Hello, welcome to the theology plug cast is the CR Wiley and like we always say we're recording in the corner plug in West Hartford, Connecticut. And today we're back together again after being apart for a few weeks and when you know, we have our recording equipment. We actually have the recording. We're just not sure we know how to use it really yet. So what we're doing is we haveA backup system plus the recording equipment and so we know that there's going to be a show that gets recorded. We just don't know on which machine it's going to record it. So it sounds like it's always sounded then, you know that we failed but it sounds like a like that's that's different. It's a little better. I can actually make those guys out now then we know that we've succeeded it's so anyway, each of us have a lapel mic on and we also have a mic in the Center of the table. So we have no excuses. There's we need to have a fine paint. That's right. It's right here. It's right when I have sliders and Tom has his is IPA is a night straight at the a guy. I'd like to mix it up myself Glenn us all sliders. So if so, you know, anyway, well, let's go around the table and reduce ourselves. Tom Tom Price systematic Theologian and Christian ethicist teaching both at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and Gwen son. I'm professor of history at Central Connecticut State University senior fellow at the Coulson Center for Christian worldview and occasional Porter Drinker. That's right. He gets out of the rut once in a while anyway, and I'm CR Wiley and I'm the pastor of the Presbyterian Church of the Manchester and I'm the author of the household in the war for the cosmos which just came out of a few weeks ago. I was doing pretty well anyway, so today is my day and what I want to talk about is a subject that's really quite awkward to talk about and the subject is LGBT networks in Evangelical institutions. So now why would I even raise this subject and present it as a conversation, you know subject for conversation on the podcast. Well there, you know. Is you live in I don't know an igloo Alaska, you know that we are just at we just finished pride month so to speak and we all know what that means today pride is one of those words that used to mean something positive, you know, at least in certain context. Well actually before that it meant something negative, but that's another matter but depended on the yeah dependent on the context context anyway, so and then I've just Return from the PCA Presbyterian Church in America as general assembly. So there was a lot to think about related to these themes based on that general assembly. And if you are curious to sort of explore what went on at the general assembly you could you don't have to go very far just Google PC AGA homosexuality and you'll have like 5 million hits. So anyway, so there's a lot going on. There but what got me you know, as I reflected upon my own sort of sort of background with the so-called Community the LGBT community Ike my mind went back to my very first experience. It was with this group of people or people who identify or sort of are engaged in behaviors that we and now it's sort of associate with that Community or we do associate with Acadiana and it's in college that I My mind Journeys back to the experiences I had in college and there was a went to Eastern Nazarene College as an undergraduate. And while I was there there were a number of rumors concerning a kind of homosexual lesbian Network that was there on the campus and that the students were part of and I knew some of the people who were, you know reported to be to be a part of it as well as at least one faculty member. And I was sort of a, you know generous in my sort of estimate or so my spirit. I didn't want to run rush to any conclusions. I didn't want to you know, think the worst of people and I defended people who were told I was told were a part of this group. I you know the faculty member in question. I know I said this guy's good guy. I know my don't think that it's fair for us to talk about this and it maybe maybe at that was just Fine, maybe maybe that was the thing I should have done. But in point of fact in actual fact, there was one and the reason I know there was one is because I actually met the ringleader about 7 years later and he told me all about it. And he was living a very blatant Life as a living as a homosexual very blatantly at that point. And here's this is the irony. I was actually speaking at a youth camp in the Philadelphia area at a sort of a larger than Just like a camp meeting. So I was in you know, a world of revivalism in camp meetings in that kind of stuff and I was the speaker that was addressing the youth and this guy was there. And over the course of the of the week while we were I was with them I had and I knew him from college. It wasn't like I had met him for the first time. We got into a range of we got into a number of conversations and they almost always went in this direction and there were other things that came out later on related to other people and their involvement in the network. And so the long and short of it is this it was there and it was a it was a A bad thing in the sense or in a number of ways for obviously because this is sort of behavior the sort of activity sexual activity outside of marriage. Let alone homosexual activities sinful, but this really messed in people up and I know the people who got messed up through this stuff. So these are not healthy people were talking about here. These are people who are damaged people now, I know that there are people who might be sympathetic to the LGBT community and in they would Miss my observation and say that's just because we live in a society in which you know homosexuals and what have you are Shane blacklisted or what have you they deal with the problems that come from condemnation, but I don't think that's the case in these situations. I think these people were generally genuinely messed up by the activity itself. So that's That's when I realized that my I was I was generous in spirit but also naive now there are a couple of other exact experiences that I have but not as not as a younger man, but as actually as a pastor there have been people people from my church here in Manchester, Connecticut who have gone to Gordon College. And Gordon from them that Gordon Gordon College and Wheaton College and while attending this schools got sucked into the underground LGBT networks and are now living in one case as a homosexual with this partner and in the other case a woman is a lesbian with her partner the second case at Wheaton College The Seducer was actually the daughter of when you know it a United Methodist pastor. So anyway, miss, you know, having some kind of knowledge of what goes on inside the world of methodism and I'm not terribly surprised. But but anyway, I was talking with someone just last week about this particular story and and this couple an older couple said, you know what we know somebody who had this exact same experience that we can College. They young woman went to this school. And while she was there she got involved in the underground homosexual can't work now obviously in each of these institutions Eastern Nazarene College Gordon College Wheaton College stated policies of the school are sound they don't support this kind of thing there. They discourage it imagine that you know, if the authorities at Easter Nazarene College had had good information back in the day. This was in the 80s there with that. Have led to suspensions or expulsions. I don't know if that would be the case of Gordon College and weep college today. But I do know that in both of those schools. You've got people who are trying to uphold biblical values with regard to sexuality. So the point is that's why these are underground. So these are these are networks that exist without the school's permission, but that doesn't mean that they're not there. so if you're you know thinking about going to an Evangelical College be aware that there may be not saying there always is but there may be an underground LGBT Network there and if you're a parent who's sending a child to one of those schools be aware of that don't be naive don't think that just because it's a Christian institution or Conservative Christian Christian institution or that the state of policies is of the school reject this sort of thing or condemn that kind of behavior none of that means that Doesn't exist now with all that said let's switch over to the situation in the Catholic church was change the sort of the topic of discussion. Let's think about the clergy. Now one of the things that I learned to, you know, my chagrin over the past few years as I've gotten to know a number of conservative socially conservative Roman Catholics is that there's great distress Within in the world of Catholicism concerning something called the lavender. Mafia lavender. Mafia is a term that used for what is believed to be a homosexual Network among priests in the Catholic Church. And the people I know who are familiar with the Catholic church and study it and are Catholics themselves and write about it and what the people I know all believe that this exists in their minds. It's a certainty I had a conversation with a unorthodox believer who is an editor of a magazine that I've written for and I had said to him and of course of conversation. Why didn't you look into the Catholic church. He said well, you know when he was he was coming out of Angelica close to me had been raised as a Baptist and you know how this this whole thing goes and when he got in touch with, you know, sort of Christian history and said, you know, I need to get tied into some church that has some more sort of sort of a direct and Clear Connection to the tradition so that that's why he ended up in Orthodoxy. And so my question was why didn't you consider Catholicism and he just said two words lavender. A mafia that was it shut it down. It's not going to go there. Now if you look at Rod Dreher, that's why he left Catholicism exactly the same thing, right? Yeah. So anyway, perhaps this is old news to listeners. But now here's my question. The question is this why would it be unreasonable to suspect that the same thing is true among Evangelical clergy. Why would it be unreasonable? Not saying that's the case. Case I'm just saying that it seems reasonable to me that that there are these networks within evangelicalism among the clergy as well and that there are people who are interacting with each other and perhaps again now at this is all speculation. But if the supposition is correct, and that there really is an underground network of homosexuals within a particular denomination. Wouldn't it make sense? sense that they would have at least sympathy for a sort of transition within evangelicalism to a more sort of pro sort of I don't know. We're more positive view of this particular Community. The phrase you're looking for is open and affirming. That's okay. We'll go with that. So anyway, that's the subject for the day very hot topic. I know I have a as a suspect that this particular show is going to go viral. But anyway, you guys have any thoughts on any of this. Well, if you look at the situation in the PCA and I'm speaking here as someone who is not part of the PCA church, but if you if you look at the situation there the probably the pivotal event at the general assembly on this issue was a speech given by Greg Johnson who's a PC a pastor now, I would say this is the pivotal event not because was Greg wanted the day he did but because the response that he got and sort of the the shot across the bow is as it were that that he gave and actually along with this a tweet that he has since deleted afterwards in which he said. Alright, we've lost the battle but we'll win the war. It's all the young delegates that support us. The speech is interesting. I would strongly if you're interested in subject to go. I'll go to YouTube. And look for Greg Johnson for the at the general assembly. It's an interesting speech on a number of levels. First of all, what I will say is that it is decidedly short on a theological reflection. Where are you what it is? He draws a couple of bad analogies, but other than that, it is almost entirely in argumentum ad plus Jonas which means an argument from emotion. There's no rational. No discussion or anything else of the key issues that are involved. And yet a lot of people have really picked up on it and talked about how thoughtful it was and thought-provoking it is and so on when really it's nothing more than an appeal to emotion. He never addresses really the key questions. Oh, well, let's back up a little bit further. If you look into Greg's background, which will find is that he spent years denying that he Homosexual up until very very recently. He was a key person as an in the closet homosexual in organizing something called the revoice conference. And it's only after that that he came out the revoice conference was done at his church if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, there was a confrontation church, right, right and in it there was a strong advocacy for what they call Gay Christianity. The idea here is that yeah, the Bible condemns homosexual Behavior. So we should we should stay celibate but nonetheless being gay is a real identity. It is a true gift from God the essentially it is a good gift of creation. Right and therefore the church needs to enrich Itself by adopting the gate perspective. Without gay practice now, I would argue first of all that in our cultural moment. It's absolutely asinine to think that you'd be able to accept the identity without practice but even more to the point. If as Johnson agrees homosexual activity is a sin then why would it be appropriate for a Christian to adopt an identity built around desire to send other than we've thrown the law of non-contradiction of the other side is what I strongly suspect is. Going to be the direction that we're going to be seeing and have angelical denominations and churches essentially adopting. The culture is notion that you were sexual preferences are really the center of your identity and that if it is that they're unchangeable and unchanging and if it is in fact that how can you argue that there's anything wrong with it? I'd like to point out that there are babies that are born addicted to crack. You know it just because you're born that way doesn't mean it's necessarily good and also be evidence that you are born that way is kind of lacking but that's another that's a whole different subject. What strikes me about it is it's hitting crucial world's you questions about what is identity and then on top of that it's also picking up on a theme we've talked about a lot which is the loss of the sense of meaning and purpose to Telos in the world and Along with that the loss of logos loss of Reason in that the entire argument for it. It's based on a logical fallacy of the argument from Passion. Are we from emotion? So these these larger issues in the culture are feeding into the way in which these ideas are being expressed and advocated within the Evangelical Church, right? I know you wanted to talk a little bit about this idea. Yeah, a few things running through this and I think I think you both point out something very, you know, kind of bring to the surface something that is very important. And that is the way in which the blurring of sound Christian Theology and a sound Christian metaphysic has lent itself to the kind of Fusion that allows for the Embrace of things that would have been clear-cut offenses to a classic Christian understanding of this and that you know that we I think we're all familiar with the different strands of history that have led to this and and we've been hitting some of those themes and in previous talks. Yeah. There's a few points that kind of wanted to hit on mean one one of course is This is the question of identity. I think I was just reading the most recent Touchstone magazine where they were talking about the route Michelle fucose famous line that sexuality has replaced the soul in terms of being the integrative center of our identities, which I think would be a you know, I might almost have a large conversation on that because it seems to be one of the the driving if our sexuality soaps so much who we are now rather than our soul our communion with the God it's now our interpersonal communing with each other through sexual expression. Now there is a there is a profound truth there that is that our sexual relationship and our souls relation to God are analogous but the problem is is the way in which the that's layered and structured because what happens now is the sexual our sexual behavior and identity replaces and actually becomes the the dominant in the analogy and the the the souls relation to God becomes the minor and and so you know, that's one point. The other point is the kind of holy secular interpretation of Christian relationship to God and all other things. I mean what you have here is people coming after the way in which their life now. Especially and relational and sexual intimacy is the predominant issue right versus what it means to give up all and follow Christ because it is a there's a contrasting view of Salvation. I know that the reasons for the you know, the kind of centering of Christian Focus now on this worldliness, we see it's similarly in the issue of social justice. And and so I did that, you know the Evangelical left and it's a 10 Not the sort of influence classic evangelicalism in classic Christianity with what they would consider a fuller picture of Salvation is not merely are you know, the soul is eternal relation to the Triune God and the form it takes in the Here and Now for them the Here and Now is sort of almost the end. And so so they sort of put all the emphasis on what does it mean to live your fullest Spiritual existence now that's what salvation almost becomes and that actually is a shift from Kate a Theo Centric perspective to an anthropocentric that that you know, what does it mean for me to live my fullest sense of my Humanity now that itself seems to be the center point of this kind of focus. So, I mean, these are kind of some of the theological issues. I think that are that are getting close now, Important as a pastor where I see this kind of play it's our sort of sort of sort of how things are playing out. Yeah. I'll take an IPA this time. Yeah. We are the founders. I'll take the Sea Hag Let It Go with the Sea Hags see here. I'm gonna go with another cider. Okay furthering the plate. That's right. So now folks and listening land, you know that we're really in a bar. Anyway, that's as a pastor. What would I think we have in terms of you know the situation on the ground? So you've got a you've got a sort of a group of guys who are sort of Hardcore conservatives for whom, you know, the confession or classic Christianity or classical theism or what the you know how whatever we want to sort of uses. The thing that people are holding on to their willing to hold onto that to the end and they're willing to just die if my church dies. Hey it dies and then you got another group over here for whom you know, social justice, you know the Avenger. Left they've got the same mentality they're willing to die. And if the church is going to die, it's going to die. Yeah, but but the metal Mill, they're mostly concerned about the paying the mortgage and meeting payroll and you know being able to report year over year that we have more people than we had last year that kind of stuff. Now, of course, it's all sort of Justified with you know, Great Commission talk. Yeah. Okay. So if okay but when it comes when it went in wear them up rubber really meets the road is are there more butts in the pews and they were last week that kind of thing. And so with it with these guys do is they've got their finger to the wind all the time. They are just scared to death and taking a stand about anything. They're basically, you know, trying to say, okay. What's the prevailing wind? What's the I call it culture surfing so it makes my analogies up, you know one hand you're talking about sailing now, we'll talk about surfing but the idea is there's a cultural way and now we get the latest culture way. That's the LGBT thing. How can we how can we work this? And then and then there's sort of like a court set of things that they won't give up. But what is it? It's all internal. I have my personal relationship with Jesus that kind of thing. Yeah. I think that's I think that is what you know, I get the pastor's that I know that are dealing with churches that are complicated because they all are committed to an Evangelical Vision yet that vision is starting to divide itself along certain lines all and so they're trying to say oh Okay, what things can we accommodate what things can we not accommodate and that seems to be that sort of pragmatic take that doesn't just kind of get rid of everybody that but it kind of invites them along keeps keeps the numbers up keeps the direction going and I do think in that and I'm talking generously here. I think from from a lot of pastors. I know that are committed to the gospel are committed to the scriptures for them. They feel like they're going to win them. Down the road. Yeah, that's right straight. That's so that's really The Lies We Tell ourselves. Yeah, the past that I think is one again. What you win them with is what you win them to that's exactly it. But the other the other part of this is again something that we've talked about before it's this kind of biblical minimalism. Yeah. What is it the what is the absolute bare minimum that we absolutely that we have to hold to in order to be Believers, you know, so if scripture Or thank you. Thank you, if scripture or even more just the New Testament or even more just Jesus. Yeah doesn't address something then do we really need to worry about you know, do we need to do we need to work out the implications into a of what is said in two areas that doesn't dress and and the biblical man. Says no, there is no verse that says Thou shalt not do X. Therefore we can do X. Maybe it's not the best choice, but we can do it. There's nothing wrong with it. And yeah, it's a you know, this is where you know, I'm reformed all the way down. But if I need to quote a Catholic I will and here's one of the points at which I will another I was just reading the recent Touchstone. They were actually giving a breakdown or the former Pope Benedict's article on the sex abuse. A scandal in the church and one of his criticisms of the Catholicism and what open the door to it's sort of embrace of The Libertines ISM of the 60s sexual Revolution was what he saw as the breakdown of the natural law and they didn't move towards a view of biblical minimalism. And so while a lot of Protestants thought that the Vatican II was oh they're moving towards a solar script or know what it was doing is moving towards that biblical minimum minimalism. And then he quotes an actual Source from Tyndale house written by evangelicals in Christianity Today in which they basically said well because scripture doesn't directly condemn abortion or these particular issues. Therefore these things are up in the air, ethically and they sort of went with almost the theological left domains issue. This was Evangelical. I didn't even realize this and there were a lot of nature of angelical voices some of whom we still recognize today that were initially in support of abortion. Yeah. I think Francis Schaeffer did a tremendous service to the Evangelical world because he was one of the guys who sort of said. Hey, hold it. Stop right nuts. Yeah. Now the the other thing by the way within the Catholic Church as someone who is a roaming Catholic having I can accept that. I haven't having grown up in the Catholic church. If you talk to most Catholics at least a my generation and I suspect today is well, they will tell you that sort of at a gut level they believe that the church is the clergy the church can exist without the laity that it is the clergy and if you're a lame and you can participate in the church and get the benefits from that but really the church's identity is centrally the clergy that's sort of the the gut level feeling in you get that you absorb growing up sure when you take that kind of thinking and add The anti donut assess appropriate anti donatism in you get a really toxic mixture such that the church itself is the clergy and it must be protected at all costs yet. If the sacraments which are the critical thing that the clergy does if the sacraments are work X operator a parado in other words, if the newly ordained priest does them they were at work. Anyway regardless Of whether the priest himself is worthy. Yes. And then what becomes the overriding imperative is, even when the clergy is involved in sex abuse scandals. We need to cover it up to protect the reputation of the clergy because that's protecting the church and besides it's not doing any fundamental harm because they're Sacrament still work. Yeah. There's a kind of protestant kind of version of that. It's much more sort of In a land far less sophisticated and that was the way it works is we have to cover for Pastor Bob because we don't want them to kill kill our local church, right? Yeah, you know, so yeah and don't know if they have a personal relationship with Jesus. However, narrowly defined then they're in in the camp. And so yeah, and there's that but then but then there's this I think this common sort of sort of fear that if we address these things too, it's like there's I can't How is quite you know how how how much put but but the idea that you know, the Cure could kill you in other words that we don't want to go too far with this Curative. We don't want it. We don't want to get into things too deeply because you know, it may destroy everything. Yeah. Yeah. It's so that so it's the end up with this kind of complicity the sort of sort of Silence sort of leaking a sort of an agreement that we're not going to talk about certain things and it's interesting because if I was going to take and I think both of these points are very important, but if I was going to take the original point, I was making that from the Touchstone where they were talking about Benedict. I think the argument from the reformed side would be what we were developing over some you know, some weeks is that when we understand the you know what Benedict Was Natural law what I would call sort of created order and moral order right when we understand the centrality of that that there are distinct natural kinds they're meaningful and they have distinct ends purposes and goals when we understand that that gets Vindicated in the resurrection. It does not get done away with it moves towards a fulfillment and it's and its relation to Union with Christ in God in eternity. That's another show, but nevertheless in the meantime those Things have been Vindicated not done away with right and because of that that therefore means that what was what was ordained in the Genesis ordering of things and set forth as the core pattern of things. It's not something that's variegated and colorful the way in which people want to start reinterpreting these things based on their kind of subjects objectives identities, or they're they're kind of self constituted. Selves and I think one of the things that we have to do a little demythologize thing on is this notion of the autonomous self or the the kind of the no-self of post modernity that that these things are either self constituted or amorphous and just waiting for a certain history to give them meaning and that these that we need to challenge the anthropology going on and modernism and post-modernism and vigorous ways. And and not kind of shy away from addressing the fact that that the view of humanity that is underwriting these movements and the church is simply flawed Pagan and wrong right and you know, there's also the damage, you know, sort of the the wounded people that the people that suffer due to these ways of living with the sea. Simple ways of thinking of a couple of people one of them. I had actually had a chance to get together with one up when I was out in Dallas. So Robert Oscar Lopez now Robert Oscar Lopez well known for sort of kind of coming out of that world. They have to out of the world of homosexuality. He had, you know to mothers quote be groping a lesbian household. It was in that environment had no male role models in. Home and it did a number on him and you know, of course my kind of conversation with him. It was a great conversation. He made a really good point. He said, you know, one of the one of the things that generally speaking this is, you know, he's talking to us, you know, we love ideas. We love the history of ideas and how things kind of get to a certain place, but he said, you know, that's great. But what homosexuals really need is not an exclamation of sort of the course of some sort of an alien history of ideas. Ideas, they really need is help get out. And I said you're absolutely right. And so I said tell me about somebody some more now another person who is a wounded persons more a greater than P. I don't know if you guys are familiar with her horrendous story. Just an amazing story. Her mother of course was a well-known science fiction writer and you can still celebrated one, but apparently a monster of a woman fathers a month. I actually read one of Marion Zimmer Bradley. He's short story. Yeah, right. And by the way kiss people when he doesn't that's the Muppets Morris mother and when I read it, I remember distinctly walking away from it feeling like I've been slimed. Yeah, there was just there was just something that felt defiling about it came out in the writing and I no idea anything about Her personal life but what it was? Well, I mean it was just you know, the more a story which is well-documented. It's not something to eat. These aren't recovered memories. It's not something he's made up. There's objective Court testimony and things like that. So what she says, what's the name of the books isn't it the last closet or so the last Clause? That is no respect. Yeah. It's the abuse and things like that. There was heard by her in that household for our are Beyond work. This is the suit and now we got a situation which we've got this sort of this buffering it where if you if you begin to, you know, get too close to people and question them and say, you know, is is there child abuse going on here are the things are going on immediately. You're labeled a hater, you know, you're not you're not really sensitive. You not loving that kind of thing. And that's that's the situation that I think increasingly. Ali many of the clergy who would identify more sort of Evangelical Liberals are guilty and they just won't go there they'll shut the conversation down. I've experienced this they don't want to talk about this sort of dark side of the world that they're trying to sort of sympathize with and understand Defender. There's this thing yeah, there's a sense of you know of love and I think you know one another area. I think that it maybe it's worth doing some Something different talks on is this notion of Christian with a Christian ocean of love? Right? Let me just stop you right there. I almost don't even talk about your girl a pastor. It's been so drug through the mud. It is it's almost like you can't talk about can't talk about it. But I think it's one of those those areas that is where the equivocations are going on to such a degree that it allows for so many things to go on which otherwise wouldn't if we had clarifications on that because the way in which love functions is, he usually gets kind of wrapped up into this psychological sort of this affirmation. This acceptance is a welcoming this inclusivity is just no it's all psychological doesn't have to do with the body doesn't have to do with the social. All right nor does it has to do with the ends for Wade, right? We are as human beings created in their good. So it's more important oftentimes to make you feel welcome in our small space than it does make you welcome in the kingdom of God and right turn right. And so what happens is yeah, we start to say well the, you know love gets so blurred Love Is Love No Love isn't love has to be has to be a full that's well to be loved and the number of things that are buried in the midst of this is is just stunning. So in the Catholic church, it's a sex abuse Scandal to pedophilia Scandal. It is not homosexuality Scandal despite the fact that the vast majority of the abuse is some sexual that's right. It has nothing to do with homosexuality as the with something else or you can take a look at I forgot the guys name, but there was someone who was fired from I think it was Mount Sinai in Boston. Why no your medical school Professor who was getting fed up with all of the the promotion of homosexuality and put an email out listing all of the physical problems that are associated with homosexual behavior and not even just STDs a whole bunch of other things and he got fired because he was being a hater right for speaking the the truth the medical truth on an email system at a hospital right back. So that's the kind of world we live in right now. So so yeah, so speaking the truth is automatically considered hateful, even though not speaking the truth is putting people in Jeopardy of serious health complications everything from colon cancer. T: urinary incontinence, yeah. This is a good segue to something I'd like to talk about and that's the question. How do we address this stuff? How do we do with the stuff now, you know the title of this discussion is LGBT in a sort of underground LGBT and networks and Evangelical institutions. Now, how do we how do we address something? That's clandestine? If you try immediately you're accused of McCarthyism, right, you know going on a Witch Hunt for whatever now I think it's a good thing to remind ourselves that McCarthy was right there were coming as throughout the United the American, you know sort of in our government in Hollywood. He was his suspicions were correct and he's and Whittaker Chambers, you know, the famous Alger Hiss case we Now have access to the because of the public information whatever the Freedom of Information. Yeah, we now have access to the files and we've corroborated the accusations Eastern European countries have records Soviet Union had records demonstrating that there really was a connection with Alger Hiss and all this, you know, all the stuff that was going on. So everything it was it was that Whittaker Chambers said was on the money nevertheless. Yes, nevertheless in the popular imagination. The McCarthyism is pejorative. You know, it's it's as though, you know, this was just a bunch of stuff that was made up in a bunch of people were blacklisted bunch of people suffered. Now we need now today it's very difficult for young people to understand what the world was like in the 40s and the 50s and the 60s when there was a real threat today. We talked about, you know the threat Freedom coming from Iraq around Kate, you know in a way it's kind of a joke. We got a bunch of guys living in caves in the Middle East and their threat to the Western way of life. Okay, I get it. Now when I when we were growing up there was a real threat that could blow us up they could and they had an army that was a match for hours and and and and Nikita truth Khrushchev. Remember in the UN speak was took his shoe off of his beating of Pulpit or beating the podium. We will crush you. We will crush it. I remember watching videos that in church there were guys out there who really could do it and they had infiltrated our government and they difficult rated R, you know popular media and and they were they really were everywhere now when I'm running for out Anna and I don't think there was a politician who dared to say the obvious. His name was McCarthy. He said we need to look into this but now Was he remembered he's remembered as crazed conspiratorial because yeah, so you no decency sir. I know that I know that line. So anyways, so but the point I think we have to keep in mind is that even this little podcaster we're doing today might get us labeled at McCarthy i'ts Does that mean that there's nothing out there does that mean that we're there you can have smoke without fire and it is there is is my my question for the question that I raised that the rhetorical question. I raised the beginning of this episode. Is it just something that should never be entertained? And that question is is it reasonable to suspect that? There are LGBT networks working underground among the clergy in Evangelical denominations and my debt. Listen closely if you parse out what I said, I didn't say there are I said, is it reasonable to suspect that? They're on that's if you criticize me criticize me on that point, you know, if you don't think it's reasonable to suspect that that's the case fine make your case. I think it's reasonable to suspect that. There are based on the fact that I have three. Stories that I can tell of an underground LGBT Network in Christian colleges that prohibit homosexual Behavior. Anyway, now, how do we how do we how do we do this? Well, the first thing that I would say is that there are a couple of their couple of caveats. I would want to put in or limitations on this. First of all, I'm not sure how underground they are anymore. Okay, so let's just be clear. That the fact is that evangelicals have always been cultural chameleon. We've always adopted the look and feel of the culture. Yeah, and right now the look and feel the culture is well, it's rainbow. So I think that it is I think it's in many places open and we're isn't open whether or not there is an active Network. And given the history of Evangelical interactions with the culture, I would assume that there there's a very great likelihood that there are a great many at least fellow Travelers right out because that's just the way of enjoying his little world and one of the Evangelical left your Tony compilers of the world writing some that go back prior to me, but they're still around. Ron side or that side area, uh, maybe try to friend me on Facebook the other day and everything remains, you know, friend of mine. That's how well that means you're getting that means you're getting some some hits but my point is is that these people have been outspoken and they have been very deliberate and they really want to shape the the Evangelical World in a certain direction. I've heard Tony compile. He's a profound speaker. I mean he can motivate you, you know, I just funny I had a friend Roberto Miranda at Boston University. Yeah, he told me years ago his criticism of Tony campolo artificial heat. Yeah. I said, yeah, but but but he could go to those, you know, you know the old Pentecostal outdoor conferences and he could stir the crowd and be the next thing, you know, they're lined up for social justice causes. That's right. But my point is is that that there has been an intense. Because they think this is what they're up to is right. They think it's it's consistent with the gospel. They write books on it. They're very open about that. But they are there. They're not often times. We think that they you know, they kind of they have their space and they stay in it know they're interested is their interest is converting the whole Evangelical world right through that vision and and someone like compose. Oh, it's not simply socio-economic. It is about social kind of acceptance of things that have been outside of historic Christian practice first century some somebody I think it was at the stream did an article that was woke is the new saved Mmm Yeah, that's good. I was just with John's mirac last week. We had some barbecue together. That's it this way to hang out. Yeah. It's a miracle. Is my dessert let's go American I go way back, it's me Iraq is Pope Benedict meets Don Rickles. Yeah, that works. I've been met him that that's great. I look forward John if you're here listening to this. Yeah. I know you're laughing. Yeah, so, you know, the the problem that we're facing it seems to me is much bigger than just simply underground networks it is Is the fact that every Christians worldview is an amalgamation of the Bible and the culture and the question is which one has the upper hand. Right and what we're seeing now is a cultural moment in which lgbtqia whatever follows it is. The flavor of the day. That is the thing that is really dominating the entire cultural discourse in many many ways, right? And that's all right along with the whole social justice social justice Warrior thing. And so the problem that we're facing is we've got a culture that is in many ways growing increasingly hostile to Christian truth and yet our worldview is going to always be an amalgamation of the Bible and that's how you deal with a shit in this is where the pastors who are the sort of like, you know that I was criticizing earlier than that the church growth sort of he boss or the church growth ideology got the finger to the window all the time trying to figure out way to Market a personal relationship to Jesus to the latest Market segmentation sort of sort of Market, you know sort of that they have identified so they have identified the social in these people have no principles the oh, well, they let me take it back. The principle is church growth. That's it. They and they and they equate that with the Great Commission. My bigger Church equals the Fulfillment of the Great Commission and this group will be here this social justice group where this Millennial group or whatever. They just one more Market. Yeah, and so I need a package Machiavelli. Basically not you know, how how do you you know do that? I mean lie I can have my list of criticism to Carl bar. But one of the things I do not criticize and I think it's one of the voices that we as evangelicals need to hear as he was insistent that Culture is not Revelation. Mmm. He was insistent that he saw what happened when national socialism claim to be part of the created order and moral order and therefore to be the interpretive frame for the gospel and Evangelical churches followed suit, and we're behind Hitler on this and he this is where the barmen Declaration which maybe we'll do next round on became so significant because because he understood that when you when you make Culture or the cultural moment the Zeitgeist this you know the spirit of the age equal with the spirit of God one runs into a situation in which there is no measure apart from the current moment. And when the current moment therefore starts to be that the the interpretive head over scripture therefore scripture starts to take a backseat in the content of scripture starts to have to be filtered into the present moment the Zeitgeist of the age and therefore becomes the way in which we address these issues. And so what happens I mean when Hitler claims that we are Geist we are the moment we are we are the point at which the holy spirit is at its fullest sense in the progress of human being if you have no ability to separate yourself from that and and evaluate the spirit of the moment, then then really fate becomes becomes God right hand. Therefore the moment becomes, you know such that the scriptures has to accommodate two itself rather than the other way around and Bart's point was no wait a minute Jesus Christ as presented in the gospel is the measure and he is not accommodate about is not someone that he's not someone who can be fixed into the cultural moment. He is actually the Lord of it and therefore we have to evaluate all moments of time. Light of him. So whatever his other faults, I think he was right on the money when it came to how do we move forward with this is we do not compromise on God's self-revelation in Christ as a tested fully and authoritatively and scripture. I think that's the that's the thing. We can't wiggle away from and culture and cultural mood is never authoritative right in the same way, right? Maybe we should probably wrap things up or kind of go a little long here. You have anything you want to say Glenn before we close? I think I've already said pretty much everything. I've got to say for now. Okay, anything else you want to say that I think that was it? All right. Well, I think I've said everything I need to say I think it pretty clear where we stand on things and what we fear is the case in sort of the world of evangelicalism and we're we're hopeful that we're concerned. Actually I do have sure one thing right. Speak the truth in love. There you go. You want to know what to do? That's what we got to do. The problem is we have interpreted speaking. The truth is being hateful. Yeah, so you cannot speak the truth in love both. We've got to be able we've got to do it. We've got be able to speak the truth and do it in a way that is as loving as possible and if people take offense, it's not our problem. Yeah. We just had to accept that and I and I think I do have it. Okay. Sure. Go ahead and raise a little bag Catholic feelings and around the batter batter can to actually talked about Jesus. He asked this question. He said what was it that went from the gospel being something that actually liberated us to actually the gospel being something that we needed to be liberated from and I think his point was that that when this notion of Freedom shifted in the Western World in particular Allure it had so severed itself from the gospels understanding a freedom that it lent itself. It lent itself to a notion of freedom and autonomy that made the gospel and Christianity problematic. And I think that we can kind of revisit this thing. But I think this is what's going on here people want to be liberated from Christianity and the created and moral order. They don't want to be liberated into it. It's fulfillment in Christ. Wow, that's good. That's good. Well, I don't have anything else there. Anyway, thanks for listening to the three.
Today's show begins with Chris's memories of three LGBT networks that existed in evangelical institutions. These are not hearsay stories, the people involved remain nameless, but Chris knew them personally. Most troubling was the way these networks recruited new members and initiated them. In each case theology was twisted to provide justification for what was occurring. The stories provide a basis for considering what is known as the "Lavender Mafia" in the Roman Catholic Church. For those unfamiliar with the term, "Lavender Mafia" is the name used by socially conservative Roman Catholics for a network of homosexual priests that many people believe exists in the Roman Catholic Church. Chris then wonders aloud, "Is it unreasonable to suspect that something similar may exist in some places among evangelical clergy?" This is a free-ranging discussion that includes reflections on some of the theological trends within evangelicalism and how those trends may serve these networks. As a bonus--this show is the first one recorded on the new recording equipment. The guys are still learning how to use it, so hopefully the sound quality will improve with each episode going forward. 