Now out of all the things that happened I think it's most consistent with the person being beaten here. Right? So if you have cast off here and then you also have impact spatter, right? So we're we're hits the blood we had and then get started on the wall. So we have those two things together. Okay. Now we're putting together two pieces two different blood stains in correctly spatter, and that's what it's called in Clemson spatter not splatter. That's right. When you TV people that think your crime-scene experts and say splatter.You're wrong. So say spatter and you can I say sighs. I have a joke where I talk about blood spatter and I make sure I always say spat make sure I say it for all the people out there who still quell who are in the know right? You know who recognize the word for whatever reason if you're a mess when you know, the medicine medical world or forensics or cop if you just know that word spatter. It's like the saying it correctly. It's a secret handshake of the blood stain pattern. And analysts because now that the viewers know that right they're going to watch some Chief get on TV talking about a crime to be like, yeah, it was splattered over here or over there too. Yeah. Well, you know what it does is it kills that hey, what's up everybody? We're back man up here in Ossining New York to palatial Estates. It's me Mark the mayor with my partner in law enforcement Bill Cannon and we are here once again for police off the cuff before we start I just want to get this shirt on camera. Artie find artifacts station is is a shirt as a group that works with the veterans and the gold star families and they're looking for volunteers. I did a show a couple of months ago and like any good cop when I'm doing these benefit shows. I always like to look through a scam a couple T-shirts and always like right. Yeah, whatever whatever I can get. I'll take one of those hats to about a sweatshirt and I'm the comedian. I'm your headliner. So I have these shirts and then like I'm thinking to myself I threw it on today and this one's actually really comfortable. It's the fabric is awesome. And then I'm thinking to myself. You know, what I'm going to start wearing these shirts. So at least we get to promote them in the the good stuff that these causes feel Detective Pat. You just have to get the Extended Cut. He said that Pat and I'm me and what we want to hopefully we're going to get an address soon so we can we can start giving you an address. So if you want to send t-shirts to us and stuff like that. I'll have an address. I think you want to celebrate we definitely we have some good news coming up. I don't know how much Bill we were allowed to share about it. But we got good things coming up with the show because of you our supporters. We were moving on up and something might happen soon. So, you know, once we get like an address, I'd love to have like an Australian Cop come on just like to hear his accent. You know, we're good. We got have salts whatever feeling shrimp off the Bobby whatever we wanted to do. With that with this show is going to become possible very sensibly and we can't divulge too much more. Hopefully by the time this one comes out will actually be will be able to say more. But without further Ado I want to bring out my guest. I worked with him in the police department not really on crime scenes, but he used he was one of our guest speakers when I used to do the homicide cause I used to work in the training unit and they have detective homicide course, that is a two-week course. Course and we have investigators that come from all over the country and they hang out for two weeks and they listen to the best of the best on breaking down homicide crime scenes and one of the best of the best of the speaker that we used to get and look forward to having was a John Belushi Sergeant John pollution. Appreciate that. Yeah. He's just like he's also got his own company forensics for all that. He goes and re investigates cases in other parts of the Korea for real. Real for real won't the phone. Okay, so we jump to a ready we're doing now, I guess that's the show then shall we want to start from the beginning we start with the beginning. How old are you know, what day were you born now? I remember you from the homicide course, you're very interesting guy you're quiet. But you man you were to martial arts to I did boxing, you know is boxing. Yeah. What else is your other thing that I think you do, but what all kinds of stuff every time I see your face like you so sing. Yes, ya got me cycling and the road cycling and I did a did a trip down to Washington DC and we talking about a nice bike or motorcycle about that too. But right around the bicycle to Washington DC was a lot harder than riding a motorcycle. What would you do that for? I never get that. I never understood. I was getting to like something with catch my interest to her and I get really into it, you know see but why you run the bike going don't you think to yourself? Maybe we should have taken a car kid. Imagine. I'll tell you how I was in good shape. I would I know you will you've always been in good shape but was like together as a cop now is never my cock. Yeah, we had those in housing. No, I meant when it first came out that was to hit him in the to for in the 90s. That was when I first came the only thing hiding that harder than hiding that bike was hiding a horse if you want mounted man hiding that freaking horse. Yeah kind of like when she took that bike out what we're going to do it you had to change it to a pole somewhere and hope there was there when you come back I learned that quick, you know, if there's four of you and all four of you jump off and Chase somebody there's going to be maybe to one or two bites left back if that's what I want. I would have to stay in Safeguard the vice Consul and also look out for the fishing wire that they'd string up around the Project's just looking for the man. That was some scam that by kuna men do they still have that? Yeah. I think they do anyway, so where you from so I was born I was born Manhattan actually in a hospital that doesn't exist anymore which one flower Fifth Avenue. I think that was the one I was once ever that's pretty wild you guys don't exist. I swear to God, I think that's where I was born to. Were you born 64. Okay. Yeah, actually my birthday is Sunday. So I see you got me by three years. I was born 67. Yeah, so you might have been the last guy ever born there. Was it close that soon? I don't think so. I think it lasted a little while. I think unless it's a nice name for Hospital, right? Yeah flower V. They don't have those anymore. You not follow boys hard to be a tough guy and say were born a flower for this is what is you live growing up? I grew up in Mount Vernon, New York. Really? Yeah or west. Chester God bless you made it out of there. Yeah, made it out of there. Yep, and then my family moved up to Larchmont. They made the big bucks that wow, you got a good will be moved up to log one got a good house at a bank was getting rid of for a cheap price and I remember ten years old. No one had a scrape wallpaper and do stuff like that. Yeah. My dad was genius. You know, what's funny is? Ooh, he was a consultant. I'm kind of following in his footsteps now, but he was a consultant so he knew how to manage money. Yeah. He was a Harvard it's amazing to be around people like that. I would love to have your dad became a cop him being a Harvard alumnus. I was kind of straying from the yeah the PHD route and that's so easy. So many of my family have phds. I don't want to do that. I want to be the rebel that's it. You know one time I was down at the DA's office and hope nobody has a PHD in my family but says to me Sergeant we I want to humanize you in front of of the jury. Where is this? This is the DA's office. I was going to go on the stand and she goes I'd like to humanize you in front of the jury. She goes. Could you tell me what your educational background is? And I said, yeah. I have an A A A B A and M S and a pmf and she says I know what an AA is a ba and an MS. She goes. What's a pmf I go. I'm a bad motherfucker. I was so sorry. She like all shades of red. Is good. That's it. Goes. They've got choked a while. You know how many meetings you have to go to before you can say I have an AA event a I was by Nestle Community a somehow. I accumulated probably around 30 credits in the Queensboro. Did you have enough to go on the police academy? Didn't you need we didn't eat it. Then we need to you know, you needed was a GG need to be a now to go on the police department and I think Associates maybe Russell to you. Ears or waste what a waste of time military I could I would prefer but so so you grew up in launch minor we could go to high school with the Mamaroneck High School to play her Sports and stuff. Manic. That's a good high school. It was very good high school. He didn't play sports. Where were you intimate? September Sports guy, you know, I was absent the music. You know, how you play music? I was that yeah, I play harmonica. Yeah. Yeah. See that's another thing. So, you know, I remember there's a bunch of stuff. Yeah, and just a harmonica player. They must have a Session for did you see them Satan and Adam documentary on I know who they are Alex but I know I know who they are. Yeah, they have a documentary right now and Netflix. It's awesome to check out to check it out. Yeah. Yeah. Satan was a guy who was used to be a big bands. So what was blues music and he's the play in Harlem and there was this guy Adam who just broke up with his girlfriend and just going on a trip, you know uptown just to get her out of his Head and he runs into this guy Satan and Adam plays the harmonica harmonica. Yeah good. Yeah, ask him if he can play it with him. And then the two of them stop playing together and he just the motivation the two of them working together. They pull themselves off that corner, even though they used to go revisit it all the time and then they went on tour. They had albums. Yeah, that's an amazing story. Then I got sick and fell off and then he came back again. You got to see the documentary signs to see that. Yeah. I had a good run with the music. So what do you do with the harmonica? Where do you play? I haven't been playing that much like recently since I retired I haven't you would think you retire you going to do a lot more amusing. But yeah, it was within a couple bands. I was in a blues band. It was mostly cops in that band where called the shade tree. Mechanic saw John John Lawson. Yeah. Well this knowledge and bass player great. But yeah, yeah. Yeah fantastic in the to four years ago. He's a really good news about Lieutenant Steven Harris ever play with him. He's gonna be sounds familiar. I heard he's a really good guitarist to yeah. I have to go out and see him play. Yeah, you know, he's been to a couple of my comedy shows already. Anyway, so so where were you playing this Monica? You don't play that much anymore. Not so much. I'm tired. You got to know. I know I've been I moved up to Dutchess County. You know, I live on a horse farm. I just kind of weather I bet he can't play the harmonica out there. If anything you can go outside and just go off and do that. Yeah might start a stampede or something. I was like, there's some bridges The Bridges in Westchester and harmonica is cool man a lot of a school I started when A little too much should probably get annoying, you know, like every day if I had to hear it, I'd be like yo enough with the fucking harmonica. That's good versatile than you think Don Ho know you could want you can get Monica when you watch that play Class A name is Adam. Yeah fantastic and he watch what that guy can do with the harmonica and what a difference it made the guy was the Satan guy was great on his own. Yeah, like a one-man band and then this guy comes the same guy play everything at all everything. He was just watch the thing. He was a great singer. He was a great guitarist and he used to do some stuff with his feet. Ooh, like a drum thing. Well, it just amazing amazing. And anyway, so besides for the harmonica, how long ago did you retire? It's been about eight years now almost I got seven. Yeah, you get out in 2010. No 2011. That's when I go down. Yeah, seven got our nose. That was like I took some terminal. So why did you get out though? You had so much going on the job. You knew so much. Yes before like, let's just build tell us where John worked you be quiet right now. Just getting I'm seeing unit. But you're something people don't realize they see on TV crime scene and they weren't all these designer clothes. It's a nasty nasty job. It really is right. Yeah you remember our King was Lieutenant. I'm right and he was like guy though. Yeah, he was a stickler for a tie or whatever. Right? And he always said he goes the crime scene guys. They're the only ones in the bureau that you know, listen, you got your the blood yet leaning over you get your tie in that he gave us a story. That's a large list I fix. Suits right? Yeah that that sort of became more mandatory later in the debacle. It's got all the diseases. You got age. You can hear Titus A through Z, you know, it's not only that but what you leave behind to from yourself right right solo courts theory of exchange. How did you eventually get into the crime scene unit? It's an interesting story and I was going out I was hoping you would say that my girlfriend was worked in the chief of DS office, right? I was doing my was that the bodybuilding girl. Yeah. It was yeah. I remember her. Yeah, no, see that's another thing why I thought you were so cool. Because he's so he's so quiet. What yes it bodybuilding girl you all listen, you go up to the detective Bureau with the 14th floor and then it's a regular office. And in that regular office. You got this really beautiful girl. That's a bodybuilder like it. She's got a tight shirt, you know, like you could tell she's using phenomenal shape was she doing one of your pull-up says you got there was no it's listen. It's one of those things where she competes obviously as she used to write ya know. It's just for herself, but it's not one of those things. You can hide. She's big enough where you see It but she's not over big. It's just perfect and when you see a girl like that, you know what I'm saying? The first thing if you're a guy you like wow, you know, and then somehow I found out that that was your girlfriend and then I said to myself see quiet guys been so much going on this guy who'd have thunk it are you noticing me? I'm a loudmouth, you know I'm saying but you under the under the radar of it quite I loved it then I love it. So how did she get you into the crime scene? You saw what I was doing. Integrity time I did two years four months and 20 days and I need a promoted know if there had been a sergeant for a while. I tried to get back into the occp. I wanted to go to and then I got picked up. So I'm at the chief of these Christmas party. Right? She keeps having a few beers out Kings having a few beers. I'm talking with him and since Brands like yes Chief Brown, you know, so I said, This is Louis, you know about done with my IB time. I'm you know, looking to go somewhere he goes where you want to go. I said I said crime scene. He goes to they need to Sergeant. I said, yeah, they do he goes, let's go talk to the chief. Right? And you know how the Christmas party is, you know, bring them a couple beers and talk to him. He's like Chief. Did you swallow this into Carriage? He goes Chief. This is John. This is known as boyfriend and he's like, oh hey. John nice to meet you those John wants to go to Crime Scene. Chief says they need a sergeant he goes. Yeah. All right want to go to Crime Scene? Yeah. Okay, and so my answer the short answer is how'd you get the crime scene? I had to sleep with somebody, you know, it's a great story. Then that's the way it works. Yeah. I need a sergeant still for supervisor probably works that way but but for detectives it's a lot different like when I got there it was The Apprentice system. So, you know you learn from Joe who learned from Steve learn from Bob sir, but he kind of I had a different technique of doing things but they had they also had the unit on patrol evidence collection everything. Actually I came in. Yeah game that became like a stepping stone. Yeah how much stuff did you know before you got into crime scene because you're going there as a sergeant and you mentioned the other way is like an apprenticeship apprenticeship so that way you're learning but if you go there as a sergeant and you don't really know anything about crime scene and you just got a hook then you're basically you're at the back, you know, you're it's up to the To fill you in otherwise you could be like if they don't like you could just be like yeah. Yeah exactly. But I was I was really like a Hands-On kind of guy and I sat everybody down I said listen, I'm not the kind of guy that's spying on your checking on. Yes, and you understand I have my job to do but I'm showing up at all your jobs because I really I really I love this stuff and I want to learn it, you know, so, you know for let me just interrupt you for one second. Yeah, a lot of police departments to knows a lot of people listening across the country. They don't have a crime scene unit. The NYPD has a unit called crime. Seen that does all of the forensic evidence collection for homicide shooting serious assaults rapes things like that. And it's Unique because they're trained just to do that work to do the evidence collection some Police Department's the detective that response does everything, right? Yeah collects the evidence. He does the interviews and I mean just think that's overwhelming. If you had to collect the evidence interview people canvas stood. It's just too much work. Sometimes they have outside agencies or the Neighboring town which is bigger. The bigger city have their crime scene come in. What is they don't have that many homeless Corner? That's all you some little towns up a lot of times the sheriff's office in these towns they have because it's a bigger agency. They have designated crime scene unit or the state agencies like Matisse involved I think is necessary to it's probably better to have guys that are just designated to collect the evidence. Yeah, especially, you know, you think about New York City during the crime scene guys were like firemen like the Bell Rings you go out you do you A job you come back because I mean here you're the guys in the squad doing all the ground pounding knocking on doors putting it all together while you're waiting for lab results from all the stuff that we collected and all that but we go, you know from job to job to job and that's that's pretty much the way it had to be. You know, there were a lot of most of the cases you never got any follow up on it, you know, sometimes you were interested in it, you might call the guy who caught the case you say this whatever happened with that. That's what's Bill was mentioning about the well he wants to talk about that is the TV shows, you know, and Close to your to reality. I like the TV shows. I'm a buff that way but when you said a lot of time working in crime scene, you don't really most of the time you don't know the outcome of the case and when you watch those TV shows it always seems like the crime scene guys are still involved with that case all the way to the end like they're given a yeah, we got him at the end. You don't even know what's going on hollers their interview with pipes again in the shootouts in Hunt something always explodes right besides that I went. To nothing as detectives investigated. You can't you can maybe count on one or two hands how many times forensic evidence is the Smoking Gun? You know most of the time it's a confession. You know what I mean? Yes the work of the detective getting a confession of something like all or witness when you get that fingerprinted to like, holy shit. We got him. We got his fingerprint. There was a case of this girl Catherine woods and the Upper East Side remember that guy? I'm the one who cut the wall out those today. Yeah, that's that me and detective Hester. What happened? What happened was there was two suspects the boyfriend she lived with which I'll the detectives felt. She says she's what was that was he was obviously murders but was Odin has knife that could cut a head off. But yeah color throat. Yeah, the second guy who was a boyfriend. She was breaking up with the detectives felt. He's the guy for some reason they let him go not on the detectives were one of the big boys have said no, but But take a statement. Let him go. He turned out to be the guy right but now he lawyers up. So now they can't talk to him anymore and they kept the crying scene open four days, which was smart and they didn't have the forensic evidence that they sent the Emmys office forensic investigation team. And I guess the luminol is what made it show up. What's up? Yeah, so better than me. Yeah Bears. So essentially there was he said that he was never an apartment right the yoga instructor Guru. Songwriter guy right since yogurt yeah, you're right now. Yeah right now is does yoga soundboard all go away. We line it watch out, right? So yes, so he said he was never in the apartment though. I think right somebody lock them into that statement, which was Parts it so like you said, I mean, that's the real police work, you know, the forensic stuff is an important tool but that which I kind of stuff how important is that trial he took the stand and he said yes, I had consensual sex with her. Her and she was having a period right and I wiped it on the wall. Right and the thing was and I didn't know this until I learned this is that menstrual blood is different than regular bloody. I didn't do any analysis ahead of time for that though. I was sort of like his little surprised you didn't meet up and yes oceans Desk Reference that the right if I could think was not a day when he cut her throat, you know, what happened to when we were in there the bed was up against the wall, right and and dungeons National Force, huh? It was like he picked it up. Like I put it like a fold. I don't know if EMS did it. We don't know who did it really nobody admitted to doing it, you know, and I don't think he did because once it came down there were bloody Footprints all over the bedding right so might have been EMS or somebody, you know how it is people are really admit, you know windows are open what happened at what was that light on? It was a TV off, you know, like so so we get there but one of the things that really kills that story for him is her throat was cut and when you preach an artery it As a distinctive pattern we call like an arterial gush, right because arteries are the blood spatter. Yeah. Those are the vessels that are under pressure. Right? So it's pushing out and creating this arterial blood stain pattern on the wall and his handprint altered one of those blood drops from the arterial pattern, right? So there it's very big. It's think about like think about a garden hose. Right? Like if you have it under pressure, you can make a fine Mist out of it. If you have it open wide, it still will be do you know what is going to Beat it wants to be round. That's what that's the nature of the liquid and stuff. So they'll blood similar is different viscosity. So you have these arterial patterns on the wall, and then an alteration in it, you haven't you had me at fingerprint under the bed, but you want to hear something but that wasn't the Smoking Gun when the the d8 they took a vote initially when they took a vote I heard it was like 12 something six people didn't think he was guilty welcome and then it came They kept working and they just you know, it was convinced. It was then 12 nothing but I heard it wasn't like unanimous. So just think if they didn't think that his bloody fingerprint behind the bed was The Smoking Gun that showed he did it. Right? What do you have to have to need video of the guy doing it? That's the thing. Yeah. That's what it's coming down to that's what it's coming down to every I wonder if video evidence will become part of crime scene unit now because it's so essential you look at the junior case the kid in the Bronx. We got killed by the Rival. Gang and that videotape is there's no way to beat it. They had cameras everywhere and most of the cases that you watch nowadays. So you see on the news that were accompanied by some sort of video and I'm wondering if the collection of that at some point since it's such valuable evidence will maybe you'll get a videotape guy in the crime scene and that'll be his job to go out there and collect it. All even if it's the the foot guys doing the detectives doing the knocking on the get collecting it but making sure it all comes under neath the follows. Into one guy rude does that error doesn't but they hold on to it though because just they usually get they usually give it to the detective. Don't they? Yeah, they usually do they turn it off of what it's requested guys to didn't major case have a unit like for the for the Gypsy Cab robberies and things like that. They would download the yeah be careful with that stuff because one slip and you lost everything people ask about like like what's a good career my kids in college. He wants to be in forensics. I always say you got to get it to video stabilization because it If you people are do it in the country that do it at or like certified and know how to do it. Well, I work with this guy and what is that? And so if you have a camera like so we'll talk out. We'll get it this case a little later but the Walter Scott shooting down in Charleston and got films it with a cell phone, right and he's moving to cell phone around he's walking. So the frames are all out of it out of whack and there's ways to sort of like break that down frame by frame, you know, sometimes overlay a frame to make it a little more. More powerful and and you know, this is not my thing at all. You know, I've just heard him testify and talk about something like you messing with the evidence then if you getting a video to yeah, you're but see there's ways that's that's where pays to be certified. Right? So if we had some software we kind of say, you know, what we could do this stuff, right and we started messing around with it. Then we get on a witness stand. It's like well, where did you learn how to do that when I learned it on, you know adobe.com, right? So but but the guy who does it he's that's just think so. It's really It's an enhancement. It's just like when you get a fingerprint like a photograph of a fingerprint and somebody puts it into Photoshop and doesn't enhancement on it to bring out the characteristics the ridge detail and all that kind of stuff. So you say what do you put in Photoshop? I gave a lecture to a bunch of lawyers for continuing legal education. And I said something about using Photoshop enhancement for something like C use Photoshop because people think you know, you can put your face on my head and do it, right. So what can you photoshop sir hocus-pocus? Focus thing but if it's used correctly, it's a forensic tool and it works really well, you know, so but so what I'm talk about with the video stabilization think about it every cop is going to have a body can write and you ever see body cam footage. It's been It's usually the exactly what you're selling and exams in the way that what you said. Yes that choppy footage exactly. So before they get to the point where they have if they ever do, you know body cams did give you a very clear image very clear. Lucien video you're going to have to do a lot of enhancement to make that all come out plus and then there's a second portion of that which is the audio enhancement, you know, it was a deal also with the Walter Scott case. Well, you know, those recently just a cop was on top of this car booster in the Bronx so that negated his body Cam and the guy pulled a gun on him and he shot him twice, but you couldn't see anything because he was laying on top of the guy. Yeah any other copper? I don't know what he was doing was standing there when he should have been on top of the guy. I don't want a Monday Morning Quarterback, but the other compacts wind up shooting him twice, but you could not see anything. Yeah, let's go now the audio sometimes I can't help. You know, exactly. Did you warn them? Did you say drop the gun? I forget exactly his word something. I have a gun. I want to go I want to kill you or something. Like I did. He said something like that. You mentioned something about working in crime scene that it was a similar to the fire department in a way waiting to get cold. So I wanted to for you to take us almost step-by-step through your nose. Somewhere and there's a homicide you only go on homicides. Well, the protocol is a lot bigger than that, but for the most part, it's harmless except if it's of rate below 96th Street it right in you go. Yeah rapes homicides, you know, that's the case that came into my head wondering if crime scene would probably get called they will call they would prop rapes but you'll go if you have to articulate doing that phone call, you have to articulate to the crime scene boss. I would imagine yeah what you have there and then it's your call whether you should go or not. Yeah, and a lot of times I turned into a big, you know, tug-of-war butting heads and stuff because sometimes you'll be the sergeant there and I would imagine you're communicating with somebody of a higher rank. Yeah, and he's telling you we need you over here and you're like, well, we're in the middle of watching Bachelor right now knows would want you to go to burglaries where property of course just to get that all time. It's not coming to that and you have to have the latitude. She'll Chief Jones has kid his car got broken into and sixties get the cart Blanche from your boss. Yeah, if you're following the protocol, what does he want a phone call? If somebody's busting your chops something a lot of times it comes to that, you know, and I might have to go to the head of the division or whatever depending on what it is. You know, what time there was a getting ready to do a search warrant. And so it was for a homicide suspect. So Lieutenant calls me up and he goes yeah, we're doing the search for it. So you get meet us at the precinct. We're owing to do the tack meeting, you know, so we don't we don't go to tack meetings, you know, like well, why would we you know, so tactical it's like, you know tactical meeting prior to the search warrant. So you get to know who everybody is and he's like no but we got to know who you guys are. I'm like, we're the ones with the blue windbreakers. That's a police crime. That's gonna be us, you know, he's like you got he's getting pissed he goes. No, you got to beat the tech meeting I said, listen, that's where the peaceful police we don't do it. You know, my days are kicking doors in her over. That's how I got dressed, right? Yeah, exactly. You know you go in there you secure the bushes, but if you have the wrong boss, you might you guys might be going to all that. Yeah, and another thing the one day we had a double murder in the to wait and John Erwin, who's the chief da is on the scene and I said in you guys to do the scene ago. You need a search one. I said no, I don't the detective is telling me I need a search I said the da is on the scene telling us we don't need a search warrant. Yeah, we understand it was like, you know, dude I didn't want to argue with you. Yeah get here, you know. Are you talking about the detective from crime scene? Yeah, he's telling me we need a search one DA's on the scene with that unless you know, you don't you don't need one. You know, who's the better the chief? D'Italia know the DA's took a lot of they took a lot of Chances with some with some of that stuff. Sometimes know we used to argue with them every once in a while. Well, sometimes we would just go above and beyond just to make sure hundred percent that they evidence like what they pull away from you if you have Plain View yet. You don't that's an exception to a search warrant show had that on this case. It was all in plain view we see. It's getting such one. Anyway, yeah, I know. Yeah, we did. So yeah, definitely it's good to you know, for the Intensive Covey arrest one. Yeah, but will you getting pulled in the direction by the da Squad the same way that you were getting pulled by let's say chiefs like da wants you to be at a meeting or just go to a crime scene that you normally wouldn't go go to because the DA's involved in that case not the DA's nah, but a lot of times within our own Department, you know, if the CEO sends us on something Hey, listen, I got a call from the chief and you know, No, we don't normally do this but we're going to do that. What's the time frame between you guys getting a call and you guys okay, we're going to go to that one. How long does it can we expect you? It depends on what we're doing and could be at another case. There's a police involved shooting. It's you know, like when Russell tymoshenko got killed like for instance the whole unit was there we called the whole unit there for that. What are the hours would what towards you guys? It's sort of like a backwards Squad. Right. So the first tour is a seven-to-three. It's a four-day week First tours a seven-to-three next towards the seven-to-three you come in at 1400 on the third one and work straight through till zero eight hundred the next day. So that's actually an 18 hour tour. Wow, and of course, you know when shit always happens right three o'clock in the morning when you've already been there 13 hours, right? Yeah. So what happens then if you got it, you'd been at the point where like, it doesn't matter how much espresso they put in your coffee your Just you are dragging ass and your body goes into a different Zone. Somebody's somebody seems to like, you know, 20 hours. Just I just want to say you mentioned the Russell tymoshenko case and I happen to know that was an amazing case for the crime scene unit. And I'm just what I'm referring to is for viewers that don't know Russell. Tymoshenko was a young copy when we sort of cost up the windows were heavily tinted there's three or four guys in the car and he was basically executed they were able to identify the shooter but DNA on the trigger guard, isn't that correct? Now, I'm from some chicken that was in there. Yeah. Well, yeah another person also in the fight by that but it was that the truth that they actually identified the shooter by his DNA on the trigger. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. That was that's unbelievable work. Yeah invite the other purpose in the car. Why did by this saliva on the chicken? Yeah can't make that shit out huge those big deal and innately fled to like Pennsylvania. We're trying to go hide in the in the mountains up there, you know brought like tuna fish and a bunch of stuff that they would have been barefoot. Food in about you know two days. But yeah, we had helicopters. That's not a good idea is good good police work. That was great know everybody, you know dedicated I'd go to another big city and hide in plain sight if I go up there out of my Element. No way definitely dead up there that Steiner no real. Yeah, of course wish into our engineer. Yeah Andrew Steiner he had this case where the psychiatrist was murdered on the Upper East Side stabbed to death by a former patient of her the code doctor in her office. I remember and that's final. Did a palm print of the suitcase? Yeah, which will you know, that's what I'm talking about the cases that you have nothing on and also you gotta we gotta we gotta hit on. Yeah, but like all my God, that was great because what you'll I think that was a blood print to right. Yeah. No, it wasn't. How was it though? It was just a kiss scene with it was a disaster. All right, was that was that Manhattan? Did you know he's been had I worked at your work that case? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was crazy and they you know, this is the big boss has got involved in that they were sending Tech detectors to Pennsylvania on someone who they thought was a suspect that none of the detectives did yeah, the guy was like a full-blown EDP the subject mostly just the person for our viewers. Yeah for are not emotionally disturbed viewers. So when you get to the scene now, you took you depending on what you would have you guys were up to you get to the scene what happens? What do you the case detective introduces himself to you? Tell you what he's got who does to you every single scene is different. Sometimes you get there and all there is is You know some crime scene tape up and the guy with the highest tax number standing there. And you say what do you got? I don't know. What are these guys? They're over there somewhere. We just don't have the people to be their old. So many guys don't give you the ideal guy show up how many crimes seeing across the my aim is to two detectives, you know, so whether or not a boss goes depends that they started to change the protocols to if there was a body on the scene a boss had to be I think that was a protocol when I was there, but, you know a lot of the bosses were Very well-read, you know sitting in the office and well-read guys and TV lieutenants, if you're watching Forensic Files accounts as in-service training because something like that, right, but yeah, I like that I like being on the scenes, you know, I like going out to the scenes. So so a team was to detectives. Yeah, and when you work that 18 our tour you had three teams for the whole city for the whole night, which is crazy right? So let me know supplement. Seems real yeah and one-sided for the whole sex right now. Was it? Yeah. The sergeant is doing that 18-hour to or two. Yeah, I think now they work steady tours. But the whole thing was you stayed with your squad when I was here. He stayed with his Squad. So you had the same guys all time you making crazy over time there or what? Yeah, you know, it keeps us feast or famine. Yeah, you know that we always had I think we had like a like a black umbrella that was like for the black cloud because it was always one sergeant. That was always getting stuck with all the police involved shootings. Right and those things were a nightmare because you know, that's when He was a PC and you had to have a sketch drawing up to him for this whatever time it happened five six o'clock in the morning ten o'clock. You want some briefing. He wants everybody there. He wants to know everything right? So now we're know what used to write the pulmonary investigation. Yeah piw. Yeah and sometimes like on a police shooting. It could be 20 something pages long sure, I would start at say whatever time they say, it's seven eight o'clock at night. I'd still be like hustling to get it done by 6 a.m. Yeah. Yeah, and you know everyone would be sticking it dbe's on you, you know, yeah, cause you're so stressed. Yeah, and you know, you can't write this to you have that number. You can't do that to you get this number. You can't do that to you talk to this guy, you know, so right it was it's like doing a research report at work. Yeah. Yeah believe me. It was a nightmare, you know just have all the stuff ready in it. It regards to when you get to the crime scene though. This is going to be a catching detective he's going to be the one who's in charge of is he going to show you what happened in this is what I want you to can you see if there's a fingerprint here? We see we thought it came in over here or do you guys help them out or you guys take control the best of all possible worlds right in the the Pulaski scenario, right? Which actually I like them then and he liked me, you know. But he had you know, as you had the warmed alcohol and prepare a little Chardonnay on the side right here so I but but I mean it the best possible scenario is you show up at the scene. Like I said, you have the catching detective there somebody who's very well-informed, you know, and and gives you an idea what happened and especially because by the time we get all our stuff together get out the door me we're pretty much ready to go, but it takes a while we need a notification. Should from a detective Bureau member right? It's actually did it was just a bull take the viewer supervisor. Yeah. So by the time we get our our act rolling out the door wherever we are because you guys are usually at least in the borough. Sometimes we'd have to get through traffic and all that stuff. So the best possible scenario is you get there and you get informed what the guys have you might be getting to look at some video. Even you just you know, you never know how far along it kept effective on a homicide should be Be there when crime scene gets there. Yeah, tell you what, he thinks happened. Well what to look for evidence was right and if they're not there they got like should get their asses they have because they're going to have to testify to that in court someday. No, I mean if they're not there to meet you guys tell you this is what I want you to do. This is what I think happened, right? I mean, yeah when you guys supposed to be soothsayers to, you know, just read the crime scene by feeling around. Well, sometimes it's just as you can do that. Yeah, and you know what honestly like forensically speaking. The least amount of context that you get the better, you know, so if you come up to me say listen, John Petrucci, then we're going to nail that motherfucker. I know he's dated three more of these and you know, and then we're all we're looking at is stuff to incriminate John pallucci. So, you know, we get the pizza leave the cabasa loan over there, right, you know, so if you know, you know I'm saying but so you have some preconceived notions in your head it actually it's like work in a scene with blinders on you know, so a lot of times, you know what it knows not even the least amount. Mount the better, you know, you want to you want an idea how big it is where did was have been inspecting? He was there at the Upper East Side that case that time. I can't think of his name. You know who I'm talking which one what year was this path? This 2005-6. I don't know five six. We have Billy Aubrey. No, it wasn't him McCarthy that doesn't know but he was in that crime scene and he described exactly where The attack took place by reading the evidence. I was pretty damn impressed with that. No kid, especially on this blood spatter. This is what for started and took the cast off Stan. Like wow. This guy knows it's nice. Yeah. Could you do that sometime in what you do is you look for you got to be very careful not to say exactly what happened. You know, I mean, this is what I think say like so like you said Casta this is cast off you say, okay. I'm seeing blood stains that are consistent with blood being cast off. Of an object in motion. So there was a bloody object in motion here, right? So can I say this is where he whacked the guy over the head. Maybe not maybe he's running away from the scene and you know goes to throw it and that's where the castle you got it. So you got to be real careful to not again absolute stroke yourself in. Yeah, exactly. And so you can say like once you have everything together you can say, you know, this this mechanism is what caused that blood stain pattern to resolve right this cast off mechanism now, Of all the things that happened I think it's most consistent with the person being beaten here. Right? So if you have cast off here, and then you also have impact spatter, right? So we're weather where it hits the bloody head and then you get spatter on the wall. So you have those two things together. Okay. Now we're putting together two pieces two different blood stain patterns. We see John says it right but people think he said incorrectly spatter and that's what it's called a necropsy spatter not splatter. That's right. All you TV people that think your crime-scene experts and say splatter you're wrong. So say spatter and you can I say I have a joke where I talk about blood spatter and I make sure I always say spat and it make sure I say it for all the people out there who still quell who are in the know right? You know who recognize the word for whatever reason if you're a mess when you know, the medicine medical world or forensics or cop if you just know that word spatter. It's like the saying it correctly. It's a secret handshake of the blood stain pattern analysis. Because now that the viewers know that right, they're going to watch some Chief get on TV talking about a crime should be like, yeah, it was splattered over here or over there to going to be the guy. That's the BPA. Yeah. Well, you know what it does is it kills that that the question is this guy full of shit or not, right, you know, they hear a word like that like, okay. This guy might be freely may know what he's talking about. He's got some mileage. I like mentioning that word and the joke. Yeah, definitely. So you get to this crime scene. Now you see you mentioned the crime scene where they got the one guy. Who's standing in front of there? And you ask them what happened is I don't know something. I don't so those are the small ones. Nobody's really paying attention to those but then I would imagine there's obviously crime scene that are like what's like the biggest one I ever went to well how fox really running gun battles. Yeah, sometimes sometimes you have to break those into sections, you know those up in Washington Heights. Yeah shooting in Department homicide buns that runs out onto the street the whole neighborhood's Jason again, he turned shoots a guy keeps running goes toward Goes West called Jack Secord shoots him. Wow, what a nightmare were crimes. And now when we get involved and it's palpable, so when you guys show up you have to start from what you think is point a where it's where initiated and then you got to go through all the steps, right? Yep. Kerosene is different. You know, I mean some scenes that there's a clear like access and egress like they probably came in this way and left that way and those are those are points where you can find good evidence as well. So sometimes you want to start like the way like just just like you said the way it looks like things logically progressed, you know, sometimes there's barriers within the scene outdoor scenes can have stuff like a hill, you know, like maybe the body is all the way at the bottom of the hill, you know, like he's like, he's the last guy you're going to want to last part of the scene you're going to want to do with you know, and so it's every single scene. You just got to go with the mindset like every single scene is different you want to get information where you can as far as the size. The crime scene is that that's one thing that we always kind of do wrong is establishing the boundaries. That's where it really starts establishing the boundaries of the crime scene and we typically make it too small. Sure, right and how many times they had. We had one in Brooklyn one time where this guy went on a stabbing spree and and so they set up like a whole block blocked off this whole block and of course the news Vans coming they put their stanchions out and their antennas that go way up in the air and all that stuff and then we find out that he actually had going into another ER store and open some cabinets and left bloody prints in there. So now we got you know, listen, we got it. You guys got crimes got to move all this shit, but it's already been contaminated too though, because the people are so we always say make estimate the size of the scene and then double it. Wow, you can always make it smaller. It's real easy to make it small you just are you know, we don't need that area, but when you got to make it bigger, I remember you talking about that in the homicide course. Yeah specially when it's a major thoroughfare that you have to close. Yeah. All right. Yeah, did you go in with a strong stomach? Because I'm sure you saw stuff that even would freak the average cop out. I think that was one of the best parts of the unity I teach for Henry Lee sometimes up in New Haven and I what is that Henry leaves a forensic scientist. He was like the guy on the old JK's and yeah, he's been around for so long time. You said you teach for him? Yeah. I was teaching a shooting as a class. He has school. He has an Institute university New Haven. Yeah. Okay, so he has he's in a part of and the new University of New Haven. Yeah, he's got it's like a space-age buildings really really awesome. So yeah private investigators that go to that course, he's going to that course cops. Okay, so I actually for the first time like I go all over the country doing cases and doing conferences and doing lectures. I never see NYPD guys anywhere, you know, it's kind of it's sad to say but you know, I mean it's a very intense job to go for training, you know, yeah, it's expensive to go for training on stuff. Yeah, so even you know active being active or retired But this time I had for Crime Scene guys, right? So they're like and they weren't crime scene guys when I was in crime scene, but they were ECT guys when I was training a lot of people and they're like, we remember you saw a generic only sorry felt kind of good, you know, and I was like, I'm John there like now we're gonna call you son. Good people. You know, my wife still cool so such. Yeah, that's a whole nother story make absolutely and she comes off when she steps in the door. I guess she doesn't watch this video. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so so we went out to dinner, right? Yeah, and we're talking about Bloody this and that, you know, like and all leading and I see not it's what I miss is is like you said the strong stomach we could sit there at the dinner table. Like when we had the luxury of all being able to eat together or to some food and just tell some of the nastiest stories and nobody would ever. Oh my God. What are you doing? Somebody's eating it's having to be there for hours and hours in that scene. Yeah when it's Five degrees Yeah, that's the horror. I'll tell you what though. What what I realized was when you're there. You have a mission, you know, I mean, so if you got to go through a bunch of coagulated blood to look for a you know, bullet jacket or something small like that you're going to do it. So many times like is being the supervisor. I'd be out on the scene working it with the guys. I was always, you know where to get my hands dirty with them and stuff and I come back to the office and you know a week or so later when they wrote up the case. I'd be sitting in there with my coffee there could be auditioning feet up and I'm looking at the pictures. I'm like, this is fucking magic that was there, you know, but it sounds like that's what it bothers me because I moved because I don't have that that purpose, you know, when you're on the scene you have that that sort of met you got a mission, you know you own in crime scene during 911 now no, I was I was at the cic course. Well, I ended up. Yeah, I was I was there. Well, then you're getting trained. Yeah that too but not one 9/11 happened, but I was in the cic cuz I wasn't like If you have a to taught it to write ya later on in my career. I thought if see I see I see yes I started that's why I started the day. It was a Tuesday. I remember because my old partner was in there from narcotics, right and you this guy was a he was a character. He's you know, a little little PTSD kind of situational many women of fans of this crime scene stuff the CSI stuff that if you didn't have a girlfriend he went to a bar. All you have to do is I'd be a wingman. I would just ask you an open-ended question like Tell us about the scariest crime scene tell me about it. And then you could just talk really loud before you know, we have a nice little party that you can pick out whoever you want and I've had students come up to me and say I want to be CSI. Everybody does I said, well, you have to become a cop first. I don't want to do that. Oh, no, I won't do that. I just want to go right into CS I said, well, you know, there's no CSI Institute like on the back of the matchbook that you take do. I asked you that about the private investigators because are there people who? Really are into crime scene stuff and evidence collection and then they do it privately and they can bring it to their Pi business. Is that something that's done? Yeah. It is some people hired and by these small towns or let's say you wanted to hire your own crime scene guy to go to a scene because you're the defendant right? That's that's what I do now actual really I'm doing I'm still handsome. Yeah making that. Yeah hang buddy. Yeah significations. How much is it? Our charge to twenty five an hour while I like this. Let it boil fees. That's good. Yeah, God like someone in the police business is charging. Loyally fees these fucking lawyers. Yeah. Tell anyone. That's why that's who hires me all the time. You know good choice. Yeah three. Yeah. That's a sought-after thing that it's so you don't know specific doing it really very few people now, that's all I thought you were gonna say Allah time now. No, it's I don't know anybody else who doesn't do it. I'd love to The learn how to do something to make some money's get out of this rut some more crime scene jokes because I don't have a strong stomach though. If I was a sergeant in that unit, I'd be showing up and have the mascot to be like, I put it down for a sec. Okay, you guys it looks good guys. I'll be heading back to the office. Let me know if you need to scratch it while you got there eating like canned octopus or something. You don't care, right? Yeah, it's weird because you get used to it, but you're at a higher level. Like I always thought it was interesting and you go into a Active Squad and everybody has the we used to use Polaroid's remember that and everybody had these Polaroids and a lot of times it wasn't for shock effect that it was on your desk. It was just it didn't make it into the case folder, but you can walk by anybody's desk and then just pick up a stack of photos and it will be the scariest most grotesque thing. You ever saw some guys used to make a thing out of it. They, you know, put a thumbtack in it, you know and have a horn a little like, oh, yeah. Yeah that whole wall of that stuff, but I remember sitting at somebody's desk and just They want on a DOA take a look at it through the pictures. Whoo, but you this was a constant thing every single day with you. That's the only thing that you saw the ad has been there's been studies about that having like a PTSD kind of effect, you know, and it's really true. We like a lot of people we think that every cop has PTSD. Yeah. I agree with that much Bill and I were talking and I was telling him that I think they should every officer should be assigned therapist when they get on the job. Almost the same way that you're assigned a district surgeon and you have to go twice a year to this therapist. So there's no Stigma attached to it because everybody has to do it and then if you want to continue going for whatever reason or the therapist feels like, you know, maybe you need some more sessions then you then you can go and it's completely Anonymous, you know, nobody has to know your business everybody's going so it's not a big deal anymore Apartments really serious about suicide prevention. They should spend the money. The and we should because you talked about the PTSD all these things that you see their little little PTSD things. There's shocking things that you shouldn't see the average person and they affect you in a way. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, sometimes they're the only thing that keep you from from coming like when you're with a girl you like God, I didn't bring a gun in case you guys are worried but you know like those times where you got to think about something really bad. So this way you perform better. Once man, that poor guy died in his living room and you know how the gas collects the guys collected in his balls. It was the to beach balls. Those are polarized that were very popular. Right? My people used to want to see the guy with the big bulls. Yeah. That was something I thought about a lot. Yes photograph the crime scene because when you got back to the office and you put it on the screen, you can see things that you didn't see that. Yeah, you know what? I mean? He's all choked. There's a knife in the corner. Did you guys use that the camera the 360 camera tells us after my time. Really? Yeah, so there was a yeah, there's they use a scanner now like a let's call Laser scanner and it's a very powerful tool. All right, so like we could set one up in this room. Right and it'll scan the whole room and you could look at it looks like a photograph, you know, and you could you could go anywhere and zoom in on something and because it's a laser beam right the laser the machine actually knows. Is that I've fired a beam out to that wall and it was three feet six inches because the total length was was seven feet because it went to the wall and came back so half the length of the beam is the measurement and then you can take measurements between points. But you know, and it takes takes a little getting used to because if I set it up here in the middle of the room, we're going to see a bunch of stuff but then think about the the chairs are going to be shadowing some evidence. You're not going to be able to see behind the bar, right if they have it around moving it around. Yeah, and then you have to sort Stitch all these scans together because that is doing the sketch the final sketch. Yeah, you can actually you can download you can create like a sketch off of that if you want. Yeah, and it helps you break down that crime scene a lot quicker, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's got its advantages of clearly does you know and you don't lose stuff? Yeah, because obviously crime scenes change be prior to having that type of Technology. That's usually like when you could come there one day and go through your work and then go back to the crime scene the next day and Toby. Something different. Yeah, right. Yeah, definitely. It happened a lot. Right? Yes. That's why the thing I remember we were teaching a class on that we used to have it wasn't a robot. It was a thing that they used to use. It was set on a tripod and they started using it for car accidents in the homicide investigators course and yeah. Yeah. Well that was a total station, right they call toast and it took the camera just went around and took a 360 that the great picture for you. But now you're saying they do that with a laser which is even more effective. Yeah, actually the camera the priests. To the laser at least in our unit. That was at but the camera also was able to take a picture. We use that for member to Wall Street the woman who disappeared on Wall Street from Washington Heights. Well, you know remember her name now. She was Dominican woman. I think I think was a victim Martinez is sister or the last name was Martinez machine a duck. Yeah. She was yeah. That was the professional bodybuilder Victor Martinez. That was I think it's that pretty positive. That was his sister. Yeah for she worked in the Heights and they lived in the heights, but she was murdered downtown. I think she worked in a hotel or something. Right? She worked it some building down like in the Wall Street area here and she was in a duct somebody. Yeah, something's after up to the roof and put her. Duck. Yeah, yes construction thing that they missed the body the first time it was horrible it Colorado. Yeah made a collar on it guy had all scratches on him and stuff like that. Yeah, but I remember they used that camera on there and I was like, it's pretty cool. I mean you can pan and zoom all over the place and it's pretty amazing what they can just being able to look at it over and over again just the way they do on TV whenever New York the NYPD gets stuff that you see on TV. It's already witnessed stuff on TVs usually used Alice you know what I'm saying? But in time we got stuff that's why they're the best detectives. It's not because they know anything more than the other. It's what they have to work with. So, yeah, it's true other departments. Yeah, they have all this stuff like well, that's what the FBI has all these toys that when they get a case. They have nothing but money. Yeah. Yeah ERT was it love to burn on the Boston Marathon bombing because I would love to I bet you and I don't know for a fact but the Boston cops did most of the work on that. Don't know, huh? Yeah, I know that they had facial recognition technology, which was able to identify one of those on a have brothers from social media. And that's what got the ball rolling. Wow. That's really see the fights between boys gotta talk about that. Yeah, and we got to talk about 23 and me we got to talk about, you know, the DNA where you send your DNA. I want to know your opinion that we want to talk about facial recognition. As far as evidence is coming up and we're going to do all that and more on part 2 of police off the cuff with saw. agent John pooch
John Paolucci completed a diverse and groundbreaking career in the NYPD, spending his final eight (8) years as a supervisor in the Forensic Investigations Division. Four (4) of those years were spent as a Crime Scene Unit supervisor where he was responsible for responding to crime scenes to coordinate and assist in the identification, collection and documentation of all types of forensic evidence. He worked on many high profile cases and generated written synopses or ‘recaps’ that would be presented to executive level managers and often used to disseminate information to the media. From the Crime Scene Unit, he was selected to be the first ever commanding officer of a new unit called the OCME Liaison Unit. In this position, he would vet all DNA evidence submitted for analysis in the City of New York and was designated as the “One Voice” for the NYPD when outside agencies had any questions about forensic evidence either in the NYPD laboratory or at the Office of Chief Medical Examiner (OCME) for DNA analysis. His efforts drastically reduced DNA analysis turn-around times in New York City, and as a result he was awarded the Unit Citation by the Mayor and Police Commissioner in 2010. He was also promoted to Detective Sergeant in 2010. John Paolucci reviewed thousands of cases, often examining photos to determine if the forensic evidence that was collected would benefit from analyses other than those requested by the investigators. He worked with OCME to develop new protocols for documenting DNA evidence, and the entire NYPD’s forensic evidence collection practices were totally revamped based largely on laboratory analysis results that were collated and interpreted by Mr. Paolucci. In this capacity he trained thousands of NYPD and other federal and local agencies on the probative value of forensic evidence, documenting forensic evidence, and collecting DNA exemplars from suspects. In retirement, John formed Forensics 4 Real Inc. to impart his knowledge and understanding of forensic evidence and crime scene investigations to students of forensics as well as law enforcement first responders and investigators by providing a true to life perspective on how evidence is identified and handled in the field as well as in the laboratory. He also works as an expert witness and has worked on homicide investigations in the states of Kentucky, Texas, South Carolina as well as his native New York State. John was also hired to travel to Paraguay to exhume a body to collect DNA evidence as part of an international insurance fraud investigation. Despite interference from the government that almost resulted in his arrest, John was able to conclude that the body buried in Paraguay was not the insured, saving the insurance company over $3 million. (From his consulting site, https://www.forensics4real.com/ ) 