We need to transition into a low-carbon economy, or we need to transition from an institution that was set up a hundred years ago into one that actually is fit for purpose today.Hello, welcome to On The Edge a podcast about making unexpected connections everywhere and anywhere, my name is Roland Howard. And in each episode we talk with somebody who's making sense of our increasingly connected world today. I'm really pleased to welcome designer an Uber connector Cassie Robinson. I've known her for over a decade and I was Keen to speak with her because she is literally connected to an on the edge of so many interesting people programs and organizations that it's almost impossible to list them all but let me attempt to highlight just a few she started out.Career as a fashion designer and fast forward to now. She's the head of digital grant-making at the national lottery Community Fund in the UK as well as that. She's the founder of an amazing network of women called Point people. And in addition she is a fellow of the ucl's institute for Innovation and public purpose to name but a few of her many affiliations and lastly she was until recently strategic design director at the responsible technology think-tank dot everyone which he also mentions in this episode. I'm of course well aware that we all live in our own little All connected communities but nevertheless I'm struck by how many people that I've met who know Cassie or no off her and therefore I'm fascinated by what drives her to do what she does often working in emerging or exploratory fields to try and apply new ways to design transitions. She literally seems to be almost everywhere all the time, which is both remarkable and slightly freaks me out at the same time. So when I met with her recently I started out by asking her as a prolific connector what motivates have to do it and practically how does she manage it? I hope Joy thank you. I cover a lot of ground and I often meeting people and my I currently have someone that looks after my diary and the national lottery Community Fund and she laughs at how many yeah like meetings. I have external meetings. I have all the time. I think like on a really sort of practical level some of the and that I can do that is that is actually because I don't have children. I know that maybe sounds like a weird or unrelated thing but maybe all my friends who have children like permanently exhausted for a period of time and I feel like I have more space and energy to maybe do the many many meetings across many different sectors. I think I'm a bit like you in that I have many meetings and you have three children. I do have three children. Sometimes jokingly say I've got a very short attention span. So I you know, I get energy from talking to lots of different people and frankly I get a bit bored if I'm solving the same company for more than an hour. Do you do you have it? Do you think you have a short attention span or you seem to build long-lasting relationships? How do you balance the breadth of conversations in relationships that you've got with the depth that must be sacrificed to some degree. You've just made me realize while in that maybe that what this is all about is me avoiding intimacy. Maybe I'm just moving from person to person not really connecting deeper than anyone because I'm basically trying to avoid intimacy. Well, you know what? I think that's part of my reason so you can share whatever you like, but I find I like asking people questions which is why I've started a podcast, but I don't really particularly like answering them. I wanted to do this party because it's always nice to see you but partly because I become more open to answering me answering Tiny if I think they're going to be good ones and one of my friends had to Once which really make made me laugh because I think I'm a very open person and they said but only if someone asks you the right question and I think there is something about that for me and in terms of I don't like small talk, it's probably some of the right question or is it the rights of intention? I mean if somebody just asked you a brilliant question, but they didn't care about you or care about the answer. You wouldn't answer it with you. Yeah, that's true. That's probably both of those things and maybe sometimes it's as much is the person really listening the sort of question that will always mean I want to respond as if it's a question that has taken me by surprise or really made me think or I like people being bit courageous in their questioning and throwing in a I feel like throwing down the gauntlet that's better questions. I'm not I'm not doing that. Actually, I think they're really good questions that actually I don't think I've got a short attention span. I think I've got a good attention span. I think I do really enjoy like sense-making and pattern spotting. So I think some of my going around yeah, like hearing and listening to his working on what or who's thinking about what or who's feeling? What or that's just it is kind of like raw material to than used to pattern spot or weave together and I get energy from that. Yeah. It's like a dopamine hit I love being able to think about you know, how if you have people working on something similar or actually something that may not seem in any way related. I really enjoy then helping people imagine what they could do together that they may not have thought of and that kind of thing. And is that just an innate skill that you've developed for whatever reason you are you or is that do you think that's a teachable thing that you could teach other people to do? I don't I wouldn't want to be as arrogant to think it's something I can do that others can't however sometimes I get surprised that other people don't think like that or aren't doing that. I suppose there's there's something in how you can reimagine or how you listen that I think brings a particular quality to how you can like make sense of things or connect to people connect ideas together, and that probably isn't. Something that everyone naturally does that mean one thing that so I know stuff about you that I don't think we've ever spoken about in person. So I know you shared quite a lot about your dad a few years ago, you shed bits and pieces about your sexuality for instance, which I don't think we really spoken much about that. We I'm trying to think well obviously lots of work-related things but em and I admire that openness. I think you would describe yourself as an introvert. Is that right or possibly a shy person? I think you've possibly use those words with me before. Also, how do you balance that openness? So I think there's something about how by being just authentic. I think I recognize there's a real privilege in being over to be all of who you are and kind of show that if you want to I'm really uncomfortable when I can't and I really don't want to have to sort of hide bits of me and I cut I guess I kind of want people to just accept me as I am and I kind of feel Quite unconditional about that, you know, like that's not really a compromise me and I guess what that means in terms of introversion is it kind of helps people understand that? I'm not that good at small talk. So as an introvert my experience of introversion, I can't do small talk find it really hard to be chatty and I do really get drained if I spend a lot of time in a lot of company and I need to sort of retreat and I love spending I'm on my own and there's something about sort of putting it all out there that I think sort of maybe sets a tone for the type of conversation you are up for and I don't find those as draining. I had a girlfriend a long time ago. Who's quite like me. She didn't say much and I don't say much it was a terrible match because we just said nothing. Where's my my wife Juliet is very chatty at home. And I think that's a good balance here. She's chatty. I'm quiet. And actually the to compliment each other's I'm always grateful and relieved and I'm hanging out with people that like to chat so that I don't have to yeah me too and I love listening and it's especially great with my sister. For example who never stops talking. Yeah. And so if we ever have to go to like awkward family things or I can totally rely on her to deal the all the work and I can just sit and be really quiet. Yeah, what's going on in your head that when other people are chatting away? Your sisters chatting away and awkward family together. You actually engaged in what's going on you paying attention. Are you daydreaming anything thinking if I if I disengaged from the immediate conversation? I'll tend to be trying to sort of read more about what they're actually trying to say like what's really going on with this person. I'm a terrible sort of you know, and will you ask them or you just think pens do it is if I think that someone is talking to me on a really superficial level. Yeah. It's getting a bit painful. So awkward and I think that it's appropriate. I might say like isn't this really what you're trying to say or is this actually what you mean or yeah, that sounds great. Please say that to me when you figure out what my quirks are because I would appreciate that we might come back to intimacy. But I just one of the things that I know you're passionate about and experiencing and knowledgeable about with Point people and other stuff is this whole thing of systems change, which is feels deeply fashionable and yet quite We'll still what is systems change Cassie and why do we need it? Well as you say because it's become very fashionable. I've obviously now gone past that moment. Oh, I'm too late. Okay too late. Well, I always talk about designing systemically rather than systems change and I what I mean by that is generally the kind of challenges that we Face are complex. They have root causes of which there are off. Often multiple and the nature of how we solved problems. And also how we think about the world which is often siloed individual is if like a problem can be cut off from all the other things that it's related to and solved that's kind of why I think we need I think we have needed different approaches to try and address some of the issues that we face and I think some of those very linear solution Focus ways are like plaster sticking Not really dealing with the interrelated interconnected root cause of things. Can you give an example the way that everyone designed their programs of work? I think we're really thoughtful in recognizing the different bits of the puzzle that needed to be addressed. If you're trying to what was the puzzle that they were addressing making responsible technology The New Normal, I guess really what that's about is if we're putting technology out into the world. How do we do so in a way that doesn't entrenched power and inequalities and create unintended consequences and all of those things. I've become more interested in transitions. So like transition design just this idea of like, you know, we're living in one system or one Paradigm. You might call it capitalism. I don't know it might be sort of dying or we might want it to start dying and there's an emerging alternative. I'm interested in you know, we need to transition into a low-carbon economy or we need to transition from an institution that was set up a hundred years ago into one that actually is fit for purpose today. There's all kinds of you know communities transitioning. So how's transitioning different changing in a way? It doesn't really matter what you call that work and systems change has become fashionable. I've moved away. Yeah, you're a Pioneer. I think it's just that the Verse ations about it. Yeah, aren't that interesting? What's the work out there in the world that needs doing and what is the best approach from which to do that? The only thing I do think is really important about the system's kind of work is I guess I'm someone that does have a real belief in the idea that we are all interconnected. And I think that's what systems are systems view of the world really tries to put up at the four and I think that was the A useful lens that we need all to have on the world from a very young age because I think it it changes how you act and are in the world. I know you've got an interest in Collective Consciousness is something that I've experimented with you earlier this year around a little project on that and collective intelligence Nest is doing a lot of work around that and other people as well. I wonder what is the difference between like Collective knowing and collective intelligence? Elegance I feel like there's something different about Collective wisdom because I feel like wisdom is where you go to Beyond knowing and Beyond intelligence. I think collective intelligence is a helpful way of trying to frame the space where humans and all living systems and machines will co-evolved together and that is not kind of describe how I think about Captain intelligence and then Collective Consciousness for me. That's always this idea of was there in the liminal space around us and between us in nature in our myths and in our subconscious and our unconscious that we have different ways of that we can access I'm a lifelong terrible meditator or at least I've had a long-standing interest in meditation and generally beat myself up for not being as good at it as I would like but one thing I do know is when I try and meditate on my own, it's sometimes it's all right, but a lot of the time I'm just there in my thoughts and I Give up or get frustrated or whatever, but when I'm meditating with a group of people to don't be very often, but when I do it's utterly different a totally different experience and just this year collective intelligence Collective Consciousness seems to be fashionable or talked about but they seem almost Worlds Apart in some ways as well. And just how do you think of them as different? Well, I think you described it very well. I like the the co evolving of technology and people for collective intelligence seems to be the way it's interpreted and but Yeah, Collective Consciousness is just yeah, just far more kind of spiritual or something, you know, just getting beyond the self and plugging into the web of relationships and some I don't know if you remember ages ago. Me and Ellie Ford won that competition is called ideas for London and we got to stay in that little boat. Well first I was a bit jealous that was with this idea called London scape which was based on you know, the Tree of Souls in Avatar. Yeah, and the I the idea for London Escape, which I I guess that links back to Collective Consciousness, but it was how could you almost like reflect a mirror back on the city of London about the things that we're doing together and the things that we have in common all the things that the aggregate of our behaviors and our data can tell us about the whole rather than the individual parts and I find that whatever you think of the film. Avatar I still find that the image of the Tree of Souls and the kind of thing where they're all sort of connected to one another through their fingertips and this kind of living breathing Collective really powerful image. So I'm curious what what's your relationship like with the future and I'd love to know what your kind of hopeful of a perhaps fearful of as well. Perhaps starting with the the positive where the future most manifest itself in my life is Three. My niece's one of whom is nine and one of whom is five and I see a lot of them and love being an aunt. What's their future going to be and what have we created and left them with and I do kind of really like this idea of plural features. I don't think we can know what one future is going to be and I think there'll be many different ones. But yeah, I don't think I've I don't think I probably have thought. Laughs about the feature, you know, there's people doing work. Now, let's try and encourage people to think more long-term and to think about what it means to be a good ancestor by Ella salt marsh mm be Pembroke are doing the long time project. And you know, I think it is really important to think through. What is the Legacy we're leaving, but can I just challenge you on that? Yeah, I would say you may not have thought about you. Our own personal future but I think through all the work that you do. It's quite future Focus, isn't it? It's about trying to address challenges is trying to solve problems make the world better. Is that not true? Yeah, but maybe it's at the minute. A lot of my work was a bit more responsive like doing the work I do. I'm always doing it because I have a hope that something can be better and that's like one of the motivate like that's kind of one of the things that drives me. I hope that we can. Change were paralyzed. I hope that we can have a future where there's much less. I think it's really unrealistic. So they'll be no inequalities, but I guess I hope for that we can have a better future. Maybe it's just I don't use the word future. Okay, which is where are we trying to get to or what does this look like or how will things be different? You must have hope otherwise you wouldn't you wouldn't even bother, right? Yeah. No, I definitely I Generally, even though people I think sometimes think I'm really grumpy and I can move my favorite. I've been told I'm scary and I'm can be standoffish because that's my introversion. I actually really have a lot of faith in people and a real belief in people and always think the best of people until sort of proven otherwise and I think that kind of belief in people and I guess therefore in humanity Is the thing that gives me hope but even with all the Ingenuity and magic and problem solving and I think we are entering into a time. We already are for lots of people not living in, you know, black Keith. We already are living in times of Crisis and I do think we will they'll be sort of turbulence for quite a long time. Your turbulence is usually a temporary thing in the flight that you buckle up for a period of time until it's over. Do you think it's a temporary turbulence or do you think that's a perm or permanent shift? I suppose I think they'll be a turbulence that might go on for like quite a few decades not just A few minutes and I think the state it will have changed the state of things. I don't know. If you've read like Steven Pinker that a book last year Enlightenment now where he looked at infant mortality literacy rates kind of the global sustainability goals and by virtually every metric in every country. Our lives are quantitatively and qualitatively better than they were 10 years ago a hundred years ago thousand years ago and yet we still I think we lack some perspective as well, but perhaps historical perspective. I can't remember who was saying it but oh, yes, I do. It was Mona chili Beach Allah because it does the amazing data are yeah because she was asked what area and history she would like to go back to she's just made the statement that you know compared with all other areas of History being a woman especially women minority ethnic background. She wouldn't want to go back at any period of History, you know right now notwithstanding all the problems and the challenges is still the Best time to be alive and that's true. I think for the statistically speaking. I think that is true. I don't think we see that all recognize that and just curious why that is I recognize it in myself a fatalism and myself. I mean that's a good thing to be reminded of it. I guess it would also be really odd to be going round saying shut up. We don't need to worry about this or that like we're all fine because we're much better than off than we were 10 years ago 20 years ago, you know, so you can acknowledge progress and Homicide that there is I do believe the science around climate, but what do you make of Extinction Rebellion say this year and gratitude broke and what how does that make you feel about climbing? Well Greta tomb Berg. I just think she's amazing. And I mean thank goodness. She arrived and has and is doing what she's doing. I just I hope she's okay. Like I just think God what a huge amount that she is carrying. I do feel like what she has My obliged in the energy she's created and the awareness. She's created actually won't be put it back in a bag. You know, I feel like it has Unleashed something that will continue to grow and create change and I'm less sure about Extinction Rebellion. I mean, I think I think they have and will also influence people's perception and awareness. I feel less sure about where that will go because I think there's still a lot of people that are also so not convinced by the kind of campaigning work that someone like exception Rebellion are doing Extinction. Rebellion is a is a movement with its own identity and Brandon, obviously, there's people behind it. But where's Greta is at an incredibly impressive young woman, but we do seem to want to put people on pedestals. Don't worry sir to give us hope or to what you know, whatever it is. And you said earlier about moving away from Less individualistic to more kind of collective future. I just I just wondered when you said you weren't sure about Extinction Reveille news. Was it because it wasn't sort of personified by a single Angelic individual that seemed amazing. Whereas Greta obviously is you know that Li you can relate more to her because because she's a amazing young woman it is it just it feels like Her story and what she's done? I guess it's like she's come. So from nowhere. He couldn't have designed for a Greta to arrive and like immobilized the climate crisis movement as well as I might I find that more compelling rather than it's just because she's an it is not because she's an individual individual is just like that's the kind of change all these all of us including me that are trying to do like designing change. Yeah, I guess she's a really good example of how often you can't design for those big change moments and whereas it sinks and rebellions model. I think the thing is for me that it's just I've got a lot of respect for what they're trying to do. I'm hoping to take my niece's there when they're doing their sort of two-week thing. Yeah next week. It will need so much more than Extinction Rebellion. Yeah, and of course it will also need so much more. Than Greta but somehow I feel like she's already like mobile his yeah so much more. Yeah, I my eyes are more on what will happen because of her. So even though you don't think about the future that much it's quite comfy. I quite like struck by the fact. I really can't answer that question. Yeah. Well, well, maybe you've answered it already but my the work yeah, what are you what are you fearful about? I'm not really Careful, I think there's like eruptions or like the turbulence will also have like eruptions and I wonder how things will play out. So I was feeling a real sadness and shame last week about just all like my personal friends who've worked on climate for years and there's not like I've been like twiddling my thumb's doing nothing, but I haven't been someone that's been particularly. Focused on climate and recognizing or just like thinking God hug must they feel now and on the one hand, of course be this is amazing more people are starting to pay attention to this but there must be part of them. That's like I can't believe yeah, we've been saying this for years and you've literally not really paid any attention and I guess someone in me rightly sort of called me out for that sort by saying we'll think how indigenous communities must feel And so I feel like there's this there's going to be this whole wave of that kind of feedback loop of people that have seen this coming and I are already experiencing this and I've been trying to have their voices heard. Yeah. I just wonder what those repercussions will be and then alongside that I guess I fear again, I'm not sure if he is quite the right word, but I worry about the what can sometimes feel quite urgent in terms of our need to act, you know, there's one thing that does in a way unite all of us which is the planet and climber and I'll need to yeah, like work towards trying to address all the kind of crises that are going to come our way because of what's happening in terms of climate alongside all of the healing that needs doing in the world, you know, there's so much colonialism and racism and land rights and how indigenous communities have been to you know, there's all this healing that I think is so important. and and needs to happen, but will potentially slow down our action around climate and I think that's a really tricky kind of space and because in theory if we thinking about climate Justice those things will happen together, you know, we'll act around climber and like racial and social justice or be at the heart of how we do that, but I think that was really tricky and that's where I feel like there's so many Many knots to that and I think it's like one of the most important things and maybe I feel a bit fearful in that. I don't know how to act in that. I was about to ask you where where where's was your role in that so you've because I but I also feel something similar. I mean, I think it comes back to what you're saying earlier about kind of, you know, working systemically, so doing the healing and the reconciliation doing the policy work doing their Technology Innovation, whatever it might be to tackle climate it all needs to happen at the same time. Yeah, I guess there's a play Ality that you can have in your work when how you act this is something I've talked a lot about with Rachel my old boss at door. Everyone around like what is the role of like white women like she and I who are in positions of privilege, although obviously, we're trying to overturn the patriarchy alongside all these other things as well as our role to sort of get out the way or become hinges for young women of Color, for example, like, you know, if we get all of the older white men out of the way, except you and you're not really older you're my age. But if we know that is that is one thing that is incredibly dominant right now that I hope becomes less and less dominant. Maybe actually the leaders that we need which I would say are particularly women of color. I wonder if you know, I could say I could become a hinge which it with by that is just like How do we offer allyship, how do we give some of our resource to that? How do we support younger women of color? How do we Champion them? How do we but actually all of those things in some way are still making an assumption that they would want us to do that? And actually maybe what they most want is for us to literally get out of the way and I think that's something that I'm thinking about and I think we are likely to see a mess some of that up because we're human just the fact that you're talking about it. Shows that you're far more Mindful and conscious of that say that is a good thing. I also feel you know, painfully aware of my privilege and what to do about that. I think the worst thing that any of us can do who are in positions of privilege is to become Paralyzed by it because I think it can be hard to know what to do. I've realized because I was feeling a bit Paralyzed by it. And actually I need to be just prepared that I will probably fuck up. Sometimes I will maybe do something. Well, I'm not aware enough of my privilege one big thing. I've taken from the last year where I've been talking to so many people and just trying to be a sponge and learn and is that kind of paralysis is just everywhere too many choices too many options too much data to much opportunity in some cases, but that creates a sort of rabbit in the headlights kind of fear response or something paralysis and what there's not too much of that just made me think when you're saying that there's not too much care as they'll never be too much. Care in the world whether that's caring for each other or caring for the planet or caring enough that you sometimes get it wrong forgiveness sometimes. Yeah, and I feel like and actually like just having skin in the game. I feel very privileged to be actively thinking about how I can have more skin in the game because as someone that doesn't have kids that doesn't really have any responsibilities or ties particularly that is quite comfortable at Came back rest. I feel like I should be making more use of that for something much bigger than me. And that's that's probably one of the main questions that I'm asking. I would say I ask myself that all the time when you say skin in the game. What does that look feel like I suppose it. There's a lot of comfort in my life, and I'm not saying comfort as a bad thing. I just that's where I think yeah. I have a relatively secure and stable. Distance and therefore it would be really easy for me actually to just settle into that and I guess I don't feel but don't want to do that. I don't feel comfortable doing that and I don't think I should do that and that's what I mean by having more skin in the game. So there we go. I hope you found my conversation with Cassie interesting and relevant to your own life and work is fascinating to me how Cassie talks so openly and honestly about what's important to her. I have huge respect for the value. She creates often with little or no direct benefit to herself. And if you accept the premise of this podcast namely that we're all living on the edge of multiple possible Futures then perhaps we can all learn something from the way the Cassie spoke about the way we need to design Transitions and strive towards more Collective transformation. I hope you enjoyed listening to this. Episode of on the edge. So before we go, please can I ask that you raped comment or subscribe and share it with others who you think might like it as well using the hashtag on the edge. This will encourage us to keep on making new connections and to find more interesting people to talk to and to share those conversations with you. This podcast was brought to you by luminal a collective intelligence Network to address complex challenges in our connected World. Thanks for listening until next time keep on connecting people and ideas. If you do you never know what might happen. Thank you. You and goodbye.
In this episode we are delighted to welcome designer and uber-connector, Cassie Robinson, who is connected to so many interesting people, programmes and organisations, that it’s almost impossible to list them all. Starting out her career as a fashion designer, Cassie is now the Head of Digital Grant Making at the National Lottery Community Fund in the UK, as well as the founder of the Point People network, and a fellow at the UCL Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose, to name but a few of her many affiliations. And until recently she was Strategic Design Director at the responsible technology think tank Dot Everyone, which she also mentions in this episode. I’m struck by how many people I’ve met who know, or know of, Cassie and I’m fascinated by what drives her to do what she does, often working in emerging or exploratory fields to try to apply new ways to design transitions. So when I met with her a few weeks ago I asked her about being a prolific connector of people and ideas, and what motivates her to do it and also practically how she manages it? 