Hey everyone. I'm Chelsea Fagan. And this is the financial confessions. The financial confessions is the brand new weekly show from the financial diet where every week we talked to the most interesting people about how they do money. Hey guys, I'm Chelsea Fagan and welcome back to the financial confessions today. I am extremely excited because we have a truly amazing guess to we are all fans up here at TF D. It was a bit of a moment when she came into the office today. She is a New York Times bestselling author a podcast host and an all-around wise person when it comes to All Things happiness personality and the self you may be most familiar with her for Tendencies, which she identified in her New York Times best-selling book with the name. The drum roll please the for Tendencies. I'm talking of course about Gretchen Rubin and we're going to get into an incredibly fascinating conversation including talking about the four Tendencies which one you might be and how to use it to your advantage when it comes to money. But before we talk to Gretchen, I just want to give a quick hello to our amazing Partners at the financial confessions our sponsor into it into it makes an entire Suite of amazing Financial tools that basically act as like a personal CFO in your back pocket you may I have used TurboTax mint QuickBooks or any of their amazing products to help make your financial life easier better smoother and more efficient and to be essentially an extra brain that you can keep around you to manage money. I have personally been using Intuit products for years. I use QuickBooks every single day at TF D TurboTax. I've used many times to file my taxes and mint was actually the first tool I ever got to get better with money and you can read more about that in the TFT book so I could not encourage you more to check out into it. All they have to offer we'll talk a little bit more about some of the products they offer later in the show. But if you cannot wait to get started on your money Journey check out the link in our description or our show notes and learn more about into it right now. Hi Gretchen. Hello. Hi, welcome to tfd. I'm so happy to be talking to you today. I am so happy to be talking to you as well. How was your day today? It's been great. So far, you're in New York, but you're over on the Upper East Side, right? I am in that the traffic was fine. That's always the big question is crossing. The park is like it. It's going to be harder. It's going to be easy and it was easy. So I Monday I am a big fan of your apartment. I have looked at many many photos of it including as early as this morning just like scrolling through and prep. I'd love to hear a little bit about how you put it together. It's so beautiful. Oh, thank you. Well, one of the things my husband grew up in New York City. And so one of the things he definitely did not want was kind of like the standard boxy New York City apartment. So Apartments very quirky. It has like there's a secret room. Is like a secret thing under the stairs, then we turn around and bookshelves. Yep. We well I almost did that but there is a like a fake bookshelf, which if you pop it open his shelves inside. My daughter has a thing like Harry Potter the room under the stairs where she's got a desk and so and there's a lot of like hidden jokes. Like there's a we had a fireplace faux painted and it has all her initials in it, but it looks like kind of marble veins, but if you really look at it, you can see all of our initials. So there's a lot of I've kind of inside jokes to our family to make it feel Whimsical. I love wimzie. Do you like living living on the Upper East Side? I do. I love it. I do love it. You mean because it's kind of boring. Well, no, I mean I live in a boring neighborhood and I love that but I neighborhood you live in Morningside Heights. Okay, so kind of similar in terms of like, you know, a lot of big old buildings and you know, not a ton of new stuff going on, but I feel like the Upper East Side for a lot of New Yorkers is almost like a bit of a mystery. I've read a book. I don't know if you've ever read it or heard of it called primates. Park Avenue. Oh, yeah obsessed with it. I'm wondering how accurate you think Outsiders perception of the Upper East Side is to the actual experience. Well, you know that's hard to know because when it is your experience, I think it's hard to know how other people see it because to me it's just everyday like it's like my sister's a TV writer and I'm like you realize how glamorous it sounds and she's like it is the opposite of glamorous. I'm like and yet to us. It sounds so glamorous and and I think that as I sort of don't have to me, it's just like my ordinary day. I think it's hard to kind of know what it's like I didn't read Prime it's of Park Avenue because I was like, I don't think that I think it's accurate it'll just annoy me but um, you know, it's just it's the it's the it's everyday life. You know, it's going to the dry cleaners. How long have you been in New York almost 20 years and you were in Kansas City before I grew up in Kansas City. I lived in DC and New Haven in between but yeah, I'm from Kansas City. What is like an in terms of your experience in New York? Are there ways that living in a city like this because I also I lived in DC as well, and I've lived in other cities and I feel like especially when it comes to your perception of success or your aspirations. There's so much about living in New York that I feel almost like intrinsically motivates you in a way that you never were in other cities and I'm curious how much you think living in New York has been part of your experience of I mean, I hate to say it but being obviously so successful. Well the thing that I love about New York versus a place like Washington DC or LA or San Francisco is that those are very company towns and it's like there's Is one game in town There's right entertainment. There's you know the internet there's government and what I love about New York is like there are people that all they do is think about ballet all day long and all the ballet people. It's like they're all here to they're living their lives and said there's many many company towns in one place. So I think that's exciting and keeps it feel makes it feel much more vibrant than places that are dominated by one industry where everybody's just basically playing a role in a single Giants aim, Here people are trying to do all different kinds of things and it certainly is exciting to be in a place where you think well if I want to meet an agent, they'll be a great agent here. Yeah, if I want to have a video course I could do a great video course here, like everything's here. Everything's within reach. You can find everything here because it's such a it's such a you know, gravitational pulls his so many people doing so many different things. So I do think that's tremendously exciting. I feel like off often when I think about what is has become possible for people that I know in New York and the versions of themselves that they become I wonder like how like what I would have been another city or what? Yeah, it would have been and how much their personality is a result of being in this particular City or any City really do you ever wonder who you might have been if you had stayed in any of those other places the 100% so funny that you said that because I actually think about that all the time. I'm like if I were like a dial if I were 10 Percent more this what would I be? No one I often think like what would what would my life be like if I were in Kansas City because I love Kansas City I go back through all the time. It's a wonderful place to live, Missouri or Kansas. And those are all good. You know, you're Kansas City. That's a very important question to those Kansas City and so my ass, so, you know, I think that's a really interesting question. Are you think like, what would I be if I'd gone to a different College where it's like I probably would have had a great experience. But many of my friends would have been different. My trajectory would have been different. Current my decisions would have been different that's kind of unknowable. You know, I sort of think that my compulsion to write is so great that at some point it would have found me. But where it would have taken me might have been quite different. Do you think about money a lot? I don't know. You know money is one of these things that it's so pervasive. It's kind of hard to know if you do think about it a lot or not. I think a lot about it in terms of my research. Hmm how so well, I think in you know because I write about happiness and habits in human nature. And within that huge area I think money is one of the most emotionally charged and complex and difficult for people to Grapple with as I'm sure you know, it's highly emotional. Yeah, it's something where people are drawn to it and repelled by it. They want it and they are afraid of it and they can't look at it and they can't look away and it stands for so many things money is security it's an A+ of the top of your report card. It's giving its its possibility. It's opportunity. It can turn into there's a great Gertrude Stein quotation where she says something like money is money than the end people always decide if money is money and they always decide that money is money and I'm like, what does it mean that money is money but money definitely is money. Wow, whatever that mean for us. Yeah. What do you think? It means to you on a day-to-day basis? You know, I think some people are kind of upsides and people are more looking at the downside. And for me money is very important for security. Like I like to not have to think about it. Like I love every time I pay to pay bills. I'm always thinking I'm so happy. I can just pay this bill. So happy I can play this credit card bill right up right up front. So I love the feeling of security that get that it gives me. I'm not very adventurous. So the idea like, oh I could go to Tokyo, you know, like I don't think about that as much work as I think for some people money. Really represents opportunity and possibility much more. Hmm But I also am doing exactly what I want to do. And I think for a lot of people money represents the freedom to do what you want with your life and fortunately I get paid to do exactly what I would be doing for free and so I don't have to think about money in that way which is, you know, something that I never take for granted and I mean, it's the biggest privilege definitely there is financially but it's interesting because I feel like what the Upper East Side might be too General New Yorkers. I feel like New York. To most of the rest of the country and the sense that it is so expensive or its money is so prevalent that you almost become numb to the level to which money is a factor in everyday life and I'm curious if looking around like even just walking outside your apartment you ever feel because I certainly feel especially if I go to like Soho or something sometimes just like punched in the face by the amount of just money and luxury and access and things that are all around us Kanye. I get that way when I walk up and down Madison. Avenue sometimes yeah, there's a great who said it is like Socrates or somebody had something like he was like in the marketplace and he said how happy I am about all the things. I don't want or something like that. I feel that Li you like succession. I don't know if you watch succession. It's like yeah, right. Okay. Well what you see, I mean what I think it illustrates something that people are very aware of and yet always have to be reminded of which is that money doesn't buy happiness. Right doesn't buy happiness. You can be on the fanciest yacht in the world and You're fighting with your family like you don't care about how much free orange juice you can get on the other hand. I think people often are like well money doesn't buy happiness. And then they gloss over the idea that money can buy many things that do contribute to happiness Gary and security or Healthcare or you know, if your kid wants ballet lessons or you want to get a dog like all these thing. I remember somebody telling me money doesn't matter to me at all. I have a horse. I spent all my money on my horse and money. I don't care about money. I'm like, okay, but here's the thing. A thing you spent your money to buy a horse and she's like, right that's why money doesn't matter to me and I'm like Money Matters tremendous horse is money the horses money the words as many know you made a very happy choice and you bought a horse and just like dogs. It's like dogs are expensive. But many people would say it's like what makes me nothing makes me happier than my dog and so and but it's are you choosing wisely? Because some things are more likely to contribute to happiness than other things. So buying a bicycle if you go biking. The time is going to contribute your happiness. If you buy a bike and leave it in the garage all the time, that's not going to add to your happiness because it's just a foolish Choice. It's like a fantasy supper like knives like a friend of mine but like super fancy set of knives. She cooks all the time. So for her, it's like a joy beautiful toys tools make work a joy, but for somebody who just has them to sit on the counter. It's like create the impression that he cooks right that's like an ad your happiness. That's just like an empty show or like, you know you go gambling. It's like maybe it's super fun and it's like, you know, you're going with your Friends from college and it's a whole experience and like you lose a thousand bucks and it's fine or maybe maybe have a real gambling problem. And gambling is the worst possible thing you could do. So a lot of it is are you making wise choices? What are you spending your money on money is just it's just something that can be used. It can be used wisely or unwisely, I often feel like because I'm sure we're all pretty familiar. Especially our audience with the studies around at what point there. Okay diminishing returns. I don't believe that you don't I can I Take that on bus. That's okay. Yes. So there is research that suggests that after $75,000. It's writer. That's just not true. I'm just saying you're like no I did not run a spirit and experiment myself at Stanford on a bunch of undergraduates. I'm just here to say that's obviously not true. We know that's not true. We can sit here right now just talking amongst ourselves and we know that's not true because $75,000 in North Platte, Nebraska where my parents grew up is a totally different life right from $75,000 in Manhattan. And $75,000 if you've got six kids and one special needs is very different. If you live in a studio apartment with your pet turtle and $75,000 is very different. If you love to travel and $75,000 is very different. If you mean if you have Celiac, I mean there's a million reasons why $75,000 represents one thing to one person and it's completely different from another person because people circumstances are so different. I mean it just like the idea that you could pick that's like saying The best height for a person to be is 5 foot 5 and you're like who says compared to what where do I want from life if I want to be a jockey on a horse? What if I want to be a basketball star when I'm going to what if I'm gonna I mean it just it's a nonsensical number. Now, you could say that there's some kind of average but it's like what are the average that they don't present? This is like the this is the average they say after $75,000. It's diminishing returns. And that's just not true. Well, I think I mean so I obviously live in New York as well. And so very much in my own life $75,000 is not the number right, but I do believe that at a certain point for whatever that definition maybe to you and maybe we could say, you know comfortably middle class to upper middle class in your ZIP code or whatever. It may be. I feel like there is a point at least anecdotally where more money is not necessarily going to have a goes pretty high. I don't think the research actually goes that high because what happens is that money starts to buy convenience right and time, right? Convenience and time really contribute to okay. So let's say you travel all the time for work sure and now you have money to fly private. How much happier is that going to make you it's going to make you quite a bit happier. That's a lot of money Audrey. There's a lot of money. There's a lot of money, but would it make you happier would if somebody was was looking at you one to 10 scale day after day after day, you probably get a boost but you might say well that's totally illegitimate or that's a fart. That's a far-fetched number, but the Idea that people aren't experiencing gains. I'm just not convinced that is it diminishing a hundred percent. Like is that going to flatten out? Absolutely because at the bottom every little increment matters tremendously, I mean if you go it mean because that's the thing about money. It's like Health when you have enough whatever like you say enough would be you start taking it for granted having your much more aware of what you lack than what you have. So if you don't have your You're you're obsessed with getting your health. If you don't have enough money to pay the bills to be to get the the basics of life. Then that's overwhelmingly important. And as you have more and more and more that you have it becomes it becomes less and less of a gain. Would you what point do you stop saying and then people make bad decisions like having more money means people can make more spectacularly bad decision. Mmm, which they sometimes do what what's fast but people who are poor make spectacularly bad decisions. As well very don't know we don't tie those but like when we talk about despair when people you know, it's like okay. Well, is that a you know, that's and that could be a money could be conceived of as a money related issue as well. What I do find interesting though is you mentioned that a lot of money buying among other things time, which is true. Yeah, but convenience and convenience but in America, for example, like our highest earners tend to work the most power is in their class donating but there They're not buying this enough time. But that is absolutely fascinating. This is very unusual in the history of the world. I agree that the people who have the most money are working so hard, right and that is so it's not that they're lazy right? It's not that they're decadent. I think it's that work is fun. And when you're working at a very high level, it's really fun CI. It's really fun. It's almost compulsively fun. It's there's an enormous. There's all the the, you know, you're getting that intermittent reinforcement of getting things done. And and and as you I mean for in many jobs, the more senior you are the more interesting your job is I would say that's probably true for a lot of people I do think that there are two factors that are incredibly important for most people one is lifestyle inflation. And that is sort of like the hamster wheel that most people even at a middle-class salary can't get off. But also I would say secondly and this is particularly true for you know, top Executives top earners. The people who are in these rooms is an extremely Pool of peers against which to compare yourself. So you combine this idea of Lifestyle inflation with first class used to be enough. Now it's you know, executive first class the like private Suite now, it's a private plane and all of the rest of that that used to be great feels unsatisfactory. And then you combine that with you live in a building where everyone else in your buildings A Millionaire, but see I don't think the people are working to make more money necessarily. I think they're working for the satisfaction that comes from the satisfactions of work and part of the satisfactions of work is Money money is money. People want more money if they can have more money, but there's so many other things like when people say like, oh, these people are clearly greedy because they have more money than they could ever spend and yet they continue to work Round the Clock it's not because it's they want other things, you know about his status. Oh 100% status enormously important enormously important, but many people have high status that don't make a lot of money but in a lot of places the way that you indicate that you have a lot of status is the money is the grade. It's the grade. It's the Goldstar. It's the measuring stick and could we all Off that measuring stick and have like an imaginary met, you know measuring stick words, like literally a star chart that you know, Warren Buffett disturbance at the end of the year. Probably, you know, that would probably keep people driving just as much is there a point at which a person could earn too much money? Oh, well, that's a very interesting question. Right? So we've clearly reached it I would agree but I think the question becomes at what point is it Our obligation as a community and as a society to say, hey once we get to the point where Jeff Bezos Zoe's can cheat on his wife and lose the value of the you know, the entire GDP of the country of Bulgaria because he made that personal error and there's that much wealth in the hands of what is at the end of the day of you know, a human being with flaws and needs and insecurities and at the end of the day also a rather selfish interest compared to what an entire community of people would do it that same money. Do we want that level of power in an individual's hands? And if not, like where do we draw that line? And and how do we draw that line? And I'm curious because Alex is social think that's a social question in a political question. Not an inquest of individual happiness, but I think that it also starts in our perception right because I think that we still very much valorize these people we still very much look at the metric of Success Through a lens of money as maybe not the most valid one, but still I mean, I love watching Shark Tank as much as anyone else does and that is I think speaks so highly to our cultural understanding of money as if not the most important Arbiter of success at the very least the most true one or the most clear one. I don't know. I was I'm not sure that I agree that because I think there are many people who are very very highly respected who are very who people are very interested in who don't early ton of money. Like I don't know why I keep talking that the ballet cause like I never go to the ballet, but anyway, but like someone who is, you know ballet star, I think everyone would be Interested in that person or like I'm a writer there's many rightly. You don't make that much money writing. Most people don't make that much right? There's other people where you know, people would be like, oh my gosh, Robert Caro, he's here. Let's like they would be they would be very very excited about that and they would be very interested in him and they would hold him to the very highest respect but not because he earns the most money and I'm sure as a writer he does make a lot of money. I'm sure because books are says are so respected and successful but not compared to like a hedge fund guy, right? But it doesn't really matter because we're not that because that's not if you work in finance, then that's the big metric but then there are many many other metrics where people are very interested in just your accomplishments in another way. Well, I know most people try to translate their accomplishments into money because that's how they make their money. That's how they that's said, they support themselves, but but I but I don't think it's the only I think it's almost it's it's it's an accompaniment, but it's not necessarily the Any driver that's important or like a very great doctor, right? If somebody was like you are the preeminent cancer researcher and the United States people have enormous respect for that person, right and and be extremely interested in the basically probably anything that had to say on any subject because it'd be like, wow this person like what an accomplishment that must be what an important role to play in his Nobel Prize winner friend of mines husband. Just won the Nobel Prize how crazy is that? Congrats to the right? I mean, it's right. Easy, right? Yeah, he won the darn Nobel Prize. That's a very very very big deal. We hear every day all day from people who have a very difficult time decoupling their identity from how much money they make that's very true. Yes. I don't want to minimize that that's an out. That's a very very very astute Point. Well, and I think also it's you know, Jeff Bezos is obviously such an extreme example, and I think you know, it's easy most extreme example, literally that was number two. I was going to say after that he's doing with his Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he got knocked out but I do think that doing okay the way that we look at people like this or the way that will treat people who have reached such high levels of financial like success has such a direct link to people making that own that connection in their own lives. I'm not sure that's true because because what what the research suggests to a very great degree is that we compare ourselves to the people who are closest to us. So the average person walking around New York is not thinking like, oh my God. Gosh, what about the person who lives at 7:20 Park? They're not even aware of that person. That person is like can imagine. It's there like a shark tank person. There are there are there are figure on succession. They're not real. What they're looking at is the people in their neighborhood for instance research shows that if you are you're much happier being one of the wealthiest people in your neighborhood, then one of the least wealthy people in your neighborhood how much ever however affluent your what your neighborhood is it has to do with your peer group and people they compare themselves to their peers their age peers like My doing in comparison to the people. I went to high school with and people with college with and then how am I doing to the people who are around me? So I think that people are much more influenced by kind of a couple rungs up and down then they are by things like images on TV, like what about the people on their Instagram feed? You know, that's that's an interesting question, but I think it's funny to me because to me it just feels like watching Dynasty or something like that really feels like I don't feel but I'm not that focused on. Instagram and so and I'm also kind of an under buyer type of person like, I don't know I'm not particularly and then some people there is an aspect of Personality called social comparison. So people just are very much more apt to have social come like they're the kind of are inclined towards social comparison and feel bad when they feel like they don't compare well and obviously if you are a person who scores high and social comparison basically social media is your nightmare because it's just a vehicle for social comparison. Whereas like, I don't think I score very high in Social comparison. I feel like nobody ever really notices me and I don't really ever and I'm so distracted. I never noticed anybody else. So I feel like that that doesn't Clue Into Me not even really because of values but I feel like discuss my makeup. It doesn't sort of strike a chord with me in a way that causes me anxiety, but clearly it does I think you're pointed to something that many people have have said that that you can always turn off Instagram. I'm like, hey, man, stop talking and start sure these people like they're made I think a lot of people have a very very difficult. I think it's for a lot of people a borderline compulsion or addiction. Well, it's technology is a great servant and a bad master and it's like if you feel bad every time you look at someone's Instagram feed then delete you don't have to get off of Instagram all together you can take off so you don't have to you can unfollow one person. It's like I think we have to recognize that we are not passive recipients of messages. I had to do that. I had to unfollow everyone. I didn't know in real life. Oh made me feel bad. I still occasionally it leaks in Guys leak it off. It doesn't leak in it doesn't leak and that's true. I could probably put a real number on and how it helps like my depression, right? Yeah. Yeah, it does but I think I think what is fundamentally so different about social media and I think obviously if you're able to opt out a bit on a personal level like I would love to know your secrets, but because I think well if I'm able to I mean one is able to do it one may not totally should do it but a person can do it or find it difficult to do it, but I think for the what's interesting to me is how much something like an Instagram feed has opened up this window in people's lives that you're no longer quite just looking at your next door neighbor, but you're also not looking at someone who is explicitly a celebrity or HIV star Jeff basically someone who's so far who feels almost imaginary at that point, right and and it and it's so it feels like that that it feels like someone you could know it work in a lot of ways, whereas the you know, in many cases like for example the vast majority of young women because our This is like almost at it's like 92% women they follow us, but they also follow many influencers bloggers writers things like that. And these people to them feel on many levels like someone that you know, but are still living this vastly vastly different life. And as we mentioned it earlier whether it's a horse or a wardrobe all of these things that are presenting to you at some level our money. Yeah well and it's interesting because although we all intellectually not Know that we're getting kind of a curated snapshot that doesn't represent the truth. It's very hard to remember that like you forget how much you're not seeing even though intellectually, you know, I'm not seeing 99.9% of this person's life and all kinds of stuff should be could be going on that. I don't know about its it is hard to remember that when you're looking absolutely picture is worth a thousand words and it is hard to remember like, you know, I think if you know people in real life and you see this, you know, how much is not being pictured. Oh totally. Yeah, you can just like crap out the same even Laura Ingalls Wilder who I Revere said I told the truth but not the whole truth. So if you've been thinking about deleting some of those apps that are terrible for you and maybe putting a better one on your phone. And if you have your own business or you're managing a side hustle or have different streams of income one of the best tools you can give yourself is As I mentioned, I literally use QuickBooks basically every day because without it I would be wholly incapable of managing tsd's finances QuickBooks gives you an Easy-to-Read dashboard that has all of the ins and outs of your company's Financial Health right in front of you so you can go through them exactly as you need to they'll help you do everything from get your invoices paid on time to catalog all of your expenses so that when tax time comes it's not the biggest nightmare of your life, which it very much has been for me pretty quick books to making sure you're totally on top of everything coming in. And going out of your business and if you think you need to own an incredibly impressive company, like I do in order to use QuickBooks just a reminder that it's also extremely helpful for people who are for example freelance. If you're freelancing even just for your side job, you are essentially a company of one. So get the best possible tool for managing your company's finances with QuickBooks will link you to more info in the description in the show notes so you can get started so I'm obviously so I love personally when I talk to people and I think that we have a very different approach. H2 not just kind of the the management of your own identity your own sort of control over to what extent you feel may be defined or not defined by other people and something that I've always thought looking at your work is that you seem very in control of how you perceive yourself or how you define yourself. Hmm. I personally still very feel very out of control of that to a large extent in what sense what a fascinating Formation. Well, well, for example, I had mentioned earlier that a lot of our audience has a very difficult time separating their personal identity from the amount of money that they made their or have that doesn't happen to be mine. But I definitely feel that in other ways. Like for example, my professional sense of identity or satisfaction is extremely dependent on other people even people that I don't work with like my own family members like to what extent they think I'm you know, my job is real right start working on the internet and Via podcast. Yeah, but totally but I feel like I I'm curious how you have men. Maybe it's just a perception that you don't feel it's accurate but how you've managed in your own life to make sure that you're sort of the locus of not only your self-worth and identity. But also these outside factors like to your point a writer doesn't make probably as much money as a lot of people think they do but whether or not you're making, you know a ton of money or you're on the bestseller list, as you said you would be a writer regardless. And I'm curious what our strategies that you've found to to Really Center those feelings in yourself and those senses of identity. Well, I think one thing it is really helpful to kind of know what you want. And it sounds like what could be easier than to know what you want. You just hang out with yourself all day long. What do you want? But it's actually I think very very difficult because a lot of times we're swayed by what we think we should want or what other people want us to want or what we wish we would want, you know. And I know I started out as a lawyer basically for all the wrong reasons, you know, it's a good education and I'm good at research and writing. My dad's are really happy lawyer. I can always change my mind later. It's a great preparation. So I went and I had a great experience in law, you know ended up clerking for justice Sandra Day O'Connor look so I don't regret any of it. It was all great, but I went there for a very default. I just went because I couldn't think of it. I just didn't know what else to do with myself. It was I did not mindfully go didn't choose to go but then went with writing it was like I was seized with Desire to write a book a particular book which ended up being my first book and so I just felt so certain because I knew this was what I wanted and I think you know, some people really do have that like even I mean doctors feel this way. I'm not a physical therapist you felt this way. I was reading the I went to like one of these like fancy artsy circuses like my family for some reason we get artsy circuses and you read the like the playbill and it's clear that people feel Impelled to like become jugglers that sounds funny, but it's really true people feel like this enormous there. Like I ran I literally ran away to join the circus at age 15 because I couldn't help myself. I just felt so drawn to the circus. And so I feel like maybe that made my sense of identity easier because because that was just such like an overwhelming thing and then I was able to do that. I think sometimes people feel this compulsion, but then for whatever reason they're not able to follow it. Do you feel that having had that? Career as a lawyer which was obviously not a fit after a Time made it easier to feel so certain in your identity as a writer with or without, you know, maybe the more traditional success. I think what it gave me was it gave me a sense of confidence in myself, right? And and I read a book called the four Tendencies themselves about this personality behind ya whether people are upholders questioners obligors or Rebels and we'll get into all that but one of the things I'm in a polder in this framework and one of the things that upholders, it's a really good. At meeting our expectations and they're really good at meeting her expectations and I'm a person who can really keep promises to myself. I can rely on myself. I can rely on myself more than I can rely on anybody else in my life. And what I realized is that most people don't feel that way. They don't a hundred percent feel like they can rely on themselves and I feel like law was really really hard. I did a lot of things that were really really hard to do and I did them and because I was like I'm going to do it and I did it and so I was like, I am going to go to the book. Store and buy a book called like how to write and sell your nonfiction proposal and I will just follow the directions because I don't know what else to do. And so I did oh my God, that's what I like. I am. So what I knew was I didn't know if I could get an agent. I didn't know if I could sell a book. I didn't know if anybody would pay me to write a book. All I knew is I want to write this book. I'll do it for free because I want to do it so badly and I know that I can write a book and follow the instructions and see what happens and hope for the best and that's what I did. What do you what would you say to To advise people who like many people feel incredibly defined by their financial status or their compensation or even whom or in my case feel very defined by external validations of you know, professionalism or success or what have you like what outside of that sense of preparedness. If for example, they're not an upholder and they can't trust themselves like get the like how to get a book deal and get it but see if they know their Tendencies then I can tell them how to do that. Well, how would a rebel do it? How would well so red It's interesting. We can I take a minute and just talk about the words like this to find them. Okay? Yeah, so I will get idea guys. I want to know what you are. I think I know what you are. Oh, please God given your career. I was like, I would think she would be a rebel because it's such a rebel career path, right? Okay, but I had gotten two different answers I think and I remember she had corrected me my partner who's in the room to be like no. No, this is the answer. Yeah, a lot of them. Have you asked her for help to other people like? Oh no. Oh, yeah. That's that's clear very clear. You can take the it's like a free quick quiz to me. Many people have taken the quiz at quizzed on Gretchen Rubin.com. You can take the quiz very short very easy, but most people know what they are right away. So if I just described it, so it has to do with how you respond to expectations Adder expectations and interacts affectations. So Adder expectations are things like a work deadlines in our expectations are like, I want to keep a New Year's resolution for myself. So upholders as I said readily need outer and inner expectation. So they meet the work deadlines. They keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. So it's very easy for an upholstered to do something like well, I'm going to work my full-time job and on the side. I'm going to write it. Like that's okay. That's that comes easily. And as I said, our motto is disciplined as my freedom questioners question all expectations, they'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they resist anything arbitrary or inefficient or unjustified. They always want to know why once so they're making everything in inner expectation if it meets their energy expenditure expectation, they'll do it. No problem. But if it fails or interacts fact ation, they will push back so their motto is all comply if you convince me why hmm obligors I really need outer expectations, but the struggle to meet in our expectations. So like a person who says oh when I you know, when I exercise with a friend, I would never miss it. But when I'm trying to do it on my own I struggle because it's like Well, when the front is expecting you to show up you would never let them down. But when you're trying to go on your own it's hard. And so if obligors want to meet an inner expectation what they need is our accountability, right? You want to read more join a book group and so their their motto is You can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. Hmm and then Rebels rebels is this outer and inner expectations. Like they want to do what they want to do in their own way in their own time. They can do anything they want to do they can do anything they choose to do but if someone asks or tells them to do something they're very likely to resist and typically they don't like to tell themselves what to do like they don't sign up for 10 a.m. Spin class on Saturday because they're like, I just want to wake up on Saturday and see what I feel like doing. Maybe I'll do spin class. Maybe I'll do yoga. Who knows Maybe I'll go to the farmers market and so their motto is you can't make me and neither. Can I I do remember that by the way, this is like watching like Michael Jackson perform Thriller something. It's like it's here the for Tendencies from Russian herself is exciting never stop talking about so Rebels resist outer and inner expectation. So they want to do what they want to do in their own way in their own time. So for them, it's about identity. I'm a writer what does a writer do a writer writes like no one? Me what to do. I'm a writer or it's like I am a leader. I'm a leader. I've always been a leader since the time. I was their third grade. I'm a leader like I'm gonna walk into this place and you watch me I'm going to leave this place because I have the heart of a leader or whatever it is. It's like some Rebels want to make a lot of money and they'll like figure out how to do that or some Rebels are like I want every day to be different. So I'm going to get a job where I'm like I manage our chain of restaurants and everyday is different. I'm driving around and nobody knows where I am at any particular time like they do with their identity because that's They want that's what they choose strangely. A lot of rebels are also sent the sub group of rebels are attracted to areas of high regulation like the rub the military the clergy the police and large corporations with lots of rules. They kind of need to know the rules so that they can push against the rules. That's a certain kind of Rebel to do you feel that your tenancy as an upholder in some ways liberates, you know, for example hundred percent with money. See I think people look at Apple. There's and think that we because we do because we're constantly like to Crossing things off the to-do list and secondary calendar. So they think that we feel constrained and trapped and in fact, we feel incredibly free and the model of the folder is discipline as my freedom and we don't understand why other people don't don't perceive us as free because we feel very free now, but the but the interesting thing about your team is that when Rebels pair up in work or in Romance almost always they team up with obligors that is by far the and so if you have two people on your team who Rebels I would say probably a lot of the other ones are going to be obligors because you're going to need to have obligors to kind of work with those Rebels to Rebels together as a team could struggle. Yeah. I definitely think that that's true and I'm personally like I I think that it's difficult for a lot of people to really narrowly Define themselves as either a questioner or an obligor in the sense that I think that like a lot of people have a little bit of examples of each and their life in terms of like specific things that other people being present for or outside expectations like really helping and it's interesting because we talked on tfd a lot about accountability being an incredibly powerful tool for money not necessarily because it really fits with people's personality types, but because it's so infrequently talked about and because it's so tablet and so personal don't miss the surfacing of the issue and and not making people feel so isolated and whereas for most people you could have like a group chat going about Turley any topic including like sex and dating and things that are superficially more taboo, but you'll never talk with your friends about your salary. Well who wrote that it was a writer Neal. He wrote a book an article in the Atlantic about like basically being a middle class person who was totally failing at money and all the mistakes he made and it was explosive right because he was like explicitly talking about like I drain my retirement account to pay for my daughter's wedding and like we Like just talking about all these mistakes you made and it's like you never see that right somebody really talking about the decisions they made while totally and what they regret and I think you're right like just talking about it helps to sort of drain out some of the electricity the negative electricity around it. So 2 to the point of Lifestyle inflation. So I think you know again I think for a lot of people that constant that like Chinese water torture of constants, Small improvements in life and conveniences. Yes, make the idea of decoupling one's identity and happiness from money incredibly hard on a practical level. I will say your earlier point. I'm very fascinated that you push back. So strongly on the $75,000 number which I think is true on and obviously like very practical level like living in New York City. That's not a lot of money, but I also think that it's probably more than anything driven by that and it's not inherently a bad thing. To your point. It's not a new thing this lifestyle inflation. But that happiness continually Rising with the income or at least the net worth is probably heavily tied to that concept of Lifestyle inflation because you now redefine happiness on slightly better terms every day. Yes. Well and this so that's called the hedonic treadmill. So it's like, you know that because it's like if you've never had an air conditioning before you have air conditioning your like, this is the greatest invention of all time. Totally. Well now we take it for granted like we're not like what Walking around excited every day that we have air conditioning or like, you know, the elevator, you know, it's like I live on the fifth floor. Oh my gosh, if I didn't have an elevator, I would be very very sad. But you know, I don't I don't have a gratitude practice for my elevator though. I should but I think one of the things that a person would the way you can do this maybe and to your point that the that this lifestyle inflation can kind of get us on this treadmill of spending more and more without getting you know, because we just feel like we're standards are constantly Rising. That what people really want is an atmosphere of growth. They want to feel like things are moving in the right direction. They wanted feeling of progress. They want a feeling of growth but growth comes in many ways. And so like if you learn something that is a feeling of growth and so if you're like, you know what my I can't make my apartment any better, but I'm going to get better at Watercolor that would be very exciting and satisfying to you or you're like, you know, I am gonna I know this little teeny tiny. Offutt and they are just a hot mess when it comes to their finances. I'm just I'm going to count I'm gonna go in there. I'm gonna clean it up for them get them going that would give you a tremendous sense of growth teaching people to do things fixing learning. These are ways of having growth. And so I think if people feel stagnant when they feel that they need growth. I think they often go to money because money is easy money is like if I buy a new pair of black boots, I'm going to feel great if I get a new dining room table. It will like make my whole apartment feel better if I get a washing machine, I will be so great now. You know what? He had. It's great. If you have a dining room table, you can entertain more and maybe that'll make you happier or the washing machine will save you a ton of time and you'll be convenience and that could be great. But if you need me that feeling of growth money isn't the only way to get it you could think of like, how can I learn something? How can I teach something? How can I maybe you get a dog and you're like this dog is gonna bring this whole new element into my life. It's going to give me a tremendous sense of growth because there's gonna be so much change and new stuff and I'm like, I'm gonna get ahold I'm going to go to new, you know, I'm just going to go to new places. Is like right I never know that the dog park. I'm gonna dog park every day. You know, I mean, there's all kinds of ways to get growth. I think you're right. That money is the it's kind of the most straightforward way. You may just go out and buy it but there's other things to do. You mentioned earlier the address 720 Park. I'm curious if you seen the documentary 720 Park. No, so I highly recommend it both to any audience because it's one of the most Salient examples of lifestyle inflation. Just like a very sort of clear cut. It's heavily about how the most expensive address in, New York. 720 Park and it's just like a you know out of an iconic exhort of it and vote. I don't if probably now is not the most actually the most expensive dress probably not but hopefully I come on it's like the one that you use to totally and its all full of just like billionaires and and it's also part of the documentary is about how it's like under a mile from the poorest zip code in the country. So it's also about income inequality. That's New York City. Absolutely but the fascinating thing about the men primarily in 720 Park and also the women but it's primarily The Men Who are the Nurse and the building have essentially entered into this incredible microcosm where their sense of competition of success of having enough is so narrowly defined that for example, they will fight each other on terms. We cannot even imagine to move up one floor because it's considered prestigious to be on a higher floor. Someone will bring in 50, you know, fir trees flown in from you know hungry for Christmas and then the next year someone will bring in 65 and so they've essentially reduced their world down to the most unbelievably luxurious possible definitions and you realize in and sort of learning a little bit more about these people lot of people's lives that it's entirely decoupled from to your point anything that they would do something with or would make them happy on a practical level. It's entirely redefined by their position amongst each other, but I think it's just fascinating how you know, you can look at that and say like well that's such an extreme example, but what about when you move Was slightly better building where now suddenly everyone's decorating their front door for all the holidays and you never consider doing that before but now you're like I got to go to TJ Maxx and get a million glittery pumpkins, you know, yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah highly recommend right? It's one of these things where we are social creatures and we take our cues from the people around us. And so we are very influenced by what other people the people around us. What they do would you say that as a last question on this note that the best if there is a shorthand or litmus test the best litmus test to the worthiness the intrinsic worthiness of a purchase that may often be influenced by external factors is what you are actually going to practically do with that thing or how much you are going to use it or how much it's going to actually change or enhance your day-to-day life. Yeah. I think I think that's that's a good thinking about whether that's yes, right because it really depends because like you could buy An expensive laptop and if it's like you're like me where I'm like my laptop is like my comfort object and it's like I carry it with me all the time. It's like that's a great investment right then for somebody else. It's like why are you know, you're just this for you is just it's just conspicuous consumption. It's just you want to have the fancy thing. You don't really need it. Like you're not going to get a gain from that. You can just keep you see these are same old laptop or thinking about it's interesting though because there is there is something about purchase for some people. I don't think that there's enough talked about what happens at the moment of purchase. Oh, yeah. I've have a bad feeling of purchase. Oh really? I do. I always feel like I'm always like I would like to not purchase this. I always like an underwire it so there's under buyers and over buyers under buyers tend to like not like to purchase right? But it's still a moment of power for me. Because it's like I feel like am I going to regret it? Like I often have anticipatory Shoppers remorse and I have to force myself to buy something that I need. I mean, I'm not talking about buying like a mailing envelope, right? Like, you know a shirt there's a bit of a for Tendencies equivalent in the personal finance world in the name of yeah, the name of the man is escaping me believing Google it but there's like one of the personality types is avoidant. Yeah. One of them is started. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I'm Anna can't remember his yes. I felt Brian. That's why we have a producer. I've read that to you. Yeah, I know that category is I loved I Loved These distinctions because I'm saying it so because I think part of it is that people have different challenges because some people are like always over buying and they have to hold back. I don't have to force myself to purchase right because I'm like I need stuff and if I just wait, it's just going to get more complicated, you know, do you have it? Dr. Brad Kong? Yes, and one of them said one of them is like avoidant and that often has to do with just like, you know, the people who don't like to look at their bank account just like swipe the debit card and hope it works, but then there's So people and I don't remember his exact term for it a master of avoider hoarder money monk. Yeah. So it's this is money. This is the standard. Yeah. This is entirely about personal finance, but there is essentially a type where people romanticize and fetishize and almost have like a love feeling toward the act of purchasing and the act of spending, you know Spenders, obviously the name of the type but it's it goes so much further than just sort of compulsive spending hear something. A fascinating that somebody needs to think about at Great length, maybe Me Maybe maybe we'll all these because I was talking about I was talking about the question of like impulse buying. How do you get how do you control impulse buying if this is a challenge for you and a number of people wrote to me and said that what they do is they will fill their carts and they will have so much fun filling their carts and then they abandon their cart and they never had any intention to purchase but for them the fun was the choosing right and that was the fun for them which was I would choose this and I would like this and I would use and I would buy these shoes and that's the fun part for them. And so then also I think do stores realize that you know, they're very focused on unfulfilled orders. A lot of these people maybe don't ever had never intended to fulfill their order. They were just shopping for the fun of choosing then I'm like that's interesting to me because that's not even purchase. Right so you can say there's like choice and kind of the Identity or like the the the the kind of the the main evenness that comes from choosing then there's purchase then there's acquisition which is I have a bag and bring it home. There's display. Yeah, there's use there's experiment. There's like it's like it's not one thing. It's many many things and people are like activated a different point right? Like why did I mean this is why you mean you live and breathe this up white so emotionally complicated because people can be wigging out at all different places. Oh, yeah and for me at least because I've always battled with that my whole life, it's mostly just being able To imagine a different version of yourself and all that will go with it. And so for me like the number of times that like making a Pinterest board has saved me from making a terrible purchase. Yes, because it gives you the feeling of identity and kind of clap and you can end its half of the fun is just imagining and half of the fun is that's so exhausting. Oh my God, that's the part. I want to skip is the choosing. I don't like the choose. I literally go to open houses apartments for fun, like in my spare time just because I love just like imagining what I would I'd do in the apartment and it's why I mean luckily with an apartment. I can't move into a new one every three weeks. But I wish there was that foreclosed. Somebody said that to me that she would go to beautiful stores very expensive stores where she couldn't buy anything because then she said there was no question of purchase was clearly all too expensive. It was pride and joy of looking and choosing and she said the thing about a beautiful stories like you can actually touch the things right, you know for people are very tactile. It's not like a museum where it's like all behind a rope and you can only look it's like you can feel the fabric so you can pick up the candles. Whatever and she said for her it was just the but it had to be very expensive store because otherwise she might be tempted to purchase totally but she went to assert like you go to and you have fun with an apartment because there's no way you could buy exactly so, you know, you're not you don't have to fight that Temptation. That's also me and Jonathan Adler like whenever I scoot over to the Upper East Side, I'm like, oh I'm going to go in a John Jonathan Adler and touch all the beautiful lamps. I can't buy one of the stores close the one today if you want to want to know any more than Madison. It's oh my God devastate. The one in the 60s is still There but there are no no, it's the one on the left side. Now the bottom right side one close that is heartbreaking the Upper East Side Jonathan Adler Lee going there and then getting a cookie at Dean & DeLuca. Oh, yeah, my little imaginary day. I know exactly I probably walk down the street without my dog behind you. Well, it's closed. So this is when Gina DeLuca close to all right. Well, yeah, I mean that's depressing but I feel like that was a long time coming for the data Greenberg's go get a cookie Greenberg's they're still there. Hot tip from our hot. Is it in Upper East Side luckily cookie from Greenberg's so we do have I'm pulling them up. Where did they go lightning round lightning round as long as I can actually get them number one. What is the big Financial Secret of your industry? Hmm, I think for writers probably more for nonfiction writers. It's having an email list because this is a way that you can have direct connection with your readers and more and more as everything becomes more noisy and more. Fragmented and there's more and more things competing for people's attention having an email list is a way that you can really connect with your readers directly. And so more I think that's like that's a big thing to have two big asset to have it takes a long time. So, what did I tell you about something that it's and it's not something you can go out and buy but it costs money to maintain it and to use it make use of it. But I think it's really a great a great investment of time and energy you get the Gretchen Rubin emails. Oh, that's good that sign up for my newsletter. Yeah, yeah, that's him. / hashtag newsletter. Yes. I know. It's weird slash slash Tech news like it's not good. But there it is. What am I gonna do? I'm sure we gotta wet it in milk and manage it. It'll be in the show notes. Yeah. Yeah, just click the link below. What do you invest in versus what are you cheap about? I'm Chief about food. I don't really care about food. I love diner food that kind of thing. But I really do spend money on tools like like what like I like laptop my Stop my headphones when I like have this amazing it guy who comes all the time to make sure everything's backed up. I'm like a live in fear of things not being backed up. I'm not very technical. So, you know, he's like you need it. You should get at this account or that account and back everything up or do this. I'm like what what? Yes, I will pay for anything. That's like a tool got it good one comes in handy what has been your best investment and why my best investment is, you know, I don't Is the people that I work with like, you know, what I pay what I feel good about paying I don't nickel and dime when people are like what about this? What about that? I think it's like working with people who are never saying like it's more important to me to like eat the last dollar out of something round because working out of curiosity, you know, do I have a team I have like people that I collaborate with kind of got it, um, you know, it's kind of like I and I have so many different identities. And he's like, I've people that I work with for podcasting but they're not involved in the writing side. I do work with somebody with a lot of kind of social media type stuff like helps me with format the newsletter and Q things up in you know time shifting and you know reminds me like you're all you're doing a live event with your sister do an Instagram story. Don't forget I get very distracted my forget so, you know, she's helps you with just staying on task what has been your biggest money mistake and why oh, I know. Obviously my biggest money mistake is a big-money mistake that I bet many many many many people will say which is that I don't keep enough of like a budget and knowing like where's all my money coming from and what am I spending money on? Like, I just have a general feeling that there's enough money for me to like manage everything but I'm not like sitting down and thinking like, oh, I have a video course. What did I make this year from the video course and like what did the video course cost to make and like? What's the ROI? Oh I see. Sent this my old what I spent this much on my newsletter because you know, you've got to have you gotta I done convertkit and like what did it cost me? What does it cost me to have a newsletter? I should know that your I should and I don't know that that's my big money mistake as I don't I'm not in fact, I always have a one-run the happier podcast. We always have a one-word theme for the year and I almost made my theme metrics because I definitely metrics and I'm like, I don't want that to be my one weird thing with year because I don't want to work on my metrics. Does it make you anxious? It doesn't make me anxious but it's a rookie. Error, it's done. I should know Roi I should know where my what I'm spending on what I'm gaining. It's not enough. I didn't have enough people sort of involved one way or another. I'm not going I'm not going wildly off the rails, but I should have a better sense of like how things do is that the same for your personal budget or just your business. It's mostly my business. Okay, so like personal stuff. You're more on the ball. Yeah, that's good. At least there's that. Yeah. Well also with personal it's not as confusing with like things costing money, but also making money but then there's hidden costs and then you got to think about this and nothing but that even it's more like yeah, it just feels more straightforward. That's right. I'm buying this like cost that right. There's a lip. We're in business. I feel like a lot of it is like you've got to get into like what's worth it. And what's worth that it's time. It's the energy it's the money. It's other people's time their time if we're working on this we're not working on that opportunity costs, you know, I'm a writer so anything that takes my attention it's like oh, but I could be writing my next book, right? So I feel like there's like Some multi-factor thing which doesn't mean that I shouldn't be doing it right? It's just not so straightforward. And so that's so that I think but I think even just saying this to you right now, I'm like, ooh, maybe 2020 should be my year of metrics. I I support that obviously but I do think it's funny we get a lot of we talked to a lot of people who are pure creative types in our universe and a lot of times you see they will be people who have an extremely avoidant relationship to money particularly when it comes to S often for a lot of the same reasons and so there are sort of inevitably surrounded by you know vultures essentially like people who really take advantage of the fact that these people don't want to think about their finances and I recently heard a creative say that like when I was asking her about how she manages like, you know, all of her finances, she doesn't touch them. She has people that do all of that for her and I was like, ooh you at least have to get like a copy and make sure that you're going through it line by line because a lot of these people are essentially going to be paying out of the nose. For something they didn't know could have been free to them because the person wasn't adding like a consulting fee and they're adding, you know their surcharge and and so I always get very wary of people who have offshored that to someone completely outside of their own. Oh, that's a very good point. Well, I feel lucky because I'm an agent I'm very close to my agent in very close contact with my eat. And so I feel like in some and so far as their supervision like right she's highly supervised but on the other hand like I think one thing that's difficult for a lot of people is what do you price? What do you charge right and one of the great things about having a Agents is like they are charging the most they can and you're not you don't have to do that. I feel very bad for people who are still in the position or like in their industry. They have to price their own work. That's clearly that's a very very difficult thing for people to do and it's nice because agents like they what they are paid for is to negotiate and also to know kind of what is the market what will the market Bear right and to make sure that you get what the market will bear I fully support a metric Journey next year a magic journey. I like that. Directions metric Journey Financial diet story. What is your biggest current money and security probably related to that like metrics. Yeah. What the heck am I spending my money on and what am I making my money on I just throw spaghetti against the wall. That's the fun part for me. I get you but you're right. I gotta get some Metric ya know metrics man. That's right. Roi what has been the financial habits that it's helped you the most paying all my bills without paying interest Spain. Hell yeah. Hell yeah compound interest man is your best friend or your worst enemy mean it goes both ways. It really does. It really does. It really does and as a last question, when did you first feel successful and I'm putting air quotes around that for listeners. And what does that word mean to you was interesting that we were just so many agents because putting aside my law career which was kind of like a completely different Arc. But if I say as a writer, when did I feel like a success of the first glimmer of success as a writer? Was when I got in Egypt. Hmm, so I hadn't written a book and I hadn't published a book. I didn't have a book contract but there's a lot of people wandering around writing screenplays writing novels writing books. But when I had it and I felt kind of like, who am I just like sitting at a coffee shop writing the wind I had an agent I felt like for an agent there times their money, right? And this person is saying I am giving you my time. I'm investing in you totally because I think that you I Can Go the Distance and for me of everything that happened I think that was the moment. That was the most exciting where I was like this has changed everything about my sense of myself because I'm like It's it just got real it just got real. That's when you have an agent and the same agent used to blame agent. We started out like she says baby agent. She was a baby agent. We started out together or side to side was emailing the email with her this morning, you know, and so that was a very that was a very I don't know that I would say it was it was it was a moment of his profound moment of feeling like okay. Yeah. It was one. I have Sam I've been with the same engine for like a decade. Yeah. He like when we started out. He's at the TV digital agency went through a few different now. He's at CAA and it's hard to get them on the phone. I'm like, that's so great. Yeah. Well, that's one of the things to remember when you're starting out us you may be starting out with somebody else is just starting out and at the time you can feel like well, this is a death knell because how am I going to get anywhere with somebody who's like barely been in this industry longer than I have but it may be the best like the love connection and you rise to get my sister always says people succeed in groups and great, you know, it can be Be it can be great to come together through the work through the through experience. Well, thank you so much for coming. This has really provoked. So many thoughts for all this is so ugly. We can talk all day long stop. Well open invitation. We'd love to continue the conversation and where should people go to listen or read or anything more of you so it Gretchen Rubin.com is kind of the Hub of everything so you can get the podcast there or you can go to your favorite podcast app and listen to happier with Gretchen. Then I do a lot of post their about my adventures and happiness and good habits. You can take the quiz there quiz - Gretchen Rubin.com will take you straight there. You can find it on the on the website. You can sign up for my newsletter Gretchen Rubin.com. / hashtag newsletter. I've got a bunch of news. I have a quote newsletter if you love beautiful quotations or just my general newsletter and yeah, but so if you go to the website Gretchen Rubin.com that's kind of where you can poke around and find more than you ever. / discussion guys one-pagers like all kinds of stuff. There are there pictures of your beautiful apartment. There are pictures. Oh my gosh, there's pictures. There's pictures of my dog Barnaby. I asked to mr. Fisher's in my apartment that high gloss powder room is very much like on my oh love a high gloss powder. You sound very Advanced. Well, I'm just like I'm moving into a new apartment, but I'm very much all about people making very bold choices and a super high-gloss paint is like I'm trying Is there a little tiny tiny room and so it really I love that no with the tiny room. You can kind of do more than you could they because you can really do something. That kind of would be too much. No, but it totally works. No good. Buffalo. Thank you so much for watching this lovely to spend the afternoon with you. I love getting the chance to talk to you. So coming on the heels of that incredibly inspiring and motivating conversation. I feel like it's time to do something that is extremely upholder and get control over our finances. I use QuickBooks every single day at efd. To manage every element of the company's finances and I cannot tell you guys enough how much it saves my life one perfect example of that which happened literally like four hours ago. No less is that I had to pull up a specific amount of exactly what we paid this one person like months ago. And because I had QuickBooks all I had to do was literally go to the part of QuickBooks where it has all the people you paid type in their name. And while I have every payment history of that person that has ever transpired now when I tell you that I used to do the same thing by digging through my bank account statements. May not come through is that you only have searchable bank account statements for like a couple months at most and then you actually have to go to like the PDF versions of the bank account statements and physically go through with your own eyeballs to try and find things suffice it to say QuickBooks has made that entire process vastly easier and one of the biggest things with any company is making sure you know exactly who you're paying and who's paying you if you've ever frankly wondered about either of those things. You should check out QuickBooks and you can do that at the link in our description. And our show notes. So thank you guys so much for tuning into yet another if I say so myself fantastic Financial confessions and please of course reach out to us on social on our site by carrier pigeon. However, you want to get in contact to let us know more of who you want to see financially confess and what you want to see them financially confess about see you next week.
We’re so excited to welcome writer, podcaster, and happiness expert Gretchen Rubin to The Financial Confessions! On this episode, Gretchen discusses her trademark Four Tendencies and discusses how you can use personal finance as a tool to improve your overall wellness, sense of purpose, and self-actualization. Not to mention, she also knows where to get to best cookies in New York City. To learn more about Intuit’s suite of products: https://intuit.me/2NS2yAq To get started with QuickBooks today: https://intuit.me/TFD  Gretchen Rubin’s Website: https://gretchenrubin.com/ Gretchen Rubin’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/gretchenrubin Gretchen Rubin’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gretchenrubin/ Gretchen Rubin’s “Happier” Podcast: https://gretchenrubin.com/podcasts/ Gretchen Rubin’s Books: https://gretchenrubin.com/podcasts/ Gretchen Rubin’s Newsletters: https://gretchenrubin.com/#newsletter Gretchen Rubin’s Four Tendencies Quiz: https://quiz.gretchenrubin.com/  The Financial Diet site: http://www.thefinancialdiet.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thefinancialdiet Twitter: https://twitter.com/TFDiet Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thefinancialdiet YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSPYNpQ2fHv9HJ-q6MIMaPw 