Play loose Netter. Just talking to teachers talking to teachers about academic research and evidence-based practice with continuing professional development at PNA 1977 on Twitter. Snapchat urges talking to teachers. Happy New Year and welcome to the first nail as natta of 2020. So this is also our one-year anniversary and opportunity to thank those of you that have been on the journey from the start and to welcome those. New listeners to the podcast. So this week's he's our first new format change to sustain their lives matter moving forwards. So we'll still have the TD T section. Obviously, once the tdt team are back in the office next week. This will be followed up by our main interview as ever which represented by me and our team of presenters. So the moment that includes me and Katherine Morgan and Emma Turner and members of the team T DT so we've got David Maria, Bethany and or Michelle And I think in here is to increase our capacity diversify our interviews and interviewees and hopefully make things more interesting for you the listener, so I'll be continuing with the podcast pedagogy section and I'll still be welcoming all of you to send in your Reflections on whatever you're reading at the moment and it should be much easier than ever before so simply click on the message button on the anchor app or the send them to an email address that you can find on the nail as natter Dot card UK. A website will also continue to promote events that will be of interest. So feel free to send those again via Twitter that sap PNA 1977 or the website as mentioned before so into this week's podcast and we have Catherine Morgan day buting if that's the right word as a presenter. She'll be interviewing Vivian pour it and as you all we'll know Katherine is a former guest. She's a learner a teacher leader and chair of Governors and Vivian is the Strategic leader of hashtag women Ed and she's also the co-editor Of the hashtag 10% braver book. She's a passionate advocate of professional Learning and Development and I've been privileged to see Vivian speaker few times absolutely Sensational on the topics of professional development and Leadership. So this will be a fantastic podcast and it should be quite a cosy chat as Catherine and viviane know each other quite well from over the years. So sit back relax or get into the running shoes as it is, of course red January, so get those on and settle in or get ready for another. Nele Schnatter this week with Katherine Morgan and Vivian pirate. So I'm really excited to receive things nailers matter when Phil asked me if I would step in an interview Vivian pour it. I absolutely jumped at the chance unfortunate to know Vivian in a range of circumstances. Not only women are dead. But I've been really really fortunate to have worked with her in my previous role as director for fresh professional Learning and Development in a multi-academy trust in Birmingham. So good evening again, and how are you? Hello. Hello, Kathryn now, I'm very well. Thank you. So pleased to be talking with you nattering with you absolutely will we matter quite frequently don't work that we do with this is really special. So I've got a series of questions and I've thought long and hard about the types of questions to ask you that I feel will be particularly beneficial for our listeners. So we're going to start off just learning a little bit more about you Vivian because obviously many many listeners will be familiar with You're familiar with you because of your work with women at Ed. But there's so much more to Vivian poet than just women Ed. If you give us a bit of a rundown of your career to date then that would be really really good certainly the English and drama at University and did a master's in English literature University and then my pgce then I became an English. Drama teacher, which I absolutely loved fabulous subjects to work with continue that for a while and came here to drama then became head of expressive art and then in a fit of pique because I wasn't able or wasn't an opportunity to join me senior leadership team at the school where I was head of expressive art. I took a two-year job as a local Authority. Visors asks, which included drama dance and music. So my very first dance workshops that I've ever done in my life were fascinating about to learn very quickly the brats there two years later. I went back into schools became what was then the equivalent now of an assistant head teacher and the deputy head teacher and then head teacher on the sorry. London borders in Southwest London, that was my school career Journey after that. I was seconded to the Department of Education for two years and then had to decide to go back into a school or not, but I got the bug for doing something broader because the DFE secondment had been as CPD advisor to London and I really really loved Of doing that London was a very exciting time because of London challenge then and just in trying to make the decision to go back into the school where I was head teacher or not. The Institute of Education offered me a job. So I had worked in schools and worked in a local Authority and then I thought well if I work in the University, I've done the span of Education organizations. I was there about 12 years in the end working with all those same schools. I've been working in across London and then two years ago. I left the Institute and now work for myself as a leadership consultant. So the crease enough, I mean, yes, there are parts to this story where I'd like to go a little bit deeper. And I know that you've had an incredibly varied career and I was fortunate a couple of weeks ago will probably months ago now to have heard you talk. So passionately about your first drama group and everyone saying that you met up with them recently I met up with some I met up with some of the ones I taught there some of whom were in a drama group. I worked with for four years in the school. That's Testament to lasting impact isn't it? The different roommate doesn't just an academic years it last a lifetime for P for them to be able to meet up and continue that connection. I think is really special. It was quite amazing because they could actually tell me a lot more about some of the lessons they remembered then I could remember and we're talking a long time though, you know all the 35 years. So yes, it was very special and it focuses of time with Still for a little bit and what was even more special was one of them was a teacher and one of them was a it owns her own Theater Company in is a theater director working in drama for audiences actors and audiences with learning difficulties and it just felt very proud. I felt very proud that they felt I did influenced their careers in those ways. It was really lovely. That's really lovely. Yes. That's what it's all about. Isn't it is it goes under and it's fantastic if you get the opportunity to to actually hear people saying that to you because in teaching such a busy job, certainly, even when I was teaching and much more now, you don't always Get to know some of those responses and so yes, it was lovely my partner to listen to me telling him everything about it three times over it was wonderful. I think that comes with the territory though. Doesn't it having a partner who's being a teacher or yeah. Unfortunately they have to they have to hear are many stories because it's called a job. Yeah, really lovely. So you also be in a chair of Governors. Haven't you all your friend Miss Sutter didn't I? Yeah, I was thinking because you I need to take up the governor and I'm now a tear myself. So yeah, tell us a little bit about the role role of chair. Well at the time I was director for school Partnerships at The Institute of education and one of our very close local schools. With whom I had worked before behind you stand in London. So very very, you know, I was in a school city as you get they couldn't get hold of a chair of Governors at all. and stay Institute and because I was probably the person with the most secondary experience in the organization and because they were a partner school and then I became their chair of Governors and I did that for four years to help them find a new chair of Governors that would step up that was more from the local community because I think that's quite important tough school had too tough. We all had tough job to do but my very first chair of Governors meeting was in the brand new school building which kind of felt that we were we were making a new start to the school and I loved I loved being a chair of Governors in that school. It's wonderful really loved it. Yeah. I think the evidence is a huge responsibility and a huge privilege and and I think it's an opportunity. For for us to work with schools and to really support them because as we know is, you know both having been leaders. It's hugely challenging being in a senior leadership team. And I think it's important to have that relationship with your Governor so that you feel supported and challenged obviously making sure that we're doing as much as we possibly can use the school forward. It's certainly a role that I'm absolutely thoroughly enjoying I think, you know an important thing to do. But that's good. I really enjoyed it and one of the things I really enjoyed particularly remembering my camera's a headteacher the was that one hole at the end of a meeting between myself and the head teacher. He was the one who left with all the jobs to do and I really liked that part of being a chair of Governors because it felt I could support and I could help but of course, it's not my job to actually then make it work. And that's the strength and the success of the head teacher and the team around the head teacher that does that but to be able to guide and make suggestions and influence and also to learn myself from their experiences. And yes, it was a fabulous time. We just touched upon their and your time and headteacher, so I'd be really interested. Obviously. There'll be many people from the women Ed Community listening to this podcast, but also from from from other networks across our sector reflecting on your time as head teacher then what do you feel some of the main lessons and successes were during this period and that's a really interesting question because to film with so many of both in so many lessons and they can certainly lots of successes in the school as a As a team together, I took on the edges of a successful school, but one that I felt was quite insula, and that had a lot. to celebrate but it didn't really do that either internally or externally and I think that's something that's really important that schools need to celebrate their successes the successes of the students of the individual staff the collective group of Staff but also their Community work and the impact they have in the community so that that was That was a lesson. I learned very well from being a deputy head and I'd be like absolutely fabulous ed teacher and I could see that it was needed in that school. So we set about a whole culture of Celebration really and that came about from from a lesson I learned which was we had an on-call system right? Lots of schools have and we were all grumbling one day in SLT of About that. It wasn't a great part of the job to be called out regularly or a lost in a day and I said, okay, right. We're going to shift it then we've got to shift that I said, I'm going to sit in my office with the walkie-talkie and instead of calling me out because there's a problem. I want to be called out because there's something wonderful happening in the classroom. There's really just looked at me and thought what so I stepped in my office one day and I made sure I didn't have a lot of jobs to do. I could just Tinker away waiting and I waited and I waited I didn't answer it all in stuff briefing everything and then about 10 minutes for the end of the lesson. I got a call which was can you rush down to the gym because they're not sure how long they can all be stood up in the pyramid. So I rushed down to this class with with a camera tougher photo of the pyramid just before they all collapsed as it right there and was just going to spend time talking with them when more coal started to then come through because I think the staff hadn't been used to that and we took a photo we sent the photo home to the students and well on the Friday briefing we were able to talk I was able to talk about what I'd seen so then a so the next SLT meeting they said can we do it as well? Not just you they won't see the pyramid. No. No, I'm really really knew. It was just a very simple way of saying what I wanted the school to be about really and and it and it worked the corner. Ounce for problems reduced and we couldn't cope it tons of the call-outs for come and see this and the children loved it as well. The kids loved it as well because I even though you know big 16 year old lad say, they don't really none of that interests them. They only said that from to their friends they love to taking the photo homegoing. Look I did this today and and the parents getting a note so that was one success I think. We changed the culture of the school and I learnt that lesson that that's what we should be focusing on not not the problems. We feel that that made a really powerful shift because for so long we do focus on on the problems don't we were forget that actually first and foremost you have to really recalibrate that culture where it's one of positivity and that can't be done via a list of non-negotiable that that's part of the life and soul of a school and it takes time and it takes trust doesn't it giving people the free and who to make those calls bring you down their classrooms really powerful. So one of the Things are absolutely knew as a deputy had but which I learned by making that shift in that culture is that the culture of the school is probably the most important role appear that any leader has to to work on and especially the head teacher. So being able to I know everybody this defines their Vision, but I'm really interested in that Vision in practice and what the tangibles and the Tangibles are in the school then that tell you that the culture you want is working and that was important to me and the other success we had what was to become to be awarded the status of a training school, which many of our listeners might not have ever heard of those but they were the forerunners of the teaching schools now. So focused on initial teacher education, so having student placements, which the school was very successful with even before I arrived but because I wanted the school Success to be out there. I think within my first six weeks so great were applying for this just to know that we're good at it and we were successful and it was so that that really was what got me into much. Deeper work about how do we ensure that the students? We have a well supported and then we want to hang on to those students as an cuties. How do we ensure this imported into leadership Etc? So it really really focused my mind around professional Learning and Development and how it made a difference and how we could improve it because I became a head teacher in the last recruitment and retention. Some crisis and that's absolutely where I learned to grow our own much more than assume that will always always find what we're looking for outside of the school. You want a balance, but if you've got a good school culture, I believe part of that got to be really successful professional Learning and Development for colleagues and the school team, so That that was another success but it was a clear lesson that it helped me to learn. Yeah, you make some some really powerful points there. I think first of all your You reference to the fact that often is schools. We find it really difficult and finding ourselves Champion the work that we do and yet it's phenomenal the impact that schools have across the country. You know, I think we probably need to talk to them that what the work that we do. I know that you were heavily involved with the Charter College of teaching and part of that and they malleson peacocks mission is to make sure that we talked up the profession and I couldn't agree more. I think you also though draw upon the power of culture being driven by having faith in your team and really celebrating the strength. It reminds me of an appreciative inquiry approach actually Uncle development. Absolutely and just how powerful. That is two people. Let's focus on what's working really? Well rather than always entering the discourse and what we're not doing very well. Well, let's focus on what's working. Well in what area so that we can move that knowledge around the organization and I think that's you know for schools that ought to be really intelligent organizations. I think that's where we often fall down because we're not actually using we're not utilizing and harnessing. Officials say the success and the Improvement that are within individual parts of the school order across the multi-academy trust. For example. Yeah, absolutely where the bright spots. However we find them. How do we give them the tools to help them to keep getting better? And how do we grow that impact? Absolutely. So many listeners will obviously be really familiar with the work that you've been with women are dead. But let's just focus He's a lot more closely on your work with professional Learning and Development, which you just touched upon upon now to tell us a little bit more about your philosophy for professional development and in particular why so many schools find it such a challenge to get white one of my basic philosophy around professional Learning and Development is that it's absolutely key and Central to the work that any leader does in whatever team in which they work. and it's always fascinating that in a time of budget cuts as were in now one of the first things that often gets cut is the put the budget for professional Learning and Development and I just can't understand that. So My Philosophy would be that you spend as much as possible on that as in both time and money and I think time is the greater factor that I often talk in sessions that From if we spent eighty percent of our budget on the it infrastructure of the school and part of that broke with fix it immediately and we spend 75 80 percent of our budget on the staff our colleagues in the school. And yes, I feel we neglect the way to help them support and develop and improve to their full potential at our peril. So that that's my basic philosophy, but then of course comes the question about how do you do it? And how do you do it in a way that takes advantage of those opportunities rather than as you say, sometimes it not working to the extent we wanted to and I think that that is a key question. It was the work I did as a Capt advisor across London for the Department of Education and we didn't huge amount of work on that and it was a really strong Factor really strong contributory factor to some of the success of the London challenge work the Collaborative Learning that schools were doing cross all of London and then those the training and development agency where we continue to develop that work. And then it all seem to go away and at times I felt like a lone voice in The Wilderness at The Institute with the team. We had that and now it's much more of a priority but we seem to be made doing the same learning as I felt. We learned 15 years ago, and I know everything goes round in circles in education, but it does frustrate me a little bit that it's as if we're trying to Infant to wheel that's been reinvented over and over again and the must be some way of us being able to say this is what effective Learning and Development looks like this is how we do it. This is how we know what makes a difference if we can't do that in a school then I think we're in trouble. Yeah another key point there. I know I tweeted something last week around distributed leadership. Up and you made the comment that actually this is this has been this has been here for quite a while and and and how often things can round in Cycles. Why do you think we're in that groundhog day where we have cycles of different inputs. So all going to do X and now we're going to do why why is it that the the goal post moves so frequently It's like a question because of course as a new as a new teacher when I started I was one of those very bumptious new teachers who thought they were going to change the world and that teachers who have been teaching 30 years really didn't know as much as me I was absolutely one of those new teachers and what you then learn of course is that it does seem to come around and around again. I wonder if it's because we're tied to the Electoral cycle a little bit. And so the people who are responsible for Education the department for Education change a lot. So they have to therefore make their Mark and things change then I'm much more in favor of it the kind of 10-year plan or education being taken away from the politics being given to the professionals like the chant, which is one. Absolutely. One of the reasons why I'm working as vice president for the chartered College of teaching because I think that gives us the opportunity more to say. This is the profession. This is what we're trying to do. These are our goals. These are our aims and this is what success looks like and we're going to celebrate it and we're going to ensure within that that the quality of teachers and the quality of the learning that's available to them continues to improve. I think that's absolutely essential. Yeah. Okay, I couldn't agree more. I think you make a really personal. It's around tentatively government influence. And I think it's Canada is an example where they to get away from. From from the government focus and remember after the loan actually left it alone to be able to develop and improve and Thrive and then looking at sustainability. I think sustainability is a key problem in our sector because absolutely we have green shoots and then it we grow them to a certain extent and then it tends to drop off and we focus on something else. So yeah, I mean no wonder you certainly know just on that point Guster and so am I Salute my absolute motto in all the work I do in education is less is more. Yes do a lot less but do it a lot better put your time and energy into the the few things that you know will make the biggest difference for the children and the communities that you serve. I think we do we try and do far too much just do a few things, but do them a lot better. Absolutely. I think that's indicative of a Often what happens in schools in terms of professional Learning and Development. So we had often with very busy very cluttered staff meeting time tables where there's multiple things happening people are being asked to focus on a variety of different aspect. It could be subject development. It could be pedagogy and then you've obviously got safeguarding and statutory elements, you know, people are constantly juggling lung different areas all at the same time. I'm and I one of my favorite quotes from Helen said please work is is around When She interviewed some Australian Educators and one one man said that he hoped he died in set training because the transition between lines and debt would be seen them and I think that's really really powerful because it's summarizes the waist and then people feel about professional Learning and Development and that they have a school of I know you spend a long time now working with schools and leaders and particularly looking at Vision strategy and impact how would you summarize their the work that you do now? It's Vision strategy professional Learning and Development and impact because I think there's a coherent whole there. Although obviously. It depends what particular School leaders want to focus on. I'm doing some work with the school in London, for example that moment on their prey Process because it isn't connected with the professional Learning and Development cycle sufficiently. So we're looking at bringing about really quite a step change for that organization. But in doing that I will always say well what's the vision for appraisal and Learning and Development? How do they fit into your strategic aim as a school or strategic games and whenever I ask that? Question if I get told that our schools got 10 aims or 10 goals. Then I always get worried because we missing that less is more philosophy and then you've got lots of busy people in schools working on development plans and development goals and it gets to be a culture of busyness and what leaders are focusing on their knees has something happened. Has it been done. Because it being ticked off as opposed to the philosophy. I would have both of vision strategy Learning and Development and then evidencing. The impact is what are the difference you want this to make before you do any action before you get busy we're too focused on what we're doing is in education, aren't we and as soon as we think there's something to fix If we jump into the water we going to do about it rather than that appreciative enquiry approaches. What's the issue? What's working? Well, what do we need to know about it? And of course that means you're going to have a more evidence informed approach. We miss the evidence bit and I find it fascinating at the moment that people are trying to put the evidence but back in but they're doing that without really I think some of the Improvement processes in school, which is we are not going to do a single thing about this to absolutely clear what we want it to look like when it's happening and what it looks like now and you and I know is we've worked on this together, but that sounds so easy doesn't it and so obvious and yet it's quite It difficult to put into practice because people want to rush into action all of the time and and if you do that, you can only then talk about the impact of things you've done. You can only say yes. I had 12 teachers came to do this session or 30 students. Games from this initiative experience this initiative that that's not impact. That's just reach or things you did. Yeah, and I'm not interested in that. I want to know whether it's your vision or your strategy or Learning and Development. I want to know what do you want it to do what difference do you want it to make and I worked at can I keep going? The minute I worrying I'm not hungry. I'm just going to anyway, I've done some wonderful work Wonderful in the sense. It was just joyous to do so wonderful work with a school in London again where they wanted to clarify their Vision, but they didn't really know the best way to do it and they asked me to help and I said I could only help if that was basically the main thing that we're going to focus on the school for the year as opposed to it being something they did on top of everything and we worked for a year on that from middle leaders to see me a leaders mid leaders involve students involved their teams win both Governors and I went back a few weeks ago for To make them a year later from when we started their vision is now three simple words interestingly three C's. I have three things supposed to women. There's four teams and each team is absolutely focused on the development plan. That is about this is where we are. Now. This is what we're doing and they are energized by it a year ago. They Just felt they were ticking boxes. Now. They feel learn in control. They're responsible. They trusted and they are absolutely no with their team to difference. They want to make and that's just been joyous absolutely joyous work. So I think all of that work is all part of the same. Development within the school and unfortunately, I think sometimes all of those parts are divided up too much and not seen as a natural influence one on the other from Vision to strategy to learning to new practice and then to evidencing the success it is that simple and yet it's that hard to put into practice Yeah, I think. Thank you. Once again, some key takeaways for me. So the first the first thing is when you talk about the fact that we are very very much obsessed with being busy doing lots of things identifying lots of areas that need Improvement and then really focusing on those what then happened is that it's driven by compliance and accountability rather than having that buy-in and that Collective Endeavor to support the Improvement. Assess the way you talk also reminds me of the education down at foundations implementation guide which was recently updated, especially looking at the Explorer stage and taking that type of move down the difference that you want to make two before we even get going really understanding business as usual really understanding what's happening in individual classrooms, and it makes me think of the work of busy and Robinson as well and her focus on drilling into people's theories of action. And so that you can understand the beliefs and the values of the practice that you're trying to then change and it becomes something that you do with people as opposed to it than to and I know when we work together spending a long time on that Baseline is absolutely Keys it and and I think you're right and say it is it is actually a relatively straightforward process. But one that we nevertheless huge that compliment and and I Our conversations where it it felt hard to establish the Baseline because in a way people didn't really know what was actually happening now in an objective way. We rushed people rush to judgment this out of this isn't happening in this isn't happening which is a judgment. But if you can actually just paint it, you know, can we objectively say this is what's happening in this classroom for that student. And for that student and that student and we want it to look like this for those students and for those teachers and it was a tough process wasn't it? It was yeah and one that you don't ever really finish I suppose because and it's one where again it's tightly aligned to culture because it and I think Improvement is a keep me alive to culture they're intrinsically linked. And I think because it is such a detailed process. We often only ever drill into it at the very surface level and it requires so much more thought and conversation professional conversations about maybe at the heart of the process and I do like to see the hashtag on Twitter times, but that I conned a while ago which is and that which has been turned into a #which is improved not prove. Yeah, we shouldn't be into the proving business at all. We should be just focused on Improvement and celebration of success if we can turn it to this is the next part of our vision and strategy. This is what success looks like here. We've achieved the success. What do we do now? It should be that kind of a conversation rather than feeling a need to Please visit to people in our school or to people outside the school or to policymakers Etc should be much more about celebrating success. But to do that, you've got to know what that success look like to know that it's something that has improved that he has tagged improve not prove. Yeah, absolutely. Love it. Okay. Well it wouldn't be right for me to have a conversation with you. This evening. If I didn't mention women are now you had a phenomenal couple of years and the the book has been hugely successful. Not only making an impact nationally, but you've also now got International women Ed Network which you know, you must be incredibly proud of as we're about to embark on a brand new year what's in store for women are dead and the community. Well, thank you for those kind words around Bloom there. It's still astonishes those of us working at the center women and as it were exactly what is being achieved and it's that perfect example of trust vision and strategy and trusted that way because what gets achieve now is is pushed and organized and sorted by the 27 networks. We do have around the world, which is just Bonkers because all we ever wanted to do is when we started at the southern of Those who started it was give women a voice on Twitter. Yes only then that to do but but now I think our ambition has certainly grown and now it's to give women a voice in global education and interestingly the Global Gender Gap just came out this week from the world education forum, and there's still a lot of work. To do in it, but obviously that focuses on the global position of women and interestingly is very much reflected by the education sector in most Global countries as well. So we want to keep growing globally is a key part of our strategy for this year for 2020. We want to make a difference in very some quite specific campaigns that we focused on right from the beginning. So we absolutely want to see more women being represented in the leadership roles within education organization. We want to tackle the gender pay Gap because we'll have the third set of gender pay Gap reports in the UK coming out and I just found out that In Spain, they have a gender pay Gap report also, so we want to campaign for all organizations globally to have a gender pay Gap report and a very live campaign at the moment that we will definitely continue working on in 2020 is to support. A wide range of practices around flexible working for schools. Yeah, because it's cool. You talked earlier about education being sustainable and it clearly isn't sustainable at the moment for the people who work in education and flexible working isn't just part-time. There can be all kinds of fixes and hacks that can be made to the work. within the school and we're delighted to be working in partnership with the Charter College of teaching ASCO naht Flex teach Talent return to teach all of these other organizations who all got case studies of flexible working, but where they're not visible enough takes me back a little to what I said is a headteacher, you know, lots of people working away in their Parts but actually nobody knows what the real success looks like. Yeah, but we're focusing on the flexible working. We're focusing on the benefits of it for the individuals the organization itself and importantly for the students for very short case studies hosted on the chart at College website focused solely on the benefits of flexible working practices, and we'll just keep adding. To those case studies as people keep giving those more so go three life campaigns We're Going Global and an internal question for us is how do we cope with all of that? Because we're all volunteers at weaning all do it on top of our day job and we've got to figure out a way for our own growth to be sustainable. So we have a new website finally, which we think is helping. And I'm going to new learning my way around it. I've never done anything like that before so 10% braver and figuring out all the backend of the website to make it work properly. But we really want to make connections in this year. Continue our strategy of connecting with more women in education who aren't on Twitter because that's the vast majority. So also this year will be the Cason of our second book with the working title for the first book was 10% braver inspiring women to lead education and the second book working title at the moment is called being 10% braver 25 26 stories of individual women under times when they made a choice to be 10% braver and why they made those choices how that affected them and what difference it made for them. So we're in the editing process of that at the moment, which is really really wonderful to read these stories. So that's quite a bit to be getting on with this year. And I'm not going to say more than got your hands full and 40 takeaways. Once again, I think Make reference to globally the impact of the gender pay Gap. It's not something that's just unique to our country. This is love. This is a global issue and one that women are to have have really worked hard to shine a light on within our sector. I think you you also make the point that flexible working is incredibly important for sustainability. Unfortunately the most be working for ambition Institute and I have to say I'm incredibly impressed with the way with the flexibility and the approach to working and I've often thought to myself if this is if schools have adopted similar strategies. I genuinely believe we get so much more from people because it's that investment in them as a whole. You know, we've all got different circumstances and situations and life is very different now from 50 years ago. And so I think it's important that we move with the times and I know there was a huge Twitter storm recently when a Comments were captured about flexible working and I think unfortunately whilst Twitter is a really powerful tool for good as we both know and it can also be quite a difficult Community to operate in and so, you know, not so much not just not too sure and women and our communities joyous on my timeline is one day be a green it comes down to creating a timeline doesn't it? But I think the other the other key. Takeaway for me is you reference to moving outside of Twitter though? Because I think it's easy for us to forget that there are so many hundreds of thousands of people teachers Educators who don't use Twitter who are probably doing apps who will definitely be doing phenomenal work and so many people that we can learn from and I'm particularly interested in that so it sounds like a very exciting year ahead. And yes, you're right. You're all volunteers doing this on top of really busy day job. And yeah, it's absolutely admirable just to just to sort of pick up another another point. Then that relates to women are Dora. See we have the Pisa results that were released recently. And so UK girls in particular. They scored quite lonely in terms of resilience. I just be really interested in your thoughts on that. Well, it's really worrying. Isn't it? Very worrying. I think girls. Our particular issue have particular issues when the curriculum and the ethos of the schools are focused in an Olaf unhealthy way on exams and results and outcomes and I I don't want anybody to take away from that. That's not something I would focused on I was as hard-nosed a second you had to teachers you get because the outcome of the exams for those students affect their life chances, but it's got to be about more than that because otherwise a whole generation of girls believe that that's all they're worth that that they only worth whatever. Number is on the end of the grade at the end of the two years and therefore the whole perfectionist issue for girls and women kicks in at a very young age that they've just got to keep working and working and working and they're going to fail unless they're not perfect and that that is a worry for individual girls now and I would certainly exhort all schools to just think about that. There's a lot of student voice mechanisms in schools now, so it would be better if Colleagues in school found that out about their girls rather than because the Pisa results of told us that yeah. Well we need to be asking the girls and the boys, you know what's going on with them in education at the moment and what can the school do to help and of course involve parents in their conversation? Yeah. Yeah because as more aware PP the results A useful reflection on what's happening, but they certainly don't tell the whole story. I can't help but wonder the impact of social media as well and perhaps the level of judgment that girls often feel which could be a contributing factor, but you're right in saying we can make lots of assumptions but the key thing is actually having those conversations and purchased a vehicle driving student voice at the heart of any school and not know who you didn't obviously with the parents. As well. It's that Community voice. Absolutely key. Okay. Well, I feel that you covered so many different areas for us this evening. It's been really interesting listening to you talk about your career and some of the highlights from the lessons that you've learned and obviously things that you're going to be focusing on with the Charter College and also with women Ed's, the quality of any interview is always based on the questions that are asked so I'd be really interested knowing your Also know that you've done what question do you think I should have asked you this evening? Who? Allow an easy one. I think maybe the question you could have asked me. Is why I went into education. What why why what is it that drives me to do this because I could stop working if I wanted to and I don't want to so what is it that drives me to do it. So we'll slip Simon sinek and his head and start with Y. And in fact we'll end with wide are so just really succinctly what is it that motivates you to still do what? What you're doing to carry on not to stop. I've spoken a TED talk Nora Jed over a year ago, and I basically answered it done which was I'm driven by something if it isn't, right. if I can see something that is morally wrong is inequitable isn't fair basically than I seem to be triggered and have a need to do something about that and I think for me in education therefore, that's one of the ways in which we can ensure more fairness more equity and to do the right things as opposed to make the choices that are wrong so I'm really driven by trying to make things better put things right and its most simple way and I think education is the most powerful force by which we can all do that. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. That's a that's a really powerful impact for Lending Vivian. I'm really grateful to have been given the opportunity to speak to you tonight. And I would love it actually having the time to talk with you Catherine not snatched conversation here and there but there is been a huge privilege working with you and I feel very fortunate to have had your mentorship which continues I'm very grateful and I hope that listeners will be able to take numerous. I get to way from this conversation and take them back to their school and consider approach to culture Vision professional learning development. And and also obviously thinking about join networks such as women Ed and then obviously the huge movement which is a Charter College of teaching so lots on offer through this conversation and all that remains to be said is a huge thank you to thank for all that you continue to do for not giving up and for striving to to make a Instill make it to make things better. Thank you classroom, trying to firm much for prompting all of those thoughts of really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. Just talking to teachers podcast pedagogy. What is Phil reading this week podcast pedagogy listening to teachers? Never snapped urges talking to teachers. So this week candy podcast pedagogy section. I am not so much reading a book as living it and the book in question is Leaders with substance by Matthew Evans and as listeners will know from last week's big Revelation and I'm on the cusp of starting in a more senior role than I've previously had. So this book is timed perfectly for me, but equally and I find this will be useful for leaders at all levels particularly. There's that Looking to transition maybe into a new role. So as you know, Matthew has done a short review of the book to encourage people to have a look at it in last week's podcast. And also I'm delighted to say that in about three hours from now as I record this I'll be having a conversation with him about the book. So it's going to give you my thoughts on the book and how I've started to think about some questions to ask Matthew in this evenings podcast. So the first thing to say is this book has received a fantastic reception and as we speak, Zeke it's currently a best-seller and receiving rave reviews from a very respected people in education. Most recently Ruth Walker has put on how much she'd enjoy the book and as much as well know Ruth is a previous guest on the show and incredible intellect and if she is get a lot from this book than I would suggest that a lot of you out there would benefit from this as well. So as I mentioned that we interviewing Matthew as I record this podcast in a couple of hours, but here's some questions that the book has generated. So firstly at the start of the book Matthew describes how despite the millions of words written on the subject. He questions whether leadership is actually even a thing and very early on in the Book of Matthew makes listener question what remains of leadership and where does this kind of leave the book? So the book moves into whether or not such things as generic leadership skills and you know, we talked a lot about the sort of moves and education over the periods of time that certainly I've been involved with education. That's the last twenty years but generic leadership skills would definitely something that I as a middle leader in the early 2000s but lead were were vital to both promotion and the day-to-day ability to do the job and I like hey Matthew questions, whether they are indeed useful as moving to 2020. I also like how Matthew was backed up all of his assertions with evidence and it's got a very nice summary at the end of each chapter that talks about the key takeaways and the key evidence to back those up. I even looked at the depth of the evidence as well because as we know we can find evidence to prove most things. It's actually the quality of that evidence and the robust nature of that as to whether people can draw conclusions from its a math you just this really really well and Matthew questions, whether we need clever leaders and asks how we lead It Best in distracting and difficult times and with the current focus and sometimes we may say Obsession on curriculum Matthew very cleverly on picks curriculum Genera system and questions whether or not school should be led by experts and the section on Vision was a real eye-opener for me again, and it seems through you know, my intensely personal lens at the moment as I mentioned in last week's podcast. I'm looking at the good or the bad of vision and Matthew section on there is really really fascinating. So I look forward to ask him about that later on. There's another section in one of the chapters about scripture and scripts and cultural memes which provides an interesting example and includes an Between a new Deputy head and a box carrying nqt in the car park. So yeah check that one out very very interesting and how much Matthew draws from sort of what seems like such a small interaction. Also Matthew discuss is one of my favorite topics, which is the dunning-kruger effect, which I feel like I'm living at the moment. So yeah, that's a very interesting section as well. And lastly Matthew looks at what is destined to be a big take away a line from this book when he discusses the development of the next generation of leaders. So he says that leader should have their finger on the pulse and not the trigger. So I thought that was a fantastic take away. As I said going to be look speaking to him later on this afternoon about this and the hotspot that podcast out in the next couple of weeks. But in the meantime, if you do want to check out this book Leaders with substance is published by John cat and is available everywhere now. Rivers Netter just talking to teachers podcast pedagogy. What is Phil reading this week podcast pedagogy listening to teachers never snapped urges talking to teachers. Swinton he's Shameless plug section and we'll start with Shameless plugs for to brew Ed events one in which I'm directly involved and one in which I am very very happy to support and hopefully depending on what is a very busy month in March might come along to listen to so the first one is Brew Ed Ozzy, which is very very popular at the moment. So as last couple of tickets available for that if people are interested in coming along and the Stellar line-up of Educators, they're people who are familiar with lead learn length, etcetera bed. It's obviously in this again and Lead learn links is a fantastic event. And I was sure that brew and Ozzy will be equally so so I'll be talking a little bit about curriculum and leading School in disadvantaged areas. If you're interested it coming along to that bread science is on the 28th of March in Liverpool and we've got lots of guests that I've worked closely with but the want to mention here is previous guest Louise Louis or presenting it and Louise is podcast was fantastic if you seen her present and I went to watch your presentation. Sent at the National Conference for research and she's fantastic presenter. So breads bread science 28th of March in Liverpool tickets via Eventbrite for that one as I mentioned every week. We've got research and double bill. So we've got research at Birmingham and research at Blackpool both in March as well. So if you have got tickets for those great if you have want to be added to the waiting list for the ball for those then again via Twitter or via the Eventbrite site for both of those we also have My fantastic new school serves your academies teach me which be on the 16th of January. So we've got lots of local Educators and people from a bit further afield will be coming along to support that and in a strange Twist of events. I will be speaking at it, but I was speaking at it on behalf of the chartered College because this is one of the Privileges of being a fellow of the chartered College. I was asked to speak at that before it was confirmed that I've now got a job at South Shore academies. So yes, that'll be an interesting sort of double edge. Presentation there. So be looking at the work of the chartered college and the importance of it to the professions. If you want to come along to that think they're our last couple of tickets available for that on the 16th of January. And if you're interested in her having me or other members of the nail has netted team come along and speak at your conferences. So anyone from the team team at the teacher development trusts or myself personally. We are now taking bookings for 2020. So if you'd like to get in touch with me via the website and that snail is Two dot u k or the teacher doesn't trust website. That's T DT trust dot-org so you can get in touch their if you would like that. So what remains to say is again. Happy New Year and back to school on Monday. Whoo, so thank you for listening to nail it matter as ever and we'll see you back in normal term mode next Friday Schnatter. Just talking to teachers talking to teachers about academic research and evidence-based. This with continuing professional development at PNA 1977 on Twitter Snapchat or just talking to teachers.
Welcome to the first Naylor's Natter of 2020. This is also our 1 year anniversary so a great opportunity to thank those of you that have been on the journey since 4th January 2019 and to welcome those of you new to the podcast. This weeks sees the introduction of our new format to sustain the podcast moving forwards. We will still have the excellent valued input from the team at TDT to kick off the show each week (once they are back in the office) . This will be followed up with our main interview which will be presented by me or our team of presenters , including Kathryn Morgan, Emma Turner (TBC) and members of team TDT (David,Maria,Bethan, Ian or Michelle) . This will increase our capacity, diversify our interviews and interviewees and hopefully make this even more interesting for you the listeners. I will be continuing with the podcast pedagogy section and I still very much welcome listeners reflections on what you are reading this year . So  if your New Years resolution is to read more , why not share this with a community of supportive educators? Podcast pedagogy I discuss my takeaways and questions from the marvellous Leaders with Substance from Matthew Evans who will be a guest on the podcast very soon Shameless plugs  BrewEd Science 28th March  BrewEd Ossy 1st February  rED Birmingham March ***sold out*** rED Blackpool March ***sold out*** I am also taking bookings to speak at conferences for 2020 so please get in touch via the website listed above    ---   Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/naylorsnatter/message 