It's time for a new era of communication the swine industry one that you can get the latest updates while commuting or driving to Farms here. You have the brightest mind of the global swine industry in your pocket in a stall barn. Typically. We don't know where those gilts versus older cells are going to be located. So we feed a common diet which commonly over over formulates those nutrients for the older South. Who are done growing and just needing maintenance and the development of the growing fetus? Welcome to sign it podcast. My name is Marshall and Salvage your host for today's episode. Swine it podcast is only possible with the support of forward-looking and Innovative companies, like gestahl always one step ahead and Swine feeding every Pig a simple yet powerful Pig health and production management tool Newt request experts serving producers delivering breakthrough Solutions and simple essential trace minerals exceptional performance. These episodes sponsor highlight is about just all celebrating its 25th anniversary. Just all manufacturers the original Wireless Standalone swine fitting system designed by pork producers for pork producers. They are simple reliable and provide peace of mind 24/7 365 days a year just always not just manufactured by an equipment company, but Family pork production business with a slat level understanding just all always one step ahead and slide fitting. Hello everyone today we have dr. Hyatt Phobos and he's going to talk about designing the modern sow firm from a nutritionist perspective. How are you today? Hyah, I'm good. Thank you for having me Marcio. I appreciate you being here with us and just as always tell us about yourself. Yeah, well, I appreciate the opportunity to share some thoughts with you guys today and quick background. I'm originally native of Northwest, Ohio and I migrated to the Midwest when I went to Kansas State University and pleaded my masters and PhD in swine nutrition there, which is where Marcio and I first met up my focus throughout my graduate career as well as now in my job with just all focused on sows feeding modern South and It really all started for me with my first internship was with Dan bread now DNA up in Nebraska and I think I got put on the night shift production internship as we were looking at the impact of feeding sows three times a day instead of two times a day by hand and feeding at night versus during the day and this was a good job for an intern during the summer of my junior year in college, but it got me I guess acquainted with some of the challenges with feeding. vows and lactation and gestation and I guess got me a little bit hooked on the challenges and opportunities that exist in sow research and in maximizing productivity and sows and that's what led to some of my follow-up work in my graduate degree looking at feeding lactating sows and I spent a year in Australia on a Fulbright scholarship and came back from that to start my PhD looking at stimulating estrus and lactating sows which involves Fairly creative ways of feeding and managing sows in the farrowing crate. So that background really set the foundation for me as I transitioned into my role with just all where I started in 2015 as their nutritionists, but their Global team as well as the US business manager and since that time I've been heavily involved in working with just all customers on and gestation housing and design as well as feeding their lactating sows Electronics out feeders and eat more recently working. On Research Barn design and Judy use and so working in this technology space as well as working in the building design space as given me kind of a unique perspective, which is I think a good subject for the discussion today as I've been a nutritionist that's gotten involved in building design and strategies relating to infrastructure as I found in a lot of the retrofit facilities. He's and building facilities. A lot of the no nutritional opportunities that we may know physiologically makes sense. I've been hard to execute due to limitations in barn design. And so I wanted to spend some time our CEO and the audience today going over some of the things that I've come across in my experience living on both the building and design standpoint as well as the traditional nutritionist perspective. This is great. Thanks hired for the for that introduction there. And and yeah, I mean not many nutritionists are involved in design. And and so that's going to be great. And then also balancing right the performance the economics the science what is ideal from a biological standpoint? What can we Implement? So so I look forward to the discussion. Yeah, one point that I guess it's been interesting to me and I especially see this with a lot of our larger systems in the u.s. Today. We have talented people that are focused on specific areas. Obviously option nutritionists would be one of those but often those same companies have counterparts that work in the building design a capital investment type of the equation and I feel sometimes one of the downsides Of larger systems is that everybody can sometimes get trapped in their silos of knowledge and this can be a limiting factor for us. Sometimes as I will bring some questions to the conversation with those who are building the design for the new South Arm and you can tell that they haven't thought about it from a nutritionist perspective and although we're all busy people and we know that there's only so much time in the Today, I think including the nutritionist in having a set of eyes on new building layouts is important to understand. What can we do from a feed system design approach to execute some of those known opportunities in terms of sound nutrition. And that's that's I guess where I want to dive a little deeper on some of the things that we talked about today Marcio very nice. Sounds good. So let's let's think through the production cycle of the sow and Start off with a GD you and in your thoughts their hat. Yeah. Well, I think the gdu design could be a topic for a completely different podcast as well. And so I'm going to maybe just prep surface allow us to dive a little deeper on the South Side. That's really my bread and butter but I've seen a lot of comments from nutritionists and production people lamenting the fact that we struggle to get gilts fed right in the growing stages. for they enter the South Farm and I think it's it's pretty clear that we have a high turnover rate in our saw heard and it's interesting to me that although we averaged over fifty percent annual replacement rate and our herds, you know, Canada, for example one country to the north is averaging a replacement rate around 45% those so it shows that there's some opportunity to improve some things in terms of Sal longevity and I think a lot of that starts with gdu design Where I guess I really get frustrated is the fact that I don't see a lot of innovation in gdu design and they often get left as an afterthought in the building equation, even with though we know that those females are the Next Generation and there's a lot of value in getting them fed right to have a higher selection rate and maybe a higher retention rate after they enter the herd because one of the most concerning things to me is the number of animals that leave the herd before they reach their second parody. I don't think nutrition is the only part of that equation obviously stocking density and genetics reproductive factors are all really important traits, but it does concern me that many GD use especially smaller to medium-sized on-site G use struggle to get gilts phase fed properly and Oftentimes aren't feeding them additional nutrients that might be needed for a developing female such as supplemental vitamins trace minerals. So I think there's definitely an opportunity and gdu space to rethink our design equation in particular body condition management is a challenge area that many people comment struggling to keep gilts lean enough while growing properly to enter the herd with the right type of reproductive status that being said finding a way to get them. Growing but not too fat as they enter the herd is important because it's well known that you'll see get too fat too early have limit. It affects their lifetime memory development and milking capacity and we all know the consequences of animals that are too fat and gestation on their stillborn rates and lactation feed intake post farrowing so I don't have a Panacea on On on the gdq design, but I it does concern me when we have G to use that are designed and implemented poorer than even finishing guilt or finishing pigs. I think it's important that we get them phase fed properly and if it's deemed appropriate to add supplemental vitamins and trace minerals. I think we need to get that into him at the right time. That being said the body condition side of the equation is challenging because simply increasing fiber in the diet doesn't seem to be a quick fix either. Since the guilt can compensate and just have higher intake. So I think there's still some opportunities out there for people Innovative minds or our new technologies to find ways to keep those gilts growing without necessarily over conditioning the higher-end take animals and pain. Yeah, that makes total sense. Hyah. One thing that I would add as well as just call for Guild development research. It feels like we have more more research than guilt. And then if that's something you you would agree. Yeah, I'd agree with that because I do get asked a lot to help with gdu design whether it's involved in just all equipment or not and I struggle sometimes to find Strong case within the literature to apply specific feeding methods or strategies. So we're often times reverting back to experience and large-scale data that maybe isn't backed up in science as as robustly as I'd like to so with more of a foundation that would allow me at the execution stage to be able to back up recommendations with science more effectively. Very nice. Cool. So that's from transition into just a Ation fitting hired. What are your thoughts there? Yeah. So I've had the opportunity to work with quite a few cell farms in my four years with Jess doll in their transition to pain housing and with that transition depend housing. It creates some opportunities to have some conversations about how we're going to modify the feeding strategies for these sows and and different Farms are at different points as far as how Progressive or or Futuristic they want to be in terms of eating strategies, but I think at the very least we open the door for some opportunities when we convert to group housing to implement some known opportunities that we haven't done historically in a 100% gestation stall barn system. Probably the best example of this would be the opportunity to feed parity specific diets. And while you could get down in the weeds and get more specific Beyond this I think a very attainable goal and one that would accomplish a lot in terms of feeding the South's to their nutritional requirements and and economically having a payback would be splitting your sour heard in half and feeding the younger animals. So let's say gilts and Ones representing approximately 50% of your heard a separate diet from your P2 plus animals who genuine who generally are going to have a lower amino acid as well as lower calcium and phosphorus requirements in a stall barn. Typically. We don't know where those guilts versus older cells are going to be located. So we feed a common diet which commonly over over formulates those nutrients for the older South. Who are done growing and just needing maintenance and the development of their fee of the mammary tissue our development of the growing fetus. So with Pain Group housing, for example, there's a lot of data from a behavior and Welfare standpoint that we can minimize aggression and improve reproductive outcomes by parity segregating animals. So we already should be grouping animals young and old Group housing. So to me, it's just one more extension of what we should already be doing to design a sale barn to have a separate feed system for those pens that are geared towards young animals to feed them a higher lysine iron calcium and phosphorus diet relative to the older sell pens and you know, depending on your costs and your area and what nutrient levels you're willing to hang your hat on for those. I think it's going to vary a little bit about what that economic payback is, but just using some 2018 numbers that I had put together for some models for customers. I was seeing a payback of around two dollars to 250 us per inventoried female by feeding parody segregated diets. And so if you think about the the added cost of a couple more bins and another chain disc unit. You can pay back those extra infrastructure related costs within a couple years regardless of feed costs and especially as we look to this year where we're looking to have a little higher input costs it certainly with worth putting a pencil to some of these opportunities as you think about barn design on the front side. Very good. Yeah. That's that's quite a bit of a fairly quick payback any other thoughts in gestation hat. Yeah. You know what? One of the other byproducts of moving to a pen gestation type of scenario is that we by proxy get the later mid-to-late gestation animals in a separate area the barn from the early gestation animals most us Farms converting to group housing are keeping thousands stalls through Prague Czech. So somewhere around 35 to 42 days is the most common by having those thousands stalls and the vast majority of the animals that are in the Stalls being an early gestation. This does create some opportunities to consider feeding a dedicated early gestation diet. There probably needs to be some more research in this area to validate some of the early work that's been done. But there are some feed additives that have been shown internationally to show some benefits in terms of pregnancy rates as well as ovulation rates and embryo survival. And while those feed additives may or may not have the economic payback. If you had to feed them throughout just station by having captive group of animals in early gestation. It allows you to Focus an added cost of a feed additive into those first trimester pregnancy animals that are installed. So I think there's some opportunity to dive a little deeper on feed additives for early gestation because with most new Farms using some form of group housing we have the ability to dial the to dial down that diet for the sows installs as one that's primarily for those in early gestation. Very good as you walk through Farms had a any general comments own body condition management and those those areas definitely in gestation, whether it stalls or pens. I think this continues to be an area that really goes back to execution and I see some Farms that do a better job than others and some with varying levels of technology that is used more or Effectively, but body condition management remains a challenge, especially when we get into labor issues calibrating your box drops and stalls or in stanchion pens is something that often is done wrong. I remember Wayne cast telling me one time that he thought one of the worst things that was done was putting numbers on the box drops and they thought they should be letters because it's all tied back to bulk density and not not an actual weight inside those boxes. And I think that was a very accurate view because I see a lot of challenges and getting those box drops of just it just because it's a labor labor driven task and we're short on labor and most are self arms today. So we need to make it easy with with different types of electronics. I'll feeders. I definitely give my customers tips on how to minimize the amount of adjustments they have to make you can you can assign sows to a body condition. Curve when they enter the pens, but you can assume that they come back into the right body condition if they get fed fat diet or a skinny diet for a certain number of days one thing that is unseen done wrong is if you if you assign a saw to a thin body condition curve when they enter the pens that's a day 35. If you feed her a thin diet, which might give her five or six pounds instead of the routine for four and a half pounds. Ed's if you feed her that for 70 days she often becomes a fats out and kind of You know, you lose the lose the opportunity that you had by getting those housed fed better. So designing your feed curves with electronics out feeders. The right way is something that can really optimize your feed use and prevent that roller coaster effect of thin sounds becoming fat and fat cells becoming thin but the same thing can happen in more rudimentary systems where we end up overfeeding the group to try to manage the thin sows in the pain and ultimately that ends up just And you bigger sows that have a higher maintenance requirements because we end up just increasing the mature body size of your spouse and that probably goes all the way back to the gdu Marcio where you we overfeed them to keep them growing and we end up making gilts that are a little bigger framed and have a higher body mass than maybe they need to and that has a recurring cost and just their daily maintenance requirements. Well said any other comments before we move to the transitional South High on I just say that on the body condition aside. I have seen more and more people utilizing objective measurements like the South caliper or flanked measurement tapes. Some do back fat. Although I see that being done better on really high performing Farms. Where as we're we're struggling on labor. It's hard to get an accurate back fat and do it routinely so having a simple but objective measurement tool is definitely better than eyeballing it because we have so many different subjective. Visuals for different workers and the farm and different managers. So having some type of objective measurement tools definitely a recommendation of mine to minimize. Unnecessary adjustments or inaccurate adjustments very nice. If I feel that the caliper got a lot of traction in the US as well as in other countries, definitely good. Alright, so feeding the transition cell Hyatts. What are your thoughts? Yeah. This is definitely been an area that I think is gaining a little more attention and traction and I think some of it is rooted in. It's because we really in a lactating sound just saying so we're really not that far removed from a dairy cow and and the dairy nutritionists have been applying transition diets for a long time. I think it was only a matter of time until we started looking at what they're doing and seeing whether we can capture any of those same benefits. That being said, I think there's still a lot of opportunity for more research in this area, and I'm probably not the best one to go into depth on. Different nutrients or strategies from the from the ingredient and formulation side, but I've seen more and more people that are talking about transition diet strategies that include supplemental fiber added micronutrient select such as choline carnitine citric acid or B vitamins and still see some people that are talking about dietary electrolyte balance, but I think from a feeding strategy standpoint that's something I can comment on further. And just like in humans, I believe and it's pretty clear dating back to some data from the 90s from boskamp. That sounds just like pregnant pregnant humans can get gestational diabetes and this can really cause them to have difficulty with glucose tolerance. And I think the subpopulation of sows that we see really struggle around the Perry Park during that period some of those that might get attributed. Did with that crash after they Pharaoh or or MMA related to mastitis metritis and agalactiae might be related to some of the differences in glucose tolerance among sows that those who get gestational diabetes and that don't and really interesting study that was done by Peter teal at Aarhus University in 2017. They looked at the frequency of meals that were fed prior to Fair owing and the impact on their Darling performance and farrowing performance and they found that sows that a de Mille closer to the time of the onset of fair owing. Were more likely to complete Fair owing more quickly and reduce the number of stillborns they had so that was something that I thought was a an interesting study and it showed that maybe there is some upside to feeding these sows at 6:00 hour intervals or eight-hour intervals and the recommendation that the author's had from that study was feed sounds at least three times a day pre Pharaoh. But tying that together with feet allow its pre Pharaoh, which is one of the That I see a huge amount of variation among my customers in the US and globally there appears to be some very long held beliefs very similar to what we had with bump feeding not very many years ago Marcio and you and I have had conversations in the past about bump feeding and I think the research has has helped move that conversation forward but pre furrowing feet allowance seems to be an area that there is people that I work with that. At want to feed as little as three or four pounds pre pharaoh to those who want to feed full feeding pre pharaoh. And I would say that although there is some decent data out there the data that is out. There hasn't moved the decision of those who view it differently and I think it's an interesting area that needs a little bit more emphasis placed on it from the nutritional Community because it's something that we can manage and manipulate but If we're over feeding them unnecessarily pre Pharaoh. There's a cost to doing that and it made exasperate exacerbate issues with over conditions house, but simultaneously for underfeeding those sounds pre pharaoh and were causing problems related to constipation or gestational diabetes. I think we need to dive a little deeper on preferably feet allowance and make sure we we have a uniform set of recommendations across the nutritional community. Interesting. Yes, I'd say that from the data. I've seen that, you know feeding for a couple days. It's probably fine. But then if for some people in some countries that transfer the cells more than five days prior to fairing that's you know, that's where we can start having problems. I agree and I definitely have that farrowing customers who maybe need to implement that differently than those who fear a And we'll load the rooms pretty close to the time of farrowing that being said, you know, I have I have one customer I can think of that that he's convinced that on the day of fair owing. The South should receive zero feet and should be focused on on the farrowing process and and he has outstanding performance. So I will definitely say there's there's some devils in the details there that I don't know that there's a one-size-fits-all approach, but I can say that there's definitely some Some deep rooted beliefs that different producers and production systems have that there's not a there's not a consensus among the production systems. I've worked with in the US or globally and maybe that that indicates that we need a dive a little deeper in the research in that area. That makes sense good. So let's jump into a lactation higher ed. What are your thoughts there? Yeah. Well the one that jumps out to me on lactation that I think is a missed opportunity. Need as far as I see outside of the US more and more production systems that are implementing parity segregated feeding and lactation and just like the conversation we had in gestation. There's some known opportunities and getting those P ones and and guilts fed higher nutrient density diet because we know their intake limited and lactation, but yet still have some of the same productivity capabilities as an older sow and so I've seen people add a separate feed line that feeds a portion of each farrowing room a different diet so they can get a specific diet to guilt crates that seems to be a relatively simplistic way of getting it fed all the way up to some research that's going on right now with customers using some of our feeders to blend a high and low amino acid diet at different stages of lactation to best match the nutrient requirements of the South. Per day of lactation. I think it's still early days on that but we definitely know that the nutrient requirements of the South vary wildly from early gestation to Mid gestation to the last week of sorry early lactation to second week of lactation and third week of lactation and yet we routinely feed a common lactation diet throughout throughout a South farrowing period so it's interesting to me to start getting some um data back and look at the benefits of keeping Sal's from going into a catabolic State and as much as anything just feed savings because when we form a basal diet across the entire herd were generally formulating that to closer to the guilt or P ones requirements at Peak lactation. And what ends up happening is we over formulate the diet for a lot of the days of a sow's lactation period so there's some major diet savings that we could Sure, some of the early data that we have indicates that there's times in a multiparous sows lactation that because she's eating so much feed. She really may only need a point seven five two point eight lysine diet and and that's obviously quite a bit lower than what we routinely feed as a basal diet. One of the other areas that to me is a an opportunity for us. So herds is outside of the US. I see more people successfully Implement wet/dry feeding and lactation and we've embraced wet/dry feeding in grow finish in the US and the benefits in terms of feed intake a well-known there the data's pretty conclusive on the lactation side to that. You can see a bump and around 7 to 10% and Intake with lactating styles that are fed wet dry. But the hesitation that always is shared in in the US as how to manage the hygiene of the feed bowl with what dry feeding and lactation and I think that's a legitimate concern but not an insurmountable one. If you design your feed system the right way or capitalize on some automated feeders that can minimize food waste but the benefits to wet dry and lactation are definitely there if you can successfully implement it and we're always struggling It more intake into these thousand seven to ten percent bump and feed intake. It's definitely something that we don't want to ignore if the opportunity's there right any other General come in and design or feeding Hyatt before we jump into our three questions. Yeah. Just the last thing I would say in lactation is that it just like the fact that we move the needle forward on bump feeding in gestation. I still see a lot of variation within Independence and larger. All systems relating to the amount of feed post pharaoh, and I think it's pretty clear in the literature and and from the research that's been done that we should be given these sows, you know close to if not full feet allowance in early just early lactation and that being said it's not always being done on Farm today and that shows that maybe that isn't trickling down from the production manager or nutritionist level to the actual execution steps in the barn. And so I think there's still an opportunity for us to have a louder voice there and make sure that we're getting these cells on full feed immediately post fairly. Successful fitting Fresh Feed and ready to roll could do not request. The liver is targeted breakthrough solutions to animal producers via nutritional and no nutritional products services and Technologies and new to request. We believe in Ingenuity inspired by servitude and that our success comes from helping producers realize improved profitability through Demised technologists and efficient operation. It is time to our famous. Alright Hyatt. So the three questions we ask every guest every episode. What is your favorite swine related book? Yeah. So I appreciate you asking and probably the one that's been the most useful for me may not come as a surprise to many but the book by Chantal Farmer on the gestating and lactating sow is a reference material that I like and use regularly. That's that's probably my favorite one. Especially with the amount of soil work that I do. It's a great reference in resource. Good book. And what is your favorite book unrelated to pigs? Yeah. This one was a little tougher for me. I'm an Avid Reader. I do listen to probably as many audio books as anything because of the amount of time I spend on the road, but probably the one that I guess would be the most interesting to anyone is a book called Born to Run by Christopher McDougall and definitely a motivational book, but one that's backed up by By some pretty interesting historical stories. And so it's a it's a great read but also a dynamic one. That's not not a lecture-based book interesting. I think I think that one is in my list. I haven't haven't gotten that one. Very nice. Alright, the last one is what separates successful swine professionals from those that are not. Yeah. I think this is a tough question, but you know for my experience as I Entered the workforce I think. One of the things that separates those of us that are having success is just real slat level knowledge of the production system being able to understand production flow and numbers as well as tying that together with with nutrition. That's what's maybe help me be successful and just combining that with a good work ethic and that's something that that I tell people that to get a PhD you may or may not be really smart, but Definitely shows that you've been willing to put the work in and I think in this day and age we sometimes struggle to find workers that are willing to put in the type of work ethic needed to be successful. And that's something that I've been blessed with and it's been an opportunity for me to leverage that to be successful. So work ethics definitely something that I'm trying to infuse in my daughter as she grows up very nice. There's this this is good to put her to work on the counter yet. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we went to we went to the lake this weekend and she found a couple buckets and fill them up with water and she was carrying around two buckets the whole time. So I guess we get away from the farm and she still wants to carry buckets. So I'd say that's a good sign for her work ethic. Let's go. Also High well appreciate your time and share your knowledge and experience with us today. I appreciate it to I get the opportunity to be in a weird spot where I'm involved in building design, but still wearing a nutritionist hat. At and sometimes that leads to some interesting conversations.
Today’s episode will cover Designing the modern sow farm from a nutritionist's perspective. “In a stall barn, typically, we don't know where those gilts versus older sows are going to be located, so we feed a common diet which commonly over formulates those nutrients for the older sows who are done growing, and just needing maintenance and the development of the growing fetus.” – Dr. Hyatt Frobose. Our guest is Dr. Hyatt Frobose, one of the bright minds of the Global Swine Industry. Dr. Frobose is Swine Nutritionist and USA Business Director with JYGA Technologies. He completed his Ph.D. in swine management and nutrition at Kansas State University, received his B.S and M.S. degrees from KSU and was a 2010 US Fulbright Scholar to Australia. Hyatt’s doctoral research evaluated stimulating estrus in sows during late lactation as a means to improve sow welfare and the use of novel feeding technologies to optimize sow performance. What you will learn:     An introduction about himself and his career;  GDU feeding and design;   Gilt development for research (nutrition);   Gestation feeding;   Feeding the transition sow;   Lactation feeding;   What separate successful swine professionals from those that are not. Hyatt’s favorite swine-related book: The gestation and lactating sow (Chantel Farmer) Hyatt’s favorite book unrelated to swine: Born to Run (Christopher McDougall)  Edited by Lauro Faccin 