Hello and welcome to housing our New Zealand. I'm Tom Simonson program manager for LG NSAIDs housing 2030 program. Today. We're going to be talking about the subject of what every counselor should know about New Zealand's growing socio economic imbalance and the resulting impacts of housing insecurity on our communities to really successfully talk about this subject. T' we need to bring Case of Bill Smith from the center for research evaluation and social assessment or Cress a into the conversation. If you don't know K, you should she's a member of the healthy housing program at otago University a research leader in the building Better Homes towns and cities National Science challenge with a particular focus on affordable housing. She's LED public good science funded programs such as Aging in place, and she's a trustee for the Marlborough sustainable Housing Trust among many other roles. She's extensively published as well. Thank you for coming to the podcast. Why do you think egalitarianism matters in general and particularly for councils? Thanks Tom. I think it's interesting problem about what are the communities that we are trying to create and of course counselors have a major leadership function in that as well as managing the communities that are on the ground in either have communities that are highly unequal if you have communities in which poor excluded. It and marginalize that has all sorts of effects for canceled one is it's not very good for their rating base, but it was the first thing you've got a whole lot of people that need assistance but are unable to contribute to the their Optimum ability. So we are actually wasting the human capacity that we have in our communities and for councils. It's really important that people given that opportunity given life chances that allow them to contribute. socially and economically and that's to me is one of the fundamental things for councils is to provide framework Community connections that I can do that and housing is important and that is because housing is basis of people's lives and if they don't have a stable base if they can't get the kids to school properly and in a stable sort of way if they can't actually even find a place within a community so the shuttling in and out of that destabilizes Those communities and it destabilizes counsels of its pressures on those communities which in fact don't need to be there. So if you see housing as the infrastructure as opposed to just housing or a commodity or worse just seeing housing as a commodity that markets turn around. We see it as part of our infrastructure at has both social and economic benefits and a most importantly in the past. We've seen that as an important part of being a fair. And inclusive society and a society that uses people's talents and capacity and surely that's what councils want to do and most certainly because the well beings have been put back into the Local Government Act there in councils have something to fall back on they have the social the economic and other imperatives to fall back and say this is our rationale and this is why we're engaging on this subject to ensure that there is this measure of egalitarianism. So what is affordable housing and why? Is it important to counsel really? Well, everyone thinks they know what affordable housing is the most people think that they haven't got it in technical terms affordable housing. Is that low end as housing that is Affordable to the 40% of lowest households. However, we in New Zealand since certainly over the last decade and actually do two things that happened even before that have now got a problem. On the fluidity of housing for what we call the missing middle the middle income households who in the past with a small amount of assistance could provide for themselves. These are often people who are key workers and our communities nurses teachers in the community in which I live supervisory staff for The Vineyards a growing industry really one of the main keywords in that Community, but they can't get housing. That is Affordable to them. So it's It's even in the rental market and so there is an issue about affordability, which is not just about affordable housing but affordability for key workers and that's something that we see actually nationally. It's not something that's just about Auckland. We've spent you know, 30 or 40 years worrying about Auckland and rightly so because it is a national problem, but the reality is that those problems of housing which we often identify with Auckland are spread. Right throughout New Zealand and all councils really had to front up to those and deal with those problems if they're going to keep the economy's humming along if they're going to get good social connection if they could get good well-being out of their communities, but this isn't the first time that New Zealand is really kind of addressed this issue in 1988, New Zealand Housing Commission said, we had some pockets of serious housing need that. We need to address but generally New Zealand was a world leader in the axis of how Sighing so what changed since that time? Yes, I often reflect on that myself, and I've been thinking a lot about that in the context of the National Science challenges and I reflect on it too when I've been overseas because I used to be able to go and seize and I talk about serious housing as a I'll puff unit young got a problem. They again don't worry about it. Now. We are so far behind even where there is it's a Need to be that there are housing crises. We haven't got the tools. So there has been made me think about my counsels really have been the Martians of that is because we're such a small Society in such a dispersed Society. So it was Consolidated as a national function really cancels with beginnings of social housing in New Zealand. / Tony has rather they provided some public housing and so forth, but we are Council really became first in the 1950s 1960s was through providing pensioner housing and interestingly enough in those days. It was really for Old Men. It was for men who weren't attached to families and they've been working out in the outback and they'd been doing forestry or building roads and dams and things they'd come to town because they've retired they had high mileage because very challenged physically, but also the probably had a lifestyle that was pretty challenging to And they need a places to live and and the council housing was really one way of meeting that whereas of course since then it's shifted towards providing for women and that's partly because women live longer but it's also partly because of the way in which women are also vulnerable in terms of their economic conditions often they have poor income. So if they don't get into housing early as part of a family then they actually are even more straitened circumstances there many men. So but what happened really was a partnership about providing housing for a specific group of people that the state didn't want to provide centrally as part of the state housing all of that Capital funding but it has really disappeared light much of the funding that went into the community sector and there's been a huge drop-off. From 1990 on and along with that the building industry is no longer producing affordable housing at that low end of the magnet was good, but it was well performing has it's not bad housing. It's just for affordable modest housing. There was a group within the building industry that did that and in the 1960s or they're around you would have, you know, 30 40 percent of the new builds done. At that love those lower court has no value. So what the council's do about that. I don't think provision them direct providing. I'm not saying they should be selling up the opinion of stock. I have to say quickly because I know that is a tendency. I don't think that's always a good solution. I can understand why some councils would do that particularly under the new income real interrelated rents that there's been some anxiety around that so I'm not talk about selling out but counsel certainly can But a provide a better framing of housing program that they than they have in the past and I think you can see some councils who have been very very active in creating funding mechanisms that have allowed Community trusts to be funded to provide affordable housing Queenstown lake has an obvious one and they've been very very clever at it. They've been very successful at it hasn't cost the council lot, but it's made sure that they've got the key workers, who are Low-income workers actually in that community and tourism so let me jump on that point just a little bit because I do you hit on something that I think every counselor might want to know a little bit more about is that framing the feeling is that the Brave and that they put their own Community First and they think about the public good in a very broad sense. So they go back to the idea of if you're going to have a thriving economy if and if Going to and protect the environment everybody is in that everybody. Is there together some people might want a some people might want be but the council's role is to try and get some sort of agreement about a way forward and those councils that have been good and housing have put housing into that debate. So they've been they've they've said it's important and one of the things that you really notice particularly under the RMA is that if there's developers tend to actually even though they argue against this at times they tend to like quite clear oars around things not rules in the Old Town and Country planning act rules and a dreadful rules that meant nothing and no one can follow right but rules in terms of certainty if you meet this Mark, we will assist in this way. Those things are quite important to develop as it gives them certain things. They might not like the rule that you've got, but they will work with it because See you in a vantage in doing so that's the second things Clarity to the key actors about what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable. So the two things the third thing is that I think councils that perform well in this environment or this very difficult environment for the last certainly the last 10 years. And even before that one could argue is that they they don't see strategy as just aspirational. There's been a great things all We've got to change things and we've got to have have aspirational targets. That means that we all strive further to you know, perform those and will increase well-being and you know have more vibrant communities the other story that goes for that separation or taxes. Oh, we never thought that was really practical. Anyhow, that was just their aspirational. It's not bother. So the thing that is really important about strategy is a strategy has to be meaningful and to be meaningful. It has have a way of doing something. Tentacle on the ground. There's no Evan lots of strategies that do not provide a clear pathway or a road map to where you want to go. So there's a lot of fun with there's not enough strategic thinking my experience and my observation of both couples and fat central government is we have strategies coming out of their ears and we therefore feel quite comfortable about not meeting them. So I think that's the food thing and then the all thing I think in it is that you want to encourage and enable players to get stuff done. So the issue is not to take it out of their hands. They actually provide that ability for people to make good investment make good decisions and get assistance with a need and there's often a lot of conversations that seems to me about worrying and it is a it is that concern about public money. I know. I think there is a concern you always do have to be worried about public money. But sometimes it's the idea of being concerned about public money gets in the way of thinking about what is a good investment of that. What is going to be returned if we take that risk and there is risk involved and housing is not cheap supporting those that provide the housing that you need in your community high-value housing will happen of itself. It will always the market will work itself out there. It's in the middle and the low ins of the marker at it doesn't and that's where it's all needs to be thinking about. How does a sister to other things that are those? So those are the four if you like principal? Okay. That's who I'm very practical things that I think cancels can do. The first thing is that you need to think about. How can we help homeowners rather than just developers to redevelop reconfigure use Laying more effectively and ensure that they get the cheered benefits of that right not just have people clapping the ticket of that councils. Don't do that very well. They tend to feel more comfortable with developers who they see as professional writing. That's right interesting issue. So that's one thing and then the second thing is when the RMA came and lots changed, but some things didn't end in any District plans. Some rules just got essentially turned. Rover into the new regime and one of the areas in which that happened is an around accessory dwelling units the use of single site single titles for adding dwellings to and so we have lots of opportunities to provide more housing better sized housing Often by the use of accessory dwelling units, and it's a fantastic place for prefab. It is but you couldn't you can't do that in New Zealand really because every jurisdiction has different rules around it. They really are hopeful from the Old Town and Country planning at that are all about relationships. So the council should be looking at that and thinking about the best Pathways to enable people who own their own property to say I could put an accessory structure on this. This is what it look like and I know for a fact that the the science challenge is actually done a little bit of research on that subject to try and streamline and see where those barriers might exist. Okay. Can you speak a little bit of fact that there are these barriers exist and what maybe councils could be doing to address some of them? Well, I think that the very first barrier that we will I think is very widespread in New Zealand is that homelessness and housing need and they're not quite the same but you know, let's put them in that packet together is all about the failure of individuals that are burdened by it. And it's absolutely the opposite in general to that. There are a very small group. People who have always been evident and they and often a very very vulnerable are in those situations because they have particular pathologies that they're unwell in some way. They might have mental health illness and might have an addictions in as the might be something else that's happened within their life history, which has made them essentially withdrawal from the mainstream housing market, but they're a very very small proportion. Ian and indeed for you know 1990, they were catered through through a whole series of housing contracts and indeed through and Wellington, of course Wellington city council was one of the few councils that had an essentially a relationship with government says don't just have to build pensioner housing. You can build a wider range of housing for very vulnerable people need so people in who are very vulnerable have a multiplicity of problems do Needs support. There's no doubt about that. But the vast majority of people that who who are see precarious housing or can't meet their needs in an affordable way and not in that room. They may become a Meg because of their housing unmet housing there that they don't start there and it's a very it's important that we remember that when we're thinking about the sort of sense of hope for people and cancels. It's very important. That we do that and one of the things that is I think very problematic when we get to the very difficult stage that we've got to a New Zealand and some councils will be feeling this very extremely. So when you've got major group of people who are homeless and counts wife has to deal with that and the Fallout of that even to the issues about well, should they be sleeping on the street or not? Could we do something about that? Should we actually put a whole lot of Street Furniture? Designers in a way that people can't sleep on it at night, you know, all of those things ripples through to counsel but one of the things that it's really important recognize is that homelessness is important, but you can try and deal with homelessness, but unless you deal with the other issues about ensuring that people can actually house themselves. So there's a sort of to strategy and it's important that counsels. Don't just think about this as dealing with the most vulnerable people in our community, who are Homeless it's about a broader issue of getting a decent housing system in the community. That's quite a hard narrative because we've been fed a different sort of narrative for quite a long time for a long time. Now, then there's another sort of set of people I think that there is the idea that once you're a homeowner and it's sort of the the other side of the coin isn't it was a few and housing needs. You know, it's your fault. This is the one that the other side of that coin is if you're not in housing need you're a jolly good. Then you've done well and that sort of thing right actually people of my generation or in their 60s now. Yes, we have worked hard many of us and we've had the opportunity to do so because we were brought up within a sentence and housing. So if you talk to people of my age many of those people would have got into housing because they were able to do things like Capital easy family benefits and so forth the problem that we now have around the entitlement issue is twofold one. Is that young people think those old people are cast out of the housing market and that you know, those baby boomers are selfish horrible pill and they've had a good stock of the Savin. When are they stopping us having that? You know, that's one problem. It's not a narrative that I like particularly but again and understandable narrative for young people who are largely blocked out of housing even rental housing. So it's not just about homeownership getting decent rental housing, but the other one is Is we've worked hard to get our house in the way or our home in the way we want or where a property owners might own a number of property and it's the job of council to make sure that the lifestyle that we think that we've worked for and chosen is preserved and Council runs a very fine line through those sorts of things. And so that some of the debates around intensification for instance are about that feeling that that It's going to undermine the entitlement to comfortable use and amenity and rights of people that are homeowner to me. This wraps right back to what you were talking about. What counselors can be doing in coming up with a very clear strategy one that can be achievable one that shows a little bit of Bravery within it and one that somewhat streamlines that you can get your head around what the outcomes really look like and it seems like council is really do need to take their people their constituents on a Journey with them so that everybody's uplifted by not just some are getting some benefit from the rate and others are paying for it, but it's actually a key effort because it takes a village. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's one of the problems because councils have been largely until very recently in the last three or four years. Really, I guess five years meeting have been largely pushed out of the housing, you know got the central comes up for not really your business, you know, the best you can do is make make sure that planning a lets everyone build what they need to build really quickly. And actually we know that actually planning constraints aren't the main barrier no to the provision of housing. There are some councils that I won't name them that have not particularly good records about getting things through plans quickly and getting the processes around consenting both Iram a and buildings and sense sorted well and they need to do that. Let's let you know the very first thing you need to do is make sure that you do what is clearly your business properly and efficiently and making sure people can can you know operate well, but actually the whole councils have taken a pretty big knock on the idea that it's their planning systems essentially the public planning system that has held land back from being released that hasn't allowed Redevelopment and so forth. None of the evidence shows that indeed one the one of the areas which cancels actually have very little control over this issue of governance and the imposition of covenants on titles which is done from private individuals for a private process. So, you know, you can actually put covenants which have higher requirements on it than the district fan. Let's be really clear about then because what you're talking about in terms of a covenant on a title for those that aren't conversant on the subject is that there can be an overlay on Property that requires it to meet a certain standard design and intensity and that actually drives a lot more of what is actually an outcome for a community rather than what that process of the steps planning process that a council might go through that's the initial very beginning starting point for any Council and because that Consulting with the community and they have a broad view about how that bit of land use planning leads to but of land use planning somewhere else. And how they meld together to create a viable social and economic environment covenants. Don't do that in general there about value uplift on a particular site. I think that's something that cancels need to be talking to central government about I can't have have tended to take been sort of policy takers central government, you know, the here's the policy you take it and deal with it. I think they need to be working much more closely to be pushing back on to Talk government and say central government. You've got a whole lot of policy settings here, which don't work for us. One of them. I think is Covenant as creatures of Statute. You'd normally assume that they would take the you know, the the position of oh, we're just being told what to do and we're following through about what you're advocating for is the fact that where these things don't work councils and probably through LG and said need to be a little bit more vocal and highlight the fact that certain places things just don't work and we need Need to address those head on if we're going to overcome some of our barriers. What are some of those outcomes that you see or realize I mean happiness is good, isn't it? Yes, I I mean, I mean, I wait like the Danish modern accent because it sort of sort of collective its model bit. What the Danes done really? Well I think is that they've dealt with the distribution of inequality. So it's a much more egalitarian society. There are some extremely wealthy people in Denmark. There are some poor but In general the tail of you like with the very poor and impoverished has been resolved through the provision of Health housing and support for economic activity. And so housing is like Central to that and what you see I was recently in Sweden what you see is Sweden is going through what New Zealand went through 20 or 30 years ago. Now they've got pushing it back into essentially relying. Lying increasingly on the market the selling off some assets housing assets, which is part of what the community is built up over the years into the private Market that's selling that off. You can see already. They are going down a pathway that we essentially some of the top performing Nations and in the world particularly in terms of housing, but not too late and standard as living room. And now we're getting we've got a major major major housing crisis. There is a You know, we had a big natural experiment and what that means. Is that the lack of affordable housing really puts a break on our community. It puts a break on Social and Health Services. It puts a break on the expansion of certain industries and it puts a break on the ability of a council to plan their settlements. Well because the response to the lack of affordable housing or thigh. You know, even at the aggregate level just not enough ounces is that it tends a New Zealand to push us out. And as soon as we push out spatially councils have to be at the costs of that. They've got roadways as though it's above ground and below ground tential for eat up. Those are very fertile soils, which actually drive some of those communities. I think only recently will kind of be saying mmm, what's happening to all of our good soils there. That wasn't just It feeds New Zealand and also gets us expert at earnings. But also that was a form of income for us is actually they quick windfall gain from putting housing water that really a good economic pathway for us as a city. The problem that councils can get into is that the problem becomes so bad and seems to be a crisis and I think there is a crisis that I didn't I have no, Dartmouth. There's a housing crisis, but we need to not we need to act in ways which I measured and resilient and build a resilient adaptable system for the future not just deal with the crisis, which actually is now so large it's almost impossible just to have a quick one. It's about a dealing with the core of the problem. Not the symptoms of it. If you're going to tackle the cold you work on the cold not the the fever and the other things that result from it. Okay. Well, this is really really informative Kay. For anybody listening if you have more questions because obviously we have a Fountain of Knowledge here. You can reach k @ k @ Kress stres a DOT code NZ. Thank you Tom. It's been great to talk with you.
Kay Saville-Smith discusses, among other issues:  1. Why does egalitarianism matter in general and particularly for councils? 2. What is affordable housing and why is it important for councils? 3. Are there barriers to meet housing needs such as stereotypes and sense of entitlement amongst different social groups or generations? 4. What can councils do? Kay is a sociologist and director at CRESA, specialising in applied social research and evaluation in housing, public policy and community development. Kay has undertaken extensive research into housing markets, housing demand, retirement villages, accessible housing, sustainable housing, the residential built environment and neighbourhood build environments. Kay is committed to and a successful provider of public good research. She has led a number of public good science funded programmes, including: Life When Renting: Enabling Older People's Independence in the Tenure Revolution; Finding the Best Fit: Housing, Downsizing, and Older People in a Changing Society; and the Architecture of Decision-making funded by the Building Better Homes Towns and Cities National Science Challenge. In 2018 Kay was made a Member of the NZ Order of Merit for Services to Older People's Research and Housing Research. She is currently appointed to the Ministerial Advisory Group on Housing and Urban Development and is a trustee for the Marlborough Sustainable Housing Trust. Previously she has been a council member for the Lifetime Design Foundation Council, a member of the Ministerial Advisory Committee on Warm Homes and a member of the Office for Senior Citizens' Independent Advisory Group Reviewing the Positive Ageing Strategy. 