Welcome back to the inspiration space for what I think is potentially one of the topics that may be most relevant to the people listening to this show. So I spoke to Vanessa Malta the couple of months ago fantastic episode. I thought on passion and perseverance in something called Grit. It and today she came back on to talk about imposter syndrome. So firstly I just want to thank her because I know how busy she is. She's working on some incredible projects at the moment and it means a lot to me. It's for her to you know, come and see me twice in two months and really, you know dedicating our to me and talk about something which I think is really important. So what's imposter syndrome where you find out in this episode, we also talked about, you know, how you can sort of recognized. Pasta syndrome and how you kind of sort of you can sort of combat it in a way fascinating me. Imposter syndrome is most common in high Achievers, which is I find fascinating but it can also tend to hinder a lot of people from getting to where their true potential is as well. So, you know, if you're in one of those two categories and you find yourself really feeling like an imposter sometimes and not really getting the most out of what you are truly capable of this is definitely one for you. I personally deal with paws. Engine for a long time this year actually more than more than any year that I could argue. He says my most successful yet. So for me, this was a really really interesting lesson. She's so clued up. She's such an intelligent woman and yeah guys get the most out of it because you know, we're lucky enough to have people like this come onto the show and and speak to us and inform us about these interesting topics. So yeah, enjoy take we can from it. And if you have a spare moment disfavor go and give of this show the great racing review. That means I can carry on get some phenomenal guess which I do have coming up as well over the next coming weeks. Keep your eyes out for those. All right. Enjoy guys is cool how it's developed. But I think this is this podcast is is what we'll talk about today is really relevant for me in a lot of ways because I did start this podcast not having n at the time. I was like selling like umbrellas at merchandising company. So this was the first step for me to kind of go in where I wanted to but what was holding me back was essentially the fear of being found out and being an imposter like and it's kind of stayed with me. I've still I mean I made you got it in a massive way. Like I feel constantly the fact that I'm going to be found out or every time I go and interview somebody I have to Not me. I've been watching a lot more about and stuff recently, which is we might touch on it today. But there's like I almost have to get myself into a initially an inauthentic place not in terms of like my morals or anything like that, but I have to force myself to get the body language and and and kind of overcompensate with a little bit of confidence to get me through the door if that kid until you make yeah, that's it back. And yeah, that's that's basically it so I know that if I do that then it's fine because because it will ride but initially the my my my natural authentic thinking is fuck me like this this this guy can turn around and be like, you know, who are you don't at that that's that's my back to that that obviously makes contact totally and hopefully we can talk about that in relation to where how imposter syndrome develops and it comes back. To and I'll cover some of the ground from the previous podcast in relation to our core beliefs. It's a conditional it's a it's a core belief that's associated with conditional worth. Yeah sense of worth is conditional on something that you do. Yeah, or don't do or say or don't say or look or feel so it's if you have a core belief which and actually I was just kind of talking to one of your one of your leagues earlier the most generic core belief or someone with imposter syndrome is I'm not good enough. Yeah, and I'll be honest with you. I whenever I see someone for therapy, I will always create what I call it psychological formulation, which is you know, I pull together all their history and everything is like a jigsaw puzzle and in the middle will be a summary of someone's what I would suggest limiting core beliefs and we can talk through again what that actually means I Probably say quite confidently at least ninety percent of the people that I see one of their core beliefs will be I'm not good enough. It's fascinating and and that will then trickle into and play out in all aspects of someone's life, but that but that's the important bit to recognize us of the night impostor syndrome tan some what it is. And also what it's not because what it's not is it's not about someone's confidence necessarily. It's not about someone's self-esteem because someone can still be really confident have a confident personality. In a number of areas of their life, but it will it's usually activity specific. So yeah, if someone has imposter syndrome that doesn't mean they're not a confident person but they would potentially be under not confident in a specific activity or situation that their conditional worth is based on it's amazing. What where does this self-doubt like like come from I've liked In human being I mean like it's so common. Like you just said 90% of the people you see I mean and I assume this is me making a prediction that a lot of people you see of high Achievers in a way most probably the most probably yeah, so the fact that they've got to a certain point in their lives. Proves that they got talent. Yeah essentially where I mean, how does that self-doubt develop and how the hell is it? So common in high Achievers? Yeah, is that what drives them send it? Yeah. I mean the reality is it well and that's that's what everything in relation to how we behave and how we think there's a healthy level of everything and then there's an unhealthy level of everything because actually, you know, having drive and determination and wanting to prove Yourself that you can achieve something is not necessarily a bad thing, you know, we might touch on grits because you know that grits really important for our levels of success. But if we are constantly constantly striving to prove our worth in a certain area, then it becomes unhealthy and then actually it becomes limiting. It becomes limiting because we fear it we fear that we might fail at something we fear we're going to jump around all over the place here. You're the fear that you have is individual to you. So In the same kind of ballpark, you've got the fear if someone's struggling with impostor syndrome and they have the fear of failure. You also might have someone because of their background and this is where I'm going to start to come out. What how does this all emerge? They might have a fear of coming across as arrogant and it's really important to them that they're not seen as arrogant. They're seen as humble. So actually if you own it if you own your success and this is a thing with imposter syndrome. It's about Successful people not owning their success. They they struggle with associating the effort that they have put into doing something to the success that they have experienced. They will have thoughts like well, you know, I achieve that because I was in the right time the right place. Oh that person just help me out. I've just been really lucky. In fact, it's a phrase that iban a lot of clients from saying like, I'm lucky. Why interesting? I'm really I'm just really lucky. No, you're not lucky that has happened because you made it happen or you've approached something in a certain way. So an imposter someone who struggles with imposter syndrome cannot or struggles to internalize or put their successes down to themselves and what they have done. Now, there's lots of reasons behind it. I knew that was gonna happen took extra lab. I'm sorry. Yeah carry on. There are lots of different reasons behind why someone might struggle to internalize their own success. Sure. I'll start if I may with the gender difference actually, please do which is quite interesting and then I'll come on to kind of the more generic. It's going to be an issue. Okay, take a little time out there back in back in so actually imposter syndrome originally is kind of a term that was coined back in the 70s as with everything has been around for ages and originally was very much thought to be very female-centric something that males didn't struggle with as much but the research and Academia has gone on to find out that actually Um, just as many men struggle with imposter syndrome as women do the difference being is it impacts and holds women back more? So it's not that women and men are different in terms of experiencing it but it actually has more of an impact with women. And the reason why this is is because females hold on to criticism and their mistakes, they internalize the negatives much more than men do so, they will hold onto the the fear or they'll hold on to negative experiences a lot more which will then prove to themselves that they're not good enough at doing something women are much more likely to blame mistakes or failure on their ability than men so men more generally and obviously this is all General sweeping statements but backed up by research men are more likely to blame something external whereas women will internalize it and we'll say that it's their fault or they have a lack of ability. They have less confidence in their performance. So you can kind of see that the mindset of a female means that if you are struggling with imposter syndrome and you have that you have a greater. After tendency to internalize the negatives is going to hold you back more and the problem is with impostor syndrome is that it? It's not it doesn't tend to be debilitated. Let me say it affects. Well, I would say about 90% of my clients but starts with say it affects around 70% of high Achievers. So it's not debilitating sure. It doesn't stop people it's there, but it's there and it ends up becoming unhealthy and we can talk about kind of the impact I think and drive by. Ava and in as yes and it can drive limiting limiting Behavior because and one of the I suppose the most generic terms for a number of different behaviors, which it can play out is avoidant behavior. So if someone fears or they fear that they're not good enough and the big thing about someone with imposter syndrome is that I'm going to get found out. Yeah. I'm oh my God, I'm gonna you know today and podcast and everyone's going to find out that actually I don't know what but that's the main thing about being found out so avoidance and avoiding a number of different things to stop being seen is very common. So if you've got imposter syndrome, you might not put yourself forward for things because you don't think you'll get enough or you don't want to be seen you don't want to be found out. Well, if I do that presentation, everybody will see that Actually, I'm not as good as they think I am lying. People will lie about their achievements or what they can and can't do because they want to be seen as being light. Yeah in a certain light perfectionism so affectionate this is what interests me. Yeah. Yeah. So perfectionism is effectively if I am if I can do it perfectly. That means no one will find out but obviously perfectionism is an impossible. Yeah, it is impossible to achieve. So then what ends up happening is to on top of everything we've set ourselves impossible tasks or impossible expectations of ourselves and we don't meet it which then we don't meet our expectations. And so therefore we then feel bad about ourselves. We criticize and go there you go. I Told You So you're not actually as good as you thought you might have been dangerous. So yeah, so perfectionism is it to a certain degree It's A coping strategy. If I can if I can do this perfectly, no one will see any chink in my armor. Sure and the same as I was talking about earlier about being over-prepared. So yeah, I am someone who totally over prepares because what I want to make sure is that no one can find any holes or people wouldn't pick up anything in relation to my knowledge about something. Let's say I'm I'm kind of doing it specifically in relation to this and what I do generally on a date To day basis, but yes, another Behavior. It's an avoidant Behavior You by over preparing you avoid being caught out sure. Yeah effectively and there are a number of other. This is an interesting one and I really noticed this in myself. I know that well interestingly. I notice it more in my personal life. I'm doing my professional life avoiding making decisions really. So if you were widening, there's a difference with between the two personal and protest. Don't know I will self analyze myself on that later praised. Just something I recognize in myself because if you avoid making a decision, yeah, and you pass it on to somebody else you don't run the risk of making mistake with that decision. So if I don't decide which movie to go and see and the other person decides then it's not gonna be my fault if it's a rubbish movie. Because it's so and this is what I mean about how it trickles into so many different aspects of your life the to the point. We're making a decision about what movie to see ya you know is is a product to a certain degree of feeling like you're not good enough at something something else specific. So, yeah, so avoidant Behavior, so for in a workplace, you know, you can see how limiting that would be your it can limit To perform at their best ability or to put perform at their potential effectively because if someone fears not being able to do something you won't stretch yourself as much you keep yourself in in a comfort zone. I think that for me just thinking about my own personal experience from working in certain environments leadership at that point is extremely important. oughtn't for individuals in that aspect because if you have someone at your leader that fills you with confidence and fills you with the like the the belief that you can make those decisions and you can step up and you are good enough that can maybe help absolutely and even more importantly that it's okay to make mistakes Yeah, a hundred sent that and and it's all right, and you're not going to get you're not going to get Nothing's going to happen and actually not sure if I mentioned this in the previous podcast, but Google did a really interesting study a few years ago and trying to understand the most important factors that contribute to their High performing teams. Yeah, and the the number one factor that they found which is fascinating is psychological. Safety what we mean by that is hyper individuals who are part of a team who feel psychologically Safe, I then I'm going to be judged they're not going to be there isn't going to be negative consequences if there's a mistake or they've done something which you know out of their control or if they're feeling psychologically safe. There's more chance that they will push themselves and they will be more risky. Yeah, so they will, you know, push their goals stretch themselves and that's how you get a high performing team. So you're absolutely right from a leadership point of view. To to help work with people to help develop people who have impostor syndrome. It's about encouraging them helping people reinforcing someone's abilities or their strengths. I will come unto how actually some of the Imposter syndrome. Perhaps won't be able to hear that but more importantly is to try to cultivate a culture where it's okay to make mistakes because we're not all perfect and this is the other problem as I say, so, Yes, it's good for a leader to be able to point out someone's positives. But the problem with someone with imposter syndrome is they won't hear it. So there's what I'm saying about internalizing it. They won't internalized it so. So it's one of the things which is important if you want to start working on your imposter syndrome, it's start accepting compliments because someone who struggles with imposter syndrome if someone turns around and get that was brilliant you go. Oh not really uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah and a lot of that is driven. Well some of that could be driven from and I don't know if we can weave this back into now where this all kind of comes from a core belief perhaps that you know again, If I accept that compliment that means I'm arrogant if I accept that compliment what I'm saying is yeah, you're right. I'm good, but we but we have grown up or our beliefs about ourselves that it's not it's not right to do that or if we have grown up in a situation where perhaps praise haven't been given so we don't know how to accept it another. the interesting area is the whole kind of self-esteem movement that has happened along the way and I know we touched on this in the last podcast with regards to Parenting that kind of started in the 80s, which is all about Encouraging yes, encouraging participation but people being rewarded regardless of the kind of outcome. And so actually if you've got somebody who's grown up in that kind of that the situation where you are rewarded for whatever you have done it slightly confusing to know what you accept compliments for. Is that something that I've done is that good? Isn't that good and sure unsure? Yeah. And if you've grown up in a situation where you know family myths and labels, you know, your fat your family environment is so so important in relation to this in families you tend to have you kind of get a label kids get labels. You're the funny one the naughty one unit intelligent one and we end up kind of living up to that label. So actually if you have grown up and you haven't been the successful one. And the intelligent one it feels uncomfortable equally if you've grown up in a situation where you are the intelligent one and maybe your sibling isn't you have potentially tried not to internalize that because it's felt uncomfortable with with you with your siblings. So there's there's so many aspects but the reality is the core your conditional worth is based on your core beliefs and your core beliefs to recap your core beliefs are the rules and the beliefs that you have about yourself the world and Is the are formed along the way I always refer to a bit like a blueprint. We all have our own unique blue blueprint that has been created throughout our lives and the rules that we have applied to ourselves. Like don't accept don't accept compliments because you'll be arrogant and more to appoint the deeper core belief. That is it's not good to be arrogant and then you'll associate things like internalizing success as being arrogant. When actually it's not it's not so your core belief structure is effectively what determines your beliefs about what success is about and what success should be about. When does that develop mean? I mean that was I'm sure there's no specific age criteria where your core beliefs are generated, but it is that is that More toward is it is it done unconsciously almost in a way through your childhood era teenage years. I mean or does it carry on going? I mean surely there's comes a point where that's just the way you think and unless somebody tells you like you go to a psychotherapist to whoever tries to kind of encourage that flexibility of thinking surely. There's a comes a point where it's kind of ends and you're just start with how you view yourself it. Never end. It never ends. Right. Okay. So when I say it never ends that okay to answer your first question. When does it start it starts from the moment? You're born we emerged why not? No, I suppose not not totally because we don't have high-level cognitive function at that point. But once we are starting to recognize, you know, what how do we get reward? How will we reward? What behaviors do we need to do to be rewarded? What behaviors evoke positives and negatives from from people we start make we start making rules about the world so and generally speaking I'm not saying it has to be a big dramatic kind of moment in time. But obviously the more influential moments in Life or as I've said that kind of context that the culture that your whole environment sits in where you see It where your role is how your parents parent you all those aspects contribute and it continues because it might be that you know, it might be that somebody hasn't had any of those types of rules and they get into their teenage years, maybe no in all of a sudden they have an experience which shatters their beliefs about themselves and it starts rewiring their core belief. It might be I mean I tend to find Again, a lot of a real transition point for people and we're imposter syndrome can really emerge is when people start working so and I definitely think I can that it resonates with me because I think to a certain degree you have a bit of a pathway as a child and as a teenager you go to school and and you do it you work your way through and then you do GCSE and your gcses then impact the a-levels and then you do your a levels. And then you know that point for whatever reason it wasn't even decision to make about going to University for me. It was just and then I do my a levels and then I go to university and you've got this kind of Pathways set up and you know, I'm someone who worked very hard potentially because of my imposter syndrome and and then you get kind of you come out over all of that and then all of a sudden you're out in the real world and you're in this whole kind of Text that is unfamiliar and you don't know where you should be going or what necessarily you should be doing. There's no path where there's a reason that there's no pathway anymore now, but that's the way your mind almost things because you've been through a pathway that there should be a pathway. Yes, and and then when you're not on a pathway you start and then Self Doubt creeps the Self Doubt Creeps in and then as we discussed before in terms of our emotional regulation systems are fight or fight or flee. I flee our fear kicks in And then if we are someone that doesn't recognize that self-criticism will fuel that we start criticizing ourselves criticizing ourselves. And then we just fuel any believe negative beliefs that we have about our capabilities. So and then okay, we'll keep going and we perhaps we've created some limiting conditional worth based rules. Can it you know, is it just that's the way we think it is the way that we think up until the point where we give ourselves. Has the opportunity to rewire that thinking we go back to the plasticity of our brains that we once we are aware and that's the first stage with everything. Once you are aware that perhaps this is something that's going on for you. Then you can do something about it. Yeah, so recognizing the behaviors that are associated with a positive. What are the how do people think you know, is that how do you how do you qualify success? What are the goals and the expectations that you that you put on yourself? These are all the sorts of questions that you need to ask yourself and kind of say well these helping me or or the limiting me and then it's a case of work a letter. How do we reframe that? Hmm something. I was just thinking of that so imposter syndrome like kind of touched on that. It can be a driving force in a way something that keeps you going and it may not be the right thing to say but in a way that could be like a positive thing. Yeah, is that right to say because it's kind of driving you even though it's not necessarily healthy. When does it start to become really unhealthy it in high Achievers. So if when they just never fulfill, yes, essentially. Yes when the when it's never good enough, right? Yeah when you're always wanting to move forward something. And I was chasing something. Yeah, and so you're absolutely right. The drive sitar drive system is really important to us so our drive system. So this isn't a Beer by the way, this is kombucha. I'm not sure. What's the time 20 past 10:00? Why not? Yeah, you don't you drive systems really important. It's really important to ignite your drive system because it's our reward system. It makes us feel positive. It makes us feel good. So absolutely and kind of talked about that kind of healthy balanced. It's all about getting that healthy balance, but the difference when we're talking about something like imposter syndrome is that you're worth your sense of worthiness. Is dependent upon this specific thing. So yes, it's great to be able to be driven and you know that again, there's nothing wrong with being prepared for a presentation and it's okay to go. So if we didn't friendship between the two let's use doing a presentation for example a healthy way to go if a presentation hasn't gone. Well is to be okay. Presentation didn't go particularly well, and maybe I didn't prepare well enough for it to someone who has imposter syndrome that goes that presentation didn't go well, I am useless. I'm rubbish see I'm not capable. I shouldn't be in this fear. I'm not I'm not good enough. So it's when it becomes conditional about your sense of self and who you are and you're worth your sense of worth is impacted by it. So that's the I suppose that's the difference and In relation to City High Flyers and why am I saying City the high flies High Achievers anywhere is you're absolutely right is getting to a point where your definition of success means. Actually you do experience that sense of achievement because if we're always setting ourselves goals that are too high or where a perfectionist all the elements that are potentially associated with it. We're never going to get that sense of achievement. We're always going to feel like we haven't haven't achieved and therefore we become self-critical and as soon as you start being self-critical you start evoking anxiety underlying anxiety and in the end it can impact massively impact your men. Do you know your your mental you mental health? Yeah. I mean I'm speaking about this and it's is funny. Like we said will refer back to stuffy suppose by in the first so we did together all I'm hearing with this is the background of it for me is the importance of that flexibility again, like as a mindset and being able to realize that Those seem those limiting self-doubts those core beliefs. If you can sort of fine tune your brain to realize that nothing is ever constant concern is that the right word nothing's ever permanent the new kind of free yourself up again to almost combat this imposter syndrome is that fair to absolutely and I suppose that kind of going back to the comment earlier. Do you know do you get to a point where that is it? That is just how your mind thinks know. You know, not at all. It's but it's the way it is how your mind has been thinking but you need to be open to not. You know using phrases like well, that's just the way I am. That's just the way I think this is this is me, that's me because then it doesn't give you the freedom to change the way that you view yourself change the way that you think which will actually give you the ability to embrace and Own It own your success own what you have done on your efforts. I mean, I definitely I think one of my most Underlines, which is a cliched. So I need to change it Abby not good at all. If someone says may I can you could you send me through that presentation? I found it really interesting or or I'll go I've got a document I've written on that. I'll send it through to you. If you know if you need a good night's sleep read it, you know, and and it's kind of like that. Yeah that automatic response that I've done it. It's all right. Hmm. I'm sure it's not brilliant. You know, I'm sure someone else could do it better. But here you go have it. Yeah, you know and it's that sort of mentality that then just stops you from owning what you've done and going yes, well done me and and again that comes back to where people have issues with owning stuff because potentially they worry about how that how they would be viewed as being arrogant or being someone that just kind of high fives themselves the whole time. Yeah, that's Do you need to be able to own an internalized as I say women almost need to work? Well women definitely need to work harder at doing that because our brains have a tendency a much greater tendency to to to look for the negatives. I mean, you know our brains all of us males and females have this, you know, we have a negative bias our brains rather annoyingly will As pick up on the negatives over will generally will pick up on negatives more so or negative stimulus more than positive. It's about it's a survival mechanism, but women are pre-programmed. It appears to pick up on the Moor and we will just internalize it and hold that close to us. Whereas men are much better at moving on Beyond. Actually interesting and you would I'm sure you will corroborate this. It's also just little things like, you know, men are much better at criticizing each other. So the band, you know kind of bloke banter. Yeah is men are more likely to kind of not criticize but the kind of throw judgment out criticizes banter with their mates. They're better at doing that than women some of the things that I hear, you know, Robot husband what you kind of go can't believe you say that to each other and women we don't generally as much we it's not that we don't have banter but we generally are not used to throwing kind of criticism out because there's a fear that someone would take it the wrong way. Yeah, but you know so again and I'm just I suppose this is just talking about what contributes to women being more or women. Saying they're not kind of used to moving on from criticism as well as as well as men. Yeah, basically it's interesting though because like males. I mean like there's there's there's an increasing amount of suicide and depression and anxiety coming out but males now recent it's better over the last what 10 15 years. So maybe that do you ever think that that's just the way the mail males are is just a defense mechanism for imposter syndrome in a way like they just kind of what swipe it under the rug and that I mean for me as an example, like I'm not Jake and I mean my mates would always we love me saying this but some of the banter that we've had over the years even though you laugh and joke about it the time it sticks in there and it and it and it for me as an individual it kind of points in my life when I was not in the best head space it would create that core belief about myself, so I mean do you think do you yeah from research and stuff like same do you think that that is Not changing but do you think males just use defense mechanisms to kind of avoid it more? I don't know. Yeah, maybe it could be. Yeah could be a man. I don't have the specific research. Yeah, but the reality is were what we do know is that men don't talk about things as much as women with much. We're much better at talking about things and as we know with the brain if we can discuss stuff and discuss our you know, our negative beliefs that are going round and round and we actually bounce off other people. There's more chance that we can kind of there's more chance of us reframing it when we stay in our head. We are literally kind of having the same conversation over and over and that can just either just deepen that and and stop you from kind of moving on from it. So yes, it's I think as I said earlier the fact that It affects men and women differently differently. Sorry, it affects it affects men and women equally in terms of numbers, but I think women are I don't know approaching it or dealing with it more than men who wouldn't talk about it. So so yes, I think I think some really cool to talk about would be like anyone listen to this. I mean, what are some characteristics of Syndrome that if you are now speaking someone you can kind of recognize. Yeah, you'd be able to recognize. I mean is there like a list or yeah, I mean as I say, there's kind of go back to that cognitive behavioral model, which I talked about in the first podcast that we have our thoughts our behaviors our physical self and our emotions are all are all kind of mixed up and feed and into play and interweave with each other. So in terms of Identifying and that's what I would do. I suppose if I'm from working with someone is identify the way that common behaviors or common common thought patterns, which are associated with someone who's struggling with imposter syndrome. So again from a behavioral point of view, it would be there's a lot of those avoidant behaviors that people do not putting themselves forward for fear of being seen hiding away from doing things again in case they get found out that there are fraud. Procrastination, you know, I'm not going to do that again it when you do something you you increase the risk of something failing or you making mistakes. So you procrastinate and put stuff off what else in terms of behaviourally? Lying as I said earlier avoiding making decisions all these sorts of things will contribute and then on out from a from a thought if we look at our thoughts or identify thoughts are associated. You've got the core beliefs which are the deeper rooted stuff around. I'm not good enough, but from a day-to-day perspective, you've got all those responses how people respond to compliments or They respond to themselves. So I achieve that because I was lucky. Oh, I I was able to get into that presentation because they were just being really kind or they like me no not not actually identifying your effort and internalizing your success down to down to you self-criticism is just everywhere but self it's you know again being Very self-critical towards yourself is another area which would pinpoint well as I say so of criticism can be broad enough for many different aspects of someone psychological Health, but if someone is also self-criticism Crystal don't know why I'm struggling with that word tackle with themselves again, it feels that impostor syndrome. It's kind of like their see told you so see I told you you were not good enough for that. So they're all absolutely different aspects that you can identify with in relation to the Imposter syndrome, but the core and the root of it at the end of the day will be about your core beliefs that are based around conditional worth. What are your beliefs about the way you need to be or what you need to do that leaves you feeling worthy. That's what it comes down to so sometimes people do need help and support to understand that root problem, but equally Lie, there are you know, there's stuff that we can do. Without kind of understanding the root problems well and at the end of the day, like I said, it's exposing. I mentioned earlier about accepting compliments for example changing the way that we think and behave for a lot of things and especially in relation to this because to a certain degree. I kind of feel like I liken it to a bit to a kind of phobia. It's a phobia. It's a fear of being found out so actually exposure exposure therapy. Is what's really important to help people overcome fears and phobias of things which is effectively you have to expect you have to expose yourself to the thing that you fear. So let's work on an obvious one with spiders if I'm doing exposure therapy with some who's Arachnophobia quic, I have to say I never have done you don't start by bringing a tarantula against the room you start by talking about spiders and then you show them a picture and then you work your way up. So To help someone get over there imposter syndrome, especially if they've been avoiding a limiting limiting themselves in certain ways. You have to get them to expose themselves to situations that actually almost allows them to make mistakes allows them to own aspects which aren't perfect for them, you know start where the the the the risks on massively high and then you just help someone gradually expose themselves to situations that they would avoid generally for. Ever being found out and also working with the evidence, you know, you have to sometimes really point out evidence to people so at the end of the day if it was small little tips, like right the end of the day think about good things that you have achieved today. And what why did why did that happen? What did you contribute towards that success? It's almost forcing people to recognize and understand what they have done to make something happen. Or what what what did they do to create that success because what the mind will automatically do would be to associate it with something else or someone else so true. So you have to override that reinforce it do it over and over again as we know to change that neural pathway of disregarding your own efforts or aspects of yourself, which contributes towards your success. It's also so so unbelievably true and It's really funny when searing some you actually speak about it. All I think about is my dad just really really really weird. It's like he actually had him on the podcast and if you haven't listened to each time, it's a really good one. They well it's fascinating episode 50 and he's actually says talks about luck. He talks about he says I'm not been extremely lucky my whole life and I'm like, do you actually really do you honestly believe that because I don't think I believe in like, I think you create create your own and You know as much as I kind of speak am I my own successes so far, you know, I always put it down something else happening and never any myself but him I mean he has done over 200 shows worldwide and the Western Railway. He's worked with some of the best films of all time and it's still talks about luck and he's very self-critical and it's just like it's Bonkers is really Bonkers like someone that has worked that hard and there's that talented. It's never his own hard work and graph that's got in there. It's very straight is very it's really strange. But again, it will and it drives him still the guys the guys nearly 80 and he's and he's like and he and I and I was saying this is my girlfriend yesterday. I was like, I think he's still I think he's still working to prove to whoever himself that he is worthy. Of you know, I'm glad he's still working his keep sitting going to get going. But I think he's still chasing something and it's it's just and that's it. You can see that the the kind of the conflict or the disparity between it being healthy that drive being healthy and potentially at being unhealthy, you know, and in relation to your to your dad. again, I would I wouldn't know and I would hate to make assumption but if there's a core belief there that actually to say yes II did this makes him feel like he's being arrogant about something when the reality is, of course people certain people have have potentially or situations have emerged which are out of your control which have contributed so That's fine to acknowledge that there is an element of luck to things that are totally out of our control. But if you solely attribute it to luck that again, that's the difference. Once again, I'm talking about the Continuum, you know, it's it's fine and and realistic to to acknowledge that certain things have happened that you don't know how they've happened and actually the perhaps sometimes you have been. The right time the right place, but you have put yourself there and then you've acted upon it and you've acted upon it. So it is a combination but it's the dangerous bit is where you never you never attribute it to what you have done also on the other side of the coin. I mean from what I've read about him passenger in the past is it hinders people a lot from ever reaching because they're too afraid of I'm not sure how much I've raised is that the hindered in terms of the true potential in a way, right? So yeah, I mean, is that something that you commonly? Yeah. So again, it kind of feeds into the avoidant behavior. Yeah. It's very difficult to reach your full potential. If you won't stretch yourself and put yourself in situations where there is a fear that you might be uncovered. We all have to to push ourselves and to reach our full potential we have Stretch, we have to have stretched goals. Yeah, we have to we have to put ourselves in situations that don't feel comfortable. And so yes someone with imposter syndrome will avoid or hide away from those sorts of situations potentially not all of them. But you know, not everyone with imposter syndrome does that but there some people will which will limit their ability to reach their full potential because there are not stretching themselves. They're there to Too fearful of being found out. Mmm. So interest I mean at this kind of leaves on like full circle. I mean, although this is not know like personal therapy kind of say way but there are other ways of Working on it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I don't want to my biggest fear at the moment is that we're actually a level here at the gym was moving very nicely and you know, I'm suddenly taken two mornings off a week from the gym where I'm sleeping and I tie wake up more stressed and more anxious. When I do that then when I'm here at six o'clock in the morning because I feel That's I can't I got too comfortable I should be doing so I shouldn't I don't feel like I deserve to be sleeping in I don't deserve late for like if I'm not working under 16 18 hour day. I feel like I'm I'm not working hard enough. And yeah, I mean, that's crazy. I don't particularly want I do want another challenge. I'm ready for another challenge. I'm looking forward to opening up the gym bench. Really, but I just don't think that that's like a relentlessness that could potentially destroy and that is looking online when I when we talked about doing this one. That was my main kind of thinking When I Look to myself, I don't want to be that person that's never happy. Hmm. So I mean for anyone that's listening which there will be many that kind of think in similar ways. What kind of things could you date? I mean in specifically to you and what you just said there. It all comes down to to a certain degree how you are defining. It's your it's how you are defining. What success looks like. It's how you are defining what being motivated. Business owner looks like so the moment you've created this rule that to demonstrate your commitment to work. You need to be working this amount of time. For you to be seen as successful or to you to feel like you're being successful you need to work this amount. So a lot of imposter syndrome is is about redefining what success means to you. What does it look? Like? What does a motivated driven Hayden look like? Because at the moment you've got an expectation of yourself, which is it limits you because actually what it doesn't do massively what we talked about last time is doesn't give you as much ability to have down time alone time resting time just time out from from the business which is so so important. So it is about redefining a lot of this is about redefining what how how we perceive. Ourselves in relation to being successful sure. Yeah makes sense. And then as I said, it's it is about in terms of what we can do. It's about looking at what our core beliefs are rules the shoulds and shoulds and the shouldn'ts what are they? Is that working for us? Is it is it relevant to the evidence that you have around your capabilities and abilities in certain things. It's about exposing yourself to the things. That you feel uncomfortable and more importantly again is working with yourself criticism. It's working and relearning how to use compassion and kindness. and that it's okay to kind of be your your own biggest fan to a certain degree, you know, you've got to give yourself. You've got to give yourself permission to be able to take time out. That doesn't redefine your commitment. Yeah. Well, it doesn't challenge your commitment to work or who you are or what this needs to be. You know, there's as a number of different things, but they're the kind of the core the core things. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. Go I got some friends who are business owners as well and the rule equally successful in their in their own right and it's just funny to see how they all kind of deal with it. It's funny. It's um, it's just that it's a like I love this reason. I saw the podcasters this demographic that I'm trying I want people to tune in and listen like the 20s that sort of early 30s a kind of this is an important time for the next 20 years of your life in terms of how you feel about yourself and and a sustainable, you know way of living. I mean, it's a critical time and one of the problems that we have especially in relation to people in the 20s or the up and coming Generations is that we live in a culture of validation and approval. Hmm. And again, if we think about imposter syndrome is about conditional worth we are constantly looking to do Things that will gain the approval and confirmation that we're good enough at something. So if you think about what social media does for that we are living in a culture where validation and approval is core to so many people's lives. So remember a few weeks ago. Tuning into Piers Morgan on ITV in the morning because they would they were talking about or actually he was kind of debating around what Instagram had done. They were testing in Canada taking off the like button in Instagram because and they've done it from a kind of social responsibility. Sorry things to to try to quash this whole approval and validation and the impact that it's having on people psychological health I'm Pace was getting very up to you about it because he was getting fed up with everybody talking about mental health and actually in this ground is just a fun thing that he disengages with them. But the problem is that's great. He's got it kind of suss, he uses Instagram as a fun source of promoting himself or finding stuff out but for some people and I'm actually dare I say the majority of people it is a platform for validation and approval. It's if you know what I watched so funny that is come to this. I've been thinking about it at points during this chart. I watched a video on YouTube on the weekend of Simon sinek. Have you ever heard of this guy? He's unbelievable speaker, and he talks about the millennial generation and how social media I want to get this really bang on how social media is. It's a drug. It's essentially a drug because we're in a generation now. We're like you said we've kind of had that pathway. We've been kind of model to an extent a lot of us and you you're you're awarded things throughout those years. And then once you go into the wide big wide world, you know, you're not necessarily going to be given something just because you've showed up. Yeah. and he talks then he then talks on to you know how Millennials going into the workplace why depression anxiety is so so high and that's a reason and then he goes on to talk about social media and he said, You're the validation is to an extent. It becomes a drug because every time you look at your phone, you'll gain hit you're getting a hit of dopamine and when you get when you get a like and if you're if you're if suddenly you don't you're not getting the likes and you know, I'm I doing something wrong. I was going on, you know, you start to doubt yourself. And then that's another Avenue for you to turn increases, you know, depression and anxiety anxiety to creep in and it's yeah, it's a Really as a really frightening. It's a really frightening frightening thing that it's got to this point. But some of my peers moving a users of fun and I try and use it in that in that aspect as well. But you know, it's I see a lot of people where you know, it gets to that point where you know, they're soaked so so concerned about what their personal images and how it's being translated to everyone else and whether they're getting the positive reinforcement from it is yeah, this is and then when you're and that turns Into the positive reinforcement from something external and actually something you're really out of control of versus how you positively reinforce yourself. Yeah. Yeah, and it is it is something that ends up being out of control if we're relying on other people to to validate us and to validate what we're doing on a day-to-day basis because we're posting pictures off of what we're doing and what we're eating or Wait list is endless but we open ourselves up and we open our lives up to be judged and to either be invalidated or not. And so you're right if imposter syndrome won't get anything. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's why it's probably becoming more and more and more prevalent because of because of the culture and the world that we live in because our worth for the day ends up being conditional on the amount of likes that we have received. To Graham and Facebook dark on is it is when you really think about our concert, isn't it? But that is the word that world that we live in and again if you stay on autopilot and it becomes the norm which it does for many people. Then you will just excuse you won't be aware of what's going on or how it's impacting you. So it's it's really important. If you're if you're struggling with the special as I say that a kind of underlying anxiety that can just bubble and bubble. If you're constantly needing the Val endure the validation from other people. To have a sense of worthiness. Hmm. Honestly. I find this absolutely fascinating. I really appreciate you coming down and talking to an enough for you. Probably before I was born hours if there's anything in particular you think be worthy of finishing on it already if you think we've covered majority of but honestly, it's it's an unbelievably interesting topic and I really hope people, you know, really get a good down there over this because this is this is really really important stuff it is and it really is and my only comfort Sign off statement would be just Own It Own It Stars start practicing what it feels like to own it and it will feel uncomfortable but own, you know have a look at the successes at the end of each day. It's a really really simple thing what's going well today and what did I do to contribute towards that that's one very simple basic kind of exercise that you can do with yourself to start getting your brain used to identifying and paying attention to the effort that you put into the things that go well. A hundred percent. I'm going to start doing that myself, please do thanks so much for this. I really appreciate it.
What is ‘Imposter Syndrome’? Impostor Syndrome is characterized by the conviction that you don't deserve your success. It is the feeling that you're not as intelligent, creative or talented as other people seem to believe you are. It is the suspicion that your achievements are down to luck, good timing or just being in the right place at the right time. And it is accompanied by the fear that, one day, you'll be exposed as a fraud. On this episode I have back on the show Dr Vanessa Moulton. I spoke to Vanessa briefly about this topic after we stopped recording our last episode and I was really eager to get her back on to talk about this. I have struggled with imposter syndrome that last two years specifically and was really excited to hear the views and  knowledge of somebody who deals with seeing it in people everyday. What we spoke about in this fascinating episode:   What is imposter syndrome. The gender difference when it comes to imposter syndrome. How imposter syndrome can hinder your full potential. The importance of flexibility of thought in this regard. How can you work on it? My personal mindset when it comes dealing with my own ‘Imposter Syndrome’   How we create rules in our own mind and how we must define our own meaning of success. How validation and approval from external sources, i.e social media, can be detrimental. 