Its Behavior bitches Hey guys, it's Lia at and Casey. Thanks for joining us as always. I'm gonna bother you to subscribe all you need to do. Well, first of all, if you do not have apple podcasts, just listen, that's all I ask. But if you have apple podcast and you fit into the app will gang please search Behavior bitches on Apple podcast click on it, press subscribe, then click 5 Stars. Again. This is low. Response effort if you really love us take a couple of seconds and reinforce the shit out of us with a few words that are kind like police if you need ideas of what to write. I'll let you know. Just get it us out. Yeah hit us up. I got lots of reinforcement in there that you could write. I have a whole list that you can just copy and paste now I'm kidding but seriously leave a review and as always you can find us on our in-state handle at Behavior. Bitches podcast I think we do need some love in that area Facebook Behavior bitches podcast, and I'm sorry but you missed the opportunity for me to leave an affirmation. If you left a comment we got in that famous that I don't know if I could do that anymore trying to set her torso or so incredibly hot. It's crazy. No just kidding really just wicked tired all the time now, so we love you guys so much. Yeah trying to keep us going. I mean if you really need an affirmation to do it, just ask I'll do it. But you follow. Okay. So now before we get into today's topic, let's talk business kind of so we plan on doing an episode every now and then throw it in the mix where we answer questions. I don't know if you ever heard of Dear Abby, but it will be deer Behavior bitches. You can submit a question for us advice some life struggle and nygma that you're dealing with. I always liked the word enigma it always it was like an SAT Word that actually resonated with me. What does it mean it means a puzzle? Oh, okay, or whatever you want and we'll answer your messages during our podcast and you can sign off in some cool way like love sperm donor or whatever your situation is. So like if you had impregnated someone he didn't want the girl to know. I mean, I'm expecting you guys to send him really juicy situations and then you would sign it off like love sperm donor something or love desperate for this guy to love me or you become like Dear Abby sign-offs guys. We've already gotten some through Instagram. I am screenshotting them and saving them to a separate folder for alley at night to make another episode on you know, all your questions that you are. So awesome for asking. Yeah, right, but wait, here we go. There's another matter of business that we want to share with you. So we love making this podcast. I mean it's consuming my life and I love it. But right now we are paying personally to make it for you, which is fine as we're starting to get followers and taking time and doing this but we aren't rich like we plan to be one day yet. So we need your help. We got what are their options? So here are your options? You can sponsor an episode for $50. I mean, that's pretty cheap to get to hear us. I would say you can make a donation with an amount you feel comfortable with on our Behavior bitches.com website or you can buy Advertisements with us. We know it's nice as F how there's no commercials here yet. But hey hashtag girl's gotta eat. So if you are interested in speaking to our audience, it will be us with our beautiful voices. I'm kidding. I know my voice is not beautiful at all. I actually when I was in choir when I was younger, I was asked not to sing just a lipstick that Acquire. So that's awesome. Great. So we won't be singing them unless you want us to it. If you want the product to sell so we'll be adding a few advertisements in I mean, we're kind of proud of ourselves for starting this less than a month ago and having sixty five hundred subscribers. Holy shit. Well as we speak, okay. Well, we're gonna know it was that much right 6430 seven to be exact. You know, we love that data. That means if you have something you want us the behavior bitches to promote. Whether it's bcba positions, yes, we know it's hard to find valuable be cba's out there. So if you're a company if you have a product you think our listeners would love a mattress that a b c d a needs to get the best night's sleep in after being beat up by a client during the day whatever it is reach out to us and within the next week, we will have an area on our website for you to pay the F up jokes. Well kind of but you guys know how the podcast World works right if you don't we're They're learning to sew that is fine. All right, let's go into a little bit about what the f we have been up to in the last week because we know you're dying to know right actually. I thought people were bored to hear about us by the way Casey but someone the other day said, I actually love that part of the episode. I think it makes us relatable and real and like we're BFFs and they are like we're going through struggles just as much as they are and it's nice. Here that I think right. I mean my life is basically perfect. Everything's going great. I mean I couldn't ask for anything else this week. I just hit a million dollars and it's great. So what's wrong with you? Oh, yep, same here. Perfect getting up. Perfect eight hours of sleep every night with no sleeping meds necessary. I am rolling in the dough over here. My student loans actually got forgiven last night. So things are looking up for me here. Yes and let the financial podcast. We had so many sponsors. Reach out to us. Just wanting to pay our bills, which is so sweet. Thank you so much. Love you to death. Hashtag blessed guys. Okay, not really real shit. So I have a question for you. Yeah, and I'm sure people listening part of my job right now is developing an outreach program. That means like getting credentialed with insurances and filling out the think it's to see a qh application when you were working for your company where you credentialed Yeah, I was but I think it actually the amount of work that it takes to do it. I worked there for a year. How long did it take you I think I brought about the final insurance. I literally think it was like two weeks before I left. She's like that's what I'm scared of also, they filled it out for me, which was nice because I wouldn't really know what to do. But so getting credential with insurance is a pain in the ass working with insurance as a pain in the ass writing reports for insurance is also a pain in the ass. And also on a personal note was somewhat health issues what insurance won't pay your bills that's also a pain in the ass like what insurance sorry side note. This is my little rant and I'm not going to insert a personal insurance provider like when they pre-approve me getting three prosthetic fingers and then when push came to shove they hate were to like out of the three. I lost them for the same reason. So I'm going to save my F-bomb, but I would like to use it and insert insurance provider, but I won't. Oh my God, that's insane. Yeah, yeah, I know that the insurance world is hard and a VA. We just have to keep pushing guys and we are a like we're at evidence-based leading treatment for autism and it is proven time and time again insurances will catch up to how awesome we are so that I don't I don't think it's a matter of insurance catching up to how awesome we are. I think it's like oh my God this profession this evidence-based treatment worked, but holy crap, they need a lot of Where's we are paying a shit ton out of pocket. So we're going to try screw them in every way we can that's personally how I feel about insurance. Yes, like, you know, I also I didn't really sleep. Well last night so expect me to be real real today. Okay, I think someone texts posted in one of our things that when do you sleep or window like with all with the teaching classes with the podcasting with working with everything? It's a hashtag hustle guys. And today we are tired, but We are here because we love you. Okay, and I'm sure you could see me today as to why I use that flower filter on Instagram. Yeah, thank you so much. I mean what I look like right now if you could see through here all the spots I get from Scleroderma. Oh, yeah, I can see. Yeah, it's okay girl. You're so beautiful. All right, so we're also going to continue on with our reinforcing review of the day. So we are taking a review From Apple podcast we are so grateful that you guys are leaving us good reviews. So reinforcing for our Behavior to continue, but this one is from Samantha F. And it went to put her last name for anonymity HIPAA HIPAA hashtag HIPAA. It's she says and she's so sweet. You guys literally give me life and motivation best thing to listen to if you want to learn something about a be a related understand ABA and laugh at the same ethic time. Thank you, Samantha. Ah, we pride ourselves in being able to make you guys laugh and learn laugh and learn. Yeah, we decided to do this podcast. Could we love talking but I have to say and I know everyone who's in our classes we teach is probably like okay Leon and Casey shut the f up referring to your podcast, but it's actually amazing. We're not actually doing the podcast in any order for the way that we teach to align with it, but there are certain things where I'm like actually go listen to episode 3, trust me, you will understand the difference between In mentalism and behaviorism so it just happens to work out well and hope this nicely ads or enhances your study experience. That's very true. It is I think a lot of the topics we tie into every episode and so it is beneficial to listen to all the episodes starting with the teaser all the way to this one. Alright guys. Well without further Ado, I think it's time that we we get into today's topic. Alright, so today's topic hits super close to home for me. It's also a huge problem in our society today. It is addiction people don't want to talk about it. It's considered taboo, you know, it's hid behind closed doors, but it is affecting people all over the world. It's a Epidemic and it doesn't discriminate between what type of person some people like. Oh, it's just junkies on the street. That's bullshit. Okay. It could be a house Mom. It could be you know, in this case we have my sister here. She's a gorgeous only 30. Yeah 30 years old and she you know has a great story to tell us it's a sensitive topic, but we are here to also provide support. I'm going to shout out some hotlines that You can go to a few may need to get help yourself or help for other people. So there's groups called Alcohol Anonymous Narcotics Anonymous allanon, which is helpful for people maybe a sibling or friend or a parent of somebody who has an addiction. Also. There's the national hotline for Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services. The number is 1-866-376-8255 say And they're open 24/7 their English and Spanish. They're super confidential and a little hashtag empiricism fact in 2018. They received 68,000 calls per month. That's I'm sorry to be a little bit exact Casey but it's sixty eight thousand six hundred eighty three, you know, we don't round up and you know, I you know, I didn't say that was because I didn't know how to say it as a number. I was like wondering why you're saying it I was like I was Like Casey Casey the comma means thousand you like I played that off like a stick. Alright. Anyways, guys wow master's degree. Thank you Masters. What? I know National drug helpline is another one. It's one eight hundred six, three, three, three, two, three nine. Awesome. It's actually one eight eight eight six. Three three, three, two, three, nine Lord. Help us Lord. Help us. I mean, it just shows how we work. I'm okay. I'm glad that you got your like my eyes. It's because my lines not printed and I'm reading on my computer. Anyway, I'm telling you it's a huge difference. I'll learn that behavior next time also guys, we are not Professionals in any way when it comes to this so don't use us in place of seeking professional help, please that's why we're giving you these resources and we hope that if you do need some help or help for someone, you know that you will use the resources totally. Alright, so when people hear the word Addiction they immediately think of substance abuse but people could be addicted to a variety of self-reinforcing behaviors. It constantly checking your phone checking social media exercising. I wish that was a little bit more of an exercise. I mean an issue that yeah God sex food abusive relationships God. I'm tired today, by the way. I'm not trying to get it to further talk about this topic, but I Feel like I lately have been addicted to checking social media. I'm just saying like between same here, but getting between the behavior bitches podcast Instagram Behavior bitches podcast Facebook Behavior bitches email so study notes a via email study notes a be a resource share study notes 88 new bcba group we started and but all the emails I literally feel like my brain is fried. So I need to insert some self-care there. But anyways, all the things you could be. Did to exercising sex food abusive relationships gambling Etc. So let's go into a little background on addiction and tie in some Behavior principles before we introduce our amazing guest. So I did some research and although addictive behaviors may be influenced by genetic environmental and behavioral factors addictive behaviors are learned hashtag operant behaviors, and they are reinforced by the effects of Behavioral choices. This made me think of hashtag matching. A lot right Behavior goes our reinforcement flows where it feels good using a drug or whatever you're doing that feels good. That's what your behavior is going to flow according to the National Institute of drug abuse for teens children of parents with addiction problems are at increased risk of addiction themselves because they are learning the same behaviors guys. When you see a behavior you are learning that behavior so a huge thing we need to do to make new pair. Asians that don't reinforce The Addictive behaviors is we need to use a dra now if you're listening and you're in the field era is differential reinforcement of alternative behaviors, so we want to find replacement behaviors for these drugs or for the drug use which we know is difficult, but we will get further into that but let's get into our guest. I'm so so so excited Our Guest is here today, and I'm so happy to meet someone who's connected to you Casey. And I'm sorry that this is the topic that we have to bring someone on for but I'm also so thankful because this is not a joke and this is something that way more people than you or I or anyone listening realizes go through. I mean I kind of know because I do pride myself on and I probably don't even know I pride myself on being an avid intervention listener hence the music that must have been inserted earlier but today Gas is actually Casey's fabulous and brave sister who's first-hand experience with addiction and she's ready to tell all of you her story her journey the good and the bad the ugly the ugly and everything in between so that maybe she can save one person listening. I know that speaking to Casey before the podcast. She had mentioned that her sister Kaitlyn who's here was a little nervous to do it but excited with the thought of if I could save one. And by doing this podcast, I know I've helped one person. So thank you so much for coming. And so we ought and I are going to jump in and interrupt her where it's appropriate. Ask her some questions and insert some behavioral principles at work that we see as applied Behavioral Analyst, and we're going to try to shred some topic or some light on this very serious and hard to talk about topic. So we'll get into some facts later, but I think right now I just want to say to my sister Caitlin. Thank you for Being here firstly thank you for having me. You are a badass for coming out and telling your story to thousands. Yeah, that's right. We have that many listeners. Hope it's more soon. Just kidding. I am so proud of you as your sister. I know that you were nervous, but also excited to come talk about this because you have a very personal journey to share. So let's start into some questions and See how it goes. Okay, and I am here to support you. I got your back. We have our large iced coffee. We're holding each other's yeah, and yeah, by the way again, thank you so much for coming. Literally you doing an episode like this. I could tell you just from our abuse episode we had so many people reach out and say wow, like thank you so much for talking about gas lighting or thank you so much for talking about this is Thing that I didn't know that other people were experiencing or I mean, I'm sure you know, some people might be dealing with this with a sibling or something and they feel embarrassed like oh, well, this makes me like a lower caliber which is not true at all and I could even tell you how I relate in some sense not at all to the degree, but I'm just saying that this could happen to anyone. This is someone who has their shit together. This is a lawyer. This is a doctor that says no one who's beneath any Anyone else? So I urge you to listen with entirety, please stop whatever you're doing. If you're driving pull over well getting your tissues out. Yeah. No, it's fine. All right. So let's start Kate. Let's start from the beginning. Okay and talk to me about maybe we kind of had this similar childhood, but maybe things that were different than I didn't experience. Like can you remember things from your childhood that may have been an antecedent event a setting event, too? Or Journey. Oh most definitely we did have the same we grew up in the same home. But Casey was always off and running. Oh nothing's changed. And so I was the one who was attached to my mom's hip and saw the first hint violent abuse from one of her husband's and seeing the drug her drug use firsthand as well. It was more she tried to hide it but I think that a lot of my things in my childhood definitely made me feel the need to be numb. So do you would you think of it as like you were escaping like a verse of negative feelings that you had or memories most? Definitely. I think that's why everybody is you know, that does drugs has some type of reason why they want to be numb why they want to escape reality because of you know trauma that has happened in her childhood or even in their adulthood. So get it as quickly. Sorry just because I as I'm going to try be the outside Source because I know you know some of it going on Casey but are you saying your mom had an addiction issue as long as you can remember? Yes and same with our fathers. Yeah, both of our parents. Okay. So this is something that you saw. Yeah, and it was like really like a learned behavior. Right? And like I had mentioned previously guys that children of addicts are more likely to become. X themselves because it's something that they've learned over the years and it's maybe something all that they know and typically when you have drug abuse in the home you also are going to have violence and actually thing called the Asus and it's like a scoring on like a aversive events in your childhood that can you can you know was a parent incarcerated were your parents divorced and you're more likelihood to engage in those things. Behaviors Escape maintained, you know addictive behaviors and when you grow up seeing an adult do the same thing that escaping in that numbing you learn that behavior as well as a something that is normal. That isn't normal. But you kind of learn those same behaviors as a know. What can I do if this happens and I want to not think about it or I want to run away from it. If you can't physically run away from it, you're 90% going to go to drugs or anything else. Jim sex gambling anything right totally and I think that I mean I'm just gonna say how strong a parent modeling goes in terms of learned behaviors. Like recently. I'm sure you guys know that I got this little French Bulldog Pavlov when I got him he was literally the size of like half my shoe size. I'm a size 8 and 1/2 so maybe like a size 4 and I went to someone a friend of mines house who's a mom and her kids were like freaking out like as if and I'm like what like this mom had modeled this behavior and this Obviously not related to drugs but I'm just saying these kids who like this tiny animal they had modeled their parents Behavior even like about like fear of a dog, right? And the dog was literally the size of like a rabbit a small rabbit. So yeah, so I mean this just goes and does coping mechanisms that they see from their parents and Casey when we had the podcast the other day, like I realized a lot of things my dad was saying about bit like money have a deal with that like I've seen these things modeled from a young age, right? So it was like, oh, yeah. Okay. This is what I saw a standard and not knowing a difference and so a lot of people who have been through abuse or drugs. You don't know anything different. No, you don't and your behavior is almost being shaped, you know, a hundred percent in our childhood. It was great. Yeah. I mean we're in again. I want to shut up my mom. We love you so much. She did the best with what she had like her skills, and she was amazing a single mom shoutouts to all the single moms out there. Addiction again, it doesn't discriminate and she had childhood childhood aversive events that led to her abuse. And that's a cycle. You know what I mean? And then it continued to you know her children. Luckily. I mean, I'm sure I'm addicted to many bike like exercise being perfect. Like I like my glass of wine after work or my whiskey soda, but I was gonna I thought it was a vodka soda. That's what I well it's yeah. Yeah, it can be either or I was luckily. I didn't have the experience like the very reverse of experience like childhood trauma that Caitlin will talk about who's older who's older by the way me the Casey controlling one control. Yeah. I'm obsessively controlling. So that is not a good thing either but I had to like always make sure everything was you know, perfect and you know, too Take care of my sister and I was always at this anxious little like worrywarts that I still continue to be and try to practice some skills, but and I don't want to get I don't want to like push anything too far so you could always just tell me likely. Ah shut the hell up. Nothing is off-limits. I told her that what was yeah. I just tell people like I told Casey yesterday. She's like, I think I need to like start working on my real job a little bit more liad and I'm like, okay, just tell me to f off that's fine boundaries. Yeah working on it. I don't think Either of us have really good ones. But so if I say do you feel like there was maybe one triggering event in particular? I mean, I know it was Model Behavior, but I don't know and you might be likely out you ignorant piece of shit. You just watch intervention. You don't know anything but I feel like based on the intervention that I do want and when I say watch intervention, I mean I've watched like every season like binge-watch. Yeah. Yeah, and it seems like and I'm not saying this is what you want to do, but was there something I saw a lot of people there was a consistent theme I've seen is either like sexual abuse of some sort. I don't know if that's always an event. Like was there some kind of an exciting event in particular that then Further that like so something went on and then it then you use behaviors that you had seen modeled before was there something in particular most definitely and I was going to talk about that when I was 13. I lost my virginity when I was raped at a party. So that was a huge underlying if anything had showed me just a throw me right into the throes of addiction. I think from then on I have been indicted ever since. Yeah, that's a horrible horrible thing. That's that's their terrible, but It seems like it's obviously so it's not just me being like ignorant watching intervention. It is a consistent theme. I mean not the only thing obviously but yeah, I think it's a buildup of a lot of things but when something that traumatic happens at such a young age and you have seen these behaviors and you've seen what to do when these things happen and you don't have the right coping skills or support center support system. That's what you tend to go to or resources, like not everyone can afford to send their kid to the all these like Rehabilitation or therapy centers. I mean I said, you got a single mom. So these are all also variables that play into this. So I think that also led to like your mental health disorders. So what were you diagnosed with anxiety ADHD PTSD bipolar? Yep, and that's like, you know, if you don't have the insurance or the money to go to like proper therapy, they Prescribed you all these pills and you know, I'm insurance companies and doctors are you know, so prescribed happy like you go in and it's like there's could be such a simple therapeutic like way to deal with the issues that you're having a just prescribe pills. Yeah. It's like hearing a pill Mill up. I mean don't get me wrong. I am like if you saw my I mean I have bragged about my pill box before on the study notes Instagram just because I was so proud of my organization method. I mean, I was on lots of pills even before I I want all these lupus stuff, but right but like what I look at it, but I also like when we talk about and behavior we talked about doing things in combination are like, okay, if you're using punishment, you need to make sure you're reinforcing something else with it. So like I was on these pills, but I also came from a side where my family was able to put me in the right support system. So like you didn't have that so you had to find that out somewhere else like you needed to address those issues elsewhere. R so it seems like a few variables need to be in line, right and I think when you talk about the motivating operation, right so for my sister let her tell you but when she first started, you know her, you know drug addiction. How old were you when you first tried drugs? Eleven eleven eleven when I was first prescribed painkillers from an operation in what was well Henry team or your ovaries. My appendix was when I was 10 and then my wow those when I was 12 and then so you're the motivation there is that you're in pain, right? And the taking of the prescription drugs make you feel bad that you're prescribed by a doctor so you don't think that it's you know, It's not a bad thing. I'm not going to they don't tell you that you could become addicted to it like that then they don't and so her motivation was to remove the pain. It was right negatively reinforced. All right, so removing something removing the pain and reinforcement because you're increasing the future frequency that that's what you do when you're in pain exactly and that's exactly what it was when even my periods having endometriosis. Is every month I was on I was prescribed Percocet at from 9 10 years old on so we're talking like 2015 20 years of being prescribed something. It's just sad to me. Sorry to interrupt but like I'm just like makes me so effing mad that like someone who's going through like pain like so you had a lot of childhood, you know with your endometrial to endometriosis, which I witnessed you would projectile vomit every Month you were so sick your your operation for your appendix blah blah, but like it's like not fair that just because you had you know, painful stuff that you now are prescribed these like highly Adept highly addictive as a child pain meds were I was I didn't have any medical medical issues growing up. So I never was prescribing it there. So I wonder what would happen if I had been if I had a taste of what she had a taste them. I've never tasted any of that stuff like taste. By meaning taking it but like so fast forward a little bit can tell us about as so you say as a kid. You were prescribed those pain meds and then did that turn to like more recreational. Yeah. It didn't I can't remember even being in high school and taking those pain meds ever really withdrawing from them. I just always be always being on them or they were drawn me not realizing the gravity of it of how much your body needs these. Hmm. I don't ever remember going through any of that. I don't know if it's because I was consistently taking 80-milligram oxycottons a day two or three times a day or and then I got prescribed with my back pain when I was 20 right after I write before I had my son and they had me on oxycodone and oxycontin and Fentanyl patches in Morphine pills my insurance would not allow the Oxy Cotton with oxycodone. So they made me try the fentanyl patch and the morphine pills before they would pay for the Oxycontin which Fentanyl patches is for people who have cancer. I've had them before. Yeah. I was 20 21 years old being prescribed things that are more addictive than what I was actually on and like so wait. This also okay at someone with a chronic illness who is so it's also a fine line. So it's a matter of When you're an agonizing pain, let's just talk about ammos and the moment. Okay, so Mo remember that means like how valuable consequence a reinforcer is to you in that moment get it mo men. So as someone who has lupus and thank God knock on wood. Ends up in the hospital quite a bit when I go in there and I am in excruciating pain. I'm talking about pain where I'm like, I mean, I'd let's say it my fingers were coming off right and that moment there is nothing more valuable to me than I go in there and I'm like get me Dilaudid now like now and I am counting down the seconds till I could get it. So in one sense, it's like that thing is so valuable to you in that moment. And so the doctor is doing what they can to help but Also, I mean you also need someone educated along the way to be like, okay, this is not going to happen. This is dangerous and I was telling how can a case we always talk before the episodes and and I am above the day. Yeah. Okay, I get it. I'm coming down you can't and so what for so my typical regimen is it I go into the hospital the flare up. I'm typically like highly dehydrated that point it turned into me like Ting and Daya ring everywhere and like can't move can't get my shirt off can't do anything like screaming in pain and I'm like, okay I need fluids into lot that now right immediately. Yeah. And in that moment that is all that is valuable to me. It is now it wanders your behavior, right? Your behavior is gonna do whatever I need to do right? It's gonna it's gonna have an evocative effect on behavior in terms of make me do whatever I need to do to get it. So what it's like to be on here. Lynn that's exactly so I was telling Casey and I know we're gonna get into like the fact that you've recently been to the hospital something for your tooth. And so I mean at one thing I would be like well a few doctors like, how are you not giving me these meds right now and and yes, I have gone into the hospital times now where I will be in a different city like New York or something visiting my sister and I end up in the hospital with a flare up and here I am this young adult who might look fine on the outside. So I immediately they're like, nope. Sorry. We're going to give you Tylenol and I'm like no no no Fu I need to lauded. Now. I know as soon as you say it like that. It's like okay. She's an addict thinking Behavior. Yeah, right. So before they know it, I mean, would you take that little seeking Behavior? Yeah. So I've never heard that pill seeking behaviors guys. Guess what they know. So by the way, it's also shaped my behavior. I know how to go in now and how to ask but I mean I since my fingers came off I was telling Casey yesterday. I think it My situation a little bit because it's like no. No, I really am sick. Like I need to see an observable Behavior permanent product right here. My fingers came off. So this is obviously a legit thing but I it's shaped my behavior in a sense of like knowing how to ask. I like. So I like to go to the hospital where I know they have all my medical records like this girl has a real thing, but if I'm in another place, it's like all right this young adult wants drugs. There's an opiate epidemic and so for it. Yes, and and it It almost feels it increases the value of that reinforcer even more. It's like I achieved something. I got it. Yes. Mmm Burr seeing our dad in the hospital and he was really I mean like super super super sick and so many surgeries and open wounds and they were pursuing, you know, giving him Dilaudid every four hours and you know, it started becoming not enough and then his behavior would be yelling at the nurses getting angry, you know. It seemed like it was it was just a never-ending cycle is that he'd get his meds. He'd be happy and high and like fun to be around and then as it started wearing off he would it was almost like he was already entering that withdrawal phase and then of course they send you home and don't give you anything and it's like for three months you were just on that and then you're going to seek other behaviors. I think that brings us into asking Kaitlyn. So what you were prescribed all these pills, right? Did they just like stop prescribing you and what happened? What was it like setting event for why you turn to your drug of choice with his heroin right? Be real and honest here because that's what we do at the behavior bitches podcast. Yes, so I was on these painkillers for maybe three years and when I got taken off of them for having something in my system in one of my urine test for having something in my system that they were prescribing. I think that it was getting to the point in this whole epidemic where they were trying to pull back. They are realizing that a lot of these people have these problems and this addiction because of the prescribing happy that the prescribers get when they're like, oh, here's this this and there you are on what Oxycontin oxycodone 30 milligram oxycodones three times a day in 20 milligram oxycottons twice a day. And so when did that ever stop working for you? Oh, yeah. Yeah, because like my sister said it gets to the point where your body needs more just like anything that you take your body gets immune to it and you need more in need more it would bet you waited to it. Yeah habituated to it. So it started off with you know, 5 milligram Percocets to tends to 15 to 30 S2. Then needing the Oxy Cotton which is a longer lasting. It's not and your doctor was like just like yeah prescribed prescribed prescribed for three years and then like can saying it you know, they Realizing that people are becoming addicted to this and then they start what do they do? They just started like reeling it in like okay. I had muscle relaxers cyclobenzaprine in my system and that was enough for them when they prescribe that to me to begin with. So, I mean, it was a blessing in disguise, but when it's only tested, uh, sorry explain these people they tested your urine to in order for you to keep getting prescribed the pills you Ron and you had taking some taken something that wasn't currently prescribed and it was in your system. So then they just took you off completely. Yes, like cold turkey like cold turkey. No. Oh, no. They tried to give me Extinction. Yeah, they tried to give me clonidine which is a blood pressure medication in the anti-diarrhea medicine, but that's all under the withdrawal medications that they would give out. But that does not when you're on such a high amount of pills like that long holder that I just I just want to throw something in here for anyone being an asshole in judging the situation. Has let's be real we know when you talk about something like this people judge that. This could be anyone. Okay, like I'm just like I don't know. I like to think that you guys like think I'm cool. Mike have my shit together, which I don't know. Maybe you don't and I'm just like tooting my own horn, but when I was going through these different things in my finger, I was on a drip like every 10 minutes it was on a fixed interval of 10. I was able to push a button for this trip when I would be out of the hospital. I had Dilaudid tablets to take every two hours and a fentanyl patch on on top of that. Okay like and then I wasn't making it to the two hours anymore. And I would just scream on top of my lungs. My parents didn't know what to do. They were like worried at a certain point and like the fact right now that I am it's not about like oh this person has willpower. This one doesn't I was lucky that like one doctor saw me at some point in the hospital and was like, alright, this big enough is enough yet. Like they came to talk to me and my fingers were coming off. It was nerve pain. No amount of delaughter anything was touching the pain because those were like like dopamine drugs, right? I think like Doping like or opioids don't touch nerves are like they took me off it but the thing is this could be anyone like, I mean, I'm just like lucky as shit that I'm not addicted to it. But this is anyone its reward these days. Like I've been reading articles of you know, some of the reasons contributing to the opiate or opioid addiction and you know, you think of like kids that go not kids teenagers. However old you are you going to get your wisdom teeth out and they prescribe you either Vicodin or Percocet or an oxy. And your you could really get by with it ibuprofen 800 honestly and there that I think that's actually now a law that they're implementing Buzz Casey. It's a hard line to draw because I could tell you when I go in with certain things. Give me a like a Tylenol 800. I'll be like lick my butt. Like literally like Kiss My Ass Like I am here like like so it's hard thing about for like a typical kid who has no problems. No hundred percent. They break their arm or something and then they're immediately prescribed this high-dose pain meds. And that's where you know, they get that taste that but there's also multiple factors playing in like look at your sister. Okay, like she was really in pain she needed this at the time but and and think about this also your Mo like meaning your background situation beforehand, right? So someone who right now like right now, I feel like thank God. I have a lot of different things going for me. But when Earn an amount of pain. You don't have those things going for you. It changes your state of mind, like nothing matters, you're in agony, whether it's emotional pain or physical pain, like for me my fingers were coming off. I'd like there's nothing valuable in my life. Like I was just lucky like seriously, like there was nothing better than those pills. That was the highlight of my day. Yeah. Well, that's where the doctors come in and where they're supposed to when you go in every month to your appointment. They have a sheet that you know, they check off that goes through your what you look like. Lee what you look you know how your emotional state is how you're dressed how you're handling yourself in all the doctors did back then. They just didn't pay attention to it. You know, I would go in and you could see that I was withdrawing I mean I would go and literally withdrawing and so I looked a mess felt a mess. You were a mess. I wasn't a complete hash tag next the lingo. Yeah, so but you know the doctors Tell you back then either that these things are so highly addictive, you know, Oxycotin never put on there. I don't wanna leave. Yeah, they knew either know they knew they knew they just guess I'm here playing Devil's Advocate. I they just didn't want to you know what I mean put that out there because once that's out there then I'll maybe people won't that's why the Pharmaceuticals are getting sued so much because of what was your let's get out a way to insurance. No, no, it's fine. But I think we want to get in. Into why you decided to turn to heroin. Um, what was that Tipping Point? Well, first of all, I swore because my dad right did heroin that I would never I mean I promised myself my whole childhood that I would never ever try heroin and probably right like maybe not too long after I had my son everybody was doing it because the pills were too expensive and you know, and when you say everyone are you talking about like bums on the Are you talking about like I'm talking about kids from rich neighborhoods kids from families who you wouldn't think would try this because it has no discrimination. You can be from the most upper class family. You can be that AKA junkie in the alley you it doesn't just you could have a perfect sister like me and lll kill you. That was just me being funny and hitting and I can't blame any of it on my parents. You know, I have to sit now in my Recovery Act to sit there and take full responsibility for why I chose to want to be numb why I chose to not deal with those traumas that happened why I chose to go this route. And I that's been a huge thing for me my sister because the whole time that I was using we were fighting arguing we didn't have this relationship. No, I would never would have had her on this podcast. Are you effing kidding me? We were like, I just I I'm a person who I tried to be compassionate and empathetic and I am at my job all day long. But trying to find that for my sister because I knew she was using was really hard and I just got really mean and that's where Al-Anon comes in guys to help you get through that as a family member of someone who's struggling with addiction. But yeah, she would lie to me lie to my face like I'd be like, you're fucking canning. That's my F-bomb. You can't even keep your eyes up in your falling down the stairs. There's you passed out on the staircase. Just I took a nap time. I don't nap on a staircase. Okay, so we make light of this because we have to we have to laugh about this now because we went through years of oh my God, I like PTSD of still, you know, like going over I'm like is she gonna still be sober like it's a fine line and families have to support and like accept and know that things that you know are going to be tough. But yeah things were horrible when because all that we do as Addicts or me. I can only speak for myself was a lies and manipulation. You know, it really ruins all the relationships that you have in life because you don't care about anything but that high you have one purpose and it is to gain access to that and we you won't know what we do to get to it. You'll do anything you'll go through anything to get through it just to get that next high with the lies. You would come up with we're hilarious thinking back on there now. I'm like looking at you like, oh I had to Take a nap. Like I just like elaborate things that were like so crazy. I was like, this is not that your mind on drugs kids. Yeah, you will come up with anything and everything to make it look like I would literally be high high and call Casey and just starts like crying and yelling and I would abuse her. Yeah. I mean it was a psycho of it was a huge cycle. But but look at that that by the way insert behavioral principle that's response generalization, right? She had one function. She wanted one thing. And by the way, when we talk about maintaining this Behavior, there's Casey remind me to come back to that what's maintaining it but when I talk about response generalization, she had one purpose, right? She wanted access to one thing. So she did whatever she needed to do and whether it was I'm sure you probably lied to get access to things you probably I don't know you tell me if I'm wrong. I watch a lot of intervention. So be likely out your tongue I told Old you like you'll steal you'll take stuff to pawn it. Like these are all functionally equivalent behaviors to doing whatever you need to do to gain access to it. Am I right? Yeah you are right. Is there can you point out one thing that you like look back in hindsight if you're feel comfortable with it and like now in hindsight that was like wow, that was an all-time low that I did this. There's a lot of those thank you so much for sharing. By the way. I know that this is I would rather be completely transparent and honest and tell my story and hopefully help somebody then to tell parts of my story or lie about certain things addiction is addiction whether it no matter what it is that you're doing. It still sucks in the stigma of it is MM is even worse so Um, I mean like yeah, like I said, there's a lot of things that I go back to that. I'm like, oh, wow. I probably shouldn't have done that. What about okay, I have one in this is kind of an elitist into the kind of major thing that happened that led you to get clean. My son most definitely what happened when dcyf got called in. They showed up at the house they came in and they they asked you know, we got first of all that I never fed. My son my God, that's what someone said. This is my son in that I was a heroin addict and I woke I actually woke my son up and had the ladies see him because at that point he was like a hundred pounds and I was like, I don't feed my son if anything he's over 50. And it means you know very well taken care of but I admitted to her like yes, I am a heroin user. You know, she was like, can you pee in a cup right now? Is it going to be clean I lied and said yes because I felt like that would give me some time to get things out of my system and then she left and had to do our investigation in a month later. She came back in took my son and had him go with his dad. Okay, we got you know where you are. Now. Look where your and Maddox is back. He's living his best life as a nine-year-old, right? Yeah, I'm Going on 30. So yeah, so that's a hard thing for her to share and for me, so we're going to take a quick woohoo reset. Here we go. Um, so yeah, so Maddox got taken from her and really when two and a half month two and a half months. He went to live with his Dad he had to switch schools, which is really, you know hard for a Kid, who's in what first grade kindergarten? Yeah, he's in first so you what did you what was your decision instead of I know a lot of people who lost her kids in continued to get high and that feeling of having him taken I couldn't breathe in. So I that means you're a good Mama. Okay, you can take a moment people in the podcast. You can just chill right? You know how hard this must be for somebody to talk about? Yeah, don't worry. Take your time. So right there. Okay. So her her losing her son, right that is gonna be a huge that was her punishment right huge Punisher that was stronger than the reinforcing principles or feeling. Of getting high. Yeah, I knew life without him was gonna be way like on my life with yeah, my life with him was better than any High me being a mom to him was wow any high so I went right away and I got into IOP which is intensive outpatient program where I had to go to classes a couple times a week for a couple hours a day and do drug test every single day. I went in there. there And that's just what I did to get clean and I found a lot of people in recovery and that's been my driving force ever since so I want to say something behaviorally really quickly to insert. First of all, thank you for sharing this and it's actually a blessing that you have your son because ultimately that could have saved your life. Right? I mean, it seems like that you so when we talk about drugs often times, I let's talk about functions of behavior. So you the As you went through something, right you went through shit, whether it was, you know, being raped or you know, like whatever it was they like the antecedent event. So at that point, I'm assuming you you could correct me if I'm wrong is probably started off with Escape, right? You wanted to escape something you weren't like the way you were feeling the same way anyone who drinks after even a long day of work right on a different scale. I mean, yeah, I have escaped maintain behaviors like all of us. Yes, absolutely. Might like my drug of choice is Klonopin. So I was prescribed that as well. So I understand that. Yeah, so whatever so I'm assuming it started with escape. And by the way guys Behavior could be months multiple e maintained. Okay, so it started with Escape now. It seems until if I'm right. Well, well drugs. We actually I mean there's research on them. I like I mean, it's not my total background but there is some addictive effect. I mean there is something that it actually does to your brain. It's not like your which is it really is it is like the consequences like the reinforcing mechanism associated with the behavior. The pleasure centers have been stimulated by that drug like the dopamine serotonin. I don't really know exactly all have them anymore. Right, so it's it's right. So it was initially a skate maintained which I'm sure that continue to be something because you're like, oh wait this worked. I actually was able to escape it for a little and my body needed it my bed. Then it took on exactly as Caitlin saying then it took on a automatic or sensory component of function of Behavior. Now her body actually needed there were some biological need right and we R this when we see some behaviors that don't have the typical Escape attention or tangible, I mean it probably also did have a tangible right you engage in these behaviors to get access to a tangible item. So drugs has like there are so many functions of that behavior and drugs think about that as the ultimate reinforcer. I mean that is why people are addicted to find something to compete with the rien forcing. You of drugs. It's so hard. I mean the hardest to treat for sure the hardest it's like oh, okay. Why don't you go start? Yeah yoga crocheting like yeah, right kiss my ass. That is not. Hmm, and I don't know tell me if I'm right at all and it might not be to the same level but as someone who has quite a bit of experience of going to the hospital for a Dilaudid. I know that that tell me if the Ang is similar. I whenever I go there I'm like, this is how someone who's addicted to heroin must feel I wait for that second for that needle to get in there. Right? Like I'm all anxious until they could get the IV in my arm because I hate needles more than anything. But when I see that container or that little vile vile of the Dilaudid, I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God, it's coming. It's coming when they put it in and I'm like put it in fast put it in fast. I really want to feel it because I don't like it when they like mix it with like the fluid. I'm like, I really want to feel Like I'm an Agony right now like and then they put it in and suddenly you get this feeling like you're gonna like throw up you get nauseous for like a hot second and then it's this warmth that comes over your whole body. You're like did I just pee my pants? I can't tell because and you don't feel anything you are numb is that exactly I couldn't describe it any better. That's exactly what it is. Okay, so that feeling I wanted to throw up and wanting to pee your pants. I know it sounds sound the initial like it's this nausea, right? You're like your head feels like it's gonna explode in that one second, but it makes it that much better because it's like this warmth and it's like when I go in I'm telling you I'm in a type of pain like I've been in hospital room screaming like cut my hands off. I don't need them anymore. I'm in so much pain like I don't need these fingers. I don't need my hands. Actually. I have a question for you. Okay? Yeah. Why do you think that you didn't do develop an addiction? When you had been given this feeling so I think when I compare I just wanted to know if like I'm being stupid thinking that like it compares to your feeling, you know, that's exactly okay. So the reason I think when I look at it is I think it's the environmental like the environment along with my Mo so I think during a time when I was hospitalized for four and a half month watching my fingers decompose in front of me at that point. I lost sight of hope. I didn't see that. I had anything left that took a doctor intervening like shout-out to dr. Wiggly at John Hopkins who is like number one in the world for the condition of Scleroderma and finger freezing. I guess essentially he came in and he was like All right. This is a lost cause giving her these like this is not going to help her at all. These are dopamine blockers. This is nerve related. We have to take her off was I pissed? Yes. Did I lash out on nurses who were in the room and like fuck you? Do you see my hands? That's my fuck. You see my hands coming off. I need these meds like nurses become calm me down. I'd be pissed but like so that took a doctor getting involved. Otherwise, I had nothing to live for at the time. I was supposed to take my board exam that was done. I didn't have a memory anymore these Like affect your memory. I couldn't remember to number sequence. So that was that but now when I go in for these little episodes where I get the Dilaudid on a one-time thing, I mean, I got to say I have an amazingly supportive family. I have I have a family who is like able to help me when I get these medical bills when you're someone and you have all these factors playing in when it's like, okay. Well I get out of here like I was telling Casey I had to pee Say on Sunday fifty six hundred dollars worth of medical bills and you know, like there's no way out when you don't have something and you don't have a family you don't have someone instilling purpose in your life. You don't have like I could say the study notes ABA alone has put such purpose in my life that I had these other things to compete for when I come out that there's something valuable to come to but if you are someone who is now with medical bills you're in pain again, you don't have the resources to go. Help there after you don't have that the example the model, right? You're hopeless and that's what are hopeless. And I think I don't think it's because I'm special that that I got out of it. I think that I was just lucky lucky lucky. Like I'm just it's not so that's what I want to say is so for someone like you it's a blessing that you have this son because finding a computer for like a competing reinforcer for drugs has to be huge. Yeah, like a contingent management intervention, right? Something has to be more reinforcing more motivating than the competing contingency of the feeling that drugs give you and by the way taking her son away would be a negative punishment because it decreased as you said, we do know that the consequence The future frequency of the behavior decrease. She no longer. She stopped using the drugs. Yeah, but for a lot of people it's not that way. No absolutely not and it doesn't mean you don't love your son, but it's the point of how strong the drug is exactly what and also having like a family like Mom and I really supporting you and being able to talk about it and not shame her or make her feel like oh you got your son taken away. So you're a shitbag like because I like okay. No, we're going to help like this is a time. This is the intervention time. And the moment was right, right. The everything was in play that needed to be in play. She was being held accountable by the envelope out IOP. They were monitoring her hashtag piss test like you could not you couldn't get away from this. I think that when you first stop the behavior, right, let's say it was put on extinction you no longer could have your son. Did you have an Extinction bursted your You're like blow up when you first going to get any more. No, I mean I kind of secluded myself during all of that so that I wouldn't do they give you something so that you wouldn't withdraw when I went through withdrawals on my own. She's here strong that shit sucks like that. Yeah wedding and everything like wanting to escape your own body. I knew that I had to do that for the first couple of days in order to really not go back to it. I had to really really live in my own shit. Sit in your own shit in your own shit and dirty around anybody you were doing some like antecedent interventions. You're not hanging out with the same people that were using drugs with no, you're not engaging. So you're changing the behaviors that you who were engaging in that got you the drugs. Yeah. These are all things that you were gonna be. So proud of you I am so so so proud of you thank you and I'll always be an addict the rest of my life. I will always be an addict. But the you own that story that exact and you only I can own that story. My story is my story and everybody else who has a story to tell I just want you guys to know that there is light at the end of that dark dark tunnel that you're in right now and just ask for help. That's the only thing that you can do stop being ashamed because you never know whoever you're asking they could have gone through something very similar in the stigma Buck the stigma. There's hereafter. Yeah, like I would never expect Lee got to have so much in common with my sister as like a girl who I see working her ass off and having like 15 side hustles and always being on her shit. Like you never know what people are going through. You don't know people's struggles don't judge and you're not alone. And as Caitlin said and she can proudly sit here today and say that there is hope right now. Is there any thing that you can offer in terms of? Advice to someone else listening because I'm sure someone's listening right now and saying, oh great. That's your story. That's amazing, but it would never work for me. That's another huge thing is what works for somebody else is not going to work for everybody else. People said to me when I first got clean. Oh, you didn't go to rehab it's not going to work. You don't go to Nara. It's not going to work. You're never going to get clean. You're never going to stay clean. That's a lie. Like I had to do it in the way that I had to do it. I was one of those people guys. Yeah, she sure was but it's individualized treatment just as we practice in our field and it's crazy to think that you started what journaling and yeah journaling and just being open. I had to be really raw and honest with myself and with my family in order to get through all the stuff and starting to deal with I also started counseling again. I like the 30th time, um, but to get through that you just have to be it sucks. And there's a lot of shame that goes and that's what keeps us as addicts using as a shame and the guilt of you know, we feel bad when we use it's that guilt of feeling bad when we use but we have to use in order to get better and just do what works for you. That's all I can say ask for help and do what works for you because don't listen to anybody that says if you don't do this it's not going to work now. A question. Did you ever relapse? Yes. Okay. So relapsing what essentially be would that be spontaneous? Recovery Casey? Yeah, I think you can relate it to that. It's basically the behavior was put on extinction and then just want to check in and it's like I was saying with a relationship yesterday, right? Yeah. I actually think that bad relationships toxic relationships could also be addictions like most definite what you have someone. City in your life. You're like, oh, let me give it one last hit every now. I'm cool. Now I could I could just handle it casually me and him are totally cool. I could be around him. Like I'm so over it. Like what I could have one drink you stay away from drinking also, um, I drink every once in a blue with never but I wasn't care. I was excuse me. I was never a drinker I had and I haven't caught consistently always used like I got clean for periods of time and then I'd relapse get clean for periods of time and then I relapse but Getting Maddox Egan was my driving bottom. That was my absolute Rock Bottom. Okay, so when when you have fallen into that you find it hard to get started again. Um, I don't know if it's hard but what I'm saying is like so when you're in a shitty relationships you go back to it, right? I mean I was with the guy who was literally like toxic and I'd be like, oh, we're cool now. Yeah. No, it's fine. Like things have totally changed. I could see him in a casual capacity. We fixed it whatever it is, and I'm sure you speak yourself into that. Same thing. Like it's fine. I could do one last hit exactly you do. You're like, yep. I got it if I can just get had one last time. It'd only be this but it only takes that one last time to get you right back into that behavior. So you know that if you ask engage in that behavior one time, it's going to it's going to go all over again. It's going to continue. Nobody can ever just use one time. I mean if that was true, nobody would be an addict and thank them thank with Heroin. Hmm. I mean, I feel like All those dress. I mean all those drug videos you watch when you're in school like Red Ribbon Week and whatever it is. Is it actually like you try it one time and you're hooked. I mean it's different for everybody. But for me, I don't think that it was because I had already my brain already knew what it felt like to have a drug. That was so similar to that. And did you start off with injecting I start it from the get-go. I'm the guy go. That's the first time I ever did it. I injected it and it was just like you said that whole entire thing that you for that you described as that feeling is what hits you and then it's not Only that feeling that drives you for it's your brain goes into withdrawals like your mind you start like that bag is gone you start withdrawing and you know engaging work. Yes more Behavior to get you more stuff. Yes. Are you like always stress that like, where am I gonna get my next thing always because once you do your last shot or your you sniff your last line your brain is already going into I'm going to feel lighter. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna feel like crap and soon, you know a couple of hours. They say it's like for a boy didn't insert avoidance behavior. Exactly. So it's just a nasty cycle. And remember when we talked about escape and avoidance Casey. What does that associate with negative reinforcement? Yeah, just so you guys know in case you're studying and Casey told me something which I thought was really really cool of you that recently you had like a tooth abscess or something. Am I saying that right? Yes. And if anyone's ever had tooth pain that shit hurt like really bad like, you know, like what happened when you went to the hospital. So I was extremely dehydrated. I was kind of delirious when I went in because I had been throwing up for two days and they put me into the critical care unit because my white blood cell count was so high. It was almost septic. So one of my name I've been through that we can make so much. Let's just like I don't know why I'm even here you guys. Yeah, get out longest podcast ever. So one of my nurses was very very because she knew I had gone in there, you know my charts in the hospital saying that I'm an addict, you know, heroin user pill user. So she had already had kind of like a preconceived notion where she was very cold and she knew that I was in there for the for my tooth like that pain is excruciating back pain. It is like worse than Labour pain and and you could speak to that exactly and she came in and she was telling me about you know, she was more on me about you know, why are you using I've lost a brother to heroin and then she was like, oh, I'm going to ask your doctor to put you on the oxycodone for your tooth pain and I was like, so it's kind of weird because she was so hard on me and so cold to me because I was an addict. But at the same time she was like, I know that tooth pain like I'm a nurse in my husband to see me, you know taking shots and taking everything that I can to try to get that tooth pain to go away and I was like, no, I don't want it that's amazing. It took it trust me. It was so hard to say that but I knew that that first taste of that oxycodone was going to be enough and I was like, nope, you can get through it. You can get through it you can get through it and wow is it was better and I was happier for not taking the Oxycodone that is impressive because we are Mo in that moment. I was like, there's some I mean obviously getting rid of the pain the removal of that pain is something huge. Also, there's something that goes unsaid tell me if you know what I'm talking about. You almost feel like a little Victory when the doctor has decided like I'm gonna give it to you like every time I go in like I have Lupus and the medical record to show enough issues of but every time I get it I'm like I feel like I've done this little victory of like Got it, right that and your victory was I didn't get it. That is so huge for you to say. No, you should be so proud of yourself. I am thank you. That was definitely the once I got through that pain in a couple days later. It was better. I was like, I was even happier or more proud of myself for saying know whether you know where that would have led are exactly that would have let me straight back to the heroin. So we are very proud of you Caitlin. I am you so happy that you can sit next to me today on the podcast. Cast and share your story. So again, thank you for coming on. Thank you for one thing one last thing and I promise I'll shut up Casey's like enough lie. I know did back to my intervention watching. Did you know Candy Finnigan? Whatever her name is? Thanks T. We connect so much Casey. Just get out of here. I'm like I have to go to work. Okay last thing did your family ever have to do bottom line? Like we are no longer. Enforcing this in any way or was that bottom line your son that bottom line was my son. I mean, I'm sure Casey has tried to do that in the past and I just never really let her do it. Yeah, like I mean there was a time when I went over and you were messed up and I took Maddox. Yeah moment and like part of me. I'm like thinking back like why didn't I call dcyf and I just couldn't imagine you know that I like if I would have done that that would have been like it was sitting down. Devastating and horrible and Maddox, you know, I don't I didn't want to put him in a foster carer place and I was working three jobs. I can't take a kid and like I mean we would have figured it out. But anyways, I took him from you for a couple days and he was so mad because he's a guy why my mom and I don't like you Auntie, but that was kind of me trying to put, you know, give her like a way Camille or and Punisher and it didn't work so it worked but it didn't work because Is that like you said that behavior and that need for that drug not to ever say I didn't love myself probably gave you a like free pass to go use drugs because I was like babysitting exactly at that point. It was different wrong intervention. Right? But once the state got involved that was a hole. That was somebody's specifically who wasn't in my family telling me you cannot see him. You cannot have him you he's not safe with you. So that was a huge wake-up call guys. There is hope nope. Yes, there is you can do this Rock Bottom comes and then dark. I mean the sun comes up after the darkest part of the night. Please remember that there is light at the end of that dark dark tunnel you're in right now. So if you guys know someone who's struggling with addiction or you are like we said, there's hope and you're not alone and we love you all and thanks Caitlin. I love you. Thank you so much for coming in and answering all these questions. I love you too Leah. Thank you so much for having me. Of course, and by the way, guys, we only have so much family and friends that we could bring on. So if you have something interesting to share with us and you think you would be a valuable guess that we could share on our podcast reach the hell out to us. We would love to have you subscribe to our stuff on Behavior bitches Apple podcast, press subscribe on Spotify on modified favorite podcast app that you use I'm sure we're going to be there because pretty easy. It is amazing. So anyways guys thanks for joining us as always. Love you mean it. Hey guys, it's Lia out here. And I just wanted to take the time for just a single second of your time and tell you about something awesome. As you know, Casey and I are super into this podcast thing going on here. And getting it started and I just want to let you know that there's an easy way to get it done. And that is what I'm going to tell you right now about pretty easy podcast. Thank God we got in touch with a team at pretty easy podcast. They help you do everything from start to finish. They will get your show up there. They will record episode for you. They will produce it. They will add bleeps in if you're full of f-bombs, like myself, whatever it is that You need they will do it when you first said you want to start a podcast. I was like, okay, we can do that. We have no idea what we're doing. I never really thought it would get off ground until we met Alan at pretty easy podcast and he put all my fears to rest. He helped us get everything going from all of our audio editing and production and hit our song that we have which is Amazing by the way. We're allowed to record from our own homes. He helps us. With our guests, he caters to our schedule. Come on Leo. We are the worst with scheduling. I mean, I know we said we're going to have a podcast a week so far were out a few days. But hey, he works with us. That's what we need. But the point is we were looking about how we could download all these different programs and try learn how to do all this podcast and stuff. But truth is it's affordable. It's much easier have someone do it for you. You could go to pretty easy. Podcast.com and you can get started today. I should go I say if you want to be heard if you have something to say like we do we love the sound of our own voices and we found Alan who lets our voices shine. So thank you Alan at pretty easy podcast.com
If you haven’t picked up on the theme by now, we can analyze the behavior in anything (impressive huh?). In episode 5 we are covering a very serious topic: Addiction. We are lucky to have a special guest joining us who is a recovering addict and is brave enough to share her story. Liat and Casey break down the topic of addiction using behavioral principles and discuss how F’ing hard it is for people who are addicts to stop engaging in addictive behaviors. When people hear the word “addiction” they immediately think of substance abuse but people can be addicted to a variety of self-reinforcing behaviors including constantly checking your phone, checking social media, exercising, sex, food, abusive relationships, gambling, etc. So this episode is really for everyone. Whether you are struggling with addiction or know someone who is, tune in for a real AF episode. Love ya, mean it. Extra Items:  If you want some cool, extra research to read through while on a summer tropical vaca, read these:  Introduction to The Special Issue on The Behavior Analysis and Treatment of Drug Addiction By: Kenneth Silverman, John M Roll, and Stephen T Higgins: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2606609/ (Need apa citation like below )    And a cool article on the use of a replacement behavior to maintain sobriety: Silverman, K., Holtyn, A. F., & Morrison, R. (2016). The therapeutic utility of employment in treating drug addiction: Science to application. Translational Issues in Psychological Science, 2(2), 203-212. http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/tps0000061 