Wow, here we are this almost didn't happen tonight. Really? Well, we were on the fence. But here we are. Oh, yeah, that's true. We chose this over on my face where I don't know what that says about us. Welcome to episode 12. Yeah of the everyone belongs podcast. I'm Ben. I'm Cami and we are your host this evening.And our goal with this podcast is to go beyond tribes and systems to explore. The question of if there's a love that's big enough for everyone and the way we've chosen to go about this series or this project is by starting with our own story. Our story is why we started this podcast so we felt like it would be somewhat disingenuous and confusing if we didn't tell you guys that yes, we do. Have a dog in this fight. We have a motivation. We have a story and we started off by sharing it. Now. I hate this episode I think is going to be a it's going to be kind of interesting. We had promised last week we've gone through I think what we're on episode 12, so we'd gone through Eight Episodes seven or eight episodes of sharing our story and then we went through three or four episodes of QA and then this week we were going to Pick up where I left off with kind of like what we currently believed and I was like really not excited about that episode. But I'm like, you know, what buck up just like trying to find it. I know it's hard to explain and some of your still processing but we owe it to the viewers and then We had a change of plans because something very wonderful happened this week. I guess you could put it that way and by wonderful spicy. I mean super shitty. Yeah that I can't wait to share with you guys. But before we get into that, there's been a little bit of a discussion on some of the Facebook page type stuff about the language that we use. And without apologizing I'm going to explain why we use the language that we use in a very brief Manner and then warn you that whatever language if you're sensitive language. This is not probably the episode for you. You can tune in next time or maybe in a year or two or five when our language changes, but for now, this is the way we talk at home. This is the way we talk with you. Each other and this is the way we talk on the podcast and we don't mean any personal offense to anyone. Actually. I don't mind if any of you folks, but it's not why we do it. So this is this is your warning now that I I'm planning on getting excited this episode when I get excited my language gets more colorful and yeah, I like to I like to call it colorful you might even get some excitement for me. We'll see how I think I think so, that'd be fun. Okay, let's Dive Right into this. So first of all, exciting announcement, we did it you guys we asked you guys for one favor on this planet and it was to give us more than a hundred reviews. And as of now, we have 109 reviews and I'm proud to announce that all of you are the proud listeners of a five-star podcast. This is where the I know the Applause Gibby Applause would be super nice, but we're pretty low-tech over here. We don't even have Trail sorry Robin someday, maybe but we don't have an intros. We will make up for in swearing today. Now. I want to break down these reviews for you because I think this is really fascinating out of a hundred nine reviews. 95 of those reviews are five-star reviews. Wow, that's really surprising to me That is weird. Isn't it? Like I don't know if it's because if they're writing it so highly because of how impacted they've been by just listening to it in a positive way. I want to give a few just a very short amount of time of some explanation about behind the scenes here making this podcast one as we already point out. We don't have an intro we also have Arrow editing that goes into this this is like and that's not we're not proud of this. It's just kind of like where we're at and the amount of time that we have to do this. I'm not bragging. I'm just stating facts. We have no budget for this podcast. We have invested $1 in it, actually. Well, it's true. How is that an issue? Well, we just got some chairs. Yeah, that's true. I guess that but we're not sitting. Well right now it's kind of confusing because we kind of to podcasts and I actually bought all this stuff for the other podcast. But so it's it is a bit confusing but we bought the mics and stuff. So I guess in that way there's like probably $400 worth of care and we record this in our basement pretty consistently while our kids are doing some sort of like go-kart Gladiator Sports on the thin wood floors right above our heads. So to get 95 5 Star reviews tells me something and that is that people value the story more than they do the production. That's right. Yeah, that's what I feel which is really cool. Mmm. Okay, we have four four star reviews screw all you guys just kidding. It's there. It's been actually if I was to raid our podcast, I don't think I could write it before Stars. Because of the production quality. Yeah, so I four-star reviews you guys might be the only honest guys out there. Yeah mad respect. Okay, then we have for one star reviews. Now I've kind of shared K 0 3 star, but I guess they can. Hey, listen, are you are you hosting this for my hosting us here house? And I'm just keeping you honest so 0 3 star. Okay, but you're okay. You got your got your method. Yes. Got it we have for one star reviews. and we've previously gave an explanation as to why we think that is. Because like I said four-star review I would give our podcast for sir. I totally would understand if someone gave it a 3 star one star my guess is those are people that don't listen but don't want this message to be heard or you would really don't like swearing. Okay, but this week you guys something very fun and fascinating happened. We got our first and only two star review. And to understand why this is special. We're actually going to read this review and spend the entire episode talking about this because I think it's so fascinating because this two-star review came from someone that I would consider a friend from our previous life. And not only did they send a review. They sent me a message announcing to me that they were making the two-star review. So it's like a review plus review announcement. So I think I'm going to start off by reading that. Do you mind or do you want to do it? Sure? All right. Why not? Okay. So this is I'm reading the message first. So this was a personal message sent me. I'm not a big fan of how you were calling out names and websites and maligning people's character. I think there is a healthier way for you to process and heal the story isn't as black and white as you have presented it with Steven David and jeromy as power hungry. Villains. Sorry again. You were so hurt. But Waging War isn't going to bring the freedom. You may be imagining it might I almost gave three stars, but it gets a bit rambley at times C. And this is a guy that I worked with for a while. We'll get into that. But can I just say it is really rambley. Sure. Rambla is fuck I think. Yeah, it's because yeah, it's not very low produce not edited. We're not radio personalities only thing I will say out of this whole message. I agree with and I want to start with the positive and I think he's but he didn't give it three stars, but he almost gave it right that's confusing. He almost gave it three stars. Also, he was going to give it three stars and said but then he says it's rambley. So then instead of three he gave it to ya oh fascinating. So if we could make it less rambley. He'd make it three. He might change his review doubt it. Okay. Now it's time for the actual review. Okay, would you like to read it? Yes, I would love to. You gotta get give the title. Okay, if the username title Burning Down the House John PDX, January 2nd 2016. Been a self-proclaimed extreme personality tells the story of his family's excommunication from a religious community and extended family and telling the story Ben calls out names and web sites of his foes. He focuses on how his family allegedly became victims of spiritual abuse coming from at least three separate cincinnati-based Christian Ministries many people find Ben's rawness refreshing and his extreme nature. Sure exhilarating This reviewer does as well, however, well I'm not part of the story. I know many of the people involved and warned listeners to take Ben and kami's bereavement with a grain of salt their pain is real but the facts are edited to create clear villains and victims while Ben has inspired many with his family endurance challenges running ultramarathons as a family through hiking the Appalachian Trail as a family is Ultimate endurance. It's challenge has begun how long can his family wage war with his relatives former business partners and previous spiritual mentors. Can I just say I resent the fact that he stated your name? I think five times and my name once I mean, I know you're the fucking host but come on technically. We're both co-host here. I know I'm like what the Okay, that's my first my first grievance of this your raging about that earlier because the first thing you said would you read it? And I was like, that's your main beef. That's not my main one. Okay. That's just your first one. Yes. I just have to get that one out of the way. So this this review is so fascinating to me. It's very strategically well-written. Almost like it's written by a guy that wrote professional scripts for more videos that are two three minutes long, which I also did. Okay, so we just have to get into this because I don't even know her start. So what's fascinating about this is there's the right sprinkling of like giving us a nod like acting like you know acting like we deserve some sort of credibility without actually giving us any, you know, he kind of says he's like kissing her ass here where it says many people find Ben's rawness refreshing and his extreme nature Exhilarate and sounds like a porn add this reviewer does well does as well, however, So, okay, so he's kind of saying like, oh, they're great. Then he says at the bottom. Well been not Cami has inspired many with his family endurance challenges. So it's kind of like he's it's almost like you know how Eminem at the end of The Eighth Mile he like tosses out all his All his faults before who is it. What's the guy's name? Dang it? I can't remember it. Anyways, whoever the guy he's battling against on the rap so that the guy has nothing to say. He's like kind of saying like he's kind of like paying homage to our efforts and our cred so that It doesn't come across as just he's blasting us so that it's so white while he can be heard. Yeah. Yeah, but really what's so fascinating here is these are the main accusations and I want to look at it. Okay, so he has a couple of beefs. He has the names and websites thing which we'll talk about. He really doesn't like that cuz he mentions that in the personal message and in the review And then there's this fascinating lingo. He uses he focuses on how his family allegedly became victims of spiritual abuse coming from at least three cincinnati-based Christian Ministry. And then he says I know many of the people involved so now he's kind of playing his card which is the main reason why he's writing this review which I think is to say, don't try That's what we're saying. I know many of the people involved and warned listeners to take Ben and kami's bereavement with a grain of salt. Well, are you going to point out here that while I'm not a part of the story? I want to get to that. Okay, their pain is real, but the facts are edited to create clear villains and victim. So I want to focus on that line for a second and ask the question. Do we have on our hands here a real story Justice Warrior? Is this person you know because they're saying facts are edited. There's a grain of salt. There's many versions of the story. It's not black or white all of which I completely agree with by the way. I think we've even said if he would have actually listened to all of our episodes which I kind of doubt but these kind of like vague warnings are really they're not they're not meant to really challenge people to hear both sides the really meant to discredit our side. And knowing this person for the last three years we have inside information to this and I'm just going to like kind of let the cat out of the bag to our listeners because I think this is really important and I'm stressing out. There's like so much to say and so little time you only have 45 minutes. If you decide to go public with your side of the story. There is a good chance you will face this type of argument and this type of attack and I'm going to just flat-out call it an attack. It's very clearly an attack an attack on our character an attack on our story and attack on of our credibility attack of our validity attack of our facts. Although not specifically so this I want to walk through this specifically because this is so normal and it's very rare for us to receive straightforward feedback. Like this. Most people are talking about this kind of stuff behind our back and we've heard about it. Third person but it's not something we can actually that's publishable. But because this is a public review, I think it's very valuable to go through it. So this John PDX is That's a username on iTunes is saying hey, let's be well-rounded here and here both sides. Well, here's the interesting thing when we were being accused by the other side for a period of three years. And we had a pretty intimate relationship that I can get into but we did High School Camp. We've found in numerous businesses the largest business grew up in the same church with him. Yeah. She never once called us to ask us our side of the story. In fact when he kind of said that he was discontinuing our normal contact. Based upon a side of the story he had heard my last question to him was are you interested in hearing another side of story to which he said? No. So that leads me to believe that this is actually not about giving the story a fair shake. This is about getting a certain side of the story more air time and a certain side of the story which he doesn't believe and I'm fine. If he doesn't believe it, you know, he doesn't have to leave our facts like he hasn't fact-checked him I suppose but you know, I have proof I can verify I think almost any of the facts that people That we stated in our story through email through audio. So my question is about this person was he as these other people were accusing a fuss of all these things over these years was he taking that with a grain of salt or is the only asking people to take our sight of Sir with a grain of salt and that's how you really know, you know is if people are willing to apply the same Justice meter to both sides. I guess if it really is just as they're after otherwise I would argue. It's actually something else they're after. Yeah, and it was only after three years that we started to tell our story. That we start to hear this grain of salt business. Mhm. So one thing that you know has been very difficult to us knowing that there's two sides of story and deciding whether to actually come out and tell it is this belief that we are not saying the other side of the story is not valid. I'm sure there's testimony that could be published and other people could release episodes and talk about horrible things that we've done and I'm not even I'm not going to say it's false, you know, some of it I'm sure we'll be but some of it I'm sure will not be We're not discrediting another side. All we are saying is that we're not willing to let our side go Untold anymore. Now I want to give a little bit more context here. That's just fascinating facts to me one is that in the last four years? We've released more than a thousand videos on YouTube. Okay more than 60 podcasts. How do you know how many are dedicated to telling the story of Oppression and abuse alleged abuse that he's talking about? three there's three episodes dedicated to I'm sorry and a three follow-up episodes two questions that our viewers had that we're answering so six so someone could figure out that percentage. What does that one less than one half of one percent of our videos are dedicated to the story. So my question to this type of accuser would be are you saying that all one thousand and 60 videos of ours are uncalled for and should be taken with a grain of salt. Or just these three and if so, how are these three so different from the other 1060? Or is it just that you don't like the content of these three? Because our videos have some pretty obvious through lines, you know, we've made we've built an audience off of trust. And by consistently sharing what's been on our hearts as honestly as we possibly can so I want to give you a few other facts. About what we have done. Because I think this is important. One is that we waited more than three years after devastating events transpired and after processing with a professional therapist before doing anything besides vaguely alluding to pain. So for three years and most people this is not their normal life. They're not vloggers. We haven't bloggers we Vlog about everything we've talked about our sex life. We've logged about parenting difficulties. We've logged like on the trail with CPS taking our kids away we've logged about hate. Months and be accused of all sorts of things like we went into the tricky areas this area we held back from for three years because I was so cautious about wanting to ruin other people's names I think way too much. So by the way, then after three years when we did go public with a story we created an alternate Channel and instead of publishing a story to our 40,000 subscribers. We publish it to an audience which at the time was 0 and now is up to 2,000. It's five percent of the audience of our other page even now and that now is the biggest it's ever been. In addition to that on the story we have actively discourage people from harassing anyone in the story and I have a very liberal definition of harassment to me harassment is pushing information on anyone that doesn't even want it. And we were very very careful about what names we used in y and I wanted to get into this also because this is something that was really scary to me. These are family members. These are people that we were in relationship with that we care deeply about and that we believed cared deeply about us and in some ways. I don't want to Discount that I think that could also be true. But at a certain point especially after certain people aren't in touch with us for one year two years three years and our story is our story. Most of you guys have heard it. We have faced what I would consider spiritual abuse and he says alleged I would oh, I would love to hear him answer why he used that word alleged like which facts are you challenging? Yeah, I'm gonna get into that whole just fold a backhand me. Hold me back. Okay, but I will say we were very careful about what names we used in why we balance a fine line between journalistic Integrity. You know, I'm not just going to say some guy said this let's name him Bob because these are real events and Real credibility on the line and there's other people's lives on the line including ours and but there's other people that are still involved with these people and but I didn't want to use any names that weren't necessary for the Integrity of the story. But what's ironic about this is his blanket fucked up pussy accusations. My let us say that yes, thank you. See here that people that got offended a woman of validated that they toss this kind of like hand grenade of discredit. Without ever saying why and it shows the very reason why we had to use names to begin with because if you're going to like try and discredit us and say, oh that never happened. The only thing we have to stand by right now, we lost majority. We lost security. We lost peace of mind. We lost the comfort that we had from Community. The only thing we have our facts and at first that was really scary. I thought it was not enough. And this the fact that I'm having to make this argument now shows that in that world. It's still not enough but outside that world. I'm not trying to convince John PDX here. I'm actually trying to show people that have especially people that have been through this. Maybe a method for finding sanity because you will be discredited and you will you might even discredit yourself because the majority will say you're crazy which is the ultimate definition of gaslighting they call to question your sanity by saying fucking bullshit words like alleged. That 100% covers their ass and 100% throws you under the bus. Oh, no, I'm getting now. I'm feeling it. Yeah. Okay. So what we have not done I just told you what we did what we have not done is released last names with one exception couple flips that was an accident. And guess what? I still don't even give a fuck because it was a good one to pick I agree but because We're not trying to toss out names because our goal is not to throw people under the bus or room people's reputations or get people fired or anything like that. But I'm also not afraid of it. I'm my goal is also not to protect them. So it's not so I wasn't it didn't freak me out if we could use people's last names or we cannot I would prefer to not because I don't think it's really necessary and helpful to the story. I want to use the minimum give the minimum amount of information to he backup are worried powerful enough. Yes. Yes, what we have also not done is released specific websites. We've talked we've used specific names for Content. I'm going to it's so weird that that's what upsets them. Is that were calling out organizations. Like would this be said about Henry Weinstein or I mean other abuse of organizations, I guess. so weird Okay other things we have not done and these are important because we've actually thought about them called for a boycott, you know, we could have asked people and this is a very normal thing to do. By the way, a lot of our viewers said this about the Bible Camp about other things. It's like, how could you send your kids there? Don't go don't support it. Don't like ask all your viewers to basically boycott like start spamming people to let them know this story and we haven't done that. We haven't picketed this one of these organizations. Is actually teaching family conferences in Cincinnati about God's design for family as there in the dark treating our family like basically disowning our family. Yeah, and we also haven't asked our listeners to sabotage or even share our message. Like we're not saying hey spread this to everyone, you know, or hey reach out to churches and those are all like actually very normal things to do. Yeah. Okay, I want to let's read this quote that was actually very inspirational to me and I have a feeling this is going to land with some of you because there's a thing called Stockholm syndrome, which is bad enough and please forgive me if I get this wrong, but my understanding of this is the very cursory understanding of Stockholm syndrome is the desire to protect your oppressors. You start to form this relationship with them subconsciously attachment. Yeah. Yeah, and even though they abused or pressed you you still have this like kind of knee-jerk compulsion to defend them. So even for years after this happened, I felt guilty almost embarrassed to share the story with these names because I felt embarrassed for these people, but this is one of the quotes that convinced me to help share this You own everything that happened to you. Tell your stories if people wanted you to write warmly about them. They should have behaved better and LaMont. I think Anne. Lamott is even like a churchy person or maybe not church. That's the wrong word. Sorry, man. Sorry. Sorry, my bad. I did not mean to say that all but I think she were Christian had at one point at least. so Going back to this kind of question. Is this person really after facts? Because if you read the if you read the common again, I just want to read through this comment because on face value it says allegedly became victims. He says I know many of the people involved and worn listeners to pick Ben and kami's bereavement with a grain of salt. So even there he kind of discounts our testimony. By making it sound as if this it's this emotional venting then he says the pain is real but the facts are edited to create clear villains and victims. So I want to ask this question based upon what we know is this reviewer on or really anyone in this mindset really that interested in facts. Or and this is kind of my premise. Are they more just interested in silencing our set of facts and I've said this just to be clear and I'll say it again any facts that come out about this story that have proof and are specific there. They can't be these blanket feelings. They have to be like I'm talking words names places dates. We will do anything in our power to promote that that are relevant to Story whether they make us look good or not or bad don't care that's less important to me. Geesh someone's taking a shower above our head now. Hopefully that's not true star review that I think that could be a legitimate three starters. We don't have it to Serbia. Now, here's kind of you know, this is what's fascinating and I've already said this but just to reiterate none of these none of it. There's no facts in this entire. Review, there's only these General warnings. Now. There's an Instagram account that I want to call you guys attention to it's called Church clarity. And I discovered this Instagram account this last summer and let me tell you this Instagram account does. roughly they do they create a spreadsheet and they do they track I think just two things. It's like egalitarian views meaning are women allowed to be in leadership and is the Church of firming in other words, are they accepting of homosexuals in leadership now, I don't even care what you believe about those things at all. All I'm pointing out. Is that what this website does is they have three ratings? Yes, no or unclear and what this website does is they push churches to just be clear and honest and honest hence the name Church Clarity. So the Instagram account is at church clarity. And this is why I've learned this work is so important. Ambiguity favors the powerful so when there is a group and if you look at someone and you're like, you know, and when you're in Christian circles, you know that people not to trust, you know, there's there's a well-known group when X is probably true of any tribe our experiences in churches and someone will like be drinking too much or have sex outside of marriage or have a kid or read a fucking Rob Bell book and The Whispers will start to happen. And we'll be like you'll say these kind of vague things like so and so I remember this one. Oh my gosh. Okay. So this involves cast of characters from people that we've already mentioned, but I'm not going to give a specific name is because one of the guys that was disciplining me named Stephen said about someone else that we were actually had become friends with that the devil, what'd he say the enemy has Speaking of Satan or the devil come to find out this person was in a hospital for mental. I don't know if it's called mental disability or sickness or instability or anxiety attacks or something along those lines. But all we heard was that the enemy got them which basically means don't trust anything they say write them off. So I want to share one story about this and how this has impacted us, which was our story that's actually started this whole podcast. It was this summer. We were planning on going to a Bible camp on Whidbey Island. How in the Seattle area which I have been at literally since being in my mother's womb we both have we met there we've therefore probably multiple calendar years actually when you add up all the time, that's not true months months months months, maybe a calendar year and and we were set to volunteer cook when we were contacted in July and we were told that we were not allowed to cook anymore because we did not believe that at porn and homosexuality was a sin according to the Bible and I said, oh I didn't know that we had to their interpretation of the Bible. Yes. And I said, oh I didn't know that I had to believe that it was a sin to be gay to cook and they were like, well, you know what we mean, and I'm like, no actually I don't because I actually know how this compound Camp operates and and when you're counseling or leading or teaching often times some years they had you sign a statement of faith other years you didn't and there was multiple people that didn't sign up for all sorts of different reasons. So I went to the website and the website Said something like we believe in a Biblical marriage. That's all it said about any sexuality. So they believe in polygamy. Exactly and well, so with this Bible Camp there was all sorts of beefs. I had and all sort of beef I didn't have because honestly, it wasn't that surprising when it happened. We were just kind of like, you know, you learn to spot these things a little bit and even though we had never taught anything about being gay we in fact the only way they had found out was because we had made a YouTube video explaining our stance on our Channel and I think someone complain to them but Is two things that I asked the organization to do not directly but on, you know on our YouTube channel, which is one Define the rules specifically. So if you're going to tell me three weeks before Camp before I drive my family across the country and rent my house out losing thousands of dollars that I'm not allowed the burden is on you to explain to me. Why because I know for a fact that there were other people there that we can Other weeks who believe the same thing that I do well, and they got their Yes Man to call you like the people that actually have the power to kick us out or to pussified to actually like call us up and talk to us. That's sexist. I'm offended. Okay, dignified whatever. Okay. So the first task was Define it specifically this second task is to enforce it. Universally. Like I said, there's people that okay. I don't even like an interest. This is a site engineer when I asked those things. I knew that it wasn't it was kind of a it was kind of a sneaky ask because I know the camp can't do that and the reason why Asked is not to actually get this done, but they would get a lot of pushback. They would get lose a lot of people but it's to point out the flaws in the system. Yeah, and there are flaws and that's okay. I'm okay with flaws and systems, but I think the system that is claiming to have the Bible in Jesus and God on their side should be the first to admit that not defend it and this is why what this church Larry thing is doing is also really a great cause but also impossible the churches, you know, the largest the fastest growing Church in America a few years back in Cincinnati area on the outside. Everyone thinks that it's gay affirming and probably even I don't know at least close to egalitarian. It is 100% not both when you find out when you talk but it takes knowing leadership and hearing from the right people or hitting your head on a ceiling. That you're not told about to learn this the hard way and if you really believe the fucking truth if you believe that's what Jesus Jesus way of saving people is fucking start broadcasting it right. I'm I'm actually down with that but it's just more convenient for them not to that's why they don't do it. So this accusation that we faced, I believe it's equally vague and I don't think it's a coincidence. That that is that way. Okay. Where are we I didn't pay Chambers here. Okay with this discrediting. This is very systematic and I'm going to ask him a to read this quote. It's kind of long but it's from this book and I'm going to put these links in the no not there. Sorry this under discrediting. I'm going to put the links to these resources in the show notes if you care later, but this is a book by Judas Lewis Herman and it's titled try. And Recovery the aftermath of violence from domestic abuse to political Terror. Now, this is not a religious book. This is not written for churches. This is written for trauma in general. That's what makes it. So interesting to me is to see these patterns go Way Beyond church. This isn't an anti church talk. This is an anti-oppression created by unjust systems talk. Okay under them in order to escape accountability for his crimes the perpetrator does everything in his power. Power to promote forgetting secrecy and silence are the perpetrators first line of defense if secrecy fails the perpetrator attacks The credibility of his victim if he cannot silence her absolutely he tries to make sure that no one listens to this end. He Marshals an impressive array of arguments from the most blatant denial to the most sophisticated and elegant rationalization after every atrocity one can expect to hear the same predictable apologies. Never happened the victim lies the victim exaggerated Sledge Italy the victim brought it upon herself and keep us I mean, this is like really didn't need to write that like he could have taken the allegedly out and it would have he still just talking about what we're saying our story well with he's so fucking smooth with this because he never says we exaggerate he just uses these phrases like been a self-proclaimed. So now he's even putting it on. Exaggerated for us like he's putting on me. Now. He's fucking using my words against me been a self-proclaimed extreme personality that's saying watch out for anything is Extreme personally says because it's gonna be extremely even says so himself and then it says, Yeah facts are headed to create. Oh, man, so that's okay. I just my second major beef with this is the I know we're in the middle of reading this show finish overall. No, you don't you do you is that he says that we're Waging War against family and these other people and to me that's like kind of a slap in the face. It's a very very Ignorant statement because okay, he doesn't deserve to hear this but I'll tell these other people like I've spent countless days and nights the last three or four years in grieving over my family. Like I thought you don't want to wage war against them. That's not my goal. That's not your goal. Like we I lost them that's I lost them because they walked away from me. I'm not Waging War against them. So to me, it's just like like so ignorant it's what he wants to believe. He doesn't want to believe that actually your old Mentor. He doesn't care enough to talk to a sister. That's that's the real story here, John. Okay, hang on now. I need a riff off that because I think you're really right and like he's making it. So what's the word like it's nothing to me like as if it's like not a huge deal that that what what's going on? Well, there's two things here. First of all, these people are so self-important and self-aggrandizing. they actually think we're attacking them as if we give a shit like what they're doing, you know anymore like when someone doesn't talk to you for a year, two three or four like we've actually had the wonderful benefit of having a therapist and the time and the space to fucking walk 2,200 miles spend $10,000 on therapy and move the hell on yeah, and they actually view this as a war that wherein I have no grandiose ideas or expectations that I'm going to take my Sirs, Ministry down like no he's going to go on with his life because there's a the next Vine like whatever, you know, yeah, exactly. I was there once too but there's other people that do care and are responding and listen to this message and are hurting and are hurting and don't have another voice to hear because they've been told that their voice doesn't matter either and that's who you're speaking to. Yes. Not you fuckheads. Geesh. Sorry, that's okay back to this. So after every atrocity one can expect to hear the same predictable apologies and never happened. The victim lies. The victim exaggerated the victim brought it upon herself. And in any case it is time to forget the past and move on the more powerful the perpetrator. The greater is his prerogative to name Define reality and the more completely his arguments prevail. So basically it's saying they'll try and silence you first. So the mums the game secrecy is is code one check. We have experienced this like crazy. Most of the things we're heard set against us even now even though we're off the reservation and the words of someone that I heard recently. They won't even talk openly with each other. It's all done in one-to-one conversations. I would love to see the email or the blog or the you know, I don't even take it personally, but just like for the sake of your own religion defend it and start coming out with the facts like someone discredit some of the facts were saying if you really believe it. Yeah, otherwise just know the whole thing even how it was done to us. The letter that excommunicate us said in the letter to not share it with us and I'm saying that having never seen the letter just because that's what we were told was shared with us third person allegedly. And then they're saying they trying to find reality. So this is where you know the few things we have which I feel like for how much we've been through we've said very little in that we're stating. I'm reading emails and documents stating names and dates and trying to give a narrative with with at least in the course of telling the story fairly little commentary as to like, we're not telling you why people did it. We have our speculations and we're trying to make really clear when we're speculating and differentiating that from an accusation. You know, otherwise, I feel like the information we've given is pretty straightforward like reporting conversations in this was said on this date and these were the witnesses that were there and most of these I'm trying to think of any case that we've reported that doesn't have multiple Witnesses. And most of Witnesses are on their side most of the time. Yeah. Okay now so we've talked about what we did but I want to talk about what this review does. Okay, this is what I think John PDX is doing actually in this review posting Incorrect and misleading facts publicly and actively discouraging people from listening to us. And what are these misleading facts you're asking? Well besides that we've already said one of the statements he makes in the public review is quote. Well, I'm not part of the story unquote. So what makes me think you didn't listen to the whole thing. He did because he episode 7 and 8. I in episode 7. I tell a story about him. Then he contacted me episode of after episode 7 and said, hey this conversation did not go the way that you said, so I corrected it at the beginning. episode 8 Okay, so that's one one way he would actually was a part of stories. I said in episode seven that John PDX his advice to me was to submit to David. That was the final thing. He said to me when we stopped talking for a year or two after he said he talked to my old business partner Colin. He said you should submit to David and then after he contacts me after two or three years, he's actually apologizing for that which is so weird and I'll get into that. but there's actually more ways that he's tied in with this that I'll talk in actually a little bit because it actually starts to get a little crazy as I was just like thinking of this episode like how tight in he actually is but this like conspiracy theory that he's like a spy not really spices but like sent out by other people are like hey, can you Figure out what's going on here LT can figure it out every listen to this episode. So I want to share that story because I think this is really fascinating. So he reached out to me when we when we came out of this episode. So there's two or three years of silence and like a lot of people after we weren't so what's fascinating by the quote you just read is secrecy is a main trick and then after that silence is what's the most important and we were for two or three years and guess how many people we heard from in a two or three years. No, no one then we start sharing our story and then all of a sudden the Cockroaches coming and guess who we hear from under the wood. I can't even tell you the number of people at all of a sudden are really obsessed with the details of the narrative conveniently. Yeah, so then John PDX apologizes to me over message. To which I respond. What are you sorry for? And he doesn't really say he's kind of like vaguely apologizing like in some sympathetic bullshit way for the pain that we've gone through which he actually does a lot in both his message to me and this thing is like, oh your bereavement I was like, I'm not to the pain. Yeah, I mourn free like kind of this like and I okay. I don't want to discredit it. Like maybe that's nice not helpful for me. I'd it doesn't make a difference in my life whether someone across the country feel sad for Honestly, but when I specifically asked him, oh, you sound like you're apologizing. What are you sorry for and he said oh do you think I should be sorry for something and I was like, no, I don't care if you're sorry. You're the one who said less, but if you're not sorry like about something we have no interest in maintaining a friendship with you. So what I think is happened was although he kind of like gave this not an apology. He's actually still defending his original line of thought. Which was two things one specifically that we should talk to David, but the milk the more important underlying thing. And this is what I told him why we're not friends with him is because he why were front I'm going to make this more big we're not friends with anyone right now that believes they know better what's best for our life than we do. This was the entire Christian world. And so when he came to me and said and he didn't know at any of our side of the story the time he said, oh, you should just listen what David said and we had been through a lot of abuse already at this time and we were like know our therapist that we're paying a lot of money for it is really fucking qualified is telling us the exact opposite guess who were going to go with the person that doesn't know any part of the story or the person who we've actually come to trust and it's like we've busted our ass with Okay, let's move on. So I want to ask this question because we're gonna make a whole episode about a review we might as well ask. Why do you think this review is written? And I want to talk about a comment that was left. On one of the last episodes by someone in care knee. Would you like to read it? Yeah, I briefly looked up the story form life. I see PDF files download to use as materials to facilitate training sessions the content seems scripture based if their intent is not leading people to Christ. What is their motivation? So we had referenced that the story from life and the founder of it Jeremy at least the co-founder of it who Camis brother who was one of the people that excommunicated us and the leader of this family teams website has this content called the story from life and we taught it for close to 10 years. And now I actually consider the content to be fairly. It's had dangerous aspects to us. I'll put it that way. So this person went to the website says actually it looks pretty harmless. It looks scripture base and it looks like it's leading people to Christ. Mmm, and she's saying that seems fine. To which I said reply back to the comment. Just like she was asking she was assuming that I was saying it's doing something else like it's actually asking people to join a cult or something like that and I'm like no that's exactly what it's doing. It's calling its claiming to lead people to Christ and to follow scripture based upon the way that they see it right now. This is the key that I want to take away from that because I think you can before you ask the question. Is it good to lead people to Christ or read scripture you To to use their term. You have to look at the fruit that's actually being produced from the system itself a system creates what it was designed to create it. The results are not random. So when you have a system that creates a bunch of ostracized people that don't feel loved, but then you say the system creates love Instead of looking at what it says look at what it does and you can't trust usually at all what set you need to look at what's done. So with that in mind? I want to look at this review and not look at what said because what said it comes across as being Really about protecting integrity and truth justice and the American way and looking out for us even with this like, oh my gosh. It's sickening how how twisted and manipulative it is I want to say I think at some point are we said that we weren't sharing websites was we're not sharing websites, but we had we did share names of Some of the stuff so I yeah, and I'm not I'm not against that it's not because it's Anonymous it's more because I'm not asking people to spam or go check them out. I haven't provided the links if you want to go look up all the stuff. I'm sure you could put the pieces together. My goal is not to make this like ambiguous and weird and confusing. My goal is to just share the story. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So here's a few other facts that that I like went back and forth on whether share this if I was like, you know, what fuck it. I got nothing to hide. I think this is interesting stands for saying yeah, so it pithy o is the business that I co-founded with John PDA John PDX and two other people including Jeremy Camis, brother. This was like what 2009 10 years ago 11 years ago now and she was now John was one of the first people to want to leave and sell his shares. I'm assuming this is like six or seven years ago. Now when a PPO shares were sold. I was the only person in the boardroom to defend his shares and the fact that I felt like they were being undervalued. And when his offer was given by the board, which I got outvoted on actually, I don't know that for a fact you can check the board minutes, but I'm I probably actually voted for it at the end of the day, but I was dissenting before the vote, but when he was presented the offer and he accepted it I offered to pay him personally out of pocket. Because for because of the delay in when they were willing to pay him they were going to penalize him for paying him on the spot and I didn't feel like it was fair as we were drawing out cash from the business. So I was the only shareholder that went to him and said I will pay you out of my own pocket to make this right and he declined it but that was the offer. Yeah, then when he left and he went on to start his next project. Act which is a video project dedicated to explain the Bible. And I had to look it up today because I was like I said, I feel like I was ten thousand but that seems like too high. I probably donated $5,000. It was 2000 and I was like maybe there's actually 1000 but they looked at the receipt it was $10,000 is what we donated to support him in his new endeavor. So whoop. Okay, can I get that money back? Lesson learned. Okay, so I'm still time these are I'm still answering this question. Why is this person right writing this review? But I'm getting there in a roundabout way and this podcast is going to be more than an hour, but hopefully you're entertained. Because that's what we do here. Hell if you're in our chain, give us three stars at least until you get an intro. Yeah. Okay, then this is so weird to fucking talk about is just true John PDX has a podcast wouldn't you know it Are we going to tell the name? No, because we don't give a shit but it's a podcast whose explicit goal is to explain the Bible their podcast. Here's a few facts whether podcast. When I typed in Christian podcast or something like that, it ranked number 6 of all podcasts in the world the number six training podcast on religion and spirituality. It was right below Joel Osteen and right above Tim Keller. Okay. So this is the number six podcast in the world on religion and spirituality. It was the top 21 in woman's day magazines on the best Christian podcast to grow your faith. And we talk to her this is fine because we talked about how many reviews we have a hundred nine. They have sixty five hundred six thousand five hundred reviews for a four and a half star average. We're beating them now there is this quote I came across Instagram is one of those like meme quote inspirational thingies, and I really liked it was just this last week and I said pay close attention to people who don't clap when you win. So here's someone who's fucking made it they are at the top of the Christian Bible World. They aim they have their voice. They can share what they think about the Bible and spirituality and Christian Living they built an audience and fucking kudos to you know, I don't want my 10 grand back. I was happy to support it. Yeah. I was really excited about it. And I'm glad that they can share this and I'm glad it's helping people like, you know, like that's wonderful. Have we in fact, I mean here's another thing to say because I don't think I mentioned this. Why do you gotta drag a puny little podcast like us down, huh? Well, seriously, I know, you know, he's accusing us of going to war. I mean we talked about not picketing not doing all this shit. Here's another fascinating fact. I have not downvoted. Actually. There's one YouTube video downloader, but I haven't downvoted any of these people. YouTube videos, I haven't negatively rated any of their channels any of their podcasts and it I mean these people have done what I consider some pretty allegedly horrific things to us at least things that have been really painful to us. I'll just say that yeah that way we don't have to use the fucking word allegedly things that hurt us like hell and I didn't go and lash out or try and dissuade people from going to Their audience because I'm fundamentally opposed to that idea. Well, I don't want to play that game. I Neither. Yeah that to me is going to war giving someone to stars that has a hundred reviews when you have 6,000. Now it's an unfair War because you're a fucking bully but it still wore like threw a grenade in a closed room. It's like I ran away now. Here's what I found. Okay, and this came up in conversation. The last two or three times we've talked over the last couple of years the conversation there was this funny thing that was said where he kept on saying to me. Hey, if you need any help, let me know or if there's ever anything I can do for you, you know, let me know we'd be happy to have like 10 grand, please actually now that you mention it. Um, And you know what? I just told him that sounded degrading and that we don't need anything. And I'm not interested in a relationship or someone treats me like a project and this is where I've come to see when we got kicked out of the Christian world the Christian World sees it one way. They assume that you want to be back in and for a while, we probably did they assume that you're defining Yourself by being on the outside. That's why for us to tell our story. They have to see it as like oh fine. If you're not going to let us in well, we're going to bring you down, you know, they assume that we want what they have. But here's the truth. There's nothing that he has that I want. I don't want his approval. I don't care if he's calls himself my friend. I don't want his advice. I don't want his money. I don't want him to shout me out or do anything. I just don't even care because that power structure that we told you we spent so much of our life investing into the most controversial thing. We ever did was walk away from it. And in order to do that, we had a polyp we had to apologize to the people that we had lorded our power over and we also to a certain degree had to be honest that people had lorded their power over us. And we did that internally for years before we ever went public with it. Even like one thing we did, you know because we read this apology letter we sent out to 16 people, I believe. Yeah, and then I waited an entire year. So it just wasn't confusing for relationships in order before I even read it on the Vlog. This was our own apology. Right? Yeah, and then we read it and we didn't even say who we sent it to and we didn't even say why right because we left all those facts that we just said. Hey guys we I believe the saying now we consider this dangerous and this is what we apologized for and this we probably read that letter what two years ago now. Yeah. Okay. So what I think is going on and this is what this is where it's speculative, but I think if you have been in a situation you might or for that matter if you're still in you might share some of these mindsets is that when people are out you assume someday, they're gonna see the light and come back and grovel and apologize and walk back in and then you have the power to let them back in or not. But if they really don't give a fuck if they don't want back in which I think I would. He was most the case most of the time I used to say this all people all the time. I was someday they'll come back. Guess what they never did they saw the light and they ran there and I actually my my biggest reason why I'm sharing with this has nothing to do with church actually has to do with family. I think I've seen so many people in the Christian world do this with our kids and they're like the parents are like I fucking know what's better for you and the kids are leaving their like will find you leave you little shit. Someday, you'll come back. They don't say Little shit because they're Christian. I said you Little Chute someday, you little brat someday, you'll come back and guess what a lot of times the kids never do. And the parents wonder why they're like, oh it's so weird. They must not have learned their lesson yet. So I think the fact that we don't want what he has is threatening to him. But speaking more vaguely. I think it's threatening to that belief system. Yeah, because this is the proof now that you've seen what we've done and what he's done. And how much clout we have and how much clout he has. I think it's fairly safe to say. That he's not comfortable with us adding our facts to the story their reality the way they see it cannot coexist with our reality. It's either we have to be right or they have to write that's why he has to discredit us for him to feel good about himself and I've never discredited anything that they've said. I mean, I've given my explanations for why I think and what our side of the story is, but like I've never accuse people of being Liars or actively coming after us to me. It makes all the sense in the world that people did what they did because because we did it for so many years. Yeah, but we're okay with both sides existing they're not and we're actually not even trying to recruit people to our side, right? You know, we're not saying hey everyone share this with your friends. Hey, everyone go tell everyone about like what bastards you know these assholes were because I think I fundamentally believe they have a right to exists and believe what they want to believe and so do I I'll take it a step further and I'll say I think people that are still within that system are probably getting helped from it to a certain group share a lot of yeah. Oh, yeah and just because it doesn't work for us right now doesn't mean it's not helpful and doesn't work for other people. So I'm not trying to blow this system up. I'm just trying to show people that there's life outside of the system also, but when we do that people are trying to bring us down. That's what's so wild about this. So. The irony and if you look at who's actually creating the war here whose warring with people I think John PDX, I think his post as much more violent than anything. We've said if you if my data or my you know, I'm in a lot of these are inferences and the final thing I'll say with that is in a way we definitely are at war against a system of thought. And that system of thought is that if you're in the system, you know what's best for other people and that you're better than other people. Yeah, and this is why when John PDX apologize to me numerous times all of his apologies fell flat because it was so Hollow. It was so superficial and he was like trying to be sympathetic. That was the best he could muster up was like, oh you're sad I've been said before we're the same. I'm really sorry that you're sad, but he couldn't oh, Any of the behaviors that actually contributed to our pain? Yeah, and that's why for us. It's so was not enough for us to call people. I mean the other thing that's so tragic about his accusation the biggest line. That's so I think So grossly wrong is the facts are edited to create clear villains and victims. I would love to see one ounce of proof on that because to me that's crazy because I feel like we painstakingly try to explain that. We were part of the problem. We were the villain and then we became the victim like we were both it was never black or white to us to me. It was like, oh, you know, we're getting what we dished out. This makes total sense. Absolutely and even the people that Um villainized us. I don't even think they're actual villains. It's why I'm not calling them to the carpet using any more details that are necessary are asking people to boycott because I actually don't think they're the problem. I think they're fulfilling a role that other people are asking for and demanding and in a way, I want to point out that there are villainous aspects to the system into the rolls. It's just like McDonald's and I've used this analogy before but you know you eat there you The fish fillet your like this is incredible extra sauce extra pickles chicken McNuggets, and then someone's like oh hey, have you seen how these animals are treated? Does it make the fish filet sandwich wrong and everything McDonald's like discussing? No, but it introduces some new information that now you have to be like, oh, huh. You can't have the fish fillet without the animal cruelty or the Burgers without the system. He Farms L on the back backs of of animals that are being hurt or humans that are being hurt if it's this other system. Yes, and you can't have a system of exclusive thought without treating those that don't think the same way as less than in our experience. Yeah. So the irony is I don't I've never felt like a victim. I've never asked people to yeah, if we experience pain and but that wasn't actually what motivated this podcast like what motivate this podcast is that what I felt and he doesn't even say it because and this is fascinating. I wonder if this is intentional he calls out the three separate cincinnati-based Ministries. He doesn't call out the one Washington one which happens to be 2 or 300 miles from him and happens to believe something that I think is actually so far out there that he couldn't even oppose that being in Portland, which is the anti-gay belief. So there's not three John there's for Ministry is the very first one if you look at all of our first videos, they're actually about Out to the Bible Camp. That's why we started this channel the since anything is an afterthought actually, so I'm wondering if you think or if you're willing to stand by all your accusations for your review for what happened at the Bible camp with a gay thing, or do you think that's different because maybe you stand in a different place. No, no, just speculating. But I think we've accepted our responsibility and move the fuck on and this is where it's so weird that he's saying that he's not a part of it. He still defending A system that refuses to acknowledge the pain of us and many others and when we when we talk about it you accuse us of making War. That's pretty damn convenient, especially when in that world war is one of the worst things you could be accused of because it goes against supposedly what Jesus did or thought or some bullshit like that. Well, they actually got that one, right? Wow. Oh mercy. All right. Where are we at here? Am I losing you know just need to wrap wrap this baby up put a little can bow on it. This is okay. I have a call to action. I think it's possible to hear this podcast and be like shit if I tell my story I'm going to have people coming after me. and I would be lying if I said that that's not a strong possibility given our experience, but I will also say I think there's a reason why people are coming after us and I you know, we talked about at the beginning of the episode how many how many people have you guys have been very gracious and taking the time and giving us five star reviews and at the end of the day, I think the reason why people are giving us five star reviews. We're doing one very simple thing. We are being courageous and telling our story. and despite the consequences despite the two star reviews the one to serve you and this is something I think anyone can do I think a lot of people feel helpless they feel like they don't have a podcast. They feel like they there they've been stripped of their confidence. They've been discredited they've been accused and they might they've been gaslighted and they might feel crazy or incompetent. But I believe anyone can start by being more honest. Their own story like Anne. Lamott says it's your property. No one can take it away from you you own it. Yep. So I want to end reading a few kind of like more passages from that one book by dr. Judith Herman called trauma and Recovery that speak to telling your story because my hope is that people listening to this would be encouraged to at least consider sharing their story more. Yeah, the ordinary no, never mind Senator. Tell your story. Sorry in there those who attempt to describe the atrocities that they have witnessed also risk their own credibility to speak publicly about one's knowledge of atrocities is to invite the stigma that attaches to victims. It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks, is that the bystander do nothing the victim on the contrary asked the bystander to share the burden of pain we've read that in a previous episode, but the punch line is if you do nothing. that will make the oppressor win. So if you take the inverse of that the way to face the oppressor or the oppressive system in our case. Is to speak to speak your truth. This is another excerpt from the same book The Ordinary response to trosset he's is to banish them from Consciousness certain violations of the social compact are too terrible to utter allowed. This is the meaning of the word unspeakable atrocities. However, refused to be buried equally as powerful as the desire to deny atrocities is the conviction that denial does not work folk wisdom is filled with ghosts who refused to Rest in their graves and tell their stories are told murder murder will out. Okay, remembering and telling the truth about terrible events are prerequisites both for the restoration of the social order and for the healing of individual victims, sometimes it feels especially to people that are inside and their goal is to defend the system like where I believe John PDX is comment is coming from we'll see certain facts and stories that are inconvenient to them as a tax and is unnecessary and is drudging up gory details that aren't helpful. But for the rest of us we know and we've experienced and we've heard from so many of you overwhelmingly that our story has actually been healing to you and it is told you that you are not crazy. Now if we can do that just by sharing and somewhat sequential order. The hell happened to us in our basement. I think there's people around you more than likely that as you start to be honest about these things that are actually difficult to talk about because with the beginning of the quote says the ordinary sponsor of Trustees is to banish them from Consciousness. We silence ourselves. I mean forget about other people for a second. It's so easy to say to myself forget about that move on don't dwell on that. It's not worth it. Yeah, but there's another consequence to this and the last two readings we have one is this pithy Instagram quote that I found this week, which is a reality that I've experienced by Cheryl Richardson. It says if you avoid conflict to keep the peace You start a war inside yourself. Now for three years, we kept these things to ourselves and it drove us it was driving us crazy because we're sharing our story. I mean like transparency and honesty and authenticity and thoroughness is kind of our gig on YouTube. If you look at the range of stuff we've talked about it's pretty wacko, you know, we get accused of TMI all the time. But this one story we were not willing to talk about and the more we kept it a secret. I think the more it made us feel crazy and we're not willing to do that anymore. So if assholes like John PDX and there's more are going to come at us and accuse us of stuff to silence us or to make themselves feel better. That's fine. But we've seen the other side of it, which is I'd rather be honest and find a new crowd then to be silent and feel crazy. And the last book we're going to read is actually from a psychological parenting book. It's called the drama of the gifted child by Alice Miller and it's this excerpt from page 42 and 43. Sorry. This episode is so long that sorry psychiatrists are denying this type of damage when they talk about Grace and other spiritual qualities in order to acknowledge the Is of such early hidden trauma, they would first have to do some hard work on themselves. Once they become willing to face the facts their own facts. They will lose interest and teaching others about Grace and other mysteries in the name of science clinging uncritically to traditional ideas and beliefs often serves obscure or deny real facts of our life history without free access to these facts the sources of our ability to Love Remain cut off. No wonder then that even well-intended moral appeals to be loving caring generous and so forth are fruitless. We cannot really love we are forbidden to know our truth the truth about our parents and caregivers as well as about ourselves. We can only try to behave as if we were loving but this hypocritical behavior is the opposite of love it is confusing and deceptive and it produces much helpless rage and the deceived person this rage must be Press in the presence of the pretended love especially if one is dependent as a child is on the person who is masquerading in this illusion of love. We can make great progress in becoming more honest respectful and conscious thus less destructive if religious leaders could acknowledge and respect these simple psychological laws instead of ignoring them. They should open their eyes the vast damage produced by hypocrisies. Alright, finally, I want to read a review that we got the next day. From someone named Elizabeth's Country Road. This was January 3rd the title. It's a five star review and the title is life-changing honest thought-provoking and growth-oriented insights. If you have ever participated in a faith community or known someone who has you need to hear what the crawfords have learned insights that could change your life. This podcast is definitely proof that real life is more interesting Than Fiction. If you are oriented that way I suppose you could hear this as an elaborate tale of victims and villains, but that's not the message. They are offering Ben Kami and their children have experienced a ton of pain as a result of being excluded from pretty much their whole lives. Family business and Faith Community, but in the process they have learned a ton now, they're telling their story and creating a space for others with similar stories usually Untold to connect and heal. So I guess there's more than one way to interpret what we're presenting. It's crazy that she says exact opposite. Like I said and even kind of says that some people are going to hear this as the tale of victimized villains. I think that's done on purpose. Okay? Yeah, but I don't think that makes this less true. So guys that was a ride. What to say we've had to let go of a lot of relationships that have been hard but what's been helpful is to be able to look at actions instead of words. And also just look at what is helpful for us and we want right now and there's some people from our previous life that we've decided are no longer helpful for the stage of the journey. We're on and we've had to let them go and be With that it makes it hard and one of the ways we know is by sharing our story and seeing how people respond. All links to today's material is in the description. This podcast is available all over iTunes and Google Play and YouTube. Most of those links are down below as well. I would love it. If you guys would consider sharing some aspects of your story. If you're looking for a place to do that. We have a face book discussion group that's private. It's screened. I hope it's safe. I hope it remains safe and it's a place where you can dabble to share some things that have happened with you in a place where other people will not call you crazy. Because if they call you crazy we kick them out. And also if you want to stay updated with this podcast, I would encourage you subscribe. However, you do that. On YouTube or iTunes because I used to spend a lot of energy like an hour or two posting links to this every time you release it and I'm I'm not going to be doing that anymore. I don't think after this episode. So if you want to be notified, you're going to have to take care of that on your own. I'm not going to do it on Instagram necessarily. As always guys. It's a pleasure to be able to share our story and to be given the time and the attention from you guys. Thanks for listening. Peace. I'll see you next time.
Ben and Kami share their first 2-star review that accuses them of fudging their story, waging war against family and church and all sorts of exaggeration. They share some background of the reviewer, why they think the review was written, and some behind the scenes of why we started our podcast. We also share the most valuable tool that you can use to fight oppressive systems. 