It's so tough for me because she suffered all the consequences of being this you saying that to end it like when you admitted you're greedy or do you actually feel like you were a shaman had the end of my sentence of how hard I'm about to drag Natalie. So let me let me finish my fucking sentence. What's up, guys? Welcome to the dark depths of hell. I am with the flower Queen Instagram phenomenon. That is Caroline Calloway. Welcome to Hell. Thank you. I've been here for quite a while. If you've been reading the news if you don't know who she is. I don't know you haven't been looking at the news which might be mentally healthy for you for both of us. Isn't that case? Yeah. Just fucking Google your name if you want. Or I'm going to give you a little summary but like the cut the New York Times L anywhere that writes anything has been writing about you for over a month actually since January since January. Okay, this is good your fact-checking me also l.com just came out with how to dress like Caroline Cowboy for Halloween, which is pretty epic. Yeah. So obviously I'll be talking to my therapist about that. Yes, that will be crazy. Yeah. Your therapist is probably good time with you. She's like, what is it today? It's actually a he is that so crazy. My therapist is a white male, but he's amazing. He's doing a great job. How long have you been with him? Honestly since since going viral as a scam back in I went viral as a scam in January and I was like, okay, I really can't handle this alone and like March and splurged for some of that really good, you know therapy capital of the world. York City creme de La Creme of mental health care and yeah, just very expensive but very worth New Yorkers love therapy and talking about the therapist and I love New Yorkers and pretending to be one and talking. Yeah, you're kind of becoming this like New York it girl but people have a wide range of emotions with Caroline if you guys are listening it's like from hate to love to confusion to projecting a lot of shit going on. My first experience with Caroline is were sitting here and she looked at me and she said you have some mascara on your cheek and gently wipe to It away and that's my only experience of fire which has been very positive and means we trust each other. She's looking she has my back. I wanted to ask you on this podcast because this podcast is for people who are raw and they're open you are one of the most raw people on Instagram and this podcast is about people opening up about their inner demons. I think people just aren't used to people saying exactly how they feel and especially in hyper educated. Hi. Ironic hyper cool urban areas like New York where it's not only the norm to be guarded but it's cool to be detached. I think just people who are really open are not only like sort of low-hanging fruit for who to make a joke of but they're also an easy target for disbelief and suspicion. Wow, would you ever start a podcast and no, but I went to Cambridge so I hope that all of my professors who told me I would never put my expensive education to good use being an instagramer are eating their words. Now that you said that to the you go fuck themselves on this podcast. Yeah, they really will never hear it. So I'm asking you can go fuck yourself. Actually. He was the only one I like that's so crazy that his name can't really been ski can go fuck him. Okay, I take I loved massing. I you just tip of my tongue. I Loved You Professor massing my God. He's actually a huge fan of the pod. Like he is our biggest patreon supporter. So I want to give people a brief rundown on your last couple months. She's just kind of become this like internet and in the New York Times did call me a New York City at girl. I will and York City at girl paper of record and Me On The mean world. It's like there's a me. My favorite one is me trying to explain Caroline Calloway to my friend and it's like just you can't like there's just shit everywhere. It's so fascinating complicated and I don't like read the cut but like obviously It came up through friends or whatever and then you got me I was in I followed U the second I read it. I was fascinated by the story. I'm here's a quick rundown Caroline is a fact check you as yeah fact you just jump in. She's had a large Instagram following where she's known for her well-written long caption. Correct makeup Carolina. Oh, this is good. This is from Caroline sold a book proposal for a large sum, but didn't deliver the manuscript in time and had to pay some of the advance back incorrect I paid Have it back like a truce and I did not pay a single fucking dollar back of that advance, but it wasn't that I ran out of time. It was that I sold a book that I didn't want to write which is really worse than trying and failing. I set myself up for failure, but I was 23 and addicted to drugs and very deeply depressed and I thought that I would be happy. You know signing copies of the Memoir that was about only the best parts of me for the rest of my life. And once it came to like actually writing it it felt right. I was like, oh my God, there's not enough money in the world though will make me live this life. Like this is I don't this is not why I did you ever try writing something different or you just doing now and that's why I haven't paid any of it back is because luckily for my Publishers. My Memoir is now worth more than what they paid me for since I am a hundred times. Famous then when they bought it from me and yeah, I'm I didn't lie to them in the proposal. I didn't you know, I went to Cambridge. I dated the polo players and went to all the balls but I left out my diction. I struggled with mental health and the book that I'm writing has all of that Beauty Plus all of the pain that I didn't include the first time around which is very important because I feel like you wouldn't want to write a book eggs. It comes from like when you're a real identity isn't what you're showing. Oh my God. Yeah, correct. Correct. Correct. That is like the most true thing. And when did you will let me go to the next thing in January. She hosted a series of creativity workshops for followers. It didn't work out as planned and she had to like refund or cancel some of them and the internet went nuts comparing it to a fire festival type scam. Although you give people their money back. Well, correct. Incorrect, and correct people did compare it to fire Festival. I mean God, what a what a dream headline for the internet age influencer scammer fire Festival. I mean like even as I saw those headlines coming out about myself, I was like and wishing that they would stop I was like, but I would click on this like I'm part of the problem like I would a hundred percent fucking devour this story. So even while I was like, Wishing for it to end. I was at the same time had a lot of compassion for the appetite that was driving it. But the thing is the events went exactly as planned that what's really fucked up about that whole situation is that it's not journalistic malpractice in this day and age to cite a tweet as a source and I had taken two years off from Instagram to really get honestly to just like grow up without Spotlight and just quitting Adderall and like recovering from that addiction. It really took two years and I really really really really missed the creative Outlet connection platform fulfillment of making digital content, but I really just needed to figure out who I was without, you know, placing a spotlight on myself in the process. And when I first came back to Instagram, I just sort of Of dipped my toe in the water. When was that when you first came back, I would say it started slowly and sporadically there wasn't one day when I was young. I'm back. I would like come back for like a couple days. And I mr. Graham stores. Did you have around that point in a dropped I had had about when I back in 2016 or 17 when I withdrew from Instagram and just really worked on my physical and mental health think I had like eight hundred sixty and you weren't doing ads I've never done I've done one add. Or he's but I've never done a single ad on my grid at because I just see it as my artistic. Yeah media. Yeah, but so I came back to Instagram gradually. I was only working in stories. I wasn't making any posts because I just had so much anxiety about it. And I plan that these creativity workshops via stories, which were these really Niche events for my very Niche community and the events changed from what I regionally thought they would be I planned it all myself. There was definitely a level of disorganization but it all came together and the events went exactly as planned. But this one Scottish middle-aged journalists need this Twitter thread where she took screenshots from what the events were initially going to be with photos of the day of and quilted them together into this Twitter thread that caught internet wildfire and it's it's so frustrating because you know, she didn't Photoshop any of those images those are my stories but it was really horrifying being like slapped in the face with how all of this self-deleting content that just disappears Into The Ether every 24 hours could leave me in such a vulnerable spot where there was like, no proof of how I had changed the event and my followers liked it like if you read and no one cares about the story where it's like entrepreneurial lady plans event that you know, Attendees for whom it was intended enjoyed like no one's writing that headline and a fine. I the smart publicity wise part of me understands why no one is but it's fucked up that are the people who came liked it. Like if even if you read the really negative articles that's like Caroline Calloway the greatest scammer of ever. If you go through those articles and read the quotes that they pulled it's like I had a great time. I got it. I got my money's worth. This is exactly what I wanted. Also insane that just you as like a fellow New York City girl was like I want to do something creative and make some money and then the internet just went nuts over it. It was a six-hour event that I planned myself. So it's not only that I'm charging them for the six hours of the event which included lunch and dessert and coffee and gift bags and journals. I was charging them for the nine to five that. I worked in the six weeks leading up to those events, and I've just like sending all the Emails ordering all the stuff booking the venue. You don't have to prove to me that you're worth that money because you're worth whatever money that people are willing to pay you. You know, I totally agree, but I'm not trying to prove it to you. I think this is something I brought up really just to make a point that it's hard to imagine a young man putting on a six-hour event that he plant himself and the internet taking such delicious delight and tearing him down. We're just so okay with shitting on young women and just putting down what digital creators do and I work in the Nexus of those two, you know cultural things that people love to hate and so I just think it's I'm not trying to convince you but I do think it's worth just like really holding that up to the sunlight and examining how how it would have been different if I were a young man and how how much slower people Would have been to say that I've nothing to offer as a teacher. Yeah, that's so fascinating from had a wild I think about yeah, so your character gets completely attacked being called a scammer. Yes, one of the best headlines like this was the best that was happening to me in January was Caroline Calloway is not a scammer. She's just a self-obsessed mess. That was a real headline. Would you rather be I mean, I was neither. I mean, I guess also Who isn't a self-obsessed mess as in like I like to say we're all playing single player games right now like connections with other people is what we need to be happy. But like I'm not going to sleep worrying about someone else's life worrying about my mess of a life. Yeah, nor should you be wearing about someone else's how did you react to like, you're being called a scammer. Did you try to fight back? Did you try to what did you do? Like, what's the next step to that kind of attack? Okay, if anyone if anyone ever goes viral Scammer. You're welcome for the this is the force. Tummy. Yeah, the four step guide to recover to recover. Honestly at first this is a this is what you shouldn't do. Okay first day day one. I'm getting I'd never gotten the meanest comment. I'd ever gotten before I went viral as a scam. I still remember it. Actually there were two that happened over six years over six years. I got to mean comments because my stuff was just so long and wordy. It was so self-selecting like yeah, people only people who really cared what people who really cared would stick around to read it and that was great because it built like a real how would you describe your community at that time of people who followed you readers? Yeah, the meanest comment the first mean comment I ever got someone told me that one of my exes feet he was a runner and they were like Josh's toes look like gargoyles and I was like you are blocked that I was I was I was Shashi. Yeah. Like oh my God, I was like, how will I go on? Those are perfect. Yeah. It's like help how could people be like this and then someone who was a friend of someone who hated me in college and you know, what, I will be the first to admit that this hate comment is hilarious and a very well-written joke. They were like this reads like bad fan fiction of bad fan fiction and I was like, you're not wrong like yeah, you're getting blocked. But like I see your point and noted. Um, but people do think you've blocked right now. Oh so many I try to block a couple people every day because I really just don't want your like it's called Boundaries. Yeah, exactly. So as you guys know I use anchor dot f m-- to create my podcast and I've been talking to you guys about Before and I've been getting a lot of messages that you guys have had podcast ideas that you are now starting on your own and it's so awesome. Keep sending me your podcast that you guys are creating if this podcast has inspired you in any way or you feel motivated in some way make sure I'm freaking podcast do it. Stop. Stop waiting just do it. Who cares? It's really just fun. You're just talking shit. And then you make people laugh you make people inspired you make people educated whatever you want to put into the world. So if you haven't heard about anchor it The easiest way to make a podcast it's free. There's creation tools that allow you to record and edit your podcast right from your phone or computer. It distributes your podcast to a bunch of different platforms, including Spotify and apple you can make money from the podcast with no minimum listenership. So they send you ads no matter how many listeners you have and it's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. So download the free anchor app. I'm going to Anchor dot f m-- to get started. And if you start a podcast, please DM and send it to me. I'd love to listen. What if I told you that you can listen to any song and any podcast for free? Let me repeat that fo free on Spotify Spotify is the shit because you could share stuff to any other social media platform, especially Instagram and be like yell. I love this podcast by Hannah burner called burning in hell. What's wrong with you? Why don't you listen if you don't listen, I don't be friends with you anymore. That's what I said my friends and it's kind of working. Cut a lot of people out of my life. But anyway, it has a huge catalogue of podcasts on every topic. Now. I know what a lot of you are thinking Hannah. I have an iPhone. Why would I listen to podcasts on Spotify that's for people with Androids and green text and I'm not a loser. Well, you know what Spotify is the shit Spotify is the shoot Spotify is the world's leading music streaming service, and now can also be your go-to for podcasts check it out and enjoy now back to your scheduled. programming of hell Yeah, I just I think people feel so entitled to access to other people. But also just they feel so entitled to free digital content when in fact, it's like I work really hard on this if you suck up my energy that I have for getting my shit done and building my Empire. You can't be here. Yeah. Well Instagram is a big wealth of digital energy and if you can like get your feed to allows the totally like I love cats. I love laughter. I love like looking at outfit. Anesthetics and that's what I want my feet to be. Yeah and if it's other bullshit, I just unfollow. Yeah, and it's not me being a dick. It's just me protecting my boundaries. So first day the scam comes out. Yes, so it comes out and I'm getting flooded with mean comments. In fact before I went. I went viral in the news January 15th, but I went viral on Twitter January 12th, so it took about three days for this Twitter thread to like pick up momentum, but on red Reddit Twitter apparently Seth Rogen retweeted it. So I mean it really grows out all the usually Hollywood meanings. I will be finding Seth Rogen. Oh my God. He actually came up in one of my meetings. I should have been like oh and tell Seth we're good. I'll go fuck yourself. So uh Seth. Rogen is on my fucking shit list. I'm coming for you Seth. That's not Professor can go fuck themselves. You thought I wouldn't notice that you You called me a scammer self. I just start getting flooded with terrible comments, and they're actually start coming in as I'm teaching that the workshops were on Saturday and Sundays and they start coming in our to of this six hour event and having gone from really like never receiving mean comments because I just was in such a quiet little corner of the internet that I'd built for myself and no one no one cared to just being like you're a scammer your Well, you're a bad person. How do you sleep at night? You're such a joke. How are you teaching these people and then to have to really pull it together for the next like four hours, but these events always went longer because I would just stay and take photos with people. It was so hard after as soon as the last person I'd left. It was a blizzard in DC and still everyone came. It was incredible. Did you enjoy teaching? I did you know that honestly, I really really did until I went viral as a scam. I really only enjoyed it for that first day. I like celebrated with my friends after the first Workshop because the events went as planned so that one Workshop was what the one Workshop in New York or no? No, the one in New York. Yeah, and so she had taken the photos from that day and compared them with what I said. The event would be a month ago and I did change the event but I was also really Fucking open about the ways I change the events and like anyone who wanted a refund got a refund. And yeah, and so they did you have to end up doing I ended up refunding everyone because I'm not a scammer and because I just honestly I just now so it wasn't even like a long-term thing you did it like twice. Basically I ended up continuing well, so here's the story first I go viral as a scam. I'm devastated. Yeah. Yeah, I so sad. Odd getting these comments. I'm so confused. I'm just like, you know that feeling of like getting really bad news like via text or email and like your heart just sinks. Yeah it into like a panic to place like the first moments after you get world around you is like spinning in a bad way. It's like that for days like and the next day and the next day as it starts to get picked up like by news places. I was like, I have to make this stop I was in so much pain I would have done Anything to make it stop so I went on Twitter I which I like haven't used in years. I issued an apology. I'm like you guys are right. I am greedy. I'm let my evil get me carried away refunding everyone tour's canceled, please just stop. Why did you decide to give them the like, yes, you're right because I thought I thought they would stop if I did that and you know, it's really the only reason that I am. Ended up becoming this strong and like carrying on with my tour. Honestly, if I had an issue that apology and people are just left me alone and stop cyberbullying me and writing news articles with all this correct incorrect information about me skewing every little thing like I haven't booked venues for dates in April and that became Callaway did not book any venues and you know, when I booked all the venues for like the ones in January and stuff like it's really my brand to sit on the floor. It was like Callaway did not get chairs for the event. Unlike I made a joke being like I cooking is so hard. I'm getting this catered or it's going to be BYO lunch and it was like Callaway forced attendees to bring their own food to the event and I was shocked because I'd always gone my information from the news and I was like, I thought this I thought I thought the news was no it's a news wants to make a good story. They take things out of context. That's what I've learned. I had my experience. How am I? Same but I feel like when you say when you said yes, I feel greedy did party you actually believe them like, you know, what maybe I did charge too much a hundred percent. I mean, I was just crushed into a little ball. I mean now when I see headlines about myself I see the bigger picture. I see how it helps me for my career. I see how silly it is. These journalists think that they might be I didn't know exercising some sort of control over my narrative and the short term when I have so much more confidence in my ability to play the internet like a violin and and make money out of this and make make the stuff that I find creatively fulfilling when I went from never being in the news. I've never getting bad comments to getting a Add comment multiple times a minute to having headlines be like you're bad. I was like, I'm knocking her character. Yeah, it was like I must be bad. I was like I because I think we all sort of walk around the world with that little sort of flickering flame of Doubt inside of our hearts. That's like a my bad. It's like am I am I not good and I think one of our church, there is no such thing as better good. So like it's all perspective and you could go to that place. I think in your head if enough people make you believe that I'm not sure if it's all perspective. I think there are bad actions and good actions. I don't think morality is relative. Welcome to our philosophy podcast agree on that point, but I do think actions, but an overall like you're a bad person I think like is so wasn't wasn't Hitler bad. I would argue that. Yes Hitler did Hitler was bad, but maybe with a therapist. Could have like been good. Like I just think our brains are malleable love bringing Hitler into the conversation the good Hitler. I mean we are in town and a huge that's a dog. Yeah. He's actually he's listening in he's nothing better than a criminal at top producing any are levels right? Just like roaming his mustache, but I was saying but I do I empathize with you as a fellow female entrepreneur that like as a man can charge anything for anything. NG and you know, that's him not being greedy was awesome. He heard a gibe called greedy. So the fact that you had to admit that your you were greedy it like strikes me funny greedy was the exact word. I used in the apology that I wrote on Twitter and I really I really have such new respect for like false confessions because I would have said anything yet you to make that pain stop anything cause part of me was like why didn't you go and say you know what? Planned wasn't what happened because you'd feel defensive. Like if they'd be like, oh you're she just being defensive. It just wanted them to stop and they just since everyone was calling me greedy. I just thought maybe if I was like maybe I say I am they'll stop and then a deeper question of like well, maybe I actually am if everyone's saying this, you know, like it was just so much and so it didn't stop at all. Everyone kept writing about it. I mean like I lost so much money refunding everyone. But I just I was worried that I had been greedy. I was worried about how much pain I was feeling and it would get worse and worse. If you continue to try to do the events. Yeah, because I obviously was a greedy person who had nothing to offer people but these people wanted to see you now, but I'm just saying like how yeah how you felt. I mean like it's hard to it's hard to know what to believe it because I had but I was at these events none of the reporters who had were writing about it on the 15th. Then there and I had and so it was really hard sort of comparing my own experiences of how meaningful it had been two people and how much fun they had with the events that were being described. What's cool about these influencer events. Is that regardless of what you do? These people have been fascinated with you in a purely digital way. So the fact that you're putting yourself out there saying this is me. I'm real In the Flesh. I hate saying that word but in the much and having people meet you like that's what they're really painful. Exactly is seeing you in the flesh and hearing you speak your your truth. And I think that a lot of people don't think that ethically okay for influencers to charge but I think those people are wrong because I give away so my business model is that I give away so many things of value for free in a million moments every day over weeks over months over years. I think it is ethically fully within my rights to to be able to support myself and pay my bills from the parasocial relationship that those moments of free content build and besides your art and your writing your Also if anyone knows this you are kind of a reality TV channel of yourself exact, like people are regardless what's happening. They're entertained by you exposing or your like feelings emotions life events, and they're entertained by you and to meet you in person brings value to their life. I also think after the two Years that I spent off of Instagram. Yeah, I really and you know Twitter would disagree with me even my own words and that apology issued way back in January the day after I went viral would disagree with what I'm saying now, but I've come to the conclusion that like, you know, I really don't know everything about everything but I'm a smart girl and I've had some really hard things happen to me and I've I've responded to them with a lot of creativity and resilience. And I think I I think I have certain lessons to offer people. I also would argue which goes to our next event. So you see you're still stand strong see ya in conclusion, the events went as planned. And yes, they were compared to fire Festival. Yes, because they were just very laughable to people my mean I get it my Brands really Niche. It's like plants and Mason jars sitting on the floor like take photos with flowers in our hair and it just didn't make sense. People so next and was it September that the cut came out? Yes. It's number 12 September one of your former friends girl named Natalie who I can't even find on Instagram. So she do you think I'm like a duck wrote an essay about how she used to help write Caroline's captions back of the day and how she felt used as a friend long story short. Yeah, I would say she also wrote about helping me write my book proposal. Okay, I would add to that because we split the work on that 50/50 and you know everything in her essay is true. Like I was a really shitty friend to her and it's so tough for me because she suffered all the consequences of being this you saying that to end it like when you admitted you're greedy or do you actually feel like you were? Heard the end of my sentence of how hard I'm about to drag Natalie. So let me let me finish my fucking sentence. Why are you so nice make a decision. She suffered all of the consequences of being best friends with an addict and reaped none of the benefits of knowing the young woman that recovery made me into and I feel real guilt about that. I think and I think I should feel Regret about that. I don't think I need to punish myself for I don't know not love myself because of it. But I do think that it's very Natalie's fully within her rights to feel pain for all those ways that I let her down as a friend and in which she didn't even like put the full scope of how I let her down in that essay because just like, oh my god when you're so caught up in like that the blizzard of selfishness that is addiction to a drug where you're prioritizing it. Everyone just like all the moments where I wasn't there when she needed me or text that when unresponded to or times when I was late because I was just like hi to my mind on Adderall and like, I don't know combing my hair too much like it's swimming every hair on your head every hair on my head like organizing my iTunes library because it like had to be done then but just like one more minute would fix it. But um, but yeah, I was a really bad friend to her, but the thing is Is not only did in that essay what I did in 2015, which is that she she lied by Omission. She is not she's sold the most profitable version. Most profitable character of herself and like the real Natalie Beach is not the Natalie beach in that essay. Which before when I was like, hold on. I'm about to drag a really hard. I just knew that would make you laugh and I don't I actually feel really passionately about why it's good business for me to frame this as dragging Natalie or exposing Natalie because we live in a culture that really wants to pit female. Friends against each other and the business video. So yeah, it's quick Beatty and the business-oriented part of my brain understands that but the part of my heart that like wants to be an artist who tells the truth and who like feels like I've really suffered the consequences of living more than most people of living in a sexist World whether it's being, you know judged for not having anything of value to teach or the fact that like, you know, I didn't choose to Two I didn't choose for Publishers to think that young girls only wanted stories about romance. Like I won that game by playing by rules that I don't agree with like I don't think young girls want stories about romance. But like that's what I made my book proposal about because I wanted a fat check, you know, and so I think I just want to be careful about not perpetuating those same sort of just like it would be good. Good business to be like I'm dragging Natalie. I'm exposing her but I don't think Natalie should be punished for the fact that we live in a world that pits girls to against each other and that hates rich girls. Do you think Natalie did it to hurt you because she's not getting frame from this like, what did she get from that? She wants to be a TV writer and she wants to make it as an artist and she was very smart about so in real life not harass a but in real life when we're My book proposal and sort of made the character of me. We had a lot of long chats just as creators about what sort of narrative device would Propel the story both on Instagram and in the proposal and Natalie made very good points about how and long-form narrative people hate the rich. They love the Plucky Underdog and me with all my instincts for Instagram and social media. I was like, that's crazy because on Instagram we should really make me sing richer than I aspirational exactly if you want your content to perform. Well, we need to make me seem way richer than I am and like I've spent visiting Natalie at our house in New Haven and like her house is so much nicer than mine. Like it's just like she's I really really really want to stay away from falling into a space where this is two white girls being like who's more privileged, but the fact is That she a huge narrative piece of her essay is that I had more privileged than her and that I was richer than her when in reality. I was presenting that to the world so that we could both get paid and she was very much aware of that and she never goes so far in her essay because the whole thing is true to say and I thought Caroline was rich, but she plucked out all the details that she knew that I was presenting to the world. So do you think she thinks she'll get like a TV writing gig she already has I can't tell You the details of it but like oh, no, I have an Instagram. I mean she does but it's she does and I can't tell you. Yeah, like I think I can fret I kind of found it and I've been I was like so she doesn't want fame from this. I feel like people want girls to always be caretakers and the fact that you so upfront or like I want money. I want fame. I want Power people are like what when like I'm like that I'm trying to but here's the thing Natalie's like that to accept I would say Natalie doesn't want fame she Glory and I fucking love that about her like Natalie is like the dowdy, you know sidekick that she is in that essay. She has those qualities about her but they are in fact like part of what's so magnetic and Charming about her and she has this whole component of her this Fierce hungry ambition that she very smartly left out of that assay because heard even do that takes ambition. I know but exactly and so there's obviously evidence of it and like I mean, she's so popular as well. Like she was captain of the women's soccer team at NYU because she's not the dowdy sidekick following along. She's literally the captain giving the game plan and she the real Natalie but Beach and not the character of Natalie Beach encompasses all of the insecurities and jealousy and pain and anger that she put in that essay plus all of the beauty that she left out. Of her honestly Charisma in her own way all of her ambition all of her she doesn't like she honestly won't even settle for the sort of Fame that you and I will settle for which is sort of like the femoral Buzz of social media of the daylight. I love a little validation sugar rush. It really does it for me Buzz. Yeah for a drink but that's exactly chacho Macho, but she wants like You know to be a famous writer. She doesn't want to be on social media which is where you're getting confused because you're like she doesn't want followers. So she doesn't want fame. No, no, no, no not only wants like, you know when she dies she wants to go down in history as like one of the great writers in our time and why shouldn't she I hate that even by saying that Natalie wants glory. It sounds like I'm talking about shit against her. No, you're not because yeah, I just want to understand people's motives. I'm like, what was her goal what that for the record I want. It to ya want to go nice as one of the great artists of our time and you know, I would never have been best friends with someone who couldn't keep up with me and didn't share that fierce fierce ambition. Yeah, and also most people have had tons of different friendships. I've had, you know, abusive friendship toxic friendships most friendships. Don't last if you're lucky you have like three close people in your life. So the article comes out exposing this friendship you've had with this girl. What's your next step? Up. Well good things bad things. Well, so not only gave me a heads-up that that article was coming out about a week before it published was awesome. You talk to her about two years. Wow. It's almost like a little like what have you been doing? Like, why are you thinking about me like we're so no, I mean I disagree. I think not only made such smart smart choices by publishing that essay and I really I I do. Feel anger and I do feel betrayal but above all else I feel respect for the intelligence of her being able to as soon as she told me. She was publishing this article. I've always had a better understanding of the internet the Natalie and she would tell me later on the phone that she didn't know it would go this viral like she thought it would be big but not this big and I can honestly say from the moment I got her email. I burst into tears Isabel who's in the room with us next to Adolf on their laptops. She was with me when I got the email and I burst into tears for so many reasons because I was so ashamed of what a bad friend. I'd been to Natalie and you know, I really I really hadn't healed from that regret and at you know, this experience forced me to really speed up that healing process because I just if I didn't reach down into myself and find the strength to work through that immediately no one else could do that for me. So I feel a lot more healed about it now, but I'd really been putting off for those. Years examining the real depth of how I had hurt her and taking responsibility for that like she was kind of being a snitch. Evan said that we're in a while. It's kind of like is you just like telling on you like it see with mean to me to the internet? No, I mean I really I really I just see it in such a larger context of the smart business move. Like I had she started working on the essay. She's later. Tell me in February which is the viral news storm that started January 15th. It lasted for about a month which is in say she wasn't considering I wanted it to that last that long because although it was really hard at first and it really crushed me the first few days. I was really strong and I knew I wasn't running a scam and that was the number one thing I had going for me. Yeah, so I invited reporters to my events and I was I was terrified but I also kept putting one foot in front of the other and I understood that the more press I got the more that I could leverage this down the road because people's memories are very short and I'm very smart and I really believed in my ability to outlast and outthink the fickle attention of the internet. And so would you be friends with Natalie again? We are friends. I mean not in the like not best friend. Yeah, I get stressed out about texting her for sure, but I definitely don't use this against me. Yeah. Yeah, definitely overthink it a lot and I definitely text her being like I'm not sure if this is going to be in an essay of yours, but because I just at least if she puts it in an essay she won't be able to make me seem as if I were I mean she can really make me seem however she wants but but she's a really good person and I really I share the same hunger and ambition that drove her to write that as in the first place and so how can I begrudge her making a choice that that I myself would have made in her same position if I had access to a story she stood so she told me she started writing it in February which means that she waited for the dust to settle around the scamming stories saw that I had made progress and changing The public's opinion of me, but I didn't pull off a 160 or a 180 reversal and she served just like went in for the kill and started writing her essay and I would have done the same thing. I mean the cut paid her five thousand dollars that That's crazy money. Why was Adderall your drug of choice? I mean I shall be annoying personality. Like I mean, it was so easy to hide people were like, yeah, she seems a little off but it could just be her. Do you like the feeling of it? I loved it. I mean, I think my least favorite part of being alive is when I'm really in my depression and my favorite part of being alive is when I'm really in my intelligence. Agents and my creativity. Yep, and you know what? I have some idea that I think is really smart and really resourceful and really artistic. I just sort of like fall into a wormhole of just getting obsessed with that idea and just pursuing it and that I can do that soberly like I did not get into Cambridge without razor razor sharp Focus, but how long were you addicted out for increasingly over four years? It was really bad for it was Really bad for to and like pretty bad and it was affecting my relationships and stuff. Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, it's just like how many were you taking a day? Oh my God so much so much that my normal day was usually had two periods of darkness in it also known as night sky is just awake for 3 days. My you know how addicts are like, I won't drink before 5:00 or like I'll only have six drinks if your drug of choice drug of choice drug of addiction, I should say. Because addiction is not a choice. I want to be careful with my second language for an alcoholic you set rules and then you know a real sign of addiction is that you start breaking them and one of my rules for myself was on the fourth night. I have to sleep but my normal day is were like two days and would you do during the night? I'd honestly we like working or creating. No. No, you're not and you're like no no, no, no. No, I just definitely counting the hairs on my head. the thing is like when you haven't been on Adderall and you take one Adderall like in a blue moon, you can get shit done. Yeah, but if you've been on our all for 18 months and you're not sleeping and you're so tired, like I would just do stuff like I would take baths at like 3 a.m. Because like I would lose circulation in my limbs and was really cold in England and I would do stuff like I would just read I just read so many books not for school. I would read like YouTuber Memoirs because I was like, I need to study the internet and the intersection of the internet and the written word and I would just Go down wormholes like that with just too much rapidity and speak. What made you stop? Um, honestly, you'll have to read my mom where to find out. I love that. Look. I love them teasing. Yes a little dance people. Also, I think have some animosity towards you because you are very outwardly you own where you struggle and you also own where you feel confident about yourself. Yeah, they hate both of those things. They yeah, they not attack women. But uh, yeah, are you what are you insecure about physically? Oh good question. Honestly the most honest answer I could say it's my stomach. I don't really like Yeah, I've always felt like sort of a fat thin girl, which is really just the most honest thing I could say. I it's like so many people feel like that. It's tough because I just I just don't want to not acknowledge the thin privilege and the pretty privileged that very much exists for me and I just you know white thin pretty girls. We are not the vanguard's of the body positivity movement like we are not the leaders on the Our front. I just want to it's hard for I'm still learning how to express with the right language the validity of my own insecurities, which haunt me and the Very relative. Ease with which my body is accepted by Society compared to someone who has sort of a more of a body that is less widely accepted and it's I'm still learning how to like hold space for those two ideas side-by-side. It's funny because if we run caught up on my Caroline content, you recently posted a photo of your stomach and you're like bikini and Legs? Yeah, I think we should say that I'm I'm not self-conscious of my stomach now, but historically that it had that's been the thing that really bothered growing up. What are you insecure about about your body my gosh my body I get insecure about I thought about lying to you and being like something like my knees, which I'm like sort of or at least with yeah, I am but like what's the real thing? My thing is I as tense work. I have muscular arms and I like whenever I wear a like spaghetti. Rap I'm very self-conscious that because someone when I was 12 years old called me man arms and I like never forget it. Oh my god, when I was looking at your Instagram eyes looking at how pretty your eyes I don't you like holding like a basketball. Yeah. It's like, oh my God, I literally been like I can't wear that shirt because my arms look huge. Yeah. It's it's all our perspective, but I brought up that photo because that photo has caused some controversy. What? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I want to give you my condolences. Thanks your dad passed away, which he Mitad suicide. He committed suicide and you posted a photo and then you were just talking about your grief underneath it. I made the artistic choice to think the first three sentences are something like one month ago. My dad committed suicide five days ago. I found out I am grieving and know I am sexy and sexual and grief-stricken and I listed a bunch of other. It has everything from you know, zany and manipulative and ambitious and resilient and just I really it's important for me with what I create that it sort of carves out space for women to really inhabit a human identity. That isn't just like the nurturing identities that we want women to have. I am really Passionate about how we really I've become increasingly aware of how we are. So it's so easy for us to imagine, you know, fully human three-dimensional man, you know, he's an absolute monster in the boardroom gets deals done makes that money comes home. Loving father. Loving friend good heart good husband good brother good soul. Ole and you know if something tragic happened he's a man, of course, he still gets to have a sex drive. He's like, of course like, you know sexuality is is part of being a human for him and like he wants to fuck that's doesn't make his grief less real or or his capability as a father less real and it is so hard for us to wrap our minds around the same concept for women like the idea that I am grieving and want to fuck. It's like it's Blasphemous. And I mean you're aware of that and then you throw it out there and you're like people deal with it. Well, I'm not like people deal with it. But I really think of my writing I think of my whole Instagram as art which I don't think a lot of people and I made the artistic choice to put shocking sentences next to each other shock is actually the word. I was thinking like there's a shock value to that you want a reaction from people and isn't that art. I just giving people a react I don't want to reaction I think I think I think it's really wrong that people are like you put this on Instagram. So you're asking for people to be mean to you. It's like fuck that like oh my God, if I had a gallery show would I be asking for people to come up to me at my gallery show to be like, this is shit this like I see why your dad killed himself these paintings are terrible, but the fact that like people can comment like you are dead to your dad long before he died or like, you know, I see why your dad committed suicide on a That that's totally fucked up. It's totally out of line. I'm not asking for feedback. I'm not accepting unsolicited criticism. But when you post it, you know, you're going to get a reaction. Is that do you care at all about it? I tore your art. Now. I'm going to get a reaction. I really hate that attitude. Like I think people can be shocked quietly behind their screens and I don't think in the same way that you can go to an art gallery and you can be shocked by the work. Yeah, and maybe it's not for you unfollow. Me but even like positive reactions of people being like, yes, like I love that you're doing that. I mean my criteria honestly, I've blocked people who put too much on me just positively just in terms of like I really just sort of my cutoff is is this helping me make more stuff or is it slowing me down and if something is sucking up my energy that I could be using to make shit, they just they're gone. And so if you live for the compliment, you'll die by going viral as a scam. So you I leave the positive comments up and I think people really want to put a narrative of conniving. Narcissistic woman on to me, you know, like I only want to be I want to live in an echo chamber of Praise when in reality. It's like I know if I internalized the good validation that it's just as disorienting as you know taking to Heart the criticism. I leave those positive comments up because they don't slow me down and I don't take them to heart and I delete the comments that are like, you know, I see why your dad killed yourself or I address them. Those were really really chilling. So I actually address those head. Don but when it's smaller stuff just like there's someone dupin actually a common I deleted this morning was these paintings are terrible and you're a dumb cunt just like for Just Hits. Yeah. Yeah, and I even though you went you went to school in England. It's also the amount of times that people have called me a dumb cunt is a lot. I had a nipple Every time a stranger on the internet called me a dumb cunt and you know, like how many men who went to Cambridge have ever been called a dumb cunt. One thing that we do align on is creativity and creating things is what helps that's where I'm my happiness. That's when I'm living in the moment. I'm not anxious about the future thinking about the past. I'm just expressing and I think as an artist that's just so important consider yourself an artist I do. Do I consider you one to thank you. You was actual nicest things. Anyone said to me in a while. Yeah, and I think yeah creating is just what I love to do and even just sitting here right now. We're creating something that the world didn't have before and I'm so I'm so happy you came and you've been so honest with me. I want to end with a final game. Okay. What are you ready? So ready? It's called it's not really a game of just asking questions. But I like to call the game because games are more fun. It's called the seven deadly sins. Okay eight off. These beforehand gave me the notes. Seven deadly sins. What? Are you grow? By the way, you're going to get dragged into the viral storm. That surrounds me. It's gonna be like Caroline Calloway and Hitler who's still alive on podcast together? On burning in hell. Yeah, what are you you're welcome for the presses what I'm saying? Um, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. What are you greedy about? Obviously creativity workshops. Did you not hear the apology? How many did you end up doing total 7 I mean we continue the tour we like we went to Texas as plan, but you refund it anyone who I refunded the first two events. Yeah, and you know I wouldn't have done that. Now I would have what I would have done if it happened again tomorrow. I would just honestly be like if you really feel like it wasn't worth it to you. I'll give you a refund and I just asked them to make the choice because I know that they really enjoyed it. Who are you envious of that's a really good question. Thank you. Um You know I try to make it no one but maybe Elizabeth Gilbert. Yeah. Well I um because her engagement is so fucking good Sheila rights, as long as I do but she gets like twenty forty thousand like supposed and I'm getting like fucking 3, so I would love to have that sort of engaged feel like a lot of people ghost follow you. Oh, yeah, exactly. Like everyone's just like kind of watching. From afar yeah, my story views are like off the charts but and you know as crazy as sometimes more people will send a post of mine to people then people will like it people. That's Grazie. Yeah, it's like that's crazy. But um, but yeah like 4,000 shares on a post with 3,000 likes that's unheard of I'm jealous of how financially stable she is because right now I feel like I have to dilute. loot so much of what I want to make with being a good businesswoman, and I'm so jealous of how people really see her as a valid teacher and I feel like they're definitely more things that Elizabeth Gilbert knows that I know but I know some things and I just wish that I could be recognized and you know, I don't even need to be recognized it would just be so nice not to be Laughed at as a joke every time I tried to assert my own qualifications or intelligence or accomplishments like having to defend yourself a lot. I no longer defend myself. It would just be so nice not to be like ridiculed at every turn. How's that affecting her mental health right now right now, honestly, my mental health is never been better. I go to therapy three times a week. I'm on antidepressants. I mean, I'm fucking Calling it but it was really really hard in the spring and it was so so hard it was so hard. Like I just like I can't even tell you how for those first two months like January February March. My nervous system was like scrambled like like I would send a text and never in my life have I my has my brain gone to a place where I'm like this person isn't answering me because they don't like me but just every single stimuli in the world. Old was your amygdala was like out of was yeah. It was just like everyone use that word. I love that. I don't even know if it's like this the stress whatever hippocampus is memory. Yeah, exactly. But but you can get that mitochondria is the PowerHouse of the cell, but but it's like those Loop thoughts were like you can convince yourself anything like I convinced myself for awhile that like I wasn't being myself. For some reason because I had like a bad breakup and every time I sent a text I was like would I have sent that time? I got a dark place and that sounds together has really been like when you're in those Dark Places Isn't it nice right now to be like hey, I feel kind of loved or like hey, I kind of feel like myself. Yeah, I feel so I just telling is about this. She was like, how is Ali and I was like, I have never felt so fucking powerful and so like myself and I just feel but that the weird thing of it is I would never wish going viral as a scam. Yeah on anyone even the reporter who started that Twitter thread in the first place or any of the journalists who perpetuated all of that misinformation. It did force me to double down on my mental health because I was like you had to face some Darkness yet. I have really really really really had to like, I was forced to explore how much I thought maybe that I was a bad person and How much I really cared what other people thought of me and I really if people still liked me in almost unconditional way that they did before I went viral the first time this year like I might never have had to examine those things in order to survive, but it really became a question of survival at this point. How much do you care if people like you I mean it It's strange because the truth is it's this really crazy like circular Loop that I figured out about my brain is like I feel most confident and most Unstoppable when I'm like a lot I care. I'm gonna scream. I can't Allah who people fucking think about me. I really hope they like me I would like to be liked and like just admitting that about myself really gives me the Stoppable force of nature hurricane strength that I need to be like, yeah, I would love to be liked fuck you. If you don't I have some stuff to do I was talking to a friend about patterns and it's almost like one of your patterns might be I want to be liked by everyone. So the universe is like let's make everyone on the internet mad at her for her to face her biggest fear and maybe break that cycle totally and I still want to be liked but I just I feel so at peace admitting that you know, what there's no point denying. It like I'm a person who wants to be liked. There is something refreshing about some of your captions when you're just like someone think you're like, yeah, I want money and power. Yeah, I was like, yeah, bitch. Yeah. I was like, yes, but I do and it's so crazy how just that phrase feels so triggering to some people it's so triggering to some people and it feels so far--and on my tongue like the first time I admitted it. I knew it was true as soon as I said it but I was like, oh my God, does this make me a bad person like no one should know. And it's just so crazy how we've been socialized as a girls to really make our ambition palatable. Like, you know, we want to be working women. We don't want to be gold diggers. We don't want to be dependent like but we also are taught not to want too much don't want money Fame Power Glory that you're not going to run the world. But yeah, I'm going to do exactly it's like a first time a girl was like, maybe I want to be president. People were like, huh? No, yeah girl needs to be president. What are you gluttonous about? Food is the first thing that came to mind. I just like love the pleasure of eating. It's such a like. Yeah, it's delicious. Oh my God, the sensation someone should write that down food is delicious. Oh my god. Did this girl called Cambridge? She's she's right. She's so smart. She'll be able to survive any Workshop about that intelligent. She does have some shit with I'm like go to when you're high at night and just want time. There's a really good place that Fish tacos near me, but honestly, I'm like I've been living there for eight years and I've realized the other day. I'm like I might be I might have had you know, my my 10,000 fish taco and I might be fish taco doubt. So I don't know I'm sort of in a liminal place where I'm like I'm open to a new go to but right now it's it's the final days of Rome of the the Grandeur of my flesh tone palette evolve. Naturally, let it happens. When was the last time you It's extreme wrath. Like do you have an angry side to you? Yeah, I mean I I try to let myself experience anger more frequently because that's also not a feminine. It's not a feminine characteristic yesterday in La I was doing another podcast and the host was so lovely Matt Delia my saying this right through ya Leah, Leah D'Elia. Yeah, he was so chill so cool. And he was like, yeah, I don't get why people don't like he was like Very La Stoner Vibe. I was like, oh my God, you're like Central Casting send me like a very chic La Stoner because like yeah, I just like I really value the content that smile low voice the content that creators make like I don't get why people don't like influencers like everyone follows them. I was like, okay. Well, it's great that you feel this way. Like I'm very happy that you're of this opinion, but no one else feels this way and I just Stare it was like I wouldn't say it was it was definitely not a map, but it was anger at just the way the culture is wrapped up with the frustration of being like, okay, but like it was frustrating for me to not only be like, okay no one agrees with you. First of all and second of all it is so fucked up that no one agrees with you and that just made me angry. It's just a perfect storm. Okay, next one. When was the last time you were a sloth? Because you've been just meeting after meeting red-eye therapy my podcast probably more shit. What was that? Some chilled honestly April. Like truly like I really I really have been fucking grinding. I put out like 16 post a day. Sometimes like you meant minimum like sex, how do you find plus stories? I mean, it's not especially without Adderall. I imagine when you wanna roll. No actually actually the great myth of adderall addiction and feeling is sort of got into this point. Yeah, if you take it once in a blue moon hyper productive hyper productive do not be fooled that Now what your life will be like when it's month 18 of Adderall your you're counting your hairs. And you know, you're like you're like dig it you let me hear your face picking like your it's not good. You're like you're scaring yourself emotionally, but also physically with your fingernails. Yeah, they're like a tweezer like it's just not glamorous you to unwind like after today when like you've you're probably exhausted you like baths. Do you like just painting? What do you like to do? Nails done and I also got a massage while I got my nails done. But that means that I really have to go home and sell some art because it was a little over budget for me. But no, I'm just I'm not the last time I really rested was April when I was just really in so like I started therapy and like March after just being like this is too heavy for me to Bear alone. And then after it took like Mart, I would take like a month to like get to know my therapist and for it to like At helping and April and May is when I really is sort of like I I put one foot in front of the other in January and February, but I just like really confronted the feelings of sadness that I felt about being disliked about being someone who cared about being liked about being someone who felt like I might be a little bit bad about thinking my ambition was bad and I just like I honestly was so depressed. I was just like crying in bed and just couldn't get out of bed. bed, and then the ssris that I'm on honestly, I it's not even that they started kicking in because they take six weeks to like build up in your brain, but I've learned from my therapist that I have what he calls a magical relationship with pills, which is very true because like I wasn't an alcoholic or like snorting lines of cocaine, like there's something that I really love about taking pills and that really worked my disadvantage when I was addicted to Adderall but really worked to my advantage when I started these ssris because like the first day the first time you've ever done it's the first time I ever did that because after I quit adderal I was like promised yourself never again no more pills and then after a month of working with my therapist, he was like you should really consider these like they diagnose you with depression or like generals ayat e are you'd like re-diagnosed me like we sort of started from scratch but like other therapist told me that that I just didn't like as much they were except for the fact that they were way more affordable. But um, yeah, I was just really sad and cried a lot and then I started feeling the placebo effect of day one taking the pills got back on Instagram grid posting and you know, I'd just come off of taking two years off. And so I know for a lot of people there like you work so hard but it's like yeah, but I took two years off so I'm sort of making up a you also I were working during that time on Mind kind of right and I don't know if you could have handled this situation. Maybe if you hadn't given yourself a break. I cannot tell you how many times I've thought to myself my God. Can you imagine if I went viral as a scam during the height of my adderall addiction? I went viral as a scam even six months earlier when I was like in recovery, but just not as strong like thank God. I went viral as a scam when I did also when you're healthy mentally like work doesn't feel as heavy and like running around and doing what you love is fun. But when you're depressed Everything feels like it takes so much out of you after this. We're going to go take an Instagram photo on the streets of Soho with my beautiful yellow outfit going to go back make some art going to work on this article that I'm posting going. Post about this podcast and your eyes are lighting up like your I'm so excited to make that art sell. It may be my personal assistant will come over and I'll work literally until I fall asleep, which I'm very tired so that could be it like because cyclical be soon. They'll be done with things like before you finish these questions. I have two more. When was the last time you let your pride get in the way of something. I think the last time was actually on I can't remember but it was during my trip to La there's this influencer who I was really excited to meet we've been like online friends for like six months and I love her. She does really like our content is a mix of totally quirky bananas, smart hilarious heartfelt stuff. And then she does a lot of just like standard influencer. Pay the bills sort of odds, you know, just like short captions, but she's also she's more famous than I am. She's much more of a safer bet for Brands obviously than I am. She makes a lot more money than I do and it was this weird moment. When we finally met she was like two hours late to this party that was happening in LA and I was pretty wasted by the time she got there because I was I because I was really nervous to meet these it was this little to party with some other internet people and we all got together and sort of like kept it off the Record and had this secret little rendezvous rendezvous an LA which is exactly what I thought internet famous people did and I like go to someone's house and just be like no one post like like know until like this would be so off-brand of like anyone knew I was hitting this Vape right now. Like I was like, oh my God, this has been missing for just snorting coke City. I was like, this is exactly what I thought. Would be like so the only reason I actually posted about this and the reason I'm talking about it now is because there's no way for people to find out because yeah, I kept it very secret. Yeah my ego got in the way because I was drunk and I said to her I meant to say something like I feel insecure about not making more money. I live very like month to month on rent. I feel like you are so creative and you have so many awesome things inside of you and what I said instead was why do you do so many ads and it was just it was just the wrong thing to say in so many ways because I could tell that she was defensive and insecure about doing so many ads and I tried to sort of drunkenly backtrack by saying, you know, like I meant because like I just think you're a real artist and and I didn't admit that I had said that because I was worried that she would look down on me with everything that has happened to me. You know, she has a really squeaky clean press image. And in that moment. I was feeling really insecure that like, you know, maybe her cool also famous La friends would really judge her for hanging out with someone so controversial and I think I just wanted to position myself as a real artist and maybe seemed better in her eyes, and it ended up just really getting in the way of us being friends and I ended up having to To apologize to her via text which was just really you knew she got mumbling said about it. You know, I didn't I tried to handle it the best I could at the time and then I asked her to hang out again because I was like I should apologize about this and she was like, I have a work event and then I asked her to hang out the next day and she was like, I have a work event and I was like, oh God, I really have to apologize for this. So I can't even say that I was brave enough to just flat-out apologize via text my I was brave enough to ask her to hang out so that I could apologize. In person and that your intuition new Force. Yeah, and then I just had to be like hey and when I told myself was, you know, I think it's really humbling to accept the fact that like for so long. I carried this concept of like the best version of myself that if I just self improved hard enough, I would attain a version of me that no longer fucked up and that would be I would be so happy. Happy it would be so great. But I realize now and it's so frustrating and humbling to accept this truth into my heart. Is that like the best version of me still fucks up occasionally like when I'm being my best self, I will still get too drunk at parties and say the wrong thing and let my insecurities get in the driver's seat. And the best version of me does that and then just owns up to it and apologizes. I just really owned up to being like I meant to say this. I said was this I hope you can forgive me. Like I really value what you create everyone needs to pay the bills. It's very humbling to admit the best version of myself still fucks up and like I really fucked up and I'm sorry and I just had to sort of remember like if she's worth being friends with like someone she'll accept my apology and she did and I think we're going to hang out in New York when she comes here and what a great answer to that question because a lot of people get stumped on that one and you kind of just nailed it. I also think that the best version of yourself is the one that when you do mess up your nice to yourself. Oh, I love adding that into the mix. Yeah. I haven't been really nice to myself in like you dumb drunk bitch. I like you stupid cunt with a Cambridge degree. Like why why Cambridge was a gay? You're so dumb. Yeah. So final question Cambridge more like cut Bridge right there for me. When was the last time you left? Over someone. Oh my God, Mike earlier this morning. Did you go see a boy toy? Yeah. Okay. So I saw this model in La who is just great Houston. I'm on Instagram. You know, what's so crazy. Is that actually I fucking met him on a hinge wait, this is so funny. So my hinge right buyer in La no, no, so I met him on hinge back in July. And he's just my hinge profile fucking slays it is like I should so important. It's so good. I have like just the perfect photos and my responses are like all Scientology to except under so funny. It's honestly, I'll show you my head in profile after this and it's just like it's just like me pretending to be a Scientologist like recruiting people and I literally I've never hacked a dating app. Algorithm the way I've hacked hinge like all I need viral and hinge. No all I get shown our models like literally every single person who's shown to me. It's like a modeling pick and I'm like, fuck me up with those abs like, oh my God, that's fucking go. I would say of two types one is like male model. I'm currently going through a chapter in my life that I would describe as Pop Bottles fuck models. But yeah the male model in La I did not like that joke as much as you did hate being objectified when I love objectifying male models. I'm like, why is your shirt still on when you're talking to me and they're like, we're in a public place. I'm like, that's it. You're literally that's literally me. I would text him photos of my art. I'm doing these Henri Matisse nudes and he'd be like wow great and I'd be like, okay, so send me nudes. I just told you. Moderate now you get so mad. Yeah sent units. Yeah. I mean, I'm like, I'm the funny one. You're the hot one. Take your shirt off. Yeah, you're boring me. What are you talking it's adorable and sometimes I was so cruel about it. I was a lot of people were making fan art of me is in Allah and I was showing it to him and he was like, yeah people paint me all the time and I was like, well they paint you because you're beautiful and they paint me because I'm a creative genius is my mind. Yeah exactly. I'm assuming like did you just put a sentence together? That's adorable not tu Your shirt off. Well, I have that title and then like Gym Rats. They're like, do you even lift bro? I like I like a boy who you could reasonably say like Brody even read like I like a really skinny intellectual boy either like modely abs are like someone who's just like wasting away in a library. Like they're just so thin and intellectual that you're just like like I hate boys who are too meaty like I love a model body. Mmm or like, you know, Lightweight crew and swimmers also said crucify their smart the cool guys not heavyweight crit lightweight. It's funny because of my own insecurities of being manly I need like six foreign up. Like I need to feel like a little dainty dandelion, but that's my own insecurities on them. It's I think it's my insecurity of having applied my Cambridge degree in art history towards using Instagram as an artistic medium that no one takes seriously or it's my insecurities of having succeeded on Instagram with a Ali like normal body like I'm not I'm not famous because I'm hot I I think I'm hot but I'm not dating male models is definitely ego really, it's Egan. You talk to a therapist about it, but I still love it. People are like would you marry him and I'm like do I like his attention right now? Yes. Yeah. Shut the fuck up. Yeah, so that was the last time you know, there's this other boy who's really smart who I'm sort of lasting over guys just like, you know as on my mind, I think I'm going to see him at the End of October and go visit the super smart ivy league town where he is. But um, but last time I don't I guess like really felt last was with this male model because he was just he was so hot. Oh my God, I will literally showed you dated him. No because he he was really he's one of the first people he is the only person I've ever met who's Instagram famous who genuinely doesn't care lip everyone else. I've met even if If they've said with their mouth, I don't care. I know just from knowing them and I'm like and even when he first told me that I was like well, I don't fucking believe you but I really got to know him and like God to see him as a person and it shocked me to find out that he really didn't care about Fame but and that was lovely about him and he was really he was so lovely about my grief and I feel like he really understood me. But what was really tough about being with him was he wanted all The perks of my fame like he wanted me to help him with this company that he's building and post about it. And he wanted to interview me and interview my friends, but he hated that anyone like Reddit trolls figured out but like I was seeing him and would message him and he wanted me to he wanted to just be erased from the record and I'm fine. I'm fine being like I'm not going to tell you this person's name. I'm not going to describe them not going to tag them. I'm not going to put them in photos. I'll I'll hide their face but It's I draw the line at being like I'm going to lie. Yeah, because like I did that once four years ago and guess what? I I know I hated it and to lie and like pretend like that's not happening when it is it was just really there's a lack of authenticity to it. Yeah, and it just I do want to date him because he's so hot and he's so kind but I don't want to date him because I really want to embody the idea that like, this is the hole Package. Thank you. Can't pick and choose what you like about me. You can't and sometimes really hot guys get away with what they want as in like. I just want this a viewer that of you guys are like and it's empowering of you to be like, yeah. It's all in me or nothing. Yeah. He told me he had never been rejected in his whole life and I really believe him. He wasn't one to lie. I was like, can you imagine living your whole life and everyone you ever have a crush on always wanting can't be sane if like all is Actions are positive in life. I don't know he seemed pretty sane. I mean, I think he laughed he had some blind spots around around cherry-picking from the worst part was he was like no because he didn't like me for my fame and that was really true. So when he'd be like no, I don't care that you're famous. He would say it and mean it but his blind spot was seeing the ways in which he wanted to like benefit from my connections from my ability to help his business from Honestly being around the humor and wit and Sparkle that made me this famous in the first place. Like I'm very fun to hang out with and it's like he wanted all of those things are models love a girl with personality like a good hang because it's not their industry isn't known for the best personalities and when exactly on exactly so to wrap it up because he keeps saying last question, but this is my actual last question that I asked on every single episode. What advice would you give people to cope with their hell, I would say don't get out of it. I mean, I think that's the framework of this question is flawed because coping implies if not fixing then sort of, you know, stumbling through or surviving it. But the point is really I think a better question would be like, what advice would you give people to help them except their hell because the idea is not that you want to survive how or fix it or Or change these flaws of yours that I don't know whether those flaws are characterological or they're just behavioral patterns that you keep finding yourself in or they're crazy shit that the world throws at you like your dad committing suicide are going viral as a scam or having your exbest friend write an essay throwing you under the bus. There are lots of different ways to find yourself in pain, but when you do I think you just really have to not being honest about your Insecurities or your desires or your struggles doesn't make them any less true. It just keeps you from being fully seen by others and by yourself Caroline Calloway, you've been through hell and back you survive this hell. I'm so grateful for you coming being so open so eloquent. So honest where can people follow you and I'll see you have some art that you're selling. Give me like the rundown. Okay. Well some oh my gosh. You're so nice before this. Podcast she's like is there anything you want to promote and I was like no. I just want to have fun and my manager who's in the room was like at your art that you're selling. You should buy my art. But really you should just follow me because my art is good. You may not like the paintings. Are you may not like some of the posts but in general I have a good ability to make shit that people want and I put out a lot of really good content. So you should follow me on Instagram at Caroline Calloway, and if you don't like it, then you should unfollow me because I also want you to just, you know, live your best life, and I don't want you to have a toxic relationship with my account the woman the myth the legend. Thank you for coming to hell. I'll talk to you guys later. Bye.
Hannah goes through all the accusations that Caroline Calloway is facing online and Caroline tells her what is true or false. She explains why she didn’t write her book, why she didn’t pay the advance back, her adderall addiction, what hell happened with her creativity workshops, why she took 2 years off instagram, why she doesn’t do sponsored posts, how the media would have reacted differently if she was a guy, a tutorial of what to do if you get scammed, her favorite hate comments, why she has a vendetta against Seth Rogan, why she admitted to being greedy, how much truth was in Natalie’s essay, who she thinks the real Natalie Beach is, why adderall was her drug of choice, her biggest physical insecurity, wanting fame, her magical relationship with pills, secret influencer parties in LA, the model who she was dating, her dad’s suicide and ultimately how she plays the internet like a violin. ---   This episode is sponsored by  · Oops Podcast: The Oops podcast examines the mistakes that change the trajectory of people’s lives: the bad decisions, the aftermath, the path to redemption and all things in between. https://open.spotify.com/show/70QREbmvK41DTlzttvWt3f?si=LcDth1spSK-o5Nhbe96QVQ  · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. 