Hey, I can listeners and welcome to the second episode of blessed are the binary Breakers. This is your host Avery Smith and I am super excited about this episode. I met Willow hoving a year and a half ago when she Colette. A workshop about welcoming trans people and to Faith communities with me Willow is a very intelligent caring person who is just so much fun to be around. She and I recorded this interview a couple weeks ago for my apartment on Louisville seminaries campus. Let's get into it listeners you are in for a treat. I would invite you will owe to just you know, say hello and tell the listeners whatever you think they should Yeah, okay. I am Willow hoving. I'm a trans woman. I'm 56 years old and it's exciting to be here on this campus Because 25 years ago. I also was a student here some other things to know about me. I work as a software developer. I am also the parent of 22 year-old grandson and Let's start with that. Yeah, that's plenty to start with so you only just came out a few years ago as trans. And so that's yeah. Yeah, I decided at the ripe old age of 52 and a half that it was it was time. Yeah for me to get at first. I framed it as I'm going to look into this and see what's involved. But but then I'm pretty quickly became clear to me that that transitioning and moving into living full-time as a woman was was what I was supposed to be doing. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm I'm a late bloomer in terms of coming to that point. I'm also a late bloomer in terms of my involvement with the church. I didn't become a regular churchgoer until I was about 25 was that before or after Seminary? Well, so I was in a different program a different graduate program in Boulder, Colorado and Somehow found my way to lovely Presbyterian Church there became quickly very involved and very interested in Bible and Theology and the pastor there kind of encouraged me to look at going the seminarian and a few years later. That's where I ended up before you found that church. What was what was the Childhood like and your family background, I grew up in the 1960s and 70s in Salt Lake City and I was pretty much unchurched what I was three or four years old. My mom decided that it would be convenient for me to be able to say that I had a church that I went to. Okay, and so we spent two or three years and I was mostly they're in there. They're in their preschool Christian education program at the Unitarian Church in Salt Lake, but I still would consider myself as having been brought up unchurched. Okay? Yeah. I'm really I'm really not sure. I don't have a good narrative for how I found my way into that Presbyterian Church. Yeah in Boulder part of Of it was one of my colleagues in graduate school who we later figured out is the second cousin of mine. Oh, wow. He saw something in me. That was either searching for something or that or saw that I would be fertile Grant fertile ground and and planted some seeds that really quickly took off. Would you agree with that sort of him seeing you searching for something. Where you at that point? Do you feel like oh, I think I've been searching for things all my life at some point in this interview. I want to say that for most for all of my life. I've really lived with John scalzi calls it the lowest difficulty settings in The Game of Life. Ah, you know, I was assigned male at Birth I was When I started be aware of romantic and sexual orientation because I was living as male. I appeared straight. Yeah, I was white raised in a overwhelmingly white culture middle class educated parents and grandparents, you know, so so all the Privileges all II had the all the Privileges across the board. And there were a lot of ways in which I was different from other people around me for for for my first six years. I was raised by a single mother if you think that being a single mother in Utah in the early 60s was easy you'd be wrong and she she just did wonderfully under challenging circumstances, but I think it's safe to say that. I never ever ever. Saw myself as one of the boys. Okay. I was not like any of the other boys and frankly. I didn't I really didn't enjoy their company. I wasn't like them and I didn't want to be like them. Yeah, you know in contrast with a lot of personal narratives that I hear from trans women roughly my age. I wasn't intensely aware as a child of being prey. You know, I just knew I was different and and all through elementary and middle school. You know, I was just the weird kid. Yeah. Oh, I relate to that. You know, there were there were a few people who tossed the word queer at me, but mostly it was sort of a generic you're different from us. Your listeners can't see because it's not a visual medium is my curly hair. Yeah, that's mostly what I got teased about. Really? Yeah, just your curls. Like in the sixth grade, there was there was one kid who just mercilessly teased me calling me curly Luke. Oh my gosh what an insult and I was going to tell you I love your curls. Well, and I do too. Yeah. Now let's let's go ahead and fast forward so far. So I graduated high school. I went to I did my undergraduate work in Southern, California. Went on to graduate school and ended up in Boulder really wonderful program. But as as I moved into adulthood one of the things that I started to notice that really kind of puzzled me was I really really did not want to work with a therapist who wasn't a woman or have work with a physician. Who wasn't a woman to the extent that being a student in scientific field allowed it. My preference was was to hang socially with with women, right? I did have in my undergraduate and graduate years some some really dear friends who are male, but I would have been just as happy if just had all seen. Yeah, it's yeah. Starting in childhood and then, you know developing into adulthood there would be these little things that I would notice the were like. Oh, okay. That's another way in which I'm not yeah typical. Yeah. So I was in this Ph.D program in Colorado and I was pretty uncomfortable and unhappy with my life and maybe that's maybe that's what what my friend who turned out to be a second cousin saw, you know, as soon as I got involved with that church in Boulder. I just really dug deep into scripture and Theology and the history of the church and I was just fascinated by it. And so I actually ended up deciding That I'd go ahead and finish that degree. But then I applied to come to Louisville Presbyterian Seminary. You know, I think initially my thought was was that I could go into pastoring or maybe Academia as it turned out. That's that's not how things worked out. But but it did bring me here and I also learned about myself that Changing geography and changing academic fields did not relieve me of that sense of not being comfortable with my life. Yeah. So a couple of things happened when when I got to Louisville what just to give a time frame was that what decade was that? Sort of? Yeah. So I arrived in Louisville in August of 1992. Okay two years before I was born right, right. So a couple of things happened when I got Here one was that I developed a really really strong and pretty intense friendship with one of the other students who started at the same time. I still value having had that friendship. Yeah, but one of the things that she used to jokingly say was was in and she so she was assigned female. At Birth and in some ways but not always gender a typical. Okay, and the the way that the phrase that she had to describe that was I missed out on that course in girl indoctrination school. Oh my gosh, that's relatable. And and what I what I started to realize was I had missed out on just about all of boy indoctrination School. And I realized that I was pretty glad. Yeah, you didn't miss out on too much. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know the this list of things about my life that puzzled me kind of started to stack up and F at some point after I'd been here for for about two years. So so we're now in 1994 was the very very first time that the possibility occurred to me, you know, I might be a trans woman now contrary to current transgender vocabulary Orthodoxy. Yeah, that really was tied up in what I was noticing about my who I was romantic clay and physically attracted to okay to to be blunt all the people. I found myself attracted to more masculine of Center lesbians. Haha. That's like What the hell? No. Yeah. So if you're supposed to be a man and you're attracted to lesbians who yeah, yeah, I can imagine that was very confusing. It was awfully confused. Yeah, and so so I can find it in this friend. You know, I think I'm looking at the possibility that I might be a lesbian who was assigned male at Birth and and actually I think I use that horrible phrase trapped. In the body of the man, which is a phrase. I don't like it turned out that that she had come here from women's studies program. That was at the time and still is notoriously trans exclusionary. That was pretty much the end of our friendship. Yeah. She was not happy with that. Well, she was not happy with that and and her message to me was that's not a thing. Yeah, there is no such thing as that. But and I will tell you I still feel that loss. Yeah, and I was also in in therapy at the time and I brought it up with the therapist I was seeing and he didn't he didn't shut it shut it down in terms of know that can't possibly be true his his message was not know. That's an impossible identity. His message was you've got enough going on in your life and that is An awful hard road to try to walk down. Okay, and I don't think he was wrong. Okay. I mean, I think that that if I had tried pursuing transition at that time, it would have been a really difficult and yeah, I certainly would be in a very very different place today. I don't I don't think that I would have had the kind of support that I have had. And the past four and a half years and so I really kind of put it on the Shelf. Yeah, and then a whole bunch of stuff happened in my life. I did get married and we had a child that marriage ended pretty quickly and pretty shortly after something else that was going on was I had come into the Seminary program already really pretty burned out on academic on academics. Yeah, and so You know, I stuck around for several years and left, you know left after six years with the two-year degree instead of yeah, the three-year degree that that I'd come for but I the the whole idea of maybe being trans woman. First of all had I'd only gotten to the point where I considered it as sort of a theoretical possibility. Okay, and second of all I was now. A single parent. Yeah and raising a kid and in the they're real world of work for for the first time in my life and I really kind of put it on the shelf and it stayed on the shelf for about 20 years. It's a long time. Well, I think that I differ from a lot of the trans folks. I know in that I I was never really clearly consciously aware of dysphoria of being intensely and clearly uncomfortable with parts of my body or or with aspects of how I lived. I was just uncomfortable with everything somebody who I'm at a couple of years later who is still a very good friend came up with the perfect metaphor. She said when I first met you it was like meeting somebody who spent every day walking around in a sandpaper suit, you know, just everything about life was uncomfortable and she said that to me a couple of years ago after Ryan started transitioning her point was that I no longer was like that. Wow so much changed for me starting just with the with the decision. Yeah. I'm going to do this. But then as I started to make small changes and what I was wearing and you know, God bless estrogen from from my perspective. Yeah being able to start on Androgen suppressors and start introducing a sturgeon in into my system made a world of difference for for my Outlook. And so there's a trans writer named Sam Dylan Finch who I think had a somewhat similar experience and talks about gender Euphoria. Yeah rather than dysphoria. I love that so much. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's not so much that I got rid of things specific things that I was uncomfortable with but started discovering things that hadn't known were possible that that were just so delightful and I think it's so important to Get that narrative out there that being trans isn't only about like suffering and hating yourself and stuff. It's also about finding, you know, joy, and again largely thanks to all of the Privileges that I walked into life with that road has been pretty easy for me. One of the things that happened towards the end of my time at the Seminary. Was that I got connected up with a tiny tiny Lutheran Church here in town and and ELCA congregation. It's unlike any any other congregation. I think I've been exposed to are they still around? Well, so you want to give them a shout out I do I do for third Lutheran Church have to visit them. Oh God, we would welcome you yeah. And actually they invited me to come teach their adult Sunday school class. How cool yeah, I still teach that Sunday school class every wow. Wow, I have to come and see that and what I didn't know about them was not more than two years earlier before I walk through the door that congregation had made the decision to sign on. With what in the ELCA is designated reconciling and Christ. Okay, roughly equivalent to more like more like Presbyterians that in part was what was responsible for their sort of difficult past real situation because the bishop at the time was strongly anti gay not a fan of not not a fan and wants the congregation had made made. That decision. Well, first of all, there were some members who left the sure but mostly there was a complete withdrawal of support especially in terms of calling a new pastor. Yeah from from the Senate and you know, frankly the impression that I have was that that Bishop expected that the congregation would close its doors within a couple of of years and kind of fall apart and and there was you know, what I will say is that that congregation has been two years from closing its doors for 25 years. So they're hanging in there. We've had some really wonderful pastoral leadership the ELCA decided as late as 2009 that it would be. Okay, right or partnered gay people. To be rostered clergy. Okay, and one of our members who's been clear about his call to Ministry since he was seven years old. I was finally able to be ordained. Oh good and he's our current serving past or so. So we're pastored by a married gay man. We have two members who are ELCA seminarians? Okay. Both of whom are gay men. Oh, wow. We have LG and be people in congregational leadership and the adult Sunday school is taught by a tea person. Yeah, it's great and it's really really a wonderfully affirming Place. Yeah, and I don't I don't think that I would have been as comfortable transitioning had I not been involved. You know long-term involved with a congregation that you know, there was never any doubt in my mind that that my transition was going to be recognized and accepted and welcomed. It's beautiful. I'm so glad you had that. Well, I'm deeply deeply grateful and our pastor was one of the first people I came out to it was the first place that I went. Out in public in a skirt. And yeah there if there were a few raised eyebrows, but they were just wondering what was going on because I haven't made it made a big announcement. So not judgmental just kind of absolutely not judgmental just curious and you know, one of the high points of the past couple of years was when we did a recognition of name. Right. Yeah in the congregation on baptism of Christ Sunday two years ago. That's awesome. All right, that's always going to be a treasured memory. What about that was so special for you part of it was just knowing that a faith community that has been an important part of my life and my child's life for two decades was a place where I was fully affirmed and welcomed and celebrated and you know, it was constructed as an affirmation of baptism. Yeah, but one of my dear friends from the congregation stood up with me along with my son, they weren't baptismal sponsors. But but they kind of play that that's a mall and and when my friend Kristen As as part of part of that letter G said something about recognizing will out as as the strong beautiful woman. She is. You know, I'm getting a little weepy just think yeah, so I've been very very blessed to to have that Community of Faith were where I'm affirmed. Yeah. I'm so happy you have that you hands. I wish every trans person had that. Yeah, and I'm like a lot of trans people. I never had any exposure to a community of Faith where I Wouldn't have been affirmed, you know, the the Presbyterian congregation in Colorado that I initially became an involved in I don't think had an official position on ordination of gay people the man who was the pastor there who baptized me and later encouraged me to go to Seminary. He you know, that that debate Within in the PC USA was just really kind of heating up. Yeah what he had a beautiful way of expressing it. There's a lot of things in understanding scripture. He said that I'm not a hundred percent sure about and I am the first to admit that I might well be wrong. Yeah, but if there's something that I might be wrong about I would like to err on the side of Grace That is beautiful. It's beautiful and and you know, it's been been an important thing to hold onto not not only in the context of queer people being accepted within the church, but all of the controversies that church people get into all the little theological debate. Yeah. This is like to have you know, it's a very useful hermeneutic. Yes, okay if I'm going to make a mistake, let's Let me make it on the side of my side of Grace. Yeah, another thing that that has been a real gift to me a phrase that I've held onto was actually something that when I first came to Seminary here on an exploratory we yet I was just looking into it. Yeah, Gene March who was the dean of the time and taught to the group of us about How do you understand your vocation and and how does that fit into how the the church both institutional and and metaphysically him handles vocation and and he said one thing to ask yourself is what are the things that I can't not do the things that I would be doing even if nobody paid me. Do them even if people told me that I shouldn't be doing them and and of course, you know, what are the life enriching things that you can't not do and some words in there about you know, if a whole lot of people in your Community of Faith and and in your life were telling you not to do something at least listen. Yeah reflect on. Yeah. Yeah, but when it when it got to the point that I had This is this is what five years ago. Yeah, 2014 when I got to the point it is time for me to pick back up off the shelf the idea that I might be a trans person and and to start asking what would be involved in walking down that road. I started to ask. Is this something that I can't not do yeah and 20 years before that. It hadn't been a camp not do thing. And as something else that that had happened maybe a couple of years earlier. I had been diagnosed with an autoimmune disease and that meant some some lifestyle changes for me. And also maybe it was just as simple as turning 50, but I woke up one morning and and I said, you know, I'm old enough that I just really don't give a hoot what anybody thinks of how I look or how I dress or you know, I am done worrying about other people's impressions of yeah, and so a couple of years later it became very easy to say. Well, I'm already not worrying about other people's superficial impressions of me. So What's going to what is going to make my life? Comfortable for ones and that ended up being the road that I went down and you know in retrospect that therapist who told me in 1994 whenever it was that going down the road of transition. What would be hard? Yeah, he was absolutely right sure because a whole lot of water passed under passed under the metaphorical bridge between 1994 and and 2014. Yeah. Yeah. A whole lot of awareness of trans people and acceptance more acceptance developed in that time. And so it really was relatively painless. You know, I was able to find the medical assistance that I needed. You know, I have with a couple of just small irritations sure aside aside from those I have had no adverse Health Care experiences. That's really really cool. That's great. Well, it's really cool. I also recognize that it's highly unusual. Yeah. I mean, you know, everything has been so easy. I worried about coming out in my workplace. It's one County south and in a relatively conservative area and I spent a couple of years really anguishing because I would kind of listen to side conversations between people who were in adjoining cubicles. And you know, when the Indiana passed its religious freedom. Yeah law and there was backlash there were there were a couple of people in a Adjoining cubicles who were pretty outraged at the backlash, of course and and my department had who's now my boss. I knew was a fairly conservative Catholic person. Okay, so I was really really concerned. Yeah, and I had absolutely no reason to be that workplace handled my transition really really well. Now I did some work and to help set that gk8 them and to educate them but they took the information that I helped them find and really ran with it and I haven't had anybody give me any kind of site I at that workplace. That's really awesome. Yeah, I feel like that's one of the big reasons why workplaces has and schools and families need to sort of do the work and like make their stance clear before someone comes out because like it's a little different but with my family, they're more like my parents are conservative and Catholic and so like I had no clue how they were going to handle me coming out as queer because we just never talked about it. I didn't know if they felt negatively or partly, you know, there was just no knowledge. So like families and workplaces. They should somehow make the message clear that if someone is going to come out It will be received well, because then you wouldn't have had to spend those years anguishing. Yeah, I'll tell you I would have been more productive for those years to yeah. Yeah, if you didn't have to have that worry hanging over. Yeah. Yeah. I've often joked that if I ever wrote wrote an autobiography the title would be if you had told me then yeah, if you had told me when I was 14 and 12 or 14 in years old that well that I'd be a happy woman. Yeah, I would have just shaking my head because because a I didn't have the vocabulary sure you should be you know, all throughout my adolescent years. I think I would have had a hard time believing that I was ever going to be happy. Wow, and that's that's that's for a variety of reasons, but I I think that part of it was deeply deeply deeply buried understanding that I wasn't living that I wasn't living my truth. Yeah, even though I didn't know what that truth was yet. Do you feel like you're living your truth now? Yeah, I am. Yeah, I am. I think that I also think that I have some more of that truth to discover for sure. Hopefully we all do yeah. Yeah. One thing that I've noticed was fairly early on after having decided to pursue transition. I kind of had some preconceptions about sort of what what my transition goals were going to be and like I had some I had some pretty clear ideas about what my clothing style was going to be. Okay, and those have turned out to be wrong. Initially, I didn't really picture myself wearing skirts and dresses but boy the day I put on my first skirt and especially the day that I wore that skirt to church. It was so clear to me that that's what I was supposed to be wearing. That's awesome that sort of unexpected rightness to yeah. And and again, it's that that euphoria that you sort of lived without it, but you would have missed out on that that feeling of Yeah. Yeah, right - yeah. Yeah, exactly and like God doesn't intend us to just kind of live without things that are joyful like to just sort of have that neutral life. We're caught a full life. Yeah that that that reminds me of something but that Justin Tanis talks about yeah, which that guy yeah just finished reading this. Oh one of you through wonderful, is that available now? Yes. Oh, Just sign up for listeners transgender a book by Justin Tanis from like 2003. I think used to be like a hundred and thirty bucks to buy because it was out of print. It's now like 23 bucks. So it's back in print y'all. Yeah just in tennis. Yeah talks talks about that being and living as a trans person and living in to that truth is just as much a calling a vocation from God. Yes. As is a ministerial vocation and yeah, I believe that a hundred percent and and many of those and and that ties back in with the you know, what can't you not do well. I I having now lived as myself for the first time in in 50-odd years. I could I can't go back. Yeah. Yeah after you've seen what Euphoria is like a few after you've seen what full life. I was like, yeah would be cruel of anyone to try and push you back into something. Yeah, and I'm I'm truly blessed that I don't have anybody in my life telling you who would tell me that now the early on in transition the other source of stress for me was going to be how will my parents deal with it? And how is my kid going to deal with it at the time? If my son was 17 18 and my my parents actually lived lived with us, okay during during his school years. So it was the four of us in the house together and I first talked to my to my kid and nobody has been a bigger booster all the way along but he was Really really really concerned about how they would deal with it. I think that both of us had a misimpression of how conservative yeah, they were. Yeah, I got to say my relationship with them has blossomed and become infinitely richer. Yeah. I think that they might want articulate it this way sure but I think they can see my life is is better and more authentic and all those all those words. Yeah, but he he made me promise not to have that talk with them while he was in the house. Okay, and I have that conversation with them and went and picked him up from the from the youth group activity that he was involved in and he said are they still there? Because his fear was was that they would pack their bags and leave. Yeah, which was Which was completely unfounded but yeah, and they struggled a little bit but only because they didn't yet have the information yet. Not not because they were hostile and and the real switching Point especially for my mom was the day that I first went to work as Willow and came home and was able to report to her that that had gone had gone. Well, it was like it it through. A switch for her and the very next night. She called me up and said on the Christmas cards that we send out this year to family. Can I use your new name? Yeah, that's sweet. Yeah, and the extended family has by and large been been supportive to which I mean, I don't know why all of this surprised me but it did. Well there's it's unfortunate but there are so many stories where things go horribly wrong. I mean that was my expectation with my Only two that I would deal with a lot more hostility than I have and it goes back again to like, you know people who would potentially be supportive should sort of broadcast that before the issue arises. Yeah, so that those of us who are thinking of coming out don't have to be afraid to do so. Yeah because yeah, your brain will just your imagination goes wild when you're thinking of coming out, you know, all the stories of it going wrong and yeah rejection and that's all you can think about even like I like to think of myself as an optimist, but when it came to coming out, I was thinking worst-case scenarios for every absolutely absolutely and I have never been more happy to be proven wrong. Yeah, for sure. Yeah for a while. I've I've been kind of working in the back of my mind on a Facebook post that I think I really want to put out there that that I would want to Rs2, all of the people. I was in seminary with all the people. I know who were working pastors and it goes something like this someday soon. Somebody's going to walk you to your office and I might be a member of your congregation who says I think I'm trans or it might be a member of your congregation to says my son keeps insisting that he's not a boy or my daughter keeps insisting that she's not a boy or a girl. Yeah or somebody's going to walk through your front doors. Who you Kwok as being visibly trans gender who's a stranger to the congregation. Are you ready? Yeah, you know what resources do you have at your fingertips to to be able to answer their questions? And what are you doing? What are you and your congregation doing today? To make that person feel welcome and to make it clear to people who have walked through the door yet that they too will be welcome. You should definitely make that poster. Yeah, and and you know, I'm not a huge out on the front lines activist. But yeah, there was this election thing a little over two years ago. Yep. There was that sadly and and frankly it was that that really kicked me into gear and terms of going ahead and getting my name change and coming out at work because I was thinking okay. What what am I going to do to to resist this? Well, one thing that I knew I could do would be to just show up at that workplace visibly trans. Yeah. Just living your life is just just distance, you know, none of the people I work with now. Can ever say well I've never met a trans person. Yeah that it doesn't affect their life or people they know. Yeah, and yeah, I'm I hope they can see the yes, I'm trans and I am also a productive member of society and yeah and not not some strange mythical creature. Yeah. Now the one thing we haven't talked about is what it's like being a trans person. Who is the parent of the transparent. Yeah. Because you came out to your son. How long after that was it that he came out to you. It was a couple of weeks or maybe a couple of months, but no more than a couple of months after I had that conversation with my parents. And you know maybe part of it was that he saw that no, they didn't pack their bags and go home. That's that's when he came out to us. You know, I'll be honest. They've been a lot better about my parents have been a lot better about name and pronouns with me than they are with him. Huh. The other thing that is true about both. My parents is there in Early 80s. Yeah, so so they're certainly they don't hit hundred percent even on my knee on my name or pronouns. I'm not really all that bothered by that. Okay. Yeah, I'm just happy they're trying. Yes, you know that they're accepting, you know, they're trying. Yeah, so the mistakes aren't as painful and in the same way that You know, my co-workers will. Occasionally slip, you know because they knew me for six or seven years as this person with that name and that beard and those pronouns and you know verbal habit is a strong thing. Yeah. Well and pardon my my blue language for a minute, but you know, I have always said the only thing that's ever going to bother me is Britt asshole Lori with the exception of one cousin. I have not encountered that and he's always been an ASL and assholes no no Shockers. Yeah, so prized a so-so. No, it didn't come as a surprise. You know, I've just I keep saying it but it's true. I've been incredibly lucky and Incredibly blessed all the way along. Yeah, that's I don't know about you but sometimes when I feel like I've I've been lucky I feel bad about that and I always try to remind myself. It's a good thing that I've encountered this acceptance. The goal isn't to like play some sort of Oppression Olympics where I should want to be, you know rejected and stuff. It's the goal is to bring other all trans people up to that level of acceptance exact everyone's well and and it motivates me to do things like to reach out to to to the working pastors. I know. Say this has been so wonderful for me. I really would like you to be equipped to be able to extend the same. Welcome so it can be wonderful for others to yeah. Yeah, it's kind of a motivator and you know, we were talking earlier about what's my my personal relationship with with the Divine. Yeah. I guess I would say it's primarily gratitude based. Yeah, I recognize. Eyes from the get-go that all good things come from God. Yeah. I also recognize just from experience that my life goes a whole lot smoother the more I can recognize and photograph and focus on those good things and my gratitude for them. So so my son getting back to him he has always as soon as I was out to my parents, he has consistently referred referred to me and introduced me as Mom and I know different different people in different families have have different ways of negotiating around that the the fact that my ex and I live apart makes it a little bit easier because you know, no matter which house he's in when he As hey mom, there's only one person who's going to answer. Yeah on the other hand. He also he also has the disadvantage of getting caught into endless go ask your mother lives. And you know, I hope I've been reasonably good about talking about him as as my son and getting the pronouns right and getting the name, right? And you know, I'll be honest and a parent I think would have some concerns about well, what what is my kid's life going to be like, yeah. Yeah, I'll be there if he needs me. I think that's my Mom's main hang-up. A lot of times with me being non-binary is just but what will people think like will it affect your ability to get jobs and things like that especially being like I guess if I stayed on testosterone long enough and like wore the right clothes and did the right things I could pass as a man, but I have no desire to do that. You may give me a leg up and certain kinds of careers. But I do not want to do that. And I think that's part of her concern is because I want to be visibly queer that worried that we'll what if someone harasses you for it or even give you a job for it. And so yeah, I think that's you have such a unique Viewpoint being trans yourself and also having a chance child to kind of have those thoughts about well and you know, I'm not a typical any And and maybe that that goes all the way back to you know, third grade being kind of proud of being the weird. Yeah, but I'm sure pretty happy with where I am right now and I'm really really grateful to have gotten rid of that sandpaper suit. Yeah. Sure. No one no one no one should live like that. Nobody should have to live like that. And and certainly nobody should have to live surrounded by people who want that for them. Here's to a future where everyone can be free of those sandpaper suits and absolutely absolutely love their true selves and experience Euphoria and freedom and and live lives that can be full of gratitude ready to wrap up. Yeah. I just want to thank you for the Tation to absolutely. I want to thank you so very much accepting the invitation. Like you said, you're not a typical anything the kind of goal of this podcast is to get as big a variety of stories as we can and I thought yours would be a great starting point well and yeah going back to that that Facebook post that I want to write. I think that something that is so important for sis straight people to know. No, I call them Muggles then like all this. Yeah, what I what I would really love for all the mughals to now it is that no to trans people have exactly the same pathway and my uncles I'm gonna start using that someone yelled at me on Facebook a while ago for saying says heads so I'm gonna change the mughals. Yeah. Well and I like it because what does that make us but Wizards? I think the way I ended the other one was like go out there and break some binaries or something. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely be a blessing to the world with your life.
Join me and Willow Hovingh as she shares her experiences as a trans woman transitioning in her fifties. Coming out has brought Willow an abundance of blessings in her personal well-being, her work life and church life, and in her relationships with friends and family, including her trans son. Talking points: - Willow introduces herself -- a "late bloomer" who came out at 52 (0:00 - 3:20) - Growing up unchurched (3:21 - 4:10) - Joining a church, "searching for something" (4:11 - 4:59) - The "lowest difficulty settings" in the game of life, but still different, "the weird kid" (5:00 - 9:30) - Enrolling at Louisville Seminary, first inklings of being trans put on the shelf for 20 years (9:31 - 16:15) - Willow's "sandpaper suit;" everything uncomfortable (16:16 - 17:20)  - "God bless estrogen" -- starting her transition and discovering gender euphoria! (17:21 - 18:49) - Supported by her long-time church, rich in LGBT ministers (18:50 - 23:17) - The power of a recognition of name-change rite (23:18 - 25:27) - Erring on the side of grace (25:28 - 26:44) - Gender and calling: what are the things that you can't not do? (26:45 - 28:45) - Ready to come out: "I don't give a hoot"; medical experiences; coming out at work (28:46 - 32:36) - "If you had told me then" - a happy woman (32:37 - 35:55) - Justin Tanis' book and the idea of gender as calling; "I can't go back" (35:56 - 37:26) - Coming out to her kid and her parents; enriched relationships (37:27 - 40:57)  - Willow's message for pastors: "Are you ready?" (40:58 - 42:31)  - Resistance through being visible (42:32 - 43:41) - Parenting a trans person (43:42 - 44:37) - It's okay to make mistakes (44:38 - 45:55) - Focusing on blessings and gratitude (45:56 - 47:27) - Willow and her son support each other (47:28 - 49:42) - Free from that sandpaper suit (49:43 - 50:42) - A message for the muggles (cis straight folks) (50:43 - 52:08) 