Hello and welcome to day three of the Harvey Weinstein trial on filtered a daily podcast. We bring you the evidence and witness testimony verbatim just as its spoken in court. So we bring you the most exciting Parts the most dramatic parts of the Harvey Weinstein trial using transcripts and voice actors. We reenact each day as testimony. So you will hear what happened that day in court and if you're enjoying this podcast, please remember to leave a five star rating and write us a comment and already we want to thank the person Who told us that we are in fact pronouncing Harvey Weinstein's neum incorrectly, but you know what there wasn't many Harvey Weinstein's are Weinstein surround bundoran or oh my when we were growing up growing up. So we have MS and Michael Henry. Yes, and I'm feeling like earlier and we're this is the Harvey Weinstein trial on filtered and we're going to get straight into the evidence and that we heard today. Yeah, a lot of quite a few heated arguments actually. Yes and quite a few celebrity, you know a lot of celebs. Celebrity witnessed was a few celebrity walk-on Parts a few celebrity mentions. So the in fact actually, you know, apparently Ellen Barkin was there yesterday. I certainly didn't spot her but we were told that but today yeah, we had we had Rosie Perez today that's you know, she was a witness who almost didn't appear that the defense fought tooth and nail to keep her out but the prosecution argued, you know, really for separately. The jury should hear evidence or evidence was very dramatic and not good for Weinstein. She give evidence in the afternoon, but in the Earning we heard from dr. Barbara Zev. This is one of you might recognize that name. So dark doctors as is a forensic psychiatrist and she famously give evidence in the Bill Cosby case. So and I think I think we saw she's been given its kind of her career. She is a great defense sort of us for hire. So she's a professor by the way in Temple University in Philadelphia am and she was there. To explain today why and this is important the case why Weinstein's alleged victims were continued to be in contact or even in relationships. What's the defend even though they had been raped or sexually assaulted by a man? She wasn't in my opinion with you and you know, not that can she was convincing my not sure she scored a lot of points, but we're going to hear some of those points. Yeah, but I think one of the things that struck me that really stuck stuck in my head was if you got a professor of Psychiatry and somebody who's also yet touring the country with you know with these with this research basically that she's done interesting and obviously the defense pointed that out that she actually hasn't published any papers. And yes, I mean you and I we have a few friends who are psychiatrists and they certainly have published. Yeah, that's true actually and that fact that she hasn't public. Red lot of papers, but she hasn't published any so in my opinion, you know, I actually was a little her evidence really sums up the Crux of this case, you know, the prosecution talked at the beginning about hearing her truth. And the defense said we should be focusing on the truth and doctors gives evidence summed up this conundrum. She's claiming something that many people would find hard to accept that a rape victim could write a loving emails to a rapist or be in a relationship with a rapist. The fence is urging the jury after after an alleged after After a rape that you would have this lengthy that so that was dark. That's what doctors is, you know, her role basically in this case is that they know they want her to come in and say that there's nothing unusual to see here basically, excuse me, and people who have been really raped by Harvey wants and that they would then have morenstein that she that they would then continue to have like friendly relationships friend relationship with him for years afterwards. Yes that that actually so that was what that's why she was on top of her job to square that Circle. Yeah, and but I think not Being a published paper I think does is it takes a lot away from the strength of her testimony. I have defense the defense in return it are urging the jury to reject this academic Theory and to apply common sense to this verdict so that you know, it may have her evidence definitely sums up the case. So and then at the end of the day there was a kind of celebrity walk on witness Carrie young farmer New York model. She was a witness for a while very famous for what? But now her major to let you know he's everywhere. Her major claim to fame is that in 1997 to 1999. She did it a little-known real estate developer called. Mr. Donald Trump is he happy literally is everywhere. Yeah. I mean, it's like yeah, we're three days into this trial and it's already we got Donald Trump. And remember in the first day. We had Bill Clinton. Yeah, and actually just to show you how much the mighty has fallen the defense asked for a mistrial because the prosecution Associated Harvey Weinstein was built for yeah that by doing that that it was defamatory basically there was a kind of extraordinary and kind of funny how far we built in this phone so so then so she she heard evidence base he was such as watching an Oscar party with Annabella ski Aura and in 1994 she thought she was jittery she noticed that she had cut herself you know and it was a party and Gary oldman's house and so it was a small walk-on part of this former model you know who but who had dated Donald Trump the prosecution tried to claim that this kind of behavior by her the jitteriness and all that could have been miss gears alcohol more valium addiction withdrawal because she was she admitted to having a drink problem and a Valium problem so you know there was an interesting Mansion also of the actress Rose McGowan who claimed to be he asked them to be a Weinstein victim giving a lot of emotional interviews and press conferences about the movie producer She today a private investigator give evidence that been contact by Weinstein's lawyer in August 2017 and Weinstein looking for investigations to people who may be cooperating with the journalist and almost in passing. He added that. Mr. Weinstein said he was being extorted by the actress Rose McGowan. Although the defense had initially objected to the witness being called they made a lot of capital out of mr. Weinstein saying spontaneously that he was being extorted trying to plant an alternative motive for the allegations in the jury's mind. Before we before we get into, you know hearing some of the testimony just to remind everyone, you know, if somebody has just tuned in for the first time to remind you of what this trial is all about. And this is the case basically launched which launched the me to movement movie producer Harvey Weinstein faces two charges of rape and one of a criminal sex act. He also faces two charges of predatory sexual assault which carry a possible life sentence. So prosecutors are arguing that Weinstein displayed a pattern of predatory behavior and they use the word predatory all the time. They'll be calling for of the witnesses who They are also victims who will help prove a pattern of behavior. But Weinstein is not facing charges connected to this Behavior. So again, as I said, we first of all heard this morning from dr. Barbara the live at the professor from Temple University. And as I said, there was this question about her her qualifications, lets just hear you guys just hear that let's exchange between game on show on us therefore the offense defense attorney for mr. Weinstein and Doctors live and don't forget this is Proctor's acting what actually happened in court, this is verbatim. This dialogue is from the court. So let's hear it a few more questions about your qualifications. You talked about the literature involved in these types of situations sexual assault and you are very familiar with that literature. Yes. Did you ever author any literature in the area of sexual assault victims or deal with sexual assault have I publish any papers know? An eccentric witness For Hire that hasn't published any papers. It's unusual and I will admit I think it's a lot more than unusual actually because I think you know, you know and we have a few family members in the medical profession ourselves. And you know, we know that having published paper it's a thing and by the way, it's actually frowned upon by the way. It's actually in Ireland and England. It's very fragile and probably if you haven't published and I think it's Bizarre, by the way, she's actually a professor at Temple University and hasn't published. You know again, I thought that was very odd. Yes. We're going on to the next section here film. Where is where where where doctors say Gets to kind of talk about her research inverted commas research because obviously it hasn't been published and really what her research is about is about rape myths which are things like, you know, she apparently that you know that people the belief that people that rape is carried out mostly by strangers and I think well, in fact, you know, most ribs are carried up by people that people don't live I think we all kind of knew that I'm not sure it's a rip meth anymore. Like I'm sure whatever it meant, but you know, I thought that was well, I mean, it's well no one no, but I mean she's a little bit one, but I think what she's really famous for and the reason that she's been pulled into this trial. Of particularly, is that she and she's going to explain that we're going to hear that in a moment is why rape victims may not tell anyone about the attack and maintain Communications with their attackers after yes, because it's a friendly Communications because that is a big sticking point of this this this case that many of these alleged victims maintain extremely friendly. I mean, we have to be property and romantic exactly and I don't know that was some of them romantic related connections and I think as we said on the very first day, you know, we'd heard from the defense when they were laying out there. You know that what we're going to be hearing over the next week. And you know in one case one of the accusers, you know, in fact after the rape wanted to introduce her mother to Harvey Weinstein, you know quite unusual stuff really you would have thought so this is why we're going to hear. Dr. There's so let's hear this. Now. Remember this is actors doing this verbatim and we're going to hear dr. Of is tell doctors of doctors of excuse me. I don't have style doctors have tell and the court and about rape myths. Let's hear that. Another common rate myth is that victims of sexual assault resist their assailants? This is not true the vast majority. Actually. I need to be clear when we're talking about rape myths. There are rape myths that apply to different populations the rate myths that apply to children are different than adult females and they are different than those that apply to males. So these are rape myths specific to adult females who have been sexually assaulted by a male. So it is also very commonly. Leaved and wrong that victims of sexual assault resist their assailants only between 20 and 40 percent of individuals and sexual assault that occurs in that rare circumstances of an individual who is being raped by a stranger and some of the research includes being raped by more than one individual at a time. So, these are people who are confronted with the stereotypic person in the dark alley and possibly a weapon. So even in those circumstances most women only We between 20 and 40 percent of women shout out scream yelling very few people run and physically resist other than struggling. It is also pretty rare and the most common type of physical resistance demonstrated by men women when faced with a stranger rape is kicking. So this idea that women respond to sexual assault by verbal screaming yelling hitting punching biting. Lou that happens it is rare the next myth doctor another common misconception is victim of sexual assault promptly reports the assault. This is absolutely untrue the vast majority of individuals who are sexually assaulted do not report promptly the time it can range from days to weeks to months to years to report a sexual assault to never it is according to the Bureau of Justice statistics. It is the most underreported crime does This mean report at all versus report to the authorities. Well, so there are two levels one is reporting to law enforcement that is so as you go up the ladder of intensity becomes less and less common. So many individuals who are sexually assaulted will tell somebody a friend a parent not everybody but many very few people than will report to a doctor or counselor or a spiritual advisor and then the next level up is to law enforcement and even fewer report to law enforcement. Next myth another very common misconception is victim of sexual assaults don't have contact with the perpetrator following the sexual assault. It is extremely common. In fact, it is the norm for individuals who have been sexually assaulted especially by somebody they know to have subsequent contact with the individual now that contact can range from having text messages or email exchanges with them to continuing in a row. Ancient ship with them or to developing a relationship with them even if one did not exist before the sexual assault when we talk about children we talk about the carrot and the stick or I do in terms of how perpetrators gain compliance the stick aspect of why do women continue to have contact with the perpetrator include the fact that as devastating sexual assault is most individuals think okay. I can put it behind me. I can move on with my life. Life, I'm just going to put it in a box and forget what happened? I don't want it to get worse. I don't want this individual who had sexually assaulted me to ruin my reputation ruined my friendships put my job in Jeopardy. I can handle this physical trauma, but I God forbid. They ruin the rest of my life make it impossible for me to go on add to that the fact that perpetrators of sexual assault often not only have overpowered an individual action overruled. Not only have they overpowered a woman physically showing that they can dominate their body often. There are threats either implied or explicitly said to an individual if you tell anybody this all ruin your reputation, if you tell anybody this nobody's going to believe you perpetrators say that to kids they also say that two adults. I'll bring you down. I'll make sure that you pay for it. So there is both sometimes an implied threat sometimes an explicit threat And always a worry on the part of the victim that the individual the perpetrator can invade other aspects of their life and ruin their life even more profoundly than being sexually assaulted now on the flip side of that is the desire remember 85 percent of sexual assault is perpetrated by somebody known to the offender. We all know individuals who are in a situation of domestic abuse those women do not not always leave. In fact, they frequently do not leave and they stay for a long period of time and they may think about it, but they don't do it. Why is that because they have a connection to the individual you often hear women who have been sexually assaulted say they feel like damaged goods they feel like I'm used Goods. Anyway, why not Sometimes women go and have subsequent contact with the perpetrator because they cannot really believe this happened to them. They want some explanation. Out how they can live with this how they can hold onto this relationship or image. They had of this person that they knew and they are hoping this is just an aberration. You hear that all the time that they go back thinking I can just bring this back to Baseline. I can just pretend this whole thing never happened and I can continue to have a relationship with this person and we can move on You know, there are other reasons to the individual. None of us just one quality individual may have other positive qualities and the victim will say you know, what? Yes, he did this horrible thing. But look at all these other good things he's done. So all those things go into play in terms of subsequent contact. It is the normal and often what happens honestly is if women go back to have contact with the Which they almost always do and a lot of times they do believing. Okay. This is outside the normal but we can go back to square one and sometimes what happens is that a second sexual assault occurs. It might not occur at the first meeting, but it might occur six months later a year or two years later, which is each more devastating for that person because one of the things I think we'll talk about the First Response of women sexually assaulted is to blame themselves. Elves it is another part of the rate myth you have done something to bring this on you that is not true, but people do feel that way and then when they go back and if they're sexually assaulted again, they think in Spades, oh my God, I was an idiot. What was I thinking without knowing their behavior is actually entirely expected. So then in what was a very good result for the prosecution, dr. Viv apparently, you know spontaneously brought up ways. people might try and stop a sexual assault by saying, you know, I have my period or you know that the after a rape the people might cut themselves and you know that self-harming be self-harming Behavior which you know seemed very bizarre because it kind of completely perfectly mirrored what Annabella skewer I had said yesterday in court where she said that after the rape and the that she had caught herself and also that you know, she claimed at some stage one of the victims that claimed at some stage that did that they you know, it said I'm on my period and this was a way of getting him to stop so, you know that whatever doctors have denied nobody's knowing anything about any part of the case. That's but that's here give out evidence to the prosecutor Jonah Lucy or barban. This is a an exchange between them. And again, it's actors reading the verbatim dialogue and we will point out that you know this graphic detail. In many of these exchanges but so exercise some discretion lastly. Dr. One can determine a myth being one can determine whether somebody has been raped by their behavior. All right, there have been lots of studies about victim response before during and after a sexual assault and almost everything that I have told you about the fact that women don't typically scream engage in physical aggression towards their perpetrator. But it goes beyond that Studies have shown that individuals in the middle of sexual assault do everything from comply to give a false statement to saying, you know, no I've got my period or I have a sexually transmitted disease to responding reflectively. I have individual who are sexually assaulted by someone. They know it is a disorienting experience. And so they may respond their emotional shape memory suppression may not Will they are horrified or grossed out whatever they may tell you that that is their internal experience, but that is not what is reflected the aftermath of the sexual assault behavior is also variable. There are over a hundred behaviors of individual who have been raped by strangers that have been identified. So individuals may retreat they met in the aftermath of a sexual assault engage in promiscuity self-injury, just behave You're like cutting burning themselves drink. They may use drugs. They may become outgoing. They may become withdrawn. There are a whole range of behaviors. None of which tells you whether a sexual assault occurred or not. So yes, you know coincidental details there. She did fists of questioning from defense attorney about that. She denied it. So, you know, in fact doctors have said she had never read any Articles at all up at the Harvey Weinstein kiss which actually was one of the more I'm unbelievable parts were evidence that yeah, you know, that's not the cheat stop reading when she was given evidence or she's never read any article anywhere and it's kind of about the Harvey Weinstein. So that's I have to say it'll stretch credibility given I mean I got just today. I was just like flicking through like the New York Times the New York Times. I don't you know, like seven art whatever, you know, it's huge. It's everywhere like it's I mean, you know, we're in the court every day and we could see like the You know, there is this like, you know, that's why we're there. That's why we're there at five o'clock in the morning is because like there's you know, 70 70 journalists in the room, but then the what another 200 outside the airport so talking at five o'clock this morning, I'm sure everyone out there is very concerned about our health and well-being and we want to report the weather in New York is improved. Yes, and yeah, it hasn't been it's not quite as life-threatening being there for but we will tell her but we're having a good time today, but we will talk another day about ways to keep warm in the Because we're actually getting super clever about it and people are kind of bonding about ways to keep warm. But am so back to doctors doctors a van fist some pointed questions from Denman sure honest Harvey Weinstein is defense lawyer. One of them interestingly. This was the first day the judge had a significant part in the trial and he was quite snippy as Judge James Burke was quite snippy with both the defense questioning, you know of doctors have been quiet and cord up to then actually and funny. I had thought you know, Seeing him on the opening day of the trial, you know back when it was opened in January 6 and then during jury selection and bail hearings mean this judge threatened to put Weinstein and Weinstein in jail for having a mobile phone. So I thought he was going to become a real character in the trial has been very quiet up to now, but today he came out in his own he was leaning forward very member that is very interesting Lee sort of aggressively intervening in questions during during doctors of testimony. So But let's hear now. We'll hear the defense team led by Dem ensure honest today trying to basically trying to demolish doctors and by asking her about ma'am about memory and particularly this thing that people do called relabeling where people relabeling events or something happens to you and then afterwards you decide to relabel it and other words because you regret it and you then decide, you know, it retrospectively, you know, I'm going to put a new a new name and your name on this. So let's Hear that exchange. And again remember these are actors with the actual words that were used in the trial today. You testified about memory. Dr. Ziv? Yes, and how memory I believe in one of your slides. You said memory can be a I don't want to misquote you it's complicated right that was in one of the slides. Yes. And you said that memory of traumatic events is different than memory for other events. Yes. Now along the lines of memory. Are you familiar in the literature with the concept of Relabeling. Yes, and what I mean by relabeling is after a sexual encounter, the individuals can relabel that encounter as something else. No, first of all, you're making an inference relay bullying is when you experience something and overtime it you sort it into a different bucket in your memory. Well, you gave an opinion or an example of a victim of sexual assault in your paperwork who may be sexually assaulted but not realize it at the time was it was sexual assault for certain reasons, right? Well, they might not realize that it constituted illegal sexual assault a rape. That doesn't mean that they didn't know what happened to them was not was against their will but it means that they didn't know that. I mean people the individuals who are victims of sexual assault live in the same community that we all live in and it's not uncommon for individuals to believe that you say you can rape only refers to stranger rape. So a lot of people adhere to that and so it doesn't mean that they don't know they didn't want to have sex or it doesn't mean that they didn't know that they were assaulted. It just means that they don't know that this is legally an issue. Do you think of dr. Can I have would you agree that an individual could reinterpret after the fact things they had done that they regret? Yes, even a sexual relationship. They can sure you have heard of the term consensual unwanted sex. Haven't you I have heard of it. I think it is the most ridiculous concept and it is not a consent that is accepted in any field that I know of. Let me ask you this. Dr. Sieve. Can you think of a scenario where an individual a man or a woman would have sex for a reason other than love or attraction? Yes, I talk about that in my report you can have sex just because you want to have sex you can have sex because it is an exchange prostitution or it is an exchange for something else sure, but those parameters are set up beforehand. There is an expectation that you have agreed to this interchange. And would you agree that it's been reported on that? Individuals who are involved in transactional sex, although consensual may have regrets about that people can have regret about anything sure. I understand that specifically a situation where two individuals have sex and one of the individuals thinks that it's shameful. They could have regret about that over the years, correct? No, I don't think that that is a common experience. Of course anything is possible, but it certainly isn't common and then they could relabel a consensual encounter. As non-consensual years later because of the regret and shame anything is possible. It's not usual. So most of the morning was those dominated by by doctors is testimony actually and mr. Shrillness and again scored some more points because he raised the unfortunate situation where the doctors have had given evidence in the previous court hearing for the defense in a kiss were a school called, Virginia. Wesleyan was been sued after student claimed she'd been raped. Mr. Chao has read doctors gives testimony which seemed to imply that she summarized it. A false rape allegation because the victim had not struggled and and fought back. Mr. Chao has said this undermined her evidence in the Weinstein case because she'd said, you know so many as you heard earlier so many victims don't most victims don't struggle and fight back because of the nature of rape. So so she in one case he says not fighting back as a sign that's a false rape them. But now she say no, this is actual proof that it is very, yeah. So this is kind of a, you know, a classic, you know discovering a hurry now. In a pretty massive contradictions and finally got so testy between the two of them but judge Burke eventually lost his patience and try to sort of shut them down. Let's hear that and in that case by the way when you were hired by the defense, you didn't talk at all about rape myths did you I wasn't asked about rape myths that's not what the point of the testimony was. Yes, we can agree regardless of that testimony that some individuals who are sexually assaulted will fight back. Yes. So if somebody says they fought back that doesn't mean they are not telling the truth. Does it correct and individuals who false report regarding sexual assault may say they fought back, correct? Correct. You also talked a little bit about the delay and outcry. Yes. And when I say a delay an outcry what I mean is a situation where an individual was sexually assaulted may not go to the police right away, correct, and I agree a hundred percent that that's accurate objection to mr. Sharath. Opinion sustained. I don't quarrel with you on that not every individual who is sexually assaulted goes to the police right away injection re sustain this time. You did meet me though, right? Not everyone sexually assaulted goes to the police, correct and not everyone sexually assaulted outcries on a schedule right? Correct? Okay, some people who are sexually assaulted may wait a long time or never isn't that fair? Correct? Yes. You would also agree that a false accuser may not report for a number of days or weeks. Right? I don't know what you mean. Somebody who wasn't actually sexually assaulted may wait three months later to say they were sexually assaulted from what if there is no instant offense if there is no sexual assault. So then what do you dating that from well a situation where maybe there was a sexual encounter and three months later. They say they were assaulted it. Could it could happen? It could it could happen years later as well, right it could and if a woman is sexually assaulted and she reports it right away. It doesn't make her less credible. Does it know and one of the issues regarding prompt outcry and this sort of covers some of the issues you've discussed is that you don't think you should take anybody at their word for anything when there is an allegation of criminal behavior. Isn't that true? Yes, and you said that to CNN didn't you? I don't recall you said it and you know, it was published. I don't know if it was published but I believe that you also remember saying that the me to movement doesn't educate people about why perpetrators or victims behave the way they do. Yes. Did you also say in a way they serve as I think sort of a shield behind which women and some men can sort of hide behind and not push the conversation forward. Yes. Did you also say it almost has become distorted to the point where if I Me too then. Okay, then you just have to believe me too. Objection judge overruled. You said that yes, you said that I think it does a disservice to everybody to individuals who have been accused of sexual assault as well as victims of sexual assault. Yes. You talked a lot about memory. Was that a question? I think you know it was well, it depends I've heard you do that before. I know you do that to lawyers when they asked questions section objection judge sustained. Mr. Schurr onus if you persist in that I will ask you to wrap it up. I apologize. Dr. Sieve. Do you think that if something happens closer in proximity and somebody reports it soon the more accurate? It's going to be I think that you can say that about a lot of things. I think that that is yes. I think that is generally true now in other words if something is happening the closer in proximity somebody reports it the more accurate it is going to be correct, correct. And if we are relying on something that happens a year and a half later or after all of this attention is that reliable? You said something like that Pardon Me Do you remember saying if we are relying upon something that happens? Year and a half later in a deposition or after all of this attention. Is that reliable? Not really. Did you say that in relation to the Virginia case again? You're distorting what I said the Virginia Wesleyan case was sewed. Is it going to be more reliable close in time to the event? Sure, for example, the woman that I told you 30 years ago remembered the door clicking which he said about that night about the core issues of that night were almost identical to what she has said in real-time 30 years before what wasn't was what she had to eat, you know irrelevant things. So is it probably more accurate her account of those trivial things about you know, what she ate that night ordered. Yes. It probably is but the central elements were the same. Okay, so, you know, it is true that if your clothes and time to an event your memory forever. Relevant or extraneous details will be better. But that doesn't mean that your memory for a core traumatic experience is going to be much different one of the things you referred to in what I just read to you was if it happens a year and a half later after all this attention. Is that reliable? Well, all of this attention refers to the fact that she change her story about the core issues. So it started out with maybe something something it actually started out with her going the day following him and having sex with this guy saying having brunch or whatever with her College friends pointing him out and saying, you know, I had sex with him and he's ugly and then that overtime morphed into I think I may have been sexually Lee assaulted it moved into I believe I was drugged and sexually assaulted and then became I was sexually assaulted I was vaginally raped I was anally raped and I was he forced me to give him oral sex and then it became I was incontinent of feces and then it became I was bleeding everywhere. So the core elements of the story were so wildly disparate that that's what made it not credible. Okay. And one of the claims in that case was that the young woman claimed she had PTSD, right? Yes. And you said that PTSD is easily faked, didn't you? Yes, and PTSD is easily faked. No, it's not easily faked in terms of having demonstrated symptoms. It is easily you can easily endorse all of the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. You can say I have all of the you can list the symptoms so it's easily faked. Well, I wouldn't say that it is easily you have to evaluate every case of post traumatic stress disorder from lingering because it does rely upon self report. So I mean, is it easy to fake real symptoms of hyper-vigilance? No, not really you are aware that in that case other Healthcare professionals diagnosed her with PTSD. Yes, you just disagreed with that. I said there was no evidence about that. Are we re trying this case? No, I'm asking you testified about TSD on direct examination. That is I am asking you please. Mr. Sarunas next question then in a testy cross-examination by mr. Shrillness, the judge finally called a halt to questioning about the Wesleyan case the doctors if you just told Miss Lu zhi and members of the jury that the young woman from the Virginia Wesleyan case had severe psychiatric disorder. Yes, you are aware in that case. A number of other medical providers said she had PTSD. SD as it related to the rape, she claimed I'm aware of that you met her one time right? I met her one time but I had records that documented her psychiatric history and all of her other history educational history social history for months and months and years. Actually, what did you diagnose that young woman with borderline personality disorder. Nobody else ever diagnosed her with that. Nobody else had done a comprehensive evaluation the For our comprehensive and seeing her medical records section sustained as to scope move on and at that time you made that evaluation. You were hired by the defense attorneys, right injection sustained move away from Virginia Wesleyan police. Miss. Lucy asked you some questions about individuals asking direct questions. Remember that objection? No, I don't. She asked you about interview objection sustained. She asked you about secondary game. You asked me about secondary gain. Mmmmmm. She didn't ask you about it. I don't recall objection. I was precluded from doing it sustained. So it remains to be seen just how convincing the jury will find doctors live after she left the witness box that end. There was a very lengthy back and forth between the prosecution lawyers and the defense about the admissibility of actress Rosie Perez as a witness. Obviously the prosecution really wanted her and the defense didn't yes what eventually happens? Well, then let's well, let's remind people who Rosie Perez is she is oscar-nominated actually correct oscar-nominated actor. Yes, she was in we believe she was in do the right thing the opening scene our sound engineer here who's up with everything but what the young people for the young people and all the celebrity gossip tells us know so she's and she's too many as if I mean if you look her up online you ever want to recognize or she's a very recognized was impressive in the witness box. She was small she was diminutive. She was you know feisty when she had to be but mostly she answered the questions, you know, it wasn't a good witness for the defense. And actually the whole argument was originally she wasn't allowed in but According to the prosecution the defense opened the door by challenging on a ballast Geass credibility. So then they could bring in this person who could then bolster the cannibals and the judge agreed with them. So it was kind of an own goal by the defense, but let's hear it but let's hear this. So first of all, we're going to hear from the prosecution questioning and Miss Perez about her relationship with Annabella skewer and about what you know, what she remembered happening back in in the in the 90s, so Let's hear that again. We've got some actors playing the roles here, but this is the words that were used in the court today. Directing your attention to a night that she was living in The Gramercy Park apartment and you called her to go out with you. But the conversation between what I have to direct her to a point overruled, go ahead. Do you recall that moment? Yes, I do. Do you recall the day specifically or even the year specifically? I don't know the date. No, but I would say it was probably around 1993. Why did you call her on that particular evening? To hang out to go to a nightclub that fun and can you tell the jury to the best of your recollection what that conversation how that conversation went. I called her up. I was in pretty jovial mood. Hey Annabella, what's up? One day if you wanna hang out and she was talking in this very strange whisper voices if she was hiding from someone I said what's wrong with you? And she said I think Something bad happened and I said, what do you mean something bad to happen? What happened? And she said I think I was raped and the way she said it was so strange because she was still whispering and she said I think I was raped in her voice started Shakin and I said that do you think or did it happen and she goes I think it was rape and she started crying and I said, well who did it? Do you know who did it? And she said I can't I can't I can't that I could hear. Crying I said what happened? And she said I woke up on the floor and my nighty was up and it was a family heirloom. She started crying and said I can't I can't I gotta go. I said wait wait wait, you have to go to the police? Are you? Okay? I can't they can't and she hung up the phone and I kept trying to call her back all night long and I was so upset than she. When I pick up the phone was miss yours tone of voice different than her tone of voice was usually very very very different. It was very different now Miss Perez. Did you have an opportunity in these last few months of 1994 to have a conversation with Annabella she Aura when she was in London yes or no. Yes, and at that time after having your conversation initially with Miss Yura, did it occur to you that you might know the identity of the person that She Aura said raped her in the months before she went to London objection. Yes sustained as to the way you asked that question. Okay, I'll try again. How long after your initial conversation with Miss Yura when she had that low voice and told you that she thinks something bad happened to her that conversation how long had it been between that conversation and the conversation that you had with her in London? It was several months later. Yeah, it was several months later. What did miss your a tell you this time about what happened to her those months before or what happened to her the time she told you those months before happened to her in New York. Just tell us please. What did she say about what happened to her in New York those months before she told me that it was in fact Harvey Weinstein that raped her. She told me that he showed up at her door and she was Confused why he was there standing there and that he pushed his way through the door and she was crying and saying I tried to fight back. I tried I tried and then she said that she ended up in the bedroom with her hands pinned over her head and that he raped her and then he pulled out and you have to just say it. He came on her leg. And on her nightgown and I said, oh the family heirloom. And she was crying and she said yes, and she swore to me never to tell anybody and I told her that you should go to the police. Please go to the police and she said I can't he's destroying me he's Gonna destroy my career objection overruled next question. Have you remained friends with miss your essence? Yes. So if you're enjoying this podcast, we would really appreciate your support. You can donate at the unreported story society.com and we're dependent on the kindness of strangers to keep us on the road. We think that people are really enjoying the podcast. So, please help us out by going to the underreported story society.com and all your all your Nations will be tax deductible. Yeah, we really appreciate that. This this is is an expansive but important task we're doing and we appreciate all your help. So today I you know in conclusion, you know after that dialogue I would say today wasn't a great day for the defense, but they did get a few wins from prosecution witness Rosie Perez, you know, and I do think you know, again we talked about this over the last, you know, we've mentioned this a few. Two times that it was mentioned by the defense that you know, they're talking to the jury the jury Army, you know, this is a jury of ordinary people. This isn't a jury of experts and so, you know these Ordinary People need to need to think the things that make sense things need to make sense and I have to say I thought this was a little bit of a win actually for the defense because there was a there was an aspect of this Rosie Perez story that just did not make sense. So we're just going to we're going to hear that first and then we little talk about it afterwards, but I just think This was a little bit of a win in terms of common sense. So let's just hear that now and then let's talk about it. So to be fair when you called her and she said I think I was raped you didn't know if she was talking about something that just happened. Did you what do you mean in other words? She didn't say I think I was raped a week ago. She said I think I was raped right? She didn't give a timeline. So is it fair to say in your mind calling a friend to go out? She could have been talking about something that just occurred, right? I don't know. Well, she said I think I was raped she sounded according to you. She was talking in a whisper, right? Yes. She sounded scared. Yes. She told you that she thinks she was raped and then she woke up in her heirloom. Nightgown was pulled up right? Can you repeat that please sure when she whispered she thought she was raped she told you when she woke up her heirloom nightgown was raised. Yes objection to the phrasing of that. Old. So again, you didn't know if that was something she was saying happened a long time ago or just at night, right? I don't know depends. Well, if one of your best friends calls you up and says I think I was raped and they sound scared you yourself would have been nervous right? You would have been worried for your friend. Yes. I'm Jackson speculation. It's not overruled. You would have been worried for your friend. I was worried for my friend. You didn't know somebody had hurt her. Correct. That is correct. You didn't know if she was injured at that time when she called you right? Right. I assume she was okay, you didn't go over to her apartment did you know because she would not pick up the phone? Well, your friend just told you that she thinks she was raped hangs up the phone. You did not go to check on her didn't go to the apartment. How did you call the police she told me I told her you should call the police. She said no I can I can I can so when the phone is hung up. You are sitting there thinking my friend may have just been raped. Correct? Yes. You said you called a couple of times? No, I was not thinking she may have been raped. I was thinking she was raped maybe that day. I don't know if it was that day. I did not say that you didn't go over there. I didn't. Over there because she would not pick up the phone and I was very upset. I was very very shook myself. We covered you did not call the police or fire department, correct? She did not I didn't you didn't know I did not anyone listening there. I mean anyone listening there anything you think you've just you phone your phone a dear friend a dear friend like the best one of your best friends to friends has this voice like a terrified voice says that been raped obviously doesn't specify when but it seems like it's obviously just happened because of the fact that the voice is gone really low and should matter previous to that and nothing good happens with this issue sounding totally different and you're in New York. She's in New York. Like you're just a really fun. You're both from Brooklyn. Planning, you know your jaw cross cut down. By the way, this is New York everything. It's so easy, you know, it's easy to do things here, you know in terms of getting from one place to another you just jump a hop in a cab and stuff and you know, the fact that she didn't move you know, that she didn't move that. She left your friend and this incredible State and all you got to do by the way is okay. She didn't answer the phone right? Here's what I would do I jump in a cab you just jump in a cab by the way, just get over there knock on the door and say hey let me and well, let's talk about of the are you our go to the doorman because there's a doorman on the building, of course as as Harvey Weinstein, Kings lawyers pointed out in yesterday's hearing, you know, he could not have got the 17th Floor without compassion drama. So you go there and you get the dorm on the phone up and say your friends down here. Shall I send her up? She didn't do that and you know, it's this lack of curiosity this lack of action that you know, and you think it's well, I mean somebody's voice sounds terrified, you know, and she's not answering the phone to you know, I have to I think most of us would phone the cops by the way and by the way that you know, it's not like, you know, yeah, this is when you do fall in the Cubs, by the way you The cops for something like this you say my friend has been on the phone Chimes terrified. She's been on your phone their mother or your phone their brother or you go. Well you go over you go over. Let's take a walk over. I think you definitely won't work. If you don't think that night you go over the next night. Either way, you're safe enough, by the way, because you are actually in a building where there is a doorman is to go into the doorman. You set a doorman when you come up with me, by the way, I'm a bit scared. I think something's happened or by the way. You know what I'm going to stay here in the lobby. Would you go up and check on her? Would you just do a just do a quick check check that she's also so that I have to say that was a guy that landed well for me. So basically we came to the the end of the day the jury were excused for the weekend. They were told again not to read anything. Don't read the newspapers don't discuss this case with anyone on funny. We were standing on the street. I saw some of the jurors coming out and I remember thinking I remember thinking, you know, it's very challenging by the way it is. I mean, it's really difficult. How do you keep your mouth shut you don't know how do you not reading it? Unless your doctor's if who's got this amazing transcendental ability to ignore everything is going around by the way. She's not the only one by the way because actually Rosie Perez is also taught that ability because they weren't she was also asked today. She was asked, you know. Did you know the Annabella skier? I give evidence yesterday. Oh, she didn't know anything about that. She did us because their stories were remark less with the defense. Demon. Sharona says your story is your story your story and Annabelle should see our as story with from 27 years ago are remarkably similar like the have not learned any sooner. Did you did you compare notes? She goes, you know from her testimony is just Why didn't even know she was giving yes. I didn't even see her one of your best friends giving testimony in the Harvey Weinstein trial about her rip what you You know something about and she didn't tell you she was giving evidence and she didn't see the news as well. By the way. She hadn't seen the new so she you know, so it unlike the rest of us. She's very disconnected. So does a little bit of data on the prosecution side. You have a number of witnesses who seem to be very living sort of basically actually somehow in the 90s actually before the internet kind of thing or the interwebs. But so yeah so so but as I said yet so the judge said admonished the jury and said, whatever you do don't talk to anyone and don't be reading the newspapers and don't be looking at the news. We however would say to you you are not in that position. So, please do share this podcast with your friends. Please do talk about the case and write to us. You can give us a racing. Obviously. We were recommending that you give us a five star rating. Yes and and leave us a comment and be in touch. And again, if you could give us a donation we would so appreciate that the unreported story society.com and on tax all of your donations are tax-deductible. We're going to be back next week starting Monday starting Monday. It's I mean, it's tough getting up at 5 a.m. And standing in the cold. And three or four hours, but I have to say it's really worth it. It's that once you get into the once you get into the courtroom. I have to say there isn't any difficulty with staying, you know, very focused because you know, there aren't it is there is never a dull moment. Yeah. Well, it's the world's worst Acoustics to recap you have to stay focused you can bear it son is it's very difficult to make but saying and you know, and this was you know, there's not that much levity in there either. I think that was the biggest laugh today actually biggest laugh of the trial was when he the the defense attorney. Have Rosie Perez a run of the Pharaohs book to read to compare what you said there what you said at that angle to my phone, but and was your prayers looks around the courtroom is does anybody have any reading glasses? Oh, yeah, exactly. And again again mentioning Ronan Farrow as we said as we said yesterday, you know, it's a very interesting thing that the guy who kind of basically sort of started all of this is nowhere to be seen. He's not in the courtroom, but he's given lots of interviews elsewhere and make His own podcasts and making and podcast putting the button interviewing other people but you know, it's different interviewing someone here and podcast room where there's no you couldn't there's no documents to contradict them. There's no cross examination and they don't have to produce any evidence. There's no consequences to lying. I mean if you're in a courtroom, so you're not you are red wires wife. Some of these journalists don't like quartz. This is why I like quartz is because it forces people to only talk with Evans not talk about emotions are spin stories and But having said that I think the prosecution had a very good week it started off bad. I think the opening day was bad for them. But since then they've had a couple of really good days for planting some pretty harrowing stories and images in the jury's mind. They'll find hard to shake off and what it's going to be. It's a marathon not a Sprint. It's a marathon not a Sprint and I you know, we could report that Harvey Weinstein looks as bad as the images that you're seeing when you are here when you see this on the television today Branson and show you saw the It came in the first day. You look very tired and Droopy and don't know the but boy was he paying attention yesterday and today I like today. He was he was studying more focused on he says he's writing notes all the time like furiously writing particularly yesterday with Annabella. She or he was he was he he wrote continuously and when they asked her actually I was I noticed that was really interesting when they asked him, you know - scuse me when they asked her to identify him in the court and she actually stood up dramatically and so Adam he actually I don't know if you spotted that he kind of lifted his hands in a little can. You know, he lifted his hand off the table in a kind of a you know a salute to her, but she wasn't she was very she know she was very studious leak avoiding looking at him and all of that. But anyway, so we're looking forward to next week and we're looking forward to continuing to to really win on this and to tell you the story again, as I said, please go on and on the podcast whatever podcast platform you're looking at this you're listening to this and give us five. Are raising please and lead of leave a comment and be in touch and don't forget to donate. Thanks so much. All the best. Bye. Bye. Today's podcast is produced by unreported story society and Magdalena sagada and Raquel, lermontov theater planners written and presented by failing McAleer and Anne McClain e directed by kif Shoal Jonah Lucy or bond is played by Michelle Gardner Judge James Burke is played by Thomas. Vasila, Rosie. Perez is played by Lizzie Pete Damon sure onus is played by David stem bra. You and dr. Barbara XIV is played by Tina van Berkel are edited by Mercury Meehan engineered by Rob Reider.
Day 3 of the Harvey Weinstein trial was filled with drama and surprises! And there was another celebrity witness today with the appearance of Oscar nominated actor Rosie Perez - she was the witness who almost didn't appear. The defense fought to keep her out of the courtroom but the prosecution argued just as vociferously that the jury should hear her evidence. Her evidence was damaging for Weinstein in that it backed up some of Annabella Sciorra's testimony from the previous day. Dr. Barbara Ziv, a forensic psychiatrist, also gave evidence. She was called by the prosecution to explain to the jury why Weinstein's alleged victims would continue contact or have friendly or even romantic relationships with the defendant even though they had been raped by him. Her theories are controversial and it remains to be seen whether the jury will be convinced by Dr Ziv. And just at the end of the day there was another celebrity witness. Kara Young, a former New York model, gave evidence. Young's major claim to fame was that she dated a Mr Donald Trump for two years in the late nineties. She told the court that when at an Oscar watching party in March 1994 she notice Annabella was acting strangely and was jittery and that there were long cuts on her upper thighs and that she asked Sciorra if she had been cutting herself. The testimony from Day 3 is quite compelling and we hope you enjoy the third installment in our series. If you enjoy this podcast, please send your tax-deductible gift to the Unreported Story Society at TheUnreportedStorySociety.com. 