so we can hello everyone and welcome to living in this queer body a podcast about barriers to embodiment and how our Collective body stories can bring us back to ourselves. I'm a sure pandarus and as always I am honored to have you joining me truly. I have one announcement today and then we'll get right to the interview with the heartfelt and fierce CJ Miller if you're listening to this. Send real-time on Tuesday, January 14th from 7 to 9 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. And I will be hosting a workshop with Ilya Parker a former podcast guest of decolonizing fitness and there are recordings available to purchase of the workshop if you can't make it live and those will be available until February 1st. So I am going to tell you a little bit about the workshop. The workshop is an opportunity to explore all the nuances of the provocation. What is healthy movement? And how do we fall back into our bodies from the perspective of Ilya and myself so illya as a black non-binary Trans masculine person in a larger body with chronic injuries a is someone who works as a physical therapist assistant and personal They're in the workshop. Ilya will speak to the ways they felt pressure to medically transition and modify their body through exercise to align with a cyst masculine presentation leading to many injuries. Ilya will also discuss the ways, they incorporate pleasure and purposeful movement in ways that feel supportive. I will talk a bit about the way in which chronic illness has impacted my relationship to moment and nourishment and we will have an opportunity attendees will have the opportunity to ask questions to Ilya who is just a tremendously heartfelt intelligent amazing critic actually of Wellness culture and Billy is just the best truly. He's amazing and I'm inspired by the work that he does. And I'm honored that he wants to do this workshop with me. So if you haven't already registered, you can go to my website www.levitt.com this queer body.com and there's a link to register and you have until February 1st if you want to purchase the recording I really hope you join us and speaking of all things gender complicated fierce. Heartfelt we are so blessed to have CJ Miller on the episode today in the episode CJ and I speak about her movement towards the dance and movement practice as a pony sweat instructor. You'll learn all about Pony sweat. When you listen to the podcast inhabiting her body as an intersex and trans person a relationship. To empowered feminists and her identification as a leopard girl amongst other things. So CJ Miller is a Dancer poet illustrator and musician currently. She is the front woman for agitprop clueless soundtrack worshipping Riot girl band Timber and plays bass for queer a narco death rock band remorseless. She's an instructor for oh nice wet a fiercely non-competitive body-positive dance aerobics thing in LA and it's really cool and I am curious if anyone wants to bring some of it to New York. I know they travel around at times and it's just a really amazing thing her most recent poetry collection lipstick volume 1 a An emotional outpouring of intersex transform history and experience was released via arts and crafts Printing and distro. She has contributed interviews reviews and opinion pieces. Most recently to raise our cake magazine maximum rock and roll and new noise magazine. CJ is also co-founder and organizer for presence and all ages queer trans and be why GNC intersex community and artists Focus event based out of Northeast Los Angeles and you can find out lots of things all things CJ on Instagram at spooky Miller underscore and all the links will be in the show notes. CJ also has a really powerful self portrait project that she is offering for print on t-shirts. I will post the image in my newsletter and on Instagram. And the shirts are available to trans and ENB why folks for free? CJ's intention is to encourage acceptance and Empower love for Trans bodies outside the current model which presses folks towards surgery and alterations of our bodies to conform to oppressive binary gender standards in order to cover the cost of this project. CJ is asking cisgender people to donate 20 to 40. Dollars or any amount and you can venmo her at dim birdie. I mber CJ Miller and I'll put a link in the show notes. It's a really beautiful exchange that she setting up. So I hope you consider a donation and now on to the show. CJ. Thank you for joining me today. It's really cool to have you here. Thanks. It's nice to be here cool. So I guess as you know, I like to start H each episode with a question. And you can kind of go wherever this takes you can take you and other people a lot of different places, but you know, when you think about your earliest memories of realizing or learning about having a body what what comes to mind for you? It's something that like I thought about previously like even prior to my experience of meeting you and interacting in this capacity, but because I A lot of kind of like early really not so much like really cohesive concrete connection with that but things that feel really profound and like sort of I don't know if this is something that just happens with like the progression of memory, but they feel very like dreamlike in the way that they kind of like exist in the space of my body and which is also really interesting because of like the sensation of dreams, I think. Which to me like a lot of people dismiss like change the boring or whatever, but I think that they're really pretty fascinating because so much of like our memory is experiential and like based on like our brains processing things. So to me like a dream is that process like just sort of in a different capacity. Hmm, and I think there's a lot of like to me I think it says so my connection with my dreams is like almost as if they're things that have happened to me because I still live Threw them in the same way in terms of like trauma and joy and all of em, like I haven't like deep memory connection to like a lot of profound dream experience that I had and so like I don't feel me personally like I put a lot of stock in that and I don't want to dismiss them as just like, I don't know in substantial or whatever. So that is to say a lot of my like early memories feel like very dreamlike in the way that the sensations like sort of play out in me like trying to grow back through them and stuff. Yeah, so I have like my earliest earliest connection is really it's very like like sent Centric which is something that is also as I've gotten older is something that I'm I found myself being really connected to set as like a profound experience in my life. Um, and I've like kind of brought it into like my developing identity. We're like Identify as like a leopard girl. It's like it's like grrl. Whatever when I use it. It's which is like a playful thing that involves a lot of aspects of my identity and a lot of my art lately has been involving that mmm, we can talk more about that. But as part of that where I'm connecting this is that I have a lot of powerful like sent connection with things that are happening now in my life that seems to have at least I like to talk more about it than his Seems like most of my friends do so. My my guess is that maybe it is like it feels like it is more of a collective way for me than Perhaps. It is for other people or they're just not as comfortable talking about that since experience. So when I was really really small have a really profound experience of being like seemingly like also met because I was like a small body. It feels like all these plants were like above me and it was like what we commonly know in, California. Mr. Chum, which is like Tropez over majus not like nasturtium Watercress. It's that trailing plant that has the big round leaves and the like green leaves and then the orange red flowers. I don't know if they have them where you're at. Its I think like South American in origin, but we have a ton of it in California here and that's like in Central California when I was about like five or six is where I have this Association of like being in Seemingly like a force of this plant that was like towering over me. I remember like light passing through the thin green leaves and the smell like totally enveloping me like in this really intoxicating Joyful Way this like peppery dank incredible smell and like being so like just taken with it and wanting to just like rub my head in like all this and and being so Wound with what this like sensation could do for my body. So that feels like really like since it's a very profound that sense thing. That's like my earliest connection to having a body is just like being in this Forest of nasturtium and like just like reveling in of it and how powerful that was and maybe that like set a precedent even perhaps like for how much these things. He's like impact me in my life. Mmm wise I don't know but like definitely I think because that was such a profound experience for me and like this like sensual experience. I guess that feels like an early body determination thing. Yeah. Yeah and like around the same time. I have a lot of like medical history trauma stuff that I also connect do as like early memory stuff, but I feel like the the sense smell Thing with these flowers was perhaps I can like the earliest. Hmm. Yeah, it's just it's really interesting to hear about how how you were able to Well how you appreciated or kind of give gave yourself over to this experience? You know, I'm just like picturing you really open to being like surrounded by plants that were you know smelling delicious and I think that's a very you know, like in some ways is a very conventional Trope of like childhood, you know, like laying in a field of flowers. I don't know I mean maybe but I think that that's actually maybe not actually what Happens and the interesting thing is is that you remember it. So, well, you know and that it's still can it sounds like you know, you've kind of drawn a connection between that part of you that really appreciated since and being enveloped by something and sensual to kind of your identity now like those two things are really there's like a through line, they're totally and like, I don't know if like only those threads have like been like sort of pulled out and like exam. Bit more like in lately as I like current sort of like coming to more of an understanding of my body for sure. I'm sure that's part of it. Also. I'm I think like it's definitely a lot of that experience like and perhaps there was even like things that were antecedent to that also, but like I have like such a deep connection with plants and like having communion connection with them as well. So there's like all sorts of things that like sort of really expanded Meza Nate in that Central experience of that. Me that I have I think about like know all the time to not an exaggeration capacity. But like Austin for sure. Yeah, you're right. It is really funny that it's like such a like kind of cute little Trope of like I'm a child and I'm like laying in this field of flowers, but like I don't know that's like really it was such a like and it was like a mystery to it that like felt really powerful, um, like explored exploratory in a way. Because like I don't remember being with anyone else. Yeah and like a single mom and like sisters basically raising me. I was left a lot to my own devices. So I feel like in this experience. It's like I wasn't with friends. I wasn't what I was like in my in the Mind's Eye. I was just like alone in this like it will during Forest a mic but being so like feeling really safe. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which is feels really good also. Since like I have also these early determinations of like medical history stuff that I associate to like there was like just some particularly traumatic stuff that I don't really feel comfortable telling into but in retrospect. I've like connected a lot of it to like my experience as like intersects individual and like because I have a lot of these feelings of like feeling experimented on um in a way that like a really kind of more like with a She thrown over them. I can kind of see it but like it's obscured a little bit for me, which is like, you know, as our body like protect ourselves from from trauma. I think that's probably related to it. But like these little glimpses of like seeing myself reflected off of like medical instruments and stuff that were being used on me and that like is also no such as so it's nice to have something that feels a little bit like safer. That's like an Sure thing because like it's sad but I think it's like a true reality of our current state that like for intersex people on for Trans people a lot of like our childhood is like rooted in trauma, and I certainly have my fair share of experience of that but it's also nice to have this and this really like animal connection is also really important for me because it's something that I'm constantly striving to get back to is like trying to live as an animal and not so much as like this human. Action that we have hmm, which to me I feel like is like there's a lot of powerful things that we've done but there's also like us sort of like escaping from that identity of being like animals and like desist associating from the rest of the world. I don't like particularly want to throw myself with that lives of thinking but so like animal connection creature self stuff is really important to me also. Hmm, so it's nice to have like a memory. That as well. Yeah. Yeah. Can you can you talk a little bit more about this like kind of leopard girl be lying, you know, like kind of identity that your you explore have been exploring or how you connect with all of that. Yeah. I'm not sure like when it became more like a cohesive thing but like light lately, I've like been analyzing a lot as I said, like I've been doing a lot of like self-portrait illustration work. That's Add to it and like a lot of my poetry this could been connected to this identity and it's like there's a lot of like facets to it. And yeah, I'm definitely comfortable talking about it, which is that like I think like foremost it's really like a form of play and like pretend and playfulness. That is something that I try to practice a lot through dance practice through like a lot of practice in my life because it feels really like valuable. They work in terms of connection with my body and like inner child stuff and like also relating back to this like animal state of being and like working through like shame and embarrassment all these things that come up that like play is a really like, it's for me a powerful like I sift rule in which I can like cut through all this shame and like embarrassment and like play and like dance in the line at the grocery. SRI stores, I'm like shopping like things that like feel really powerful when like there's all these social constructions to like make us feel shame for that. So this idea of like I'm a lot like I'm like leopard hybrid like humanoid creature is like there's a lot of play in that and a lot of like humor that can be used also and for me, it also is like a sort of really powerful Reclamation of space. In a society where like as a as a trans person as intersex person like I mothered all the time and so in the same way that like our community speaking of like queer Community, we've retaken language right in like a way. It's like Empower. So I was like retaking dike you taking faggot using these as like self identifiers and being like yeah, I am this thing but I'm fucking proud of it. Yeah. I see a correlation. Shinto me taking this thing and be like cool you want to treat me like I'm not even human great. I'm not I'm this thing that like you have no power over you have no standing of like what I am and my understanding I come from a culture that you you know, so it's this kind of construction of like taking this thing and through that lens. It's a really fun way to like explore with my art of like cool. You're going to other me to the point of like this. Extreme then like I'm gonna take it and run with it kinda has a lot of like power and like again like also, I think like a lot of queer people be like can like try to defuse like oppression and Trauma with like humor and so it's related to that as well. I also just like feel of that way in my body a lot like my movement base like kind of like like What's the word I want to use here? Maybe you because of your your professional experience like how we view ourselves. But is there like a word for that special like your self concept or something? Yeah, like a self-concept thing that feels really like empowering for me in a way to move Beyond like traditional beauty standards and stuff like that. Well until IQ myself in that sort of way that feels really like powerful and like sexy and like Sam them but like Very empowered. Yeah, and like, you know just like a connection with body in that way that feels really nice and it's like kind of poured over into like a lot of like sort of like fun like Kink play because that I have which is also like feels really playful in that same way kind of as like fun sort of like imaginative activities and stuff. So there's that connection and then I've just like had I need things come into my life that have like affirmed that not so much funny. Just interesting synchronicities. Hmm. I have a friend who's in an osteopath who does a lot of work on me and helps me a lot and she has like made like funny Q offhand comments like not even knowing so much about my personality and this like leopard identification, but being like CJ, like I don't know like your feet look different like I don't even think like you have human feet. These are like weird cat feet. Here she didn't say weird. He's like really careful and thoughtful with her language, but oh, well actually and really like let me tell you and then like in a lot of like past life like guided meditation stuff. I've connected with a lot of like big cat stuff and then I had like another healer person talk to me about that. I had some recurrent trauma involving my leg. And was like this Association to this like cat being the head hurt her leg and like suffered like a traumatic injury from it and stuff. And so there's just like all sorts of ways in which it's like kind of poor back in on itself. And yeah, I don't know. I've always liked felt really like compelled and connected to like big cat animals and like just like I mean, aesthetically they're like beautiful to like draw the patterns on their skin. It's like a lot of like interesting things to explore that all just like resonates for me. Hmm. Yeah, it seems like it's like continually very generative for you. Like they're like, they're sort of it connects to a lot of different aspects of both how you see yourself, but how you position yourself in the world and you know, I know I'd love to talk a little bit more about movement because I know that like, you know, that's a big part of of your life and your professional life and and just thinking about how this this kind of Of like identification sort of plays out and movement as well. Yeah, I mean it and it's funny. It's like all these things sort of like we're no doubt gestating in my body for a really really long time. But like in the course of me like as so many like, well not so many but like there is a narrative for some trans people which is like my narrative as well in that like I came out as like queer like a much younger age and then like I have this like additional coming out like in terms of like feeling comfortable and again like exercising all this shame from myself to like come out as trans and then to like be like discover like my intersects identity and all that and like working through that and then like sometimes I reference this in my poetry that I'm like, oh, okay. So here's this like third coming out now, we're like I've written about like, oh like a werewolf and like this will be my third. Coming out and like what I'm afraid of this because this narrative also has all this like tragedy Associated to it and like in the same way like them like once I could like inhabit my body, you know, like a truer more direct way with this like coming out as like intersex and trans than like my body then like sort of like took off in a lot of ways also and at that same time is when I came into like like a back to another country with dance practice. And in this Dance Movement actus I felt like the very like awkward and uncomfortable in the beginning times of it. And then like as I've come into more of myself, like I've seen myself like grow and be able to connect with my body in that way. And so I right at that same time was also when I really started to like focus in on like these aspects of my identity and like play with this like cat sense also, so in connection with it, so both things coming in and being used as like a tool of empowerment. Hmm. What is your what is your movement practice? Just so folks a little bit about it. I am involved with a dance program like most thing. I devote most of my time to in terms of terms of movement practice. I do do other things Beyond this but like my dear heart and love Is with pony sweat, which is is this fear seen on competitive dance aerobics practice that focuses on a lot of like radical body acceptance work and it was created and founded by my found Family Sister Amelia Richardson, and it's just like yeah, it's rooted in like it's like a choreographed dance class, but it's rooted in these really heavily politicized. the ideas of like Reclamation of space and creating a space where like all bodies are valued and these hierarchies of like beauty standards and like Beauty connected to like the value of movement which like in dance practice is like super loaded movement spaces are like, you know, we see it everywhere but there's like a very specific genre of oppressive like body stuff that happens in linspace of like trying to create a space where people feel more comfortable exploring their bodies in a way that feels like Central said themselves as an individual without these additional like heavy standards of like what a body supposed to move like when it's body supposed to look like and it's really just a practice, you know, because it's all of us as just one body against a whole flux of oppressive information. It's like a really difficult thing to access and is still really difficult for me to access and so I came into the program as a student first and it was right when I was like I had come out to like some close friends some clothes like found family and was like just making steps to like publicly like him at my profession and like it my other jobs like Being like demanding use of pronouns and like all these things and like really coming out and then right then was when then like I found this class and it was through a friend of mine who I think recognize that I was suffering some really like deep depression and having like a lot of like really heavy body issues that were really stifling a lot of me and like brought this up. Up because my friend knew that I had had Dance Experience and also had like found a lot of like joy and Power in this class and was like CJ. I think maybe this is like something you would want to explore and then it was like this funny beautiful synchronicity of that just like a few months prior. I had just met Emilia at this like magical meeting a friend's wedding out in the woods and we had really connected there and then my friend Lauren like bestowed this gift of life. His class upon me and I was like, oh my gosh, that's that person that like I met and felt so connected with and then do that process of just coming as a student Amelia and I discovered that we were like long-lost littermates that were separated at Birth at some point. And and yeah, it was a really it was a really vulnerable space to go into and really open myself up in there. But I very quickly like discovered that this was like a really as as safe of a spaces, I was likely to find to like reconnect with dance in a way of inhabiting my body and like a way that like I had been shamed for for so long of these very like particularly like Femme movements that were so like built into me and like I don't know where these like inclinations of movement come from like that we see in people like I don't think it necessarily matters whether Environmental or genetic but like definitely it's like both because we see like siblings having similar mannerisms and things like that. I had a lot of stuff that was that was like forcibly repressed in me in terms of like having like really high fem movement stuff and then also as like, I'm a very tall Femme person. I had a lot of like trauma in terms of Like taking up space like literally physically taking up space and like Amelia saw something in me and really like evil as I was a student. We really were connecting and I remember very specifically her being like sis like you I don't know how she said it exactly but it was basically to be effective like you never extend your arms to the point of like as far as you could. She saw me like curtailing every movement. And like being literally afraid to be like in my body and to like be tall to be big and we processed and impact that a lot and she was like, that's something I really if you can like I would love to see you focus on it like opening up my heart my arm span and my leg span and taking up space in that way and all sorts of these things just sort of like began to connect and I really was like confronting a lot of ways like, oh how I been stifling. Other things in my in my body. There's this such a gift that happened for me when I finally came out of like it happening like a trans intersex body. So openly and publicly where I was like what the fuck else in my life. Have I been hiding and shaming and it was like a new refreshed lens with which to like examine all of my behavior in my life my language all these things that I had like what am I internalized? Like what aspects of this like testing white supremacist Colonial like awful sis heteronormative Society have I like been putting into my body and it's so much work to like work through all that stuff, but I was like, I'm so here for this and like obviously everyone needs to go at their own pace because like a lot of trauma comes out of these explorations of our bodies and like why we hate ourselves why we hate other people, but it was really special for me to find this dance practice with which to explore that and I feel so lucky and so Recognize so much privilege in that of like having this space that feels like, you know, we talked about in class that like don't necessarily think like safe spaces exist is like a thing that's part of our rhetoric in the class because once you're just like this is a safe space. It's sort of puts the emphasis on the space itself to be safe and like No four walls are gonna like do anything to provide any sort of like emotional or like psychological safety. Like they may physically like protect us from the elements and stuff and there needs to be like recognition of like what shelter provides for people as far as like safety but like the safe space as we determine it of like protecting each other really needs to be on the people that come into the space that people facilitating the space the participants like if it's a performer the And the audience like there needs to be this conversation about it. And so we say that like what we can do is like cultivate a safer space but a big part of that is like recognizing that we are all bodies in a room together and like each one of these bodies is provided different access and privilege and each body is denied access in different ways. And so like that's an important conversation. I think that really needs to extend to like every space we enter Because it like brings up. Ideas of consent and all sorts of stuff that are really important but it was really amazing for me to find a dance space for this is being actively discuss and then yeah, so at some point Amelia, I like saw something in me and asked to have a meeting with me and I thought I was in trouble because just what I think that any time anyone's like CJ. Can I talk to you I have like catastrophist brand where I'm like shit. What did I do? Oh my God. But then yeah, she took me to coffee and asked me to be like an instructor and at that point, I'd only been hers very like DIY operation that she built herself and asked me to be another instructor and I agreed and cried across this to that and now it's become a pretty like in very very important part of my life as like an instructor and being a part of this program and this pack. Octus that I think is like really really special. Yeah. It's I mean, it's amazing to hear about that. Especially just as someone I mean when you were and I were talking earlier talking about like quote-unquote healing or Wellness spaces not being not only not being inclusive but not being, you know attentive to the Nuance of what you know bodies that have held trauma bodies that experience trauma on a daily basis, you know, like what what the needs are You know and it sounds like this this practice really for you at least you know was able to kind of get at some of those nuances of like what you knew what you needed in order to feel safe, you know safer and and I think like the multiple forms of recognition that happened the ways in which you were seeing that you didn't even realize you needed to be seen like all of those things are kind of factors that really constitute I think. Okay. Kind of safer or more healing spaces and yet they're so they're so rare to find for queer and trans and folks and and so it's really beautiful to hear about this how I guess I'm curious like how it feels now to be in, you know, kind of a leadership role in some ways and taking, you know as like for me I'm you know as a psychotherapist. List and someone who facilitates groups, there's a kind of a level of responsibility that comes along with with that that is different from being a participant, you know, like I have I have a therapist like I'm grateful for her and yet being a therapist is different and so I'm just wondering what that transition has been like for you. Yeah, it's been yeah, it's that's a really interesting question that it's Then like a pretty pretty profound thing. It's been really a challenge for me to inhabit and like I associate a lot of this to like my Leo moon in that like stepping into like confidence and recognition of like confidence being like very different from like egotism and narcissism like being in a position of like being like self-important to a point of like damaging other folks has been like such like it. like such a stifling scary thing for me that it made me make myself small in so many capacities of my life and really downplay things and like I think a lot of that is related to like external like social passion stuff elec femmephobia and like homophobia transphobia all that stuff, but I think it also that there's a lot of it that's like individualistic related to me and and part of this process of like unpacking again in relating back to like what things my internalizing how am I acting that are not ways that feel true to myself part of that was recognizing that like, I have a lot of confidence issues and that like it was important for me as like a Healer and like being called to a leadership position in a lot of capacities in my life. I'm a front person for a band that's like a heavily politicized band where I speak a lot and like practice a lot of that radical vulnerability with the There's a lot of ways in my life in which that felt like I'm like why am I doing these things to myself? Like I guess I truly am a masochist if like I'm afraid of like stepping into like a confidence place and I'm like throwing myself into like being a front person for like a like local political with pumpkin, but I was like, okay, this is just this is just what like this is what goddesses like provided for me right now. I need to like I need to step into these things and challenge these things in myself. And so that part of pony sweat was also like heavily challenging and still to this day like we have and like I think it's a really important part of the practice is that we have like sort of like a book and framing that happens at class where we like speak in the beginning and introduce the class give our pronouns like really acknowledged like what the space is there for really? I feel like really important in terms of like because Dan spaces, especially like I could say to my experience in Los Angeles are Really toxic a lot of movement practice even me having like a dance background and going into places like feeling like totally totally other and like not accepted. If not outright like vilified as like a trans person and like a queer freak person also like being like this is not space and like really assigning. We also like joke that we're like a lot of people talk about us in like a fitness class T and we're like we're Fitness adjacent. Like is this is the joke of pony sweat because Fitness is such a like fucking gross pyramid. Well because again, it's like this determination of like what is a fit body right and like that so much stuff. I'm sure you yeah, you can see all the the correlation there. So that's like a really important part is this like speaking process to the class then we like do the class. There's like a short break always sort of like gather ourselves and process like what has happened then there's like an end framing. And then we sort of like do some like additional like generally like some for work stuff and then like a space of time to be like still and likes it with ourselves in like silence and be bored. Well, not necessarily silence because we play like this Mortal coil and stuff or whatever but you're doing that question, but like it's a space for like reflection and some softness and some like soft power and some Stillness there. But the these like speaking portions at the class are still a thing that like I have the most anxiety and challenge with is just like getting up in front of a group of people and being like really vulnerable and talk about these things, but it's really important and like the way the class is constructed a lot of the songs like speak to ideological messages or like a theme of them month. So it's like a good time to like Express that like, there's additional levels of things that are being communicated there that people can like get from it what they need. And that's an important thing to frame also is that the space is here for people to get what they need out of it. It's not for me to impress my values on anyone it's just for you to come in and connect with your body in a way that feels good for you. If you want to work through like the ways in which we've internalized fatphobia and like and like hetero homophobia and like heteronormative ideas like that's available. But we also like once said like it's also a space for you to just come and get your heart rate up and like connect with your body in a way, but there's a Like sort of like heavier discourse that gets brought up in the in these sections and that still makes me feel so nervous getting up there and doing it some days. I'm like much more like my little like cheerleaders outfits. I get really excited about it. There's other times like I feel like shutter is going through my body and feel like these like little like waves of nausea like being so nervous to like get up there and I think a lot of it. Yeah. It's related to the ways in which it's been hard for me to take up space as like an outspoken like like gender non-conforming person, you know and inhabit that space and be really big but like that centering of me as like a leader in this position is like I'm really happy about it. And like I really I think like stepped into it in a way that feels really like really good and I do recognize that like, it feels like there's a lot of like valuable work being done through like feedback I've heard but also just like I can see it in myself for sure, which is Most important but that definitely has been like a real challenge for me. Yeah, incredibly confronting for ya and and I imagine, you know, incredibly confronting for the the people show up for the class in all different ways. As you said, you know, I mean, there's all different ways that that that like inviting people to unlearn or yeah, like untangle, you know expectations around Wellness or Fitness or you know Kept ability body acceptability and particularly, I mean like, you know, it's not it sounds like it's not an explicitly clear space but it's a space where probably there's a lot of, you know, just like in a lot of queer spaces. There's a lot of like, you know, checking people's bodies out and like watching bodies and observing bodies and I just wonder you know, I mean, I think that that that's also really can be really intimidating for people in movements in And of movement space sure. Yeah, let alone being like confronted with like a wall of mirrors while you're doing like really vulnerable work to like, you know, and part of this thing. That's so special about it is like our connection through music and like it's really I love hearing my sister talk about this stuff and like the ways in which we connect with these songs that like, sometimes I like songs that are like deeply rooted in like our childhood and like bedroom dancing stuff or they're like newer artists that are like really Lee speaking a message that like be really really connect with the like music is so powerful and so and like moving in your body and this way such like a like it's fucking magic the ways in which like our body just wants to do things to these like Sound Vibrations that are happening to us is incredible. Like there's literally just like a synthesizer can like make me want to cry, you know and bring out these feelings and me with like no words and no like connection to like that language. It's other language. That our bodies no way better than our brains Ville is this thing and let's select learning to like trust your body in that way and just like go with it is like such a like such a powerful experience and like that's another thing that makes this practice like so and to go back to this like leadership position that feels so good is like having my sister Amelia. And then now we've brought on like another instructor a dear friend of ours Chiquita tale who's like an incredible incredible human In as well, like having these two Femmes that like I trust with like my everything and being able to like discuss and like work through these ideas and talk about things that are challenging and like, how do we improve this practice? How do we make it more accessible for people? What are the challenges that we face? Like, what is the language we want to use having people that like, I trust so much to like work through this and like my sister's vision for like what she wants this to be and like what she has in mind. And and the things that like she creates and like these Like Love Letters of playlists that she makes and stuff and like how we can edit / music and stuff is so so special and like definitely has helped me like step into this position having people that I trust to like buttress me until like Build Me Up and like it helped me be big and for us to help each other all just like be bigger. It's amazing and like something that like is super super valuable. All to me and has been really interesting as like this person being like my sister like in this like amazing like profound found family way and being like my best friend, but then also like are like Dynamic of like working in this like professional capacity also and being able to like we have to compartmentalize a lot of stuff and so it's like the really good practice that I'm sure like in your therapy work. Something that you come across also in terms of like not allowing these things to like sort of like they can like help each other out but it's really important to like separate them. So like just in a professional capacity, I'm like so so grateful to have these people in my life that are like so inspiring so wonderful, so it really helps me to to like be my biggest self. Hmm. Yeah, they still have a ton of work to do on it as we all do consistently. But I guess that's why it's yeah, it's a practice. It's not there's no achievement really. It's like just practicing it's practice what comes up when yeah, like, oh, yeah, so and the value of practice is like something that is something I've been thinking a lot more about lately and I think is really important for a lot of people to like focus on because so much like value in like are sort of mainstream conception of culture and when I talk about this and like Not like universally saying this I'm just saying like the society I exist in which is like colonizer United States is what I'm talking about. Like there's so much value placed on like tangible material achievement of like these things that you've done. There's a lot of that burden placed on me and like I really am trying to like stay really present in like the value of just the practice of Creation with no with not like oh I need to get to this end goal. So I need to have this like published work that I can like show people that I've done and be like I'm making this poetry because it's like essential to like me working through some stuff and like connecting with things and like a way that like is a retaking of language or like totally throwing out the rules of language all together and really just like pouring myself into like the practice and like police. Why is like a really amazing in that it really focuses a lot on like just practice and like that's all we're there to do like We're just there to practice because there's so much so much value in just practicing things and inhabiting the space of like Creation in that way with no particular and goal. You know, it is important like to have goals and recognize this thing's for sure also, but I think the like General accepted like impressed on us accepted way of being is that like we create things so that we have things right and thats related to capitalism. And so much like materialism of like you're only successful. If you have these like check marks of things you can be like I made this I did this thing and they're always physical things and we don't ever talk about will not ever but it's less discussed like the value of just the process of making and doing yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's interesting just to hear you talk about that because one of the questions I do have for you is sort of like Else, you know, how can people find out about what you do? And so I want to make sure I'm framing that as like, you know, not like what what are the outcomes of what I mean? Like what are products that people can buy? But I do want to hear like I want people to be able to hear about you know, because we haven't been able to talk about everything that you're involved in at all and so, you know, how can people sort of find out about the multiplicity of things that you're practicing and working all things - yeah. Yeah. I don't want to downplay that like it is like cool to be proud. Of course, of course. Yeah, for sure. I just think like it's important to like focus on like that's not like the sole determination of value and my how do we determine value for ourselves Beyond like financial success heteronormative like white picket fence like family and kids success like just questioning those aspects and stuff. And so I think like I just don't see a lot of discourse on like Like creation of process being like also kind of a toxic thing that like puts this like unfair expectation on a lot of people and denies that like a lot of people are like don't have access to things that would allow them to do things were to like have you know, an art practice that has these things or whatever. I mean right? I'm particularly and I want to get to your answer but like particularly I think for like queer trans non-binary folks, too. Whoo-hoo a maybe don't have access to certain, you know avenues for outcome-based like 6s. But also who may feel added pressure to overcompensate for like difference or strangeness or weirdness and you know, like get a swooped up into like achievement culture, you know in this like heteronormative way. I think that's also something that it seems like kind of Challenging but also aware of in how you're talking about your own work, you know. Yeah. Yeah totally achievement based. That's a really good way to like distill it that feels really like concise and accurate these like, yeah, he's like trophies of achievement that are like tangible things. We can hold denying also the fact that like, it feels like really gate key p and like the way that like denying Like experience is like a really valuable thing for like people and that like if you don't have a certification in a certain practice that may be your opinion isn't as like valid or important denying the fact that like lived experience can be like such an amazing thing. One of my co-workers is like beautiful transform person also was talking to me and I was kind of like, I don't know I was doing this thing that sometimes I do were like I was down playing like the value of what I was saying because of like not being like a trained like having like therapist certification in this capacity of we were like unpacking some trauma shit and she was like baby. I want you to like stop and just like recognize that like lived experience like is you know it at least as valuable in some circumstances if not more so that I was like, oh, thank you like it's important. Like I find myself even like falling into that now, Have so easily because it's like just what their yeah. Well, it's our question again. What do you what do you do? What do I do? And how can people find out about all the things that you do? Well, people can find out about like Pony sweat through like our website which is like Pony sweat aerobics.com. But we have like an Instagram that like as much as like disgusting and like I hate Instagram for so many reasons. It is like provides a lot of like visual. Action to the stuff and we write a lot about the language of the class and like things and there it's like a virtual like explore that I have my own personal Instagram, which is spooky Miller and the underscore at the end and like I post a lot of my poetry on there. There's a lot of like exploration of art there that I think is like I've found myself getting into a practice of him trying to use that platform and like not trying to like sell things but like almost Like a presentation of like public art kind of like as we lose so much like public space. It feels like it's in it's an Avenue and Asterix. I wish like a group if there's anyone who's listening to this. He's like a tech person. I would love to see someone create like an alternative platform to Instagram that is like run by people that are not like terrible monsters because it seems like there's a lot of like censorship and like specific like I would say outright attack against like like black and indigenous. OC and like queer people and trans people on Instagram that I think is like really really repugnant and awful but that said like there is a lot of connection. I mean it's how I found out about your podcast and that's like there's a lot of valuable things that yeah, there's so much nice stuff that has come through it all so people can find out about my work there as well and like I you know, I have a group of people that run this amazing small publishing. And print art company called arts and crafts run by Jessica gz Angel and who puts out like some of my work like my poetry work and stuff and my band is called dimmer deai mber, which is like a word that's not used anymore in common parlance, but has like a lot of cool. It's like a nun gendered noun that has like mask Femme Association stuff and it's really cool. That's where we got it from but that's like The band that I put most of my energy into and stuff so people can check out dimmer. Also, we're in the process of recording like our first big full-length record, but we have a few ups and stuff out right now. So that's why I have my hands in a lot of stuff right now and it feels a little overwhelming but it all feels like it's really centered on these like specific ideas that they sort of all like compound each other and build each other up and its really feels really Nice to find myself seeing the through lines as you put between like my dance practice and my band and my like Visual and like word based art all that sort of like centering not so much always on identity politics, but just like a very like specific like politicized angle of like, I think the gist of it is just that like we can all do better. All the time all of us, even if it's just little things and like that's like sort of the Mantra and the theory that I feel like is like informing a lot of my work. It's just like How do we check ourselves and like constantly do the work when we have the emotional capacity for it to like see how we're part of this like system that is like pretty nasty and oppressive to a lot of people and not in line with like my what I find to be like empowering and like love based and stuff and that like every little thing we can do is like a huge huge thing because sometimes it's so easy to feel powerless. as again like one person against the flux against the whole like systemic like just awful awful thing that feels to me like the weight of the world on us sometimes and I think it's easy to like fall into despair, especially as like marginalized folk and but then like acknowledging like we're we're complicit in like supporting these systems and like where we have access like I like to talk a lot about like, yeah like I have All this like identity tied into being a trans person being intersex person. But like I'm also white and like white people need to like step up and acknowledge like all the ways in which we support white supremacy on time. And yeah, so like all it feels good to have like all of the work kind of like building on itself. Yeah. Yeah, like we have a dim. I have a dimmer song about Amelia and pony sweat me and Mike we danced in Pony sweats like dimmer me like it all sort of like is In back on itself and that feels really nice. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Well CJ. Thank you. I would love to talk for like I mean, it's I feel like it's the beginning of many conversations, but I really it's been so nice to kind of get to know you and hear about your journey and your process and the stuff the really cool stuff that you're involved in and I appreciate you taking the time. Thanks. I really appreciate you too. And I really like love all the work that you're doing as well. So like thank you. Just one more like Avenue for us to like build each other up. So I really appreciate everything you do as well and for making space for for all of us to like have a voice is really nice. So and I really like your voice as well. So thank you so much. I appreciate that. Okay. Yeah, okay. Maybe Maybe not maybe not.
In this episode I talk with the heartfelt and fierce CJ Miller. We speak about her movement towards the dance/movement practice as a Pony Sweat instructor, inhabiting her body as intersex and trans, her relationship to empowered femme-ness and her identification as a Leopard Grrrl, amongst other things. CJ Miller is a dancer, poet, illustrator, and musician. Currently she is the frontwomxn for agitprop Clueless Soundtrack worshipping riot grrl band dimber and plays bass for queer anarcho death rock band Remorseless. She is an instructor for Pony Sweat - fiercely non-competitive, body positive dance aerobics. Her most recent poetry collection LipsTick Vol. 1, a diary and emotional outpouring of intersex, trans femme history and experience, was released via Arts N Crass printing and distro. She has contributed interviews, reviews, and opinion pieces most recently to Razorcake Magazine, Maximum Rocknroll, and New Noise Magazine. CJ is also co-founder and an organizer for Presence, an all ages queer/trans/enby/GNC/intersex community and artist focus event based out of North East Los Angeles. @spookymiller_  CJ has a really powerful self-portrait project that she is offering for print on t-shirts. I will post the image in my newsletter and instagram. The shirts are available to trans ENBY folks for free. CJ’s intention is to encourage acceptance and empower love for tans bodies outside the current model which presses folks towards surgery and alterations our bodies to conform to oppressive binary gender standards. In order to cover the costs of this project CJ is asking cisgender people to donate $20-40 at Venmo: dimber CJ Miller. It is really a beautiful exchange she is setting up so I hope you consider a donation. LITQB Podcast: This is a podcast about the barriers to embodiment and how our collective body stories can bring us back to ourselves. This is a podcast for people who identify as queer or for people who might think of their relationship between their body and confining social narratives as queer. This can feel like an isolating experience. Our wounded bodies need spaces to talk about struggles with nourishment/disordered eating, body image issues, dysphoria, racism, heterosexism, transphobia, xenophobia, substance use/abuse, chronic pain/disability, body changes in parenthood, intergenerational trauma, the medical/wellness/therapy industrial complex and its lack of inclusion of queer bodies and much more. Hopefully this podcast can illustrate the connections, and resonant pain points, that we have with one another. Livinginthisqueerbody.com  @livinginthisqueerbody  The Host:  Asher Pandjiris Psychotherapist/ Podcaster/ Group Facilitator  Finding Pleasure in Purposeful Movement with Ilya Parker January 14:  https://www.livinginthisqueerbody.com/findingpleasure  SUPPORT https://www.patreon.com/livinginthisqueerbody  Music: Ethan Philbrick and Helen Messineo-Pandjiris  ---   Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/asher-pandjiris/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/asher-pandjiris/support 