I think really good world-building is not just cool to have a setting and then put dragons in it or put something in it. What makes them fun. I think is specifically how they interact with various group. It's not just having that element. It's how that element changes every other element in the world. That's what is funny to a certain style I suppose. Welcome to World casting where we discuss real made-up things. I'm your host die known today. You'll be joining me in a discussion on the importance of magical beasts and animals and fiction and mythology from Iconic creatures such as the dragon or Griffin to lesser-known and ancient ones such as the sirach the role they play in The Narrative and perception of the wilderland they give us Today joining me are are of our and machinate Inky and read it would be so kind as to introduce yourselves. Hello. There. I am are I do some of the interviews for World building magazines? Oh hello. Hello. Hello. I am Evacuate the editorial chair here at world-building magazine. I'm an avid writer video gamer and World Builder and I'm glad to be here. Hello. I'm in K. I'm one of the layout artists and illustrators here at will. Building magazine and I also do comic World building. Hello. I'm red. I am one of it migrates editing Deputy chairs and I am by far the most mythical Beast here at the magazine. He's a Mormon. Oh my God as you might think all right. Oh wait, nevermind. I know what it is. Dakota no one's actually from there. There we go. Okay, then also definitely makes me pretty mythical. Yeah. There you go. You got two things. Look at that. All right, so I guess we will start with a discussion and a couple of examples of Fantastical beasts and creatures specifically ones that we particularly liked especially myself and all of you. I'm sure you have at least some kind of mythical beasts or Fantastical creature that you've just been taken in by in your long time. And World building so we'll start off with just quickly. What do you guys like that are Fantastical creatures? I mean, I think everyone loves dragons, but I think there's so many layers that can go into it or how I mean like dragons are so prominent. Just I think the first thing that if you go into Fantasy World building that everyone thinks about and how different it develop Within the genre alone like you got The Hobbit with smoke and it's a completely different Dragon than for example in How to Train Your Dragon stuff like this. I think it's just so different and although it's technically the same creature and I think that's quite fascinating and just also how you can invert and deviate within just one creature. I think that's quite interesting. Like how different cultures maybe have like a different deportation of a Dragon for example, if you ask someone in Europe what a dragon looks like the answer might not be the same as someone Asia. Yeah dragons have definitely seen a lot of different interpretations not just in modern media, but in just historically they have been all across the board. And yeah, it's tons of fun. I remember a book Dragonology way back when this just this cool little, you know expose on different. It's the dragons and what they do what makes some creepy what makes them cool is there's tons of fun reading that book. I honestly it was the ology books that because there's a series of them that it probably got me first legitimately hooked on like actual legitimate World building just for fun, you know, but for me one of the coolest mythical creatures I have read but have never found anywhere else is the caladrius. You can find it in Old medieval bestiaries that often like to play up the Christian metaphors that the like to kind of just tie into Parables and terrible stuff like that. Yeah. The caladrius is like this I guess for the simplest way to put it is it's like pure white swan but like it is capable of taking on the sicknesses of other people and then it flies up near the Sun and those sicknesses get burned away. So they are kind of the opposite of like your Grim Reaper instead of you know, being a force of death. They are a force of life. And so you can obviously see why there's a lot of Christian overtones attached to it, but it's an interesting creature and there's not a whole lot to it again. It's basically just the swan but some magical powers, but you don't have to get too crazy to create cool stuff. And I think that's what's really fun about looking through things like medieval bestiaries were they didn't they had a limited page count, you know. They had to hand write all that stuff for every copy they made and so a lot of them are very short and it's just really cool to look at actually. I feel like I come into this a little bit differently like my intro to World building in general comes from a little more of a scientific side. So a part of my brain looks at dragons and like loves the D&D side of you know, what this is just a cool thing throw it in there. It does interesting stuff. But a lot of what I feel like I like is things that feel Possible or are using physics and evolution in interesting ways. Probably my favorite is in the Brandon Sanderson Stormlight Archive series. There are great channels just enormous Crustaceans that walk around and kill things. They're like, they're insane. So those would be probably be my favorite because you can kind of buy into the reality of the world and environment and see how it exists and has a niche - a bit more of a broad General group. I like beasts that tend to do not exactly humanoids, but they have pretty much anything to has like sentience and sapiens. Like they have the ability to reason and to think much akin to what we expect of humans. And what I'm thinking of is forever. He's a unicorn comes up because they tend to be portrayed as benevolent Spirits the tend to have understanding of Affairs of Mortals will also being kind of separated from it and in that sense their interactions with people tend to be But some narratives can portray him as something of like a guardian or a a line or an entity that can provide assistance when needed but only to certain individuals. Yeah picking up on that. I also love like creatures that are rooted in ordinary animals, like for example foxes and then you got the more magical or fail like Kitsune. For example, they are bought a ring. Sing more like the direction of deities, but I think it's quite interesting to just go with very ordinary animal and add something special and human and I will send you and basically to it in a way. We don't attach to ordinary animals for sure. It's one of the things that makes Narnia so super accessible to I think I think we've brought this up before in other episodes. I mean some correct me if I'm wrong or not. Talk a lot inside and outside the podcast but having things that are simple like that like just having an ordinary creature and finding some cool thing too attached to it to give it an error of mysticism makes it super accessible for your audiences, which is just totally cool. And again, that's one of the really super nice things about Narnia as he busts out all these words for things that you already know but gives them a fantasy Flair. Doesn't really take much to make mythical beasts really not exactly true, especially in the occasion of CS Lewis. He has this almost flare about him where he's redefining some terms but he keeps so much grounded in the idea like the beavers live in a damn and they're not very clean and it's it's his whole thing that kind of builds together where you would assume this from it and having a life line like that really is what will engage your audience most I supposed for. Off since we've heard about dragons good swans unicorns and Crustaceans that will kill you. My personal favorite is the Mushu which is also known as the sirach. It is a Sumerian Babylonian four legs of a lion body of a dragon giraffe. It's great. It spits acid. Everyone loves it. Like one of the first horrifying inventions of humanity. I love love it. Perfect kids toy right there. Exactly and like every time we find a picture of it is usually embossed in Gold you can't get better than that. But the point is that all these together have small threads to them that you could weave in in any amount of ways. Am I going to kind of touch this with unicorn and how there are multiple ways to kind of approach it? There's a general way and then playing on it and making your own red with you know, the animals of Narnia. It's it's how you approach these. They're not even tropes. They're so much more heavily ingrained in US. It's how you use them in approach them. I think is what really determines the usefulness in your own world building and just like thank you had mentioned and then I had seconded and I'm going to now third myself but I went to do that. Hang on. No, it's just the fact that Dino, you know brought up that this is something that people have played with a lot. I mean just go look at some of the oldest storytelling devices that we have as human beings go look at, you know, like I stops fables and stuff. That stories that people used to tell each other when it boils down to something as simple as having animals to talk. I mean we have always been enamored with the Mystic ality of the natural world the things that could be that aren't necessarily so I think that's also that we try to find ourselves in these like oh, yeah, I'm put the fables is you try to find archetypes of human basically like human characters. And attach them to specific animals like a fox is very clever and cunning and the crow is very and Addison. I first word is relatively deceptive you have the wolf is ravenous lion is gravity or prideful and the turtle who sold. Oh, yes, although sheep that is in a sand and stuff like this. X on a plane, but from what region are you looking at the trait you're giving them and see that is that see that's the question because let's say you taking an Egyptian perspective their destructive because they are Apophis they are in the dragon of Egypt. So it's interesting to see that we have this perception of snakes because of like coral snakes and stuff that would bite Us in northern Europe and it kind of carried over into the larger consensus especially here in America and it definitely over in Europe as well parts of it. Yeah. It says that natural world that's informing. You know what we how we perceive different creatures and yeah, obviously not everyone's experience is exactly the same. I think one of the other interesting things to is is the mythicality that people present to them via their religion and stuff like that. You get a lot of we've brought this up before too but like a video and gods and stuff like that that created animals out of men. And we we can see those characteristics in them to that way. No, it's very true. And I mean you can take a look at the spider. I think is the greatest example of looking for a video in traits and so many different cultures. They all have a different reason for the spider. Is this Cretin and it's only really in some of the sum of the areas of the Gold Coast where you have Anansi the spider trickster God who's a trickster in a good way usually or kind of going up? And Down the River of time to help men do clever things. It's all about perception. But then you have Tolkien when he's a boy in South Africa getting bit by a spider and then he makes shelob. So you really have this whole way to view spiders that's entirely different depending on your own personal experience with them where you live Etc though. I think most people kind of agree that they are a naturally creepy and some way I think like you'd I think what also is interesting that we also have a different view on nature in general depending on where we live. Like I think Japan is like a very prominent example for me if they there is so much respect for nature that a lot of the spirits were rather Cami take some form of animals or other neutral and it depends more on how you treat them then how they are in. Their nature how we would use them in Europe. For example, where we have the bad wolf and the good lamb. Yeah, exactly the interactions that we have had with nature and especially you can see in folklore like with the comedy in Japan that almost Reverend tone. Whereas in America, especially the United States. We have a lot of folklore about the Wilderness being unsafe and dangerous because that's what we found when the original Colonists came here. It's mainly the Bears. At least the Bears guys. Yeah freaking huge Bears cougars mountain lions, but I really enjoyed the discussion on what we're talking about is essentially culture and Nuance the meaning that societies are putting on these creatures which just shows I think just how much they mentioned is to the topic of creatures because we haven't even really gotten to like any sort of physically make our reasoning for Animals is just kind of our perspective if that makes sense as people. Yeah, I mean definitely is how we relate to animals in general. I mean just feel look at which animals we select to be all livestock or which we use as pets for example, someone very exotic. You probably won't have a snake because of certain connotations that has and it's not for many people don't see them as cute and I mean, okay, they are also difficult to take care of but I think this is also a huge Cultural thing and it says what about your cacio will bullying than actually the animal itself. Yeah, I think there's an interesting thing that you touched on in there to about so not just the cultural aspect as far as like artsy culture goes but also how they live how you said this sort of animals that we choose to domesticate to work with kind of makes you wonder why you don't see more often. I mean you do see it often enough but something I wish was delved into deeper in a lot more settings is how those animals and mythical creatures and stuff like that. Would actually interact with the society that they are being involved in we constantly see Dragon Riders and stuff like that which by the way sounds ridiculous to me a giant creature that could you know, burn your entire Village the ground and you're just like we're going to domesticate you but it's cool. It is cool rule of cool again a huge advocate for aural cool always Trump's but it's one of those things where it's like what sort of role do these creatures play in your Society should be a major question. You ask yourself is this creature something that you can get some sort of product from or is this creature something that you seek companionship from? Does it help defend you, you know those sorts of questions. I think lead to some of the most interesting not only creatures but the way that they're utilized in a setting Yeah, I think that that's really just kind of really good world-building is it's not just cool to have a setting and then put dragons in it or put something in it is to make a CH as fun as dragons make every setting what makes them fun. I think is specifically how they interact with various groups. It's you know, it's not just it's not just having that element. It's how that element changes every other element in the world. That's what is fun to a certain style I suppose. yeah, I think this is also why I actually really love the dragons in How to Train Your Dragon because they are forests are actually anime basically and because they also didn't understand how to interact with them in a peaceful way or to understand them and try to understand them and how they act but I think this kind of way is something that really haven't quite interesting and something about usually and other Fantasy Dragons are Always sentient and one kind of want to be with human or insert. Any other race that also can become a dragon rider, but with no real used to it or they don't really have a benefit to it most cases. So I think this was also something about iPhone quite interesting and there's a slight tangent and connecting back to what red said how it seems ridiculous that humans will ever get to ride these massive Predators knows dragons to eat. So I think that's taking the matter more into an exacerbation of human tenacity considering our place in real life on that should be like the predator-prey food chain based off our size and physicalities. It really doesn't make sense in real life. So it's just, you know, stepping it up when you can make it up. Well, I think that it also plays into is there something that they can gain outside of it is the dragon more than just a beast or is it a sentient magical creature? But all right, we're gonna say well, yeah, I that is that it's kind of what I think the point is that if you really want to be kind of more on the hardcore side of world-building you have to make those justifications. I think there is a lot to be said for this is a cool idea. I would like to use it and then kind of back tracking and figuring out what you can shift around in a world to make that happen. So coming up with an interesting Society or technology or or relationship between humans and these beasts that leads. To this super cool relationship where you can have someone fly on one like that is what makes really cool world-building to me. Well and yeah, so I was actually write this whole thing. I'm thinking to myself. It's not just humans that interact. My classic example is Avatar James Cameron's Avatar. The entire biosphere of of Pandora is connected in a way and that see that's the other thing too. Is this is another Arena where it doesn't really take a whole lot to make these ideas tie together. They've all evolved together in a way that They can communicate through the weird like spinal tap in their ponytails as weird as that sounds too, but it's cool to see people though like James Cameron who take these ideas so I could be cool to have this giant six-legged Panther running around the forest wouldn't it and saying about how does that operate in the grander scheme of the setting and having all these creatures that have evolved together and have learned to in a fashion become codependent on each. each other Was really cool idea and it helps sell that rule of cool to other people. It makes it feel infinitely more organic. If you can tie these cool ideas into other ideas that really helped ground your work into what is or less cohesive setting even if it's well outside our normal understanding so this all gets into our second topic about ways to tie them into your settings and we've kind of touched on ways that they are utilized I guess and I guess what one of the points would be for you guys is how do you feel like the ability to tie them in can be justified through nature? Like God's Mortals like as nature would be Avatar Gods would be honestly Greek mythology making a pegasus like Poseidon those or Mortals domesticating them like in real life with horses, or you could even jump into biopunk in that direction to yes exactly. Do you guys feel like Is a necessary piece of world willing to try to justify them. I know that we touched on it slightly, but do you think that it's a good way to make it feel more plausible at the very least. I think it will greatly depend on intent and focus and I think for many you'll be kind of door all their own world building style and of course experience, but that's something that can that can change with research. For example If this is kind of starting off with it, for example, it's like every setting that goes into fantasy medieval has some sort of horse analog. I don't think we I don't think we ever really question why there is a horse analog because in real life, it just makes sense sure. They need something to travel. They have four legs taking travel better than most people and on foot sure, whatever. It's called a horse Chocobo, etc, etc. It's there. And then when you get to something more unique, let's say someone give me something more unique. I'm blanking out giant lizard. Yeah, for example, you have these domesticated giant lizards and then you get into this whole Ecology of similar to dragons. Why are they domesticated with the accomplished are they naturally Predators where they bred? There's all these details that you can then figure out and those details are what can make your setting and their presidents and you're setting unique but it all depends on what it's important enough that these giant lizards are highlighted spotlighting given reasons for doing what they do in existing even Yeah, I think it also depends on what place they actually have. Like are they some kind of mystical beings or other actually like in a very domestic life very present and or maybe they are even creatures that might exist but might also not I think it really depends on what place they will have a new story you're telling yeah, I think medium might have a lot to do with it as well because I know when I play Dean I do not care where something like dragons created by God's Great mind flayers time travel from the future. Great Albert our experimentation awesome idea. It doesn't matter but when it comes to you the the stories fantasy story that I read. I tend to lean a lot more tours. I think plausibility and sort of what's what I think is almost a new sort of genre of science fantasy kind of where it's a secondary world that's has magic but is treated kind of plausibly. I will continue in you to bring up Sanderson because I love those books but a lot of what he does is that kind of thing. He has a lot of unique creatures that completely different from from everything else that are tied into the magic and the world specifically like the giant Crustaceans for example in storm. Like there is an entire world that is ravaged by hurricanes magical hurricane such as hit the world. So what happens Evolution doesn't come up with a lot of like mammals necessarily it's more like an above World coral reef. So carapace become the thing instead of Is they have these very slow large craft that people ride so that kind of stuff really bringing it into the world and connecting it and all those cool ways it like the way that Evolution could have gone is what I prefer in that Medium. Yeah, I definitely can agree with that. I don't think I've really ever paid much attention in a D&D game of like where the horse comes from her or like writing dogs, like maybe a joke about what kind of dog it is, but I don't care about the history of domesticated dogs and dandy, but when it does come to the fiction that I read I definitely prefer something a little bit more plausible. That's kind of like a simpler curved line to try to understand it and it doesn't need to be terribly complex like that. You mentioned the storm light. It's Storm track World fewer mammals giant crabs. That's a perfect line. I can see that that makes sense in my head. And I think that's the goal to aim for in world-building is to just kind of different people have different lines for plausibility that they want. I really appreciate it for some people that's not necessarily what they're looking for like Terry Pratchett. There's a lot of yeah, you know, it just all kind of really cool stuff. That's very fun. And that's kind of what the focus of the story is, but I feel like for people who are specifically reading a magazine and listening to a podcast about world. Building I think that level of plausibility is something that you're looking for probably and if not, there is nothing wrong with it. Oh, yeah, cool giant giant jellyfish that guy and they build battle towers on them go like do you but if you're that's real looking for I think you'll find like Minds on there's nothing wrong with hybridizing your approach either to I mean, one of the coolest stories I recall and I'm sad that it didn't go farther than it did but Ian culphers the Trillest houses one of the most interesting creatures in there and I struggle to call to throw away because it's technically a huge part of the plot. Which also I suppose I should say spoiler alert, but you know, there are these parasite things basically that once you've had like a near-death experience you sometimes gain the ability to see them. So this group of kids has the ability to see all of these these parasites that just kind of latch onto people the people are convinced that these things are secondly the life force out of people because they constantly seem around people who died but that line of plausibility doesn't necessarily have to extend from Thing set in science or even set in logic in some ways it can also just be a simple line of thought from this is something that is common, but we can't explain and that's that's what the parasites actually do is they take away people's pain. So you seem around people who are dying because they're they're making sure that they died peacefully and it's kind of one of the big plot twist the end of the book. It's not like anything major. It's not some sort of line that We have to say oh it's physics. This makes sense. It's not the same way where it's like, it's just entirely rule of cool. It's a wonderful line a wonderful mix in between those two things internal consistency at wherever exact box tops of you're going to have to believe this after that. It's all very consistent. I do preach exactly and I mean, I think it also depends on how I mean will be for example in the real world. We didn't believe in evolution until basically. We 200 years ago. So I think cool background knowledge for yourself when you're Whirlpool, but I think not everyone needs to know it because I think also I think nowadays not everyone knows exactly how Evolution works. But like how the heck did we get the red pandas? Where do they come from? I don't know all we don't know it. I think there's well when read in a panda love each other very much. Oh jeez. Oh, hey dodo, not there not there. That's something else entirely. Well point being is that I think it's still okay to not know everything or make everything like absolutely plausible because we still don't know everything and you can never know everything and I think you just want to make it consistent with the new world. Yeah, it's already or sad at some point. You just don't question it and you usually just want to make an immersive world that feels right more than it should be logical. I think yeah, an immersive world does not have to be an exhaustive one. So I think I mean it's definitely cool to think about it and like which physical laws and he put me to the altar to have like a don't know giant centipedes or something like this or to make it possible and but I think you don't always need to explain everything or even to yourself. Yeah, and the touch back on the consistency point the other part of it aside from just the craters perspective creating something. That's either cool. That is plausible. I think a sometimes forgotten resources and mention with the horses is the perspective understanding that if you do have an audience and If you're intending for a certain group of people some people readers playing into what they already know and that can help you gauge how much you need to justify or create? Yeah. Absolutely. I definitely think that internal consistency is probably the most important thing. But once again the Only Rule just try to be as consistent with yourself as you can and if you break a rule explain, why don't ya just don't break just just just don't break it. It's not worth it. Yeah. Yeah, II definitely as long as you were consistency is the main thing and that goes for more than just creating creatures that goes for literally any aspect of a world consistency in how government works social policies. If you want to create something immersive and its own way it has to play by its own rules that said I think there's a lot of fun to be had in trying to create something new using existing principles. Like I love the notion of like I love dragons, but I Not write a story about dragons because like how do they stay up with those tiny little wings and how do they breathe fire is like it didn't work for me. But you know, you take a lot like the quetzalcoatlus wasn't like an old old bird that existed some time ago and it was huge. And so you have limitations when it comes to Flying creatures at like they can't be that big because bone density and the square-cube law and they could just not fly. But how do you do that? If you use a little bit of magic, maybe if you give them very very kind of light Wings light bones. Maybe you can only ride them if like they're already in motion and you have to kind of jump on one immediately. You have a different story from one that's about dragons with all of sort of the lack of limitations that dragons would have it. I think limitations breed creativity in that sense. Maybe the dragon just doesn't fly but as a gliding animal like flying house, this is all right word. There you go. That's a different story to I think that that's what That's what fantasy can do is give you all these kinds of new stories with different creatures. The square-cube law on is a mathematical relationship. So that gets into questions of lift and other physics. I don't think you can break this the quest the interesting question is how do you overcome the square-cube law to get those things? And that is I think what was interesting to speculate about it does have a place when trying to go for a more realistic bent I suppose but it isn't something I would I would worry too much about out and World building. Oh, yeah, unless unless it's something that you're interested in totally. Yeah, but if it is, I think it's one of those really interesting considerations, especially when it comes to flight if you want to do something that's a little more closer to Evolution. But again, it really just depends on what you want to do. I find it a very interesting question and sort of how you get around those limitations leads to something different precisely an interesting thought that square-cube law is humanoid Beast monsters. Because of the heat differentials for wait, like give these huge Ox people in anime all the time and it's just like how does that thing cool down and it's just thinking on a scale of humanoid to Beast. Where do these fall and what would you still consider a mythical beast? And your guys's words. I think that comes down to relativity to an extent. Whenever I think of a mythical beasts like the first thing that props up and sister put since you put the idea in full people is like the Minotaur it's it's a human but it's a bowl and if I were to go to a farm, I would not see it. I would hope not and then there's you in a bull love each other very much. Okay, that is where it came from. We're not the point that I was making we have covered how weird Zeus is in this in this podcast have far apart two guys, but for me, it's always if I were to kind of think about what it is commonly seen in my real life and in perhaps the one ironically this means that some of the more exotic creatures on our world that exists actually exist. I would probably consider just mythical for whatever reason like why Why are they here was the purpose the platypuses? Like the first thing that comes to mind? Like, I know it's a real thing. I sometimes doubt how it exists. I don't believe it. I legitimately thought that it was a like Jackalope style hoax for like it when I was a little kid for the longest time probably up until I took like an actual biology class in high school. Well, it doesn't actually take much though for people to be convinced that a thing is like just too ridiculous to be real platypus is one of the biggest contenders except these days now everyone's so A familiar with the Platypus because of how widely it's time to about that. You know, it is exited its realm of mythicality but like it doesn't really take much. I mean, I know I enthused about red pandas quite often but like I've shown plenty of people pictures of red panda and it like like what is this thing does not does not look like a normal thing and and then people are like so like, what do they do you like? Well, they just like sleep in trees all day like sorts of cat and I'm like no well kind of It's like I mean really doesn't take much though for people to say that definitely looks like something out of place. It does not look like anything that's a normal thing. And so yeah again, I've been just like pounding the pulpit about simplicity's whole podcast and I apologize but I mean really it does not take much to push for those those mythical things whether that is mixing man and animal together or just coming up with a creature that doesn't exactly have a purpose but has gotten to this point somehow. I mean red pandas honest-to-goodness. I could not think of a single evolutionary reason for them to still exist, but they do the mola mola. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I thought it was a poet is a Pokemon. I was like, that's all is no it's a real thing crazy. I mean what I I think is even more interesting is if you just look at the striations of animals from medieval times like rhinos or something feels like it's amazing, especially if you went to the zoo or it is so in documentary or something and you know how the anima actually looks like and then I mean they went after descriptions from Travelers who went to Africa. AA things like this and then they had they went after those descriptions and Drew what they heard but it looks vastly different than how the animal actually looks like and it's so funny and I think those look way more Fantastical than a platypus or a panda ever will because it's just human imagination of often description and I think it would also be interesting to just described Animals to someone without naming what this animal is and let them draw this. I think this would be absolutely baffling. What will come up with. Yeah, if you if you have never looked at any pictures from a medieval bestiary going to ask that you pause this podcast right now and go do so, please they every really though the pictures they range everywhere from like super crazy realistic and sometimes surprisingly. Accurate too Fantastical to stick figures. I'm going to have to pause the podcast for a sec. I'll see you guys in a bit. I would definitely suggest going to the Renaissance period where they had more availability of to good art and you can look up deuter's the rhinoceros and it honestly looks like a rhinoceros that you would find in like a D&D bestiary. It has like actual armor and its legs look like they're covered in scale mail. And it's head looks like a helmet but it just like it is said though. This is yeah, he drew it completely from things. He had heard from other people. He himself had never actually seen a rhinoceros and it is somehow like a perfect. It's a Perfect Blend between yeah the Fantastical and what it actually looks like and it's cool. I think it's just amazing. I mean we had to draw something like this in our class and I think 6th grade and it was just crazy. I think is also a quite interesting practice. As I said before I cuz it's kind of grounded in what we know but also absolutely not because it's grounded in our assumptions and that's honestly all that mythical beasts are they are the common human assumptions of nature or some Fantastical element there much like mythology in that way. They were used to explain the world. Why was something the way it was the uncle of her supernaturalists those parasites you could say Those were from mythology in Sweden where it's dark and everyone's depressed and I would believe you because it explains the world and I think that's one of the aspects of mythological beasts over Fantastical beasts is that they have a place and either a heroic epic for a very specific tasks such as the simurgh in the Persian Foundation myth or such as the Minotaur where it has a mythological purpose. Us as well versus fairies in English and Irish mythology where they serve usually some nature appointed tasks like brownies clean things or red caps play tricks Etc. They serve a purpose and in Fantastical literature. We don't really see them playing too much of a purpose other than some predefined role to justify them being in the Senate and I think that's the different. I think we are in an interesting period here we kind of The same thing when we talk about superhero stories as the modern mythology where in the past these were kind of not quite descriptive but there was sort of an understanding that these stories were in some way true. And now we've come to a point where we know that Superhero stories are false get we continue to tell them in the same way. I think we're seeing with the fantasy genre in the past. These kind of descriptions were these are things that are out there. These are interpretations of the world and now we're at a point where we know these things. Are intentionally Fantastical and yet we're still telling these stories and making these creatures in Science Fiction and Fantasy and they serve as more of an exploration a sort of looking forward to different possibilities and ideas as I find that really interesting and really worthwhile. It kind of suggests that we should keep pushing the envelope. I think that's the beautiful thing about World building and you brought this up before ever. I mean that exploration is what makes world-building so Dynamic and so fun. It's our ability to take these things. We are familiar with and turn them into something else make them unfamiliar, but just familiar enough that we connect to them on on a normal level. Like I had mentioned we've been telling stories to each other for generations and eons. I mean, so since well before recorded history and you know, there's something very powerful about our ability to take what we can observe in the world and turned into something all our own I think having our own spin on it as what makes them so versatile is because there's so many options even with just straight up mythological Beast NVM ones that you can create on your own that makes them a little bit easier to have I know people who don't have dragons elves dwarves Etc and they're setting but they'll have like some kind of wolf Monster or really big bird or something along the lines where you go, that's a Fantastic Beasts, which I suppose it also ought to be said here now is Your tangent but relevant to this point you may while you're doing world-building feel like you're suddenly an imposter. This is a common thing a lot of people call it imposter syndrome. You feel like you're stealing ideas from places that that everyone else has already been before believe me. Even the most professional people out there do this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Even if you don't actually change it as long as you change something somewhere else. It doesn't even have to be about the thing. I mean you could take werewolves straight out of Bram Stoker Bram Stoker novel and No One's Gonna question it, but if you don't do anything with it, then that's where you're going to fall into imposter syndrome is where you don't change anything else about it and you're suddenly rewriting you or Bram Stoker novel then you've kind of failed but instead try and find a way that you can again. I to change the thing that you're you're borrowing or change something else about the the world that you're borrowing from. That's I mean everyone starts that way that's just how your brain works. We don't actually create new ideas. Psychologically speaking, we build off of the building blocks that we have from things that we've read things as we've seen things that we've heard. There's no reason to feel like an impostor if you're taking something and making it your own you want to have werewolves cool. Give it your own Flair. That'll help. You feel a lot better about it. The long run just don't be Stephanie Meyer and just say they glitter that's what they do. That's that's not changing enough that is imposter syndrome in a in the worst possible way. I think will also will be a very interesting option. I've read that and a novel actually was model Sushi. Sorry for my Mandarin is terrible and there was quite interesting. They took a mythical creature and in Universe they already knew about it was just the tail there were unsure if it didn't really exist and then turned out it did exist but in a different way than it did in. Chinese with collagen and I think this is also something that you could do like maybe in Universe. They think it works the way you are used to it and real world, but then it turns out to be something different just think that detective barek mostly also interesting. I have to say one of the cooler takes on working Fantastical creatures into a setting has got to be Carnival row they play with the whole idea that they're human beings have been telling each other stories about, you know, fairytale creatures for some time, but they actually find a land where they actually exist which is essentially, you know, kind of like our new world human beings had bumped into them in their Homeland and suddenly it's now, okay, they're real is this is cool to see people's different takes on it. I'm just curious if any Also seen seen a different take not necessarily just on the beasts themselves, but on what's the coolest way that you've seen them introduced into the story. There was the fables Comics did that pretty well, they have the game The Wolf Among Us recently. I haven't read all the comics but the notion was that all of these kind of fairytale creatures once you know people people rather kind of existed in this other world, and they had to be they were kind of pushed out and found their way I think to New York or something and had to live in the real world in like interact and that was that's that's always fascinating. I feel like honestly carnival ride would have been my example. I love the way that they did that and their take on traditional Fay creatures such as Pixies and pucks. It was it was awesome. I definitely was a huge fan of it. Yeah, there's it's a salt example of taking an idea that people are familiar with and kind of remix in it to your own too. Yeah, exactly. They even have their own take on werewolves in it and it's really cool and terrifying. Yeah. That was that was pretty cool. Oh that reminded me because we're speaking a series that I got hyped over Carnival row. Well even more hyped is The Witcher, which is pretty much a compendium of different sorts of mythical creatures or was I called folklore in putting into this world and it's very blatant that these monsters are usually not friends. Most of them are very hostile to that medieval setting but there are some that are more sentient that might just want to exist and be left alone. So I think the way that the which were were the world The Witcher handles creatures is it's prettier but I also enjoyed because it does play into that Grit. But not everything is a unicorn then wants to help someone which is honestly the whole purpose of a lot of fairy tales is that the mythical creature in it is not helpful. And even if it is helpful, it's usually at a cost and it's just funny to see that like so many people take like a spin on that and there's so many just just blatantly good mythical creatures are fantastic creatures now and literature but I think playing and blurring the lines is really where that would Well, like with unicorns and grit yeah, I feel like there's there's a lot of interesting your relationship to fantasy creatures really depends on what kind of again it's all come down to your medium. Like I can bring up D and E again. It's just like it doesn't matter you do whatever you want that game works best at the kitchen sink. If you're doing an urban fantasy on the other hand. There is something to be said for still taking the traditional vampires werewolves, which is and those touchdowns that people recognize and putting them. Into a world and exploring how they relate to that world. If you're doing something that's completely new secondary world and you want to be differentiated from Tolkien and like you probably want to do your own thing and come up with your own varieties of magical creatures. It all comes down to kind of what you're trying to do. If you're trying to a fairy tale retelling then again, you keep those elements because that's what you want. That's what you are trying to evoke in in the in the consumer go for no magical creatures all I'm worried about what always an option. It is low fantasy. You have to involve them in Subway. It's not a not how it works. Not everything is a kitchen sink. But man, if I could extend a second challenge to anybody I want someone to go right in urban fantasy. That was not as bad as as bright. I guess I technically she called null history like fantasy all history such a cool premise as far as the trailers were concerned boy execution on that was poor, you know, all of world history paid out exactly the same despite the fact that there are dragons like flying in the background. Centaur cops, and you just like this was this is poorly executed. You gotta give it some thought not everything works just by rule of cool this boils down back again to our discussion internal consistency. You gotta you gotta find some sort of line that makes your world actually breathe. Otherwise, it just feels like well I kitchen sink which are not fun to look at especially if you've got five roommates. I that urban fantasy probably has this whole place and I feel like there's a couple of good attempts at it. But none of them have really taken off and I think that's definitely some unexplored territory that has real estate for someone to make a name out of Dresden Files is doing a lot of that her interest in films is pretty fantastic the early books start with the first one has vampires the second one has werewolves. The third one has ghosts but more and more he kind of creates. Not only does he kind of differentiate. There's you know different kinds of vampires black court is the classic Dracula ones and Dracula was written as a I don't remember if it was a guy to kill them or some kind of false flag to fool people, but then there's like the red Court who kind of our demons that live inside people when the white kurta based on sexuality and they just do what he does a lot of factions of take those elements and does a lot of interesting things with them and brings another mythologies skinwalkers from Native American mythology and all kind of just all kinds of cool stuff. That's a kitchen sink. Done Right, basically, I would agree and the phase. Well Omega, never never. Oh, that's too good. Take on Faye. I think what's also I've been kind of difficult for. urban fantasy is to find the balance between the hiding and we'll being obvious or the Masquerade because sometimes it's like they have a human shape and like anything magical mystical whatever or a supernatural and then you have to find out how to Them to show their true self and I think there's a kind of overdone and definitely need some more thinking because it's a very simple way and I think sometimes a bit too simple. I'm not quite poured through. So yeah, just get in there and try to find things to hide them in a less obvious or less shape-shift away jumping back a bit urban fantasy, and there's will try to connect to that have we mentioned at all world of Darkness or shatter on in that regard? Now I was going to bring up Shadowrun Shadow runs another prime example of mixing that stuff together. Yeah. It's like it's like a magic punk. I'm not an expert on world Darkness, but I've played and read through a few of their modules because they have modules you have different types of books where they do say setting vampires werewolves. There's regular humans, but essentially it's a world of Darkness orders a monsters exist, and they tend to blend it with people but some Our nefarious summer evil. They want to do harm While others just want to kind of exist. So it's very similar to my against appeal to me in similar to The Witcher thing where it's pretty gritty but at the handles it so that for example vampires and I think so the PHA can get high up until like society as either business Mongols or even celebrities because of their Supernatural powers, and I guess I'm trying to think of that as a contrast to bride of Things would be different when you have these different creatures with different capabilities from humans trying to blend in to what we expect to society and shouldn't be the same and that was why I was thinking like technically things are still the same but they have a reasoning for why it is in world of Darkness. It's the apparent versus the unapparent. The Unseen World is the whole thing about world of Darkness. It's the world in darkness and that's different too bright where it is an apparent world where elves Orcs And centaurs and dragons and all. Of it are apparent they're out in the world and they have been known to be they interact regular Society in their true form. Whereas with someone like World of Darkness. You have werewolves who keep them their true selves hidden and vampires who must keep to the masquerade or be put to death the Masquerade being to never let humans know and I think that this is the line when you're trying to use Fantastical beast in a modern setting and like we always go back to Harry Potter is a Unseen World The Wizarding World is a secret to most Bubbles, you have to have the line in a more modern setting you have to understand which side you want to stay on and the consequences. They're in a both of them. So I think from here we will move on. We talked a little bit about then urban fantasy, which is its own very specific need which is you want to evoke that sense of these stories that we have have some basis in reality, but that's not everything there are there are so there are other different ways to use these beasts in different for different purposes. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, you can just place them for already discussed. Like are they good or evil or or how do Readers or players encounter them in the first place. Like where are the touch points? Basically exactly. It's from there that we have the idea of using these Fantastical beasts in The Narrative of your story of you're setting your game. Whatever. It may be every time you world build to keep a cohesive. You usually have an idea of something going on, even if it's just the one interaction so thinking of how to use these beasts In the narrative, I think there are a couple of ways to look at them. Are they allies or enemies of the characters or if the people in the area are they forces of nature they have evil of good or something else entirely. Do they have religious mythological symbolism and are they as we talked about earlier are they domesticated? Are they livestock or are they something else entirely? What do you guys think about the idea of blending them in with one of these tenants? I mean first of all that's necessary because otherwise he would have no use for them and also depends on how much of actual agency they have themselves. So especially if you want to place them anywhere on the good bed allies or enemy scale. There must be some sort of agency. I know for me, it's one of those things were having Them serve a narrative purpose where it is, you know good bad or neutral is probably the simplest way. You can Implement them making them the big bad of a story to get the protagonist to go from point A to point B is probably one of the easiest ways you can Implement to creature and that's not necessarily a bad thing that I don't know if this is the point you're trying to get into your not but to me that's that's one of the easiest ways to implement them. And because that's where we had this discussion earlier that's rooted in how we Stay in those creatures to from our experiences be naturally good or naturally evil and that ties into their agency. If it's if it's just a creature, sometimes we can paint them as as an obstacle not necessarily an evil. But an obstacle, you know, some giant creature that we have to get past that is just naturally predatorial but other times if there is agency involved in. Yeah, tying them to a good guy or a bad guy is kind of the easiest way to go. We see that with like wargs and and Lord of the Rings or any other the host of creatures. That sounds got it as fingertips. I think similarly love noting them as allies or enemies an enemy isn't just the ones that serve the dark lord. It could be. Oh, yeah something that just lives in the woods and it just it does not play nice never does. You can't negotiate with it? Yeah. I think this is also where the food chain comes in place basically again be a more in the direction of actual biology. I mean if it's a It's about basically just featuring human were and I think that but you know processes like livestock about essential then of course, it will be seen as an evil creature even though it's just existing and living its life just as everyone does. But of course then there are those creatures that are actively causing evil to cause evil. I don't know if this makes sense where it's more inherently evil. I think this is something that goes more in The Lord of the Rings Direction and I'm glad you brought up the food chain thing there too for just a second and someone can fact check me on this and editing. Hello. My name is Ivy. I'm one of the editors for World casting and I'm editing this. Episode and of course, I will be checking what he is about to say, but we had a we had an issue on creatures last year volume to that was just amazing. And if you have not read it, this is kind of my Shameless plug for world-building magazine. There are some excellent articles in there that can show you how to be considered of like the environment that these creatures would be existent in what it is that they would actually attack and things like Like that because that will help you figure out where to put it is that creature going to be used as livestock or is that a creature that if you met in the woods you learned from your youth to run away from the volume? He's referring to is called creatures monstrous magical and mundane. I also recommends, you know biological determinism from volume 3 issue 3 gender and relationships in addition. I recommend cave formations the natural and Supernatural from volume. She poured geography and lastly. I also recommend artists showcase Eric reinert with his fellow writer lays Jones from volume 3 Issue 5 economics. Enjoy the rest of the podcast and adding notes like this to your world building just kind of give it this depth to it. It's like little pockets that just feel like yes. This is in this world would know this they were talk about this. Yeah, and it's easy. It's just thinking of something small about it like like just so if they see a wendigo they know to just run as fast as they can and make bird noises because it doesn't like that or something like that. It doesn't have to be true. It just is a fact about it that people would know the character believes rather that mythology. Yeah suggested to them, which is also an interesting thing to play around with is what information do human characters have about these creatures and that's not always true. We you know, we have misinformation about bears those As terrible bears that characterize the Americas the thing about that for any creature that you're putting in as well. And yeah, you gotta creatures are kind of tricky. I know we've talked about not having to get too complicated with them. But sometimes you do have to make sure again if they fit in this is will probably one of the key things that I'm glad that we're touching on. It is finding a place for it. If it's not ecologically it is narratively having a place in your world because if you miss out on both of those things, I'm not going to lie. It feels just like a thing that's been tacked on there and you're like, what is this doesn't Serve any purpose and it just looks weird. I'm going to get a ton of flack for this but for me, it most creatures in avatar. The Last Airbender are just tacked on they serve like no purpose. You know, you got Abu though who, you know helps them get from point A to point B, but like I don't know a lot of the creatures in in avatar The Lesson or better feel to me like they just don't belong and they're there to be a fun set dressing and to to me personally again people are going to argue with me on this this point, but to me, they just it actually makes the story and stuff that I suffered to see those there in my opinion. I like the Bison. I think it was nothing man. I think the Bison was the most well done in that that should say something but just that I think that's because also because we've had the most time with the air bison so it's like oh finally figure out what the heck this thing is or some sort of lure to it. Was it like a cool? It felt like a like a gimme like this habit. I could have gone without the other ones just because it felt like yeah, like I agree with red there. It felt added on to make it. I'm like, it's consistent with what they did with the Bison one of the things I think that annoys me most though, and I had actually you can I've got people who can fact check this for you. I legitimately held at the screen because they have regular bears but there are other creatures that are mixture of two two different kinds of creatures. So you've got a Flying Bison for instance and you're like, well, hold on a second here are all the creatures of pairing of creatures or are they not and if so, how does anyone know what a regular? Sin is like in order to make that pairing apparent in the name. Hello your handy-dandy editor here again to fact-check for you. The bear that he's referring to is the earth king spare and although it does not really make sense for there to be a single bear when there are hybrid creatures in the rest of the series. This particular bear is actually strange in the context of the world keeping it consistent with our understanding of their world and you can see this in season 2 episode 14 of avatar Last Airbender you can make from that what you will this is there are so many Way more questions and then they mean is the name is the one thing that annoys me the most. I think it's so annoying. I think I kind of go with the combining two animals thing in a somewhat Wiki way. I mean look at the Platypus for example by I don't know it's just the naming of makes it so artificial because it's thoroughly most cases just name of one animal and then the name of the other anymore and that's it. That's about it. And that's usually not how your name animals. I mean, we do have different names for them in the German version and the German up but they basically work the same and this is not how you make animal name. I think this is also something that you can have a interesting or even just wacky animal. If the name is just so obviously taken from real world without actually a naming process that makes sense within this world, but it's just not going to be a right other Marine in general. We just have like things platypus for example, its novelty. It's basically just big animal it's easy as bad, but they didn't do something in this direction at all. And I think this is something that makes me so So mad, I mean it's such a great show, but this is something like it's very easy and no they didn't do it. On naming. However, I really appreciate when worldbuilders and worlds go to that effort to give that spin to name have their own naming system or nomenclature and stick with it because it makes it feel like there's definitely more thought upon into it. I can definitely get behind that and I would have loved to see more of that simultaneously. I kind of want not kind of I want to agree that there is a place for doing what they did. Did where it's just combining names because there is an audience and depending on your medium. You don't always have the time and necessarily the only way to justify what this is called X or this is called X. Sometimes you just got to get to the point and a very obvious name might be the best way to do that especially depending on your audience. So for example, like air bison is bison the air makes sense. Okay. I'm cool with that as a viewer. Cool with that and we can get to other parts of the narrative or read or seen you in action rather than trying to figure out why it's called something more World apropos. For example, everybody. Some is very still the best naming the whole show. I think there was one animal that was just called old cat or cat or I'm not sure in which order but it's basically just an old cat like yeah. It's a combination. I mean there you have to know what is a know. What is in cat? What is the catch and with there presumably don't exist in this world. Why do they call this way instead of like playing it a fly or a cat or whatever like something along the lines like maybe there is one animal that is kind of similar. But then I mean in German for example bet is Fleet. I'm also a basically flying House and things like this. Can I make it a bit different or feel more true to how we experience our world? And I mean, yes, it's a kids show basically or it was intended as this but I think this is like the teeny tiny patches that could make it more make it feel more real. You don't always have to do it. But like this is like the tiny things that that just make it more rounded if I'm a Readiness back in here a bit too trying to tie your creatures to your narrative is going to serve you a lot of a lot of really good points, especially if you're building for fiction, I think one of the most classic examples and probably the second most spoiled plot point on the internet after you know into Sixth Sense. The second was spoiled plot point on the Internet is got to be and I haven't even watched the show and I know enough about it. Is Nina from Fullmetal Alchemist? There is no upset about this but we got to talk about it is it is the perfect point though of making things and heck this ties in just the origin of a thing to to the plot making it plot relevant solidifies it with your readers. Like it's nobody's business is one of the best things you can do in order to solidify the creatures that you Make in the mind of your readers. I mean at the end of the day, you're not going to remember the creatures that weren't relevant to the story. It's just not going to happen. I mean if it wasn't for the fact that I was bringing up the fact that the test some of the animals and in avatar The Last Airbender most you probably wouldn't have thought to yourself. Oh, yes. I should probably talk about the cat owl from Avatar. It serves no point. And so it's just not something that sticks with your audience, but when you can find a way to You attach some and it doesn't have to be nearly as emotional as Nina's stories. But if you can find a way to attach it to the plot and make it relevant to your characters those creatures suddenly take on a totally different life of their own make them very solidified way that you couldn't do just look I think that is that is also just kind of a general World building principle is if you have a cool thing you want to show people make it relevant to to the characters that you're following. Otherwise, it's unlikely that we're going to Care. Yeah. Absolutely. You need to create those touch points like I mean if it's mentioned once though what it literally will not care. I think I hate it come up with it. But I think the creatures and Harry Potter. I mean, I don't think they are the best world-building wise but we remember them so vividly because they are actually very important to the plot is always something happening with them like because it's an English, right? Yeah, you're falling into the Trap that Twinkie is that Harry Potter is the exception to literally every World War II every time you have an episode. It's like you don't do this. We know Harry Potter does it but you don't do it and I think and I think the thing about Harry Potter also is that we are emotionally so Much attached to it like and I think this is also something that you always need to keep in. Okay, most people are most people are like you get into this world with such a sense of wonder and that you basically don't care if it works or not because it's not relevant to your emotions. And I think this is also something that we need to keep. In mind when we were both that we actually will build usually to tell a story or to make a game and that people even if they pretend to not be are emotional creatures. So those things white with us much more than a absolutely thought through perfectly evolutionary explained creature that serves no purpose that we never really get to experience and like I know there are a lot of little brothers love to just World build and do everything in the nitty-gritty details, but if you can't Implement them properly in the story, there's so much work that you just not going to see Exactly and it's comes back to tying them into what's going on. Good example sill Striders from Morrowind. No one cares about this giant creepy bug sure. It has a cool aesthetic and that's why you pay it five seconds of an ocean and it's the constant use of them that in grains them in your memory. There's no other time where it's relevant and that's just kind of odd bit of it is just interaction will create memory. If there is no interaction. You won't have memory and sometimes that's not always true. In the strenuous a random creature that just burns itself into someone's brain and they'll never forget it. You can't help so I think here we will wrap it up and I'll get some final thoughts from you guys. Creatures of cool use them connect them to the world both in terms of what causes them and how they affect the world's big ol cycle and I think that's what's fun. Yeah. I think if I attach points how used people to them and you can absolutely go work or just use what we have on Earth just make sure if you use creatures that they have value to your story or your game. And basically I found with them. I really like platypuses. Well, I agree with I thought you were gonna head there. Sometimes really ridiculous creatures do exist. They exist in real life. So when we're creating something for a world that doesn't exist. I think that's that's here this year free paths and really have fun with it. Like we have touched on countless times this discussion. Don't be afraid to to play with things stories that you've heard before. It's just the way that that's best stuff is made finding all the bits and pieces of stories and worlds that you have encountered that you love play with them mix them together find a way to make them work. You can come up with some really truly amazing creatures and surprisingly enough. You may not think about you could even come up with original creatures this way don't be afraid of imposter syndrome instead just focus on having fun World building things that you love the things that you're interested in. World-building should not be a droll. It should be exercising. You essentially playing God. So live it up a little make some make some really truly Fantastical creatures and it'll make your setting something that people will be talking about for some time. And finally I would just like to say remember to be consistent with what you create create something that you love and find creatures that speak to you because there's so many out there and if there isn't any makeup Finally, I'll leave you with a quote about the most infamous of dragons. The jewels and iron scales that cover me give me armor, like tenfold Shields. My teeth are swords. My claws are Spears the shock of my tale of Thunderbolt the clap of my wings a hurricane My Breath of Fire is death. You will understand that I am the great warm small.
Join Dino, Aravar, Imachinate, Inky, and Red in a discussion on the Importance of magical beasts and animals in fiction and mythology. From iconic creatures such as the dragon or gryphon, to lesser known and ancient ones such as the Sirrush. The roles they play in the narrative, and the perception of the wilder lands that they create. In defense of the magical beasts of our world, we here at Worldcasting would like to call upon you to donate to the WWF- Australia to help them combat the devastation of the bushfire. Together, we can beat the destruction and save the mystery and wonder found in our world. Link to the WWF-A >> https://www.wwf.org.au/#gs.vdc53l  This episode was edited by Zaivy Luke-Aleman. Lewis    Stormlight Archives (book series) - Brandon Anderson    Aesop’s Fables - Aesop    Anasi the Spider (folktale)    Avatar (movie) - James Cameron    Avatar the Last Airbender (series) - Bryan Konietzko and Michael Dante DiMartino    The Supernaturalist (book) - Eoin Colfer    Dürer's Rhinoceros (woodblock painting) - Albrecht Dürer    Mo Dao Zu Shi (魔道祖师) (animated series/book) - Mo Xiang Tong Xiu (墨香铜臭)    Carnival Row (television series) - René Echevarria and Travis Beacham    Fables (comics)/The Wolf Among Us (game) - Bill Willingham    The Witcher (game/television/book series) - Andrzej Sapkowski    Dresden Files (book series) - Jim Butcher    World of Darkness (game series) - White Wolf Gaming Studio    Shadowrun (game) - Fantasy Productions Catalyst Game Labs    Final Fantasy (game series) - Square and Square Enix    Terry Prachett (author) 