If you're listening to this you obviously like podcasts and you probably like music to on Spotify. You can listen to all of that in one place for free. You don't need a premium account on Spotify. You can follow your favorite podcast. So you never miss an episode download episodes to listen offline, wherever you are easily share what you're listening to with your friends via spotify's Integrations with social platforms, like Instagram Spotify is a huge catalogue of podcasts on every topic including the one you're listening to right now just search for empty frames on the Spotify app or browse podcasts in your library Tab and follow me. So you never miss an episode of empty frames Spotify is the world's leading music streaming service and now it can be your go-to for podcasts to On March 18th 1990 the most audacious art Heist of all time took place at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum in Boston. Check out season one of empty frames for a 12-episode dive into the Gardner Heist this season, we will be exploring other art crimes and significant moments in the art world before returning to the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. This is empty frames. Welcome back to empty frames. I'm Tim here today in the crawlspace studios in worm town with Lance. What's up Lance? How's it going Tim? It's going well today and Lance's, you know. Is our season 2 season finale and what a great way to go out. First of all, it feels really good to be here. Yeah in worm town and our little black box and we were joined by the muddy river fact Checker and he sat in front of the mic and he got into some of the details that have been sort of working us a bit about the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum Heist and Shirley irking him. He has been mentioning these things and and tweeting about them and we Really get into the mine. Usha here Lance of two moments in particular, right? I think we couldn't have done any more than that because getting into the minutiae might be putting it lightly. The muddy river fact Checker is an extremely detailed individual and we get into the crime scene photo of Rick abbath who is duct-taped and handcuffed down in the basement of the museum and we go through the details of that photo really pick it apart and yeah question why and how For the most part and check out these photos in the show notes and we'll try to put them on our social media and such as well. But the photos are really weird it you see some of the positioning of the duct tape. It's it's sort of weirdly wrapped around his head and then there if you really look into it, there's these things around where he's sitting like a knife that's odd have a little knife near where this guy is tied up and and open pocket knife. That's just one of the many questions that the muddy river fact-checker raises and to find these answers. I mean, we don't really know any of these answers because we haven't spoken to obviously the people who taped him up or to Rick Abbott's so but the questions are raised and it's something that I think if anybody is interested in the heist will realize that they've had these questions as well. It's just you needed someone to say well, why is it this this way, right and the second part of this chat with the muddy river fact Checker or muddy as we call him is we go into the mine. Ooh. Sure, once again on the night before video and this video was recorded the about 24 hours before the heist took place on March 18th, 1990. And this is like a security video that happens outside the Gardner Museum and then you can also see a couple of the guards inside the museum and again, it raises some questions why it was released when it was released and what's going on in the video itself. And the irony is that we call him muddy, but he actually does the opposite. He's trying to clear up the the mud. He's trying to clear through the muck. So we really hope you enjoy this conversation. It is as detailed as it gets you need to check out the video and the picture and stay tuned to the very end. Listen to what we talked about and stay tuned to the very end. We give an informal review of the sister podcast to the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum Heist last scene, so it's an informal review that you're You want to hear? Okay, so that's it for season two Lance enjoy this conversation and we will see you in a few months for season 3. All right, welcome back to empty frames. We have a very special. Guest in studio today it is the muddy river fact-checker somebody who checked in with us several times over the course of season one and gave us all sorts of nuggets of information if there was ever a question as to a detail or some part of the investigation or even a theory the muddy river fact Checker was there for us. So thank you, sir for being here nestled here in the crawl space 2D. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you guys and work with you guys on it so find someone else who's interested. Yeah, thanks a lot for really helping season 1 and for your continued help throughout the course of this podcast. So we really appreciate it. Thank you why such interest in the case? I stumbled onto something that was related to the case and people that I thought might have been involved. And so then I started looking for looking at all the evidence and trying to fit in and didn't conveniently fit into what the narratives were going that we're going on at the time in terms of who did So I decided to look into it more and try to see if I could really I would have been relieved to eliminate the people that I thought were involved but I wasn't able to do that and then I kept looking closer and closer and and then I found that it's kind of a rich topic and there's a lot of history involved and the more I looked and sometimes I would really look and I would see something different. So for instance with the crime scene photos, which I guess we were going to talk about. Today the first thing that hit me was I don't think the crime scene photos have been in the public domain for that long. I think maybe around 2013 or so. Ah, so but I'm not sure but that's pretty much when I see them showing up and prior to that. They would people would say, oh the guards were gagged or you know, they were manacled or different things and and people didn't question it. Well, you didn't really have a picture to compare it with and see you know, if that was what you saw was what was being Reported and I wasn't really that skeptical about it, but I am eat. But the first time I remember looking at it was in closely was in 15 around the time of the anniversary and it was the photo that's taken from a bats left side and you can see that he's smiling and the smile struck me as being similar to I don't know if you know there was another case the Charles Stuart case about six months previous. Yeah, and that was a case where Charles Stuart killed his Wife his pregnant wife and shot himself in the stomach and I remember prior to it coming out that he had actually done it. He claimed to have been a victim and she had shot himself in his in the stomach and gave his brother to the gun. Right so and there was this Harold photo that was quite famous at the time of tabloid photo. Remember seeing it in the Boston Herald and it showed him in the car being rescued and I remember thinking that his face didn't look right that there was a smile on his face and and I also if Look at that crime scene photo of a bath. He's smiling so I can kind of imagine the photographer saying oh big smile, Rick and Rick smiling, but given the fact that he he supposedly being there for seven hours. But but I was already looking at this as someone who's suspicious. I just want to interject real quick, you're saying that he's smiling but he still has the duct tape wrapped around from his chin up over his the top of his head and then around his nose to the back of his head through his hair. It looks it's like a like a medieval mask, right? He's wearing and he's smiling through that. So when you give the hypothetical that the photographer says, oh smile Rick, I would probably if I was in Rick's position and I've been there over night. I would probably go. Hey, can someone get the goddamn duct tape off my face first, right? Right. So I think it's a good be smile. Maybe he's smiling through gritted teeth. Maybe. Yeah like he's come on motherfucker. Yeah. I think I would think he would be kind of it would be sort of a weary smile. Yeah, right and so it never It never occurred to me that so I'm looking at that I'm going I don't really think that doesn't still seems a little long incongruous that he's smiling that that but then never thought that wait a second. He doesn't have any tape over his mouth. He could have he could have actually spoken. I probably probably didn't occur to me till a couple of years later that just having a piece of tape wound around your jaw does not make it so that you couldn't speak and he's not in any sense gagged. It's a really bizarre formation. I think we talked about this a little tape. Right, the the duct tape on Abbott's face and head is very very strangely you instructed. I would say I've never seen anything like that. I wouldn't imagine anybody who is gagged and duct-taped to come out like that. Like it just doesn't doesn't compute to me. Well, it doesn't have any function from for doing what it's supposed to do except for right? It's not covering his eyes. It's really if you look closely it's really there's more covering his eyes. Well, he has one strip the piece that goes around his jaw is One strip and it really only just barely makes it around to one time. So I mean if you just worked your jaw a little bit, so I really find that and it's also very smooth. So I find it doubtful that first of all, it has no function really in terms of like keeping them quiet and it doesn't look like it is he's been had that with that smooth tape that he has moved his jaw and that it's actually been on there for 7 hours. Yeah, that's a good point. And there's it looks like and I don't know. It looks like down here. Maybe that's his shirt or down by his chin there. You see that little piece of gray. Is that his shirt or is that a piece of the duct tape? That could have been around his mouth? I'm like, I've always yeah, I'm not sure what that is. That looks like kind of like maybe a caller he had an extra piece of duct tape. Oh, no, I think you're right. I think it's probably the shirt. It could be either. No, I don't think it is the tape. I think it might be more of the shirt that's coming through. But if you're there for seven hours, you know and giving them the benefit of the doubt then you would like I said kind of adjust it yourself. Even if you couldn't get your hands out. You would move your jaw you would so I could see like it not looking the way in this photo that it looked when the person put it on him. Like maybe the one that goes around and is kind of covering his nose in the photo originally started by covering his eyes. Okay? Well, let's take a look at that as if you look at the other photo the tape that's covering his eyes. Sorry to interrupt. This is from the right side. Yeah. Yeah, it goes underneath his ear now. If you were going to put tape over somebody's eyes and the purpose was to put our you wouldn't go under their ear. You'd probably make sure you had a good seal over the top of their forehead and then wrap it around that probably hook it over the ear. Yeah over the year take it in. Yeah or across doesn't but not but I mean putting it under the years not really a sincere attempt at covering the eyes. And in fact, he says that he could see well, yeah, and he claims that because of the Heat and Perspiration from the boiler that the that the tape had gone down but it goes down uniformly and if you and it never really goes above his to his to his forehead. So really if you put tape across somebody's eyes. I mean, I think if you were doing that you'd want to stay away from the eye area. It's okay. And so to me, it just looks like a very honest and sincere attempt at covering his eyes Lance Let's get you a wig. Let's get some duct tape will go to the boiler room right across the hallway. We have one. We have one will set you there for about eight. Eight hours. What song do I have to hum? I will he says it was I will be released but I think it was you can't touch this bye-bye because I was climbing the charts, right? Yeah. I'm game give me 14 years to grow hair like that. It will just get a wig. Well, how about a simpler one is just putting the tape. I mean after seven hours he has his feet his to sneakers are touching and he has tape around his ankles and the pants are still crimping from the tape. Now, I think after seven hours of sitting there you would you know, Someone who's a wrote, you know in a band and it's 23 years old and works to security and is reasonably strong legs can put could be able to stretch that tape out so that it would if you to put your legs together like your feet together like that it would sag. Yeah, it wouldn't just be able to crimp. I mean you would think he'd be trying to like free as legs are just be able to move his legs. I'd like to get back to the duct tape on his head for a sec. Okay, it does seem like a completely useless use of duct tape, and I'm It almost reminds me of like a Naked Gun movie where they tell them to, you know, tape up the tape up this guy and then they use all the tape on the wrong parts of them. Like they really focused on his nose more than anything. Well, my theory is that not that they focused on is knows is that he taped himself. I mean it would be take a lot assuming if someone was involved in the so that's the thing is like you say, okay. Let's examine the possibility that he was involved if he was involved. Would he trust someone who's robbing the Gardner Heist to tape himself? I would take a lot of leap of faith. I'm not sure I could trust anyone never mind a robber to tape me up like that. And the other thing is then why then he has to be taped up for seven hours or five hours from when they left whereas if he waits until morning than he has the advantage of not having to endure the discomfort of being tied up. Yeah. I'm with you that I think the the head formation of the duct tape. Let's start at the top. Okay, right. I think that is suspicious, but I can't really say that. It's suspicious past a level of this has been on for seven hours, you know, so starting their I will say the top of his head the his hand is inconclusive in my mind. Right? Well, if you look at the overall effect on the other photos, well, yeah. Well, yeah, let's let's keep moving bright. Okay on his body before we go on. Do you want Lance? Can I get an answer from you? What do you think based on the head? Is this suspicious is you think this is well. I mean we've never Looked at the tape in such detail with anyone and we have the muddy river fact-checker here. So this I don't want to say it suspicious and and say in any way that Rick had something to do with the heights itself. But like I said before it is a very useless application of duct tape if the purpose is to conceal yourself or why would that be around his head? Anyway, they've already seen him. Yeah. I mean Rick is already seen the the thieves. Well, let's not let's not move past the photo. Let's just stick with what we look like breakdown just the photo like based on that because I don't want to jump like, oh this means he's guilty or something like that. I don't want to go that far with it. Okay. We'll just looking at it from a holistic view. How would this photo look different? How would Rick look different if he had only been in that situation of tape and handcuffs for seven minutes instead of seven hours like that doesn't seem to be any kind of entropy has gone on at all. Forget from seven minutes to seven hours is his shirt is still seems to have a crease in it. Supposedly he was you know near a boiler and that was sweating and well, he doesn't he look seems to work fairly comfortable and not to shoveled in any way. I've looked more disheveled driving here. I think than he does. I mean, that's just so the thieves left his mouth open, right so he can breathe and sing. I shall be releasing his nose is kind of covered, but we're unsure here if that happened. Like after he was slippage, right, right. We are kind of theory. I think here was that it probably started at the eyes and maybe slipped down to his nose, but that doesn't make any sense to cover. If you're a robber doesn't make sense to cover. The guys knows what he's in the basement. He's not watching you guys do this and he's already seen you. Yeah that that to he's and he's secured to write be right in front of that the control panel there or the electrical box panel. Well is he Quest is he secured as a quest where we haven't gotten there? Yeah. So let's go. The piece of tape that goes around his nose and kind of around his eyes is completely useless. We're all agreeing to that. Yeah it maybe you could make it so that he couldn't breathe through his nose, but I don't see why that's a problem for the crooks in terms of the crooks. They would want him to make you know, maybe try to make it so he couldn't hear or speak or see and they have failed in all of those. They weren't trying to kill him, you know, right and they would have gagged his mouth right? They didn't want him to breathe. It's again, it's almost like you're watching like a you're looking at a still from a Parody movie because there's so much tape on them. That's that's not achieving any purpose and there's no reason to do it in the first place and going back to the empty frames episode with Marge geillis. She was a roommate with the other guard Randy and she said there was quite a lot of Trauma from being there. I got you know what she said, you know, he from the tape and everything that he was not in good shape at the end of the day and yet he looks like he's in pretty good shape and managed to go to the Grateful Dead concert that night and doesn't Seem to be have really experienced a trauma consistent with seven hours and sitting there. All right. So let's move down. Okay his body a little bit. Do you want to talk about his legs first you want to talk about what's going on behind his hands and his hands first. I think we covered the the ankles which I think I'm not done with the ankles. Okay on that. Okay. Why don't we why don't we talk about well, I see I think in this photo here from the one taken from his right his leg is clearly over his other one, right? Yeah. It doesn't go down all the way. But looks like one is kind of folded over like the other one at ankles, right? Is that yeah. Yeah, but on this one, but on this one, it doesn't seem what another photos it doesn't seem like that everyone taken from his left side. It doesn't seem like that at all. Right. So if that is the case, then that means that he had plenty of room to wiggle around and make himself a little more comfortable there. Right? Right. So this first photo that you're talking about just to be super clear it cuts off right at his knee and it looks like it looks like his right leg is crossed. / / / / has left the ankle right and then there's another picture where you can see his feet and they're Bound by duct tape and it doesn't angle though is definitely not. Yeah, it's he's not there and that one but even the position further up his leg where the other photo would have cut it off is it's off. It's right. It's clearly not cross that seems kind of inconsistent. Right and then another aspect of the tape around the ankles is assuming that after seven hours that you You could stretch the tape out then you'd be able to walk. Yeah, could you could hobble to the stairs and make your way upstairs unless you were handcuffed to something, which is another phase of this. So maybe someone whoever found him first started removing the tape and they started with his legs and then they took the picture or they took the picture and then remove the tape and took another picture. Nope. I think there's plenty of room there. I think see I think in the shot that you See his feet. It does look like the tape is tightly bound. But I think that's tightly bound to his pants. Like I don't think there's no room there in the middle. I think you could you could slip a board and I think there's probably enough room there for him to slip one leg over the other for sure. Well, he hit looks about like he has about as much trauma as Taylor Swift in the mean video here what she's tied to the railroad track will try it yourself, but you put your ankles together right now and then see how much more room you need to actually up one over the other and you don't need much just a little bit and that also means then that you don't need much too kind of duck walk as Rick likes to say he was Adept at to up the stairs or over to the stairs and easily could have could be explained by fear. Potentially. He didn't want to go up there if these guys are still there. Maybe they are aggressive if he shows his face at that point, but after like six hours, let's say after why would they be there? Yeah, and why wouldn't he just make make a slight attempt there? Or it considerate maybe he did. Well one explanation is that he claims? He was handcuffed to an electrical box. Okay, great. So let's let's talk about about that because it doesn't seem like there's any evidence of that based on the photos. No, I don't. I don't see any electrical box and then that in the police report in one spot, it says that he was handcuffed to the pole. But I think that was referring to the other guard who was on a pole that was under the sink and then Anthony Nia Maury has said on more than one occasion that he was handcuffed to a pipe. Okay. So we have a poll a pipe and electrical box. But it really in the crime scene photo and both Anthony Amore and Stephen Curry and said that he was forced to stay where he is because they needed to get get the photo. Yeah and in the right place, okay. He is sitting in front of several electrical boxes. Yep. There's a that's clogged drain pump. There's something that's marked fan motor and Looks like a I don't know like I don't know some sort of functioning switch or buttons. There's like a conduit pipe that it looks like pump looks like he's looks like it's coming down from from inside the panel and if you zoom in on his wrist that could be duct tape or that could be a handcuffs. It looks like handcuffs. I was going to say look more like duct tape to me. It is a reflective though kind of seems to maybe reflect a little bit. What from The Flash but doesn't the duct tape. Yeah. Well if he he if it is duct-taped and I would say someone helped him get in that situation because I don't think you could put handcuffs on and then put duct tape over it. So I think it's either just handcuffs or maybe he was tied up by somebody else because I really don't see supposedly. They did put duct tape around the handcuffs. I don't see it there and I don't see how you could put handcuffs on and then additionally put duct tape on it. We just have like a massive amount of duct tape and they were just curious how to use more Tape we don't know what the other don't know what the other guard looks like either. Yeah. It doesn't make much logistical sense. They ran out of duct tape. I drank enough. Yeah. Yeah, they're like, oh, what are we going to do with the other guy? I don't know. What would love to hear the official word on that what that actually is handcuffs are duct tape or both or both. Okay. So if he's handcuffed he's got both of the bracelets from the cuffs on both wrists and then the chain Parts going around the The the pull in theory, that would be the part that the pipe. Yeah. Okay, that would well, I think they said there was a second set of handcuffs two sets of handcuffs. Yeah, they definitely hand and then we definitely mention two sets of handcuffs with the other guard. It's not mentioned here but doesn't look like that here looks like his arms are definitely touching like his wrists are touching here. Yeah one hands folded under. Yeah, very similar to his ankles and that picture looks like the pole is about maybe an inch and a half or two inches in diameter. Now what? What else is going on right there on that Landing that he's kind of sitting leaning against is under these boxes these electrical boxes which like we said our behind him, but we can't see any evidence of him actually being chained to it. But what is going on in this Landing is like three matchbooks, right? Well there does look to be something like a pole but then it's looks like a piece of wood that maybe balsa wood that would easily snap or or that his handcuffs aren't really on the other side of it sure, but there is some other things here. There's a what I can I don't see how that could be anything. A other than a Swiss army knife behind him that definitely looks like a looks like it has a little Insignia. Maybe it's some sort of generic knockoff of the Swiss army knife little jackknifed, but it's a it's a pocket knife. It's a pocket knife a variable name. Yeah, and if it's not then I think it's reasonable to ask what well then what is it? And why is it there? Yeah, maybe the maybe the thieves left it there for him to try to get you know and release himself was as a James Bond movie. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, like if he wasn't involved there's no explanation for that. Is there one for having a leaving him there with a pocketknife? Otherwise, I would just say I mean there's a bunch of other trash kind of on that Landing or other stuff that you could call junk like these matchbooks is seems to be some kind of rapper and there's like a looks like a window that looks like a ticket. Yeah, it looks like ticket blueprints or something like that. It looks like there's a mess right there on that Landing where he's sitting mean. Everyone's seen a messy basement, right? And there's a lot of things that are weird there if you look at it really in detail, but And I think ZM I don't see why I had a knife would be sitting there right or matches would I think just out of an abundance of caution? They would remove any matches or anything that might you know, I mean, he could start a fire to call attention. There's some you would think hey drop the knife or yeah the knife in the matches. Maybe they left the knife here. I'm theorizing maybe they left the knife. So for whoever was coming in the next day would find them and then they would have a knife to cut the duct tape off these guys because by all accounts they seem to be treated pretty nicely. By the thieves alternative thought the paintings some of them were cut out of the frames. There's a knife can conspicuously behind one of the guards has that knife been run against the knife from the frames. I mean what we're looking for a it's not a murder. So but but it's a weapon like right like a murder weapon in quotes and then there's weapon right here behind one of the guards that could probably have done that job. You're not going to find blood on it. Maybe you'd find some stitching but you should be able to forensically see if that was the same knife fingerprint it well, so was it collected as crime scene evidence at the time of the robbery and I've never seen any reference to I mean, I noticed the knife was there. It hasn't the pic. Like I said, the picture is only been around in the public view for maybe five years. I think it's it's not in the public domain. There's nothing about a pocket knife or matches being found in any of the descriptions like In any of the books are new stories that I've seen we never hear though about the thieves like their actual weapon, right we hear. Oh, maybe it could have been a razor blade box cutter put him in a box cutter, but we never heard of a search for a box cutter or we never heard. Oh, this guy was apprehended, you know, and he suspiciously had a box cutter in his pocket, you know or anything like that like has never been any talk of this weapon used other than it was probably a box cutter. What if it was a knife. Yeah. I don't know if you could make that kind of a cut because they're it very neatly under the frame. So I don't know but it could be that that was the I mean you would think that they would be at least looking into that to see if there was any remnants on there seems a weird place to put your like you said murder weapon when you're done with it. Well another theory is if he did tape himself at the last minute because it appears that he hasn't been take very long to me or confined there and handcuffed that he hurriedly had that he had those items in his fanny pack and he The knife to cut the duct tape and he cut some strips and just started emptying his fanny pack and he had matches and this looks like maybe candy wrappers to me. It does kind of look like a ticket. I'm kind of with you there does kind of look like a ticket ideas Grateful Dead took a good So we did want to talk about the night before the Gardner Heist surveillance video. That was released by the FBI. Was it? Mm? Mm 15 August 16 August 6 2015. Okay. This is why we need you. So, okay. So let's hear your thoughts on this video because I know we've talked about it and we've we heard Marge Galas on season one of empty frames. That she was sure that it was the director of security of the gardener Larry O'Brien, right and I really want to I think I'm a fan of empty frames and I think the Marge geillis episode was one of the best when great but I do I do disagree with her that it's the security suit the assistant Security Supervisor. Larry O'Brien. Can you go back for people who aren't aware it is it is pretty widely known what the night before. Video is but can you synopsize that for anybody? Who's like, oh, what's that we can go through it. Yeah. All right. Well, it was part of a larger social meteor or crowdsourcing campaign. That was really driven by Carmen Ortiz who was then the US Federal prosecutor us district attorney for Massachusetts and that goes back to I mean you go back to June of 2012 where it was announced that they were going to do the social media campaign. And in the Boston Globe article about it, there was no no response by the FBI and and in the article, it says the Gardner Museum refused to comment about this social media campaign. However, Anthony Amore said in Plymouth a few weeks ago that he's optimistic. The paintings will be found. So I thought that was I thought wait the federal government just announced they're going to spend millions of dollars on a social media campaign and they're not including and and the Gardner Museum doesn't want to comment about it. So that made me think maybe there was some mixed feelings about whether this was the right way to go. Then you had the big meeting the 2013 anniversary meeting where they said we know who the guys are. We think the paintings went through Philadelphia and that was another component of the social media campaign and then it sort of then the next thing the Marathon bombing kind of took center stage and that was pretty much forgotten anger is flat-out the easiest way to make a podcast anchor gives you everything you need in one place for free, which is Use right from your computer or even your phone creation tools allow you to record and edit your podcast. So it sounds great. They'll distribute your podcast for you. So it can be heard everywhere Spotify Apple podcasts Google podcasts and many more you can easily make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. So download the anchor app or go to Anchor dot f m-- to get started now. There was another part of the crowd sourcing was the and it was kind of a more of a defensive component of it was they thought they were going to be getting a lot of questions around the 25th anniversary and in anticipation of it. They put out a lot of information at that point at the anniversary and also that coincided with Kirk geon's Master thieves book coming out then a few months after that August. That's when they put out this six-and-a-half minute excerpt of the surveillance video from the night. Before which showed someone coming into the museum after about 24 hours before the actual Heist. Yeah, like it almost exactly 24 hours. Right? And Anthony Amore has claimed credit for saying I said, you know, I I said to a reporter maybe it was a dry run and but he I saw him at a like a book signing and he said he regretted that and he didn't really think that was a fair characterization. He was just sort of speaking off the top. Of his head perhaps because on last seen the podcast last seen about the Gardner Heist done by WBUR and the Boston Globe Anthony. Maury said that he did believe that they identified this person and that he wasn't involved in the heist. Right? Well, there's been sort of an interesting mysterious kind of aspect to this. Okay. So first of all, there has never no one from the FBI or even Anthony Amore has specifically spoken on the Heard about anything that's in the video like the car comes down. It looks kind of funny or any kind of talk there has been information about what what the contents of the video are. However, it's been kind of inaccurate in the Boston Globe. They said that that the guy came in the command can be seen leaving his car after the other guard left. Well, that's not true. The other guard can be seen. Viewing the car coming down the road and the car had already parked before the other guard Joe Mulvey left and we know his name is Joe Moe V. Thanks to episode 4 or whatever the one the Marge geillis episode. That's the only time the fact that he's that he's been identified as Joe multi-episode for of empty frame below cabin of the first season. So that's one of the details that came out. His name is never been mentioned. He's been made into an iconic Cody. Izawa. There are This artist has done pictures of the Guard standing there mute Li not doing anything and also the Boston Globe used it for their promo for last scene of the guards standing there. Well, he does a lot so does have him standing there. That's what he happens to be doing in the very first frame where you see him, but that's not a call. Yeah. All right. So there's a lot going on in there including with Joe movi. Yes, you have to really kind of look at the video to see it all because like you said if you look at the first frame or the or the the thumbnail in a lot of a lot of cases is of this guy this fellow Joe that one of the security Como be right and he's kind of an older fella, right and he's standing there. And so that is not the guy who comes in who know pulls his car and he's and it's not the guard that will lets him in right? The other one is Rick a bath who's also on the video. Okay. So if you go to Google or Bing, you can type in Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum night before video and you it'll bring you right to the YouTube link. So anyone listening now can go Are you can click on that link and you can see this video? It starts with Joe Mulvey at the security desk talking over to talking over to Rick a bath the other guard at first. Okay, Rick is kind of out of frame sort of almost underneath the camera, but you can see his hat on the counter right sort of cowboy hat. Yeah. Yeah as he wore the next night too. But but now he's not wearing it. I think color looks I speculate that that is a stage direction that when the visitor comes in he knows where he is and where he is not on because they outer brim of the hat is the exact spot where you're not on camera. So that's another there's all kinds of aspects to the video that you could speculate about about how much intent and what's going on and how choreographed one might hear you say that and say you're being a bit conspiratorial and you're looking into this a little too deeply. Well, I probably looked a little too deeply there's like a hundred and forty thousand seven thousand visits on YouTube. I think half of them might be okay so you don't But I'm being conspiratorial and saying if Rick a bath was involved. Maybe there was organized efforts going on not being conspiratorial. I mean, obviously if he was involved there is a conspiracy if he wasn't then there wasn't really Playing devil's advocate here because I mean, he's the only other one in the video like well, I guess my point is what is he hiding from the camera do where he naturally stands? They don't really want to record him. Right? Right, but I guess your argument might be he's trying to and where the line is so he can avoid the next night when the visitor comes in. He stands mostly kind of in kind of out. Yeah on that on that right by the Hat. Yeah, so but it is exciting. He's right by the half he if that visitor wants to be out of frame on the security. All he has to do is stay to the right of his right of that right, which he doesn't really do very successfully. But okay now when you're watching the video it cuts between the inside of the museum right the security desk. With the position of the camera aimed towards the door that goes into that little breeze way before you go to the main door outside and write HD quality want to say, oh, it's high def like Blu-ray quality. No grain Blu-ray, but it cuts between that and is it simultaneous footage of the car? No on Palace road coming down? No. Oh no, it's in sequence. So for a while, we'll be outside and then we'll show and then and the timestamp changes back and forth. So it's content. Lois oh but at one point of showing you outside and the other point is showing you inside. I think that's important to note because a lot of time is taken when you first see this video to understand what you're watching and where you're watching it and when you're watching and and I was being sarcastic earlier the the videos in black and white and it's the resolution isn't great and it is actually even like jumping like an old VHS tape would and and even the picture kind of bends at points to so really is not a great video. Well, it hasn't been very well. And that is true too. So it was lost for years. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about the maintenance of this. Yeah. Okay. It was not lost according to Vincent Lizzie who was head of the Boston FBI office. He did an interview a couple of days after it was released with Kevin: and he said we've known all along about it. We didn't think it was of particular use and we've been aware of it. And what's come out is that around 2013 empty frame says 2010, but that's not right. I was around 2013 you met last scene said last seen sorry. Okay. Yeah, sorry pulled that Robert Fisher who was at the US attorney's office pulled some of the old evidence and he found it. I think there's signs that it may have there might have been some kind of controversy about whether or not to release it, but it was not once it was put out there was really nothing done to support the video in terms of giving information like how taught we've determined how tall the person is or Other kind of information or making sure people like Marge geillis and other security guards and employees made sure they saw it or you know different things they could have done in support of the of the release of the video. I was not done at all. Okay. So what is the first thing is you're watching this? Okay, that stands out to you as being somewhat. Well, there's so much sorry reflex. It's sort of there's a lot. Why don't we start from the very beginning? Okay, so it starts out you don't see anything. There's really not a couple of good points. You see you see Joe Mulvey he starts to go out and then he at the last minute he changes his mind and he goes back and he's lingering at that seems to be his spot his home base and he starts having a conversation with with the other guard Rick a bath and sounds like he's trying to make a point. He's you know gesturing with his hand and he's he's trying to say something kind of serious probably about the Patriots. Yeah could be could be about anything. So he's making a point. And then the next thing looks like there's something in his left hand now is he has a huge hand obviously, but it looks like maybe he has something then all of a sudden he starts striding down and this coincides with the appearance of the car, right? Okay. So we'll pause there and then Abbott's on the phone. Yeah. Now we have it's on the phone. Okay, and and he is looking they're looking at the monitor. Okay, so note of record here. We just paused at 50 51 seconds. Okay, and it's actually paused at a really resting spot because it looks like it's right in between a jump. Well, yeah, when you said that it coincides with a car pulling down the road, it's actually a car backing up the wrong way down palace Road right to the like the security at yeah going the wrong way and a one-way Street in Reverse with the headlights off and something else to note Rick abbath who looks a lot like that guy from Workaholics. Yeah, I guess like Blakemore call workaholic. So Rick Abbott is is on a phone right now and Does look like they're both looking at a monitor, right? He might be scared looking in the same direction. I was thinking maybe he was calling a pager possibly because he this is before cell phones. So you have to kind of put yourself in the technology of the time and pager technology. So he might be signaling to someone through a page. Okay, so good point. So what it wasn't was Larry O'Brien outside in his car on the phone being like hey, I'm outside. Can you let me in? I'm about to come up to the door. Well, he would have a master key anyway, because Cuz he was a assistant supervisor. So he would need to he would need a key or even to announce himself. He might not want to announce himself. I guess I was getting into the cell phone thing that yeah Roar. Okay, because there were no cell phones right I got but maybe there was sorrow phone maybe but probably not that was kind of a whole 80 toy anything back then right and it goes with a limo but your point about whether as a cell phone or a car phone is pretty much a moot point after hearing that he had a master key and he probably Even want them to know because why would he announced as the his their boss? Why would you announce that? He's coming. I don't know but I don't think it from from what I've heard about the security guard guidelines. It was like they weren't supposed to let anyone in even even Larry O'Brien if he showed up so they were breaking guidelines all over the place. I think they were allowed. I think supervisor would would have a reason to go in they were not they were clearly it was people generally agree that a lot of people are coming in that should not have been allowed. Yeah, but in He used to come in from time to time. Yeah, but they it seemed like they definitely played fast and loose with right who came in. Yeah to the point where Rick abbath even brought friends in who were tripping on mushrooms to view the artwork at one point again / last scene. That's that's the only place I had heard that but I thought that was pretty pretty interesting. He brought his friends in after they had drank some kind of magic mushroom shake and they had a party and it made me Jealous. Well one thing is that he came in with maybe one friend if he has a book. He started writing a book about his experiences and they clearly are referencing that book which is on Facebook the pages from that book and they kind of stray from the facts and and exaggerated a little bit on the exact extent of that. But yeah, it's true, but he didn't bring in a bunch of friends. Yeah, but there were maybe four or five people in there at the time and some of them were tripping and this is from something that trick abbath Rosell Pro. Yeah. Okay. So so we have Liberties that are being taken with Rick habits own words, and I think other guards to it sounded like pizzas were regularly delivered inside the museum. They would put them in. Yeah to deliver pizza right to the door. Well, which was completely breaking protocol, but someone like a 51 year old assistant supervisor who used to be a lieutenant colonel in the Army. He's coming down the road. It doesn't make sense that he would come down the road in reverse. Park 3 feet from the curb not even a head of the door, right? Okay. So so the point back to the points are a long way to get out get away from that. This is how we this is how we get these details that we do it rick Abbott was not talking to Larry O'Brien or the person who can call on the phone. Yeah, right on the phone at 51 seconds, right? Okay. You just said that this is a former military retired lieutenant colonel retired lieutenant colonel 54 years old. And this is this is this is Larry O'Brien that you're speaking of. Yes, and you're not in agreement that he was the one driving the car in Reverse down the road. No, I don't think it looks like him and its behavior is not consistent. He would know that he was being that he was on he's being he's on surveillance tape in that the surveillance tape was being recorded. So, why would he that you all you have to do is go around the block and there's no traffic at that hour. So he saved himself maybe a minute striving by doing that. There's no logical reason why a supervisor would want. Down one a one way street that way I'd make the argument that anyone really familiar with an area would take that Liberty. Like I've done that before in my in front of my own house, you know what I mean? I do I regularly when I switch the cars in the driveway actually, so I think it's a me. It seems like familiarity. Where would he be coming from his home? Yeah in Somerville on Alpine Street in Somerville. So he'd be coming down 93 the old. Mr. Tobin Bridge and down Storrow Drive, so I'm not even sure what makes sense that he'd be coming in that way. Wouldn't even make sense for him to come in that way. I would think no, I don't think so, but I'm not sure he might have a way but then why would he have his headlights off? That's what it said was another find that is a great question. Right? And then why would he Park three feet from the curb and why wouldn't he park at the door why we park forward of the door? I don't know and how quick was he in there? He was in there for really just like the length of this video. He was in there for three the person the visitor was in there for three minutes and 15 seconds and 4. Two minutes and 30 seconds of that time their off-camera and maybe in another gal in a gallery or doing something. There's no evidence that they are even anywhere near where that they're even in the security station for the to 2 minutes and 30 seconds between second 51 and you know minute for so I'm starting to see why you said that that hat could be a marker because it is it is exactly placed at the frame. Right at the edge of the frame right interesting and he usually wore his hat. So why is it there? So then you have Joe Moe v. He's studying the video. OK see how it goes out and goes back on and then right when that happens, he moves he starts heading out. He's no longer watching it. He being Joe moldy, right? Okay, so there's a blocking of the of the Of that reflection of that light in the car. And as soon as it does he moves so given that this is not the time of cell phones. This could be a signal of okay. That's the all clear for him to go outside and that might explain why it's three feet from the curb and not in front of the door and then when it flips back, he's walking to the door. Well if it is O'Brien, why is he driving the car in Reverse down the road? Why is he parking so far away from the door? It's a straight road, right why he's got the option to drive. I've all the way down to the door and then tuck his card closer to the curb which he doesn't do the Rarity and he knows he's only going to be in there for a couple minutes. Well, I would say if he was familiar with the road. He would know not to park in the middle of the road like any time from the door. Yeah, it seems Hasty to me. One thing is that the Boston Globe reported that Mulvey is going on his rounds. Okay. So the theory is okay. He's going on his rounds and then the visitor comes in he is not going on his rounds. There's no To get into the galleries from that door that you see him going out that door only leads to Palace Road and I sent it tweet it Marge geillis. And I said is this I'm saying I don't think this goes anyplace else but Palace Road and she says well your rounds could include Outdoors. So well that he was acknowledging that. Yeah, he could have been going he might have been going on his rounds Outdoors, but when we just got going on his rounds in a gal we just on the breakdown was that they're talking a car shows up. They see. It in the monitor. Yeah, Rick abbath picks up a phone and and the other guard Joe Mulvey heads out to Palace road. I was road. So it looks the appearance is that they look down and say oh there's that car. Yeah, or there's a car. Yeah and Joe goes outside and Rick added stays inside now is this what this be common practice for a security officer to go outside to check on a car that would just be parked there. But well that was never addressed that it was. You know, I've never even never occurred to me that he was going out to check the car hee hee if you look at his body language as the car is coming. They look sort of amused and intrigued by the car, but they don't look like this. It's any particular threat. I would say if it were threat then they probably wouldn't have gone out so soon. We just saw the seconds tick by and it's literally like maybe two seconds before they make a decision to go outside. So I'm not saying yeah, this is a fact but it does look like they know that car. Okay. Well in any case he's now has headed. Outside now, right? I think them fact that he lingers there might be we never see him go outside. We don't see the door open as we do with the visitor later that he might have timed it so that he would go outside when the visitor opens the door so that he knows when he knows what so when he goes out he's not there standing there by the door, right the car there, right? He uses the opportunity to go that doing during that he's a sort of does which is seems very precise and choreograph possibly. That's just speculation though. In any case he's Heading outside but he is not shown outside. Okay. So what else can we see in the video? So let's keep going. Let's get to the visitor coming in again. Am I incorrect that he goes back out? Okay. No, he does go back out your right knee comes back in. Okay. So the first thing we see is we don't see him go in the first time. So you're going to go with a mate to good points of reference for this watching. This video are minute at 2 0 0 2 minute Mark in the 5-minute Mark two minute Mark. You see the visitor coming out of the building. Wait a Second he just got in he just got in and he's going out and he was never picked up him going in the building. Yeah, we never see the door opening for him to go in. We only see him it opening going out and then what happens is and you can see is that the door is left open as he returns to the car. So he travels out to the car for 20 seconds turns on the Lights of the car and returns to the museum and he leaves the door open while he makes that QuikTrip decked back and when he comes back a bath only buzzes him once so a bath know. That that this door has been left open. So a now his car lights are on now his car lights are on. Yes. Okay, there's some interesting aspects of when he makes his initial trip to the when you see him. You see the visitor come out and go from the car to the museum traveling this Gloom outside of the door when it's closed. You can't see anything. But when he makes the trip from his car to the to the museum we can see we can say fairly convincingly that he's not delivering food. He's going too fast. He's spinning around. Around he's parked three feet from the curb. Why would it bows delivery guys are very efficient. Every time management conscious. They Park as close to the door as they can and he's not carrying a bundle. Yeah. We don't see any food, right so we can say okay, we can eliminate that we can eliminate let's say it's a drug deal someone who's carrying a lot of drugs isn't going to be that conspicuous and go down the street in the middle of the night and Park 3 feet from the curb either does seem like a weird time to get your drugs, right? So you're at work. Middle of the night. So you're eliminating all of these possibilities. Actually. It seems like might be a good time to get would be the best time. Yeah, actually, yeah, but it kind of eliminates the priests are going to be a drug dealer very long if he's being that careless and again, he would park closer to the door want to be as inconspicuous as possible. Plus there's the leaving the door open is, you know, very suspicious and not consistent with really it being anybody the thing to me that that makes me question the Larry O'Brien Brian account is that the the visitor just doesn't look like he's that old. He looks like he's like Larry when he's our yeah 30 looks like he's like 30, right and and Larry O'Brien had gray hair by that times 51 that was mine in the auction because the the visitor doesn't have gray hair. You can it's black the videos black and white so you're limited a little bit but it looks like it has color. It looks like it is brown or black. Am I wrong on that guy's no. No, I agree and also his brother said that this Sin has wavy hair. There's cow looks in his hair and his brother said that's not my brother. He has very flat hair actually his brother was one of the only people to say that's not my brother. That's not Larry O'Brien. Well, there were there were a few there were a couple was a couple of the Guard said no, so there was some it's a matter of how hard do you want to look for people who say it's not him. Okay. So this is some on both sides if this is not Larry O'Brien, this is in my opinion somebody that they at least know because they Saw or expected because they weren't looking at what is perceived to be the Monitor and they weren't looking at it for long enough to say to each other. Who is this? This car is driving down here in Reverse. Oh, that's something like it. Just looks like they knew who that was, right? Because it could have been anybody right? I mean it could have been anybody who is driving down, you know trying to get directions for themselves may be looking at a map or something and then realizing that You know where they had to go and then they leave you think that the security guards would have liked thought about that and waited to see what that car would have done. The only time you really see any kind of startle reflex in Mulvey through all of this is when he's first told that it appears or you see the lights of the cars coming back and I imagine that a bat said here comes a car and then all of a sudden he sort of in this position of kind of rushing down. He looks like he's rushing. He's very intent and focused on coming down and viewing it on the monitor in my view. What are they doing you as you can see, I'm kind of in the corner and that may be one of the better looks of the visitor. It looks like his hair is dark. It doesn't look like it's light but looks like almost like they're flipping through some kind of book or right maybe some kind of some kind. Okay change at all. Right and he walks out. He's got a code. He looks like he's got a little bit of a bald spot in the top of his head. I thought so too, but I think that that might be a light good today. Yeah could be reflecting light. Yeah, but you can see Abbott's Pretty much the whole time. He's bobbing his heads bobbing in and I just want to be sure that this isn't like a delivery driver who pulls up and then they're like, oh, hey leave your lights on if you're going to park there he runs back out and put some on and they comes back in and then he get does the transaction and then he leaves. Yeah. Well, so will they do with you look drunk. It's only it's only it's only 6 minutes and 40 seconds, right? Yeah, there's two minute two minutes and 30 seconds in the middle that's dead. There's a like a minute at the end that stuff. No use. So you go through it and you want to say let's look at it as and look for all the reasons why it's a food delivery guy. Let's look at it lets a friend and you can go through all the different scenarios. I don't see a food delivery guy. I don't know making change with his little plastic. I don't know look like he was opening a bag to me. Here's an argument against the food delivery. I feel like if maldi were to greet a food delivery person. Then he would have just done the exchange right there at the door and the food delivery person might even not I commit because his car is there and then it really doesn't make sense to say you should turn your lights on the food delivery person might say well, I'm only going to be here for like two seconds. I agree that the the time of the interaction is the major strike against food for sure. Yeah, because it's yeah most food deliveries are very very quick. They're like less than a minute right they want to get in and out. But if as but if he did come in he would have just put it right on the desk where there's plenty of room to put those who knows what would have happened. We're here. We're in the speculations. But yeah, I agree that for that reason. It's probably not but also it could be just one artistic guy delivering food to another and he's like, oh we're gonna Museum welcomes a good look around. Oh, I'll let me see your drawings and then he leaves sure. Yeah could be good day buddy. Let's remember that the greatest crime in property crime in the history of the universe hasn't happened yet. Agree on is that right that both abbath and Mulvey must have known or been aware of this person arriving. It definitely looks like it. Yeah, whether it's like a bath saying oh, that's the that's my Chinese food delivery guy or that's Larry O'Brien, but it's their decision to identify and then let this person in make the moves to let this person in happen in like four seconds Amore was a mere interviewed by Jim Rowdy on the on on Greater Boston on August 11th, like six days after was out and he said that they that nobody said anything about the people being let in so not only were they there but Rick a bath and Joe Mulvey never said, yeah, we've let in a visitor well probably because it was so common. It sounds like well, I mean I would think would be pretty important anything unusual happened on your shift or what's what do you know who's been in the mute the probably Know anyone who had been in the museum for the past week, so and they never mentioned that oh, yeah, by the way, someone came in my buddy, but it's really nothing. They would probably have the video alternate Theory the FBI and Amore and such know that it's not Larry O'Brien he's passed away. They're not going to get a strong rebuttal from him about that and they know that that person was involved in the heist the next night so they put it out there to see what shakes Loose as As I mentioned when they originally started Carmen Ortiz wanted to do the social media crowdsourcing it was on it was after Bulger, but that doesn't include being truthful to the public necessarily. You don't have to be there's no yeah. It's crowdsourcing versus crowdsource. That's right. I'll make you some krauts sauce and go sure so that's strategic in some cases. Sure. Yeah. I think that I'm not sure that the FBI was really very happy that this was coming out because of the fact that they haven't supported it. So I think it might have been an Of Carmen Ortiz and the District Attorney's office with you know, the the FBI grumbling coming along and not really enthusiastic about it. Of course, no one expected them to be exposed on the empty frames are way. These are two that's what we did we mulch we lull them all to sleep with five episodes having nothing to do the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum Heist and then we they're like, whoa, what's this first of all when this happened it was called in the Boston Globe that it's pertinent quote internet frenzy trying to figure out who this was. Was so there's massive stereotype. Let this put this video out and then on May 23rd of 2017 the Boston Globe did an article about how the first article about how the reward was being Double-Double to 10 million, right? And then oh by the way, you know 12 paragraphs down. Oh, yeah, we had last week. We called up the the FBI and ask them about what's the deal is with the video and they said they know who it is, and it's not anyone involved. So You had all this big roll out. I mean, there's still people who hadn't seen that article. I know Marge Galas hadn't seen it and there's still wondering like gee I wonder who that is and and still working at I think they had a responsibility to announce. We know who it is and maybe share a little bit a few of the details if everything was you know, oh, it's perfectly fine. It's you know, nobody that was involved in the heist simply a coincidence. What sounds like to me you're indicating that the that the globe is somehow How may be trying to control The Narrative of this? Well, I don't think they're trying to control the narrative so much as their their access driven and so they're not really challenging or pushing back on the talking points that they're getting and I don't think the talking points are a hundred percent on the level. Now. There's a reviewer for the globe who reviewed empty frame season one poorly. Let me add and then he said that he was gonna he's not being favorite. Favoritism or none of that involved. He said he was going to review last scene based on my recollection. He reviewed empty frames after episode 1 episode 1 was Tim and I along with mr. Kay who got us involved in this we did the broad Strokes of the heist and we did sort of the here's what we're going to do here is our intentions with the podcast and Tiber gave a scathing review of episode 1 and then went on to say what his intentions were with the the Boston Globe WBUR joint podcast here. The reviewer Tiber says for the record, I wrote this before finding out I wrote this scathing review of empty frames before finding out that the globe will be launching its own upcoming podcast on the Gardner heist in partnership with WBUR when it's available. I'll offer my honest opinion of that as well. Right? So why don't you pull up his honest opinion of last seen? Okay, let me oh, you know what? He actually never wrote One never did. Okay, interesting. That's why didn't someone some people would say that was a complete conflict of interest. He might and we wouldn't say that here at empty frames because that would be taking a low-hanging fruit. But I've heard that some people think that that's really a weird conflict of interest on his part will look at all the other reviews that he did for other podcast. Yeah, just in general. Well, he clearly listens to a lot of podcasts. I'd be shocked if he didn't listen to last seen Anthony Maury said on a different podcast. I don't remember the name of it. Recently. He said unfortunately there has no new leads or fresh material to work with that came out of people contacting him as a result of the last seen podcast. I don't really see a lot of information they came out I could tell you some things that I found very enlightening that came out of empty frames and I'm sure that and I've said this before that, you know historians are going to be much more interested in what what empty frames did then what last scene did because what last scene They claim they were doing a deep dive, but they didn't they just rehash the talking points. We are the home of the original Deep dive and that's what we got. Yes.
In season 2 of Empty Frames Tim Pilleri and Lance Reenstierna continue their dive into the subject of art heists by getting a broader scope of the world in which these crimes take place. In episode 6 of season 2 Tim & Lance again talk to the Muddy River Fact Checker. He helped us out on season one with keeping the Gardner heist facts straight. And now he's back to help us break down some Gardner heist minutia. Our topics include the crime scene photos of Rick Abath, and the surveillance video that was shot the night before the heist. Crime scene photo: https://www.wbur.org/lastseen/2018/09/24/inside-job Night Before Heist video: https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/boston/news/press-releases/historic-footage-connected-to-gardner-museum-burglary-released-public-assistance-sought. The Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum in Boston, Massachusetts was robbed of thirteen pieces of artwork on March 18th, 1990. The frames remain empty today, awaiting their return. Please sign and share the Turbo Plan petition for an itemized price list for the stolen Gardner art. 28 years into our response to this terrible crime, we must consider modifying the approach we take as we attempt to restore what’s been astutely identified as “our heritage.” Through Change.org, you can make your voice heard and help to bring the art home. Go to the link to sign your name: https://www.change.org/p/let-s-bring-home-the-stolen-isabella-stewart-gardner-museum-art-a-new-approach 