Hi and welcome to data futurology in this podcast. We discuss how data is creating our future specifically we cover applications of analytics machine learning and artificial intelligence. We discuss career tips for data scientists on how to lead and create value from data. And also what are the current and future challenges in data science in this podcast. We interview current leaders. In the data space such as heads off and directors of better science and engineering Chief data scientist and chief that officers to find out straight from them. What were the lessons they've learned in their careers, which have helped them get to where they are today. My name is Philippe De Flores and I have over 15 years experience in the data space where I worked on everything from data warehousing to reporting and business intelligence to machine learning and artificial intelligence. I hope you enjoy this episode. Hello. Hello, welcome to Episode 34. This will be the last episode for 2018. So I hope you enjoy it. We will take a break over the next few weeks and we will come back in late January 2019 to start the new season of that of futurology so far. We have been running for about seven months and I really wanted to thank you for listening to the Podcasts and joining us on our journey to date in today's episode. We speak with Sally Grove Sally is the general manager of insights at the Australian motoring Services before starting their she amazingly took a year of work and she tells us a little bit about that during the interview and before that. She's been about 10 years in banking working in large banks in Florida analytics having lots of heads of positions and getting really interesting learning throughout during the interview. Sally tells us about her story where how she got to where she is now and what are the lessons learned from which we can all learn from and become better professionals. I hope that you enjoy the interview. Thanks again for listening to the podcast and we will see you again in January 2019. So as far away who you say it like that, but it's actually just next month. Enjoy your end of your brakes and see you again in a few weeks. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Hi, this is baby flurries. And today I'm speaking with Sally Grove. How you doing? Quickly say, how are you? Yeah, good good to have you on the show. Thanks and have a great day. Yeah, I know. I know I think for album having me at your office. This is very nice. So at the beginning I wanted to ask you. How did you get started in the data space for the your journey looks like a dream. Yes. I wasn't really looking to get in. So that is face. I think like a lot of people probably ten years ago kind of got out of it degree. You must medical physics. I was wondering what to do next and I think a lot of the advice is going to go into account in C or going to teach you those didn't really appeal to me at the start of time. So I look for jobs at that had the prerequisite of mass and work for the a graduate recruitment company. They've got to give you been bro, and they don't so they specializing in jobs for entry level jobs into organizations. Not even for the graduates schemes like the big companies have more decentral jobs, and I found myself in a job at a bank in fraud analytics. So I started off that got me into Say that the banking industry and then also the analytics industry. So I worked in the card fraud area. So responsible for identifying the fraudulent card transactions so credit cards or debit cards out of the genuine ones. So if you've ever had a phone call from your bank or text message for me back saying did you make these transactions we were the ones that were writing the rules to identify them. So it's quite an exciting space to be in I've only didn't realize it at the time but it kind of a good entry role to analytics because you get exposure to all the life cycle of analytics really so you kind of what identify What the problem was so when the fraud happen to them finding what the solution was writing that the model to then implementing it in production and then monitoring it see how to kind of get it right? Because you had the ability to essentially decline every single transaction some was making on their card so a bit of pressure there, but great exposure and kind of didn't appreciate the luxury at the time that you got the whole lifecycle man in one day Watson so you could be there, but I knew fried attack to riding a role in the system and monitoring it and it's feedback as well. So you'd be getting a fraudulent transactions. On January like the false positive going to ratios then and there compared to kind of further down the line. When is working credit card. You could be like two years before, you know, the success of some golf, you know, if someone's responded to a campaign but was the campaign as what you expected can take like two years to kind of didn't make money and where this was instant and often in a day so I look for you in some ways. Yeah. I hadn't thought about that. But yeah, you give type feedback loops and and doing the end to end which is the best yet. How was that first job that you had how was it different to what you expect? It or what you thought it might be. Yeah, I think the biggest thing I remember was just how an organized and structured work environment seemed to be you're going to go from the other boys in Academia before so going from uni from where you're kind of you're hypothesizing you're writing papers, you're structuring. It's all kind of detailed all documented you go into the working environment and nothing documented kind of its kind of some peer review checks, but kind of loose often and just like straight there with the responsibility. So kind of scary in some ways that you can think eyes are not like a higher. See where you'll review it. And actually there's something that happens. Like I'm just glad I can put real then. So yeah that was covering for me a bit of a shock to the system. But exciting it was kind of fun to be working rather than like, yeah earning money to have fun learning money rather than spending money doing the study. So yeah, enjoy the work for you. It means you enjoy it. Yeah. Well, yeah and it's got the real data rather than very nice polish datasets or polish problems where the solutions already known. Could you kind of just answering questions events really let people know I did. Didn't do a research. It was always kind of set problem. So you can learning more their techniques. Yes, where you going to business the kind of the you having to find the problems work with the live kind of daytime real when there's actually a real thing impact in the real world. It's a lot more exciting and how did you start to balance the research and the business value how far to take projects or how much work to do from a technical perspective versus how much work could or should be done to get the business value right and Frolic and you kind of have to if If there was an immediate thing, you need to put a roll into to stop the fraud. You kind of have to be quick and respond. You can't kind of wait for a long time to put it in make sure everything's perfect because you could have not had a lot of losses all sorts of money. And that means I'm so you kind of the speed kind of was a control you can a limited the research but then equally because you are putting things into real-world environment. You're going to have to be accurate because I can and I'll play with the 80/20 rule kind of it's easy to you don't have to be perfect get something out there get it. Okay and get it learning and get it working and learn from it but in for you kind of have to be a little bit more 95/5 rather than 80/20 because you so you do have the ability to decline everyone's transaction. So it's where the monitoring it making sure. It's kind of okay and the compromise between speed execution with and also not impacting the customer experience I have to say now is the best obviousy bias, but the best people come from a risk kind of operational background because you learn to be accurate you can have the check double-check triple-check. How else can I validate that this is okay because my head could be on the line if kind of was Many systems down. So I think yes other people have seen from that kind of industry kind of have that quality checking was a lot of people if you've always been in the 80/20 space which has great other skills with it, but people kind of come forget to kind of the check at ease and point of a code and it's so easy to make a mistake in a little thing like a comma or an and or something goes wrong. It's not there but fraud makes you kind of check each step other all kind of the model it see what we can do and how did you find banking as an industry when you first encountered it? I think one of my experience or bunkers will be changed. Over the time I think the module you are the less you're exposed to kind of the business strategy the politics and everything that goes on so the early days it was probably I know kind of experience will be able to kind of Industries. So that makes sense. It was the first industry so didn't know any different and it was at the junior level. So you're not exposed to a tougher problem. There aren't strategy and politics. And so then after being how long were you in fraud in the end? So if three years in fraud in the UK, and then I moved to Australia and it did two years here and then move to the product side. I think the experience is that whilst year 600 more Junior kind of less exposure to the politics and the business that is also risk and Industry kind of our felt Silo do kind of like physically recite loading a different area of the business in Australia. Anyway, and you kind of you're stopping money going out of the organization. It's kind of it's almost like a lose-lose situation. You do a really good job, right some good kind of rules and have good customer experience and I was complaining and you're stopping the fraud so you're not losing that much money, but no one really knows about it because you're kind of just like a silent person. Even there. Yes, you do have a job or not solely about job. Just something kind of happens and everyone will know about it and you get the pressure on you. So risk is kind of its can be a quiet existence or it can be a full pressure environment. And then when you go to the product side and you're making money for the bank yet a revenue-generating area, there's more exposure. So you've got to within the business you get exposure to the different areas marketing product development projects kind of areas the different product areas. So there's a lot more exposure so you get kind of more exposure to what what happens in. Funky space as well and then kind of higher up the ladder for F1 over to speak to kind of go the more experience you get exposure to kind of get to the politics kind of that happens in terms of the the financial targets kind of they have they grow each year. You have to meet them no matter how its the regulation environment is changing as more pressures customer experiences are getting higher but you kind of put a keep meeting the high demands and the kind of selling the value of kind of the analytics and what we should be doing versus other salesmen in the area. Yes. So when you moved into the product side what? What products are you working with? And how was that experience yesso doing various restructures. I think we've had Sons actually counts personal loans and credit cards to credit cards which will be the main one that we focus on consumer credit cards. And so the kind of the the life cycle of that. So the acquisition of credit cards our portfolio how people are using it product developments going to expose you to the new technologies like contact tap and pay now pay the tapping your phone the pricing elements what fees and rates to charge so when you're getting closer to the business, Product side. How did you start to sell the value of analytics how you're able to get people excited about using analytics on the for the business problem is Lucky's why would I started off in the team as I senior analyst and I got promoted to manager and then heading up the team. So I had to expose you over the flight my manager previously doing a lot of the cells up for that. So I kind of had it easy in some ways because it's kind of riding his wife. Yeah, and the team was quite good in that they realized I think that the wider team so we're an analytic function within the product. Oh, so you had a personal loan product team a credit card team and they were kind of data-driven people. So they would ask the questions. What kind of what was needed in terms of the analysis some ways you didn't need to necessarily sell it in that case. The demand was there it's probably the usual kind of problems of what questions are asking is not necessarily what they should be asking and the influencing of what what the question that the problem that should be that they're answering is probably more disabled jobs that we had to do and as well as teaching my team as well to make sure they're asking the questions are not just the obliging and Help people out with the questions is make sure the Italian Simon and get the right questions as well. So yeah, the selling of it was more the right questions or the right things that we should be looking at educating stakeholders. So that's very interesting because you're educating the stakeholders, but also getting your team to do the same. What was your process in doing those two sides? How would you help the stakeholders get to the right type of question to ask in their situation? Yeah, I think pot is going to having the someone kind of puts in a request and we are gonna of a system where you're going to of algae in SharePoint. I think it was at the time putting the question but asking some questions of why they needed and what is false or trying to draw out the initial Y in those but then once you kind of got the the online kind of form request is stick with the real question really understand what they're wanting kind of more understanding the business problem behind it to help me kind of really understand what the Y is and then talk see. Well, I know you've asked for this but we'll kind of this do as well or do you want this and then sometimes it can be worked out in those kind of conversations and kind of get buy-in of what the actual kind of mock-up of what the output should Other times it can be kind of actually you've asked for X I going to give you X but I'm also going to give you I always think if they've asked for something and adamantly want it and if it doesn't take long effort to do it might as well do that as a by-product of what you think they want as well. So then it kind of keeps them happy and if it is really what they want. They're still got it, but then you've also got wider kind of piece of insights that you can show them because what you think the real kind of problem is, yeah and you have some good world to say you got what you wanted and also yeah, you don't know make them unhappy by not providing it is that we just haven't listened to me as I still have listened to you. But I also kind of think this is well. What do you think? Yes and lead with the work. That's really good. So how long were you in the product side for five years in total in the product space. It kind of seems like a long time in height. So but it's being such a varied team was kind of easy to stay excited. I'm pretty happy as I'm constantly learning and kind of each time. I was kind of getting to the end of the right. I'll be ready for something you kind of get something new or whether that was a technical kind of learning something new and moving from say looking at credit. That so then looking at Justin's actually Council learning how a different product works or kind of moving from senior analyst of manager and head up with kind of a different soft skills of of learning and then also in the product space you get exposure to different areas of kind of the analytics are going out the pricing the marketing and the product so it's kind of it's quite varied. So it's kind of like biased in that in hindsight that it's such a great team to work in because you get kind of exposure to the whole life cycle Plus in the customer experience as well and the pain points what people see in The NPS kind of scores as well. Well, you kind of team that does quite a lot of varied things. So it's an exciting space to be. Yeah, because you're moving across so many different dimensions as in like the responsibilities around the roles the functions and the product sort of like a 3D space. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, and I thought we could have said well, it could have definitely stayed and learn more because there's always more to learn in that space. I think it's time for me to move on in the end anything. What did you do when you left it's good personality. I went traveling. So yeah, I decided my purse. No, one of you that ten years in banking was probably long enough and I didn't have no kids and their mortgage. It was a good time to that. I would leave and when I get to the age of retirement I go up fi done. So hundred percent. Yeah when traveling to South America North America and then back to England for a couple months his family and when people do long trips, there's always the question which I don't think is the right question at all. Like people always want to know about that the highlights. Oh, yeah your favorite spots, right? But what are some of the memories that you You carry with you still from that trip some other. Yeah, I think they're not America. We hired a campervan from LA and very bit for about 20 days and doing a loop through the national parks ending up in San Fran and just kind of the the freedom the kind of relax is what did we do today? And then the beautiful view that year seeing everywhere. There was just awesome. So just in Perth last week, I had a long weekend there and some of the national parks are they kind of gives about memorizing like a we should do it again because reversed Yeah, what's wrong with just getting out and doing it again? But no, I'm just saying so I ran the national parks in California that they're beautiful. Yeah, it is enmity Death Valley Bryce Canyon is Awesome with that where you been? I have not been into the national parks and I've been to some friends anyway, but if like I've heard amazing amazing things, but it's just and Yosemite it's so famous and huge apparently. Yes. It's the service is kind of got everything. You kind of just like that. It's got the water. It's got the rocks and kind of the the forests and then other things it's so a lot of people would love to do that. Take a career break and go traveling for a long time. What do you think stops? Most people? I was wonder what stuff people? Yeah. I wasn't being the didn't know how people can find it hard to use up their annual leave and when I'm like, Here 20 days is not much. I don't know if it's the Fear Factor of the like I'm losing my job or happen. I mean when I tell people say I didn't just up and quit my job. I think I left in June last year and I told my boss in Jan Feb time, I think and again their heads up. This is what I'm looking to do feel like give him time of this was happening and love feeding give it to me then and there I still carried on working didn't tell everyone until kind of later when they want to cause too much disruption within the team. It was telling people it was kind of everything. One was in a jealous and like always wish I was doing that. I don't wish I could do that. There's only one person that when what are you doing? You're leaving a good job and a good company and like, yep just have to telling obviously it's not for everyone if you've got Financial commitments or family commitments and obviously it's not just as easy to up and leave but I kind of live life by their regret. So like what's the worst that can happen look like I was in a good position financially and familywize and my partner had long service leave as well. So he didn't have the great if you could just take that and And some other savings and have a long break it worked well for me, but it's kind of a definitely do it again. And I think kind of Lucky in this industry as well that there will be jobs about yes, whether that's kind of like I did a bit of Contracting before I am I got my current job because I wanted to take the time to find the right next role. But again lucky I was kind of in that position where I could take a bit of time and kind of fell into a Contracting position that was doing some credit card analytics. So it was kind of back into my safety comfort zone and I could kind of do it without really thinking so yeah, but I think yeah my advice Is this do it? You learn so much to think by exposure to different cultures different environments have for me as well. Just the black station and a part of it as well from being think 10 years in banking the last couple of years kind of model leadership in the and a high pressure sometimes in terms of the the role that you can get with the leadership roles. It was kind of nice just to kind of reset and just like after myself everything I have probably one regret some time working in the bank was probably too much time working on the bank rather than working on me. It did help me learn and by doing the work, you still kind of learning but it's kind of it gets the point when if you're doing kind of just stuff that is repetitive and you're not really learning. It's doing the late hours to hit this task or because someone high up there. That's the question that they don't really need to ask but you need to answer it now and then it's kind of when it's and you're not letting you necessarily getting the exposure and leave the credit that you or the team needs and it becomes more about a to-do list. It's not that fun. And you start working along hours. We're not getting when the payback for me is not there. So now I'm kind of having the relaxation and kind of coming into the new role and He's going to making sure that I don't forget the role and kind of still obviously meeting targets and objectives and working with the team. But making sure kind of I'm developing on myself as well and learning new skills or reading articles reading books and things like that. You kind of it's easy to get it was easy for me anyway to get in the Trapper and I've been kind of just working for the business rather than working for me. That's a really great realization actually do make sure that you're depositing back into your bank account. Actually in the end and it was a time to go every night. It's deposited Lots in the meantime as well. I had a great time and it supported me and development. I wouldn't be here why I was without all the people really respond help that they gave me and were you tempted to stay overseas during your travels at any point. I thought about it for me because speaking English. So I'm English. My partner's English we met over here there. So I'll kind of friendship networks in Melbourne or both of our families were back in England. So there's always a family of all yeah, and so I had I spent Christmas over there and kind of look I doubt that the job market and the job seem like there's more jobs in London leads in Edinburgh, but I don't really want to work in London would be willing to work closer to family if the reason going back is closer to family then so it wasn't really the right time and I think I'm kind of the end of day we both like it here. So I might as well stay here a little longer the industry that were in is really good in Melbourne at the moment. My celery is a bit better as well. So there's no need to go back just yet your wife. Yeah, that's great. Did you have people before you Did you have people saying come back? Make sure you come back? I think it was more people had burst that I wasn't gonna come back. Yeah morning that their family card in England, but I think Maya they're pretty supportive. That's such a good idea to come back and do some Contracting while you look for the right role because then that definitely takes the pressure off. Did your partner go back to his old company he did. Yes. So you came back a bit earlier than I did because he didn't have his long after he came back in November and I came back January is that She moved balls now move companies. But yeah, he kind of came up. And what were you looking for for your next role or during the time that you had off? What were you thinking? That would be a good next stage for you and your career? So I was looking to get out of banking more just because I've always worked in banking. I wanted to know what it was like elsewhere then any particular problems with Banking and looking to move in a smaller company. We're kind of less kind of politics and can you just get the job done and try and make more? And just quickly looking for somewhere. They took data seriously. And so you had buy-in from the CEO and support her and like we're we're kind of the industry other product kind of excited me when I had some influence and sway as I looked around and I found that in the end of the current company and its small company when you've got kind of three different main pillars. So there are rewards aspect of the Loyalty scheme. I travel kind of component with travel insurance my roadside assistance. So probably never looking to go into roadside assistance is a big part of it, but it's is new for me. And so that kind of excites me and the opportunities we can have in that space. And what does the CEO support look like in practice because I've heard that a lot of people sometimes get frustrated that they say what they find that sometimes CEO or direction from the top of my say the right words and as in like, yes, we want data it is key but then the action sometimes don't match the rhetoric. So what is it look like in practice in terms of what is good look like I was basically I can't be active. It's been a million for months in so I hope that it continues as it has but for me, that is an EVO blockers kind of helping me out and whether its funding or whether it's people and kind of having those conversations to kind of get by in in terms of the strategy. So at the moment I'm kind of in the early stages. It kind of seemed unseen kind of doing the diagnostic of where we are what one of the strengths and their the wings opportunities to kind of build out what the strategy is. So hopefully if you're listening is going to buy anything, so it's my responsibility. Its ability to paint that picture of what the data strategy the analytic strategy should be for the business and what we can do with it. So I'm in the early stages of that and kind of tackling that by going to do some kind of quick wins and small improvements so that avoid having the microscope on me at the moment because if you can he's kind of the person that you can see that you're going to do in a good job and making improvements and kind of don't need as much Focus but is that a very supportive that it can have a chat if we kind of need to what so a problem, but other than that can Maybe in and of let me do my thing, which is great because it's there when I need but I can not be micromanagement going to do your will o one as well. And that's kind of the support that what it means to me is going to be funny to some help to help educate others. He's kind of got my butt. But also let me finish a pit as well. That's why we crave and how are you going about creating the data strategy? Yes still fairly early days. Yeah, and so that my initial kind of thoughts is how can you make use of what we have today? So I think we're getting a lot of data in that. We're not using to its optimal. Capability. What can we do with what we have today and kind of uplift what we do then I'll be thinking about what are the external kind of datasets we may want to incorporate or how may we want to expand the current that is that's a lot of the data sets that we have at the moment are from other businesses. We've got currently a B2B company. So we get data from other companies. The team is mainly at the moment when we get data in and we get data out and it's been a kind of a bi data management quality using mainly to make sure the business run smoothly rather than we've got this data. What can we do with it? So it's understanding. What can we do with it now to then, right? What do we actually want to do and do we have the data and do we need to amend what we are getting and then what kind of the new ones you want then there's the the system was so it's where on-prem at the moment and it's working. Okay, because put only what we need it for we're not really pushing it to its limits but is that going to be fit for us in the future? So there's kind of understanding that at the moment because I think no doubt. I'll get to the stages where we need to business case and articulate the pros and cons. We stay on Prem doing move to the cloud. What's the benefits and articulating potentially future use of it? So the future Demand by we do my analytics and models is going to be more Grant which then do we have what we want if we get more data, is it going to take maintenance backup longer on-prem speed on the cloud and things like that and it may be that it's it's actually on crumbs. Okay, but it's kind of our we make sure we review it so that we understand it in the future Readiness to move along with what we want rather than getting red been getting up lifting the capability skill set. In the team and then not being ready. Yes, how can we move the to how are you balancing the long-term strategy build versus a tactical short-term wins that I'm asking because I'm having a moment, right? So yeah just started a new job less than three weeks ago. So I think this is a start of week three for me and I naturally tend to wanting to prove value quickly provide value quickly and while I'm sort of putting still putting together the strategy and and trying to be patient enough to understand the organization their maturity their pace and way of working and everything. How do you balance the quick wins versus strong balancing the leading the team grow and develop in teaching them to do it rather than the tendency for me to jump in and do it as well. Yes that yes. That is an awesome Point. Yeah. I think it's a constant battle. It's going from being stuck in the business or on the Dance Floor versus on the And working on the business is kind of the balance and I've probably spending a lot more time on the quick wins and doing things because it's hard and as you see the opportunities the excitement or we can do this. It's great and they're doing it and people getting excited too. But it's then realizing that if we just keep doing the small quick wins, and it's not actually going to develop the bigger the strategy. So it's it goes in Cycles in some ways. I'm kind of Lucky by the nature of the job requires me to travel a bit into state so that also kind of gives a reflection time as well because when you're kind of doing the traveling, it's I'm not necessarily coming into the day. Today office and getting stuck in the Trap but it is it's kind of a conscious effort that I have to make because it's like The To Do List kind of grows and it's starting to get to the stage where you may say? No, we can't do something to work on the bigger picture. So at the moment we're working on enhancing the self-serve analytics seems predominately in the past been doing a lot of bad hot with questions. So we were going to B2B business and so we have external clients and it's providing an insights packs for them. So you kind of do an ad hoc kind of this is what's going on in your portfolio, but that takes time and it can take up to two weeks kind of just don't On what's going on in that portfolio and present it? Whereas I think a lot of it can be automated so we can get do that self-serve for the account managers can get those numbers which would then free up the team's time to kind of do more. Well what's really going on and not just a high level kind of stats book like what's going on? Why is it going on and can we provide them some recommendations? So you have to kind of take the time to build the capability to do that. So it's instead of say taking two weeks to build. What an ad hoc insights packets going to be say a month or so to kind of build a whole Suite of self-serve. Things but in this it's longer in the short-term pain for the long-term gain, and it's luckily. I think I've got buy-in from the stakeholders that you can kind of see where we want to go. And again, it's not kind of building the whole self of sweet and then showing them at the end of it. It's kind of I've taken kind of a three-step approach these kind of one is just uplift what we currently have small things from just making it look good. So it's getting a style guide in from our color scheme and themes and everything looks the same rather than using as many colors as you can and and things are just uplift current capability. Yes, that gives them we Showcase what we've got and hopefully make some quick wins in that space but also then kind of share the capability of what can be done because often when people kind of haven't seen the likes of the data visualization power bi Tableau Etc. They kind of just want spreadsheets. So it's going to educating what is available by showing some initial insights and then work shopping with the now you seen this. What else do you want? What are your current pain points? What do your clients ask you for on a daily basis what takes you a long time to do? So then build a kind of prioritization framework for future dashboard and then build measure learn repeat kind of Love them. So it's working with them as well in a kind of trying to get the instant or not often hard to get the instant feedback. We stakeholders when they want something they want it now, but when they want to win and when we need them to provide feedback, it's not yes. Yes. That's the initial question was but so you were saying about your three-part plan or First Step Up lifting the current capability yet. Then second step is workshop with the business and then three step is iterating build major Larrabee's So I kind of get the self-serve up there and then it frees up hopefully more time to do the advanced analytics. So I think that part of the question too. Yeah. Yes and essentially in that Journey how important is it for your strategy to be able to see how people use the dashboards in their self service manner to track essentially being able to see how they interact with it what filters and knobs they move and but things are look at verses not look at is that something that is important? Yeah, I think It is almost like the ux kind of side to the role is hardened. The learning development of the team at the moment is like from the simple things of just getting it looking but as I was saying before kind of having it something look good, it's easier to get used more likely to get used and that's from the the kind of the look and or delays the order of the kind of the filters that you can have or even just the names of the filters. So it is important to track it don't think necessarily we're tracking it as well. As you could do at the moment down to the actual kind of individual kind of parts of the page. It's kind of Looking at in the context if it's not being used is it something wrong with what's there? And there's likely to be something wrong or it's the awareness people don't know it's there. But if it's also it's the awareness it means it's not as intuitive as it should be so it's kind of what needs to be tweaked. And so it's the trying to sit with the business to understand how the they're using it as well and kind of Shadow them. So we're kind of going into that stage at the moment historically kind of been what do you want to build? This is what it is build it and then just set and forget. We're trying to change that mentality to it's the constant. Active use of it and kind of the or soliciting the feedback as well as kind of a why aren't you clicking on that button or once you know that's there and things it is important to track because I think one you can also if people are using something a lot as well is what is so good about that one. So, how can we prioritize the development of the the next kind of insights from that one as well? And another one that are my darling my way through at the moment I guess is having tasks that are necessary to do but that may not sit directly in the skill set of the existing. So for example, I don't know that the skills of the people that you inherited but say If you inherited that a scientist and then getting them to do a reporting like a self-service reporting dashboards, whether that means to start a new team to focus on the subsurface that reporting and have the existing team focus on the analytics or the data science. How do you manage that? But do you throw to the Roman gently how I've struck two teams in the passing kind of currently. I've just actually research the team yesterday and it's kind of vertically and horizontally to the horizontal kind of component for meat such as on what you are seeing there in terms of the breaths being the breadth of the product function so that they could cover and also the breadth of the Technologies and so it's kind of everyone should be able to touch everything. So the Brett's been kind of in the current kind of said it's the Loyalty travel roadside assistance anyone should be able to answer a question on on any other tasks and also the breadth of the skill sets is I think a foundational layer 2 data science where everyone should kind of know. All right analogy the other day that it's kind of like medicine. So if Learning medicine. Everyone does the same degree and then they start to specialize so they kind of have a good foundational knowledge of everything. I think data science is like that too. There's always going to be a need to manipulate data integrate data build dashboards do the models but then people specialize in different areas and I think we probably in a similar to me where you've got a small team. So we don't have the luxury of a big team that we can go well, but we got a priority model you need to build her and if I can go to this person or this team, it's all hands on deck. I canno The View that you should be able to ask anyone anything and it's the flexibility to adapt and then there's because there are different speciality is some people may need a little bit more help and time on the aspects versus if it give it to the person that specialize in it's quicker and more autonomous but the nature of working in the small businesses means that the Ebbs and flows of the business the can be a time when there's more need for report built. So there are four models and so it's kind of all hands on deck. I think the part of that the challenges in our space is the expectations of future data scientists is kind of got this sexy name at the moment. And I think people kind of think that can go into an organization's I'm always going to be models. It's going to be great. They don't really care about getting the data manipulating me. They don't even monitoring it after it's gone in correct, but you've got to be able to do for parts. It's not a you can't pick and choose a hundred percent like somebody the other day we say they go. Oh, you know, it's true what they say that the majority of the design this time isn't getting any preparing data and I said, well, yes, that's true if your endpoint is building the model, but if your endpoint is Going into production and you know revisiting and improving it and having it out there in the wild then your data preparation might still be the biggest piece but it's nowhere near 50% or more. Right? So it's the expectation of the work to be done is a really good point and special with the Ebbs and flows of the business. What do you think in your case? What do you think prepared you to have that perspective of that? It's a whole lineup of skills that are required in different intensity. At different times was that that came was that something that came from like early fraud days in your case because you had the end-to-end visibility there. Was it something that you develop as you were getting more senior getting into like manager and heads over all are probably a bit of both. I think the the starting off in the fraud space where you covering and of the lifecycle of it, you kind of always done that. So it's kind of what I learned in kind of you're responsible for its kind of risk with any kind of almost DNA because you're kind of learned that and then naturally as being a people leader. Her and you've only got the finite team that you can do things even kind of working at now, but at a bank in a bigger organization the more analytic seeds, but I've only got my team so it's just still got to manage their resources and it's really also the experience of how unlucky to have some good people leaders as well. And so how they've managed the team as well and just inheriting that aspect as well as the other aspect is a kind of the structure as touching on busy vertical kind of aspect of the structure being the depths of skill sets as well and the other aspect which is how so kind probably inherited how I manage the team from my experiences of how I was mad. And it is easy a task that's giving could be given to anyone. So from a graduate entry level person to the most senior person in the team. So for example, if it's we need to build a new attrition model The Graduate could do that or the senior personally I could do that. For example, the difference being is the amount of support that someone is and the amount of time that they will take a gradual take longer and need more support where as a senior person can do it more or conversely. Everyone should always get support anything because if you learn better in my head than one but it's the says not just getting stuck in across all kind of aspects its kind of the The anyone can do anything as well and you think and how does that work with a team grows gets bigger? Yeah, I think because you have basically the Matrix of kind of the breadth of things that you expect people to work on both in the technical skills and the product functions or the business streams of the area's you got to look after as well as in the different tasks. Someone can do this, but always seems to be enough to kind of someone hasn't learnt in a different area to kind of get people excited as well as a nurse visit the softer kind of skills in terms of the presentation skills. Direct people leadership kind of accidents as well. So as the team goes in maturity and kind of as if they've been there longer its kind of those the should be hopefully always something that's something new for someone as the team goes physically in terms of number of people this kind of having the right structure as well as for the more layers. I think a lot of organizations going removing the layers. I kind of like having a little bit of hierarchy because it kind of helps with the just managing the privatization of tasks and of the admin side that kind of comes to it and then it's the communication with kind of the next layer down of who's working a lot in the people happy and doing it to move people around and kind of this see getting Communications of the for we don't do enough of it. I know I don't do enough of it, but I'm pretty an open person. So it's kind of really what you see is kind of what you're getting is is having those conversations with the team to hopefully they're an honest back and we can work through the demands of the team as it goes. Yeah makes sense. And how do you stay close to the team? Do you do one-on-ones or is a group meetings? What is your approach one-on-ones with my my direct reports? Skip levels less frequently, but I tend to sit with In as well here, it's fixed desk. So kind of closer to the sitting with them at NAB. It was more flexi desking so they could be days when you're not sitting with the team, but try and always sit with the team just to kind of have those kind of touch points and say hi. Say bye in the evening at least. Yeah, and it is something that is very says naturally introverted kind of quiet person, especially in the days when you've got lots to do and you just want to want to sit at my desk and get their work done. I have to make the conscious effort to go and speak to people because that's so valuable to do and I enjoy doing it as well. It's just when there's High and of this lure on my to-do list or a lot of deadlines to meet just making it a conscious effort to go and speak to people more say how you doing just not were elated as well. This is important. So I think it's something I probably don't do as enough via that the team meetings from all the formal aspects of business awareness what's going on and then what kind of aligning what their work is doing to the vision of the team the strategy and then kind of an informal we have an informal qualities of the week once a week on a Friday just getting together and people to either showcase something. That's kind of just nothing work. Later that just kind of worked on it or it's not their work. They just found it online or it is their work and it's an awareness of what the hell's going on in the business. They one of my observations coming into this team was that we were all kind of working in silos. We kind of get the work get the job done move on. It's kind of let's just build the awareness or what other people are working on and because I think that one of the business Acumen and a learning what's going on, the business is important to expose its my kind of motivation. Anyway, I kind of curious nosy person. So I kind of like to know what people are working on a new Zoom Brothers enjoyed that aspect too, but it It's a bit of fun just to make sure that we get together and have a bit of learning on the things but also knowledge share as well. Definitely that having their continual learning I think is is really something that data scientists really value through really good way to do it to have it as a flexible session that's booked on a weekly basis, but the topic can be so buried you don't have to submit things or you can just be an observer or you can kind of present in and take part and you tend to get the same people kind of that submit and gently kind of try and encourage. People playing in extracting their just a get together to make sure we're speaking to each other and not just about the current problems. And what's going on something. I don't think I probably do enough is celebrate the wind or the successes of what we've done. We kind of everything analytics danger the kind of the quiet quiet little mice in the team you get a lot done and they kind of probably take us where take a lot of shit on from the business just absorb it and do it but it's kind of make the business aware of what we're doing is there's a balancing act to it. But that was one of my biggest learnings as a leader. Is your role as a Salesman and you've got to sell the team sell the so what the teams doing? So the benefits and just sell the awareness as well. It doesn't come naturally to me and I kind of still kind of learn that but it's important to kind of get people's awareness of what we're doing and that's easier than when people are asking for things and you having to say no and people often people do actually is all why you're not doing it's like well, we're actually working on other things and if they can see there's a throughput of lots of other work. It's kind of more forgiving and kind of why we're not working on that urgent thing right now. Yes, Sara Lee most urgent thing go. And how do you go about selling the team and the work to the rest of the organization? So we have company-wide business updates where everyone gets in a room and we is on a monthly basis talk about the different business units and what's going on previously is the bi team. I was with my role as kind of changes function as also insights. Probably there wasn't a bi present representation at the business. Okay, so it's kind of Finance areas all the different business units areas, but not we weren't necessarily a business unit. Yeah. Save Our Place feel like I'm gonna win it. I have a little voice at the table. So it's kind of just muscling my way in and having a say there and trying to make it a bit fun as well. So that people remember your one and it's memorable but it's yeah first was getting a seat at the table and so look I was looking before I job join the team to my rolls are unusual the bi team was lining into Finance area to not having see it on the table that way so are now being on the exec team I get a seat at the table. So the kind of attitude privilege now, it's kind of there's less filters. You've got like I'm here to kind of showcase what? So try and summarize what we're doing obviously it's kind of choosing the one you don't know bombard and then it kind of gets blindness to what we're doing. So it's about making sure that I'm raising the concerns and there's something happening. So when there's a data warehouse outage which happened the other week that we're actually talking about it at the exec team. So we're making sure the where that's going on with them filters to the strategy conversation earlier. So they're going well. I'm not saying we do but if it was to say move to the cloud, there's kind of this kind of are there's a reasons there you kind of as awareness rather than these things just happen and people don't know about it because it doesn't necessarily get race. To the right level. So it's getting you the foot of the you'll see that the table and how do you prioritize the work out of everything that could be done plus everything that gets asked to be done. How do you pick what should be done? Yep as a very good question and I think I learn every time I do a prioritization. It's a combination of business needs. There's always a people at shout the loudest want their work and it's equally they want to make those people and helping it, but I don't want to necessarily give them what they want all the time because it's not The water tells bad behavior and great. So they want so pretty clear going to be aware of those people as well because they can be the ones that spread the negative word about you and kind of then I did a great job. They're not doing this I want this and so it's a bit of a balancing thing out there. But the only my privatizations our first kind of separating two quick wins versus longer term work. So something that can just be done you kind of should just do it but you've got to balance that with if you have a lot of things I can just be done then you never do any the bigger pieces. So that's kind of a full being asked on the team to just be aware of that. That and it's kind of a bit of an expectation that if something is just a quick thing then do it, but for them to kind of - there were close to make sure they're not doing a lot of great friends then the business opportunity. So kind of what's the business priorities whether that's driving Revenue producing attrition pain Point successful. What's the business priority looking at the effort to build and kind of what I think is going to make the kind of biggest Improvement for us as a business in terms of the kind of the data analytic strategy supposed to and I say that the em like saying the prioritize Me privatizing the self-service is important now and we didn't do that earlier because it was important for me to kind of I was learning what the business kind of needs and then I can help build the self-serve but now's the time to prioritize that over the ad hoc. There's also an element of what does the team members want to learn? So if I've had a request if someone wants to learn segmentation and it's like well, I'm not prioritize that task because if they can do that, but it is it's a matrix of business priorities business needs demands and development. Matiz, quick wins long-term strategies and then you always get the senior leader that wants something and what excites you about your job or this field what gives you so passionate engaged? Yeah, I think a few things that I always kind of enjoyed the problem-solving aspects and that's what you're going to do in the data science space, especially the problems where people think that can't be solved its kind of the competitive side of me likes a bit of a challenge, but it's at the seeing the results as well and kind of seeing People make the changes think the fraud was easy in the early days because you could see that you could actually quantify it as well kind of by the end of the day or the week. You could put the I've saved x amount of dollars for the business because they're putting those also seeing something in production in action kind of happening is kind of a little bit of a kind of a both kind of I did that. It's probably harder now is it's more tenuous to kind of what the impact to to the real world and but the other the problem-solving aspect is leaning then I like to see people learn and grow as well and develop the team one of these the things that when I was looking for a job after leaving the bank taking a break and coming back. The other thing I was looking at was was I kind of realized that working in the Contracting when I was going back to being a dual as I'd like to be in a senior analyst kind of doing the work was kind of fun kind of like I still got it, but I kind of miss the strategy aspects and kind of the shaping the business so not necessarily just the analytics area and the team to see what we can do there. But how can we grow the business and make the business further by having? I kind of think that team meetings kind of discussing what's the direction of the business and I like those kind of the strategy session. Why do you think that is kind of how I feel about arrogant say no but kind of feeling like I do have an opinion and their voices should be heard and I'm a big believer that they did a science teams and they download it seems we're the smartest kind of people and we're not just asking to be in a data analytics data science team. We can spread across the areas of the business and the businesses will be much better for it. If we were all we see very biased it's out of a little bit of an expert. Bossier to that and also a little bit of proof and of that weekend as well by challenging the kind of the questions and asking the questions of this kind of skill sets of asking why the Cure is going to Nature. Is it the right problem to be solved all those things that you work on a little data analytics kind of Consulting kind of assignment almost applies to the bigger the business. Yes, and I think surprisingly so from when I worked in business going from the questions and of what did I learn from? You need a business kind of realizing that a lot of those questions don't necessarily always happen. A lot of businesses can just visit Units just run along and you kind of need those check-in points, but if his nose while I showed you, but I kind of enjoy those kind of the Year being part of the bigger piece and getting the data analytics recognized to be part of those conversations as well as we make such a huge difference. That's really good. Something is all the IDF. We're a different breed for one of a better word where they kind of think about the detail kind of aspects as well. But then you can apply it to their business knowledge or whether they're kind of the fraud background of kind of realizing kind of the the cynical side. Of the things can go wrong. And what should you do if things go wrong? So it's not just about if you kind of if there's a project to build a new product or something. It's often kind of thinking. What should we do boys like well have you thought about doing this because that could go wrong or what about exception kind of reporting there or if what if we're asking for a third party to Providers data. What if they don't provide us data a lot of the time I think these things are sought about in the best case scenario. And so it's kind of those questions as well in terms of the what-if scenarios as well. That's a really good one because that's a mistake that I make to offer just being a Lee positive. Yes. Thank you. It's going to be greater than equal to half a glass half full. It's good to have this discussion. So that's really great. So I'd like to change tack a little bit and ask you I guess more general questions to get advice for the listeners. What do you think makes a great data scientist? So I think you've got to have the curiosity. Why is this happening? I'm kind of to do they take things on face value kind of asked why and just make sure that they're kind of the checking the Curious nature. I think that the natural ability to do programming or coding is part of that and by natural abilities, I think there's a tendency of people wanting to get into data science to learn it. And so kind of learn coding at the process, but it's not a process. It's not a recipe a to be yes, this recipe aspects to it, but you've got a naturally understand why all the logic behind things and why things are happening so that if things do go wrong you can fix it or you kind of know why and I kind of relate it to my musical background. I'm not musical whatsoever. Absolutely. Edit and I just never could get it and when I was at school, we had music lessons and you had to write a song on my keyboard and I would learn it by a just memorize what I had to do. I couldn't feel it within me. And so I had to memorize it and it just wasn't for me it was forced and then and that's kind of the coding aspect. It's kind of is he like with people just kind of music and they can do it. I don't know who they can't do it, but it's kind of the applies to the coding. If you can do it you can have it comes naturally you kind of got the Curiosity so don't necessarily force it if you're forcing. It's not necessarily for you, but it's been Able to understand when you're forcing it versus when it's just part of the learning hurdles of learning it could you can learn it if it's in your kind of natural ability to learn it. It's Don't Force It because you never you're not going to be a great day to sign business leader if you're forcing it and it's not a bad thing as either there's other things you probably good at but I think for the time being anyway coding is going to be a big part of the data science job. So natural ability coding. I kind of probably always lean a bit towards the softer skills after that and more The Continuous learning kind of attitude that you can always learn from using them. New single read other people's work and always though their willingness to always want to learn attitude as well. We gotta do them Behavior. So people are a bit energized by going to work want to do a good thing open mindset to kind of like, how can we do things kind of can-do attitude kind of things. It's yes, we can do this now can't do that Locker move on. It's like right. So, how can we do it? Yeah, because the right attitude the right mind said it literally requires zero skills like zero training and it makes such a huge. Huge difference if you added on top of technical capabilities soft skills and right attitude the amount of times. I've kind of heard if people have been to something whether it's kind of a conference that maybe 10 years to their job or a business wide update kind of where she's kind of talking about something far removed from what they do in the day job and go how was that you are that was boring didn't learn anything like what you could always learn from it. Yes. I might some parts my reborn but you may take a snippet. So it kind of don't have the clothes mindset. I know it's what can you learn are saying I get overly excited by all this. But it's not if you go into it that I'm not gonna learn anything. It's going to be boring then don't bother going and I love that because I'm the same absolutely terrible. What do you think makes a great data science leader first, the bias kind of side of me thinks everything that you should be for a data scientist because it's kind of buried all questions of technical leader versus equal leader. I remember having a conversation for about seven years ago. Now with our previous people either where they were saying all but so you don't have to be a technical person to be a people either as I know you have To be able to Technical and yes, I do agree in a lot of ways but I think to be a good data science leader is you've got to have a good technical background to and that's why you can you can walk the walk as well as talk the talk you can call bullshit kind of things. If someone says this God is going to take me five weeks to do it. Yeah. I really I could do that in like time so we should also put that the respect Factor as well as the if they kind of respect you and I think it motivates the team a little bit more but also I can get on tools and help people out as well if there's a big demand or if it's off. All the people of sick or if someone's just wants advice. I don't have to call on someone. Yes, there's times when I don't know everything so I do have to say oh it's only by nose out. We can go with him or their research it but I kind of its like the triage I can do the first part of that and help them out. So going to be everything is in the data scientist and then probably the from my experience in the lessons that I'm still learning is that salesman kind of aspect is that you've got to put the team on show and advocate for what they're doing and what a great job they're doing and then the the networking side as well kind of speaking. People building up the networks to help build the contacts for the team as well. So when I can't do things I can guide, you know other people to do things plus it then helps grow the ideas of what to do for the team as well, but we'll get there the biggest I don't know probably half of my learning experiences that the salesman aspect to our leader and telling them what the team is doing not in a way that compromises your values as a what I call some kind of salesman correct and being a little dishonest but it's kind of how does to Advocate what the teams doing super important for the team to get the recognition that it is a Keep that motivation high as well. Yeah, because how excited when I when a team member kind of sees their work in production or getting recognition for something you can see the little buzz in the excitement and it's so important to kind of do that because yeah again, I think the kind of quiet little mice they do a really good job often really helpful for to helpful and I think but need there neither time on the stage. What do you see as the current challenges or the main Challenger challenges in the industry right now for my people side? I think there's a lot of Frozen. Austin people in that the data science base. I mean having Melbourne have the biggest one of the biggest data science medications like 5,000 in that shows us a demand, but is it the demand for the right reasons? So how can we make sure that we're not overselling the job but we also kind of educating and training and getting the right people in the jobs as well. I think there's a stage kind of went when I was kind of getting into things, you know one really knew what data analytics was data science wasn't really a word now. It's a big buzz. It's getting a lot of the highlights. So there's a lot of noise to filter through when you're kind of applying for jobs, but less I think it's really good as well because it means that there's people interested in them as well. But how can we train educate get the pipeline of talent really good and upskill them for me? It's kind of want to watch his the education kind of aspect. There's new data science degrees coming on board. As a lot of online courses is a lot of if you haven't applied the theory to the business world. It's a lot different so kind of people so she's people's expectations coming out. This is easy. You just want this line of code the models that is gonna be great. Does it on his own so Then a bit of re expectation setting you're going to do in the business. I think in the product space when I was working in that space. There's a lot of talking terms of Millennials. What do we do to keep the Millennials happy and then gazing in product space and kind of products and kind of apply that to the data science base and it's kind of you think we talked about Millennials kind of wanting instant gratification or the experiences in England and like we talked earlier. There's a whole lot actually going to have to find some data manipulate the data and do that kind of in my mind is questioning. Do we have to like, how can we adapt to the millennial generation to I believe as well that probably contradictory in some ways to what my previous comment about the coding but I don't think you should always have to do the nitty-gritty coding. There's some coding like the self-serve coding kind of told in some ways. That's the kind of taken away a lot of the headache and a lot of the pain points of riding that so how can we adapt the Technologies to that but then not lose the technical and the the danger that a little bit of knowledge can go wrong but kind of use it for the good to speed up the work that we need to do to get the output this can we or should we I don't know it. Kind of if we take it too far. Do you lose the ability of knowing the data making sure we got the right data making sure it's using the right way or can you remove that pain point but still have all the you want exactly introducing one and what about the future challenges for the industry? What are some things that you see coming up that will have to be dealing with I think like a lot of space is a lot of the future challenges are going to be occurring telling you is it's like in the banking space we talked about when's cash going to go and cash is still here. Yeah, finally found I think Gary. Do the checks but Cassius does I think a lot of the pain points challenges will remain the same. So the fact that says to fail it's okay and it's not necessarily Failure Its learning and making mistakes and developing and educating businesses mindsets that that's okay the kind of the current kind of wasting increasing at the moment and of the use of data as data gets more widely accepted within in business and kind of part of the day-to-day running of it and using it more wildly. They making sure he's getting used correctly all the regulation environments that are going to happening in the focus on what we're doing. Ring and then all day autonomous cars and the ethics kind of aspect kind of things as it has more things like that happen. It's the in some ways. We've been privileged in the past of using data and getting away with it and they'll be more and more focus on how we're doing it. So they telling you of and I think that's good in a lot of ways, but how can we do it to make sure there's not too much red tape as well. Sometimes it's when is it right to do it and no doubt. We the needs to be kind of rules in place and make sure we understand how to use it what we're using it away. They're not going too fast. So we can't use anything and I think the as I see now. Our kind of a lot more roles for data governance going on the job boards. And I think that that turned all kind of continued is as businesses want to get their ducks in a row and then I think the challenges for business will be is making sure that's not just a tick the Box function and it's it's actually doing what it's meant to be doing. Yes. And what do you see as that function? What do you think that function should be doing the data governance piece? So ultimately is going to making sure we're using data for the right reasons, but there's many things making sure we're using data for the right reasons and I was a business sense making sure we don't get Trouble and keeping it in check to another we try to do things to get us into trouble that to give that conscious kind of thought to make sure are we using data in the right way, but I also think like a same everyone should do everything part of the job at their governance is part of everyone's well, not just that they don't analytics teams. Everyone's using data within the business. So, how are we using it so that there's many aspects in terms of the quality understanding the quality and how we're using it the governance of kind of the controls who has access to what and how we're using it. It's a little bit Austin and when they the legal team that the moment and kind of thing when that can happen is more in the tick the box kind of exercise and I think that's always going to be needed to because it kind of make sure you've got the framework and you've got the right framework in there, but then it's applying it from a legal document to the day job as well. And so what you often find is when you've got the legal document as you doing a lot of it anyway, but it probably exposes some kind of gaps and I are do we need to be a little bit tighter in those controls as well. So I see the governance side as a way to make sure that we're thinking about data and used in there doing the white way protecting our Some as protecting our shoulders but then making it making sure we don't use their data in the my ways I've trusted is with some data. We can't just use it as we want their think it's a lot of things in one there to go minutes. It's is also changing so quickly because it is as you said like it is how area the moment that a lot of companies are thinking about and what it looks like for them. Yeah. I'm good still constantly learning on that one and we can walk. What should we be doing in that kind of space and he has a kind of the team grows in what we do and as we've got contacted different. Businesses and things just it's about it really do the right thing. We're going to make sure people know what the right thing is. Well as that's very good. This has been fantastic amazing only have one last question for you. And that is what is a piece of advice that you would like to leave the listeners with that. It can be something for them to consider as they go through their careers as data scientist something to keep in mind something to focus on or maybe a mistake to avoid what would be something that you'd like to leave people with? Already touched on a few things like the open mindset mean probably a big one. I have a few kind of get comfortable being uncomfortable kind of is one of the other things get out of your comfort zone and kind of keep pushing yourself. It's in the kind of the business talk they talk about the the comfort zone out of your comfort zone and the danger zone. So it's making sure you're not out of the danger zone, but you're not in the danger zone rather, but you're not in the comfort zone as well. So constantly kind of pushing yourself while you'll learn and grow more Really Gonna probably going a few times with yeah, I think probably Tokyo The open mindset one a little bit more as well as a personal example. I was looking for a my manager and put me on I didn't get gave me the opportunity to work two days a week and of the semicircle meant within the strategy team and kind of just something I'm going to pull the glass and kind of did it but it's not realizing why necessarily at the time but being open-minded to kind of do it again. It's not necessarily part of my job. But God I'll do that and the strategy seems often have to do a lot of research understand the problem and then synthesize it into a kind of a condensed concise and easy to understand presentation for see Wave is to have Yuan and we were working on a list of future of payments and going to look like and it was in wasn't that the senior leader because you on this one and I helped me to understand how they go through that research process to then write the presentations in an easy to understand way and I've still got will be learning to do that. But kind of just the tips on kind of a how to write an executive summary to kind of highlight the key things versus the titles of slides being more about what the content is and the content is just to support the evidence point of the size rather than being a boring. Sales by day or something. It's kind of more Punchy as I really learn a lot from that experience as it is the keeping an open mind that you can always learn from other aspects. Probably the other bit of ice will be about yourself probably my personal and the story and that one would be private school or three or four years ago. Now I was actually having a conversation with my people either at the time and having the development conversations of what do you want to do next don't like anyone your job. It wasn't good enough at his job is kind of always, you know, I've been in the role however many years but kind of you know, he was also Embedded a job knew a lot of things and there's no idea. I was ready for that as the week's kind of progressed and became apparent that he was going to go on as a common elsewhere and he's well became available and then I can't just start to think that I see if someone else gets that and probably getting the competitive side to me again. I'll give already jealous probably think I can do that as a kind of back myself and say yeah, I didn't want your job and then like a couple weeks later. I was in that job and so in that first a comment and then in there for two years in the end before I left, but had I not done that and kind of made that conscious decision to back myself. I wouldn't be here where I am. Today because it was a big step up I think going from the manager to that the head of role. It's um, it's kind of the first proper step. We have noticed the change in kind of promotions where it was a bigger difference rather than an actual kind of progression. So a massive learning curve probably still think I'm way out of my depth kind of the the impostor syndrome head of aspects, but I die not been forced to kind of back my cell phone and get in that position. Then I want to learn what I have and there today so yeah always about yourself. That is a fantastic note to end on that was amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you to you hiding my pleasure. This is wonderful, like really really amazing. So thank you so much for sharing all that. Thank you boost your data science career with skills that count James Cook universities 100% online master of data science is one of Australia's fastest study while you work and focus on just one subject at a time. Visit online dot j CU dot edu. A you for more information. As a data scientist, we're always looking for ways to gather more data and to understand our customers better Fire books do just that with fire box. You can easily Create a quiz for your app website or blog these quizzes are used to generate leads educate or engage your customers check them out today. That's Firebox with a why so f yr e Bo x.com that brings this episode to conclusion. Thank you so much for listening. Please find us on data futurology.com or on Facebook Twitter LinkedIn or Instagram as that of utility. Also go to data futurology.com forward sighs podcast to find the show notes for this and any other episodes. If you liked this episode, it would mean a lot to us. If you could leave us a review wherever you listen to our podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode and that it was helpful and valuable for you. Thanks again and you next time.
Sally is the General Manager of Insights at the Australian Motoring Services. She previously spent 10 years working in banking and today she shares her story. We speak about: * Fraud analytics in big banks * End to end analytics * Importance of fast feedback loops * Shocks of early working life * Balancing speed & accuracy * 80/20 vs 95/5 * Exposures in strategy & politics * Helping the business ask the right questions * Leading with the work * Career breaks: how to * Importance of working on yourself * Advantages of medium sized companies * Creating a data strategy * Balancing tactical solutions, strategic initiatives and team development * Self service analytics * Educating business stakeholders & getting their feedback * Ability to ask anything from everyone * Data science is like medicine * Leveraging multiple dimensions for career development * Knowledge sharing sessions * Getting analytics a seat at the table  Show notes: www.datafuturology.com/podcast/34  Sally is based in Melbourne, Australia  And as always, we appreciate your Reviews, Follows, Likes, Shares and Ratings. It really helps new data scientists find us. Thank you so much, and enjoy the show! 