If you're listening to this you obviously like podcasts and you probably like music to on Spotify. You can listen to all of that in one place for free. You don't need a premium account on Spotify. You can follow your favorite podcast. So you never miss an episode download episodes to listen offline, wherever you are easily share what you're listening to with your friends via spotify's Integrations with social platforms, like Instagram Spotify is a huge catalogue of podcasts on every topic including the one you're listening to right now just search for empty frames on the Spotify app or browse podcasts in your library Tab and follow me. So you never miss an episode of empty frames Spotify is the world's leading music streaming service and now it can be your go-to for podcasts to On March 18th 1990 the most audacious art Heist of all time took place at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum in Boston. Check out season one of empty frames for a 12-episode dive into the Gardner Heist this season, we will be exploring other art crimes and significant moments in the art world before returning to the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. Least this is empty frames. Welcome back to empty frames. I'm Tim here today with Lance in the crawlspace studios in worm Town Lance. How goes it it's going pretty well. How are you today? I'm doing great. I tried to riff just long enough to get me. My coffee because that's what I do right before we need to talk. I take a big swing a cough. Well, this episode is pretty interesting Lance. We again talk to Paul turbo hendry's really become an our partner on this, uh, our go-to in the empty frames world in the world of art heists art crimes significant moments in art history and back by popular demand not only through necessity on our end, but the crowd really likes them too. He's so knowledgeable he Blogs about the case. So check out his Blog the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum Heist case. Yeah and all cases and about our crime in general to yeah. There's he's got a Blog called Art hostage and you can link to them in the show notes that are also about art crime and he's just an interesting guy. He's been at this for a long time Lance started off as a knocker. That's somebody who will case a home for artwork something that could be stolen so he then Delivers that information back to the people that are going to go steal it so we started off as a criminal and now he's a go-between a liaison between people who are involved in our crimes and law enforcement and he writes about it and he does research all the time. He helps recover pieces of art. So that's what we're talking about. Here is his involvement in the recovery of DaVinci's Madonna. So we're talking about Leonardo DaVinci heard of them his version of Madonna of the yarn Winder. Really interesting painting. It's a woman holding a baby and there's also another version It's the Virgin Mary holding Jesus. Oh, well, yeah, that's a woman holding a baby and it was stolen from the Duke of buccleuch who could be Clues Castle. He just kept it behind a glass door like a glass encasement and these guys came in very as all art crime. All heists are very Brazen. They come in they grabbed it. They jump out the window a car chase ensues. But I'm not going to give it away to everybody right now turbo does a much better job as we just hop on and go for go for the turbo ride. All right, so buckle up everybody and enjoy this episode and we will be back in two weeks with our season finale of season 2 of empty frames. Thank you very much for listening. All welcome back to empty frames. How are you doing today? I'm doing great guys. Yeah, thanks a lot for joining us again here back by popular demand and also by necessity every time we look into something significant in the art crime or just general art World We tend to get into the underbelly of it and then we just tend to come right back to Paul turbo Paul Henry because he's got his finger on the pulse of everything. So back by popular demand and backed by necessity and what are we talking about today Paul? All well, she died. I'm going to take you on a journey which involves the theft of the Madonna of the yarn Winder by Leonardo DaVinci. It's one of only two versions known there's the version we're going to talk about which is owned by the Duke of buccleuch. And there's another version that's in America called the Lansdowne Madonna So This is the Leonardo DaVinci, right? What is he famous for? Leonardo da Vinci's famous, obviously for the Mona Lisa for his drawings and for being the general renaissance man in the Medici period So real quick, what's the difference between the buccleuch Madonna and the Lansdowne Madonna, which you said is in America and we're in America is that one? What was the Lions down with Donna is held in a private collection. And if you look at that, you can see mountains in the background which are lacking in the Duke of buccleuch version and Experts of come to the conclusion that the Lansdowne Madonna is partially painted by. Leonardo DaVinci and the Duke of buccleuch Madonna of the yarn Winder by Leonardo. Da Vinci was mostly painted by him a very very large amount. Why is there some discrepancy here? Well at the time when Leonardo da Vinci was painting he would have a studio and a lot of students he would be painting so many different works of art that sometimes he students would finish them off but I would do is perhaps little things like I don't know what A tree or or something like that. So you may not get a full 100% painting by Leonardo da Vinci. It's a lot of artists around that period or even throughout our history that the if they're fact when they're famous in their lifetime. They would have students and if they paint a serious amount then sometimes the students would complete them. Okay. So let me just see if I can figure this out a little bit more. So there's these two paintings that look nearly identical one of them. Is painted almost completely by DaVinci and the other one was probably started by DaVinci in front of his students and may be finished by a student. Well, yeah, I mean that's that's bicycle. Yeah, you know, the conversion is regarded as probably the primary version and you can tell by the six fingers on Virgin Mary's left hand in the Lansdowne version. I'm totally I'm totally kidding. I'm just kidding us are left hand. To be honest with you. I think it's extremely difficult to actually unless unless you're on and forensic expert to be able to distinguish them. You know, all we can say is it's one of the you know, it's one of the great artworks of the world. Okay, cool. Yeah, what's a little bit of the history here with the buccleuch one? I'm the Duke of buccleuch, I think bullshit at auction in I think 1787 or around that time and it's been in the family ever since and he's a he's Scottish Rite yet. The Duke of buccleuch is Scotland's largest landowner. He's an aristocrat and you know a member of the British Irish aristocracy and you know, probably half if not more of Scotland and class land Holdings. All around the world, you know, one of those quite old money goes back hundreds and hundreds of years that that don't ever really get mentioned to be honest with you. Yeah. I've never heard of a Duke of buccleuch and I call Lance the Duke of worm town, but it's kind of just an affectionate nickname because of our location here in Worcester. Yeah. Well, yes, I mean to be honest with you. It's it's subjective. You're a Duke I'ma Do For All Dukes. So Duke turbo when this painting was stolen. What is the story there? How did it get stolen right now strap yourself in for the turbo right on The DaVinci Madonna art Heist of 2003 awesome. Click it or ticket. Exactly. Yes in August 2003 two young men paid an entrance fee to drum Larry castle in Scotland home with the Duke of buccleuch to view the artworks and posed as tourists when they got to the room, which was Under the Staircase which had a cabinet which housed the Madonna of the yarn Winder by Leonardo DaVinci. There was one guard there. She was a young lady I think student one of the Thieves threatened her with a knife why the while the other Thief open the cabinet took out Madonna of the yarn Winder by Leonardo DaVinci and they both took off and jumped out of the window fled across the grass where they were confronted by two actual tourists from New Zealand and they responded don't worry. This is a practice with the police and they run to their vehicle that on the way to there. Vehicle they took the actual Madonna of the yarn Winder painting out of the frame through the front frame on the floor jumps in there Volkswagen and drove off at high speed. How large is this painting? Probably the size of I don't know probably 15 20 inches taken out of its frame. It's quite portable. You could put it under your coat. So anyway, so anyway, they're getting their Volkswagen. They drive off for one mile. Where they switch cars, they then set light to the to the Volkswagen and then they flee in the second car to Glasgow in Scotland, right? They then stashed The DaVinci Madonna. And wait for the initial. Blowback from the global media want to go back real quick to the castle drum drum land rig dram. Lari lari. Okay, this is a gigantic castle. Correct. This is a pizza my Z's everything, you know, we would Envision from the word Castle. It makes it makes Downton Abbey look like a two-up two-down. Not sure what that means but it doesn't sound good a TV show exported from the UK to the United States. So a lot of people in America would know of the TV Show Downton Abbey, which is filled in this huge mansion, but drum Larry Castle is Mega huge. Okay, okay, and they they escaped through a window was this a window that was on the first floor or second floor or seventh floor? It was the first row the ground floor ground for? Oh, okay. Yeah. I was housed in a cabinet with a glass from which you could open below the staircase. Of one of the staircases in from Larry Castle on the ground floor. That's pretty impressive that these guys pulled this off in 2003. You were not talking about the gardener how he's from 1990 when technology wasn't where it's at today 2003. There was still some pretty significant technology technological ways to prevent ice and just to just to go into the castle and simply open up a glass panel and then hop out the window and you said they burned the car as well, right? Yeah that a promise possible even 2019 you have homes in the UK and across Europe which are open to the public and by that very nature. It's extremely hard to provide a lot of security. So to be honest with you in America. Yes museums and homes. They do have a lot of security but in Europe and UK and Scotland, especially security is normally a secondary issue. Because I want to allow the public free access to the works of art and on the other question of burning out the vehicle. Yes, they fade from drum lowered castle with the Volkswagen. They they swap cars set light to the Volkswagen and strayed off towards Glasgow so they had a car waiting for him. Yes. Wow. Yes. Of course. I did and soon as they got back to Glasgow within a very very short period of time hours. Perhaps the truck. DaVinci Madonna was sold by the thieves to the Daniel crime family for $50,000 which doesn't sound a lot for a 50 million dollar painting. But for the thieves it was a day's wages a day's work. Well $25,000 each, you know for two three hours work. So the Daniel family and a Scottish Godfather of the criminal underworld called George Allen Shaw purchase T2 V2. Madonna shortly after the heist for $50,000. Okay. Let's back up real quick here. Do we know who the thieves were? Now that is a subject of debate because they left some DNA there and police have been unable to trace that DNA leading to two conclusions one that they had never had any criminal convictions and had their DNA taken before or more likely they probably weren't British. They may have been Eastern European or Europeans. So yes, the police currently still have that DNA but have not been able to match it to anyone. Okay is the method Of switching cars. Is that something common that we see in art crime during a getaway? Yes. I mean, I'm not crying if you're going to rob a country house, you might have a van and you would fill it up and then soon as you leave and get down the road and split the hole into which means that if you know, if one gets caught at least you've got half the hall so yes, I mean those things do happen Okay, and now you said that the weeded somewhere for the blowback from the media before they did anything else. So what was the what was that like again? Can you repeat that? And and how long was it that they waited there off to the heist the thieves got back to Glasgow and they went back to where they were living and within hours they met with someone from the Daniel crime family and gave them the DaVinci Madonna and they received $50,000 in cash. And then I just went about their life and they've never been heard of since okay. So this happened really quick. So it wasn't like they waited very long. So they sold it on the day. They stole it the guy's a sound or the following day or IV two days later, you know it was done for them. It was a commodity. Yeah, it was a commodity they stolen something which took a couple of hours. They sold it for $50,000 right to a combination of George Allen short and the Scottish guy. Father and the Daniel crime family. So now they are in possession of the davichi Madonna and they wrap it up and put it away and let the heat die down. I'm getting the sense that this might have been a pre-arranged thing. Do you think that this crime family and Shaw contacted these thieves and said we want the the Madonna or did they say get us something by DaVinci? It could have been he's all the things could have come. Across from Larry castle and sing a holy security during a previous visit and thought okay. We're still that and they know that they could sell stolen items to the Daniel family be they a DVD player a diamond ring or a DaVinci Madonna for a nominal amount. Yes. Some of the Daniel family could have had intelligence that drum. Larry Castle was vulnerable and the most valuable thing. Is that the Richie madano Whatever happened the theft happened and Daniel crime family and Georgia and short had possession of The DaVinci Madonna within a short period of time now selling stolen art that quickly is that something that happens most of the time some of the time or well, yes, I would say most of the time because first of all you have to remember not 99% of stolen art are not DaVinci, Madonna's. Are not Picasso's that they are works of art that are worth $10,000 $100,000 and maybe a million dollars but mostly 10 20 $30,000 so they can be sold on to a fence or a or a pawnbroker for a relatively small amount but even big things yes, of course you nishal things get an amount of money, which they're happy with for their day's work. It doesn't matter that davichi Madonna's worth 50 million dollars. It could have been worth. $500,000 $50,000 to those thieves will that afternoon's work or that morning's work right for them was fine. And so that was the end of that but the Journey For The DaVinci Madonna was only just beginning to pretty good hourly rate. I'd say yeah that works to be about a little bit more than minimum wage little bit more than what we make here crawfish. Media is a little bit. Yeah. Okay. So you just said the journey for this Madonna was just the beginning before you get into. To the continuation of the journey. Did you hear about this in 2003 when it happened? When were you were you immediately on the case obviously, and obviously it was a mouth-watering prospect to delve into there were rumors that it was the Scottish that it was a Scottish underworld that had possession of this painting. And I heard that initially it was wrapped up and it was hidden away in the Scottish city of Perth for about 12 months. How do you hear that? How does that information come to Turbo through contacts within the the art world the underworld also through law enforcement and the insurance industry as well, you know, and that ended up being credible. Yes. I mean to be honest with you looking back most of the information that I managed to obtain. Tain was accurate when we look back upon the case and how it developed. I mean I was in contact with the art loss adjuster who was brought in by the insurers hiscox a man called Mark Dalrymple from day one. I think I spoke to in the next day. And so to be honest with you, you know, I had my fingers in all the pies from day one really do people come to you. Did that guy come to you or did you reach out to him? Oh, you know I Mark Dalrymple for years and he I think he found me or I called him and said, what do you think about that? You know the DaVinci's gone missing and so it will be a case of you know at that stage. He wasn't even employed as the art loss adjuster but in the subsequent days and weeks he took over the case and we used to speak on a regular basis. Is there anybody in the UK that you don't know I think you can extend that in the global art crime weld from law enforcement. The underworld insurers themes victims there probably isn't anyone that. I don't know podcasters. Yeah, that's fair. But cost is yes. How is that? You're just a social butterfly or how do you know have so many contacts in this world? I don't know. I mean I suppose. Years of experience, you know, I started out on the wrong side of the tracks so to speak got an education and now I'm sort of a social commentator on the ark crime world. I mean, it's a quite an untapped weld that the very few people can consider themselves experts. I mean, you could name them on one hand the experts on our crime turbo Turbo. You know from each different angle and I find myself in my little beach house as a as a sort of epicenter of the global are crying gossip. That's great. So take us on the Journey of the Madonna post theft, right? Post tactics wrapped up and it's stashed away in Perth then. Within a year a year later. A private investigator called Michael Brown. Mike Brown will call him. approached George Allen short and said if you could help recover The DaVinci Madonna then maybe a substantial reward. Now in the meantime Mark Dalrymple had offered a substantial reward publicly on behalf of the insurers axle and hiscox of 200,000. Well, it was he said substantial than 200,000 300,000 and our crime conferencing Machin that the reward could even be a million pounds and shortly after the theft there was an article in the Scotsman newspaper which valued The DaVinci Madonna I've been worth 50 million dollars and that the value in the Underworld would be 6 million dollars. So obviously George Allen short saw that and would think that himself so he responded to the private investigator Michael Brown that yes, I mean if he could help recover The DaVinci Madonna, you know, the sort of figures would be talking will be 6 million pound six million dollars. Sorry six million dollars. hours So Mike Brown then goes to the Duke of buccleuch the elderly Duke of buccleuch and says I may be able to get your painting back, but the person who can help do that once six million dollars. So the Duke of buccleuch said well, okay, you know, let's talk about this and he gave The private investigator Michael Brown $50,000 as a Goodwill gesture which might Brown then took back to George short and gave to him which obviously reimbursed the Daniel family in George short of the original $50,000. They did when the thieves So then discussion started to take place about how the DaVinci would be handed back and how they would do it. But then all of a sudden the case took a Sinister turn when Mark Dalrymple the art loss adjuster appeared in a TV show which was a three-part show about it was called The Big Heist which had a team of old veterans thieves going to steal the painting and it showed how they Would steal it and how they would try to Ransom it back and during the show Mark Dalrymple says, oh we like it when they ask for lawyers. We can go to the lawyer's office and soon as the painting appears we arrest everyone and we don't pay the reward and no one gets paid will George short and Mike Brown saw this on the TV in December 2004 and it spooked both of them obviously, so they called off negotiation. ins with the Duke of buccleuch and Mark Dalrymple Then we move to January 19. Sorry January 2005. when Mark Dalrymple trying to redeem himself the Duke of buccleuch the insurers and the police reach out to Mike Brown again, the private detective and say would you have another go because now we will give you six million dollars if you can recover The DaVinci Madonna, and they said there's a sign of Goodwill will take you to a bank vault in Edinburgh where you can see the six million dollars sitting A table in cash to prove that we will pay you. So Mike Wilson Julie went to the bank in Edinburgh to the bank vault where there was six million dollars sitting on a table in the vault and they said if you get the DaVinci Madonna back, you can have this monthly he goes back to George Allen short and says, I've seen the money six million dollars. And as soon as the DaVinci Madonna is handed back. I can collect the Six Million Dollars. hours, so The plan was hatched. And the location was decided and what would happen on the day would be Mike Brown the private investigator would go to the bank and sit in the vault in front of the table with six million dollars and some whole dolls and George Allen short would deliver the stolen DaVinci Madonna to a pre-agreed location and the money will be given to Mike Brown and he would leave the bank. however on the day of the Handover Sorry that yeah on the day of the hand over. The location was was sorted out by Mike Brown and he got a third person Timmy Boyle James Boyle to go to the location to make sure everything was was safe. And that George Allen short was to drive to the location 1 hour before the meet and to drive down the road in his Rolls-Royce with the DaVinci Madonna in the boo. And if Jimmy boil gave him a thumbs up. Document everything was okay for the meeting to take place in an hour. If it was sums down. It was everything is bad. It's a set up an ambush get out of here quick George Allen short drove down the road an hour before the meeting James Boyle put his thumb down saying that it was a setup George Allen short drove off and stashed The DaVinci Madonna again. And then Mike Brown later on in the day left the bank. And then when he spoke to George Shaw and Jimmy Boyle, they said that they had noticed undercover police one was a road sweeper who kept talking into his hand. There was a couple in a car and there was a man reading a newspaper and there was also men hiding behind the curtains of the house that was opposite. So they realized that the place was swarming with police. Wow. Okay a couple of questions there when you say The painting was in the car. Boot of the Rolls-Royce. Do you mean the trunk? Yes. Okay, George Allen show had the dimension Madonna stash and elderly relatives house either in the wardrobe or in the Attic, you know, the Loft space and on the day of the hand over he went and he put it in the trunk of his Rolls-Royce to go to the Handover. He drove down the road an hour before got the thumbs down. From Jimmy boil and sped off and why did Jimmy Boyle give him the thumbs down? Because you know, how did he know they were undercover police officers is that conspicuous reading a newspaper in public these days well, to be honest with you. I mean people are you know might Mike Brown is a private investigator Jimmy boil and I think had some leeks with with the criminal wealth, you know, they get to know. Plus you got a road sweeper. Keep talking into his hands. You've got a couple in a car. You've got men hiding behind the curtains. You know, I mean to be honest with you these one sort of CIA or MI5. These were just undercut these which is police officers from Scotland who would just dressed in plain clothes trying to be undercover. So the guys hiding behind the curtain that was in the bank they were hiding behind it goes out. In the boat, you can imagine yeah in front of the table with six million dollars with his whole dough waiting to scoop all the caching and run out the bank. But how did how did this person see the people hiding behind the curtains because he was the lookout he was staking it out and waiting for the world's roast. Sadly the undercover police officers were professional and they got they got seen as soon as they've got seen it spook George short. He drove off and stashed The DaVinci Madonna, who is the guy who gave the thumbs down Doyle Jimmy boil Jimmy boil. So I mean the worst thing that would happen to Jimmy Boyle is you know, he's always erring on the side of caution. Even if these were just regular people he's gonna give the thumbs down and A I don't know this weird guy was talking into his hand for God's sake. Well, I would say that's the the One giveaway or and the curtains. Those are the give aways from from the description two people sitting in their car. I who are we to say that's anything err on the side of caution. Someone can reading a newspaper. I don't know anything about that someone talking into his hand. That's super conspicuous same thing with The 1015 failed operations, they tried and didn't succeed. Yeah, you're not so we hear on the news Police Undercover agents arrested people, but we don't hear on the news yesterday. There was for undercover surveillance operations that the police didn't arrest anyone. That's why we get you here. This is perfect Tim. I feel like you'd make a terrible Lookout guy. I feel like everyone would go to jail and you be like what it's just normal someone's behind their curtains. Someone's reading the paper. What are you talking about? What is that been illegal? Okay. So what happens now? So we have the we have Shaw, who's this Kingpin? He's in his Rolls-Royce. He gets the thumbs down. They speed off. We have Michael Brown who is who's just left the bank after, you know left six million dollars sitting on a table in the bank where we at now they reconvene itself. Is anybody in trouble now, I'm not hang on. Hang on. I read something and Jimmy boy also. Sighs I saw suspicious characters George Shultz said well stash the intervention Madonna way. Mike Brown says leave it to me. He gained calls Mark Dalrymple and the police and the Duke of buccleuch and says, I know it was a setup. You tried to shaft us but you didn't succeed. Now the police didn't know the DaVinci Madonna was in the trunk of the Rolls-Royce. They didn't know Jimmy boy was standing there, right? They did all they knew was that Mike Brown was in the bank vault with the Six Million Dollars. Someone was going to turn out but these pre pre-arranged location and hand over the DaVinci Madonna So the merge in The DaVinci Madonna is driven back on the ground. The next thing that happens is that the DaVinci Madonna is then used as collateral for a loan of half a million dollars. Right, which is put up by the Irish underworld and Irish Godfathers. So they then give half a million dollars and take possession of The DaVinci Madonna that was in 2005 and 2006 and everything went quiet the police Michael Brown and said to the police you tried to set me up and sold off forget about this and everything. And so that was the end of the sort of police operation. The next thing is the Madonna elsewhere gets into the possession of the Irish criminal Godfather's for a debt of Thousand dollars which was going to be used in a property deal anger is flat-out the easiest way to make a podcast anchor gives you everything you need in one place for free which you can use right from your computer or even your phone creation tools allow you to record and edit your podcast. So it sounds great. They'll distribute your podcast for you. So it can be heard everywhere Spotify Apple podcasts Google podcasts and many more you can easily make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership so download Oh the anchor app or go to Anchor dot. F m-- to get started now. Now how does Michael Brown come across as so confident or Brazen that he can contact the police and say you were trying to set me up deal's off. How would how did he cannot get some sort of like repercussions just based on his involvement in this Right. First of all, Michael Brown was a private investigator. So you obviously had contacts in the police. Okay had contacts with the police. He know he used to work at the clerk's office or something in the court system, you know, so he was someone who was no he had nothing to do with the $500,000 the after million dollars loan. He's now out of the picture for the minute. Okay? Okay. So now half a million doc writes another dimension Madonna's being held by the Irish Godfather's half a million dollars has been Because you for a property deal. We then fast forward to 2007 in 2007 to amateur private detectives from Liverpool called Robbie Graham and Jack Doyle want to start a stolen art and stolen items website called stolen stuff reunited and what they were hoping to do was to try to recover stolen things that were sentimental or whatever. They were not necessarily valuable and hand them back to the victims. They then went to a solicitor a lawyer that they knew in Manchester called Marshal Ronald and asked him to help them set up the website. So they set up the website and they made a few small recoveries of items of jewellery and motorcycle or sword a couple of little things and they put a bit up on this website. Decided I've recovered some stuff next they get approached by an Irish contact to obviously knows the Irish Godfather's who says I can recover The DaVinci Madonna how much money would be paid if we can recover it. So Robbie Graham and Jack Doyle then speak to Marshall run of the lawyer and say, how can we do this where the Dmitri Madonna is handed back? And a reward is paid so Marshal Ronald then contacts to lawyers in Scotland because obviously this is Scotland has a different legal system than England. So he consulted with two lawyers in Scotland and they hatched a plan that they would get a legal agreement. Whereby they would hand back The DaVinci Madonna and millions of dollars be paid. Then in August of 2007 Marshal Ronald contacted Mark Dalrymple, the art loss adjuster who was employed by the insurance company to investigate The DaVinci Madonna case and he sent him a DVD of his of them of The DaVinci Madonna showing that proof of life and said that he had clients that were private detectives who could recover The DaVinci Madonna. Without any arrests and I want you to know and he wanted to know how much reward would be available. But the one fatal mistake you made that I that I told him this was that he said he didn't want any police involvement now any successful recovery, especially if you are a lawyer or lawyers are involved must include little law enforcement and if law enforcement don't go along with it, or they won't agree then everyone walks away, but if you don't include Law enforcement you leave yourself open to be set up and stung which is what happened eventually. So you're saying that it was a marshal Ronald who showed the DVD to the insurance loss adjuster and he was the one that also said that he didn't want the police involvement. That's correct. Gotcha. And you said that that's a mistake and you should have law enforcement involved to some extent. Yes, of course. Okay, so you are in All did that point to yes, yes. Yes, of course because to be honest then what happened was I was approached by Mark Dalrymple and the undercover police, right? And they asked me to put a post on my blog explaining the legal ramifications, right? And and that the only way The DaVinci Madonna could be successfully recovered would be if legal agreements were in place negotiated by lawyers. And everything was okay. Like what was done in the Turner case that you get an agreement from the police you then get an agreement from insurers. Did you could put glue and then you take that to come to a high court judge and say your honor we want to recover The DaVinci Madonna is this legal and we will all stick to our part of the bargain and if the judge says yes, like he did in the Turner case you can proceed Marshal Ronald went off the The valuation and didn't want any police involvement. So after he Marshal Ronald Robbie Graham and jackdaws saw my post on my blog, they then move forward and Mark Dalrymple stepped aside and introduce them to John Craig and David resta who said that they represented the Duke of buccleuch, but in reality were both undercover police officers and no one from the recovery. The parties knew that this was that they were dealing with undercover police. Well Master, they didn't tell Marshall. Why don't they run the cover police? You didn't tell Jack Dawn or Robbie Grand that they run the cover police. Okay. Now I sat down and they had they had a meeting and it was agreed that if the DaVinci Madonna was handed back that the Duke of buccleuch would pay six million dollars to Marshal Ronald the lawyer. Who would then distribute it to the Scottish lawyers and to Jack Doyle Robbie Graham, and whoever I have a feeling that this isn't going to go. Well well to be honest with you at that point Marshall wanted at one point asked John Craig and not knowing use undercover police to sign a legal agreement and he refused that should have been a red flag. The next thing you should have done was involved the police and say look privately we're going to have a buy back here, but all the Parties are agreed. And if the police are on board with this this can happen, but he didn't do that. Now. This is the next thing the other big hurdle to overcome was that the Irish Godfather's wanted their half a million dollars back before they would even park with the painting forget about what promises are down the road, you know and somewhere over the rainbow of six million dollars. Some Marshal Ronald n goes to two clients of his brothers who had one and a half million dollars compensation for some something else that was in Marshal Ronald client account. And he said can I use 750,000 dollars of that to release the DaVinci Madonna when I get the 6 million dollars, I'll put the money back plus I'll give you something for allowing me to do it. One of the brothers said. Yes. The other one said no. But Marshal Ronald took it as a green light Marshal Ronald Drew out in cash $500,000 half a million dollars and a cashier's check for another 250 thousand dollars. He then gives that in a briefcase to Robbie Grime and Jack Doyle who then go to a car park and give it to their Irish contact. Who's connected to the Irish Godfather's and then some hours later Robbie Graham and Jack Doyle a given the davichi Madonna. It was in a lot of steel case you use for camera equipment to protect it. So now they've got it. They then start to make their way to Glasgow where it's been arranged that they will hand over at the offices of Gately wearing a very prestigious Scottish lawyers where the two Scottish lawyers involved and Marshal Ronald John Craig and David wrestler will be waiting. On the way to Scotland, the weather was really bad. So Robbie Graham and Jack Doyle stopped over in a hotel and they took the time to take the have their photograph taken with the DaVinci Madonna on their lat and all the kinds of things that you would do which were later published in the Press. Yeah. Some tells me they would bite them in the ass. Maybe you shouldn't do that. So soon after recovering it so well even handed it back yet. Yeah, so the next so the next morning Like you're not like a drive to the to the solicitors up to the lawyer's office. They walk into the room and there are the true Scottish lawyers. There's Marshal Ronald. There's John Kraig the Jew couple clues representative, but in reality undercover police and David rester undercover police. They open the the suitcase they get the Madonna DaVinci out John Craig looks and there's some things on the back of it, which he knows. It's the original he He then says he's phoning the Duke of buccleuch to give him the good news. But in reality, this is a signal to the police to bursting. He makes the call the police burst in from everywhere and arrest everyone in the room, including the undercover police officers. They take them to the police station and they charged the two Scottish lawyers Marshal Ronald Jack Doyle and Robbie Graham with armed robbery. Kindly, The DaVinci Madonna attempted extortion of six million dollars and lots of other charges they appear in court and they get bailed and the trial takes 3 years before it comes to trial in Scotland. Hang on now whilst the police have now got these five people three lawyers and two private detectives indicted for The DaVinci case. They then go back to our old friend George. Allen Show Jimmy boil and Michael Brown the private detective and they then charge them separate with attempted extortion of six million dollars from the Duke of buccleuch. So you now have two groups of people that are charged in The DaVinci case, which will mean two different trials. And then that's 2007. We have to fast forward to 2010 when the trial starts got a couple questions before we do that what happened to the $750,000 that Marshal Ronald took from the two brothers account. That way to the Irish connection someone that they called the ghost right? He was obviously they said he was next paramilitary Ira I know lay or something like that that was involved in crime that $500,000 went and was never seen again. The cashier's check was stopped. Okay, I didn't get that but $500,000 went and went into the underworld and never been seen since so that those those brothers were just out $500,000 do not know because there's something no no because there's something called The Lawyers Indemnity fund which reimburse the brothers and subsequent as well as will. Learn Marshal Ronald had to face the consequences of that later on. Okay. So what happened to the painting at this point? Well, the pine team was recovered in the lawyer's office in Glasgow of Gately wearing and it was taken from there to the National Museum. Check that it was okay and then back to the Duke of buccleuch. And then now it sits in the national museum of Scotland on a long-term loan. I would add this one thing though that one month before the recovery happened in October 2007 the very elderly Duke of buccleuch died. So he never got to see his beloved Madonna of the yarn Winder by Leonardo DaVinci recovered and that's that a bit tragic. Yeah. Yeah. It's terribly sad. Yeah. Okay, so but there's a there's a whole story after this. So everything gets wrapped up. The painting is on long-term loan and seemingly, you know safe secure look here, but what's going on legally to the people who arranged all of this right in April 2010, the trial starts at the high court in Scotland and last for two months of the three two Scottish lawyer. Has Marshal Ronald Jack Doyle and Robbie Graham now in Scott in the Scottish legal system, you can have three verdicts you can have guilty. You can have not guilty. But there's also a third version it called not proven which means that you're not guilty. You're not quite not guilty. But you still walk away. It's a verdict of not proven its in Scottish law. So it's saying we might think you'd be your only a little bit. Able to not enough to be really guilty. Like that's great trial. Yeah, is it what's a comparison here? Let's a mistrial hung jury. Yeah. Yeah. I'm well, yeah, I mean no no, yeah not proven could be something I think there is something in the American justice system, which means that you can omit some admit to something but it's not on your record or you or it's a misdemeanor or it's it's something that's you know, it's an alternative for a jury, but it's Knowing that there's an anomaly of Scottish law guilty not guilty or not proven. So anyway, after a two-month trial costing millions of dollars all 5 of The DaVinci accused of not proven. So Jack Doyle and Robbie Graham leave the court in Scotland and drive straight to drum Larry castle and bang on the door and saying your dukeship. We want to reward money. Now we've Found not we're not guilty. Where's their money that you could but you obviously wouldn't speak to them. They then try to apply to the insurance company and say you put up a reward. We want to collect it the insurance company refused to pay them out saying that they needed the police approval before they would pay anything out the police refused to give that approval. And so Marshal Ronald independently set about launching a lawsuit against the police insurance company and the Duke of buccleuch to recover the promised six million dollar reward money in the meantime shortly after that trial had collapsed the criminal prosecution service dropped the case against Michael Brown George Allen Shaw. And Jimmy boil so you had accused all finished and that was the end of it. So to speak until we move on to the lawsuit from Marshal Ronald. Okay, let's hear about that Marshal Ronald launched a lawsuit and he couldn't get any legal aid or help with it because the establishment closed ranks. So he did it all on his own and it was hundreds of paperwork of hundreds of pages and the issue proceedings in 2014, and it came into court in 2015 at the higher Court where it was thrown out where he didn't receive any reward whatsoever. And so that's the end of it to be honest has been very traumatic. I would like to say this however Marshal Ronald who I know very well in his defense. He had a terrible injury accident many years ago, which left him with a brain injury and He's what he regarded as bipolar. So The DaVinci case is something whereby. I think that that he got intoxicated with the enormity of being the person to recover The DaVinci Madonna that he let his guard sleep and he didn't act as a lawyer and do things the right way. He could have done things differently, but it's like all of these high-profile art thefts everyone becomes intoxicated with the infirmity and with the whole case like the Gardner case, whereas everyone becomes Territorial and no one wants to give credit to anyone else for anything that they may say on a particular case and that can be very very diverse Aviv divisive. So through your contact with Marshall. We reached out to him for an interview and he declined but he said something really interesting. He said he's deleted all his records. In a cathartic exercise of Soul cleansing and we found that kind of an interesting way to put something behind you. I guess obviously this is a traumatic thing for him and his family. Yeah, but I'm just kind of trying to figure out what the moral of the story is. The moral of the story is that if you have good intentions, then you won't mind those intentions being relayed to everyone concerned and there's no good cutting corners. And to be honest with you as lawyers. They should know better at the end of the day on the Turner case. What happened was to take Gallery said they wanted to pay a German lawyer six million dollars to recover, too. The paintings they went to the high court in London to a judge and said This is Our intention. Is it legal and the judge said well as it's not on UK soil or British to English soil. I have no objections if Marshal Ronald had got all the information and gone to the high court in Scotland and said to a judge your honor we want to recover The DaVinci Madonna. It's a 50 million dollar iconic artwork. But this is what we how we want to do it. Can you say that? That will be lawful or unlawful if he says it would be unlawful. They don't do it if he says it's lawful they go ahead but he's fatal mistake was not wanting to speak to the police in the first place wanting to cut Corners because legally, there's no law that says you can't buy back your own stolen stolen property. There's no law against that and there's no law for giving a reward if Lance loses something someone steals it and I'm all of a sudden Tim says I found this is no law that says Lance can't reward Tim for finding something that was stolen off of him. There's no law against it. But there's a way to do it legally. First of all, if I lost something or if it was stolen I would make my first phone call to be to you and then we'd go from there and then I would call Tim give it back. Armor that comes home and says, unfortunately, he did not cover his tracks incomplete. They is it fair to say that there is something about stolen art famous art beautiful paintings by done by Masters. Is there something about that that makes people are rational and and do things in situations like this that they wouldn't normally do. Well. Yeah, I mean, but also I think we can apply that to anything that has an intrinsic high value. That's fair, you know, okay we can we can be Very fluffy and arty-farty and talk about you know, now we can be all culturally ran academics and talk about my old Masters but a yacht in the marina in Miami would still attract the intoxication a Ferrari. Okay, you know yellow diamond Blue Diamond a diamond necklace. There are millions of thing, you know, if something has a extremely high value then I think everyone can get intoxicated. Okay, so it's not necessarily Like something mystical about this beautiful artwork or this beautiful Diamond. It's more people see dollar signs. And that's what motivates them. Well, you know, I would say that. Yeah because to be honest with you, you know, you know, some people can look at some are abstract art and say that I don't think it's worth ten dollars yet. It's worth hundred million dollars some other people can say I like this particular art. Someone could say I love boats and that yacht there is the most beautiful your I've ever seen so being a worker. Of art is a subjective notion. So I guess my question is how could this have have gone more smoothly like it sounds like at every turn there were mistakes made that led us to a point where there's a couple of Trials and and a huge waste of money and the painting ends up back in the hands of the owner. Anyway. Yeah, I mean you ironic thing is you guys are millions of dollars that we used in the trials. Could it be you Is 2pi higher reward? However, now the white should have gone was Marshal Ronald should have contacted Mark Dalrymple and said I've got a DVD. Can you arrange a meeting with the investigating police and the Duke of buccleuch or his representative and at that meeting he should have said to the police. Look I've got two clients who are going to remain nameless who are private investigators. You can recover The DaVinci Madonna. Is there a way that you will allow to happen The DaVinci Madonna to surface and monies can be paid. To me if they say no fine walk away if they say yes, then you explore further and once you get them on board and the insurance company in the Duke of buccleuch you then get the package and you take it to a high court judge. And so look your honor. This is what we intend to do. If you think there's something legally we're going to do wrong. Can you point out then after that trouble is the Duke of buccleuch. The insurers had no intentions of practical, you know paying any reward. They don't want to pay any more. When the Duke of buccleuch under oath in the Marshal Ronald lawsuit trial was asked by Marshall. Why not? He said did we did you intend to ever offer a reward? He said no. He said I expected the police to recover my DaVinci Madonna for nothing. Okay, and so that's kind of typical to because I mean we've talked with you about it in the past. A lot of people who are in possession of stolen artwork are afraid to come forward even if they cannot sell this art work. They're afraid to come forward because there they think they may get the book thrown at them when they're just trying to give this artwork back. Yes, because oh so what happens if it goes, yes, he moves into ego that all of a sudden you approach people to hand back stolen art. And then those people want to see you know, they seek Glory. I not only recovered this artwork, but I've arrested someone or you know, everyone wants the Limelight and that's the problem. That's the problem that you get. So how often do things like this happen and they turn out to be fake or do they turn out to just never come to fruition? Like what is it less than 10% of stolen art is recovered. Right? So this this DaVinci Madonna is already in a category. That isn't typical. Well, yeah, I mean to be honest with you that their operations on the cover operations, their attempts to handbag style will not every day of the week and nine out of the Ten of them. Don't come. Um to anything because either the people who had the stolen art know it's a it's a sting and no they won't get paid or authorities won't go forward with it because they know they would have to pay the money and they wouldn't get any arrests. So it's a Mexican standoff. And so what has to happen is something has to happen. We're all of a sudden people can come together or it's a break on either side, you know at the end of the day, you know authorities say, yes, we want that back. Desperately will allow money to be paid because there are instances where money's have been paid and throughout this entire process the Duke never knew what was going on. Right? Well now that you know another joke no more. Yeah, of course he met with Michael Brown. Yeah, right and he was informed of what was going on right up until his death and when he died one month before they recovered The DaVinci Madonna in October 2007, you know, he was aware that there was an operation underway. Way to recover his painting. Okay. And do you think that there was something intoxicating that the Marshal Ronald became a part of when you get involved in this something about the the underworld that was more intoxicating than the financial benefit. I'm upset that yes. I mean the actual notion that Marshal Ronald would be the guy to recover the Madonna of the yarn Winder by Leonardo DaVinci. I'm with something that intoxicated him intoxicated Robbie Graham Jack Doyle. And so all of a sudden it surpassed perhaps the the monetary aspect that he made two mistakes. The second mistake was using the money from his client account to pay to pay the Irish guy to release the DaVinci Madonna without telling the police against let me rephrase the question. I didn't freeze ER properly. Do you think that Marshal Ronald? Ronald was intrigued by the notion that he could outsmart the Scottish Mafia and these kingpins and be sort of the average guy and and outsmart career criminals. I don't think so. Because if that was the case then to be honest Marshall one of would have cooperated with the police and would have negotiated a separate reward when everyone else got arrested bar him, right? Is there anything from this case that we can learn and apply? I to the Gardner case. Yeah, what needs to be done is transparency, you know, I don't want you. I don't want people to lie up crime with the Gardner case. I want the Gardner case is C on its own pedestal away from everything else because of the notion that it's impossible to hand back stolen up without everyone's permission. I want the Gardner case to be this one unique Holy Grail where we can do things that perhaps we wouldn't do. Ooh on other cases, you know at the end of the day, there are people out there with some Gardner art want to hand it back in get paid or authorities law enforcement the Gardner Museum Antonia more a Uncle Tom cobley and all don't want to pay bad people money for handing back the gardener up and they want people arrested indicted and convicted and you know, that's well within their remit to do that. So that's the standoff you having the Gardner case and until such And that Gap is closed then we just have to sit back and hope that law enforcement stumble across a gardener artwork during another investigation. We gotta bust on Ian standoff here. Yeah. I mean that's what you've had from day one a Bostonian standoff and you know, you can you know, you can understand why they've done that but my only problem is is that the lack of transparent transparency from the FBI and go Gardner Museum, you know if that's their position tell the public but don't tell the public that we just want the art back. We don't want to arrest anyone there's immunity and there's 10 million dollars when actual fact all we all know that it's a fake reward its fake immunity. And in many respects that you Gardner investigations been a fake investigation. I mean, you know normal our crime goes, right but, you know an informant steps forward and is willing to sacrifice or throw someone to the I always say this person at this address has stolen our the police raided. They recover the art there rest of the people in charge and we've handling and then you form it gets paid and agreed a reward or a reward right short of that. Right? It's very difficult, but every now and again and historically a few times police can be given and a location where stolen art can be recovered and money can be paid. Paid to an informant and no arrests be made that has happened the Turner case. There's the teaching case. There are other cases where this has happened and that's why I always want to separate the Gardner case as a unique case separate from your everyday are crying. I think that is a very fair and accurate assessment of the Gardner case. Yeah, but having said that it would be nice to get a break. It'll be nice for people to actually feel. I can be open and a bit more honest about the Gardner case and not trying to Hoodwink the people try to distract the People by talking about all this is the history and these are the people doing this that and the other and not focus on how do you recover The Gardener up, you know, I also found it very interesting that the guys from TRC. I mean and David Turner is in a medical facility William Molino was released apparently in 2015, and no one's mentioned that Stephen Rossetti is listed not to be released until to that 2044 yet. He's not in the custody of the Bureau of Corrections. I don't know what that means. What do you think that could mean could possibly mean witness protection? Oh, all you are a naughty man. I shouldn't you shouldn't have said something like that. Now, of course, it means that I only said that because you said it in your email to us. Yeah, of course. Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, I mean that's what everyone would assume but that information is on a public website and you don't need right more than two brain cells to work out the Stephen Rossetti. He's not due for release 2 2044. He's not in the custody of the Bureau of Corrections. Where is he's not working at McDonald's is he well for the record I wasn't aware. Yeah. About how information is suppressed yet. There's the website you can go and search for any prisoner in the you in the u.s. Correctional system and all the details just come up in front of you. Well, we got some good Gardener info there at the tail end which is pretty awesome all the who's who and where are they at now players in the in the Gardner Heist. I will like to say if anyone has something that'll fit into a to By three PO Box say maybe an eagle finial or Rembrandt's postage stamp-sized self-portrait. We have a post office box 22 Front Street FR o NT Box 2 3 0 Worcester, Massachusetts make that up to crawl space media. Now, I agree. I've always said, you know for me. In the case. Is the crooks get you those with the gardener up nothing and authorities get nothing. In other words, they hand back the gardener up no reward. No indictments. No arrests anonymously hand back. Even if it's a less a work of art just hand it back so that it gives hope we all want hope we had no indication of the existence of the gardener are in nearly 29 years to give everyone hope and you know to continue the Any careers of people who are used a garden that case, you know, as you know, as part of their repertoire hand something back anonymously that that's not you know, the most valuable thing. Yeah, the eagle finial that you know, the the vars or a day God drawing, you know, something like that. Don't try and collect a reward and don't and don't open yourself up to be arrested by authorities. Let's get back to the Catholic Church confession box. Just go and stick one in the confession box knock on the door and say father. Nick stores is a bit of gardener are there you can't trust those priests. Well, I don't know not actually generalization for every bad one. There are certainly a lot of good ones there. Yeah. I'm just kidding and that will be a happy Saint Patrick's Day 2019 good stuff. Thank you so much for opening our world to get another very fascinating story involving art Heist recovery and just what happens when sort of average people. Get involved in the whole thing. Yeah, of course, I mean base of the food chain, you know and what happens is when people take their position on the food chain, which is not theirs. That's when mistakes happen. I mean and that's from law enforcement as well. I mean The DaVinci case is perfect. The Scottish police used could probably beat cops right? I said right tomorrow. You're going to be a road sweeper. From a gangster, you know and so all of a sudden that was the Keystone Cops the first attempt at The DaVinci when everyone realized I was undercover cops the second time it was those who handing back the art. The lawyers were those are the guys that messed up the second time by not insisting on legal agreements to cover themselves. And then the third one was the judicial system which wasted millions of dollars on a two-month. The end it with no convictions and somewhere Leonardo. DaVinci is laughing and saying I didn't even paint that.
In season 2 of Empty Frames Tim Pilleri and Lance Reenstierna continue their dive into the subject of art heists by getting a broader scope of the world in which these crimes take place. In episode 5 of season 2 Tim & Lance again talk to Turbo Paul Hendry. He's a former "knocker" who went on to be a firewall between people who possess stolen artwork and their owners. We talk about the stolen Madonna of the Yarnwinder by Leonardo da Vinci. The painting was stolen in 2003 from Drumlanrig Castle by two thieves posing as tourists, who said "Don't worry love, we're the police. This is just practice" to two tourists from New Zealand as they exited through a window. The Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum in Boston, Massachusetts was robbed of thirteen pieces of artwork on March 18th, 1990. The frames remain empty today, awaiting their return. Please sign and share the Turbo Plan petition for an itemized price list for the stolen Gardner art. 28 years into our response to this terrible crime, we must consider modifying the approach we take as we attempt to restore what’s been astutely identified as “our heritage.” Through Change.org, you can make your voice heard and help to bring the art home. Go to the link to sign your name: https://www.change.org/p/let-s-bring-home-the-stolen-isabella-stewart-gardner-museum-art-a-new-approach 