Look guys, welcome back. This is the further discussion episode with Gigi. So basically all I knew about Gigi prior to speaking with him was that he was someone that I connected with on Twitter and that he had these two great resources 21 lessons.com and Bitcoin - resources.com. The ladder is just an aggregation of all sorts of different resources around Bitcoin books articles podcasts Etc. The former is His own writings about his education process through Bitcoin both are excellent resources. If you want to learn more about Bitcoin, even the oh jeez out there. There's very likely something contained therein that you might learn that you don't already know. I went through both of the resources extensively and I definitely picked up a few things that added to my understanding of the way. I was looking at Bitcoin and this in this space as a whole so definitely check those resources out in this conversation. We just shot the shit to people that are super into Bitcoin having a discussion. I really enjoyed We talked a lot about the narratives of merging around Bitcoin and speculated on the future and just a really fun chat with two people that are clearly passionate about this space. So that's it. I hope you enjoy. Yeah, sorry again for the I'm usually I'm usually we like way more prepared, but I don't know if you saw it on Twitter like a couple of hours ago we had Fantasy football league going on with meddled a landmark event. Then this is definitely Vera and I'm part of that and I'm the only one who is in Europe. So I was up until like 4:30 or something. No, I didn't see that like fantasy NFL. Yeah nice. So so, you know, they all pick the time where where it's comfortable for them, of course, and so I just I just stayed up until 4 a.m. And I just like I don't know three four hours. Well, I'm sorry to drag you out of bed after all the otherwise, it's my own fault because because I said yes to the fantasy football thing. Yeah, I'm feeling good. All right, good.you. Got some coffee in you. Yeah, good good woman. Thanks for for getting out of bed and taking the time to do this today. I obviously we connected recently on Twitter and you know, I don't have to tell you this but for anybody. be listening, you know Bitcoin Twitter is such a amazing place, you know so much goes on in this there's so many people that you end up connecting with that share a lot of opinions, of course, but also attack things from different angles and have decided to kind of devote their obsession with Bitcoin down certain like, you know productive means let's say and with you, yeah, I guess you actually I guess before we get going with everything just to introduce yourself to the extent you want to but more importantly Couple of resources that you've developed in the space to help, you know, you're as a part of your contribution. Yeah. Sure. Hmm. I I'm not sure if there's too much to say about me. I'm just a regular Bitcoin knife if there's such a I think I put myself on the map because I decided to write about basically what I've learned and this culminated in 21 lessons.com. Because I thought why not? Well, I'll tell you the story ended because it's a good one. I think I tried all of this started when I try to to answer a tweet think it was assumed Balaji. I don't even I'm not even sure if I have it right from the top of my head and someone I think it was him tweeted. What have you learned from Bitcoin? And I was like, yeah, I can answer that. The tweet and I just was not able to know like no matter what I tried it always was at least like four or five tweets. And so I was like might be worth writing it down just for myself because I learned so much and yeah, I would say my life also changed so much because of falling down to the primary goal that I just started writing about it and I quickly realized that I even have to we'll have to split up the article because it It's just way too much. Yeah, and so I decided yeah doing a series on that sand when I was stuck with the first one which was the philosophical teachings of the time. I landed on seven things that I've learned learned and so it quickly came to my mind. I'll just do three of those and then I'll have 21 and that's that's the origin story. And what lessons right answer. Sorry good and yeah, so while writing all this sand The last couple of years I really fell yeah fell down the rabbit hole quite deeply in the way and I keep a list of all the things I read I did it before I got into Vietnam and I also keep a list of all the books I read. So it was quite easy for me to gather all the resources that I've wrapped in the last couple of years again, and that's how I created between resources that come with just basically my handpicked selection of Articles and books and also podcasts and select the podcast episodes. Right and it's very extensive. So, you know, if anybody out there is listening and there are looking for additional resources to learn more. I mean, it's definitely a good spot. You have books and articles and podcasts and all sorts of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, and I will I will always about I I try at least to updated periodically so there's always good stuff coming out and I still have like 50 books to to go through and I'll update the list or the resources as I as I get to it, but I also want to open it up quite soon. I mean it is open source already, but it's not not especially like it's not exactly easy to contribute right but I have something in mind where this might be more of a Community Driven thing in the years to come cool. So I mean we when we think about things like Resources and how to learn more about Bitcoin all that kind of stuff. It's at least part of it is because we want to to supply the necessary materials for other people that are either looking for more information and up. And of course, I think I speak for all of us when I say a part of us is also putting it out there because we want people to kind of catch the virus, you know, if we want to make it super easy, like look at all these resources whichever one appeals to you just get started and you know, we kind of hope maybe you'll Start seeing the light as it were but before and I've got a ton of questions in that regard for you, but before I get into those, like what was your aha or come to Jesus come to bitcoin moment three or four years ago as you mentioned, I had multiple I think and I was the one so it was it was really like hooked you the key like hooked you the hardest I bought in like before I understood anything. Thing because I felt like I missed the boat a couple of times already. Yeah, I had to touch base with big tight like three or four times and it's maybe it's because I'm a slow learner, but I got introduced to it from a really weird angle a friend of mine was building shit coins in a way. He was building block chain based projects in like 2013-2014 so that when I first really heard of it I've heard of it before but But not well not I've heard it from up from other friends and mostly in relation to so growth and by yeah, it's online but I never gave it as a more serious thought and I also got a little bit just I don't even know why I don't seriously I don't even know why I'm like, yeah, I'll have some of the magic Implement and my first reaction. Real aha moment was yeah shifted my perspective about proof of work and I wrote about that at a later point. I'm like I wrote about it some years later because I was in the same campus as most people I would say that her did hear of it first. It's like, you know, it's really an efficient quote unquote wastes a lot of resources stuff like that and understanding that in the better way like I understand. That understanding proof of work at a deeper level was my first aha moment for sure. And well, I guess now's a good time to ask what come back to some of the other stuff. But what was your aha about proof of work? Well, it's basically it's not energy wasted its energy put to very good use and like understanding that I I had like two or three aha moments before cologne, I think. But it's probably many more to come. Yeah, probably probably I think shifting your perspective proof-of-work. First of all, it Bridges the gap between the digital and the Physical Realm like between the virtual world and the real world and that's like a world-first like it. We haven't seen anything like that before in the way and that's the whole reason why the digital scarcity is possible in the first place and It also seeing it like a protective layer around all transactions, you know, it's like a Fort Knox for everyone and it has really really thick Wallace. It's not it's not like you have to do that yourself like the base chain secures itself and it's the same security guarantee for everyone and it's also you know, it's not black and white. Nobody has a clue how thick the walls need to be because we can't really tell what is enough. Proof of work, you know and all those kind of things they were like, okay, that's really interesting. It's just so so so different than everything we had before and it's also necessarily different because yeah, I mean, we're really good with taking care of our stuff in the physical world. I mean some are better than others, but I kind of know what we very stuff and we build thick walls around it. And so but in the digital realm it's so so different and it really bad cybersecurity. In general, they're really really bad and it kind of sucks that in a genius way like it sets up the scientist in a way that you don't want to attack it in the first place, but also second of all it just it has this immense feedback loop that where you just put on layers and layers and layers of security with without like most people don't even know what's going on. Really? You know, it's there just - yeah. Yeah, nothing like their. Oh, I'll secure all the past transactions because I'm such a good person. That's that's the beauty of it. Yeah. Yeah, I think about that, you know, and I love just having having those kind of down the rabbit hole sessions with others, but also with myself where I just start thinking about like proof of work or any other different elements of Bitcoin and really like extending it out as far as I can see and of course a lot of people got into Bitcoin just for well many reasons, but you know, let's say it was kind of the censorship resistance or Sound free money non-state money sort of thing. And what's interesting these days is it is it seems that the the pace at which new narratives around Bitcoin is accelerating, you know, like people are sharing things on Twitter. And I know you're familiar with random friending quantum's article on, you know, kind of the structure being related to something like mycelium and all these like, you know, all these people are just kind of sharing their thoughts on it and it at the of the day they're still there's nothing it's not right or wrong. It's just interesting ways that people are extrapolating new narratives from Bitcoin. Of course that's going to inspire people to actually try to make real a lot of those things and it just seems like it that's why people refer to it as a rabbit hole, right? Because it you know, there's no there's no end. It can keep kind of bifurcating off into these different branches where you see it in different lights and that's part of the thing that makes it so interesting but also so like Obsession inspiring. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's endlessly fascinating and I I love Brandon's work and I just I just had a very very long conversation with him and also guys want from the economy podcast. I listened to a Bitcoin is a living organism and our thoughts on them and it's really interesting because I SS at on that episode. so as well, I think I think that it's kind of true but I think that even you know, everyone tries to make sense of Bitcoin in their own way and it seems that it's all of that but also more, you know, it is it is digital gold and you know, it is an Unstoppable PayPal in a way and it is internet money and I would even say it also is a new form of life and living organism, but it's More than that as well. We don't really understand it yet. Like I would argue that nobody really understands good kind in a way even if you are a core developer, I mean obviously their levels of understanding but I would argue that in the same way that that for example the to the people working on Twitter. I don't think they really grasp the scope of what they build as well. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah in the way some systems and some things stay the internet as well. Like the early internet genius. Did they knew what they were up to? They knew what they were building, but you can't really foresee the second and third order effects of things and I mean, it's the same for Karis people that invented the combustion engine. They had no idea what they are doing. Yeah. I mean on now in hindsight sure our planets changed quite a bit just because of the invention of cars right Road Network. Also, yeah a lot of gases in the atmosphere that weren't there before. So I think it's similar to bitcoin that it's just it's own thing and everyone tries to understand what it is and it's also evolving at such a fast rate because just you really smart people working in it and new new inventions are coming out like on a weekly basis in a way and now we have lacking Network for example, and suddenly Bitcoin suddenly. Bitcoin can scale it suddenly. Is it is this payment rail as well, you know on a second here and it's yeah, I think it's really interesting. As I said, it's endlessly vessel. This is why I think what's happening on Twitter is so interesting and to a certain degree expected and to a certain degree essential is because you know, like you said, nobody knows what this thing is. We all just kind of It's like, you know, we see reflections of who we are and what we want to exist in the world in it, you know, and that's the that's the nature of really I don't know what the word to put on it, but really special or truthful or pure ideas or entities that we encounter and behold. I mean, we they're so pure and truthful that they can reflect things that are inside of us ideas or behaviors or and obviously imbue us with those qualities as well and we'll get into kind of the behavioral aspect of being involved in Bitcoin in a few minutes, but it's I love what's going on on bitcoin Twitter. Let's say because it's this smashing together of ideas and perspectives and narratives and stuff and it's like a soup and we get to watch and real-time which ones take hold like someone has put someone puts out an article someone does this and you know, a lot of them get rejected now, I don't really see it now. It's not that it doesn't work that way but wha but then you know one emerges. People like holy shit. It it that that sounds true. There's definitely a grain of Truth in there and then it gets extrapolated out and then it be then it gets nestled in the minds of all of us who read or encounter that information and that narrative and then it just fuels the fire of what this thing is and what it can be and then it intensifies the fire that exists in all of us who are engaging in it. I mean, it's fucking insane. Yeah. It was insane II tried. To write about it in a more precise and and I came up with the idea of this idea value generating feedback loop. So in a way it all started with sodium satoshi's idea and you have an idea you write the software you run the software and a note and the note connects if everything works out with other notes. And so you have this network the network generates value and then the value it feeds back into your idea like it. It manifests itself with this Loop and all the components they influence each other because at the network grows you will have to you will have to adjust your ideas. Even you know, I mean Andreas Antonopoulos, for example, he talks in the early days all the time how how Bitcoin is like the transactions on free and that's just not true at all. No, we had to adjust this narrative that we had to adjust our ideas of it because nothing in life is free like you will you will need to have some transaction costs on. At least on the settlement layer, and I think it's exactly right. But you said that everyone sees it differently and that it reflects in a way you who you are and what your experiences are and as he say that the students on Twitter the toxic soup, but it shows really well, I think because you have also financed Twitter like you've so many people that come in from finance and what what is it fun for you? We haven't Inspector ground. I mean, it depends on your Finance background, but it most definitely is an asset. It might be an investment vehicle might be a risk on risk of acid. However, you want to see ya. We also have a lot of people from the tech world coming in and I mean, I would even say there are not too many tech people in week on you you have you need to have some sort of cypherpunk a very idealistic Tech. A background in a way. I think that Bitcoin is really interesting to you a lot of tech people. They flocked to other projects I would say because they think that the tech is more interesting there and that was a hang-up for me as well because I come from the effect called. I'm a software engineer by training and I've been a software engineer for the last 15 years or so and for me, it was really hard to wrap my head around it. But in that sense that it's not it's not really about that. No, it's money. It's about the money. It's about the kind of will win because of economic realities technology is just one tiny part of that just has to work and be secure enough. Yeah, the rest of it is way more important and that's what I think a lot of different people for example are missing. It's really, you know, building the fancy bottles person whistles around it. All of them do isn't that important. I would say and will come later anyway. And I think you can see very clearly on Twitter depending on the background people you also have for example people that worked on human rights and then the censorship resistance aspect which is the most important one and it can Empower people in that way that transactions that would have been impossible. Otherwise are now possible because Bitcoin and I think it's it's perfect for this and so what you said it reflects who you are back to you. Yeah, and this actually Leads to an article that you wrote about the gravity of Bitcoin because and in that article, correct me if I'm wrong, but just summarizing you were kind of saying that Bitcoins gravity like it affects it a certain amount. Let's say if you're coming from the finance side of things a certain amount if you're coming from the NGO and you know difficulty of cross-border payments and that side of thing it affects you differently. If you're you know, there's all these different like stories of people or interests or pockets of society and the gravity of Bitcoin is seemingly pulling them all in but at different rates at different speeds different orders, you know, some some before others and I like how the article kind of You know showed that that it's going to end up affecting the gravitational pull is going to end up affecting everybody in at least some aspect of their lives very powerfully, but it's just a matter of which ones are, you know, which one's get pulled on first? Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's also the reason why it's so extremely difficult to have an elevator pitch for Bitcoin because people understand different aspects of it and depending on on where you are. Are in your journey you might have to as I did. For example, I had to catch up on economics in a big way. Like I had no idea what money is I had no idea about economics at all. I have no idea about money order or the history of man and you kind of have to learn that to really understand Bitcoin for other people. This just might be clear. I mean if you have a background ground in Austrian economics or in power, you are go back or you know your monetary history then The kind you might not even go down the shit coin whole you might I be clear for you. Okay, it's just has these monetary properties. So it will win out in the end just like gold it so just get some Bitcoin and I'll just wait for this process to play itself out on the other hand if you have a tech background, for example, you might think oh, yeah, you know Bitcoin is the base chain 10 minutes. That's too slow or blah blah blah, whatever and you might You know you end up buying into 30 different checkpoints. Yeah, and it's so hard to explain to people and again, it depends on where you come from because if you come from a country where the currency isn't as strong as the dollar or the Euro or the other large currencies for someone who is in Bolivia, for example, or in Venezuela to pick the obvious example, Bitcoin intuitively makes sense, you know, like Government can metal wood with my money is sure like it's way way better than what I have now and you understand that aspect of Bitcoin immediately. Yeah, I think what you said is is interesting because it's one of the questions. I mean, I asked it a lot to people on the podcast and I'll ask you to little bit later, but I also think it about it myself a lot because you know, whenever all of us like people that are obsessed with Bitcoin we want to talk about it pretty much. With everybody we encounter right and if we even like sniff that there's a an ounce of interest will be like, you know will open up the floodgates but it's what and the reason why we're so interested in how people frame it when they're talking about it with people is because we're used to like having this Uber obsession with it and then trying to articulate it and seeing that it doesn't really land like you can see in the person's face that they're just like you could say everything, you know about it. They're kind of like, yeah, but okay, so So what and so what you mentioned like the elevator pitch is kind of hard for Bitcoin. Maybe it's best to start like the next time those conversations happen or you're trying to quote unquote pitch it it's like, okay. What do you know about money? How do you feel about the government? How do you feel about like, you know currencies in third world countries? How do you know what's your what's your understanding of technology and just like kind of ask all those free questions first and then be like hmm. Okay. I think I know where I'm going to start with this and then you go for it, you know. Yeah exactly and It's also my Approach in the real world. Like I'm I'm currently somewhere where I'll if I would have to guess. I'm probably the only Bitcoin I'd like a 500-mile radius. And so I have this these kind of conversations a bunch and I would even say you can't talk about Bitcoins without talking about the time because I'm in Austria currently, and I'm also Born in Australia. I'm currently I just recently moved to arms and somewhere new but it was an Oscar last summer. Great. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lovely country but you know not not too much going on in the Bitcoin world. I would say you know that however in Vienna in downtown Vienna, there's a Toshi Nakamoto store like you go in and you can buy like t-shirts and coffee mugs and shit like that. Yeah, there's I mean I When the pressure goes through because there are some things going on but it's just a small country. Sure. Hopefully interesting people are somewhere else. But anyway, even in Australia to talk to regular people and I say even in Austria because I think it's a you know, it's a first world country and things are more or less working handsome, but everyone knows that, you know, the currency doesn't matter. If you talk about the Euro the currencies were before like no currency holds the value everything gets more expensive. If over time like most things get expensive all the time, and I think this is one of the best entry points at least to my experience because if especially if you talk to someone who's a little bit older like if they are in their 50s or 60s, you just you know, you can you can just say I you know, like 10 years ago these x amount of your body doesn't happen and now it's like five times that and they're like, yeah, it's so insane. Everyone kind of knows that intuitively that the money we have his shit. I think that's a really good entry point. Some people they most people I wouldn't say they never yeah, they they never asked himself these kind of questions and I think it's Paramount to understand a good find for example to understand why goal one out like why you know in a way most most shit. Coins it's it feels to me like oh nice. Yeah. Now we have this gold. Okay, but you know, we have titanium here and titanium has better conductivity or whatever or you know, I'm letting point and so we have to use that because it has a lower melting point. Like that's that's where most people in the Chicago world are actually yeah people kind of know that gold is valuable and they I mean the the lore around goal is thousands of years. Is all you know people spoke about gold like it was the Living God even and it's you know, the Metro from heaven and all of that that that lore around it. If it doesn't come out of nowhere, there are really good reasons. Why gold one the currency war in terms of monetary Hells? Yeah and understanding why that is will help you understand why there will only be one thing and also why Bitcoin will be that Thing. Yeah, you know people talk about the wealth transfer, excuse me that Bitcoin you know is going to going to It's going to stimulate and you could look at it. So many different ways whether it's you know from the one percent to the you know, the 99% or from regions of the world, you know for people there's people in Venezuela and maybe turkey and other places that are experiencing currency issues. I mean, they're just going to be motivated by a necessity to look into other options sooner than people that use the euro US Dollar Canadian dollar whatever but it's also, you know a wealth transfer to the curious. You know because a lot of people, you know, they even wear gold jewelry, but they have no idea why they wear it. They just you know, it's one of those de facto cultural things that you just get the download and you never questioned and so all those you know, and I love it because I mean, I love curious people. I love having conversations with them. But you know, that's another one of the wealth transfers to the people that ask why and that's awesome. Yeah II love when you just said that the wealth transfer to the curious. I think that's It's really that's really that's really something. Yeah, what you said about gold as well. I mean, you know, you've even for God's sakes you're Peter Schiff who has it, you know, it's the other way around people who wear gold jewelry because gold is valuable. Yeah. It's not like, you know Peter Schiff with this cufflinks. It's like it's not the reason why we have called total is this place? It's not like, oh it's so pretty and that's why people wear it. No, man. No, it's the other way around. Yeah, it has valuable if you run around with a gold necklace in your small little tribe and everyone knows that you're the boss because you know, if you could you just cook them up to me and rip the necklace of my neck, but you can't because you know, I'm so powerful and so influential that I can't do it. Yeah, and it just drives me insane people that you know are in the gold business or our investors or I've been in vessels for the last 30 40 years or whatever. They just have it backwards. It's insane. Yeah, man, I you know, I've seen the funny because I have been following Peter Schiff from many years prior to 2008. And so at that time, you know, I was totally on board, you know, because Bitcoin wasn't around and you know, everything looked like it was going to melt so I was like, yeah Peter you're damn right, you know gold and silver get you up. Let's do this and And but you know his narrative has never changed and at the last decade - you know last few months has been fucking horrible for precious metals pretty much especially when you compare it to bitcoin and you know, he's just so stuck in the in the mud with this. I mean, yeah, it's yeah he did. It's just doubling down and yeah, exactly and like maybe he even said that he missed about that's pretty much the reason why he is against it and everyone, you know, like Trace may say the same. Sanguine when the Congress trading below a dollar it was like like his first purchase as well. Like I don't know 20 Center. I don't know what that he's like. I miss the boat. Yeah, the the Peter Schiff debates. I'm almost like a, you know train wreck. That's why you watch them you'd like I despise his style. Like I'd really love to have a debate with him someday because I just hate how he talks over people. He doesn't address any of the points made by the people he's debating. Dating and then he just says the same old shit like like you said it's frustrating but at the end of day, we don't have to care right? I mean we watch it if entertainment more so than yeah, and I just wanted to tell you why we want him to come around so much. I mean like who cares? I mean as everyone always says Bitcoins going to do its thing no matter what Honey Badger Don't Care it's just you know, so why do we care if a certain person gets on board now or 10 years from now? Yeah. I don't know. I personally don't care. I'm the truth. A lot of other people care. I think I think what people kind of want to see is how people change their mind. Yes. Yeah, I think for a lot of gold box, that would be nice to see that it's like, you know, I I'm the question I'm asking myself is and I mean we will get into the weeds here, but go for it. The reason why gold like one of the main reasons, why gold is so cool as a money is that it's basically indestructible. And so whatever you pull out of the ground it will it will stay above ground, you know, you can't destroy it. So it's the main reason behind stock to flow ratio. Which just means since you cannot destroy it the stockpiles they piled up over the last thousands of years and the stockpile doesn't get reused and since gold is cars just my natural law just because of physics. You can't really like we can pull a little bit more gold out of the ground. If we really we really try but still it's kind of dated and since it's indestructible the stockpiles we already have are so enormous that it doesn't matter how much new stuff comes in its. It doesn't make it them really and that's the main reason why Gomez has so much value because of low ratio and if you read the Bitcoin standard by say 15, he goes into great detail in this regard and what I think will be interesting to see is that Bitcoin has Way better properties than gold even but with one difference that you can destroy it fine and arguably that's even good because it will have the highest octave surveys right? But but I think that's something that we will have to see how it plays out over the next couple of hundred years. That's what I'm talking about the next couple of years. I mean, we will be mining the fun for stood by the long time. So One important and so for me it's still early days and I to to Loop it back to leadership. I think that's also what Peter Schiff and many other people that are still of the opinion that they miss the vote. They don't see that they don't see how early we still are II think I mean it's obvious to me that it's like exponential as first one after the other like all the adoption waves. They come in exponential curves, but I think in the very grand scheme of things we are still before the new In terms of behind adoption like it's umm out really far it will also be a very very big exponential S curve and this is how I put the quantization of the look like and it will only it will only level off again when it's just used as the global money everywhere. Yeah. Well analyze the answers worth of soil and so much more, you know. Yeah. I mean, the money is Bitcoins killer app right now right now. Buddy that's in it gets that but like we were saying about the narratives before like that back smashing together of narratives. It's not going to stop it's only going to accelerate as more people and more Minds get, you know connected to the network and that's going to change entirely how we view it. I mean it'll change entirely how we view of five years from now let alone 50 years from now. We really can't imagine what Bitcoin is going to quote unquote be like dominant narratives that around Bitcoin in That period of time and so to right now and I treat about this today. Actually I said, you know because you just brought up the scarcity component. Yes, like what happens when a large percentage of the global population wants something that is infinitely scarce. I mean, obviously, you know, the price has to address dramatically higher but I when I said is I think even the most outlandish estimates are going to be comedic lie low and because you know right now, you know people that are really like hundred trillion. Bitcoin market cap people are like well take Global real estate and Global, you know Investments and bonds and money supply and all its mash it all together, but I think back to like 94-95 internet and if you had said that unlike what will the value of the internet be you'd say like, okay. Well, let's take the newspapers and let's take the TV stations and let's take you know, a couple other information, you know media sources and say okay put together like global Of a hundred billion two hundred billion and that would be so narrow in terms of what the internet is today. And so I think the same thing is going to happen. Like we're looking at it in terms of what are the all the kind of assets that Bitcoin is going to disrupt a replace or be a better alternative for whatever but I think all those narratives that were not even currently considering are going to just have another offshoot another balloon to of value to add to Bitcoins market cap. So if someone thinks it's a hundred trillion, Maybe it's you know, maybe it's far greater than that. I'd so I think we'll look back and you know to the point you are mentioning about people thinking they missed out. You know, when the last Bitcoin is mine or let's say when Like there's going to be periods where the number of Bitcoin mind per year is less than what right? Yeah less than one full Bitcoin. That's that's correct. Right? Yes. Yeah, so think about global economic value of one year presumably unless we really like collapse and take a lot of steps backward that's going to be a quite quite a big number. And that has to be like and that's the the Bitcoin this issue. Let's say in that year. It's going to he's going to have to Encompass at least a portion of that. And so the fact that you're saying you missed the boat now when it's at let's $10,000 it 10300 at the time of this discussion again, I mean, I think it just shows an inability to zoom out and then maybe a bunch of other mental blocks that are happening. But I mean, yeah. I don't know. It just seems like there's no way to sufficiently it's hard to overstate how important impactful that this thing is going to be. Yeah, it's exactly like Amen to that and personally, I you know, as I said, I had a lot of catching up to do in terms of economics and I think I like I'm I mean, I'm still I'm reading for like one two three hours every day, and I'm still learning every day. So I'm nowhere near the end of the journey and I had to come to grips with yeah with what you just said that things are going to be so crazy. We can't even imagine and I think that's one of the reasons why people like it kind Tina, for example, I believe that they are closest to the truth, you know, like they extreme insane hyper pants. They are closest to what's gonna happen when Will it when it's going to happen like I think nobody can really say but as you said the only thing that can adjust is the price and it has to be dramatically higher and it will be so dramatic because we were we have never seen absolute scarcity. Just like you said, you know, like if we never had something where no matter how much money you have there will be there will be a point in time where you can't even afford one big pile no matter what you do sure. Like it's so icky. Extremely scarce if you're a multi-millionaire, it won't matter if you if you're really late to the game. You just won't be able to afford it. The price will be so so insanely high and I think it's also really hard to talk about few any future market cap because we have to use currently we evaluate everything in dollars and once the dollar collapses in the Euro collapses and other Fiat currencies collapse, then it will be really hard. Price things in dollars. I mean we can fall back to dog see how it kind is priced in terms of gold. I think we will necessarily have to do that over any meaningful period of time like if we look long enough into the future, but I think the the buying power of one Bitcoin will just be insane like, you know, there is I think there's more millionaires in II forgot the statistics hunt but there's there's not enough. It's fun for every Millionaire on Earth. I think I think something along those lines. Yeah, I think I should be in America. I think there's more than 21 million millionaires in the world. So yeah, I think I think that where that's where that's coming from. And yeah, it's insane to think about and it's kind of you know, it's it reminds me. It reminds me of it's also about people that saw the potential of Moore's Law very early on like there were some people were computers were the size of like really big houses and they were even before that, you know, like Ada Lovelace and other Very very very early for you to people that were building computers with pen and paper. They were talking about computers to talk back to you and they were talking about, you know, also machines that can think like Alan Turing famously wrote papers on that and all of that stems from a very basic understanding of fundamentals and extra like extrapolating the exponential Trend into the future and it's and we see all of that happening right now. I mean you have apps on your phone. You can speak to their not perfect yet, but you can have conversations with the computer like no problem a computer can understand you when you talk to it. It can also talk back. We have facial recognition that superhuman and so on and so forth and all of that is just based on on the yeah on the same fundamentals that were in existence since the beginning of computers, and I think we will have a similar Trend in Bitcoin where We'll just understand the fundamentals and can extrapolate in the future and people like Farrah showered and Michael Goldstein they talk about type of dependence ation. And I think that's exactly what will happen. Just like that's exactly what happened in Information Technology world and computers. All of all of that stuff happened. I mean, we are having conversations over a worldwide Global Network right now in real time. We've never seen each other and we never met before and we're talking to each other right now and people talked about that in the you know, 50s and 60s even earlier and like way earlier and now it's reality and I think the same will happen. Yeah with what we are talking about right now. I think yeah just make sense. Yeah. I mean it's it's so exciting to be here and now like an inner involved in some capacity even if only as an observer In what's going on? Because like you just articulated like a lot of us think like if we're right and this is what we think it is and can be then well, that's Trace May or many other have repeated. This could be a once in a species event, you know and let that sink in for a moment. Like really you're alive during a time of a like super significant once in a species event. I mean, I often think like if you're not obsessed with Bitcoin, you don't you don't understand. And Bitcoin, you know, and that's I think a lot of us like maximalist and people that are really into Bitcoin think that way because we're just like how the fuck can you not be crazy interested in this thing like it is like, you know, we're pulling our hair out daily. Just thinking about it all and it's so funny that you know, a large portion of the population growing ever ever smaller granted, you know Bitcoins doing its thing and sucking people in on a daily basis, but you know, just to know that this is a lot of Normie still out there that just, you know, it hasn't it hasn't entered their world. Of in a significant way yet. Yeah, but yeah, but they're a reflection of us to like you said, you needed three or four touches before you really got sucked into the gravity and went down the rabbit hole. I was the same way, you know, it's like I was interested intrigued, you know picked up a little but I wasn't obsessed until you know, I don't I get more obsessed all the time actually. So the daily basis I'm like, holy shit. It's getting even more intense, you know. Yeah same here like I I sometimes say that I'm so bullish. It's an unhealthy. They said I'm just I'm just excited 24/7. I wake up excited I go to bed excited and exhausted. Well, you know what? Let's let's let's change the angle bit actually because I you know, I'm not exactly the same way and I think a lot of people listening that are involved probably feel the same way and a lot is made of Bitcoins, you know ability to change behavior and I want to break into that but I just on the basis of what you just said, I mean we All probably been in situations in our lives and our careers where we woke up. We went to bed late, you know woke up low energy kind of like big exhale that you got to go and do whatever the fuck your job is like man this fucking sucks and you go to work and you just get through the day and you go have some beers afterwards if you do whatever you got to do to get by but you're not, you know, you're not really stimulated and there's a good case to be made for being depressed as a result in the situation. You're in right? and the fact that this thing is a like like you just said you wake up you're excited to learn more to engage in it to you know, all that kind of stuff and I feel the same way and I was thinking, you know, I've been in tandem with my interest in big actually way before it, you know psychedelics have always been a big interest for me and I've taken it very seriously and learned a lot spoke to a lot of people and stuff like that interview people and You know, right there has been a Renaissance over the last 20 years and now you know, the was the early results. I think they're going into phase 3 trials for a lot of this stuff now, but for something like psilocybin, let's say which the active ingredients in mushrooms, you know, amazing results for treatment-resistant depression for anxiety for post-traumatic stress disorder like those big serious things that affect a lot of people that was yesterday's clean the dishes or something and I was like, man You know, I almost felt like bring it up. You know Bill Richards is one of the researchers at Johns Hopkins said I've interviewed before I almost felt like ringing a bill and being like their look psilocybin and the and the therapy that's that's attached to it in the protocol that they've been studying is amazing for reintegrating the past right like getting, you know, seeing your past in a different light and being able to take something positive from it and being more present here and now kind of having it more positive out or you know appreciating having Attitude in the present. I was like, you know what you need to add to that protocol just throw Bitcoin in the mix like after after after they have the Psychedelic therapy and then they have the Psychotherapy just do like a one-hour introductory slide show or something to bitcoin because I think it or not. I think it is that thing that causes you to see the future with through a brighter lens like everybody who's involved in it has like to varying degrees of course, but I think it's hard to argue that That people that are in the space and are excited about Bitcoin. It has a name. It hasn't increased or improved the way it which they perceive the future and their and their role in it. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's true for a lot of people and it's true for me as well. Like I'm in a way. I've never been more hopeful about the future and I'm not sure if I would call myself an optimist necessarily by Nature. I was really I think before I fell down the Bitcoin Rabbit Hole. I just thought that we're pretty much fucked anyway, actually. To and and there's not much you can do it do about it. And this leads also, I think it naturally leads to a very hedonistic lifestyle as well because wine if you're if we're fucked anyway, why not? Enjoy the right right right just have have those beers. Yeah. And and so that's 4 and I think it's it's yeah, it's very very true what he said. I think if you realize What the potential of this technology is? And also if you adopt it personally in your life. I think it's just changes you quite drastically and I would also say almost immediately if you understand it properly because you like you have to take on so much personal responsibility to be your own bank as they say and you also need to adopt the personal responsibility to Really understand what you've got yourself into and you need to take care of. Yeah, your your security measures. For example, you need to take care. You just take care of your wealth in cells by yourself. Like ee you do everything yourself if you can and I think that the changes you drastically and the fact also that you you will learn about the history of money and you will learn about the current For example that I think that's what changed me a lot as well. I learned how the current system works and how how the financial system works and also the ills of it and it kind of changes you in the way I think that now now like realizing that there is a way out you you kind of get disillusioned with a lot of things that you just took for granted before and I I think that's also related to to the carnivore diets of the maximalist because as say 15 also talks about it's like we have Fiat money and we also have yet food and to an extent. I think it's true. You know, it's it's just you we don't really, you know, we didn't have good money for quite a long time and you could make an argument that that similar things are happening for food and So I for sure and I think all of the changes you very drastically but to to to sum it up maybe I think what what Bitcoin changed most for me is just my time preference and you as you said you just you suddenly you start to really be hopeful for the future planning to the Future you and realize okay. I maybe if you're lucky you have a small stash of the car. I know some satoshi's and as you said we're just observers just watching that play out. And if you're smart about it, you might you know, that might be your pension or the pension of your kids or any future Generations. Yeah, and if you play it smart and you don't get scammed out of your Bitcoins done. Yeah. I think I have a bright future. Will I had for you? Yeah, I couldn't agree more and I just this. just this kind of narrative of how Bitcoin changes your behavior it's not brand new of course, but I think it's starting to filter out through more and more people and people are you know, like we talked to earlier about the narratives around Bitcoin like this is one that's really gaining Steam and I think before too long it's going to be one that's actually like talked about in media also, like when people aren't just going to be saying Bitcoin is dead or the price of Bitcoin is this like this is going to be a story at some point in the not-too-distant future about how and I think I think it's a sign of our times, you know, and I'm a perfect example of this to you know, I you know, when I was 20 years old, let's say two thousand five six seven. I was like, yeah, everything is totally fucked like there's no there's no there's no way this is getting turned around but I took it upon myself to like, you know, be happy and and find my way regardless and sometimes I was successful that other times. I wasn't, you know, the Journey of life, but I think that you know this This thing being here now just not you always going to be responsible for your own happiness, but it's really nice to have this thing. That's like your buddy along the way like that you can kind of like lean on a little bit for support and to pull you through and be like, okay now I don't just have to kind of like muddle through regardless now, like now it matters what like now it there's actual hope there's actual hope now and you know, that's why so many people are motivated. I think to get involved in this thing because They want to actualize that to the extent that it's possible. They want to be like I don't just want to sit back and like hope it works out. This is some real potential for a better world and I feel like it's almost my duty to get involved in some capacity. Yeah, and you have the added benefit of like I again, I think Bitcoin is bigger than us and it doesn't really need us but still if you like your incentivized to help Bitcoin along the way if you can write in when whatever let's go. Thing and yeah, and it's so beautiful because I agree with you. I think a lot of people are in it because they see this potential and they see also the potential for something like a second Renaissance happening or and like if you if you study your history, you will see that the Belle epoque like the point in time where most of the world was using a gold standard. It was one of the best times in the world in terms of prosperity in terms. Of Art in terms of culture in terms of innovation that's on and a lot of people are convinced that the adoption of the Bitcoin standard will have similar effects, but additionally to death since we're still early and you got in early you're also incentivised just selfishly to do that. So it's really beautiful you kind of you know, you you realize that there is hope for for a better world. So to speak and you you want to do what you can to bring this better World about But you are also motivated for selfish reasons because of course the value of your stash will grow alongside with right and I think it's just another example where the incentives of Bitcoin work out beautifully and you don't need to have any Central. Let's say development t or marketing team or whatever have you and it still works out beautifully just grows organically and you have now, you know, yeah just people all around The world rooting for for Bitcoin because of those two interests like one one interest to make the world a better place to use the trace and one interests to yeah for selfish reasons. Anyway, sure, I really think that we yeah, we can see that right now. It's almost like the Modern Renaissance Man people that work on things work on projects that will take years to build out fully and also people Just you know, they they quit their jobs and just proselytize for Bitcoin full-time like the dresses for example, and and many other people, you know, they just see that's that's what I want to do with my life and I want to help people understand how big this thing is and to touch back home on something that you said before. It's just will grow in yet. He will grow and it will eat up more and more value and what most quote-unquote regular people don't get this that money is such a huge essential big thing. You know, like Jesse say money is one half of every transaction and it just it rules our lives every day without us directly seeing it and Empires rise and fall because of money whole civilizations crumble because there's something wrong with the money. Yeah and And once you have sound money like that, the sound is money. We ever had one can only imagine how prosperous the world. Yeah, I couldn't agree more and you know, I when I think of you know, I've been thinking about this for many years, but and I'm not religious but you know my opinion. Well, let's just say this. I think the real religion in the world is money. I don't care if you're a Muslim or a Christian or whatever. I think that's more virtues. Milling than anything else the thing that really dictates people's behavior. That's what you got to look at who gives a fuck what people say what dictates of behavior it's money money is the religion of the world and always has been and when you look at the and so the quality and the form of that money is obviously going to inform that religion and the behavior that stems from it tremendously and like you just said, you know, I can't wait until our religion IE the money that most of us use is something that is So truthful and so pure and so well designed to both serve the people that engage with it and the larger Network and like you like as you said before the selfish benefit to be derived from it, but in seeking your selfish benefit you actually, you know contribute positively to the network as a whole like it when that becomes our quote-unquote religion like de facto. I'm not saying that, you know necessarily people are going To you know worship Bitcoin in the cathedral. I might that although it might have time for it because it would be good for taxes as well. Right, right. Yeah, but once once that happens, you know again that behavior change so that we're talking about I mean, it's gonna be so evident then but I just think it's going to direct a lot like more a lot better Behavior just de facto without having to be taught or instructed or Flop anything as a result of being that dominant, you know money in society. Yeah. I think it's so funny to talk about this through a religious lens and I I'm I'm working on the draft. I'm not really working on it. But I have a draft where I write about Bitcoin through a religious lens and oh man, it's a super our super a yeah, it got to get that shit out there. Yeah, I'll have to the other series before that. But I think it's so funny because Oh, I know. I know what you what you mean when you said money is the religion of the world. I kind of agree dictates human behavior in a very big way, but on the other hand there there are definitely things like they're definitely religious people that don't care about money at all and their behavior is not written by that but just by it's not many of you have many men, but they're now some in Bitcoin as well and we have we have plenty of people like holders of Last Resort that I will To go down with the ship, you know, like they're they're millionaires now like Bitcoin Millionaires and and II believe this to be true. They are so convinced of this that they are willing to write it down to zero if it would have ever happened. I think it will never happen because there's just way too many people that write everything if you'd ever approaches 0, yes still just like American old listen to the episode. It is an awesome dude. He's one of those guys, you know, he said he's willing to risk it all he's willing to Just how can you how can you stop someone like him? Yeah, and you basically can't you know, it's like a religious fanatic you just you can't you can't stop those people. Yes. I totally agree love conviction. I totally agree. And yeah, and the convicted conviction is amazing and something that you know, so many of us in this space share at least as to varying degrees, but it's not it's not a perfect analogy to like your Buddhist monk who survives on like, you know rice donated from the community. As you know the although they're very convicted and willing to go down with the ship. They've decided that the probability and then the take the bet they're making is that it's going to make them fucking riches is shit. Right? So like, you know, I don't I wouldn't say they don't care about money. I would just say they realized that that start that this thing succeeding is worth to their personal like Financial ruin, you know, I think they have I think they all all feel that way and again to make to religious analogy we're willing to sacrifice Rifice ourselves for this thing. Yeah, but you know we're willing to you know, most of us have the majority the better portion of our you know net worth. Let's say in this stuff and we're all willing to sacrifice that to yes it just for this to have a chance to survive and that like that again, what's more religious than sacrifice that yeah, exactly. And I think I think that goes hand-in-hand wish just how Bitcoin changes your time preference because like the lower your time preference the more you're willing. To sacrifice the present for the future and I think that's what we're seeing all around. I mean people are are quitting very well paying jobs and just risking everything just to be able to get into Bitcoin full-time and just work for a better future and sacrifice what you have now and present and maybe in the next couple of months or years to just yeah build a better future for yourself and others and to to one more comment on the religious aspect. I think it's called on what you said, but I think it kind of changes you in so many ways and what you said before that you kind of want to talk to everyone about it and you want to go to normal people and tell them this amazing thing you found and I think there is a sand analogy there as well because I believe that the longer you are in Bitcoin at one point in time. I'm very close to the point. I would say you just don't Road all in your pure sin, and it will just happen by yourself and you won't be interested in discussing those things with quote unquote normal people and I've heard core Developers for example talk about like they don't even try anymore. They don't even try to explain the current regular people. They just sticking their bottle. It's just disgusting things there because it's you know, it's like a very religious people they probably did they don't like enlightening. People to use that language. They don't walk around them perhaps, you know, they don't try to convert people. They just as I said Buddhist monk, he just sits around all day and meditates and that's it and the world will unfold it right just be the change you want to see and that you're here your example will be you'll be a shining example to others and I get it and I share like that sentiment not only because it's frustrating when you try to have the conversations with people and it doesn't really like The fit is really land. But yeah, I and I think that's a great approach you feel good and calm and you kind of know what's going to happen. And then you just let everything unfold as a will and like you like you said a little while back like Bitcoin doesn't care. It's going to do its thing either way. However, you do like, you know, it's one. I'll related back again to my initial kind of feelings around psychedelics and it's funny actually because that's the approach I've taken with psychedelics as I've You know when I first had that quintessential mystical experience, I wanted to like run out like I was you know, why isn't this on the front paper of every newspaper? Like everybody needs to know that this experience is available. But you come off is that like, you know crazy religious person running down from the mountain saying he just, you know receive the Ten Commandments, you know, nobody wants to be in that position and you discredit yourself anyways, so I ended up, you know being very Zen about it and Just doing my thing and if people ask me questions, I'd answer them. Otherwise, you know, I didn't force it on anybody. It's the only way I did and this is the same with Bitcoin actually is part of me just needs to have those conversations. Like I don't need to convince people but for my own intellectual curiosity masturbation, whatever you want to call it. Like I need to I need to have these type of discussions that we're having right now because I like them so much I enjoy them. So much and yeah, I'm less happy without them. And so that's why I actually, you know a few years ago. I started doing interviews around Bitcoin and psychedelics because those two areas like this these two things are too big for me not to get my rocks off every now and then and talk about it. And so that's actually the Genesis of this podcast to it's like, you know, nobody wants to spend all their time arguing with people and going around trying to convince people. But if I can use this as one a platform to me have for a platform for me to him Some conversations with people like yourself and that's like the majority of my incentive. But then also anybody who like becomes interested through the gravity starts pulling on then maybe it's a resource that resonates with them and they get something from it too. And yeah, that's enough. Yeah, and I think it's also very important because it really helps to solidify your understanding because every conversation you will find right certain holes in your understanding and maybe there will be some arguments that you just can't make sense of all reviewed and I think everyone goes through that process it way and it's really really interesting. If you go back and read read the Treasure Trove that is the Bitcoin talk for them. Like all the talking points that are currently had on Twitter have been had eight years ago almost 10 years ago, you know and really everything is there already like all the fun you can think of is already there. There's way less shit coronary. No, there's almost no. No, she kind of read in the very first periods, but everything else is there, you know, like it won't scale and transaction fees and blah blah blah and energy consumption and inefficiency and so on and so forth and people have been like I think everyone is kind of making the same Journey just some people were so early. They started the journey 10 years ago and they reached send Buddhist Master date like, you know the six seven years ago or so and They I can guarantee you that yeah, I mean, I think most people that reach this stage. They are just you know, they're not arguing on Twitter. Yeah. Yeah, we're instead of like, you know in kind of hit like cool Villas around the world instead of having like the heads of Buddhas and you know golden or wooden Buddha statues going to be like Trace mayor and your living rooms. Yeah. I'm looking forward to the Sea. I'm I'm also looking forward to something approximating it by currently religion and I I thought about that a lot lately because I all I think something like you know, oh man, that was sound so weird hit me. I'm sleep deprived and it's still I think something like Bitcoin monks will exist in the same way that monks they they basically sustain themselves by getting donations. Asians from the people and it's really hard to tell what kind of useful purpose in society. They really have I'm talking about Buddhist monks now mostly if you I mean if you look at it from a western very rational perspective in a way, but I think that we will have Bitcoin monks that are fully supported by the people and they will be core developers and I think we have a now we have we have some people that are that are so Source developers, they have Patron account. So what have you learned and people just pay them pay them to do whatever they need to do and they do it and I think we see that this also in the media landscape and people have listener supported podcasts and other things and I think we will see more and more of that and in a way the way I see it is we have this Religion discount is people say and we have some people let's call it the monks and they are completely supported by the population of this ritual country and they will do whatever it takes to you know, to to to bring this technology forward to explain it to everyone and sounded forth. I think I think it's already happening and will continue to happen in the future a hundred percent anime. Just imagine like a cycle or two from now when you know, it's not that people are going to easily part with their Bitcoin, but you know when a another kind of tranches Wealthy people that think in this sort of way I created. I mean just think about the different ways that they're going to be inspired and motivate to devote delegate some of that, you know, excess wealth to different projects. I mean, I I think and I think that level of changed impossible to predict right now, but I think it's going to be massive not just like Bitcoin does on its own and how it changes people that how it is increasingly empowers the people that align with it and then They will do with that power is just going to be like either things can be awesome. And I think I think we're seeing it like it's happening already. That's that's why I also think is so insanely cool to see about Bitcoin like everything is happening simultaneously all the time right in front of our eyes. Yeah. Well, I've talked about that before like, you know, people talk about store of value medium of exchange and unit of account and all of that is evolving and happening right now. Now like she kind of Traders they use Bitcoin as their unit of account a lot of people use it as a store of value and there's some things you just you can't you have to buy with Bitcoins. So people use it as a medium of exchange and all of that is happening just like you just have to open your eyes and see it and it's evolving simultaneously in parallel in a way. Yeah, and I think what you said with companies getting important on board and supporting people and just also supporting it independent developers and it's happening. Ready? I mean we got we got square and it just opened the square right trip to division. And as far as I know the they have big plans and they are just trying to get the best developers in the space and are just helping the ecosystem with black screen with other people that are just paying core developers to work on whatever they think is best. And so I'm and I love that it's all so amazing. Yeah, I think we saw that before and I also think that's one of the reasons why Bitcoin is set up to win in a way. We saw that in the open source community community as well, you know, like everyone loved about Linux and free and Libra open source not too long ago, you know, but it one and it won because of fundamentals and now Microsoft is switching to Linux in a way, you know, it's supporting at least limit sent and they have big plans for like have more open open source future and open source one because the fundamentals I'm using the term open source' Loosely here. So if someone's listening who's into free software, the proper term to use is actually free software and some people say free and Libra open source software, which is just it's belong to that. So that's what I mean when I say source and the background behind it is that the main idea is closed-source software is bad because it comes and goes just like Fiat money comes and goes, you know, if a country goes to shit the Fiat money will be gone. That's it gold in a way is like open source money because it's it just will always be here and you can use it you can you can take it use it as money. And so and so on bitcoin is is the same and free and Libra open source software is the same in that sense as well just doesn't die. You know, you cannot close it up again. It's just free. Use for everyone you can make of it what you will so there is no company or no nation state can die around this thing and then it will be gone and that's in my opinion. Why why among the many other reasons but that's one of the main fundamental reasons why Open Source One in so many areas. Yeah for god sakes like every Android phone has Linux blow it like the whole internet runs on Linux machines. I think the whole financial system will run on bitcoin. It's Just a matter of time. I mean for me it's it's it's Crystal Clear that this will happen how long it will take I've heard you have right? Thanks. I think it will be quicker than most people think. Yeah, you know, you mentioned the square example, and I was thinking like, you know, like that's another thing that this network this thing. This organism inspires is altruism. But then as you were saying I was like, well, it's not complete altruism because you know, they'll find a way they'll be a method for them to benefit from it. So maybe like maybe all Tourism isn't just selflessness maybe Ultra Ultra ism is selfishness that's aligned with benefits of the benefit of the collective, you know, so it's like it's both, you know. Yeah and if that sign Rand would agree with you on that, right? So if that's the case and you know, you know, it's amazing that Bitcoin inspires that and another great example. Are you familiar with mr. Pine? Mr. Pine. No, I don't think so. Okay. So are you familiar with maps multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic studies? No also know it's okay. So we'll just to give you a very brief rundown, but they've been studying they've been leading the charge basically at funding research on psychedelics for different medicinal for different different illnesses PTSD primarily in depression since 1985. And you know Rick Strassman Rick Dublin is the founder and actually had the opportunity to interview him to amazing man. Lovely. I mean just been working so hard to get to keep pushing this research forward for the last 30 years. I mean, it's incredible. But anyways, so they've been chipping away and obviously in the last 20 years been met with more and more success and they've also been doing work with with the MDMA and so as a result of their work, it looks Like in 2021 MDMA is going to be mdma-assisted Psychotherapy. So MDMA with Psychotherapy is going to be prescribed bubble for post-traumatic stress disorder and I believe possibly treatment-resistant depression and you know, that's that's that's amazing. That's the culmination of over 30 years of their hard work. And the reason why I bring it up is because two years ago. I think you early 2018 or sometime in 2017. One of their staff got a message from mr. Pine and long story short. Mmm Maps had a matching thing going on for a period of time where all the donations they got and all the money. They raise or sorry. Sorry. Sorry Maps is always in is always in fundraising mode and it had a big fundraising drive and Mr. Pyne emailed them and said, whatever you raised during the fundraising drive, I will match and so they I think they Raise four million and so he match that and then I think he gave them an additional four million just because and and through this thing through this thing called the pineapple fun. You should check it out because it's basically Flex. Yeah. I know that by now the pineapple funds. Okay? Okay. Yeah. So this this this Rich Bitcoin eye on Reddit who just gave away. Yeah. Exactly. And I think I think Maps was the big the biggest chunk of his giveaway. I think he gave him eight million USD and it's shit like that like that. Just the tip of the iceberg. Imagine in 20 30 40 years time when a lot more people have that kind of capacity to act to you know to give things like that and it would be different ways of means but it's just so amazing that you know, we're before these really great initiatives that weren't going to be funded by, you know, the drug companies or the political organizations for various reasons that we don't have to get into but that people can now be like, you know what this is totally worthwhile. You know, I think it's a good way for me to spend these Newfound rich As whatever and boom. Yeah, I do. It's just yeah, I think it's funny. It's funny that you brought up to Pineapple fun. Because I think not too many people know about it. And I think it really shows that you know, there are a lot of good people out there that just want to do the right thing. I I'm a firm believer that in general in general like basically people are good actually like if you don't fuck them up too much there is it generally want to do the right thing and that's it. I think yeah, we will we will see that happening more and more right I think because it I am convinced that it will be one of the largest wealth transfers in history and we will have you know new new phones. Yeah, billionaires are truly on the ice. I mean Amazon just last year or whenever it was hit one trillion dollars of market cap, and I think I think the individual who will Be the first with the same personal wealth, I would argue that he or she is already alive and I would also argue that it will be something fun on set a large amount. Yeah, probably and yeah, it's just again it's back to incentives. Like I said Square they I'm sure they also want to do some cool shit, but they're basically incentivised chest from like economic reality currently is set up in a way that you will have to pay Banks a huge amount of money if you want to run a business like square and so they are incentivized to innovate on that front that may be use for some people they do because underneath and just imagine a world where something like Square just cuts out all the banks and you can do it yourself on bitcoin and suddenly the 10 or 50 percent of whatever you have to pay a to the banks you can reduce You sit by massive amount and so you have an economic incentive to just do that work on bitcoin. Yeah, and I mentioning that because I think the research you mentioned before it's not it's not driven by money monetary incentives, you know, you just have this purely Quantum quotes religious. Let's put it that way incentive to also and medical incentive and so on to to work on that and figure out what the power of Those chemicals is Anton and I think that we have all of that combined in Bitcoin and we kind of know that things can grow without monetary incentives. Just look at BitTorrent. For example, it has no monetary incentive but it still works and you can still torrent pretty much everything and the network still runs and people still use it all the time, even though we have Spotify and Netflix and everything else, but but Till it without any monetary incentives this thing works and people are just incentivized by pure ideology, even or just out of their goodness of their heart also a little bit of self-interest because you see when you download but without any monetary incentive this works and I have to think about bittorrent's a lot because most of the shit coins like all the utility tokens, they could be replaced myself because I give it good Victorian. Sorry. You don't need you don't need me. Terry incentive and what is the beauty about because it's the same thing but with an added monetary incentive on top like it's the main driver the main driver is the monetary incentives. And as I said, you know money is the religion of the world. So most people that bring my money so I think it kind of just set up to to win all the time to quote my hotel so we can all agree that Bitcoin is designed to pump forever, right? Yeah, I totally A agreement. All right. I could we could talk for hours. I'm sure but we're at an hour 45 now. So I really appreciate you taking the time when you've had almost no sleep to just come and have a chat with me I got them Marty Bend is responsible for that. He didn't drive. Yeah. Well, like I said, I appreciate you coming on we could probably talk for like three or four hours, but we'll leave that for another time. Maybe I'll hit you up in a half year and we'll see we're kind of both of our Opinions and understanding are at alright then any time I'm always happy to talk about it. All right, man, before I let you go for the work that you've done and are doing in the resources you put out there. Just let people know where they can find them. Yeah, you can get a hold of me on Twitter. Mostly. I'm there GG on Twitter Dr. Gi gi and I also have their gog.com and we're put up my Bitcoin articles and some other resources. I've Bitcoin - resources that come Um where you can access to some books and articles and podcasts and podcast episodes that I think are useful in understanding the time and if you want to read about what I've learned falling down the rabbit hole, I think there's no better place then going to 21 lessons.com. Yeah, and I consumed I read it. I read everything and listen to everything and I just want just want to show you how because the first of all the 21 lessons things if you're not Reading it's all in and like kind of like an audiobook. You had someone read it, right? Yeah guys want from the cryptic only, right? So super accessible if you just want to download it and then listen to it whenever you have the time, but it's also you know the way that you structure it was cool because you intertwined all these different quotes from Alice in Wonderland, right? Yeah, exactly. So he for each lesson, there's kind of like a quote that Court, you know that's relevant to something that happened in Alice in Wonderland a quote now someone I landed that's relevant to whatever the lesson is. So it kind of makes it a little bit more entertaining and engaging and less less of just the kind of information dump. So I highly recommend that as a resource and guy did a really great job of reading it. So I just took myself and I enjoy the audio version way more than that what I think yeah. Well this thing is always easier to read. Yeah. All right. Well GG. Thanks again for coming on man. I wish you all the best in your future endeavors. And like I said, look forward to another catch. In the not too distant future. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me and if you like if we ever meet in real life, and there's a time and a place for it. I'd be very interested to explore the Psychedelic World. Well, yeah, man, let's do that you I'll send you a link afterwards about some of the interviews I've done before but more than happy to be a resource turn the tables and be a resource for that stuff for you. Awesome. Sounds good. All right, brother. Take care. Thank you.
**Apologies for the audio on this one, new set-up didn't go so well, lol. It's worst at the beginning. ** Gigi is another guest which I first came accross on Twitter. I thought he was putting out some well-articulated and insightful tweets, so I checked him out a little bit further. I then came across two great resources which he has put together: 21lessons.com and bitcoin-resources.com. In the first, Gigi grafts his own journey learning about bitcoin, onto the classic tale of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, in an informative and entertaining way, available in both written and audio format. It's a very convenient way to get caught up on bitcoin. In the second, he provides a collection of great content for those who want to dive deeper, it too is a great resource full of useful information. No particular angle in this chat, just thought it might be fun to connect and geek-out about bitcoin for a while. We touched on some of the important narratives around bitcoin, and how more are emerging all of the time, drawing ever-more diverse people into the space. Of course, we got a little cosmic too, because, well, it's fun:) Enjoy! 