This episode is brought to you by TaxACT. This tax season Tax Act has your back with their deduction maximizer and a hundred K accuracy guarantee. You can feel confident. You're getting the most out of tax season learn more about how to maximize your deductions and your refund and get 25% off federal and state filing attacks act.com gimlet. That's TaxACT.com gimlet for 25% sent off federal and state filing. Hi guys, before we get started with today's episode of sampler. I have a quick announcement to make and so with me in the studio today is gimlet CEO and co-founder Alex blumberg and he is here to make the announcement with me. I am sorry guys like to get down to business. The big announcement is that this is the last episode of sampler. I can hear the like the cries of No, and what I want to make clear is that it's not the last episode of you. This is the last episode of sampler sampler is ending true. Brittany loose is here to stay and get bigger and stronger for Britney all yes, exactly. So we're making this last episode of sampler to basically clear the decks so that we can develop a bold new project with u-bolt. I like that. Yeah, I like that a lot. Yeah and listeners don't don't unsubscribe because we'll be using the sampler feed to do some podcast curation and to keep you guys updated on what's next. But before we get to all that I want to thank all of you for listening to sampler week after week me and the sampler team. We absolutely love our listeners and we appreciate every single tweet and email and piece of feedback that you guys have provided throughout the past nine months. We literally could not have done this show without you really love you guys and Been amazing going on this podcast Journey with all of you, but we've done a lot of what we wanted to do with the show and we're kind of ready for the next thing. So, we really enjoyed this time with you guys at sampler. And we hope that you will join us on our next adventure. Yeah, and I want to say I'm just incredibly proud of what you have accomplished in the show. I feel like every episode almost it's just been better and better. I've just been amazed at how you're connecting with your audience, and that's why we want to Build on the success that you've had with sampler and build a project that is around you and the team that you've built here. Thank you. I'll take that. Thank you. So what can you tell everybody about your new show? The details are very very Under Wraps right now. It's obviously still in development. So we are working on it. But we do have a name. Yes, Brittany on the loose Brittany on the I think they're allowed to I got it because yeah because of your last name because of my last name. Yeah. Name right Brittany. Yeah on the loose. Yeah. Yeah. I like it what other things could you do a loose screw loose cannon loosing my mind losing my mind that's have stretch. I've never really thought about this kind of name can really I know it's very flexible. I'm sure I'm sure you thought about know most people stop at loosey-goosey. So we have a name. We're we're gonna concept. Yeah, so listen, Sirs, please stay subscribed new things are definitely coming your way. You're gonna be sending people previews of Brittany on the loose. Yes previews and Brittany on the loose. So that's all the news that we have for now. That's enough news. That's really the big that's a big amount of news for our listeners before the podcast. I think it's but we do have one final podcast of sampler for you guys to enjoy. Yes. So without further Ado here is the finale episode of sampler. From gimlet media. This is sampler. I'm your host Britney loose and today's episode is all about True Crime podcast. So true crime is really popular. And for some it's pretty controversial one could argue that it's the genre that really brought podcasting into the mainstream like you might be thinking about the first season of cereal which investigated. A murder and subsequent trial in Baltimore, Maryland that particular show focused on the social issues surrounding a crime and it's aftermath and other shows on the True Crime Spectrum focus more on like the gruesome details of the crimes themselves. And for me, those are the ones that are especially difficult to listen to and if you are like me just a warning because we were talking about true crime in this episode. Some of this stuff will be hard to hear. They're going to be mentions of sexual assault and violence. Crime, so please proceed with caution. So later in the show. We're going to focus on one true crime podcast in particular one, that's more on the serial style investigative end of the spectrum. But first we are going to sample some of the other True Crime stuff that's really gained in popularity so that we can understand the many varied appetites of podcast listeners. And as I mentioned already the more violent stuff is not really my personal cup of tea. So I I have decided to enlist some help the only person to appear on sampler two times. No way. Yes. Yes some of the two timers. Yes. Yes, you are. I'm so special Tracy. Welcome. Welcome to sampler. Thank you for having me. I've missed you and your face. I miss you too. I'm so glad you're here of like we don't have any alcohol this time. I forgive you I gave you when I walked into mins ago. I just don't want but I noticed I noticed so Tracy Clayton is a writer. Heed and she is one half of the podcast another round. But the main reason why Tracy is here today so excited so so freaked out already stressed out about this, but the reason the Tracy is here today is because she is obsessed with True Crime podcast. I am I'm obsessed with True Crime like everything true crime books True Crime shows. I if I had to television in the only station was investigation, Discovery I would be completely fine with that. I wouldn't even be mad. It's not just you who likes these you're saying. I mean like there's a ton of people. I mean eat since True Crime has kind of like really en masse come on the podcasting because if you think about podcast really blew up after cereal, which is true crime, but it's kind of more just like investigation. Yeah, but like the specific kind of True Crime stuff that you're talking about like now it's like now that it's kind of like entered the podcast world for real. I mean, it's blown up like it is like people are It's not just you people are obsessed with it period and there seems to be a new two hand Pockets everything. Like I can't even listen to all of you can't keep up. I can't I just I just why do you like it so much because it's like I mean full disclosure like I can't get into it. Like it's traffic sent a stresses me out. I feel like that's the most logical response to horrible crimes like murder and assault that makes more sense to be like, I'm good. I'm good. Why do you like it? This is actually a question that I always struggle to answer. Eloquently because I can hear how like nuts I sound as I'm saying this but I think that my obsession with True Crime comes from my anxiety over such horrible things happening in the world. All right, so I have generalized anxiety disorder, which means I forgot about everything so when I'm like reading the stories in watching all these crazy documentaries and now listening to True Crime podcast in my head, I feel like I feel like I'm preparing myself to keep something like that from happening to me if only by like always Having it on my mind, you know, so like when I pass somebody on the street that I don't know like I seriously assume that you could need me bodily harm. Hopefully, you won't just in case you do like my guard is up and like my my neurons are like doing whatever like the protective neurons do and I'm just like okay just be ready to run if you have to because you never ever ever know. So there's that aspect of it. I'm also really obsessed with what happens in somebody's brain or their life that like makes them do these horrible horrible things. I never thought I never thought about it from the I have no idea what I never thought. But I mean like it's really scary to think that like somebody's brain could just like fuck up as it's like being put together and then bam there's a psychopath and they can like murder people with like no conscious and like I'm somebody who wants to have kids one day. I'm very interested in not raising a serial killer and so like I'm really really interested in like the childhoods of serial killers, like what happened to Ted Bundy like to make him just awful and terrible. How can I not treat my child the same way, you know what I mean? Yeah, like my brain is always overly trying to Keep catastrophe from happening. Yeah and somehow I feel like this is a way this it feels like a tool for me. It feels like some kind of comfort like I never get too comfortable when I'm like walking down the street by myself in the dark, you know, like I'm just like well this reminds me of like the episode of I killed everybody that I saw and that's for sure. No, it might as well be also it's entertaining. Like I also don't want to like minimize that aspect of it. It's easier to be like I enjoy like Thrillers like suspenseful music. Yeah. No, because to say I enjoy hearing about these things happening in real life is it's creepy to here is uncomfortable to say why is it uncomfortable to say like, I know there are a lot of people who like True Crime, but I also know that it's a very like specific sort of like fandom and I feel like the average person that you stopped on the street. You're like, hey, are you into serial killers it be like you maybe a little too into serial killers just like a wild thing to like ask our Wonder, but I think there's this Fascination in every human. This thing that we just like can't control that being being like death in an unforeseen tragedy, you know, like we can do our best to guard ourselves against it but we really, you know, yeah, we just got here kind of waiting to be killed sort of that was depressed. I'm sad so hard not to be creepy. So true crime is kind of like your security blanket True Crime is my security blanket. That's a perfect way to say, so I heard you brought some clips and did you today I would like to apologize. In advance, I'm a little nervous. But I mean, I'm not expecting like a full like 180 conversion. Uh-huh. But like I'm brave Mmm Yeah, and you're so brave. I'm an Intrepid host sampler dedicated and I'm gonna go I'm gonna do this deep dive with you today Tracy. So the very first clip is from a show that I absolutely love cock criminal. It's hosted by Phoebe judge so criminal I like because it's very short. It was very well produced and she often has Is interviews with people who are involved in the particular crimes and it's important to note that not every crime that she discusses like murder rape assault like sometimes it's just like people who were falsely convicted. I think there was an episode about like the vandalism of like a really sacred redwood trees. I like all kinds of like crimes get discussed me right now. I'm kind of drawn to the violent episodes. I know it feels weird for me to say this particular case. This was a really tough one to hear and to everyone listening. You should know that this is going to contain graphic descriptions of a sexual assault. So, please listen at your own discretion. So the crime itself happened in Anderson South Carolina in 1983 in the first clip is an account of basically what happened in the initial crime. So you've got Phoebe judge and she's talking to Carl Anderson who was the deputy chief of the Anderson County Sheriff's Office he Is one of the officers who got called into the Days Inn motel, which is where the attack happened and he got there and you found 23 year-old Elizabeth Daniel who had just been like brutally gang-raped and here he is describing the scene and the crime and what he saw it's amazing just a miracle that she survived because the injuries harm Harbor she'd been raped by three men. She knew one of them Roscoe Brown very well, they'd had a Child together although Brown was married to someone else when she went to the motel that night. She thought she was meeting only him and he wanted to break it off and I think maybe she was asking for child support. So he basically he did. I think he did this to discredit her show that she was a person of just go out with anybody and man he didn't intend for it to go. far, but everybody got drunk and then the other words I just went berserk the blood the room was just not walked in it which bloody blood all over the place, but she they left and she managed to get enough strength to make it to the lobby of the hotel and said and share their and it was just so so with blushing. Almost ready there. Elizabeth Daniel lost four pints of blood and was burned all over her body with cigarette lighters newspapers described it as a six-hour Act of unbelievable brutality. She was in the hospital for five days. How you feeling? Oh my God, that's terrible. Yes. These moments are the hardest ones for me and like True Crime podcast. My true crime stories is listening to like the actual harm that was visited upon the victims. I was disturbed by the details, but I was very depressed by the fact that like this guy wanted to get out of paying child support. So he decided to Stage a gang rape so that people would just assume that this woman was of like loose moral. Yeah and like You know and then she wouldn't be able to ask for child support like that so much going on there. Yeah, like that's just so fucked up something that like I do find when I watch Like true crime documentaries that I was able to like get into it's just like sort of like how or like what certain crimes and how they're received like what that says about not just the person who committed the crime but like how all of us feel Write about the person who like the crime was done against. Yeah, I mean for sure when it comes to crimes against women, I feel like true crime stories can be such a stark indictment of like the society that we live in in the way that like our legal system sees and treats the act of rape itself. Yeah, because like another component in this is that he not only did he assumed that if he could make her look like a promiscuous woman that like that would get him out of child support but like it didn't even seem to matter that like, this was a violent sexual assault it. A consensual sexual act, you know and like implicit in that is blaming the victim. You know, what? Oh, well if she wasn't so loose then she wouldn't have been in a position to like get hurt in this particular way. You know what I mean? Yeah, which is crazy. So the next part of the story is it just like made my brain melt and I will tell you why after the assault happened the three men who were responsible for it were quickly found and they all of them plead guilty right in a court of law this And yes, I did this horrible awful things. Yeah, and so it comes time for sentencing. So the case went to a judge named see Victor pile Junior for sentencing. And in this next clip. We're going to hear a man named George Duckworth who was a solicitor on the case with that time and that's kind of like being the district attorney. So here's George Duckworth talking about Judge piles, very unusual sentence. I mean nobody really expected that sentence. I mean, we weren't we weren't prepared for that sentence. Here's what happened first judge pile told the court. It was the worst rape case he'd ever seen and then he gave the man a choice. They could serve 30 years in prison. That was the maximum at the time or spend no time in prison and undergo surgical castration. There was just dead silence in the courtroom for a moment when when he handed that down and I think a lot of people look at each other wondering if they'd heard it right but then after a short time of silence and there was a lot of talking going back and forth then people really surprised at the at the sentence. Were you surprised? I was not totally surprised because I had talked with the judge earlier and I'm he'd read the pre-sentence report and and I didn't know the judge that well as first time we'd had him and and I asked him if he'd decided on a senate shit for the people and he mentioned then he thought about castration but I didn't and I didn't say anything else aside. I didn't know I didn't know what to think about him. I thought he was kind of kidding at that time. But when I heard it in the courtroom, I knew it. I was not kidding. Have you ever heard of have you ever been in a courtroom where you've had such an odd Choice given anything odder than that? No, I don't think so. No. I mean, I mean Right. I'm very interested in what your initial thoughts and reactions. Well, you know, I am kind of of relieved at the sentencing. I feel like a lot of the time most people who like report rape and even like get to a courtroom the person who they're accusing like likely doesn't get convicted and if they do get sentenced a lot of times it's a much lower sentence than one. Then one might think is appropriate. So like the fact that he said you can spend 30 years in jail, or I will cut off your balls. Uh-huh that like I kind of appreciate the severity of that sentencing and kind of like I felt like the judge sort of like took a moment to like just like make really clear for these guys like how how much you abuse and brutalize this woman and not letting them off the hook for it which happens every day. Yeah all the time. So my understanding standing is that surgical castration would lessen greatly the desire for the men to have sex or to get an erection. It wouldn't completely like get real like you can still like have sex once you've been surgically castrated is just like not as easy. I would assume seems more challenging. It seems like it would be a little tougher I think so, but I feel like the fact that he considers a man not being able to have sex anymore for the rest of his life as harshest sentence as being removed from like the female population where you can't physically harm Someone else, you know, like yeah, it still comes down to like these men being stripped of their sexual pleasure, which I think colors rape itself as like a sexual act and rape is not as I'm not yeah, you know, it's about power like they can still get out of prison and hurt women. They can hurt them. In other ways. They can rape them with other things. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so then you've got that whole conversation to dealing contend with yeah, you know, and it's it was just complicated. It really really really complicated. There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. No. So true crime like freaks me out and it makes me feel really uncomfortable. But like millions of people love it. Yeah, you uncomfortable about it the things that make me uncomfortable about it are the thing of the same reasons. Why you like it? Yeah to me. It makes me feel like it could happen to me. The only thing can happen to anybody and like whereas for you like thinking about it sort of makes you feel like you can kind of guard yourself against it. Yeah thinking about it makes like would just make me uh-huh. So like too crazy like it just reminds you of like how like vulnerable I feel like criminal is a good is a good starter True Crime podcast because not everything is so heavy and oppressive as our next show which I have brought a clip from my very very very first True Crime podcast is still number one in my heart. It's called sword and scale my God my boyfriend listens to this shit. I won't let him. I'm like I'm too freaked out. It's hosted by a guy named Mike beaudet the tagline of the show is the worst monsters are real. So this is like this. Is this is a heavy heavy heavy show like there are times where even I have to like take a break like this pause just heard was I know I'm trying to find a way to like even describe the show in like a not scary wave every episode is its own story. So like often cases that I've never heard of which is like a big appeal for me because once you like, you know, you've spent like x amount of years consuming every True Crime Story, you hit a point where you're like, I know Thing like I know every serial killer story. This is a good a good podcast for like stories and like Regional crimes that you've never ever heard of right and he just gives so much detail like he goes back and he gets archival footage. He has not won one tapes. He has interviews with people who are actually involved and the show is is edited and such like a sensational way. Like he's got the creepy music in the background and like his voice is kind of like I can't do an impression. But I mean, he's got a good True Crime podcast. Voice right? I don't know what that means in the case is that he finds are like often really really disturbing. This episode is a particular like heartbreaking just like tragic tragic murder is going to be very difficult to listen to It's very very intense. So just please listen with discretion got two clips in the first one. We're going to hear from my boo days. You can hear his Sensational True Crime podcast was great, but the very very first voice you're going to hear. Is that of King Coker and he's reported at a local NBC affiliate and he covered this story. It happened in a small town outside of Grand Rapids, Michigan. I was just about to say I know who can conquer is because Michigan, okay. Well, yeah, he's gonna walk us through what happened with this case. Kyra Kirky and his little brother Cameron and a little friend or outlining. We just out playing the mobile home park where they lived and doing what normal bullies do and Jamar Ian Longhorn who's 12 and who lived a couple blocks away didn't know them but basically came up and introduced himself to them and has to take a go play at the playground and unbeknownst to the little boys. He somehow had a knife. A kid large kitchen knife in the sand and the playground and while they were playing he pulled out the knife and just started stabbing kind of occur key. A 12 year old boy stabbing a nine-year-old boy in a playground they made so many new friends this summer. They accepted everybody into their group. This is Connor for Kirk. He's parents describing how that day. Connor was trying to befriend the boy that would kill him 10 minutes later. Everything fell apart. What's even worse is that it was premeditated? Yeah. He had hidden the knife in the sand. It's not clear to me whether he did it. Kind of while they were playing and you just sort of ditched it but at some point he pulled that knife out and started stabbing Connor and Connor and his little brother one running home and the little brother's trying to help Connor home and Connor end up dying on this the porch of his home Connors little brother Cameron was just seven years old when he watched his brother be killed he could do nothing but watch and then try to get Connor back home the two stumbled back before collapsing outside. Grab them up under his arm. And basically they ran together got all the way home, you know bleeding in the last thing you said was, you know, something like, you know, he told his parents he loved them and told his brother in love come and then he died. He was saying that he loves us and he kept trying to roll over so he could look at me and Jared the last thing I heard him say was when they were Wheeling him into the ambulance. He said Mama. It's so sad that stare sometimes like I feel like I feel like like the story can sometimes come at the expense of the people's lives. Do I'm saying like their personalized it sometimes I'm like, oh my God, like how does your family feel about this? Yeah, that's a point of discomfort for me as a true-crime listener because I do like I don't I try really hard not to lose sight of like the victims and their families and very often. I like think about what if it was like my family and like those are the thoughts that really like I have to pull myself out of Thinking like that. Yeah. I mean that's like really well like shakes me up but I do feel like it's it's to sit down and really consider like you're interested in these stories. It's really uncomfortable and like I don't want to make it seem like, you know, I love murder and death and everything is like fun it like, you know, like yeah, it does make me feel weird that these are things that like give me some sort of like Comfort when these are things that have given other people like the families like so much like pain and like suffering. And I mean already there like questions of like why and how right like what drives one child to like murder another child. So I mentioned that my goood a often includes 9 1 1 calls. I think they're fascinating to listen to sometimes they're too much for me to listen to that. I worry too much. Um, this one really really sticks out of my mind and I think it's pretty like you'll hear why so right now we're about to listen to the now on. I'll call that Jamari and makes after he stabs the little boy whose name was Connor. So he actually went to someone else's house asked to use my telephone called 9-1-1 and turned himself in and this is the call and County 9-1-1. Where's your emergency? See you have an emergency. This is the 12 year old Jamar Ian Longhorn calling 9-1-1 from a neighbor's cell phone. You did. Yeah, who wasn't you just stabbed? I don't know. I'm fed up with like you what fed up with night. Okay, did you stab yourself? No. No. Okay. What is your name? What is your name? You just killed somebody and he said that he wanted to die. And that's why he did it. He did it because he was hoping he might get the electric chair. Hurry up. Hurry up and come. I'm going to hell I don't care says Jamar Ian. cuz a lot the fuck I know this is the sad so sad. It's so sad. It's so sad. I mean, I just think about I dream Aryan and like what I would I'm sick. Yeah, he's 12 hmm. He's 12. He's fed up with life. He wants to die if he's fed up with life and he wants to die in general. I would say he probably has some like brain chemistry stuff. But also the first thing that I think of it that age is what is happening at home to say you're fed up with If that's a very specific you could have said anything else. It's such a specific thing to say and it's also like it's a thing that like black people say when they've been on the earth and just been like mistreated for a long time. You know, like I mean it he just sounds so like he sounds like a child but that sentiment is so old. Yeah, it's very yeah being that we re is like you yeah, I mean you don't you don't learn that for some years exactly. But for me as a black person, I'm listening to this little boy saying he's fed up with life. And he wants to die. Like you've seen in the movies and just like angry and like doesn't really have the words to describe it and like you always wonder about like context, you know, because for a person who doesn't think about this stuff a lot it's easy like, oh he's just a bad kid and he did a bad thing and that's that. Yeah, but like you have to wonder about like you were saying like what is the home life like is poverty involved, you know, is he abuse and verbal abuse like all of the things that like racism does to a child of color? Like I feel like there's a particular lens that We have to like look at cases like this with so as much as I love this genre. I think that one of the shortcomings is not thinking enough about race and how race plays into in fact, there's a lot of crimes, you know, so I'm always really wary of these stories like just becoming entertainment. It's kind of like cops like cops cops the TV show. Yeah. One of the big problems with cops is that it just showed a whole bunch of like bad black and brown criminals being caught in like justice being served and you know, like whether are they like, you know, like stealing from like a store or something, you know, it's not this stuff doesn't only happen because like these are bad because criminals are bad people, you know, like they're like systemic like reasons that crime looks and performs differently and like the black community. This is it so much. She liked the first see like the first clip like the stuff that you play me from Criminal. I was like, all right, like I get it. Uh-huh. This is like I can't do this like the night went like 9 1 1 calls. I Here I can't do that thing - it just makes me feel like like hearings the like the voice of the person or seeing crime scene photos or anything like that like that to me feels like it's just too close. It's too much for me too. Huh? It's hard. It's a lot to engage with. I know that I could not produce stories like this because it's really important for me to be able to like remove myself as needed and like if that's like my job just like bring you story after story after story has to haunt you yeah, it has to definitely couldn't I couldn't make it I couldn't my gosh. Well Tracy, thank you so much. Thank you. How can people find you on the internet? Well, my personal Twitter is broken with poverty. I tweet way too much sometimes about True Crime. I'm sure if you want to talk to me about your crime there you're very welcome to and you can follow my show and other one with heaven and Tracy add another round on Twitter and around on Facebook in another round at buzzfeed.com. Okay Samplers. We are going to take a quick break and when we get back, we'll talk to someone who makes a true crime podcast that even someone who can't really listen to the genre someone like myself can appreciate. This episode is brought to you by TaxACT. This tax season Tax Act has your back with their deduction maximizer and a hundred K accuracy guarantee. You can feel confident. You're getting the most out of tax season learn more about how to maximize your deductions and your refund and get 25% off federal and state filing attacks act.com gimlet. That's TaxACT.com gimlets 425 percent off federal and state filing welcome back to sampler. So I absolutely adore Tracy but I remain skeptical about the whole True Crime genre. I tried listening to a few different True Crime shows, but I always end up feeling like of what Yer and I can't get over this feeling in the pit of my stomach like this nagging thought in the back of my mind that even just my interest in these stories is somehow cruel and invasive but there is one true crime podcast that I I am addicted to because it's about a lot more than a brutal crime or a whodunit mystery. The name of the show is in the dark and it's a serialized podcast from American public media with eight episodes total each investigating a different part of the story and this show tackles. One of the most sensationalized True Crime subjects child abduction. My name is Jacob. My favorite food is steak. Favorite color is blue my favorite. I don't really have a favorite song. My favorite game is clue. My favorite thing to do most is watch football. My favorite sport is football on October 12th, 1989 a sixth grader named Jacob wetterling made this recording as part of a school project. 10 days later. He was kidnapped while riding his bike on a country road in a small town in central, Minnesota. It's a case that defied logic then and now it is a crime that has both captivated and frustrated minnesotans for the on the outskirts of his hometown of st. Joseph A young boys misses the most feared type of abduction won by a complete stranger. No Ransom note, no contact what happened to Jacob wetterling? I've been hearing the name Jacob wetterling ever since I moved to Minnesota 12 years ago. Jacobs kidnapping was a huge deal here. It changed the way people parented their children. It may kids afraid to go outside at night and it even led to a federal law that requires all states to maintain Registries of sex offenders. This one case this kidnapping of one eleven year old boy change the lives of millions of Americans. That's the show's host Madeline Baron. She's a Body, award-winning investigative journalist and she's reported on sensitive subjects like this before. In fact when she first came seriously interested in the wetterling case about a year and a half ago. She was covering another big Minnesota story clergy sex abuse, but when I reached out to Madeline, she explained that like me, she's not a fan of true crime stories. I don't watch horror movies. I don't read like, you know, the gruesome crime stories that are sometimes like in the paper on TV. That's just not a genre of things that I read. So I do think one thing that's been different for me is all of a sudden finding myself in a story that suede darker than I had ever even imagined it in a way that is so dark that you know at times I think wow. I don't know if I would I don't know. I don't know. I mean like I don't know if I would listen to parts of this and yeah parts of his story do get really dark, you know, there's kidnapping murder the sexual assault of a child. But the story doesn't stay in that dark place. I think the show is reporting stands out in the True Crime genre because it's not a sensational retelling of the crime and Madeline the host. She doesn't set out to solve the crime instead. She explains why the crime wasn't solved for 27 years and it's pretty amazing what Madeline and her team discover. Most of the wetterling case File is sealed but through nine months of investigative reporting. The team pieces together all the facts Madeline talks to Jacobs parents law enforcement and people who lived in Towns close to Jacob at one point. She speaks to a man named Chris who lived in a town near to Jacobs a town called Painesville a few years before Jacobs disappearance. When Chris was about 12 or 13 years old. He was out biking with a friend when a man jumped out of the dark and assaulted his friend looking back the details of that attack seemed similar to what During Jacobs Abduction the real frustration and Chris's voice about the way law enforcement handled these leads. It really stuck out to me. I was walking on Saint Germain in Saint Cloud. And a girl ran up to me. And handed me a piece of paper like a flyer with his picture on it. And she said this little boy was abducted in st. Joe was taken in st. Joe and I remember the I had like a flashback, you know, when she said that to me. I thought I mean it immediately it was a trigger for me. And I remember thinking you know, is this a high? I mean, I think it could it be is this possible? You know that how does how does this happen and did anyone from law enforcement on the wetterling case ever reach out and contact, you know, Chris told me he and his dad went to law enforcement themselves and gave a statement to the wetterling investigators about the Painesville assaults. He can't remember the names of the investigators. He was just a teenager at the time I had expectations that This was hot like my lead this this stuff in Paynesville. You can't ignore this guy's and I went in with that mentality because I thought well this is this is very similar. Jacob was on a bike. We were on bikes you just a lots of things. Chris said the investigators didn't seem all that interested. They didn't ask him to do a lineup or to look at any photos. In fact, they never called him again. I think we all kind of gave up on Taking a look. Why is your stuff like this? I find myself wanting to know why this case wasn't solved for so long and despite my queasiness about these types of things. I find myself obsessed with all the little details of this case, but I'm also feeling close to the people that it affects, you know, the boys who reported similar salts and how Jacobs family his mom and dad share so much more of themselves than I even expected. Here's some are free mark I'm a senior producer for the show followed by Madeline. We are constantly asking ourselves whether we are whether we're including the right information and whether we are avoiding that just sort of gratuitous sensationalism. Like are you doing something that connects people to what has happened and makes them understand or are you doing something that like makes it a spectacle? Right? So essentially what it's doing is the opposite it's like distancing and you're like gawking at it in early September 2016. 27 years after Jacobs disappearance. The investigation came to a very gruesome end a man named Danny Heinrich came forward and confessed to kidnapping sexually assaulting and killing Jacob. He lived in a town very close to Jacobs and had been investigated in connection with Jacobs disappearance, but for decades, he denied any involvement and law enforcement had said there wasn't enough evidence to charge him. But this October he He's due in court on charges of more than two dozen counts of child pornography possession. So a federal prosecutor offered Heinrich a plea deal confessed to killing Jacob lead them to Jacobs remains and only be prosecuted for one of the pornography charges Heinrich took the deal when Madeline recounts heinrichs confession on the podcast. She doesn't dwell on the details of the murder or the sexual assault. I asked her why we were trying to really turn the whole notion of True Crime, you know in a different direction, so to not focus on the criminal and you know, the horrible things that he did which I think is a genre of True Crime, you know, like what kind of monster would do this and let us look at all of the gross details and here are the photos and here is all the stuff the danger of that is that the can blind you to what the investigators are doing and by turning their I away from all the gruesome details Madeline and Samara reveals some major mistakes made by investigators and we're talking basically Basic police work routine procedures like neighborhood canvassing stuff that police have known how to do for years and years police work that if done properly at the time might have helped solve the case much more quickly instead of 27 years after Jacobs disappearance again, the show's producer Samara followed by Madeleine. What we were trying to do is raise these larger questions that hopefully people will be able to ask themselves everywhere no matter They are which are you know, how does law enforcement work? What does it mean for law enforcement to do a good job? Are they being held accountable? Yeah, like if you look at you know, what are the big unsolved cases in your community? What are the cases that are being described always as these like unbelievable Mysteries and what is really going on in those cases? And that's where like those reporters that is our job to look at those cases and to look past like the awful details and try to focus on what is actually happening beyond the mistakes made by law enforcement the show focuses on some major shifts in the National psyche at that time. Remember, this is the late 1980s. You've heard the phrase stranger danger a kind of national hysteria about children's safety that first took hold in late 70s and early 80s, but it's definitely something I remember from my own childhood throughout the 90s a handful of cases A stranger's abducting children. That's what set off this panel. In the dark asks what we should make of all this. So I think the one thing that people are still not perhaps fully facing when we're talking about child safety is a sexual abuse of children. And so there's a way in which when we talk about, you know, these bad men jumping out of bushes. It's a way to not talk about the people that are much more likely to be abusing kids which are people in the family the coach the priest the babysitter for Samara the show's producer. This is where the the conversation gets personal she has a young son. And while she says the show hasn't changed her parenting style. Sometimes the work follows her home. I think a lot about how to balance that freedom which sounds so lovely. I mean the way that even today the way that these kids now adults describe what their life was like in the early 80s, that's the kind of life. I want my son to have and yet there's I mean that there were the attitude was a bit Cavalier. And in some rare circumstances, there is a price to that and Patty wetterling Jacob's mother has been very overt about that. Her desire is not for people to give into fear of this stuff. She has always said that we shouldn't fear strangers and that we shouldn't be afraid of the dark and the kids shouldn't grow up with fear, but it is hard to come home at night after spending all day talking to people who have had terrible things happen to them. M and and try to be a chill parent that's that is difficult parenting is a theme that comes up on the show a lot here Samara with some help from Medellin. There's like a very typical cliche image of The Grieving parents their Martyrs and and they're Saints and the real people. I mean, they're actually integrate the wetterling's are actually real people and so we in some situations we put stuff on air that was a little uncomfortable moments where Jerry We're sort of fighting a little bit on her voice. If I didn't really we're talking about is like, you know competing narratives of the story, you know, like like, you know one person remembers at this way another person remembers it that way but we thought there's something in the exchange of that that tells you something about trauma. When Jacob first went missing the wetterling's were this United Team Patty and Jerry but as the investigation dragged on Patty and Jerry started to go their separate ways of it as each tried to make sense of what had happened. I was just all about talking to the cops and the investigation just give me the facts I can deal with facts Jeremy meanwhile had all of these these spiritual connections and psychics and he was was until about a month after that. I started doing that, right? So we wasn't home. It's like whatever, you know, if straight law enforcement isn't solving it, you know, maybe there's another method out there. So then I went down that road for a couple of years of craziness craziness. So it is it's crazy. He called it abductor hunting and they tell him to go out on a County Road and say something and turn around three times he do it. I mean it was like You do anything, you know and but meanwhile I was alone because he was out abductor hunting with these crazy. People had midnight Margie who became I called her midnight, Margie, or maybe you did she'd call and they'd talk all night long and she was just exaggerating. I didn't talk all night long. There was always people around here. There was there was craziness and investigation then about 11 o'clock at night, you know things would kind of Get a little quiet and I would talk with her about psychic stuff pretty much leads but wasn't all night long. But anyway, because they all wanted some of Jacob's clothing. They wanted a toy. They wanted some something and and I watched and Jerry would would package up his stuff and send it off. It was a desperation. And you know, how can you not do everything but it was so painful. That tape is so raw. And this is the thing that still bothered me. Even when these stories are handled delicately when the people in the story retain their dignity and their voices, you're still listening to all of their suffering and their trauma and it can feel cruel. So I asked Madeline and Samara. What's the point of all this? Here's Madeline. There is an importance to the act of witnessing and we see this, you know in big stories and we see this about war, you know that there are awful details like in Syria and it's not appropriate for us to say well that's hard for me to personally deal with therefore. I'm not going to read anything about Syria like as a culture that is not the right reaction. Like we need to pay attention to people's suffering and trauma, but I think the way that we pay attention to it is a different. And question and are we paying attention to it? Because you know were captivated by these gross details or are we paying attention to it? Because this is a really important thing to happen to this person and we want to you know, learn from it or it's important to know that it happened and to make changes so it doesn't happen again this focus on the way. We pay attention to the Jacob wetterling story is what makes the show work and telling the story on the radio through voices low. It with emotional Nuance, you know the kind of stuff that facts can't capture. Well that didn't hurt either again senior producer Samara. There's something incredibly intimate about radio the way you listen to it the way like the voices just echoing your head. It is a very personal way to listen and I think it's I think it's a medium that really lends itself to empathy empathy to me. That sounds like a a good place to start listening to recap the clips. You have heard on today's show the clips about the brutal rape and unusual sentencing came from Criminal and the heartbreaking murder a 9-1-1 call by a 12 year old boy came from sword and scale all the clips from the second half of the show were from the investigative podcast in the dark their final episode drops this week. So check them out. So I guess we have reached the end of The line sampler. I will spare you guys my version of Boys to Men and of the road because I think we can all live without it. But I hope that it goes without saying even though I'm going to say it right now that I appreciate you guys listening and supporting me and the sampler Team every single week. We absolutely could not have done any of the stuff not a fraction of The stuff that we were able to do with this show without you and I hope you guys will join me on my next adventure. This episode was produced by Sarah after Amon Kate Parkinson Morgan and myself. It was edited by a Nero Strasser and Peter Clowney. Our theme music was made by my couvillion. And our ad music was made by Mark Phillips additional music in the show was by Phil Stancil and Bobby Lord. The show was mixed by Matthew Bowl sampler is a production of gimlet media sampler. Was a production gimlet media.
"True Crime" is perhaps the most talked about genre in podcasting but it's also a type of podcast that Brittany just can't stomach. Tracy Clayton of Buzzfeed's Another Round joins the show to discuss her love of these shows. Plus, Brittany talks to the creators of the only true crime podcast she's been able to enjoy. And a warning: since this episode is about true crime, the content may be disturbing to some listeners. There will be descriptions of sexual assault and violent crime, so please proceed with caution. Episode #31 features clips from the following shows (please click below for hyperlink to episodes):  Sword & Scale, Episode 61  Criminal, Episode 39  In the Dark by American Public Media The Facts:  This episode was produced by Sarah Abdurrahman, Kate Parkinson-Morgan and Brittany Luse. It was edited by Annie-Rose Strasser and Peter Clowney Our theme music was made by Micah Vellian and our ad music was made by Mark Phillips. Additional music in the show was by Phil Stancil and Bobby Lord. The show was mixed by Matthew Boll. Sampler is a production of Gimlet Media. Our Sponsor:  Blue Apron (Get your first two meals for free using http://www.blueapron.com/Sampler)  Audible (Go to http://www.Audible.com/Sampler to get your first book free!) 