Hi everyone. This is Hannah before we get started. I just want to tell you about anger. It's actually the app I'm using right now to create this podcast anchors by far the easiest way to create a podcast it's free and you can use it on your phone or on your computer within anchor. It gives you the tools to record edit and mix your podcast and then anchor takes your podcast for you and it distributes it to all the major podcasting platforms, like apple podcast and Spotify.This was definitely the most helpful feature for me because I didn't have any podcasting experience. And so I would have had no idea how to get my podcast out there. You can also make money from your podcast anchor will pair you with sponsors and you can start making money without even having a minimum listenership. If you're interested in making a podcast download the free anchor app or go to Anchor dot f m-- to get started again download the free anchor up or go to Anchor FM to getDidn't you won't regret it? I got a phone call from a man. He said my name is dr. Peter Hackett calling to see if your daughter Shannon was there I said no I said you know, why who are you and he said that he ran I we were the house for girls Shannon was there she was upset he'd given her some medication calmed down and he was worried about her. Is she home? I had asked him. How did you get my number and he told me that you know, it's the policy that if anyone goes to his, you know his house that he has to have contact information. And I knew that was wrong. They say that he's an exaggerator. He likes to put himself in the middle of things, but he's otherwise harmless and from the facts that I have that's dramatically untrue. I'm Hannah green and I'm Quinn wolf and this is crime Coast. Hi everyone. We want to apologize for the delay in getting episode 3 up. We are still trying to get episodes up every other Monday and we really appreciate your patience and dedication to the show. Thanks to those of you who deemed us emailed us tweeted at us. We are still working very hard to get the content put together and to get the episodes out bi-weekly. So with that being said, we have a particular doctor and some burlap that needs to be discussed buckle up because this one's a crazy ride. This episode is going to contain some talk of suicide. So if that's going to upset you, I think maybe it's best that you skip this one, but if it doesn't strap in Before we dive back into the case and throw some new players at you. Let's just recap the night of Shannon's disappearance because remember she was not found with the four bodies wrapped in burlap on Ocean Parkway, right? So on May 1st 2010 in the early hours of the morning Shannon Gilbert was last seen frantically running around the Gated Oak Beach Community. She was hearing banging on a number of residents doors screaming for help. Shannon didn't accept help from the two neighbors who open the door for her, but she did cross paths with someone else someone whose property was about 30 yards away from where her body was found. Someone who spoke to her mother Mary before she even knew that Shannon was missing. Dr. Charles Peter Hackett was a longtime resident of Oak Beach and much like Brewer. He didn't have the best reputation. Yeah hack it was just sort of a weird guy. He was constantly looking to be a savior but his actions often cause more harm than good hacker up in Point Lookout a Barrier Island community. Just west of Jones Beach and remember Oak Beach is east of Jones Beach but the two are connected by Ocean Parkway. Oh, so what you're saying is that he has a lifetime of experience in the area driving down Ocean Parkway and would definitely know all of the most desolate. That beachy strip. Yeah, you're picking up what I'm putting down. Okay taking it back to the 1990s. I digress the thing about Hackett is that you can never tell when he's telling the truth right hack. It has a prosthetic leg and according to co-workers book. He told people that he was involved in a car accident when he was trying to help a driver in distress on the Northern State Parkway, which is totally Noble if that happened, but we're going to share a few more claims by Hackett about his selflessness and courage Both of those words are in quotes, by the way, and then you can decide for yourself if they're true or not. I've decided for myself that they're all bullshit. We're going to Rattle off a couple of these claims all of which we got from coker's book. Are you ready as ready as I'm gonna be? Okay. So something we can confirm is that Hackett served as the head of Suffolk County EMS for 2 years in the 90s. He led the response team to the crash of the TWA Flight 800 off of the shore of Montauk in 1996 and Could claim that the hours after flight 800 exploded and please get ready for this the Coast Guard the whole entire Coast Guard flew him personally out to the wreckage and lowered him down to the deck of a yacht and an and he swam through the fuel slicked water to examine a that's One Singular Uno body the American Coast Guard. Yes, the US Coast Guard denied such a thing happened or that even Have been possible. Nice the next year. He resigned due to quote policy differences with his superiors and quote, right? He had a strict policy of lying which it didn't jive with the Suffolk County that last line was a joke, by the way, please don't sue us for libel. But what is not a joke is this next claim? So Hackett told his colleagues. He was searching for survivors in the wreckage of a roof collapse in Bayshore. Meanwhile Witnesses of the roof collapsed. Confirmed he was nowhere near the scene. Can you handle one more? Because this is the best one. So before he left that other job with the Suffolk County EMS. He got roasted one last time for interfering in the rescue of three men when he lowered himself into a frigid water tank that collapse at the MacArthur Airport in Suffolk County Hackett painted a picture that he nobly and swiftly rappelled down the water tank While others reported that he Just climb down a ladder. His actions were of said to have caused injury to those involved. I cannot imagine how slowly he went down that ladder. Yeah, and he denied all of this on his way out the door awkward in 2001 Hackett was in his mid-40s. He found out he had a congenital heart condition and he had to have a defibrillator put in that force him to retire. Thank God. So those are all the tales of dr. Peter Hackett do with it what you will But there's also a video of him online faking a heart attack while being interviewed I beg of you please go look it up. So I know you're wondering. Oh, I'm sure you're wondering what the hell does any of this have to do with Shannon Gilbert clearly Hackett had earned a reputation for spinning stories throughout his neighborhood. Actually. There's a quote from Newsday that describes pack it as quote and erratic would-be hero who embellishes his achievements? And yeah, I think that hits the nail on the head, right so we can tell that Hackett had to say Savior complex and on May 3rd, 2010 two days after Shannon went missing. But before she was officially reported missing Mary Gilbert Shannon's mom received a phone call from dr. Peter Hackett. He claimed that he operated a halfway house for Wayward girls and Shannon had been there in his house on the night of May 1st to reiterate Shannon's mother had no idea that Shannon was even missing or that she would have even been in trouble. Right? So what we say next is From a court document which you can find on LexisNexis or Westlaw. So on that phone call Hackett told Mary quote. He had tried to help her and he treated her but she had left with her driver and he was worried about her disappearance and quote while Hackett adamantly denies. These calls happened classic. There are quote telephone records showing that calls replace from dr. Hackett cell phone on May 30, 2010. And from his home phone on May 6 to Mary's Gilbert cell phone on the Her date the call is from dr. Hackett's home phone to Shannon sisters. Sure. He's cellphone and quote. And here's the kicker during a court proceeding a bunch of his Oak Beach neighbors signed sworn affidavits claiming that either through hack it or through Word of Mouth that they were told quote shannan Gilbert was present at dr. Hackett's home or was given medication by him the night of her disappearance end quote. There's also one claim where an individual while driving past hackett's house overheard Hackett. Railing against the siding of his house while wailing to his wife that he couldn't believe the situation. He had put the family in and that his intention was to help Shannon Gilbert not kill her. Again. This information is all taken from a state of shannan Gilbert verse Hackett 2017 and we'll get back to that in a little bit. So one theory on how hack it is related to this case is that when Shannon fled Brewers house in the oak Beach gated community on May 1st 2010. And when she was frantically knocking on doors throughout the neighborhood some believe that she eventually knocked on the door of Peter Hackett as well and check out our Instagram. We posted a map of Shannon's pass the night that she ran through the neighborhood knocking on all the doors. We know that Peter Hackett love to play the Savior and insert himself or he does not belong. So perhaps he hears this upset young girl running through his community or on his police scanner that he frequently monitored, right and remember at this point multiple. People in the community had called the police about Shannon. So could it be possible that in classic Hackett form? He stuck himself where he didn't belong and tried to help Shannon, but just made things worse. I think that's why so many people correlate him with this case. Well aside from the fact that he called Shannon's mom two days after her disappearance and that he's just generally weird another reason why people connect a kit to this case is because Shannon's body was eventually found in the marsh behind his house for Contacts Shannon's body was found a year after the four bodies wrapped in burlap were found on the side of Ocean Parkway. One person who truly believed Hackett was involved was Oak Beach resident Jo scalisi Junior Joe scalisi junior live next door to his father Joe scalisi senior and his sister in the oak Beach Community. The scalisi said lived there since the 1970s and didn't really get along with the rest of the community and the scalisi family firmly believed that whoever killed Shannon Gilbert. Or lived in their community and according to an interview of Joe scalisi junior on a and he's documentary The Killing season. The scalisi's correctly predicted where Shannon's body would be found. They were also not fans of dr. Peter Hackett this gliese he's obviously heard all of the rumors surrounding Shannon's disappearance including that Hackett was involved when they finally saw a segment on the news about how Hackett had called Shannon's Gilbert's mother Mary before Renew, Shannon was missing the scalise. He's decided they want to get involved after hearing how adamantly the scalise he's felt about hackett's involvement with Shannon's death The Killing season decided to investigate the doctors potential involvement while scouring the web for information about Hackett The documentarians came across a user on Long Island serial killer.com who seem to know quite a lot of information. Yeah. This user went by the name fluke you that's right fluke. Like the fish and in August 2011 fluke you posted quote. Here's a hint something interesting was found in the doctors backyard and quote and Shannon's belongings and her body were not found until December 2011. So you do the math, but someone clearly knew something before the cops found her or her belongings when Joe scalisi junior was interviewed for The Killing season. They asked him if he was fluke you and let's just say he does not have Have a poker face do with that what you will and not for nothing after the bodies were found neighbors started noticing that Hackett had Florida plates on his Vehicles. Yeah, and that he was trying to sell his house to move down to Florida. Perfect timing. Right? So while Hackett is quite the character and there's a lot of things you could explain away and convince yourself that he was not involved with Shannon's disappearance. There's one thing you cannot explain away, right? And that's the phone calls. How on God's green earth did hack it get the Gilbert. numbers he had to have had contact with Shannon Gilbert at some point before her Disappearance in order to get their numbers from her cellphone and he had very limited amount of time to do this because Shannon did not go out to Long Island often many of the residents wholeheartedly believe that packet was involved whether it was maliciously or completely benign Joe Brewer the last client Shannon ever had and fellow Oak Beach resident openly stated in an interview with kolker that He knew for a fact that Hackett was involved with Shannon's disappearance. The Hackett Rabbit Hole just never ends. Hey, remember Peter Hackett the weird liar who lived in Oak Beach and called Shannon's family before they knew she was missing sounds familiar. Okay? Well his backyard was the largest marsh in Oak Beach. It was 49 acres and according to kolker it borders the street of anchor way, which is the last place Shannon Gilbert was seen alive and larboard Court where the hackett's lived right and again to remind you all. This marshes were Shannon's body was eventually found. In December 2011. We think it's really necessary to paint a vivid picture of this Marsh because it truly had a life of its own and a few theories of Shannon's death are based on the insanity that is this Marsh. So according to our Coker Bible every time it rains the marsh would fill up completely and if it was operating properly, it should drain out through the pipes underneath the roads of Oak Beach, but like most things we've discussed the marsh draining system didn't operate properly. The pipes were either crushed or would get clogged with sediment. This would lead to the marsh swelling even higher the grounds around the marsh would become too swampy and full of muck that no Oak Beach. Resna would even go near it Coker describe the marsh as quote the Frankenstein of plant life and it was universally avoided by all Oak Beach residents in the fall of 2011 the marsh pipes responsible for draining the marsh were repaired for the first time in decades that meant the visibility. Marsh increased substantially, so one morning in December 2011 Suffolk County Police decided to venture back into the marsh to search for Shannon the police including officer John Malia and his dog blue set out into the marsh there. They found the fully intact remains of shannan Gilbert. She was only a few feet from the shoulder of Ocean Parkway to backtrack a little they found Shannon's purse First with her ID inside then they found her phone. Her shoes and a pair of torn jeans after they found her belongings. But before they found her body Suffolk County Police Department formed a theory of what happened to Shannon Police Commissioner Richard Dormer stated that Shannon was high that night paranoid and that she ran into the marsh. He believed she was able to see the car lights from Ocean Parkway, but because she was so high she wasn't able to realize that the cars were almost a quarter of a mile away. I'm sorry. What headlights there? Probably no cars driving down Ocean Parkway at 5:00 in the morning dorm. I concluded that Shannon ventured into the marsh tripped in the drainage ditch and drowned. Okay, and not to be that guy but I'm going to throw on my tinfoil Hat real quick according to coker's book and amongst other research. We've done we found out the discovery of Shannon's belongings came conveniently close to Dormers retirement. He was also on the record stating before they had even began the search of the marsh that Shannon was definitely in there. Once again, I'm suspicious me too. Another weird thing to note is while Shannon's mother Mary was able to confirm that the phone person jeans definitely belonged to Shannon. She wasn't able to confirm that the shoes found in Oak Beach were hers. Apparently when Shannon went missing. She was last seen in strappy sandals and the shoes that the police found in the marsh were belly flat. Mary Gilbert would go on to say that she thinks Shannon's things were planted in the marsh by Suffolk County Police. She believed that Dormer just wanted to find the remains say she drowned and close the case before he retired. I mean, it's plausible anything's plausible in this friggin case, and that's why we made a podcast about it digressing but for Shannon's body was found Dormer told kolker himself that Shannon's belongings were found right off of like a little path. He believed she went down on Path and got disoriented something. We would really like to emphasize here is from what we could tell before she was found most of law enforcement thought she was high at the time of her disappearance and not to spoil anything but spoiler no alcohol or drugs were found in her system when she was discovered. Yeah idiots, but let's get into that on December 13th 2011 when Shannon's body was found the police didn't need to wait for a medical report to determine that it was in fact Shannon. The first thing they noticed was Is the metal plate in her jaw the one she got after being punched in the face by her longtime boyfriend Alex Diaz, her body was about a quarter of a mile away from her belongings, which kind of destroys Dormers theory that she could navigate the marsh and just died probably near the small Trail where her belongings were found, but that didn't faze. Good old Dormer. He said her belongings were found so far away from her because she was hysterical and just flung them all willy-nilly he even went on to say it's possible her jeans came off. Simply from running in that environment like the marsh itself took off Shannon's pants totally logical and reasonable Quinn. I don't know what your issue is. If you couldn't tell from Hannah's tone this theory was not in fact logical nor was it reasonable and Shannon's mother Mary thought the same thing she didn't understand the whole notion that Shannon was in a drug-induced psychosis quill Court did confirm that Mary couldn't wrap her head around this idea quote. What a crazy person called 9-1-1, that's not a psychotic break. That's Genuine Terror and quote quote. How could she be crazy enough to pull her jeans off in the marsh yet rational enough to keep 9-1-1 on the phone for 23 minutes. So obviously since her death was under suspicious circumstances. There was an autopsy done on Shannon Gilbert two years to the day from when Shannon went missing Shannon's family met with Suffolk County chief medical examiner Yvonne molesky to discuss her findings. the meeting lasted about two and a half hours as previously mentioned Shannon was found almost completely intact besides a few finger and toe Bones the only notable things missing were two of three hyoid bones Coker describe these bones as the quote small fragile bones in the upper part of the neck a broken hyoid bone is a Hallmark of strangulation cases if we haven't mentioned it before our bad but the cause of death for the first four girls were Relation, we have no proof that Shannon's hyoid was broken since it was not there and while it's possible that these bones were taken away by rodents or just lost in the marsh. It's very strange that there are over 200 bones in the body. And what are the odds that the one bone that could link Shannon's cause of death with the other four was taken away by a rodent. Once again, we are not scientists and we were tipped off to this Oddity by coker's book. Another thing to note from the autopsy, is that no trace of cocaine or heavy drug were found in Shannon's body, which quashes Police Commissioner Dormers theory that Shannon was high and a maniac and ripping off all our clothes a quick aside something else. We think is weird is that the medical examiner detective told Gilbert's family that they needed bone marrow to test for more drugs like meth psychedelics or pot, but they were unable to get bone marrow out of her femur. I'm sorry, but aren't there. Two femurs and like 200 other bones. That's what I'm saying something to note. The Gilbert family had an independent autopsy done by famed New York City medical examiner. Dr. Michael Baden. Dr. Baden found her death and subsequent decomposition were not consistent with drowning as commissioner Dormer theorized bad and concluded quote there is insufficient evidence to determine a definite cause of death, but the autopsy findings are consistent with strangulation and quote. So we have conflicting reports over Shannon's cause of death something else that raises questions is how difficult it would be to navigate through this Marsh right two years after Shannon went missing her lawyer along with her family decided to retrace her steps through the marsh to see if it was possible to drown or died from exposure to the elements Ray Shannon's family lawyer. Even brought along a young woman who is around the same height and weight as Shannon according to co-workers. It wasn't hard at all to walk through the marsh their shoes barely got wet their sight lines extended over the Reeds and from the thick of it. They could see houses and the highway right and according to co-workers book Shannon's family lawyer found it hard to believe that Shannon could have gotten lost it all and even harder to believe that she died from exposure Coker also raised a bunch of valid questions revolving around the fact that will never know how Shannon died because all the ways we could have found out were not viable right her hi. Eight bones were missing and they only tested for one drug because they weren't able to find bone marrow and one of her femurs and they just gave up despite having other bones to test because in case people forgot her body was found nearly intact with the exception of those few bones that we mentioned earlier. So John Ray Shannon's family lawyer has come to the conclusion that her body was placed in the marsh on the other hand the documentarians from The Killing season did a similar experiment and found it extremely difficult to navigate through. The marsh they find it very hard to believe that someone could have carried a body out there. So we don't have the answers. We're just here to give you all the information we have so you can decide for yourself many pointed out that a year and a half after Shannon went missing the police randomly decided to check the marsh for her and then they found her within a week again. All of this was occurring very shortly before Dormers retirement. However, as Coker pointed out in his book Shannon was found on the same. That the families of the victims were holding a vigil for the first anniversary of the discovery of the bodies. Now, is that just poetic or is it staged great question. So obviously something to point out here shiny was not found in a shallow grave on Ocean Parkway nor was she wrapped in burlap, which means whoever killed Shannon if she was killed seemed to possibly have a different Mo than the person who killed Maureen Melissa Megan and Amber. So while Shannon's disappearance is what led to the discovery of four other Girls, it seems like a very real possibility that she did not meet the same fate as them to recap Shannon's disappearance. Led the police to search the oak Beach area this search eventually bled out on to Ocean Parkway and officer John Malia and his drug blue found the four bodies while looking for Shannon, right? Exactly. So if Shannon never went missing, it's likely these girls may have never been found. So even if Shannon wasn't killed by the same person or didn't die in the same way as the other girls Connected Coker had a really simple quote in his book which gave me chills and he wrote quote the girls all found each other and quote my heart. On December 14th 2011 just one day after Shannon's body was discovered in the thick Marsh behind hackett's house 48 year-old local business Empire owner James J. Bisset the third took his own life near his home in mattatuck on Long Island. Now, don't let the phrase local business Empire fool you this man ran things in Suffolk County get ready for this list of businesses ready? He owned Treasure Cove Resort Marina in Riverhead, which is about an hour away from Go Beach, he co-owned the Long Island Aquarium and exhibition Centre also in Riverhead. He built the Hyatt Place East and hotel in downtown Riverhead. And of course, he owned biscuits Nursery in Holtsville and in Dix Hills with his family both are about 45 minutes to an hour away from Gilgo Beach, but he wasn't just a business owner. He was a staple in the Suffolk County local business Community for reference the aquarium. He owned is an absolute hub for school field trips on Long. Island I genuinely do not know one Long Island kid that did not have to go to that aquarium in elementary school facts, but besides being heavily involved in the local business scene visit was also really involved with the Suffolk County Police Department, it has even been reported that he was Pals with former Suffolk County Police Department. Chief James Burke who spoiler would later become disgraced and investigated by the FBI. Well how queer now some of you may be wondering okay this local business guy kills himself. 60 miles away a day after Shannon's body was found who cares meet me. I care you want to know why do tell? Okay. So as we just said Bisset owned a nursery Empire Nursery as in plant nursery, by the way, right? So a reminder the bodies Maureen Melissa Megan and Amber were found on the side of Ocean Parkway, correct? And would you happen to remember what their bodies were wrapped in burlap? And do you know the only place on Long Island were locals know to get burlap big enough to wrap a body? He visits nursery and just add a little more weight to this Theory not only where we told by locals that visits Nursery was the place to get large burlap. But on the documentary The Killing season Rachel and Joshua went around the island asking small Nursery owners if they sold burlap and none of them did all fingers actually pointed to Basics nursery for burlap that was large enough. I've been doing Contracting on Long Island about 40 years now and about 20 years ago. I was The opportunity to go dig some larger above ice for screening out of project I was doing so I went to visit and rented a root ball machine and they were very large root balls and I had a hard time finding burlap that would actually cover these in one piece but unlucky enough visit is the one place that I found that had very large burlap. So it worked out. Well, I return the machine and always good, but they did have their supplies. So to recap a wealthy businessman who owns the only place on Long Island to get the specific type of burlap for bodies were found in kills himself the day after a fifth body was found not sauce at all my thoughts exactly but it gets even more sus so in 2013, one of the longtime Executives at Biscuits aquarium. Also took his own life on June 13th. 2013 60 year-old Robert Landing. Harry was found dead of a suspect. Suicide in his home in jeans port and much like visit. He had major ties to Suffolk County Ranieri was at one point the president of the river had Chamber of Commerce and his wife Diane was a Suffolk County Deputy Treasurer. So Bissett and Lonnie Airy were business buds heavily involved in the Suffolk County community members of the Suffolk County Republican committees and both kill themselves within two years of each other and they both had ties to the Suffolk County Police Department. So hypothetically if Suffolk County Police figured out who list was and they respected him and they knew he was dead. Would they possibly just try to cover it up? Perhaps not cover it up, but maybe just keep quiet and hope it goes away. It doesn't sound too far-fetched to me. So to be clear the idea that Bissett is liske is an idea that a lot of long Islanders subscribed to however, it does seem that a lot of surrounding the suspicion of Bissett is founded on local gossip and rumors. Rumor is that he had some victims numbers in his phone? Another is that he just had a brand-new multimillion-dollar estate built out in Mattituck only to kill himself a few months later. But again, these are rumors and nothing has been verified. Just some things we heard through the grapevine. So if the Bissett is liske Theory doesn't jive with you here are some others biscuit was involved with liske knew that this person was liske and liske knew that Bisset knew who he was. And when the bodies were found in burlap both knew it was a matter of time before the burlap was traced to Bisset. So Bisset in fear of what liske would do to him or his family kills himself if that theory doesn't work. Try this one whisk kills Bisset and makes it look like a suicide or the police kill Bisset I make it look like a suicide because of biscuits ties to Chief Burke, but again all rumors and speculation. But I believe all of them so to recap the bodies of four girls, Marine Melissa Megan and Amber were found on the side of Ocean Parkway. These girls are all believed to have been killed by the same person and this person is known as the Long Island serial killer or liske ever heard of him Shannon Gilbert went missing which eventually led to a search of Ocean Parkway, which is where the girls bodies were discovered. However, Shannon's body would not be found for another year. In a separate location from the other girls therefore, it doesn't seem like she was killed by the same person exactly. So this is it. I guess five dead girls too weird guys a bunch of theories and no real answer it so Hannah my sweet dear. You're forgetting forgetting. What about the other six bodies found on Ocean Parkway? Oh right next time on crime Coast. We also want to note that the interview we used at the beginning for the cold open is an interview taken from crime. Watch Daily. We're going to put the link to the YouTube video that we found of the interview in the show notes. So we just want to make sure that we are saying that that was not our interview with Mary Gilbert. We got that interview from crime watch Daily if you or anyone, you know has any info about the Long Island serial killer please contact Suffolk County Crime Stoppers by telephone dial 1-800-222-6950 Siege text scpd and your message to crimes or two seven four six three seven four by email visit w-w-w dot tip submit.com. All tips will remain anonymous. If you have any questions or comments, or if you have any information that you think should be included in the show, please contact us at crime Coast POD at gmail.com music is by Matt sessions and Andy L. The show was mixed and produced by Hannah green. This podcast is independently created. It's just the two of us doing this. That means we do all the research write the scripts conduct the interviews and mix and produce the show all while working full time and going to school with that being said, we're trying to put out an episode every Monday but due to the magnitude of this case and the work that goes into creating this show episodes might occasionally be bi-weekly. As much as we'd love to consistently give you a regular episode every week. We'd prefer to have a well done episode every few weeks rather than a half-baked episode each week. If you like what you're hearing. Please give us five stars and subscribe and please tell your friends and family significant others and anyone else about this podcast. It helps our podcast become more discoverable and therefore helps us get the story out. Be sure to check out our Instagram and Twitter at crime Coast pot. And please consider joining and donating to our patreon at crime Coast pod. Thank you all for your support and we'll talk to you very soon. Be sure to check out our Instagram and Twitter at crime Coast pot. And please consider joining and donating to our patreon at crime Coast pod. Thank you all for your support and we'll talk to you very soon.
What does a doctor and some burlap have to do with the LISK case, anyway? Listen to find out. 