Well, hello everybody and welcome to friends of the force. I am your host Brad Whipple and today on the show. We have a very special guest appropriately because we will be talking. Talking about the music of John Williams and the importance of his contributions to the Star Wars Universe. We are joined by composer Christy Kuru Kirstie. How's it going today? Hi going very well. Thank you so much for having me very happy and honored to have you on the show and thank you for your time. And we are recording here these Sunday before Thanksgiving. So it is a week full of many. Joyful events with family to come and just a lot of excitement is in the air and troughs. We are finally under a month left. Until the rise of Skywalker hits theaters, right? I have to look at my countdown and see what the official not that any of us are coming 24 days. Wow. Oh man. We are we are closing in and what we really want to do here at Friends of the force is cover the music of John Williams and really kind of send a love letter almost to his contributions and talk about why the music of Star Wars is as much of importance as anything else like directing and acting and story and mythology all those things. Because it is an entire package and without part of that package. It doesn't really work as a whole. I think and John Williams being one of the most legendary composers of all time, you know a career that spans five decades with five Academy Awards 50 Oscar nominations. He's the most nominated living person and second most nominated person in the history of the Oscars and he recently was nominated for the force awakens and his career began in 1948, which is crazy to think about it, son. He moved to Los Angeles and he was in the Air Force and went to Juilliard school and he worked at nightclubs and on recordings and became a studio musician. Yeah, and he just did so much and he started composing at the end of the 50s and I believe how to steal a million was one of his first which was a comedy with Audrey Hepburn. So his career is very tenured and how lucky we are to have his music with in the Star Wars universe and still to this day having such an impact. So before we get started Christie, could you give our listeners introduction to yourself and kind of why you're on this episode specifically sure. So I've been a Star Wars fan since I was 6 years old. So that's even before I even started studying music which I started about two years after that and hearing the music for Star Wars was what really kind of jump-started me into wanting to do film music. I've actually known since that age that that's what I wanted to do. It took me a little longer to understand that it's actually a job that people can study and learn how to You and then go do and for the longest time. I didn't realize that women did it all of my favorite composers were men and that didn't really mean anything to me until I was a teenager and I saw Rachel Portman win an Oscar and then it kind of clicked like oh like that's something like I could do this. I could actually do it instead of just loving this. Like I was a piano player and I was writing little pieces as a kid and stuff. So I ended up going on to study music in college and then I went for grad school to study film scoring and moved out to LA. Shortly afterward and my Star Wars fandom has been a huge part of my life that entire time, you know, I was there opening night for all the release of the special editions and then for the prequels and so far every one of the sequels and a couple of years ago. I kind of started getting into the fandom in a new way, which was through YouTube and Tumblr and the rail. Oh Phantom, of course and I started meeting people who wanted me to come on. Podcasts and talk about the music and I started a Blog where I was writing music metas about I started with the sequel Trilogy and ended up going on into the original trilogy and the prequels and my fandom just kind of came back to life in this really huge way after seeing the force awakens. Not that it ever left me, but it really like in that time period in between the original trilogy in the prequels. I don't really play video games or read Comics. So all I had was the movies on VHS and the extended universe You know what's called Legends now. I read every single one of those books until they were dog-eared in the covers falling, you know, I had my little action figures and stuff, but it's really the sequel Trilogy has created this new side of the fandom that I hadn't experienced before with all of these different creators from so many different backgrounds coming together to make podcasts and meta and art and music and all of the stuff and I kind of just got wrapped up in the in the excitement. That and in getting to share ideas with all these different people that I had never interacted with before so it's been really really wonderful and yeah, I am a film music composer out here in Hollywood. I've been working here for 13 years and some of the things that I've arranged music for written additional music for you'd probably recognize but a lot of my work as a composer is on independent film that a lot of people probably haven't seen but you know, I just putting one foot in front of the other and working my way up and I Had a pretty amazing past two years in that I got to do the Sundance Film music lab in 2018. So got to go up to Skywalker Ranch and stay there for today. That is amazing. Wow, amazing. And then this year I got to do the ASCAP film scoring Workshop, which meant that I was on the fox Newman scoring stage and nighttime when previously the musicians that were playing my scene for that recording session earlier that day they had been recording on the rise of Skywalker the same Wow, it was pretty amazing. And I actually saw, you know, some people some players that I knew from just other things that I'd worked on or other sessions. I'd been too and they know what a big John Williams fan. I am and so they were just, you know, obviously they can't say anything about it. But when I asked right, how is your past week been there just shaking their head in disbelief of you know, we get to do this we get to play on his Ninth Symphony. We get to close out this incredible unprecedented. Chapter in the history of film music and film in general and I saw some photos from the other night, which was the last official thing that they will ever read. John Williams will ever record from Star Wars. One of the increases did some pictures and you know, they've got champagne they've got cake and the look on John Williams is face is just you know, you can tell he's excited he's tired but it's mostly just you can see gratitude on his face that he is the person who got to record this entire right Andre. The music for this entire Saga spanning this 40-year period That's become so beloved to so many people worldwide. It's really truly one-of-a-kind and so special that we have him still. Yeah, and this episode comes at a perfect time. I'm glad you brought that up in terms of this was the final a couple days ago is the final piece of music. He'll ever record for Star Wars and I just appreciate how much of a John Williams fan you are and I'm just so happy to have you on the show with based on your background how passionate you are for for music composition because I Don't think I would you know want to talk about with anybody else because that's I mean you really know the ins and outs and you're definitely working very hard. It's great to see you even helping a lot of us in the the podcasting Community like what the force and and scavengers horror, you know writing their their theme songs for those podcasts which are great. So I'm super excited to talk about, you know, the impact of John Williams and Star Wars music and just really gush about why the stuff hits so close to home for us. So in terms of when you know, John Williams first got involved in Star Wars, he was actually recommended By Spielberg because he had worked on Jaws with Spielberg and at that time, you know popular music in the 60s and 70s were very much about jazz. And that was kind of the rage and Gary Kurtz who was the producer on the Star Wars films. He really wanted something that was more we called very it was very important to be a traditional romantic score and I think that really hits home as to why John Williams is music is so good and Star Wars It's because it's not it's not technically which is there something wrong with that but at least four stars, Wars which is a space drama, it's fantasy. I think a romantic score really fits well to hit home on a lot of the story beats and mythologies that were getting exposed to he talked about at least when he was scoring The Empire Strikes Back and I was watching this documentary from 1980 called Star Wars music by John Williams, and it was narrated by Antony hoarder. He said, you know, sometimes it comes very quickly and as an ice floe other times, I hold my head in my hand and think is it ever going to come and I think that's kind of insight into the struggles of Hosing and it's kind of like a writer's block, but it's so much. It's so much different having him direct those the music and the original trilogy. I mean what why when we sat in that theater and 1977 and the words the opening crawl popped on the screen, like why was it the music itself that really had as much of an impact as anything else. We were watching. Well, it's like you said, you know, this style of film music had really fallen out of fashion at that point the old school corn boiled corn gold or Steiner style of writing these big Epic. Romantic film scores with late motifs like Vagner and other influences from classical music because if you listen to his music, especially for Star Wars, there isn't so many influences on it from other types of film music. It's all classical music. So when I was doing that Workshop this summer, we were having our orchestration lessons with the great composer Bruce Broughton. He did the music for Tombstone and for all these other incredible like westerns and amazing films from the 80s and 90s. And he was breaking down like he would always use John Williams as an example breaking down how these different pieces of classical music and really influenced him. And a lot of the temp for Star Wars came from Gustav holst's the planets and you think there's a lot of videos that you know compare and contrast how John Williams took the inspiration from that tent and made it his own so audiences were sitting down to watch this film. And of course, there were all sorts of new filmmaking techniques being utilized. Ultimately. It's a western, right? A fantasy it's all of these elements of from our American culture in our American fantasy. And the way the stories that we've always been attracted to paired with this score that felt very Lush romantic and classical using these late motifs for different characters and situations and calling on traditions of classical music and just music that is extended back to when we originally started getting polyphonic music from Gregorian chants. So for example in the moment where Luke accepts the Call to his hero's journey when he goes back to his aunt and uncle's home and he sees that the Empire has already been there. And there's just these burnt out skeletons lying there as the force theme swells. We also hear the dese re in the background. That is the traditional chant that accompanied any sort of reference for death in our original culture of these monks and polyphonic music and it's been used over and over again in the history of film music to always represent these moments of death. Struction, it's woven in there along with the forcing which is one of the most iconic themes that he ever wrote. There's little touches like this here and there throughout the entire 40 years 9 soon to be nine film Saga that he created where you can see that Not only was he being influenced by the styles of these early film scores in the action-adventure kind of swashbuckling feel of them. He's also being heavily influenced by the classical composers that he studied and as you mentioned he went to Juilliard, I mean his chops and Is training and education or unparalleled so he is truly truly thinking on so many different layers and levels and we realized that really hit audiences right in their hearts as they heard these late motifs and started associating them with these characters that we've all grown to know and love so much for me. John Williams was like the first time I really learned that music can be the dialogue alone. I mean if you take all of the spoken lines out of Star Wars and you just leave that music in there you will still Gets what the movie is about without even hearing a single lick of dialogue, you know, and I think that's unique to this franchise in particular. I'm not sure many movies out there can truly do that. I mean I could think maybe like Howard Shore can do it with the Lord of the Rings. Yeah, because like, I mean that's like the only other thing I could even think of as a comparison to just pure genius on the part of a composer and you know, John Williams and this documentary he really said it was about supporting your creating the emotional atmosphere of the Film so for example, this documentary was about The Empire Strikes Back and he at they're spotting session where which is where you plan where music is needed that sort of thing. They were working on the carbon chamber scene and they called him Johnny onset and around the behind-the-scenes. I thought Solaria so it's just such a funny way call him that and he calls everybody baby. So if he was talking to you, he'd be like Bradley baby. That's how he talks to you. So you're telling me I'm Adam Driver showed up to a scoring session. He would say Driver baby, that would be uttered. He probably just say Adam baby. Yes. I'm sure and I'm sure Daisy at some point because he loves Daisy Daisy that's amazing. Well this so there is saying Irvin Kershner who was the director of The Empire Strikes Back. He said Johnny is quite Adept at finding the point of view for a scene in augmenting the emotion that's they're maintaining a long piece of music and getting all the variations without making it a Mickey Mouse where you can accent every little bump and every little crash and he says, you know, the music is the Log, and that particular scene the two people are an open conflict, but the music says what you're seeing is maybe conflict but I think they're falling in love and I thought that was really really great because again, if you take the dialogue out with a dialogue is indicating that there is conflict but the music is telling you something opposite telling you the true underlying narrative. That's that's happening in that scene. So and I think the force theme that you bring up on the you know, when he goes home and he sees his aunt and uncle burning that's the same exact composition that plays when A takes the lightsaber so it's almost like that hero's journey. It's when they fully embrace the call to action, you know, exactly that's when she accepts it. So it's the same piece that happens in both places and you know that whole idea of scoring what the audience can't see that is something that I learned in my film music training of score at you don't necessarily need to score the moment that the person's expression changes or the moment that there's a flicker in their eyes or the moment that their body turns your actually scoring the moment before for that when they make their internal decision and that's something that John Williams is really amazing at and he always is bringing something to it that you're not even aware of he's guiding and leading your emotions. He's guiding you through the scene and he's taking you on this journey and you know when you think about the one place in The Last Jedi were he and Ryan disagreed was of course the hand touch scene where John Williams had originally written something more ominous and more threatening and menacing because Obviously the character of Ray is John Williams is favorite character from the sequel Trilogy and he loves Daisy loves her performance. And so you can hear it in the race theme that he wrote which for a lot of people is their favorite new theme from the sequel Trilogy and one of their favorite things. He's ever written myself included and so agree with that. Yeah, he's seeing kylo still kind of as a threat to Ray. He's seeing still that this is something that we're not sure about but Ryan is saying no we've been through all of this progression for them through their four spawns and he's kind they're just sitting in front of each other right now completely vulnerable and they're reaching out and we need to believe his direct quote as we needed to believe in the romance, right? So that's why John Williams went in and changed that and said, okay. I see what you're saying made it so that it's much more questioning and unsure in them when their hands actually touch the force theme does swell. It's not any sort of reloj Love Theme yet, which I believe we're getting in 24 days. For steam because the force actually has a role in active role to play in all of the movies and especially in The Last Jedi. One of the biggest criticisms people have of that score is oh we hear the force theme too often and I don't think that that's a criticism. I believe that the force theme is actually commenting on the action and when you're hearing it, it's because even if it's on a person who doesn't have for sensitivity like quite often, we hear it underlying the speeches of people who aren't Jedi and don't have Force sensitivity. It's because the force is saying yes, this person needs to be on this journey. This person needs to have this happen. This is who were believing we want the resistance to win and the force wants their hands to connect the force wants them to come into balance because that's the only way that the force will be balanced in the Galaxy will be saved. So it's little touches like that. It's a little ways that we can take why the choices were made at these certain moments and understand the depth of understanding their and to think that that was the only thing that Ryan and John needed Change out of that entire long Masterpiece of a movie. I mean, that's incredible. I got to say I don't understand the criticism too much of too much force theme because that is such a beautiful theme. I'm like I can watch two straight hours of just the force theme and I'd be like, my heart would be swelling the entire time. I'd be like, oh, this is beautiful and there's a reason there's a thought out real for everything and yeah, I to me the Last Jedi is my favorite score that he's ever done. And yes, I still good. I am including the prequels and this a lot of people really love the prequels. Because there's so many huge bombastic moments and there's you know Duel of the Fates and there's the 500-piece master Corral and there's all this like really amazing stuff. There's Battle of the heroes. There's a cross the Stars there's all of this amazing material to work with but for me, he is at the height of his powers right now. He is at the height of his craft right now. I'm sure the rise of Skywalker were Take the Last Jedi his place as my favorite. He's had all that time in between the prequels and now to just get better and better and what Doing in The Last Jedi is so subtle and so layered and you can take every scene and dig into it. I've written quite long meta about several scenes within the movie and I'm working my way through every single scene talking about it because there's that I could devote the next year of my life to just breaking down every scene like listening to the score only version and talking about why it's so ingenious. So to me it really is the best that we've ever gotten from him because he's just at the peak of his powers now. Yeah, and he is truly giving Hang it at all. He is truly giving it his all as a final send-off to this thing that he's started 40 some years ago, you know and the fact that when these seagulls were announced and he was and he unveiled that he would be returning that was like a huge weight off of all Star Wars fans shoulders, you know, not that anybody else can't pick up the mantle because I think Michael giacchino, I think that is one of the most underrated Star Wars scores ever. I think that Rogue one is probably my one of my favorites. I don't personally for me. I know some people don't like it but John Powell, I think did a pretty good job was so low and even you know, John Williams worked a little bit with him and we're seeing now Ludwig goren said we see Ludwig gourds and is working pretty well on the the Mandalorian doing some great music there. So yeah. Yeah, it's there's just so much happening in the sequel Trilogy and let's talk a little bit about those two particular themes that I'm a very fond of is there a theme and the kylo theme those are the the central points of this Trilogy and I've heard them so much repeating over and over and over in different variations. And especially Kyla's theme Bend emption. It's happening. You know, I think we'll hear some sort of Bend emption theme and this in this new movie and get like a Ben solo theme. That's like my biggest. Hope for what's to come me too me too and not a lot of a lot of people have theorized that you know at the end of the first trailer we do here the DS array that I mentioned to you before but we hear it in a lydian major key. And that first interval Dada you could take that and go duh, duh, duh and here kylos bad guy Fein. So a lot of people heard that DSC right at the end of that trailer and went wait. Was that kylo steam in a major key. Was that a bent? And I you know, we immediately jumped onto Twitter Franklin and who is the world's foremost John Williams and Star Wars music Saga like encyclopedia. He is at Tufts. He's a full-time music theory Professor he knows Everything about Star Wars music and he was very quick to jump on and David Collins and a couple other music people and say no it wasn't his team. But I do believe that it is completely intentional that they did it that way to make you think about kylos theme and then have it resolved in this incredibly beautiful triumphant way. I believe that's a huge clue for Bend emption. So there's all kinds of Clues already hidden inside of both of their themes and of course kylo has to technically three themes and Ray has one. Broken up into three different parts. And so the way that those different things in different parts of the themes are used and the way that they are transformed and all of these different iterations and what we potentially could see in their eyes of Skywalker with what we know about the dark ray vision. Is that a vision is that real with Bend emption with the reloj theme? How is it how are these going to come together? Is it going to be something completely new or is it going to be a blend of parts of their themes but there's we don't know like there's no real way. Way of predicting the things that we do know are that there seems are very cleverly intertwined with similarities and it's also very cleverly intertwined with across the Stars. Yeah. So because the story of reloj is reverse on Iguodala, we do see parts of their themes being the reverse of parts of across the stars and and you know of talked about this on what the force and scavenger stored in a couple of their podcast and it's there's some amazing metas that we could link to your list. So they can read more about it, but it's all connected. It's all really well-thought-out. And so that's why I'm really excited to see what direction he ends up going in for a Bend emption theme for a reloj love theme and a lot of people think that the reloj love scene might just end up being the force theme a lot of people really do think that he might just keep that through line from the hand touch. However, I personally do not think that he can let John Powell have the last say on love themes because solo with lat And those closet and that amazing love theme for Hannah. Yeah, I think John's Williams is like okay nice job young and hold my beer. I cook. I think he's gonna come through with one more really incredible love for you to join Han Solo in The Princess and across the Stars. Yes, I would have completely hurt that I think he's really going to pack a punch with us and we've heard what two hours and 13 minutes of what he's recorded so far which and the music world. That's a lot, you know, the movies going to have it's Quiet Moments and I think that the overall film I think Two and a half hours that leaves about 20 minutes on scored. That's a lot of music that is a ton of of music to be scoring for this film treat. Oh my God, it's yeah when he first came back to the sequel Trilogy, they interviewed him and you know, he said when he was coming back to the force awakens. He said, you know, I've been able to use earlier material and develop new material that would coexist with it. So it fits back to again him making sure that the old stuff is feeling like a fabric of this of these new films and on raise theme. He said, you know, her theme has a musical grim. Her that is not heroic in the sense of a hero's theme. It's kind of an Adventure theme that maybe promises more than resolving itself in the most major triumphant resolutions. And he says he feels a lot of empathy for that girl. And then with with kylo, he says he approached it as an extension of Darth Vader in a way and he didn't want to get too close to it. But if you could convey in a shoot a few short notes like The Imperial March does this evil power strength and threat it needs to be something that you will that will hit you as accessible right away and the Fact that he really talks so strongly about those two themes to goes to show these are really two the two Central figures of this of this Trilogy. And Race theme is just so beautiful. It's full of so much adventure and mystery and and curiosity and Discovery and I think that's why when we first see her on screen and we don't know who it is quite at first but we just hear the slightest notes of kind of this hints of something something new and something undiscovered. I think that's really really hit a lot of people we were introduced to her. Yeah, and I love this quote where you know, he says that when he came back, he felt A Renewed Energy and a vitality and a freshness. He was really excited to dig back into this and to take the texture and the fabric of what George Lucas created but seeing how JJ Abrams was bringing it back to life for this new generation of fans and characters. Like, you know, I'm eventually going to show my kids Star Wars and release order but they've grown Up with you know, oh go pick out some cereal at Target. Oh might just today my son grabbed the box of cereal because it had a real on the front and he went to sleep last night in his kylo Ren pajamas, you know, they've really had these characters kind of immersed in their world of when we go to galaxies Edge. I'm sure that those are the characters that they're going to want to meet the most and when he talked about kylos theme here saying that there's a more ruminative part that's usually done softly. That's his, you know conflict theme. He said I don't think it portrays any Our weakness but possibly hesitancy. Like here we are done Williams giving us all the clues to Kyle has character that he's never been fully committed to being this evil badass that people write to be for so long and then his other bad guy Motif that's often strong. And that seems to be the embodiment of evil that he wanted it to be a relative to the Darth Vader theme but also something entirely different and yes, you really did achieve that so many times we hear - kind Play on a motif like that. It's kind of like a general Darkside motif. A lot of people tweeted me a couple months ago saying. Oh my God, have you seen this moment in The Phantom Menace where padme's ship is landing on Tatooine for the first time and we totally Here kylo theme and you go back and listen to it. And of course it is reminiscent of it, but that's an example of what me and Marie Claire have started calling the sandbox. Star Wars music like these different composers such as ludvig such as John Powell who gets to play in the sandbox of different harmonies and tonality and textures that John Williams created. So I very really strongly doubt that John Williams ever intended to link. Kylo seen to this. Random Moment In The Phantom Menace one Padme is right and you know, there's so many times you can go back and say that because in the beginning they didn't even know there was going to be a second film. So of course when When Darth Vader kills Obi-Wan and Luke says no you here Princess Leia's theme that's not for any particular reason. That's because it's a this amazing heart-wrenching big leap of the melody and it's beautifully orchestrated and he felt it was right in the moment. So not everything is hyper connected and therefore even super detailed but you know a lot of it really is so I think that everybody in our analysis there's some things that we can take and say, you know, I really think that This means something in this is connected and maybe it turns out to be true or not. Whether it's true or not. This is something that Felicia dub ski, she's known on Tumblr Israel musings and she's one of the OG like sequel Trilogy and analysts musically. She does this take on it where it says. It doesn't actually end up taking away from my enjoyment of analyzing it in this way. If it turns out to be not true not linked if the composer didn't intend that I agree with that and I also think it's really cool when it does turn out to be accurate. So, right I think that's the best part of like, you know that the iterative storytelling of Star Wars as you can watch new stuff and then go back to the old stuff what like you said whether or not it is intentional to find those moments where you're like, okay, here's something that maybe subconsciously John Williams is feeling about these characters 20 years ago. And now he's kind of getting that tickle again in his mind where he's like, okay, this is how I feel about this specific characters. That's why I'm going to write the music this particular way and then it unintentionally ends up mirroring something that came before or something sounds. Very similar. And in this case, it kind of makes sense because that ship landing on Tatooine. I mean now she is there Anakin is there, you know, there's still a huge gigantic age difference between them at this point, but now the two people who are kind of going to set off this terrible chain of events now, they're actually going to meet so that foreboding feeling and that Motif that is ends up being linked to kylos Motif that does actually make perfect sense in the Star Wars sandbox. So he's showing you is Han Solo blaster. Do you know which Han Solo's theme is great by the way, just saying. Yeah, one of the best really really happy that that John Williams and John Powell work together on that and that we got to hear that theme and yes, everything their relationship and partnership just seems so beautiful and it actually saw Powell tweeted the other day that he's he was in a scoring session for a movie. I believe it's called Call of the Wild and John Williams stopped by wearing his trademark black turtleneck. Oh my gosh my to see how John's recording session was going. They've obviously stayed close friends. And yes, and I got to meet Powell also as part of the workshop that I did this year. Oh, that's great an afternoon in his Studio. This is you know, for a lot of these meetings that we had with the big composers were not actually allowed to relay what we sat and talked about because they were thankfully very Frank and open with us and really gave us a lot of insight into their working lives. But everything that he had to say about the experience of working with John Williams was just you know, anything that any of us would say About getting to work with someone like that and right Revere so much he was so grateful and so happy and had obviously gained so much from The Experience. Yeah and speaking more to and just like the power of music and and why again, I don't I truly don't think Star Wars would be the same without Williams's score. He set the precedent and I think it invaded Our Lives because of it obviously moving forward we won't have him anymore. So there's going to be a lot more people filling those roles whether it's maybe a John Powell again, or maybe Kevin kiner gets to step up and do Live-action stuff maybe Gordy hob gets to come in from the video games. Yeah. So there's a lot of good stuff that could happen. And I think he really set the bar of Where Stars music needs to be and he was at an academy event back in 2014. Again, this is before the force awakens comes out and the event was called behind the score the art of the film composer and this was moderated by Tavis Smiley and John said, you know music is words that can't be spoken unites entire people's entire religions its power. Is really great. I don't think any of us fully understand how it truly works and he talked a lot about how you know, there's universalities and language how some languages sound similar to others or have similar tones and inflections music is very much the same there are tremendous universalities and language as he says and he Compares it to sculpting where you have a stone and you keep taking chunks out of that stone the figure out what's underneath and you might not know what you're going to find. So going back to earlier how you know, he can sit there and have that sort of music. Composers block where he doesn't know what he's going to find by watching these films and scoring them, but eventually he gets to something that can speak to so many different cultures and religions and people around the world which is why I think Star Wars is so revered and accepted into our world. And what do you what do you think of a quote like that in terms of like there are universities and music and it can it can speak to so many different yet societies. I love that quote so much and you know obviously is writing in a very Western tonality. Why he is writing in a very classical romantic film music language. So I think that the key to why it resonates is because the overall story of Star Wars and the mythology is a human story. It doesn't belong to any one culture. Every single culture worldwide has the Adolescent becoming an adult has the hero's journey has people going through these experiences has War has family has Pain and marriage and love going wrong and love not being able to save someone when you thought it could so his music even though he is writing from a very specific tradition because he is so Adept at tapping into the emotional layers and bringing those and heightening them. He has been able to cross the boundaries of language and culture and generationally keep everybody so invested in the story through the use of late motif, And being able to associate a theme with a character a theme with a situation a type of instrumentation with a location. He really has such a deep understanding of the story that everything that he's written for it enhances it and has everybody listen and view it through the lens of their own upbringing and everything that they've been through everything that they've experienced. I think that it is I can't think of anybody who does it as well as he does even when he's scoring process. Checks that aren't Star Wars when he's moved on to one of my absolute favorite scores that he's done kind of in recent years is for a movie called The Book Thief which is obviously like a World War II Holocaust eras movie based on a really heartbreaking book and what he has on display. It's actually quite a deceptively simple score, but that's an incredibly painful era in historical lens to be telling the story from and I mean, Course you could date this back to his life changing groundbreaking work on shindler's list as well. I think that he is just able to get to the humanity of every story and tell that story through his music adding on top of that to just the performances and the mythology of Star Wars. It's like the perfect storm. You know, Star Wars was meant to come into our world and you know, John Williams is music just completely elevates us to a different existence a different level of you know, like Nirvana. Going to that theater and you're just completely captivated and you can completely forget anything that's happening outside in the world. And I think that's why it's so easy to escape into this galaxy far far away and why so many people it's not it's more than just a movie. I mean it is a movie at the end of the day, but when you watch it, it captivates you and it speaks to you because of the music the music is speaking to you in a language that you don't really know necessarily how to translate but it just it feels you what the butterflies it it gets your pulse. A racing you might start to sweat a little bit and you're like I there's something happening to me right now. I don't know what it is. And that's why he says in this quote, you know, I don't think any of us fully understand how it really works. It's almost like the force, you know, yeah, I think that music is the force in real life, you know, the composer like me and some of my friends and colleagues can go sit and watch these movies and whoo you did you hear that bassoon. Did you hear that Slinky bassoon? And he combined it with the double bass and then I think there's you know, we're analyzing the orchestra. Yeah, we're sharing it and saying, you know, how did that particular orchestration evoke this particular emotion, and how can I work that combination into my own film scoring and trying to create something similar to that like we're hearing it like that somebody who's not necessarily trained in music and orchestration isn't going to be able to pinpoint exactly what instrument or combination was used. But they know that it's hitting all of those emotional places and it's taking them where they need to be to absorb the full impact of this scene. And everything that went into it the dialogue the acting the directing the lighting the cost of the IB when I went to my first film set of a film that I was scoring and I really understood how much work goes into this and how when somebody pans a movie as bad or I didn't like it or it sucks, you know, the amount of people who worked on that for so long and put all of their heart and Blood Sweat and Tears into it. I mean every movie is a miracle every movie is an absolute miracle that it never happens from the smallest. Low-budget Indie to the rise of Skywalker. Yes. So I love that about filmmaking. I love that about film music and to me there's nothing better than sitting in the theater that main theme Fanfare comes on you reading the crawl you're getting yourself in the zone and then the first notes of his score begin and it's an unknown score for Star Wars that you haven't heard before. I mean, this is the last time we're going to be able to do that with John Williams. Like I did the other day. I cried thinking. Being about this because it just draws you in in such a way that like nothing else even the imagery even whatever seen it starts out on nothing else draws you in then more than hearing. Where's he going with this now? Where am I going from that familiar main theme and opening crawl. What world am I going into are Am I who am I with right now? You know, it's I think that's to Y at least for me I start crying during the opening crawl every time I see the Star Wars movie. I actually cried when I see the lucasfilm when I see the yes. Like that, that's when I start. Yeah, and that moment of silence where you get galaxy far far away before you see Star Wars. That's like the one moment you're like. Okay. This is it. This is before everything starts. I think at least in this December when that happens. I'm like, this is the last first for me of a Star Wars film. Like I know there will be more Star Wars but it's just not going to be the same. You never know what could happen it for all we know lucasfilm could shut down in a year like you just never know what could happen, you know, so you got to take every moment like it's the last and this might be the very very very last time we ever have that just moment of pure Bliss where it's like what's going to happen next and it's just I can't believe it's happening and I've haven't gotten too emotional about it. I think because I'm like trying I'm in that stage of denial where like, it's not the last one, you know, it's not happening. But like I know when I step in that theater and I sat down in my seat and the lights go down at something and something's gonna happen. I hit my head, you know, I'm going to snap the way that I'm the way that I'm trying to think about it is like, okay so we know the Disney is the most profitable company on the planet. At that has ever existed. So yes that Star Wars is like a huge part of their IP. And so the way I'm consoling myself is that in about 10 years. We will get the next journey in the Skywalker Saga because the I think that the rise of Skywalker is going to end showing us that the generation will continue writing that literal children or re just being pregnant or the two of them just flying off together. I think that it will symbolize that the Skywalker's are going to continue the I think in 10 years when this little guy is 15 and doesn't want to hang out with His mom anymore. I'm trying to get him to go see those movies with me. However, John Williams will not be scoring them. Right the next iteration of the Skywalker. Saga will not have his music. It will have his themes of course, but he will not be doing it and that part I cannot avoid this sadness. How can I can console myself in so many other ways that especially because the Mandalorian is so good, especially because I loved solo so much and like so all this animation that we're getting like Distance is incredible Rebels is incredible. Like I'd the future of Star Wars is so bright and so beautiful and amazing and like deep and gorgeous. That II don't get too sad for too long, but when it comes to Jacobs when I think about this is the last movement in his Symphony, I do I do tend to tear up a little bit on that. Yeah, and you know to I mean this it's a little morbid but you know, when we when we get to a point potentially where he passes, you know, his legacy is going to carry on forever. Ever and I you know, I think he's just made such a huge contribution to the film world and our world in general. I mean, his scores are literally used for the Olympics, which is one of the most human things ever, you know, losing winning overcoming the odds like it speaks to like athletes around the entire world. That's why it's used for that specific events and just everything he's done has had such an impact and I would I would venture to say I want to see if you agree with me. Okay, so obviously when you think about who the Most famous and well-known and most performed composers are worldwide. Okay. So we're talking on the level of Mozart. We're talking about Beethoven. We're talking about Bach we're talking about all these different composers and you go up to an average person on the street. Let's say we're in like Iowa, and we're also a somewhere in France and were in somewhere in Japan and we're somewhere in Australia and we're somewhere in Egypt were all over the world and we walk up to an average person and we say hey, can you hum something by Mozart or can you Um something by Beethoven probably quite a few people will be able to go. Oh boats are dead dead dead dead dead or they'll say oh - you know, they'll be able to do right. I guarantee you that you go up to every single one of those people again. And you say hey what a Star Wars sound like they can go bubba bubba bubba. Bubba, or you can say hey, what is Jurassic Park sound like or what does Indiana Jones sound? Like what does he do? I truly think so how many people are alive today? There's like seven billion people. All right. I truly think that John Williams has been heard and beloved by more people than all of our composers whose work we've had for hundreds of years. Yeah. I might be totally wrong in this judgment and this assessment but I think that he is the most well-known and beloved and most listened-to composer of our entire musical tradition and I believe every word that remain that way and that he will live forever. That's what I tweeted the other night when I saw this scoring sessions, Eat that they were doing the last bit of Rise of Skywalker music on that evening. I tweeted out the story lives forever and you will live forever. He has a immortality in a way in a way that I don't think any other composer has an especially because you know, they've all of these other ingenious composers that we've had over the past hundreds year hundreds of years of musical tradition, their music is certainly used in film quite often, but this is another level of how his music is. Sensible to all of these classic iconic stories that are beloved for all time and are you know continually watched over and over again by new generations the peak of that to me being Star Wars gosh, I guess me emotional thinking about it. I'm like, oh god. Well, let's talk about you know our favorite moments from from John Williams and this this Academy event that he was out five years ago Tavis asked him. Do you ever have those moments where you think quote? I'm gonna kill him with This one and John says let's put it this way. There are moments where I'm more secure than other moments. So, you know, he's very humble about the way that you know, those mic drop moments of music. So what have been some of those moments for you and Star Wars in particular where you he just went somewhere that completely wrecked you and you're like, wow, I did not think he was going to take me to that plane of existence and here I am and my seat quivering and shaking and crying like all the rest of the emotions like what was that for you? I have three I have three examples one from the original trilogy one from the prequel trilogy in one from the sequel Trilogy. And these are by no means top of the list. These are just the ones I'm choosing to reference right now. So for the original trilogy, it's from Empire Strikes Back and the queue is called the asteroid field so good. That moment of them flying through that estimated dad dad dad dad and asteroids flying by and Leia freaking out and threepio saying, you know losing his mind in the back and hon just like Han and Chewie expertly piloting through it. And then the way the music when they flip the Falcon up and go down into the cave and you heard the French horn, but Bubba Bubba as it goes down, right right that blew my mind when I was a kid, I would rewind that until I had almost worn the tape out and then Soon as I was older and I was able to get copies of the score. I started out collecting piano Arrangements of his music and then as I got into high school and college and grad school, I started actually collecting the orchestral scores and that is still a cue that I sit down with even though I've been studying it for like 20 years. I sit down with that and I follow along in the score and I'm noticing new things every time it is a purely ingenious piece of music and it fits the action of the picture and the emotions so perfectly and it showed up in Solo. And they had her if rise of it and so alone I was crying. Yeah. Yeah. It was so great. So good the best call back in Solo. And then I remember being in the theater on opening night for Attack of the Clones and Padme Anakin are standing there in the little cart being pulled out with their hands bound and being pulled out into the arena on Geonosis to face, you know, probably certain death. If they can't get their weapons back and you know, say what you will about the chemistry between these two actors in the dialogue that they were given it's an amazing moment where they have their like full profession of love and we've heard little hints of across the Stars throughout the movie This is the first time we hear the full fledged beautiful like fully orchestrated swelling version of it and just that iconic shot of them silhouetted and they're kissing as they roll out slowly into this Arena and across the stars is just blossoming in this incredible way. Lost it. Then sobbing couldn't handle it. I love that whole sequence. When all the Jedi show up. I mean that gets me out us every time and they're all getting into their battle forms and stuff. And one of my friends one of my oldest friends actually just randomly texted me like a year ago. He had just been thinking about this and he's like, you know, just one thing I can't understand is how were the So many Jedi in that Arena and like how did they all get killed? Like it can't they use the force and I'm like dude they were using the force. They were completely overrun by droids and bite, you know, these those gno scenes with been like all of this chip was coming at them from every angle and you can only use the force to deflect so many Blaster bolts like you can only use the force like so and your lightsaber so much like of course ended up getting slaughtered like the original Jedi Temple got taken out just by Anakin and the bunch of Clone Troopers. So like relax anyway, I love that part and then from the sequel Trilogy, I wrote this whole essay on the spark. The spark is one of from The Last Jedi from The Last Jedi from the starting moment of Leia sitting down and saying the spark has gone out to Luke walking into their moment together to him walking back out and facing down the entire first order with a laser sword. It is unbelievable the layers of meaning and Musical reference and instrumentation and rhythmic and just everything that he has going on in that single queue all the callbacks and all the new material being woven together. That's probably one of my absolute favorite parts of the sequel Trilogy. And yes my jaw on the floor the first time I saw that in every subsequent time, I like the way you went with that. So we got original prequel and sequel Trilogy. I'll give you mine. So the original trilogy I really, you know, I think I have to go with you. The asteroid Field chase is just one of the most unbelievable pieces of music I've ever heard in Star Wars and when I when they release like one little clip from Solo I remember before it came out and I was like, oh like this just a cool little clip. I'll watch it and you hear that. I was like, oh my God, I was like they're going there. Yeah, so when you're sitting in the theater and solo and I'm waiting and the Kessel Run Chase starts solos. One of my favorite Star Wars films and is so good. So good. It is so underrated. I know I completely agree with you and when he goes in there and the music's kind of ominous and you start seeing your like You know, he can't see out of the cockpit and almost sudden the asteroid start coming at him. I'm like, I don't know if this is like an asteroid theme or the Millennium Falcon theme. I can't tell what theme this really belongs to but to me it just belongs to the theme of Han Solo's about to pull an unbelievable stunt theme. That's that's what's about to happen. So some of the best scoring I've heard I would say besides that just to not repeat you I would say an honorable mention is Cloud City when they escaped when you The you know, I do do do do do do. Our to shoot the smoke and they're running on the platform shooting is going back and forth at such a high stakes moment. You're on the edge of your seat. You want them to escape Luke's he's in huge danger right now. You're like, I hope they don't get in this much danger to like there's just so much riding on them getting out of there right now. That's one of my favorites for the original trilogy as well. I can listen to that all day and it was definitely Empire Strikes Back was how I got through college studying and Yeah, all that prequel trilogy the emulation seen I think is very often overlooked but it is it is truly. It feels like something that would have been in like a Shakespeare play. I feel like almost and the amount is overshadowing going on and just yeah creepiness and the unsettling this yeah. I love it. Yeah, and it's just it's the theme of the downfall of Anakin Skywalker. It is the death of Anakin Skywalker. That's what plays over his death. They are. With you on Revenge of the Sith. Absolutely it is. Yeah credibly painful and heartbreaking. Yeah, it brings out some of the best acting from Ewan McGregor especially and leaving him there to die on that Hill is just couldn't do very very passionate off. Yeah. Yeah, so that to me you do hear a hint of that to I've noticed in the crate sequence when the door when they're about to crack the door open you actually hear hints of the emulation scene, which is one of my favorite parallels between the prequel in the sequel Trilogy and another instance of where the hosts are the desperation and the feeling of Destruction and death and suing upon this group of Heroes. It's calls back to that death of one of the Republic's own Heroes and now it's happening again history was repeating itself. And I think that's why that theme kind of plays into that sequence when the door blows open. And it's also an A Moment In The Last Jedi where you know, the chorus is being used. It's actually used very sparingly throughout the Last Jedi. We don't hear it too often. The prequel scores are very heavy on the coral aspect. Yeah, and so that's another way that they're calling back is by using the coral. And orchestration during that moment and then at the end when raised lifting the rocks and everything, so I know that they're on the rise of Skywalker there is going to be more use of Chorale and choral music than there was on The Last Jedi. So we have that to look forward to that is going to be amazing and now speaking of the sequel Trilogy. My favorites is crates when the Millennium Falcon flies in to the battle and you hear like did an antenna and then it goes into Ray's theme as well. And then it goes back. Back into the theme that we hear on the Tie Fighter attack from a New Hope, which is also in Solo. I'm like so low is so underrated. It's so great at that score in the Kessel Run is brilliant. So again that that that theme on crate and just seeing the visual imagery of this red planet and Chewbacca pulling all the stunts to save the resistance and it's just such a heroic moment for him. Yeah, especially and we gotta get such a great call back. He really needs props for the way that he piloted the Falcon through those mines on crate. I mean you really like Chewbacca needs all the Ops like I really hope that he I remember one of the first things that my brother asked me when we finally watched a new hope. I mean, I'd been watching it over and over again and then when we got a no copy of it at our house, my brother's turns to me and he's like, where's Chewbacca's metal? And you know, I know that there's been many explanations now for why he did not get a medal at the end of a new hope when everyone was getting rewarded. I want to see Chewie get all the medals. Okay, so we have ditched the extended Universe. We are not following that cannon into Dies in that Cannon I want none of that. I want chewy being rewarded. I want him. Yeah family. I want him just living the rest of his life like glowing the beach of his rewards. Yes, drinking margaritas, you know, and what keeper me get a shorts just kicking back and enjoying a well-earned rewards like and chewy has become like the spiritual father to this group of people now because they've lost Han and they've lost Luke and I really want to see him get his do because made sure. Tobacco and Rea really saved the day of the Last Jedi. And also I'm there to be a scene with redeemed Ben solo and chewy, I want to see that I agree. I want you know, there's I feel like there's almost too many things. I want to fit into this two and a half hour long movie. But I also trust the storytellers and the filmmakers to the point that I know that we will We Will Be So Satisfied and I trust John Williams to know that we are going to walk out of there with a score that we will have joy. Analyzing for years and years to come. Yes. Well as we begin to close out the show, I got to say the one thing I think could be could truly Elevate me to a new plane of existence is somehow have been solo flies the Falcon and we get either that asteroid theme feel that asteroid field theme playing as he's trying to maneuver through first order enemy Fighters. He's smiling and he's staying so long things and Chewbacca's there in the seat if you're wondering why raise not fighting maybe she's hurt. It's up to Ben solo to fly. Why the Falcon and get them to safety I would just I would literally I would I would just melt honestly, I would melt onto the floor and be dead like I would just I need that what if he's like what if he's like flipping switches and going come on baby keep it together. Like what if he is like so little lines like I will I will melt I will also join you as a puddle on the ground. Yes. Yeah. It's really which really is the best time to be a Star Wars fan. We have so much to Love in This franchise and I want to close it out with a comment from you, you know. But with John Williams leaving for you, what is the future of the franchise look like what do you want it to look like without John Williams. And and what kind of hope I think hope is the most important word in Star Wars. What do you hope for for music in Star Wars in the power of John Williams to to live on so I think that one of my biggest hopes has already been realized in ludvig score for the Mandalorian, you know, obviously, we've only gotten three episodes. But one of the things that I've noticed about his work is there are direct homages to John Williams. There are direct homages to other composers that are influencing him due to the genre of the show right ennio morricone for being kind of Western hayasaka for it being more of a Kurosawa Samurai Vibe. Like there's all of these different influences on him, but he is honoring the tradition of Star Wars music. Well still telling the story through his own voice and I feel that that is a through line with all of Composers that we've got whether that's Kevin kiner on the Animated Series whether that's Powell whether that's Jackie know whether that's Joel McNeely and Gordie hob and Stephen Barton and all the composer's who work on the video games. I think that they will continue to hire people who know how to play in the sandbox who know the mythology who understand the story who Revere John Williams and his work on the Saga who will bring elements of that and influences into that. I mean, I did it Myself, I recently scored a series about women in the fandom called looking for Leia and I was able to rearrange some John Williams themes and also write my own themes in my own score for it. And what I really tried to do was honor of the his themes and honor his influence and let that shape the way that I wrote in trying to explain how meaningful this story is for fans in the stories that we don't often get to hear my hope. Is that going forward they will continue to make the type of decisions that they've already made hiring these composers who know how to bring their own voice and know how to bring their own story telling but truly are fans of Star Wars truly are fans of John Williams know what it means to be able to follow in his musical lineage and really just treasure being in this world of Star Wars and really I mean, I'm going to be a little bit selfish here and say that I just as we have Deborah Chow directing the third episode of the Mandalorian and blowing everyone away, and I'm sure we'll see see some other voices and directors. I'm not trying to be selfish here. Like if it's me or if it's any one of my other female colleagues, I would absolutely love to see a female composer come touch the official Star Wars musical. Yeah time, you know, not necessarily even because I think that there's any sort of quota to be filled. I don't work that way. However, the way that I do work is that I believe that you know women should be in the room. I want to be in the room. I want to have my demo in the room. Find the right person that is going to be picked to handle the story. Then I want to be that person and there's so many incredibly talented of my friends and colleagues coming up right now getting more and more high-profile work and working on bigger and bigger things the time is so right to bring that voice and that storytelling in the same way that they did with Deborah the same way that they did with Victoria Mahoney being JJ's first assistant director. Yeah, right Walker. I can't wait to see what her influences on the film so Oh, that's that's really my take on it is that I trust them so implicitly because everybody that they have brought on so far has blown me away with what they bring to it. Yes sound to the level of galaxies of Adventures the Star Wars rollout series The all this all the little animated series that I watch with my kids the music for that. I mean, they're not working with huge orchestras. They're doing it all inside the box, but it's also Star Wars. It's also well done. And I think that are you agreeing with that? Yeah, he agrees. He said You know, so I think that I place my full trust in them. My demo is ready and waiting. I'm ready. So I'm just, you know working every day as hard as I can to potentially get in the room someday. Yes. Well, you know what? We'll keep our fingers crossed here for you a Christian, who knows maybe someday when you're the big composer on OB 1 season 2 or something crazy like that, you know will be saying oh she was on Friends of the force a couple of years ago and she's she's the best and she's been working hard for it. So I one more anecdote for you real quick. I love anecdotes when I met John Williams, so yeah, it is actually yes. I'm telling a story about you right now. It was actually leaving a year after I had had this little one so I was still pretty sleep-deprived and very emotional and my friend who is a really good friend of John Williams had arranged it so that I could meet them and he had been spent the entire day working on the force awakens. This was May of 2015 and as I'm being driven up to meet All my emotions are going crazy. I'm starting to cry like a soon as I visually saw him in the distance. I started to cry and my friend was like just Qbert your brother would pull it to go our can't bring you up there like this. So I went I got the tears out of the way and we rolled up to talk to him and he was the sweetest kindest the best way I can describe him is that he is sparkly. He has a sparkle in his eyes and he has a very alert very spry sort of vivacity to him and he was Cuz I didn't I didn't necessarily want to just fall over fawning over him and telling him how much he meant to me. So we actually ended up talking about people that we knew and common and different orchestrators that he'd worked with one of his main orchestrators that he worked with for years is Conrad hope and I had met Conrad at an event and we talked about all this other stuff and then we start talking about family and life and he was just so gracious. And so kind of when we went to take a picture. I kind of started to melt down again. You just had his hand on my shoulder. Just like patting my shoulder like it's going to be okay like comforting me because I was melting down in his presence like yeah any anytime you see him interact with fans. Even that woman whose drove her son to his house and her son got out of the car and started playing Star Wars and yes came out. Yeah, like he's at his home. He's trying to relax like even that he came out like so gracious and so kind he's just the epitome of professionalism. He's the epitome of Genius. He's just he's human of course. Everyone is human. Everyone has their flaws everyone puts their pants on one leg at a time. Like you can't deny that as well. But just the reputation that he has and the way that the players who play for him are so honored to be in his presence, even though he drives them hard and those Orchestra recording sessions even though he knows exactly what he wants and he pushes for it. He's just his like she'll not come again. That's definitely what I'm trying to say. I feel honored that I got a chance to meet him and to we're just all so lucky that we've been given Skiff and I'm really looking forward to talking to you again after the rise of Skywalker so we can flail over the score and discuss and this has been really really great. I would definitely love to have you back to talk about the music and really dive into it. And again, I think like you said earlier you hit the nail on the head. His music is Immortal. He is Immortal and he will never leave us no one's ever really gone. I think is for him that I can apply so Christie. Thank you so much for coming on Friends of the force today. It was such a pleasure having you and I'm so glad we were able to make this work. Gout so where can our listeners find you and some of your work and and what do you have coming up that you'd like us to know about so I'm on Twitter at Christie underscore Kuru. You can find my blogs on Tumblr. It's enjoy all need. Nothing - blog at tumblr.com chose that name when I was a lot younger don't remember why it was deep and meaningful to me at the time in my early 20s. Now, I've just decided to keep it my website Christie crew.com and looking for Leia is going to be coming out very soon. Probably the project that I want to recommend the most to your listeners as it is a really incredible Star Wars story about fans and women in the fandom and how you know started out very early with the original fanzines and all the cosplayers and creators and animators and Droid Builders. I can't reveal the exact details of where it's going to air yet. But as soon as I can I will tweet it and announce it you should be able to watch it and stream it very soon and it's just a really incredible project and will really make everybody. Smile and tear up a bit and yeah, that's that's probably the biggest one. I would want to mention. I'm definitely very much looking forward to that documentary and make sure if you're listening go follow that documentary on on Twitter again. It's looking for Leia and make sure you follow Christy now as for here at front of the forest, make sure you give us a five star review wherever you listen to the podcast and we can find us at friends of force on Twitter and Friends of the force on Instagram. Send us an e-mail at Friends of the forest podcast at gmail.com and consider joining our patreon at Patreon.com slash Friends of the force again. Thank you to all drinian Rose Neal Lowery real form boy Chris from Kentucky Michael Condon and T our patrons. And lastly. We are a part of these Star Wars escape pods Network, which is promoting positivity and Star Wars fandom. So Christie, thank you. Once again for coming on. This was such a lovely discussion and I think we really got to the heart of Star Wars music here on Friends of the for so can't wait to have you back again in the future as for all of you listening until next time. We're all one. With the force we are all friends of the force and May the force be with you always.
Join host Brad Whipple (@bradwhipple) as he sits down with Christy Carew (@Christy_Carew), a Canadian-American composer for film, TV, advertising, and multimedia. On Episode 25, we talk about the power of music in Star Wars and tackle why John Williams' score has touched the hearts of every fan across the world. We speak to the universalities of music, how it can set the emotional atmosphere of a scene, why Williams has achieved immortality, and gush over some of our favorite musical moments in each trilogy. 