Hey guys, welcome to be on the a the purpose of the idea is to distinguish has anxiety and give you the tools and resources to succeed in your career. I'm so excited to have my good friend here Samson Chen who's here with us to speak. He is a current associate with McMillan doing technology privacy Healthcare. Also, you also part of a start-up I heard that's right and invited to that and actually more importantly you are now the current president of the Federation of educating Motors DC. Yes.So hit thanks for being here today. No, thank you for having me. So as you may know I'm part of this podcast is just to open up the conversation. All right, anxiety mental health whether someone you've you'd experience yourself or you've seen others who have because I think right now in the legal industry, it's so swept out of the rock is not really talked about at all. Right. So maybe let's start with that like, you know in your time experiences does anxiety existing legal profession. Yeah. Absolutely. I think it's already exists in like all of of them's like ever since you start involves was a law student. There is bodies like peer pressure. There's a lot of competition for me for a couple. I'm from the UBC faculty of Law and were graded by bell curve. So by nature is you're already pretty but I always competing with someone so you're not 10 not technically rank, but you are so Like I see a lot of situations where people get super-anxious their grades are not as good as the friends and you know, the whole oci's like the law firms are proven coming and that's another like fusions ID point because that could make or break your legal career when you start and there's a lot of misconception of what's the best way to see as a lawyer also Campbell. Explain that to you too can really teach you about that. And and so when you jump to the practice practice often quite different than the legal education and that is another I'll build out of fighting for promotion and fighting for practice areas so lot of expectations. So I think there is always poison inside throughout the career. So it's not like something latest finish that first here once you get into law school, everything is easy. No, it did not. No, it is anything you got it worse. Yeah, and that's what I appreciate about you is Hanson in having you here today? Because I know when you Mentor law students who junior lawyers you I think you're very friendly very open and honest, right? And yeah, and I really enjoy that like that about you and that's why we're here. Yeah, because I think it's a conversation needs to be had more and it is unfortunate. Love lawyers don't like to speak up about their own issues or about firm practice. Students often don't get the full picture and we were talking earlier before we were recording about how a lot of firms have this like window dressing I guess right but how the different initiatives are on and leading up to that. Why do you think firms and are not fond of talking about this? What do you think? It is looking hear me? Um, I think there are certain State mom, too. Showing weakness in the profession. I mean I say that from a solicitor side which probably less prominent than maybe they'll litigation side where you're perceived as someone who's strong with be not afraid of adversarial situations. So I think a lot of lawyers in their mind. They think they have to be Like I said her personality and being anxious being scared me nervous. It's not one of them. Okay, so link clicking back on what you said earlier about how like sometimes it's like sometimes past employment overturn in rhyme. I feel like quitting it's funny how that is right where it's like you pretend I was happening and then you just fall off the cliff. Yep, and that's kind of why we're doing this right like the must be a way of preventing that from happening or some kind of checked. between yeah, I think a lot of these people go to like a point of no return because they feel stuck and might digress a little bit but I think the expectations of lawyers often when you don't firm, you're supposed to follow a certain path. So go ahead handcuffed partnership track. So you don't really want to talk about you not being able to withstand the stress then, you know, it's either issue because you might fall off that track and if you follow the track that someone else going to take your position every year there's new students. There's actually no shortage. of lawyers competing especially at bigger firms, you know, there's only so many positions so that I think makes the whole situation worse because not only are you afraid of showing weakness just because there's that perceive personality that you're supposed to have but it's because even for like just job security If you're not on the track anger off, which means you might get fired so sounds like there's some structural aspects of this to it. Absolutely the way this is yellow absolute and I guess maybe reflect on your experiences. Was there a time when you experienced a severe anxiety or stress in the moment and what happened and like, how did you how did you come on it? Yeah, I mean stress wise I'm a fairly optimistic person by Nature by nature and fruit Prior to law school I was in the medical field. So I was one of those pre-meds trying to get into medical school and that's like way more competitive than get into law school. So by you know failing throughout the process and actually getting into under medical school in Asia, but then decided that's not right for me. That taught me a lot of being having Presbyterians and really understanding what I want to get out of my career my job. So having that mindset allows me to see things from a wider perspective and with more purpose so I don't get the same Stress and Anxiety that I love people get throughout the legal process, but for all through law school or the legal career. But what I have seen like in terms of anxiety for people, like I said, like oci's is the number of one like a fairy first step. I think all students can talk Shoreline. So for my personal experience, I had 17 18 oci's, which is actually quite a lot and at that time like I would think at least one what irony? Yeah, you know, I'm a pretty decent grades. I think I pretty good resume and then I thought I click pretty well with some of the firm's dinners either lunches that you would expect and then I have no offer. Mmm, so it was disappointing but it wasn't a stressful as it could have been because While I was hopeful, I wasn't being unrealistic. So I mean taking contact with all of the models yet friends. So I wasn't one of those students who are put all eggs in one basket and just go hard and we'll see eyes and just think that would be it, right? Yeah. I made sure I contacted a pharmacist because realistically I don't know the friends. All firms Market themselves as the best right? They send the best people. Oh, they're not going to send people with terrible personality of so make sure eye contact with small firms to because maybe I don't like a chrome. Maybe I prefer smaller firms like as a student you don't know and because of that I know even if different don't work out as a student. There's always someplace for me. It won't matter. What do I want to get out of this experience? So in second year third year after oci that you don't need to remain focused most were so try to do my best and courses. I start taking courses that I think would benefit back from Iron right now start taking courses that I've always interesting. So I thought like Japanese well write Chinese law. Not like Securities or so many other courses. I had something like business concentration stuff like that. So because of that I gave myself more options. So when it comes to getting our King interviews, I also didn't get an offer from the big Pharma Soul even McMillan never interviewed me as a student now. We'll never grow your own never didn't give you see eyes. I didn't even tell the call. My previous room Singleton they rejected me through. Yeah, so they get shows you there's no one path. Yeah to sucess whatever that means to you. So yeah in the end I kind of got what I wanted out of the Farms that I've worked in. And here I am like building the firm that never gave me any age of you any coffee chat. That's amazing. And I think I'm gonna zoom in on come we said earlier on the that mindset piece, right the fact that you had that utter conviction in the evening what your purpose was to write what the end goal and I think that the people that talk to you sounds like it is put us that mindset right but having that right mindset going in but and using that as a way to kind of guide where you're going and I think Absolutely funny and very refreshing to hear that. You know that this is one guy who seems like he is great associate. He is now president of faculty and you think you start as a 1l or you were there even before law school started. Yeah plasma not it was that path to get to where you are and but definitely lead to very much success down the road to as well. So yeah, not the smoothest path now, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm not complaining that quite often is not that some this path and I just love how you reflected on how there's many ways of getting to where you are as well right now, I guess leading on to more of a like a future-oriented question. Now, we kind of touched upon us briefly. But you know, one of the questions were at a panel not too long ago for faculty and one of the students asked what a myself I'm having anxiety and who do I talk to in my firm? Who do I talk to force a right? And I think you asking that question to right there quite often, you know, we're all going through things and who do I talk to you? So in your instance, like what would your suggestion of your advice be to several suggestions are actually so one. All lawyers and law students should make sure to circle of friends. It's not just lawyers police. Like do not be one of those people where your work life and your personal life filled with people from saying industry because I have been friends for about an industry. Not only is it better for business networking, but you see things from a different perspective and probably be more open to talk about like your issues with Leverage. With the client people you deal with while maintaining confidentiality, but I think is more refreshing and keep you sane do not have like the same folks and then second, you know, that's where organization like that works is you want to have an organization that won't judge you the same way. You think your friend rejection or your peers? That doesn't really share the same bond order same struggles. No being Asian. Doesn't help but they happen naturally Asians tend to be I find more anxious more nervous because I think we're we're really protectionist, but we do want to make sure we do things right and get things done. Right? So we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. Even if you don't your parents might yeah, it really does mine compare you and agent and cannot speak up a lot about the struggles. Issues, so everything just build up and one day you just can't stand it anymore. So we have an organization like faculty. You have people who probably share the same same issues. It's always easier to talk when you know people understand I think there is it doesn't matter which firm you're at. It's it's really important to find someone who would fault for you that it doesn't have to be a supervising partner. I'd be able to eat. Yes, but sometimes thought the best day and and sometimes you just have to leave the firm and change firm. So by that, I mean don't just change because of the personality because like was going as all firms have terrible people and good. Yeah, I might For the sake of I don't want to work with these people. You don't know what the people are like at the end of term or people can move around. Maybe the people you don't like when move to your new friend by things happen. Let people do move around. Yeah. So if it's like a really bad situation, you should also move because of like practice reason, you know, if the firm is in supportive of what you're trying to achieve in your practice, that's a really good reason to leave that might be a reason why you're anxious. Yeah that you feel like You're not doing something you enjoy you're not learning as much as you want. Yeah, and so at some point you have to make the cut and but to do that you have to be quite open to meet new people. And I think that does also help with the V8 anxiety stuff when you know, you have options, you know, you know people Beyond just your firm so get the key is to feel Not us. Fuck. Yeah in your situation, you know by joining stuff like that or if this meeting people outside of firm ass off the wall and just knowing you have options that helps a lot that's super powerful and the fact that you talk to me like those three points i-it's so Salient that'll go on Instagram somewhere. I'm sure so hopefully this helps some people but part of it is also that year Right, you know reaching outside of your firm, right? If sometimes yeah, yeah, there's practicalities, you know, we're not advocating if things do go bad like you feel afraid to talk to your principal your supervising partner, like by all means talk to someone else, right? Yeah have another point of contact exactly. I just go through it and there's just so much to be said about because I think we're all in this together and I'll start we're getting stuff like this is just kind of open up that conversation, right? No, I think it's great. You guys are doing stuff like this. Yeah. And there's one question. I want I know what I want to tailor it color it c as well and as you know beyond a it's for all Canadians all Asians all Americans not just Asian actually all Races because anxiety puts his all but today we're so fortunate to have sent some here today because you know, it'll be president of the Federation of Asian Canadian lawyers very well established organization. Not just only in BC, but all across Canada and its affiliated with our us partners to Papa so you kind of touched upon earlier. Earlier about the Asian stigma mind dying with David little bit more kind of what do you think it is that's holding agents back and that causes perhaps a different aspect of anxiety in Asian Canadians Asian Americans. You mean in the legal profession legally dress? I mean Asians are ready minority in a society, you know the legal profession you're really minor here talk about like especially like bigger firms your talk about less than 10% for sure. And then when it comes to like senior level even less so just by that alone, you kind of feel like you have to beat the odds. So you have a lot of pressure already if partnership track. It's like the only thing that works. And like Amendment for cultural reasons why the way we raise expectations being filled like your other thoughts or engineer or lawyer? So the state already has a lawyer but I do can fail like what if you tell your parents what the hell? You know what this doesn't work for me. I'm gonna go back to being an artist, but excuse me. You just wasted so much tuition and what am I? Say to like my friends or family. So that is so is that issue to like some people write and I think Asians income does not us flexible because raw is actually a pretty flexible education career like I mean greenhouse and I know some people become like a policy analyst so people started own business some people do both like me. Yeah, so you can do a lot Beyond as offering but I think if Asians naturally don't have that mindset of Do more than one thing at a time this legal education thing doesn't mean you have to be a lawyer you could do something else. Until they start thinking like that and more thinking for themselves basically because ultimately goes back to asking yourself. What do I want? Right and not being very submissive to like an employee employer mindset of what what does the law firm want for me? Right? You should actually ask what I want to get out of the farm right that and that that that's my the might just drop that we descend the podcast on that line, right because what that that's a laudable right? It's like what do I want like that? Yeah, some for such a simple question, but we don't ask that and we feel like we lose that personal agency right that ready to change the ability to be flexible. Right as you're saying right you once we feel that everything is on our shoulders. It's so easy just to fall off that cliff and right foot long, which is not what we Advocate at all in this in this in this young age has to know guys the mindset and strategies right because it could work. Yeah Lobby it does. Yeah. But you have to make it work as well. So I know we're coming close to the end of the podcast. I had one last question that we normally ask all I guess so Samson, if you were to take yourself back in time to the young Samson the the first day of law school even the day before the night before the first day of school. Yeah, and if you were to open up a letter or you listen to a suddenly you see this podcast of yourself in the future talking to your old self. What is something Tell yourself at that moment of time I what's one piece of advice that you'd say. I would tell my younger self. Yeah. They go. It's hallway ourselves to not take things too personally about the process because I think that's one of the huge factor of why. People may feel anxious for the whole thing because you did take it personally first rejection, you're not doing as well as other civilians and it's so easy to fall under them. But once you don't take things personally like law firms is a business. They may not pick you for many reasons. Maybe what your good eye on the resume isn't what they need at this moment. Then I think everything else would fly to places because now you start thinking about stuff yourself and not always beating yourself up. So I wasn't doing a lot of that but I could have done to less because I didn't enjoy law school that much but to be honest, I didn't feel like a teacher's me a lot better practice. And I think that's just the nature of law school. So yeah, I don't know. That's what Our Telecom yourself amazing. Well, thank you. Thank you. That was that was amazing. And hey guys, you want to learn more about Samson Chan follow us at at beyond the eighth at Sea on Instagram also faculty. See we have our website. You can join our events. We have a big Gala coming up in November and Shameless plug. We're actually doing a oci interview Workshop in September. So if you want to learn how to manage anxiety and also get the interview skills, come join us for workshop, and that's not well. I'll see you next time. Yeah, thank you. Okay.
Anxiety is a double-edged sword. It affects one’s performance, and may even become detrimental to finding a fulfilling career in law. The lack of dialogue on the topic at a firm can further exacerbate the experience felt by each individual and ultimately lead to departure. In the uphill battle of our high performing profession, Samson Chan offers his perspective as a leader of the Asian Canadian legal community in British Columbia, and as a star associate at McMillan LLP. In a profession where stress and anxiety seem inevitable, Samson weighs in on how to manage stress and failure while staying successful. Optimistic by nature, Samson maintained his cool even after not landing directly at a firm through OCIs. His past experience as a pre-med student who chose an alternative career in law helped prepare him for handling pushback. He is a representation of the saying “there’s no one path to success.” Samson’s wisdom is poignant and relatable. His past experiences with failing honed his perseverance and helped him keep the focus on what he wants out of his career. As an Asian-Canadian lawyer, Samson acknowledges that culturally there is a perfectionist tendency that is self-imposed and/or stemming from expecting relatives and parents. The added pressure as a visible minority in the law firm reflects on the need to shift entrenched perspectives and “norms”. Samson advocates for breaking out of the stereotypical and recognizing that one can pursue multiple passions - like working in business and law concurrently. He practices what he says by working as a strategic advisor for a startup while balancing his busy associate practice. For students and young associates dealing with anxiety, Samson offered three practical tips on how to stay balanced: (1) Have friends in different industries besides law (2) Be involved in groups or organizations that bring diverse perspectives (3) Find someone who will vouch for you. One last take away from Samson? If he was back to the day before he started law school, he would tell his younger self not to take things too personally. When it comes to hiring, firms are ultimately a business, and there’s a variety of reasons they might not choose you at that moment, you can create value with what you bring regardless of where you are. -- For details on our upcoming Beyond the A workshop on interviews on Sat, September 14, visit: https://beyondthea.co/events/2019/9/14/interview-oci-workshop-vancouver 