Hi, I'm Tony riddle. And this is the natural life stylist podcast. So way back in December. I had this crazy idea to run from Land's End to John o'groats in just 30 days, but I wasn't just going to run it. I was going to run it Barefoot to raise funds for environmental Charities and collaborate with world-leading experts to raise awareness and money for six organizations fighting the top sustainability issues of our time. I knew running Barefoot would raise many are socially extreme eyebrow and with that eyebrow-raising behavior, I would be able to provide a perfect platform to highlight the importance of connecting with our environment and those key sustainability issues of our time. So P. Let me introduce you to the man. That is Roger right Roger right is a packaging technologist with over 20 years experience designing out waste and designing in solutions that work Rogers inspired by a future where the activity of packaging is understood more holistically and can evolve within the context of an effective circular economy. He also believes that when packaging is integral to building a successful brand costing only attempt of the goods it Text and promotes but with a net positive impact on the world. We should all love the last 10% Roger and I spent a fair bit of time together and I feel I learnt so much from the conversation and if the conversation wasn't enough to go by he also join me for the final 10-mile run of the day and an ice bath workshop with Arthur pauling's and Martin but choose from the knights Collective anyway enough waffle. I hope you enjoy the sustainability chat. So I'm here with a man called Roger Roger, right? Good afternoon. Good afternoon Roger. So I know Roger through you've heard me talk about in multiple podcast now about your hoody Gordon and Roger is the son-in-law of you who Dee Gordon initially this year. There you go fishing. So Roger Get married to your hoodie. Obviously the way I said, that was like married to Tanya of course. Yeah, so I wrote is here from M&S. We're going to be talking about what I'm going to talk about Roger. What are we on for? Well, I want to just quickly say why am I here really clear? Why are you why am I here? And what are you doing? What are you doing behind the mic right now? I'm the son-in-law of the great your hoodie Gordon. I think we can call him your student. Can we I've 79 years after I think we're both students where all let's put it that way. I learn just as much from New Year's. I think it was your hoodie introduced me to you. Yeah, and we did a bit of we did a little bit of work before and most significantly after I had a bad road traffic accident. That's right. Yeah, and you literally straighten me out and then more recently you told me how to run. Let's cover this goodness. Let's just let's go back to the car accident happened in the car accident because that was quite well that's quite a big thing talking about sustainability is about how do you get back from that? Yeah. Well like I was crossing. Zebra Crossing on the way to work on the way to the station to go to work. It was bit Dusky. Yeah car approached from the left. I thought it was slowing down. So I crossed and it turned out they weren't they were slowing down but not for me for the bend that came afterwards. Wow, took my legs from under me. I had no idea. I had no clear sign I was going to happen. So I went straight up in the air and I landed on my head like that literally took all the work my body weight on my head. Yeah immediately stood up in the shock. Of it all I think it's amazing the adrenaline right? And you know, I was trying to feel my body and thank God there was some a passerby have to be a nurse said stop sit down. You might have done something a lot worse than what they should obviously happening in my head. Yeah, and she looked after me into the ambulance came and and luckily of course. I didn't have any severe injuries. I had a very nasty head injury, but that that healed up. I've still got a nice scar on my head. Yeah, but my back and my neck were Scrunched up really badly after that and and I and when I first saw you obviously I was coming to see you because I was a cyclist at that point. Yeah, very hunched over. Yeah, and I needed a better posture but that acts that accident made it ten times worse and you know, and it you helped me a lot obviously straight straighten. My back Chumps show me how to stand and how to walk and then of arc's I recently met I had to run so I'm I've been doing a lot of running recently thrilling and in the vivos of Course. Yeah, man, and that's part of the reason why I wanted to see on this on this is we going to get the run together are more be nice. But the thing is the thing I noticed when you will have occurred to me when you posted about this adventure, I see real. I realize that you when you were meeting all these people throughout the journey. Yeah something that would be coming up a lot would be plastic waste and plant and in particular plastic packaging waste. Yeah, like zero waste is it would be topic for people right. Now a lot of people sustainability people who Look at what really concerned about it. Mmm, so I thought when I wonder if I can add anything to the conversation. Can I come and talk to you about trying to tell you what the industry is doing? Yeah, because some people may not realize there's a lot going on in the background maybe not as quickly as some people would like what it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because people expect things to change overnight. It's got we don't have much patience here. Do we and it's that and if it was to happen overnight, could you imagine the cost implications? Ian's of that and the next complaint would be all this is so expensive now, I we paying so much money. So it has to be almost like drip fed in a way, you know, so yeah and it's interesting because I was people like me packaging technologists who design I just got to start coming in such a great title isn't it of packaging technologist? I love it. Well, I started I started my career 25 years ago as a packaging designer. Yeah, I would physically design the packaging. I wouldn't do the graphic designer. I could physically do that the structure of packaging. Yeah, and then more recently the Ten years. I've become a packaging technologist. She's basically you're not only looking at the structural design. You looking at the specification of materials how they're made are they other sustainably sourced, you know, and all of all of the technical aspects as well as the design aspects, you know, that's that's the job. I've been doing for the last 10 years with in a retailer in a major retailer app to BMS at the moment. Been there eight years. So I've seen a lot of I've seen a lot of change over that this is twenty year period 25-year period 25-year bid but eight years with M&Ms. Since day one I was trained as a designer to make the most of the of the materials given to us. Yeah, it's in it's in our packaging technologist designers. Just just use the mitt the least amount of material possible. So it's already in that DNA. It's already in our DNA. Yeah and until recently we were kind of we're in the shadows of these big organizations and the David Attenborough came along blue planet to and suddenly actually you're the guy you can probably help us fix this and do something about it. And actually we were work people. I have been working on these ideas for 10-15 years and you're like behind-the-scene fine and you can bring forward these ideas. You've been working on hmm. Probably that it back back and back many many times because now it was so much more important. Yeah, not only from a cynic leads from a PR perspective and your reputation as a company is is it's a threat if you don't do something about it, but actually a company like Ms. Just wants to do the right thing as well. And most of the Retailer's do as well to be fair. There are there. The likes of me are now are now helping all these companies big retailers and brands do the right thing. Yeah comes to plastic packaging. Yeah, and I guess like I said, the other thing I want, you know get across you today. And the reason I'm here is I wanted to try and tell you if some of those tell you about some of those things. Yeah not because I'm a I'm not an advocate for the Plastic industry by far from it, but I think people need to understand that there are unintended consequences of potentially, you know, switching out plastic into something else. Yeah might not be the right thing to do. Okay. Good to have that conversation and isn't it? Yeah. Come on, so let's do it. So there's probably there's probably four things that we do as an industry and in specifically I do + Ms. 2 and then week after it to drill a bit deeper into that. If you want to please you first thing we do and as I say, it's in our DNA we try make we try and just we try and remove plastic wherever we can and we've been others obviously as I say we do that anyway, but the Blue Planet effect has put that on steroids in the last 18 months. So we desperately trying to look at we turn over every stone look, Bit of packaging. So what can we just take off because fundamentally that's what we've got to do. We've got to just remove plastic. It's very difficult because we're we're potentially hamstrung by a supply a long supply chain. Yeah brutal Supply chamber products potentially get damaged or or go off, you know, get soiled whatever so we have we work to work within those constraints at the moment and it's I'm a you know, I'm a I'm a we're trying to work as well as that we're trying to just reduce the amount of packaging as well. But actually that's not that's not a sustainable. That's not sustainable in the long-term. Yeah, because if a if a business grows and you've reduced say a certain amount of packaging on a certain line, you still going to produce more plastic going forward? Yeah, because you're just generating more plaster you might have reduced it by 10% But if you're selling more stuff is Ukraine more plastic, so we recognize that as an enormous tree. That's not the SEC. It's the right thing to do, but it's not it's the first step so Factoring in it with growth at the same time. Yes, second thing we obviously the second thing we do as far as this is more recent really in our industry is trying to redesign the way it works. We've got to sort of re relearn Plastics rethink how we use it and try and redesign if we can that supply chain that I described as an Achilles heel for us so completely reinvent almost for how we sell products. That's quite difficult when you know, we've got some examples of that the third thing we do. If anything we are doing as an industry, all the retailers have got together and all the brands and we voluntarily have agreed through consultation with the government to pay a lot more money for the collection and clean up plastic waste okay in the country. So we pay a roughly about 10% of that at the moment as as retailers the new law which will come in new laws, which will come in over the next three years could could times that by 10 so typically a business a big retailers. Two to three million pounds for that at the moment. I've got to 20 30 40 and 40 million pounds that businesses will be asked to pay well and we're happy to do that. Yeah with one caveat. Yeah, we want to see where that money goes. So we want to see that money going into new infrastructure for recycling. Yeah, or for where the resources are whether we want to physically see the want to see what what that means spent on. For example, we if compostable packaging becomes a thing we want an infrastructure for compostable Packaging. Oh, yeah, like we were having that discussion earlier. I was I didn't realize that doesn't exist at the moment. So basically what we're discussing earlier is that you know plastic bags. Who is it by who's at the moment coops, they've introduced compostable bags which are great. But if the refuse company turn up and arrive and they see it then they may be pulling those out right but if they're left with in the compost, then they're compostable, but if they pulled out then they're not so until everybody switches to compostable bags. That model still isn't trusted. Right? Yeah and what capabilities great actually because that's what there is the slowly introducing that bag into into into parts of the UK that does have food waste collections. Not everybody only 60% of the UK has food waste Collections and only about half of those trust the bags that they getting in the in those in that way. So the coop are doing a managed approach to that but they're also lobbying government to say come on guys. Let's have a compostable system that works because there's nothing at the moment. Yeah because it's like It's the first conversation. We added a podcast we had which is with Hugo tag home. So they were one of the big voices in amongst that that the getting the surcharge on to plastic bag the 5p charge put onto plastic bags and that's a matter of changing legislation again, because otherwise people would just be going in and grabbing plastic bags anyway, and firstly, you know to the cynic it was like, oh people just going to pay five pence but no it made an 85% reduction difference. So it has to change it again. It has to be the bigger picture. It needs a change at that government. Level there's at least the fourth thing. I think that we tried to do as a company. Let's change behaviors. This is this is the hardest of the for things to change behaviors. What's normalized? Yeah, big bags is a good example where M and S actually introduced a charge for bags, you know before it was law so probably at the same time its surface again soon as you're doing their thing. I see you already charging before the law changed just we had a charge and we were pretty reduction in baggy. Use there you go and then because of who we are people tend to sort of Watch. Watching - and they will tend to follow but obviously the law had to have that they're all had to change for everybody to be to do it. Yeah, and there's still more we can do. So, can I ask what Ms. Would do what were they doing? So he enjoys juice introduced a charge of five piece a paper bag. Where does the where with the five-star talk about traceability? Where is the 5p go we used we put on to chapter 2 for Charities. Okay, and that that now that's mandated in law as well. Yeah. I've got to pay a certain amount to a charity so we did that. And we could we continue to do that it all for our food bags that we still sell running but we've just just last week actually we've opened a new store in Clapham common. I think it's clap all my videos near the station. Okay, brand-new store completely plastic free of bags. No bags why and something else that was interesting. We actually introduced a water tap. It's not revolutionary is it we've introduced a water taps people go for refill their bottles. So hopefully we can change we sort of change behaviors. What a shift. Oh, It's all happening. Isn't it? It's like it's only one store. Isn't that good budget, but that I mean surely that should be or it should be on the news or it should be on some kind of advertisement already because that's that's how you bring around that's being the change and then others will have to align with that won't know because we start to get into that competitive corporate kind of model eventually. Don't worry, you know, there is a there is a there is a thing that out there that companies big companies are scared of talking too much about their their green initiatives. I saw piece of art this fear of being called Green washers Yep. They're worried that they'll be client. They'll be greenwashing the Yoke of the you know their customers. I think they're all good thing. Yeah. I think I read something about they're also concerned that you know, some of them are doing amazing work. I mean absolutely phenomenal work, but it isn't a hundred percent traceable. So their concern is we put ourselves out there as this sustainable environmental brand then someone's going to be able to pick on something, you know, and it's a bit like the individual isn't it? You know. There is that that can happen. Yeah, you know, so we've got it we've got to try and change behaviors and there's you know, there's a number of ways we can do it. So we've done it on bags trying to do it with water if we can, you know get people to you don't need to buy any cell wall in the future who is going to buy bottled water in a supermarket. I'm not sure that's that will be a thing but it does the the convenience of the product and the packaging is so good because customers aren't easily going to change what they do and that that That's part of the problem in a way. Yeah, I think it's again going back to Hugo's conversations because they're bringing in, you know, they're fighting for legislation and moment of around bottle Banks right plastic bottle Banks and then at least you know, that that plastic bottle Bank the Plastics can be recycled inside the upside called let's say, you know what part of that part of that if you know that 40 million potentially that we pay as a retailer more part of that will be will go into the DRS system. Our system has been launched in Scotland now. Okay deposit return scheme. Yep, a lot of acronyms in retail very sorry. That's good DRS the DRS deposit deposit deposit return scheme to posit return discussion idea right back get you to remember taking four bottles of pop back to the newsagent, but that's that is that's customers got to think I got to be bothered to take it back but this could change behaviors but not just on bottles. It could potentially become. Um more ingrained in terms of what sort of other what other things could we take back? Could we could we be renting our packaging in the future all of them potentially while because we because we we have deliveries from Rivard I'm River for they can't come in Kabul box every week and we please put the comment boxes back out. They take the cardboard boxes away and upturn the new new the new boxes. Which again is a great I think a great system great model and if I'm right River Ford also this suppose this goes to the wider Point River don't Tell you seasonal fruit and veg is that these were some of the you know, they can do but I think in the UK which suffer a bit, you know, people would just get sick of eating Brassica group. Yeah. So I think some of it does it he does ship it in France Spain, but I think there's a there's a again he's the ethical part of that. That's that's two standard. I think because I think a bigger conversation we have to have as an industry. And and with the customers is the carbon footprint of what we're doing. Is counterintuitive to some of the things you think about? Yeah, the carbon footprint of a plastic bag is so much lower than paper bag. It's not even funny text. It's tiny compared to paper bag in yet. You feel like a paper bag is the right solution that actually when you look into it, that's let's reinvent what we're doing and over some old wood plastic. Let's try to remove bags all together or do something really different rather than introduce. Some things actually could be worse for the environment. Yeah, one more towards what I wonder what look what's the carbon imprint of the compostable bag then how does that work pretty high? So if a plastic bag is one on the scale possible bag is fully a 3 or a 4 and then a paper bags probably 9 or 10 looking at the An impact. It depends what you do with it, of course, but that's roughly where where it says so you can you can imagine on a bigger scale the impact if suddenly a big Supermarket changes to paper bag overnight and it suddenly gets to a confusing conversation that doesn't it because plastic bags going to be around forever. Of course, aren't they, you know compostable I guess would be the answer then if it's a three on the scale. Yeah, and then can we offset that? Yeah. Yeah, you know so that another guy I want to introduce you to Michael. Actually. I need to be Michael Thorne's and the Other days, he's a CEO of carbon analytics. Did he used to work for this myth I rang and I recognize that name. I think I think why I used to work for a couple days Smith and I think Mike maybe in the maybe the go Britt still really brain again. I mean for all businesses even down to the coffee shop. Now, they're you know, it's a big big companies down to the coffee shop. And so that you could go in and you could look at let's say it was a sandwich for instance that sandwich they can tell What the carbon print is of that sandwich versus another Sandwich versus something else which is going to be incredible when it moves in that direction. So then that comes down to the individual then making that decision to which would then drive. This is what we want to be selling based on. Yeah people's preference you get ya get into human behavior again, aren't you? I mean, I can't I can't I'd love to say to all our customers go vegan that's going to save the planet that's going to reduce our carbon footprint and massively. Whoo. Not nine people are going to tell me to go away one person might give it a try. You know, you've got to make that decision for yourself to you know to change the world if you like. Yeah, of course. Yeah, so I went I went meat-free and milk for you this year kristaps just stopped and I'm loving it. It's brilliant. No sir. That's even a mean that's a huge conversation itself because I had a I did interview with someone. That's the ethical Butcher and we talked about holistic management. So holistic management if you imagine you had like the grazing And original you around an apex predator that would move the animals around right? So they if you had a field this big they would get the grazing animals and they act like the apex predator and they move the the animals into the into this segment. Let's say right into say a twentieth of this square and then the animals are then just their grazing grazing Gray's poop mush it all in. Yeah, and that's sequester's carbon, right? So there's this this there's a conversation hasn't quite come through yet. There's more to it. There's a bigger picture there. I am discovering more and more. We're that holistic management. It sounds very interesting and then you can move onto land. That's basically it's not being used and then we can start to change change the landscape again. That's the thing about compostable of I degradable Plastics. Yeah, if you don't do that, you're sequestering the carbon. Yeah for as long as you can keep that material in the system. Yeah, you can reuse and recycle plastic over and over again. That's that's locked up there soon as you put it in a compost heap a carbon is a is entered atmosphere. And that's one that's one of the disadvantages one of one of the few disadvantages of other biodegradable or kumbhaka pasta the papers this packaging. Okay. Clearly, we want to keep that in the system. That's kind of the the recycling is that way down the hierarchy. Yeah, and so is compostable really you really want to keep that material in the system if you can so we do a lot with doing a lot of work to try and put recycle material into our products where you can and customers are coming around. As well as historic as for example, we've removed the black food trays. I'm sure you don't eat actually don't even microwave meals but a lot of people do yeah and those protests are likely would have been black. Yeah, and they're very difficult to recycle not impossible but very difficult. So when our a couple most retailers now come out of that black. Yeah wait Rose to their credit have now said to customers actually might be might be pink this tomorrow about the yellow the day after it might be a different color basically because we don't know necessarily what recycle its Coming into the system. Oh, wow, take whatever we take whatever we can get and here you get a food trade safe. It's clean. It might be a different color tomorrow. Don't worry about it. You go back five five years or maybe even two years Market is our gun. That's no way. I want my I want my black try and I don't want it to change color ever. So now that's the customers are coming around to the idea that things recycled material is a good thing and it's still a safe thing to have your and as you say it stays in the system exactly. Yeah, so we're working hard, too. To make sure we recycle material into packaging and one very exciting bit of technology that isn't ours but we're using is a system. Whereby any of the nearly nasty horrible on recyclable plastic can now be turned back into a what is called plaques basically a waxy oil which is basically you turn that back into plastic again. So there's a dis technology exists. I think there's a I think one of the local authorities and in Scotland has now got one of these machines and the way that this In design is modular. So you can just be bolted onto any existing material recycling facility. Mmm. It's relatively inexpensive and it cracks the cracks of classic down to it's almost its constituent parts and K into oil and then potentially you can use that again either as fuel or as oil to make something else. This is quite new. So we are we've launched a take-back scheme in a stores where people can bring all that nasty plastik Baptist oratory was really impossible to recycle and we're sending it to this plant to turn it into the oil before we do that. We're going to Turn it into playground equipment first. We need the first batch for that and then hopefully we'll roll this out. So that's like introducing a Dr. Dr. S. I suppose it's a stage before the day is its. It's summer if they can if they want to bring it back and this is where the in behaviors comes in. I want to persuade all our customers to bring all of their plastic back. Yeah, because they almost need incentive sometimes telling everyone I can listen, you know, once a week all your nasty plastik in a carrier bag tie it up bring it in and put it in the tape back box it store and that all of that guess genuinely recycled it not going it's not going to shift to China not getting burnt or landfilled is actually going to recycle it. Something that could potentially be remade into another plastic. Wow. So this is excite the stomach's reading over and over and over and in loads and loads of innovation out there. And if if nothing else Attenborough and it will the all the wave of quite rightly, the criticism of that ocean waste is pushing Innovation now really really strongly so people like me can actually go brilliant we can put some of these ideas back into the market. It's amazing than just its root. So reactive, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. He's we know that and then people like yourself to have been proactive for certain amount of time then it's like wow. Okay fine. And finally, we it's happening but I suppose you just take us out. It's like a setback after okay fair enough. I don't I'm not I'm not I Told You So type of person no. Okay. Let's that's being patient in the process. Let's revisit these at these ideas. Yeah something I did probably six years ago is I grew packaging add mushrooms. So we did a trial that we can actually grow. Packaging in a dark space. Yeah in the mycelium. Yeah just react but you've put it in a mold. You can mold into different shapes. So we did actually did it and we can use it as protective packaging. So when you get a don't know our washing machine or a big it had big heavy item in a box that needs protection is yes, rather than having that horrible plan polystyrene around them on the plastic packaging. And yeah, so we you know, we do we were doing things like that years ago. And now I'm I'm reintroducing that potentially into into our world. You know, what Well, no, it's just one of them. It's one of a hundred and you know hundreds of different innovations that we can now revisit, you know, so I you know, I wanted you know, I wanted to get across that there is a lot going on here, but there's so much positive stuff behind the scenes in there, you know, and I think for anyone listening is just you know, again, it's being patient with in the process and understand that yeah, but what your what Your there's change what you're doing and what's happening out there with surfacing sewage and everybody else is brilliant because it just it makes people stop and think Hmm. Should I worry is that bag? You know by a bio reusable bottle instead of keep buying a bottle of water. Yeah, and at the same time just be patient with yourself from remove anxiety. I was saying earlier, you know, there's been occasions when we've needed plastic bottles on this run. He's just there hasn't been an alternative and I could easily go into Aang. Oh my god. I've got to do this but, you know be patient with the process and just give yourself a break a bit, you know, and I think until as as we say the bigger players and legislations change and Things Are just normalized then that that voice will quiet and anyway, so with everything else that's going on in the country. This is this stuff will happen. The new taxes will come in retailers will start to pay a bit more. Hopefully, we'll see the infrastructure develop. So one thing our government has promised to do is to mandate food collection food waste collection across the UK across England, but it should should follow throughout the UK. Okay, which means then you could potentially build behind that you can build a An infrastructure for compostable which are biodegradable packaging potentially if you could put it in the food way so that yeah, so then you can tell everybody you could potentially have everybody using the same kind of packaging and all going into the right to the right place. Wow. You just want to make it too complicated for customers. I mean, I see you see those you see there's been some times where there's probably five five different holes and you've got to think oh, which yeah exactly. Yeah. We need to simplify that they just want one being for the recycler and it gets dealt with and it gets done. Properly hmm. Ideally we'd want to put it in the first place but what's left over we can physically recycle. Yeah. I work a lot on in.com e-comm. Yeah, and any business will tell you that's that's where the growth is. The only anyway, it's the only place of the growth is. Yeah. So a lot of the nightmares you see is econ packaging big boxes for the fresh air, you know, and a lot of waste up here a lot of waste there, but that is something that we're working on to. So we're looking at trying to improve Move all of that. Yeah, I appreciate it. You know James here. We had a issue James bag and lost the Drone and the laptop and cameras and new stuffs been delivered. Yeah and just watching just that just the amount of packaging that comes through we order on Amazon. It arrives really is this is this necessary? Well interesting Amazon of just it just about to make it policy for them. Obviously everyone who wants to sell stuff has to use Amazon now hmm. They've made a policy. It's Idea, they basically said to the likes of you know, the drone maker. Yeah, what we used to do your packaging is to come to us. We'd over wrap it and send it to a customer. Actually, what you've got to do now is make that packaging fit for a fit for the whole journey and we mandate that if you want to work at this, you've got to make that packaging right for the whole journey. Wow. Well, I wasn't really do now is just is just like touch pass it on to the customer. So there's no extra packaging going on that drone box for you. So they first from a certain weight and size of product. Act from the 1st of October. I think that it's mandated if you want to work with Amazon, you have to follow this process. They call it frustration-free packaging frustration through its names nice, but it's a brilliant idea ffp, you know with you whatever you whatever you think of Amazon. That's an actually brilliant. That's a brilliant idea because it just makes people think about the end to end piece of packaging rather than just adding packaging throughout the supply chain, you know, I can see that I can see other big online companies following that then - got anything in place. So you can look at the full traceability. Is there anything coming in there that's in terms of packaging. Yeah, I mean we're already were already fully traceable so we know exactly where we know. I mean we produce a hell of a lot of paper packaging. Okay, and we do something called the would report every year. So we actually can trace all of the paper obviously come from word back to back to almost the forest. Yeah, and in terms of plastic, we've got a we've fully we trace it back to the producer of the plastic and so for the customer they can find that anyway, well, they They can if they choose to ask okay, but we don't we don't publish that information. Yeah on website. We what we do do we have a we have a map of our vendors our product vendors. Yeah, so you can see where all your products coming from. Yeah, and then after behind the scenes, we've got all that you've done all that due diligence on the packaging as well. I think it's well worth doing because I you know, I I did a workshop with Lululemon. I knew lemon, you know, and they would get their invited me in and I went in there personal shopper eiders young this. Eddie take me round. She just I think these will be great for your think. These would be great for you. And then they go make a cup of tea and then out. I went anyway posted about it because it was a nice experience and I'm doing a workshop with them and I've got some clothes out of it and then someone posted in immediately. Oh immediately about sustainability and Lululemon and I wasn't right Curtis have a look. So when you go on they again, they go all the way through it. So what we're trying to be as transparent as possible. Here's we did a full carbon. Port in which every year and it's all this all there if you look you can find it and I thought that was brilliant because it was actually an opportunity to say well again, you can't expect a company to change overnight. It's a massive organization. But these are the things they're doing in this is the direction they're heading in you know, and we can see that we report the reporting of what we do is really important to us. Yeah, we're not so we're not perfect but we're working hard to improve that, you know the transparency. So yeah, we've got that got information. Yeah, man, anyone wishes to find it is to have it sounds like doing amazing what this stuff there are no stuffed. We've discussed already on those blows me away because it's no two days are the same when you work in packaging. Yeah touching every part of the business. Everybody needs packaging everybody. Everybody somewhere needs someone how to get something from A to B. Yeah be to say, you know yours and your the people that you know facilitate that so it's a it's a fun industry and it's even more interesting. Moment with everything that's going on. So I say bring it on anyone has got issues with plastic bring it on. We're happy to help. Okay. What do you what do you see the progression over the next let's say five years whilst over then. It was coming over the next five years from a packaging technologist ice prediction from a from a from a meta level. I think reusable packaging is going to be more and more prevalent in our world. I mean one thing I obviously we have a big fashion business and the next thing I think from a fashion point of view is is rental clothes. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Jasmine was talking about rights with rental close. You're going to have you're going to have usable bags. You're going to have to have products going back to forwards constantly. You can't have single-use plastic on those products. If you become a rental business, you've got to have a reusable system and I think people go are deliver happen in the UK. It's happening in the you in the state's leather happen here, but you will it will be massive and that's something like that will drive reusable econ packaging or reusable web retail packaging and I think you'll see an already seen that in there. Food space as well. Yeah, she seemed weak usable form a sort of being played with. Yep. I use a company called Splash a lot detergents. Yeah, they send it to the post to look it fits through the letterbox. You buy one bottle you'd walk you got that for life. And all you do is drop in the reuse the the concentrate into the bottle if I degrades in the in the Hope in the water really got your kitchen spray in your toilet toilet cleaner, whatever you've only ever used one bottle. I want some Brannigan's blush Splash. Okay, I should really be right You Gotta Kill Ya, but there is a great. This is a great the pioneering in when I only reusable solution the bottle is reusable, but the actual product of sending you is so much more sustainable because it's coming to the post. It's very small and light and all you're doing is adding water to it or mortal and you've got your product right there really still things like this happening all over the place in little pockets. Yeah, so I think the big the big thing for us so message trying to find Opportunities. Teas for recently usable packaging because in that hierarchy of what we saw the hierarchy of need. I think the first one is refuse. Yeah, like today I refuse that water bottle. Yeah that lady kindly gave me a favor of this. Yeah. So we've got to be more vocal. So we will you when you get when you get mile through the pace you don't want you should you should say I don't want that. I want that waste paper. I didn't ask for it. So we should refuse and then we should reduce and I've hopefully demonstrate we are doing enough to reduce. The can yeah, the next one is reuse. Yeah, it's trying to use as much as we can. And then the last one on the last one on the lot on the ladder is reuse. Sorry recycle recycle. Yeah, that's it's not bad. But it's the least it's one you should choose last. Yeah, you should be doing is over 3 some people actually say the fitness a fifth one and that's rot. Yeah, so if you can't recycle it, then it can rot in the ground safely. So that's moving towards compost dust discussion of compostable. And so if you like the hierarchy r55 Hours. Yeah, right. I met a lady and read her book. I got a little beige beer Johnson. Yeah, you might you might know her there. She's a French lady lives in California and she lives completely zero waste distance note and she Jennifer she puts in a kiln the jar that big the waist. She generates every year. It's incredible. Does she have a family she has a family that's incredible things. I wrote I look at it and you know, We're doing our best right we're doing what we can and but there's still from a family perspective. It's like way like it's it's tough, you know, we even did no nappies with you know, we smashed it. But even then there's still by the end of it. You're like look, how much is in I've been I'll take you into a Instagram post later because she's amazing and okay. Well if information for us all really an MMS is a business of said we will try and be a zero waste. This by 2025 that's a brilliant statement. Right that's massive to be able we're already zero waste to landfill. So that's an anything to landfill as we stand. So M&S is zero waste Elena wait, there are a fan film now. Wow, but in 2025 our ambition is to be zero waste business in its entirety that is that is a massive ask when you think of all the stores and all of the people that we have and not packaging is a tiny part of that but that's brilliant. That's where we're at where we're heading, hopefully and that's how I started. A good place to call it a day that that's amazing. I love that keep posting. Zero-waste Eminence zero waste, that should be out there. That should be a huge statement on their right man. Thank you very much really boom. So I hope you enjoyed the sustainability chat as much as I did Rogers a legend, isn't he find out more about Roger? Check out the show notes. And if you like the conversation and please show some love by spreading the message wide and far. If you're new to the podcast, then please go back and listen to the previous episodes. And it also really helps promote the Pod gasps. If you can hit the right button and subscribe. If you haven't any way being inspired by my Barefoot sustainability running challenges, and please make a donation to one or more of the sustainability and environmental organizations that I am raising for. You will find the just giving pages in the show notes. It's huge. Thanks to mr. James Joyce for all your work and helping get these conversation out. You are appreciated and remember peeps. We can't all live in nature, but it doesn't mean we can't live naturally.
So peeps let me introduce to the the man that is Roger Wright (LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roger-wright-7bb40126) Roger Wright is a packaging technologist with over 20 years’ experience designing out waste and designing in, solutions that work. Roger’s inspired by a future where the ‘activity’ of packaging is understood more holistically and can evolve within the context of an effective circular economy. He also believes that when packaging is integral to building a successful brand, costing only a tenth of the goods it protects and promotes but with a net positive impact on the world, we should all “Love the Last 10%!”. Roger and I spent a fair bit of time together and I feel I learnt so much from the conversation. And as if the conversation wasn’t enough he also joined me for the final 10 mile run of the day and an ice bath workshop with the Artur Pailins and Martin Petrus from the Nice collective. Anyway enough waffle - I hope you enjoy the sustainability chat. 