Welcome to the women in sport and exercise academic Network podcast. I am your host doctor j keep aside and also co-founder of the network. The purpose of the women in sport and exercise academic network is to grow strengthen and promote research on women in sport and exercise with the ultimate goal of optimizing women's athletic success and their participation. With these podcasts we wish to bring you information from leading academics who are researching about women in sport in exercise and provide you with advice and support for the exercising female. Please remember our disclaimer that the opinions content and recommendations contained within our podcasts are for general information only and should not be substituted for medical advice treatment or diagnosis. In this episode. Dr. Lucy pigott talks about her PhD on gender equity in sport governance her advice. She has for organizations and individuals to Foster gender equality and also her current research projects and activities. Dr. Lucy Pickett is a research fellow at the University of Chester. She has recently completed a doctorate looking at gender equity. Take within English sport governance in her current role as research fellow Lucy is working with internal and external colleagues to develop research on women and Sport Lucy sits on the operational Management Group for the Anita White Foundation, which aims to combine scholarship and activism for women and Sport. She is also coordinator of the women's sport Leadership Academy which offers a residential for women's sport leaders. He's so that they can further develop their leadership confidence and competence. I've got Lucy pigott here today with me. I'm going to start talking with you Lucy about your work from your PhD. I know a little bit about it, but could you tell me a little bit more? Yeah, for sure. I fancy a thanks for having me and I supposed to start with the background for why I conducted This research essentially. It's because there's a continued lack of women with in leadership positions within English for governance, but also across the world. So my research really look too. The stand more at an in-depth level some of the gender power relations that are happening within sport organizations that continue to reproduce these gendered Trends where men are dominating with in decision-making positions in sport governance. So what I did was I conducted interviews with board members executive leaders middle managers within two national governing bodies England golf in the lawn tennis Association. So two large established. the governing bodies also conducted observations within their to headquarters and that was observing General organizational practice, but also key events such as board meeting strategic meetings departmental meetings and so on so that observation of element was actually really really useful not only for the observations that I saw and analyze but also to develop that Rapport and and you get General organizational knowledge, so I was really trying to And within the two organizations what the gender representation was how many men and women on the boards and executive leadership teams? And then what is happening within the organization's at different levels of organizational practice to understand why these Trends keep occurring and did those observations that were you were making did they match up what the individuals were saying or was sometimes there are a bit of a mismatch. Generally it did match up. I found that individual seem to be pretty honest with in their interviews, which did surprised me somewhat because some of them were quite hope high-profile individuals within the sport. I found that generally the male interviewee is because I interviewed both men and women which was really important to me because if men are those with in positions of power and that men are those that are dominant than obviously we need to understand their experiences and perspectives. So sometimes I found that the men seem to deem organizational culture in particular is being a More gender neutral or a bit more positive than the women suggested or observations suggested but generally it was aligned fairly. Well between the interviews and observations. Yeah, and have you been able to use any of these findings to provide recommendations for people? So that's where I'm at at the moment. I my PhD was officially signed off in April of this year. So I'm a few months down the line and I'm currently writing up reports for the the two organizations that are talking about the key findings, which I can talk about in a moment. So they're sort of accessible reports specific to the organization's. I'm also going to develop reports for sport England UK Sport and women in sport so that those organizations that are actually producing the governance code producing strategies and policy and so on that my research can be used there and I've also had a few organizations that have got in touch with me because they've heard about my research and they're in Should to see how I can essentially do a similar thing within their organization to improve gender Equity within leadership, but also organizational culture more widely. So I'm having some conversations with a couple of ndb's at the moment around that and you said you're going to talk about your findings what findings then did specifically you come up with that. We're insightful. Yeah. So there are three broad findings. I suppose that that I found in the first unfortunately was Unsurprising in that I found that sport governance does continue to privilege men and masculinity and it continues to normalize in naturalize men with in leadership positions and the second the second broad finding is that these privileging of men and male domination. It was very multi-layered. So it happened at all levels of organizational practice. I looked at firstly the macro structural level. So things like formal rules and processes such as Governance rules recruitment processes election processes and so on and found that they both directly and indirectly privilege men an example of that was England golf at the time of research. They had a rule where of the 13 board members 10 reflected from the council and of those ten elected directors six were always women. Sorry six were always men and four were always women and that was to reflect gender Trends in participation within the sports their Europe but if you're going to enforce rules where you've got six men and four women straightaway that creates a gender imbalance and so that's an example of quite a direct result of microstructures and then the mezzo cultural level. I found that there were informal organizational practices that reinforce this naturalization of men and masculinity with in leadership positions are examples of that was gendered language such as the position of chairman or the chair of the organization was referred to as Chairman and straight to a researchers suggested that if you're saying chairman someone automatically thinks man, another example of that was that at the lawn tennis Association when I was researching they were currently recruiting for a CEO at the time and in some meetings people were saying when the new CEO gets in he will do this and he will do that and there was absolutely no clue at that point who the CEO was going to be in that it was going to be a man so you can see that the gender language within the organization. Is just normalizing that leaders are or will be men and other things such as gender dress codes expectations around working practices and so on some of these informal practices and then at the micro individual level, I found that generally men had more opportunity to accumulate power through their cultural social and also physical beings and selves. So an example of this was that women leaders that I spoke to actually felt that they had Physical presence or authority and power as Leaders than their male counterparts and that could be through their physical stature being physically smaller in size than men which made them feel like they had less physical Authority across a room and also women spoke about their picture of their voice. So if the man has got a lower voice, which on average we know that men do have lower pitched voices, then it's generally seen as being more authoritative than a female voice which is on average higher pitch so you can see how That these issues they're not at any one level. There are actually occurring at all levels of organization or practice which means that when we're looking at strategies to change organizations to and to make them more gender writable. Then we also need to address. These are all of these different levels of practice and at the moment there's a lot of work being done at the structural level around governance codes quotas targets and at the individual level around the development of individual women leaders, but we're work really needs to be done is at that cultural level looking at Informal organization practices that's really yet. The next stage. Is that possible then to change that cultural perspective. So if you were a consultant for instance to a governing body within sport, how would you implement that change to ensure that change occurred in the cultural domain? Yeah. It's a really tough one and Coach is really tough to challenge because of its very deep-rooted nature and it's that old traditional thing of we've always done it this way and that's always really dangerous thinking and us as human beings don't like to change but I do think that there are ways in which we can start to change organizational culture and I think the first step in this is increased awareness and reflexivity to start with because not everybody within organizations is even aware of some of the problematic practices are not aware that some of it happens and secondly, they're not aware at times the problematic results or outcomes or votes. Distance so things such as the word chairman. It wasn't until I had these conversations with some of the individuals that they realize the impact that that could have informally and subconsciously. So I think that's the first stage and then the second stage I think is creating this organizational buy-in because essentially if we're going to change practice and change culture in organizations need to place higher value on alternative practices because if you don't value change more highly than what you're currently doing then you've got no, Motive or Reason to do something and I think two ways in which we can increase organizational by it to enable organizational cultural change is Lincoln gender Equitable practice and gender Equity within leadership with organizational targets values and performance because if we can evidence of a stronger link between gender equity and an organization that embodies the values that it wants to and also increases its performance and I think organizations going to have it. Much greater chance to and motivation to change what they're doing at the cultural level, you know often we kind of sit here as individuals though. And I know you said there are quite a few things that has been done at the individual level and it's a culture shift that's needed. But that is so hard. Like you said it Demands a lot of buy-in like you say, it depends everybody to be interested in making that change. So if you're sitting there in a company and you feel that you want want to sway somehow people's thoughts and feelings and opinion and culture. Is there anything that you can do if you're sitting there as somebody who's not a leader but working in an organization is anything you can do to shift that culture? I think a big thing and it comes hand in hand with culture is creating a safe space firstly for individuals to feel that they can make change and they can stand up for themselves and they can call things out because I think if we're going to is that thing with if you finish a meeting everyone needs their coffee cups, if you're the first person you'll make a fist and right. I'm going to pick up my coffee cup and I'm going to people then follow because they see what you're doing. They see. Oh, yeah, actually that is the right thing to do and they do do so, so it needs people to be the first people to pick up the coffee cup, but you also need a safe environment because some of the women that I spoke to saw the that feminism was in congress with popularity and Social Capital so they felt like it was a away at between either standing up for women and being actually unpopular and being seen as a bit of a pain in the backside or actually just putting that to one side not rocking the boat, which was the time that I heard quite a lot don't Bang the Drum don't The boat because the way that we can actually move forward is by women getting leadership positions and being Role Models. So I think for women they feel like they kind of have to pass that they can take so it's that feminists. I suppose the standing up fighting for right side of things or it's actually quietly getting on with their job doing the job well and then leading the way for other leader for other female leaders, so I think there's two ways that people can look at it and I think there's from what I have understood from the people are speaking to you there. Different opinions on on which is the most effective and I suppose I don't have the answer but I think we need a bit of both and you do some of this work as part of the women's sport Leadership Academy. Is that right? Just your research feed into that in terms of how you can promote better leadership competence within women. Yeah. I think I mean my research specifically, I mean this we had the women's Leadership Academy the week after that. Stram to it was the 16th to 21st of June and I conducted a session around my my research and some of the participants were interested in that but the the Woman's World Leadership Academy started way before I even did my PhD it first started in 2014, and we've had six residential week since and it's a program of the you need to wait Foundation, which is based here at the University of Chester. And it essentially the mission is to provide opportunities for women. Leaders to develop their confidence and competence As Leaders of sport and to step up and really make an impact essentially. So although I was coordinator of Whistler 2019 and I sit on the organizing committee and so on. So yeah, my research certainly has it has some impact but there's a big a much wider team around me of amazing women leaders themselves who are essentially leading the facilitation and the deliberate Over which that as we determine if people want to get involved with that either by attending one of the residential's or even by helping out maybe on delivering a session how would they be able to do that in terms of participation? We will send out the call for applications. I believe it would be September October of this year. So that will be going out and it's for any women that work within sport. Organizations and their in middle or senior leadership positions or management positions and we have certain criteria around that but that can all be found on the website for the women support Leadership Academy. So if you Google it, then you come to the website and more information can be found there in terms of delivering the sessions. We have a call facilitator team for each residential week and that's made up mostly of people who have actually graduated from the women's sport Leadership Academy than Outside the academy isn't just the residential week, but it's also facilitator training networking. So we've got a network now of 283 women from 52 countries that have graduated from Whistler, which is a statistic that we're really proud of and that's women both within Sport and Sport for development. So we've got a real growing network of these women leaders and generally the facilitators come through the program itself. So it's a further development opportunity because we see that the development of these women leaders doesn't stop them the program ends, but it keeps happening through CPD and networking and then the opportunity to be a facilitator so offering one of session it's not really something that we do if somebody's interested in being the facilitator of the whole week then we'd certainly be interested in having a conversation but it's really about developing relationships across the week between the facilitators and the participants within a really safe environment and we feel like if we have lots of people coming Different people throughout the week that that safe environment is potentially jeopardize the bit with the Anita White Foundation is that embedded up to Chester is that part of what the University of Chester is about or is it equally as outward-facing it's both so it's located within the university. It's part of the University within the Institute of sport and it's made up of essentially those that are on the operational Management Group myself. Dr. Jordan Matthews who's a senior lecturer at the university. The chair elects is dr. Susie heavily who's also a senior lecturer at the University and then dr. Anita White herself sits on your facial Management Group, and we also have a student action team. So we embed students within the work that we do they help with fundraising Social Media communication spreading the word across the student community. So on but really what we aim to do is combine scholarship and activism for women in sports. Obviously that scholarship element is really strongly linked to the university in some of the work that I'm doing as a research fellow some of the research we've got an archive that's based at the University. We need to wait Foundation archive that's basically documents the history of the women in sport movement and including the international working group Four Women in sport. So we hold a lot of documents around their history. The development of the women's sports Foundation now women in sport and we're very open for anybody interested in the women and Sport movement and women in sport activism to come and visit the archive and then we offer or is a secondary focus is education development of women leaders and Scholars. So the women's sport leadership is the key Flagship project to the you need to wait foundation. And then we've also got things such as Catalyst grants which we offer to graduates of the academy. And there's small grants for them to go off and develop their own programs to enhance the experiences of girls and women in sport in their own country or Zone organization. And then we have some other online projects that we're working on that link to the archive which are around preserving the heritage of women in sport. One of those is led by my colleague Jordan Matthews. It's a timeline for women in sport which documented the history of key events around hundreds of sports within hundreds of Trees. It's a really amazing resource. And then I've LED on the development of an online resource called the change makers which is celebrating the life and work of key women and Sport Scholars and activists in the field and Professor. Celia. Breckenridge was Arthur's changemaker that was celebrated. Are you going to add more to that then? Yeah, we're in talks at the moment with the international working group Four Women in sport around how we can further develop that and it's just looking at resources to do so both in terms of time. Time and financial rules Luther you speak so eloquently about these things. So I'm sure you'll be able to make a big hit in terms of working as a consultant for instance for businesses on leadership and gender equality because you just speak so naturally, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks very much. And that's definitely something I think that most researchers want to try and create impact and apply their research and that's something I'm really passionate about. So thank you very much that there's much Appreciated well lovely speaking to you. Is there anything else that you would like to add that? We've not may be covered? No, I think that's everything. I think just for everybody to look out for for the call for applications for the next women's sport Leadership Academy, but other than that, I think we've covered everything excellent. Thanks very much. Thanks Jackie.
Dr Lucy Piggott is a Research Fellow at the University of Chichester. Both her research and applied activities are focused around women and sport. She has recently completed a doctorate looking at gender equity within English sport governance and used a multi-method approach of semi-structured interviews, participant observation, and an analysis of supporting documents to understand the workings of dominant gender power relations within two large English national governing bodies of sport: England Golf and the Lawn Tennis Association. Using Pierre Bourdieu’s theory of practice as a theoretical framework, she found evidence of simultaneous conservation and resistance of practices that privilege and profit male leaders. She recommends that resistance to male-dominated sport governance needs to occur at all levels of sport organisations (macro/structural, meso/cultural, and micro/individual) to enable sustainable change. She also suggests that gender equitable governance should be linked to organisational values and performance to provide motivation for organisations to make change. In her current role, Lucy is working with both internal and external colleagues on research ideas, proposals and bids across a range of topics. In addition to her research activities, Lucy sits on the Operational Management Group for the Anita White Foundation (AWF), which is a part of the University of Chichester and aims to combine scholarship and activism for women and sport. The AWF has three key areas of focus: the education and development of women leaders and scholars in sport, preserving the heritage of women and sport, and research and scholarship. The primary project of the AWF is the Women’s Sport Leadership Academy (WSLA), which has a its main component a residential week held at the University of Chichester for women working in middle to senior sport leadership to develop their confidence and competence across a range of leadership behaviours. Lucy was coordinator for the 2019 Women’s Sport Leadership Academy which saw 36 women from 19 countries attend the residential week. WSLA has also run programmes in Botswana and New Zealand. Excluding WSLA 2019 participants, WSLA has a global network of 228 women from 41 countries who have graduated from a WSLA programme. In this episode, Lucy talks about her PhD on gender equity in sport governance, her advice she has for organisations and individuals to foster gender equality and also her current research projects and activities. 