All right, everybody. Welcome back to the best our of their day Fern here Bethany Werner, right? We are in Whistler Canada. We just basically wrapped up the 10-year affiliate Gathering. So she was here for that as well. What'd you think of the weekend? It was amazing? Yeah. I really dug the fact that it was like super loose schedule. Yeah. So it was it was the opposite of everything else that is CrossFit which is like tight timelines got things to do do a lot of stuff. This was a lot.Of eating and drinking and a lot of drinking and a lot of downtime and and then a little bit of you know, kind of interaction with coach and stuff like that and what you think about is his talk yesterday. I'm so hyped up. So motivated again. It was exactly what I needed at this point in one way and I ask that because I think a lot of people there's some obvious obvious. is skepticism rolling around the community and so you said you feel awesome, which I think a lot of people are now intrigued as to why I'm coming up on 10 years in CrossFit. So I've seen it take different iterations over the years and I definitely got caught up in the competition for a while and it felt like a kick in the stomach a year ago when they change that very abruptly and as a masters athlete they changed what we were doing as well. What age group you're in the 42? 42 44 5. Yeah, I'm 43. Got it. Okay. But over the last year to see how things actually worked out in practice and it was great. I loved watching the games. Did you watch the whole weekend or most of it when you screamed nearly every bit of it? Yeah, that's cool and most people don't know that and we talked about it a little bit but like if the V gain or the broadcast of the games was broadcast more widely by a significant margin than it has ever been broadcast. So I was like, well, it was readily available to virtually anybody that wanted to watch it. I was like a hundred. Some crazy amount of amount of entities took the stream and broadcast it was crazy. So I'll just watch the Rogue feed and it was the best one. The quality was fantastic. It felt like the old games broadcast. Yeah, that's cool. Maybe even better. Okay and then so back to so for those of you who don't know. So the this gathering in Whistler Canada was for Affiliates that have been around for ten plus years. Not everybody was right on 10 years. I think there was like 30 We're going to hit 10 years before the end of 2019. I think the I think the numbers I think I saw it on morning chalk up or is like 800 Affiliates that meet that mark of which I think 200 plus we're here. So I think that's pretty badass to get a quarter of the Affiliates that were your starters that are still around there. I think that's awesome. Yeah. I thought it was like CrossFit. it of old it was like it felt very 2008 2007 a lot of like old faces and just it's really cool to see people around but I thought his talk was a great he so he spoke for the obviously guys weren't here, but he's Combined him talking and QA was 3 hours. So tell me a little bit about what you thought about it. It reminded me why we're doing this it were there for the members were making people's lives better. We're not here to do the 300-pound snatch and to win the CrossFit games. That's why my gym is open. That's why I wake up in the morning super energized. And now I'm just extra energized going back taking that with me. That's cool. So if anybody want like spoiler alert here, so he did open his talk with like and I think he kind of just popped those those skepticism balloons. He was he There is no crisis the company's not going public or anything like that. Everything's fine. It's just change and we all know how people feel about change particularly. If you own an affiliate, you know, people feel about change which kind of leads to some of the things we're going to talk about is you have to Affiliates. Yes that are not co-located not even close. Yeah. So tell me it's all tell us about that. So you have one in a while. And then your other one is CrossFit Sandy in Sandy Utah as my first affiliate. We just reached our 10 years. We're a couple of weeks ago. So I'm here at this event and then an opportunity came up at the end of 2018 for me to buy a CrossFit Kapaa on the island of Kauai and I took that over on January 1st. How does that how do you get a presented with a purchase of a business not in the continental United States? Honestly, it was the Affiliated owners group on Facebook. We're all good things happen. It was Halloween morning and the post poped up. And I took a screenshot of it and send it to my husband who is on a business trip and said Fun Day Dreaming, right? And he responded you can do this and we're doing it at school. So and you've been there and that acquisition was Final and how long have you been there? I flew out on December 30th taught my first class in the morning the 31st and you're coming up on a year itch. Okay. How's it been so far? So much better than I could have imagined. That's great. It wasn't wasn't as hard as I thought the community was more welcoming and the benefits of the drop-ins and the landscape and just everything about that place is fantastic. So obviously don't have to give a numbers here, but I do think the discussion of a purchase or an acquisition comes up fairly regularly in the CrossFit community and a lot of people do them very very differently. But how was that negotiation and process for you? Was it painful? Was it messy? Like how did how did it kind of go? It was fairly easy. It was a series of a few emails to tell the truth really. We had one phone conversation sent some emails with follow-up questions. Then I basically took the inventory list send it to Rogue and said, what would it cost if I was going to buy this equipment new and get it shipped to Kawaii and I made an offer based on what the equipment was worth. Did you go by you went on you presented your offer based on new equipment I use that to inform. My decision, I'd appreciate it it thought it okay and then just out of curiosity. Do you mind that like I know generally what read what resale equipment would go for and it's generally not 50% of what new would be. Yeah. I just sold a bunch of stuff from one of our other facilities and like there are there are things that that maintain value rowers bikes probably 60 to 70 percent of their about everything else like 50% immediately like the day that you purchase. It's like a car it is like it's a bad investment if you're trying to resell it. so be now did you was that basically the purchase one down like you bought the so there's a couple different scenarios if a business is profitable then I'm doing some sort of multiple of income or if it's not generally what you're doing is you're essentially just buying their equipment and assuming a lease and memberships. Is that basically how you're excited. Yeah, which is Unfortunately, probably the vast majority of purchases in the CrossFit community and I say unfortunately because that just means that largely people are not running like super profitable businesses, which is kind of the point of this podcast that things were trying to change so that people can propel. What are the purpose of this podcast on things that we do is to? Continue to push the community forward in coaching and business and there's a lot of people doing it in business, but then in our experience and what you and I'll let you speak about this a little bit is like the coaching Community is largely what I get the sense is starved information-wise. So, okay, so you still have your your other facility and you're in Kauai and then so you're coaching the vast majority of classes at this point. Yeah. It's a light schedule we have four classes a day. Two hours of open gym and I cover all but five hours per week. Okay, and if anybody needs time off that I cover those other five hours to how many other coaches you have three. Okay, so they don't coach a ton do the is that part time for them? They obviously do something else. Okay. It's a pageant prep passion for them that they coach got it. Do you have a plan to I don't want to say remove yourself but work out of that 80 our coach, you know classes a month deal. I had a plan it hasn't gone as planned. Okay. I thought that I'd moved to the island get to know people recruit some coaches that weren't coaching. I just figured in a community like that. There'd be every Talent available and there hasn't been to date. So now the plan B is start to develop with help from within we're just going to be a slower process, but probably yield an outcome that I'm gonna be more comfortable with in the long run. I'll give you plans see we're putting it out right now on the podcast if you want to move to Hawaii and Coach CrossFit CrossFit Kapaa is looking for a so which I think Obviously, there's two scenarios. I can develop my coaches within or I can pull them from the outside and I think that people are And I get it, right so it's CrossFit and a lot of ways. We think we're unique. However, we are not in many many many ways that people get real weird about bringing somebody from the outside into kind of I don't to say take over and and Shepherd your your herd, but kind of yeah, right but there are some really good coaches that are from the outside that would like that would do that and we talked about this on I think it was a coach compensation podcast with Todd that there there there is a Area where you absolutely could do that and something there like there are absolutely great candidates to do that. So if you're interested hit us up will hand you off at the knee can do an interview with you and then and then she can get some overtime back. What's been the biggest struggle with from a on the business side because you are now. 100% removed from your now tenure affiliate The biggest struggle is ensuring that my values are continued even when I'm multiple thousands of miles away. Do you have a GM at the other spot? I do I got incredibly lucky. This is really what's made the second Jim a possibility for me co-owner of a gym out of Miami got married. His wife got a job in Utah. They moved up to Utah he sold out of his other gym. Okay, that was kind of a dream scenario. Oh, yeah, super experienced coach great energy super knowledgeable. So he coached for me for six months and then this opportunity presented itself to buy the second gym. So I went to him and said would you be interested in it? Because if he hadn't been interested I wouldn't have taken the next step. That's interesting. So you that's kind of how it should work. So you had the GM in place before this came up you this wasn't you didn't get a GM in a reactionary fashion to having this opportunity to come up. Yes again. Okay. Okay. That's great. Yeah, that's what you should a lot of people including myself have done it backwards. So and I regret it afterwards. So that was a mistake. So, okay, and then how much how much enter so I'm I This is a selfish question for me. How do you manage that GM from afar? What's the time difference there for hours your peasant of it's daylight savings are not but currently four hours sometimes three hours. Okay. Okay. So what kind of was that communication like right so there are people that are considering opening another gym. Most of them are going to be co-located in the same region or city. How are you keeping tabs to ensure that your values still exists within the gym like what is that management look like for you? It's a lot of communication via. An email periodic phone calls, but we're both more typing kind of people than talking. Okay, so we touch base on a lot of things and then when I am in town, we sit down we spend a lot of time together. I spent every minute I can in the gym getting the vibe talking to the members getting feedback from everyone. We've got cameras in the gym too. So I can turn Barn it's good. Listen. I'm not above any of that. We've got a couple of robberies facilities. So that was the original reason that we I installed them but it it's nice to be able to turn it on and see hey, you know the gym actually got clean when it was supposed to get cleaned things look safe. Yep. Do you do you guys have any set kind of battle rhythm with regard to meetings that you guys do like a do you check in with him on specific days for specific things we started out that way but now it's become more as needed. It works out to be about every other week. Whispers verbal communication. Yeah, and then I will be assuming you have some form of communication almost daily. Couple times a week. Okay, he's good. Okay, he's really quite independent. That's great. Yeah, and then how much of the business easy manage so it because this is always a question that comes up is like well do does he do they get to see all the finances? Like how does all of that work? Like people get really freaked out about that. I still control the finances. He's not working on that part because he's the member experience. He brings on new clients chases down the leads coaches throughout the day manages it. Watching schedules does all the programming and then the other question people would have is and there's I don't I actually don't think there's a right or wrong. I just think it depends for as far as compensation when you brought him on was that did you guys agree upon a salary or is he paid hourly or percentage basis for programs and stuff like that that's changed actually since we started even since the first of the year initially it was going to be on a per class basis and then then a flat amount for administrative tasks and it wasn't terribly satisfied with that and we had some negotiating going on about five months into the process. And now he has a flat salary and I'm proud to say we're playing paying him a women living wage now, that's fantastic. I mean, I'm put you in a very small minority as far as CrossFit Gyms. I can do that. How has the gym gone? Have you seen growth as it been steady? Like are you pretty happy with it? We had a massive culture change last summer in that he pushed hard for putting members on contracts, which we had never done before and philosophically. It was really hard to persuade me that it was of value to the gym and to the members, but we've done that there was a little bit of attrition when we initially did that but small I'm talking like 5% maybe so Let's talk about that. Right? So there's two for anybody that hasn't had this conversation or doesn't understand there were just weird CrossFit gym owners are weird. We're far too. Nice. That is a very much far more mental. Probably correct philosophical. Wrestling match than it is just like to actually do it, right. So I'm genuinely curious. How did you switch your mindset? How did you get to the point? How are you wrestled over to the other side? You're like, alright, let's do it. I'm good. We talked about it in terms of what it would allow us to do as an organization instead of just having CrossFit wads. We were able to broaden the schedule introduce some open gym some specialty classes like an OCR specialty class a lower skill Crossings OCR obstacle course racing got it. Lots of folks that are into the Tough Mudders the Spartans. It was a prep program from them. Do you guys have I mean, what do you guys have a special equipment for that? We've had that I've always been kind of into strongman stuff. I used to be the summer of strongmen. So I bought from an event a bunch of leftover sandbags slashed tires all those sorts of things. Okay, and then as far as I can allowing you to do that. I'm assuming that we're talking about I have for the most part guaranteed revenue is that we're talking about. Yes. Okay. What was your hesitation? Why didn't why didn't you want to do it? Because I love the old-school thought, you know, if we're excellent, they'll stay I'm going to be so good. Nobody's going to want to leave. and Yeah, that does just doesn't play out in reality. So talk about that a little bit because it's like myself included. We all take we all think worst-case scenario is that reality is if you look at all your members like most I mean assuming you don't really suck. They're all going to be there for at least a year. Right. So do you guys let me know so this is the I'm gonna put you on the spot here. Do you guys have did you do any price changes when you put a contract or did you just take everybody move them over? Same price point but I'm going to go put them on because the price o not substantially but $10 a month was the very lowest rate $10 more than what they had and paying been paying would be the lowest rate. Okay, and that was with a one-year commitment. So what kind of pushback did you get from the wrist? Very little I was shocked and the questions that I did get were surprising. Like what can you ensure that we retain the same staff that will have our coaches that we love that's a legit question. But a great question that that was what they were concerned about was wonderful that's almost like cheating meaning that That's a super easy response in the sense that your responses because we're doing this. I can now guarantee that with the exception of some crazy stuff happening, but you're like absolutely that's why we're doing it and they're like, oh, okay cool bring it up. When we Britt when we raised our prices a couple years ago. there was a handful of people that we did like a six-month roll up because the price increase was going to be pretty substantial for them because they've been with us for eight years when we were doing stupid stuff for with regard to pricing before that and nothing I would tell anybody who's getting ready to go through some sort of contract conversion or price increase that five percent would be a massive loss of membership meaning like 5% of your base leaves because you do this that would be an incredible number like most of the time it's less than 1% and if you do the math You see you still come out net positive because you brought the price up and you're lost two people who reality is were probably going to leave anyway, because they're probably your number one guy purrs complainers or just people like that. So that's awesome. And then so what what kind of that process look like? So talk to me about the communication of that because that's super important. It was a soft roll that initially we started talking about in class has frequently and then there was an official notice about a month and a half before it was going to take place and we kept talking about it and talking about it sending emails saying you need to pick your commitment level and then we got down to the wire and they're still people not making the commitment. So we said if you say nothing, this is what we're going to do. We're going to put you in the lowest rate possible. You'll get a one-year term unless you tell me otherwise and then we're there people that just did no communication. You just switch them over. Yes. Luckily the check-in system that we use if they haven't signed a contract yet. It would pop up with the contract and force them to sign it before they were able to check in for the next class. Okay. And then what what CRM D is your check-in system and you can just move that away from push press. Okay. Do you like it? Yeah. Okay. I know quite a few people that use it do you use it now? That's not what else do you cause you can't just use push press right sugar wide. That's what I thought. You have to use them paired together. They work really nicely together. Okay? Okay, and then Do you know what the number was that you lost and I conversion? If you don't that's fine, I would guess it was about three people and which is a joke. And sometimes you lose people just because you communicated with them. They've haven't been in for a while its billing them every month and the email that catches their attention as what that causes them to cancel finally and I think that was more of the case. So this is going to sound really terrible. So I've had conversations with gym owners and I don't know what your frequency Of communication is with your member-based like whether it's social media email in person text phone call whatever that are hesitant to do things like change prices change Merchant processors because of fear that these people who are not showing up are going to quit when you have to reach out to them and tell them have to change their payment information, right? And to me I'm like, well, I feel like we've identified a problem is Maybe you need to get these people in the gym. But what did you have any of that with regard to I don't like with what frequency do you count like? So I'm a big fan of like we are not an out of sight out of mind a gem like you're going to get no less than two pieces of communication for me on a weekly basis. If you want to unsubscribe them that's completely up to you, but I'm not going to be like you're in and then you never hear from me again. So like how do you guys do it? We do a lot of our communication through sugar wad. There's a pronouncements feature there. So when they log in to look at the work, Out that's when they're going to see a lot of the communication for things that are not super formal, you know does sugar wad do you know do they push notifications? So the clients meaning like will they get a notification on their phone or do they have that is that like a passive where they have to go in and actually look at it. It's a push, but you can turn it off. Okay? Personally, I would like to see far more push notifications within some of those crms because I think that with the ability with people that have the ability to turn it off another one that's super annoying for me and like what if I if you're listening which I don't know if you are but having people have to automatically opt-in to SMS or text function within one of I is incredibly annoying. It should be the other way around like they've opted in for my service. They've said I can communicate with them. It's ridiculous that I have to like track people down to be. Okay. Can you opt in for text messaging so that when the gyms closed you get the text message that I sent out all that. So yeah. Anyway, sorry, that was my intention just complete annoyance with lot of find some sense. But okay, so then what is What's your timeline or do you have a timeline as far as like so your coaching how many classes a month right now, roughly? Idiot, so for those of you that don't go July that is a shitload of glasses. Yes. It's a lot. I've done I did about a six month period where I did no less than 80 but probably average north of a hundred a couple of years ago after I let one of my head coaches go and that is brutal and I don't mean brutal in the sense that like, I don't like to coach. I mean brutal in the sense that that is emotionally exhausting. Right teaching a class is a performance you lay it all out there. You can them everything you've got and then you have to go and re-energize somehow particularly. If you're doing them back to back now. You guys have a little bit. I don't know say like a leaner schedule, but you said you have four classes a day and then two hours of open gym. That's give us six out. So what do those class times look like 6 a.m. Open gym from 7:00 to 9:00 9:00 a.m. For 45 and 6 p.m. She got a decent Gap in the middle of the day then yes. If you open a class times and there would you get would you get more? I don't think so because the population yeah, local members are working and tourists are bursting. Yeah drinks with little umbrellas in them. Okay. So on that note as far as 80 how long you been maintaining that workload since the first of the year. Okay with a couple I've had some guest coaches come out. Yep. Some good friends of come out for three or four weeks and run the gym so I could go back to Utah and check in there. So sorry about that. How do you do that? I were lucky that the facility has a studio apartment attached to it. So it's the best commute ever and I tried to set it up basically like a an Airbnb for coaches. So it's fully stocked. It's clean. It's ready for them to use and they can come and stay teach the classes go have fun during the day and then they keep the place running for me. What is your vetting process? So I know somebody's listening to this be like, I will look back. I should go to Hawaii to date is only been people I know really well. Okay, for example a That worked for me for five years before moving across the country people have coach for me at my gym in Utah and then the most recent was friends of another gym owner people who would guess coach for him. Got it. Would you be open to having like obviously you have to vet them and make sure they're not complete turds. But if you were going to get them, what would it look like? Try to help you out here Bethany. Well, thank you that's going to my to do list a proper vetting procedure because it's been personal relationships this far. Okay, so this is something And I don't want to know when we're going to release his podcast, but I did one with the barbell jobs guy and a lot of what we talked about is like coaches the vast majority don't have an actual resume meaning the resume consists of I like CrossFit, which is not an actual blocking resume like that is still the thing is still a thing and that would be the first piece of the vetting process which is like I have a resume. I've been working at this gym. These are my professional credentials. These are my References at which point you can you can start that process without even having to talk to them and then reach out to some people and figure that out. But would you be open to having some people come out there? Absolutely, right because I'm pretty sure so what's the longest you've had somebody guess coach for you one month as a long time. Yeah, and then what do they have to cover basically just travel to get out there? Yes, and then is there I'm assuming there's compensation involved with that there hasn't so far because it's been my friends got it. Okay, but they have there. Driving my car. They're staying at my house. They basically get her fornication. Yeah, they get a month-long vacation in Hawaii. I feel like I'm not a huge barter or trade person. But I feel like that would be a fair trade. I hope so and a community is something special out there, you know even here I ran into a pair of friends at the 10-year affiliate Gathering who'd been out at my gym for about 10 days and they were there in February and they're asking by name how someone so doing what about her. What about him and not just what they're In the gym, but their lives like they got to know some special people there. That's really cool. And then how big is your community and who I like as far as your crossword Community 40 members? Okay, so it's nice and tight then. Okay, that's great. Do you what's the what's the max? What's the max kind of capacity you feel like you can have their like did you grow to 2 or 300 people or now not enough people. If we added more classes throughout the day if they were spread out at different times certainly we could do that and we have had classes with 15 people and are 700 square foot gym. That's a trick. Yeah, that is a tight. So talk to me about your space, right? So that's that's always another one. So 700 square feet. So for those of you are not big on square footage, it's not big. Yeah. It's considerably smaller than most girls would jump trying to think of what summers work you would be. Well, there's no video version of this webinar, but it's a not big. What does that look like? So what challenges do you have from a coaching standpoint? So let's dive into coaching here for a second. What what are your biggest challenges with regard to space and Logistics that you have to navigate in your gym specifically. I have to program to the space without a doubt double unders are definitely a trick for us to program because that takes up a good amount of space if they're barbells on the floor. It just doesn't happen. Got it. Even box jumps that gets to be a little bit tricky so last week we had a workout with biking rowing double unders and I picked Thursday because that's typically our slowest day of the week A lot of times. I'll have two or three people per class 6 a.m. I've got 800 shit. Yeah. Okay. And so what are some of the things that you've done with regard to the programming that have helped you mitigate that so for and ask this question. A lot of this came up recently. I think it was at a level. Yeah. I was at a level 2. I didn't Kansas City and somebody was like What if I have this and if you've not been coaching a long time and you've not had to be really efficient with your space in your timeline, like you're not forced to be creative in these scenarios. So what are some of the creative things that you've learned to do with regard to that in order to facilitate a 15-person class and a 700 square foot facility dumbbells take up a lot less space than barbells. That's the first thing to look at. Them outside to run instead of using a bike or a rowing machine. Sometimes we do have to go to a partner workout or an alternating Imam or something along those lines all very simple. None of which really change the stimulus of the workout. That's like the first thing that I hear when you sell me that and I don't know why more people don't do that probably myself included. So like we tend to not make that quick distinction of okay a barbell takes up. We'll call it. roughly so it's 7 and going to go to three back. Yeah, roughly 20 square feet right for a barbell right? Not a dumbbell a dumbbell takes up about eight square feet because I just need enough room to stand and hold onto two dumbbells. But I can still for the most part right if it's a metcon I can still get roughly the same loading, right? So if it's a hundred 35-pound you might go 55 to 60 pound dumbbells and even 60 would be a pretty aggressive because that's not a one-to-one transferred. By the way meaning for those of you that don't know what I mean is that let's use like France if you've if you've done friend with a barbell 295 pounds and most people would just go. Okay. Well, I'll just do like 50 pound dumbbells and go to a hundred. That is not the same like it is significantly more difficult to do Fran even though it's only five additional pounds with two dumbbells than it is to do with a 95 pound barbell. So it is generally a lower weight by something to the tune of about 10 to 15 percent anyway, so you can swap out dumbbells and significantly reduce the space required to do the same workout and kind of make it harder for sure. Yeah, so anything else besides those But besides those ideas. I've Gotten Good at the programming and picking which days to bring things in literally two dates. I've been there since January first. There's one day in one class where double unders were included. I had to say, I'm sorry. We just can't jump there 12 of you in the room. Do you generally have a back-up plan with regard to that meaning? Like if I was going to make this a partner workout? This is what I would do immediately. Yes. I generally do have a back-up plan. And I also have maybe tertiary plans for if this person is there and that person is there because my regulars need particular modifications. I've put the bikes in the lobby some days. So, how big is our lobby I have not measured that I would guess 250 300 square feet, but that's not included in your so you have to 700 square foot of a working space. Yes. I'm talking about parking space. Got it. Okay, I was gonna say if you just chopped off and I was like, okay that changes things significantly if we now have 500 square feet. All right, and then do you is that retail space or like okay check in retail. There's a cute little tiki hut for the kids to play in. Cool, and then where your space is located? What kind of properties that is that retails at warehouse or what is it its retail? Okay. We share the building with quite nuts. So the best-smelling neighbors ever they roast these delicious smelling nuts and then adult novelty store right next door to us called hush nuts and adult novelty. I like it. We also specialize in creating salty nuts. There you go. That's your tagline. I really hope that's on your website. What kind of nuts? They wrote their everything wide variety of Academia almonds. I don't even know honestly, I don't shop there because I'm afraid if I start eating I'll never stop. That's a good point like Brazil nuts are like that like Brazil and up in Brazil nuts and macadamia nut. So just eat them all day long and a macadamia nut. For those of you Zone nerds is one block of fat. So yeah another tidbit of useless information rattling around in my brain. Do you do the programming? I did up until two months ago. And I finally broke down and started to use comp train their class version though, right or is it okay their class? So how do you like it? It's good stuff. And for the price, I cannot write my own programming in quality coaches notes for what they're charging is their coaches notes. Is that a lesson plan or is it just like stimulus notes and stuff like that. So it's very detailed. Okay lesson plan. I've never used it. That's why I asked. Uterus called coaches notes where they started. Okay, and then so let me ask you this. Do you how closely do you and your coaches follow the coaches notes? I would say I adhere to it perhaps 80% what causes you to deviate and that 20% the space or just time obviously, it's my experience as a coach. I have particular ways of teaching things that I like. I may use there's once or twice and then decide I like my way better or just to add a little variety to it. I like it. We we used warmth and work out for probably a little over a year and that's because I Trust and know Pat Barber and I am very common in the product they produce but we regularly regularly deviated but I learned a lot by using their stuff because he would program things that I would probably never program because I just didn't like it or didn't want to do it. But I tell you what I did not do in that time frame is I did not change the programming at all unless it was just a literally a piece of equipment we didn't have for whatever reason. But I forced myself to not play with it and I think we run a better Jim and I have a better knowledge of programming because of that because generally we're all biased and if I'll change it not because it's not a good workout or as won't give me a good stimulus or won't make mathletes fitter. It's purely a bias on my end. I just don't want to do that for whatever reason and by doing that you fail to learn. things about those two particular movements or those combinations and what that stimulus actually looks and feels like so yeah, I think it's super important to if you're a you're paying for it, so you might as well just use it but be you're going to learn something even if it's something bad that you don't agree with it speaking of timelines I was looking at All right, so we'll do a little coaching exercise here. Somebody sent me the other day a DM that was a program that was written by a source. We will leave said Source unnamed and it was a ridiculous amount of volume. Meaning there was an Imam strength on the front end. There was skill work. there was for sure a metcon and there was something else in there, but I do remember this there were seven unique movements. in said workout at least four of which were complex meaning like muscle up snatch clean and jerk, right? And this is a one-hour class. Well, it gets better and in this it was touted as like this is built for a 60-minute class at which point I'm like, I need to see that unfold like I need to I need to I need you to my cup put a camera on yourself and show the world how this is done because I'm having a hard time envisioning this not to say that I'm the Its greatest coach but that is an incredible amount of work to get done in 60 minutes. Right and this kind of goes to the program. And the reason I asked about the lesson plans on the workout is because I do want to make something very clear and Jay would agree with me I can speak for him on this because we've talked about it. We are not against doing all of those things, right? I am against doing it in a 60 Minute window, right? So what people fail to forget is this so they see so and so any so you were a prior competitive athlete right? So you've probably had no shortage of days with significant volume in them. Correct part workouts that take three hours correct now, so here is the disconnect when you are training for that. How long in an and how many times throughout the day would it take you to get that training in? So talk to me about a typical training day and then I'm going to shed a light on why this is inefficient at best and really two-bit worst Well, and I was a low-volume competitive athlete I train just one student once a day but there were times during the season that it would take three hours. Okay, and because of some injury history and warm up for me can't be less than 20 minutes if I'm really going to move. Well, yeah, you're definitely not old. However, you're like me and you're not a spring chicken, like it takes me a little while to like sometimes touch my toes because I'm just old and crotchety on days, right? I'm exaggerating but I'm not you know what I mean, so and if so in a three-hour period Did when you were competing at this point? What would that three hours consist of? Probably starting with some skill work could be five different items related to portions of the Ring muscle up then there'd be a strength component. Probably another strength component and then I met kind of some sort cool. So if you put that in 3 hours, it doesn't sound so weird to be very honest with you and if people want to do that, then by all means the issue becomes when I'm jamming all of that into 60 minutes, right and this question regularly comes up at the level two. As we start to draw that timeline out and then eventually somebody raises their hand and they say I go to gym XYZ we have to do this this and this in a one hour time period what do you suggest that I do to which point my response is only first thing you need to do is write a lesson plan so that you can do the best you can do with what you have. The second thing I would do is potentially have a conversation with whoever writes the programming if that is in fact, not you But what will doing that exercise is like tell me on this 16-minute timeline where you're going to teach people how to move better and they're like, well we could cut out the general warm up and I'm like, does that sound like a good idea and like not really? Okay. What else can we cut out? Well, we can cut out the wide brief in the cooldown asset. Does that sound like a good idea to which they reply no, and and it now at that point people are starting to have this aha moment about like it's not about Doing these workouts is bad. Like people are missing the point of what we're trying to say. The point that we're making is like is fundamentally impossible to coach meaning like teach see correct in a 60 Minute time frame when you're doing that in a 60 Minute time period most games athletes. They do all that volume, but they'll have a one hour session in the morning. We'll have a two-hour session the middle the day and they'll do another training session in the evening and then people are coming in trying to jam that into 60 minutes while not dedicating all of the Recovery time involved with that so it's yeah, it's a bad idea. It's not a bad idea at its core. It's like bad idea of the way you're facilitating it. It's just not intelligent to do it that way. It's like way too much in one hour. No recovery at volumes that you can sustain so it doesn't coach. I feel like the better Coach I've become less I want to do that when I was a crappy brand-new coach. It sounded like a great idea keep them busy. So I don't have to teach them anything and now that I actually know things in want Help people. I want the time to do that. Which perfect segue. What at what point did you make that shift from because I think everybody not everybody a lot of people at some point either kind of come to that realization, or they don't they say I'm not paying my bills being fit right so I need to be a better coach at what point did you start to have that conversation with yourself? Like my time is probably best allocated being a better coach. I think when I attended at the time it was called coaches prep. What's now the L2 that helped me a lot to make that decision and that was really 2014 ish. Okay. I took that where'd you take it CrossFit strong and outside of Dallas? Oh, yeah. So do you have you met Gail Yocum? I have not he was here this weekend. So he owns CrossFit strong and he's actually moving into a larger facility. What? Yeah, it's Bonkers now, they're doing some other stuff. So they're doing some of that OCR stuff that you guys are doing as well. He's a super good dude in Dallas. Yeah, who were your instructors? Oh gosh. It's been so long. You remember probably I don't better. I don't name them. They made me cry. It was harsh back then it was yeah, the delivery was not as polished as it is today. Okay, and then so when you left there, what did you walk away from or what did you walk away with more than anything how to be better at programming? Really? Yeah, I guess I built a spreadsheet that I used for five years after that that analyzed every week's workout time domain mono structural gymnastics weightlifting. Number of skills involved and I looked at that every week that I wrote programming. So if for those of you not taking the level 2 it's changed a little bit but the premise is the same it's basically an evaluation sheet where you have like a whole list of movements a stimulus time domain rep count all this stuff on there. And what you do is you basically just put little tick marks for each workout. It checks like this is a 5 to 10-minute workout with the weightlifting and gymnastics. The movements are you know, pull-ups and thrusters. And what else is in there low volume stuff like that. And then what it does is it starts to give you this pattern to basically illustrate whether you are developing some sort of bias in your programming is that basically the same one that you used? Yes, and then when you use that did you also use that to try to start programming forward or just using as an analysis tool? I used it programming forward definitely that we were due for this time to manner the set of skills something along those lines as far as addressing biases. That's a big part of the reason I went with calm trained to force me out of my comfort zone can make me which is which is legit. I don't I've heard him talk about this and I actually agree with it. I don't know if they abide by it anymore. But I'm a huge fan of I do believe that there is one day a week that nobody should touch a Barb there should be no weight lifting. It should be completely. Announcer come on a structural or all of either of those. Is that still in play there for what they do? Definitely. Okay. I think it's just a very simple way to manage intensity and and give people's CNS a break right and that And I think we talked about this recently another podcast but talking about like that is a very yeah Todd and I talked about it, I believe and that's just a very simple way to get people off of the intensity train, right and just like listen, you can't you cannot go full Ham on a 5-mile run. Maybe you can if that's your jam, but probably not going to you know, so that's cool. I'm glad they still do that because I do believe that is a very very effective way to a allow more time to teach them skills, right, but So just give people a break right from beating themselves day in and day out. Yeah, that's that's a big thing. I took away from working with Nick Fowler central nervous system central nervous system fatigue and free of the first five years of my CrossFit career. I just a hundred percent every day and then your body starts to protect itself. It starts to reduce what your maximum hundred percent output is and it took a lot of years to get that back. And that's an interesting topic, which I don't I usually don't go down that road because it's a bit outside of the scope of the courses that we teach in CrossFit, right? So it's a but it is a real thing. Meaning that most what most people are ignoring is that if I am doing heavy lifts every single day. That are not intelligently program meaning like there's some sort of undulation within that programming. There's waves in my training with regard to volume and loading at some point. It becomes detrimental to the adaptation that we are trying to chase meaning like you're going to go backwards, right? And then so you started to see that then before you started working with Nick. Yes. How long do you think it took you to realize that? I don't know that I realized it. He told me that he was like, hey knucklehead. The reason that I went to start working with him is actually that I had back surgery in 2014 her needed L4 L5. Do you know how you did it? I was drunk and playing golf. Listen CrossFit is not dangerous everybody. It is Golf and drinking may be strong enough to hurt myself with a golf club. That's a good point. Good point. Which brings up. Did you do you guys do you guys put in a lot of rotational work in your programming at all know that that is something that people miss right with in CrossFit and that I don't know that it's a legitimate criticism because people who criticize a don't really understand it but But they criticism is there's no rotational work in CrossFit and it's like yeah, we reserve that for sport specific training right now. If you don't play a sport the way you get that is in good warm-ups or maybe putting in some accessory work in there in order to get that rotational but in instances like yours, if you're not working rotational strength, you can develop capacity in this frontal plane movement that could be adverse when I go into some sort of transverse or rotational. Meant to put me in a bad position right? So when you how long did that recovery take Oh, there was a bad complications. There was about a month where I was thinking my new cool life was walking unassisted. So that took took two months to get through that portion and then another six months after that so about eight months after surgery until I got to the point where I was like, hey, I might be able to be an athlete again. We're what kind of loading are you doing at the 8th month Mark like I started with no more than 50% of what our X was for the workout of the day or 50% of what my old maximum was as a very upper end just to give me some hard stuff. That's top end top it got it. Okay. I was going to say that sounds a little heavy. How much physical therapy did you have a lot? What did you learn from that? I didn't go to the right physical therapist. That's fair. So then the question still stands. What did you learn? What did you learn about rehab prehab stuff that you didn't know prior to? Body position embracing that's that's what I needed to learn. Are there any things that you picked up the you now new using coaching that you learned from that experience as far as like either a prepping your athletes or coaching than real time? Definitely teaching new clients had a brace definitely came out of that experience any gems that you've gotten over the years that you find to be Uber effective? No, I'm I don't know that I have the right words for it yet. We're still trying different things. Okay, maybe we come on some words right now. Yes. What so what would if you were to teach me and I'm a new client. What would you do? What would you tell me to do? We start laying on the floor knees bent lower back pressed against the ground and trying to teach them how to make contact with our lower back. Yes. Got it. Okay, so trying to get them to create some sort of abdominal pressure like teaching how to use your diaphragm. Yeah and someday, Eggs and bird dogs things dude, some of the most underutilized warm-ups ever dead bugs are hard as shit. Oh, yeah, and if you the bird dog, if you put a PVC pipe across the base of the back. Yep, you have to balance that and not drop it off that increases the control. It's kind of a little bit of a spin off of some stuff you do in the FMS the function women's okay. I did an active life group class programming for about a year. I use that in my Utah gym a couple of years ago. We was on The podcast yeah, we twice nice. Yeah, I think twice yeah, what did you get from? That is Sean's a sharp dude. Actually you're asking about the rotational stuff. That's where we definitely got the rotational work in our accessory work. So what rotational stuff do you really like to put in the classes? And then second question is do you program that into a workout or you putting that stuff in like warm-ups and cooldowns? I don't put it into a workout. I want to be really controlled properly executed not for time when I was doing it. It was a dedicated 5 to 10 minute cooldown every day and initially people are on board. They were excited about it. And then there were some burnout and probably by eight months in people just not want to do it. They were sneaking out the back door to get away from it. Yeah, they That stuff is hard to get people to do. It's like particular you're going to make it mandatory. Like there's some ways you can make it fun. But even then it's kind of loses its steam. We write the accessory work in the rule is like do some of it do all of it. Do none of it. We don't care it's there for you. When we have time. We'll throw it in and do it as a group and we'll play some games do some stuff like that. I'm a big fan of like just just good old-fashioned Russian Twists just because people can do it from a seated position. They can do it loaded they can do it unloaded they can do with their feet on the floor. They can do it without their feet on the floor, but I find it to be Really really beneficial in the for those of you don't know it's basically like sitting on the floor in kind of like a modified V up is how I would explain it but with your knees bent but you're in the up position and then basically what either touch your hands on either side or like use a med ball or something like that really good partner warm up that you can use for people that I love to do, right particularly. When have new people in the class. You just like hey you're going to do a Russian twist throw your partner and do that. So and then there's the game where you pass the plates down the line. Yeah. Yep, and you can if I want to really spice that up you as a coach can change direction whenever you want have people just go back and forth. Yeah there. I mean, there's so many things and again, it's like you're only limited to your creativity with regard to that stuff. But I do believe rotational should be in there. However, it's hard to I don't know that it if you were to be like hey programming has the bulk of the meal which is like the protein. The accessory working all the rotational stuff is like the vegetables. It's not the primary focus. Right? Like I need protein right and then I'm going to add vegetables to that to get what I need on top of it cool exactly how I described it. It was I can't make people eat their vegetables sometimes. Yeah, which by the way is okay and and probably the norm right? But as long as you're getting them to eat vegetables and understand the value of vegetables that is a win right? That's where it's beneficial from a coaching. Point and that's when people come into you and they say hey, I just don't have a muscle up and back. Are you doing the accessory work and they're like, no. My first one just do that you for the most part you don't need special programming right now, you need to do the accessory work like we built it in so that you can get the things you want. I do believe there are people that at some point need individualized programming or they just want it at which point give it to him. But the vast majority are just straight up GP people don't need something super super fancy. I want to talk to you about the last thing is just kind of like the mentoring piece and is like you you had mentioned before we kind of hit record here that you've kind of felt. I don't want to say alone. But like on literally on an island with regard to coaching and then some of the stuff that you've found beneficial as far as the the weekly phone calls we've been doing and then either things that we do well or the things that we do poorly quite frankly, so The mentoring program has been really helpful for me Kawaii as part of the Hawaiian islands is literally the most remote chain of islands the entire world if measured as distance from accountant, so we're way out there and I'm largely by myself. I don't have any other coaches around the gym. So having the mentor group to bounce ideas off of and say hey am I crazy if I'm having this experience or what has your experience been? How did you deal with this gives me a sense of connection without a doubt has made me passionate again. That's cool. Yeah, I'm almost ten years in and I want to read the journal. I want to write progressions. I want to video myself again. I want to be better one of the things that I learned a long time ago. Is that generally when if I get stuck it's because I just need somebody to a Shed some light on something different or give me a challenge that I was not aware existed, you know or just shed some light on something like that. And once you do that, it's not hard to find the passion again, like you just suddenly get in this little rut where it was like this is a good enough and and then somebody challenged you or throws you something that really pushes the limits of your skill set and all of a sudden. We already know how crossfitters are were competitive and suddenly I want to get back in it again, and I get a little Is that kind of what is going on there? Certainly. I mean, I'm trying new techniques and skills couple weeks ago. I used it. Just simply the ready go Q in a class and it went so well and I know it sounds stupid and so basic and so but it sounds so dumb, but controlling the movement and being able to see people and having the moving in unison it worked so well in people liked it. So it's like being told what to do for sure. So for those people who don't understand what you're talking. Not get like elaborate on that a little bit because somebody is like somebody heard that I don't know evening. So rather than just saying let's do I don't know. So we're doing the push, press holding them in position telling them to be ready and now okay now we drive or whatever. It might be telling them to get I'm going to say ready and then I'll say go and letting them know what to expect when to expect it getting them all moving at the same time instead of there looking like a little bunch of bobbing dolls moving up and down randomly. So and this again, it sounds ridiculous when you say it, right and or when I say or when anybody says it is that changing the command to give it the command something that is like a preface to the command which is and what Bethenny saying is and I see this all the time and a little too so you set everybody up and you get them in there static position, whatever it might be and then all the sudden you just go. Hey, there was no heads-up that there is a command coming and here in general, you know that this is an effective is because people don't move in unison meaning like I have people go at different times and it looks like the wave going around or somebody just does something completely different than we were supposed to be doing when you're giving commands in order to basically just give people a heads up is you just say ready in front of it. It's kind of like in a race. What if they were just like everybody line up and just won't go they don't do that. They say Ready set go in that and now everybody's comes off the line at the exact same time. It's the same thing at the games, right? So they have 30 seconds 10 seconds stand by everybody knows that standby is that 3 seconds? Basically the horn goes and then they all take off at the same time and it's no different when you're teaching your athletes how to move like they need a preface or some sort of precursor to that command that's coming so that they can essentially like get their mind right there. Like, okay, here we go. It's coming and then they go that's really cool that it worked out for you and it is the nuances. Like those like little tiny things like make a big difference without a doubt. What else? I'm trying new things again. And sometimes they don't work. Oh last week. I'd got a PVC pipe involved in killing somebody on a deadlift and it was a fucking disaster. But I think as a result of the conversations have been having with in the mentor group. I'm like, okay, so I tried something it didn't work. She didn't get hurt. She doesn't know the difference. She's brand-new. So we go back and try something that's always my question. So you clearly and it was a disaster did she know it was a disaster? You know, if anything she thought oh I failed I didn't do it the right way and it was totally me I was totally and It's again. A lot of that is just insecurities. Like we're just like there's a lack of confidence when we're trying something new and it's funny. That's what I tell the new coaches. Just try it. Nobody knows if it's going to work like you cannot predict the future and here's what happens if it doesn't work nothing so you just try it a different way when you go through but that trying new things and trying those cues is a how you start to kind of like shave off all the ineffective things and really kind of get down to the meat and potatoes of like what works and what doesn't At work, but then you might end up with a cue that wasn't originally what you set out to have but you kind of like fumbled your way through it. Like oh I accidentally came up with this one day by screwing it up four times prior to that exactly. So that's really cool. What else anything else? Have you started like reading and getting back into like the the not sexy stuff like the actual literature and like points performance and faults and stuff like that. Definitely as was demonstrated one of our recent conference calls. I didn't even know where to find the faults in the manual. Well, that wasn't your fault. You're looking at the wrong version Look in the wrong version. Yeah. I'm definitely going back to them and it's helping me prepare for It's better. I started to challenge myself to look at the day's work out and write some of the points of performance the day before so I had that readily accessible in my memory. Do you feel more efficient in your classes when you do that? And what do you spend on that beforehand like how much time? I'm probably spending 15 minutes prepping for the next day. And that does include taking like the warm-up and making a slide for it in Sugar wad. That's not a ton of time. Not at all. But how much more efficient is it? Make your classes exponentially. That's really cool actually 6 a.m. When I'm half asleep and that's usually the worst class today as far as my presentation. Yes that for also my biggest class of the day. So that is an interesting conversation because I don't think people look at the Or maybe they don't even really realize the the lack of customer service involved with like doing 50 minutes of prep for this exam class, you know, they're already tired. They want the same result the same product as everybody else. And if you're using your 6:00 a.m. Like I did for years as a guinea pig on Mike what the rest of your good classes in air quotes are going to look like for the rest of the day that is super shitty. And I did that for a long time. Like I'll figure out the six a.m. And that is Just horrible, so but I did want to ask you as you brought it up the from the mentoring group. So the reason Bethany was looking for the faults was I believe the homework was practicing demonstrating visual faults. Is that correct? Straight faults from one of them nine foundational got it. Okay, and then you chose the summative type. Okay, and then talk to me a little bit that like what we're was it anything that you learned from? Just going through that process. It was very difficult to demonstrate some of the faults to get my body into the position that was proper. What I probably took away was actually the exercise before that in the homework where we were to demonstrate all nine of the foundational movements and video ourselves doing 10 reps. I am super hyper extended in my pressing finish positions and I had no idea that it but that's great. Now, you know that and that is that are two things that we regularly tell people in a level on a little bit more the L2 which is one know your own movement. You need to know everything that is wrong with your movement. And it has you moving perfectly does not make you a good or bad coach just means you're probably like everybody else and have movement fault. However, we need to know that from a coaching standpoint because when we demonstrate movement if it is not your best variation, or you do have significant deviation from points performance, you should be calling yourself out. Otherwise, you just told everybody that that's okay the other reason the Thing that we will bring up is an inaccurate visual display of what the athlete is doing, right? Because we either a have not practiced or be don't actually understand the fault of the movement and that is a super regular or common occurrence when we see coaches coaching other athletes and what I'm referring to as somebody gives they say hey your will use The muted hip for instance. They will either save it somebody who's doing a muted hip when they are in fact doing an informed inclination of the chest or dip or vice versa or not show an accurate description of that. They'll say one and show the other or just not enough deviation. All of which are the result of that is it is a not clear to the athlete. What should be happening, right? And I think the practicing of the faults a helps you Yeah have more cues, right but then it also helps you understand the movements better. Right and it's a it is a seldom practice and that is a skill like as you just Illustrated like you have to you have to spend some time practicing that stuff have you used any of it yet? Definitely. And as of late local really fantastic Mexican restaurant has started bringing their employees in they don't speak hardly any English and I have like high school or Travelers Spanish. I know some The parts and some numbers. So the visual cues are even more important because they are replicating what I do. So, it's been timely that's very cool. Yeah, if you that's what like the fastest way to get good at visual cues, like teach somebody a movement who does not speak the same language as you get to be real good on your visual cues. Very cool. Well, we are here in Whistler and I don't want to steal any more of your time because I know you guys are going to walk to the waterfall. So thank you for your time. This is really really fun. And if you guys are headed Out to Hawaii hit Bethany up go to a gym. If you want to move to Hawaii and coach for a little bit hit us up will hand you off will that you first and then we'll be Bethany's filter and maybe you can get a paid vacation for a month out there and Coach a little Fitness to the the community out there and your group and staffing agency the Empire groans. There you go. Yeah. I've just created two new streams of Revenue of which J will be in charge of so I'm not asking myself with that so very cool safe travels, and it was a pleasure. Thank you very much. Yep. Thanks for listening to best our of their day. If you haven't heard about anchor it's the easiest way to make a podcast. Let me explain. First of all, it's free. How cool is that? 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In this episode, Fern sits down with Bethanie Werner. Owner of CrossFit Kapaa on the island of Oahu discuss the positives of owning a box that gets many drop-ins over the year. She also owner Crossfit Sany in Utah. Bethanie also breaks down what it's like taking over a box and having to work 80 of coach per month to keep the lights on, her plans for the future. She is a 10-year affiliate owner with a wealth of knowledge on how to make her business work for her. So many knowledge bombs dropped in this episode. From having GM, putting members on contacts, how to make it all work. Also, Bethanie is part of our mentoring group and she talks about that, if you are interested please reach out! Side note Bethanie is looking for a coach at her box, pop over to the gym page and slide in those dm's. Check out the extra goodies about this episode on besthouroftheirday.com Rate/subscribe in Apple Podcasts! Find us on Instagram: @besthouroftheirday + @thejasonackerman Check out our website - besthouroftheirday.com - to learn more about our private coaches development group. 