The almost perfect podcast welcome to the almost perfect podcast celebration of fuck-ups failures and falling flat on your face. There's a podcast of leaves you can learn from experience, but that experience doesn't have to be your own. Huh, Amber perfect a non-functional fuck up. Let's learn from somebody else's mistakes. And today we're going to learn from Lee for Mark now leave is one of my oldest smartest and mostWorld War One friends she's yeah literally travel the world and done a million different jobs over the course of the last and I 20 30 years or so, probably not 30 years. She's only like in the early 40s now but yeah atleast done a whole lot of things and it's finally found the thing that you know brings her joy and purpose in terms of occupation and she's a stylist. She does wardrobe and she does prop styling and and it took a long time to figure out that that's actually what she wanted to do and she's worked in advertising she worked at an ad agency or a few ad agencies as an account manager. She's written for saltwater girl. She was a teacher in Bangkok. She's I'm trying to think of all the different things. She's done. She's worked in PR. She's worked on music festivals. She's managed bands. It's been a lot and so we discuss quite a lot of it in this podcast. And yeah, we get a story man. We get a Story of trying to figure out who you are and what it is that you really want to do. And for some people, you know that comes young and laugh a lot of people you know it go cool. I'm not want to do this thing and then they go and they do it and that's the thing that they actually want to do. But for some of us, you know, you think a I want to do this thing and they do it and yeah, they actually want to do this thing and eventually you figure out what it is you really want to do but that Journey isn't that simple for everyone and so that's why I think this is a really cool podcast at Lee. It's just about that. It's All about the journey. Yo, so I think you'll get a lot out of this one, especially if you're kind of thinking about leaving advertising. Maybe maybe this is the podcast for you, or maybe it's not because maybe you might make bad life choices and be hungry for a while Leslie and I discuss in this podcast. And if you do enjoy the podcast you can lock it on Facebook. It's the almost perfect podcast there. You can also find us on Twitter now, it's almost underscore podcast. I'm on Instagram as almost perfect Bob. Other than that we're obviously on all the streaming services just under the almost perfect podcast. So go find us, please lack whatever you can see that needs to be locked if there's a rating system nearby you click a rating just go 4/5 stars, please not if it's out of ten left out of ten, please give us ten starts obviously, but if it's out of 5, give us five there would be much appreciated also reviews and actions are super super super useful. They actually show his engagement and you know make a change then came. Hey, this is cool podcast and then if patching thinks it's a cool podcast more people will get to hear it and then they are my think. Hey, this is actually a cool podcast. So you think this is cool podcast help me out like that, please. Other than that, you can also go to patreon.com forward slash almost perfect where I'm going to be giving away a case of beer the case of poison City Brewing Beer once we get to 10 patrons. We're at five at the moment. So we only need five more and you can subscribe from $1 to Is to a bit more than that if you want to be a guest on the podcast, so go check that out. It's on patreon.com forward slash almost perfect. You will be able to suggest guests. You'll also be able to ask questions and yeah just get a bit more access to the podcast. I'm trying to think of other ways to increase, you know benefits on patreon. So if you have any ideas that you would like to suggest, please hit me up you can do so adds almost perfect pot at gmail.com as well as obviously on all the social media. But other than that, let's get into this podcast. I think you're really going to enjoy this one and going to learn how to leave a mark with leave for Mark. What's up, my sleeve for marketing business leave a mark. Oh, wow. That's going to be the weirdest intro. Hello. Bob - like everybody else. Okay, Bob. How are you? But we're friends, right we go away fucking back you and I yeah, thank you at 24 or so when I met you roughly around that age. How old are you now 30 32 in like a few weeks when this comes out. Yeah. I don't know I could work it out. I was about 27. And and I'd come home and you were at a bar and I saw you and I was like, she's a cat. Yeah, it was a burn. Yeah, and you were wearing your tennis gear. It was a party though. Like there was it was it was a dress-up party how dinosaurs for this one? It was definitely not a look. There were a lot of dress-up parties that burned back in the day. So did I just dress up this one that all together tennis, but you had the look ahead a headband on I watch with a green stripe in the middle of it and And I think like a polo tennis guy could Tennessee shirt and you had like a hundred people around you and everyone is drinking shots and you're like laughs and saw the party and I was wondering shots and I think about a hundred shots. There you go. Yeah, but I don't need been away for like seven months or something and kind of knew everybody in the scene before I left all the sudden. There's this new guy was like, who is this person kind of got to know him and then yacht rest is history and then the rest is history. Well, so, where'd you just come back from that's part of the sea. And then right so I had gone to Bangkok ostensibly on a year to go teach English as we all do but had this was a while ago before it was like, yeah, I kind of hipster English teacher. There were a few people who done it and it was a friend of mine Andrew Hepburn that was doing it at the time the relation to Audrey could be a great great great great grandson. He's also got great style. Okay, but yeah, and he every time he would come back and I'd see him at all. Burn as well and he told me about his travels and I was like fuck I really want your life and the one night. He just looked at me and said well then have it and so I did my salta and I went overseas to teach but it was not the dream that I had envisaged. I think most people feel that way about it when they yeah, it's not. Yeah because you said Bangkok was like just a crazy crazy City. Yeah. It's like the most extrasensory mental explodes as lots of smells like so Sounds every smile most of them bad because it's just like I don't know who did the town planning in Bangkok, but it's like you've got a little like a five-star hotel and extra slum next to a residential house next to a restaurant. I mean, it does sound like South Africa let's it is quite a lot like South Africa and that way it looks very different because it's the Buddhist influence, but if you took cultural stylings out of it is actually quite similar to South Africa cities in that way but more residential in the city. Yeah. But just you walking along a Pavements and then you know, there's a guy throwing out the fish water from an hour ago next to a salon that's got you know, these lemongrass sense coming out of it and it's 42 degrees. So everything's baking and it's just hot hot hot so I know people who've gone to Bangkok and walked out of their hotel room go and fuck no back into the hotel room and just done the tourist shirt because that's are kind and you can't smell Bangkok but coming from Durban I fucking Love that shirt. It just it feels so alive. Yeah, but then what made you leave was the actual teaching like the issue somewhat are trained to teach adults and when I got there I was teaching kids and it's a vastly different experience. I love children. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to discipline them though. Yeah, you know, I mean like if there's an adult in your class they want to be there. They want to learn English. I'm Keen but these kids wanted literally nothing to do and certainly you have to get their attention. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it'd be more like not shout because tires don't like negative emotions. So you have to be positive about everything but it's very hard to be positive especially with like the teenagers who no matter how cool you think you are there rolling the eyes in the back of the room and you like fuck. I'm not cool. That's not cool. That's so that's so that's the u.s. Like a 20 something like and they're like we need seven I what I thought I was the UN to help things like yeah, it's Harding some tattoos. I to take out some facial piercings, but I still like thought I was the coolest. Most of the teachers that at the schools are taught at but these girls were like like literally literally just on their phones their phones were like mirrors they were doing the if I can faces they wanted nothing to do with me, but it was also so that was a big part of it. I think in my first week there and I was there for a year contract and my first week I tallied up how many hours I was going to have to teach before I came home just to like so I could knock them off and be like a cat's 3200 it and then go down because I really didn't enjoy. Teaching but it was more apart from South Africa had not spent any time in a non-english-speaking place and I didn't realize the toll that that would take on my sake and the only way that I can describe it is you're in a place where there's so much noise and Bangkok specifically like so much noise, but you can't understand a word that's being spoken around you so it becomes this bubble where the noises all around but with it. Within the bubble. You can just hear your own thoughts facking loudly the whole time the whole time. So you become incredibly aware of all your bullshit and I as you know, I'm a person has a fair amount of shut up there. So I in retrospect. I feel like it was a hell of a jump start to a lot of changes that happens in to my in my life thereafter because it was just unavoidable you feel like it came late in your life though because like 2728 is fairly low. Do that. I mean I haven't done it. Yeah, and so are we such good friends? It was probably late and and compared to kids now who are probably like 20 loads. Yeah, and I've stopped their blogs by the time they 15 and really assistance themselves, but I think it probably it was late, but I was from 16. I got myself so distracted by, you know, partying and substances that I wasn't doing. Even just your average person's work on myself and you know looking at what my thoughts were or whatever. Yeah, I feel like my Affair push my twenties were probably fairly similar in that regard. Yeah. It's very easy to just be like I want to be absolutely fine because you're caught up in the job and everyone else around you is also doing the same things and so exactly and so the thing I mean we know each other basically from the party scene from the band scene and so you got into how did you get into that like cuz yeah like because I was also a thing like you came back and everyone knew who you Yeah, like yeah, actually some of the girls are really weird about that because I'd be away and then like the friends in a band had made these new girls. I could started our kind of groupies. I'm specifically talking about the Mars's and I came back and all these girls like they were young, you know, and they were in there with the bands and they like, who's this fucking doll? He's come back and is like besties of everyone. I'm like bitch. I don't know if I can competition. I'm 15 years older than you, you know, my brother's butt. Fuck. I don't know. I think I've always loved music. My parents raised me in a very like listening to music and caring about music but specifically 60 70 staff. And when I was about 16, I started going to shows we were going to clubs. They would have bans on certain nights. So it was the 90s when there's yeah ref station crash. They were predominantly DJ orientated clubs, but alternative DJ at yes and Always alternative they were they'd have like the main floor would be alternative and then they'd have a back flow. That would be like Electro Dance more, you know, they're kind of music in the background but alternative was the mainstream which is a strange sentence to save items such as life. Yeah, and that have bands like, you know, it was 90. It's a spring but new girls are rapper how there's like that there are started seeing live and even though they weren't necessarily like bands that I love the music. I Oh very caught up in the whole lot of music thing. I mean same like you said she like, you know, it's all go watch lots of live bands. They were necessarily my favorite, but it was just a cool thing to do. Like I enjoyed part of that. I enjoy being around that I enjoyed being around those kind of people. So that was always the appeal to me. It was just like even if the band sucked it was just cool to be a part of it. Yeah and generally speaking at that stage. There were more than one band on and arts. Yeah, if one sucked you could just wait. Yeah, hopefully usually like to see the first band would suck. That's kind of how it would go you always there for luck one band. Look at 70 name is that I just maybe even just saying right now, but I mean at this point this point, I'm sure you'll be fine like yeah, they're probably all dead by now. But so what were you doing at that time? I mean you are studying. We're at you. Well yet studied. So like finish school. Yeah. It's so you studied a paucity English and stuff. Yeah. I wanted to go to merits Berg. Just wanted to get out of the house. Didn't know what I wanted to study come from a Middle-class background so very privileged and that I can say that I not studying was not an option. My parents said just categorically you have to place it. Yep. Doesn't matter what you do you have to go though just to get that discipline and that degree. You know what I mean? It was that hanging over your head. You won't get a job without that degree and my sister had always known and you know, she went into the engineering and the economic so we'll get back to that. We'll get back to this one. I'm going to ask now. But yeah, how much has your degree helped you get jobs? Yuck because I studied English and then the majority of the jobs. I got in the beginning we're writing orientated. I think it's a deer adult that degree did help. I'm not sure if I would have necessarily like because that's like most of the stuff you do nowadays like a fuckin has nothing to do with Alexa and even having said that like when I was studying I wasn't studying because I thought oh, this is going to get me a job. Like I say my parents said just study and so you chose English teacher Yes, so English and then translated literature Spanish French German Russian, but all modern literature. So what was so what Riders are you reading? Yeah read for three years. I loved. Oh, yeah line was Latin American. Look at that church. I obsessed with reading been reading since I was three absolutely love reading had no intention of becoming a writer or anything like that, but just thought if I can do it and for three years keep my parents happy and Party was basically the plan and so did you get a merit spoke to do that? No, my parents in their Infinite Wisdom knew that if I had gone away. I would have definitely failed and how to be a dad. So they said nah stay at home. So I stayed at home and in retrospect, I mean merits Burger. Come on, I would have employed it. Yeah. Also, you would have had to go to a crowded house every week. Exactly and not only when all the fuck arising and reflecting and whatever name was a hardcore scene in merits Berg well for a little while yeah grungy, yeah. I dodged a bullet there you definitely did. And so yeah, so you studied your case addenda. So studied jaquez UND when I was there. Okay, every time you close it in a year or two backs. I mean after that. Yeah, so we were the last that got the UND degrees and then after Varsity, I went traveling for a while my dad I'd broken up with my first unfortunately not last toxic boyfriend relationship and my My father wanted to give me away from him as quickly as possible. So he bought us at that stage. They used to sell these round the world tickets that were super cheap if you traveled in One Direction. Okay, so you packed like if you left South Africa and you picked think you were allowed like three or four countries as long as it went, so we were like as I was America England and then back and then it was like ridiculously cheap so he bought myself a mess. That those tickets and got us fucking hell out of Dodge and then I stayed over the F like to use because we all had those like working South African Visa Vibes worked in music stores. And that's when I started to see like bands big bad like that you really want. Yeah and big Productions and start to go to music festivals. I was already going to splashy's I don't think I'd done like wood stocks and stuff in South Africa yet, but I definitely go into like three or four splashy's by then and then ramped it up and went to Houston. Yeah, how big is the The so you've done Glastonbury. I mean that's just completely it's their biggest hands down the biggest Festival I've ever done. But what is that even like like I don't want to go to it. Like there's nothing about that appeals and the first night. I went with my sister and a bunch of our friends and we got there in the evening. It was a really dark we drove in we'd been bussed there. We drove in finding a place to pitch a tent was like impossible. They were you know, semi roads same as as flashy like you can tell where you're not supposed. You camp and whatever and we would just you know, checking checking checking and you'd find this tiny corner. I'm gonna Corner yeah, and you okay and if I mean we looked around for hours eventually we found these little spots that we could have like four tenths because they were a few of us and we pitched our tent and we went straight to sleep. There's no music that night and you wake up the next day and step out of your tent and it's the most mind-blowing experience. There were 300,000 people there that year. It's a city. It's a hundred a city, but it just looks like fucking At ease because you know, every tent is a different country. As far as I can see are smart. He's four days the one day and this is I mean, it's hard to to kind of quantify but we walked from The Edge like the outside edge of the camping to the middle of the festival and that took us three hours. So it would be a six hour walk to get from one side to the other side, which I mean, I don't know how big that is, but it was fucking big that's but yeah, it's not cool. It's to that's not on my bucket list. Mmm fucker like I want to see my favorite bands on like a small like, you know, the underground or something, you know, like it's like England really hard experience to get through. So it's like our little first like or peas hard enough here. Like Opie's fucking hard and it makes Glastonbury look like little walk in the park like first night clearing our we'd watch like Chemical Brothers and you know, it was like that kind of okay, I mean was a job I would be into that. We saw Queens of the Stone Age on a tiny town is the first time that ever played a festival tiny stage 11. O'clock in the morning. We were trying to find some shade and their these fuckin dudes on stage. One of them's got there doc out because he did that from the beginning that guitarist and relax like these guys are pretty good. What are they called? Look on the you know fly, oh, it's Queens of the Stone Age never heard of them and then six months later. The album comes out and you're like, oh fuck, you know, but the big big bands you watching with a hundred thousand other people and then getting back to your anyway point of the story is we got into our 10,000 arts and we both just said, I cannot wait For this to be over so that we can have had the experience but we don't want to be here. I having yeah, you want to be able to look back on it already how many Transit would like that? Have you had learned quite a lot? Probably. Yeah, I think I mean I feel like that on on jobs on like hard jobs now. I like you like I know that in in time. This will be a wonderful thing to look back on but I kind of does help though when you're in a tough experience that you like, you know that that time is coming. That's definitely so quick. That is actually thought I do have some times when like going through a struggle with It's just like you know what we're gonna look back on this and it's just going to be something we laugh about. Yeah, hopefully, yeah, I think I think you have to have those those initial ones where you don't know that and you do look back and then it does absolutely help you get forward you like I'm in the shed or even before it's kind of like taking acid like you like. Yeah. This is a bad time right now. Yeah, but I'm gonna be a great story at a dinner party you end a yam is Identified a that's sort of scary in the nineties. I could imagine like that's the other thing. I've done like know something drugs are very different even from different back in the desert. Yeah even amounts change like I swear to God in the nineties a grandma just got than a gram is now and I'm not sure I was also back in the day like your take one pill between like five people. Yeah, look what but you know, I mean, it's like five poles between ones that would not have happened in the TS know you have died then you then your dad would have had your casket or with your face open. So everyone to see that you remember do you remember that story? It's I fuck was it Oh, I thought it was like some guy just like in a school in Durban that happened like yeah like a kid. Yeah, heck. Yeah every Saturday in the Saturday newspaper in the 90s. They would be like teen dies of ecstasy overdose. Like it was it was the rage. Wow. Designer drugs had just hit they were fucking strong. Nobody knew that you had to drink like all the water. Yeah, that's you know, you'd go out to be drinking already. Then you take something then you dry up and you just have to dance for for nine hours. That's often why I like even to these days. I mean I've had to take friends to hospitals and stuff and like I do think a lot of times like yo dawg just drink some fucking water water saves the day like you won't like a bit mean but also like yeah, like there's psychosis and like weird psychotic breaks happen. And like due to drugs. So if you're listening to this probably don't do it, but do it if you want I'm not gonna tell you not to but it's the Keith Richards thing if you're going to do drugs do expensive ones. Yeah, that's basically it. There's been an see I've just never been able to buy expensive drugs the house of your goal. You don't know I'm gonna perpetuate that so you did like it see that England for two years you look at England and then see the Bangkok after that. So you came back to South Africa. Yeah. In I worked in. Oh, yeah, then I was working in music stores. I was the kind of living like the be music orientated and I kind of living the dream of like what we would have seen like on a movie. Yeah, like, you know, like Empire Records is like well watched Empire Records. I got a job at CD City Andalusia Mall because it was going to be exactly the same. I mean, I worked in a sketch of how many years even animals were how we all made our bread and butter but it actually ended up like as much as you'd be like, oh, that's so cheesy. It's never going to be like it was in the movies it fucking was because everybody who worked at CDC has yet to lose him or Hell or watched Empire Records. So we all became caricatures of ourselves. We came up with habits that we went through the day of the people who worked at look at listen. Yeah Pavilion that yeah because half of them came to burn and yeah, absolutely, but yeah, but they were all that they were all characters and they all like had the music that they loved and they would like Leads us as well. Like our favorite thing to do would be to work in a music shop. If you weren't know we were can't so that's why you would accept the a trend an hour. Yeah. Yeah exactly because you got to laugh. It's so many people at the same time and that should Priceless somebody comes in and they go I'm looking for that song and they say the name and you're like, I'm not sure about that one. How does it go and they start singing and then variably sing shockingly and you're like no. No, I just sing a little bit more in common than you call over all your fucking team workers and it's fucking cruel. All make mistakes. So yeah, don't judge young people are mean. Yeah exactly. That's the takeout. So you've always kind of had a music like lean, but you so you studied writing. Yeah, you work some smooth music stores and stuff, but she eventually got a job as a writer. Yeah. So then I was writing for good old blunt magazine. It's not only got I got a letter published there when I was 16 I also and then I never got my watch. And then the out that every time I'd a big dirty review got published in the magazine shut down. So you've got to write for them for a while. Yeah, I did music reviews for quite a while and I owe my master. I master it. You might have had an influence on what I listen to well. I don't know because I don't know if it was I also wrote for saltwater goal and I understand why then I got given so many shit CDs because it was needed like 13 year old girls. I got a lot of like S Club 7 and shit, but even for blunt, I mean it was just a sign of the times I was getting like stained and And Puddle of Mudd and I but that was blunt at that time. Yeah, why is but they weren't giving me like I'm gonna say Deftones and I you're a you're a hater. No Matt, so I used to be a hater but I'm going to I'm going to appreciate their tons of cannoli the stories. I went giving me that they can be stained. Yes. I am mainly Road really scathing reviews and I actually got fired from saltwater girl because I wrote specially scathing review of S Club 7 and I think I remember that like, that was no. Yeah. You were worried ready for saltwater girl win. When we knew each other so yeah. Yeah it was I basically my review was listing all the people involved in the album and saying those are all the people that could have stopped this because there were so many people involved an album and then they got hate mail about me and I'm not sure saltwater go ever, you know, I was expecting hate mail. I mean, that's a good thing though. Typically, well they didn't they said we firing you because you've got too many opinions. So then I wrote like a farewell article and kudos to them they published. Get it, but I wrote an article on being opinionated and why I thought at the time in my 24 year old wisdom that being super opinionated was a very good thing because at least you had the wherewithal to know how you felt about something. I'm not saying my opinions or so. How do you feel how do you feel about that now because of age and wasn't because I mean, I definitely feel look at Derby does yours and the shit we wrote their kind of similar, you know? Yeah. I mean you definitely temper your shirt with age and kind of I guess Is that you could hurt people or step on toes or fan or whatever as well? It's for your own legal that you do it as well. I absolutely I had a soapbox and I wanted everyone to know how cool you are for I think we both feel like yeah scared of my opinion was and rah. Rah rah, and I definitely don't think that I go around and do that anymore. But if you sit next to me at a you know dinner party, I'm oh you got some scathing opinions. Yeah. No, that's my favorite. Things are batches. We can just sit at like not engage with anyone else like the whole night and just be taking the piss out of Everyone in everything that's going on. It's a lot of fun. That's enough. You don't want to change your call. I think that's the thing about aging is like you do. There are so many things that you learn and change but I die. Maybe I didn't always like it but I really like my call and it's you know cheese is a science that makes you who you are it is who you are and we are all individuals and so I'm glad that that hasn't changed. It's just how you express that call and like yeah, I do find that as you get older hopefully your ego like takes over less like The twenties are such an ego-driven like so ego-driven. I can genuinely genuinely say that I don't care what people think about me now, like I don't I'm like in a weird place because I kind of have to care because I've got to sell stuff and that stuff is me. Yeah, but you're also in a weird space because from the get-go you haven't cared in the same way as the rest of us do yeah, like he had a lot braver to be yourself from the get-go. Well a version of myself like I was never like it's never been Myself, it's always been an identity that like I was trying to put forth, I guess whereas nowadays. It's more actually about trying to be myself. Yeah, like and less of an identity and that's like the struggle I guess. Yeah, that is I've definitely had struggles with that for Xiao. So you wrote for saltwater guy eventually got fired from them. Yeah. I was doing that. I was I was also kind of an underling for a very well-known music promoter in South Africa at the time who was Stand ssibly training me up to take over the festival that he ran but it was more like I eat Chinese food and listen to him. Tell his Heyday stories. You know, I did that for a few years. I know the guy talking about it I can he definitely imagine. Yeah spoiler alert. I never took over the first of all, I know I guess I learned a lot. Yes, I did that that took up a lot of my time for a while. And how many years was I remember? Yeah, you worked in a festival. Yeah say that was about to two years that I was there. And I mean we were Affiliated to a fair number of the record companies. So I like learnt a lot about you know, the production and the distribution and signing and managed a band or two. I used to I remember that as well later on ran stages at splashy and and you know tried to get kind of alternative sounding bands onto bigger bowls and you did that. So I mean also when I like managed to book the one year for the Winston Pub, man Trying to stuff like that as well. Yeah, and we did that that Winston Stage IT splashy together. There was noodles are fun. It was but it was a bit of a mess. Yeah, I would say the hardest part was like always running around and trying to make sure you were going to be where you needed to be particular to be. Yeah. I was the band's was surprisingly easy to fucking find yeah. I was I was part of her but that was yeah. It was like every 45 minutes. I had to find you it splashy and get you back to the stage to enter the next band. Yeah, but the thing is I wasn't even went to like a book the band's I was meant to do it and I freaking chickened out because I'm so scared of microphones, which you're holding in your hand right now. Yeah, it's not the microphone. It's the audience and the audience exactly its audience. Yeah. So then yeah, I'd say MC like that Festival meanwhile like I don't even want to other like I'm not going to mention on cost just like nah absolutely trashed. I was on that face like the whole time. It was a joke, but yeah pulled it off. We pulled it off with dead people. I enjoyed that part and I mean it did help me eventually like book for Outland and stuff as well I said but so was this like a parrot of your life where you were just like trying anything music-related, basically. Yeah. Yeah. I was again I'd say I was living in a privileged space where it wasn't hugely about the money. I was still staying with my parents and then I moved out and moved in with my sister who's always been the responsible moneyed one. So she was kind of supporting my lifestyle at that point and I was just doing anything. I wasn't even really doing it to two survivors doing it to save. If money's got overseas festivals, it was like all about watching bands and then I would write about them and then make enough money to do more of that and I did that for for quite a while until yeah. I mean, I guess eventually it's when I started. Oh, I know it's because of the fucking Visa. It's the South African passport. Yeah system that I kind of ran out of places I could travel to overseas for on a South African passport. So that's when I spoke to that guy Andrew who said you can have my life and if you have a salsa and you want to teach You can travel they don't care about your Visa. I mean you possible to so that's when I did that and then I got into teaching and I kind of left music as you know, as a career if you want to call it that by the way side and then just carried on but we have a shows and stuff as fireman. But when the cameras left good didn't you work in them? Yeah, we'll still dabbling. I mean I still involved with with splashy and with the guys at the Winston, but I don't think I was necessarily pushing it I was over. No and by then I had a job. Yeah, so what was that? Because you felt so the reason why I'm chatting to on those cast like it's because you've done so many different things like and that's what like I love about you is like you're a prime example of someone just you know, living their own life. Like I'm just like not going with a plan not going out. This is how I'm gonna be in this one when you do but it's still going just who I'm going to be today. Yeah, so that was obviously as you say like not planned I'm and I thought about it a little bit when you asked me to do this. The first thing I did was actually like write down all the things you've done because I was like fuck I'm gonna forget something and even now chatting. I'm like, how did that kind of like work in chronological order, but it was also kind of I did have dreams and plans for my life and maybe this can be like another conversation that we have at some point because it was very fear-based and sabotaging myself before I could feel failure that stop me from ever actually. Putting my hat in the ring and saying that is what I want to do. I am Li for Mark and I want to be an actress Arata. Those are the things that I absolutely knew that I was good at and then I wanted to be and then I was you know, that would fulfill my work life. So you got into the writing part. I did get into the writing thing, but I will put it then it's not actually what you think it is. No because the the writing in my head that I wanted to do was creative. It was novels. I was just novels for days and book tours and novels like that's what I want. To be rotting the stuff. I studied at Varsity. It's weird like I love that stuff. But I've always just kind of see myself as a music journalist guy. You know, like just Almost Famous. Fuck I was about to say, yeah, I watched that movie. I was like, yeah, that's that's the thing I want to do. Yeah. Well, you're lucky your watch it early my dad watching the 60s and it fucked him up because he was like what I was supposed to be on that bus like that's he just wants to be Cameron Crowe and too late buddy obsessed at the movie. Oh, wow. Yeah it transcends Generations. Yeah, but yeah, so basically the fact II had put aside all these things I didn't even try to do the things that I really wanted to do and I started a process of doing what are the fell in my lap or or stuff that I felt like I could do like but is that not a bad thing? Like it gives you like Jesus in retrospect. It's the best thing I ever did and maybe this is also the human need to create meaning and patterns and our lives, but my particular Journey. And my parents have said it to me people who've watched me from from the sidelines have said that along the way it didn't make sense. And to me it didn't make sense to me like from the outside. It's always kind of made sense really like yeah, like the things that you do and why you do them, like all aspects of yourself that like I said, I do agree like it makes sense for me. Yeah, but what I mean is that now if I look back it makes sense in terms of getting me to finally 41 doing a job that I fucking love and that like every single job that I've done up until now has not just given me like a basic skills. Like if I can, you know, great emailing skills, but like actually like core skills and attributes and understandings of different industries that now play out in my job and make What I do now, it's just it's kind of easier for me to be better. Let's actually just get to that like what do you do now? So I'm a stylist so wardrobe and props Tallis said buildings. I work majority on Advertising for most people most people are going to say most people going to think a stylist is someone who's just dressing people in close. Oh, right. Okay, so I don't do any profits yet. I would actually like to do that. I would like to take rich people's money and make them look better you could do that. Yeah. I think I could do that and I generally walk around malls thinking that Needs it. So I mean, I don't understand how you walk around the mall where there is, you know clothing around you all the time and you look like such it you read magazines. How do you look in the mirror and go out? You know, it's those are mine. So, yeah, I would love to do that when the energy to be on set for 14 hours a day, you know is not there. So what kind of styling do you actually do? So yeah, I started out in Cape Town and I started out doing fashion styling. So starting models for shoots. And what does that usually ends Okay, so I would entail like depending on the job but broad Strokes it entails getting a brief for what that shoot needs to look and feel like getting the models sizes going out and sourcing that clothing whether it be from stores from divot designers from hiring places getting far more options than I needed because people lie about their sizes and people change their minds on set directors. So you have to have shit tons of stuff and then actually on set to Day to day stuff of like a steaming garments dressing people watching the entire process so that if one fucking color pops up when it's not mean to you can fix that stuff that normal people total olds behind the photo shoot is exactly like if I see a Magazine spread, I will see the one Kris that's still there and nobody else fucking sees it but stylists are like the most anally I mean well, it's seeming like writers see like grabbing a yeah, so yeah. Yeah. Then at the end of a shoot, you know, making sure everything's still there and doing returns back to stores or designers or whatever. So that's like a basic fashion. Shoot advertising is very similar. There's just more money involved which is great advertising obviously their rates are higher because they've got Brands backing them and then the props get involved and set set dressing gets involved. So because that's what you're doing now is yeah, that's more the focus. Yeah. So instead of it being a dress this model. It's Come into the studio make the studio look like a doctor's room. So the chair the table the lighting that it going out and actually sourcing the table. So if you're doing like a shoot where you need to have like a dentist, you're going to either get a dentist room or you're going to find a dentist chair like fucking hope that production has found a dentist room, but if not, you build it in studio. You have to find the dancers chair. You're going to have to get like a gas giant. Okay town that is puss easy because they are millions and millions and millions of hiring places that have there are hundred dentist chairs to choose from depending on what area and color and whatever that you want and you hired for the day gets delivered and it's done but in Durban you have to troll through gum tree and put it on Facebook and you know, really really really work to find that thing which has been a challenge but at the same time, I've got to know my city so much better. Well don't say it. Look there's them not make the job more entertaining for you or more like more doesn't doesn't give it more enjoyable it t to you in a while. It's frustrating sometimes though because I can't do it. Right and sometimes I have to make the thing, you know if they don't have if I can't find the chair. I've got to get the fucking shit you made it does what I'm saying is like is that like a huge frustration for you? Or is it also a part of the job that you kind of weirdly? Enjoy? No. I mean I am enjoying it now in the beginning because I could compare it to Cape Town it annoyed me. But now it's like you got a MacGyver stuff. Look. Yeah, absolutely. And it's Solutions driven rather than problems driven, which is again first Monster. It's yeah, I can tend to be quite a pessimistic person Sam and that pushes me forward and out. Of that which I really do appreciate. Yeah, because all I can get so like when some problems come up like I got a remind myself like just to go like growth mindsets like you could solve it like rather than just like fuck this up Dynam over the shit. So what do you say to yourself growth mindset? Essentially? It's just that was just like just remind yourself like we can do this. Yeah, like it's okay like yet. It's just a setback. It's a nice effect that you're going to have more like, yeah, absolutely like we would if you can't get through this fucking thing and like what the fuck are you doing it if I can't I will break you you know, like I had a boss when I was 30 and he used to say you're a builder not a broker and that I hear his voice all the time. Like it doesn't matter about the problem just find a fuckin solution and it doesn't have to be the perfect like it makes you think out the box exactly just start trying to find Solutions - oh, that's so because that's why I could see so why does this job appeal to you? Like because I mean like you're saying like, I mean, we'll probably get into some of your other jobs. Yeah get it. Right. So you've yeah bands you've managed bands. You've been a teacher and all of that. Yeah, so why does being a stylist now on Howard like this? How does this any of this relate? Yeah. Well, I mean she's if I look back along the way like you boys had style you boys had a cool aesthetic like I mean like your we're in your flat right now, it looks dope as fuck. It looks like it's you know a photoshoot worthy house like and that's always been your Vibe like any time like I've seen you or like I'm like, you know in your spaces there well-manicured they will like put together. So yeah assault as well like you've got style it's never It's never been anything that I've thought about or natural thing for people. It's just you know, you express yourself and this this for me, it's the job that I have the most Freedom firstly. I'm a freelancer. So that goes a huge way to explain why I'm so happy. I am I've got a bug in my kitchen right now that says the world's it actually is the world's. Okay, esteem Ploy e that's a lie. I was the world's worst employee because I'm with you I will do Do the Babe fucking minimum? I really really well. Give me my paycheck. I will start you know, really paying attention had caught it too far. This is why I like I needed the freelance laugh as well because I was the same way like I would do jobs and just do as little as fucking possible like and not do your job well and like and no matter how like I could be into the job. I've had incredible buses and therefore incredible company Bad Bosses who are my friends like and it just sucks like that eight to five some people just aren't Does having to go to a place to do a menial task over and over again? Like I need a challenge I need like that's why I like rotten can be frustrating but I mean even nowadays like my days are set up that like in three days the same anymore and it's like you're always working on different things and that's that's it for me is like no day is the same every single day physically looks different I wake up at a different time every single day. I don't have a set alarm like some days. It's for some times 10 because never 10 anymore, but I'm aging some days at sea. It's quite often. Actually. Yeah tens a bit late these days. I don't sleep anymore like I sleeping but it's last time I don't drink anymore. So hangovers, you know, I'd sleep until to if I drooled until for the yeah, but yeah, I know seven o'clock now, I'm like, ooh, that was a good lion. It's fucking weird. But yeah my days look different. I Am My Own Boss if I don't want to fucking take a job for a week because I'm going away and then I just don't do that. I work with any hot dear clients like line of the Other lots of like there's a lot of competition and urban what's the deal there is enough there's enough of us for the work that there is obviously Durbin doesn't have the same industry as Cape Town or joburg, but we do have like, you know in bold clients like mr. Prices ya know. We've got a lot I really was hugely surprising on me, but it was a huge fashion industry here. Like a lot of South Africa's fashion Industries comes from here and a hue and loads and loads and loads of ad agencies and they're shooting all the fucking time. So there's a lot more work than I expected but The less resources suddenly got 30 starters. It's you know that came in from Chi-Town. We would be fucked like I would say there's probably ten of us that I like at the level that we're working all in their advertising industry and there's just enough for those 10. Like we all really good friends. We all know that WhatsApp group and we all Share info and we share jobs if I can do a job. I put it on the group somebody else picks it up. We're not scared of losing jobs to each other like you are in Cape Town, which is really really nice but Throne 11th girl into the mix and my kind of a caddy so Yeah, I'm here flying. So keeps on doing come here Sondra keeps threatening to come back and I'm like the song says yeah, John Ross. Does Tom. Yeah. He's his status in Cape Town. So stay there and yeah, I mean used to so you started doing it in Cape Town with yes. I was I was in advertising for close to 10 years before that. And I mean, I remember you and advertising here in Derby and then you move from Durban skate over to Cape Town to kind of be on Cave time, but also to get away from yet another Other toxic relationship and this case aren't you get like a fresh fresh start and whatever and carried on an advertising for about a year and a half. Also just you've done all the typical Durbin think so you've gone overseas to study English. You did England. I mean, I'd study. Who's that girl Devon? Yeah, then then you went to England to years. I mean at the time with that was a thing it was the thing to do like if you had like, you know a passport so you could do it's like you can't so much anymore and then Like the Lost thing called open instead. Let's go to Cape Town. Yeah, I tried to like still maintain some individuality and that I didn't like Cape Town. I never got all like gooey about the mountain and actually really battled in case not because I'm disturbing so much. It's weird how you can go on holiday to place and love and it's so different. Yeah, they've their coupons right for a week. Like it's not even like I get the vibe is different in a place, but the vegetation pissed me off. Like I went on holiday a million times loved it to bits and pieces thought it was the most beautiful place ever move there. And the first thing I noticed was like it's really scrubby yeah is you know, we're fucking tropical here and we were my palm trees. We were my banana cheese. Where is my brown sand? I don't want watts and that should end real like it's fun on the beach, but put it in the CBD. It's not right. Everything just looks weird. Yeah, and even like on a mountain beautiful mountain walk on the mountain and it's scrub. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That's Bramble rest. Yeah, so like tents on no. No, it's not quite like Berman Bush or you go to cons club for your time. And I just for me that just like I only hit when I got there and I was like, oh shit what have I done? But now I'm yeah, so I can't go back to my television my legs. That's the same thing like with Bangkok like just cancel out the hours of like I'm gonna works but instead you looking for five years and you could have left at any time Bangkok was what a stand under curfew so we know drugs but in Cape Town I managed to distract myself. Stay but yeah, so I went over and I stayed in advertising basically for like a year and a half and like I mean, it's obviously you're like a talented writer. So copyrighted would have been nothing but that's not what you did. No, so when I first I had been in PR, okay, so that was the step between teaching and advertising was I got a job in a PR agency where our press releases and and I got that job. So that was a job. I got because I had an English degree. Never mind, the English degree was in literature not ratting, but whatevs bro I wrote was literally in reading and not right exactly and press releases aren't going to win a Pulitzer Prize anytime soon. But you know God my God fuck. No so so yes, I was in PR as hating it my dear friend Matt Wilkinson who had known from the 90s and prayers and pissed off and all that shit. He had gone into advertising and he said to me hey heads up. Up. He sits at he yeah, he I mean he's owns an agency now is doing super well, but he said to me there's two ways you can get into advertising one is copywriting and you'll make 5K or month. The other one is account management and you make 15 KMS and guess what you chose? Yeah. I remembered what you chose destroying but I mean, but so it's copyrights on an advertising what exactly so if you're gonna destroy your soul, it would have destroyed my soul and my writing my love of writing so Yes, I win for more money. And and I did do good. I liked agency. Laughs is pretty cool. I had a huge problem in that. I hate capitalism and consumerism. So the selling of things really, you know, didn't sit well with me and I think the universe is also happy but the universe was trying to push me out faster than I was I don't move very fast. So I literally literally apart from like a few Pizza brands that I worked on. I only got given sin Brands. So pharmaceutical company is Petroleum companies casinos. It's not even just like alcohol, which is what I was thinking. Yeah, that's really big farmer. Oh, yeah. I remember when I remember one of the oil companies that you're working like yeah. Oh and I did that one underwear brand that you are my model. Yes. Yes. I got you have photos of that still in case anybody wants to although that was that yeah, not much of that sort of Latter day that I know a company shame. I felt really bad for those guys. They did a really good job, but then I don't know marketing. Yeah. Also the end of it sucked all public wasn't comfortable. Oh was it not? No, it wasn't like that was just you modeling and underway doesn't look comfortable for you. But it was it actually just the cut the cuts weren't great. I mean like you guys gave me what like 50 pairs of them. Yeah. Thank you during them out of cars at one point. Oh, well, there was a video that we did for I did we do that on purpose. Yes. We're anyway, there's any way okay now, this is not a podcast about the many many many many times by was that his ass out in public. No, We should do an entire episode. I can't remember it. So then jeans throw the Gino. Let's just Kara talking about you. Oh, it's all right. I worked for the farmer or you work for advertising again. And then so I hated it. So I was telling the story the other day of having like there's a picture of you know, those frames that you pop an advert in on the side. Oh, yeah and somebody it's a famous picture now somebody had just Tags over it and just says the joy of not being sold to yeah sold anything. Yeah, I had that as my screensaver. I remember the first time I saw that was on your computer. Yeah, I got called into the MDS office and chest has like a child because I was in advertising and I was lowering morale and it and I'm like, we're all fucking grown-ass people we can make up our own minds, but obviously I was in the wrong career. Yeah early. I mean, I think most people in advertising on the wrong career, but they're good at it because they're Creative and they're scared to do anything else. You can manipulate your skills in the right way for advertising. Yeah. I mean like they all genuine skills. People skills make you a great client service. Just listen how many like creative people, you know who are good artists and stuff go to Vega to do graphic design and yam designers in the thing where they could have become lots of steps. But lately it's you know, you can yeah, you go into those things because of the security. Yeah, and it's because it's creative adjacent. I don't think it's necessarily really that clear. like the Jason no, it's not because the brief starts off and that's not particularly creative and obviously whatever the brief is they put down their first big as most creative idea within it's a really been boxed and then there's the 17 and then you would have work that from there, you know, and I distinctly remember my first Ad Agency where I sat there was a long row of designers to my left all the way that way and I swear to God you could see them get more and more hunched every day. It was like gravity was taking a different toll on the designers from everyone else because we were in there like just gift of the gabbing and talking or whatever and these guys were literally Ankara gum hunkering down to make art or to change their heart into something that a consumer and it was fucking it was actually quite debilitating to watch so but then I got into it as a safety net. You know, I was making more money than I'd ever expected to make missing. I think a lot of people listening to us now. We're Because you know, I'm sure quite a few people listening and advertising and or any job that feels safetied. Yeah, you know, I have never cared about the retirement annuity and the pension that didn't bother me. But but having enough money that I could live my not particularly extravagant lifestyle, but you know, I like stuff and I was living that and I not that I was going on like crazy trips, but I was never short of cash put it that way and and that felt like that was more important than my soul dying for a really long time. But I think your soldiers eventually hits a brick wall and goes not made like I need so I'm not sure when I would have gotten out of advertising or if I would ever have gotten out of advertising but in truly form something else fell in my lap and at that time I started dating a photographer who was in fashion in Cape Town and after a few months of him noticing how huge my wardrobe. It's and loving the way I put clothes together for myself. He asked me to start styling for his shoots on the sidelines. And basically what happened in a in a nutshell is I started to slack off at my advertising job because I was making mood boards for our weekend shoots. I started taking sick days because I wanted to shoot and I remembered that. I'd moved to Cape Town to make a change and to be bold and their children the same thing you've been doing doughnuts. I was choosing the safe option and I was like, Fuck safe. Like I think I was 33 and I was starting to go like if I don't start living boldly now, it's a really pretty late as you point out. You know, you should be doing that shit when you in your 20s, but like if I don't start doing that now I'm going to get stuck in this in this in the safe Zone and it's going to be too late to change and I think that propelled me that fear of of not having time to change later. You know what I mean? Yeah, so then I quit my advertising job and became a stylist. Tom just that simple just that simple bar. It's like I mean, it's ignatian letter and then it's done and then you have to fucking eat. Well, yes. Oh, but then so how do you go from that is how do you go from? You know, you've now been at agency five years in Cape Town and the before that you've been doing in Durban. Yeah, so like, you know, like nine years of your life, but yeah is an agency laughs and now you go yeah freelancing where you have to like. Yeah Castle so I lived with my A credit card for a long time I learnt how little you can't survive on. Yeah, it was a hell of a interesting time for me because I had once before being like hungry poor like hungry. And that was I gone to England for three months not at the time with a Visa had gone over illegally a friend of mine. Wanted to see if he was going to get his ancestral. So he went over legally. I said I'd go for the ride and we lived in London in winter. Legally and we barely had jobs and we were we were fucking hungry a lot of the time we lived with a weed dealer though. So we had free weed. So that was quite nice. But well, that's why you are hungry mind. She is exactly and I lived off in all honesty my first two months of the three months. I only ate frozen peas from Iceland because they isn't frozen peas from Iceland. I think I think that's just cold Pease and Iceland. But now this time when I was poor and hungry and and proper hungry at times, I was also dating a drug addict who stole a lot of money from me. So I really had no money. You've got such good taste but everything's changed. I've turned my life around but the I was really really hungry but I saw it as a positive experience this time like I I would I was actively quite excited about seeing how little I could live on like, I've got a I've got like 10 around 27. What can I buy that is going to fill me like I was living Like that, and I understand that that is a reality for a lot of people inside. I'm really not trying to make this as light-hearted thing about poverty. But it for my experience it was the second time. I had lived like that and the change was that I believed in what I was doing. So I was I was okay being hungry and poor because I had a I had a goal and I had a dream and I was and I was willing to I didn't want to tell my parents how bad things were because they would have said to me get a fucking job. Yeah, I could have got a job that that again is my privilege speaking is I could have got a job at any point and not being hungry, but I wanted to really really really try the Starling thing. So I was hungry but that's also thing is if you do get a job, then you don't have time to do the styling thing properly and then you never really do it. Yeah, exactly. So there was the all those times that I wasn't working or like I didn't have enough money, but I carried on and I guess at some point that paid off and again having that like solder on set and yes, I'd get my job done with the models, but I was also Very good at like a talking to the agency people because I'd been one and I know exactly what clients need to hear and I know exactly what the AE needs to hear. And so, you know that it's makes being on this on this side of the fence way easier now that ya know percent and people, you know that side of the room really liked me and then they you know, I would be telling them why I'm starting at a certain way because of what they needed to say to their client, you know what I mean? So that added value for them. I think got me booked again and again and again, And I probably hacked for about a year before I started feeling like okay, I'm going to I'm going to be okay. This is going to bring in as much if not more money than the jobs that what did you think that was going to work? Because you're saying like, you know, you were hungry you were literally hungry. So what was the thing that actually inspired you to go? You know what? Yes, I'm hungry now, but I'm going to work through it because it's once again fairly late in your life to be thinking like that. You know, like that's that's tough. That you know actors do like in their twenties really like move to LA. You know, George Clooney of Starla. There you go about something, you know, like, you know, you always hear that thing of like someone you know, and they young 20s like, you know going to La and eating like, you know, you know don't job or even you know, something like that. Yeah, I understand right? I actually don't know. I wish that there was some like giants Epiphany moment that I could you know, tell the story about didn't knew that wizard. Epiphany probably came before that you like, you know, you just felt like this is exactly what you need to do. I think. Yep. I think that Epiphany was that I couldn't carry on doing what I'd been doing before I couldn't carry on working just for a paycheck that way lay a slow death. And because I have also always had addiction problems and substance abuse problems. If I allow myself to live in a space where I am either unhappy your unfulfilled or frustrated obviously, it'll lead to that and I can't be like happy everyday or whatever but yes in a Term situation then those are my crutches and those crutches lead to you know, really really dramatic fucking distraction. So I think I could also see that becoming a very very real problem. Okay. So basically that laughs leads you to unhappiness and that unhappiness leads you to your addictive side of life essential. Yeah. So you find like with this job at least that tempers are the bit more definitely like I'm not Saying that when I'm liking what I'm doing, but you're not going to like yeah that I mean, I've also gone through long periods of time where I've been very heavily using and I've been very happy in my life. The two are not mutually exclusive and I do have somewhat of a handle on those things at the moment, but that comes and goes but I just I know that when I am not good there is there's no reason to stop that. That yeah when I'm happy I can do it not as again. I'm not saying now but when I look back I can do it in a more recreational functional way where I can party on the weekend and I would never party during the week because I could you have to salute categorically don't want to fuck my job up. Whereas when you don't care about your job. You can Jolin a choose a nice open at that PR consultancy are We Joel we were all drawing it was when I was living with Marty and whatever and we rolling. Yeah, we're putting a lot. Yeah. I mean you guys weren't really even working back. Well, I was I was working. Yeah, but there is the guys I was working like weights ringing bartending job. So it was studying and whatever and I was getting up and going to well some days I was getting up and going to this job and I distinctly remember one occasion because I was actually in a public speaking engagement, but it happened numerous times. Where about one o'clock. Two o'clock in the afternoon. I would in inverted commas come to I'd been at work since eight o'clock in the morning. Yes. I had been yes. I'm not allowed to me and I come too. So the one this this particular time, I'm standing in a cinema. We were doing press tours. We had hired our Cinemas all around the country and we were showing these promotional movies and it was this whole blur bokeh, and I was talking to the Press. And that's when I came to and I was my thought was what the fuck am I wearing because I looked down and I'm wearing the clothes. I went out in the night before but I just put heels on so just like a plaid flannel shirts of my housemates boys ripped jeans and then these fucking I mean work shoes. I mean that is a look not entirely sure. I'd fucking brush my like who knows what I actually physically look like but that happens to me countless times. Ones because I didn't give a fuck about what I was doing. Whereas now I do so, it doesn't save me from addiction but it definitely gives me a reason to fuckin not want to use. Okay, that's understandable. I mean, I guess yeah, like having a thing to not want to fuck up like, you know gives you more of a reason to not do the things that make you fuck that up. That's what a lot of people I'm not going to say use but a lot of people have kids they don't have kids for that reason, but a lot of people who have kids That is a very good incentive. Yeah, like I can imagine like that something you've got this responsibility now. Yeah, I mean we'll look. Yeah, I mean that's a weird thing because looking fire, you know, so you can keep drinking in fact, you know, unfortunately some people do you know, but the thing is, I mean like like that thing they were like, you know with you look a lot of our friends who were jawless, you know, once they get kids they do change they do stop. Yeah, like, you know, a lot of people grow out of it. A lot of people's bodies can't take it anymore. You know, it's The body goes or all the kids come and people calm down and and that does generally happen and I think people who have really addictive destructive behaviors in their twenties and thirties need to be a little Kinder on themselves and allow that to possibly happen as a person who went to a 12-step program rehab as you know, and was told in no uncertain terms this you are fucked forever like you are. Powerless, this is I hate that shit about I hate that shit about the like, yeah, I'm sure yes, they are people who will be fuck forever and really do need every day to get down on their knees and fucking surrender. Yes. They are pure that's just traded one addiction for another shit ton of people who left to their own devices with a little bit more fucking life management skills would naturally grow out of those binge ways. Well, most of us do we do I'm fucking happens and 40 hangovers are real kids. Yeah, as you get old that is definitely the reason why I like I don't party as hard as I used to because fuck it. Like I just am over feeling shit the next day like Expedia. What is the longest hangover? You've had probably about two or three days, but that's also after like Joanna a weekend of like yeah. Yeah. Yeah four days for proper days proper like a really bad hangover for 4 days is not fucking fun. No, that's not how much you And on overeats Jesus Christ, I order two beats three times one afternoon. Like it's shocking see ya. I just wouldn't be able to do that your word because the thought of going to shop is so fucking heinous know like to see that's also a thing as because of my Brokenness. Like I always have to suffer the consequences of my actions have to trap to the check isn't go physically buy a loaf of bread. Well the thing is, I mean, I've got a BP across the road engine across the road at Gardens across the road like so I I'm still getting junk food. I'm just not getting a breeze to bring it to me. Oh man, this mean fun. This is yeah. It has been cool. It's actually been a lot more relaxed than I thought it would be but at the end of the day, I'm sitting on a couch talking to my homies. Yeah, so that's kind of how ya, like I knew it would work. I know you're a little bit nervous beforehand. But this has been a really cool chair. I think people can get a lot out of it. Although. Yeah, like the agency laughs I guess it's tough. We could talk a little bit more about and just the difference now like, How so for people that are in agencies now that might be thinking I could never do that. So I could never you know, give up my 15 to 20 grand and yeah, you know to go follow my dreams but hmm, you know, they're thinking that they kind of went to is there any advice you could give them shut, you know, I mean agencies have been around for x amount of time not fair since like the 20s but yeah twenties so a hundred years they've changed so much already if you just look at floor space on what's digital versus what's If you unhappy in an agency, I would say the first thing you should do is try to change roles because maybe maybe that's safety and the security is right for you, you know, that's a freelance is not for everybody know and and and there's a lot of good. I mean I'm there. I was like fucking dissing advertising and agencies and whatever but there is a shit-ton that of good that agencies can do and an individual people can pitch and proposed and and get involved in that way. So if you You just frustrated with with your clients. You can change that you can change your role in an agency. But I mean fuck at the end of the day. If you are doing what I was doing and waking up every morning and going I mean and you know earlier on it was is it Friday it is it Friday yet just so I could draw because you know you wishing away three quarters of you living for the weekend. Yeah, or just like not wanting to be found out that you're on fucking Google all day because you actually can't bring yourself to do the job then it definitely is time for a change. And those like when I was working at Hollywood like it was it was just constantly finding ways to not do the thing. I was going to be doing and then you spend the whole like the whole time also feeling guilty about that all you're going to get caught out. So you living with like for the part of you wants to get called out at the same time because you partially doing all that behavior because you want to get fired so you no longer have to go into this fucking job. Yeah, the super passive-aggressive way of dealing with your issues. Yeah. I know. Absolutely. I just think that there's so many fucking things that we can do. Do and agencies were like a really cool place to be for a really long time. And if you find out that you that you've tried it and it's not for you like it's fucking cheesy. But again fortune favors the brave like make the Bold decision leave something else will come because you will need to fucking eat, you know, and other thing is also if you have already worked at an agency or whatever or you already have like happening job, you're already in a privileged position you already T, like the chances of the transit of your fucking up. point that your life is ruined by quitting your job and following your dreams a lot lower than like someone who is, you know, any seven care like they ain't right and you can always go back to your agency or another agency with your one-year blogging experience and say this is what I've learned on my, you know, my dream year when I would like to come back like that and I can add value to them safety is always fucking there and I know that in all of those things that I did I could go back to all of those places that that maybe is again a privileged place of lack of had safety net. So it's been slightly easier for me to jump then it would be necessarily a few if you don't have that. But yeah, I've so fucking short laugh and it's also not that serious. So I feel like it's just worth the jump and see cool. Thank you very much. I think that's it. We're done awesome. Get out of the sweaty Apartments. Yeah, let's go get some air.
Leigh Vermaak is one of the smartest and most world-worn people I know. She’s lived a life that’s taken her all around the world and back to Durban, where she now works as a wardrobe and prop stylist. It took her quite a while to figure out that being a stylist is actually what she wants to do though. In this cast, we discuss the myriad of job titles Leigh has donned, from teaching in Thailand, to writing Creed reviews for Saltwater Girl, to managing bands, to eventually landing up as an accounts manager in advertising, and eventually getting out. Often, we hear the stories of people who feel their calling from a young age and find success early, but for Leigh, finding her calling only came in her 30s. She found herself sacrificing and going hungry for her dream job at a time where most other people are aiming for promotions. A few years later, she couldn’t be happier and is thriving in a relatively small industry back at home. Leigh is a fantastic storyteller and has quite an interesting story to tell. If you're struggling to find your way in life, this might just be for you. 