Welcome to inevitable change the podcast about all things growth change and cyclical systems in the natural and emotional. Well, I'm Johanna and I'm George today. We're talking permaculture. Hey, yeah, we're going to explore permaculture concepts for permaculture is why we so fascinated by it and how you can learn a bit more about it. Oh also very exciting this episode contains our first interview. We did it with a friend because when nervous we're nervous little children. Yeah, and we were all for that it to be very honest. Very awkward. It's great. He was very nice patient with us there. Yeah, if you enjoy that but before we get to the You let's chat a little bit about what permaculture is and the history and such. So yeah. So permaculture is permaculture is what most people seem to find it difficult to Define. Hmm. Well we had to do that now at me. Yeah, I guess we should start like, you know, where did it actually come from this entire concept? Where is it from? Yeah, so it's from the 70s by Bill Mollison of David Holmgren originated in Australia and at the time it Originally described a design system and this design system was as a response to industrialization agricultural intensification dependence on non-renewable resources nor the damaging effects caused by this lifestyle and this and the choices that we make so permaculture offered a nature-based cyclical an alternative way of living the environmentally damaging culture that we call Modern Life. Okay, I guess I guess at the beginning the term. Itself was like permaculture stood for permanent agriculture. But then by the 80s it also Incorporated permanent culture. So it broadened to like also sustainable human living as well as the sustainable agricultural system thinking because the first it was like a like a just design principle framework, I guess for agricultural systems. Yeah, and I guess like that sort of change in a shift from being purely a land of a system like designed. System to something that encompasses everything it sort of marks that change originally. They realized they wanted it to just be a Land Based system. But as they try to start to implement designs they realized actually oh, well, everything is enslaved. It's like holistic way of looking at things and that's one of the pieces of ham cultures. It's recognizing, you know, like it's like a holistic way of thinking and a heuristic we're designing and I've heard permaculture referred to as many different things like designing methods. Some people call it a field of study. Yeah, all sorts of things like that. So it's very Broad and multifaceted. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about the core ethics of permaculture because there's three of those and there are earthcare people care and fair share. So carefully Earth. I mean, it's pretty self-explanatory, you know look after the Earth and so you can flourish I guess because we're so utterly dependent on Earth. Yeah. It's like all sorts of Of things like yeah. So so your system or like whatever you're designing should look after the Earth and also look after the people and it's like the basic basically care for people is is recognizing his core permaculture really is a human based human based design system recognizing that we need to get something out of something in order to actually have value for and yeah, it is talking about putting humans sort of Moving them slightly from the center but keeping them as a focus as well. Yes absolutely keeping like the Earth and you know being regenerative and that's what fair share comes in doesn't it? Because because fair share is kind of the it refers to the people but also to the Earth, you know, so it would include principles like make it like making compost for example put waste back into the system like recycle it in some way and it reflects that basically don't take more than you need to so these are these are the cool like ethics. I guess. This is the 3/4. There's also 12 principles the 12 principles of permaculture. We're going to briefly talk a little bit about each of them. Just so you know what they are. I'm holding the Greeks overview. They're all interrelated. Anyway, so you may find that some of the principles are the totally overlap. There's the lapping complete wait. This sounds like a rehash of this one, but that's the point because they are all interrelated. Nothing is taken as a single thing. So yeah, the first principle is Observe and interact and in any kind of designing or planning you need to carefully observe beforehand, you know, it's important you not not you don't just observe from a distance. You should also practically interact within a system, you know sense things feel things smell things smell the You know have first-hand experience of places of culture and and people as well if you're designing social system, it's important to talk to people that you actually going to be working with or designing it for ya. So being purposeful and mindful and interactions whilst also carefully observing pattern details and other natural things, you know, they should allow you to understand problems potentials and how everything fits together in a design. So the In principle is capture and store energy which in itself is quite self-explanatory. It's basically about capturing any form of energy such as like sunlight and then holding onto it for whenever it's needed and this can be as like renewable energies, but it could also be keeping a winter squash stored until you want to eat it in January. For example, yeah, of course the yeah. I'm excited. Clue, well, basically you got to be careful what types of energy you're going to be using and in that sense also use them wisely because non renewable energies can be used in a specific way so that they are actually useful, you know in a very long term. Anyway another way of looking at it could be like insulating your house and using solar panels, but all of these things kind of linked to another principle, which is a principle 6, but we'll get to that in a bit. it Yeah, so principle number three is obtained a yield and I guess this basically just means you should get something out of it for what you put in, you know, you would a subjective it could be anything from obtaining food from a community garden or socializing and building relations with members of the community garden. I mean, it could even just be that you're going to go and sit under the tree and read a book and enjoy the enjoy the calm spot in the garden. It can be anything but in the fridge The food Garden, you know, it's important to rely on a diverse range of plants in La have a polyculture of plants to ensure reliable yield, you know, one thing fails then you at least have something else. Yeah and an another senses. I guess it's also about like evaluating successes and failures that we can obtain a balance yield sustained us and those around us also staying within ecological resource limits. The basically demand a reassessment of what efficiency is And how what how what and how much we consume? Yeah, the fourth one is applies apply self-regulation and accept feedback. So while you're designing got to ensure that you recognize any like a positive or negative feedback that occurs in the system. So take notice of them make changes accordingly. Basically the principles about trying to reflect and catch like negative outcomes before they expand. Spiral out of control then leading to something far worse in the future, which is what is happening right now in the world ha ha anyway, um, it could also be about ensuring that a system or even like yourself maintains a positive feedback leading to then like easier positive outcomes, but like in the individual, it could mean looking at feedback and realizing like effects of your actions. So applying like self-regulation could be responding to to I don't know like consumption of resources like food just generally the you know or energy as well, but at its core it's really just about constant reflection and like evaluation or not necessarily constant, but at least like often enough here we are and not yeah periodical and like setting maybe half yearly or even a weekly like depends on what type of system is just like reflect on what's been going on. Like, how can we change this to make it better? Like what's been working? What hasn't been working? And just applying appropriate solution. So it's never just like this is like I don't know the most like financially effective thing to do. We don't care about anything else that's happening sort of thing. It's really about trying to take everything into consideration and looking at the bigger picture and then making changes all the time like nothing is ever set. Like there is no this is what the system is and that's not going to change because everything is constantly changing. Yeah, I guess it also is about like not having a one-size-fits-all approach. Exactly. Yeah, it gets to what tailoring it to what the feedback is, you know, definitely. But yeah, I guess the fifth principle is use and valuable resources and services and as we've spoken about renewable energies before that's a perfect example in this Principle as well, you know using the Sun and wind and other renewable energy sources over fossil fuels that, you know are going to run out pretty soon. Which people very soon and yeah. However, it's also about realizing that you know, normally when energy sources as we said before are valuable, you know, this could be a see these this could be useful in establishing a system like moving it with giant. Yeah diggers is much easier than doing it by hand with a spade and you're only gonna do it once anyway, so you're investing energy initially into the system, which will then yield far more energy than you put in any way. So it makes sense. So that was thinking these things Through exactly absolutely necessary and it's also about not you know, if you're going to if you're going to use non renewable energy sources, like fossil fuels don't use them for anything like maintenance or anything like that. That's just that's just a bit of a waste you really value like natural resources natural materials, you know, if you're going to build anything as well so value would over plastic because plastic is never going to degrade and we have massive environmental problems because of it. So, but then again if you can recycle and you Can find ways to use it in your system because it's already there any way then that's that's fair to you know, yeah. No totally so there's so many ways of looking at this. Yeah, but I guess on the that's all talking about renewable resources, I guess for renewable serfs. So I guess for renewable services. This is like a different type of thing. This is stuff that's like passive filtration of water through a reed bed or preventing soil erosion because you have ground cover plants. Hi, it's cool. I guess this entire principle is about valuing everything that is reusable passive and long-term and it also requires that there are thoughtful interventions into natural systems because you know, if you make an intervention and something goes wrong then you know, you're putting something out of balance. It may make a problem in the future. So just be thoughtful nature knows what's best let nature take its course and value natural things over man-made Solutions as well. Okay, and six principal is produced now waste. Well, I guess in the natural world waist is not really a thing. Mmm nature nature is pretty good at cycling. It was sexy. It's like nature is sexy and cycling like think compost think like photosynthesis every every output is an input for another organism and every product reviewers away. Should actually be seen as something valuable that we can use elsewhere such as like plastic, you know, just like single-use plastic. I think at this point, you know, there could be so many ways that we can use it. I mean there is those like companies doing stuff with it, but obviously not to the extent that is necessary. But yeah, maybe maybe you just haven't found where a resource can be used yet. But at the core like producing Airways is basically Young repair rather than buying you and recapturing embodied energy in a product. If you have like a product like a computer or car. Yeah, and it's got a problem with it. You shouldn't just go and buy something new. You should try and repair it first. It's about valuing people's repair services because I mean they're not as common as they used to be because everybody seems to be able to afford new things now or products even made to the like extend that they yeah break after class also visit. Yeah exactly. That's pretty pretty so it's difficult. It's definitely difficult. But especially in like a garden system though. You can totally like compost all your plant materials, you know, well you can you can build stuff with it, you know, if your tree needs to come down because it's ill or if it's like dying whatever you can still use a lot of that. Yeah with plans. I guess it's a lot easier and in like a bigger broader scale. It might be a bit more complicated. But yeah, but it's just all about how you look at it. Really? Mmm Yeah as it is with all of these principles anyway, so principle number 7 is designing from patterns the details this is basically pretty obviously directly related to observe and interact but on a larger scale, it's about taking a step back, you know, seeing the links in the patterns that present or possible within a system for Designing them into it looking at natural patterns is important to recognize landscape patterns scales changes inside conditions functions uses Aesthetics and So on, you know in capturing these recognizing them and then looking from a larger scale in words, you'll be able to see The Wider picture it can help to see The Wider picture and then focus on areas where actions actually needed so you can spot from a distance where something is a problem area. But when you get up close to it, you might not be able to see it. The eighth principle is integrated rather than segregate so I can pronounce it. Yeah, Nicaragua. Okay. Um, so Holmgren considers the To segregate things whether in relationships all systems is a product of the reductionist scientific method where everything has to be studied individually in order to make sense of the whole thing. But like the principal is about thinking holistically. So taking like all always little things that make up the bigger thing into consideration and not separate from each other but connect them. Yeah. So integration can mean that each elements would perform many functions many functions and that the important functions are served by lots of Elements, it means that every important output you want should have many different diverse inputs. So valuing diversity and furthermore. It should be the case that the input you have chosen for the system should have as many possible users other can and this is important in capturing all the energy flows from a particular source and Valium waste product. For example, like to see chickens like chicken poop and like chicken poo poo. Yeah as the manure and then then you can use them in the garden as well as pecking like we'd see things away. I guess you Also, like eat the eggs and also the meat of the chickens like there is many ways to use animals and permaculture systems. Yeah or not use them there is where you can use mixed views on them. But yeah, that's just a typical example. I guess they have uses I mean like like you said before with the chicken poo, like if you send our chicken into a field of you know weeds or whatever they'll just look Peck way the weeds. Yeah, and then they'll also people who make it make it like an antigen which so So that's about integrating the vegetable garden and the animal Garden. You don't have them separate number nine number nine is using small and slow Solutions. So yeah, excessive and overcompensation when making Solutions is going to make you have further problems in the future. Yeah, like most usually the most energy efficient and suitably scaled solution will be the one that is going to be most appropriate. You don't want to over compensate make it too big and then you know, If used a bit too aggressive or something like that, yeah, you know what an example could be with the soil should value like slow growth of soil organic matter Garden rather than using, you know, rapid applications of mineral fertilizers that just lead to horrible negative feedback system where you're going to have to use more and more and more over time anyway, and then on top of that you'll be spraying pesticide. Yeah, exactly. It's just it's just yeah. It's just good stuff takes time. The good stuff does take time. You know, it's about valuing the most appropriate solution. The one that's actually going to work. You know, the one that's in the longer term going to work. Well in fixes it rather than plaster. Yeah, basically a plaster short-term Quick Fix solution that makes new problems as well. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that's the tenth principal use and value diversity. Well again, pretty self-explanatory system. Complex diverse components will always be healthier than a simple segregated homogeneous one. So the range of spaces species structures forums and functions, like interactions within the environment. They're all useful because they provide balance and prevent excess. So the perfect example would be I guess like a poly cultural Garden where pests are unlikely to cause like super widespread destructions because there is a balance number of hopefully pest predators that are present. But then also a Number of varieties or species even of vegetables that we're some might be even like more susceptible to pests damage and others might not be but depending on what the pest is and you'll never lose your whole crop if you have lots of different plants here. So it's yeah, it's more resilient than that sense. And then I guess it's also recognizing the value of communities and all know like people scale like cultures and multiculturalism. within an area and just generally like diversity is is so crucial, you know, it's so important and I don't know what could I say is an example like an individual example, like as an individual I guess maybe having different sources of financial income which make your financial life the hood it gets more resilient in a sense that you're not like super dependent on one job that given to me by one person you can believe He fired. Yeah, exactly. That's just like one example, but I guess that's something you can personally maybe relate to. Yeah, so principle number 11, we're getting near the end using edges and value the marginal the edges are where most of the interesting things happen interesting thing interesting thing, you know, like you see cool bugs and beasties at the edge of a forest. It's that got the highest amount of diversity at the edge, you know, and as I said before the most uncommon ecological Edge, it's often used as Delegate for this. It's the forest edge where a grassland or Meadow the grassland or meno goes across and leeches leeches leeches Forest where the to meet you have a big crossover an interactive species. So the edge is about recognizing the value in Species diversity because diversity but also about making recognizing the value in non mainstream ideas and Lifestyles good ideas often come from open inquisitive Minds willing to experiment you know, I guess in some ways. Yeah, definitely. No, but I mean working with him which had structures makes you quite rigid in your thinking and then just doesn't it you might miss something meeting an edge where you're going to be able to interact and make good ideas, you know. Yeah because social interaction good crew. Or crucial links relationship-wise. Mmm. Well and the last the last last last principle number 12, the very last principle creatively use and respond to change so designed systems have their limitations as anything does and there's no point to like like we were saying follow specific rules or principles like a rigid rules that may be like specific gun design rules this something and even though these are twelve principles, you know, they're not very rigid. They're not super precise. They're very open and you can interpret them in many ways probably anyway. Yeah and to some extent hopefully but there is no point in following them because just because there is supposed to be that way like it's important to have flexibility and changed in responses so that A system can last into the long term so question everything even these principles Um, but yeah that I think that's the last one though all done. Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about how we got interested in permaculture. Yeah, just briefly Minds easy through George. Yeah, so I guess I got interested in permaculture through organic gardening. So I used to have an allotment of having allotments and so was I think fifteen and so early on already hopped into the gun as well. That's because they were like really easy to get surprisingly that they have to like force them on people in my Village for because nobody believes real vegetable. He's can't take this bike plot of land. So yeah, like I was being at the time at college and I was really fed up with the ways that I was reading in books, you know, and I was being told by my Grandad as well. Like you have to like constantly cultivate the soil to constantly like read it you have to constantly do this and that that I just kind of got fed up with having to put so much time and effort into it. Like I was like surely there must be a way that I can make this easier on myself. Like I don't just want to constantly have to spend all my like living and spare time reading my little plot blast. Yeah, and hopefully also easier for the piece of land and I also Yeah, the soil was soil was very clay like in heavy and I just started to read into organic gardening and then I just thought oh this just seems like doing the same stuff. But without you know without actually using chemical fertilizers like sprays and stuff like that. And then I stumbled across permaculture as like a direct link to organic gardening and was like, oh wow, this is actually makes a lot of sense and I looked at how to design it and I just redesigned my sight. Try to make it a bit better in a bit bit easier for me, but didn't necessarily like it's my first time of doing anything like that didn't necessarily work that well, but I guess I've also moved away so it's completely different now, but yes and so came to Edinburgh. I also got involved with the permaculture Community classroom. Like I've been reading a lot of books. I just read a result of that permaculture. I try and talk to have loads of book recommendations as well and like links in the description so you can totally get into this. Yeah, what about you? How did you get involved? Like I said three you really really mean. Oh, yeah, I guess a little bit more detailed version would be George doesn't stop talking about permaculture. I get curious. I read a book on it. I think wow. This is brilliant. And then I think let's go to the permaculture Community classroom. Let's do it from a come to design certificate fun stuff. Well, that's me. That's pretty cool. Yeah. I just I find it very fascinating. And usually hope that's why I yeah, yeah, it makes me makes sense positive. It's based on Solutions, you know, it's not based on like the this kind of concept of like sustainability as I guess. It's beyond that exactly. It's a regenerative. You know, it's not just like, how can we minimize our carbon footprint? How can we be as like little strain on the earth as possible? It's more like, how can we actually make it better? Like, how can we how can we work with the earth I guess and how can we work with? Like what we what our needs are and then also what the Earth's needs are and how can we make things like regenerative like these regenerative like agricultural principles are like Ira forestry in the census is also really into links with permaculture. So it's I just like, yeah, it's like solution-based. It's positive. It feels it feels less draining. It feels less focus on all the bad things. I was like think it's also about like creativity. I mean like death. I don't like having Well, I just don't like being told what to do basically also absolutely despise that and yeah, hi, Ricky of like you do what I tell you. I am the garden designer. It's like with permaculture everybody has their input and it feel at least the experience that I've had with. It feels quite inclusive to the extent at least like how you want to be involved how much you want to be involved you can again both. Yeah, maybe forces you to do anything. You don't wanna do. Yeah, you can you can find a place in it. It's not like you need to have these specific. Strength, it's let's look at all the strengths that we all have and then integrate them in a specific way like valuing diversity. You know, it's it's pretty good. It's pretty good stuff funky stuff funky stuff. Gosh. Okay. Anyway, how can you get involved? I guess that's maybe what you're wondering if you if you are intrigued now, we're going to be talking about like uk-based resources because we're based in the UK, but I guess with a little bit of research. You can also find your own like International resources Wherever You Are Permaculture will be a thing somewhere places worldwide. It is definitely yeah. So the first thing I guess you could do if you want to get like totally into it as do a permaculture design certificate can be very expensive maybe should read up a little bit more. Yeah. So the like depending on maybe like what what stage of your life or in urine could be this could be this could be a good option. It also could be super not like handing at all, but that's one of the things you can do if you want to get An actual certificate another thing definitely become a member of the permaculture Association because you'll be supporting them like financially if you can and also you get a magazine which has lots of good articles in it and you get newsletters. You can even sign up to the newsletter either way like you don't need to be a member for it, but you get newsletters and there and check the website as well. They have like great job descriptions or like General Lee. The projects that are going on with the need help. So if you have time in your hands or maybe want to do a gap year or something then yeah look into some things like that. They are often among the lines of your work away or Roofing position. What else do we have? I mean you just you think I like weed. Yeah reads. Definitely. I think that's the first step. You know, you should always just like there's a few books that we have that we going to list in the second but there's like introductions that you can read within an in like a day or two. I'll just give you enough of an overview to understand what it's about. But other than that, I think I think that's the most of the way that I could think about getting into it. I mean you could also look and see if there's anybody nearby and your city that has an informal group that you know, like us that has like the permaculture Community clashing like meet up and talked about it. I mean, maybe some of your community gardens might do something with it, you know, you never know you could be could be anywhere in your city and also it's probably a good thing as well to maybe like have a look at the pound. Magazine that's always good. Yeah, so you're about to listen to a very awkward interview, please bear with us. Now. This is the first interview we ever did. I felt really unprepared. George was super shy so I did most of the asking but luckily gray is a great person. And yeah, he took lots. Thanks. Thank you for being here yet. I'm great. And yeah, I guess we met to the permaculture Community classroom. I guess we'll talk about later. Mmm. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you do? I'm a student student at Edinburgh University originally from the u.s. From California and but And number three years over three years now and yeah, it really interested in permaculture and have done various things around permaculture in Scotland and particularly number. So yeah, maybe you could give like a brief explanation of what the culture is and maybe like what it means to you. Yeah. Definitely. I think permaculture was is a design method basically that was invented in Australia in the 1970s. And since then it's become kind of a global. Ali used way of approaching systems designing systems and it's gone beyond its original scope I guess although I guess maybe its original scope included kind of social aspects, but now it really isn't just about permanent agriculture which is kind of the original the original meaning but it's also to includes now permanent culture and the idea behind that. Is that really we need if we're going to address the agricultural system. We're going to have to also address the social system. Hmm and try to build something that is more sustainable and also regenerative and I guess that's a really important aspect of it. But at its most basic form, I guess it's a way of Designing systems that are sustainable in line with the environment and are healthy and good for humans. Yeah, I'd be curious to know because I didn't actually know that is how do you learn about permaculture who I actually think I originally learned about it through the permaculture Community class. I think I do. I guess I learned about it through Gabby my friend Gabby but we both went along to I think it's a movie screening and I can't remember which one it was, but it was it was one of the original events from the permaculture committee costume. And yeah, I guess I might have heard about it before but I didn't really know anything. We watched a movie it was talking a lot about about permaculture and kind of laid it out and it showed some some really interesting examples of it like from The world and yeah, I just got really fascinated by it because I think I had already been thinking about the environment and about environmentalism and you know in the crisis in moments of Crisis and stuff and but I wanted to hear you know Solutions. I think I was ready to hear solution. So it just it just happened to come at the right time. And it's yeah, I mean, that's what it is. Right. So it's like really exciting solution. Yeah. So the permaculture classroom people probably don't know what it is. Do you want to introduce that? That weird. Yeah, like talk a little bit. But because that's how we met sort of yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the permaculture Community classroom was set up here in Edinburgh by a guy named Finn and he yeah everyone knows Ben. Yeah, it's great and he yeah, he I think his original Vision was to have this community space where people could come together and share ideas share advice talk about different projects that are going on and Actually try to you know, get your hands in the dirt and but I think I think that was the long-term Vision but it started out with these movie screenings and but it slowly evolved into into what it is now, which is more along the lines of the full vision. And yeah, so yeah, we've done various things like done projects or planting trees with, you know, we meet every every two weeks and just discuss whatever people bring but I think it was modeled on the idea of the World Cafe. That's what it was. Oh that's kind of this open Forum one just like, you know actually comes and brings they want and it can kind of adapt. So yeah, I mean in that way, I think he designed it along the lines of permaculture in a way. Yeah vision of yeah, it's adaptable and open to different feedback and stuff just go again. So through the permaculture classroom you were introduced to permaculture. Did you go on to like explore it more in depth? Did you seek any experiences that were particularly linked to permaculture or I think I Up going to movies like they kept showing movies to do that. And I think I try to do it. Like I started hosting some of the movie screenings. I mean, that's how I kind of originally got involved as like really started getting involved with hosting movie screenings and stuff. Yeah, and I guess I did start reading about it as well. I'm trying to think of the first like actual permaculture book that I read. I think the first one I actually gotten depth with was people in Permaculture by about yeah, Looby Maxima, and that's really cool. And I really got excited by that because it's like it is just the social side of it and I really love the the gardening side of the farming side of it. But I also just found it like whoa, this is so applicable to social stuff in general and that book is like all about that. And then last year I took a course where we actually use that as like the Text and we were like trying to use that to apply it's like projects and then I actually had like sit down and think okay. How does this actually get applied? And so I think yeah, it's it's actually been just a slow assimilation and a slow kind of exploration of permaculture. I think I really like this idea of groups as Gardens and that's one of the concepts in the McNamara book. Yeah. It's kind of this idea that you know, everyone has their own has Their own place how everyone has their own kind of abilities and you know, it speaks to it. Basically just healthy relationships with people and especially if you're working with in like a group for like a project or if you're in your living situation or something like that. It's a you know, it's a wet. It's a tool or it's like a lens to look at like how can we actually not just work together but like Thrive, you know and like grow and regenerate and all of these kind of abundance Concepts, you know, that is the overarching idea, but then there's all these other ways you can apply primer. To social situations these specific principles and staff to actually try to you know, work around any difficulties or you know, overcome difficulties or you know build amazing relationships with people and yes, I live in the student housing cooperatives. It's like a Cooperative way. Yeah, we all share the work and everything and so like my role within that is actually to try to work out the work chain plan the ideas basically, how do we you know is gonna die. Actually, how does everyone do their part so that no one's doing too much or too little and it's all as Fair as possible about but everything stays, you know up and running which is difficult. So, I mean, you know, it's a constant process. And again that's part of the permaculture thing. Right? It's like it's not like reaching Perfection. It's like appreciating the process for what it is selecting back on you and reflecting. Yeah, I'm taking it slowly a little exercise. Yeah, exactly. And I yeah, I think we've The done like we've really applied that well because at the moment we're on like a third iteration of the plans each year. We kind of tweak it a little bit and see how it goes. But you know, it's like it slow, you know, you take little parts and you say okay. Let's see. Let's try this thing and it's not just like let's just like constantly overhaul and try different because yeah, but you just get lost and like what did work what didn't work? Yeah. So I think yeah and then we have Reflections. So like we're just coming up on the first Reflection from Um this basically check in with everyone see how it's going reflect on our own process how it went and stuff like that. So yeah, it definitely were applying some of the principles that I think we could do more actually it's even more explicit about it. But I think yeah, I've definitely absorb some of that and put it like applied it in my personal life and in that kind of organization, like work like it should read this book now, we could talk a little bit about if there's anything in permaculture that you question or That you perhaps not like agree with us much because if there's anything that you would criticize or that's a good question. I think it's funny because I think my only my only like weariness around permaculture is the fact that it's really hard to criticize, you know, which like maybe sounds ridiculous, but it's actually like it. So it's almost like is it so like is it so all-encompassing is it so, you know, Ken? Yes catch all that. It doesn't it loses some substance or something and it's like if I can't go to size it then does that mean that actually there's you know, it's a little bit like, uh, not if it's not falsifiable, you know, it's like it's science. Like it was not falsifiable then it's it's kind of pointless to look at, you know, we can't really use it. And I mean it's at the same time. It's so kind of obviously useful, you know, and I people have applied it and like I mean one more thing I'd add So the other than that the social side that was really instrumental in like how I approached from culture was going to permaculture sites because we did that through the permaculture Community classroom pretty early on those were like just blew my mind is just like actually seeing in practice like this is so cool. And so close to where you are. I don't Graham Bell. His place is amazing. It's just so like jam packed with stuff and but it's so small, but it's just somehow like tweaked it. So well that you can just you get such an amazing. Like output of stuff. Okay, this grows amazing about some yields and stuff. So that was really cool to see and that that kind of influenced my like amazing run it and so it's obviously actually applicable and it has some like actual it work. Yeah, it works in some way, you know, it's kind of provable but at the same time it's it is kind of a catch-all thing and I think yeah, I think only time will tell once it actually becomes more popular more widely. Use what's going to come out of that because at the moment because it's kind of it's still in its early days. It's still fairly small. It's not widely applied at least not like on an industrial scale. So I applied on a huge scale. I think only time will tell if it'll be you know, if it'll be usable or if there are some serious fundamental antiques, but I think ya might like I don't have anything where I look at it. I'm like, oh, I think it is quite I mean, I don't want to say specific but it's kind of It leads to certain outcome. So it is in a sense falsifiable if it's like if those outcomes don't work, then that's obviously not do you know if they don't lead to the actual ends that you're trying to go for that are sustainable then obviously, it is most viable and I think it's also just so like it's actually so it looks simple but and you know meaning it looks like kind of catch-all but that actually when you get down to it, you're like how would this actually how to apply this? It is quite complicated, you know and usually and the rebound Sing all the principal even though each individual principle might be simple balancing all of those together. That's that's a challenge and I think that to me makes me feel like okay. No, actually this is this is a this does lead to certain systems and does mean something. I think it links. Sometimes it's a very specific like knowledge that you might not have so sometimes when I don't know when I read the more abstract sort of broad principles and visions of permaculture and then I would look at like, so how would I design this side? Right, then. It's a lot more. Oh, I need a lot of different skills here in a lot of different people and I think that's where the people side also comes in like variety of skills and diversity. I think what do you think? I don't know what you say. It's off-putting because it is automatically in many cases. I don't know if you can agree with this but I think in many cases kind of links to like gardening like permaculture. Oh, what is it gardening sort of thing, and I've heard a lot of people. Say that when I when I talked to them and they look so what is permaculture is it like organic Army? I was like, yeah, I go to Forest Reserve. I mean it kind of is obviously it's but is part of it and it's not just that yes. It's a thing where people say like is what is permaculture. I've heard. It's just Forest gardening or this or that and it's like yeah, it's kind of not one thing. It's many things all the things in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's an interesting one because you know, I think it's just important to remember that it's not it is a set of like principles and ethics and it's not a set of practices and it's not defined by any particular set of practices because you know, one of the I mean, I'm not really actually drives from the principle of like be it like adaptability and like, you know play specific. Yeah Solutions and the idea that like, you know, what's going to you know, what techniques are, you know, anything like that that's going to work in. Somewhere saying Scotland is not going to work in South Africa. It's not an Australian soccer to work. So, you know that I think that alone kind of precludes any sort of any any sort of particular application like whereas organic. I mean, it's actually it's actually a complicated thing because organic is also more complicated than most people Define it as yeah because if you look at the origin of organic farming, I mean that was actually a movement like that was a Grassroots. The movement mostly from like the global South with like agroecology. And this is something an included fair trade like fair trade organic or like really closely tied at their very beginning and you can find it on the on the organic like website and they explained it the original organic movement. But you know that's been kind of in a I mean a lot of people would say that's been like kind of co-opted by like big agribusiness that does do the exact same things, but they just do it with, you know, organic chemicals, you know, which Organic chemicals in a sense is kind of a you know, an oxymoron like it's yeah for many for many original organic farmers. I think they would see that as a problem because it's not just about the chemicals just about the health issues. It's also about the control that that big corporations like Monsanto and stuff have over the the chemical industry. So they're just going to switch to having the same amount of control over organic chemicals. Yeah. It's actually not solving the The original issue, you know as such so I think so. That's kind of its own thing. That's that's interesting when people say that I was at it with mere Farm outside of Edinborough and I was talking to the the guy who owns that and I was asking because I was looking around and if you actually look at it and he's fairly permaculture. I mean, he called they call it an organic farm, but he's applying permaculture stuff. He's using edges. He's you know using grazing and kind of rotating grazing around and stuff like that. And so I just asked him like Hey, you know, what do you think about permaculture? What is this? You know dod's permaculture here. Are you applying for people to you know, and and his first reaction was like I don't really know about like permaculture. Yeah, so but then he kind of came up to me as we were walking away and stroke team or personally and was like, you know, yeah, I mean, I know what purple cultures but like I actually kind of I think it gets to caught. He he felt it was too political. He felt it was He's too kind of like associated with specific thing that he didn't want to associate with. And yeah, I did financing. I think yeah, maybe so I and I kind of gotten that sense from other people where permaculture you know, I think they understand rightfully so that it's bigger than organic I guess is in terms of its like scope. I got ya although you know, as I just mentioned like organic is The political and I got it was originally a protocol as well. It's just that it's lost that connotation to most people and so I think farmers are a little bit more wary of permaculture. It feels a little bit more out there than organic work because organic feels like it is it is just defined by the specific set of principles so that I yeah, I don't know how that's going to play out because I think that's really about how does permaculture as a as a movement Define itself to other people. How do we make ourselves, you know, look to One. Yeah, and that's an open question. I mean a lot of criticism I hear from a guy like is that like you said people in organic farmers just used organic chemicals and it's like what else are different to chemical agriculture is still chemical Agriculture and then that's almost like a detraction from the original am it's a criticism and it's just it sticks in people's heads. Now, we will hear organic. They think on which the money wasted time. So I was wondering like potentially might be a point in the future that permaculture has a similar thing. That might actually negatively stick to it if you know like like if something like that if it gets corporatized in like can't even be that that that's the thing. I think it can it can it be can it be stammers? It's like kind of almost against It's all philosophy. Like yeah under is permaculture even like yeah, can it be a place on a large scale? Is it supposed to be applied to a large killer? Does that almost defeat the sort of like purpose of it? That's something that I was wondering when I watch that and yes, I mean, I think Like personally, I mean, I think it definitely can be applied on a large scale but it depends on what we mean by large-scale. Yeah. Now do we mean do we mean one farmer, you know a million hectares large-scale, you know and AKA very very high concentration of wealth and land in one individual may be just a few individuals and then of course all of them if we're going to apply permaculture, which is you know, it's efficient and it's The efficient in terms of inputs, you know, it's in fact in theory has no inputs. No outputs. It's just a closed system. Where as you know, of course agriculture now is how the current system runs is just a massive inputs. It's very very inefficient, you know, massive inputs and like small output. Yes, like in comparison relative output. So it's efficient that way but it's labor-intensive which is a different form of efficiency and there's lots of arguments in economics level of those are but anyway, like basically Ali from culture requires a lot of people to put all their hands on deck and do everything that doesn't mean it's like heart it's honestly hard work. I mean it is yeah. It's like it's hard work in some ways but it doesn't necessarily look like your traditional farmer, you know pushing trying to get his tractor stuck out of the mud all the time which is created through this, you know destruction of the soil and you know, hitching things on and constantly so it's a different type of drudgery than we think of but you know it Involves picking and involves. He's gotten things but you know that stuff already happens like that stuff already happened. It's just it's just happens with you know, in essentially invisible laborers who mostly migratory laborers who you know who travel around they paid very little in the in the u.s. They're mostly they are a lot of them are illegal immigrants and particularly for example in California and depends on where you go see what the saying California with massive agriculture, you know, a lot of them a lot of them are illegal. Immigrants and there's huge issues around that in terms of you know, that I'm not getting paid enough that knocking benefits than not having a good safety good safety standards. So it's like, you know, that that's going to have to that's going to look different, you know, but it is still labor. What I mean is the current system is still labor-intensive. It's just maybe it visibly labor-intensive and I think what we need to do is, you know, can we scale it? Yes it but if it's going to Large scale, you know things are going to have to come up above board more people are going to participate in this there's got to be more labor involved in terms of like people power. But like that's a great thing. Right? Like what what is the thing we hear all the time like not enough jobs, you know high unemployment people not satisfied with their jobs, you know, massive health issues. I mean this in theory could solve many of those issues, you know, you get people who work physical jobs Outdoors, but they're not necessarily like judging physical jobs, you put a lot of stuff, you know, you're making jobs and making healthy jobs making healthy people and the action is a lot of people who want to do this man seemed you know us three are ya three young people who want to actually get our hands dirty and like and do it. It's an exciting visit exciting job when it's framed like you can actually be in touch in in tune with nature. You can actually do some really amazing things and actually contribute to Earth and not just, you know take from it. Yeah, and I think it'd be a good opportunity as well kind of to connect. Go more to the gland and like natural cycles. And yeah and the food really because I mean food security is another huge thing isn't it thing? Oh, yeah, the system right now is not no it's not working. And I think when I yeah when I hear the like is it scalable is not scalable, you know, it's so the the frame in which that question is asked is so narrowly defined. I think the real answer should be like, well, we're not going to be able to go on living as a Pioneer in the System. So if we're going to you know, is it scalable? Absolutely. It's available. But yeah, it's also going to involve, you know, big changes and assistant, but that's a good thing that's exciting thing and like we're all going to be better off for it right like yeah good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think like I really important point there is that you know, especially it's so important to get people at a young age involved in these things and it's so important I think to To actually get people and I mean just not not just seeing it but like touching it feeling Adria groans instrumental, you know, and the yeah, there's something about imagining growing that's totally different than actually growing, you know, and I mean, I don't have actually that much experience of growing like I but the experience that I have had it's like it always turns out different than I expected. Yeah, it's so I think and but at the same time, I think there's a huge desire for for young people, especially Now like we're talking about to go into that and to try it out and it's like, you know, just give them the space like you give him a pot of land like if I had a plot of land here like I would be growing some all the time, you know, it's like that that would you know, it's a physical activity it you know helps my mental health helps my physical health, you know how I can grow stuff. So, you know, I'm not relying as much on the food system and increases food security. It's like it could check all the boxes but it's just the political will isn't quite there, but I You know, maybe it's getting there. A lot of people's hands are tired. I guess. Yeah, but you know, which on the one hand is difficult but in the other hand it means okay. Well the people actually want this and we can actually do it. So just if we do that like that push now and we try to yeah get something enshrined about about land particularly. I think I think it's doable, you know, and I think it will have huge ramifications down the line and also the children of permaculture, you know, that's getting bigger as well in the school systems school programs trying. Kids more involved in green spaces like that is seeping in now and to like mainstream curricula. And so that's yeah, it's getting there. Hopefully, it's getting that yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you guys this great. I hope you enjoy that I don't know is slightly awkward at all. And before we go Grace back to quickly talk about the block that you just set up all week. I guess with the permaculture Community classroom. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah with the permaculture Community costume. We just set up a Blog as a subset called growing perspectives and The idea behind the glass tank will be in the description. Yeah growing perspectives that I wound up blog and it yeah the idea of the blog is is essentially to offer as many different examples viewpoints whatever it is about the ecological crisis in in a way that is reflective of permaculture. So it even might be critical but just something that engages with those questions around using permaculture the ideas of active. Hope you know agroecology. These kind of solution based lots of good stuff put a piece on there to write a piece or to make a video or anything and they can just contact us through the block. Also, you don't need to write them down what we're saying them. You'll find them all in this description, but we'll just briefly talk about all of them and what they kind of Encompass. Yeah to start I can list them off. So the first one would recommend meeting is permaculture in a nutshell. This is quite a good sort of brief introduction. And then so is that a permaculture a beginner's guide by a green Banner? I'd recommend reading those two first those two are like quite a good overview. This small little books full of books really Teensy and then depending on what you want to do then next you want to go full in you could maybe just go for the Earth care manual, but I think Like a big blue book that's basically permaculture Bible. Yeah, but temperate zones. Anyway, these are these are going to be mostly but temperate uk-based sort of system listed many though in Australia, which a lot of the books are so I will I will say that if you are looking at permaculture book now just check that. It's for your region and it's not loaded plants in there for like America or Australia. I can be something that I've noticed that I've actually done for. So yeah, so then another one might be Be if you're looking to design a site I would recommend their commanders had before but also permaculture design a step-by-step guide by ammonia. That's quite a good in-depth guide to just the design aspect of it and some Thinking Tools how to actually do it. You know, it's really it's a really good breakdown of that. If you're looking for the social side of permaculture. Maybe you want to have a look at people and permaculture. I haven't actually read this book, but I agree recommend this way. Committed to this and I've heard good things about it from plenty of people. This is by the movie mcnamar and yeah, yeah, I definitely recommend that then if you want to go full in for the philosophy and have a good theoretical knowledge of permaculture probably would say permaculture principles and Pathways Beyond sustainability by David Holmgren, the co originator of permaculture is a great place to start, you know, and even if you already know that about permaculture is a good way to to get get some more thinking done on the theory the classic one that a lot of people always say about is a designer's manual permaculture designers manual but Bill Mollison, but this is mostly I think for Australia that really big one with the snake really big one with the really thankful illustration of the front, but as Bill Morrison was mostly based in Australia, it's mostly arid things. And Australia those things not to say that the answer isn't stuff in in that one or permaculture one or permaculture to the original books that they developed that also the same but there were they have useful things in there. But I would recommend Earth care manual over those if you're in a temperate zone, there's also another General books are the permaculture Garden by Graham Bell book by Martin Crawford called creating a forest garden and this has loads of species within there. Basically sets out how you how you should do it again. You can be uk-based other books by Martin Crawford that if you're looking for specific species, I would also recommend as well and there's another one called gyres Garden a home guide to home scale permaculture by Toby Hemingway. Yeah. I'm not too sure. What's in that one. I haven't read that one either, but I've heard good things too. And then the final one is Earth. You just go to panic. by Rosemary more Yeah, and I guess that's it and just wanted to say thank you so much for listening. Thank you. Yeah, if you've made it through and if you thought this is a long one. This was a long one. Definitely. So thank you for listening for 2 whole thing. I really hope you enjoyed it. We are actually taking commissions at the moment for a sort of experimental podcast episode that we want to be doing. We want to start a series within this inevitable change podcast about Like human emotions or just like human experiences and we're currently taking commissions for the topic summer Nostalgia, which will be hopefully publishing in january-february sometime around then and it's going to like you can cut like you can send us music you going to show you how you can send a stories anything you associate with like like summer memories or someone Nostalgia or just the feeling of nostalgia? Logic - I guess so this is very open. There are not really like huge like no rules or whatever. Yeah, exactly. No limits. You can even send us sound recordings email will be in the description. So, please please do like take part in this I really would love for this to be quite a diverse kind of collection of bits and Bobs and yeah, please join because if we don't get any commissions, this ain't happening. Yes. Just be us chatting about boy. Someone was like this. Also. If you have the time, please be so kind to leave a little review share your thoughts share your criticisms, and we'll take those under mowing under our wing to the next episode but a boom, bye-bye.
Inevitable Change is a podcast about all things growth, change and cyclical systems in the natural and emotional world. We're Johanna & George, two horticulture students chatting about all sorts of nature related topics. ✨ In this episode we talk about permaculture, giving a brief introduction to what it involves, the principles and ethics and how we became interested in it. We also have a chat with our friend Gray Davis, a fellow member of the Permaculture Community classroom (PCC). The PCC is an Edinburgh based, informal group open to anybody with an interest in permaculture. The PCC has recently started a blog called growing perspectives, which is linked below, and a study group for more in depth, single topic discussions. If youre in Edinburgh why not find the facebook page and join one of of our sessions for more information on permaculture: Blog: https://growingperspectives.home.blog Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/edinculture/ 🌿 🌼 Book Recommendations Permaculture in a Nutshell - Patrick Whitefield Earth Care Manual - Patrick Whitefield Permaculture: A Beginners Guide - Graham Burnett Permaculture Design: a Step by Step Guide - Aranya People & Permaculture - Looby Macnamara Permaculture Principles & Pathways Beyond Sustainability - David Holmgren A Designers' Manual - Bill Mollison The Permaculture Garden - Graham Bell Creating a Forest Garden - Martin Crawford Gaia's Garden: A Guide to Home-scale Permaculture - Toby Hemenway Earth User's Guide to Permaculture - Rosemary Morrow 🐝 Movie Recommendations: - Permaculture: The Documentary - Bill Mollison In Grave Danger of Falling Food 1989 - Inhabit - A permaculture Perspective 🌤 Podcast Recommendations: The Permaculture Podcast Sustainable world radio Making Permaculture Stronger Permaculture Voices Embodiment matters Organic Life (Scottish Podcast) The Plant Path Regenerative Agriculture 🍂 FIND US HERE email for submissions to eumycota18@hotmail.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inevitable.change.podcast/ George: https://www.instagram.com/bryophytaboy/ Johanna: https://www.instagram.com/fiorere/ Website: https://eumycota.com/ 