It's Netter just talking to teachers talking to teachers about academic research and evidence-based practice with continuing professional development at PNA 1977 on Twitter Schnatter. Just talking to teachers. Hello, and welcome to another nail is Ngata and this week. I'm in conversation with Matt pink. It's who is the co-author of the vital book with Mark Roberts boys, don't try. Also on the podcast this week, we have podcast pedagogy in which I review what they didn't teach me on my pgce by Sarah Mullen which is an absolute Blockbuster of a book but more of that later on so back to boys. Don't try and interview with Matt and this is probably one of the most open and honest interviews I've ever had the pleasure to record in the approaching 50 near as naty's that we've done and I feel extremely passionate about the book and its themes and that really inspired me to share. Parts of my experience of the books themes. So boys. Don't try examines the researcher and key topics, which is anxiety and achievement behaviour and bullying schoolwork and self-esteem and Mark and Matt offer us ways to avoid problematic behavior and how to address this by boys and highlights key areas of pastoral care and they also expose how popular approaches to engaging buys our best misguided and at worst damage it so Matt is a fantastic guest he's Eloquent, he's knowledgeable and he's got lots of experience that are richly rooted in the classroom. So I'm sure that you will enjoy this. So without further Ado over to my interview with Matt Pinkett on boys. Don't try Okay, so hi Matt and welcome to the podcast. Hello. Hello and thanks for doing this in the Christmas holidays. So they'll be a long distant memory by the time this. He's out but we are just at the end at the point where you start to discover where your school stuff is. Well that marking in the back of your car hasn't been touched and that sort of period so thanks for joining us. No worries looking forward to it. Okay, so as we always start with usually give a gentle introduction, so I'm sure that listeners a very much aware of your work and particular the book is we're going to talking about tonight. But if you could just give us a little bit of an introduction about you and your career to this point. Yeah, okay. So I guess I came in kind of late into teaching. So 2012. I started I think I was about 20 26 at the time. And what did I do? I did GTP there. I always do. You know what I always wanted to teach. I wanted to teach from another like 13 years old maybe younger 12 years old, but then I went to University. I was just sick of universe. I didn't want to do any more. Names, I've got my I got my degree and then I'll just act it all off but lucky enough. I found myself in a series of jobs. I didn't enjoy and then I saw an advert for the nerve to graduate. Is it a graduate teacher program? It was the last year they were doing it. So I'm you know bothered by that time. I was 26 out of flat and all the rest of it I had to pay for so I couldn't really afford to go back to UNI. But this graduate teach program. There's a lot of paid placement. So I did I did a year there and I'll stay in the school for four years after that. Then I moved to another school called King's College in Guilford where I was head of English as an amazing place. I'll always be proud of everything that the students and the teachers did there and then in September September just gone. I joined the rise School in Felton which a special school for autistic people and I'm assistant head of Learning and assessment are brilliant brilliant a lot of talk about that. Yeah. So what we're going to do is focus really the podcast going to be about your book. So at me it's a fantastic book. It's something that we've read quite a lot when I was at the research school. We read quite a lot of that because a lot of the stuff that you're talking about there is steeped in a lot of research and in practical application, which is kinda stuff that we were trying to do. So the booking question is of course boys, don't try so just tell us a little bit about the Genesis of the book. And how it started with your blog balance for bodies. Okay, so it's a balance of boys. Yeah, so balance for boys as a title of a blog post. I wrote In which I said some pretty awful stuff. I said some good stuff in there as well. I think I mean it's still on my it's still on my it's still on my blog. I am you taking it down despite the fact that I'm embarrassed by some of the stuff that's in there. I think it's important that I kind of have this record of like how far I've come and my my attitude Which gender and gender and schooling but anyway in this blog post entitled but balance for boys I said that I said that English is over feminized which is ludicrous. It's so problematic that statement the I basically I was asked the whole blog I was talking about English and I said that I think I think this is almost a direct quote I said, English teachers across the country are so focused on the dressing and undoing the deplorable wrongs inflicted on women in society media and literature for centuries that they're inadvertently alienating. The boys are kind of argued that the subject was over feminized and that as a result boys just weren't engaging with it. And I think that's a problematic thing to say because what it does is it suggests that It's just that the things that English are about, you know, expression and creativity and Human Condition and all the rest of it. It suggests that those things were exclusively female and they're not there human things not female things or male things. But anyway that blog some of it resonated with people and then all of a sudden I just was writing more and more more stuff about about Boys and kind of running parallel to the kind of stuff that I was writing about boys in education my co author Mark Roberts was also doing the very same I think he was doing a little bit better than I was but he was doing it too and I remember one day just got in touch on Twitter. We've never even met before and he was like, I like some of like the cut of your jib or whatever. I liked some of the stuff you've got to say. Do you want to maybe write a book together? either it was all it was like it was like the strange set of I like coincidence coincidence. So circumstances really so Mark got in touch with me and said you want to write a book together one day we can submit a proposal to loads of different Publishers. And I said, yeah, let's let's do it and we were just kind of tinkering around with a proposal and some rough ideas and then another blog I wrote so what kind of removal why was it might have been the militant tenderness one, but another blog I wrote. Kind of did the rounds on Twitter and Facebook and social media. And in that same week. I had two different Publishers get in touch with me and saying Joanna, right? You want to write a book for us and I was like, well, it's funny. You should say that because there's a writer that's a bear right that I have it easy to be able to write a book together. So yeah, and then then it all went from there. Brilliant brilliant, but in terms of tonight, we're going to stick to your chapters because obviously, you know, Mark isn't this isn't here to speak about his chapter. So yeah, if people do want to sort of a comprehensive overview of the whole book, I believe there is a podcast whose name. I remove its page practice podcast. I think it's called I'm pretty sure it's called and and Becks who runs that I think they've done a podcast on the whole book, but why does he have? Yeah, and it's been a really popular one that has well. I know that it's really really good podcast that that's one that I've got on my Not too frequent visits to the gym, which need to be more. In fact, I was reading a lot of your stuff today. I was thinking yes, I could totally agree with your thoughts today about the reason to go to the gym. But once you get past 40 that sort of stuff doesn't matter. Anyway, Nobody Does that no one's mother out there. Anyway, move it back to dragging it back to this. So your chapters start with chapter 2 in terms of disadvantaged students. So it's a two part question here. Could you start with your definition for disadvantaged students and then tell listeners why you feel if the education system is kind of centered on middle class values. Yeah, sure. So so I started I used to turn disadvantaged students rather than working class students. It struck me that actually working working class people doing. All right, all of my mates are working class and they'll they'll loan two ounces each one of them, you know, they go to UNI they work in the trades and stuff like that and they're and they're all Will do in the remaining well for themselves, whereas I went to University and I've got I've got are full, you know, so that the working class is problematic. So I went with the term disadvantaged students and actually when I talk about disadvantaged students I'm talking about this thing that these group of people that Mike Savage in his book class in the 21st century describes as the precariat class. It's the precariat class and and the precariat class is made up of those people who kind of live and work in precarious circumstances. It's the people that don't have savings the people who you know, who's whose lives are always at the mercy of somebody else I think, you know the people that live from one pay packet or one income support payment to the next the people who You know who our landlord could could could say one day actually I'm setting up and these people are stuck. You know, or someone that says sorry. I can't give you the hours. It's mums are the precariat class to these people is kind of lies are always Dublin by other people's decisions and governed by by people who probably richer and better off than they are it's important to say I think in the But people premium as a kind of proxy for disadvantaged students. I realize now that actually that's a little bit problematic Becky Allen's has written a lot about this but actually the moment you get the moment pupil premium students the kind of income support and benefits and that they get actually raises their their their income above what you might Right above the threshold of the Working Poor. So actually in schools. I think we do need to be aware of that. Actually our pupil premium students aren't always the poorest students in our school. But anyway, yeah, so when I'm talking about disadvantaged students and talking about those people who who live whose lives are governed by other people's decisions. And yeah, Book I talk about the fact that I believe. the teaching is Inherently, a middle-class profession that centers around middle-class values and you can see this. I mean I see. Yeah, I mean, it's maybe it's different from me. Right? I live I live in sorry. I'll get that. I live in our work in sorry, but Conversations in staff room, you know teachers talking about their weekends in in the Swiss Alps. I still hear teachers using that word Trav. I still see teachers looking disdainfully upon students that come in on non-uniform days wearing a track. So I still see people laughing about the Jeremy Kyle show and not realizing how how explorative it is, you know teachers talk. in about road bikes, you know, maybe who addict out what I guess. It's I guess it's my own. I've got my own issues there. But but apart from that kind of anecdotal stuff that there was a teacher tap cervix survey last year in which 71 percent of respondents identified it as middle class rather than working class or upper class. And that that disappointed me and I think I went to Twitter and I'll kind of express my disappointment and people said well Matt, the fact is you're a teacher you earn, you know, your the moment you earn over 30 grams. You can't legitimately caught yourself. You can't remind you earn over 30 grand. You can't legitimately call yourself. Working class but those people are always so why not? What did just because I just because I am now on a so-called middle-class wage. I'm supposed to just Reject everything I experienced fire. To the time I own that wage. I meant to just not talk what you know, forget the forget all the years of struggle forget the people on the estate forget all that and now just declare myself. Middle class just because I own a certain wage I think thing is Disappointment in you know, I'll see plenty of working-class people their loads of teachers who come from working class backgrounds and 71 percent of them are saying that they're now middle class. Well, I don't see so many middle-class people losing everything and then going around telling the world that they're working class. It just seems It seems a bit off to me. You know. Listen, I absolutely absolutely do know and I'm sat here in what could you know kind of be called the small study corner of the bedroom with a picture of a picture of George Orwell, which is just very very, yeah react for this kind of conversation in terms of somehow I would always identify myself as working class. So I would be one of the minority of people that you're talking about because the reason that a lot of my family were that, you know, I mean, The family tree you went back as far as I could find and they were all mine is from Wigan having there wasn't anything hell. Yes, but it's interesting. You said that in terms of cents on middle class. And if you don't mind me just share in one quick anecdote and it's not really about me this conversation but in a school I was in previously and we had a 10 or a system for doing brick times and and you know, it was a senior leaders responsibility to read out a prepared script for where people should go in the event of a wet break time, and I did it once and you probably picked It up the fact that I've got a reasonably strong Regional dialect yet, which is softening slightly. Now that I've moved to the you know slightly more affluent areas of living Saint Anne's, you know, it's slightly softening but I did it once and then they wouldn't allow me to do it again and I had a lot of mockery in the staff room around by describing of social spaces. They said we can't have somebody with Mike doing that it just thought so that that just shows you the inherent middle-class payers which you describe really really well in that chapter. yeah, I mean don't get me started on the accent thing it I'm sorry to hear that you've had to deal with that because I've had to deal with it to people just can't get over the way I speak like I mean get I dropped a teaser case and get over it, you know in it's frustrating but this this middle-class thing, you know. The focus on University that kind of thing that is never said, you know going on to do an apprenticeship or not going to University is failure, you know, I don't know. The problem when I talk about this is that I guess some of my own. Insecurities, I guess come into play. But what is and what is not disputable, you know, like, you know, 71 percent of teachers identify and there's middle class for me. That is problematic. Diane re in a book miseducation. She put it brilliantly. She said we're talking about this sector everyone, you know, I own 30 grand now now on middle-class the moment you come from a working-class background and you start describing your middle class what you're really saying is that you're a somebody and if you're a somebody then the people you left behind all of a sudden and no bodies, and I just got I'm uncomfortable with the fact that 71 percent of the teachers who are teaching our kids are saying that they are middle-class when almost certainly 71 percent of the population isn't middle class, you know now and this is idea that you know by getting education you then can break free from all of the previous things that you were associated with had a conversation with Martin Robinson at that, you know, is is there anything wrong with you know aspiring to you know be a Personally in a particular trade who likes going to the Opera. Is there anything wrong with being? Yeah, it worked in the supermarket likes the theater, you know it just education for you know education to be able to think the way that you want to think rather than to get out of the Gaya current place that you either live or and and the language the semantics is always about breaking free. It's about escaping. It's about rising up. And again, I'll quote by Andrei again if she says, you know what the working class really what they really need. They don't need to rise out of their class. They need to rise with their class, you know, and so Yeah, I mean, I mean it's a fascinating subject. But yeah, you know and talking just just continue a little bit too soft want to make no points on the no I'm aware that some people might be listening to see you in these. He's letting his own personal things impose on this issue. But but you know still you hear people saying, oh, we've got a discount on these revision guides for you all. They were only three quid each only free quit, but for some people frequent isn't only three quid frequent is a lot of money, you know, some of the disdain that you you see expressed for parents that look a certain way or speak a certain way or present themselves to certain way to parents evening. People don't want to admit it, but it but I feel that it's there. I mean, I think Britain is a classless society and I think too often teachers feel that they have to present themselves as kind of impervious to all the biases that everybody else is susceptible to but teachers are human just like everybody else. And so I think the first thing we need to consider as with anything any kind of inequality in our in our system. Is actually maybe maybe we are a little too middle class. That's that's my piece on that now and as you know, it's very rare that I go off in terms of offering opinions on the pockets. But I mean, it's something that really resonated with me in terms of you know, I'm not from a family of teachers nobody's ever set foot in a classroom as a teacher out of anyone that I know which I also seem to be quite a rarity because most teachers seem to know other teachers or be related to other teachers or all that kind of yeah, so that anyway pull it pull on it. I'm so pull it back to the book. Sorry about God. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I just wanted to add one resentment for people for being middle class. I don't but I do resent a system. That seems to exclude. People that don't own certain amounts of money. That's all I'll say. Okay, so at me at the end of the chapters you offer some solutions and you're talking the Final Chapter if I finally thought of the chapter that they said that the main or the main thing holding back working class students is attitude. So tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that and maybe some of the solutions that you offered for teachers, you know around this issue. Yeah. I think I think attitude to what equates to success in school, I think still in many schools. Success is University attendance. And I think that's I think that's a huge huge problem. I think you know, you see prospectuses. Yeah prospectus. It's cool prospectuses in which they proudly talk about the fact that ten of their students are now Oxford Cambridge or exits or something where where where's the, you know little little Jimmy went on to become the best plumber in the area. You don't see it. It's I think all right attitudes towards set. I think we need to move away from being kind of exam Focus or university Focus or further study focus and actually be be a bit more in the book. I think I said, we just need to be more person focused. We need to change our attitudes towards success and actually successes and going to University or going on to do academic subjects at College successes. Is is developing human beings that are comfortable in themselves happy and proud of what they choose to do. I mean we did they need options. Of course. but yeah, I think we need to we need to because you said earlier about what's wrong with somebody choosing to go into a trade and being interested in the Opera. I think I think you're exactly right there. But I think a lot of the discourse chicky around exam time is about the future and a future that involves University will hire study as a rate and what if there is a kid in your class that does want to go and work with his dad as a landscape Gardener the The feels like he he can't. Get involved in the discussions that happening on in class can't talk about Opera can't talk about great works of literature or great discoveries in science because so much of the discourse around Academia is tied in with University attendance. So I think we just need to change our attitudes what constitutes success absolutely absolutely so just move into chapter 4 now. So in chapter 4 we took you talk about mental health and you set up the chapter with an insight into how Romeo and Juliet is about male mental health. So how do you link Romeo and Juliet 21st century Britain? Do you know what the connection I meant at the time was was suicide. I noticed that there are a lot of parallels with the kind of things that Romeo is. present in and and the kind of mental health struggles that the people have to that. You know, when when we first see him his father tells Benvolio that Romeo was I can't remember the exact quote but Romeo keep he's locking himself away can't get out of bed. I think he's keeping the curtains drawn and shutting out the sunlight now that To me that seems that's what depression feels like for me and for other people and yet then he meets Juliet and he has the kind of manic. His Manic high and I saw parallels with bipolar there and then you clearly depressed and in the end he kills himself. So there are there are parallels I think with What? Young people and we're all people are experienced today in mental health. And the brownie on although on the other hand perhaps it's poorly because you know unlike lots of young men. Today Romeo actually speaks a lot about how he's feeling because all the time about he seen it. However, he is berated for doing so far Lawrence tells him how tears all thy tears are womanish. So once he while he does talk a lot. He is berated for doing so and certainly nowadays most of the teachers. I know anyway are trying to encourage young people to talk about how they feel. So so yeah, and what you do really really well in all the chapters is you go back to a real depth of research and evidence in terms of you know, that the key points. So could you outline some of the key research on suicide anger and self-harm? Yeah, I mean, I know it's a cliche I say this in the book is a cliche but you know that at 75 percent of suicides the young men young men and I'm sure everybody knows that but that that is that is still it's still a dreadful statistic. What else is there boys from the most boys in the most deprived 10% of society are twice as likely to kill themselves as those in the least deprived? Irish traveller boys are seven times more likely to kill themselves than them. than other boys 24 percent of boys aged 14 to 16 engage in self harm interestingly the most most likely way that is would be alcohol alcohol abuse, but but the second most popular way popular as a bad word, but second most common way that boys self-harm is punching walls 19% of sorry 19% of self-harm in boys aged fourteen, six vendors punching walls things like controlling their eating 16% over-exercising 12% and yeah, I do know boys when I worked in a school with a sixth form around exam time, you know, you see the boys in the gym and really really pushing themselves in there in ways that I don't necessarily know think 16 17 18 year old boy should be so Yeah, there's a little heartbreaking things and it's increasing suicide on young men went 20 up 23% in 2018 23% and yet we're currently apparently more open about these kind of issues than we ever have been before. Yeah, it's a bit of a worry. So you follow it up with some advice. So what kind of advice do you offer to school leaders? I think so much. I think we need to model emotional openness leaders and teachers and when I talk about most emotional openness, I mean sensitivity and tenderness, you know always need to see men and women in positions of authority being kind and being tender and being vulnerable and being weak. I think that's key. We need to be I think we need to be providing meant to talk to you as well. I'd ask. So I think in lots of pastoral teams in lots of pastoral teams certainly in my experience and also this is based off a Twitter poll. I did in lots of past all teams the you know, you always have that kind of teacher who's like that the home school liaison person and the one that's the shoulder to cry on but when kids have problems the one that gets to know mom or dad rings home when there's a problem too often. These people are female and often. The if there is a male on the Pastoral team. He's he's like the behavior guy who goes round throwing his weight around a bit. And actually is there a kind warm open man therefore boys talk to when they when they have problems. I think we need to provide care for male self harm. As I said earlier kid punches a wall when it does happen all the time, especially around they get to 16. I mean they punch Jamal's at parties. They're punching walls in school. And what they're doing is they're coming in to school the next day after you know, they've had a party over the weekend and they come in school now she is on their Knuckles and wearing these bruises like trophies and actually punching a wall or even other self-destructive behaviors fronting up to a teacher fighting on the playground. I think we need to get across these things need to be sanctioned. But also we need to consider what if this is a form of self harm I think we need to harness the benefits of physical exercise. I think speaking to be teachers. Still too many kids are getting away with just not doing PE because they don't want to and they forged a note. I think we really need to think carefully about how we can get all children involved in physical exercise at school. I think that probably means providing a broader range of activities in PE that you know on those PE teacher doing an amazing job out there, but I'm sure that still in some schools the provision is Is limited to football rugby and netball and I think you know, I hear of schools doing yoga and orienteering and I think that's brilliant. Then we need to think more carefully about how we can get more boys and girls involved in physical exercise it we need to eradicate homophobia. That's a huge one. So, I think it's 60 percent of gay or bisexual boys. We've considered taking their own lives. I just want sixty percent of gay or bisexual boys at sixty percent of gay or bisexual children. So again, I think I think teachers need to I think they need to be more lgbtq+ clubs in school. I think that heterosexual teachers as well as gay teachers bisexual teachers. could stand and put themselves out there was Advocates or role models for this kind of initiative. I think still there was a problem with language and using gay in the pejorative sense. I still go. I still think much more needs to be done about that as well. But yeah, I mean it's all there it's all there would but we need to talk with boys using their language. So a lot of a lot of the time what we say is that the boys aren't speak about their mental health, but actually I think maybe there are often times. We're just not listening. So there's a study in Australia in which they asked they asked a group of men who had either attempted suicide all were clinically depressed and ask them when you tried to kill yourself or when you are having a real real down day during a period of depression or kind of language to you use to convey that fact to your friends. And they were saying things like oh I'm stressed or I'm tired. What women are much more likely to say? I'm really anxious or I think I might be depressed whereas men are using kind of. Austin its language to do with work or just had enough of it today or I'm bit stress and boys use these things all the time. They say on tired. I've had enough. I'm just feeling a bit stressed out at the moment and actually these are kind of acceptable male ways of Conveying the actually there's a deeper underlying issue. So we need to listen out for for the fact that boys actually they might be speaking to us. Now I'm slightly and just moving into chapter 6 now my if we can so chapter 6 is on sex and sexism and the stories in the start of the chapter paint quite a depressing picture about the harassed the sorry about the harassment that female teachers face daily. So what does the research say in the area of sex and sexism Again more for me interestingly. This is the chapter that people seem not to want to talk about and yet for me. It's it's the most shocking in terms of what's in there, you know, so in 2006 17 the woman's inequalities committee, they found that almost a third of girls have experienced unwanted sexual touching us. There's another report by UK feminista. They found that 59 percent of girls who've experienced sexual harassment at school. And yet quite depressingly only six percent of students who have witnessed or experienced sexual harassment at school have actually reported it to a teacher. So if 59% of experienced it but only 6% of this 59% are actually reporting it because people think it's This would set which is what happens at school boys grow up. You boys wolf whistle that you boys talk about masturbation to the point. It makes you feel uncomfortable. They just do it and that's just that's just a damn thing. And also, it's embarrassing of course isn't it to go and talk to a teacher that you're feeling uncomfortable about that sort of thing. I mean 29 percent of teachers say that sexist language is a regular daily occurrence. Twenty-nine percent. That's huge. And I bet you twenty nine percent of teachers is to this 2900, but I bet you a hundred percent of those on reporting it but I mean that's speculation. So I just think there needs to be more clarity. I think I think teachers don't know exactly what constitutes sexual harassment in school. It's not it's not just groping wolf-whistling. Yeah looks a making crash jokes about sex giggling about innuendos. Making other people feel uncomfortable. It happens all the time and I think because it happens so often teaches become immune to it. They become kind of becomes normalized. But actually what schools need to do is they need to be clear and you know, there needs to be a policy increasingly in schools with finding, you know, there are policies on what constitutes homophobia their policies and what constitutes racism but I don't see so much policies laying out exactly what constitutes sexual harassment in schools because it's very easy. So you can actually just list this is an impact that the DAV I've already done it in 2018. They release it's in the book. I can't remember but they actually published a set of guidelines literally outlining exactly what constitutes sexual harassment in schools. So lewd comments. That is sexual harassment. Okay, but I bet lewd comments happen all the time in lessons with some Students in some schools and nothing happens. So, you know and I've actually spoken to teachers and said look this is what you need to do. They're uncomfortable with it. I don't know why but certainly schools need to be looking at these guidelines releasing a policy sending a letter home. So everybody's clear on it and then teachers a clear on it and then the next time the girl feels uncomfortable when someone makes a paedophile joke or next time. One, you know grab someone by the Bulls then, you know or my private parts and all the sudden a kid knows that that is wrong and they can they can report it to the teacher and the teacher can see that it's wrong and making they can sort it out. Absolutely. And yeah, if you want to look at that later that the evidence and the research is very clearly outlined in that chapter and in chapter 6, so for people who haven't got the book and you know, that's definitely worth delving into it. Little bit more detail in terms of you know how to do that as a leader in school. Hmm, that's Millions chapter 8 now my if we can so this time for one of my favorite stories here. So this is a lovely segue from a quite a very serious topic into quite a personal story. But you know this really resonated with me as a kind of you know, a male teacher I suppose. So in chapter 8 on violence you tells a story about the remnants of a half-eaten Kebab. So just just tell us a little bit more about that story. Yeah, it was just one of those moments of kind of masking impotency. I think cumin feel so it's a true story about when I was about 15 16 years old in a kebab shop eating a kabob and the first of many I hasten to add but but yeah, even think about having free leads free leads free. That's about two or three years older than me. They were after six came in and just to just just took the piss out. Basically, one of them kept flicking my my ears as well just made me feel feel feel horrible. Really I didn't I didn't put it in the book. But I mean I sat there after they left cry my eyes out and then I went home and then I left the apps and I stalk the streets for hours trying to find them. Thinking when I say I'm going to sort them out all three of them never mind the fact that they're all to Stone heavier than me and you know twice as big as me I'm going to sort them out. And I never did find them that night and probably I didn't actually want to but you know for years afterwards, it's always played me I start. Yeah, I still see these boys around but they're not boys anymore, but I still have to walk past them in the street and I've often felt that actually I think I went went to bed that night safe. I have my head kicked in, you know, because if I'd found these boys They will if they would have killed me. So I went to bed a little bit embarrassed. My pride has been broken, but my face was all right, but I still felt like a failure and I said somewhere else recently at the time. I would have rather gone to bed in a hospital bed. Bruised and broken but having done something having stuck up for myself rather than go to bed say from and as I did because I just sat there and just let them. Humiliate me in front of everybody. So yeah, I mean and this is a tough one these moments because you feel emasculated and the guy called. Dr. Anthony Ellis. He's written a book. I think it's called masculinities and violence and he talks about the very real fact that for many men, but enjoy these moments of humiliation. Where they feel that they have not acted as a man should later on in life. They will try to atone for those moments and I don't want to talk about it too much but Certainly, I feel that later on in life. There were times when? well, maybe I conducted myself in ways that I shouldn't because I was still ruminating on that moment and the moment somebody humiliated me and I just took it. Sighs so yeah. Yes, she hardly. It's a funny one it really it. Well, it is an Everyman who's reading that will have a story like that and it resonated, you know with me and I can think of exactly at the time when that happened to me, but I mean in terms of sharing I'll show it very very quickly. So I had gone from being sort of hero to you know, massively 0 within the space of about half an hour. So, you know, these these stories often revolve around football so scores winning goal in you know game against school. That was next door. The nineteen eighties, you know, so I'm a bit old. Yeah, but you know, they didn't have anything like, you know security fences or anything between the two schools. So your score the goal you come out like a here or you with your mates, then three of the next door School jump on you at the end of the day as you walk out the front the school the rest of your mates disappear pretty Lively and you get you know, I rather got hiding and fortunately for one of the things about the 1980s was that people would intervene and they weren't scared the consequences. So fortunate, you know a car driving past, you know. Sort of an older gentleman got out and shoot him away. But yeah exactly as you felt it just feel like running through that in your mind how you could do it differently. What kind of things you do next year how you would do that and having to live with that quick back into school from what should have been the best day of school coming in to actually to worst and I often think about it. Now in terms of you know, glamour father of a secondary school age pupil now so, you know, I think about what kind of things would I share out of that and I think that chapter on that really really helped sort of crystallized my thinking there would you would you say you're over? When you're educated now, you're you know, you're a teacher you're liberal when you're open-minded and your which we having this we're having this discussion. Would you say you're over that humiliation? All that emasculation? Well, the fact that I can still remember it after what's going to be in my case. The it's got it must be about exactly 30 years says that probably not fully I often thought that it may be taught me the lesson that I need to be taught which is a strange way of thinking that I'd become almost You know too big for my boots, which I don't I think I don't know. I don't think I could do nothing. I particularly had but ya know I certainly I don't know is the answer I suppose and it's becoming more of a thing because you know, what advice do you give to your son in terms of because you to go and talk about testosterone and testosterone being a complicated beast. And you think what kind of advice do I now give to my son if he was to be in that kind of situation. I think that's really interesting. yeah, I think it's this testosterone thing is it's interesting, isn't it? It's like I think I called testosterone is like comment was it saves as masculine? He's escaped go or something. Yeah. This is like a get out. You know boys are just violent because of this thing called testosterone, but actually this whole this whole testosterone thing. I think that yeah, I call it a fairy tale. We can't put testosterone. We can't reliably say that testosterone is responsible for male violence because Cordelia fine, she writes a brilliant book called. I mean it's testosterone Rex and energy. You know, she explained. I mean the whole book is a dismantling of this testosterone myth but so few things that stuck out and they got testosterone is quite an easy measure we can weaken as I understand it levels of testosterone quite easy to measure but it's kind of crude because there are other kind of Seasonal biology that are far more difficult to miss it measure things like you should and levels and the right or the way in which it converts to testosterone the number and nature of various receptors in our body. How each of these receptors are sensitive and how sensitive they are and how that differs from person to person Etc. These are all things that measurable but far less easy to measure and so testosterone becomes kind of like the go to Actually the body's hormones system or the end. Is that the endocrine system not the body's hormonal system is a complex Beast with so many different things happening at any one time. It's tough. I kind of think of that blaming testosterone for male violence is like blaming the newsagent who sells matches for the fire that happens later, you know. Those matches and the fact that this news agent has sold them is a factor obviously and in the arson that happens later that you would never say that he is responsible for the fire. yeah, it's complicated and there were loads of studies that for every study that it's like anything in Congress in research for everything that every study that supports one argument is another that suggest otherwise there's lots of studies that show that Testosterone rather than having an effect on our environment. Actually our environment has an effect on testosterone levels. So for example when when men become fathers The testosterone level is reduced. However in tribes where paternal care is the norm. Where where where fathers are responsible for the rearing of children those men have a greater reduction in testosterone. So what's happening? There is their cultural circumstances are affecting the testosterone levels and not the other way around. They're animals studies that show that testosterone levels in monkeys are different depending on the social status of that monkey and they will change as that monkey. Either Rises up to Social Status the you know, the social hierarchy that that tried or downwards and it's not like the monkey he you know, he gets a surgeon testosterone and then he becomes leader of the pack. It's the other way around you becomes leader of the pack and then his testosterone levels rise. So I mean Cordelia fine testosterone Rex is that is is the person to go to open this But yeah, I think you need to be aware of this testosterone myth. So in terms of the chapter on violence, what advice do you give to school leaders and teachers in that area? I think too often we react to violence. Well, that's it. We react to it. So violence happens and then sanction. Takes place but actually in schools where violence is a problem there needs to be a proactive approach the needs to be a whole school approach with a frame work. No logic behind it a program of Education. Yeah, I don't know where whether this would happen in pshe lessons or blocked off days over the course of the year or as a kind of intervention thing with certain groups of students, but there needs to be considered and careful thought and crafting into the living a program and it needs to be effectively delivered by teachers who are good at delivering it just like in any subject. and It needs to be relevant. The research shows that these kind of programs these violent prevention programs do work. They have been shown to have a positive impact on reducing violence in communities. But it does need to be relevant. So there's no point. You know, there's no point doing a violence prevention program that focuses on knife crime or gang culture. If you're working in a school where there are there's never been a stabbing in the community, you know there needs to be it needs to be relevant and it needs to be evaluated as well. I'm just like any program of instruction. But yeah, certainly I think the schools need to Thinking about putting in place a scheme of work basically a scheme of work and violence prevention and there's loads of there's loads of literature on that. I think in the book, I actually include an example program. I think it's six or seven lessons that people could follow but I also in the book there's a link to some of the work done by a guy called. Dr. Michael floods and and some other some other person. My other institutions, who are you can just go onto their websites download whole schemes of work about violence prevention programs. Yeah, it's fascinating chapter. It's a fascinating book. So with whip through this pretty quickly. We move into the last chapter if that's okay. So in the last chapter what next you talk about, I tell readers that years of gender socialization cannot be undone by reading your book. We've all made a positive change by picking up the book. So what next then for school leaders or and cuties or just teachers in general. I think there just needs to be an ongoing reflection and discussion. I know for a lot of people this book. This book is a catalyst, you know, and it started something some schools. Some teachers are spoken to are basing, you know, whole CPD programs off the back of it and that's brilliant. But what what I really like is when teachers come to me and say after reading your book I've stopped saying man up. To my kids or now. I've read your book. I actually talked about masculinity in Romeo and Juliet and not just how Juliet's mystery it now. I've read your book. I think a lot more carefully about. How we set kids and I've noticed that we're putting all the boys. It was equally boys from disadvantaged backgrounds and bottom sets. And so now my school are changing that that's what I like. I think that's the next step is to keep reflecting and just to keep thinking and keep the discussion going because there are a whole host of people out there who have read this book, but want to talk about it. So some so yeah, keep keep keep thinking and adapting and tweaking your practice and you know, it doesn't have to be a whole school thing. We wrote the book. Very aware that the actually lock the teachers reading it or not don't have that power to just do a whole school change, you know, and we say in the book that you know, the end of the day that the classroom is is your kingdom your classroom is where you rule and you know, if the scheme of work says that just because you know, you've got a boy heavy class. I hate that phrase boys have a good and so you're going to war poetry were actually know. so do you doing more poetry but don't write some poetry about love and feelings and Kind if you want to if you feel that's the right thing to do. So I'm hoping that the people just use it as a kind of a confidence boost, you know to keep going and keep reflecting keep and keep chatting. Well, I mean terms of my own practice and you know, this this podcast for me is is the best kind of CPD because I'm fortunate I get to speak to two great people like yourself about this and I just think about my own practice and I'm sure that listeners will be you know, thinking about reflecting on there's but you know, I've had some of those classes as you described as kind of by heavy and Approach is sometimes being to use humor and and perhaps to use humor in a way that you know, I hesitate to say this because I don't want to be criticized in my own practice on a bad gas. But you know, that could be seen to put myself at the Forefront of the class as the alpha male and squash it one or two maybe and I think now done it I think you know, I didn't do it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I know that I probably will at some point but I feel now is if maybe it's it maybe it's because I'm getting a bit older or maybe It's because you know your parent yourself now, it's just and certainly with reading this. I just think I'm doing less of that. And actually I'm not needing to do as much of that. I'm quite happy to be open to things that are like that wouldn't necessarily be stereotypically male or things that ways of behaving in ways of acting and Bo not apologetic about that. So I think it's a real impact in terms of me considering how I go about things. Good. Good. I'm glad I'm glad So in terms of just finishing off a little bit if we can so I know you viewing massive demand in terms of communist speaking at CPD sessions and I was going to share another one. I'm done with it. I mean, I'll go down to quite a lot of research at events and it's always good to see when people are on the way down to research as you can see who's coming because your book pops up everywhere. So I went to a lot of research at events last year and I thought I'm in good company entree and carriages when boys are gonna try pops up because it's quite a distinctive covers it in terms of its color. Yeah anything. Ah, here we go. So this Lots of people doing that so just tell us a little bit more about where you'll be speaking coming up soon and maybe where people can find a little bit more about maybe booking you to speak somewhere. Yeah. I mean if people want to book me to speak they just need to get in touch on Twitter and I'll try my best to make it happen, but the next what we do in so Mark and I I guess an X the next Big event at the top of my head that we're doing is researching that our interim normally at the end of April. That's short Allison and Andy car be arranged that one so research it down and that and then after that it all just goes crazy. We've applied for the Festival of Education. We're doing some stuff up in Leeds. I'm doing research Ed. Alfred I'll be doing I'll be doing research at Ken again. Hopefully, they'll invite me back at sorry. So yeah, we let you know we like we like we like to spread the message and flog a few more books. So people are of us will be there. Fantastic. Well, thanks again Matt Forte. I really appreciate your time in your holiday to speak to us really enjoyed the book and yeah, hopefully You know, we'll get a chance to bump into you at one of these events at some point during the next year. Told ya thanks, and I'm yeah, thanks for putting up with my terrible cough. I hope it I hope it hasn't impeded on proceedings too much. Not at all. Not at all. Thanks again. Okay. Take care. Make this Schnatter. Just talking to teachers podcast pedagogy. What is Phil reading this week podcast pedagogy listening? Teachers never Schnatter just talking to teachers this week on the podcast pedagogy section. I am looking at what they didn't teach me on my pgce by Sarah Mullen and this is the one of the most comprehensive well research and fantastically practical books that I've had the pleasure to read and the author has all the credibility and experience. You would expect for a work of this quality. Sarah has moved from being an English teacher to head of English from assistant head to Deputy head. And the insight and experience allows her to talk with other teachers and bring the reader a collection of narratives in a range of genres and styles from professionals at all stages of their career and what I liked about this book and this is ideal for me in terms of the busy day to day life of a deputy head teacher you can dip in and out of this which is perfect. As I said so chapters inspire you to research more and the also will pinpoint other areas for further study. Should you want to go deeper? And it's 13 chapters on topics such as behavior management childhood trauma, but also a fantastically practical one on acronyms and wanton modeling as well. So these 13 chapters are full of Pearls of wisdoms foot Pearls of Wisdom, even funny stories and good solid advice from a diverse range of teachers plucked from the twittersphere and the biggest thing that I took think that teachers will get from this is a feeling that they're not alone and in a sense of belonging and it can help support new and experienced teachers. Us and help you reflect healthily on your own practice. This is a great book and I would have the pleasure of speaking to Sarah fairly soon on a future nail as natter. So that's what they didn't teach me on my pgce by Sara Moulton and that's available everywhere now Schnatter just talking to teachers podcast pedagogy. What is Phil reading this week podcast pedagogy listening to teachers? Schnatter just talking to teachers to move it into the Shameless plug section and there are fewer and fewer of these at the moment so we have research at Birmingham and we have research at Blackpool of course we also have research had rugby up on the horizon so thank you to dude hunting for inviting me back to that story looking forward to going back there and last week I started a section which was sort of teacher life and teacher five a day where I was advocating getting out and about and doing some activities so as you know quite a fan of the park runn so if you can get one of those Saturday morning very very good for your physical health and it's good in terms of meeting other people having a chat on a Saturday morning. I did manage to get out and watch a film this week. So if you get a chance to go and watch the gentleman, which I personally enjoyed very very much and it was a guy Ritchie back to form film. So check that out and also in the music from this week have a little bit of a change of tack from last week's recommendation on Jerry cinnamon. So this week I have been listening to the sounds of Hans Zimmer his soundtracks. So yeah really into that what you will okay. So coming up next week on the podcast. We have Sam Strickland aka the Stricker Master talking about his new book, which will be out at the end of next week. So that's a great interview really practical chock-full of advice that you can take away from the podcast. I also have a future podcast lined up with Tom Rogers and Sam twistleton. So again as ever I meant to say thank you very much for listening to Neil is natter and speak to you again next Schnatter. Just talking to teachers talking to teachers about academic research and evidence-based practice with continuing professional development at PNA 1977 on Twitter Schnatter. Just talking to teachers.
There is a significant problem in our schools: too many boys are struggling. The list of things to concern teachers is long. Disappointing academic results, a lack of interest in studying, higher exclusion rates, increasing mental health issues, sexist attitudes, an inability to express emotions.... Traditional ideas about masculinity are having a negative impact, not only on males, but females too. In this ground-breaking book, Matt Pinkett and Mark Roberts argue that schools must rethink their efforts to get boys back on track. Boys Don’t Try? examines the research around key topics such as anxiety and achievement, behaviour and bullying, schoolwork and self-esteem. It encourages the reader to reflect on how they define masculinity and consider what we want for boys in our schools. Offering practical quick wins, as well as long-term strategies to help boys become happier and achieve greater academic success, the book:   offers ways to avoid problematic behaviour by boys and tips to help teachers address poor behaviour when it happens  highlights key areas of pastoral care that need to be recognised by schools   exposes how popular approaches to "engaging" boys are actually misguided and damaging   details how issues like disadvantage, relationships, violence, peer pressure, and pornography affect boys’ perceptions of masculinity and how teachers can challenge these. With an easy-to-navigate three-part structure for each chapter, setting out the stories, key research, and practical solutions, this is essential reading for all classroom teachers and school leaders who are keen to ensure male students enjoy the same success as girls. Questions:  Gentle introduction- tell listeners a bit about you and your career to date . Tell us about the genesis of this book and how it started with you blog ‘balance for boys’    In chapter 2 on disadvantaged students , could you start with your definition of disadvantaged students then tell listeners why you feel our education system is ventured on middle class values? What solutions do you offer for school leaders and teachers particularly around setting? In the final thought of the chapter , you say the main thing holding back working class students is attitude. What do you mean by this? In chapter 4 on mental health , you set up the chapter with an insight into how Romeo and Juliet is about male mental health, how do you link this to 21st century Britain? Could you outline some of the key research on suicide , anger and self-harm   What advice would you offer to school leaders ? In chapter 6 on sex and sexism , the stories at the start of the chapter paint a depressing picture about the harassment that female teachers face daily , what does the research say in the area of sex and sexism? Why does there need to be absolute clarity for school leaders on the issue of sexism and sexist behaviour? In chapter 8 on violence tell us the story about the remnants of a half-eaten kebab. What is the testosterone fairy tale and why is testosterone such a complicated beast? Again what advice do you give to school leaders and teachers? In the last chapter ‘what next’ , You tell readers that years of gender socialisation cannot be undone by reading your book but we have all made a positive change by picking up the book . What next then for school leaders and NQTs? Finish off by telling us where we can find out more about you and where you will be speaking next . Podcast pedagogy is featuring Sarah Mullin's excellent 'What they didnt teach me on my PGCE"     ---   Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/naylorsnatter/message 