Hey there, this is Auntie. Welcome to the podcast today. I had the honor of talking to one of my all-time favorite photographers. Someone whose work. I look up to four years. His name is Andrew Kearns and he has been a YouTuber for a while and he has created a large following online sharing his amazing photography and videos. If you're not familiar with his YouTube channel or histogram. I highly recommend you just have a quick look if you have a chance before listening to this episode just so that you have an idea of his work because I think you really enjoy it. And yeah, I recently came across one of his. His latest videos where he discussed a lot of changes going on in his life and he mentioned how he got into stoic philosophy. So in that moment, I just sent him an email and he agreed to be on the podcast, which was awesome. And here we are right and yet in this episode we discussed a lot about Andrews introduction to stoicism his experience. We also touched topics such as that the downside of online success social media has something culture and what it does to our ego sometimes so we seized him everything. Philosophy and how to apply it in their lives as well as the advantages of using Philosophy for your creative projects and your creative life, right? So yeah Andrew also mention how he's extensional crisis and something he was going through he was struggling with his existential crisis help him gain Clarity and how he says it's not necessarily a bad thing and it's good to learn from those moments of you know, when you're down and you feel like nothing's gonna get better soon. But yeah, I mean if you've been a fan An Avengers work maybe if you're ready know about him. It's awesome to have you here such an honor to have you here. And yeah just want to really thank Andrew for all his honesty throughout this conversation. It really felt like talking to an old friend. And yeah, if you've been following Andrew, I believe this is a great update on his life and I believe there's a lot of good advice for creators and people who want to follow their passions in here. So yeah, we discuss philosophy creativity everything in between. But yeah that does about it and let's just get into it. So I really hope you enjoyed this interview and yeah here Welcome everyone this empty. I'll get the time flies and I'm here with Andrew and you can introduce yourself real quick. Hey guys, this is Andrew Kearns. I'm 25 years old living in Everett Washington, when know anything else favorite color is blue. Actually, it's Cerulean. It's very specific. So we're just really it's later doctors like it's like probably a little bit lighter a close close. Oh, sir on the way the teal but not very feel like it's like just get the Crayola crayon box and this color then there's no big coat. Do you know the code of the color? Um, no, just Google it like Google search image Google image search Crayola Cerulean crayon, and that's the shade because there's like other like cough shades of Sir Ian. It's the Crayola crayon. I'm very specific right? It's about that. That's who I am. That's what about that wraps it up. Thank you for being here. Okay, so a bit of an introduction just you know, like kind of like why your approach and everything like I have been watching your I just told you this building. I've been watching your videos for years since you started and yeah, man, you've been an inspiration to me and right now you said you'd 25 I had no idea that they were older than me. I mean not way but I'm 23. I always say years the other role model. So feel like a lot of the people that come from like Instagram and YouTube are like usually a little younger like Hey there, either they don't they're not really my age. I feel like they're younger or older. They're like 30s like around Casey were Casey neistat is or like like 19 or 20. We're like, whoa, you're really young. Like what the heck like, yeah. I feel like it's a common kind of mid outlier range. Let's go. But yeah, okay. I've been a backward. So what do you do? What are you passionate about Olivia stuff? Yeah, so I'm currently I just recently started working for a company. Moment doing so making for them they used to and I guess they still make iPhone lenses and they're great company and then prior to that I was doing freelance for five years and then just doing photo and video work and in the midst of that I did YouTube Vlogs as well. And now I mean, I still do all that and pretty much it's like kind of not like necessarily as much work, but excuse me, not as much work, but Or not as much like job stuff because I work a full-time job now but more so the more so the just for fun now it's but it's been fun to like have it all back as my own and just like be photographing for fun again. So yeah, it's kind of what I do. That's awesome too, you know, like people that listen to the podcast and stuff. We've been talking a lot about so he sees him like that the ways you can affect our lives and what I'm really interested is kind of like Any creativity and philosophy right and how they both work together? And yeah, like for me I studied filmmaking. I studied some photography. I was doing quite a bit of photography for years ago, but then I kind of stuff a little bit bad but still like I don't know there's something about art and there's something about like the creative process that I think is very related to philosophy. I mean before we dig really deep into story system and you know, like a bit of more of that like I would just want to know your thoughts about the link of creativity and philosophy. Yeah, I think it's I think it's very applicable for sure. I think it's helped me a lot to I think my best link was philosophy is to understand like what's truly intrinsic to me, like what are my values and how I can capture that through my work? I think it's easy, especially with social media to get off track to appease to or to appeal to others to like do all this stuff and I'm definitely at full I think. That fault to an extent with that and so it says in my feel has really like brought real me back into okay, like what am I actually truly stoked about? What am I? Like what am I truly what is like truly internally me, you know, and how can I capture that? So for me, it's like Outdoors, you know and and being being through an honest with myself and being just self-aware of like this is the most fulfilling part for me is to To be outside and to capture that somehow and going from there with that. So that's how creativity and stoicism is. Really. Worked in my life. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. I mean and yeah just for a bit of context for people who haven't seen your YouTube channel or they don't know yet. Like I yeah, man, I mean it was cool. Like I was telling you really like I used to watch your videos like since book one and it's been super awesome. And now lately I saw these update that he posted kind of like, you know, like sometimes adversity comes into the lives. Like honestly, I made a bit of in the middle of that like every time I have data but because it's always as if I'm in the middle of that but it's just constant man likes there's always something going on and I just want to know a bit of like a your background like getting into so easy. So maybe what triggered it? Yeah as much as you feel comfortable sharing like no worries. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm happy to share. So I was I didn't really know what stoicism what I know. I like self-help was Prior and like self-help was cool. I don't think anything's wrong with it. But sometimes it's a lot of I thought it sounded not to be so practical sometimes not all the time, but sometimes and some of it was also a bit too out there for me. Like like I'm a very practical like like level do like I drive a Prius, you know, like it's just like like I'm a very practical dude and and yeah, so I think the first book, you know, Ryan holiday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so he so I had heard from a friend of mine Daleks troll another photographer. I was listening to a podcast he was on he said he was reading the book ego is the Enemy at the time and I was like, oh cool. Like I'll check it out and the podcast was recorded like years earlier and this is like earlier this summer when I just like had re-listen to it and I was like, oh I should Should read that because I've been getting into reading at unlike prior to this. Like I just been reading book after book. And so to continue to train I was reading egos the enemy and yeah to put it in a nutshell like that time of my life earlier this summer and April. I was like doing Road life. I was I was doing Road life in the midst of that. I was questioning if I was really enjoying Road life and not being fully honest with myself. And then I had like a lot of business inquiries stuff. Like, you know, when you get like 10 plus inquiries, it's like, oh one will work out one didn't work out and then in the midst of that I also had I was like had girl problems basically so and like all of this is happening at once and I'm like, I'm not going to go too in depth with that. But it like all hit heavy in the midst of reading ego is the enemy Just questioning. I think I think the biggest thing was like I was doing the road life staying doing all that and I just started like questioning like what am I actually doing? Like is this like a my my doing Road life? Because I enjoy it or because I'm trying to project this image of Me like but then but then I even enjoying this image of me. Like am I enjoying what I'm trying to project or am I just like out here just trying to like make it by doing this like it was just like, oh like it literally makes as much sense to me as it does is me trying to explain it to you. It just doesn't didn't percents. And I was like what the hell am I doing and you know blah blah blah girl troubles. I moved back to Washington to made like actually be here for the first time. And a long time and I just was like living with family. So I guess I was listening to egos the enemy on audiobook and then reading The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle and those books and Tandem and I also always have a fun book going onto so I like I was reading those listening to to like practical wisdom stoic books. And then I was reading like random books like The Hobbit and then like the Hunger Games Harry Potter like I always Have a fun but going on too. And yeah, so that was like I got daily stoic by Ryan holiday as well. So we're doing those and like yeah like that. There's like past summer really was my introduction / solidifying how much I loved stoicism because it's this so practical like there's no like and I don't want to hate on anything, but there's no real. Gin attached there's no this or that attached to it. It's just like like you can't look at you can't read the book and be like hmm. I don't know about that. Like it's like it's like it's it's true like if you like I and that's that's what it was like it was just something I couldn't argue and it's so simple like and that's like I'm the kind of guy that if there's too much food in the fridge I eat out and like when that makes sense, like I just I just get overloaded with info and I can't I can't handle it. Like long emails like I just can't do it. It's too much food in the fridge. And so with stoicism is just simple like the daily stoic it's you know, maybe a Page worth of text every day with practical wisdom. And then I got the little question book as well the the journal that came with it and it's just like starting every morning like that this past summer just like dialing in like just being very mindful. Yeah. It was it was great. And so that was my intro to it and like really I dedicated a My time is past six months since May to it. Like I've been practicing it a ton in like meditation as well as journaling. Like I like anyone listen to this podcast. I encourage you to journal like oh my God, it's the best lesson on perspective ever it is. So so good and I try to journal every day and it's just like you can You know when you like talk to your friends and your listen to your problem their problem and it's like you like know the answer. You're like stop being so stupid. That's what a journaling is. It's like you're looking you're looking at your own problems from an outside perspective now instead of Inward and something about that is like it just makes you realize like how unimportant things are and like in a good way like how not big deal things are and like how much like things just go on, you know, and so like every morning like So I guess back to back up like that was kind of like my intro to stoicism Andrew that's been my practices. And yeah and like with now I'm working at moment. Like it's a it's a busy job. I got it. It takes a lot of my end so energy and time so lately my journey was stoicism is not for not having an excuse to to be too busy for it because it's easy for me to like workaholic my way through it, but Through the day, but I'm trying to like back up and like every morning like spend 30 to an hour. Just sorry. I heard a noise outside doors. Anyways, sorry. I don't know what that was. He didn't anyone to check we could president worried. No. No, it's fine. Yeah, I'll just start from here. So with it being really busy with work and stuff. I try to like spend, you know, 32 an hour every morning after. Journaling writing about lately. It's been a big thing writing about perspectives. There's this really really good quote from a book called 7 Habits of Highly Successful People by Stephen r.covey and it's examine your own motivations against your highest values because they impact your perception and which impacts your behavior and the results of the follow and I pretty much write that in my journal every day and like all Think about whatever I'm doing like my motivations for like something in my personal life or something in my business life and I'm like, okay. Well, like what does does this thing? This is what I'm going toward lineup with my values and if it's like No And it's like, okay. Well, how's that if it's no or yes, I'm like, okay. Well, how is that impacting my perception of the situation and what will the results be and my behavior my reaction to it. Be so it's been like that quote is probably one of the best colors I've ever heard because you can apply it to everything and I pretty much write that every morning to my journal. So that's kind of like my intro plus my intro to stoicism and philosophy as well as kind of my current practice. But yeah, it's good. No, that's so cool. I love it because they could definitely see how you're getting fired of a bit like getting started like not to say that I'm To like far in advance of that. Like I said, I started this thing like two years ago, but like same like the the first few months, I was crazy. I was just talking a lot about it. I was obsessed with it. It's just such a like you said, it's just a truth. It just right there can't argue it. Yeah, even if you could you would probably just be saying the same things in other words because I mean that's what I love about it. Like it really is till we see some really like you said it doesn't come with that. With the weight of a religion or political movement. It really is just thinkers expressing their thoughts on life and and yeah the reality of it and the practicality right and in the one thing I do really love especially Ryan holiday does this is like, I mean, he admits he's agnostic. He doesn't follow a religion. But like he literally just posted a photo showing the books he read on tour and one of them was like the Holy Bible, you know, and like and he draws from all these other religious texts and it's like Like I grew up in the church. And so I kind of have a different perspective on that and to be able to just accept knowledge for what it is versus a religion attached to it. I think is really cool. And I think one of my favorite passages from The Power of Now, which I thought was just really cool that he included it at car. It was just like this passage about like does God help you or hinder you what? That is let's just keep going and it's just like oh, okay. It's that simple like like that's not much food in the fridge. You have to deal with like it's just like it's just so simple and yeah, that's right. That's right. I appreciate those stoicism is it is just practical practical work with no religion attached. So yeah mine, I agree like it's hard because we are always told like I don't know either Society. There's a lot of forces telling us how to think about life how to grow. About life something that I'm interested in knowing your opinion. General is kind of like, you know, you kind of took this path of being a creator online showing your photography your work. Do you think there was a lot of I don't know convention in there kind of like something external telling you how to be who you should be like ants up or where you always able to feel authentic to yourself. Yeah, I think at the start I was very authentic. myself and this kind of comes back to like what I've really just discovered her like rediscovered this summer is like when it started out like I to put it simply like it started out so innocent and just started out like basically my goal was to make enough money to not second have a second thought about going out to eat with my friends and being able to like buy a beer with it. Like I was kind of like my go like like originally and I just had the idea of doing weddings and like just like making it like that and and just cruising and hanging with my friends from there and then like Yeah, and then success like came quick and also just really shifted my mindset with it. And I was actually talking to my manager last night about it and like just just like reflecting a lot with him lately and I think a big part of it was it changed a lot of things there and to bring it back to the idea of stoicism is it like I kind of was not true to myself. I was not very self aware of what I was doing and with social media is just like this. It's like a big ego Fest. Sometimes and that's kind of where I was heading. It's just like I just kind of trying to build this image it like wasn't actually real, you know, as I said that like, I mean that's that's a whole thing. We could dive it but like it but like it was just this image of myself online that I wasn't really like stoked on I wasn't like to be to be the sense successful photographer, you know, but like I wasn't spending my time outside because that's where the started with like. I was just hiking I was just Outside like enjoying I was climbing a ton and like I just like never I wasn't doing that. I was focused on the emails the editing I had to do the next the next big job. Yeah, I just gotta I just got a reminder on my phone from the call map saying mindfulness reminder. So yeah, it was it was just like so that's kind of swear'st. ISM brought me to this summer. It was like it. I guess the best way to put like after that whole like shebang of all that stuff happening. It it put me in a place where I could look Beyond ego look beyond that like sheet. I was holding up and like actually see what was going on and also offered a place of extreme vulnerability with myself to where I'm like, okay, this sucks about me. This is This is cool about me. Like what am I actually doing? And then it brought me back to like what I would like what's truly like say assembly. Like I was right the first time like just enjoying the outdoors just being outside and and because that's what it started out with and then success myself Society like all of the that got in the way of just something that wasn't actually intrinsic to main room. So like bringing that full circle. It's Stoicism I mean I said earlier has really brought me back to what its intrinsic and in that like I said, I was climbing a ton back in like twenty fourteen and fifteen and and now I'm doing that again because I'm not chasing after this thing. That's not actually me and a big part of like one of my friends put it perfectly the Instagram and social media. Like when you go meet people it's like the school Community but in a day It's essentially just like a bunch of friendships. Like it's just like a bunch of one-night-stand friendships. Like you kind of just see people and then you leave like that's kind of you might see him for a week. And then you see him like a year and a half later or you see him for a few days. And then maybe you see him a few months later a few years later like it's not very consistent and and I when I was like honest with myself, I was like yo, I want like consistent friends. Like that's that's so lame, too. Did you just be building this online image to impress all these people and press all these people that are following you and it's just like I mean, it sounds as lame as it is like and I'm just like what the hell am I doing? And so in that? Yeah, it brought me back to Everett to Washington and I've been living here for 6 months with some friends now. I'm cat-sitting for my parents right now. Either way. That might be the loud noise. But yeah, and so it brought me brought me back to here and I started I've been climbing a ton again. I've been outside a decent amount. I want to be outside more but then getting back Outdoors hiking and then like within with climbing and stuff. I like have found that consistent community of friends like and that community of people where we hang out and like do brunches. We all got Mexican food last night. We're all going on a climbing trip to bend later. We've been to like climbing trips around here too and it's just like that's so much more fulfilling than than a number next to my name or a big paycheck and it's like that's what truly matters and like success is success is just like funny like that because it's just like you here societal success and it's like money girls cars whatever and it's just like no like I just want to go like climb rocks with my friends like like like that it just like enjoy their time have dinner and lunch with them and then just like it just do life with the was good people and like when you realize that success, it's just like life gets a lot easier like Like what I was doing when I was not focusing on that there was again like too much food in the fridge. My mind was in so many other places focused on so many things that didn't actually matter when it's like what I really wanted was just like right there like behind the milk, you know, it's just like is it was the very day I always use that I use this. I love the food in the fridge analogy like yeah. Yeah when I moved back here, I was just with my parents for a few months and The refrigerator broke upstairs, so they used my refrigerator downstairs. They like moved all the food in there to there. And so prior to this. I was really like I was really good about meal prepping and like not eating out and I was just like I was very like dialed and then like all of a sudden they moved all their fruit. They move too much food in my fridge and they like and I started like eating out like I started like my hands completely chai would like be like, oh my God, what do I make and I was just Dip the chips I can just like I feel like stopped. I stopped making food because there was too much information too much bullshit that I had to look at and it like overwhelmed me and I was like, it's like such a good analogy for life like too much food in the fridge because it's like I don't operate when there's too much detail. Like I like yeah, I like less food in the fridge like I like less Choice. Yeah. There's not much drugs men like this is this world of The internet like has its problems of choice, right? Like there's too much and there's a lot of Life beds of people say that they can help you get wherever you want to gear and it's not always fake promises. Like I do believe people do have the tools to either make you you know, like go down this rabbit. If you want to be a professional photographer filmmaker, like I get ejected, it's crazy like for you is photography something still there in your heart or have is that something that yeah. Yeah, and that's like the interesting thing was like Working out molten at now. Like I said, it's a really busy job and my job there is filmmaking. So I'm filming a lot and editing more and that's pretty much my job there and now like right now it's just super busy with holidays. So I once it slows down like hopefully I'll have more time to like actually practice photography because now it's cool. That photography is my own again to to not rely on a paycheck from it and to do not rely on like freelance work or her paycheck from it to to be able to just go and shoot like I haven't been shooting much but the times I've been shooting I've really enjoyed it's like when I go climbing with my friends like I'm shooting film like I don't have to bring my I've got enough to worry about what camera I'm going to brain. Like I can shoot for film with my friends on a little hundred dollar film camera and just enjoy the time with them have fun to creating those photos and That's really cool for me. It's a definitely like a different mind shift, but it's really cool to have haven't be my own a hundred percent again, like I do still want to do photo work. Like I want to like spend time. I like one thing I really learned this summer is not to like have an idea in Russian to a real quick like dwell on it. Take your time and see if you're see what ideas and feelings about stuff keep coming up consistently. And so I want to like really sit. And dwell and Define. Okay, like I'm going to move back into photo work. I know I want to do that. But how do I move in that and sustain it and not not burn out too much and keep my focus on on the right thing. Yeah, right. So like what's it for you? Like what kind of a drain you like through those years previous like to have where you are now with a bit more clarity. What's it really like doing things for? There's an and the YouTube thing that is is it that would drain you or was it something else? I'd say yeah, like when you put out especially when I did dailies Vlogs and stuff for a time and this is all like this is all kind of like a psychology kind of thing. I like it like a mind thing where it's just like you put you'll do dailies and then like all of a sudden you expect that people expect you to do dailies and like I couldn't keep up with that because you know, like I think that the dam of photographer I'm not a blogger and when that expectancy settles in those anxiety set in and like the pressure to perform and all this stuff and like that just kind of loaded up over the years and it's just like it leads me to May 20 19. I'm just like all this build-up all this pressure that doesn't actually exist. I've just built it up in my Own mind and I don't need to perform for XYZ. Like I just need to like do my thing like I think one of the things I talked about to my manager last night was like Hey, if we were to do this again, like I want to really talk about like what it would look like and I think a big focus is like I was worrying more too much about the business crap like worrying too much about the business stuff and like being an emails and all that stuff and I wasn't actually focusing on what my job. Title was which was a photographer. Like I was spending I was like I was a professional email ER and professional editor. Like I wasn't out shooting which is like that doesn't classify me as a photographer, you know, and yeah, this is like an honest observation of just like, okay. Well, yeah. Have you ever heard of renown ozturk? No. No, he's a he's a filmmaker. There's a really good film. Have you heard from Alex Honnold guy who did free solo. No, sorry. Okay. So now you're gonna you're gonna it was a film recently basically written on works at camp for Collective, which is a big filmmaking group that did free solo. Alex Honnold is the guy who David it's like a oscar-winning film that came as a climbing film but there's this really good video of both of them separate project they did where they went to this trip in the Alaska range and they were climbing and all this stuff and and Alex Like it's just a very interesting dude, like he's every decision. He's made. Has so much intention toward the same goal of his climbing career or as we're not on is like me. It's just like he really enjoys the idea of creating and all this stuff and he's really freaking good and he also liked as much like, I mean in the terms of Success commercial wise has great successes, like well beyond what I've done and but there's like these honest moments in this film of him being like because he started off as like a film Therefore climbing and he's got into all this other stuff. That's really good work like but it's really cool to hear his honesty through that be like, oh, like even he goes through all this stuff like even he goes through, you know, it started off doing climbing and he still outdoors and third world countries doing amazing work, but it's like what happened what what where did like that first love kind of go and so like bringing it back to that now, it's just like finding where that first love was climbing and And being outside and all that so crazy. I mean I love what you're saying because I think we are constantly sold them the idea of if if you leave like the lifestyle that you are leaving but I like traveling around the world and doing your passion like that. We see that and we assume that okay, everything must be all said once you achieve that level and it's Gracie, you know, like you're probably just gave some people and existential crisis because if there's a lot of yeah who might be searched. Yeah, and that's the Being like that was me and may like existential crisis like quarter life crisis. I was just like what the hell am I doing it like but because I didn't know there were tons of the building. Yeah. We have a special guest. It's not necessary. Hey, okay. Yeah. I'm doing okay. We had a bit of a Interruption real quick people were people had to fix my parents shower. I'm cat-sitting for them their York so minor Interruptions, no worries the yeah and so having an existential crisis. The quarter life crisis is the call it for me like it was so good because I'm the kind of person that like dwells too much. We're just like a flaw but like I it's like it's like a blessing and a curse by like dwelled a lot on I was just like very, oh I want I was like really examining. I mean that goes back to that quote like examine your own. Chance against her highest values and impacts your perception of its impact your behavior and the results of the follow. Like that's what I was doing 24/7. It's just like examining my motives and like all this stuff and like having that existential crisis like so so good. I think it's so important for everyone to have that because you either realize you're being honest with yourself and you're not like it's so insane how honest with ourselves. We are like to be self-aware as like the most important thing and I think a lot of people lack that and Yeah, so if you are sitting here having a panic attack right now, that's probably a good indication that you should be thinking about some things trust me, it's good. Yeah, it's crazy. But you know, like I was listening to this book that I love is called awareness and and these guys talking about how he's very conflicted because he's kind of like maybe more spiritual kind of guy not necessarily religious, but he's talking about the importance of awareness and really knowing ourselves and seeing ourselves from 1/3. Third person point of view almost and he says he was also a psychologist. So he said he had this conflict because he thought that psychologists believe the pain sometimes right or their mess. There is this type of therapies or even like, you know, like someone who gives you some advice that makes you feel good and it's crazy because that is a bit of relief where sometimes you do need to go through the suffering because there's something at the other side that will only be discovered through the suffering and this is not to say, you know, like he's always good to see this disclaimers. Like if someone is really struggling with something is important too because your professor stuff but those of us who suffer a lot but I don't know what types of things is not always a bad thing. Yeah. It's like yeah, there's there's a good quote. That's just simple and it's a good as a smooth sea never made a good sick Captain smooth cap. Yeah something something like that. She never made a good sir. or something like that and like is true like you have to like you need to go through all that the really crappy cease to really be good at navigating life and like as well the sun's coming out now man, all these all these changes and it's really good to like now that I've gone through this like rough season of life and like now life's like move and like it's good like it's in a good spot. Like I know there will inevitably be other rough seasons of life and but I'm a better captain now, like I know how to how to manage that and how to work through that so it's pretty sick. Yeah and it is teaches you a lot about yourself and a lot of introspection and that's where that part of journaling comes back in like you kind of just touch on that idea gained about the psychologist is like you Yeah, like you're able to look at your problems from an outside perspective. I guess third person perspective and that is closest to have one of the best one of the best things you can do. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I don't know like I want to know your oh, so you're European Union people who do want to pursue their passion and maybe people who do want to use creativity as a way to express themselves is is I don't know everything you went through like regarding like a YouTube creations and and everything. You went through. Is it is it something that you do recommend to people do you think it can be done? Right? I really want to know your opinion that sure I think it can be done. Right? I think you just have to be mindful and very self-aware like who you're doing it for it's just like sorry. I'm like so many like sounds going on. I'm trying to find a good spot. Like basically, I think it's you just have to use that to be doing it like true to you. Like that's the most important thing. I was listening to a podcast last night. Have you ever listened to finding Mastery I think is what it's called. And it's this sport psychologist and he hangs out with just like next level like top-of-the-line athletes pretty much and so one of the things it was interviewing me. Standing who was a surfer and Mick Fanning like won several World titles, like all this stuff like really amazing Surfer retired last year, but make was just talking about like like he asked the question have you like when you were up there on the podium like or like when you were when you were competing? Were you aiming for the podium? He's like, well, I thought I could make the podium most times but at the end of the day like I was just trying to compete with myself. He's like, you know the first time I competed For the world's it was like I finished fifth then I finished fourth and third and then second second and I was like, okay. Well if I'm going at this pace, I can probably get to one and he and like he's not thinking like oh if I can keep this up, I'm going to be Kelly Slater. Oh if I can keep this up, I'm gonna like win over my opponent. He's thinking about like, oh like if I can if I can be better than myself last year. That's all that matters. And then he won the next year. He was in first place and like that's such a Like such a hard perspective to keep and such a hard hard to keep in mind, but if you can keep that in mind, like that's what I'm trying to do with climbing like, you know, I'm climbing at a certain level and I'm like, okay cool. Like all these guys around me are like, you know climbing above my level, but I don't care like like I want to be better like deny was last month. So let's let's go from there. You know, I think that's the most important thing is just to focus on where you're at and and compete healthily with And so applying that to your question of just being like your social media and all that. I think there's a very healthy way to go about it. And like I said, I think one of my faults was I just got busy with all the all the food in the fridge. I was focusing on too many other things that didn't actually matter and what I really wanted was just like right there and so focusing on what's true to you is the most important And thing and if you're not focusing on it, it's going to it's going to get snuffed out by others. Like if you're trying to put on some facade or this or that like it's gonna get snuffed out. Like you can't number one like you're going to like low-key kind of hate life. And then number two like others will pick up on the fakeness of it. So there's really I mean like punching in the numbers so that doing the math. There's really no reason to do something other than Other than what's true to you? And yeah, it is again examine your own motivations against your highest value is blah blah blah like you can apply that quote to it again like the best clothes. So yeah that answer your question. I guess that's the roundabout answer. Alright the other little Interruption, but we're just testing a painfully to deal with adversity. Welcome to my life. It's just like like everything's just so Scrappy like I'm trying to rig it right now to stand stand my phone. I'll put the I'd drive a journal and some headphones. I'll send you asking you a picture of it as a pretty good little rig it work most of it but ya know so you said like he's kind of like this idea of being always honest to yourself and trying to find a way that works for you. What would your advice to people like maybe people who don't know whether it's the route that they want to go to is maybe like a freelance route where they can apply, you know, get our like being self-employed. This is a dream of a lot of baggage of wanting to be self-sustained fully like, you know, like depend on ourselves versus now that you say you have a job. What are the differences how have they impacted your life? Sure. Well, I'll start with the advice first. I think it's important to look ahead and ask why you're doing it. Like I said at the beginning it was about being outside and like, you know doing my own schedule and all this stuff and I I achieve that and it just all the busyness and all that got in the way and that's where I went wrong like where I just was focusing on too many other things that weren't actually that important to me. So as you as you contemplate doing freelance or as you contemplate doing whatever like have a set set of goal or like have Direction have a goal of mine because you can't score without a goal. We don't have tracks or going to wander off like have a mission statement and idea of what you want to be doing. That's really true and intrinsic to you like, you know being outside climbing. That's what I want to be doing. That's what I want to be shooting and photographing and just like outside and just this pretty dialed. It's a pretty dialed very simple explanation of what I want to be doing so find out for yourself, you know. And then yeah, the second part of that you asked about the difference between freelancing and having a steady job and I'm still settling into this study job. The steadiness is very nice. I won't lie. It is really really nice to have but I also won't lie in the fact that I really miss my schedule my own schedule like where I goes do whatever I want what I wanted like like I have to think like, okay tomorrow, we'll be filming all day like it's not it's not my day. It's like the Today and it's still relatively remote like for the most part is pretty free about like like I have to like like it's a big it's like a decent sized company and to be honest. There's a lot of food in their fridge like it's just like it's a little bit really overwhelming what's going on and that's it's been a good learning curve. It's a big learning curve is steep. There's a lot of information to learn blah blah blah, but at the end of the day it is a really cool. Cool opportunity to have steadiness and yeah, like it's and I'm still really fresh into it. So it's hard to give a good perspective of it. But I think the one the biggest takeaway so far as like, you know, it's nice to have someone give you a to do list versus I come up with your own as a freelancer, but also like it might not be The To Do List you want so so like being able to just like Suck it up and just do the work. Like I think that's a really good lesson for me lately. It's just too not just to like do it and not complain like even though it might be something I don't want to do like suck it up like you're getting paid to do it. And yeah, like it's a good it's a good lesson on perspective journaling has very sinner sinner me a lot and this is this time of realizing. Okay. I'm not a hundred percent in charge of my schedule or my life as much anymore, but it's also been a Ali good It's been a really good lesson on perspective lately. Like I don't know how much I can go into that because it's just like I don't want to talk about yeah, we won't we won't talk about that. But yeah, it's just like observations I've made but but it's also provided a lot of honesty and myself like, okay, what are my like again revisiting my values and stuff like that. It's like I have a lot more headspace to like think to I don't want to be worrying about the next paycheck or the next job. Like I know in two weeks I'm gonna get paid x amount and that's that's pretty nice when you don't have that as a freelancer, you know, you'll make good money one year and a fourth that the next as a freelancer. So just like it the setting this is really great to have so yeah, that's crazy. I mean, what would it take away from that is that it doesn't like there's this there's this quote like the Good life can be lived it under any circumstances, right? Yes, get it like the idea that you don't necessarily have to follow an external path of how things should be in your life in order for you to be in the moment and enjoy life as it is. I think that's what I'm taking from this because yeah, I mean I'm definitely sold on the idea of like being self-employed is a dream like that that is kind of still my dream. I've been doing a lot about it because of all these worries that it take a bad, but if anything is a good reminder of it doesn't really matter. Matter what the external circumstances are you can definitely find peace and calm in whatever state you are in life. And yeah, I know and that's really well said I think I'd have haven't really touched on that too much but that's a huge lesson. I learned aspect like The Power of Now like that book was so powerful for me. Like when I read that in tandem with listening to egos the enemy like that combination is insane because it just takes you like I mean ego is anything but accepting what's real right now and in The Power of Now is literally about accepting what alright snow and it's just like it's fascinating like reading those two books together because it taught me a lot about like yeah just being being present like actually I'd like being where I'm at being with the person I'm with being in the conversation breathing in the air like doing like sensation like appreciating the sensations that come with life like it it's crazy like and then there's there's very and I thought about this like at the time where I was at the as the years of when I was not Not that my head wasn't in the right place, but I was just like focusing on the wrong stuff not like what I truly wanted to be focusing on like there's very few times right like think back to and remember like, oh, I remember that moment and it was so president. Like I was so they're like like like one of the biggest most impactful moments. I remember I was climbing. I was hiking the enchantments and Washington and it was sunset. We were up like 8,000 feet with some Mountain like this crazy like peaked. I left and all this stuff as I taken some photos of my friend. I was just like man, this is crazy and I was like set my camera down for the first time in ages. Like I wasn't focused on taking a photo. I was just I was just fully focused on like there. I remember so many details out that moment. Like I remember where my friend was standing. I remember the Three Peaks in front of me. I remember the valley below me and it's just like I thought so much about that when I was reading those books and how much I lacked that and then now it's the it's different like especially with climbing. Like I think that's a really good way to bring you into the now because it's just like you're focusing on every little move and and the climbing and like that kind of stuff has such opportunity to practice mindfulness because you can climb like Way grades way below what you're doing and just like just like think about and be very present with the next hold you grab and like that's so much fun. Just a cruise on like low. Like it's just like mindfulness exercises. Like it's it sounds so lame sometimes like oh I think about how you cook your eggs and Flip Flip them like but it's just like it's kind of fun just like bring you right in at the now and you know, you can be on autopilot so much and and it's just that It's just not a way to live life and like you said like it's the now and the appreciation of the moment is accessible and happiness is accessible at any time. And I think that was one of the biggest takeaways from the summer from Reading those books. And yeah, I hope that section made sense, but I think okay, it's crazy. Remember get this thing like it's constantly we're always looking for the next thing. It doesn't matter what problem is going on right now is always about Filming it so that soon will be okay and everything will be okay soon that moment never comes at it but happiness keeps being postponed. Yeah, and I mean think about it like if you keep saying okay, the next moment will be okay the next to me a moment will be okay. Like when I get a like just cars fine when I get a better ones fine. Okay. You got the car. They've got the new car. Okay, like this house is okay, but when I get it when I get a bigger house all be fine and like blah blah blah like years later you're in your big house by yourself with your new car and it's just like what happened, you know, like like like that's like that perspective for me. It was crazy. It's like just think about just like, okay. Well if I'm only looking ahead to what's next like what like I'm always going to be doing this, you know, and so like taking myself out of that being like, okay. Well like what's now like, what's what's not what's next what is now and just like enjoying it for what it is like, yeah. I've like, I've really been trying to just not complain about anything and being mindful of not Because what difference is it going to make you know, like like oh this this job is so busy. Like what's going to change like, you know, like like that like my me ranting or India that like or like this client sucks like okay cool, like nothing's going to happen. So just like not complaining and just accepting it for what it is and viewing stuff with indifference and moving forward. Like I think that is like the best way to achieve now and on yeah. Yeah. Well, I know it's crazy. There are certain girls that yeah for sure. It's crazy and you know regarding your priorities in life. I mean priorities as a concentrated like I was seeing this idea of you have like say I mean, it could be with a few things but like the burner in the kitchen, you know, like the thing that he used to is it burner. Yeah, they're right. So like you have a certain amount of gas and you can only Delightfully, like two or three at the time and you have for it. This is the hole concentration and one is family when his friends. The other one is work and the other one is health and the concept is if you really want to excel at one of these in life, you have to turn off to and if you want to keep everything balanced you can have all four like at low, but you will never excel at anything. But yeah, I've heard that before and back then so it was friends family. Lee health and work. Yep. Okay. Yeah back when I first heard that like I was really focused on work and and I was like really fine with the idea. Like I remember this vividly actually and I was really fine was just focusing on work and health like as messed up as that sounds. Yeah. I mean, that's just that's literally ego right there like speaking like and now but then like I mean if you focus on those two things I mean congrats like you used to you found success in that and now you're in your house alone, like like, you know, I mean like it it's like like it's like what's it going to do for you at the end of the day, you know, like I my perception of time and money has been altered significantly in the past few months and understanding like like I've had a really really good years of freelance. In fact, my best freelance here was my worst personal life personal year and really Yeah, and then my Not only was my worst freelance year, but one of my lower freelance years was filled with a lot of personal growth and and the freelance year. I remember the most is my very first year is like, you know, I only made like double my star but I was working at Starbucks prior and I just made double my salary which at the time I was like Gaston like I was like, oh my God, like I'm actually doing it like it's his actually working out. But in retrospect it wasn't that much compared to other freelance years and but that was my favorite year because I was just gunning like I was enjoying it for what it was. I was loving a process and yeah, and that's truly what it is. Like if you you have to enjoy the process of stuff and if you're going to be successful, you have to enjoy the process and I think going back to that quote like finding success in work Finance success in health. I think that's important, but I'd rather have the full balance of this point like friends family health work because Like I don't want to be in my big house alone by myself. Like I think it doesn't matter unless it's filled with like people that you appreciate and like the real homies and you know doing lunch with your friends on Thursday nights and stuff like that. So it's just like like it's just it's to each their own but that's what truly matters to me, you know, like like my my understanding of money is a lot different now and Success has been very much redefined in that perspective. That means that it's really valuable. I think is it is idea of Seasons right? Like at some point in life you prioritize something then something else maybe and then at some point in life, you really want to have the balance of all those and I'm sure yeah the trick is to just be honest with yourself be like honestly, what do you value right now? Because it doesn't mean it's wrong if you want to have like one on full power and the other ones turned off like if that's what you want to do right now be honest with yourself and just yeah that feels He joins. Okay, like there's no judgment read only your own. Yeah, and it's again going back to that club examine your own motivations against your highest values blah blah blah like that is so applicable when you are shifting your focus just like kids because like it when if you like for instance, you're kind of putting the other three on the bottom like on hold and you're focusing hundred ten percent on the work. It's like, okay. Well I can make sure that work is worthwhile. Make sure what you're doing is actually like intrinsic to you and actually matters toward your highest values because Yeah. Oh, yeah going explaining that but like it's like this examine as you as you shift those focuses and I agree. I think I think what you said is really accurate is like it's Seasons, you know? Yeah, definitely. Is there something like about that whole stage like maybe when you were fully dedicated work, there's something about that you regret that he was usually spend differently or something that you learn from. I wish I would have focused more on what I enjoyed like I focused a lot on business stuff. I focused a lot on. that like the the business side and all that of Photography and like the personality side when like with YouTube and everything like a kind of became something I shouldn't have and then I wish I would have also done more activities that I enjoyed like climbing like I've being back in the climbing like it is so much fun. I guess so healthy for me to be in that state and be just enjoy it for what it is. I think that would have helped sustain and and brought me back to I think it would have. Yeah, I think it would have if I had a kept that in mind as I went along I think that would have helped sustain the crew the I don't want to say sustain the career. I feel like that's wrong. But I feel like I would have helped sustain my stability. I don't know if that's the right word. Maybe I get I guess it would help he's not burn out it would help me focus on what actually matters because like now that I'm around like friends and community and like I have that like my mind is a lot more like straight forward like I I can kind of I know my priorities and and like why I have them and blah blah blah like I forgot what your question was, but I think I was second. I think there might have been an answer but I remember it but balls that the say I don't regret any of it. Like I think the perspective I have now and the perseverance the perspective I have now and the person Fact that I'm still learning as I enter a new job and like all this stuff like I'm just learning so much. I'm so much about myself and so much about like the process and I'm really enjoying the process. That's the most important thing. I just wouldn't have this perspective. If I hadn't gone through all that and the appreciation for what I'm the appreciation for everything. I'm doing yeah, like climbing and photography. It's like it's like back in my 2014 again when I was just working at Starbucks. It's like that whole Drive is there again, it's just like whoa, like I really understand how value how cool my life was in a way like that's not coming from a cocky person. active I guess just gave me so much realisation of like well, I was really fortunate to I have my own schedule to be able to do what I do when I wanted and and why was I complaining that point so it is just like a really good perspective shifts. Yeah, that's cool. That's awesome. You know in case there's someone you know, like someone who has follow you along that process of you know, every YouTube video someone who has you know you to be designed and yeah, you know, I'm sure you miss Park people know. I mean, I'm definitely a case of that definitely inspired me. What would you say to those people? You know because I definitely see a bit of a closure of as he sending your life at least to the intensity that you were in YouTube and that kind of stuff. Like what would be your message for someone like that? Yeah. I mean it's cheesy but it's true. It's just like stay true to you. Like I said most important thing I'd say live by that Stephen are quote Covey quote. I said like just examine your own motivations blah blah blah like when you can apply that to everything you do. Do I think it I think it's a really good train track for you to like not get caught up and stuff. That doesn't matter. I guess other stuff would be like keep things simple don't complicate it. I'm really good at that at complicating things having too much food in my fridge and yeah like at the end of the day Just just make sure you're doing things for the right reasons and for yourself. I don't try to compete against your next door neighbor or your biggest enemy or the other photographer in your city. Like just do it for yourself. And as long as you're doing better than as long as you're finding success and the right definition of it for you. Like that's all that matters. It's all right. Yeah, I'm still figuring it out as well. So don't don't rush it. Yeah, it doesn't feel like we're in constant state of figuring things out and and it's yes. Yeah, they're like, especially you like even even like if you said that those points in YouTube like it. I definitely thought of you as someone very genuine and I do appreciate that because it's hard to find someone who actually gives you like calm and not not make you feel like you're missing out on little life that yeah, right, and that's that's what I want. Like that's such a good point too because it's just like with YouTube and social media like it's really easy to feel that and like at the end of the day like number one. Like you're not seeing all the backend stuff. You're not seeing them grinding out at coffee shops grinding it out on like like so much airplane travel like all the all the miscommunications and all the like all the other stuff like the food in the fridge that you have to deal with like you don't see that part of it and at the end of the day they have the same they have the same struggles you do, you know like and like as I'm talking on this podcast like I have my own problems to like, I'm not this very dialed human. I'm just self-aware like that's kind of what it comes down to and I'm constantly learning and so as you as the listeners like are looking at these people that are you know, traveling in Bali every other week or or doing these crazy things like at the end of the day, They probably have similar personal problems to you. They probably have this sort of that. Like the only thing they might have like a lot like a lot of the big time people. Like the only thing they have on you is money and like at the end of the day, does that really matter and the answer to put it bluntly as know like it really is doesn't like like have enough to get by and be happy and that's all you need. Yeah, truly awesome. Yeah. All right. So I think I think that would wrap it up. You find out anything you want to say? No, like I think I think you asked some good questions at the in there. And I think I would say kind of I think I should real off a few books people should read though. Okay, I think this is such a big reader so sometimes okay. So anything by Ryan holiday? Yeah. I'm I'm reading I read egos. The enemy obstacle is the way I'm currently reading his Stillness is the key which is his most recent one really good Stillness. Something like is Hidden heavy like I love I've been loving how he's written that book Power of Now probably the most impactful book. I've read all summer. Let's see not a book. But like I said earlier just Journal like it is just start and and do it. I'm on my third journal now, it's the best and then let's see if the Alchemist it's not a it's not a like. Stoicism book but it's just a really good story that I think as you read it people will apply it in different ways to their personal life. And then for a fun book, I mean the Hunger Games Harry Potter. I feel like I'm just like reading all the books. I didn't read as a kid that like most most kids read. So those ones too, but let's go. Um, yeah, most of all I just want to add one final recommendation. You didn't ask me to say this, but your Frog looks amazing. And thank you yet is a basic photography and the idea came from like when you go to an art museum, I think about when you're walking around you're not scrolling through your not like we're not looking at one thing looking at one thing looking at one thing moving like just moving on like that. Like you look stupid like you're not going to spend six minutes and argue scene. That's what you do on Instagram. It's like you know, he's like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah just draw heart doubled up that everything. Yeah, they love that. No. It's like that's the thing like as aren't you saying? You're not gonna like you'd be you look stupid if you just like walked in and spend like 7 minutes and just like look at everything real quick and cold a good so I wanted that that's how it is. That's how people do social media is just like scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll like like like and it's just like it's like fast food and I didn't want it to be fast food. I wanted to be like, okay. Well, I want to print out my work in a way that people can like sit there feel it out and just like take their time with it like and so it's also another way I did it is in collections. So Instagram like it has have the carousel feature, which is cool. But it again you're still kind of just swiping and viewing a single image every time it's still not viewing a collection as a whole and I think there's something so valuable about that like when you look at people's blog posts or When you look at print it out photographs, like there's something so different about viewing a physically and and in a collection. So that was the point of this book really is to it's like a hundred fifty some pages. I have some of my writing in there as well as some friends writing and it just collections of some of my favorite images and like it'll be collections like a collection that works together, but like the photos are from a different years different locations and Then it's like some are like totally all the same day. Same location. Same person like is completely varies. That was like the fun part about it. Like there was really no guidelines for me. I just kind of like went for it and just kind of created something that I really enjoyed looking at and it's got a lot of good feedback and the one thing I encourage you to do with it is just like take your time through it. Like I got this message from someone. They were like, yeah, I got through the first 40 pages of your book last night and I'm planning. They're like look at some more tomorrow and I was like dude like you're really sad that I like that made my day to hear. Someone was like look who actually like sitting there looking at the work and being like how does how does it feel to me? How do I perceive this collection? Because it's going to be super different from me to everyone else like my feelings are attached to those as well as I know that people the time like like where I was in life and like if you view it it's going to be something completely different because you don't you don't have those connections you don't have It's really it's really cool to like like I've talked to some friends about it and they're like, oh here's what I felt from this. I'm like sick like wasn't expected that but like it is it's just cool man, like so that's the point of the book you can get it on shop catalog. Okay shop catalog.com. I think there's worldwide shipping. So yeah, I appreciate any support and snow you just put so much passion into it and you can just feel it like it's very genuine and I think it was like I spent like two or three hundred hours on it like earlier this year just like my computer editing 24/7. So cool. I'll put that in the description after all the whole Spiel and social media and that kind of stuff where can people find you either way. Yeah. Yeah and like I guess it's a preface this like I don't think social media is a bad thing. It's just how you use it and how you perceive it. Yeah, but you can find me Andrew T Kearns on Instagram and on. On YouTube. I think it's Andrew T Kern's Vlogs. Yeah, and then I'll be on the moment Channel a lot more at moment. I think as their YouTube at moment is their Instagram. You could find their YouTube through that should probably know I work there are other YouTubers channels. But yeah, I'll be I'll be doing a lot more on there right now. I'm just doing a bunch of product stuff, but hopefully it'll move into more like educational stuff. Like that's the hope and that's the goal some. Fingers crossed. Okay. Awesome. And thank you for being here. Really appreciate it. And yeah, yeah. Thank you, man. Thank you for having me. Read so that was the interview really. Hope you enjoyed it. I want to thank again Andrew for his time. It was such a cool experience for me after being a fan of his work after all the moments. He has inspired me to be a photographer and and to create more I just found this experience super cool. So I highly recommend reaching out to people you admire and you know, like having a conversation but because they're such an amazing opportunity to just have a conversation with someone and hopefully help people in the way like if these podcasts impacted you somehow let me know. It really helps to know what is resonating with you. And what can I produce more of and what type of people you might want to have in the show now that I'm trying to combine philosophy and creativity. So yeah any feedback really helps her feel free to contact me either through Instagram or my contact page on my website. But yeah, that's about it. I also encourage you to check out you starting YouTube channels Andrews Andrews YouTube channel as well as his Instagram. His work is amazing if you have a chance. I would encourage you as well to get his Photography book. This is not sponsored. But I just really believe in his work and I think he has put so much effort into it. So yeah, I highly recommend that and yeah, finally I would really appreciate it. If you have a chance to review the podcast either in apple podcasts or anywhere you can write reviews it really helps and and yeah, that's about it. So that would be much appreciated follow me on Instagram for daily philosophy quotes that I'm doing at the moment and yeah, feel free to reach out. I would love to I know what you're thinking about the podcast any any questions you might have anything you would like me to expand on or any subjects. You would like me to talk about. Yeah. Thank you so much again for your attention, and I'll see you next week momentum, Buddy. Bye.
Andrew Kearns' YouTube Channel Andrew's Instagram Moment YouTube Channel If you have a change support Andrew by getting his photography book How Does It Feel? A Photo Journal by Andrew Kearns (not sponsored in any way, I'm just a fan of his work)  Hey There this is Santi welcome to the podcast,  Today I had the honor of talking to one of my all time favorite photographers. Someone who's work I looked up to for years. His name is Andrew Kearns he's been a YouTuber for many years and has created a large following online sharing his amazing photography and videos. If you are not familiar with his YouTube channel or Instagram, I highly recommend you have a quick look before listening to this episode, just so you have an idea of the impact of his work. I recently came across one of his latest videos where he discussed a lot of changes going on in his life. He mentioned Stoic philosophy and in that moment I sent him an email asking him to be on the podcast. In these episode we discussed Andrew's introduction to Stoicism, we also touched topics like: - the downside of online success - social media - hustling culture Stoicism as well as the advantages of being a creator who relies on philosophy to guide ones decisions through life. Andrew also mentioned how an existential crisis can help you gain clarity. If you've been a fan of Andrew's work, it's awesome to have you here. I am thankful to Andrew for all his honesty throughout this whole conversation, it felt like talking to an old friend. If you've been following Andrew, I believe this is a great update on his life and I believe there's a lot of good advice for creators and people who want to follow their passions. Hope you enjoy the interview  Show Notes 4:00 The link of creativity and philosophy. 6:00 Differences between self-help and philosophy. 8:00 Being honest with ourselves when we notice we are projecting a certain lifestyle. 9:00 Andrew's intro to Stoicism. 10:00 The importance of daily journaling. 13:21 quote from The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People:  "Examine your own motivations against you highest values because they impact your perception which impacts your behavior and the results that follow." -Stephen R. Covey 17:00 Social Media can easily turn into an ego fest. 22:00 The dark side of success. 23:00 Paradox of choice, too much food in the fridge. 26:00 Reflecting on how to make work sustainable. 33:00 Embrace the existential crisis 34:00  “A smooth sea never made a skilled sailor.”  ― Franklin D. Roosevelt  38:00 How to be a creator online, in an authentic way. 50:00 The uselessness of complaining. 50:30 The burners analogy. How to balance aspects of our life such as: - Health - Family - Friends  - Work 53:00 Enjoying the process. 