This episode is brought to you by TaxACT. This tax season Tax Act has your back with their deduction maximizer and a hundred K accuracy guarantee. You can feel confident. You're getting the most out of tax season learn more about how to maximize your deductions and your refund and get 25% off federal and state filing attacks act.com gimlet. That's TaxACT.com gimlet for 25% sent off federal and state filing. Okay. So the date is Sunday, November 2nd 1997. It's roughly two weeks before my 10th birthday that Sunday was unlike all the rest of them because that Sunday night was a broadcast of an updated version of Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella. I sat in church all that Sunday just like wriggling with joy because I knew that later on tonight. I was gonna be able to see Brandi as Cinderella and Whitney, Houston. And as the Fairy Godmother, so I'm sitting in the living room with my family and immediately on the screen Whitney Houston. She setting up the prologue. She's getting a started for a plain yellow pumpkin to become old and carrot him, but I'm still sitting there. Like where is Brandi? I need to see Brandi about five or so minutes into the broadcast. Cast like the scene opens up like it's obviously some sort of like magical Fairytale Land and there's like all these people all different races and ethnicities and ages because they did the whole thing colorblind casting you hear this music start and you know something about to happen and then you see Brandi who still has all of her micro braids like she's in this very talented. She has all of her micro braids. She starts singing The Sweetest Sounds which is like the very first song. We're like she and Prince Charming are both seeing separately and found each other yet, but they're saying separately about like pining for their true. Love never here. I stitched inside my head. I mean, I had never seen a black Disney princess before let alone a black Cinderella and it Just blew my mind. I wasn't used to seeing like people that resemble me like little black girls as like the center of a story and it's like, I mean, it's like a night that I couldn't possibly forget. I didn't have to forget it because I made my parents tape it. I watched it probably at least every week for a year or so looking back on it. I can recognize it as the first time that I really felt represented in the media. From gimlet media this is sampler. And I'm your host Brittany loose so falls upon us yet again. And for many of you that means like leaves are changing and your kids are going back to school and it's pumpkin spice Time full disclosure. I actually I actually like pumpkin spice flavor things. But for me, you know, just the fun-loving woman that I am my focus every fall returns to to representation in the media It's like we have a new site of fall TV shows beginning of award season and it gets me thinking about you know, whether things in Hollywood are actually getting any better. And so I started looking for podcasts that might have some answers and I was so excited to come across this new podcast called represent. It's hosted by Aisha Harris who is a longtime culture writer. It's late and it's really one of the only shows that I found that focuses solely. Leon film and TV creators who typically are the people who get like the token treatment in Hollywood, you know, I mean like LGBT people people of color women or any combination of those things. Like Aisha actually does a deep dive into them their craft and what they're interested in, you know, while some shows kind of dance around difficult topics Aisha really faces them head-on and her guests don't shy away from taking a stance on things either like, you know, say A cisgender male actors playing trans woman or cross-racial voiceovers. I'm Asha Harris a culture writer for slate and I'm excited to be your guide through the safe space of discussion questioning and perhaps the occasional venting about Hollywood and how it treats those of us who don't happen to be straight white dudes. And that's one of the reasons why I like Aisha. She just puts it right out there. So I figured that she would be my perfect closed for today to help guide you guys through some of The best podcast moments about the topic of representation. So today with me in the studio. We have staff writer at slate.com and also the host of the newly launched represent podcast Aisha Harris. Hi. Thank you for having me. Welcome to Sam for Aisha. Thanks for the first podcast. I want to talk to you about today is actually your own represent. Could you walk me through what you think the podcast is about? Sure, the the podcast is a show in which I explore film and TV through the perspective of anyone who's not a straight white guy essentially and in for me part of it was I didn't want to just focus on black film and TV. I think it's easy for me to focus on that just because that is my that's what I know the best because I'm base because I am a black woman. Yeah, but I wanted to you know, not limit myself so much. Be able to talk with other people who are you know, identify as queer or LGBT and I also want to talk very deeply about what they do and how it relates to representation. Like the meaty big part of the show is the sit down with someone who works in the industry who is Falls within and typically underrepresented group. So one of those people you talked to was somebody that I've admired for a long time. Who spoke really candidly with you about something that recently just didn't work out for him. And that's Larry Wilmore. Yeah, really quickly. Larry Wilmore was the host of the nightly show on Comedy Central which was just recently cancelled and you guys were having this phone conversation about what went wrong and where he feels like viewers and the network may have let him down. So we really felt like a nice well-oiled machine. We just felt like we weren't getting all the viewers who like, you know for that. Very frustrating, you know, it's part of Television. We're not the only show that has had that happen. It's it's that type of thing can happen. So yeah because it's a different let me put it this way in the completely different feeling when you're on a show and you know, you're not doing it, you know where you're going at the show is just not working. We just can't I don't know what it is. Like that's a different feeling for us. It's about the opposite of felt like nobody's seeing what we're doing. That's what it felt like this. So yeah, I mean it does it. It does seem like it it did not giving you enough time to sort of or do feel as if they didn't give you enough time, especially since the elections were coming up because it would have been nice to see what you guys would do and then plus it's just like that's the time it no matter what show it is. Whether it's the Daily Show. I imagine all the shows they get a boost when the elections happen. I personally felt that way I express that. I was very disappointed that they didn't try to promote our As together hmm. We were two black men in late night doing smart comedy shows that hasn't happened before and I was really upset that. We never did any neutral promotion and really tied to shows together. You know, the way John and Stephen when Steven Stone Cold Barren, you know, exactly did a lot of cross promotion you saw the relationship between two people which was so much fun. And I thought we could have gotten so much mileage out of Trevor and I having a type of relationship on the air I man. African-American he's an African African, you know about that whatever but at least people would know there's a distinction between us as personalities and then they see the distinction between the shows, you know, right. Do you have any feeling that may be part of the issue was and you've spoken a bit about this before is you've joked about it the fact that you know, your show is very you Center race and and especially Blackness within your comedy. And it moves and it makes people uncomfortable. And do you think maybe the idea of having two black eyes, even though you guys are have a totally different way of doing career in comedy. Do you think that the idea of putting you two together maybe scared off the network and they were afraid that people wouldn't buy that I don't know if they were afraid if that's the case. I think the unconsciously the audience could have felt they might have been getting the same thing and could say well what do I need to stick around for this that's possible. You never know. Right, like when I heard that it sort of brought to light to me one of the things that I think in when I think about like the larger conversation about representation, I think that like ideas about audience participation and sort of like how audiences interact with the product or interact with a film or television show. Like I feel like that is sort of left out of the conversation all the time. Yeah. I know so many people who told me, you know, I'm really sad that the show Gone, but I never really watched it and I and and there there was some sort of Disconnect and I think part of it is just that you know, people aren't really watching lately. Like, you know used to be just like I'm at home. This is what's on this is what I'm going to unwind to before I go to sleep. Right and now it's sort of like you can do anything like you can lay in your bed with one eye open and just look at Snapchat exactly. There are so many more ways to consume media now and like as a result of that there's also so many more or spaces that you can use to critique it, you know, like I feel like in podcasting there's like an abundance of criticism like sometimes it can feel like everybody is a Critic. How do you think that affects the space? Hmm? Really like any other space when everyone is making their critiques there are going to be some people who don't think as hard about those critiques before they make them which can create a toxic spaces on extend. But I think then there are also people who do really think deeply about like one of my favorite podcast that I've been listening to for. There are actually the first podcast I started listening to and I discovered podcast for thing. It's called fell. Swatting they've been around for I think about a decade. Yeah and granted it's to I gotta is Adam kempen are and Jos Larson, but they're also very smart. They just a really thoughtful and they will often acknowledged their shortcomings and whether it's their own film not like they have a very to me. I think they have a very robust film knowledge, but you know, they don't know everything no one knows everything and so when they're talking about a movie that might be a little bit out of their normal, you know purview they will Admit that so just to get a sense of what film spotting sounds like let's hear Josh and Adam talk about whether or not the movie Mad Max. Fury Road is quote unquote feminist. So just some context Mad Max Fury Road is pretty female Centric and there are a lot of like women playing main characters. So the first voice you're going to hear in this clip is Josh's even with this emphasis on female characters though some aren't so sure about Fury roads feminist credentials on Twitter Anita sarkeesian host of the web series feminist frequency bluntly declared. I saw Fury Road I get why people like it but it isn't feminist one of the reasons she gave in a series of tweets was this feminism doesn't simply mean women getting to partake in typical badass guy stuff feminism is about redefining our social value system. So Adam, where do you fall on the question of whether or not Mad Max Fury Road is feminist or do you think that this debate? It's Self has hijacked the movie that is at its core just a brilliant take-no-prisoners action flick. Well, I guess the question I put back on you Josh's can I say that it's not a feminist movie but still like the movie. I think that maybe the more challenging question to answer and when she says it isn't feminist. It makes me think that there's almost this checklist for art and the movie either checks those boxes. However many there are or it doesn't check the boxes and if it doesn't check out Them can we still appreciate what it's doing versus what it isn't doing. And so let's put a movie like Fury Road in the context of the other Mad Max films in both of them. I think we can pretty much say blanket statement all the women are peripheral characters at best. Some of them are sort of sexual Sidekicks to these scavengers these gangs out there or in the first Mad Max. She's basically a helpless spouse. Yeah and a helpless mom you put that in contrast to this movie. You have the whole plot based around. These women no longer wanting to be objects and searching for a way out of this system of Oppression. That's a far cry from anything. We saw in the first two Mad Max movies and more than what we see in most Hollywood action movies. So is that then not enough? I think it depends on who's asking the question, right? And you and I are both coming at it as movie people first or let's say as text oriented film lovers not someone from feminist film Theory or any Of political film Theory or any sort of ideology sure. And if you are looking at the film through that lens first, you may be holding it up to standards and saying because I'm aware of this. I like to call attention to these what are important concerns is why I like reading people who have this perspective on Films. That's what you're going to draw upon. I'm just a boy watching a movie hoping it does right by its girl. They are probably one of the smartest critics that aren't doing the sort of things. Thing that means a lot coming from you, you know, because you love film and you're also a really serious critic yourself. Okay that you talk I can hear it in episodes of represent like you're so knowledgeable about the projects that you review and you really get into the nitty-gritty of technique and story structure like you're obviously a critic but I saw on Twitter like recently you named your If I haven't films yes, and you had like the most sentimental sort of list. Oh, yeah, we're like you I mean it was like little mermaids Singing in the Rain Good Fellows. Like you had so many quintessential choices on your list. Like I I didn't get the sense that you were trying to put on airs and put be like, I'm a Critic so like these are my seven favorite films. Yeah. I try not to you know, it's I definitely went through that phase of my life for I'm juice areas for this let's let's analyze and only talk about otters and yeah that all that crap so I probably around 10 or 11. When I first watched Singing in the Rain is when I discovered Turner Classic Movies and I prided myself on watching Turner Classic Movies and watching foreign films. But now I realize some of the movies I love the most are like Mean Girls. I think Mean Girls like could stand up as one of the best comedies of the last 15 years I told Lee hundred percent agree to me. Yeah favorite movie is something where if it's on on Saturday. You're not moving. Do you really mean like it's if you get 45 minutes in and you like happen to see them as playing on TBS with commercials, you're like, wow, I have to sit finish this entire thing, right? Okay, so we're going to take a quick break. But when we return we're going to hear from one of my favorite movie makers and we're also going to talk about the power of the oh my God moment. This episode is brought to you by TaxACT. This tax season Tax Act has your back with their deduction maximizer and a hundred K accuracy guarantee. You can feel confident. You're getting the most out of tax season learn more about how to maximize your deductions and your refund and get 25% off federal and state filing attacks act.com gimlet. That's TaxACT.com gimlet for 25. percent off federal and state filing Alright, so we are back from our little break. I am in the studio with Aisha Harris from represent podcast. It's late. Hello. Hello - hello again. So I want to pick up where we left off in our conversation about representation and play you some clips that kind of capture what some TV and film creators have to say cool. So the first clip is from someone who like I mean, she's everything to me and also she's Just like exactly the type of role model that I sorely needed when I was in film school and that's director Ava Duvernay. Like there aren't even words that describe my love for her. I just I just think she's so fantastic. She's amazing. So I'm actually going to play you a clip the features even so for those of you guys who don't know Ava Duvernay is director and screenwriter and she directed Selma. So Selma is a historical drama about Martin Luther King jr. And and the Voting Rights marches that went from Selma Alabama to Montgomery, Alabama in 1965. And in this particular clip, she's on this show called the treatment which is from one of NPR's La stations KCRW, and it's hosted by the critic Elvis Mitchell. So on this show, he has really Frank conversations with major figures in the entertainment industry like Ava Duvernay. So we're going to pick right up when Ava and Elvis are talking about The Gaze of the director or the directors perspective and how that can affect a film so the first voice you're going to hear is Elvis Mitchell's one of the things that you use a lot and it's always shocks me how rarely people bring this up is we use silence in film and I also feel like that's the kind of radical thing to me because again so many films about black characters. They're always explaining themselves as if somehow nobody can figure them out. They're not talking about who they are and what they're doing it all. All times right? That's right. I mean it's exhausting and it's it's reductive and it's just it's just why why are we doing it? It says my my point of view. I I feel like Morris said in the silences and I like to play with that as much as possible and just you know, even in Saenz my editor Spencer and I have ever can I just try to how long can we push this where no one's saying anything and you have actors like David oyelowo Von Karman all these wonderful people the geography of the face. Sometimes says so much more than a bunch of Dialogue that's you know Court, you know dictating exactly where one goes the other thing about silences allows you to fill in the blanks a little bit. I mean, I don't have to dictate your feelings at every moment. You know, I even like silence to the point where it's not just absent of dialogue but also music just sit there with it for a second and that's not anything new but it is not as common in and films with black folk see because one of the things we talking about that that gays and so often in that case because they won't understand. People will cover themselves having these people explain to both themselves and to the audience Liz. I think it's I think I mean yes, that is the thought and I just I know for fact people people who love film surely, you know, we used to sing all kinds of films usually sing Everything. It's it's just this the simplification that goes with the black semi-automatic image that there has to be this this ongoing explanation and its ongoing, you know, proof of our presence and why were there and it's it's too much. I think we're past that point. I wish we were Doesn't happen too often enough for me to say we're past that point what past the point I think intellectually in terms of I think we'll make a little film lovers film Watchers. I don't know if all filmmakers and the people that control film and that are giving notes on films have caught up with the way that people really feel as they're consuming the film it's complicated, but I'm glad that you bring it up because you know Silence with black and brown faces on a film is radical and the fact that that is at this point is really a shame, huh I love her so much. She just She gets it and you have the idea of Silence on film with black bodies. I think it's just so powerful a scene of hers that comes to mind for me is the one from Selma when Coretta who's Martin's wife Coretta and Martin are sitting in their living room listening to a recording from This Racist, ban, who is harassing Martin with a sex tape of an alleged affair. The American public will soon know you for what you are and evil Beast. That wasn't me. I didn't make or I know. I know what you sound like. There's so many instances. I can think of and lots of films featuring black people where that scene would have been played all the way up. But instead you have like these these long pauses in between dialogue and you know as the viewer you start noticing other details like, you know credits hands are neatly folded in her lap and you see that her eyes are watering and I really Did that carretas response kind of matched what you would expect from like a genteel Southern preacher's wife? Yeah. So another Point Ava brought up in that clip is the difference between film lovers and film makers like what can the audience like actually do till seek out and support more diverse voices and stories and filmmaking. Yeah. I I mean, I think that now that we have more streaming services and more options for watching films. I think definitely that's been a win for film lovers, but I do think that yes film offers to some extent will see everything but what do they value and the kind of stories that they value often don't involve people of color or women as the protagonist. I mean to be honest you Need those film lovers who are people of color and women who also wants to be filmmakers. You need to give them the opportunity to make those films and act out their love of film. I don't think it's solely on the the audience to be I think it's mostly on the industry, but it's also a business and so people need to go also go see those movies, but then it's a chicken and egg thing. It's like well will people see these movies who live in a place where it's not New York or La where it's like a limited showing or if you're not advertising it very heavily or even advertising it correctly like actually reaching out to the right people and meeting them in the right places, right? Exactly. Exactly. There's I guess there's just so many factors. I don't think there's just one there's a lot of different moving Parts there like there are a ton of moving Parts like when Think of the people who you know help make a movie or a TV show a success like like you have the audience you've got filmmakers like Ava Duvernay, but there's another voice that often isn't mentioned and that's people who are like in the movies in this case in the clip. I'm about to play for you next. It's an extra step actually one of my favorite actresses. So this is a clip that comes from vulture TV podcast from an employee and in this particular clip the team at vulture is talking to the star of ABC's Smash Hit how to get away with murder Queen Viola Davis. She is queen bee is squeezed. So on how to get away with murder Viola plays Annalise Keating who is a defense attorney and Professor who like is caught up in these love polygons and she's leaving like six or seven double lives like all of the time and In this clip Viola talks about how she uses her role as a lead actor on her series to influence the creative choices of Peter Nowak who is the showrunner of How To Get Away With Murder. So the other voice you're going to hear in this clip. In addition to violas is Matthew zoller Seitz of the vulture TV podcast. One of the things I always tell people is there are times and people write television based on what you've seen before in other TV shows for Since she's a lead character she sexual it's got to be someone like I don't know. I'm just going to throw a knee Vanessa Williams. She's got to be someone who has the body. She's got to be someone who's desirable. She's got a look like this. She's got a sound like this and my experience with that is says who That's not the people in my life. I know women who are black widows who probably size 26 and they've had lots of men and they have a lots of Secrets, you know, and I just feel like I'm always at least in my way forcing him to take more chances with story lines like that. Why can't you do that? What are you going to sacrifice? You're going to say? If is an OMG moment, what if it's an OMG moment? That's a smaller OMG moment. Maybe it's just something that moves people just a little bit gives people just a little bit of a glimpse of her pathology talking about. Those are my God moments. That's something that that network television is really gotten very very good at those kinds of shows where more happens in an episode than might have happened in a whole season you ever worried that the audience will get worn out of that. You going to run out of ideas or that it's going Absolutely. I mean it seems like absolutely I do it's not within my control. I'm an actor. I tried to do my part to the best of my ability and I tried to influence to the best of my ability and the rest is left up to the powers that be but I do feel it's like someone said about the show. I remember I saw the show when I was younger and I loved it on Broadway was a musical loved it and the reviews came out and they kind of tore it All right, there was some things that they really loved about it, but they tore it apart and I thought oh my God, were they looking at the same show and I remember someone saying Viola all those things are true that they said in that review the bad things are true, but it's still great. And that's kind of how I feel about how to get away with murder. I mean, I know that people say is a lot going on or whatever, but I think what it does right cannot be ignored. It can't be listen me being cast as Analyse alone. Stop exclamation point is OMG, you know and people just kind of nod their heads and do that. I'm like, okay, you name an example of you seeing anything like that on network television the fact that they cast a woman whose dark skin and 50. It was my size my everything taken off a wig and an episode doing all of those things what it does right is worth a whole lot Yeah that she'll like that wig moment is probably the most iconic moment from that show. I just remember it so vividly and being like oh, this is happening on a network TV show right now. Yeah on ABC. Yeah, I mean just describe it. There's a moment a pivotal moment in the first season of How To Get Away With Murder, which I devoured like potato chips where you see, Annalise Viola Davis in her. Our bedroom and in this is one who's always perfectly put together. Like I think this woman has a different designer like wool coat on every single day of the week for every single one of her Court appearances and she takes off her wig and her false eyelashes and her makeup and sits in her bedroom and like has this moment with herself. I had never seen anything like that in my entire life. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I definitely definitely seen it but not with a black woman and not right that context. Yeah, and just when you think about all of the back story and history of what a black woman's hair means to them what the makeup means and just the dramatic way in which she takes it off and I think it's like immediately not undercut but it's just the the funny part that comes after is her husband comes in the room. Bonnie just told me you got the girl out on bail. Just tell me to take out a second mortgage to pay for it. I came close but we figured out another way Sam. Yeah. Why is your penis on a dead girl's phone? That's how it goes? Yeah, like this is that long undressing and just like stripping down of all of her her emotions and her feelings and then she flips out that like killer lie and it's just so perfect. What's also kind of like what she's talking about in the clip. It's like you have the OMG moment for people who like needed to see that in that space at that time. We're just seeing her take her wig off like her straight haired wig. And seeing her like short what we call Twa teeny-weeny afro, like I just heard like a couple inches of her natural hair that to me was so revolutionary so that to me made me go. Oh my God, but then it's followed by like the traditionally so be yeah this traditional so P OMG moment where she's like, you know where she's asking about, you know, dick pics like it's been a dead girl's phone. Yeah. It's just those little moments of like Cultural specificity, I think that you can pinpoint and shows like how to get away with murder and even Empire which takes it to a whole nother level but there's always just like just moments of saying things that a white audience wouldn't necessarily know. Yeah and just letting it happen and then if you don't get it, you don't get it. You're you ask someone exactly like, oh, it's great. It's I if there's one thing that I appreciate about where we are with black television, specifically, I mean, we still got out of a very long way to go but it's that now we're getting more of those moments like that. Hmm, we've made some strides. We've definitely made some strike. Well, are you sure? Thank you so much. You've been a fantastic guest. Thank you. I'm so glad that you came here and you talk to us today and very fun. Thank you. I'm so over this week. That's kind of the thing that we go for here to recap the clips featured on the show today the interview with Larry Wilmore was from slates represent with Aisha Harris Our Guest the conversation about Mad Max and feminism was from the film spot. In podcast commentary on silence and film was from KCRW use the treatment and the OMG moment when Viola Davis was from the vulture TV podcast. This episode was produced by Kate Parkinson Morgan Sarah abdurrahman and myself. It was edited by Amy Rose dresser Samplers theme music was made by Michael villian in our ad music was made by Mark Phillips. The show was mixed by Austin Thompson and Ian Scott sampler is a production of gimlet media.
Fall's arrival has Brittany thinking about the new slate of TV shows, the start of the film/TV awards season and the state of representation in the media. Aisha Harris, host of Slate's Represent, joins Brittany to discuss some of the best podcast moments about diversity in Hollywood. Episode #28 features clips from the following episodes (please click below for hyperlink to episodes):  Filmspotting, "#539 Mad Max/Fury Road and Top 5 Car Scenes" Slate's Represent, "The 'Racism Is Solved' Edition" KCRW's The Treatment with Elvis Mitchell, "Ava DuVernay: Selma" Vulture TV podcast, "Viola Davis on Craft Culture and Career" The Facts:  This episode was produced by Kate Parkinson-Morgan, Sarah Abdurrahman and Brittany Luse. It was edited by Annie-Rose Strasser. Sampler’s theme music was made by Micah Vellian and our ad music was made by Mark Phillips. The show was mixed by Austin Thompson and Ian Scott. Our Sponsors Prudential - Download the MapMyRun app and join the Prudential 4.01K challenge. When you do, pledge to save at least 1% or more of your annual income for retirement and run and log 4.01K to be eligible to win a prize. Audible – The biggest selection of audiobooks from leading publishers. Start your free 30-day trial plus receive a free audio book. 