn't big at all. I mean at the height I think of our church in like 2002 or whatever there was about 300 people that went to our church. Maybe, you know at the Biggest sundae ever, you know, not a big church and you know, there are still some questionable character that might have been going on in the and that's why many people in that church actually left my mom and dad included just because of kind of what was going on in there. And so, you know to me it's like you all pastors all pastors are susceptible to having their character flaw that I think a lot of times some of them in the small church is the reason why we don't hear about it is because they're small churches there 50 people. I think it's easy to you know, and that's that's Once again celebrity pastors are in the spotlight. So it should be that when they have a moral failure to hold them up and say see, this is why celebrity pastors aren't a good thing. Right? But we also don't take into account. You know, how many people Billy Graham has led to the Lord so many people Robbie Zachariah right is changing Minds on it's like Zacharias. Sorry. See you've offended me except you talked about about Robbie. So now I need to put you in the throat, but no actually what you were saying. I just want like I think that's a perfect point, which is there are problems. There are A lots of small like light or pastors leading small congregations that probably fall that probably only like do something and error we they're just so small. We don't hear about them and the bigger lesson is to not follow man. Yeah, is that right to not follow man? And so and I think that like it's important that and this is why the podcast is biblical lenses, right? Like is that that we understand that like yet many men are going to fail you. Yeah, like we are going to fail you like pastors going to fail. Leaders going to fail you. Your boss is going to fail you your husband or wife is gonna fail you like your mother brother son daughter like everybody's going to fail you because we are human but God's not going to fail you. So when that failure happens by that person don't pin that on the Lord right continue to walk in faith. Like the God is good and that and he even shows his goodness. This is like I think like a big thing for me is like he shows his goodness in the fact that he's willing to forgive the man who's leading you yeah. Yeah. His failure. Yeah, that's a huge thing for me. Well and I think so. I heard this really good quote one time from one of my professors in Bible College. She said, you know some he said a lot of Christians will be more dedicated to their sports team than they will their own Pastor. Okay, you know and or to their own church, you know, where what I mean by that is like, you know, we see whether the past has a moral failure or it's you know, Karen, you know, the the 80 year old woman that walked out on you. It's like, you know, they they hear about oh You're preaching or oh this pastor has a moral failure. Well, I can't be a part of this church any longer because that's churches, you know, clearly not following the lord. It's like that's not it at all a man had a moral failure. I'm Ant-Man failed. It doesn't necessarily mean that all sudden the holy spirit is no longer engaging and interacting with with that church or even with that Pastor, you know, we've we've seen pastors before come through our old church who have had moral failures. They've taken it upon themselves to recognize their wrongs. Ask for forgiveness seek a long road of redemption. Yeah and step back into Ministry. Yeah, and they are fantastic men of God to this day. Yeah that messed up. You know, like you said who has not Fallen astray exactly who has not fallen from the glory of God and that's right. So like first Timothy like chapter 3 says if anybody aspires to the office of overseer Right leader Shepherd Pastor like like he desires a noble task, but here I mean, we don't want to like remove the requirements that are there like we are All like like we are all possible of like failing. It's very very possible for all of us. But there is still a standard. Yeah, right that we should aspire to and here's First Timothy says let an overseer like he must be above reproach the husband of one wife sober-minded self-controlled respectable hospitable able to teach not a drunkard not violent, but gentle not quarrelsome or a lover of money a lot of these things fly in the face of celebrities not necessarily flying the face. S of renowned well-known pastors or respected pastors, right? And so I think I'm landing in the middle on this like biblically, which means I think it is possible for you to be a renowned person who teaches preaches like disciples like is in love with Jesus. I think it's harder for you because you're at a higher level of accountability, but I don't think when you get to like the teeth and spike thing where you're like, I'm In this for like my own glorification, I think that becomes a problem and I think that's where it sits on the and I think a lot of celebrity passion but also just Pastors in general have a very good way of calling out those kind of people and I mean, I have no problem putting like Benny Hinn on blast because he is for sure like for sure a you know For the Love of Money kind of guy there's there's some teeth and spikes that we won't say names. Yeah, but there's some Benny Hinn, but I'm going to like it and it's just I mean and I like I said, you know for people that I know that there are people that have come to know the Lord through Benny Hinn and it's like that's okay, but I think that the biggest thing is like you will you will see pastors today being like hey beware of so-and-so because they preach this and if you actually like look into what they're saying, it's less of you know, what like you need to follow the lord Jesus Christ and it's more of like, hey pay me in my Ministry and War come we're going to come and heal you and it's like and that's where I think the Pastors do a good job of that. I think that a lot of well-known pastors just like Paul would have back in his day right getting up and saying this is what I should look like and if I ever stop looking like that, you need to stop following me. Yeah a good one thing that I want to mention before we end this podcast which a lot of believe the reason why we started talking about this in the first place is because we watched American gospel. We did we watch the documentary. Where is the doctor on Vimeo you have to pay for it, but worth it. It's definitely worth it because it talks a lot about the People that is preached through the American Pulpit which is more of you know, the health wealth and and kind of Salvation kind of message instead of hey, we're going to preach Jesus Christ to every single person so that they know what he did for time the health wealth and salvations. The health wealth Prosperity is the health wealth and self Joy like self-help like like gospel, which is so upsetting. Yeah it is this that is I you know, what like I didn't I was wondering why this was episode 1 like I and I just really that's We just watched that documentary and it was so potent as to the difference between the American kind of churchianity and the legitimate Gospel of Jesus. So it was there was just such a difference that just subconsciously stuck in our brains and it became like episode 1. Yeah, of course because we like that's what happens where worldview it sinks into our heads. Yeah, and we just speed up. Yeah, so I mean kind of I mean want to wrap it up and think about like what are some of the biggest takeaways like one of my biggest takeaways is there are right now as we speak there are faithful people that have large followings that are are preaching the real gospel the real good news. And I think one of the biggest takeaways for me is praying for people who have lots of eyes on them. Yeah because it's imperative like they do have the opportunity. They do have great power and therefore great responsibility, and I don't We should go without praying for these people who have created a platform. There's a God has created a platform for them. I think we should pray for them. That's the big takeaway for me. Yeah, of course, I mean and like I had previously said is you know, like we need to be very one biblically rooted as absolutely if you're just going and listening to the pastor preach every single sending your biggest takeaway is what he said out of it instead of what the Bible says out of it. Like that's that's kind of a dangerous point for you because then anybody can just come come up and they can say things just just close enough to the gospel that you can miss or or follow the wrong kind of thinking behind that and so just don't especially don't let the the production of a place right, you know dictate what you believe, you know, it has to have it has to be biblically rooted. Yep, and you have to be able to you know line everything up with the Bible itself. I think it Nolan and I could encourage anybody out there listening like to one thing. It's that You should find a place a church and a pastor who is willing to teach the hard parts of the Bible as well as the ones that make you feel warm and fuzzy he if you if you don't have a place that teaches and preaches the things that make you uncomfortable and shift in your seat. You might want to pray about finding a different place because it's not like some 37 says like delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart and I think that encapsulates what we're talking about because The desires of your heart may not necessarily always be the things you think they are. Yeah, they might be hard truths that he wants you to face. And if you're in a place that it's not helping you to face those things. It might be the wrong place. Yeah. It's so celebrity pastors many pastors. It's a thing. Yeah. I don't know how long it'll be around but I think God's Sovereign and he's using it somehow for his glory. Yeah, and I think that as long as people are you know, like really see seeking Jesus like they they're really going to and they have to listen to the Lord figure out if it's the right place for them right person to follow. Yeah, but it's got to come back down to the Bible. Like are they being true to it? Yeah, they've got to be preaching from the Bible. They've got to be preaching the truth of the Bible. And and I mean, I think like we said in the beginning, you know, if you are having conversations with other Christians that are not from the same church, you know, biblically founded Christians and they're they're looking at you and going actually that doesn't you know, that that sounds kind of weird. Like you should take note of that. That's definitely something as well to just talks about discipleship and you know and the accountability. Yeah, let's do a before we go a tough three stereotypes of a celebrity Pastor like what top top top five. I would say perfect hair perfect here. Yeah. Okay, I would say some sort of dangly jewelry. Yep, I would say he's got the verified symbol and it's Grim verify symbol. Okay, I would say he uses terms like believe in the victory. We believed in the Victory and finally I would say celebrity Pastor has genes that are skinnier than his theology. Nope. Thank you guys for listening. If you guys wouldn't mind giving it a like' on whatever podcast application and listening to check the show notes for bunch of interesting. Or links that we put in there funny stuff interesting stuff stuff that makes you go, huh. We put those kinds of things in the show notes. We appreciate you guys staying with us and listening to the whole thing. Yeah. Thank you so much guys next week. See you next week. Bye. Or links that we put in there funny stuff interesting stuff stuff that makes you go, huh. We put those kinds of things in the show notes. We appreciate you guys staying with us and listening to the whole thing. Yeah. Thank you so much guys next week. See you next week. Bye.
In his episode we discuss the predicament of Celebrity Pastors. You know the type of pastors I'm talking about. Verified on Instagram, huge followings, trendy clothes and they write books with super edgy names... is it biblical though? That's what we try to get to the bottom of in this episode. Quote of the day: “The Celebrity Pastor is a failed experiment!”  Questions to think about: How should we think about celebrity pastors? Can you serve God from a place of Fame or does it put too much pressure on you? Is it easier to fall from Grace when you’re famous? Scriptures to consider: 1 Corinthians 1:11 - “Follow me as I follow after Christ” 1 Timothy 3:1-3 - "If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money." 1 Corinthians 10:31 - "So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." John 12:43 - "For they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God." 