It's not just talking to teachers talking to teachers about academic research and evidence-based practice with continuing professional development at PNA 1977 on Twitter were just talking to teachers this week on nail is not an association with a teacher development trusts having conversation with dr. Jill Barry Jill has taught for 30 years carrying out seven different jobs in six different schools after beginning her teaching career. Here as a secondary English specialist since leaving headship in 2010. She has worked and Associate for the national college for teaching and Leadership carried out a range of educational consultancy work and completed a part-time Doctorate in Education. And she's research the transition from Deputy headship into headship just been involved in woman Ed and network designed to support aspiring and serving women leaders in education since its Inception in 2012. She's conducted academic research on the development of the initiative with dr. Kay full of from not. The university she's spoken at several women Ed events and contributed a chapter to the women Ed book 10% braver inspiring women to lead jewels and advocate for the opportunities presented by social media professional development and she's tweeting at yalbury 1:02 and blogging at Jill Barry one or two dot block. I discussed with Jill about her 30 years teaching as an English specialist, six schools and Masters deputy headship headship and difficult in turbulent times. I Scat, why would anybody want to make the leap into leadership? We also spend some time talking about whether good teachers automatically make good leaders and should good teachers always be promoted out of the classroom. We decide whether experience should be effective promotion or does enthusiasm count for more than knowledge and we talked about the key principles for anyone who is thinking about applying for leadership or headship. I've been appointed to a new position in a new school. We talked about the challenges of the period between appointment and formal it taking up the role and we discuss the crucial first 100 days in the new job. What are the challenges of these early months in the post? We tackle the transition and once you become established in the new position, how do you move beyond beyond the new leader? We also touch on the early careers framework and it's important in coaching or mentoring and the conversation is based on Jules book making the leap from deputies ahead and that's published by Crown house in the tdt section Maria and Ian talk about the transformational power of the CPD audit and bespoke guidance given to schools. And this is something that I'm really passionate about and fully involved in in Blackpool. Maria also talks about the tdt framework and the potential for enhancing subject-specific CPD. She uses Samples from very effective schools in the area and how we can share what they are doing. So without further Ado we have Maria and Ian waiting for us over in the studio. So over to you, even if you could just introduce yourself for the listeners. Hello. So my name is Ian Campbell and I'm a school program leader for Teacher development trusts and one of the most powerful ways in which we are tvt work with schools is by visiting them in person to carry out our unique CPD audio review which involves internal range of staff. And working developmentally with leaders to look at the Quality and culture professional learning across the organization today. I'm here with my colleague Maria Cunningham on network development leader and delighted to be able to chat her about her experiences working with schools following this review. So Maria, can you sort of give me an example of an era of development outlined of a tvt audit for school might take and build upon to improve their CPD. Yeah. Absolutely. And this is a really interesting one because Phil Mader of nailers Nutter is carrying out this review for a program that we're running in Blackpool really successfully with schools. We use a framework designed by T DT based on what the international body of evidence says makes effective professional development. And that means that the report that we generate at the end of the audit review offers a really bespoke guidance as to where a school might Focus. So this really varies between School. Jules it could be that following the review and following these interviews and the data collected we would have recommended a school works on the cultural aspect. So the way in which staff work together whether they feel trusted to really take ownership of professional learning and how well that's distributed in terms of middle leaders taking an ownership for their teams or it might be more pertinent to this processes and structures. So is there enough resource put The CPD or is the time used effectively is there enough time so it can be really varied. I think based on the needs of the school and that's why it's so important that we could do that diagnosis and make sure that any school CPD plan is really matching their needs and their context. Excellent spot so I'll sounds really interesting and how would that apply to as Primary School context as well? Yeah, so we say that the principles of effective professional development and how that sled in a school really shouldn't vary too much between primary and secondary context. So one primary school that we work with recently did some really interesting development on what they had been advised in their audit, which was to take a bit more. Is on subject-specific CPD and consider how light of the new osted framework middle leaders could really be empowered to make sure that that subject specific pedagogy and subject knowledge within their teams was really kind of high quality. So one particular leader that we worked with she made sure that every single subject leader and team was put in touch with or engage with subject associations. So so not only were they provided with things like Publications other access to training but also had those really rich networks that they could tap into and learn from what was going on elsewhere and it's an interesting one because subject-specific CPD and how that is then working and planned and happens within teams as actually been a really a really key focus and increasingly of interest to CPD leaders, I guess as I said because of the ofsted framework New demands on middle leaders. Yeah, absolutely. I could definitely see the value if your subject specialist and you're possibly the only one in your school have been connected to things like subjects associations. Definitely and the key is that none of these aspects of our framework and isolation. So if I think for example of one really great sort of gold quality school that we worked with recently and that was a secondary school the way in which they really transformed their CPD to be quite subject LED was that they restructured the entire time table to kind of eliminate those less effective meetings and limited those administrative or procedural tasks to email and then they reallocated all of that time, which I think was something like nine hours a year to collaborative subject-specific CPD. So now groups of Staff within their teams now focus on a particular learning issue they call this a threshold topic related to The subject that they would like to improve so in maths that might be concept variation, but then in history that might be something like developing inquiry skills and then at teaching and learning meeting subsequently colleagues from a range of subjects and to share how they've implemented strategies and explore then how that might be adapted or trial between different departments. And in those interviews colleague said that was a really useful use of time but also enables better sharing both within and between teams and then across the organization you have way more teachers who are actually being given the opportunity to contribute to the planning and design of CPD which in turn really contributes to that high quality culture. So subject-specific CPD isn't something that has to happen in isolation is something where you can collaborate with different departments. Yeah. Absolutely. It's it's all to do with that message. We give out a t DT which is the CPD the leadership of it should really be Dude across a school or college so that everyone feels empowered to take ownership over their own learning and knows who they can approach for that who leads on it. But also how they can also be proactive in always developing amazing. Thanks so much. And that was a really great chat. That's right. Thank you, Marie and back to you in the studio film. Thank you Ian and Maria. So if this is they're interested in getting involved in any of the work of the teacher development trusts then head over to the website, which is TD Trust dot-org so Without further Ado. I will move into the interview with dr. Jill Berry welcome to nailers nattering musings and evidence-based teaching and professional learning followers on Twitter are PNA 1977. Okay, Jill, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. And we're going to start with our usual gentle introductory question and someone asked if you can tell a little bit about your story, but just want to preface that by saying there's a lot in there isn't there. Faint hymns of 30 years teaching English specialist, you've worked in six different schools. You've done your Masters deputy headship and of course headship sort of lots to talk about in this story. There is I've been very fortunate. I think I think I've had a great career started teaching in 1980. Yes taught in six different schools have seven different jobs because I was internally promoted in my first school. So I've done pastoral leadership academic leadership became head of 6-4. Or form in due course, then definitely heard and I was ahead for 10 years, which was definitely the job. I enjoyed the most and found the most fulfilling. I've also taught adults at night school GCSE and a-level. I've done the exam marking for many years. I've done tuition all sorts of different things. I taught English and I carried on teaching English. So even as a head in the last 10 years, I taught English and I did a master's actually 15 years into my career and then I did a doctorate in there D after. Finished headship in 2010, which was about the transition between deputy headship and hardship and I wrote a book about it making the leap moving from Deputy head which is very much geared a professional audience. Whereas of course the doctoral thesis is really designed for an academic audience. And since I finished headship in 2010, I've done quite a lot of leadership consultancy. So various types of work where I'm supporting aspiring and serving leaders at all levels. Eels and I love it and I feel very lucky to have the opportunity to do that. Now really blind and Leadership is very much going to be a focus of the discussion on the podcast today and write and your book as well. So I have the gentle introductory question over. Let's get into the meat of the real questions. So in difficult turbulent times in education and the world and they seem to be getting ever more turbulence. This recording is taking Blazers Parliament has been recalled. Why would anybody want to make the leap into leadership? I think because it's it's an opportunity. It's a privilege and it can be hugely energizing and rewarding. For me, it's all about your sphere of professional influence. So when you start teaching those who fall within your sphere of professional influence those whose lives you make a difference to in your professional capacity tend to have children you teach perhaps the children you have Castro responsibility for but if you move into leadership role you also are able to influence the lives of adults colleagues and working with and through them you actually reach more children and I think that's a huge opportunity. certainly is a had you make a difference on a scale unlike any other you will ever have known and it is challenging and I'm not one to do playe the chat oranges are doing it helps anyone to have a rose-tinted spectacles view of school leadership in the current climate, but I would say it's tough and it's so worth it and it seems to me working with lots of aspiring leaders at all levels including aspiring heads that these days people are fairly clear cited about what the challenges are and they still want to take on that mantle because we have to ask ourselves. If not me then who if we're all dedicated to making education as successful as it possibly can be then we recognize that all organizations need leaders and they need strong leaders. So you have to ask yourself. Well, if I'm not going to step up then who is and I think it is. Privileged to have the opportunity to do that. And so despite the fact that it is taxing in a number of ways. It's a tough job. I met an awful lot of people who were there well up for it. They're going with their eyes open, but they go in absolutely absolutely and then just this next question is really sort of a two-part question really, so do good teachers automatically make good leaders, and should it be the case that good? Leaders are always brought into the classroom and just to follow up with that. I was really interested. But he said at the start that even as ahead you were still a classroom teacher. So, you know, how do you kind of square that Circle? I think we need to think about what brought into the profession in the first place. I wanted a job that enabled me to use my subject English, which I love star wants to continue to use it to enthuse about it and to learn and to read more and to discuss more and and English teaching was a tremendous opportunity. It has to do that but I also wanted to have an effect on children's lives and I think what motivates people to go into leadership. It's that I also now want to have the opportunity to make a difference to the lives of the adults that I'm working with. I don't think if you are good in the classroom, that means you will automatically be good in a leadership role with colleagues because getting the best from children and getting the best from adults, although they're It's not it's not exactly the same. So I think there are good teachers who don't necessarily take to leadership and that's fine in not everyone's cut out to be a leader that everyone wants to be a leader not everyone can be a leader on the other hand. I think a poor teacher is very unlikely to be a successful leader because I don't think then you have the credibility and the understanding and the capacity to build relationships that leadership requires. So leadership is about getting the best. Best from people teaching is about getting the best from students. But of course when you move from just working with children to working with children and adults. It's a fresh challenge It's A New Perspective if you like when I was head of English, I don't think I was necessarily the best English teacher in the department. I wasn't the were so as a very good teacher but I wouldn't say I was necessarily consistently outstanding. I think some of the people in my team were probably more Did in the classroom than I was but that didn't matter because that wasn't my job. My job as head of English was to help them be the best they could be to support and challenge them to reach their professional best. So I think you need to be a very capable teacher a good teacher. I don't think if you are an outstanding teacher or you will necessarily automatically be an outstanding leader, but I think if you're a poor teacher your chances of succeeding in leadership actually arms aren't terribly Really great in terms of you teaching GCSE English. For example as the head teacher. Do you feel that that enhanced and all that? You wouldn't have done it for these reasons, but you feel it that enhanced your credibility in terms of your staff. And and what kind of impact did that have on them. I think the fact that I continue to teach throughout my headship was it made a statement about how important teaching is and how really this is what it's all about and let's Let's not forget that ever and it does keep you grounded in the classroom. I didn't teach GCSE. I only thought year 7 and I taught one lesson with every year 7 class every year and it was more about the relationship building. Really I said to the head of English. First of all you happy for me to do this. This is your department and when I'm teaching English, you're my boss. I accept just because I'm the head you're still my boss and within this context and I also said, It is I will do a good job teaching English, but this is very much about building relationships. It's about making that connection with each individual learner. It's about learning their names them knowing me and feeling that I know them and when I look back it was one of the best decisions I made as ahead because by October half-term every year and usernames are all that year group. When I've done it for seven years. I knew the name of every student in the senior school and when I stood up in assembling around so I could tell you the name. If every pupil here, and I'm the only person on the staff who can because I'm the only one who's looking after have taught them all. So it was a very important statement and it meant I was in the classroom several times every week and I would never organize anything to cut across that, you know, if I was in school, I was teaching I wouldn't be in a meeting. I wouldn't be doing something that's you know, I considered to be more important but I was paired with the English teacher who taught each cast for the of the week. So if I did have to be out at a meeting out of school, but I have no control over those children were taught English so they didn't suffer in any way from being taught one less than a week by the head. And if you do teachers ahead, you have to be very clear why you're doing it if it's just because you love teaching and you would miss it. I think that self-indulgent. I don't think you should teach for that reason if there's any possibility that the children you teach will lose out because they're being taught by the hair. And had might be pulled out of school. You shouldn't be teaching you need to structure it in such a way that the children gain certain things and don't lose out and I think that's what I managed to do, but it's just an important statement about what were there for and as a reader, I'm helping to develop staff and appoint staff and hopefully Inspire staff and lift staff so that they can be there for the children. I Like the John Thompson thing about how I used to say, it's all about the children the children come first and I think that's actually quite unhelpful and John Tom's said know the staff and the children has to be equal first because you can't serve the children unless he looking after the staff and developing the staff. So it's still all about the teaching and learning and the independent care, but you are having a more indirect. Impact on that by working with and through colleagues all levels and I really enjoyed that as a leader and I absolutely agree as somebody who's you know in senior leadership and still teaching quite a bit. Hopefully for the right reasons in terms of you know, my specific responsibility is in a holster CPD teaching and learning evidence and research that sort of thing. So to be still in the classroom and you know sort of walking the Walk of these things that were talking about does give me a little bit more, you know, Standing of what it's like to be a member of Staff in the school and a bit of perspective in terms of how the decisions that we make impact on the staff. And the people are absolutely absolutely and things like, you know, you're marking policies. Are you see by policies or whatever you decide to do? You know, you're you're implementing those policies not just in the abstract, but in the concrete in the classroom when I was a deputy, I did a lot of teaching added a lot of a level and GCSE teaching as well as the year groups. It was only as a head that I would do. I do guess lesson sometimes of the sixth especially if someone happens to be out and I have to be free I'd go in and do a an a-level lesson just just a 1 after support then but as a deputy I did a lot of exam classes and I think it was really useful to be able to say I do understand but one of the pieces of advice I would give to senior leaders As you move into senior leadership, never forget what it's like to teach us full-time table, never forget that because we have pressures and we're busy as senior leaders and hands but it's a What kind of pressure and it's a different kind of busy? And if you forget just how frenetic can sometimes be the Teacher full time table, then? It's hard to lead all those staff who are doing exactly that I think that's such a good point and my science department will never let me forget what it's like today good and you listen to them. It's good that you listen absolutely moving on to the next question. So I had to do some research for a recent piece that I wrote for the Royal Society of chemistry. But a Shameless plug that was called young and in charge while things are looked at is the changing demographic of leaders and head teachers and a lots of headteachers been appointed now late 20s early 30s. So the question I'm calling around to is should experience be a factor in any promotion particular to headship and does enthusiasm count for more than knowledge that some of those sort of earliest ages. I think you need both and I see this as well and I think it's one of the effects of having a teacher Recruitment and Retention challenge. Let's say that that people are promoted early. I have to goddaughters in teaching who are great, but that the speed at which they seem to have accelerated through the levels is a bit breathtaking and I sometimes worry that people are being promoted to significant leadership responsibilities without quite the life experience to be able to deal with A member of Staff who are considerably more mature and have a lot more years under their belt than the leaders. So I don't want to sound ageist about that the and I think it is experience rather than just years teaching and obviously quite a few people come into teaching and they've had experience in other professional areas. So they bring all that with them as well. It's not just miles on the clock when I became head of English. It was interesting. I was 31. And it was a very well-established staff in this school and actually at 31. I was the second youngest member of staff and and I was heading a large department but I wouldn't say I was inexperienced and someone on my in my team one said something to me about lack of experience and I said, can I stop you there? I haven't been teaching as long as some people I wouldn't equate that with lack of experience because I've taught in three different schools. I'd had three differently. Responsibilities. I've been quite a lot beyond the classroom like the exam marking whatever so it isn't about age but it is sometimes about life experience about maturity about empathy about emotional intelligence because leadership is all about relationships and I think sometimes if you accelerate too quickly through the levels, you're almost heading for a fall because you're being presented with things that you don't necessarily have those life skills, but I do think enthusiasm is really important because the opposite doesn't work. If you just think what they've been teaching so long therefore they're ready for this responsibility. It is about skills. This is about temperament. It's about your approach. It's about your philosophy. So yes, you do need both. I think sometimes people are promoted to Try and find that been promoted beyond their competence and that doesn't mean to say they would never be able to do that job, but perhaps things have just accelerated a little too rapidly. And I think it's a danger. I mean looking at sort of the demographic of leadership in terms of age, but also in terms of positions that people have taken up so because budgets are tight because there's the kind of financial restraint there. People are given extra leadership responsibilities on top of everything else that they're doing and those positions tend to go. Go to newer, you know, potentially younger teachers because they're more willing or more able to be able to do the extra work that comes with that. So that's a little bit of a challenge as well. It may be and I think one of the things also allows their little bit is how how large some senior teams are getting because I think with the Recruitment and Retention issues, some heads are trying to hold on to promising early career teachers by giving them promotion giving them opportunities when actually probably what they need to do. Is consolidating their current position and then move somewhere else for a different job people don't want them to move. So what can we offer them to keep them here? And I look at some schools where there just seems to be a proliferation of senior roles and the effect on the staff in terms of trickling down workload can be really quite damaging because someone has a job sometimes it's a new post. They're very keen they're very enthusiastic. They want to make their Mark and unless someone has a really clear overview of how the senior leadership. Ship team is working and what demands they are making as individuals on often as the head of Department actually, sometimes it's a classroom teacher. They're getting emails and requests from all angles everybody plowing their own Furrow and am really interested in this particular element of leadership. But actually what's happening to the teacher in the classroom and the header Department. The middle leader is that they're just collapsing under the weight of all this expectation. So I think you need to be very careful. You do have lots of very keen people running all these projects and it's fantastic. But someone needs to have a very clear overview of actually what impact that is having on everybody else and someone called Roger caves bureaus are really good blog about how in his school every time they introduced so many shoted they do a workload impact assessment if we do this what's going to be the impact and if it is going to increase workload then what are we taking away? What are we stopping? Resting pausing what whatever it might be because otherwise we're just in a hamster wheel and pedaling faster and faster and it's not sustainable. So I do think there are dangers in having too many leaders all desperately trying to make their Mark. We need to look at the school as a whole and the impact on the staff who can't just be exhausted and ground down absolutely and that I was nodding along there and thinking I couldn't agree more and I've worked on teams that are bigger words on smaller teams, you know. Probably over 10 years in senior leadership now and and it's almost a danger when you have those big teams that people are almost having to justify an existence and justify a job by the number of things that they have to be seen to be doing to make sure that they stay on that team and you're right. It is impacting on the middle leadership and the classroom teachers are this intervention overload that seems to happen and you know, nobody can get ahold of that. I don't know what your Reflections on the island is now Jill, but I think that schools are working between to be streamlining more they're singing. Like your teams and going back to a more traditional structure of head. Well, then perhaps a CEO of an academy trust and then ahead and a couple of Deputy heads and maybe a few assistant head teachers. I'm talking today. I think I mean it depends and I don't think it's about structure. I think it's about it's about perspective and it's about overview. I think that the important thing is that people recognize that it's if we could do less and do it better fill it would take us further forward. Streamlining is important not just streamlining of structures and teams, but in terms of priorities in what are we really going to focus on this term this year? What could we perhaps park for now? What is on the horizon? It's on our radar. We need to look at that. We don't need to do it now and I think sometimes again we're just driving ourselves in each other too hard because we're trying to solve everything and we're not doing anything quite as well as we probably we could so whether you need a leader a senior leader ahead of see a CEO. I think there needs to be some Clear Vision and priorities and a simplification really I think would strengthen what we have to offer and and the provision that the students got absolutely. Okay. So I'm just going to move into the next section of the podcast and I'm going to look at your book making the leap now in another sort of Shameless mention of edu celebrities, so As you know, Steven Tierney is our CEO and he actually he actually gave me your book. So he owned it was a well-formed copy that he'd read cover to cover and I even have think I've got some of these notes on this here as well. So this is well read book and something that I've used a lot and haven't been successful in making the leap from assistant head to Deputy yet. Nevermind Deputy to head but if and when I do, I feel like I should be ready. So if I could just um pick some of these sections with you a little bit. So the first thing is, what are the key principles for anyone who is thinking Thinking about applying for headship. I think one of the thing about making the leap is that I was specifically thinking about making the leap to headship because it was based on my research and that was my phone cause I had six participants were all deputies it already got the head shapes and I tracked them through the final moments of Deputy had you been to the early months of hardship and I analyzed the transition and the challenges and the strategies and what the experience was like, but actually the book is about making any leads. And both of the advice in it is just as relevant. If you're going for your first middle leader position or a senior leader position or one senior leader position to another I actually wrote A Blog about moving from assistant head to Deputy Phil because someone said to me, what is there out? I know you did. There's not much. So I'll write something and I think it's quite difficult because assistant head you've is a broad Church Deputy head. She was a broad Church. Some people are called. Assistant heads but in effect their job as a deputy job. So it's quite complex and nuanced but I think so making the leap really whatever the leap is. I think it's about doing your research and finding your fit. So not every job that has the title of the job that you think you want. Next is the right one is not necessarily the right context. It might not be the right time. So do your research find your fit use the research not just to decide whether you're going to apply. But to make your application really strong and persuasive and convincing because you need to demonstrate. This is what the job seems to require. This is what the school seems to require. This is what I have to offer and based on my past experience and achievements and my learning and my impact I can show that what you need and what I bring are aligned and I read a lot of draft applications and I read too many. See that just start with a list of everything I've done in the past and I think no don't do that and don't use a previous application. Just turn it out again. You need to start with where they are not where you are. You need to think what do they seem to need? And how can I connect that to what I have to contribute and use the words contribute bring give offer and that if your letter is sufficiently compelling will get you She where you just do more persuading and you're learning you're finding out you're listening to people you're tuning in to this particular school at this particular point in its history and what contribution you can make you how you can add value by bringing your insights your temperament your skills, which should complement the skills of other people in the team and the school. So whatever the promotion is, whatever the job is not just head. Set those are think of the key principles that you need to Bear In Mind through through the process. Yeah, absolutely. I'm just looking at the section where you talk about one of my favorite books, which is how to change things when change is hard. So and and looking at the point at which you have been successful and got an interview and then you're in front of a panel which can include middle leaders and some senior leaders and it's how much do you look at fighting what's good about the school already and I wish you can empathize that and then how much you can make small changes without saying everything that you've done before. You would currently bring to this to this school and that's a challenge. Definitely it is because sometimes when you apply, there are things you've done that you're really proud of that. They think will actually that is not as relevant. That's that's not really what this job is focused on and you have to have the self-discipline and the courage to say I'm just going to put that on one side. I'm going to concentrate on other things. I looked at them Caesar you today to someone who's applying to headship and and in terms of professional development should just kind of put down everything that she's ever done almost. And I said, I would always say recent relevant professional development includes and then just put down the stuff but clearly aligns with the job description and the person specification that you're going for. So you need to be selective you need to and if you're writing something or saying something you need to be constantly asking the so what question is, why am I saying this? Why am I telling this? So what what what does that show about me that's relevant to this job. What? Am I discussing here that align with the areas of responsibility of the job? I'm trying to secure. So I think you need to be quite well, you need to be discriminating about what you apply for in the first place and when but you also need to be discriminating about what you include in the application what you focus on interview or when you're visiting and you constantly need to be tuning in because every school is different and if you go in blind we thinking I know how to do this job. I've done a similar job in a different context second head shapes can be notoriously and successful because people sometimes go in think I can do this job. I've done this job. I've been a successful head I know what to do and they don't question their assumptions. They don't look at the the Legacy that they're inheriting from the previous head. They don't think about what this particular context requires and as you say it is about what are the strengths and how can we build on those? what's going well here that we need to preserve and maybe develop further and are there new ideas I can bring but you have to be able to do that in a very sensitive way, which doesn't seem really critical of what's gone before because actually that's disrespectful and rude and you're not you don't know enough yet to be able to condone what's gone before and what you and pet project that you've done another school that you are really passionate about may not actually be right in this context. You have to try to sort it all out. That's real fine balance between looking to say what impact your bring and complimenting the skills of the senior leadership team that you've already got absolutely because how do you fit in sometimes you could one of the things I say to people and they're disappointed if you don't get a job, it doesn't mean say you couldn't have done it. It doesn't even mean say you couldn't have done it. Well, but maybe what you had to bring didn't quite So already there maybe you were too similar to someone else on the senior team and what they needed was something different that would that would complement and fit in so it is about how you are going to lead that team. How are you going to build and develop and take that team forward interestingly the other day I had a went down to London with the woman who she's in her eighties now, but she was ahead to appointed me as her deputy and when she appointed me she knew that. She was going a year later. So she knew she was only gonna work with me for a year. And she said actually I recognize that you and I are quite similar, but because I was going at the end of that year. I thought you had what the school needed if we've been working together for five to ten years. I might not have appointed you because you and I were probably too alike. So it was what the school needed at that particular point in its Journey. So complementary skills and the idea that the Team, the whole should be greater than the sum of its parts what people can achieve together is so much greater than what any individual can achieve in you're adding it all together. It has to have a dynamism if you like of its own and energy. There's a piece in the test last week about Team Dynamics and saying if a team isn't working it may not be that the individual members are incompetent. It's just that they're not working well together. That's right. And the leader has responsibility for trying to make the dynamic better. Absolutely. So it's fascinating stuff and just looking at people that are appointed to new positions in different school. So what are the challenges of the period between appointments and formally taking up the role? And I mean that in the sense obviously you've covered it in Chapter 3 of the book but both from the perspective of the school that you are leaving to manage that transition period because you still assuming you're going for headship or a senior role quite significant player in that school. And managing the lead in to the new post. It is a challenge for lots of reasons. You're balancing different things you need to do be doing a very good job in your own school and you're employed there until the end of August or whatever and really your loyalties need to be there. But at the same time inevitably your head is starting to feel pulled somewhere else and and sometimes you're asked to be involved in the new school or make decisions or get involved in interviews or whatever. It might be. So you're juggling things. But any any good senior leader aspiring head is a master juggler were all gibbering all the time. So you ought to be able to keep those things in balance as far as you can the main opportunity of the leading period is the opportunity to learn to continue to prepare to fill a few gaps to start to establish yourself to start to build relationships with your Going to your senior team, whoever you can really and I talk in the book about how it's a chance to know and be known so you get to know more and more about the context you moving into but you also get the chance to begin to be known and to establish yourself. So that people know who you are what you're about and they know something about the leader you really want a hope to be and you may not be where you won't be that leader on day one. It may take time because we build a bridge as we walk on it. You learn to be a head from being a head. You can prepare in a number of different ways, but you don't complete your preparation. Probably even by the time you move out of that role. You still still learning. So the lead in period is a really important time. There are some thinking about headship specifically some outgoing heads who feel a little bit threatened by this incoming successor. So sometimes the heads that you're taking over from May not be as welcoming and as constructive as they could be and although I can sympathize with their feeling may be pushed out or redundant or Surplus to requirements. That's something that the governor's actually have to tackle because it isn't about the outgoing head. It isn't about the incoming head either. It's about the school and the transition has got to be well managed or the school can suffer. So that's one of Challenges of the lead in period but it's a great opportunity as well and certainly by the end of my leading period which was 12 months. It was a full year. I fell I'd moved forward in my understanding and in establishing my relationships and when I started my head shit looking back things went much more smoothly than they might have done because I think that year had been well used by me and by the school and I think had managed to establish myself there without dropping. Keeping the ball in the school where I was a deputy in during a busy job there already and just thinking about that some schools now have got very long leading periods. So jobs that are being advertised, you know say at the moment might be a September 2020 start. For example. Yeah, just a smaller question. Really, you know, how important is it to make, you know, the wider staff aware of the fact that you are leaving and is the potential for I think of a football analogy but as soon as a football manager announces that they go at the end of the season, you know performance is dip. So how important is It to communicate that and who should you communicate that to I think you need to be as transparent and open as you possibly can and know there are sensitivities around when you release information, but it's awful to be in the position where you're not able to be completely honest with people because you're trying to protect confidentiality. So it doesn't need to be properly managed. I mean my feeling is that having more time is better than being tight for time. So I'd rather have Have a years leading period than then a term. I think it for me. It was very useful and I announced well, I mean I said I'd be ahead in that school for 10 years. And periodically, I reminded people that it was 10 years. So there wasn't a sense of surprise when I when I was going but we appointed my successor early and I was able to say to the staff and to the parents and to the next generation of parents coming in. It's ages until I go and I'm not going to be an effective in this last year. I want to make my last year almost the best year. I possibly can and then and we've got a fantastic head coming in after me and she's already coming in and meeting people and using her lead in Period. So there are ways that you can manage it. I think it would be unprofessional of anybody to really take their eye off the ball and think well, actually I don't feel so committed to this job now. I just can't wait to go. I can't wait to to drop some of these things that I don't really enjoy or can I hand them on to somebody else as early as possible? I think that's unprofessional. I think we need to do the best possible job. We can just one interesting aside here. So I did some work with middle leaders in a school. I'm doing a lot of work with middle leaders. Actually. It's interesting. I think a lot of schools have recognized the fact that if you want to secure even better standards of Teaching and learning you need to work to strengthen your middle tier. They are really key. And it was a program of Twilight sessions and one woman looked very disgruntled and she came up to me at the beginning and she said I just want to say I'm retiring at the end of this year. So what on Earth is the point in me doing this leadership training and she sort of had a little bit of around and then I said, you know when you teach a student in year 9 and they come up at the start of the year and say I just want to say that I'm not going to do your For GCSE so why should I bother to do anything this year? How does that make you feel don't you think that if it is your last year you want to make it as good a year as it possibly can be you might be retiring. If not gone yet. There are things you can learn if there are ways your leadership can be even more effective. Isn't that what you want to do for the team you lead for the students who serve for the school that you've been out for however many years and she was actually fine. She was great on the course and she did try and she did learn but there was just a moment of well, I'm going so what does it matter it always matters. It matters. Doesn't it for the last day here in post and I think people who are committed and who are dedicated and conscientious. They don't give up. I've certainly never given up. I've given my all to the last day in post even when I might be feeling very excited and energized about what came next okay? So maybe I'm from the last days in your current post into the sort of the crucial first hundred days in a new job. So what are the challenges of those early months in a new position? One of the things that that very much came out of my research was the idea of assumptions. We all have assumptions and we don't realize their assumptions. We think this is just how it works. So I think we need to do a lot of listening. We need to ask questions rather than making statements all the time and sometimes Very much pushed to make statements. You know, what are your priorities? What do you want to achieve? What what are you planning to do in the first hundred days, and the answer is I'm going to do as much as I can to take the temperature to learn to listen to work with people to build those relationships. So I think you need to recognize that you're not going to say. Oh you don't come in with all the answers and that you need to work with the people that you're going to be leading. You need to get to know them. They need to get to know you. You I had one-to-one meetings with all the teaching staff and a lot of the support staff in my first in my first term actually 20 minute meetings, and I just so tell me one thing about the school you hope might change in the next few years one thing you hope will never change and I just want to listen. I just want to take the temperature and for lots of reasons. I'm really pleased I did that because people thought this is someone who's interested in us. She wants to know what Working on what strong what to protect my view my voice matters and one woman. I think I talked about in the book. She said can I just say before I tell you my two things, you know, I've been here 11 years. I'm a parent at the school. She was part-time PE teacher. She had never had a one-to-one conversation with the head before and I've certainly never been asked what I thought about the school before and if she wants out of my office. I thought this was worth doing for that remark alone. So, 800 years ask questions. Listen to the answers show you listening feedback. Can you have some quick wins where people recognize actually this person is taking seriously what we think and I treated SLT chat Sunday of last week. I think it was about staff boys. And I said, I remember ahead saying sign of a really good school is where the least experienced member of staff can have an idea and no Be taken seriously. I think you need to bear that in mind. It's not just the people who've served the longest or who are most senior when I saw these staff. I said to my PA, I don't want to see the senior leaders and the middle leaders and the teachers and support staff. That sounds absolutely the wrong message. I want to see everybody mix them all up and I will just listen and then I'll draw some conclusions from what I've learned. No fantastic. Fantastic. So once you become established in a new leadership position, so how do you move Beyond being seen as the new leader and and the other the decide they should do that is I think of your sort of new leaders that I've worked with sometimes. Do you have a kind of nudging jog run the SLT table when they say my last place we did this last place we did this and then eventually after a couple of years it wears off. So how do you have Beyond being that a leader? It's really not a good idea to keep saying, you know at sensor weed and yet we all do it. It's perhaps it's impossible to avoid but I think rather than saying, you know, we did this if it's in your mind that that's a possible route forward. It's far better to Fabius. Have we ever thought about doing it this way or have we ever tried that or what do you think to rather than you know at my last place therefore this is what we ought to be doing here. I think it's difficult. I think it actually probably takes a couple of years before you really I feel it's your school. I went to I do some mentoring of new hands and I went to visit one new head this week. She's just starting here too. And she said it does it's starting to feel like my school. Now if I go into two year to the yearly cycle helps doesn't it when you've been round the year's calendar and you've experienced different things and you've had your first this that and the other you think right there's something familiar about this now. I know how it tends to work here. But I do think it takes what a while and my advice to two new heads who then become, you know, you're not the new head anymore years ahead is just constantly to make sure you evaluate the progress you and as a making give yourself credit be kind. It won't all go absolutely swimmingly and they'll be unexpected challenges and you'll make mistakes, but that keep assessing how far you've come and where you're going next. What are your priorities? Rarities so that you do have a sense and the people around you have a sense that you are settling consolidating embedding things making an impact making it yours making your mark making it your school. I think probably in the first year you can sometimes say well sorry got that wrong. I'm new you can't keep saying that gets to a point where actually you're not new anymore and you can't use that. An excuse for making an accurate assumption or or whatever. It might be. I think it's fine to change your mind about things. I think compromise is a strength not a weakness. I think you have to be able to adapt flexibility is really important. But I think you also have to take responsibility and accept people people don't expect their leaders to be infallible. They do expect to be honest. So if anything hasn't quite gone, right right, you need to be able to say I'm holding my hand up there. I think I misjudged that but I've learnt I won't make the same mistake over and over again because that's what people I think don't accept but it can take a while before you feel very much. This is my school. This is my office. This is my role. I'm starting to feel comfortable in it. Okay, just move it into what will be the last question of this section. So I'm just trying to tie up a couple of points with something that I'm particularly interested in. So we talked about The promotion of teachers out of the classroom and we talked about the proliferation of SLT roles but assistant heads for lots and lots of different responsibilities. So how important you think that the early careers framework is in recognizing the leadership roles of mentors and coaches and I think the early career framework is brilliant. I think it's great that there is a recognition that beginning teachers need ongoing support throughout the first few years. It's not I mean when I started Teaching with long time ago, but you did in effect what we should probation a year and it's just what we were saying about when you're the new head and when you're the head, you know, as I started year to I'd still got a huge amount to learn as I think I think the whole the early career framework. I think that the emphasis on coaching and mentoring is excellent. But I think we need to continue to support mid-career teachers and late career teachers. I think heads need coaches. I think you need someone that you can turn to who is not one of your Governors who Is not within your sotl within your school and you can just talk things through and use them as a mirror. So I do quite a bit of head coaching and and I just need really sometimes to listen and to let people talk their way into understanding I think coaching and mentoring of beginning teachers for example is a real two-way benefit. It's mutually beneficial because often those teachers who Who are maybe more experience more confident? They may not want a traditional leadership group, but they need some challenges and some opportunities to be energized and stimulated and coaching and mentoring and helping the development of beginning teachers can be a really positive thing for their sense of professional achievement as well as for the beginning teachers that they're helping. So coaching mentoring a huge fan. I think we need to keep it going throughout. I actually write a blog about this as well because somebody said I had tweeted something about the early career framework and they said well, that's great. But you know, I'm sort of 10 years in or 15 years in unflagging. What can you suggest to refresh and re-energized me. So I wrote a Blog about it and what we can do to keep ourselves really interested in stimulated and and fresh and I think interesting about CPD sometimes people think a professional Channel development is is going for going for promotion really, you know, and it's it's not if you decide not to go for motion, if you're not going to change roles, maybe you're not going to change schools CPD is especially important to you because otherwise what's to stop you becoming stale or bored or drained. So we all need that opportunity to refresh and re-energize through our Korea. Absolutely. Well, I feel refreshed and energized from this discussion and writing all sorts down on top of you know, my well annotated copy of making the leap in terms and somebody else. So it's a great compliment to give someone a book like that because it shows you have faith in them. Steven have faith in you. So pass it on and I would say cut this section after the podcast now, but yes, yeah. No it wasn't it was given in that in that sense. He absolutely he didn't and balsamic Cox and I have both read the book. So, you know, it's something that we've used in training that we've done in terms of you know, implementation training things like that. We've looked at these transitions has been really really vital towards and you're right. I will find somebody that can give it to enact in many of the different schools that I'm working in. It's so satisfying that I get I get tweets and messages from people. I've never met. I don't know and they say, you know, I've read your book and it helped me made me feel more confident and more prepared whether they got the job or they didn't it. Always about that. It's about coming out of the process feeling. I did myself Justice there and I'm proud of what I achieved. It was positive. I learnt something and that's going to help me for next time. So I have to say writing the book was a pleasure but getting feedback from people who say it has been useful in their professional journey is just incredibly rewarding. Okay, so just wrapping things up Jill in terms of you've talked about your blog's your leadership training all the things that you do in is there anything thing that you particularly involved with in the next few weeks or next few months that you'd like to share with listeners doing lots of things really save quite a lot of middle leadership training speaking at conferences. I'm speaking at researcher during this term talking about Research into the transition to headship. I'm speaking at educating Norfolk in a couple of days time and it's nice to go to places that haven't been before so I'm doing quite a bit of work in Scott. At the moment. I'm actually going to Belfast to do something in Northern Ireland which which is really great. Just reaching a new audience. I'm a huge fan of women Ed. So I have to just give a quick plug for women are PA. It's a tremendous opportunity to support aspiring and serving women leaders at all levels and I'm very pleased that I'm speaking at the women aired on conference, which is in Sheffield on the 5th of October. It's based on the book. The women are 10% braver book and I wrote a chapter in that. I'll get the job you dream or so. That's what I'm talking about. But I'm just I'm very lucky Phil. I enjoy everything that I do. I love being a head but there were elements of headship the by enjoyed less than other bits that's inevitable. And now it's as if I've taken all the good bits or the bits. I really enjoyed and I know that's what my professional life is. So I feel I feel blessed to have to say life after full-time work and life after headship can be very rich and full, so don't fear it. Brace it absolutely Ry fantastic place to fish are because I feel equally blessed that I get to speak to people like yourself about all these things and then share that with other people so Jill, thank you so much for your time this evening, really really appreciate it and I'll put links to all the things we've talked about a link to the book on crapping show notes. Thank you very much for asking me feel it's really it's really been enjoyable. Thank you. Take care really informative discussion there with Jill and if you haven't got the book. And you are looking at a transition to leadership then in my view. This is an absolutely essential read and moving in to the Shameless plugs section. And the first thing to say is that I'm delighted to have been calm a fellow of the chartered College of teaching and this is something that means a huge deal to me and thank you so much the previous guest Mr. Turner for her nomination. I'm so appreciative of the opportunity to highlight the work of the college through my own work and through the podcast and I feel passionately that as a class. Teacher I have a voice to influence the future of our profession whilst want to thank yous it also like to thank the team at teacher tap for featuring my blog a routine matter last week. The surprise was just unbelievable. So Simon Cox who listeners will know is the director of the Blackpool research School sent me a text saying your blog is featured on teacher tap add actually looked past it but didn't recognize it as my own. So I needed the heads-up. So really really appreciate that being flagged up really enjoyed writing it. And I do enjoy writing more widely and I really must find the time to write more. So appreciate the recognition and I know how picky the art teacher tap. And thanks also to Phil Brown for his input on this. So Early Learning Links draws ever closer and the date for that is the 12th of October so you can see me if you want to on Session One talking about how we use in research and evidence to change culture in schools and saying that research at Blackpool didn't need the Shameless plug last week the ticket sales of now. Tipped over the six hundred mark, so we might have to start thinking about capping this so stay tuned, and the last plug is for next week's podcast on we have the wonderful day. Malleson peacock who is speaking to me about her work and the work of the chartered College this remains to say as ever. Thank you for being there. Thank you to listen to nail has Ngata and see you next week. Just talking to teachers talking dirty. Teachers about academic research and evidence-based practice with continuing professional development at PNA 1977 on Twitter or just talking to teachers.
This week on Naylor's natter in association with the Teacher Development Trust I am in conversation with Dr Jill Berry. Jill taught for 30 years carrying out seven different jobs in six different schools after beginning her teaching career as a secondary English specialist . Since leaving headship in 2010, she has worked as an Associate for the National College for Teaching and Leadership, carried out a range of educational consultancy work and completed a part-time Doctorate in Education, researching the transition from deputy headship to headship. Jill has been involved in #WomenEd, a network designed to support aspiring and serving women leaders in education, since its inception in 2012. She has conducted academic research on the development of the initiative with Dr Kay Fuller from Nottingham University; spoken at several #WomenEd events, and contributed a chapter to the #WomenEd book: ‘10% Braver – Inspiring Women to Lead Education’ (Sage 2019). Jill is an advocate for the opportunities presented by social media for networking and professional development, tweeting @jill berry102 and blogging jillberry102.blog I discuss with Jill:   Could you tell listeners about your story? 30 years teaching, English specialist, 6 schools, masters, deputy headship and headship  In difficult turbulent times in education and the world, why would anyone want to make the leap into leadership? Do good teachers automatically make good leaders? Should good leaders always be promoted out of the classroom? Should experience be a factor in any promotion or does enthusiasm count for more than knowledge? What are the key principles for anyone who is thinking of applying for leadership or headship? Having been appointed to a new position in a different school, what are the challenges of the period between appointment and formally taking up the role? People talk about the crucial first 100 days in a new job, what are the challenges of the early months in post? Once you become established in the new leadership position , how do you move beyond being the new leader? How important is the ECF in recognising the leadership role of mentors and coaches  Her book, ‘Making the Leap: Moving from Deputy to Head’, was published by Crown House . TDT Section  In the TDT section , Maria and Ian talk about the transformational power of the CPD audit and the bespoke guidance given to schools . This work is something that I am fully involved in . Maria also talks about the TDT framework and the potential for enhancing subject specific CPD , she uses examples from very effective schools in this area. In the shameless plugs section: I am delighted to have become a Fellow of the Chartered College of Teaching , This is something that means a huge deal to me and I am so appreciative of the opportunity to highlight the work of the College. I feel passionately that as a classroom teacher , I have a voice to influence the future of our profession. Thank you also to TeacherTap for featuring my blog  'A Routine Matter' last week. I really enjoy writing and I must find time to write more, I really appreciate the recognition as I know how picky they are. Thanks also to Phil Brown for his input here. Lead Learn Lancs draws ever closer , 12th October . You can see me (if you want to) in session 1 talking about how we are using research and evidence to change culture in schools. rED Blackpool has now tipped over the 600 ticket mark and we may have to start thinking about capping this so stay tuned! Dame Alison Peacock next week. 