Hey everyone, welcome to the deconstructor of fun podcast interview Series today. We have our host myself Joseph Kim and Mishka katkov in our guest today is Angela Roseboro who is Chief diversity officer in Talent acquisition lead at one of our favorite companies Riot games. So today we will be talking about sensitive but critical topics which include company culture and diversity in gaming companies today and just to be clear. We want to not just focus on the diversity and inclusion.Which many folks in the media tend to focus on more specifically but also culture more generally and the impact of culture on an organization. Hi, Angela Hi, how are you doing? Really really great and so happy to have you on but I thought we gets first start by talking about you. You have a really impressive background spanning large traditional companies and with experienced in many Industries, including Finance Consulting and prior to Ryan at another favorite company of mine Dropbox. Could you tell us about your career trajectory and how you got to write it first? Okay. I'm so happy that you like both Riot and Dropbox. That means that I've made great choices in my career. So I'm going to start by saying that so, you know, I've been doing diversity where I started off as an HR professional back in 2000 and I always thought that there was this interesting intersection between business and differences. So I worked at a company Where we were consumer goods company and we were trying to decide how do we build our Marketplace and we had not really focused on women who are being much more in the workplace. And so to be able to tie that was really it took my love of people and my love of business and it kind of tied together. But I also knew that there were issues and barriers for women and people of color when they come into traditional organization, so and I had two daughters and I really wanted to have a world where my daughters could be who they were authentic Lee and I actually thought that I would do this job for like five years and we you know, because we talked about the concept of diversity is pretty simple and people get it that my job was to work myself out of a job. And so 15 16 years later. I still have the job of doing diversity work and I makes me sad in some ways because I really wanted this this to the concept of diversity and the practice is to be already kind of ingrained as part of the company's DNA, but happy to To help companies kind of live up to their promise of Tomorrow their people. So I started off in HR. I've been doing this for 15 years. I was doing in more traditional companies manufacturing and finance and and then we're in large companies. So 70,000 people eighty thousand a hundred thousand people and I have this call from a recruiter around Dropbox and I said, you know if I could go to a company with mm because it's hard to turn a company culture around when you are in that. Big and your that institutional but Dropbox to us this new startup company of all that new but it was like 10 years old and it was 2000 and if I could embed diversity and process and then people and as they grow be part of their DNA then I would retiring write a book about how you would do this and how would you not need again diversity professional to help guide your company culture? And so I went to Dropbox. I loved it. My favorite part of Dropbox was not just the the way that Drew. Has started Dropbox for that was he was on a bus and he lost his flash drive and he built this company and that was just very fascinating and so being able to study that but also my favorite part was, you know, I said I was able to sing karaoke with Drew Houston, which is one of my favorite things to do and so we started this strategy. I started off by listening as I always do I go around and I just talked to people about what diversity is what it isn't that one of the barriers and so we do a lot of listening sessions. A lot of data Gathering and came up with a strategy Midway through that. I got a call from Riot and decided to take the call because of the front of my friends is fine had joined Riot and started the cultural revolution and talked to her a lot. And it was a hard decision. I have to say to leave Dropbox on come to Riot and decide to come to Riot because two things one. I read the internet post that said, I'm sorry. We're sorry. And that a company which straight to I'm sorry that we didn't listen. We didn't hear was impressive to me. And I remember asking did Frances it comes to that or did the leaders do that? And the leaders did it they listened a lot? And so and then I got a chance to meet with rioters and saw the heart of Riot and really wanted to again to make an impact and a difference and the third reason was I you know was a part of Leadership team and in this role you probably important to HR but you're not on an exactly the same. So as I was saying no to write because I did say no and beginning. I'm an African-American woman. I never aspired to be on an executive team. And so I the purpose of me coming became bigger because I wanted other little black girls to be able to see me and be able to roll model that you can be there and you can Aspire so here I am never aspire to do it never thought it was possible and now I could be Role model for others who say yes, we can get to that point because what I know about this about diversity people want to see people that they can aspire to be and if you don't have that then you think that that's not possible for you. So I want to people to know that it was possible. Wow. That's a great story Angela. Thanks so much for that. And in terms of the question, I wanted to open with in a recent interview with venturebeat Mike morhaime. The founder of Blizzard talked about how blizzards greatest creation was its culture if I'm going to be really honest. And the majority of the target company seems to be very conceptual and does not actually seem to be more actual or practical. So from your perspective. Can you talk to us about how you Define culture at Riot and what you believe the actual impact is on a company's performance. I think culture is your calling card. It is your personality of your company. And you know, I think that culture will happen whether you know, if you don't even talk about it, you will have a culture by how you behave in a company. I think we're leaders have two CEOs and leaders. Were they have to be very deliberate about describing their culture and being very honest about what that culture is. So even at Riot there is if you ask leaders what the culture was it was very different than how writers would describe the culture. So you had a disconnect from that so part of it is how do you take what that aspiration or what the leadership defines the culture to be? How do you talk? About it from people who actually are living that culture. And and this is what you have to be very honest hold that mirror up and say are we what we think we are and that's a very honest and vulnerable place that leaders have to get to because to your point culture. We can talk about culture all day long. It is I measure culture about how people experience your company and if people are experiencing it they're going to give you in a way that brings out their best and they are agreeing with the way the company Running they will give you their best discretionary effort. If not, you know, I read this book that said it takes ten years to change a company culture. It takes one two, three, four individuals to change. So even if someone says our culture's our greatest asset we have to make sure that every Rider is in step with in a line with that culture. So you have to interview for it. You have to you know, make sure that you have process around it to make sure that you are all leveraging a shared norms and then as a person I can Decide what type of culture is best fit for me, right? So I know companies do their company cultures. They're going to work. You really hard going to pay you a lot of money and people can decide. That's the place I want to be but there are others who want people who are more compute. I worked at GE which had a very distinct culture and there are other cultures where people want to be creative and they want to be embraced. And so if I come into that culture and I'm very rigid I won't fit into that culture. So I think we have an opportunity to really be deliberate and decide and Define. And the model that so it's not one thing to say. This is our culture. But if the leaders aren't modeling that culture or Molly knows behaviors, then it's just kind of a conceptual thing. So you have to put meat behind what you think your culture is and you have to reward and sometimes carrot-and-stick. You're not applying to that right? And so could we go a little bit deeper on that aspect in terms of implementing the company culture. I mean in my own personal experience, it it often times implementation. Of culture is like, you know an HR slide presentation, which is $10. Somebody sticks a poster on the wall with 10 bullet points, and that's our culture. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about this implementation piece, which I think that a lot of companies is probably not very strong. Yeah, you know, it's what is one of those things where I think for the case of Riot we had to evolve the culture and so, you know when you and your probably ask me more about this like when you start a company And I'm glad I was able to be into tech companies now writes more entertainment exports, but you have people who are innovators. So they start off as very innovators and they want to be counter at least my experience. They want to be this free-flowing, you know, kind of we want to empower people. We want to just be free-flowing. We want to just be anti-corporate so to speak and so they don't want to have convention around that so they kind of just let Everybody kind of be and do and be entrepreneurial and then you grow and then you have to then decide what the culture is. So when I talk about companies who would and how you actually execute and you deliver on a culture. It is really not just saying here's who we are it is and world's on the wall it is how do I measure for that? How do I reward for that? So in Performance Management Systems, there's the what you delivered in terms of results and it's the how so Have a person who is really good at making a lot of money, but their sense of how is not endemic to the culture in the company has to have a real decision about in spite of the fact that this person is delivering on this if they're how is so counter to your culture. Then you have to make decisions. And I think that's what companies kind of fail a little bit where they don't put as much emphasis on the how than the what if that makes any sense. So if I am a salesperson I'm bringing a million dollars. But yeah, I'm a crappy person. And you now have to take a decision if that is what do you what do you value most and I would love for companies to Value the how exact value both because what happens is that people will see that and so whatever you decide you're cut your culture is if I see people who are being rewarded for not living up to those values, then I can't believe that that's the culture that you're subscribing to be part of. My job is the hardest is holding that mirror up to say, here's who you say you are but here Was happening and leaders have to be open to that and vulnerable to that as well. And so we do that here now right away. I see I have a lot of time more like yours who we want to be but here's who how we are. What do we need to do now and next and so what I also find is that when you sit in kind of that c-suite you experience the company very differently than probably the folks who are working there every day and so leaders being able to experience what their employees are experiencing and being open to To that is another disconnect. I think companies make when they start talking about their culture because they might think yeah, this is a great culture but they're it getting all the advantages of the culture. But if your employees are not experiencing the same culture that you are then there's a disconnect and you have to go in and figure out what that disconnected and then decide what you need to change and I think companies don't decide what they need to change right and also it seems like to get that consistency and to actually implement the culture. It sounds like it would really require. Pretty heavy commitment from leadership and from employees and could you talk about that what level of commitment is required to kind of implement culture at companies? So, you know, I think for me it starts with what your mission your mission kind of is the first thing that describes your culture and for us you want to be the most player Focus gaming company in the world, so that starts with and so if anyone's buying into that our employees and our writers have to be there and then once we decide Set the mission. What are the values in which we're going to operate? Like how are we going to hold ourselves accountable for how we operate how we connect and then it starts to Cascade into what are the objectives of the company? So I think all of those have to be lockstep to fulfill the mission. So I hope I answered the question that you asked but it has to be that leaders have to have constant conversations. So we use things like our employee surveys to Really kind of match us up between what we talk about culture do our leaders live up to our values. Are they committed to diversity? This is where you have to act on the what your employees are telling you we spent a lot of time at Riot listening and trying to Pivot and I don't suspect that it's hard because changing behaviors are hard you do it because you either want to or you have to either way. I like I got on the treadmill this morning. I didn't want to I didn't have to but I want to lose 10 pounds. So there's a choice that I have to make and so and I think when you want to change you and when you get into stress levels you go back to the way you were when you have to change you continue to move and I think for us, you know, whether we enjoyed the last year that article was a catalyst for us to change and we wanted to end we had to okay, you mentioned your mission statement, and actually maybe we could dig into That because if I'm being honest in my own personal experience, I'm not a hundred percent clear on how important or the value of having a mission statement for our company is and so, you know, you kind of mentioned, you know, the mission statement kind of drives a culture, but could you go a little bit more deeper into that? Like I personally can't remember the mission statement for a lot of the companies that I've been a part of people talk about how important it is. And so just to delve a little bit deeper on that awesome. You know, I think if you don't have a it's really your North Star and it's kind of your guiding principle. If you don't have a mission then why do we exist? So your mission is kind of your purpose. Yeah, and if I don't have a purpose then I'm not going to be focused on the policies and the processes. I need to achieve that now I don't think that I think that missions can change over time, but I think it is it is the thing. That is the singular thing that focuses everyone. To the end result, right? So I think they're super important because I have to but so if I don't believe if I don't buy into player focused then I can add value to this company and so it is my calling card and if I can't connect with the purpose of a company then how can I be successful and their company missions that I don't connect with it. I would never apply to do to to be there but I do think it's critically important because it's the it's the one statement that says Why we're here and what we're here to do. I do think they're overused but we try to stay back to it. And then we reinforced it here so that people know you may not know everything that's behind that but you will know this is what we're here to do. And so I think they're critically important and I think you should we as your look for work or look for a job. You should that's the first thing I look at like what is that mission of that company and then what are the values of that company and can I do I support those routes and then I talked to a lot of you about Is that really true do we really is that really the value of these do we hold true these values that we espouse to so I know they feel like words but if a company is using them well and it is really focusing people. I think it's a really gal is a way to Rally your employees to achieve your purpose. Okay got it. And so my final question before handing it over to Mishka is actually about drawing versus weak culture and in my own experience. There's often talk about strong. Or weak culture at different companies, but at least in my experience is not it hasn't really been defined. Yeah to go too far off topic here. But you know, I'm a football fan and one of the things said about the New England Patriots is that they have a strong culture. Yeah based on that culture. There are some NFL players with personalities that won't allow them to succeed at some organizations, but due to the strong culture of the Patriots and potentially be successful there and From your perspective. Can you talk to me about what you think makes or a strong culture at different organizations? And you know, what does that mean? And how can it help a gaming company? JK? We were all bonded to you set your Patriots fans on the I think the Patriots have strong leaders. Okay, and their leader is defined because if you ever I just saw I saw Bill press conference and they were asking about Antonio Brown. He was like not going there like he's just a strong leader and he has things in place that when you go there, you know what to expect from that organization and so he's built that culture and I remember I talked about earlier about you can decide what that culture is, and he has done that he is done that masterfully and it is why they continue to when I don't see color As binary as weak or strong culture is what culture is but it's not you can't have a strong culture. If you don't have a strong leader that is driving that and holding people accountable for their actions and their behavior. So, you know, I think he also is a smart strategist about how he goes about I say that not being a Patriot Patriots fan. I'm a Chicago fan, but I do recognize strong leadership. Let me say that and so You I would know when I went to the Patriots No Nonsense No Nonsense. I'm a be about the about playing and being good at my craft because I know what to expect and so that's the other thing about having a culture with strong leadership, you know what to expect and so I know I can't go there. No, I was I wouldn't use a difference strong culture and I would say Phil Jackson of the Chicago Bulls, but how he had a mission, but the other thing that happened with that team, Is that they all were focused on winning championships? So even in that culture you in my talk about Mission they were all rallied around winning this Championship. Now, I was I was in Chicago the time where we won those six championships. Yeah, Chicago Bulls and I would say I could not imagine Michael Jordan and Dennis Rodman being friends outside of work, but they all had a role to play for the success of the Chicago Bulls. Yes, and so it wasn't even about if there's tight friendships. It was about the strong leadership and how Phil Jackson was had the ability to to create a triangle office. So that Michael Jordan had to pass the ball or tennis Robin as you know, flamboyant as you might thought he was he was the best rebounder. He just let him rebound can try to change him. He just used those skills to meet that mission. Right? So I think that leaders defined that culture and bill has done a fantastic job. Of doing that even though he's with the Patriots. I would like to be a legend because the bears but yeah another time. Okay niska. Alright, this was this is fascinating to listen. I'm kind of like I'm excited to get to my part of it, but I was kind of just enjoying the talk and until you got to the other basketball and you would have talked about hockey, you know, like Blackhawks. I would have been all over Chicago. Oh, yeah, so I want to own a dive deep more into into the context around Riot and the culture there so many people of course know a lot about Riot and of course about League of Legends and The company and the game have a lot of incredible passion and devotion from its players and employees. So it was I think it was on a say that was surprising pretty much for everybody when they could talk more article inside the culture of sexism at Riot games by Cecilia the Anastasia came out and that kind of kicked off The Firestorm and the controversy of for the company as well as the posted that you mentioned where the company apologized from from pretty much from its employees as well as his players. So presumably you Angela Were brought in to help improve things at Riot since the Kotaku article and we thought about reaching out to you out to you when we saw the dry a blog post about your Reflections the other one year later and all of those articles will be linked in this podcast. So to be quite honest we were super impressed in that the post showed a very thoughtful and structured approach to the process that you took in in such a such a Monumental task. So let's so let's talk about this task and can you tell Gus sort of back to the day one wait you got the call and he mentioned you got the call from from Riot and the call was whether you would be interesting to join Riot and then I want to kind of hear like what was that like and take us through the the decision to join the company how you came up with the plan and how things are over there right now. So when I first got the call it was who because I'm not I don't play me. Me and so I'm I'm more of a board games person. So it was who is this? And what do they what is it was happening? Then I started to read the blog post and I started to read the Kotaku article and my initial response just to be quite honest was no I was a place that I loved. I was at a place where we were making traction and and I bought a new team And then Francis Pride who's a good friend of mine called and said I just want you to talk with him. And I said, okay, I'll do that and it was a it was a free trip to La so, you know I could do that was in San Fran the time and then I got to talk to the leaders and very candid discussions about what they learn who they were and what they what they thought why would they surprised because there was a lot of surprised that you know, I think the Kotaku article Raised a lot of we just didn't know we always wanted to be this great company and it was a lot of hurt. I think when I talk to leaders and so being able to talk with them and decide if they're ready because this could either have been I said this in the in the blog this could have been a catalyst to just change an industry and be a game-changer or it could have been a PR check the box and I hadn't really decide which one rare Riot was going to be and so when they talk to me about being a cautionary tale for the industry and being a leader in the industry and being able to learn from what's Happening when I heard the story of how Riot grew I became intrigued knowing that there was still some issues knowing that there were still some there was such hurt among rioters, but the heart of Riot that was great is that people fought to stay so you could have had like an onslaught of people just like screw this I'm out but people love Riot and they were passionate about making this Better place and even when I came I still felt that but I still felt the pain of not only leaders. I felt the pain of rioters and the distrust between the two like people felt let down and so I wanted to be part of the come back. I want to be part of the story moving forward if there was any way I could help I really wanted to and so it wasn't it was still hard to leave where I was and I think I kind of even turned the job down. But when I talk to rioters and I saw their faces that they really wanted to be a good company that they felt let down. I wanted to be part of the come back. And so that was my decision to pack up and and to come to Riot what learned in that space and I said this little bit earlier and is that when you are building something new and when I talked to the founders they wanted to build the best. Game four players that was their focus and they wanted people who wanted the same thing. I've got goes back to Mission. And so what we will cut we have brought in were people who all are incredibly focused on player experience. And even though we were going through some know we had some growing up in some Growing Pains the mission and the purpose still stay the same. It was why people raise their hand to to talk about this because they want it right to be better not they want to take right out. So when you Start from that point you can build so I didn't have to sell why we should change I didn't have to there was a lot of work going on from day one that I got to talk about. But that was happening right after Kotaku article hit there was a team that put together they did up incredible work over that past year. And so I got to be to come in and help manage it and talk about it, but the rioters really stepped up and the writers really To see change and so that was great to see and but I wanted to find out what leader stand in the way of that and the answer then and the answer now is no hmm. Yeah, and you've been I mean just reading through this article and then kind of seeing what's been happening. It's been a lot so you joined the company and midst of like changing leadership. There's rapid growth. There's organizational shifts and you come in on a public stage. I mean, this is one of the most interesting companies gaming companies. Out there and one of the most successful and you know, a lot of things have happened you brought in the experts you expanded the leadership team you facilitate a different external Partnerships with different foundations increase the diversity and two people processes and systems evolve the culture and kind of like one of the key questions. I mean, I have a list of questions for course, but uh, but um what it one of the one of the kind of like most important question for all of us who kind of were reading this is These kind of big changes these kind of rapid changes. Would they be happening without the pr like do companies need to have you know, kind of you know do wrong before before they see the signs or is this is this voidable incense? I think it's avoidable. If it's deliberate what I love about new companies coming up and I'm talking to be seized in the next couple of months. The first thing you should do is talk about sex. A couple you want to be and you can be very deliberate and kind of who you bring in not just friends, but just people who will give you a different perspective. And so when most companies that are startups they start off with people they know people they're comfortable with you can deliberately say I had a different perspective and you could and you could deliberately say, okay, I'm comfortable here. Let me be a little bit uncomfortable will companies do it. If not pushed. That's a great question. I do think You know for ride it was we already had a diversity effort. This was a catalyst to step it up. And again, you know when you're a practitioner like I am you want that way to be able to make change quickly and so, you know Riot need it to and had to make some changes and and we did, you know, there are other companies that say they want to do this and when you have to change behaviors, we have to change systems. They go to only To a certain point and so it is always been my hope that people see the value you can see diversity as either a barrier or an opportunity to do things greatly, you know, so I see diversity as an opportunity for business as an opportunity for talent or you can see diversity as something that I have to get over or I have to manage and that's and people what I know about humans is that they like to be comfortable so and this is an uncomfortable topic. And it's not it's not a task thing that if I do this, it's not a check the box. It's really about how do you embed this into everything you do and so right was ready to so when I when I came it was really about how is diversity or how does inclusion or hands of belonging impact business? How does it impact your process? I should be at the reason why I'm busy is that every decision that's made this company has a diversity lens to it from who we hire to our Champions to everything. Thing and so and it's one where I don't own everything but I have influence I should have influence on a broad spectrum of things. So I do think that companies at the heart of them if they do it if they do it just because it's the right thing to do which I think we all agree, but it's not a business case for doing it. I think it starts to get lost. So do I think that I can't speak for him. It would Riot deliberately while we ride head done this if they didn't get the Kotaku. I do think that that article was a catalyst for Change and maybe We needed at the time. So let's talk about the the change in how to drive it. I mean Riot has 2,500 people around the world. So it's not a you know, it's a small company but as a game company, it's gigantic changing company culture seems to be extremely difficult even in a much smaller company. So because it's so embedded deep within within everything that we do so in the article, you showed that Riot had this transparent. EA commitments and in created, you know, very clear milestones and transparent Milestones. So my question is is that the best way to move forward and if it is please do tell us why and then kind of like, how do we my questions? Like, how do you change culture? That's really the question, you know, I think the 30-60-90 day commitment was a way that were tactically we can kind of measure progress. I do think what gets measured gets done. That is the philosophy that I have. That to me putting those initiatives in place. That's the not the hardest part of this job is you know, because I'm I think what we're good at or what I love to do is to put the structures in place to support where we're going and so I am structured in that way the hardest part that what really made me extremely nervous two things one coming to Riot. I'm not I don't play league and I'm not to just what you did find as a traditional gamer. How would I be Accepted into the culture. How would I have credibility? Who do I would people say? Ah, why is she here would people say she's just here because of this so that was really made me a little bit nervous about how I would enter to the company so it comes back to me again listening to even though we had we listened to 1700 Ryan's the first thing I did was meet with a lot of riders will bring them together and they would I would say what do we need to do different? So actually are Strategy was built by rioters because you can't create that in a vacuum and think that you're going to change. I want to go into this document great. You do these three things, but it didn't relent relate or respond to what our writers need it. Then it wouldn't have felt authentic or organic for for them. So it is that the reason why we're so transparent which I will say and Joe who's with me here is our head of PR will say like we're probably more transparent than any company I've ever been The other it made me nervous here was that we were broken. I mean you could see it you could see it and it was heartbreaking to see rioters who love this company get deflated and I was very purposeful to how do we bring the ring everybody back together because that is what was broken and how you know, when you go through something like what we're going through you can have it could be very divisive and so my biggest His Focus was I didn't want us to be that I didn't want to be mean to each other. I don't know we have this thing called treat everybody with Grace and dignity and I asked once I said it Behavior changed. Hmm. Once I said, we we can disagree without being disagreeable. We must treat people with dignity and Grace and so even in our slack Channel you have people going in there going treat people with dignity and Grace because that's what it comes down to it comes down to kindness. You want to change a culture be kind be human be vulnerable. And yes, your people not just listen, but here and so I got a chance to hear the pain and be able to be on a leadership team where I could even though they may not have felt it the same way. I could be the person I could like we're in pain and we all have to change how we are acting particularly at a leadership level you now have to model you have to connect with people. They have to know you have to rebuild trust and that was the hardest part. How do we rebuild trust and Wait, look we're still a work in progress. We still we cannot take our foot off the gas. Not for one second. We cannot get comfortable with any progress. We made not for one second because it is has to consistently be deliberate. All the time is the beauty of I think the advantage of having this role sit on an executive team because I can constantly remind us what we need to do and we need them there, but I think we have a great solid plan and we test that plan. Do you see a How you feeling is going back to rioters? How are you feeling? I spent a lot of time with our young women talking to them about. You know, we had I think we had to walk out in May and that was like a month to for me and I had to decide what I go or not, and I absolutely would go because I had daughters and I was actually quite impressed with the courage to have voice and and I got to hear things and I got to hear experiences and as a result we And our code of conduct so we changed our romantic dating policy. And that was an immediate impact that people felt that people felt a little bit safe a little bit more secure a little bit like we are changing so you have to show the visible change. I think II was people don't leave companies. They leave managers and so are our managers equipped to lead teams and we focus on making sure that they have capability. We're putting together a Performance Management to hold them accountable for it. So there's an accountability point that you have to have You're changing culture as well. Like what are we accountable to do and how we hold it people for that old and holding them accountable for their behaviors. Not just their knowledge. Mmm. So you mentioned a lot about talking to to a lot of riders and you know slack as a great tools because because one of the things that that I think is, you know, I think culture is also baked into the vocabulary that the other people use in the company uses. Did you look a lot at to two languages the word choices and so Oh it starts at all. And did you see this change happening in the way, you know, then the words people use. Yes. So it's interesting. We are creative company and we're pretty loose in I'll keep in mind. Let me let me let me qualify this I hate from Finance where we did not curse it work. Like you just don't say, you know, throw a curse words in finance. You still do it and you kind of talk or everybody's like cursing and I can so like whoa. It was very it was very daunting at first but we also were losing our language about different things that know if you were coming into a company that you would say. Wow. This is how we speak and I had the challenge was how do I don't want to be the language, please like I don't but I do want us to be cognizant that what I might say to you Miss go or ujk may not be offensive. But what I might say To Joe might you know, I could say the same thing the Joe and because of how Joe is oriented. It might not feel good. So how do I regulate language in a way that we're being respectful and that's why we said dignity and Grace so I am used to certain words, maybe others are not and now we've tried to think about the language that be very purposeful about the language and making sure that we know who we are speaking with and that we are speaking about And that's still kind of thing that we have to think through because again, you don't want to be the language police but I don't want my creativity stifled because I'm hearing words that might feel like like they're my stifle my creativity but my fuel somebody else's right. So that's still the balance and I'm and writers are helping me figure that out. And at the other thing I think that is that is probably advantages for me is I'm probably one of the oldest people in the company. So if I say stop that language people, okay. But I have to come check myself too because you know, I may be a bit old-fashioned and so is this whole thing of language but there are certain things I said, we need to stay away from these things. But I've also giving people permission. I think we do this. Well, if something's offencive we ask you to raise your hand because sometimes you don't know what you don't know and so we got to get comfortable saying got to give people permission. We have to get people we have to be able to say we're going to make Sticks along the way and so if I make a mistake and I have a misstep if I if you attack me right away, it makes me with draw inward. So we have to say we're going to make mistakes, but we have to be able to check the language and it's really hard because for again what's offensive to some people may not be offensive to others, but it's always being aware of who's in your surroundings and making sure you are you are responsible as the communicator to make sure that people around you are comfortable and that's what we're trying to drive. Mmm. That's that's really interesting. So, um, let's take a let's take a step back step back or step forward and kind of look at the the impact on the business side because after all most of our listeners are are very interested in the business and actually culture is integral part of performance of the company. Yes. My question is more on our the new values. Are they helping to drive growth? Because after all League of Legends is heavily male driven game and this diversity and inclusion project is is it also broadening? Player Target group to include more women or is that being embraced in possibly the new project? There are possibly a mobile or anything. So here's our will say players want to see their stories reflect them. So in our Champions, we should be reflecting the stories of our players as we become more diverse internally and people are telling their stories or having that perspective. So, I start with the basis of talent if I have the best talent and that Talent is has ethnic diversity gender diversity left-handed people introverted folks. Then I can see that that will broaden my ability to tell the stories and it will broaden ability to have characters that are champions that are feel real for people. The biggest thing that was in the biggest example of that is when you know black panther came out one of the highest gross is and I got to see Look like me do credible things. And so I'm really really hoping that my pants are too does the same thing. So I think that same concept here that you will increase your your player base when people see first of all the games that are geared toward, you know my orientation and how I play different games and I think that's what gaming companies are trying to expand the games. I can tell you TFT, you know early indication is that well, we just launched a team fight tactics and it's a broader. It's a broader base and we're reaping the benefits of having a broader player base on TNT. So and that is a very diverse group of people who came up with that concept. And so the power of diversity is having those perspectives at the table and having people be reflective having the game be reflective of the players and I think we're with our diversity and the more people that we are able to bring in I At that will increase here's the issue. I think is that we typically we have to broaden our net to bring in more talent that looks different and so traditionally if you go to a gaming company certain people apply we have to as a company do more Outreach. So you see girls who code for us is about how do we build the future Workforce? Even if that's like a 10-year investment? I want more women coding. I want more women in art. I want more women. Oh that those stories can be reflected. So being part of the Town acquisition and leading that function I get to influence that so we have to go out and do Outreach to female Gamers and we have to go out and just women in general we have to go out and look at different communities. And so those are the things that we have to do to make the game better and to be and then to hit our mission being player focused. So we're doing things to teach people to teach people league and teach people the gay so I'm still Me too, and I'm left-handed. So you're better than me. I've given up I've given up too many times. So I have a final question regarding Riot and not even recording regarding Riot but Teague regarding this process of changing culture inside, right? Yeah that was interviewing rioters for the new values that actually have left the company. So as many listeners are probably going through and you know with their pen and paper making notes. So what they what they should be, you know thinking about when when improving their culture they're probably also thinking about should they be talking to people who have left? So what is your opinion on that? We do exit interviews for all Riders from leave and they have been very vocal about why they're leaving and we have specific questions around kind of culture and diversity in that and so we get to hear that but I also think it's important for us to You talk to people who are staying and to see how we make that experience better for them. So, you know, we we look at the exit interviews. I think that's really critical, but I have to say I focus more on how do I retain people and what will get people to stay and our strategy was really built on and there was a question I asked it was specific about was the one thing we can do to be taken and so that we could really come up with action and plans that would enable us and operationalize what I heard. Heard and so it is about current developments about wearing a career trajectory. So I want to make sure that we are asking those specific questions about culture about career about all those things. So our goal again is to be not only player folks, but we could also have just people have a great experience here and you know, we're still in the midst of that is something that is never done. Like we will always have to adjust will always have to keep listening. We'll always have to keep learning will always have to keep adjusting. Is not a it's very dynamic in his nature. And so I would say the company stay close to your your surveys ask your people. They will tell you what they need from you if you ask them and you made it safe and then they have to know it's one thing to talk about what you're who you think you are, but they have to see who you are. You have to mirror those behaviors because if you do it trickles down. Mmm-hmm. So um, yeah II understand agree. That's That's but so I have two more questions that I actually have a lot of questions. I have we have so many questions with be more inclusive. Let's talk about hockey a little bit more. That would be here sitting up north. We don't have football or basketball. So I wanted to I wanted to kind of like zoom out into a tech overall and you have your previous with Dropbox as well as with other Industries and Tech overall has this broke culture. That's that's kind of like the broader Tech and we all know and we've discussed the gaming could be a lot more diverse. Yes. So in all your experience, why is why is it so that we have this sort of a bro culture? Okay, so I'm going to go back to something. I said earlier in tech company in Tech and which is similar like a new industry tank at the opportunity to be diverse from the from the jump. They know you could have been very deliberate if they were thinking about it. Hmm, but it wasn't a thought what it was or what it was I think in my to interactions with stick with these companies is that you had very great innovators make it focus on making something great. And the had their friends which looked like them, right so and they started to hire their friends that look like them and and so in their mind, wow, we all are building this thing and Innovation. We have a great place, but we have a great place to work as they have defined it. Like what is great for me maybe different. What's great for everybody else. So then you start to have dissenting views. Right and when you get into a group and then you have one person saying let's do something different that person tends to get drowned out. So I think what text what what what started this kind of full bro culture is this comfortability with being around people, you know, and really trying to make something to really in your to also think about this is great because it is my lens of what great is and we didn't expand you don't expand what great is that? You start to grow in scale. So things start to grow really everything and you're you first, you know, the people who work with you then you know the 50 people but at some point if you are a really high performing startup you're going to scale and grow and at some point you need some processes to make sure that your equitable and so at what point do you think about that? And so I think with Riot we thought about it, we now had to scale it and now we are very deliberate about it. So if you're not deliberate about how you grow your company and your come at your focus on the innovation of the thing that you're building and you're learning to be a CEO, you learn to be a leader. It's always good to have someone I would tell have someone that getup HR person right away because that'll start to even if you don't meet the Process you need the thinking try to get disruptors in your group. Someone's going to keep you on as and keep you accountable and keep that lens on what type of company and what kind of company want to be and having redefined when we start to grow. What do we need to be doing around that and so it juncture you're going to have to take a step back and say what is the next phase of this company? Who do we need who are stakeholders? I think it's around just people being comfortable around people like them and they were this I can imagine I can tell You in a company to company that were and they were in there. There was one apartment that they were all in building this thing and so they got close and so when they start to build a company we start to go we should have three food and we should have all these things that we wish we had we went to a company but we didn't think about what type of culture we were trying to drive. We didn't they don't think about those things until you know, you grow and scale and then you have to then invite a different perspective and I don't think people are good at inviting a different perspective in because then That is really successful thing. So who am I to tell you should be different? And so I think you have to be very deliberate about who you bring it in making sure you have like a person that is a healthy disrupter. No pun intended. That is always going to challenge how you move and put process in place when you need it because you don't often think about those things. Awesome. Well, so I mean it's it's a it's probably time. We started bringing this home. We've been we've been taking your time forever and I'm looking at the time I want to ask you a couple of more questions and leave enough time for jk2 to give his final words. Okay, but you know as mentioned before the attack article was the Catalyst for right to take the needed action and invest significantly and to diversity and inclusion and a Triad, you know, it seems like things are have improved a lot and a lot has been made and there's Clearly be no dedicated focus and investment with you as well as with hiring of new people officer. So I have two final questions. I promised these are the two last ones. Yeah. So so questions for companies who want to do better. What are the sort of a real tangible steps that the leadership can take to improve the word culture and to create better people, you know employee environment, you know, I think it's when we started this, you know, at least when I When I came to Riot we talked about values a lot. And the one thing that I said is okay. What is the culture and let's just let's put on paper. What the cocoa I think people you don't have a culture statement in most companies. It's more this our culture. And so I think being deliberate about the culture whether you're there or not getting a room. I got a room with leaders and I'm like if you are in a subscribe the we asked a lot of questions describe the culture you want to be and I wrote it down. Because once I write it down and once I start saying is this it is this tonight and I would also listen for keywords that they would talk about. We want Grace and dignity was one we want to have fun like those another and how do I say this? Is this it once I can see with that culture is then you can start to say do the values connect that what do we need to do to ensure? So to ensure that everyone understands this buys into this and it's acting accordingly to do this. This and so I would say first thing right down your culture statement whether you're there or not, let it be aspirational and then you can say well we're not this yet. What do we do to get there where we don't have a lot of diversity. What do we need to do to do that? Are we treating people respectfully, what do we need to do to do that? And so that really kind of helped me understand the values and how the values fit into the culture we started with the values and I went back and said, okay, what is the culture and then it's reinforcing the Culture is reinforcing the behaviors that need to Aspire to that culture and we're still in the midst of that. So we're not in the complete cycle. So now we're thinking about how do we talk about our culture? How do we embody the culture? Who do we recognize if they're doing things that are if they're living the values how do you make the values live? So I would say that would be one I would also say be humble. And listen, I think when we hear negative things about ourselves, we want to be defensive right away, but I think you have to be Be open to the fact that my experience might be different from you. Right so you might think this is great, but my experience is not and so I have to be open to listening to wow. That's a different experience and be curious about how you fix it. It is not a check the box I hit I always I don't like to always go to these five things were going to do and this is a check the box they have to live because Riders will feel that if we're just doing a check the box exercise and we're just doing it to do it without understanding the impact. That was the thing. I would say no the impact of every action. So even in our 30 60 90 day, each of them have an impact our slate diversity. The impact of that is that we have more women interviewing for leader roles, and we're measuring that and so you have to also have to put account Lydia measures in place to just level set. I also use our associate survey employee survey. Sorry employee survey to challenge me and if I read every line and if I don't know, so if someone says that like we're not committed I will get a group together and say what does commitment look like to you and what do you need to see for us to move? And that's how I build the plan the strategy and I would say be there your people will tell you if they're like rioters. They will tell you what they're feeling and what they need. And I also think there's a the last thing I would say is you must be authentic. Hmm people will authentic leadership is the one secret weapon that you have because if you're not authentic people they know it and so I don't talk unless I can authentically say what I said, I know that I may be done in a company if I can't tell someone it's okay to come here that I can't I can't be good at my job. And so you have to be real when you have to be authentic. If you don't mean it, don't do it. All right. So let's just list of six that I got here is know that anybody should follow the next day as the listen to this is is right down to culture statement reinforce the the desired Behavior be humble and listen be curious how to fix problems be ready to be challenged and most importantly be authentic. That'd be a good place to follow. Old and I'm going to listen to a podcast like several times. So so before I let JK, you know wrap this up and to take his final word. I want to kind of like get both of you and agree on certain definition that definition is a gamer and and what I like to be for us is to be a little bit more inclusive because for example, I will use myself as an example. I play only mobile games and some of my peers don't consider myself as a gamer. In fact, the majority of the players who play mobile game who play games actually in the world our first mobile Gamers and secondly female that's just a fact so shouldn't gamer mean anyone who plays games more than once a week. Just asking you my peers. I say yes. I say that it could be multiple games. Like we talked about board games. I mean you talk about all games for us is important to have player empathy. So being, you know having some experience in you know, our passion around games really allows you to connect with our players, but it doesn't have to be a lie game. It could be, you know, anyone who's playing games and we had this really big debate when I first started about this board. A discount and I'm like, yes, it counts. Of course, it counts because a lot of games our strategy and so, you know teachers now the other thing that's interesting and again, I tell you I'm a little bit older I decided not I kind of told my kids not to play games which now I'm at Ryan I go go go play games because you know now playing games I see the strategy in it. Like I see that so I do think we expand the definition of gamer. I to be more inclusive. So we actually have done that here at Riot. So we have opened up and said, you know first we had it where you have to be kind of this kind of core gamer. Now some parts of our business doesn't require you to play games, but it requires you to be a Content expert or SME, but we want to know that you love that you love love games that you know, this is because it's part of our mission and so we have kind of said we don't as part of our interview process you leaders don't ask what type of games do. You play for instance and that's the change that we've made if it's something that's core to your your craft then it's still not what games you play. It's making a play and empathy. So we have questions around what people can and cannot ask so that we can expand that definition that we expended that very definition. Yeah. I remember there was a there was a time when Riot actually asked for your league level like level of I really really do remember that we don't do that anymore. I have been my main reason why I never even looked at anyway, / / 2J K. So hey Angela. Thanks so much for all of your time. But just in wrapping up. I remember at the beginning of the podcast you had mentioned a book and just for those in our audience who are more interested in this topic of culture and diversity. Are there any resources that you would recommend to help get better depth in this area there? It's so many books that I would recommend there is that my top three was a book called the difference and there's a old book that I used when I first got into this it was by Roosevelt Thomas who has since passed away and it was about it was the story of giraffes and elephants and it was like a fable tale about how we connect with each other. So that was a way that's another book that I've read and Those are all I can think of right now, but there's a book that's not so about diversity is about Neuroscience. Okay? Oh blind spots. So blind spots is another one because it really was a wake-up call about how our brains work and how our brains process things and how we think you know things that we don't really know. So for people who are really about into who think about diversity intellectually. That was a really good book for me to read got it. And so final question was, you know, miss you and I as he and earlier were really impressed by your Reflections blog post. And so just wondering can we expect to see more updates in terms of Reflections and sort of updates in terms of what's happening at Riot from you on the right block know I talked about this earlier with Mishka about Lego being transparent. So yes, I mean, I think we the good news about when you're transparent you have to do it like so--you once you put it in right like you have to drive to it. And so yes, I think we will continue to do that. I like I get we're still Work in progress. No, we're still trying to find our Rhythm. We still are going back to rioters. You know, my biggest goal here is to just not have this hashtag that I'm trying to launch this as together. We are right to just bring us back to fun and games and but also making sure that we're very serious about that. We don't go backwards right that we're serious about, you know, our investigation process that we have processes in place that allows us never to have to be here again and not to say that will Be perfect and we would but I said this in my blog post every day, we commit to be better every day. We commit to learning and I just look forward to seeing rioters do their best work here and stay with us. So yes, you would. Yes, you will see more. So to close this out. Just want to give a final shout out to Paul. Bellezza Cochran Gasper extraordinaire and from deconstructor a fun perspective our favorite writer also if you're a queen, JK first the papers now. I'm not your favorite Ryan with you guys. That's fantastic. Thank you so much, Angela Angela. Thank you so much. All right folks Joe if you liked this episode. If you if you like the video, please do please do ratos put in some Stars. We appreciate those a lot they help with Don't worry, and please do subscribe no matter what podcast now no matter where you get your podcast to subscribe to deconstruct for fun search. It find it scribe will be coming up with more content like this and getting deeper into interesting topics in games business and not to forget this week in games where we analyze the latest and news and gave are taken and a little deeper inside. In the news, so without further Ado. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll catch you later. Bye.
Riot Games got hit with a tsunami in the form of the infamous Kotaku article Inside The Culture Of Sexism At Riot Games. The article was followed by several people writing publicly about their own experience with the company that underlined the same story and signalled a clear message - Riot’s culture needed healing. The person who took the ownership for leading the healing process was Angela Roseboro who joined the company as a Chief Diversity Officer & Talent Acquisition Lead little less than a year ago. And in such a relatively short time Angela and her team have had a massive impact showing not only the work they put in but also Riot’s willingness to accept and transform. You can (and should) read about all the initiatives and actions Angela has put into motion in this incredibly insightful blog post she wrote Riot Games One Year Later: My Reflections. In this interview with Angela we talk about a sensitive but critical topics, which include Company Culture & Diversity in gaming companies today. And just to be clear we want to not just focus on the Diversity & Inclusion topic, which many folks in the media tend to focus on. Thus during this interview we will also talk about Culture more generally and the profound impact of culture on an organisation. 