Welcome to carry the fire a podcast where we explore the big questions of life through the lens of the good the true and the Beautiful. I'm your host Dustin Kensrue and my hope is that through these conversations with people of diverse and Divergent backgrounds and beliefs. We can Glimpse the world in new through each other's unique perspectives.And so although our society is set up to be punitive. Although the name that's often given to that is like a corrective system with actually corrective as people being shown their goodness in such a way that they don't have to keep escaping the pain that comes from feeling not good enough. Hello, everybody. Welcome to episode 4 of the carry the fire podcast today on the show. We have Hillary McBride Hillary is our therapist researcher speaker and writer. She's co-host of the liturgist podcast. She holds a masters of arts in counseling psychology and is also currently a PhD candidate at the University of British Columbia in counseling psychology in our conversation. We get into a wide variety of topics related to embodiment and mental health. We discuss why we're often so disconnected from our bodies and what we can do. That it we explore connections between evolutionary biology and it's connection to morality and Consciousness and Hillary share some practical advice on what to look for when you're trying to find the therapist. All right, let's dive into the conversation. Thank you for taking the like one tiny little window that would work. I'm so glad we made it work and I know you're on the road to so I appreciate that. We could we could make our schedules fit some sort of like time. Jigsaw puzzle. I don't know where we're going. So excited. That's it. Well, the general idea is this it's like it's asking the big questions through the lens of the good the true in the beautiful, but I feel like this idea. Of Wonder is almost this thing that ties those three things together. And so I've been starting asking people growing up. Do you remember what would cause you to feel a deep sense of wonder? Hmm, I think pain hmm, actually both my parents are therapists and it was interesting sitting around the dinner table growing up in hearing about just different clinical presentations and maybe even how Justice or Injustice Otis intersected with mental health it was it's kind of bizarre to think about but as a kid like in my family, that's what we were always talking about. And I remember being in Wonder at how how all of the things that we don't even notice fit together to make our experience of being human how it could be that something that is invisible to us impacts us and creates pain. For ourselves for other people. I think that was probably through through my own experience to having like pretty serious mental health issues as a kid and as a teenager, I was often asking myself questions and other people questions about what does it mean to be human? And what does it mean to feel pain? And what is the reason for all of this? So it's not the kind of like wonder that feels like a flourishing opening thriving kind of wonder that brings us into a sense of magic. Magic, but more of like the kind of painful side of Wonder. Yeah, but it is it's still getting it that complexity like everything interconnecting. Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know if you've ever read any Yuval Harare, he wrote sapiens. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He talks about been talking about Consciousness, which I think will hit on later, but he ends up trying to define consciousness. As the ability to suffer which I thought was really interesting, but that's what I thought it was pain because it is the intersection of all of these different things and the more complex your understanding the more pain you're capable of actually having hmm, but the more I think joy and pleasure and yeah. Yeah, and now I would say that Wonder there are a few things. Things that don't draw me into a state of Wonder and it has a more of like a Vitality. Joyful expansive quality to it, but it feels like the same seed of something that was always there like wondering like you were saying about what what is the thread that links all of this together? And how is everything connected to everything else in such a way that just kind of senses are helps us sensor smallness? Yeah, and even that I mean even that term Wonder it's connected to a Questioning. What what is what is happening? What is all this? Yeah, exactly. Have you answered the question yet. Dustin of what what Drew you into wonder is a kid. That's so funny you asked because I was just I was thinking I need to warn people about this question because it's like a big at least for me if people ask me questions like this. I'm like, oh and I my brain shuts down like how I got to warm people and then you ask me. Especially nature like space stuff like that as at the more we really anything I the more I learned about the world. It would just open up. I'd love thinking about it. And I think looking back what was frustrating is. I was also at the same time handed a worldview that flattened a lot of that out. And so I had this weird experience of Trying to hold them both in my mind at the same time. And so it would dull a bit of that one. Right? I mean at times that's been one of the most beautiful things about deconstructing some of those beliefs and reconstructing is being able to say yes to just what is not trying to be like, oh well that doesn't fit in this Frame. So, how can I ignore it or explain it away, right? Yeah that's been helpful and my sense of wonder you were saying there's some things that do open you up. Now, what will those? Look, like I just got back from Africa like a day day and a bit ago and I was thinking about this a lot on the trip. There. There was these incredibly powerful weather systems that would change on a dime and some of the areas where I was and it just reminded me of that when you were talking about space like, you know out in this big field that used to be a lake not a field more like a desert and Covered with salt because all of the water has been dehydrated and you can see for miles and miles and miles and then all of a sudden clouds and Rain appear and rainbows and you can I don't know if you've seen this. It's pretty it's pretty special. I don't get to see very often in Vancouver because the mountains are all around us, but when a rain cloud is approaching from far away, you can actually see what I mean. Looks like it wasn't there a second ago, and now it's there and it makes me It made me in particular on this trip feel small. Like wow. There's this there's this thing this Earth that we've tried to subdue. We've actually been told it was a good thing to take down to have Mastery over it and to devalue it on some level and and here the Earth is doing whatever she wants and we are kind of powerless to that and there was a few times we had to split because weather systems were so powerful and they were moving in so quickly we have to get out of where we are because we would have been either in danger or just Racked so I think weather systems and then I just moved into this new apartment. I finished a residency in August and moved back to Vancouver. And we moved into this new apartment and outside the front door are all of these incredible rose bushes, and I cannot walk by them without spoiling them. I can't it feels like I have regularly have been light places because I'm a gotcha. I just have to go back and sell them and so I put my whole face right in the bush. As a good living the metaphor, that's right. Exactly. Yeah. No, I have to stop and smell these roses. You know, I have to I'm compelled it's a compulsion almost so I think the sensory Elements of Life are really a really rich for me right now whether smells I was again on the way home from Africa and Europe and feeling feeling my feet on the ground of stones that have been warned. On over centuries Millennia of people walking on them. And and in the way that's kind of erased in the west coast because of what we've done to our indigenous people and their land and how new everything seems compared to Europe because it's just been around for so much longer in Europe, but these Stones feeling my feet on the stones and seeing how worn they are again as a reminder of like how long this human story has been going on in a way that I can. Feel for my feet. Yeah, it's fast. I like that. I like Wonder to think a lot about like when I say Landscapes just thinking about the time it took to create the landscape. Yeah, that makes me feel very very small. But so I'm very in my head naturally, but I've been learning how much I actually benefit from focusing on connecting my body your work with the liturgist or just follow me on social. Immediately your thoughts about that have been been very helpful. Did I could be totally wrong on this but I feel like I was following William Matthews here co-host from the liturgist and feel like he was talking about you introducing him to the concept of thinking about your body as Community. Yeah. I think we were talking about if I'm correct assumption talking about fear and how we can The community on the inside of our body are thinking like I've developed this idea a little bit more sense than but thinking about our body as a family as a system or holding Parts within the whole that allow us to access a sense of together or togetherness on the inside for us, maybe even a relationality even as I'm saying this like I'm touching my chest with my hand in a way that implies like a relationality between myself and myself. So I don't know if that's what you were thinking of or maybe that's what he's I just kind of wanted to hear your thoughts on it because you didn't expound on it, but he was saying was had been really helpful for him. It's interesting even that thought while it seems like it's dividing the Oneness of you. It's somehow like the getting at the connection of the many in your Oneness like brings you a deeper sense of that. Yeah, so allowing there to be Parts within a whole but don't take away from the Nurse or the connectedness but allow us to actually lean into the connection in a way that brings brings us together with ourselves. I think it's like also for a time and for a purpose like there are times when something has scary has happened and I have thought to myself. I'm feeling really alone. I'm feeling terrified and overwhelmed and I don't really know how to get out of the situation and thinking about the parts that live within us, perhaps like a caregiver or of part and the scared part and those being in dialog allows allows me to regulate myself using Parts as a way to help one aspect of yourself, maybe come into some balance so that you can regain a sense of hole because in those moments when we feel overwhelmed, we're not in a sense of Oneness or connected with our cell connectedness with ourselves and all things. There's like a we've leaned into something particularly connected to survival. Things perhaps that takes us away from a sense of knowing we're okay and so we can in the separating or the seeming or the supposed separating of Parts on the inside of ourselves actually bring everything back into balance again, but that means imagining or for me anyway imagining a scared part of me gets some comfort from a really secure knowing connected part of me and that those are in dialogue and because he'd mention being in our head. And I think that but that's for some of us easy to imagine doing cerebrally like okay. There's a discourse between these parts in my in my mind and I can have a dialogue, you know, the scared part says this and then the secure part says this but to do that with our bodies perhaps to acknowledge that there's more to us than ahead and that our body is actually a really powerful way of changing our thinking systems one of the pieces of data that has been really influential for me and understanding the role. The body and shaping what's happening in the head is that we have for everyone neuronal message going from our brain to our body. We have nine going from our body to our brain. And so if you've actually if you're looking at like nine times the data going up to our thinking as going the other way around what we do with our body can actually shift what we're what's happening in our thinking. So yeah using touch using breath using posture using movements. All sorts of things in our body to create a sense of connectedness then can actually kind of shift the stuff that's going on upstairs. Mmm Yeah, that's really interesting it. I think if you ask that someone to just guess that they would guess almost the opposite. I'm sure that's right. Yeah, which is a function. I would say of like a post Descartes World a post Play-Doh World a western a colonization world and maybe even an ant Eccentric world where traditionally sarab reality was a way to leave the confines of our physical existence like there is there's death and lust and pain and suffering and illness in our bodies and going into our brains as been a way to survive and transcend and maybe even to feel a sense of infallibility or permanence like if our bodies are suffering, but we can leave our bodies by going into our minds then then we really are. Invincible then we really do go on that's in I think it's been a great survival strategy. That's really interesting to you. Is that something you've thought about a lot because I was just asking to ask you like where you thought the Western mindset started to shift more to I mean, I know some of it probably comes out of Greek thought which is a bit more heady heady and disconnected. Yeah, we see I think especially in the church growing up in the church as a someone who was really discovering. Feminist identity is often really frustrated with Paul because of the you know Flash versus Spirit dichotomy that were given and I didn't realize until a few years ago that that was Paul kind of puppeting his socio-cultural context. He was speaking through the lens of everybody the the lens that everybody at his time knew that there was like Spirit was one thing and matter or body was another thing and That all shaped we've got Descartes meditations on first philosophy was really said mind and body are separate that was in the 1600s and the Industrial Revolution and all sorts of stuff that happened around wartime with how bodies were used and what was happening in the mind-body split around then really set up our education education systems. I mean, if you look at it, it's really we can trace the back forever and just see that this idea that the mind Just superior to the body influences so much of what we do including right how we survived but also How We Do Recreation look at professional athletes who will say like mind over matter or you need to you need to kind of subdue the body the body is this this problem this thing a machine even if you look at it positively the body's a machine that needs to be controlled and fine-tuned. I'll just to accomplish this goal that perhaps at times Is maybe not healthy or unrealistic or just dismisses the limitations of our physicality in our existence? It's a lot all sorts of people. Yeah much smarter than I have have traced the connections between all these things and it's been really interesting to see how all of that gets woven into our faith and spiritual context, especially like even whiteness. I mean whiteness and the church meant you sit still you stand in an orderly fashion you sing in an orderly fashion. And and I've heard some interesting kind of Liberation theologist talk about why why it's possible for people of color in North America to have been through so much trauma and still be able to have joy. It's like they're moving their bodies all the time in church, like church was an Avenue for dance and sing singing in such a way that allowed them to connect with their physicality and release the trauma in the body in a way that people white people in churches have never been allowed to Do the I've heard it said the the Frozen chosen. Yeah, it's really good. Not only that they're doing something different but generally are unable to imagine that that's not just the right way of exactly existing or worshipping. Yeah. This is the way we've always done it whole self. See you're writing a new book. Mmm-hmm. Yeah, where are you in that process? So about half half done the manuscripts to in March, but it's about all this stuff. So it's kind of top of mind right now. The book is called embodied and I think the subtitle were working with right now is why what you think feel and do when it comes to your body matters for just about everything? That's great. And I yeah talk about disembodiment embodiment emotion sexuality trauma pain and illness the body politic. So how the body is related to experiences of Oppression. It's kind of this. I've had some of my friends refer to it as my Manifesto all of this kind of stuff but it's it's about time that this comes out because all of the all of the stuff about embodiment like the things that I'm quoting for you these ideas, These Scholars have thought through this stuff way more than I have are all primary source philosophy text at this point. Nobody wants to read about embodiment in the original German like Heidegger, whatever. So, yeah, if we're going to change our relationship to our bodies and we're going to become healthier and more whole people. We need sources and discourse us accessible to us. It doesn't feel like, you know, it's over there and just for this for the privileged. So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at with the book about Out halfway, and I'm writing the chapter right now on illness and pain and how we understand illness and pain especially through a lens that our body is good. Mhm, when normally illness and pain are reasons that we like hate our physicality real man. My body is one that I won't just can't get better like what's wrong with I just this pain or this like whatever this thing is really getting in the way of my my quality of life. So trying to The script on that a little bit to see our bodies is good which Probably sounds like different than you and I both grew up with like we probably grew up with the story that the body I don't want to speak for you but maybe that connects on some level the story that the body is bad. And yeah, I just always been fed that even if it's not said it's kind of implied in a lot of ways in the western church. So I was thinking yesterday. So we played a show are in ear monitors were all messed up so I couldn't hear myself very well and I When I can't hear myself very well. My throat does not like it and I because I'm over singing I'm singing too loud to try to hear myself and right so it starts it starts not working like I wanted to and I was totally I think it was in the middle of the show thinking about the relationship of me to my throat and I'm like trying not to be angry at it. And then I was like that's thinking this is probably the same feeling as you get older and older just Like why are you not working body like but I was I was curious if you were gonna dress stuff like that. So I'm excited for the book. Yeah, I will and when I hear you talk about the throat actually think about like what we were talking about just a minute ago about the relationship between Parts like our body is community and like your throat and your ears. We're not in dialogue in the way that they normally are had it wasn't just thrown it was like here is like ears aren't getting the information. Nation that they need to help this feedback system of approach suggests. We scapegoat our bodies when our bodies don't work the way we want them to so we tend to not pay attention to our bodies at all, except if our bodies are doing something we don't want them to and then we get angry at our bodies and it reinforces the Sloop that our bodies are back because we're only ever paying attention when they're not working like air quotes there. It's a really interesting thing to try and flip that and maybe even to bring us back to where we started with Wonder like what? Be like to pay attention to when our bodies are in kind of in a space that feels good and flow maybe even comfort and pleasure. We don't pay attention to our toes until we stop them like we don't pay attention to our throat until it's not working. You're not like on an average Wednesday like throat way to go. Thanks for communicating that order to the cafe attendant reverently and that makes me it makes me think of the idea that you know, you remember Something negative instantly, but to actually like we're taking something that was good. You have to focus on it for like 5 or 10 seconds or something. Do you know I don't like 15. Yeah. Yeah. Have you read any of Eric Hanson's work? This is one of the neuroscientist who's come up with that the velcro theory that because we're because ever survival mechanisms are brain integrates negative or threatening information than 50 milliseconds and it takes about 15 seconds for us to integrate positive. A neutral stimuli. Yeah, and like integrated into our system in such a way that we're taking it in. So we're just so primed to notice the negative stuff and have that be like the overwhelming story. Okay. So it takes so much effort to do the opposite. So if that's true then what does that how does that relate to the way that we relate to our bodies then if we're trying to see them as good. I'm sure going to dress this in the book. But until it comes out. Is there a way that or ways that you would say would help people begin to connect to their bodies as good? Good. Yeah, like noticing just noticing starting by noticing like what does it feel like to be in my body right now? So it like how about you and I do this and we can ask the listeners to do this along with us, but pay attention to how you're sitting right now for a second. And if you were to drop into your body like do you want to do you want to shift? Is this the most comfortable way to sit or does it up? Nice? Yeah, so like adjusting I did that to my shoulders come back a little bit. Okay, we need to address the microphones because wow like we were perhaps both of us. I saw both of us. I'm just looking into the mics and like didn't I didn't even notice that I was just in my head thinking about it and then we decide we're going to adjust and I see you adjust and then I adjust and like okay now I need to shift my chair up a little bit more so we don't really pay attention to right so it starts by paying attention and just noticing and that's a that's a pretty classic a mindfulness practice as not is not paying attention to just the hard stuff but training our brain to be with whatever's And happening to be in it and then I would say when you notice stuff that feels really good. Try to stay with that for a few seconds longer than you normally do if you like the taste of something in your mouth, like try and Savor that thinking about holding it with you almost as if you're trying to crystallize it so that in 20 years from now if you never had that same piece of chocolate or that same beer or whatever it was again that you could come back to this moment because you so deeply connected to the memory in the sensory. Formation, we just don't pay attention to stuff like that. Yeah, it made me think when you're talking about that this disconnect especially that I saw growing up in the church with so this kind of relates to the Past like 10 minutes. We've been talking about but all of these ways of noticing your body whether it's sex or eating something delicious are feeling the grass beneath your feet. They're really ignored. and whatever your concept of God is I view all those things as as worship as this connection to everything and all of that's been stripped out in a certain way of thinking about religion and it becomes about just this Ascent to a certain set of doctrines and worship is you singing a certain kind of song and standing a certain kind of way and Everyone's being forced into that in general. I mean, so I think what happens is that kind of way of worship works for some people and doesn't work for a lot of people and they just sit there feeling like I guess I something's wrong with me that I don't feel right, you know this right now, right? So like there's that we confuse what what might be true about these ideas in our faith tradition with the culture of How It's been done by a certain group of people. People who had a lot of power who thought things should happen a certain way and it's really hard to tease out I think for so many of us that worship could be something else and that it was just a story one one option one story of how things could go. Yeah, I think about the irony of all of this being that for those of us who grew up in Christianity like whole idea is incarnations. Yeah. The whole idea is like God was like, you know what let's let's do this in the body so that you can None of the divides that you've created actually exist that your flesh can be part of this story of God to yeah, and I and we missed it. We're like, okay that's cool like for you to Jesus or like that idea two thousand years ago, but that that can't be true of my physicality that God is somehow outside of My Flesh that God is somehow distinct from what's happening right now in this moment of sensory. Ants and and I wonder if we miss the whole point in that. I think we do and I I've really enjoyed learning from Richard. Rohr and other people this the idea of the franciscans have for a long time understood the Incarnation to have begun at the Big Bang or whatever the beginning of everything is like that is the information what we generally call. The Incarnation is a picture of that happening at a smaller level or a more specific. Away, but yeah, I think about it too like God saying, oh you didn't get it. Okay, I'm gonna make it real easy for you to get I'm really gonna do this like in the body this time just so you know, it's all connected because we didn't go to the first time around back to this idea of kind of Andhra centrism in in Western philosophical thought that it it's a particular slice or flavor of Faith to say that spirituality is just about Transcendence about leaving what's happening and there have been many many many traditions and branches within Christianity that have said you forgotten about imminence you forgotten about the right now and buy only ever saying leaving what's happening right now is the way to get to God you miss that God is right here right now all of this unfolding so Eminence has been for me. Really important, I would say shift and direction in my faith and spirituality of the last few years of realizing. Oh, I don't have to leave what's happening. I can be right here and trust that I'm in in it all as it is as I'm doing the dishes as I'm sitting with a client in therapy as I'm doing a podcast with you, whatever it is. I'm doing my taxes like this is this is all God unfolding. Yeah, absolutely. So I have some questions from patrons that I really prefer and if they were very very excited that you were coming on. Oh, there's a lot of response and people were excited. So one of the patrons chased remain says so as you help people through personal struggles mistakes hardships, excetera, do you view people as inherently good inherently evil or something more complex? How does your view on this affect your counseling methods / ideologies? What a good question. I think of people is inherently good. It in learning about trauma and Trauma Theory really that was kind of the beginning of my unfolding of what I previously thought was sin. So these things that we've been told are really bad and sinful are often really just people's bodies and nervous systems responding to pain in ways. The only ways that they know how the more I understand neurobiology. Like how are or even interpersonal neurobiology how we're connected to each other how that shapes our nervous systems how that shapes how we we cope and Thrive. It seems like everything has a purpose but sometimes the purpose is that of the behavior that we engage in like stealing or substance use or hurting other people like it's not prosocial. It's not really adaptive for our current environment, but it makes sense on some level be it hormonal an emotion regulation level or some sort of pre-modern level as our as our systems are just doing what they were evolved to do a long time ago. So It helps to see people as good because it allows me to be in a room with people who are really hurting and I've hurt other people and help them see the story of themselves that they weren't usually shown the interesting Paradox in therapy is that it's often the people who who have been shown the least compassion and love and security and stability that have the most challenging and problematic presentations of their mental health. And so although our society set up to be punitive. Have other the name that's often given to that is like a corrective system with actually corrective as people being shown their goodness in such a way that they don't have to keep escaping the pain that comes from feeling not good enough. There are some people that I find it really challenging to work with people particularly people with paraphilias. I find it really hard to hear about those stories. So I've decided because I can't model to them their goodness that I can't do the work that that they deserve to have in the room. So I've decided there's some people that are just it's really challenging for me to work with but man it really informs everything about the way that I do therapy. It's different to sit in a room with someone who believes you're good and helps you see that goodness in such a way that it allows it to come to the Forefront versus sitting in a room with someone who's like, okay you have a problem. I'm going to change you which really tends to lead us back into the same system that got us stuck which is like I need to earn my enough. Yes, I need to earn my value and I just don't think that's that's kind of how it works developmentally. Well, we're on the methods ideologies. I was going to ask you a saw you said aedpa accelerated the experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy is your favorite. Look at favorite method of that's rolling off the tongue counseling. Could you tell us a bit about what that is and why you're so fond of it. Mmm-hmm. So that's something I've been doing training and for the last little while and it's one of the things that I do there's a lot of things that I do particularly trauma based therapies, like EMDR or any somatic work anything that connects us to an attachment system, but ATP is really really exciting and important for me because it it hits at this this thread that we're all connected to each other and that we don't we don't At our wounding and isolation, but we don't heal our wounds and isolation either and I we can use right relationship with each other to help us reset our internal self system because if you actually look at like what the self system is, it's it's a conglomerate. It's a kind of like the pulling together of all of the interpersonal interactions we've ever had particularly the ones with people who were supposed to take care of us and our most important to us the people who we've assumed like assigned the most value to and all of those micro interactions and macro interactions shape the way that we see ourselves and what we believe about ourselves. Do we believe we're good. Do we believe that we're okay that we're safe that were dangerous that were, you know, we need to be ashamed of ourselves so we can use relationship with people who see who we really are to help us write our sense of self on the inside. The other thing that I love about ATP is it hints at how Aloneness is so most of our experiences of pain have not been or like fragmentation in our in our experiences a humid have not been necessarily because they've been awful but awful in such a way that no one understood or that we didn't have someone with us to help us make sense of them or we felt like we had to choose between what was true for us and connection and in losing the connection. We retained a sense of knowing about who we are but We lost the desire or the ability to be in community with people that were important just a sidebar like one of the most important theories that we have about mental health issues right now. Is that mental health issues and depression and anxiety to addictions panic attacks trauma our emotion regulation disorders that it's our inability to notice what we're feeling and feelings again are in the body notice what we're feeling and respond appropriately given any social context or what's going on around Us and what we need to accomplish at that time. So ATP is really about looking at how we how healing is there in us. We don't need to work for it. We just need to find it and we can heal in context where with someone who can show us how to emotionally regulate and teach us how to feel in ways that we often haven't been allowed to feel or haven't been taught to I wonder does that require a different presence from the therapist? In that kind absolutely is that is that you find that draining or is it life-giving know? It's like it feels like the most exhilarating thing in the world like the thing about doing therapy and being being in therapy in the way that I don't know. I guess we often see portrayed in the media on on TV that there's this kind of detached Blank Slate person who every once in awhile pipes up and says something but it's kind of passively taking notes the rest of the time like it feels like I have to reduce the fullness of my Humanity to do therapy in that way. I have to like be there but be kind of invisible and doing therapy in an attachment oriented way. That's really about the connection between me and someone else means that I get to be in the room to I get to have feelings I get to share those feelings and say wow like when you said that I felt so sad that someone hurt you if I felt sad or like whoa hearing about how well this week went. I'm noticing because I care about you. I feel really proud of you. I I feel really excited. And so I'm allowed to feel things too. And that means that I get to be fully human in a room and connect with someone too. It's very cool. And I think everybody on some level wants an interaction like that like we it's confusing at first because what we've been told about therapy is that you just come and talk Ad nauseam, you know for 50 minutes and then you write a check and what we know about like the Neuroscience of transformation is that that's actually not how people change they don't change. Based on Insight. They don't change based on talking and having a solitary experience and having someone just there being passive we change by having a corrective experience where we were previously alone and now we're not alone or something felt overwhelming and now it's not overwhelming or someone never said, I'm sorry and then we hear like, I'm sorry or we didn't get to say the thing. We wanted to say now we get to say say the thing we wanted to say, so just just talking doesn't actually create change. There's the kind of a doing something that has to happen and it's super effective in light of that. How do people find that in he had a therapist like what what should people be looking for? Because I think it's a scary thing to try to without going into like, you know, trying to break down all the different methods, whatever it like what what is something that people should be looking for in a therapist that they're trying Yes, I always say to people when you look for someone look for someone who who you feel safe enough to be uncomfortable with someone who really feel like a showing up in the room with you and is is going to name things that are hard for you to see on your own so someone who's engaged and involved. Generally we might call that attachment based or experiential relationally driven. So those are words keywords that people can look up at they're doing a Google search for therapist, but there's also an ADP therapy. The Search tool on the website. They DP Institute that you can look up for a therapist in your area. But I always say like getting a room with someone and see how it feels and if it feels like they're really present with you and you feel like you want to go hard places with them and it would be okay to go to the hard places and that's probably a good fit for you. So right now we seem to be in the middle of a movement towards a more egalitarian way of living in the world where gender roles don't need to be defined in the way that they might have been in the past or reinforced by patriarchal structures. And I personally welcome that but I also find it fascinating as I look at how those structures seem to emerge in certain ways from an evolutionary background in the sense that non-human animals. Form certain roles instinctually and are biologically programmed for them. So the interesting thing to me is that we've reached a point in the development of Consciousness where we're able to look back and see ourselves and decide if we want to move Beyond these structures that biological programming has previously had a large role in placing us. So first off. Do you have any pushback on those assumptions that I'm making here? Is this your One or is this a list of this is mine. Ah, good good. I think that Consciousness allows us to consider felt experience in a way that we haven't before so like I'm watching this series of animal documentaries on Netflix right now and like looking at mating rituals and just how how animals treat each other's bodies. There is a function there in terms of like how the parts work and what's being accomplished in in some sort of like mating ritual. But what's not being considered through the lens of Consciousness is what does it feel like for each person? How does that work? Does it does it promote the dignity and the full Humanity of the other person? So when we start to look at this tension, I think that there are lots of ways that we can excuse problematic Behavior by saying well, it's how we have evolved. It's you know, it's the biology but we also like wipe our butts after we go poo with toilet paper instead of our hands so there are some things Things like we've evolved to that. We're like, this is absolutely a necessity that we do this and animals don't do that and we have decided that it's good for our Humanity. So the line of questioning feels kind of problematic because it seems to only want to challenge the things that have in created a sense of power for one group and not for the other but we tend to not Challenge from an evolutionary perspective the things that we No are not good for all of us like hygiene practices. So the the challenge that people have around the evolutionary biology pieces that it disrupts power and that it makes a makes us think about lived experience in a way that we haven't had to up into this point. And so yeah. Those are those are kind of my initial thoughts. I think even your initial response talking about that. What does it feel like like in that situation? It is kind of where I'm trying to drive to is what does that say about what Consciousness is and how does it relate to what we view as moral goodness. Mmm-hmm. Yeah. Do you have a sense of what Consciousness is or kind of a working Theory? I'm into process philosophy a bit. So I feel like there's some truth to this idea that. Consciousness kind of goes all the way down to a certain degree and it's our Consciousness is clearly more complex than a dogs or even more than ants and whatever but that there's some kind of thread there. But what I find interesting is that we Som have gotten to this place where we can look back and be like, I don't know if we want to be like that anymore like what that's right? Yeah. What what is it look like so For me this ties in to morality in the sense that we now get to decide to build a morality or to be aware of one that is built out of trying to understand the connections and the lived experiences of people that are not ourselves. Yeah. Yeah, it's complex and man. I mean when we add the conversation of evolutionary biology into it feels important. to acknowledge that most of the things that were conscious of we don't even know we're conscious of so, there's like a consciousness of which we are aware and then there's a Consciousness that we carry within us that we are not aware that is is constantly shaping conscious thought so paying attention to information and stimuli coding sensory memory all of the stuff that happens on a subcortical level that isn't our actual the the kind of thoughts that we are aware of that you and I can reflect on and dialogue about there's a Consciousness that we're carrying on the inside that is actually shaping those thoughts that we don't really even know of most of the time that could be embodied that could be sensory that can be environmental that could be cultural and so as we're having conversations about Consciousness, we can be aware of the fact that we are conscious of lots of things but not always conscious about everything that We're conscious of that's interesting. I wonder do you think that over time like if you tried to imagine way into the Future Would a bunch of those unconscious elements that are influencing everything would those shift slowly along with the way that our conscious thought shifts the way that our society begins to act differently together. Like I wonder if it gets to the point eventually or could that a lot of those things? That are getting in the way now from a certain evolutionary past that no longer is making sense with our present if those would start to shift. I guess a lot of them were pretty deep but pretty deep. Well even let's just take a singular human and their life like there's something called dissociation that can happen which is when we're in a heightened state of distress our physiological arousal our ability to encode memory changes and the part of our brain responsible for conscious thought actually X kind of functionally from the part of our brain that stores memory so we can be storing memory about environmental cues, like smells or sounds or Landscapes that are logged into our trauma response system of which we have no conscious memory. So we're walking along the street and we sell smell something or see something and we jump and we freaked out and have no idea. Why does it were having a panic attack? But our body is remembering how whatever the environmental cue is. For exposed to reminds us of some trauma that we have. So we're in that moment freaking out having a panic attack and we've got a few options about how we make sense of that because we're dry driven constantly in our kind of our hyper-rational society to try and make sense of our reactions. So we turn on ourselves what's wrong with me. I'm having a panic attack. This is horrible. I can't believe it. I'm weak. I should be in control. We blame the environment what's wrong with you? You know the the driver that just drove. By we swear at them we scream at them we hide we disconnect we distract ourselves. And so there's all of this Behavior that's going on and then there's a story that were telling about that behavior, but we have no idea that our body system our Consciousness on a subconscious or pre reflective level is shaping our behavior that then we are conscious of but we don't understand the level of Consciousness that shape the behavior in the first place. Yeah, so Yes, there's all of these evolutionary things that happen on a big picture like why is dissociation a function of our neuron anatomical function? Why is it that the The Junction between our frontal lobe and our limbic system stops communicating blood flow when we get overwhelmed that's an evolutionary mechanism that could change over time if we felt safe enough as a species. I'm hypothesizing that we wouldn't need to engage in that kind of response anymore. But I don't know if we'll ever be. conscious of some of the things that are unconscious accept that will become more conscious of how unconscious they are just being more aware that there's a lot going on beneath the surface that yeah, which I think is really helpful to know what I think it can give you more grace for yourself and for other people because absolutely I definitely grew up with this idea of It is as if everyone had the same ability to respond to the same situations in the same way and you're like we did you do good or did you not do good? Did you and it's like perfect. Are you create like sorry. That's another name we cannot but in saying it but there's just no way that that's a Level Playing Field on so many different things. And so if you can start to understand that that level there's not a Level Playing Field that people's nature and nurture our Totally in different spaces than yours. Yeah. Just yeah, I don't know it gives you a lot more compassion. I think oh absolutely like even a person who was in a repeatedly traumatizing environment to the point that they're nervous system got habituated to that and then we look at that person and say why are you re creating all of these problematic relationships in your life? Why do you keep engaging in this behavior that behavior and and yes, we want to hold a person accountable in such a way that we say to people you you can change we know it's possible. But what we don't know often when we're looking at someone who's doing something that seems problematic is that's probably the only or best choice that they have at that time up until the playing field gets leveled a little bit and then there's the option and support to do something different. But if we like kind of go back to your question around we could say gender or sex if we're looking at all of these things that shape our Consciousness that the Consciousness were aware of that were not even necessarily conscious of a lot of those are related to social programming in the things that have been reinforced in US culturally and interpersonally around like what kind of behaviors are valuable and who gets the most power and how that power is distributed and why that's valuable. and how we distribute rewards societally that reinforced to continue behaving in these in ways that condone these scripts around gender or sex and and so the question even the question I think we should be conscious of like why is why is our push back on the dissolving of gender scripts pointing to maybe even some conditioning of our Consciousness that were not aware of is it possible that That that are resistance to the changing discourse around gender or perhaps the redistributing of power to lots of different people. Is there is there a reason why maybe that feels uncomfortable for some of us based on who's had power and what's felt comfortable and what feel scary if things start to change that I mean, that's really what I'm trying to get out by asking it is you have a social conditioning you have certain biological things and Both can be kind of leaned on to maintain certain power structures and well not and then you have a third piece would be like a religious piece really? Well, this is the way that you know, we think God made it to be for XYZ reasons. So if you lean on all of that it becomes very very strong force in society. I think so hard stuff seemed to shift for sure. Yeah, especially like I think religious system. Eames as much as we like to give it some sort of special status is just another social contacts just another social code. The difference is that were explicitly told in religious religious context that this is the right and ultimate code that determines the future of all mankind. So there is a kind of Gravitas to that in a way that makes us ascribe more value to it than say like something we see in you know in a magazine or at school. How important for you are mental health diagnosis I can they be constraining or freeing is it I said when you're when you're treating someone is that something that you feel like is important to figure out a certain diagnosis. Hmm. Yeah, I'll answer that in two ways. I've had lots of diagnosis in my life particularly when I was really struggling with an eating disorder and was in treatment. and for many many years it felt like a man every time I saw a new psychiatrist, I was getting another diagnosis and then I would meet someone and see see them look at my file and see all the labels in such a way that I felt this shift in the room between us where like I was all of these things and everything that we were doing from this point on was through the lens of the labels that were listed on that piece of paper in the file and and my Science of diagnosis was at times really dehumanizing. So I think about it really cautiously. My framework is not so much necessarily to look at people through the lens of pathology but more to look at people through the lens of like, how does this make sense on how do we help you experience the conditions under which you can then maybe not need some of these coping behaviors or perhaps your biology shifts a bit because you got what you needed. I would say to kind of come back to the question though it really Depends on the person and this is primarily the way that I practice is really person-centered. So I'm not going to decide if it's helpful for you you get to decide if it's helpful for you and if having a label has been dehumanizing and objectifying and made you feel like you are or your problems. Then we're probably not going to use that label. But if you have been suffering so acutely and you're feeling like you're losing your mind because you don't know how to make sense of everything sometimes saying hey, there's a name for this. There's a bunch of other people you could connect with that might help you feel less alone. Then then it probably is really helpful. But again, it depends on the person and what the person needs and I tend to not make my mind up about that until I meet someone and hear what they think about it. That sounds like a good option having some way of understanding our behavior in such a way that we can feel relieved about it having a function like, oh they're this is the reason I do this and then the people Close to us in our lives can also go. Oh your oh you're doing that that way not because you don't love me or not because you know, you're selfish and not because you're whatever it's because you're trying to get this need met or this makes sense in some way and I think it just speaks to our our desire to understand ourselves and we could bring that back to the Consciousness conversation in a way that perhaps is new on the seam for us as humans to to want to understand and be reflective of ourselves in such a way that we make sense and can feel at ease with ourselves. But yeah labels or categories can sometimes be extremely relieving and empowering. Yeah. I found the wedding room very helpful. Just how it any Graham is generally viewed by mental health professionals right now since it's not a scientific kind of way of getting out of it, but it has proven to be very helpful to have two people. Yeah, so I'd like as a scientist and researcher and as someone who is part of my licensure has to use empirically validated methods like that's a really important part of being credentialed is saying like I understand the science behind why I'm using MDR for this instead of that. What I often say to people is we don't have empirical data but empirical data isn't the be-all-end-all. I want you to know that if we use this and our work together that it's not because I can say in a, you know 12-course. Of randomized control trials these people found this and right it's more about if you understand yourself in such a way that it allows you to feel like you can be compassionate towards yourself and other people if it helps you feel like you're growing and getting eyes to see things that were previously unconscious like it doesn't really matter to me how you're doing that if it's helping you be well and flourish and take responsibility for yourself and he'll do it use it. My caveat is always like I don't have the research for this but that's probably just because I could probably have to say that for my license and to remain credible in my field to distinguish between what we have evidence around and what we don't but just because we don't have evidence for something doesn't mean it's not effective or important. It just means we perhaps don't have the framework to capture its efficacy yet and we will at some point in the future and the Enneagram is a really for me and for the people that I work with and people in my life a really really helpful tool for knowing them knowing Yourself by my struggle with the Enneagram is when we use it to box other people and or we use it as a shorthand to get to know someone in such a way that actually like kind of fragments the complexity of a person or their knowing that that I struggle with and don't love but if people are using it for themselves or as a way of building compassion between people I think it's Really Exquisite to us. I think that building compassion is huge because I think you end up making assumptions about other people's motives. Anyway, right like without ever knowing so having a tool to maybe at least push back against your whatever you were thinking before like, oh, they're just doing this because this and if you have a tool that's like maybe it's actually this and usually I feel like the the reason that you see with the intagram like that whatever that deep fear or hurt or whatever. It is that humanizes the behavior that you're bothered by right that they might be doing. That's right. Yeah, I can I can see how that would feel like that which comes back to the like the one of the first questions that one of the patrons asked around bullying people are good. Like I think the Enneagram helps us see people as being good and when we believe people are good and they're doing their best we have way more compassion for them and I can't imagine a world where having more compassion for people or believing in their goodness would Really impaired are flourishing or well-being. I think it's it's one of the most beautiful ways for for me to live to see the good in other people, but I think it also is part of what would help us all heels. If we saw the good in each other and assumed that even if we didn't understand something that there was a probably a story underneath it that made sense of it. I think that's a choice at the end of the day that we get to make to say. We're good cool. That's a great spot to end. So you've got the new book coming out. It's called it's called embodied or in body. That's it embodied. Yeah, that's coming out. You have a book out called Mothers Daughters and Body Image learning to love ourselves as we are Hillary L McBride.com Hillary element Bride on Twitter and at Hillary Liana McBride on Instagram. You got anything else that people should be looking for looking for you out there? Yeah there I have a podcast on CBC. Yeah, which is called other people's problems. It's a podcast where with A patient's permission. We put microphones in the session. You can hear me doing therapy with people and talk about kind of in in voiceover segments that interrupts or break up the therapy session why people are doing what they're doing how I making sense of it. So for people who are new to therapy or trying to understand it or want to kind of get more insight into themselves that can be a great place to head. That's other people's problems. And then as you mentioned on the liturgist podcast and All of that related stuff. Awesome. Well, thank you so much Hillary for taking the time. I appreciate it. If you have a moment today, it would help a ton. If you could leave us a review on Apple podcast and share this episode with a friend. Be sure to follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram at carry the fire pod. 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On today's episode, we are joined by Hillary McBride. Hillary is a therapist, researcher, speaker, and author. She’s co-host on The Liturgists podcast. She also holds an M.A. in Psychology and recently earned her Ph.D. at the University of British Columbia in Counseling Psychology. In our conversation, we get into a wide variety of topics including embodiment and mental health. We discuss why we are so often disconnected from our bodies and what we can do about it. We explore connections between evolutionary biology and its connection to morality and consciousness. And Hillary shares some practical advice on what to look for when you’re trying to find a therapist. **We are offering a special opportunity to support the show early through Patreon. If you are new to Patreon, it is an effective way to support the creators that you already love, or discover brand new ones. When you sign up to become a patron of the show, you are partnering with me in this work, helping me to cover costs and to invest the necessary time to make the podcast both great and sustainable. Not only that but as a patron, you'll also gain access to a variety of patron-only episodes, exclusive content, and perks, as well as a patron-only online community where you can interact regularly with myself and other patrons and have the opportunity to give input that will help shape future episodes. By joining Patreon before the end of the year, you will be inducted in the Flint & Steel Founders Club, where you will receive special perks beyond the tier incentives. To start, you will receive a limited edition Flint & Steel enamel pin, that will ship out at the close of the year. Thank you in advance for your support, you can begin your support here > SIGN UP ON PATREON** FEATURED LINKS Hillary McBride Website AEDP Institute Therapist Query Rick Hanson Ph.D. - Take in the Good SHOW LINKS Carry the Fire Podcast Website Instagram  Twitter Support the Show on Patreon Hoster by Dustin Kensrue | Produced by Andy Lara at www.andylikeswords.com 