Its Behavior bitches All right. Today is episode number 17. The rhyme for today is 1/7. I'm in freaking Heaven. And the reason for that is we just had an emergency where we got I think is probably going to the emergency room. So send her your prayers, but we are committed AF to bringing you an episode Monday morning. So I could have said no, we're not doing this but we are going to do this because we have one of the most amazing people ever on this podcast. I'm so excited. We're going to get all into that first a little housekeeping we have created now. This is our 17th podcast in less than five months. That is something to be super excited about. I can't believe it. It's averaging if you want to take the data 3.4 podcast per month, but most recently as our podcasting producer knows we are getting them out every single week and we are so incredibly excited to bring them to you. We now have patreon where you can go and sign up and support. Puss and get some cool shit in exchange. We really really love this. It's growing every day. And we're so happy. The other thing is that you can go and subscribe on our Instagram which is growing so fast Behavior bitches podcast on Instagram Behavior bitches podcast on Facebook again, it's not a running joke anymore because it's kind of stupid. Our actual website is just you know, if you know if you're a website producer out there and you are wanting to donate your time. Please help us help a girl out. Okay, but as always we'll do a five star review of the day. We're so lucky and grateful for the people that leave reviews. We have this one comes from effing amazing. Okay. Bcba to be is your name. If you are hearing this reach out to us and say that you heard us as an inspiring beasts our PCB a behavior analyst who plans to sit for the be CPA exam and the next cycle. I just have to tell you all that listening to this podcast is the hi. Highlight of my week. The topics are broad enough that my fiance enjoys it. Wow. That's awesome. And the behavior principles are worked in perfectly. You cannot beat the real life application. I can feel like I'm being productive in my preparing for my exam while driving to and from work smiling and laughing the entire time. This podcast is definitely increasing the future frequency. My studying behavior that is positive reinforcement you guys. Thank you Leah and Casey for masking or making Behavior Analysis so fun and relatable to those outside of our field. Love love it. Thank you so much BCA to be you are going to be a bcba, especially if you're in our Collective. You're definitely going to be a PCP a. All right, so I will do a quick little break down on this is we're doing a podcast by myself soon enough. We're going to have the best guess in the world and it's gonna be fine, but I was in the shower this morning and I was thinking about the fact that when we first started this podcast we had like my sister leotta sister my best friend. And like these layouts bcba supervisor, we were you know, trying to build this topic. So it wasn't so pigeon-holed into one, you know, the autistic field which we love so much but trying to expand that and show how behavior analysis is relatable in every single thing we do but we are guess we're just you know, you know, we're building it from the ground up. So we just had family and friends and then To have the guest we have on today who I will tell you a little back story a year ago. I listened to a podcast on sr+. Plugging them. They're great podcast. Dr. Aaron blocker Rubin had on this guest. I remember listening to her and I was like immediately. I needed to be her best friend. I needed to see her. I needed to meet her and figure out how she started her business because that's what I wanted to do. So I heard that she was speaking. NG at a business Builder conference in Georgia, I convinced understand RBT at this point not just our bu you guys are in the friggin Lifeline. Okay. Not just I wasn't RBT at this point, but I convinced my work to send me out to Georgia because I was gonna be this business Builder and I had to see her anyways, I'll go into that story a little bit later in the episode. But the point is I can't even believe I get to interview this guest. So without further Ado. I'm going to talk a little bit about her before we introduce her. I want to build. Apple for play for you guys, but as newly minted be cba's for Leah in us we're so excited to have the opportunity to introduce an interview today's guest. She is a force to be reckoned with in the field. She has over 20 years experience and her a compliment accomplishments will blow you away. She has a master's degree in special education from San Francisco Skatin State University while she was in the special ed program. She was convinced or told to take a intro to behavior analysis class and from then on. On as she says it was game over I feel you on that. She became a bcba in 2004 the same year. She founded Ste Consultants, which she grew like crazy over the past 15 years. She is the past president of Cal Abba and she serves on the board of directors as vice president of caaspp the Council of autism service providers if I'm wrong with anything, she'll correct me when she comes on don't worry. She is dedicated to the field and making a difference in the lives of everyone. She meets her personality is huge and she Is unapologetically herself, which is why I love her. She has the best sneaker collection ever and you can usually catch her presenting at conferences while rocking her high tops. Her goal is to be the Oprah of a ba in terms of disseminating the science and connecting people in the field. She will be the first one to tell you that this board exam does not define you she is a badass motivational Rockstar bcba and Mom to two of the hippest kids I've ever seen she fights for what she believes in and is a Pioneer for all Of your analyst she has presented at over 30 conferences. Holy shit her ability to talk and speak. So eloquently amazes me. She is presenting at text Ava on October 11th 11th, and it's going to be off the hook Leo and I are both going to be there. There's a link in our show notes. You should go sign up. You should get there. It will change your life. So without further Ado I welcome you Sarah trotman. Welcome girl. Oh my God. That's a really big buildup. I mean, I feel like I have to deliver, you know what I mean? You have to happen in life and we're rolling with it because guess what? We're not letting you down for the Monday talk especially this episode because this is gonna be amazing. Oh, yeah, we are women that deliver. We are women that deliver the way men. First off we had a chance to talk with Sarah a little bit. She has an amazing backstory her hustle her motivation her dedication everything about her inspires me and I want you guys to feel this level of energy today where you're like, I'm gonna go crush the world and do anything I can do because guess what you can but there are so many things that we're going to learn from Sarah today. So first, I just want you if you don't mind tell us a little bit about you and what makes you think The badass behavior analyst you've become because we can sit here all day and fangirl over you I could literally do that forever, but tell us about you just you know, bring us back and tell us where you started how your crew. Yes. This is I will love I will start at the beginning. So I was this, you know curly-haired girl that grew up in Seattle. I was in high school during the age of the grunge era. So I thought I was tragically hip. I had my Doc Martin and my Birkenstocks and I tried to get a tattoo before I was 18 and it was a disaster and I really didn't want to know what I want to do for college. So I basically went to the school that gave me the most Funny I thought that that was a good it was a good choice. So I went to Gonzaga University for undergrad which is in the Charming town of Spokane Washington and by Charming. I mean, it's a terrible place to live but it is a wonderful tremendous University. And as one of the you know, the students that had to work her way through school. So I wasn't saddled with student loan debt. I got a job in the works that he department or I work study job in the special ed department at Gonzaga. And all of these special professors were all these things called behavior and with which I had absolutely no idea what that meant. They had most of them had gone to the University of Kansas together which again I was like not understanding the significance of that University's role in our field and they basically harangues me until I acquiesced and said I would take an intro to behavior analysis class because I thought of course that I would become an attorney and make lots of money and live a fantastic life. Well turns out I had no idea what I was thinking and talking about because when I started taking the interest of behavior analysis class with Randy Williams and this is in the fall of 1996 my life change I was exposed to this science and understanding of how we behave that made so much sense to me and to think that our Behavior can be changed based on changing stimuli and our environment and that it Operant conditioning is a thing and understanding how it works just really blew my mind. But also what I really love is the way that my professors taught. They taught us to fluency. They really wanted us to master concept and it made me feel like I was home and so I decided to major in special education and I was the first person out of Gonzaga University that instead of graduating with a teaching credential graduated with an emphasis in functional assessment. And now I've never heard of that. I've never heard of the emphasis emphasis in functional assessment. Yeah, it was really weird. But here are some very strategic things that happened to me that really have helped my journey along the way one Stephanie Peterson who's now the chair of the psychology department at Western Michigan University and an amazing behavior analyst in her own right? I was one of her first advising out of her PhD program, so I got to work with her for a year and undergrad and when I left Gonzaga or Suddenly, I actually graduated this is an important thing to note. I did graduate. I was recruited to teach at a school in the Bay Area for kids with severe developmental disabilities severe behavior disorders and my boss. And the reason that I took that job with Tyra sellers who is now the director of ethics of the bacb and at that time Thomas higbee who is a fantastic professor and researcher at Utah State University now was the head clinician that Spectrum so I have been while in somewhat of a more non-traditional route with some of my education because my Master's Degree isn't in Behavior Analysis. I've been the beneficiary of working with some pretty amazing mentors and clinicians along the way and so I took this job at Spectrum Center I taught for a year then I parlayed it into a consulting job where I got to work with Public Schools all throughout the Bay Area for which I was totally and utterly unqualified, but I talked my way into it. And then I did my Master's Degree. I was able to sit for the the board exam and I think I told you to say it was so funny. I did this is like some old school stuff because I was born a certified for 15 years. I sat in this auditorium at UC Berkeley where they sat one of us in the chair and the space what event in a chair into space and I did my be CPA exam using a Scantron form and that like the SAT when you would color and dots. Oh first. Yes, I know this is Like this is very challenging probably for a lot of your young audience members to try to conceptualize and I remember taking the test and I went home and I fell asleep for three hours and I was certain that I had in fact failed and also this is now at the beginning of the internet given - is 2004. So your test results were mailed to you. So there was no portal at that time. There was a bacb portal and so I received this little envelope make it like 6 or 7 weeks later with my certificate stating that I had in fact. Pass the exam and that was really the beginning of it all and I started Ste Consultants the same year. I became a board certified behavior analyst I've had the opportunity to work with some of the best clinicians. I know to help grow my business into work on a lot of different business verticals, whether it's early intervention, whether it's working with adults and teens working in schools working in community settings working at home and I did that for 15 years until I was successfully To sell and exit by businesses past June. So this journey of from from 1996 until 2019 has been I believe one of the best gifts of my life and I made it a priority for me and I knew that I was going to sell my business and do something else that I wanted to spend the remainder of my career supporting this growing field, especially supporting Behavior analysts that are new to the practice and welcoming everybody with open arms and really trying to produce quality events trying to speak at Great conferences attends be on podcast disseminate on social media to really help provide mentorship leadership and clinical skills to this young group of people that are charged with Distributing this amazing science that changes lives. And so that's why I'm here Sarah. That is exactly I have goose bumps all over my body. I just want to run out and disseminate ABA and learn everything. I can and you guys this is what I'm talking about. I listened to her podcast a year ago when I hadn't even taken my board exam. Okay, and I wanted to go out and see her so bad. I had to go learn how to become a business Builder and I will say and I know we're going to get into this later in the episode but it is not easy to start your own business. I know people that pass our exam or like I'm going to work for myself and go out and start a business. After going to that conference, I just want you to know Sarah I learned so much. I was educated and I needed a lot more experience to be a safe disseminator in provider of ABA. I could not just go do it right away. And that was a big Awakening for me as a person who is so motivated and wants to change the world like tomorrow and is you know us always 15 steps ahead and you know, I can do everything. I'm a control freak, but no I had to really Look at the fact that I needed to get the experience because what you mentioned what you were talking about is the mentors that you had. I mean Tyra Sellers and Tom Tom higbee. Those are big people and I unfortunately in New Hampshire where I live, I've got some people around here, but I need that mentorship that I'm looking for which is where my next step is is connecting with a bunch of people in the field and growing my actual knowledge of ABA and applying it I bet Ten years of Applied setting with adults. I need a lot more with children. I know I know my areas of what I need, but when I you know, we have this opportunity to have you on here. I'm like we are going to get to tell all the newly be cba's, you know what exactly it takes this, you know, Sarah started in 2004 you guys and started her own business. She will go into a little bit more about that now, but I'm telling you that the most important thing supervision. Okay, you need good supervision, right Sarah. Absolutely. And also I think something that people need to keep in mind is when people are engaged in graduate work and graduate Behavior analytic coursework. You know, your this is great foundational skills and terms of your clinical knowledge, but you're not necessarily being exposed to two other really strong skill sets that you're going to need in order to Be an Effective clinician and those are operational expertise and effective leadership. They are not necessarily discreet. He taught in graduate programs because that's that's not the thrust of the graduate program. The graduate program is to make sure that you have the foundational knowledge and the technical application of our science to be able to be effective. But in order to be a practitioner in order to supervise staff in order to work with tons of different types of families in order to have cultural competencies in order to build rapport with your clients and your staff. There's a lot of up to skill sets you need and so that's where Lee I'm really glad that you stated that you came away from. The business boot camp that we get in Atlanta last December just realizing like, oh my gosh. I am entrepreneurial. I do think there's so many things I can do and I agree with you you are and you can but there's no shortcut to understanding from a more holistic perspective. What are the skills that I need to be able to have in my repertoire the really be able to own a business and execute a business in a sustainable way in a way that focuses relentlessly on clinical quality. Tea and really to be able to feel like you can do it with some good skills. So you can operate with sustainability and confidence in and that's what I want to talk a lot about and I in no way shape reform would ever be dismissive about anyone that's interested in wanting to start a business because I did and I started it out of my kitchen in East Oakland and I kind of slowly and systematically built it up and I made horrendous errors, but I was operating in a very different environment where there Probably a little more room for forgiveness or I wasn't drawing down Healthcare dollars and because my perspective the biggest change that's happened in our discipline over the last 10 years. And so this is just a different environment that requires different skill sets and I just want to make sure that people understand what those are and also to one of your earlier point the idea that obtaining ongoing supervision and mentorship is just a critical piece of developing as a professional in the great thing about our World now is we're all connected. And so even though you are in New Hampshire, maybe might be more challenging campaign that in-person mentorship and supervision. But now there's so many different Outlets were really you can access anyone and what I'm more interested in is really kind of pointing people in the right direction of what does it mean to have appropriate supervision. How do you obtain those mentorship to experiences? How do you find people that you might want to be working with and that's really been the thrust of the work that I've been doing for the last, you know, three or four months since the Exodus. And that's what I love so much about I saw your video on Facebook about and we can yeah, we're jumping everywhere but the behavior analysts Leadership Council tackle. Yes. Yeah, but you're now, you know Consulting with and yeah making that leadership for the newly minted be cda's the you know, the are BTS and creating that you know again, maybe it's not in New Hampshire right here in person, but maybe it's, you know online. I see these people in the field for 30 years. Azure you 20 years of experience and I just want to soak that up like a sponge and have all that information. I will tell you I just left my or I'm leaving my job on the on the 9th of October because and it's one of the big things is that I got thrown into a clinical director position as a newly minted minted bcba and I felt very overwhelmed no supervision and I realized I had to be the one the money was Eight like of course, but sure I was realizing ethically my scope. You know, Matthew Brodhead says that the best there's a difference for school are not the same. So yes, my scope of practice is a bcba. Yeah, I could be able to do all those things but have I actually come into contact with that contingency and actually been trained in XY & Z No, I have not yet. I have not had that experience and I had to be the one to say. I need to take a step back. I you this role is for someone with maybe you know, I'm not going to put a number but say 10 to 20 years experience. I don't know leading people doing X Y and Z and the skills and this is a big thing for me to admit is that I wasn't there yet. I was put into a position that I was not ready for an I could have just stayed in it and it had imposter syndrome forever and you know made money, but I did not I could not ethically do that. And so that was my first ethical. Dilemma situation in the field and I think I handled it very well. Yeah, because I think something is of critical importance for behavior analyst to understand if you look at the professional and ethical compliance code the first section is about the responsible conduct of behavior analysts infection 1.0 to talk specifically about your boundaries of competent and it says two things the first is that we will provide services teach and conduct research only within the boundaries of our competence. Defined as being commensurate with our education training and supervised the experience. The second is that we provide services teach or conduct research in areas only after we have first undertook appropriate study training supervision and or consultation from people who are competent in those areas and obviously within those definitions and you know, it's like the devil's in the details, right? Well, how do you define, you know appropriate training? How do you define appropriate supervised experience? And so that's where? You have people like Matt fraud has out of Michigan State David Cox on Quigley really pushing this issue. You see a lot of I don't know if you've ever had a chance to listen to Justin. Let me speak before from I went to his house and he's a really close friend of mine. I'm Already There the kit is a floor of Competency. Not the feeling. It's just before it disappears the certificate functions as a validation that you know certain things that doesn't mean that you're complicated doing them. It's just think that you know, that that you've met the minimum standard. It's a minimum standard and it is that a minimum standard for someone like me that's been certified for 50 years that we have seen the bacb put tremendous. us effort in continually evolving, you know changing to make it, you know as comprehensive as possible to really enjoy that people that are a qualified to sit for this exam, you know have done all of the work that they're supposed to be doing that were always iterating in terms of the the different types of competencies that people need to display but it still again just a minimum standard and that's how certifications work and so looking at the section 1.03 of the Analyst professional and ethical compliance code the whole idea is that you're going to maintain competence through professional development. And that's where I think a lot of this conversation is going is again, you you obtain your you know, your four letters behind your name your super stoked about it if you reside in a state where there's licensure you also might get to put LBA after your letters and so now, you know, you're feeling amazing and you should feel amazing because that's a great accomplishment. But girl, it's just the start. It's Just the start and so I think really giving some guidance in terms of like, okay. Now, what is the most important thing for new behavior analyst to think about and really being able to go to reputable sources for the now what is something that's important that I think it's really great that you and liat are doing this podcast to really try to help provide guidance and help because people are stressed out, you know, it's a behavior analyst job market right now and do your earlier Point Casey you said hey I was The Clinical Director position they're paying me great money. That's awesome. I am not prepared to be able to engage in all these activities that are needed in order for me to successfully execute this job and I see that a lot and I live in California. And this is you know, I call California Ground Zero have the highest concentration of behavior analyst in the world. We account for 30% of all dcda jobs man data in the country and that's based on burning glass data that the DAC be has provided me is to really really Fascinating and so we see often is that you know different agencies will maybe you know telling behavior analyst like oh I'll pay you another $5,000 on another $10,000 because of more than from another agency because that bcba credential has become synonymous with being able to bill the highest rate through Behavioral Health Care in our country. And now of course, we have all 50 states have passed some form of autism Insurance mandates. And so this is created. I think this environment where there are You know kind of competing conditions these people to make employment choices, but one really really great resource, and I don't know if you keep you have experience with this article David Cox who actually used to work for me and now he's doing his postdoc at Johns Hopkins wrote a great article or he was a lead author an article about how do you choose an ethical place to work? Like what are indices of a place that you think would be a great place that's going to provide you with appropriate supervision. That's really going to help you enhance your clinical skills, and I would really encourage people. People that are listening to this podcast to read that. It's a you know, thought oh my God, okay. In August and I was like bro. This is amazing. It's really cool. Great. We need to disseminate this much much more and I think the ongoing thing in the field I'm you know talking with Ryan O'Donnell talking with them Ryan saying from sitecore and you and just the dissemination of our field in general especially to the newer be cvas and sharing, you know experience but also like I think the most important thing is, okay. You're a bcba. You just became when you have those letters like you were saying but the most important thing is that you are providing quality and unethical care to your clients. Okay? Yes. So so if you don't know how to conduct a VB map, if you don't know how to do a functional assessment because in your coursework you may have touched on it, but you may not know and in your supervision you may or may not have gotten good supervision enough to do that. You need to be honest and upfront to your clients you It to them. This is my soapbox. Okay. Yeah, I owe it to them to say to your employer to say I need a little bit of help in this before. I feel comfortable taking this on and I'm saying this just in my own world is that if you don't and if you just go through life and go through your field and go through your career just practicing outside of your scope of Competency. It's going to come back and bite you in the ass. I need you to listen up as this this is my soapbox. I told you but I'm serious. Yes, it's very important to go out. So what I do and what I found myself doing as a newbie CBA is first accepting my you know areas that I may not be fully competent in honoring the areas that I do feel comfortable in I know and Sarah mentioned this a lot is soft skills are very very important. They are not taught in, you know, your bcba program and know having those soft skills being able to connect with families connect with clients, you know, take your bcba hat off for a second. And be able to you know connect with people is really really important and not being so I'm just bcba and these are my terms and you don't practice within my guidelines blah blah blah, but soft skills are really really important to have and all that. Wasn't the pass this exam and so a lot of people tend to be very protocol driven with the clinical treatment that they choose to recommend for the populations that they work with and so the it breeds kind of this rigidity and I think it's not from a bad place. It's from a place of not wanting to screw up. I mean Behavior analysts are the most will govern people I know because they don't want to make us the steak. But let me tell you just now that you can't you can't establish a positive therapeutic. Ship and an article that I will reference that. I am obsessed with forever for the rest of my life. Is this article by Bridget Taylor Linda LeBlanc and was an octagon Compassionate Care and the whole idea of establishing a positive therapeutic relationship. You're going to have people that are going to be less likely to engage in Behavior analytic and interventions. And so what I'm trying to say in a very Salient way is if you're an asshole people won't want to work with you which means that people that really Really need to give her analytic services to help change their lives are not going to get them. So don't do that. So you need to lash Tague pair with your stakeholders pair with your clients. That is first and foremost, you need to go out and be like I am, you know, say you're going to a school. You know, that's a choreo has an amazing podcast. I listened to he did one on his own. It was like No gasps just like top 11 reasons of like how to not be an asshole basically going in Tuscaloosa. He was awesome. He's great. It was really talking about, you know, you're going into a school. You're going into a home you they the parents and the teachers that have been with this student or child. They know more about their client than you. Do. You cannot go in there and say well as a behavior analyst I'm going to change X y&z, you need to go in there with an open mind and say I am, you know, I am here to take lead from you. I want to see you tell me what you need. You tell me what is happening. I'm not going to come in here and be the magician right? I am just a clinician and I am here to help you and support you and going in I've noticed going in for me. I thank God I have I'm a really good, you know people person. I think people like me. I like I come off, you know parents and families really love me and love my support and and again, I may not know everything that is behavior analytic with all the stuff in this and that and no one knows. Everything no one knows everything. the amount of expertise and understanding of Concepts and being able to practice those Concepts and I think what is lacking for a lot of behavior analysts is being able to be given, you know quality supervision using a behavior skills training model so they can really practice those competencies have feedback on it and then demonstrate them again and one of the reasons, I believe that the clinicians in my practice at Ste were so successful is that we were obsessed obsessed with being in through revision and always working on iterating our training and supervision models make it better and more systematic and more fun in that cost a lot of money in my business and where I see people really cutting corners and behavior analysis and I don't care if you're a non-profit or for-profit. I think a lot of people draw these arbitrary lines that have your nonprofit. That means you're good. If your for-profit that means you're bad that doesn't exist. There's crappy people everywhere and there's awesome people everywhere. But where I think it will cut corners and behavior analytic organizations is not providing enough ongoing training support supervision and professional development and that to me is the worst thing that you can do in your business. You have to run a business model where you prioritize ongoing training because that means that you're prioritizing clinical outcomes and clinical excellence and we are nothing if we are not obsessed with what we're doing in terms of our outcomes and what's happening to them. Recipients of our service. We are Human Service profession. What's the one thing that we want to the number? One thing that we want to do when behavior analysis is focused on behaviors of social significance and we can never lose sight of that ever agreed and I think that my one thing I've learned is and I've seen it in a ton of companies. I've heard it from a ton of my cohorts for my Master's program is the lack of supervision, especially that you become a PCB and you're like boom go take a case load. You're done. Please handle all these very high needs cases and you can maybe check in with us, but probably not because we're busy and here you go. And that's what I'm really good at address that the hold the printhead quickly and Hawks article again is really drilling down pre you know job acceptance during the interview process when you're looking into work in an organization, like what the heck are you guys doing for professional development and they even have a table in their article. That's really Specific you need to be asking questions about how will this organization support my access to behavior analytic literature. How does this organization support development through continuing access to professional conferences. What are the systems in place to help employees engage in ethical behavior? All of them. There's that they really system systematized this which I think is is fantastic and I dig a lot of new Behavior analysts don't know that these are things they should be attending to and instead what they are attending to is. Oh agis, the a is offering me 10,000 more dollars. Person agency being and I'm telling you right now. It's not about the money and if you do a really kick butt job and you're an amazing behavior analyst you will earn money. Don't worry about it. This is a growing profession and the supply and demand curve and especially the demand for our services isn't going away anytime soon. But what will happen is if we have crappy Clinical Services and cried to clinicians. We will lose our ability to access payer dollars from either commercial funding or Medicaid funding or school district and for our services become ineffective because we're doing a real crappy job with implementation that will absolutely happen. So I see it and I feel like you're describing. I'm like over here like shaking my head nodding my head like that is it is and you know what I actually so I've been very hesitant and scared about leaving my job in finding New one and you know all these things and I'm just actually sitting here kind of being like I'm going to actually cut myself on the fucking back because I'm choosing to not take the money. The money is not worth it. You guys I'm telling you if you're an ethical moral person, right and you want to deliver the best ABA. I understand that things get busy and you may have a big caseload, but if you are not feeling that way then you need to really find out what place is going to align with your moral and ethical. Code because if not it will eat you alive. I spent two months of my life and this is nothing to say but my company it's not saying anything about their moral. It was it wasn't even like that. It was just that I felt so imposter e like syndrome where I knew I just wasn't there. I knew I didn't have that in me. No money in the world could have changed my mind. I had to and it's for the best of the company. It's for the best of me and I will continue to seek out I have amazing professors where I'm from that run clinics that I have. Us to get great mentorship. I am making sure that I find that next step in my career. So I get this like, you know, I listening to Sarah's intro about her people that she had that is so amazing and a lot of the people I talked to in the field have had really great supervision and mentorship from these people in the field, but no they're frigging doing and that is something that I want all of you guys listening. I know a lot of our listeners Sarah are people studying for the exam. We've a lot of people that are already be cba's but our Crux is because Run study notes APA is teaching people how to study for your boards and it's so much more than that, which is why we develop a podcast to kind of ya run off that and say now you pass or you didn't pass whatever it is. How are you going to also become a good behavior analyst and related to every single day of your life because that's what it is every single day. Right? So everything you do is behavior analytic. Yes, right. This is a way that you approach a living and the way you approach your life. I mean, it's not an Autism intervention. Jane it's the way she wrote your worldview. Yeah the way to post the world view and sure is so all right real quick. I have a few not real quick, but I have just I'm looking at my questions. I've got 17 questions. I've asked you one. So I'm in right now is that Establish an operation. I was in a state of deprivation before now I have her I need to make sure I'm evoking and emitting all the behaviors. I want to while I have her. So first one and this is just a kind of a personal one but not you know super personal but so my favorite thing about you is that you're you're so true to yourself and your style and people ask me and Lee out a lot on how you know, you guys are so unapologetically don't give a fuck kind of thing, which we do and every day I stress about everything that My mouth is it ethical? Is it this so have is that something you have struggled with being in the public eye and being in like the field and following the ethics code and all that stuff is that have you ever encountered things like that? Yeah. I mean definitely I have like a slogan for myself sometimes everyone so I'll put it on my Instagram profile and I really think that is true. I say big hair cuz if you guys know me, I've naturally curly hair usually straighten it when I do professional presentations, but right now my fly was rocking like I'm in like to zip codes with my hair. So I say big hair big Hoops because I was were big hoop earring big house. Yeah. I'm not for everybody because I'm not and that's okay. I am not for everybody. I definitely I think challenge established Norms of what you might typically expect from a woman in leadership in Behavior Analysis. But what I think has been really exciting about our field, especially in the last five to six years is really starting to attend two different types of voices. I am so proud of some of the work that we're doing on cultural competencies, you know cultural humility, whatever you want to call it, but really understanding that. Wow, we have some we need to fix some things in our field in terms of how we approach working with different types of populations how we approach working with different colors different races different religions how we talk to each other. How do we approach working with each other when were coming from different backgrounds and I have been very excited to see some people coming up in this Field and and really being given a platform to talk about how important that is because we're in this kind of divisive environment right now in the United States and it's sometimes just so ugly. And again, I can't help but think that we are in a prime position is behavior analyst to help not only change that narrative amongst our own building culture really change that narrative nationally and to really good tools of understanding because it's all about information understanding and so I you know, I definitely have had Days where I feel that people have minimized me. I'm also a master's level behavior analyst and not a PhD and in our field, you know, Academia is I think more respected than clinicians that have been kind of toiling and practice but I will also say that I am a very proud Masters level behavior analyst because guess what we count for over 80% of certificate. We are the field we are the field and so I will not feel that I've lesser then because I do not have a PhD I have over 20 years of experience in 15 years running a company. Any that I was proud of every single day. I don't feel bad about that. And I do not you are so amazing with the company. I mean when I first again the heard that podcast in heard you talk about how you started this in your kitchen frickin kitchen and in school systems and then you went through the whole Insurance changes and you built this huge amazing company and you brought you my favorite thing about you sir. I don't think I've ever told you this but when I listen to a podcast, you said we I don't care. If you know if you can recite to me everything from Cooper everything the task list, if you're not fun, we're not hiring. I know we're not hiring. You know, it's not have that. Yeah. Yeah, if you can't if you can't build rapport and just like the Goofy and play and hang out you're useless to me. I can teach you the technology and we have all of the training rubrics and protocols and you know, the PowerPoint and the feedback we've all of that stuff. But a fundamentally you're just a person that no one else wants to be around and we're in a human service industry. Excuse me not happening. No, thank you. But I was going to make one more point about kind of my Persona. I will say that I've benefited tremendously from mentoring from Pat fireman. He has become someone that I just enjoy spending time with tremendously and I'm actually going to be able to see him. I'll be in Boystown. Next month could be my second trip there and I was there for the first time last year and I cried. Because it was so transformative. It was so great to hear him and listened to the work that he's doing and the family teaching model that they use their that's based out of work that was done at University of Kansas is amazing studied under authentic and he has written a lot of different articles and I'm sure you guys, you know, maybe you have reference them or having it in some of your classes and prepping people to take the damn. Terms of dissemination front of the room heel-toe some really nice research that they've done that has nothing to do with autism which I find really fascinating. But his whole thing is you got to figure out who you are on stage and you just got to run with it, like people can read out so that are not authentic and are trying to be something that they're not and then I realized you know, who am I I am the girl with the big hair and the big mouth and I love tennis shoes and part of it also is because I'm a middle-aged mother and my back hurt. I'm not wearing heels on stage anymore because I'm freaking back hurts and I'm not going to be in back pain while I present and I also like hip-hop and I have a lot of other interests outside of the urinalysis to and I think once I allowed myself to freedom to embrace me fully that's when I became a better speaker because I wasn't worried about the little stuff and I think in terms of like the ethical code is something that I continue to study and think about all the time. I read and research all the time. I have conversations with people in our field. All the time, but what I think everyone needs to understand is if you're so afraid to take the first step that means you're doing nothing and that's why I really feel like we haven't achieved Skinner's, you know, whole vision of really Behavior lies in the world because people are afraid to take the first step. They're afraid to put themselves out there. They're afraid to make a mistake and it's like guess what I have news flash for you. We all make mistakes and we all do stupid crap all the time and you're gonna live through it and if you never take a chance, you're never going to know how freaking amazing you can be and so I had to look free myself. Well from those things and I had to free myself from caring about people that are hating on me and just say this is my message. I think that I can be someone that can really help bring the field together because we really need it right now. I think I could be someone you know that can help connect people and create relationships and Mentor opportunities because we really need a right now and so I was like, okay stop what I'm doing. And so that's what I've been doing and you've been crushing the Sam since that day. Okay, whatever day it. You realize that you were gonna do this and I think it was like a it was a process over time. It was like I woke up one day and I was like, oh my gosh. Hello, like hashtag Flawless. I'm doing this. It was more, you know recessive experiences and part of it also is with fluency, right? I mean Pat writes a lot about when you're doing those, you know, mastering the front of the room the idea that you are preparing for what you're talking about. You know how to make your point frequently, you know how to be emphatic about it, you know how to make sure you have the audience really attend to what you're saying and so part of Of this is also just confidence built over multiple, you know exposures to a things that I find really scary. But B also the reinforcement that comes from speaking from that audience from having people laugh at my jokes from having people, you know, clap for me when I'm done and you again you just really build that so in C, but you have to be willing to take the first step you have to really do it and you just can't be afraid because are you going to do perfectly no and again guess what? No one's going to die in the Earth is going to still be able to rotate on its axis and the sun will rise and set. The next day so it's fine. But just do it. There's so many light bulb moments and so many amazing quotes that you're having this episode. I can't wait to have Alan and I go through this with people right now. I hope you're sitting on the edge of your seat motivated to just be the best behavior in ways that you can be and seek the most amazing mentorship you can seek and and you know for me, I'm same thing. I okay. I've got to say this one quick story because it's kind of funny and it's like I didn't I Was like should I tell her so I not tell her like so I went to but again keeping real and honest and who you are right? I went to Georgia to see Sarah at the be his business Builders Behavior conference. I convinced my work I had to go I had to do what they had to pay for it. I had the guy to go. I got to see her go down out. So we are Facebook messaging. I don't know if you remember this, but the plan was and I was like to can't believe she's responding to me. Oh my gosh, like we're going In the gym at 4:30 in the morning. Yeah. Yeah. I know you girlfriend. I'm sure you were and I so my sister and lives in Georgia and she I had never been she's my stepsister, but I've never been down there a Seer. So I end up going out with her and she's showing me out we're you know, indulging a little too much and I want is a fun place. I love that City. Oh my gosh. It's so much fun. I had never been of course. I wake up at 5:00 and I feel like total dog shit. I'm like I'm letting down my idol right now. I can't go I'm gonna die and then I I totally pussied out and didn't come and introduce myself because I was it was out of my comfort zone a I again so I you know did not go meet Sarah I didn't but our universes have now connected us back to where I am, you know put myself out there to do this podcast and say I know this scares me every single time I do it. It's something that's out of my comfort zone but I feel so incredibly passionate about and so now Sarah's here and I'm actually going to text Ava and I will introduce myself and we will meet on that time what the universe is there for a reason and I just I had to tell her I'm like girlfriend. I was way too hungover to come see you at the gym. You're a bad ass all the time. Yeah, I mean it again part of it is I travel a lot and the only way that I have learned to really kind of condition my body to be able to function in a lot of different time zones is to keep my rigid, you know workout schedule and it's also a really nice way for me to be present at to where I am at that time. I work out to clear my head. I work out to listen to my favorite hip-hop music I work out. So then I might reinforce our after my workout is a Starbucks cold brew coffee. Anyone that knows me knows that like my one Vice in life is like caffeine, you know, do I eat too many carbs? No, do I like drinking heavily? Not really, but caffeine is my jam and so Get my work out and then I get my Starbucks cold brew coffee everyone at my local Starbucks near my gym knows me and they already have it ready for me every morning and I have to order it because they are amazing. So yeah, I mean it was nothing. Yeah it is and that's just been something that I've had to do in order to just keep saying what I'm in like four or five different time zones and like I do week period which you know happens frequently, but I'm not I girl I also think it's fun to have a good time especially cuz Atlanta, I mean the ATL place. He's so yeah, you're going to get to hang out with me on Friday, October 11. So this is a really exciting event. It's the ABA business boot camp that the both the behavior analyst Leadership Council for which I'm the director of development and Texas the Texas Association for Behavior. Analysis are partnering to bring to Houston and we're going to be at the Royal Sonesta Hotel, which is lovely and will also be the hotel where the technology conference will be taking place in April of 2020. Just FYI and Really fun line up. I'll be talking about recruiting and retaining talent and then but so who's the president of the DLC and one of my mentors and one of my most favorite women and is also a behavior analyst she also has an adult son with autism. It's going to be talking about operational expertise and we have Lori Market than Lindsay Smith from Texana Center, which is fantastic. It's been tested organization of the Houston talking about HIPAA compliance client confidentiality and they were going to end of the day with what have I very close friends Ryan O'Donnell Who is going to be talking about leveraging your business and marketing on social media and how to do it from an ethical perspective and I think Ryan is a really great Exemplar of that someone that's really making moves and behavior analysis. He's really has his own style. I really like the questions. I was asking the people that he's putting in front of his, you know social media, but I think a lot of behavior analytic organizations don't know how to leverage that outlet to really increase their ability to serve more kids and really to attract the top 10 It and really be able to tell their story and make sure that parents, you know can work with these wonderful organizations that are doing good work. So it's going to be an awesome day. We're going to have a panel at the end. We'll probably go to have a happy hour after that because let's be honest. If you're sitting in a room for six hours, you know might need to have like some crudite and a cocktail at the end of the day. So it's going to be a day that I'm really excited about and I know that you already said that you're going to put the information in the notes for the podcast, but we have space available. You'll be able to earn 68 AC/DC he's including to ethics E's and I'll be there. So hello coming down. You guys are stupid. If you're missing out again, Ryan O'Donnell Sarah trotman eslinger and the other two. I actually watched in your video the blbl D. Is it like I see tall and I'm telling you I would never mess with Suzanne. She runs a tremendous organization and Connecticut Milestones Behavior Services. She serves on every board in Behavior Analysis. She's been the recipient of the Jerry Show. Advocacy award from a PBA. She's been in the btb board insert every single acronym here, but she's awesome. And she's really really dedicated to help supporting early career behavior analyst just like I am and so she's wonderful and those Lindsay and Lori are just Ian's of HIPAA client confidentiality really building an environment and really encouraging businesses to conduct themselves in a way that really promotes confidentiality and compliance at the Forefront of your organization, which is every a be organization's responsibility, especially for drive down Healthcare dollars. And so they're going to be here and they're super excited to talk. So it's a really nice combination of people that have experiences from different states experiences of different populations experiences in different service settings. And so to me I mean I curated this group. I really wanted to have a well-rounded group and I believe we have that at I think it'll also just be dynamic and inspirational so I'm very excited for it. No, Sarah, you definitely nailed it when you got this group together when I saw the lineup so excited. I knew I had to go there and I'm coming. So the whole Ryan O'Donnell thing if you guys are listening here, he's actually going to be on the podcast next week which are so incredibly excited for would have two of the text of a This boot camp speakers on the podcast before the actual event. Yeah. It is a huge it is so exciting. They are you two are just doing everything that I want to do and everyone was like, I just want to get out of New Hampshire. I told my husband I'm like we are he just thank God, you know find a supportive partner find someone who believes in you believes in your dreams side note, but when I left my job and you know, I'm gonna find my you know, Next thing but for a month or two, I'm going to go travel to Texas to see them. I'm going to go to Massachusetts to see Ryan at the Tate behavioral convert conference with Matt. Scoria and a bunch of other Megan Miller. There's a bunch of things that I just want to do as and I think that I think what my thing I line to his philosophical doubt like I just want to go out and find out everything and what is the most like, you know, what is happening in our field? I want to be in an up on everything so I can be the best behavior analysts and learn from these people that have the experience that I may not get in New Hampshire. So if you're someone out there listening and you're like I need something I need some fire under my ass. I need some more inspiration. I'm telling you guys this is conferences are the way to go when I went to see her in Georgia. That was my fire under my ass to realize X Y and Z. I do know this. I don't know this I'm you know, Medicaid fraud Medicaid this like I needed more support. I learned that from that conference. I never would have I may have started my own business and been like Holy shit, I'm not ready for this and I learned that I learned so much more invaluable information from that and only to continue to grow by going to these conferences and becoming you know part of the movement. We that's what I think the whole thing like you and Ryan both disseminating a ba and a real life way to everyone is what we're all trying to do. Yes, but I would also say this is something that's really important to me. I know that sometimes Comfort dependents can be a financial barrier for Inland and so what I've been really trying to do both with my work with a behavior analyst Leadership Council and I also work for the California Association for Behavior Analysis, so I used to be the of the past president of colaba and then once I transitioned out of Ste II know in a paid development consultant for them and one of the things that we've really been working on I've been working with macular the executive director and the board of directors is offering continuing education opportunities via webinars, we're doing that with our booties right now in our next RBT webinar. Is October 16th was dr. Megan Heisman and it's all about building Rapport establishing yourself as a reinforcer with clients. It's free. I'm going to vote live do a zoom webinar live and I'll do it Facebook live. I mean, I'm like totally getting into like my technological nerdy self. I did it last month with or this month earlier. This month was Tyra Sellers, and I was just like sweating bullets, but it was great. No, you killed it. I watched it you were so good. But won't we were recorded we save it on the cowl the Facebook page. I also created a box folder of all supporting documents and articles. I'm going to do the same thing for Meghan. We're going to have another webinar on our Vic use how to ensure that you're receiving appropriate supervision that's going to be with dr. Ellison bickleman in November. Also catalog that has this great webinar that's going to be happening on October 18th, and this is for be CPAs with dr. Rachel Taylor. Dr. Justin leaf on conducting research and applied setting Factory. We for Calvin members if you're a non-member and you won't see he's I think it was charging like 25 bucks. But I just I just want to say that I love the conference's. I agree that there's really nothing that takes the place of having that in-person interaction. But I also understand sometimes especially for people that have young children at home, especially if their financial barriers, especially if there's other competing kind of contingencies on your time, but there are ways to continue to make sure that you're obtaining that professional development that you need to do to vote both. We could be a CB professional and ethical compliance code, but also really to make you feel more Happy as a professional to continue to obtain inspiration to continue to allow you to meet and understand you people to expose you to different components of behavior analysis. So I think it's really important for anyone that's involved in leadership in this field to ensure that we're not just doing conferences that were really hitting it on multiple in multiple ways. And I think Brian does a really good job of that as well. She does he absolutely does one of the things and I'm so happy that you kind of circled around to that because I am living in New Hampshire. It's hard for me to travel all these places and that you know, I'm lucky enough. Go out to Texas for this one and mass is right in the my backyard I can drive but I've done a bunch of conferences and streaming online. Thanks to Ryan O'Donnell. I did this skills assessment conference online where I think I got 16 CEUs. It was a two-day conference with Megan Miller Ryan O'Donnell a few other amazing people and I was able to sit in my own house actually after the fact to because it was during my work day. So I couldn't take off time at that point. It was pre-recorded and you had a month to finish it. And answer the questions and learn and you know, that's amazing to get almost half your CEUs and it was very affordable. I'm telling you like I think there's a hundred and thirty bucks like very affordable and that is again disseminating EBA. It should be open and available to so many people which is where I think and I hope and I can see we're all going. Yes. Oh, yes one last question. I know that we're already at like almost an hour, but I could sit here for the rest of my life and talk to you so I can't have a drink with you could text Ava I think one of the most important things for our listeners as newbie cba's, if you could give them any piece of advice as a new bcba thinking about starting their own business or even just starting in any career like level, what would you say if I could be one piece of advice would be to seek out a business that you can work for where you will obtain tremendous mentorship and support and not just from the behavior analytic way but also just as a person and that's one thing that was really important to me when I work at Spectrum Center and why I moved to California from Washington State when I was 22 years old is because I interviewed it spectrum and It Tyra and I realized that she was someone that was going to be able to really support all of me. She was going to be able to support my ongoing Behavior analytic development in my clinical skills. She was going to be able to support me as a friend. She was going to be able to support me to do great things. And and that's what's so critical. And honestly, I think that really helps to guide and make me part of the person. I am now and I actually have never told her that and I really should so hopefully she'll listen to his podcast. A store. I'll just send her the podcast as she can listen to it and realize the kind of role that she played and again, I don't want to suggest that new behavior analyst can't start businesses. You can frankly do whatever you want. And there's a lot of States word that make it very easy to start new businesses. But to me really being able to work within a group that's going to support your professional development that's going to support you as a person that's going to ensure that you can have a work-life balance that's going to give you rich opportunities. To engage in professional development that our conferences and webinars and meetings and what I'm going through provision and access to articles that's that's the stuff and you want to work with someone that you like and I wrote a something I think on a LinkedIn post. I don't know a couple months ago and I said I just made this decision in my life, especially after selling my business that I loved so much after 15 years and working for people that I cared about so deeply that I will never work for someone that I just don't think is the best thing ever. Ever so that's what I would encourage for young Behavior analysts is find someone to work with you that's going to guide you that's going to care for you that's going to grow you that has your back and you will never regret that decision. You will never regret if you took ten or fifteen thousand dollars less dead be an organization that is doing good things and encourages you to do good things that is time that you are investing in yourself and that has no dollar value. Everyone out there right now listening. I hope you're feeling the same way. I'm feeling pretty friggin. Good with Sarah's advice. I'm telling you your this is just so important for newbies because I am one I'm telling you I am I'm almost using this as a therapy session tell me what I need and you are so right and I hope that Tyra does listen and you know you yes remote this podcast, but most importantly the in I'm so excited that you came on to say this because it's something that I've wanted to talk about a lot on the podcast is as we're kind of we kind of kept the podcast very wide to draw in listeners, but want to also bring it back into Behavior Analysis actual like And work and how important getting your supervision and getting mentors and learning and understanding and not just thinking that you know everything because you have those four letters after your name. It is crucial to providing quality super quality Care Quality everything to the people that we are serving and Sarah you just I mean, thank God for you that you came up and you are a Pioneer female rock star representing neither analysis. I'm telling you. You are crushing life everyday. Hope you feel that way. I don't think I honestly like I don't feel that we're all the time. I mean like none of us do right, like people like, oh keep it 100 like let's be real. Sometimes you're like, I'm keeping it in about 5% and that's what I can do today. But what I try to focus on is again, like I try to keep in contact with people that I find reinforcing as much as possible. I try and make sure that I continue to challenge myself to grow and to learn and to look at the feedback into you absorb everything and then I try to give myself a little Grace when I'm having an off day and maybe I'm going to have one of those petite vanilla skills at Starbucks and I don't care and it's fine and I'll do a couple extra minutes on the treadmill, but I think you know and again to kind of reference Bridget Taylor Linda block and was a no 6 article on really engaging in Compassionate Care One, very clear point that they make is that you can't provide Compassionate Care for anyone else unless you do it for yourself first and so do that That care for yourself. I was a nerd and I'm glad you said that another question is how do you do it girl you are this collab but Casper your blcu were Ste. You have two amazing teenage children. You're in the gym working out that sexy ass all the time. Like so thank you for saying that allowing yourself the grace and compassion to serve yourself first because you cannot serve anybody else. You do not fill your cup. First know if you're burnt out if you're exhausted, you know, you're not going to be great for anybody and that no matter what discipline that you work in if you got a really really take care of yourself and do the things my father always uses this expression. He's like Sarah. Are you choosing things that are life-giving to you that gives you life and I'm and that's a you make a really nice touch point for me. When I'm looking at different things that I want to do in life. Is this a is life-giving to me. I'm all-in Meaning and how do you operationally defined life-giving? Right? Like I would say that it makes me happy it brings me. Joy, it's something that I have a strong eo4 if it's not like giving no, thank you next strong EO baby establishing operation for that shit because if it's not serving you if it's not filling your cup if it's not creating you to feel powerful and in your own person in space than What it's a fuck now, so thank you very much Grande. Thank you next thank you next. Yes. Absolutely. Well, I'm glad that you and I rocked out this podcast by ourselves. I we miss Leah so much first know every episode with just me, but I think that I had such a strong guest today that it carried it right through amazingly Sarah you had so many amazing touch points. Light bulb moments Goosebump moments. I can't thank you enough for coming out and talking with us today. Well, you're most welcome. And I'm so glad I did I told my kids before I started talking to you and like if you guys make one sound there's going to be some major consequences and they have been quiet as little church mice. So I had to give him some reinforcements for letting me take an hour out of an hour out of their playtime with me to be able to do this and this is great. I mean, I love the stuff that you guys are doing. I want to encourage Edge you to continue doing this even to the extent that we could wrap our arms around young hungry behavior analyst support them help them grow. I'm all about it. I've all in well, thank you so much for supporting us and believing in us because this is exactly what we want to create more amazing ethical powerful behavior analyst in this field. That's our entire Mission. We love you anyone else out there that needs to follow Sarah go find her. She's He's unreal, you will be a complete life changer. Once you find her go to Texas and I couldn't see us. How about a cocktail was that anyway, we'll end with thinking Sarah and also, you know where to go to subscribe, you know, all that stuff your bitches podcast Behavior, which is Facebook as always. So Sarah you're gonna have to end this with me because we got snot here. So I say I love you and you've been mean it. Okay, as always. Love you. Hey guys, it's Lia at Dan Casey. We just want to take a second to let you know that if you're thinking of being a millennial like us and starting your own podcast, there is a way you can do your show without having to become an audio editing and production wizard because guess what we don't know shit with that, but we Have Alan that pretty easy podcast who helped us get started. He records are shows. He post them. He adds awesome awesome music and cool shit when we don't even know what he's doing. He sends us teaser episodes. He doesn't all we just sit here and friggin talk. We shoot the shit and you can record from home your office the park a bathroom stall at work. It doesn't matter. He provides a complete podcast Studio. All you need is a microphone and you're good Alan caters to your schedule and gives you a producer for your show at your beck and call he has been super flexible with our schedule whenever we need him. We were Google Calendar. We just booked him and he does all the hard work. It's like so incredibly easy. That's why it's probably called pretty easy podcast. So be heard and have some fun podcasting like us go to pretty easy podcast. dot-com today
On episode 17 we have a new bitch in town. Liat had #lupusproblems and was not on this episode but not to worry we had one BADASS QUEEN in the field of Behavior Analysis fill in. We talked all about what it means to be a new BCBA, how important quality supervision is, and how crucial it is to find mentors and companies who match your morals and values. Sarah is a real, raw, and relatable BCBA who has over 20 years experience in the field. If you are feeling like you need some motivation or direction in your career, you are a new BCBA trying to figure out where to go, or you just want to hear some bad ass b’s talking about how to #hustle and be successful, then this episode is for you!! I promise this episode will not disappoint. Show Notes:   How to Identify Ethical Practices in Organizations Prior to Employment by: Matthew T. Brodhead1 & Shawn P. Quigley2 & David J. Cox3  Compassionate Care in Behavior Analytic Treatment: Can Outcomes be Enhanced by Attending to Relationships with Caregivers? By: Bridget A. Taylor1 & Linda A. LeBlanc2 & Melissa R. Nosik3  Get your ticket to TXABA: https://new.txaba.org/events/businessbootcamp2019/ Become a Patron and support the sh*t out of us: : https://www.patreon.com/behaviorbitchespodcast 