Hey there, listener and welcome to the very first episode of blessed are the binary Breakers a podcast all about the intersections between gender and Faith. Let me start with a bit about me and why I'm making this podcast. My name is Avery Smith. I'm a non-binary seminarian. I'm the creator of the queerly Christian Tumblr blog and I'll be the one hosting this series. There areA ton of wonderful resources for Trans people of Faith out there. There's more and more springing up every year. I want to be part of that effort to ensure that everyone has access to a wide variety of media websites videos books communities that can support them on their gender Journey furthermore. A lot of the resources currently out. There are for one specific Faith group or featured the voices primarily of those who have an academic background in religion or who are ordained ministers. I hope to enter You people of all sorts of Faith traditions and who occupy different levels or roles in their communities from the minister who leads services to the person who just comes and sits in the pews quietly. This podcast will be a space for Trans and non-binary people of a whole variety of backgrounds and belief systems to share their diverse experiences. Whether that's growing up in one faith and leaving it for another one leaving religion altogether, whether that's about finding the Divine in every aspect of your transition or setting your relationship status with God to It's Complicated whether you Worship in a community or by yourself or not at all. I hope that this podcast will become a treasure Trove of stories and wisdom from those of us who are transgender and have any sort of relationship. faith hearing the stories of people who have encountered the same questions obstacles and joys that you have can be such a source of life through this podcast. I hope to add to that collection of stories and I hope that as that collection grows the wisdom and blessings that trans people can offer Faith communities becomes more and more evident. So without further Ado, let's dive into this first episode. Just to let you know before we start the following audio was recorded before I purchased the microphone that I'm currently using for this introduction. So hang in there if the audio is not perfect quality and hopefully future episodes will sound a little bit better. Now I will normally be the one conducting the interviews in this series. But for today, I will be the one being interviewed by my lovely fiancee Leah who has joined me in my childhood bedroom to record this episode Leah. Do you want to say hello? Hello. Everybody now Leah is not trance. She is probably the only cisgender person who will appear in this series just because she's helping me out by Being the one to interview me today. Please forgive us if we encounter any audio difficulties such as me trailing off awkwardly and leaving Leah to finish my sentences. This is the first time either of us has done anything like this. They're also Leah cubes doing gestures that you will not be able to see so that's fun. But yeah a little bit more about the two of us. I am 24 years old and she is 25. She currently studies Audiology and Lanta Georgia while I study Jesus thing. I'm currently aiming to get my masters of divinity and I'm doing an independent study on transgender Theology and starting this podcast is part of my goals for that study. I am doing all right, you want to get into it? Yeah, I'll pass the reins over to you since you're the one conducting this interview. All right, the very first question is who are you who are you and how Did you get into this house? Well, like I said, my name is Avery I use they/them pronouns. I grew up in Ohio, which is where we currently are though. I attended the University of Alabama for undergrad. I studied English and Spanish and Latin there. I'm a great lover of languages of poetry of the Bible of social justice. And so that eventually led me into Our Seminary but before I ever got to that point, I was Catholic. I was raised Catholic. My parents are both Irish Catholic as most people in this area of Cleveland are and so they gave me some children's Bibles, you know, the ones with the pictures and very few sentences in them to read while I was growing up and they also took me and my siblings to church every And typically Saturday evenings, not Sunday mornings because that's something you can do in Catholic land. I would say that I was always the most religious of my siblings and parents for whatever reason because while my parents did, you know, take us to church and had me go to these hour-long religious classes every Monday up until 8th grade that was about all they did to sort of introduce me to Faith. Rest, I just sort of did on my own and what were those other you mentioned kind of connecting with faith on your own apart from your family structure. Other than like youth sort of activities. What did you do on your own? Oh, yeah. I tried to pray every day. You also read the Bible a lot, right? Oh, yeah in ninth grade was the first time that I read the Bible the actual non Abridged Bible not the children's versions that I'd grown up with. I read the actual Bible all the way through during Lent in ninth grade. I gave up novels for Lent and I read a lot so I was able to finish the whole Bible in those 40 days. And so I was able to pick out the overarching themes in this text that is really a compilation a compilation of so many separate texts and books by different authors doing that picking out those overarching themes. I found that they were things like God always listening for listening to the oppressed when the Hebrews cry out in Egypt God hears and response when profits and people like Hagar they cry out to God and God hears and responds and so like from you know from a very young age with children's Bibles. And then once I read the real Bible the whole Bible I saw that overarching theme and so then in college when I started realizing I was queer, I knew that a lot of Christians such as the Catholic background I had and I always sort of accepted it without questioning until I Reason to question that you know, they said that the Bible says that being LGBT is a sin but once I started really thinking about it the Bible that I knew was a Bible for oppressed and marginalized people it was for people like us and so that was really helpful and at that same time. I also found, you know, I started doing research. I found websites like hope remains and books like God and the gay Christian to help me. With the sexuality aspect of my queerness, but it was harder to find things about the being trans, you know being non-binary that aspect of my queerness. There's not as many books out there, especially non-academic ones that are just being circulated widely, but I found Austin heart Keys videos, you know, how much I love him. Yeah, Austin Hartke his YouTube videos are what really really rescued me from my confusion. You should about whether the gender aspect of my queerness was okay, if you know what I'd been told that God had made me a girl and so I just had to deal with that was true or not. It was his videos that showed me. It was like I had read all those stories in the Bible that he would talk about but he was showing me how to read them with a queer lens. And so that was really helpful to have that biblical background. And so I encourage people to read their Bible and and don't listen just to what churches tell you when they say, you know, oh, well the Bible says that this thing is wrong or this thing is right actually read and find out for yourself. You should tell everyone about when you used to preach to your doll. Oh, I did do that. Yeah when I was really little one of my earlier memories is lining up all my dolls and stuffed animals after going to mass have having heard the homily that Father Tim gave I remember going home. Pretty often probably not every week. But if it was a homily I liked I would go and try to retell that homily in my own version to all my dolls and stuffed animals and I would use my Father Tim voice which is just be very loving and sincere and genuine. Oh genuine like I heard him do I wanted to be a Catholic priest before learning that they only allow people who are assigned male at At Birth to be a priest so I had to let that one go and so for a long time then I thought maybe I would be a nun. I have a lot of nuns in my family by a lot. I mean to so, okay not that many but but both of those nuns are one is my great aunt and another is an aunt and they both were pretty influential on me, especially in middle school and high school. And so the idea of following in their footsteps made a lot of sense to me, I could see the good that they were giving to the world. And you know, so I figured that could be the path now. I was called to follow and just their you what we've already kind of touched on how gender intersected with your choices in your path in life when it came to Faith. But can you talk a little bit about your story and your gender? Yeah. Yeah. So I think I learned about the concept of someone being transgender before I learned that being gay could be a thing because I remember in seventh grade. I found a newspaper article that framed as a little girl who wanted to be a boy AKA. It was a trans guy, but it didn't it didn't the newspaper did not use the language. I would consider appropriate but it was my first look at that. I had no idea and at that point I had just reached puberty like barely. I hadn't even started my period yet, but I had gotten the health class talk about what was going to happen to my body and I was Terrified and upset and I did not want it to happen. And so when I read that article about this girl who wanted to be a boy it really resonated with me, but also didn't quite fit me because he wanted to be a boy. He wanted to be just like his brothers. It kept the article kept saying things about how he wanted to stand up when he could pee and I could not relate to that. I did not want to be a man at all. I like if I had to pick so I figured at that point and this as you know in my early days sort of right before and then during puberty I was like, okay, so I have I can pick there is a little bit of choice, but the only choice I knew was I can pick to be a girl or a boy if I had to pick one. I guess I'll be a girl and so I went through puberty. I like just sobbed when I had to start wearing bras and shaving my legs just the concept of going into public and being seen as a girl made me so upset and self-conscious. Um, and so I would wear, you know these hoodies every day to try and sort of cover up my even in the summer. Yeah. Yeah, I would wear sweatshirts even in the summer to cover up my figure not that I had much of one. But to me it just felt so obvious like surely everyone staring at my boobs that even though they're barely was anything there at that point. I was so self-conscious and what I now know is dysphoria this distress over. What people say my body means about my gender and then what people because of what my body says to them. They read me as female and that just made me really uncomfortable. And so, you know, I was not a very social person part of that is by nature. I'm introverted and I like having Fewer friends that I have deep relationships with rather than a ton of friends, but part of it was I would purposely stay home because then no one could see me and hide up in my room all day and I really loved the Saints like Joan of Arc who was you know, she was assigned female at female at Birth but she put on a soldier's outfit cut her hair and ran around with them. And so to me I was you know, I loved those stories of the female saints who didn't Go by their society's gender roles. They would shirk marriage. They wouldn't marry men. They would cut their hair and refused to be mothers and wives and so as a Catholic I was glad to have those stories available to me of these women who are lifted up sometimes for the wrong reasons this idea of virginity being the reason it was virtuous, but for me at that point in my life, it was very helpful to see that that I didn't have to marry a man and be a wife to a man because that that played into my gender issues in a way that was really distressing. But yeah, finally I went to college I met Leah and I also found tumblr.com. Yes. I am one of those non-binary people who found out that was a thing through Tumblr and that is valid to to use that word because it The first time some some post on Tumblr mentioned non-binary genders and it was like a flash of lightning. Just the Revelation that there were people like me who did not feel like they fit into these binary genders of male and female that Western Society presses on all of us. So I read all these stories online about different non-binary people and how the experiences can be so different how it was okay to be feminine like what Society calls feminine and still not be a girl because I really did like dolls growing up and I love to sew and I love Tree and I hate Sports. So these things that society says well then why would you want to be a girl you like all these girly things? You know, I learned online. That's okay. Like I can have traits that are considered feminine while still not being a girl. It's always so funny because in contrast me as SS girl I tend to be the one who has the more quote unquote masculine interests like the other day. I was really into the football game and you were just there because you love me. Yeah. Yeah, she's definitely the more masculine of the two of us and yet she's the one who will sometimes put on more makeup, you know, and we're sometimes likes to dress more girly and sometimes less. So I think we're both a pretty good mix of what Society calls masculine and feminine. But yeah it is that like gender is so weird that way because to me, it's so clear that I am. Non-binary and not a girl and yet shit like and while having these feminine traits while Leah as far as I know like you've never questioned being a girl like Lea is happily and comfortably cisgender and female despite loving Sports and all these things that societies claims are boy things. Yeah. I was just always described as a tomboy and really leaned into that. Yeah, and I just had a lot of like leeway. I feel like in particular being from the south. I'll gag tomboy girl is even like better like then like a sissy quote-unquote like a sissy girl like a tomboy girl is like even better more valued because you're you can do all of the leg. That's so kind of thing and all the other. Yeah tough that goes on that's so messed up. It's just a different color. Yeah, and that like, I feel like that saying that makes us need to address the idea of like journalized misogyny because anyone growing up in this messed-up Society is going to have sexist tendencies that that girls who are obsessed with makeup are somehow more vapid or less intelligent which is ridiculous. And so I know like you with the color pink. Oh I hated pink. I hated paying for my whole life until like two years ago. And now I love pink. Yeah now when I buy Leah presents at 10:00, I look for pink stuff because pink is her. Color now and like one thing that people will tell trans men and non-binary people who were assigned female at Birth what they'll tell us is that we don't want to be girls because of internalized misogyny that we just hate Womanhood. We've been taught to hate ourselves. So we really are girls but are internalized misogyny is so bad that we don't want to be girls anymore. And while I get where they're coming from because it's true. I have absorbed a lot of misogyny just like anyone in the society. That's not why I'm trans. I'm not a girl who hates being a girl. I'm a non-binary person who through realizing that I am non-binary has actually come to unpack some of the misogyny. I've absorbed. I feel like in exploring my own gender identity and my femininity as it exists apart from Womanhood has helped. Me really come to respect women for my own gender. I tend to say that identify strongly with women, even though I do not identify as a woman. So I think that's you know, that sort of something that cisgender people are transgender people. We all need to work through the crap that Society tells us about gender and that's part of my calling to move on into that. I feel like part of my calling And as a non-binary person is to help other people do that work. Like I had to do that work and I see gender and a unique way because of my status outside of the binary. And so I can be part of that educating effort that everyone of every gender has to do in the society and I also approached that as a person of faith for me. My calling to sort of help educate people about queer issues is very much intertwined with my calling to Up, you know serve people. in the body of Christ and maybe serve as a voice for people who are willing, but they just don't know like you've done so many trans workshops in different places and and pretty much all of your Official Ministry, I guess we would say has been in more conservative regions of the country. It's been in over Alabama and Kentucky, but where people may not just have may not have as much access to information that they need. Yeah, like my through Seminary I've been able to work with churches that are considered. I'm pcus a presbyterian the progressive branch and so we have more light. Is the affiliation of Presbyterian churches that want to be affirming of LGBT individuals but so many of those more like churches have not done the work yet of what that means about. How do you affirm and welcome trans and non-binary people they were Progressive for the 1990s, but they haven't updated their views. And so that is yeah. My so much of my calling has been about bringing them that information that those churches sometimes want to let you know they want to be educated and they just Haven't started it so I have been able to help them start that work. So, you know just to say that like I feel like being trans is part of how God made me very intentionally. In order to shape me towards this purpose that God has given me God has called me to do this work and being gender Queer as part of that and on my handy dandy note card that I was prepped with before. The only thing we haven't touched on in the calling section is marriage, which I as your fiance. I'm very interested to hear about. Yeah. I just I personally see at least three sort of branches in my vocation. One is the one that people think of when you hear the word vocation the first thing you might think of at least me as a Catholic is priesthood or Pastor hood or being a nun those ordained Ministries. So for me one branch of my vocation is to be a pastor. I really feel called to being a pastor and serving a church in that regard and then like I just mentioned I see being the genderqueer being non binary as part of the calling. God gave me to be Open about my transness in ways that help other people learn about the diversity of gender. And that nothing is as binary as we wanted to be in God there truly is no male and female meaning that that binary as Paul writes it in Galatians 3:28. There is no binary male and female and then yes, my the third branch of my calling is marriage that I do see myself as To marry Leah who is of the same assigned gender as I am and so back when I was Catholic, you know, officially Catholic only Catholic that was not a path. That was really open to me. I could not marry Leah in a Catholic Church. I could not pursue ordained Ministry of the kind which I feel called in a Catholic church. And so I had to move Beyond Catholicism I had to become I had to become a member of a denomination that would allow me as a queer person to marry the person I felt called to marry and to be a pastor and you know leaving the Catholic church was one of the hardest decisions I ever had to make I really love Catholicism. It's hard to explain to people who didn't grow up in it what the reverence of it the sacraments the Saints the Eucharist. Test what all of those mean to me. They're really precious. But the Catholic church with its doctrines was choking me. I felt strangled and blocked from my callings. So I had to go. God called me to go outward. And in the end I am so thankful to have left the Catholic church because it turns out I didn't leave it. I was not kicking Catholicism out of my heart. I was just expanding my heart. So that protestantism could fit into I've come to love a lot about the Presbyterian Church. I like the idea of being reformed and always reforming I like the celebration of diversity that I find in the Presbyterian churches. And part of I like the way things get voted on decided on together. But that hasn't quenched my love for Saints or the Catholic Eucharist. I feel like there's a wedding of Catholicism and protestantism in my heart joining them together, even though everyone says that they're two different too divisive to join together. It's all about breaking binaries wherever I see them. Being non-binary taught me that I think. But anyway, I should get back to talking about how exactly my movement into the Presbyterian Church happened back in undergrad Leah and I are junior year of college found a little church outside right outside the University of Alabama. That is now called Grace Presbyterian Church highly recommend it to anyone in the Tuscaloosa area. It's a fantastic. Yes to go visit because when Lea and I went there we were still going through our angsty period of like, oh gosh, are we Are we allowed to be together? I believe you but like it's wrong and I want to be with you Bob. But what if God hates us for it, and yeah and like that that guilt and that worried that even when things felt so right when we could see the good fruit that our relationship was having even even with all that the sphere Grace Presbyterian Church when we found them helped us. Feel, you know, calm find rest and hope and joy because we were surrounded by all these other LGBT people and couples and people who loved us as we were and now when we visit it literally feels like family. Yes, and I've never and I've grown up in church also my whole life and I've never been able to say that about anywhere I've ever been to. All right. So last thing what would you like to tell trans and non-binary people of Faith? What? Words of wisdom would you give oh gosh. Yeah. I'm the one who wrote this note card with questions. And did I think of an answer to this? I think what I'd like to say is that you should always keep exploring and hoping and dreaming bigger people see being trans and non-binary as suffering always suffering and there's a lot of pain in it. Thanks to the transphobia in the world, but you can enjoy it to the journey doesn't have to be only pain and guilt and fear. It can be fun. It can be so fun to try on new clothes that you weren't allowed to wear before or to try on different pronouns or names. Just kind of explore that and I was so lucky enough to be part of your journey. Yeah and getting to get happy with you over stuff like like Top surgery and and you know finding a name that fit and all that fun. Yeah. It's so wonderful to have people like that in your corner. And if you don't feel like you have people like that right now reach out to us on queerly Christian on Twitter or Tumblr and we will be that person for you. I want to turn that question back towards Yulia since this is probably the only episode where we'll have a token cisgender person. What would you say to cisgender people of Faith who are LGBT or who are straight any sis people who want to be good at lies to the trans and non-binary people in their lives because you tend to be a pretty good A lied to me. What advice do you have for them? Well, I feel like I'm a good Ally because I have Learn to listen, if I do something that's transphobic even if I had that even if that is not my intention because I know so many people many people get defensive when somebody is like hey what you said was transphobic what you said was not cool. They're like, oh well like I I'm not like the know like, yeah, it's not a commentary on your character. It's just maybe there's something underlying that you haven't thought about before so to take that moment. Just learn from it and try to take your defenses down when that does happen. And also to learn our history learn like the the queer Community sister e and the history of your faith community out again kind of time back to the whole not just taking what faith leaders say at face value. Yeah looking back in and seeing who has really played a part in establishing where we are today. Yeah. That's awesome. All right, I think that wraps up our interview. Yeah, we've given them our parting words. I'm thankful for the opportunity to be a part of this very very first episode and I am excited to see it to continue. It's always nice to have you along for the ride. That's that's what that marriage callings off about. But yeah that wraps up the first episode of blessed art thou o binary Breakers, please. Free to let me know what you thought or any questions or comments that you have. Feel free to send those two queerly Christian dot tumblr.com and until next time go break some binaries and be a blessing to the world with your life.
In this first episode, Avery discusses what made them start up this podcast. They then explore how genderqueerness is part of the vocation they have been discerning since their childhood days of preaching homilies to stuffed animals, all the way through their present studies at Louisville Seminary. Talking points: - The goal is to be a podcast for trans and nonbinary persons of all faiths and experiences (0:00 - 3:05) - Introducing the interviewer, Leah, and digging into Avery's childhood (3:06-6:15) - Avery's faith practices growing up -- scripture and sermonizing (6:16-11:00) - Avery's journey to recognizing their genderqueerness (11:01-16:09) - Internalized misogyny? Avery's nonbinary femininity and Leah's "tomboyness" (16:10-20:00) - Educating churches on trans issues (20:01-22:03) - Avery's three-branched vocation: pastorhood, genderqueerness, and marriage (22:04-24:03) - Breaking binaries between Catholicism and Protestantism -- Avery holds both traditions in their heart (24:04-27:14) - Avery and Leah share their final words of wisdom (27:15-end)  Where else you can find Avery: - queerlychristian.tumblr.com - Queerly Christian on Youtube, including their video "God's Presence in transition - top surgery and hrt" - Their website "Trans Christianity: A Timeline of Gender Diversity in Christian History" - https://queerlychristian.wixsite.com/transchristianity - queerlychristian36@gmail.com 