Quick question. Have you ever wanted to start your own podcast? Have you ever thought about starting one? Well because like when I was trying to get this podcast project freelance off the ground, I had a lot of questions. Like how do I record an episode? How do I get the show on Apple podcast Spotify and all the other places that people listen to podcasts on? How do I make money from my podcast was like, obviously one of the biggest questions I had because I knew that I was going to be doing it weekly. Well the answer to every single one of these questions.Is really simple that's anchor anchor is a One-Stop shop for recording hosting and distributing your podcast and best of all, it's a hundred percent free super easy to use and right now anchor will also match you with sponsors so you can get paid even more to podcast. So I use I use anchor for sponsors. I use anchor for distribution on platforms that are not Apple podcasts because I host through SoundCloud so I drag everything. A over to Anchor and I upload it here separately and it allows me to then distribute the podcasts and more apps as well as get sponsors for the podcast. So if you've ever wanted to start a podcast and make money doing it go to Anchor dot f m / start to join me and the diverse community of podcasters already using anchor that's anchored on FM / start. Can't wait to hear your podcast. Send me a link. Hey, what's up? Welcome back to project freelance. How's it going guys? Welcome to the podcast. If you are a new high, we are almost at our 100th episode. Where have you been but we are happy to have you here now. Thank you for joining us. This is Project freelance. This is a podcast where I talk to you about freelancing. I bring on guests from different Industries and they share their insights and their tips and tricks on freelancing and this week on the podcast. I have Rob Haberman. And he is a concert and wedding photographer and I wanted to talk to him about a couple of things this week on the podcast and dive deep into concert photography his opinions on things and we talk a lot about mental health in this podcast. And I think that's something that is very important to be talked about I struggle with my own version of mental health problems, and I'm sure that a lot of you out there also do and you know what? It's okay not to be. Okay you guys and it's okay to ask. For help and it's okay to help yourself. Remember you are the most important person in your life. You have to be the most important person in your life because it's your life you have to live it. And so with that we are going to jump into this podcast, but I just want to remind you guys we are about to hit our 100th episode. Thank you so much for continuing to listen to this podcast. I love that. There's like a little cult following with this podcast. It's so fun. Thank you guys for listening continuously. I love reading the Comments. I love reading your feedback. So if you like this episode, if you like the podcast do me a favor and leave some feedback under this episode on whatever platform you're on whether you're on Spotify Apple podcasts. Anchor. Where are you listening as podcast? I'm curious tweet me at project freelance. I want to know where you're listening to the podcast at. Yeah. If you do dig what I'm doing here, please leave some feedback and leave a rating on the podcast. All right, let's jump into this episode Rob, please introduce yourself and what it is. You do to the audience. My name is Rob haverman and I'm a freelance concert wedding photographer. And how did you get into photography? It's kind of a weird story. Then Bruce who isn't Asking Alexandria used to have this record label called KBB records and they like honestly, I don't even know how they got my email address. They like basically reach out and it's like hey you have this like suicide nonprofit and we have this band that like really likes that. Message or whatever. Can you come in like interview them at the Vans Warped Tour was like yeah, that'd be sick. Like and I had no no Concert Experience whatsoever. Like I literally did I mean no photography experience whatsoever. I literally didn't didn't even have a camera or anything. It's like yeah, that'd be sick. Like I would love to do that. And then like, I don't know maybe a week or two before I was like, oh my God, I should probably buy a camera or something to like record this interview. Like this is like a huge label and like they want all this like video and audio and stuff like that and I had had no idea what the hell I was doing. So I went to Best Buy and got like a Best Buy credit card and like bought a Canon T3i. And then honestly, I didn't even end up doing video on the interview, but it was like it I end up being like a bunch of really great people in that. I ended up shooting Vans Warped Tour that year and I was like, oh my gosh, this is literally like the best thing I've ever done. I want to do this every day of my life. So I've been doing it ever since wow, so you literally just got thrown into the deep end of Vans Warped Tour tell me what that was like, Shooting your first your first time shooting at Warped Tour what an experience that must have been. Yeah. Yeah. It was awesome. I've been going to work her since like 2007. So I was like familiar with the atmosphere, but I'd never like honestly like I didn't even really know that like Hunter photography was the thing and they literally that gave me a press pass. I was like, oh, I wonder if I could like go up and shoot by the stage and I like I happen to have a friend that I knew like from going to shows and I was like am I allowed to like go up in the photo Pitter? Like I didn't Call it a photo because I didn't know if that's what it was called. But almost like a lot of like go by the security guards or whatever and like take photos and she's like, yeah, of course you could do that for the first three songs and I'll never forget I was like, oh my gosh, that's so cool. Like this. Is this amazing and like I don't know like we had been having like a super super super hot Chicago summer. And for whatever reason it was just like super nice that day. It was like for it was like 70 and sunny and it was it was like seriously the best that like honestly like that day. It sounds cheesy but like that day totally My life, like if I wouldn't have done that then like obviously I never would have got into photography. Yeah, and I mean rest in peace to Warped or you know, I interviewed Kevin Lyman on this podcast before and that's real talk to him about you know, what it would take to to create the next warped or like what what he put into it and how he built it. And so for those that will never get to photograph a warped or what was it like like what was The interactions like the crowds like just explain that a little bit. Yeah. I mean, I feel like the crowds are like to me I think Warped Tour is like yeah, it was like a music festival but there was like some there's like a sense of community like that. I've never seen another like Festival like there was like the Mayhem Festival at all that stuff and like all these massive tours that have all these great bands. Like there was just something about Warped Tour this like unlike anything else. It's theirs. Huge community and everybody was like so relaxed and like like the bands just like hanging out and like, you know having barbecues or whatever like that's at least in my experience that is unlike any other like, you know traveling to her like that shooting it is seriously like the most amazing thing. Imagine just being you know for me I was like a scene kid. Well, I mean, I guess I still am but I wasn't seeing kid then and it was like all of like, you know, if you were to tell me. Oh, yeah, you can go and shoot this show. And I was like, you know 15 of your favorite bands and you got to photograph all of them in one day. It was like went from like zero to a hundred all like just amazing like oh, yeah, I'm gonna go pick between you know my number for favorite band on my number two favorite band. Oh man. I hope I could run between the two stages and go to both like it's just something like, you know, there's nothing else like it. So when it comes to your education as a photographer, are you completely self-taught 100% taught from the YouTube Academy Heaven. I've never taken a photography class. Like it sounds like kind of cheesy but like literally everything I've ever done everything I've ever learned is like by doing it or by watching YouTube videos. Like I learned like I literally watch like I can of T3i tutorial video the night before like the night before work. It was like I should probably figure out how to use this and like yeah literally all like the internet and like just asking people and like and just like learning over the years. I talked to a lot of different people on this podcast about you know, whether they should go to like film school or photography school or whatever, but for those out there that are trying to do YouTube University who were some of the people that you watched on YouTube when you were learning Peter McKinnon was like he's like the the the big guy that I watch because he does photography and does like Gear reviews and stuff like that. And then Jared polin froknowsphoto.com to be more into like doing concerts and stuff. So he would he would upload videos on concerts. Yeah his channel. I believe it's called froknowsphoto like frog because he has like a big afro, and yeah, he both of them still do do a ton of content Jared polin more now, I think Peter McKenna Is actually doing like a documentary with like Angels and Airwaves or something like that. So I know he hasn't been like uploading as much but yeah, honestly like between the two of those like that's that's like all I watched like obsessing over like even on like my break at work like I got 20 minutes. Okay, I'm gonna go watch 18 minutes of video, you know. Yeah Peter is definitely working on an Angels and Airwaves documentary right now. I just reached out to him through his Instagram email to see if he could do the The podcast but the email bounced back. So like if anybody out there look it up to this knows Peter McKennon. I'm trying to get in touch with the guy hook it up so I can have them on this podcast. I think it would be a great episode. But yeah, I also love their content. I think that definitely heater is doing amazing things and I haven't checked out Jarrod stuff, but I definitely will so let's talk about some of your influences photography wise. Yeah, honestly like She doesn't shoot as much anymore. But like Liz Peterson, I believe she's out of like Baltimore ish. She like one thing I know like her that I get like inspired by her photos is like her colors are so rich and just like so like I feel like I'm literally at the show. They're they're incredible like her yellows and oranges are like, they're like a like nothing else and then Rosario Gutierrez or some people know res don't shoot Skrillex because that's like her name on all social media. And it's so funny. Like we've been at shows together and people come up you like. Hey, you're don't shoot Skrillex, right? It's like what the hell? Yes, but my name is our her neck. She's like, yeah. My name is Rosario. Yeah, she's she's like an incredible Creator Nina to addict is also another one of those people that constantly inspires me also re duker. He he is the true or photographer for August Burns Red. He's like his stuff is just so so crispy. He's one of those people that Kind of switch back with Jean Cannon and so nice to me and him have talked about that a little bit because I've bounced around between Canaan and Sony to yeah, those those people are big Inspirations to me as far as since we're talking about gear. What do you do? You have a preference between Sony or Cannon? Yeah. I'm a I'm a cannon Fanboy now for a while. I thought yeah, maybe mirrorless is like the way to go and like Sony was like kill. I mean they still are but they like killing the game for formulas. And so I had I bought an a A 7/2 and like shot with that fur like I'll probably about a year and I was like, yeah, this is okay. But like I still like Mike and I like my Canon colors so I sold that and now I got all can and stuff. I got a 5D Mark for and it us are so now the Cannons got like a semi-pro mirrorless. I thought I use that thing all the time. Yeah. I'm a huge cannon fan boy though. Yeah, I I've been kind of wondering if I should go back to Cannon, you know, I've been on the a7s2 since for a while. But I started out on Canon and like you write something about the colors of Cannon really really make it stand out as a product. It sounds like sounds cheesy, but like Canon colorscience, like it makes you like for me at least it makes like the workflow so much faster. If you don't have to do like so much color correcting like obviously that takes time and time is money, you know, especially because like I shoot weddings too. So like I feel like the Canon skin colors like when I'm doing weddings are and like I don't know it's something about like The guy like the greens like to me at least on this on is that I've shot the greens look like very off. I know they could just be me but like it seems like you know the skin colors and like the greens are are on point for Canon. Yeah. I know what you're talking about because I've seen it in myself, you know, you can see like the the Hughes almost are like a little often like in the skin tones greens come out a little bit more which is like kind of yeah. So I've totally noticed that myself. So let's let's talk about what happened after Warped Tour like you did this one gig at Warped Tour and then what yeah, and then I like just so hat. Like I said, I had like my own nonprofit that was like a suicide prevention and I reached out to this band Escape the Fate they were on tour of the Five Finger Death Punch at the time and there I was like, Hey, I want us to down to like do this interview with you because at the time there basis Max Green had like just got Of like treatment for like a drug addiction kind of thing and he was like very open to like talking about like recovery and stuff like that. So I reach out to him and he like literally didn't have anything to do with like photography for say but I like reach out to him and I was like, yeah, like let's do this interview and he's like, okay cool. I'll give you a photo pass. And so I ended up shooting and I literally had no idea what I was doing. I was like shooting an audit and stuff like that. So I shot Five Finger Death Punch and Escape the Fate a couple other bands at The Raven. Waukee this like legendary venue, which I had no idea was like this like sick venue. So I did that that was like the like, I don't know maybe a couple months after work to her and I was like and I'd be like I want to do this like so I like I said, I shot that show and then okay. Well, how do I go about like getting into more shows like this? Because this is sick like they give me a plus one. I brought my girlfriend. Like how can I do this more? And so I just like started shooting like it's weird like most Old like say like, oh, yeah start shooting local shows. It was honestly like the opposite for me like obviously weren't hers like a huge show and then like five finger death punch is obvious like a huge, you know band and I kind of did like it backwards. I shot like a bunch of huge bands like a bunch of bigger but not not like local bands. I shot like nationally touring bands first and then I was like, oh, yeah. I'm going to start shooting like oh Vance because this is sick too. Yeah, honestly just like kind of spiraled and then like it went from like, okay. I have one show month. Okay, maybe not I have three shows a month. Okay now, Maybe I have you know five or six shows a month now. It's like okay. I got like three four five six shows a week now which is like kind of insane. But yeah, just honestly just kind of snowball then it was like all about like networking with other people and like like the sounds really cliche but like just not being a dick head and like just trying to talk to people like that. I think that's honestly like a big part of like how I've been able to shoot somebody shows. Yeah. Yeah, I think networking is a huge component and that especially when you're going to shows and trying to shoot more shows. Talk about like how you figured out how to network. Like did it just come naturally to you or yeah, honestly, what was it like, yeah, like I think you know, I've always liked people voice told me I'm like super compassionate and like I've always liked had like a way of like talking to people and more of like a like a helpful way not necessarily like with networking per se but being able to like, you know, make make people feel comfortable and honestly, I just kind of like and I didn't do that. Naturally, it's not like I'm you know, trying to be you know disingenuine with that and like just do it to you know, get in good with people like that's obviously not the case at all. Like I just you know, like I'm pretty good at talking to people so just being able to have like a conversation or somebody literally just like last night. I was at a show and there's this dude just standing there. He was shooting but it was like after the third song so I literally stopped and I started talking to him and turns out we had to like a couple of mutual friends but like that just like a little connection. Action that I made like, you know something so easy like that just just introducing yourself like, you know, you could like be able to help them down the road or they might be able to help you down the road. It's it's all like, you know, you got to make those little connections. Absolutely networking is so vital to freelancing. Like that's the best way we can get our names out there, you know. So with with the music industry. Yeah, absolutely, especially with the music industry. It's so small. So these gigs you're getting where are you finding them? How are you? How are the band's getting in touch with you? Like how does that process go when you actually get booked to shoot a show. So in the beginning it was just like me reaching out. Front like I would just go straight to the band's management or like their PR whatever even before I was like shooting for a publication because honestly like at that time there wasn't like the market wasn't as saturated. So they were more likely to give you a pass without a publication now, it's like pretty pretty hard to get a pass without a publication for any like for the majority of nationally touring acts like they want to know that like they're going to get you know, they're going to get like press coverage from this that Not just going to give you ticket for free, you know. Yeah, I just like reach out to like the PRS or management and they're like, yeah sure come out and then I send them all the photos after and like most of the time they would even post them or like half the time. I wouldn't even get an email back, but I'd still just like try to make those connections and like follow up with them after Blake. I just want to make sure you got this stuff like that and then now recently like I've been lucky enough to work like directly with venues. I'm the house photographer at the bottom Lounge in Go which is like this super super sick venue. They have like a ton of shows there that I like I should say they book a lot of shows there that I like with the music that I like like maybe a week or two ago shot. Literally my all-time favorite band The Devil Wears Prada and so like that's been that's been super sick and and then recently I've started working more with this other venue called the metro and that literally is like kind of a networking thing to I got asked to shoot a show is actually a lot of Clues after show for a publication and then Just happen to run into the pr lady for the Metro after and we just like got to talking and then made that connection there and she kind of was like hey, do you want to come start shooting shows for us? And it's like yeah, of course like I love going in the Metro. I would love to shoot whatever show you want. Here's this this and this that I want to do and they have been very accommodating for that, which is very I'm very lucky and appreciative of that. So let's talk about social media real quick. Talk about how social media has come into play when it comes to being a freelancer. I think it's you'd honestly like, um, like having like a social media presence not even just for like photography but like being having like a social media like following can literally like get you a career and make you money and like that's like that could be like a Assist that a sustainable income like Ali like like Ali said earlier like Peter McKinnon and Jared polin, like that's their full-time job, you know, you can make money by you can make like career money by you know uploading to YouTube. I think like it's very important. Some people will disagree that like, yeah, like you don't need to have social media to book gigs, but like honestly a lot of my like a lot of the connections that I've made I've been through Facebook or Instagram Facebook Instagram or Twitter like just being out there and like posting your stuff constantly helps so much like every every event that I go to on on Facebook every single one whether I'm shooting or you know Arch that whether it's a show or like, you know, and any little thing even if I'm like shooting a wedding like I'll check into the venue like oh yeah shooting a wedding here or like last year. I did a wedding in Hawaii. So I posted about that and it's just like that little bit of like people That you're out there doing the thing and they could see that and there's like there's like a constant history of like, okay this person did this show and this show and oh they're working with this person. Like I think that gives you more credibility the more and more people see that and then honestly, like if you get yourself spread around to then that's you know, the more likely people are going to be see your stuff and want to you know hire you or take you out on tour. How are you to shoot their wedding or any of that stuff, you know? For for weddings and stuff. How how did you get into that? Honestly, like I've always wanted to do it once I started shooting or like, you know, once I like kind of figured out what was going on I wanted to do it because as a lot of people know there's not really a ton of money in music photography, which is fine. Like it's not necessarily about the money but like, you know, obviously the income of of wedding photography is significantly better. Then in almost music industry stuff. So there is like obviously the draw from from making more money and honestly, like just seeing people that are so like in love with each other and being and having them trust you on you know, what is essentially the biggest day of their life is just like awesome to me. So like it sounds like kind of ridiculous, but I aside from like posting on social media and I have like a couple of pictures on my website, but I've literally never like like had any marketing dollars going Into wedding photography. It's literally just all word of mouth. I think that kind of goes back to like making those connections like just literally like talking to people at weddings. Like I've booked at least three maybe four weddings just by like happen to talk to people at the wedding and you know, being nice and being accommodating to people and you know, if you're going to do that people are more likely to refer you so that it's all just like it's kind of like a spiraling effect like once you start doing it it's going to you know, obviously if things are Well, it's going to keep going. Yeah, definitely. So for let's talk a little bit about Feast first famine. So tell me if you've ever dealt with this if you deal with this currently or anything like that fees first famine, for those of you listening basically is you could have weeks where you have a ton of work and then you could have weeks where there's no work coming in. So Rob talk a little bit about that. At yeah, I think for me that's like I struggle with that a lot because I have a terrible tendency to overbook myself and that is like whether it be like just a couple weeks ago. I did three shows on a night all not a not even close to the same venue. They were like half an hour away from each other. So like I struggle with being able to coordinate that and I feel like you know for me, I you know some times out of the Year. I'll have to take like a month maybe two months off. And for me, that's fine. Like I honestly like get kind of burnt out on it sometimes with with a feast part because yeah, I love doing it. But if you're doing it, you know, five six seven nights a week. You have to be careful that sometimes you get burned out and you'll start to lose love for it. But um, yeah, I try to not try to not I guess feasts too much. Yeah, it's definitely that's definitely something I struggle with is. Not overdoing it. Yeah, I think I have a similar problem. But I feel like sometimes even if I'm overdoing it. I feel like I'm not doing enough. Do you ever yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah hundred percent. I feel like like even if I'm the even if the bands are happier than management, whatever is happy. I feel like I could have done this better. I could have edited that photo differently. Like I'm always like second-guessing myself on on the actual like quality of work that I'm producing even though like the bands are happy. That's really what matters you know, if your client is Happy with the stuff you're creating then that's really what matters it. I feel like a lot of people get stuck in their own head with that and they like, you know / think / think a lot of things and like you're just here to create art if your clients are happy, then that's what matters, you know, try not to overthink it. Yeah, absolutely and I think you know, we all deal with that. So I think it's important to talk about it. I do quickly want to talk about the nonprofit real quick talk a little bit about that creating that what it's called. Called you haven't even mentioned the name of it yet. The nonprofit that I originally started was called team recovery. It's no longer a thing anymore. So basically like my story is I struggle with mental health for 4 years and I got to the point where I like basically check myself into treatment. And after I got out I was like Hey, I want to you know start something. I didn't know exactly what I wanted to basically help like help kids or help people not feel the same shit that I was feeling all like the negative thoughts on my head. So I made an Instagram page called team recovery and like the next morning. I woke up and I had like, oh, I have 30 followers the next day. It was like, oh, I have 200 followers. Oh the next day. I have 500 front and like it grew very very very rapidly. So that made me realize like hey, there's like a real need for this. I did like the legal the legal work to you know to make it actual nonprofit and to be honest like that was significantly harder and more expensive than I thought it was and it was still Not exactly what I wanted. So Johnny Boucher the founder of an organization called hope for the day she got Chicago based organization reach out to me is like a man. I see what you're doing. But like do you want to come work with us? We have like the budget to do what you want to do and like you could still do what you want to do. But like like do it under our name and honestly at first I was like nah, man, I really don't want to do this. I want to do like my own thing and then after like a couple months of like seeing all of like the great work that they're doing like, yeah. Okay. Maybe I need to do this. So I disbanded team recovery, which is my nonprofit and started working exclusively with hope for the day and that's been about probably about six years. Now my position there is a surrogate basically I go to different shows different concerts and set up a booth or table and hand out resource cards. So hopefully today is basically a proactive Suicide Prevention and mental health education. Nonprofit. We are not like a crisis hotline or anything. We're Just providing the resources for the people that are you know, those hotlines and like this our slogan is it's okay not to be. Okay, and that's like it's very simplistic but it's very it's very like accurate like the idea that like it's okay to struggle and then it's okay to like, you know not be a hundred percent. All the time is huge and I feel like especially like people in the creative field. They're like Freelancers. I feel like a lot of people struggle with that like I especially with like out and like, you know questioning questioning like your quality of worker like constantly comparing yourself to others. So that's that's like a big thing that we do so I go and set up these tables at shows and and actually do public speaking now to about like my story and like how I show the mental health and how you know shit does get better with obviously hard work. But yeah, basically we do that and now we're doing a thing called the conversations Cafe. Where we basically go out to like schools and churches and all these different things. I'm sorry. I totally called that the wrong name. It's called the things we don't say now conversations Cafe. But anyways, the things we don't say is like a program where we go out and do mental health first aid training the basic helps people understand the warning signs of somebody that might be going through Mental Health crisis how to approach them what to say what not to say that kind of stuff and basically opening the conversation about mental health because it's there's a huge stigma there the people Just don't want to you know don't want to acknowledge affect the mental health is a very real thing and it affects a lot of people. So yeah, basically we're just trying to get the word out about mental health. Yeah, and I think it's important to that you brought all this up because we do struggle with, you know, our own self doubts and a lot of Freelancers also deal with mental health problems because they are in a very stressful type of work environment. You know, we we Put ourselves into this this little box like a lot of us work from home. Like I personally work from home and like being at home by yourself. All the time is like the healthiest thing for you and like for me personally, like I just moved in with a roommate. So I'm like trying to like navigate that whole situation and I'm like working from home and all that stuff. So it's like I just want people out there listening to know that It's okay. Like like you said it's okay not to be okay, we all struggle with stuff and hopefully I've lost jobs over my mental health, you know, like I'm sure you can relate I'm sure there's people out there that can relate I've literally had people tell me they can't work with me until I get my like mental health in order, you know, and it's like sometimes sometimes you just have to take a step back and and re-evaluate what you're doing and just take a second for yourself and take care of yourself. I think one thing that I say to myself all the time when I'm Getting down on my own thoughts as like like I'm the most important person in my life. Like that's not selfish. Like you have to take care of yourself before you take care of others or like before you go out there and like if you're not right in your own head or if you're not, you know in a good mental space or any of that like it's going to be so much harder. You have to take care of yourself first and like I know people that struggle with mental health that's a very hard thing to do because like I said earlier, like a lot of people have like self-doubt like you have to take yourself seriously and have to take your mental health Seriously and put yourself first or else, you know shits, you know, it's not going to work out right? How do you keep yourself positive? Whenever you're going through these doubtful times? Like what are some things that you can do as a freelancer when you're struggling with, you know, your self-doubt you don't think you're good enough. What are some are there some like exercises that you can do or like can you help guide people a little bit there? Yeah. Well for me what I do, I think like for helping my mental health is I do the public speaking. I got to these Chozen and you know talk to you know, essentially just random strangers but something that helps me a lot to is like change up what I'm doing like obviously I shoot a lot of shows but like if I'm kind of getting burnt out on that or like kind of down on my work I go out and like trying to shoot Landscapes or like trying to do Street stuff, like just just changing up a little bit will give you like a to me. At least it gives me like a whole new perspective and like like I'll go out and like take Street portraits and like to me that helps me. When I go to shows and like bands bands hire me to do like band promos, you're more comfortable talking to people and like guiding them. You know what you want. So like that's what I do is like just go out and change it up or either that or just set it down. Like I said earlier there's been times where I just don't shoot for like a month or two like you you literally have to take yourself or you have to put yourself first because like obviously photography or like any any creative thing is important, but like you have to take care of yourself first Amen brother thank you. I appreciate that. So you posted something on Facebook the other day and I want to own a bring it up. I want to talk about it. You said I mean you said something to the effect that if you have a photo pass you shouldn't need to buy a ticket. Where did this come from? What happened? And why I why did you post this on Facebook? Because I agree with you. I agree. Yeah, honestly never in my wildest dreams that I think that people were going to get so riled up about something that I thought was like, I don't understand why photographers would get mad about that. So basically my my status said PSA PhotoPass should count as a ticket or something something that effect nobody Chef to work. Pay to work for free. So basically what I meant by that is that some venues around around Chicago. You have to get a photo pass and then they either expect you to buy a ticket or be in the bins guest list to me. If you're if you have a PhotoPass, obviously the band is either hiring you or want you there. Why should we also have to buy a ticket? And and also like let's be honest like foremost most smaller like Publications. They don't pay they don't have a budget. Or they are not going to pay for a ticket that just like the nature it at least in my experience is that's like the nature of how it goes. So like my thing was like a coast. So say I gotta prove to shoot a show. Why should I have to pay to now give this band or this venue or whatever this management free content. That was like what I was getting at because it happened at a show the other night. They gave us a VIP pass. It was mean one of the person a VIP pass a ticket and a PhotoPass. So we And it did this interview came out and like when got food because it was like way before the show came out when got food. And then when I went to go back in they wouldn't let the other person back in because they didn't have a separate ticket. We only had the one ticket and a photo pass and then the VIP. Well, apparently that that footpath didn't count as a ticket. So now this person that was supposed to be writing review and doing stuff for the show that we I'm not sure if I'm not sure if they got hired but basically that we were, you know, writing a magazine. Gisin article about this this band in the show now. She can't get back in because the venue decided that oh, yeah now they got to buy a ticket like to me. That doesn't seem right. Yeah, I guess like and somebody's like a couple people like chimed in in the Facebook thing and said like oh, yeah, like management have to paver guestlist spots and like and honestly, I have never heard that if I'm wrong in that then like feel free to correct me, but I've never heard that like management has to pay for guest list spot or like the band has to pay for guest list. I could totally be wrong in that but the way that I look at it as like yeah, if you're if you're going in providing, you know content or like videos or some sort of media or something, then you shouldn't have to pay for that your work. Everybody's work is valuable, you know what I mean, whether or not you get paid or not. That's between you and the band or the you know, you and the management whatever obviously not everybody has the luck of getting getting paid for everything and that's unfortunately the nature of the beast, but I was literally just trying to make a point that people shouldn't have to pay like paying as in buy a ticket to the show to work and not get paid by publication. Yeah. It's always going to piss off some people but I agree. I mean, I think if you have a photo pass and you're there to work, I think that should count as your end. And I mean there have been I've been to a Rena like Arena shows where you have your first three songs, and then you can either wait outside or you can go watch the rest of the show and a seat like they give you a ticket and I I've never I've also never heard of management having to pay for guest spots. That's something I've never. Never heard of I haven't either not not really sure where that came from. But two separate people said that to one on Facebook and one on Twitter, so I don't know if that's like maybe in some different genres or something like that. I don't know. The only other time I've ever had like, I guess you not even like an issue but it's been like a Live Nation thing with bigger shows. They don't they clearly tell you that they're not giving you a ticket and they'll you have to meet it. Let's just say mitigate to and they have like a media person that literally walks you from the outside gate down to the photo pit. And then after you're done with it two or three songs or whatever then they walk you back out just like I know that I can't blame that on the bands or their management. I'm almost a hundred percent positive. That's a Live Nation thing why they do that. I'm not a hundred percent sure. But I mean, I guess there's probably a reason for Live Nation just does things a little bit differently. Yeah, something that I don't necessarily agree with but I mean it is what it is. It's like you're going to change it sound like you're going to change their policy. Yeah. So for for those that are out there that maybe want to get into live music photography and they don't necessarily get a warped or as their first into the world of Photography. What's some advice you could give them for starting to get into shows and getting Actual paid gigs. Yeah, I think first and foremost know your camera in and out you you could have like the beginner nowadays every camera is good enough to be able to do, you know, obviously the higher end cameras. It's going to make it easier but 99% of the cameras now are you know good enough or you're going to be able to get you know, good images in low light. I think knowing your camera the BET like knowing everything about your By knowing how to you know, the best way to get you know pictures in low light to the that camera's ability is going to say way more than you know, having a 10,000 dollar set up knowing knowing your gear and how to you know, get the most out of it as huge and ones you like start to realize that I would suggest going to local shows. I'm sure if you're listening to music, there's some sort of local seen wherever wherever you're at. I live in Chicago, so I'm very lucky that we have a Very very great local scene. So honestly, I would just suggest reaching out to local bands. Nine times out of ten. They're gonna fuck. Yeah sure here come and come to the show and take photos and you know sometimes you know, sometimes with that they might not necessarily pay for your ticket because a lot of local bands like don't have the money and like to me that's not that it's initially okay, but like if you can't like if you're not guaranteed to give them like quality images Then that like I suppose I could understand that. You know, like I guess if you're just going to go and shoot a show to you know gain experience. That's okay to shoot for free or not get paid. I understand that but like honestly just go out to local shows, you know, cut your teeth on doing local shows and load dingy light or low light dingy bars and stuff like that. Honestly, like some of my favorite photos are taken. All right, you know 10,000 ISO and a 40th of a second. I don't know if that's AI don't know if that's the exact numbers, but you don't like some of my favorite photos are in like these teeny dive bars that are like ended up being like super sick shows and like sometimes you know, you never know like what that connection is going to make like I literally was shooting a 80s like an 80's disco party that honestly like I wasn't super hyped about and I ended up meeting like the owner of the venue next door that had who did they go they had against me playing and he was like, yeah senior shooting in there. Like why don't you come and shoot against me. I was like, oh, that'd be sick. So like just little connections like that like going to local shows and like networking and being able to like make these connections and slowly, you know, gaining more more knowledge about your camera and photography and obviously eventually upgrading gear and you know, I think that's how and then once once you're like comfortable with that and you know, you basically build a build a name for The new can create recognition for being a photographer then bands are going to be more likely to pay you if they know that you can create quality stuff consistently and they know hey, you know, you've worked with this band or you've worked with this band. Oh, they said you were really fun to work with our you were pleasure to work with her, you know, they really like your stuff. They recommended you it's all about like making little connections and that's like I don't know that I think that's how you could like start making money is is once you're like, you know have a name for yourself in the local. Seen exactly growing your name in the local scene is one of the best ways to you know, start promoting to start getting business, you know, you just have to get out there and people have to know who you are and like Rob was saying earlier social media can help a lot with with getting your name out there. And you know now there's things like like local ad space marketing online that you can even like throw some money into if you want to get Into it even more if you're trying to do like stuff on a local level look into like Instagram add tools and Facebook ad tools and all that kind of stuff. If you have the money to do that, obviously, if you're just starting out, you're not going to have the money to do that, but it's just another way to grow your business in general. So have you ever been on tour? I have not I did there was this bad actually the band that got me the first after gig they were an opener for Mushroomhead like maybe three or four years ago and they're like, yeah, why don't you come in like take some photos of these shows you could like write in our van and I was like, oh shit, that'd be sick. Like it honestly like I was still pretty new at it. So I was like, I've never done anything like this. This would be awesome. This is going to be huge and then like two days before they were like, yeah. So management said you can't ride in the bus. But if you want you could just like follow the tour I was like what the fuck and I was like and I was like, I mean like this is like a huge opportunity. I gotta do this like and it was there was only it was only like a I don't even know if it's a weekend might have been like five or six days and I was like, yeah, you know what fuck it. I'm just gonna do it like whatever I'll sleep in my car and like that was like so dumb like I should not have done that but you did it. You totally did it. I totally did it. Oh my God. What? Yeah your first Tour Ever you were by yourself chasing the door. Yeah. Yeah and like they I want to say they had a dream. I don't want to say they had a driver to so like I would like hang out with him all day and like take promos and like do all this stuff and then they would like go and get to sleep in the van and I would still have to drive, you know, 400 miles to Bumfuck, Illinois. Yeah, it was honestly like when people ask if I tore like I don't really even consider that because it was like and then honestly like I don't even remember if Or what? I think they just like gave me I think they might have given me gas money because they're like we feel so bad about yeah, they definitely didn't pay me. They their driver was like, yeah, I'll like hook you up with gas. Yeah. I didn't like profit anything. It was I would it was not I would definitely not do that now, but I mean honestly like it was it was a good experience because I like became friends with like a couple of other bands and like actually that's it was Was this band scare? Don't fear and then head PE and mushroom head and now had PE those guys are like some of my favorite like they're like some of my best friends. I just recently shot problems for them. And one of the photos that I took was on a billboard in Bulgaria, like what the hell who would ever thought I never would have met those people if I hadn't done those that five six days with that with that band that's not even a band anymore. Like it's all about those little those little things, you know, you never know how it's going to help you in the future. Wow. I can't believe you did that. I can't believe you you actually did it man. Honestly, I honestly I kind of forgot about it until you ask them like oh shit. Yeah, that's right. I guess I did do that. We've all done little weird things like yeah. I'm yeah, we've all put ourselves in really uncomfortable positions. Yeah, right, you know make a connection or whatever. I mean the first tour I went on our van didn't even have a heat shield in the floor. So we're burning up the whole time. We had holes in them. Socks of the middle of winter the bands are breaking up at the in the tour like oh my God. Oh my God, that's awful. It was a it was quite the first torques. It was seen that I mean now you have now you have a story to talk about an obviously like it was fun because you're laughing about it, you know, exactly and it's like you remember all the little fun moments that because there were actually like Great Moments, you know, it was a great experience traveling the country with these complete strangers and you just ya know them, you know, it's like Elsewhere else what other kind of job gives you that kind of opportunity to just like Trower on the country or strangers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's actually there's a local photographer here. That was that was recently told me about how like he got asked to go on tour by people that he's never met and I was like dude they that concept is so terrifying like what if you guys just like didn't Clash I like, you know, like what if they were super rude or like what if they were like into hardcore drugs and you are straight at her like just like all these like possible things that could happen. He's like, yeah, honestly like I don't even think about it. It's went and now they're like some of my best friends like that's so rad like that's how like music It brings people together like that, you know, you could be literally from like not even the same country and have all these like common interests. I think it's super sick. Yeah, and at the end of the day you're all coming together to watch this band play a show every night and it's like the culmination of your day. Is this show and that's like everyone's release is the show, you know, that's their point after creative Outlet their energetic Outlet, like that's where they go to work, you know, and it's like in the all the other time on Tori you're in a van together you're getting to know each other and I mean like you said what if somebody's you know a hardcore drug addict and your straight edge? Yeah, shake happy like you never know. Yeah. I've been on tour with like people like some awful people. I've been on a couple tours with like really awful people and it's like you don't have a choice you have to deal with it. You have to live through it and you have to struggle through it and like it can either tear you down and destroy you. Or it can make you grow as a person and you can learn from those experiences. Yeah, how did you cuz like I I've got a couple tour offers that like I didn't take but like how did you deal with like, you know, you're like, let's just say like the you guys have like, you know clashing opinions on something. How do you personally like deal with that? um So I'm at my best policy is to actually communicate about it. But if if you're dealing with somebody that doesn't communicate with words, they just communicate with like anger or like talking behind your back. Like I've dealt with somebody that just talked shit about me to the entire towards awful just which is like what the fuck were trying to work here and it's exactly why would you why would you do that? Because now these people think like a certain thing of And maybe that wasn't even true maybe people were like on my side the whole time. I just don't know right? All I know is that this person was like talking shit about me and I was trying to do my job and I thought I was doing my job properly. So we had to get like we had to get the company involved and like all this stuff. You know, Michael. Yeah. It's and we had to get like the head of tour involved which like you never want to go to production for anything because like right that means that it's like real shit. You know, so right that's when I get serious. Yeah, and I mean talk about like mental mental struggles Mental Health on the road like that that will seriously break you down. You have to live with these people and you're not getting along with them like imagine, you know, like and like I said, we just have to you just have to go through it and you just have to try to survive it and just communicate and you know, like some people like I said earlier like don't want to communicate They just want to be angry about it, right? So yeah, I mean it's hard it's hard to deal with different personalities. But I mean on tour that's you learn a lot about yourself and you learn a lot about other people for sure. Yeah. I think that's that would that would be something hard that I would have to do with is like I think for the most part I get along with everybody pretty well, but like, you know, there's there's some things that like really set me off that. I don't know how I'd how I'd handle that. Yeah, you definitely learn learn how to cope with different personalities, but it can definitely be hard. It's definitely one of the harder things of tour is, you know dealing with that it can it can tear down an entire Camp, you know, just having one one fight can tear down the entire Camp. So it's like it's like It's hard to explain to her but it's got its ups and downs just like any other thing in life, you know, but do you would you ever consider going on tour again? Like a proper tour or yeah, do you want to like stay home? Yeah, there's a I got some things in the work for next year that I'm that aren't totally ironed out yet. But yeah, I would love to if nothing else is just say that I did it like I was I was supposed to A part of the sad summer tour this past summer and I basically like went to my boss and my day job and was like Hey, so I got this incredible opportunity to go on this tour this summer. It's three weeks long. I'm going to need that time off and I get three weeks paid vacation of my work and I lost is essentially like yeah. No, I'm not going to give it to you and I was like dude like I this is literally like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity like this is this is huge like I'm in there. I may never get this opportunity again, and he was like, yeah, so here's the This is in like January February and like said summer tour is like I don't know like May June July issue somewhere around there. So it was like months in advance is like I was asking him like a week before he goes. Yes. So sorry, he goes. Yeah, either you stay and we'll give you a raise or if you decide to take the tour. We're going to fire you on Friday and I was like what like, okay. Well, I guess I'm going to stay and like to be honest like I told you no like I told the people from said summer like yeah, I'm totally gonna do this and then like when the tour came I was just going to quit because like I you know, sometimes you got to take those risks and like do the tour and like, you know other stuff will work out eventually, you know, like I would beat myself up if I turned down especially a huge tour like that just for like a nine to five, you know, yeah, I would I would love to do I would love to tour just like if nothing else suggests like when I'm older be like, oh yeah toured with so So and so and like tell my kids like who knows maybe they'll like the band or whatever. But yeah, I think I think I'd be sick. I'd love to do it. Yeah, man, I'm itching to get back out in 2020. I've done a couple tours and I feel like I've taken time off that I didn't want to take off of touring like I wish I had continued touring but the opportunities weren't there at the time and so it's like now I'm trying to refine those opportunities and trying to get back into that. Tour to the touring world really trying to get my name back in it. So it's like it's hard to get back in but I'm excited for 2020 and I think I've got a couple offers so I'm stoked. Correct me if I'm wrong. You did warped her a year to right. Yeah, I did. So I did I did a few days back in 2014. And then in 2017. I was the alternative press correspondent. That's right. Yeah. It was amazing dude warped or was everything. I thought it was going to be it was crazy good. It was crazy bad. It was hot. It was cold. It was it was everything man. It was a it was quite quite the life experience. But oh my God, I had so much fun. And if it was happening again next year, I would beg Kevin Lyman to have me on it. Yeah that I think I think honestly like this past summer like made me think about like now that we're up here is like actually like officially gone like How sad it is that like all these people like so many people in the in music industry not just photographers or video people like so many people like got their start in at Warped Tour like like I know it's probably been talked about like a hundred times, but Eminem was on Warped Tour and like Blink-182 and like Katy Perry and all these like huge huge huge artists like started on Warped Tour and like that. It's like a huge bummer that that's not like a thing anymore that like people don't you know, they don't have that. That creative Outlet to be able to go out and work to her and do whatever 52 dates and play all these Super Rad shows. But yeah, I don't see like like for for photographers and like creators I think like they're I think a lot of us probably wouldn't have gotten into it if it wasn't for up to her at least in my opinion. Like I know I'd never would have if it wasn't for work to her if it wasn't like, you know, the things that led up to work to her. It sucks to see a go. Yeah, it's it's really the end of a legacy, you know, like it's hard to see something like that end. I mean what are people going to do in the summer? Like what are we going to do? Yeah. I actually just saw on Facebook the other day that Mayhem tour is coming back. Not that that's like a replacement or anything. But like that's still like a you know, like a cool huge Festival. Yeah Mayhem is a good one for sure. And I think like I don't know if saw a rock stars disrupt Fest that they did last. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was actually yeah, I went to the Chicago one here that the venue that they played at the Hollywood Casino Amphitheatre is one of the venues that hope that it has like a contract with Live Nation with so I met every one of the shows there and that was like it was it was good, but it just didn't have like warped her Vibes like yeah, a lot of the bands are super sick, but like it wasn't like it's like this kind of Feels familiar but like it doesn't feel like work to her. Like it's not like it doesn't have like that warped or sense of community. It least from my experience. Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people said about. It just seemed like a quick just a festival they put together not it didn't have that like family feeling to it and that might be because it's new. Yeah, I feel like work to her probably if I had to guess probably wasn't like it was at the end when it started. I feel like they're probably wasn't that huge sense of community because like obviously all these people that have been doing, you know, 15 or 20 or whatever years of war. They've they've like grown huge relationships with all these other people that have been doing it and they're I think that's like a huge part of like what like the the community aspect of it obviously would disrupt Fest being the first year. Most of those people probably don't have the connections with the other people. So maybe that's a part of it. But I mean, hopefully somebody can either like revive warped or like Franz was saying that he wants to talk to Kevin Lyman about possibly Reviving Warped Tour and I I posted the other day a clip from the podcast I did with Kevin Lyman and he was literally talking about Franz and he was like man that guy like people aren't going to go through their whole life saying suck my fuck but man he's figured it out and he's yeah smart guy and he's like such a genuine dude. It's crazy man. But yeah, I mean, hopefully somebody can either revive it or something new can come out and definitely no bring us back together and bring the family back together. You know, I think it would be It would be cool to have something that's like Warped tour again where bands are touring all summer. And I think I think it'll happen. It's just got to take time. Maybe I don't know. Maybe you will be surprised in 2020. Maybe somebody will show up with something exciting here in the next few months and and announce something. So let me ask you this. Have you ever been screwed over on any jobs? Yes, I there's a there's a festival that that hired me a couple of years ago to do some photo stuff and they didn't pay me, but they gave me some extra tickets. I was like, okay, whatever. That's fine. Like I've never worked with them before so like I understand the fact that they don't want to, you know, give me 500 bucks for a thousand bucks or whatever, you know. Suppose I understand that I was going to go anyway, so I was like, okay, whatever like they're giving me an you know, three other people tickets. Oh, that's sick. So I did all this content for them. As far as I know. They really liked it. They like, you know posted a bunch of it. It was on their website and all this stuff and like throughout the year throughout the year after that. They like their marketing director would text me. Sorry text me sometimes Saying like oh, yeah, like I love I love these photos or I love I love these photos that you did like like with shoots that I just posted and then like maybe two or three weeks before the Fest the next year. I'm basically I was under the impression that they were going to hire me back the next year because like that's that's what they'd been telling me telling me all year. Like that's they told me like at the end of the festival and then like assuming you're like because they told me like how much I like myself. I guess. I just assumed that they were going to hire me again the next year. So I didn't apply for press like through a publication and like two weeks before I texted one of the people there and it's like hey, so just wanted to like confirm that you still want me to do this and they're like, oh no, sorry. We actually we hired a group of five people from LA to come out and do it and we're like, well, they didn't tell me this what I heard, you know through the grapevine that they they hired a group of people to come out to LA and pay them and you know paid for their flight all that stuff. It's like, okay. Well, can you guys like like at least like help me out like cuz now like so this fast they like if you submit through publication and they deny you because there's so many people that apply they give you two free tickets. At least that's what I've heard. I haven't I had never shot the festival like through publication there, but they give you two free tickets. I was like, okay. So since the Press things already like closed because it was so close to the vessels. Like, is there any way I can get a photo pass and like not do that in there. No, sorry, I was like, okay cool. Like I guess like is there any chance like you can like honor a ticket? Because like, you know, that's what happens if I were to apply through press and I were to get denied and they're like no sorry and I was like, okay what the hell so now I got to spend, you know, 200 dish dollars to go like I ended up I ended up getting in through another friend but like I didn't shoot or anything, but it's like that was like, I literally like didn't apply for press and had been tailing. Everybody. Yeah, I'm doing this again. Like it's going to be sick and then I just didn't happen and I was like, okay, I guess I guess I could part of that suck a miscommunication on me. I probably should have followed up before that but still like it was like it was shitty and then they did like after shows that at other venues like in Chicago and the the pr person from that venue was like, yeah, so they have to approve all the photographers and for whatever reason they denied you for every All the after-show, there's like three or four after shows and you're the only person that they got that they denied the whole weekend and I was like, yeah and I was like, oh, okay. I don't know who I pissed off. But like wow, I didn't mean to you know, I mean so like like that wasn't necessarily like I didn't necessarily like lose money on that but it was like, okay so like that's like really shooting now and the thing that sucks about the after shows is like I was getting higher that guy was getting paid and then I got denied so it's like, okay, let's select Like what do I do? Now? You know what? I mean? Like that's to me that's not cool, but I don't know that that happened and then like and then like there was a there was another company that will remain unnamed that was known for not paying photographers and videographers that had me after shoot a show and and never paid me for that and then ask for the high res files the high res file of one of the photos because they Use it as a tour poster and in our agreement it said that we would agree on a price for whatever it was. So I told one price and I really don't even remember what it was. I want to say it's like 500 bucks and they agreed to it and then I just never got paid and I got ghosts it ever since and I still haven't got paid for that whether they use their not whether they use it or not. I don't know but I sent them the file. Yeah, so I guess that that is like one of those things like you live and you learn like I probably should have said in the file so I got paid but like I don't know. At the time you were like, they'll pay me for sure. Yeah, exactly because like it was like a very well-known and and I don't say at the time I didn't know that they were like that. They've kind of been like getting a bad reputation for not paying people like I had no idea I was like naive to that and you know now I the more you know, I guess yeah, totally there are a few Publications out there that are known for not paying their photographers so I would put them on blast but I I want to be that person and yeah, exactly. That's why would it doing the remain nameless? Yes. It sucks because like people are going to fall for it. It's going to keep happening, you know until somebody calls them out and I feel like should we call them out but I don't want you know, I don't want to be there. They don't get blacklisted to I don't want to get blacklisted. You know what I mean? But we all know you're out there. We know you're not paying your photographers so it so if you're listening to this pay your photographers guys, come on pay your people. If you tell someone you're going to pay them pay them. Come on. It's simple paper invoices pay your invoices. So who are some of your favorite bands that you've photographed also have are all to all-time favorite bands under oath and Devil Wears Prada, and I've been lucky enough to shoot both of their shows like multiple times under oath. Probably my favorite show I've ever shot. They played at this teeny teeny teeny venue. I want to say it's like maybe Cap like right before they released actually, I think it might even be on the release day for their most recent album erase me. So they played it was supposed to be like just like a I guess like some kind of radio event that where they were just going to invite like all these radio stations and play like this. Like, I don't know if it was going to be like acoustic or whether they were just going to play to like these industry professionals essentially and apparently they were just like, yeah fuck that. We're gonna somehow how like you had to go and wait in line and they gave out 200 tickets 200 200 like I remember their wristbands or what but I was at work and I literally like couldn't get off work until like a half an hour before the show. And so I had my friend go and she was able to get two wristbands and then I was able to go and like shoot the show and that was just like one of the one of the coolest things one of my favorite photos that were taken was from that show actually, but yeah, that was that was a huge one and then I've done stuff with I've shot Snoop Dogg before and that that was like that was like a huge thing because like that was like pretty early on in like my photo quote unquote career. If you want to say and going back to like the making the connections, I literally got the got the contact for that gig because I like the really added some dude on Facebook and he was he posted like photos from like Snoop Dogg and Wiz Khalifa and I was like, Yo, that's sick and we just like got to talking and he's like yeah, here's the contact and then I was able to shoot because of that like those little connections. So yeah, that was that was super sick the the under oath the super sick. I totally just blank and then I did it wasn't it was a show but it was more of like a nightclub type thing. I shot some stuff for fetty WAP the rapper and like that's not exactly like my my music taste but that was that was really sick. He was like super nice and just like really really accommodating and it was like in this just packed. I mean way way way over capacity nightclub and Like standing in line outside before and the dude in front of you had to buy a bottle service to get in is what it was because it was like sold out sold out. Yeah and the dude in front of me paid $1,500 cash to get in and I literally was like, yes, I'm a photographer. I'm supposed to be shooting for fetty WAP and he's like, okay, you're good bro did even ask for my ID. Nothing to do Pat me down. Like I was wearing like a suit. I was like wearing a suit and stuff but like it was it was sick and like yeah, I mean like obviously I He's actually working for him. So it wasn't like a big deal. But like it's kind of scary to like he just didn't even ask me any questions. But yeah, it was that was pretty rad to wow. You just got to stroll on in and just yeah, yeah. Sometimes that's how it works. You know, I talked to this girl Lindsay learner on the podcast a couple seasons ago and she ended up being the TM and assisting Watsky on a couple tours on warps and she met him just by like sneaky into basically she went through an open door and she was like, oh yeah Watsky was on stage and there I was and then I had a camera and then I met his tour manager and then a store manager. Gave me a job a couple of years later. It's crazy crazy. That's sick. Yeah, but that's awesome know sometimes you just gotta be in the right place the right time but definitely yeah, he's probably should have pat you down at least or like Checkers. Yeah. Yeah, like recently like like honestly like have some blues like this here to guards here. Like like, oh you got a photo pass your good and the one time I was like, no dude you need to checks me. Check me like that might that freaks me out because like just because I have a photo past doesn't mean that I don't have a knife or a gun or a bomb. I mean like you should still check me. I have a camera bag check to make sure that there's nothing in there. Yeah, exactly. Like like I could this could be filled with you know guns are Dynamite or what? You know what I mean? Like there's a thousand things that could be you should check me just because I have photo past doesn't mean that I'm not you know, like that shouldn't give me a free pass. I mean, yeah, they should just be more thorough. I I've also talked to like security guards on here and they they can't stress enough safety at shows and how Especially like other countries like in Europe thus their a bit more relaxed on like security and stuff. And so it's like I can't imagine trying to just you know, go on a tour in a foreign country and then they don't even do security at most of their shows. They're like, that's crazy to me. I would freak me out. Yeah. Yeah, it would freak me out like so much. Yeah. I'm I'm huge on safety, you know, especially when around crowds like I have like big crowd anxiety. It's like I got to know what's going on and like if we're not safe there's a huge problem, you know? Yeah. So yeah security guards. You should definitely be checking photographers bags that is a must because it's a bag at the end of the day. You know, what yeah exactly is the camera could be anything shit and there was actually like so I my dad was I work in a machine shop and there was a couple of times where I did get patted down and I had like a knife and like a box Her obviously, I didn't have bad intentions but like I was patted down and they still didn't catch that. I'm like to like, how did you not like this is like a big knife. Like, how did you not how did you not catch that? That's awful. It makes you think twice about it, you know? Yeah definitely. So what do you hope for your future your photography future like what are your plans and your goals? I would I would love to tour even if it's just like one or two tours like I would love to do that. And honestly, I want to I want to do more weddings and like a big goal for me. And in 2020 is working more directly with artists instead of like going through their PR and management like like that to sound cocky or anything, but I feel like I'm at the point now where I can like create. I can create what I want to create in just about any situation. So I want to be able to like make like it's one thing like shooting a show. Yeah, that's sick. Like I want to be able to like make art with these artists. Like I want to like have them be like, yeah, I got this idea. Let's like let's go out and do it. You know, like I want to like work more directly with them. So I hope to do that morning in 2020 and and Beyond between that and like I've been booking like International weddings to which is like super sick. I got one in Puerto Rico and then I just Going to Germany. So I'd like to like to travel more doing doing photos. Like it's kind of crazy like this is going off on a little tangent. Like it's kind of crazy. Like how many like rad things that has happened or like that I've been able to do in my life because of a like literally just a camera like I've been able to go to Hawaii. I've been able to meet so many friends like all these all these different amazing people in my life is all just because of a camera but yeah, so that was like a hundred tangent. But yeah. I just want to keep doing it as much as I physically can. It's a podcast podcast. They're made for tangents. Dude. You're supposed to go off on tangents. That's what makes these better. I've been like trying to not go off on a ton of fun because like you could ask me one thing about like, oh, yeah. What camera do you shoot with that? I'd be like, oh, yeah. So the weather today go totally off on a tangent. What is something you know now that you wish you knew when you started. Oh, that's a good question. I think when I first started I was very like skeptical about talking to other people. It shows like whether it be photographers are security guards or whatever now I do that all the time. I try to talk to everybody. I feel like I'm like a broken record repeating myself. Like it's all about the connections but like honestly like just talk to people like it's it's at the end of the day talking to people is not that hard. You never know like like how that's going to help you or how you could help them in the future, you know, like just make those connections. Aaron's I think is is huge and like honestly like you just gotta ask sometimes like like for instance. I was shooting Summerfest in Milwaukee over the summer and it was for publication, but they put me in direct contact with this country artist his tour manager. And after I was done shooting the third song I just texting was like hey, do you need anything else and it ended up being they let me shoot from stage the whole time and then I did like a quick portrait session and then Then they asked me about my availability for tour. So like sometimes it's literally just like about asking because I okay. What's the worst thing? They could have said the worst thing that he could have said that was no we're good. Like thanks for the photos like just asking and like being available making yourself available. It's like huge because sometimes they need contact. What if they don't have a Content like what if they don't have somebody on tour? They're looking for somebody, you know, just putting it out there and offering it and being like confident in in what you can do. I think we'll get you. So far absolutely, man, and thank you for that. That was a great answer to that question. It's my favorite question to ask all of my guests because the answers are always so insightful, you know, it's we learn a lot throughout our careers and it's nice to it's very inspiring to hear that kind of stuff. I actually have one more thing to add to that. It's just it sounds kind of ridiculous and probably like is it like what I should be saying? But like if you act like, you know what you're doing nine times out of ten people won't question you like there's been times where I've literally just pretended like I like I was supposed to be there but like II didn't have the proper credentials or whatever like physically on me. I was like shooting. Okay, so I was shooting the show a couple days ago and I had AA but for whatever reason the sticky came off of me and I Really just acted like I was supposed to be there and nobody said anything like like if you if you act like you're working and you're being like a professional for me at least nine times out of ten people are gonna like, you know respect you and like take your word for stuff. Yep. You're totally right. I did a show a couple weeks ago and I was supposed to have PhotoPass all the passes I needed. I was supposed to have everything but I ended up getting none of them look like like they didn't they didn't have them or like they were with this person or there were supposed to be at the end. I had to go to this gate and this gate and I was like, you know, what fuck this and I just like met the escort and I was like, hey, I'm here to shoot the show and I just got escorted everywhere, you know, and I mean if you're if you're working and you're acting like you're working and you know what you're doing then you're probably going to get you can going to get the job done. It's it's a lot about like how you how you hold yourself. Like if people look as you would like. Oh, this is Just you know some kid trying to see his new show with the camera. Like obviously they're not going to let you in then but if you like, hey, I'm here. I'm trying to do my job. Like just let me like, you know XYZ happened. I'm literally just trying to do my job. Let me do this like a my experiences. They've been pretty cool about that cool. So if people want to find you ask you questions higher you where can they go? What can they do? How can they get in touch with you? My socials are Rob Haberman h a b as in boy, ERM a n and In photo and yeah, that's and then on Facebook it just robbed haverman photography, and then my website is just Rob haverman.com pretty pretty easy. No branding just the name. All right. We are one step closer to episode 100. Thank you guys again for listening to this episode of project freelance. I truly appreciate you taking the time out of your day and night weekend commute. I appreciate you. Thank you for listening to project Finance without you there wouldn't be a Because why would I be doing this if nobody was listening to it why that would be the saddest? So thank you for listening to my voice every single week. I appreciate it. And I hope that this podcast helps you guys. I hope it helps you in some way and it has helped me and it's helped me Network and it's helped me build relationships with people that I never never thought. I would have relationships with so thank you guys for allowing me to do this every week and Eating me broadcast it into your ear holes. This is going to be on the internet forever. And that's crazy to think about, you know, I've done so much content. I've made so many things I've taken so many photos made so many videos I've written so many blogs like I've made so much music. I've done so many music covers, you know, I've done so many things on the internet and it's been I've been doing this since since I first got my space. Now I've been doing this forever. And so I think the internet is always somewhere that I will find myself at home. Even though I'm putting myself out there. You know it for the world to see you know, but I think it's that connection that I crave and you know, I wish that somehow we could all just meet up every week and do this podcast in person. I need to get out of the house more definitely so maybe in 2020, I'll do some podcasts with people in person and And yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens. But thank you for listening. I'll chat with you guys next week on Project freelance. My name is Kay and I go Neo, you can follow me at can we go Neo on Instagram and Twitter All My Links will be down in the description and I have a book out right now called No tracers and our Urban explorers diary. It's about abandoned buildings in the places I explore and it's got really cool photographs inside. So if you guys want to pick up a copy, that would be sick. It's really cool book. I'm really proud of it. So yeah. Thank you. Alright. Talk to you next week.
This week on Project Freelance I am so excited to have Rob Haberman on as a guest! Rob is a live music photographer and a wedding photographer who resides in Chicago. In this episode we dive into Rob's photography story, which began when he got a press pass for Vans Warped Tour. Like many others, Warped Tour was the place to be if you wanted to be a live music photographer, and in this episode you'll hear what Rob's Warped Tour experience was like and how it gave him the path to a career. We also touch on the mental health side of freelancing, which I think is so important to discuss. I'm so grateful that these guests are so open about their experiences and that they're willing to share them with this audience. I'm sure a lot of you also deal with self-doubt like I do, so I wanted to see if Rob had any advise on how to overcome that. This is quite the episode! 