Whoo. Hey lovers. Hello. Thank you for coming back. We had a ton of fun recording this one. Yeah, we chatted with Kyra Daugherty who uses they/them pronouns Chi is actually one of our favorite people a hundred percent iconic. Yeah, they are are queer and gender queer activist from Bermuda and the undergrad in Montreal and then zipped over here for the post-grad which was in Scottish gender recognition policy and then took a two-year sabbatical just kind of like kicking ass all over the shop. Really? Yeah.Throughout their career. They've been doing a lot of difficult and important work in combating transphobia and sexual misconduct in University spaces hot stuff. So we had a damn good chin wag about student activism burnout. Well that kind of shit in the first half and the second half. We got to the basics of the gra which is the gender recognition act and we also talked about online debate. Yeah. So as always we got you will put all the links that you need for any information is episode in the Description so just chill out pal. You have to just take a seat strap in and let's call it all stays not going so. - I am not quickfire. Would you rather let's begin this long as the right way cats or dogs. The only cats I don't have enough energy to take care of another being as much as dogs require. Okay, that's fair. Yeah coffee or tea coffee. That's the correct on Japanese that there are right answers here, right? Okay, sweet or savory. I think Savory like if I think of my favorite foods, they're mostly like roasts and kind of like Old School summer or winter. So we're ya betta from tropical island. So we care is it was pretty the first few years, but then I got over it and I like summer which obviously Scotland just have so that's a shame because that one day where the sun is a queer or lgbtq+ for myself queer. Yeah. Okay and as a politic queer and yeah. I need yeah. Well, that's a controversial. Yeah. Yeah, so I guess getting into the actual meat of the podcast that's not roasts. What is it student activism to you? And how did you get involved? So I guess I first got involved in student activism when I was like 13 or so and so far as I was super mutant as wearing from very small island of 60,000 people. So really quite a small country and I got quite involved in like environmental activism there. It's you. Things like stopping hotels that were being built on Green Space like old school and worked with actually mostly people in their 50s and 60s. So small way to kind of start but yeah started working with like other people who had like Eco clubs at school so very much like had a green pickup and activism and they went to Montreal for my undergrad and the year. I arrived the whole province is on strike. So student strikes throughout the province to oppose kind of basically tuition going up and that's something that long-standing. It's been quite kept Low by Quebec kind of student movements. So it was really sick to like come in to what I thought was just going to be a hectic first year anyway, but then basically, you know, most of the colleges and universities were shut down because students barricaded the doors and people didn't go to school and the further, you know, I went to marches that had Dean at two hundred thousand people which is more than the population Bermuda and you know, a lot of debates over what it meant to have free education or like subsidize education. Yeah, so, Described as kind of being like going to Hogwarts in the last book are your the first year? You're a first year student in the last book and you're like what the hell is going on? So I had to trial by fire and yeah, so involved in student activism their career activism a lot of work on sexual assault policies and supporting survivors of sexual assault and then over in Edinborough. I came for my masters and then took a two-year interlude working at the Students Association and then obviously, I've been working with student leaders doing activism. So for me I mean activism is just seeking political and social change and then student activism are just students doing that. But I think there's something about that. I find really great about student activism because it tends to be people from obviously not every Walk of Life, but various walks of life different countries different kind of experiences coming together and being, you know, unattached maybe to your family for a while or just out of your normal element. You got a chance to kind of question things that maybe you hadn't questioned before and you learn from each other. You realize that you maybe have more power than you thought or you can use more of that power. So I think student at this activism is kind of like it's a culture. Yeah science where you can grow like different kind of ideas. Yeah. And so I think it's a great Locus for some of the a lot of the stuff. You see change 30 years down the road, you know, people are talking about universities colleges and students, you know right before then. So do you think that I'm like in student spaces went in student actors faces specifically You like talked about quite Hot Topics, I guess like I remember quite a while ago. There was a student unicorn which one it was the started using the word woman with an axe and the newspapers like especially the Daily Mail because the kind of personal my mom is is to shoot his the day now have like blew up about this and we really like, you know, this is all for and but actually that there are lots of conversations that we have students that are very Progressive and it kind of really challenging that maybe aren't accessible to like the Gen pop like if you like that yeah every A job is like buying the Sun instead like that. There are a lot of the time universities I think tend to be like Elite spaces of a sort because obviously this is like a space for education. So even the vocabularies around things and the things that we read and even the reading level of the things that we read is not very accessible to other people. So I think that can be like a downside I guess of student activism. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's I think it's like chicken egg. I hate the kind of Supremacy. Sometimes that student activists can have Like we started every social movements and every new idea and that like the general population can't understand this and running. If you're a marked sister not you have very different views on websites, like people who are working class and often don't have as much access to places like University, you know, it's do start a lot of the movements that we follow and that we work on so it's been chicken egg. I don't think students universities colleges, whatever start the ideas, but they can be, you know, kind of privileged but it also freeing spaces for people to bring that a bit further and to kind of study The things that are happening outside of universities, but also things outside of universities can reflect it. So I do think yeah a lot of things that the places like yeah Daily Mail and all of the kind of trashy newspapers love to focus on student unions here. That's also I think because they know that people are going to fear some of the stuff we come up with because it does lead to social change and it does start this conversation to think that student politics naturally leans more towards Liberation because we're not just thinking what's the issue thinking what's the issue but I what's in the way what's creating it in student politics or student activism. It's brought because there's obviously right wing left wing Centrist liberal radical whenever different kind of segments so universities, I don't think are inherently radical spaces, especially somewhere like University of Edinburgh. Yeah. I'm so you know things like neoliberalism were born out of kind of academic and University like settings and that hasn't gone so well, so it's not I don't think you know inherently student politics is always going to or student activism is always going to be like aggressive and good but I think people who engage with things like the national Union of students, which is obviously this National level student body people whose medical officers and have like the more formal politics kind of rolls tend to be more Centrist leftist. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting we're point of like it's more like Liberation or quality. I think you're kind of pointing to is it more getting at rooted systems of Oppression versus this kind of surface level liberal. Let's just have rights and we're fine kind of equality. So I think that is a big split. Your politics have like do we just need more representation? We just need more policies and rules that we just need more bursaries or is it about fundamentally like uprooting the elitism the racism sexism all of the isms that universities are built off of quite literally we had to add that all up and start again. So I think it is there is a split. I'm definitely kind of more on The Liberation side of politics and I've definitely work to people who maybe have different views than that, which is you know, it's good. An interesting to have representation of what the broader student body might also be feeling. Yeah, okay with talking about like students but especially students faces that are so big like it in Montreal and he talked about how many people involved and how like charged it is. Do you feel that with in student politics you've had like experience with a lot of burnout and we talk about burnout like what that mean? What does that mean to you and people use that that phrase a lot online. What do you think burnout is in your in your Well, I think burnout means different things for different people. I think it is just as kind of like I can't do anymore. I'm done. I'm at capacity. And so for some people that's like I'm exhausted and they just take a break something that people that's like I'm sick leave and I actually need to stop work or school and I definitely like been both of those different points. I don't have great Solutions in that sense because I worked really so involved in so many different student organization kind of collectives both here and in madam, Aaron in Montreal and then also kind of doing activism in Bermuda but from afar, so it's just because it gives me so much energy and passion. It's something I love. I'm happy to give half of my soul to it. But I only have so much Soul. So, you know, I've been sick for the last six weeks trying to finish my Master's dissertation with a cold while also being quite ill and I think it's because I've been thinking working really hard for the last two years doing student activism work and getting paid for it, which is great. And that's actually I think a great remedy for Burnout is when it's actually your job it Help but I think my body just kind of was collapsed as soon as I finish the job because I knew it always knows when it can I don't know if you have this after finals or after kind of a big period my body does to care like I might have noticed abilities. So it's very much a different kind of like area but I find my body stays together until it's slightly allowed to fall apart and then it gets the be does so, you know after I finished second year in my undergrad after I finished my undergrad as I said just now a different point I've had Burn out for sure. I guess how do you guys understand burn out? I mean, I'm definitely the same way. I also have no physical disabilities that like, you know actually prevent me from doing certain things. I guess except for just that tiredness and exhaustion, which I can tell that you know, it affects how I interact with people it affects just like my energy levels on a daily basis and just how how much I'm able to actually go out and like enjoy my life and also my want mental well-being in my mental health in general Um, so I think when I when I noticed that kind of like decrease in my general kind of well-being that is how I know that I've like burnt out and that I really need a rest. I think what I find really really difficult is actually allowing myself to take that rest and I'm actually, you know, being compassionate with myself and actually saying no to things. How do you how do you manage that like, yeah. I mean I think because I recognized my propensity to overwork myself. I've tried to work on saying no and to finding other ways. As of like a burning out. So they're a few thoughts I have one is a lot of the kind of projects if you will the revolutions the structural change. However, you understand it that I have aren't going to ever happen by me or in the next year or in the place. I am right if they're usually Global Systems. There are things that require large Collective action. So I think I need to like it's been useful to remind myself that I as much as I could make a change. I'm not the change and me, so I'm not like I don't need to have that weight of the world on my shoulders is essentially what that comes down to you. The part of that is like if I actually want to be useful in the movements. I want to be useful for I'm not useful if I'm like completely burnt out and exhausted. So actually it's helping myself and helping other people by pacing myself because I think I feel a lot of Duty and a lot of like gills but also, you know interest and passion for to making change, but actually I can't do that if I'm dead. I'm exhausted and second bed. So I think that's one thing is kind of not having the world on your shoulders. The other is having many wins. Like we literally at work had A board that had many wins on it and sometimes it would be like we survived this conference or I wrote this paper or I you know, spoke strongly in this meeting or I organized with these students. So you remember that you can't it Wrangle of like any patriarchy but maybe this week chipped away in this way and actually letting yourself like celebrate its super-important. Yeah, and in terms of saying no, I actually some point had to start making a list and every time I said no to something and if it was less than like say three in a week, yeah I was doing I wasn't doing well, so I think Like actually this catharsis in writing down I said no to this and this is like a win by writing that's interesting that you said that thinking of, you know, thinking of the system as this larger thing bigger than you kind of give you comfort. Whereas I feel like for me so far. It's been kind of like this overwhelming thought that oh my gosh. This is like the systemic thing and I cannot possibly take a break because I can't possibly just like sit down and let other people wait for deliberation as I like take a rest or whatever, but I think a lot of times it is just about like changing. How you look at it and looking at way out of the way you're looking at it is definitely much more help healthy much healthier and just much more reasonable. It's true. Like I'm not gonna I'm not gonna and patriarchy or end racism. Whatever just like my being here. Have you seen like that? The there's like an Instagram post. I think it was that was like just because you can doesn't mean that you should yeah and that's been like a big thing for me. I think to tell myself like recently. It's just been like, you know, you just because you can do something. I'm a big light on. Want to have like a breakdown and then be like but I'll get up and do the thing. Anyway, I'll be like I'll say to my flat my old like my best friend are all like text my girlfriend feel like I can't I can't fucking do it. Like I just can't do it. And then like that is my issue is I wear a wig on and I've gone through that thing like they're light and it is hard like you you feel like you can't do something but then you you know that like physically or mentally you have the capacity to do it. If you really put yourself in like quite a lot of stress and danger and that's something that I will do. Anyway, and that's badass like you've been looking at me like oh no, I feel that damn it. It's something I think like saying no is hard especially like you talk about setting boundaries and learning to say no. It's a process of doing that and I've definitely had times as well. Like I have set boundaries. It's just not been respected. And I know as well that I'm not good at setting boundaries. I think that when you're a student it's doubly hard because like your your work is being a student but then your life is also being asked. On the people that you like doing all this work and activism with it also kind of the people that you're like friends with people that you're dating and the people that you see what I'm in class and they are professors. You never really get away. So it as well as being systemic issue. It's also like an issue in your life and your mind and it kind of gets tricky because you are doing emotional labor warm, you are kind of like even if you're not physically there in an office doing an hour on a clock Lock your they're emotionally in your mind mentally thinking everyone all and that like for me burn out really comes around when I don't recognize when I'm doing work, and I don't ever really switch off and stopped working. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's one thing of setting boundaries which is generally hard to set boundaries for what they are. But the hardest part is keeping them and obviously people can push them and there's I'm not saying it's totally your fault if they get pushed but I think what I've had to learn is also to be firmer and I think what stopped me is It won't hurt people's feelings or fail the revolution or like the about Ally and it's like you can't put that pressure on yourself because you're just gonna burn out and like I've seen so many people who are so involved in these movements and then now they're completely disengaged because they were so in it for those like first or years of school University and then they left and did whatever job and then we're like I can't anymore because the pressure we put on ourselves to know everything to speak in the right way to always action the most socially and politically conscious way and to spend any extra money. Ian time and emotions on furthering the cause or causes is great and it's Noble but it's not sustainable. And if you actually want to for yourself and for your communities, you need to actually like survived and continue and to grow so I think there's something about making yourself take breaks and like that's what I there's a lot of great things about having getting paid as a sabbatical officer in a way that I did volunteer work for 10 years couldn't and finally get paid for it. But other great things annual leave where you literally have a Number of days where you put in the vacation, whereas when you're a student you really have that you're like, it's semester one. It's mr. To and then it's working over the summer least. Yeah, so I think sometimes making yourself be like, you know, the third week of February. I'm not going to any meetings or I'm not gonna go on Twitter or you just make yourself take a week off every two months. Like it's a holiday. It's also important to prioritize what you are going to do as a student activist and obviously there are certain things that are potentially more important. I need to plan for that. You don't want to burn out for Cuz you know obviously there's there's so much that we can do but there are certain things that perhaps we should do if we want to be a good Ally. Yes, you need to ask yourself. Do I need to do this? Especially if you're someone so the answer could be yes for so many reasons of like your privilege in this case. So that's actually a lot easier for you to do it or could be like I'm best places. I have personal connections to the people who need to change their mind or I'm best places. I better giving speeches or writing or whatever like we all have different skills and accesses and privileges that actually can make us better suited for a job. So just because you could do it doesn't mean you can that's interesting. I'm bringing kind of like identity into it. So like, you know, the Privileges you have and the Privileges that you don't have and how that kind of plays into your decision of whether you should act and and so on. So how would you say your identity plays into the decisions? I guess you make and I'm like your activism. Yeah, I think it's integral. I mean, I guess I can probably really queer politics point of view Which is less based on identity and more based on experiences and what counts as normal and normative. I won't get too deep into that. But essentially, you know the way in which the world has seen me whether that be in terms of privileges of being white of being English speaking of being with class. I am going to private school those kinds of things or the like less Screech things like being visibly queer when I was in a very homophobic country Bermudez, like notoriously very homophobic at least, you know, in terms of social attitudes and law and less in terms of like person interpersonal violence. But yeah, I think I think subconsciously I was involved Activism is at a young age because it was the first time in my life. I felt I had control over something by just shouting a lot and having a different opinion. So like we were able to stop the government from building on this piece of land by, you know, using a bit of policy that have like direct action a bit of like networking. It was like really cool to see and like to get my fellow students to sign up petitions the age of 13. And so that was like a benign versions of self-empowerment essentially, but I think going to Montreal where I could really see that Being queer was not just a bad thing. I would deal with but actually a power to be able to see the world differently and to be able to question everything that was normative and normal and actually apply it to everything in the world and also it gave me access to learning a lot about just I did have and the ways I needed question, you know, the racism and Bermuda that hadn't really been questioned before in the world that I am in in Bermuda classes and things like that student politics like just open up a world for me. Sort of like you and you identities and activists at like 13. Yeah. It was like was it your parents at all? It was an awesome teacher as it often is so the one called teacher. She actually was from Montreal originally. She was the guidance counselor and she ran this program that kind of helps bring students across the world together machine running. She was part of it. It's called round square and it was like bringing all these students. It's probably pretty neo-colonial and retrospect but basically, Bringing together students from across the world to talk about things that were just academic. So, you know, there's a lot of pros and cons over the program, but it was cool that she had connections. She saw that I was like wanting to make change which once again in retrospect was probably just being really angry about being in a homophobic place and that sucks and I'm really depressed. Did you know anywhere when you were that age did you did I guess people silly did you know do you think that you had an understanding that you were that you were gaily? We quit I think I came out to myself as queer when I was like 15 and it was also Internet and unfortunately our IP X is now turkey afterellen.com used to be so good because that he's a little videos or talking out. Like I feel like I actually like all like find a cool person and I'll have to go I need to Google them first. Yeah to find out if it's anything transportation and that's so fucking sad. Yeah. I mean I had the L word. I also like, you know, it's to try on any game. Ooh. Yeah, I could stream and I'm a bit older than you. So it was hard sometimes I feel like I can't enjoy anything. Because I'm constantly like is this problematic like and that's the beauty of like early 2000s lesbian content is all problematic. You've ever watched the l-word. It's like the weirdest definitely biphobia like was ingrained in me from early career agent took me a while to be like, oh that show is questionable. But yeah, so I feel like I came out to myself was 15 and I had a girlfriend in my last two years of high school and overall school who would not very happy about that and I got involved in activism areata. So yeah, I've been but I use actresses super broad term like I was Really like this 13 year old kid with a room full of like old hippies talking about how we're going to hold signs by the side of the street to stop this development. You know, it was cute but worked. Yeah. I want to own turkey touch into it. If there's anything that you want to say about the pronoun that is and what went on during freshers week and sort of arrivals week yousa and mainly push for by you is that fair to say, yeah kind of brought out some pronoun batteries that students could choose to take if they wanted to to show like the correct. Pronouns that were the ones that they identified with and there was a massive National media backlash basically and social media backlash, right and the international yeah was that was that like an example of burnout for you? Did you burn out like be honest, you know, I think because unfortunately I've been involved in a few other media should storms I was able to just like relatively disengaged and I also like that week we as about copper statue so much that I didn't even have Too much time that you spend on it, but to be fair, I woke up on the Sunday morning. I tweeted from work on like a Wednesday got like three likes. I don't know how the telegraph or whoever found it will come on Sunday to the article being out and then it was like spreading like wildfire and yeah, you know, I luckily I think realized media is trash and I've always been more into this is it happen? So I didn't I didn't burn out because it was like the first week of semesters. Yeah, but I definitely it was a knock. I mean it was annoying because it's so basic and I'm like, there's so many reversal opinions I have in this is not one like this is controversial. Why are we debating other things that most couldn't understand it obviously also people people that weren't even at the University. We're like saying all these things. Yeah, they were always like this. This literally isn't applicable to you like you're from I like you got people's like profiles nothing like Auckland. Yeah, you'll literally on the other side of the earth and you think that this is battling is Auckland New Zealand. Oh, I was just like I can't understand why this is Is she a TA? It's like a global news kind of trend build pick up on any snow flaky type thing and then they'll spread it and I think yeah, we just can't bother to give them time to take the next day the have anywhere to called. It's like someone wants an abortion or like sex workers exist and it's like I'm happy to be along with those people because it's all reasonable opinions and activities. So yeah, it was annoying but and actually in some ways what's perverse about you know, the whole press thing is the whole, you know more all press is good press This is kind of not true for the most part but for this because it was such a hullabaloo more people found out about it. We ran out in the first few days. And if it hadn't been for the Press attention, I think people wouldn't have known about it. It started a conversation. So looking on the positive side of it all it did it did help people know about them so that when people are walking around with badges, they actually knew what that meant. And then more people need to find them, you know, it was annoying when like the tab did a poll on whether it was okay. They have not go on record needs to sort this shit out. We need to have so there's you know, there's some areas a lot of irresponsible journalism or yeah, you got me. Yeah, I think I think is well they like it was tough because like with all these kinds of things you have to balance the idea of pressing it of getting it's like not attention for these issues. But but of them to balance the idea of press and raising awareness and celebrating something that could be good with the potential backlash that they could be because that's the way the internet works and like you can have a really good thing happen. You can have an awful backlash, but you can even have a good thing happen. But the way that it's reported can be very triggering people or could bring up a lot of things that are really difficult and it's whether you're happy with that trade-off. I don't think that's a decision that like anyone ever feels particularly comfortable making yeah. Yeah, it's obvious. I mean the more people who know about something means the more people are going to be sucky about it is a technical term. So like the more people you reach the more haters are going to get like the more enemies the more right-wing the more whoever like disagrees with you. It's going to voice their opinion, so, Always a downside but also if you only ever you know Post in terms of media, social media or posters, whatever to the same people then you're not spreading your message either and there can be queer and trans people in those other areas that don't know you so yeah, it is a balance. I think in this case I had no control and I was exposed. I just didn't like it was really one of my least controversial tweets, but they just literally Hound Student Union kind of Twitter's to be like, oh, it's a slow Sunday. What can we find Austin? So, you know, that sucks. It and it would suck for obviously all the trans people having to read that and we selfie to me like these people suck but wait for most part. We already know people suck and the people of weird opinions and trash bins about pronouns. So yeah, it was I think it turned out okay, you know good to mate or conversations, but not do it again. Yeah. I feel like we will talk some debates in the second part and now it is time for a break. We're kind of Fashions are actually what what happened. I when I lived in my dad like and throughout sick form and stuff and I like bought probably my first vibrator. I think like good one and I was just like so engrossed in the fact that I now had it, but I was using it all the time every single second that I got an opportunity. Opportunity to just like yeah, I was I was just I was just doing yeah perfect doing what I needed and and it was waterproof. Right? So I would like take it into the shower me sometimes and one morning. I like how to shower use in the shower and like go out the shower brush my teeth put my row down on like the side a wipe clean side. I'm not unsanitary and God didn't come for me. I'm like then just like kind of forgot about it and like fucked off and I went and got dressed and stuff and my dad like how my dad go in the bathroom and I was like sat on my bed like fuck it's in there Johnny. It was as bright pink. It's not like it's like yeah inconspicuous like it's very clear but no he did because he addressed is what happened. See you like he was he was in the bathroom and like I was like I said Sam about it listening little Godlike. Please don't see it. But then also knowing it was like completely inevitable and then he like kind of came out the bathroom and I was heading that way. Figure like Rosie and I was like fuck I was like if he says anything like I don't know what to say what I do. So I just started like the other side of my door. It's going yeah, whatever. What has it? He's like, yeah. I'm so sorry Dad. I'm so sorry and he's like, yeah. Oh, yeah. I think you've you've my dad doesn't actually talk about this. He's sounds good. Sounds no. Yeah, he's a man. He's like, I think you got that you've left something in there. In the bathroom Rosy posy which is what he calls me and I was just like I was there like inside or being like fuck fuck. I'm such a fucking idiot like fuck it. Fuck it. All he knows that and like she has my God has Jenna told I was like, oh my God, I can never live this down and that but like to fair I just went and got it. Like he didn't say anything about it ever again. True Ally my dad a true Ally supporter. Yeah, I think so. I mean like I think a pretty light open my stuff. Anyway, let me to kind of like not, you know, we don't talk about like sex and stuff. But yeah, but like he's aware that like, you know, I am a sexual being because we all are philosophically. Yeah apart from if you don't want to be which is totally fair so hearty. I think that a great things we talked about is the gra and the reform that's currently has been going on and then went through Parliament sort of parliament all these go now and to say That we would be not reforming delay. Yeah delay. Okay. So can you explain for laymen what the gra is think of your average the average? I want to use like a gender-neutral name the average Jo Jo, what would they what would they need to know about the gra? So the name probably is useful so gra sensor gender recognition act. So it's been around since 2004. It basically is the process by which someone. Can change their gender on their birth certificate? So your birth certificate in the UK that you can change it by following the evidence requirements of the gra to get a gender recognition recognition certificate. So you change your birth certificate birth gender like tender Market with that and I'll see your legal gender. So what if it had an f and you change to an M, then your you got a new births to get this as M and for all or most purposes. Anyway, you are considered to be that gender. I mean, that's it's been around for a while because The European Court of Human Rights actually made the UK get a lock to actually make it possible. So they can we change your gender because before then for about the 30 years or so before legally people couldn't change their gender. So you'd always be whatever you were assigned at Birth. Yeah. Can we meet like yeah pop pop in there a Fab and a mob because when I first came to University, I don't know if it were talking about. Yeah, so if you like to explain a fan so when you're born doctors to Our Midwives or whatever you have 10 Look at your external genitalia and determine whether you are male or female based on whether your penis or vagina essentially if you don't then often corrected surgery is kind of use. So on people who tend to be referred to as intersex people, but we won't talk about that so much today, but most people are giving an F or an M said the male or the female see your signs that IE your doctor or Midwife has assigned you. Okay based on this your mail or based on this your female. So that's what a Fab stands for assigned female at Birth or a map is assigned male at Birth. So everyone at least in the UK, this is signed either female or male at Birth and then the gra is gender recognition Act is the law that was passed to make it possible to actually change what that markers says. So right now the evidence you need for that is you have to be over 18, you have to prove that you have lived in your acquired gender for two years and you also need to be diagnosed by a professional with gender dysphoria. So you actually did medical diagnosis usually through A gender identity Clinic of which there are very few and which usually the waiting line is, you know, you're in half two years or so. So that's the current. Yes. That's the current kind of action that's been around since his and for the last couple of years activists have been trying to change it. And so that's what the current kind of debate has been about in the last general election in Scotland. All of the political parties agreed to that they would reform it the basic tenants of Reform are wanting to make it so people under the age of 18 can find. The way to change that marker that includes like that like legally recognized will also be non binary people so it won't just be male or female. He's actually have like a third kind of gender option and also they want to take away or we want to take away the medical diagnosis and two-year living test part because even an international kind of medical diagnostic manuals things like that. It's actually like gender identity. Disorder. No longer is a real disorder. So that it's no longer a pathology. It's no longer a bad thing. So there's no reason that it needs to have a medical element at all. So you don't need to see a doctor to say you have transness anymore. So people say you should just be able to self to Claire. So that means you can just on a piece of paper say yes. I am a man. I want my birth certificate to be changed in em, and that's that you just make a legal declaration to say that that will be a permanent change. Yeah. So when you see that they also proof you've lived in your in the Oh that you're trying to change the quantity required. So yeah the same. Like terminology becomes so when they ask for proof that you have been living in your acquired gender, what kind of proof is that? So I guess full disclosures. I haven't done this process. My birth certificate is in Australia, which is super cute. So I had to find a whole other he's a whole other logic change my birth certificate there, but I have changed my password here and it's worth noting that passports your NHS kind of number your driver's license a lot of other identification. You can change a lot easier. You don't need to change it through Through this process. So I just needed my under doctor to write a letter saying that I would make a change to mail as they think I am my change the male's permanent as all of its needed a letter. So actually the GRC is and your birth certificate isn't used to for that much anymore. But I still obviously is a problem that you probably won't changed around things like determines whether your same sex marriage and marriage married married, you know, it has some some impact so The process is way more intense for getting your birth certificate changed. And yeah, this point of having two years proof like they asked for it. So inconsistent like you read reports and some people get admonished for getting too much information say they have a full photo album showing look, here's me dressed as you think is a woman or just these things as a man and they have to prove and they have letters from their employers their friends their doctors people in their life to prove that they've been living in that gender and in theory like they say the reason is so that you Definitely know how hard it's gonna be don't say it like this, but it's inferred that you need to know what the consequences are of you transitioning. They say it's you know to help prepare you but why would she want to be like that some kind of like troll my violin - yeah. I mean, I think it is and that's I think that's essentially a big reason why we want to change it is like there's no reason why people have to do that without having legal protection or recognition so that they can be protected by having, you know, the driver's license and birth certificates that they need to have. It's kind of just a remnant of we know better than you. Let's triple check and how we're going to do. It is see if you can handle living in the world as a trans woman or transmission and say assumes to be binary. So two choices. I think it's I think it's realistic as a trial by fire to be like if you can't handle this and we're not going to do almost like a ditch Heron. Yeah, their logic is we need to you to have not woken up today and just decide you want to be a woman and then like change her birth certificate, which is a ridiculous but prominent argument on the other side. So they Prove that there's some kind of consistency to your feelings which the gender clinics also do. So my understanding is that most Scottish people and many like these two or three surveys that I've seen mostly supported the gra. Yeah and yet it's being pushed and delayed since 2004. Yeah. So who are the main voices and like what are their arguments? So for uniform the consultation so the government of a consultation which means like organizations individuals can all write in and say how they feel about the proposed changes. Has so they suggested these proposed changes and of self-declaration. So once again being able to say I'm a man or I'm a woman and that's like how you change your breasts to get adding a non-binary kind of category was also the option or opening up 200 teens. So they put out this consultation late 2017. I closed early like March 2018. And yeah the overwhelming majority of people agreed with the proposed changes with obviously understandable caveats and less understandable Gabby and It's after that and during that an increasing like increasingly loud voice of what we would term like Turf so trans exclusionary radical feminists have been organizing quite effectively frankly. So you have groups like for women Scott you have groups like women and girls in Scotland you have four. Well you got so that's like kind of Scotland ones. Yeah a couple of like broader English ones so they came in and have been like, I mean some of them submitted consultation responses, but since they've been holding events, they've been now focused on the census which was a huge area of focus around this question to of whether people can self declare their sex on a census since it's a huge data collection exercise that the country does every 10 years. And so it's very important with that data determines Health policy determines just like State planning. So that was another kind of proxy debate over whether trans people should be considered a gender they are or what's on the birth certificate. So they're growing and growing these kind of what we were turned I would term Earth's are growing as a group of people who Proclaim to be, you know, talking about the silenced women, but are really just recycling old 1970s transphobic feminists and all these little things woman is predominantly women and it is predominantly it has been said in my experience with all of these groups is predominantly white middle class saw the old woman who have identified a lot of the time as lesbians. I think that a lot of the rhetoric that they use Is really on this issue of trans activism erases lesbians and erases the fight for lesbian equality. And a lot of this is just done on Twitter, which seems like totally wild me, you know, there's like a lot of this really seriously debate is being had or on Twitter and it is being put out into the world in let massive massive quantities and you get like pylons of people and people that are tough having these really abusive and conversations about trans women. That's right. And do you think that all this debate online makes it really difficult people to form educated opinions on the gra. I mean, I think a lot as well about like me had brexit going on and people trying to make informed decisions about something that the government was asking for opinions on and there was so much misinformation being spread all over the internet people from all kinds of different places and like that. What will the impact of that being at these these online spaces that The increasingly more young people using hmm. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess the short answer is no it's not a good way for people to learn. I think Twitter, you know used to be Tumblr. Maybe it's still Tumblr. I don't know Facebook, you know, all these social media platforms usually get into your own bubble and you talk to each other and occasionally you like fight with another award group and get your comrades or whatever to attack them as well. And it's always the energy and I don't have a public Twitter for that reason and I just don't engage with it online because it's a waste of energy. I think you know in a social movement, you're not trying to convince your total opposite to your opponent's you're actually just trying to educate and inform the people who are as fence sitters who actually don't know what it means to be trans don't understand why it's really important for a census to look like this or for adverse to get to look like this and that are willing to be open to be educated. But often online people spend a lot of energy trying to fight say goodnight. Julie bindle. He was like a big term and she's super against likes working against trans people also, This kind of narrative of lesbianism being erased. She also thinks that gay men shouldn't be How to use female surrogates to have children so that's enough. Yeah, aren't you know what I'm saying by people don't exist. Like she's a lot of bad opinions. It's like a casino here. But yeah, it's essentially it's just I don't think worth the arguments. It's always you need to call people out and so far as like not let it slide but I think I like to use more of my energy in this kind of not how not to burn out. He's more of your energy with talking to and working with people in person if possible, but certainly people who are willing to listen, I guess your earlier point about lesbian Erasure being an interesting axis of kind of discussion in this so like I worked as my dissertation has been looking at the kind of Scottish debates over gender recognition and the gra in the census debate also the prison protocol here, which is based on self-declaration and also like the gender reassignment protocol so that kind of NHS Medical side of all of this. It's been really interesting to look at. I honestly felt like a whole week or two reading just pure Turf kind of academic work or reports or consultations and I think is always useful actually to read what your opponents are are putting out or to hear what their tactics are and the way that you're talking about because I mean, it's just good as any kind of person to understand your enemy, but also it really shows you where you agree and disagree not that I agree with. Most tenants of turf Dem but the radical feminist part. I do consider myself to be radical feminists just a trans inclusionary one is like really interesting because a lot of what they're talking about does have to do with you know, questioning social gender roles or questioning the roots of some of the kind of forms of misogyny. A lot of people tend to see a lot of tough rhetoric and discussion as being part of a movement for gender abolition and getting red of peace. Really by your ideas. Yeah, so there's some like really appealing parts of what they talked about. But I think and you know, there's like less appealing parts of some of the more liberal trans rights stuff that like, I don't think actually gender recognition is the be-all and end-all. I would love to see a situation where the government had no say in what they called gender you are and didn't assign it at all and that's not even on the table. So it's kind of interesting to hear what they say. But the lesbian Erasure part, I mean, it's the same stuff when so we said let's take out talk about single like sex faces. So like women only spaces to huge. Area of debate so you have things like Rape Crisis centers or you have prisons or you have swimming pools. Whatever it be that's a huge point where Terps are like, we don't want trans women because a lot of obviously a lot of their their work is more about being trans women because they think trans men are just like dupes to the patriarchy so they kind of ignore trans man and then trans women are all like, you know these people coming in and trying to infiltrate to women's faces. That was the exact same argument that was used against lesbians going into women's faces, but 20 30 years. Go it's the same like you can look at some of the newspaper articles in the arguments. It is the same stuff of like lesbians aren't real women. They can't come into our spaces. They're going to assault as they're going to not understand where were coming from and that is unfortunately now being used by the people who were once oppressed by that narrative are now using it to impress another group that they don't agree with so almost all of the debates now have have direct routes to you know, one of the first pieces of turf writing was Janice Ravens a transsexual Empire and you can see this same kind of General notes and the same debates and same arguments as to why trans people shouldn't exist or don't exist. She's famously want felt that trans people could be like morally argued out of existence. So it's all very hyper academic very like, you know, what is social theory But ultimately incredibly dangerous. So it's nothing new feminists being racist or transphobic or homophobic that's always been a problem, but it's been wild to me to be honest being in the And see how much money how much support how much access how much anyway platforms that Turf here in a way that Canada there was this dog is being Sons, which is really what we were saying about social media and you know on one hand you're saying that the third debate or just the basic terms have between each other is a really academic one. But on the other there are a lot of what they're doing is on Twitter and then at the beginning of the podcast in part when we were talking about how a university space is a little it can be elitist and it can be an accessible or inaccessible in a way. I think that having those debates online is actually a good suit or can be a good solution if you know how to curate your feet essentially and if you know that, you know, if you're educated as to how you should be using online spaces and like, you know, don't just stay in your bubble and like read other things and things like that and I think in that way having an online debate like I think that is one You see I don't I said I don't agree with most tense chirps them but I do like the idea of having a lot of the base that you have online which obviously can be very very negative. If all you're doing is just debating online. You actually not doing any any other work beyond that but I think it is such a good way of like getting to people especially people who don't have access to those debates unlike in a university setting or in any kind of like Elite setting or so. I think I really I really agree with that point. In some senses, but then I also think about how like this space is almost basically created this kind of like platform. It's really hard to filter or switch off. Whereas I think if you are going when it comes to like debate and discourse, which is a word that people use increasingly now to describe the kinds of conversations that have been had like you go she was space knowing that that will be there and you consent to engaging with it whereas online I think that because our personal accounts Increasingly they kind of infiltrated with this kind of content it then becomes really impossible to know if you're entering that space and know when you can leave it people think that they you know, people think that they expect a response from you people think that they expect people think that they deserve for you to engage and for you to engage in discourse with them. Yeah and for you to really give an answer to all questions or be held accountable to the things that they're asking of you. Yeah, and I think that online activism and like like I think the whole big hashtag activism and stuff like that. I think that a lot of time can be really useful in terms of mobilizing lot of people large groups of people and building critical masses behind movements and like the surfer accessing things that might actually be housing quite like Ali to spaces and spaces that really are prioritizing people from a certain background makes it more accessible. But then I also worry that now that a lot more young people are using all those bases to learn about their identity that have Is kinds of discussions online means it's really hard to step away. Yeah when you're being abused, but I wonder whether the solution to that should instead of just not having those debates online should just be education as to how to have the debate and how to just know it like no one to say no no one to leave and just kind of maintain some kind of etiquette on online spaces. We look I have no judgment of people who do engage in debates turf wars if you will, I think Upon the previous conversation of burnout. I just need to decide where what I need to be doing and where my energy needs to be and where I most useful and I don't think that's online debate. I think I mean the internet is huge tool for democratizing information making accessible all of this kind of knowledge. So totally don't think you know, we should just take it all off the internet, but I think the difference between debate or discourse and educating so the internet yeah huge resource for educating people for being people on board having discussions, but I think, you know having a back-and-forth of You know with most of these crude like arguments are just like you have a peanut is um, that's your man. Like, you know, it's just like it's not even worth debating people who have no respect for your existence and I think the educated people who want to be educated but don't waste your time. I wouldn't waste my time anymore on like online debating and I think there's also a difference between what are you debating? If it's like some of the events here have been clearly more like here being Attenborough have been clearly more about weather. Trans women should count as well and that's what it all comes down to right often the hate that being simplified terms are like no it's not just about or trans women, but it usually is we can have debates about gender what it means or we could have debates about best way to measure something. Is it about what body you have for some forms of healthcare? Yeah. You need to know how many services are on the country maybe for that. So how do you ask that? You know, you have debates over whether like, whether we then ask people whether they have Services we asked people whether they're discriminating it against his women like that's a debate area you could have But most of the coding that people use for debate isn't an actual debate. It's giving equal platform to a small group of like, you know, discriminatory horrible transphobes and saying that they count as the woman's voice and then giving an equal voice to people who fought for decades just for basic liberal rights of trans people. And so yeah, I think the kind of debate idea comes into trouble and that sense of you have discussions over how to implement things but there's some things I don't Ink that need further conversation, which is whether trans people should be able to identify know themselves better than doctors do yeah. So before we bring us to a we close, could you maybe talk about the haps an easy thing for people want to be a better Ally trans friends family people that they engage with like a simple thing that they could do currently the might help to improve. Either something like a policy level or just everyday life. Yeah, I mean Thursday equal recognition campaign is the kind of campaign around the gender recognition acts reform so you can find out what they're doing. So it's got strands Alliance has a lot of that work and essentially like the government has said they are pausing on their updates of Reform until they have another consultation, right and hopefully by the end of this year. We'll have a kind of Bill brought to Parliament, but that that other consultation will need a lot of people to write in and say what their points of view are. So that's like a very tangible way to engage and I also think I can be sneaky and say to like so much of the debate has become about this policy or about law or about the state's power to Define our genders. So I guess less tangible thing is to start questioning why we need to know gender is how we know what tenders are and whether like the state needs to be in the business of defining us at all. Right kind of wearing-- the ideas that we have about what trans people need me. Sometimes trans people just need to not be attacked or they need to get money so they can live or they need jobs. If you can employ people, you know, get to the real nitty-gritty day-to-day lives of trans people and figure out how you could help with that. Yeah. Wow, there's a lot to digest their thing. Is not the same as when I was punched in the old days was enough the car games and he's with better solve blood I wasn't but I want my mother's love is true. I'm sick of words that hang above my head. What about the kid? It's time to kick off free. Hi. I know my plaster me to go. Yeah sure got right. So my my plus this week and today is literally so simple. I just had a really really good slice of cake today. That's what it is. Yeah, really? In really brilliant cakes work and say amazing for the pastry section in in Stockbridge and it was very very good my apply kind of following on from we talked about Kyra's that is literally just a Scottish trans Alliance and to like their Facebook page, which I'll put a link to in the description of this episode and because they are constantly putting out content that just gives really simple and helpful ways to engage with trans people in and around Scotland to be supportive and to help shape. Keep things going forward and they also have started to offer really brilliant training and skill workshops people that want to be involved in activism and it's a really good way to get involved in activism. That's my plug good one. So my Plus for this week, I think is my cousin who listens to a podcast and their homophobia country of Poland and I don't even have to like get her to listen to it. She just saw it on my on my Instagram. That's really annoying. So I've had to make all of my friends until you say Exactly. She's literally the only person texted me and I was like, oh my gosh, I listened to your podcast because yeah, so so hi cousin. I hope you listen to this one as well. So try it feels awesome. Little baby sounds see that's like that's about she's are obviously really good being uppity new generation of yeah, of course, I'm gonna convert your kid. Am I plug I think would be the teaching matters platform because they're pretty cool, honestly. Lee they're not they're not like a queer thing but you know if you have any any queries about about uni about what about I don't know lecture recording or well-being or anything like that, they've got your card they've got pretty cool shit on there and if you want to write for them if you want to make uni life easier for anyone I guess you can you can do that. I've also read a book for them. So that's yeah. Yeah. Look at look at her over there. So I guess for me my Plus. Is that I submitted my Master's dissertation Grassley past and finish that degree which can raise and then my plug is a brilliant other podcast. It's called one from the vaults. So it's by Morgan and Paige. He's very lucky to have as a good friend of mine and who does really a podcast looking at people in trans history because there are far more people than just those at Stonewall who've been involved. I feel like people just kind of Mercy P Johnson. It's good to kind of know some more folks as and from different countries as well and different eras. So would highly recommend checking out on Soundcloud and having listened. Yeah. Well like them and Dad. Yeah, she's totally insane. Yeah easy access we're going to do the same thing. You did last time one, two, three trans rights are human rights. snake out
(CW: transphobia, mental health, homophobia) Welcome back to the podcast! In this episode, Kags and Rosie chat to true Edinburgh icon Kai O’Doherty (they/them), who’s true excellence is fully celebrated in the intro. The trio chat about the paths to activism in queer communities, setting boundaries, the GRA, and hate speech in online spaces. Here is some more information on the GRA to get you up to speed: https://www.gov.scot/publications/review-of-gender-recognition-act-2004/ https://www.stonewallscotland.org.uk/gender-recognition-act-0; Through this link you can access feedback to Scotland’s public consultation once it is published: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004; You can support the movement for trans* rights and recognition by writing to your MSP using this simple and quick template from the Equality Network: https://www.equality-network.org/email-your-msp/ Do check out these articles and tell us what you think on Twitter and Instagram or by emailing us (Instagram: @whatsqueerhere Twitter: @WhatsQueerHere Email: whatsqueerhere@gmail.com). You can find them through their website https://www.ed.ac.uk/staff/teaching-matters and on Twitter @UoE_Teaching The Scottish Trans Alliance (STA) offer friendly and accessible information, routes to activism, and signposting to resources through their website https://www.scottishtrans.org/ and on Twitter @ScottishTrans Listen to One From The Vaults over at soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/onefromthevaultspodcast It is described by its creator as being "....the podcast that brings you all the dirt, gossip, and glamour from trans history!". 