What's up? I'm gonna sweat here with Mark Pollard. I have Matt's answer. He's the see SO2 Chief strategy officer of gray over in London and also the chair of the APG the account Planning Group, which is a guess right Matt the main planning institution organization in the world pushing all good things to planners about planning and so the world welcome mat. Hello. Let me to be here. Yeah, it's great to have you I will there's so much stuff that we can cover. I was involved with the APG back in Australia great organization. And you know, I think the thing that we're going to talk about largely today is going to be culture of planning and you know, when I do these interviews are often have types of people in mind and I know that things like personas are loved by some people and hated by others, but I do often do have certain faces and people in mind and the person that in mind that I have for this conversation is largely. On the shoe is kind of new to the idea of planning and mighty might even be in an agency where planning doesn't exist and maybe they've lost a few pictures and they start to give feedback that the strategy / planning and I use those words interchangeably, especially in America and they might have had feedback and that strategy or planning wasn't that strong and deep down. They know they went in with 50 slides of six possible labeled insights and then had 50 slides of tactics not necessarily an idea or platform in the middle and I'll speak to them and I'll be like, yeah, we trying to work out how to do planning and one of the first things I will try to understand from them as what like what is their culture what is their workflow? Because it's very hard just to drop a planner or planning into an organization because organizations are very slow to change. So today we're going to hear from a CSO about how it works in a place where it does work and then we'll try to consider. How to get it to work in a place where it has never been Matt, you're from what I understand quite interested in the idea of culture over process with plant right big believer in I mean, I've always been very lucky in the agencies. I've worked out to to work in I guess in an established planning culture strategy culture within an agency that respects and values strategy and planning greatly. So I've always been lucky enough. after to be a part of that and and a grave been lucky enough to to lead a leader department and agency and help Foster that so it was a gray when the the brilliantly see Jameson sort of talked about Peter drucker's the power of culture over process and how culture eats strategy for breakfast, you know, and you can mimic process minute mimic product of many things, but your culture is it's a real powerful asset to a company and I've always Big believer of the community and as a cultural entity of clouds and and as part of a broader agency culture working together to to get to great great work. So yeah, very passionate about that in the APG as a community as a is a natural extension of that for me. Oh, I want to get into the two words. You know, I'm going to do this. What what is culture culture I guess is as is a Is a is a manifestation of that at least three behaviors right says it's a set of behaviors which which which Define a belief system and a way of living and shared ideology. I think it's about identity. It's about it's about shared beliefs and Ambitions and a shared set of values, which you not you as a group together and and Alex created by Bye-bye. The manifestation of behaviors of people have status and Leadership within that community and and and it's something you have to work out and and and nurture and and respect and when you do so you can achieve quite quite incredible brilliant things. Yeah, I mean culture gets used in various ways, but I think in the way that we're talking about it, it's a set of beliefs that lead to a set of behaviors so step one if You're in the world of trying to work out how to improve planning in your agency or get it in in the first place I think is to get a piece of paper and write beliefs on one part of that piece of paper babies on the other and in a non-judgmental but slightly compassionate way just write down what you think the beliefs of the people that you're working with are there will be stated beliefs in most companies and value statements. Most of them are pretty saccharine, but write them down right because you can't just change an entire stack of beliefs by hiring a head of planning planning. For example, okay. What about the word process? I was lucky enough when I started when I started as a planet to be so fed, and incredible stack of books and thinking by various people and one of them that I still haven't been bred in a while, but I'm going to go back to his I don't know if you've read it. Tom Peters reimagine, which is was one of the most incredible sort of sort of Rants and Raves about modern business culture. And in there remember a phrase that jumped out. He said you need enough enough processor. You don't need process, you know. And I'm not I'm not saying process per say is it is a is a bad thing but the culture and sense of identity and shared ambition should should always leave for me and then you need enough flexibility in the steps and processing and guidelines upon which you go. There you go through things Frameworks was springboards rather than handcuffs ways of operating workflow and different clients will have different processes. That's what I think is interesting is when These become too structured in their own process then the dictates how you how you operate with clients who may have very different varying needs and their own ways think I'm not I'm not I'm not backing out saying it's unnecessary. It's just with slightly dubious about having the exact way of how you should answer a problem before you even truly sat down and engaged in gone through the initial process. Yeah, and I don't know because probably academic language there's probably an adjective or That goes in front of the word process in some places because you have conventional traditional processes like the five days. So I'm not talking at you madam talking to people who are listening but let you know so okay describe. So there's you know, I guess you could call it like a light process like the five days Discovery definition definition of problem in the design development deployment. That was one that I grew up around. Yeah. Yeah with planning, you know talk to. Well write a discussion guide work out what you're trying to do talk to people to find the problem. What's the inside? What's the strategy? Right? So these are kind of like processed lights and I've know I talked about America. I love the USA guys, but you know, I had some weird experiences here. So I talk about it because I had huge business culture shock. Then there's the other side of that which is someone trying to write almost like a 60 step guide to getting to an idea. Where does Grace sit on that the complete Into the Spectrum, you know complete other end of the Spectrum, which is much more about a shared ambition at the start of a pretty understanding the problem that you face in it and a shared ambition of where the outcome that you want to achieve or able to trajectory and how come and then working through a much lighter touch process of then how you go about achieving that, you know, we use Simple Frameworks as you'd expect from a brief constructive issue in sight idea. At the impact you want to have or or the classic for box Matrix of understanding the consumer inside the cultural tension the category opportunity and under the company's right to play many of which I'm sure many agencies are be agencies all will play around which is why it's the way in which you you leap from that and how you work together which can create something distinctive in the face of other agencies who will have the same process, you know. This is going to be very similar in lots of different agencies, but the culture of how you attack that and the energy you take into that is what will set you apart. And that's what clients feel when they're in the room and were the irony of all of this. Not sure if it was in a book called it was a book on talent talent is overrated under bow overrated or grid and the researchers were saying that the longer that someone's doing something the top the top people in that field have very very simple rules. Of thumb that could be three or four or five beliefs and principles that they apply but because of their experience and because of their technical ability, they apply these things in very specific and Powerful ways. So that someone who's been designing for 20 to 25 years who's incredible if one of their principles is take away everything. I don't need like that's kind of part of their process, you know, because by then the process will be inserted have a bunch of ideas make a bunch of stuff. Take away everything. I don't need ya. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I totally agree if I was any talking talking the other day to one of our very brilliant Global planning Partners here at gray it who was talking just at that and saying as the most senior he gets him with the more senior clients. He is working with the simpler his approaches and Frameworks have become in order to be able to clearly land and operationalize his thinking so it's not only just out of repetition and habit and themes but also out of the need that when you get To that level you need to be able to land it. So simply and that takes a lot of simplification versus Simplicity as you well know as two different things. It takes a lot of effort to make it that that's simple and that's something you just have to work on. I think the interesting thing you touch upon is though many people listening. I'm sure that the notion of it for 25 years doing the same thing and apply the same logic day in day out on different is an interesting one, you know, we're working with talent and and I myself have come through many different. Observe agencies tackling different types of problems in different ways so that you know, the thought of pure repetition of the same approach is not something that's it's totally comfortably with me and indeed many of the other younger strategies. I'm sure coming out. So it's going to be interesting how people having Frameworks they can draw upon and pull up onto shortcutting to tackle problems, which you yourself provide brilliantly. I really really useful ways to allow you to Sacrament. Yeah, and so that's not to say that those rules of thumb something that One's repeating robotically for 20 to 25 years, but there are able to apply them in a more specific way knowing that there's going to be chaos in all creative work as their needs to be so but I also think that planners for anyone who's doing creative work or thinking work they need to and I seed if I see people debate this idea. I think they need to be able to express themselves on a project and then some people will say Oh, no, you're there to do the clients work and it's you know. That's being disobedient and all that sort of stuff. Do you have a strong opinion about the idea of self-expressing on a project a hundred percent good. I expect it from from everyone. I expect brilliant creatives to be brilliant strategy strategy has to be to be able to lean heavily into into into ideas and client service and business directors to be able to lean into strategy, you know for me the it's the Melting Pot of everyone together and all the other disciplines on top of that that triumvirate in design and Technology data and so forth. Fourth it's all about self-expression to me. That's the magic. That's the that's the that's the Gold Dust which which you want people to bring a new job. I look for I look for strategist. When you hire to understand what expression and personality that planner is going to bring the project and the business a hundred percent Huntington because so that's explicitly get back into the idea of culture. How would you describe the culture of planning at gray open is how we always I've always talked about it an open culture of collaboration empowerment diversity of thought it's about giving people the freedom and autonomy to express themselves and to pursue their trains of thought. It's about a more of a coaching mentality rather than pure sort of hierarchical in terms of management and sign up and it's one of the breeds hopefully an absorption of different. Stimulus and thinking and generalism install allows work to flourish repeated more diverse, but equally creates a more stimulating and enjoyable environment for people to be a part of a community for people to be a part of and I should say that that is not something that's just distinct of the planning Community, you know, we're not just a subset of stand-alone everything is within the context of the broader agency. That's that to your point about people on their own trying to forge a strategic crew. And Community you have to be a part of respected and part of the broader the team course, can you talk a little bit more? So if we're talking about culture as being a set of behaviors born from a set of belief, is there anything that we haven't talked about that would help us understand the beliefs at the heart of that culture. I guess it's really hard right. There's a really is a really simple behavior that I think has been transformative to our planning culture and it's probably going to accordingly laughs it's not anything grandiose, but it's something that's really simple and we do it every week. And it's a Thursday morning breakfast. It's a Thursday morning breakfast where every week we all get together and we talk and we share briefs. We share thinking and interesting people stand up and the TEAM stands up and I say it because you can write to your point down the big believe statements But ultimately it's those daily behaviors and rituals which change and create community and identity and change in an organization and having a forum where week in week out the community of 20 or 30 or how many planets sitting down and I think relationships and supporting each other and talking can be serendipitously exchanging thoughts on briefs and problems can be one of the most powerful galvanizes and and Catalyst in a team culture and it's those sort of like, you know, Malcolm Global being talked about breaking Windows the things that give permission for all the other things to happen that I think are the important things to to look for and do I'm a big lover of first hip-hop and creativity and Questlove was interviewed upon his book create. 70 and he had a lovely expression as well which is like, you know find your flock fuss when he was asked about how he was recommended and I think we need to create those environments for that recruiter to come together with a breakfast meetings. Are there certain things that you're conscious of doing in those meetings? For instance. I used to start planning meetings or strategy meetings by asking people. What's one risk you've taken in the past week and how did it go there were 12 to 15 of us. So wasn't there weren't too many people but it sends a signal that the aim was to take risks and to learn from And to share I guess it's more we always encourage people to stand up with their new to the team and present share something from from themselves and something they're passionate about passionate about something that our that allows them to realize this is a place of growth and vulnerability is okay and good with their support each other. We've got briefs on the table to discuss even share their problems. There aren't I like that notion of those sort of specific questions around things like that, but no more just a just a general Team pushing and supporting each other and spilling out into instant daily into daily life in the agency. Yeah, so some of the traits that you mentioned before about planning and then within gray as well, you're seeing in London our openness collaboration diversity Freedom autonomy coaching an appreciation for generalism and community and I got to tell you that I think a lot of people who've spent a few years in inside a good productive planning department will relate to that the problem is when They then try an agency that's not like that and is not used to having planning. You know, I've worked in places. I like coaching. It's probably obvious for the stuff that I do, right and I've worked in places as a suspicious of that because they felt that there was an expectation that you have to be a boss and boss people around and tell them what to do and I learned that because sometimes other senior people went in the room and I'd ask people their opinions and they would say just tell me what to do Mike. How are you in this industry and correcting with me like that right now? I I've never heard that before so you must know people who've been very optimistic about establishing new planning departments in agencies that haven't had them or who have been just a new planner in an agency that's not used to planning. What are some of the cultural barriers that you've heard about when people try to bring in planning and specifically planning described in the way that you've described it at Gray. Well, yes, it's a big question. I guess you've got to do and you're going to interrogate the broader organizational culture before you sort of join or get a sense of it. Don't you to understand what the what the dominant behaviors of that organization are whether people with the status in the influence in their organization who how do they how they feel and you know, sometimes you find that it's agencies which have a very clear sort of mimic and hierarchical approach to the lens of how certain people think the world is and the work is made and you're there to replicate and be a part of that which can be good if you're learning as a planning function, but not if it's necessary for man Express and to change I think if you're starting as a junior or store Mid Stratton, you're trying to create a strategy function. I worry that that's a really hard task for strategist with that without a Without a senior leader of the discipline who has the sponsorship of executive members. That's a really hard uphill task to operate with him. And I guess it's understanding what you're what you're in for to enter into those process places. And if you're at and if you're in there how much how much are you prepared to take on to try and change it versus looking for a more conducive culture that is embracing and ready for you two to step into. So yeah, it's a heart it is it is a hard one. Like I said, I've been blessed with planning cultures that are established and to think that there's a lot of I guess jr. Strategies out there trying to form form their very essence of a strategy Department within it within a broader agency as a really tight. There's a tough one because it's a lot of responsibility to take on where time when you should be really learning learning as much as I think the I look I get messages from people who convinced their bosses that they want. The strategist and then print that you know to into a career and not sure exactly what to do with it. And nor it nor is the boss is never had strategy and then on the other side, I know senior people I'm in a way I've got through this who is very hard to diagnose. What a company is like while you're interviewing. I admit in New York. I got to the point where every agency's got a story and there's pressure on agencies because margins are getting tighter. So they are at they're all looking at ways of increasing their access to bigger budgets or not lose their budgets and planning is a tool that many of them use purely for business development. Not necessarily through thinking I got to the point where under few interviews. I was like, you know, can I just come in and look over people shoulder shoulders with the work they're doing because everybody's got a story and that was because it's hard to diagnose. I mean I get so many messages from people who are totally gassed lip where they get brought in as a head of strategy or in a very senior strategy role and the person who hired them. Who's the president or CEO and the Same that I want to let them in they're not going to change anything. It destroys people for years. Do you hear many stories like that in the UK? And I'm not I'm not being dramatic. I want to be really clear that I can point out. If I was on LinkedIn, I can point them tens and tens and tens of people and they do have gather a little bit more in certain types of agencies. I think that the dominant story we hear over in London and is maybe different is more of a huge expectation responsibility pressure placed upon jr. The gist to deliver an increasingly tough circumstances rather than I'm not going to let you do your thing. I don't buy what you're going to what you can deliver and and I'm just going to sort of just take the money from your client for your hours. So the dominant narrative is much more about how do we help both planners that have that incredible energy to propel themselves and they're thinking for its harness that energy and manager energy and look after themselves. But equally how do we Champion a culture and a way of working as in The strategy Community which is she's more conducive more supportive more sustainable and encourages perspective and boundaries rather than that takes advantage of that energy and willingness of young minds so that that's the stood that's more of the story that we see over here in London, but I guess I can I can imagine in the states and people strive to set themselves on a path. They want to go upon that it's more about frustration that they're not able to express themselves. Although it's not the willingness to change and I think that's you have to take it as far as you can take it find the people you think are most likely to make the change which is hot as you can but if there's a point where you go, do, you know what my energy is just being absolutely depleted and it's there's no momentum. Then you have to make you have to make the switch. I would say when you talk about tough circumstances. What what are you hearing? Where do you start that? There's impossible expectations on people being put in positions where they they are being asked to do more senior more. Greater quantity of work under greater duress without the support and remuneration and and respect of the broader of a broader culture and management and Leadership that it's taking its toll physically obviously mentally from a confidence point of view that people are simply not having the time to do the work in the way. They like a lack of boundaries that people are putting them on to a younger planners and that therefore planners are also like a boundary spanners of placing on themselves is It's quite crazy, even in a well-intentioned culture and organization. That is it is still a really hard task to balance the needs of clients that commercial music organization the talent development resilience and energy. It's even with the best intentions. It's really hard to manage an end in organizations where they're much more commercially focused and understandably under pressure at this x then there's a human capital unfortunately and that's being that is playing out. We see it quite prevalent liat. That mutant senior strategy strategic level. Do you have any suggestions for how someone can first of all diagnose whether the impossible expectations? They're feeling are legitimate or just part of growing pains and then what to do about them, but I think the first thing I mean brilliant cat Wiles is a head of strategy cccp yesterday at a PGA event talks so eloquently and brilliantly on this subject and one of the things she says, you know set reasonable. Little expectations of yourself. I'm not saying don't push yourself and have a growth mindset and look to look to succeed. But we reason about the expectations you're placing on yourself and not beating yourself up horrendously for not being able to deliver two bosses expectation or what you're seeing another world around you. So I think understanding what's a realistic expectation of yourself and understanding what you need. I always say to my to my team manager manager push on to your seat. Your management support you to provide you with the prioritization to provide you with the resources to provide you with the with the guidance to be able to fulfill and on the opportunities that you have. Those are the sorts of practice steps that our planet can take in order to change and take control of the situation, but it's equally with the onus is on the management to create an environment and a culture where that is encouraged and expected. Yeah. I think they need to be way more senior voices in public or talking about this. Topics because when you're feeling these things that's very lonely and then when the industry is quiet you just like well, maybe that's just the way it is and that's not going to breed a healthy industry for what it's worth for those listening. I think Dennis was a whole typology of impossible expectations that we could get into because on the one hand you're going to have clients launching a campaign on Friday night at a big event. And we you know, you can have to work the whole weekend getting some reports together that's for you to decide if that's an impossible expectation, but one thing that I personally started to do is just Simplify questions. I was asking myself. So what's one risk I could take on this project. What's one thing I could do differently. What's one thing I learned from last project and using numbers like that to give me a sense of focus and and power and calm it through what will be chaos you have any techniques like that? No, I mean the same in Anna idly. I'll be happy to admit that I apply is catching yourself, you know, the the way in which we think and operate under duress is learned through years of a ritual Behavior response to situations, you know fight or flight so forth and in situations when you're finding yourself going down a path of stress distress, if you can just stop and observe that that is happening catch yourself in that moment and just take a second 20 seconds, whatever it might be to catch yourself and observe. What response is likely to come as a result, you know, if you're and observe that step back and not be able to catch yourself that can at least allow you the moment of Awareness to then go. Okay. Now, how do I how do I want to help do I want to actually change this? What do I want to get out of this? What would be a better way more useful and helpful way for me to respond. So catching catching yourself at those moments is key and I've certainly found useful for me and like you say taking control and realizing this your day. This is your life get out of it what you want beginning to set your own priorities as you've said, it's critical. So yeah. Sometimes have a few Mentor has I always always imagined people in London in planning rolling their eyes when I use a word like that, but let's park Parkinson's law I think is I think it's Parkinson's law that will take the time we have it's very try it but it's kind of calming and then I love I love just think about what what is reality, you know, we're making it all up. But what am I? Why don't I try to make my own reality on this project? Not just going to say one that I was having. I got it from working with nails Lennon closely. News here for two years, you know we used to say see it groups of people around a table and there before borrowed browse and screwing their hands and I'm trying to solve a problem you see in there one day and see them there the next day and we will see celebrity. No pressure. Yeah never see no pressure a light heart freezed amount of yeah, the increased amount of pressure that you press up on yourself because of your passion because of your desire for perfectionism creates a paralysis and a moment of levity a moment of puncturing that which Seems totally counterintuitive want to make people laugh when people, you know can actually then create a breakthrough and a perspective which which can breed a more enjoyable bed, but ultimately better better work. So when I always have is that level everything on pressure it'll be interesting see agencies put up laughter monitoring things in as part of their balanced scorecard. You mentioned the phrase manager now, I've heard that a bunch of times as well and I've heard it from people who would never in the agency. I've heard it from people who would also say only bring me the solution not the problem which when you're starting out is a bit of a rip rip the riddle. Yeah. What what is an appropriate use of managing up and I don't and what I mean is like it sounds a really structured term for me. It's about a member of the team being comfortable and confident enough comfortable enough more than anything with a relationship with their senior line manager to talk to them to ask them to clarify what they expect the teas that they expect to share their work earlier rather than later to embrace opinion and to begin to to get them on and I want to point of trajectory of the way. They're working with the right support and resources and time expectations. They need in order to do their job to the best of their ability and to benefit and and that's what I mean by managing up you're not there's a sense of through fear and desire to do the best job you hold on too tight to the You have or you leave it until that, you know, but deadlines two weeks you need until the moment of engaging with your boss to the table for those two weeks because you need to get perfect rather than a more open and and it puts more responsibility on the manager. It asks of them to support to help and it creates a much more supportive relationship. You know, I've always thought that as and I say to the people in my team who are managing younger people you learn more from the people, you know more about yourself from people Humanity fell from the people above you will learn more about how you behave and your own weaknesses in your own strength from people that are asking questions and ask you if you so it's a real two-way thing. I think but yeah managing up yourself. I'm getting flashbacks to when I first heard it and it was one of those words which when I look back at it now kind of shocked me a bit because I was in a place that was doing pretty good work. It was pretty loosey-goosey, you know in Australia people go to work. Thongs or flip-flops and everyone knows that right the difference there and then someone said this phrase and I was like God we're using business speak. I thought would be I know I feel like I kind of cringe when I say it but I don't know because and I think the phrase it changed I was like, oh God now good act or business see with this person in an agency. That doesn't really act like that. What's a what's a different phrase? I think we did change it. Yeah, you're right. You're right, you know and as I and and I think you're right. I don't know. It's I think about that. I drop your now and he made me a better one, but you're right. It doesn't quite sit right with me but it's the best way of I think people I guess what I'm getting at is it's about taking taking control of her situation rather than the the management coming down. It's about you feeling empowered and in control to be able to manage the people to manage the people that love you to help you and that's what I that's what I've always liked about it because it's important. It's there is as much of this is about a nurturing environment for junior people. It's also about saying hey, there is a certain amount of responsibility that you need to grasp in order to change your own trajectory and future we're going to give you that responsibility and you have to take it and you will make with it what you will and we will help you and that's what I've always loved about running a part and it's being able to do that and expecting them to lean into it and take it. So behavioral economics says this idea of Of deliberate practice and deliberate practice is where you break down the key components of your craft and you try to practice the most difficult parts of them in a live situation and you get feedback. Right? So if you wanted to get good at if you want to get good at shooting three-pointers in basketball with you probably set a number I'm going to do 200. I'm going to shoot 200 times today. I'm going to have people running at me and random ways. Someone's going to pass me the ball. I'm gonna have a coach monitoring me giving me feedback as far as like, right. Creative briefs. Do you give feedback is do rate and review briefs every three to six months. You know, what are the feedback mechanisms that you've seen that a useful specifically around creative briefs planning is not a vacuum for a start. So, you know immediately understanding your relationship with other members of the of the team. I think it starts they're not in with my feedback on a brief but how the team collectively have a greed and ambition and approach and what they want. That's the Thing for me I tend to attend to sit an exploratory phase with people on Bruce's they're kicking out into different options. I like if you're going to I always find if you're approaching a senior member of either planning or the creative department or certain to show them your brief, you know, you get I was for the first point of contact you got to recognize this as a thinker who is going to be thinking expansively about the problem and therefore to give them One Singular option is going to be it's going to be tricky. So I always think you Art with a it's good to start with an expansive conversation around around the different ways ways into it. And then more recently we've got more specific on on the craft of The Craft of a brief and the sacrifice that you need to put into it to writing a brief that the how time you know, the narrative flow is and that's something more recently. We've again just going back to to ensuring that as you get new members of to the team in and as you just need to as you need to just revisit together and push on but it's much more about a supporting people as they're defined the problems supporting those expansively look at different options and then being there to help craft help them craft and push the briefs as they then quickly write them but it's fair to say as well. You know, we've got a number of very senior planning Partners who act as a sort of distributed leadership that mentor and drive and push the briefs and each of them have their own style and their own beliefs and their own way of operating so that it creates a rather Just going through one uniform approach that one head of strata. Once he gets over Leeds. It's about making sure we have the nuances in the flavors of different strategy teams. Okay, if that answers your question. Yeah, I think so. I mean what I'm hearing is that there's feedback in the form of in Project application of domain expertise experience and Technical craft skills and subjectivity. So I get that it's maybe not as formalized as I think some of the deliberate practice No, definitely another part of the open culture. We talked about this with strategies to create teams that are empowered and a given their opportunity for self-expression to take their thinking in the way that they feel is best appropriate to solve the problem with their client support them with with line management that can guide them and push them but not to create a singular singular funnel through me as a CSO that says this is the way I would do it because if you're looking for diversity of thought of you looking for in four different innovative, Ways of solving problems, you know, I mean you want to try and create an environment which which allows for those those those varying varying approaches while still holding I guess the standard. Yeah, and I think that's just the application of those beliefs. You mentioned earlier openness collaboration diversity Etc. There are Iran today for digital agencies exploring strategy recently and I started to write down I like this kind of operating system because often people think about planning and I think about the a brief and that risk there being too much of a sacred nurse around the brief and I do think you've got a zoom back out and actually think about like does this agency actually have a philosophy a creative philosophy a planning philosophy had of those things sit together and then there's a bunch of other things you need to think through before you even get to the small things such as the brief like what's the philosophy of Gray? We've always talked about cultural ambition in our work the work. We don't have a Powerhouse style of work with always been very, Proud of the fact that we don't necessarily have a house style. We have a house standard but we trying to adhere to but we've always you know, the guiding philosophy that has pushed us forward to the last few years is about asking ourselves the question of what's the what's the culture and Mission in this project was a culture ambition for this brand. Where can we take it? Where what's the outcome we want to achieve and then how can we best achieve that through through the thinking and through the work and it's LED. Let's work a different shapes and different different types of output with that outcome in mind rather than rather than necessarily the the singular form of its advertising of communication tool to solve to solve a problem. And then as part of that obviously there for strategic approach to understand people in The Wider context cultural tensions, and that kind of approach in terms of strategy and really the role of the planner in being the Arbiter at person facilitating and keeping people true to This is where this is a trajectory we are this is where we want to take the take the branch table work. It's been how we've how we've adopted it and equally we've got different different clients different ways of approaching it, but that's that's been the approach that has guided guided us and like I say, it's a spirit and it's a sort of a combination of a believing the type of work we want to make and with open how we want to work to create it. So if you've talked about cultural ambition and shared ambition future Times now. What sin? Can you give me an example pointing at a particular project? How do you write that? What kinds of words are you using to each other or on a piece of paper? I think it varies right? So it's like it's with lucozade sport one of our Brands. It's like how do we get a million people moving? How do we move you from a capacity of brand is about football and rugby in into an actually a modern Fitness culture and get get a million people around the country moving and active right with Volvo. They almost have their own ambition, which is innovate by 2020. No one in. No one in all because of a Volvo should to die in an accident and that created a real sense of a cultural Vision ambition all the work around it. We wanted to make and it can be more executional. You know, it can be more with the Vinnie Jones where we did a number of years ago. It was about how we created entertainment and educate people through entertainment with lots of Lights of Vinnie Jones order or shows that a theater show so it can be like, I guess more brand purpose level ambition in the world versus more for the For the for the execution and how you take out to culture and how you're going to get into popular culture with the executional construct. So is it works in different ways and thinking about it kind of helps us in terms of you know, classic cutting through the expectation be wrong though. They don't care. They're not thinking about our Brands and I'm thinking about the work that we create. So we have to do our best to puncture that and be a part of that. Yeah, and I think again to go back to the very start of this that anyone thinking about bringing in planning into a And see just from what we talked about their what Matt was talking about. There's a set of beliefs, right which is to be provocative. We believe in being provocative. We believe in work that makes a different difference to people in culture in public. We set high expectations, right? So you could probably list 30 to 40 beliefs. Just from what Matt's been talking about today. Let me let me go down to the last topic. I know we've touched on as well. We have jumped around a bit. That's always my fault. You've recently had a night at the APG. You can't plan it. Gloom in London talking about mental health. Can you talk to me about why now for that topic and what were some of the conversations that happened on the night as I you know, I talked endlessly. We're with you already about that the importance of community when I joined the APG I said to Sara Newman the brilliant director of the APG the most important letter in them is for me is the G is the group and how we support each other how outside of the pressures and competitiveness of agency culture and Companies and so forth we can support each other. So it's always been clear to me that there is a rising issue with specifically people's mental health and varying degrees of people losing confidence to the more clinical aspects of mental health. It's always been clear. That's that's that's an issue. And we wanted to do something about that. We carried our survey initially last year to get a sense of it and lots of strategic community and we're really quite taken aback about how prevalent problem that we sort of anecdotally thought it would be. A problem was and then we held an event. We're very careful that we are not positioning ourselves as any kind of an organization trying to present problems to clinical their solutions to clinical problems. We wanted to start with a conversation in a informal environment to are the topic with people who who are interested and we had a great response in a great turnout. We had three people talking Paul Phillips who is a cat man is where it's all at different parts of the world. Talk to brilliantly about how the brain structure that the prefrontal cortex the limbic system and the relationship between the two and how we as planners obviously are the prefrontal cortex has an aspect of our brain that really developed a conscious thought but it's the limbic system which fires off all those wonderful hormones and neurotransmitters which result in a more evolutionary side of other part of our brain about flights and fear that we all know. So well that kicks in and he explained brilliantly about the nature of understanding when you're live Epic system is firing. And when we all wake up at 4 a.m. There's a reason why we have nervous and anxious thoughts and that's because our prefrontal cortex is fast asleep and our limbic system is firing, you know, how you can recognize that and understand that and understand the brain traps are the the way that plays and that really gave us a sense that you know, thinking can get us into as a group of planners who are addicted to thinking to solve problems that addiction to thinking of we turn on our can turn on ourselves and cause ourselves problems, but yet we can use that same application of thought to the two out. Overall brain and think differently and recognize when you're behaving in certain ways. And so recognize what's absorbs heat up brilliantly about that. We had another speaker called Richard do spoke about his experience as a City lawyer who had everything going for him family work success and his experience one day. We're all fell apart and he had a breakdown. He's written a brilliant book about his experience and how that seemingly he never had. Put himself to that person over five or so years, it builds up and builds up until one day. He got out of his car south of Paris with his family in the car and walked across three lanes of traffic until someone stopped and asked him what he was doing and he spoke brilliantly about the recognition that we all must have about. This is not an issue that is abnormal in strong good people who suffer from breakdown and depression and how it can creep up creep up and at one moment seemingly insignificant think and as he says make your bucket overflow and To recognize that so he took brilliantly about techniques for how you can make your bucket of resilience bigger how you can take things out of it recognize what you're putting into it as an analogy for dealing with mental health and he's now part of an organization which is trying to create better cultures and then cat Wiles is the head of strategy at vcp spoke incredibly honestly truthfully intimately to the crew about her personal experience, which was quite extraordinary. Actually. She's And she said I was very touching and I won't go into it. I'm here. But but but she was a pains to point out. She read brilliantly from a book which says, you know, the people that suffer from bouts of depression and and mental illness are by their very nature people with strength the generosity take more upon their shoulders and others who seek to help others more than themselves who can be relied upon who are turned to and in so doing inevitably take too much on and ask themselves. Do too much and it's in that behavior that that brings the problems with it. So it is an issue of strength not weakness. She taught brilliantly and eloquently and it was really the response has been fantastic and for us it's the very start we now can see the level of response we've had we wanted to be a start of many more conversations and initiatives and how we as a committee in a group of strategist can take responsibility for workplace conduct culture hold ourselves to account as a as a crew the senior strategist to try and not only helped create the coping mechanisms for people in situations like that, but more importantly create cultures, which don't you know, don't allow that to be necessary. I think that's the only yeah, it's almost 25 years into my superpower which is feeling sadness and Melancholy very easily and there are various reasons about from growing up and all sorts of things and I so I follow this place quite a lot but the trite sentence or the trite real Relation that it's not just me is incredibly powerful because often in our small lives. We think it is just us and sometimes we live with people we go up with people who make it out to be to be unusual because we feel like that and they say things like well, I've never felt like that which means that you're broken and I think that whole idea of being broken in this is not useful as opposed to trying to find the strength in what you're feeling and knowing that you're not alone and also knowing that it can be very very complicated and down to a very specific individual. Also, it's good to hear that. The APG is doing that kind of stuff Johnny. Give us a really quick update on what the APG is up to so so yeah, there's absolutely knows and loads going on. There's sort of a few key pillars for the APG does firstly, you know, huge amount of training where massive resource for training and we are trying to make it as affordable and accessible for strategy at all levels to access training from brilliant thought leaders and And Senior strategist from London with mostly it's mostly delivered through through through the London UK. So apologies people in the States, but we try and film as much as the stuff we do. So if you want to be a member and access but we are looking to think about how we expand out. So huge amount of training programs and the theme for training this year that we really getting into it putting the people back into planning. So how we can help the Strategic Community fall in love once again with with people through empathy and understanding of culture of behavior of And so forth so there's going to be a series of events going on this year and as a huge wealth of training workshops and an area of expertise in other areas in around inspiration. So noisy thinking is a big it's a big thing. We do and themes that help people get tackled the barriers facing them getting to better and more creative work. But the big bit this year is out every two years. We have the creative strategy Awards. So the creative strategy Awards have been running for 25 years now every two years and is a celebration of recognition of the best creative. Thinking strategy of work on the planet. So what's the IP a brilliantly gives you the story of the effectiveness and the journey. This is there. This is the creative strategy of How It's been made Brilliance essays written and presentations given and Jim Carroll is chairing the chairing the final round judges, which will be phenomenal @ Viki Holgate is showing short list is and nobody there's a theme every year every two years old last couple years ago with transformation can be used for that was influence. But this year Sarah and I sat down and we thought there is no better theme than In the right now with everything going on in the value that needs to be placed on pure creativity of thought so we strip for the 25th year Stripped Away. The theme is just a PG create a strategy Awards in its Purity allowing people to bring whatever form and agenda they feel is most powerful to their papers. So that's open. Now. The deadline is already the fourth of April. So if you're interested, it's a chance to get your paper read by the leading strategist London around the world, and we would love people to get involved. Listen to anyone who's knew or not even knew to a career. I think just spending a lot of time with those case to case studies and papers and and not just reading them. But analyzing them less taking notes and looking creating your own typology. Like what are people saying how they're doing it? There's definitely a sub-genre of writing in some of these countries, which is kind of funny. Your ass isn't lyricism is vickicooper strategy awards are key to being a strategist. First the articulation and the story at the heart of our strategy and then the second part if you're lucky enough to make it through the ability to stand up to present to respond to questions to persuade to argue. So it's really kind of one of it one of a kind and it's great to be a night you say if there's one thing you can do out there as a strategist. If you are as you say mark on your own in an organization trying to further your discipline get onto the APG. There's a thing called the think tank where we've made every paper to over 200 papers available. Abel you need to be able to access it as a member or if you can get on to walk and under walk and every day just read one of those papers. It's got every story from Dove try something new today from Sainsbury's from you know from Honda hate something it's got iconic brilliant stories of strategic awesomeness. And if there's a pep up read in the morning, that's sure as hell. It's one of those awesome awesome. Alright, well, we did jump through a lot of topics, but I think most of them can really come back to culture and helping people understand the beliefs and the behaviors that drive. Of good planning, you know and I think even just talking about mental health. There's a behavior in there that comes from a belief that not not expecting people to turn themselves off at work or not. Creating duress through work is something that a planning leader needs to be aware of and if they're not, you know, go somewhere else. I'm joking Matt where you most active on the internet, I guess probably Twitter. I've got a bit of a love-hate relationship with Twitter. I sort of go for it and then I step back because of all the sort of fierce debate and come. It has been Twitter and that too at matter is where it is where I'm at. Probably probably best to catch me. You can always find a happy place on Twitter man. Thank you so much for joining us today on sweat head.
Matt Tanter is the Chief Strategy Officer at Grey London and the Chair of the Account Planning Group (APG). As far as planning credentials go, CSO + Grey + London + Chair of APG = legit. He's a leader who's interested in culture over process and I thought I'd talk to him about this focus to help companies trying to bring in planning understand that you can't just drop in a planner and have planning. Planning happens within an operating system - a city, an agency type, an agency, the philosophy of the agency, the processes of the agency, and the attitudes of managers. We discuss: - Establishing a good culture of planning - The pressures on planners right now - Managing up - Mental health in planning' - The APG and its creative planning awards  Shoutouts to all the lone planners or people trying to establish planning where it has never existed. You can find Matt here https://twitter.com/matttanter and the APG here https://www.apg.org.uk/    For more strategy talk: 1. Strategy drawings: http://www.instagram.com/markpollard  3. Strategy Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/markpollard 4. 