Welcome to the Glenn McIntosh show. I'm Glenn Macintosh author YouTuber developer transformational online programs. You can do all over the world and psychologists who is super passionate about eating physical activity Weight and Body Image, please join me for inspiring conversations with world leaders as they share innovative ideas based on the latest scientific evidence.And they're rich personal experiences. We dive deep exploring all of the subtleties. So you understand exactly how to make peace with food find joy and moving your body Embrace a positive body image and generally just kill it at life. You'll also hear some podcast of all parts of my Q&A video series Thursday therapy and a bunch of other cool stuff. I know you'll love whether you're tuning in for yourself.Your health professional looking to better support those you serve welcome to the Glenn McIntosh show. This episode is brought to you by my new book the insanity seven steps to transform your mindset and say goodbye to dieting forever in today's podcast, which was recorded some time ago. I mentioned that I'm writing the book. Well, I've just finished it and I'm sure it is the best thing that I've ever created. In thin sanity, I work with you like I would one of my clients and share all of the secrets and strategies that help them to break free of that endless craziness of yo-yo dieting and succeed in a way that is right for them. To give you a feel for what's in the book the seven steps are to break up with the scales make up with your body sidestep sabotage and set yourself up for success make peace with food fall in love with movement. It is possible. Learn how to nurture your inner self. And then tie it all together by layering up your Healthy Habits on top of one another. The insanity is officially released December 31st. But if this sounds like the kind of book you need you can get your hands on it as early as humanly possible by visiting www.whitehouse.gov. Meant psychology.com dot a you forward slash thin sanity and clicking through the links to preorder it in whatever format you like to read books these days or just follow the links in the description. Into this podcast. We also have a really cool special offer for anyone pre-ordering thin sanity after you purchase your pre-order send through your receipt to info at Weight Management psychology.com you and you'll be invited into an exclusive free webinar where we talk through any questions you may have about the book or how to apply the game-changing principles within it and you'll also so go into the draw to win a one-on-one Skype session with me where I can help you overcome any problems, you might be experiencing and apply anything you read in the book in a way that's right for you Gina who is our guest on today's podcast as well as all of the experts we've had on the Glenn McIntosh show actually feature in the book their wisdom as well as the knowledge from other world-leading experts that I've had as mentors for. It's now the scientific findings from countless academic articles and research studies and most importantly my practical experience from spending tens of thousands of hours working with people just like you make the book The Perfect how to Resource to guide you out of your own personal thin sanity and into the awesome life. You are meant to lead please check it out. I'm sure you'll be glad you did. did Welcome back to the podcast guys today. I am so thrilled to have dr. Gina Cleo on the show Cleo and I are great mates. And this one really does feel just like a chat between like-minded friends. It is a pretty long one, but Gina's habits research is really taking the World by storm. It's exciting academics. It's exciting health professionals, and it's certainly helping the clients that we're introducing these ideas to and Gina was happy to dive deep into the principles and get into the details of how you apply them to make and break habits that are important to you, which we absolutely love one thing. I love about Gina is her ability to communicate these ideas. She has an ability to make the principle seems simple to talk about them in a really relatable way and we even have a bit of fun along the way it is a really fun and Lively interview. So I hope you enjoyed as much as I did. Welcome to the Glenn Macintosh show where we talk everything around eating physical movement weight body image emotional health psychological health behavioral health social health spiritual health existential health and everything in between guys today. I'm really excited. We have dr. Gina Cleo with us Gina. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. It's and you guys will know I know Cleo quite well, so I'm going to interchangeably. Her Gina, dr. Cleo and Cleo and you're gonna probably get gee Mac Mac Daddy all the things you're at the Clio and macdaddy show. Let me introduce. Dr. Gina Cleo properly because I need you to know who we're talking to. So, dr. Cleo is an accredited practicing dietitian and a research fellow at the center for research in evidence-based practice, which we love at Bond University. City after working clinically in various hospitals and private practice. She completed a PhD in long-term weight loss maintenance, which we all know is the name of the game where she implemented a habit based non diet or exercise intervention to help people achieve a sustained weight loss Gina, which you'll see if you look at her Instagram is a total foodie and she's really passionate about human behavior health and - and she's recognized as the only Australian researcher inhabit based interventions for long-term weight loss maintenance. Her research is pretty groundbreaking. It's reaches over three and a half million people and it is recognized worldwide at over 25 leading medical conferences and over a hundred media Outlets including ABC News. News.com you the Today Show Women's Health Magazine and about a zillion. In radio stations, it is pretty groundbreaking research as we'll talk about and that's pretty amazing. Gina given that the research is only fairly new it is thank you. It's been so just it's been shocking to me really because here I am and my little lab doing my research and then all of a sudden there's just been this influx of Interest which has been really good and a way to be able to get the word out there really good and when we start to get into the research, you'll see why it's so interesting. I First met dr. Cleo at I think it was the eating disorders and obesity conference and I think I was chairing the conference and I ducked into your area because I really wanted to see this I thought oh this looks like an interesting research topic and it was one of those rare moments. Where as someone who's a bit of a research geek? Yeah and that an obesity conference you're kind of used to a lot of I suppose the same thing. Mmm, and you know that the outcomes in what we We do and not fantastic. So it's sometimes it's a bit depressant. But yeah, I remember being a guy jumped into your your presentation and I had really one of those moments where I thought wow. This person's doing something really different. I think Steve has yeah, so no is it? No, it's absolutely true. And that's obviously the reason why your research is becoming so exciting because there's a lot of people that are having that response in the research world, but also, So in the public, so we're going to talk about that in a minute. But let me keep introducing you guys quacks. I'm not done. There's more there's more guys but white so more recently, dr. Clay has developed and is currently implementing a 12-month community-based weight loss program centered on habit change to help individuals achieve long-term weight loss success and therefore gain improved health and well-being and this has been implemented in six countries at the moment it launched last month and it's just gone ballistic. Absolutely. Absolutely. Italy mental, you're also the academic director for an international coaching company or want to talk about that briefly where your role is to assure that their programs meet evidence based practice. That's right. So important because there's so much stuff that people are doing out there. That's not necessarily evidence based in it's so cool to have that that organization see the value in having a research at come and tighten up their program. Yeah. It's been such a great thing to work with them and to have I guess the creative license to be able to go through All their content and really rip things apart and put things in and go back to the research that's been awesome. I bet there's a lot of health professionals and we do get a lot of health professionals tuning into the show that are really jealous because I think as health professionals we look at those programs. Like I could make that better they need to do more this or let's imagine you're doing that is so so cool. Look, dr. Clay is doing a bunch of cool stuff, but I wanted to let everyone know that you are nominated for the 2018 emerging health. Archer award because of your research passion and the promise of this extraordinary potential to make an important contribution to changing the way that we see weight management, but also health behavior in general. Yeah, that's right. So did I miss anything? No, I don't think so. Thank you. All right. Let me tell you guys what we're going to do. Today. We're going to talk about doctor Cleo's main area of research and practice which is inhabits. We're going to talk about what habits Actually Arc. Is it something that we talk about all the time? But but I don't know that we all actually know exactly what we're talking about. We're going to get into your research and what we can gain from it. And then we're going to talk about my favorite thing to talk about on the Glenn Macintosh show, which is the how to say, how do we make habits? How do we break habits and some of the insights from your research and practice with people? Yeah. Awesome. Let's do it. All right, so So why don't you tell us I'm a massive research geek a lot of researchers all over the world are loving your research. What are some of the the key take-home messages from what you've been researching and habits and long-term weight loss maintenance. I think one of the biggest things is realizing that about half of everything we do is actually habitual which means it's basically subconscious and we don't even realize we're doing those things. So we have consciousness. Havis and subconscious behaviors and 45% of our behaviors subconscious which falls into that habits category, but they're also the behaviors we tend to neglect because there's so automatic. We don't really think about them totally. So when you sit in the car and you put on your seatbelt and it's something you've done automatically you don't actually have to consciously remember to do that and one of the biggest take-homes was realizing that also our eating and are drinking Behavior. Is also half of that is Habitual. Yeah, it's almost half of what we're doing without eating and movement. We're doing without even thinking about it. Exactly. So that's why we eat when we eat how much we eat we could eat because of the time of day or who will live or because of the size of the plate or how much food is on a plate and not necessarily because we actually hungry for it and I think taking a really close look at those things makes a really big difference because that's half of the efforts, you know. Half of what we're trying to achieve absolutely there's and it sort of seems to me like when I hear you speak and when I look at your research, it seems to me to be a bit of a no-brainer. Yeah. It's like why have we not been looking at habits more because we hear this all of the time we talk about Behavior change, but obviously Behavior change is not the same as changing your habits. That's right, even though the words are generally used interchangeably. Yeah, so we hear people say Yo, my eating habits, but they really probably mean their behaviors. Yeah, and I think that might be part of the reason why we have overlooked habits and habits are only being researched in the last 10 years, which blows my mind. Yeah considering how much they affect our life and our behavior in general and it is something that we do isn't it when we start a health care core when people start a weight loss plan. They say I'm going to develop new habits, but so often I would look at what they're doing and say you're actually just Doing something for the goal, which is typically weight loss. Yeah rather than actually creating new habits. And I think that's kind of correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the way I would describe your program. It's the goal is actually on creating habits exactly and all the benefits and the outcomes are actually just a side effect of forming the Habit. Yes, so it's doing what we often. Say we're going to do when we start a health kick is actually just focus on the habits and almost relaxed about the results exactly and know that with consistency of those new behaviors. The results will come they might not come as quickly as we want them or they might but it's really not focusing on the results. It's knowing that if you're performing these new healthy habits and you doing so consistently you can't go wrong. Yeah Okay cool. So is there anything dr. Claire? Is there anything that we need to know? Know about habits, we know that half of our Behavior around about half including our eating and our movement is just habitual. So we're doing it without even thinking about it. We know we've got to focus on that. Is there anything else that we're missing or we need to understand about habits before we kind of launched into this? Yeah. So one thing to know is a habit has three ingredients. Okay. There's a queue a routine and a reward right habits are always triggered by something. And so for example when you brush your teeth this morning, you would trigger I brush my teeth. I did I did I did you were triggered by your morning routine. Yeah, a lot of people have breakfast because they're triggered by the time of day. It says always a queue. It's always a queue. Yep. Like I'm drinking this coffee at the moment. Yes. Alright whenever I do these podcast, I don't ask myself. Do I need a coffee? It's just the coffee just magically appears. Exactly. Okay now you'll have a Associated with that so whether that be the social pleasure of it or the comfort of having something warm while you were talking I'm experiencing right now. It's all of that the caffeine boost. Yes, that's it. So habits offer a reward and it might be purely a convenience or an emotional release or it might be anything but habit will always be triggered. They'll always be the action and then they'll be a reward that's interesting. You say dr. Claire that there's always as some sort of a queue because I think sometimes people don't necessarily think there is there is there like I'm just doing this but you're saying this there's always a queue. Yeah, there's always a routine in the new or there's always some payoff for it exactly and and sometimes accuse emotional which is where emotional eating can come into it as well. Got you. Absolutely. So that's interesting. Let's keep that in the back of our minds as we continue through this now. I've got to ask you though to Cleo. I'm A little smile as I say this. I started back salsa dancing a little while back. I like a couple of weeks ago and I was in my class and I heard the teacher say Just like anything you do it for a few weeks and then it's second nature and I had a little after myself and I thought about our interview we hear this all of the time. How long does it take to make or break a habit? And we hear 21 days. I'm printing well, I'm gathering that not the answer. How long does it take to to make new habits? It's obviously not 21 days. If not, Where does that come from? Why do we think that's the case? I am so glad you asked me this because I feel like I'm finally set the record straight. It's just everywhere. It's one of those dishes really popular myths isn't it? So 21 days. It was a research back in the 1960s and it was actually by plastic surgeons who performed amputations wrong these patients and it took about 21 days for these patients to no longer have the sensation. Ation of the Phantom limb, uh-huh. And so they then thought well this will be replicated with all sorts of things. So it took 21 days for these people to have to realize that they no longer have their arm or their leg. So it must take 21 days to change a habit. Yeah, and since the 1960s we have not gone past this although there's been so much more updated research to tell us isn't it? Amazing how something can get stuck in our mind and it doesn't matter what Ongoing research sort of tells us any different and that is a long bow to draw his then from Phantom limb pain going away to developing an exercise routine. Yeah, and I think maybe part of the reason we've kept it is because it is so much Kinder than how long it really does take to change a habit. All right hit us with the reality then that's what we're all about. Truth bombs. How long does it take to create? Inhabit, I can't give you a number. And the reason for that is there are two different I guess two different contributions as to how long it takes. So the first thing is how habitual you are as a person right will affect how long it takes for you to change a habit brought you this I have its strength is strong. You're strong heat stirring so you cut a habitual person massively. Yeah. So let me give you an example. You'll love this got two of our two Heroes like I roller coaster rigid person on the way. Hey, you've been salsa dancing. Actually doing scientific guys, exactly. So my partner BJ we were housemates for a year before we started dating about four years ago love that and I noticed that he would eat chicken schnitzel with a side of lettuce and whole carrot every single day for the entire year. We live together, but not only that he would make to he'd have one for dinner and then he would pack one for lunch the next day there was twice that you know, he ate something else. Also, even if he go out for dinner, he'd still each schnitzel and it was quite interesting because I was doing my PhD at the time and he was a case study and didn't even realize what he was but I was really analyzing his behavior and when I would ask him why he would eat schnitzel it was just easy for him to do so, so he has really strong habit strength. Yes, whereas I don't have two days the same so you have a really low habits. Yeah. I'm really hatefully. Accessible I actually find routine a little bit suffocating. I like flexibility and spontaneity and so interesting Jenna because I like since looking at some of your research and I've been following you for a little while now, I've been asking this question of my clients and I would be interesting to hear what you say because a lot of my clients and I'm thinking about the audience listening and watching now when I ask them about their own habits strength, most people can figure it out like you asked, you know, We were talking about it. And I said I've got a high habits drink. Yeah, your partner has a high have a strength. You have a low your experience can people figure that out. Generally. Yes, although habits or automatic. We don't realize how many habits we do a day. You generally can tell on a spectrum if you are someone who likes spontaneity or someone who likes schedule. Yeah. Yeah, and that was really the are the runs. Yeah. So one of the fact is it depends how long it takes for you to create some new? Healthier habits is going to be your own personal habits strength. That's right. What's the other one? The other one is how complex the behavior is that you're trying to change? Okay. So if I was to say to you Glenn take a sip of water every time that you have breakfast, for example, that might only take you Twenty One days to develop got you. But if I was to say to you I want you to do 50 pushups every morning you'll be able to achieve that but it'll take a lot longer for you to feel that that's it's automatic and would almost feel strange if you didn't do it because it's a lot more of a complex Behavior than having a glass of water. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So it's depending on your of your personal habits strength or flexibility. Yeah, and then also how simple or complex the new behaviors that's right. And so what sort of range do we end up with because I can hear our lawyers go. You got it. It's not 21 days it. What's the ballpark? Okay. I'll give you numbers. So it's actually anywhere between 18. Days to 250 for days. Wow. So you have desert there's a very small chance. It might be less than 21 days but a very large chance it's going to be a lot more. Yes. So there if you wanted an average is about 66 days. Okay, so give yourself 12 weeks to repeatedly do something before giving up on it and saying this isn't working and I think they'll probably be a lot of people who are watching and listening and thinking like, That long but I think that's quite empowering because I'm sure you've experienced this too. You've got a lot of people in your research. I'm sure that have done a lot of things and tried a lot of things before unsuccessfully. Yeah, and I feel like especially in that the health and fitness industry. We undersell things we make things seem so easy and that disempowers people to deal with the reality that sometimes habit change. Takes a long time. And so I'm sort of saying to Devers listening it that this information could be quite empowering and if you're thinking about creating a new habit think about well, how strong are my habits? My habits are really strong in this might take me a little bit longer. Yeah, and if I'm trying to do something that's quite complex then maybe this is going to take me a little while. Yeah, that's it. I think one of the comforting things that I tell people who have this reaction of all this is going to take me so long is Understanding that you only really need motivation to start a behavior. And then the more you repeat it the more natural it will feel in the more automatic that it will become so that level of self-control and motivation is really only needed at the beginning and then just with the consistency. It will get easier. It's not like it's going to be difficult the whole time gets easier and easier and eventually it feels strange if you don't do it if I was to say to you I want you to pick up the phone but not answer with saying hello. That's going to be really strange for you. Yeah, because you've been saying hello your whole life when you pick up the phone and and that's exactly the same with forming habit at the very beginning. It's like, you know, tying your shoe lace. For example, when you first learn to tie your shoelace your parents had to sing you a little song and you had to like really focus on how to do it and now you're doing it and thinking about something else at the same time. It's automatic just do it automatically, so it's not hard. It's really just the consistency of it. And it gets easier every day you perform a habit. It's easier than it was yesterday. So great take-home message every day. Every time you do it every day you do it. It just gets that little bit easier that little bit less motivation or help our that you need to keep it going. That's it. And that's a difference with behavior change because you're not building habits, you constantly need motivation and self control and we know that it's a fleeting resource, right? We don't have much self-control. Yeah. Yeah. I'm have it until it runs out. Yeah, and hence yo-yo dieting. Hence why New Year's resolutions will be forgotten by February because Behavior change isn't sustainable. So let's then get into your research on to talk specifically about the research you've done on habit change for weight loss and weight loss maintenance. Yeah. What did you do with these guys? And how is that different to the Big ol thing that most people would do one of those like a typical 12 week program or as I call them losers much weight as you can and get it all back with interest program yet. How is this program different? So we recruited 75 people from the community that had excess weight and wanted to reduce that and we split them up into three groups one group formed new habits one group broke old habits, and the third group was a weightless control. So in the forming habits group, We basically gave these participants 10 tips to do every day for the duration of the 12 weeks. Just ten simple baby steps. Yeah, the breaking habits group. They had an even stranger and intervention actually where we were sending them text messages through an algorithm that would give them random tasks to do every day. So things like drive a different way to work listen to a new genre of music and the reason that Breaking Habits works like that is because habits work in a web and if you break one habit it sort of breaks the chain. So you've heard the term autopilot. You kind of just going through the day you drive the same way to work you park in the similar spot you go up and make your coffee and eat the same breakfast at the same place. But if you were to drive a different way to work you actually create a place for mindfulness then when you get to work you can say do I feel like a copy or am I just having it because that's what II do right so that that breaking of the routine you're finding creates a mindfulness that then allows people to make more have more flexibility in their choices. Yes and make intuitive decisions. That was interesting because and again correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed like from what I read in your research that the tasks you are getting the able to do in this breaking habit group weren't even necessarily tasks that are even related. Did to health or wait they weren't at all and that's what and it's funny because the participants were when they came and I sort of explained this program to them. They were like am I in the right place? So I mean I came for the weight loss program on like no. This is it you're in the right place because none of the tasks that she would die to exercise for later. They were all about General lifestyle, but it's amazing what happens when people have mindfulness and they break the autopilot because like we Were saying before if 45% of what we eat and drink is Mindless then bringing mindfulness into that changes that yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, and so what were the results you had the group that we had the ten top tips, which were habits that they were trying to do every day. Yep. And then you had the group that you are randomly text messaging to do randomly random thing is to create some mindfulness. They're both doing this for 12 weeks. That's right. So it was a 12-week program and we measured them. I guess we measured a whole lot of things before and after the 12 weeks and then we looked at them again 12 months after the research had finished. Yeah, so during the 12 and I guess that was the difference. It was like great we can all you know lose weight doing anything, but can we sustain that and that was my biggest interest. So although some of the participants lost quite a lot of weight during the 12 weeks. I was like, well Dan see me in a year you No, let's see what really happens. Yeah, because working in clinical practice before the yo-yo dieting and the put weight on lose weight. Put weight on again was just such a common occurrence, which is really it's the reason I started my research in the first place. So what we did then so after the 12 weeks the participants loss on average three and a half kilograms of after 12 weeks 12 weeks in both groups yet. Both groups were exactly the same really interesting because The ten top tips was very much centered around diet and exercise tips without giving diet and exercise direct advice. So what I mean by that is packing a healthy snack before you go out or eating from a smaller plate being more mindful those things were the tips and the had to really tick them off and and do each one of them as many times as they can. So it's three and a half kilos after the 12 weeks, but the fun part was actually looking at them a year after the study. And to see that the participants had not only maintained their weight but loss further wait a year after the programs had finished was mind-blowing. That's the modifying that is because it is a bit like I'm just gonna say what I'm thinking everyone is out this freaking their weight loss approaches and my clients come in the door. Sometimes almost sheepishly and that like they'll want to try this new thing and it might be proven to work in three months or six months and it kind of to me it means nothing. Yeah. It's like it doesn't eat like you said before you can lose weight a million ways and regain it all with interest and and and that's maybe part. The reason why when I saw your research, I had a similar experience to when I saw Peter stapleton's research on the tapping. Yeah, because it was one of those rare moments where you think wow, there's something going on for these people to yet lose a little bit of weight while they're in the treatment, but then it's quite special to then have people continue to lose weight after the treatments finish because normally people just regain they start regaining wait. Yeah, he clothes after you finish it. Has and all the participants had come to me after trying more than 10 diets, you know, they some of them were lifetime members of certain organizations where they were a constantly going back and forth in a CEO and so it was so amazing to see them after year and their continued to lose and I'd say to them what have you done in this time? And most of them didn't even realize that they kept losing weight because the habits have become so much part of Life, they didn't realize I was so doing those tips all those things that we told them to do, but I just become second nature, but that yeah lastik fantastic. So tell me and one thing I'm interested in is that these people no matter how you promoted the research they were coming in wanting a weight loss program. Yes. So you're giving people something that that I'm sure if you said the people People like a year later from now you're going to have lost some weight and then lost some more weight without really doing anything people go that's fantastic. But what did what happened when people started the trial because obviously very different thing and and I'm I'm probably asking also for selfish reasons because this is what we get in our 12 month transformation program, you know, the first Workshop people like one. Yeah, I'm not gonna like lose and we don't advertise it about what those are two things. I will But people will come in wanting that and I suppose expecting that and there's this almost this really this is gonna actually be about long-term. Yeah load change. Did you kind of get that effect with your research participants? Absolutely. I had the same response where people would go. So where's my meal plan? I mean, you're a dietitian are you I'm here for weight loss program. Isn't that what you do? And it's like yeah sure. So how many diets have worked for you before? Yep, let's maybe explore Be curious with something different. And so there was definitely this I guess universal shock Factor when the participants realized that there was no diet or exercise related to this program. Yeah. Well, I think one of the great things is that both the programs had at least one clinical trial prior to mine. And so it was really great to show them. Hey this does work, but of course the weight loss is very modest and and the Those were done in a different population group. So it wasn't completely transferable but I could say to them, you know habits affect your life. Let's just explore what would happen if we were to look at this instead of dieting. Yeah fantastic. So it was a sometimes a bit of a harder sell. Yeah, and maybe that's Jenna. Maybe that's why we don't look at at habits as much because it's it's not as sexy as saying that lose 10 kilos in 12 weeks. Yes. It's like let's slowly and our habits over the course of 12 weeks and then you'll lose a little bit of weight and then then another year will lose a little bit more. Yeah. Yeah, and that's said and I think it was really touching into that element of frustration of clients who had yo-yo dieted their whole life and it is so frustrating putting in so much effort and then putting the weight back on and so many people have been there and so I think the turning point for a lot of the participants was Them. Yes, this isn't sexy. I can't offer you ten kilograms of weight loss in the next two weeks. Yeah, but what I can offer you is that when you lose that weight, although slowly you will keep it off and you'll do so the next year and the next year and it's just that gradual loss each here, you know, imagine in five years time. If you just continue on this pattern is that not the way you know, what you want to achieve at the end of the day. It's kind of what I say to our guy. Guys that you know, the work isn't sexy. Yeah, the short-term results are not sexy but when you look into the long-term, that's kind of sexy. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's different. Yeah. This is the difference between habit and diets. Yeah fantastic fantastic. So let's talk about your research and the group that were that were making new habits. What do we need to know if we're looking to make some new habits? Okay, so we talked about the cube routine and reward of a habit. One of the most important things to do when you want to create a new habit is to find a cue. So instead of just saying I'm going to move my body more and be more active. Yep, which is a behavior change. Yep, and that's and a lot of us say it and if you did you feel great for it. I'm going to exercise more next. Sizemore, yeah, that's my goal. This is my New Year's resolution. I'm going to exercise more but how long are you going to feel motivated enough to exercise more? So associating with a Q is what changes our Behavior? Okay, that's what have it. Right. So what you would say instead of I'm going to exercise more it would be something along the lines of at 7:00 a.m. I'm going to put on my shoes and I'm going to walk for 30 minutes around the block. So then you know, yeah, it's a smart goal. So you're triggered by Then am it could also be, you know a time a different time or a place. So another really great Cube. My favorite cues are time or place. Yes, and guys just to reinforce. What dr. Clay I was saying since I heard you speak since the second time when you came in did the workshop for all of the health professionals with us. Yeah. I remember you talking about q and your favorite being time and place. Yeah, and since then I've used that with my clients, you know, sometimes I'll say you know you this Sort of person that previously I would have said you the sort of person that likes a routine or not so much but I think we all are creatures of habit whether we admit it or not. So some degree. Yeah, and so now what I say is okay, let's think of a time and a place that would be good for you and let's try and lock that in because you have its form in a web love and if we can create this time and place then there are so many things. You do have a Friday that you don't do it on Monday. You do them without thinking and your movement or whatever. The goal is going to be one of them except right? Absolutely. So think of someone who's trigger to have a coffee every morning at work when that person goes on holiday and that trigger is no longer there. Yeah, they don't feel the urge to have a coffee. They they do so if they want to but it's certainly not something they do every day. So when you're forming habits, it's really important to find a cue. And the other important thing to know about habits is consistency not intensity is important tell me about this. It's the secret sauce consistency. There are going to be so many people who listen to our work at the sovereignty of my clients thinking did Glenn just pay Cleo to like a sushi like a paid expert to say this, but it's doing All things if I was to say to you what can you do right now that you can commit to for the next six weeks. It's going to be something that's fairly Bitesize. So I call them micro habits my crabbit. Yeah like that. So you do something so small if you want to train for a 10k run you might literally start by put on your shoes and doing a 1K run or if you have someone that hasn't done any exercise at all. So we had a client recently never exercised and he wanted to lose some weight. So One of the things you want to do is exercise more and so I said to him all I want you to do is put on your shoes every day for the next week. That's it. You don't have to do anything else just put on your sneakers. Yeah, he had to find his shoes. It took a couple of days, but eventually he did that and then naturally he'd walk out to his letter box and then it was down the street and then once down the street felt automatic and natural he was then able to take that further and now it feels strange to him if he doesn't walk which is amazing because a few months. Cigar he didn't even know her shoes were so what do you say to people because when you know, we're talking now. We think that's awesome. He's on the way to developing healthier and healthier habits and it's kind of like they build on each other. So as he's got that Foundation of going down the street then he can start to layer it around the block yet. Liar it up on like those words fire it up. What do you say to because a lot of people, you know, if we're you know, we live in this diet culture where it is all or nothing and it's perfectionistic and it's the same with our eating as with our physical movement. There are always these extreme goals. And you know, if you're wanting to to lose weight the best in inverted commas the best way to do that is through extreme Behavior. So there's a lot of people who are thinking yeah, but getting my shoes on that's not going to burn many calories or Walking to the end of the street is not going to burn many calories or it's not even going to get my heart rate up. How did you or how do you sort of Coach people through what I imagine is that natural resistance to thinking well, this is just a tiny little thing. Yeah, and that definitely is a resistance because we want to get out there and feel that heart rate and I think if you're someone who does do some exercise already, you could take that further, you know, you gauge how small your micro habit is going to be but what I want to say to them is you're focusing on your results and we want to bring it back to focusing on the behavior change. Yeah, which even if it is just walking out to the letterbox and back is something that you weren't doing a week ago. And so once that forms into a habit, you've got such a great and solid foundation to then build on that because sometimes you come home from work you're so tired and there's every excuse in the world for you not to go out for a walk. But if walking is a habit no matter how you're feeling you're going to do it because it feels strange. If you don't ya isn't that fantastic focusing on the behavior and habit rather than the outcome. Yeah, and that's that's I think so often we pay lip service to that. I don't worry about the outcome or how much weight have you lost, you know, and but we really that the goal it undermines your ability to create new habits. That's right. So you're doing what I think. A lot of us say we're doing hmm. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, I think so and I tell people this analogy which really helped so try this with your clients and tell me how you go. So when you think of the brain there's neural Pathways and neural pathway is will fire. When you perform Behavior, the more you perform a behavior the thicker then your pathway becomes think of it like a highway. Yep, the busy the road, you know, the More the bigger the road has to get yeah, and so when you give it to them in that way when you say hey, you just walking out to your letterbox is actually firing up the singer of pathway making it stronger. It's Paving the way for you to be able to do your 10k run. Yep, then they start to actually really value the small wins. Yes, and they understand that it is important to start small and then but they will get to their goal. Eventually. It just won't be in two weeks because we can't we're not a fad. Sort of fat so it requires some patience, but it is helpful for people to understand that they actually building new neural Pathways. So even if their heart rates not getting up to a certain amount or they're not puffing or sweating or even if they haven't, you know seen any health benefits from eating more fruit or veggies that actually strengthening those highways in their brain that are Paving the path to help you habits. Exactly and there's Ben I would say in my experience an equal number of clients who are wanting things to go quicker and really relieved that they don't have to put in such an intense amount of work. There are a lot of clients that say you mean I don't have to cut down 2,000 calories and I don't have to burn, you know, however much at the gym every day. It's like no absolutely not this is not what this is about is real upside. Yeah, and they feel I can do this, okay. I have enough self efficacy or enough self-belief to walk down the road. Yeah, and actually is really good for building that self-belief and slowly so guys self-efficacy psychologists turn. Sorry and what it means I think it's actually a real I was hoping we would talk about this book about because self-efficacy in psychologist language Albert bandura lure of self-efficacy basically says self-efficacy is your confidence at your ability to do a specific. Cific thing so I say to people I have a very high doing psychology self-advocacy. I think I'm pretty good at it. I get pretty good results. I have a very low cooking for eight people self-advocacy and one of the reasons why self-efficacy or confidence that you can do something is so important is because it's the best predictor of the best predictor of whether you're actually do it or not your self-efficacy and your motivation to do something inextricably linked. Yeah. In my research a million years ago the correlation between motivation and self-efficacy was 64 percent. Wow, so massive. Yeah massively and and what we're sort of saying is that a lot of people, you know, a lot of people listening and watching and a lot of people in your research and people in our practice. They've done five six seven failed things so you can understand why there is this Lack of self efficacy this lack of Confidence that I can actually get some results especially long-term results. But what we're doing here is we're not trying to build self-efficacy in doing the same thing. We're trying to build self-efficacy in actually doing something different. Hence the relief exactly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely love that. Okay. So if we want to create new habits we got to do a couple of things. And so I want you guys out there listening and watching to have a think about this if I want. To create a new habit. I'm going to give myself a little bit of a breather and and not expect it to happen in 21 days depending on my habit strength and depending on how complex the behavior is and then I'm going to link that behavior to a cue. Yeah, which is going to then make it have a chance to become habit. Yeah, and I'm going to focus on consistency over intensity and that kind of means focusing. Actual habit change rather than the results which really do happen as a kind of a flow-on effect. Exactly. Okay and just having the micro habit starting small and building on that layering it up and knowing that that is doing something even if it's not something that's nutritionally important or physiologically important yet. You are creating new Pathways in the brain. Absolutely. All right, so I suppose create a you know, those those old Pathways in the brain are part of the reason. Why we get stuck in habits. Yeah, let's talk about how we break habits. So what did your research tell us and I think Breaking Habits, this is so interesting because like we were saying before habits for Mana web and so Breaking Habits becomes a sequence of events by doing one thing differently you then generate a whole new sequence of events that follow on from that that's so it makes sense to me. Yeah. Thanks fun as you know. Finn I've got bathroom Renovations. Yeah, so I've been out of my bedroom and I've still got a new bedroom and I'm using a new bathroom and sometimes it's so weird the mindfulness that's created because I'm not in my habits. I'm like, what do I do now? Oh, actually I brush my hand out. It's really weird. Yeah, but you have to think about it. Think about yeah because you're more mindful not automatic. And that would really frazzled. Someone who's quite I was going to say rigid but I should say scheduled. Like its tail. Okay. So there's two great ways to break an old habit. I call them restructuring and reprogramming. Okay, restructuring and reprogram. Yeah, so let's talk about restructuring. So because our habits are always cued by something by restructuring our environment. We actually take away a lot of those cues. So for example, one of my clients used to drive Into a fast food chain on her way home from work every day. She really struggled to stop doing this and we try to looking about her intentions and her values and her motivation and all of those things but she really struggled not to stop in there and then she realized that she was getting triggered by seeing the fast food chain at the site. Just seeing it was her trigger. That's right. So she would get you know around the corner and think not I'm not going to stop in there and as soon as she'd see it she drives stick. Straight in so I said to her why don't you just tried driving a different way home today? And she did that and she called me and she said I didn't even realize I forgot all about the fast food chain. Wow, so that thing that was like a magnet that was pulling her. Yeah into the fast-food actually was something of delete league on because the trigger wasn't there and so this is restructuring restructuring and this is not because I'm thinking some people will think okay, isn't that just the cheats way out? Or may not using my willpower but this is just understanding the way that our brains work and how we respond to those habit cues exactly and working smarter not harder. Yeah, and just I think the less just like performing a habit more increases than the neural pathway the less you do a behavior the less that neural pathway will trigger and so it's really just about creating an environment in your body in your mind that makes it easier for you later on. Because you don't have the strong habit. I think one thing to remember is when a habits and our intentions are not aligned a habits will often win when our habits and our intentions are not aligned. I'll have it too often. When yes, that's a great take home. So trying to fight against a habit is really difficult because intentions using a very intentional part of your mind it gets very Conscious mind but habits are using our subconscious part of our mind. Yeah, those two don't linked together. So trying to fight a subconscious Behavior by consciously thinking about it. It doesn't work send each move is they're going to work and so restructuring. Yes, it's cheating but it's only doing so until that habit has really died. Yeah, and then it's no doubt. You can then drive past the fast food chain and not feel triggered. Yeah. Okay. So what you're saying is in the same way that there is a strengthening of those mural Pathways and a development of those neural Pathways when you're creating a habit those old habits. Once we stop doing them those neural Pathways will weaken exactly right? Yes, so we'll get easier. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's easier. So restructuring can also be walking into the house a different way. I know a lot of people will come home from work and go straight to the fridge. Yeah Suze walking into the house through a different door or going straight into the bedroom, for example instead of the Kitchen gone T bedroom have a shower get changed just do something different in that moment restructures that environment. So the so that's restructuring now reprogramming going back to Hugh routine reward. You want to reprogram a new routine from the same trigger same Q. Thank you. We're going to do a new routine exactly. So an example of this would be at 10 a.m. You are triggered to have say a cookie you go down to the cafeteria and you get a cookie at 10:00 a.m. So when 10 a.m. Comes along you can go down to the cafeteria. You can order a cookie if that's what you want to do in that time. But if you would prefer to have something else like a piece of fruit, for example, it's using that same trigger 10 a.m. To go down and consciously order an Apple. So using half that finite little bit of willpower that you have. Equally choosing it's not just a general. I'm going to eat healthier, but I'm going to say replace this 10 a.m. Cookie with 10 a.m. Piece of fruit. Exactly and you use that little bit of willpower to then create the new habit. Yeah. The thing with reprogramming is the reward has to be the same. Yes. That's what I was wondering because you've got there has to be a habit. Sorry behavior that is going to be rewarding to exactly Lee and if an apple ain't gonna cut it don't have the Apple. Yeah, I can hear a lot of events like the Apple cliche dietitian things that you just want to have a break at 10:00 a.m. That's cool the apples going to work for you. But if you are craving the cookie for something else whether it's a nostalgic thing or sugar thing the Apple won't cut it you'll probably eat the apple and then go For the cookie, right? So there what has to be similar yet to then identify. What is it that I'm actually doing this habit for what's the purpose? What's that self exactly and then match a different routine or different Behavior to that reward. Yeah. Fantastic. It's a little bit more complicated. I think reprogramming takes a little bit of thought and they compared to restructuring, but it's really powerful and I think it's a great Point. Dr. Cleo that you you have to really work. Work to make sure it is something rewarding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking this for is to stop myself from going to the pub so much. Yeah. I ended up rather than having Saturday afternoon these like, okay Saturday afternoon. I really like going for a walk along the river but going for a walk along. The river is nowhere near as fun as having beer with my mates. Yeah. So what I needed to do was actually booked myself these indulgent 90-minute massages, which what kind of care of yeses and did it work? Yeah, it worked like a charm and my right side of either like how can you pay $130 for a massage and I think that he's been as Ron Rudin is that you get so much reward from being at the spa doing your thing. And so that is going to be something you don't need much motivation for you want to do that you're happy to do. So the Idea of reprogramming instead of doing X dou Y is a good idea but we have to make sure that Y is going to be fun or give us similar or better to what ex gave us. Otherwise, we're in habit change mode and no certain Behavior change. Yes and not inhabit change, right? So then it's always going to be something that we have to continue working towards yeah forever, and eventually that that muscle of the willpower is going to Exactly, right and it's just not enjoyable, you know forming and I think changing habits is actually quite fun. It sounds tedious. But once you start doing it, it's great because you can see achievements every week because you're building on it. Yeah, and it is interesting to when you when you're doing something a little bit different or when you're changing the Q. I'm just thinking about my experience of being in this weird space where you don't have my bedroom or my bathroom is that other things are different like I'm watching less television. Ian and I think it's just I've created this mindfulness think okay. Well, this is what I normally do but I can kind of do anything that's amazing. Actually a lot of my participants said I watching way less television. I thought I never told you to do that, but because they would do something different often times. It would be listened to a different genre of music or different radio station on the way home. Yep, and they do that and then be just so simulated by that doing something different or just satisfied to read a book or so. I suppose that's another upside of I mean habits based work rather than doing like a traditional weight loss based workers. You can have a bit of fun with it. It's pressure but more fun. Yeah, definitely fun. I would say Breaking Habits. It's a bit more fun than for me have it got you but I think it depends on your individual personality. You're someone I think that would do really well with quite a structured program or forming you nervous. Yes, you give that to me. It's not gonna It's Not Gonna Fly for that long. I mean it will but it would just take me a lot longer to achieve automaticity where you just feel so natural with doing this new Behavior. So I'm sort of thinking dr. Clare with your work with the the forming habits and the ten top tips. You've got these 10 tips and we can post them will post a link to those what those 10 tips are but it sounds like the way you're working with people. It's really people can take from this and think. We'll what habit do I want to create and just a These principles to anyway, yeah, absolutely the tips were put together based on evidence of what we know works for weight management, but the magic really wasn't in the tips. The magic was in the consistently doing these really small Lifestyle Changes. Yeah, and for each person they're actually going to be completely different. So for me, for example, I know that if I don't have an afternoon snack I end up grazing before dinner, so I'll be making dinner and Next minute. I've had a cheese platter and you know a couple of wines because I'm peckish I'm hungry. Whereas if I have an afternoon snack that tends to taper that off and so one of my tips I guess that I do is I have an afternoon snack. Yeah. Now that wasn't one of the 10 tips as per se but that works for me. Okay. So each person will be different. So this is I've got a question from some of our Facebook group members cool, and I think you might have already answered that so Sarah asks, Where do you start with a lifelong habit or an addiction to food? There's so many layers to it. I start and stop with so many different approaches. I'm not winning food as a friend and an enemy. I've got so much resistance to tackling this. Where do I start? Mmm. I'm imagining that you're going to say just start with one. Thing I am. Yeah never try to change more than three habits at a time. Never change more than three. It's overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah, right great. I love that. And then how do we know this might sound like a silly question but because this is a work I'm starting to do with clients based on your research and learning from you is that it's like let's build a couple of habits then when they become second nature. Yeah, then we will start to go. Again, I love that rule out. I'm gonna start to remember. I think that's a great take I'm never more than three at a time. How do people know when something new has become a habit. Okay, so you will know when something's a habit when you no longer need to remind yourself to do it. Okay, and it would feel pretty strange if you didn't do it anymore. Yeah, see if we call it automaticity automaticity automaticity works. On a scale and you basically it starts off at the bottom and then it goes up and then you hit this point where it's like Yep. This would feel really weird if I didn't do this anymore. That's when you know, it's a hard time, you know to have yeah, then that's when you might move on to layer it up. Yeah exactly or even doing a completely new thing because you've already got this set if you're at that goal already move on to the next one. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Now Kenny asks, and I think you've already answered this too, but I'm going to I'm going to ask it anyway, because I think that a lot of people will be thinking. Okay? Yeah, but what are the things that I need to do? Yeah, Penny asks what to habits are the most important to work on for long-term weight management and good health. And how do you go about creating those? I won't I think I know what you're going to say. Yeah. What am I going to say? You took are you going to say? Are you going to say you have to look at your individual circumstances you figure out what works for you? I am look good. Yeah, good it. Yeah, it's not what has your idea? It's so interesting because this is like the work we do with say intuitive eating or finding the right type of movement that works for you as a unique individual is yeah. We naturally I think we want the answers and it sounds a bit a bit like a cop-out to go you have to do. Works for you, but it's really a reality it is. Yeah, I talked about this this book. It's actually over there called stretching scientifically and I bought it from a guy named Thomas Kurtz. I didn't buy from him. He's order and when I read it, I'm like, okay. What is the best way to stretch to become more flexible? How long you know how many repetitions what's yeah and in it was about to region into us how many repetitions do I need to be more flexible exactly. I like how long what is the exercise of They static or dynamic if the dynamic how many swing throughs on it, but this damn annoying book and this is why I feel my clients pain because I'm naturally pretty black and white a lot of people that I see are but even if you're not diet culture creates black and white thinking people come in like they came into your program, what are the rules and so we're conditioned even if we're not naturally that way when it comes to eating and moving I think diet culture conditions us. To think that way but this darn book wouldn't give me the answers. I know it was about Glenn just you have to listen and see what the effect is on your body. And I think that's this is the work I now do with people when it comes to intuitive eating Glenn. What do I eat this time? Well, we need to look at what your body likes and what makes it feel full and satisfied and energized and not sluggish or hungry half an hour. Exactly and this is the Sev. I think what you're doing is no perfect habits you chose. Then that made a lot of sense and the were research base but really people can look at anything that they would like to do. Yeah, and it's hard to give somebody that answer as well because each individual's completely different we have different ways of how we're going to respond to food of how I body metabolizes certain food. What makes us feel full and what doesn't I mean you and I can eat the same meal and I might be hungry an hour later and it's kept you for for a long time. That's okay, you know, our bodies are different so to be able to To tell you eat this and eat that won't work for you. You have to figure that out. I think fundamentally though eating foods that are more nourishing. So anything that really is just grown Rome's swims or flies, you know, whatever is is the natural like Whole Foods and doing so mindfully if you eating mindfully, you won't be having ice cream for breakfast because you know, that doesn't make you feel good half an hour an hour. Our two hours later. Yeah, right. So I think fundamentally, it's how do I eat more nourishing food? And how do I move my body more? I like that and that's interesting. You should should raise those two points. How do I eat more nourishing food? And how do I move my body more? Because I feel like it would be interesting to get your thoughts that a lot of people find it harder to break old eating habits then to form new eating habits and often. I think when you form new eating habits like eating Something that what did you say is that that grows? I just made that up but that's Rome's swims or flies grows rights and Ventures as you've heard that because I've seen research. For example where a family has been asked, you know, the families have been broken into two conditions and in one condition, they're told to eat less Salt Fat and sugar. GE and in the other condition, they're told to eat more fruit lean protein and vegetables and the results were better for the the group that were told to eat more. Yeah. So what do you think about that I guess taking away from what you should be eating or shouldn't be eating that mentality of taking something away from you makes you feel deprived of it. And then you kind of crave it more when you put a faux fur defect they fit whatever fruit effect exactly when Focusing on putting more into your diet but more nourishing food. You're naturally going to crowd out some of the other foods that you wouldn't be have it and you don't want to be having any way so funny jeni use those words because I was doing a video with our mate Linda Cohen the nutritionist and that's one of the things she talks about is adding not subtracting and she calls it crowding. Oh, there you go. Go Lindy become so and also, When you're forming new habits, you're essentially breaking old ones as well. Absolutely you creating a new structure you're creating a new lifestyle really by the end of doing a whole bunch of new things. And so if you're eating more fruit and vegetables, for example, you are going to be breaking habits of eating less nourishing food, if that if that's the goal that you're wanting to achieve that's exactly what they found in that research. Yeah that just by telling people to or encouraging people to eat more fruit. A slain mates they ended up having less sugar. Anyway, so I think I think it also comes back to you know, we were talking before about focusing on the habits and not the results. It's what you focus on right? It's where that's your direction. Absolutely if you're focusing on fruit and vegetables that's going to be your direction and an adding more of that nourishing food into your body. Yeah. I absolutely love that. I absolutely love that. So I feel like you've answered all of our questions. Questions. Okay. Is there anything else that we need to know before we finish up? So I want to ask you about what's going on for you? Because you've got lots of million exciting things. Yeah coming up. Yeah, you know what? I would say that there aren't good habits or bad habits habits are neutral and it's whether those habits are taking us towards or away from our goals that they then need to change if you think of it because sometimes people Can demonize have it's a little bit especially if they have a lot of habits that aren't serving them. Yeah, but it when you think about it, we make over 35,000 decisions every single day. And if you had to make each one of those decisions consciously you would be absolutely spent at the end of the day to have a terrible friend. If it's our oh right and habits make our life automatic in a way that we can walk without having to think of every step like we did when we were babies and we can tie a shoe. Oh, that's why we're doing something else and so habits are actually a really powerful resource to be able if they're channeled in the right direction and also know that whatever stage of life you're in habits can be changed. It doesn't matter. If you're 80 years old or 18 years old. It's not you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Absolutely not no habits can definitely be changed. Your brain is a muscle it essentially works in the same way. And the more you use your a pathway so stronger, they'll get and the less you use them. The weekend though again, and I think that that sort of a call to be able to have a little bit of compassion for themselves because when you talk about that Q routine reward these habits they obviously it's a psychological cliche, but they did develop for a reason so there is a reason it's not just that you're lazy or you've got no willpower or you're stupid or whatever it is and at now might be the case that you just need to redirect those habits. Exactly. Yeah now I I just thought about something Gina which I think is really important to talk about because I get the feeling that I'm talking to you as every time I talk to you. I'm really excited and this stuff just makes more and more sense. Every time I talk to you. I'm sure that a lot of people are really excited to get out there and change some habits. So wherever you're watching this or you're listening to this, let us know how you went with changing a habit. Give it a go put some of this stuff in practice and see how it goes. But again, I'm mindful that we don't oversell these things and I was just thinking about you know, those brain Pathways that you were talking about and they take a while to change. Yeah. So what do you say to people who fall down because I think Falling Down is probably a natural part of this process. Absolutely if you think about habits are automatic, right your sometimes halfway through doing something before you realize you're doing it totally and it's just having that Like you said to say, you know, I'm a human. This is something I've been doing for a really long time. I'm not going to break this overnight and just having that that Grace to know that habits are going to be two steps forward one step back. But that is a part of the process part of the process. You're not doing anything wrong. Yeah, you know, that's why I say to people if you if you having these this to step forward one step back or you're falling down all that really says to us, you know, people beat themselves up about that a lot. But all it really says to us is that you play in the game you're on track. Actually because that's exactly what you should be doing. Yes, and if you weren't doing that then whatever if you're just gunning through you're not really changing habits because you're having to use self-control and motivation and so falling down expect it. It's what I would say, it's baby defined that you're doing a good job. Yeah, but just monitor yourself and I think I think setbacks the I think the difference between people that don't pick themselves back up in the people. do is it's the if when and how quickly you get back up if when and how quickly if you're someone who has a setback and then you kind of wallow in the sorrowful place for a while, you know, you've actually wasted a whole few days of not performing this new habit when you could just get back up and do it even if not as big so if for example if you want to exercise more and you haven't been doing so then even if you do, Do five minute walk at least you've sought fired off that neural pathway. Great. Yeah just doing a little bit. So falling off the wagon doesn't mean you're out of the habit or it just means you're not yet created the yeah that habit at that strength of habit. Yeah particular thing, but it will come but it will come. Yes. Very cool. Now I know because we've talked about this previously that something it is really important is accountability in creating habits. I remember me telling you Recently about my writing and you said because I'm writing a book and you said Glenn you gotta write every day and I haven't written every day, but I've come closer because I knew that you were going to speak to me and I thought practically I was going to ask me how that writing is he going the accountability is really helpful. Yes, so I'm interested to hear about this program that you have with the coaching because you're basically teaching Group of coaches in the state's. Yeah. Well the worldwide worldwide. Yeah. So in our study we saw that the people that had accountability and by that I was giving them a phone call each week lost twice as much weight as the people that didn't have the phone calls and we know from research that accountability super important and I couldn't replicate myself or my research assistants you making a million. Yeah, I couldn't do that. So what we've done is we've created. Needed a program called some Santos and that means I am healthy in Latin. So it's an affirmation as well. I wonder what that means some Santos. So I've now trained over a hundred coaches around the world and there's more each week in the principles of habit change and we've taught them a 12-month program and each month. They present a new module to their clients and the cool thing is the coaches are now calling the Clients every week and they're meeting face to face on a monthly basis. There's also groups or one-on-ones. It depends what the client wants and it is amazing because the clients have been giving that same feedback. I knew you would call and so I made sure I did all my tics this week. So what's happening is they really focusing on the behavior change because they don't want to let the coach down and we know through science that that extrinsic motivation that doing something for someone else. Is actually stronger than having that personal accountability because if you are going to do something for your own self, it's easy to go start on the new year. I start on Monday because you know, you can't start any new Behavior change unless it's Monday, right? Whereas if you're doing it for someone else. You don't want to let him down. It's like having a gym a gym buddy. Like it's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah Zach. It's the reason why we have gym buddies. Yeah. Yep figures. Sometimes that pulled to not let someone else down is more important than the pool. To not let us down exactly and that doesn't mean like psychologists can be quick to pathologize that like, oh that doesn't mean that you love yourself enough or but really we're just talking about natural human behavior and psyche. This is how it is. Don't fight it people just roll with it just can't support. Yeah. That's what whenever I have clients come in the door and they want to do regular work and build some momentum. You know, I'm a big fan of working with dietitians. I say look you really want to be seeing myself or the diet. You're not laced every week. Yeah, and that could be just the accountability. You might not even be saying anything that good crew and one of my mentors it's like Glenn. He said I could still hear his voice. He said Glenn. We like to think it is our technique you like to think it's all of the studies we read but half of it is we are just pumping up people's tires. Yes, and that's great. Yeah, that's the natural psyches that we vote. Most of us only have about a week in us. So I think that's a really Good take I'm don't rely on Willpower to keep going and then wonder why the wheels have all fallen off to get the support you need and so we're going to provide links to this because this is something that people can access this program. Yep. Absolutely provide the links for this in in the show notes. Is there a website at the moment if you jump on some Santos.com? Yeah. Well you can jump on my website. Dr. Gina clear.com Yep. They're both link straight to their perfect. So some Santos.com and how do we spell that? Um for Mary. Yep, SC S A MOS. Oh wait, I got this gonna read it. It will pick up that I've got it. I've got it here, but I've written it wrong. All right son. There's no no it's so I should know my phonetic who alphabet but it's um, yeah, sa NOS got you.com.com or you can go to dr. Gina Cleo.com. Dr. Jana Cleo, which is www.ge.com a CLE oh.com. That's it. Yeah cool. You can also while we're connecting you with Jenna because there is going to be a lot of people that are going to want to reach out to you. What's your Instagram handle? Dr. Dana Clair's? Dr. Jana Cleo easiest thing in the world follow. Dr. Gina on Instagram. Now, the other thing that I wanted to talk to you about is coming up you are creating an online habit change program of your own. Yes. So tell us about that so The some saunas program is an amazing 12-month program. But yeah Big program some people don't want that huge Affair commitment. Although I recommend it because they get that one-on-one support but there's a 12-8 12-week program coming out called habits for Change and that program will come out in 2019 and it's basically all the principles that we've spoken about but helping somebody move towards their goals using their habits rather than Our chain fantastic fantasy. Thanks. So again, this 12 modules and everything from Mindful eating to movement to the intention Behavior Gap why we want to do something but we end up doing something else and really explaining the mechanisms around that fantastic. Yes. That's so great. So you're really applying this habit changed all of the things that people want to do differently to take better care of their health. Exactly. So again, you can go to to Gina's website for that and we'll provide some links. In the show notes to that come now. Dr. Janet you got to tell me because I think you I heard on the Grapevine. You've got two other crazy things coming up and you told me about one of them briefly the have it change Institute. Yes, but then if we're allowed to let the cat out of the bag, you gotta tell us about the other one too. Okay, so really briefly that habit change Institute, I'm creating for health professionals who are in the field and they're wanting to change health behavior, but not understanding the difference between behaviors and habits. So really instilling that long-term change into people. So that's briefly that Institute now and this institute will be about All sorts of habits. Yes. Yes it will. Yes. Thank you. So it would be relevant to anything from business habits to relationship habits to you know health habits. It's anything really in your life that you want to improve on. Yeah, but you want to do so long term. Yeah, so will provide links to that too because we do have a lot of health professionals that that listen or watch the show. Well, it's not ready yet, but it's definitely in the works about the time that you hear this. It'll be in the word in the works. And also I've got to put it out. They're these guys will be having a laugh. I think this habit change program is going to be awesome. So I'm going to talk with you later and see if we can organize a sneaky discount for our audience. Oh cool. Yes. I think I've eaten something it out audience would love to get into and it's just a I think we are doing a little bit of it more of it due to your work, but there's nothing like learning from the master. I think you so well, thank you in advance for the discounting a nice and doing that public. I like that but I thought to myself. Okay, the last one the last one so big as you know, we in you said earlier, there's been a lot of media and a lot of interest for what we want to do but not everybody wants to pick up a medical literature article and read through that. We're not all research gigs. Not all research Geeks. Yeah. And so I feel like it's only a natural progression to write a book and a Sure. I finished my thesis. I thought that's it. I'm never running running again a hundred thousand words done, but there's just been so much interest and I feel almost a liability to do that. So they'll be a book yet be a book coming out. I'm not going to put a timeline to it, but I will be writing every day. We checking on you we checking on you. So I get the Habit change book will really be bring it back to ex, you know starting from what is a habit and why do I have it? And how do I change it that'll really be the Crux of it and again relevant to any Behavior change. Yeah. So if you have liked what we're talking about today, you will love that book. Yeah. Yeah, very exciting that it's it's Janet not not to oversimplify. But with this new approach it is when you explain it. It's actually very simple it is if people can get their head around. Low pressure approach see it is a bit of fun. What they're actually doing is simpler. And that's the reason why I feel things like non dieting and enjoyable movement and habit change work better in the long term than what people mainly do because if you can wrap your head around it. It's actually a lot easier. That's very true. It is easier. It is such a relief to not have to do something in extreme, even though that's what we think we want to do. It's really not well, thank you. Dr. Claire for coming on the show. It's where so like-minded and I love speaking to like-minded people but also people who can extend on what we do. So there's a fantastic Gap there that that I know that everyone who's listening or is really going to benefit from and wherever you're watching or listening try to just see if you can break one habit or make one habit and using some of the things that you've learned today and we'll be here to provide you with a little bit of accountability. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for being with Jenna and I I really do love how her work dovetails so beautifully with hours but it also adds something extra which I've found extremely helpful when working with my clients since the interview and I'm sure you'll find it really helpful to and I want to invite you to get further involved with dr. Cleo's work. If you think it can help you the some sign off program is excellent. I've had a few clients do it since Interview and they really do love it, especially that regular accountability with the phone chats and in-person meetings to keep them on track the website to check out for that program is www.samsung.com s um Samo s.com now, dr. Jean is own program isn't out just yet, but it is on the way. And I've had a sneak peek at the modules and let me tell you it's gonna be pretty cool so you can stay in touch with that by visiting Gina's website, which is www.hyken.com GI n a CLE oh.com. Dr. Gina Cleo.com. And if it's not up when you listen to this just sign up for her newsletter, so you'll know as soon as it's ready. Thank you so much for tuning into the Glen McIntosh. Are I am yours in Breaking old habits that no longer serve you and creating some new ones that do and I'll look forward to seeing you really soon.
Research suggests that half of everything we do is habitual. But most attempts to improve our health actually focus on changing behaviours rather than habits, meaning we still need to consciously use effort and willpower in order to continue our improvements into the long-term. Our next guest has identified this huge problem and made it her life’s work to research some amazingly simple ways to create healthy habits that last for life. In this playful and lively interview, Australia’s only full-time habits researcher Dr Gina Cleo and I discuss: - The difference between behaviours and habits. - Setting the record straight on how long it takes to create a habit. - Gina likes variety, Glenn likes routine (and what this means for you!) - You only need motivation to get started (habits keep you going!) - Changing habits WITHOUT a diet or exercise plan (no yo-yo!) - How habit change is NOT sexy, but it IS life-changing. - Creating micro-habits to re-wire the brain’s pathways. - Breaking habits through ‘restructuring’ and ‘reprogramming’. - How to make new habits that are as rewarding as old habits! Selected Links from Podcast: Pre-Order Thinsanity: https://www.weightmanagementpsychology.com.au/thinsanity Sum Sanos Program: https://www.sumsanos.com/ Dr. Gina’s Website: https://www.drginacleo.com/ The Ten Top Tips: http://www.weightconcern.org.uk/sites/all/themes/weightcon/images/OriginalTTTLeaflet.pdf Video with Lyndi Cohen about adding, not subtracting: https://www.weightmanagementpsychology.com.au/episode-34-combining-intuitive-eating-and-nutritious-eating/ 