Snapchatter just talking to teachers talking to teachers about academic research and evidence-based practice with continuing professional development at PNA 1977 on Twitter. Just talking to teachers. Hello and welcome to this week's nail is Ngata in association with the teacher development trusts and this week. I'm in conversation with Tom preece Tom is an executive head teacher and currently Works across 11 parameters. Rules as the education director of Northampton parameter Academy trust and Tom like many of our guests myself included is a former AST and the really must have been something in that job. The number of a STS that I've interviewed is definitely proof that that job should come back. But anyway moving on from that so Thomas spent his career leading in schools and in different context counties and countries and he spent Is as a head teacher Tom has also experienced life outside of teaching and worked in Industry on 18 months of comment in the Ed tech industry working alongside schools academies local authorities and multinational companies. So we have a natter about Tom's excellent book wholesome leadership. And for those of you that haven't read wholesome leadership, well firstly why not but it is a very honest and Powerful insight into school leadership and through Tom's is H for ship model wholesome leadership lays out how the heart Head Hands and health of school leaders masks together to create the right conditions for schools and teachers to thrive and it's supplemented with a number of fascinating guest interviews and speaking of which we now have David Western and Simon Blackwell for the teacher development trusts section ready to speak to us direct and live from Sunny Blackpool and so over to you. David and Simon. Thanks very much Phil. This is David Weston from the teacher development trusts Simon Blackwell from Aspire Academy and Blackpool great silent and I have just been working together today Simon. You've been doing some really interesting things at your school around changing culture. Could you just tell me a few bits and pieces around that? Yes. Well, we've we've spent a lot of time working with our teachers and developing a new language for learning within the school that has helped us to change the culture Within. The school in relation to CPD. We're focusing very much on disciplined inquiry now building that into our appraisal system. So that staff are buying into the idea of using research and evidence in their teaching and helping to develop new techniques or introduced techniques with their classes, but seeing evidence within our context of our students, so that's very interesting you talked about changing appraisal. So that staff seat is quite Developmental and obviously today we've been doing some work on CPT leadership as a group. So obviously that's part Of this wider research base around professional development that people want to engage in a culture where they see themselves being developed what else from today's work on that research has stood out for you. I think what's been really important is some of the the ten principles behind CPD in the development of CPD, but also linking in and making sure that we create a buy-in by linking everything to the academy Improvement plan and what the key priorities are so stuff really can see how there our work influences the outcomes on students and that's been interesting hasn't it a discussing that from a research point of view. So, I mean that that particular piece I think was talking about some of the motivational work will be looked at say craft and peppe's work. But also some of the psychology that we all feel will make more effort if we can see how our work fits into the big picture. Absolutely and and then of course also not only the big picture but we want to see how our work is going to make a difference to the pupils that we teach as well. So it's interesting you pick. Pain on that buying whether any other sort of key messages from today that stood out for you. I think it's very important for us to look at how we as a leadership team lead CPD how we create the environment create the culture in the school. So that staff understand why we are making these changes or why we're working together as a team to help have that impact on the students. There's many different principles within that we as leaders. Can buy into we can pull the information together we can say to the staff and we can show them the research but we can also create a climate where they start to look at the research in more detail. They look at the different levels of research. They're not just pulling one piece of paper to say this is what the research says. They're looking at a range of different research papers that we can start to then generate some real professional discussions around teaching and learning and I know you and I were having a really interesting discussion about how we help staff to be more critical of the Search and we were reflecting won't be on some of the fads that have swept through education. Whether it's what were some of the ones we looked at thinking hats and brain gym. And even I mean might be controversial calling it a fad but you know things like growth mindset and how maybe we got a bit too excited even if you know, it's not necessarily been discredited. We'll listen. Thank you very much. It's been, you know great working with you today. And I think if we think of those key things you've mentioned helping staff understand the relevance of what they do both to the pupils that they teach but also to the big picture of how they fit into the school development plan, but also helping staff think more critically about research. So encouraging them to come and question things, but if they're going to come with a counter-argument make sure they're bringing good evidence as well. So thank you very much great to work with you today and Phil back to you in the studio. Thank you David and now moving into the podcast pedagogy section which very soon there will be a jingle for rather excitingly and the Recorded by the same person that did the Fantastic intro music is a little bit delayed on delivering this because get this listeners. He's currently performing in Nashville. So it's from Nashville concert to Jingles for nailers Ngata. So next week, we'll have a very catchy and nail as natter podcast pedagogy section jingle, but for this week, it's just the little bit of intro music which goes like this. Moving into the podcast pedagogy section and this week I'm going back to my roots and reading about a topic. I spent most of my career working in namely pastoral care and I've just started looking at Daniel so Bells leading on pastoral care how we start the book with Butch head building on my part as Daniel outlines how rare it is to find books that champion and celebrate the role of pastoral leadership and Daniel outlines our approach to pastoral education based on five rules. And those are Rule one do your best to prevent harm rule to don't make things worst rule 3 communicate effectively rule for be adaptable and reflective and rulefive manage your own mental health and this book is split into three parts chapters 1 to seek to Define pastoral leadership discussing the role of the Pastoral leader chapters, three four and five focus on three key parts of the provision of for pastoral care. These are managing. People running meetings and working with parents and chapter 6 is all about helping teachers develop their all inclusive classrooms and chapter 7 looks understanding children's behaviors and is also in-depth discussion and the link between pastoral care Pastor issues and curriculum issues and this week. I thought I'd finish this small section by sharing an extract from the book and it really struck a chord with me from my experience of Being ahead of you and a pastoral leader sort of for learning houses a bit wider and this really kind of summed up what my day could look like sometimes and I'm sure it will be the same but those listeners who are working with in pastoral care and it starts by it starts called the role of the Pastoral leader and it's a typical day in the life of a pastoral leader. So hopefully Daniel doesn't mind me sharing this small section from his book. So it's 7:45. I've a.m. And you're already swamped with catch-up paperwork from yesterday. I referral form a team around the child meeting minutes and there's 17 emails from staff and 9 from parents. You need to respond to and all this before you go down to Breakfast Club to see a student X is actually turned up as he had promised the coffee in your mug is now cold but you down it. Anyway, it's caffeinated drink number three of the day. I break time your line of students outside your door complaining crying. And of course, there are those that have been sent to you by the same old teachers whose automatic reaction is just to refer everything to you more coffee quickly downed use zip through the line and head off to teach a class which you just get to intern there's lunch time Patrol in the playground meeting a parent and tumors our staff to follow up with regard to student why who has been persistently terribly behaved you suspect that there's problems at home and you followed your protocols, but it's not a priority for anyone in cams and there's all this on what you can do on a safeguarding hunch, but he's the focus of your attention as he's removed from the afternoon teacher's classroom and landed at your door, you know, he could well have overdone it this time punching a student in the face throwing a chair in the classroom and storm it out. You think to yourself surprise surprise. It happened to teacher X is class raising your elbows to yourself. You bring him to your room for a chat and you sit coffin with seven of the day, although you haven't been counted the serene. Once it calms you ignore the emails pinging phone ringing a door knocking and you are focused on student wife whom you quite like a Wonder to yourself. Why on Earth? He just can't keep his head down and get on and why teacher X is always provoking this child after 40 minutes of calm and quite enjoyable chat with a student you think to yourself I enjoy chatting with students in need and helping them out against your better judgment about whether this system is really going to be any good whatsoever. They student you place him in exclusion room and get back to 11 phone call. Al's one after another after another 12 emails and then you hear the school bell. It's the end of the school day for students, but your life is just getting busier you going to three back-to-back meetings in between you take the students to the Head teacher who warns the student is really is the end of the road. And the last time we will tolerate this or any of those other phrases you've heard so many times you call a single mother who you think is a nasty person and no doubt as all sorts of anger and mental health issues. She comes charging into the school and launch To a tirade of abuse at you you go to that special place in your head and engage full thick hide mode as you verbally batters you but to no avail you strike when the time is right closing down our anger and complains and complaints and enforcing the school policy. You can't explain the meeting is over and she needs to leave before things escalate and you have a risk cause it off the premises. It's now 6:15 p.m. You pop into the heads office to catch up on the case and return to your desk for coffee number 8 you get home at 8:00 p.m. IM and unload your car full of books that need marking you collapse into bed at 11:30 p.m. You're an average pastoral leader who is doing one of the most important jobs for children in the school system. You have no real sense of just how many students in both your school and across the country. So you and your colleagues as in loco parentis their Foundation Rock the consistent person in their life the one who will listen to them the one who saves them in their Darkest Hours, you know you doing something amazing, but it's all the admin you can't stand the endless boring predictable. Tubal and frustrated meetings the paperwork and emails and forms and referrals and systems that just seem to get in the way, you know the bits you like helping the students even helping the teachers in person is good. Well, it's not an arm's length value an impersonal email, you know, there's no hope for student why he's gone. He's not the first student you really liked and desperately tried to help but it didn't work out then either, you know, there is something wrong about teacher X and yet he doesn't get called to account. You know, that student wise play suffering at home with Mom. Whatever personality disorder she has there is nothing you can do about him. Now tomorrow is another day. I've been a pastoral leader. So this book Promises to be a fascinating read and I'll keep you updated on future episodes of podcast pedagogy. But if you are interested in looking at that book a little bit further, it's Daniel. So Bell leading on pastoral care and it's published by Bloomsbury. This sweet listeners. I am delighted to say that we have a teacher who is willing to talk about their podcast pedagogy. So I've been putting out please for the last goodness knows how many weeks on Twitter for people to be sharing their experiences and how they have used guests into is on the podcast in their own practice. So as I said, I'm delighted that we have Nicky Smith from South Jacques adamant in Blackpool who is sharing her thoughts on her favorite podcast so over to you Nikki. Hi Phil. My name is Nikki Smith. I'm second in English at South Shore Academy. I always enjoy listening to nailers Ngata first thing in the morning when I'm doing my paperwork and my planning and I've enjoyed all the podcasts but one that struck me recently was the one that dr. Joel Berry did on leadership because it really calls me to evaluate my own career path. My career has been less. Spinning linear. I've been up and down the ladder according to my choices, but I think a lot of what Jill said about leading because it's the right thing for you personally to do and because you believe that you're the right person to lead that area was really important message for me. And as a result, I've started to think about my own position within school and where I want to go next. So for me that's been a really interesting nail as an outer and one that certainly given me food for thought. Thought thanks fell. Hello Talent, welcome to the podcast. - oh, how are you? Yes good. Thank you and 1/2 turn this week and a half term seems to be a Movable three-week Feast these days but tough time for me. How's things with you? Yeah. Well, thank you darling Sunny northamptonshire half term here as well for me and the kids excellent. Thanks for health. Lucky you lucky you or you could say it lucky me because I get the free time right? There you go. Let's not get into that debate at the startup podcast. Okay, let's do what I've been calling for a while the X Factor question. So it's the journey to this point question. So you just tell us a little bit about your career to date and you know what you're up to at the moment great. So I'm from Reese and I was a primary school teacher from the years. I thought inner beads and the Huntington Learning abroad in Dubai and then became a deputy head in the primary head and I was apparently had teacher for ten. A general function share a couple of schools. And so that's five years. We were part of her multi-academy trust so we'll count'em pom pom economy dress and I spent the last three years they're being education director as well as head up to serve in the Senate primary school, which was a great experience and lovely to work with schools across the tracks and wider around the thanks and surrounding areas and then from the beginning of this year. I've been working for ambition Institute. As we get going to the school leadership and so working all across the country with different schools and trusts on leadership programs for Middle leaders to to head teachers that mountain system leaders, and I'm almost there somewhere in the last year or two. I write a book called wholesome leadership, which is kind of my take on. I'm running a school. Really? Yes. That's me. It's lovely to be able to talk to you brilliant and that's never going to be the focus of Podcast we're going to talk mainly about wholesome leadership, but we're also going to draw on as I can't help but talk about Blackpool at all times. So I'm going to talk about some of the great work that ambition are doing in Blackpool and linking into the stuff that we're doing with the research school, but we'll start with wholesome leadership. So this has been a game changer I said to you when I sent you a message begging you to be involved and I've got a very well thumbed copy of wholesome leadership which has been sitting on my office desk for quite some time now and it's got lots of I can't give this one away. Sometimes we do give the books away, but this is got too many notes. And too many Post-it notes and too many other things I it so I it's party personally to give away but it's been a real game-changer in terms of my practice. But in the intro you talked about whether the world needs another education books. So what were the four reasons that you decided? This book was worth writing? Yeah, thanks. That's let me tear that it's useful as well because originally I didn't know if I should write a book or didn't know if there's another book needs to be written and to start with I kind of said no, I wouldn't do it because I'm not sure that had anything else to add to the debate and I definitely didn't have time. But in the end there were four reasons. The first one was I wanted to do something to try and encourage more people to to get into leadership. So we've got sure. To give people applying for roles at the moment and it's changed a lot in the time that I was ahead for the first headship interview. I went to there was a field of 16 applicants that are eight of his on interview day. And then by the time I park my second headship, there were just three applicants into to interview and in recent years, we found it really difficult to get people to want to step up and take on those roles. So I think that I think it's a really important role and I think anything can you try to encourage people to to step up and and take on some of the responsibilities of leadership is a positive thing and the second thing was about really well sort of massive and very and Broad the work of school leaders is sweet complex and I found that I was learning lots of things by trial and error in my own leadership Journey whether that was as a middle leader or Deputy or head and then an exact head To try and get down as much as I could but I'd learned over the years in hope that would be helpful and people might might might use it which kind of leads them to the third reason which was about trying to do something that was really practical. So not lots of what's written which is great stuff often. I found stimulating in educational but have haven't been able to translate that into actionable things that I I can that can take away and do and so in the book wherever possible I tried to with the help of Oliver can video lean right and write things in a way of presenting it in a way that people could then take away and use practically now I'm a fourth reason was I thought it was about time that we had another primary voice in the mix. So I realized that lots of really good people who were writing and talking about School leadership where predominantly from the secondary sector and so I became quite motivated to try and guess primary voice among the mix. So yeah, they were my four reasons for writing the book. That's a brilliant. I couldn't agree more on the primary voices in that something that I've tried to do on the podcast in terms of the sort of the demographic of people that were talking to and of course, you know, no book is complete without quality artwork and Oliver is just amazing. And again, I always said it's at this point, but but I have to thank him for he did the artwork just you know off the off his own volition. He did the artwork for the podcast that we're putting out here at the moment. So he's a great guy if anyone hasn't had a chance to meet him or see him speak. He's absolutely brilliant. Yeah, I couldn't agree more just like a quick word on Oliver because I didn't know that he was going to be doing the illustrations in the book. And in fact, it says illustrated by limit but in the end he was so much more than an illustrator. He really invested his time and his his jaw and his attention in the book. We found that we had quite a lot in common. So he's a former head teacher as well and we both have sons with Down Syndrome. So we found out we had these kind of connections and weather's wonderful Skype conversations. We were supposed to just be talking about I don't know a particular diagram or illustration for certain chapter and would be there for an hour. He'd be showing me magazines that have inspired him but a way that they're using visuals and let his energy is extraordinary. I was really fortunate to work with him. No, it couldn't be more couldn't agree more. Okay, so moving into the book for those people who are new to the book guitars a little bit about your H for leadership. Idol yeah, so so School each it's really complex. There's a whole host of things that you that you have to do. And as I was writing it I came with this kind of nuisance 12 things. I wanted to write and what the H4 model really does. It chunks. It looks after the cognitive load and organizes that stuff into four areas. So talks about the heart the head hands and the health and Kind of cool that the a for Leadership Model showing the heart was about working out what you stood for kind of developing your own self as a leader believing what you do and who you are and then creating the right conditions for people to do their best work in the school and the second part was about the head and this was really looking a lot of research in particular in recent years. We've we learned from some research about school Improvement strategy and also trying to look at how we balance accountability in schools and how we get a healthy accountability and sensible sounds use of school Improvement processes and third part was about hands is about taking action the Invisible Hand on in the school walking the talk and also shoehorned into their piece around developing staff managing managing staff. Well, The last part was about health tourism Bureau health or well-being is stuff around you also this notion out there a healthy school relation it with other schools. So developing independent relationships within and outside the school community. Great great. So is removing 2 section 2 and the first of those edges that you outline there. So there's a kind of a two-part question here. So how self-aware do you think that we are as leaders and do we all have a particular style of leadership? Yeah, two really good questions. So how self-aware are we? Well, I think it's really important that need is a helper where and that they develop self-awareness. I think that comes more easily to some people than others, but is really important nothing most of the best either so just means I've ever worked with our self-awareness strength, they know their weaknesses and they know when to went to duress and went to More things and I have to say self-regulate themselves. So they're able to manage themselves really well in different situations. So yeah, and the self-awareness is really important for any leader to know how to manage situations and how to manage different people and we also have two about Styles and I think that I mean think one thing is that Styles is we're all we all have different styles because we're all different humans. So we all bring our own personalities and our own characteristics to the work that we do one of the things that I kind of wrote In the book and I've been writing about a little bit recently since has their kind of hero Paradigm that I think has become the Orthodoxy in some of the narratives around school. Should be hiding that you don't have to be a superhuman to be a school leader. You have to cut it operate in a particular style. And I think that that can get out of balance and think it's really important that people who are School leaders do so because they're because of their capability and because of their the way they're able to work with people to solve problems. And to get good work done in a school and that will mean that people with all kinds of different styles in characteristics and personalities should be able to do those roles. So so I think you know, there's a lot of talk about leadership styles and but I think the most important style is actually the style of who you are and being able to bring your own self to the work that you do. And people shouldn't feel that they can't be a school leader because they're not an extrovert or because they're not charismatic or because they don't have the loudest Voice or because their public speaking isn't isn't their Forte now, doesn't it? I think I got this right. So I heard Claire storm and talking about it. And I think you were in the audience is at research at National. So she was talking about something about how you've influenced her with that thinking as well. Yeah, well it kind of them a lot really good things about it as well. One of the kind of catalyst for this was looking at the the Tes jobs amulets and we kind of looked on the TS job adverts and you look down and what you find is leaders described by adjectives. So the the just kind of owed on the leadership adverts and you see people talking about the need for dynamic leaders or charismatic leaders and inspiring leaders all these kind of different adjectives. It's of absence of capability and knowledge. You know, what about people who get get good things done and for all bring the knowledge and capability to the party. So yeah, I think that that whole narrative around me. She has got a bit out of balance. I think, you know, the kind of objective leadership bandwagon is is one that exists and it's great. Think a bit more carefully about what it actually things are that you want to school leaders to know and be able to do in order to run a school really well. No, that's that's a really good point and I really enjoyed listening to Claire talk about that as well in terms of you know, you think about those objectives. What would the opposite of that be and then you think well, nobody's going to admit to that other. You know, I think it well. I would like to employ a lazy, you know on the motivated leader. I mean, you're absolutely right. It needs to be more about the capability of the person and the skills. They're going to bring Yeah, I think it's a focus on the ability to what people are able to do. I was hoping there's something about when you look at the those kind of job adverts. He think who could seriously apply and claim to be all those things actually feeling a job description say yes, that's me. I'm I'm inspiring and dynamic and motivational and charismatic. Yeah, I'm all those things there just aren't like humans around that that necessarily to go like boxing and the colored super Not even think it's well as one of the things that's at play when I don't know we're going to look at is bit later on. We think about the well-being of school leaders, which is that that is intense pressure to be you know, the all-knowing all-powerful person who's kind of strong in all circumstances and is everything to every person and you know School leaders like everyone are Humans, and they've got their strength. They've got the weaknesses. They've got or all the kind of variety of things that humans have and I think everyone benefits from promotes remembering that part-time definitely and we will get into that later on as you said. So if move into chapter 4 You outlined yeah 10 building blocks for great staff culture. So I'm not actually to share all 10 of those but if you could kind of pick a couple of those and talk about girls with listeners about how you would build Ethos and professional culture. Yeah, and I think the yeah one of the kind of key bits around the culture section, which is right for me to try think about what what actionable tangible thing tangible things could help to develop culture. So I think culture is one of those words that can mean lots of things to different people sometimes when people talk about culture they're talking about behavior and they're talking about the the way that they feel about a place or they're talking about relationships or are talking about all these things. It's it can be quite an abstract term. So in the book I try to kind of break down into some actionable things that you could do to kind of create a culture of our staff that really supported and where they could kind of keep getting better professionally. So, yeah, let's pick two or three of those. So first one I've got is to over communicate. So I think that teachers people who work in our schools are so busy and one of the things that's really easy to do with the leader is assumed that everybody has read the email that you sent or was in every briefing that you gave always able to retain all that information. If we can't about what we have been talking a lot about cognitive science and the forgetting curve and so on so much of what we we what we give out in messages. He's just kind of cognitive overload for teachers as I think building an environment where you kind of over communicate the same message as you keep it as simple as you can and and you just make sure that everyone hears the main things is is is a good thing for building culture. I think developing discipline brought an action amongst staff. So by discipline, I don't mean just in terms of people Behavior. I mean discipline terms of a culture where staff led by the leaders doing the things they say they well they do them to a really good standard people expect them to do to a really good standard and what that means is if you get a culture of discipline in the school, you need to do less monitoring and checking because you have higher levels of confidence that people will are all doing the things that they that they need to do. So only profession a little discipline culture I think is really important and then I think teacher agency let's go for that one was the third one our culture where teachers feel like they are professionals that they feel they are able to make professional decisions and use their knowledge and expertise to Apply that to the situations are in without constantly looking over their shoulder as to whether or not they've done the right thing. I think to many teachers I talk to Sheila worried about doing the right thing about doing something that they think other someone else should should think they should be doing and I think you can get an environment where teachers I've got like high levels of professional competency and then high levels of agency alongside that then that a lot of I'm building block in a strong professional culture great great. So in moving into the second day, so we're going to look at the head now. So you use and I'm sure that lessons with familiar with this you use sir. David Carter's for stage model improving a school. So could you just briefly outline what that model entails and how have you seen that being used? Yeah, great. So I was really lucky see David David prevent this the festival education and I think 2017 I want to say and first time I've seen enough it was really a helpful model. So the four stages in dailies model are stabilized repair improve and sustain and he offers this as an alternative to using the language of ofsted to Scribe stages of school Improvement and I think my experiences of being in the school system is overwhelmingly people talk about their schools as being an RI school or a good school or an outstanding School whatever and they talked about that not just because that's the way we've been given way off there. But because that's the kind of how they're grading in terms of its Journey at the moment. I think the problem with using accountability labels for that purpose is that it focuses more on the Evil, so the kind of the level of judgment and therefore the focus about what things you need to take to get into the next level and and not necessarily the type of work that needs to happen at the different stages and something which really helpful proposition. That's the kind of four stages of improving school. So for example with the stabilized so the job is really about fixing things that are broken focusing on the Urgent priorities. And often in cover it and covering the reality of what's going on in a school and for anyone who's taken on a school in special measures or taking on the school and you know real leaves a lot of attention that would be familiar with those types of of work. That's kind of like and I in those situations different approaches from leaders are required. You need to be more visible. You need to be decisive which can make decisions really quickly is offer. Calm and reassuring presence of often and and it's kind of moved to a different phase. You make the move to the repair things which is still quite reacting but starting to get to that point where people look around say almost feels like a normal student it and and that can be quite challenging phase because to be a really rewarding face and the third phase then is about improve where you kind of get into. Treatment Cycles you start to get into good CPD Cycles where people are getting better consistency and overtime and you're becoming a become more strategic in your leadership. You had to plan more and more medium term rather than fighting fires day-to-day and I like the fourth stage because rather than outstanding she's kind of a value judgment. It talks about sustained. So the job of when you've got a school that's in a really good place how Will you keep that that level of high performance over time and of course that high level of performance over time should involve how you give capacity to the system as well how you support other schools or other teachers how you're able to contribute to towards the system. So yeah, it was really good good model one because it's sort of shifted as away from using the standard terminology as a school Improvement model. Skinny because it allowed us to think more about the work that needs to take place and the approaches that leaders dates need to take place within those developmental stages. I mean, you mentioned it in terms of the stabilizing the leadership styles as required. But what I liked about it is into the sustain is not well, we've achieved a particular label. So therefore we can just kind of coast and continue that there's some definite, you know sustainability in terms of the leadership. And what kind of styles need to be deployed at that stage is uh, yeah, I agree and I think again it's not too much about style. It's more about the type of work that needs doing people need different, you know, there's different motivations at place play in those different stages. And as I stated example, I would give with sustained you'd like so I played Cricket for four years when I was younger. I was a kind of batsmen would always get to Change be really careful and then all of a sudden I get to 30 or 40 and think I was doing well and I tried to do something different but playset a really big shot hit six or something like that and then they get out and people are just so why don't you just do what you did to get to 13 carry on doing that? Why did you go and do something different? I think one of the things around the like the sort of junk from good to outstanding often The Narrative I've heard about that is you need to go do something. Different need to go and innovate you need to go and like loosen up or you know, whatever be more creative and in many cases. I don't think that's true. I think you just need to keep running a really good school. And and again that requires like staying power and like real commitment to stay in one place and keep working through the phases year after year. I've got huge respect for people who are able To do that. It takes a lot of dedication really hard work. Absolutely. Absolutely. So moving on again. We talked about culture there. So how do you establish a culture of I'm going to say a culture of accountability. This is not a phrase that you particularly use, but I can't think of a better phrase in that. So how did you go about ensuring that accountability happens, but it doesn't rely purely on the fear of ofsted. Yeah, so guys. I'm already kind of said I think trying to avoid the use of the ofsted language in your school Improvement languages is helpful because they're two separate things. They offset claim work is an accountability framework and of course were accountable and we should make sure we comply with out but I think it's less helpful as a tool for school Improvement. I think that's what it's designed for. And I think this whole thing around moderating the the amount of pressure that teachers feel from ofsted or any accountability system. And that's a local Authority or or Matt or you know, whatever people might use. I think moderating that that pressure is really important. One of the most important things that school leaders have to do and everyone there are times when teachers like all humans need to be reminded of personal responsibilities and pointed out that these responsibilities matter and more accountable to different bodies, but it's also too easy for leaders and I've certainly done this before and I hopefully I became better at catching myself and stopping myself from doing it as I got more experience is to use the line. What ofsted are looking for or you know, I've been on this destroying an offset the want us to do these things. I think it's Not convincing thing for leaders to say teachers really see through it and it's unlikely to lead to teach his shifting their knowledge and behaviors in the long term and it's more likely just to get people to do things on a short-term basis because I think they're doing it for four external accountability. So I think one of them even do is get much better at using educational reasons, For the different initiatives or improvement work or whatever it might be that we're looking to do and this is something that's really interesting. I was fortunate to meet with Vivian Robinson recently. It was over from New Zealand and there's a interested in her work in particular. She talks about at leaders using educational knowledge to solve complex problems which builds trust in the school community and and she talked. About us being leaders consistently to justify the decisions that they're my team all the improvement work that they're advocating for by giving good educational reasons and it really made me think that said we're not sending my early years of hardship when we still doing loads of things that I don't think we should have been doing for often to our stead such as kind of graded lesson observations. And loads and loads of kind of judging teachers by Cupid progress on Tenley basis or all those kind of things. I look back and think we didn't really have good educational reasons for doing that. They won't put under scrutiny and we weren't we weren't able to to argue either for or against actually why we were doing anything other than it was part of the accountability system and it was perceived to be true that Those things happen, so kind of Eternity to question around and healthy accountability yet. We've got important professional responsibilities. We should be held to a higher count in the profession many were teachers or School leaders for good ethical and professional behaviors and high standards of teaching and Leadership, but trying to moderate the pressure. Of the external accountability processes. I think it's super important and being able to justify the things that we ask people to do because there are good education reasons is a much better alternative. Absolutely, absolutely. So moving into the hands now, so obviously a recurring theme on the podcast is about professional development and we're very fortunate at the now the podcast is an association with a teacher development trusts as well. So what responsibility de leaders have for sustained professional development and I guess a follow-up question there is how do we strike the balance between the priorities of the school on the one hand and the development of the individual on the other? Yes, look for starting the second question. I think that being I think the the school's priority improving parties should be teacher development. I think if the school's priorities aren't teacher development, then there's probably question what that is more than ever. I think that the role of school leaders primarily is to help teachers get better and then to provide them with the conditions they Condition so that they can do their best work. I think in it in essence we can try to simplify School leadership down to perhaps thinking about things like that and but yeah teacher development is huge. It's certainly something that I don't think I knew enough about when I was when I was a middle leader in there a deputy head teacher. I think we talked about improving teaching rather than teachers and when you were thinking about improving teaching King often were thinking about generic things that we wanted to introduce to a school that we would get everyone to do consistently with a belief that that would improve teaching incrementally over also that might have meant that we would ask everyone to use a starter at the beginning of a lesson or that we would get everyone to do marking in a particular way and that kind of the teaching and leave the teaching in Learning lead role I think was characterized by some of those more generic approaches to thinking about teaching and I love the work that teacher development trusts and I've done on this and colleagues at ambition Institute and others actually around the system who I think are helping us to get much better about thinking of teacher development the actual development process of teachers themselves. And how they move from novice to become more expert and how our approaches to supporting them and training and should evolve and differ depending on on their career stage and also think that the real excited by the the the early career framework that's going to Pilot this next year. I think really prioritizing the professional development of teachers early in their career is a fantastic. Way to spend time and limited time and limited resource when we're thinking about how we can make the biggest impact in the system. I mean just linking into the work that ambition I doing in Blackpool. So that's been so part and parcel of you know, I'm still responsible for our school CPD and part of the strands approach to you know, career development at particular stages as being the early careers framework, which then again ties into having the best teachers the best develop teachers in front of pupils in the classroom. So it does tie together as well. Yeah, and that makes it simple thing. So they actually the school princesses get the best teachers in front of children in classrooms. But but it's true. It's a really good. It's a good unifying focuser. I think and it's a great work going up there as well. So I think some of the methods around that so thinking about using models such as instructional coaching. We've seen that be you know, really transformational in the way that some of the leaders have been able to To work with the teachers and to help them develop keep getting better. I also think this role at the teacher educator in a in a school the idea that someone's really got responsibility for teachers professional development. I think again we can back at my own time in in education often too often. Really I think professional development was about, you know series of staff meetings without really thinking more carefully about what's the curriculum Um for school leaders, that's only for teachers what's their curriculum in and and how is that sequenced over time as a series of activity rather than a series of one-off different events. For example, I think next external expertise is really important as well because whilst it's important that you know schools use their own practitioners to deliver some of the CPD for the school because then it's contextualized and there's a credibility to you know teachers leaving their own. CPD that this really is important where you know, we can't all be experts in everything and external expertise. It's definitely vital and especially around things like the other careers framework. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think that I've learned so much from people and coming to my school over the years who just bring huge amounts of knowledge and expertise in areas that I didn't know enough about I think about some people that came in, you know particular areas like handwriting or phonics or particular subjects that we just didn't have high levels of expertise and I think that there are some people around the country and growing The number and from different organizations are doing great work to help build that and being able to spread that around system is is really helpful so dude, it's working out. So so wealthy up that yeah and Steve's been absolutely brilliant in terms of the instructional coaching and which I was talking about this before with just another podcast previously with talking about, you know, expansion of things like research goals, and actually it's really important to have that external expertise and does Partners you can work with because cuz you know with the best will in the world at the moment, there's not many people running research skills, you know, most of them are carrying two three four staff possibly some Ellie's evidence leads education as well. But if you put in something that is a specific as instructional coaching is really important that you have an expert leading that and Steve's been absolutely brilliant and and the feedback from the people that he's been working with has been brilliant. Yeah, I'm not surprised Steve gets rave reviews wherever he goes. He's a very talented Rachel is human. So great to hear that. You're doing some good work with you there. But yeah, I agree. I think your point about infrastructure is really important how we can build and share around expertise as we develop it in. The system is really really important whether that's through like that structures or local Authority structures or Open universities or and research schools and organizations such as ours. There's a whole group of players in the system. And I think the ECF is something that needs to happen at scale. So I entered in the UCF can be a really unifying piece of work for the system because it requires us to do things at such a scale and it really needs all the different organizations and players in the system to work together on this. National challenge of how we build out the right level of mentoring and teacher development for our early career teachers over the next few years and also for leaders time as well in terms of you know, we've learned so much from experts are coming in in terms of facilitation adult learning and how to go about doing it. It's a very different thing to teaching you and I on Tuesday afternoon, for example So we'll be learning so go on tell me tell me something you learn about teacher teacher development. So it's not often. I get asked a question on the podcast. So this is great. Well, we could share a story of how we started. So I've been a teacher for 20 years, but then in terms of teacher facilitation and leading stuff in there, I just assumed it would be a natural step from clattering practice into just leading it for teachers. And the first time we were asked to do a session so hammer cocks won't forgive me for this story, but we'll share it anyway, so I'll Steven Tierney who you know who's actually contributed to the book. I will get to that later and he asked us to do a section on his middle leaders course and it was one of those moments where we really needed the ground to swallow was up pretty quickly and we must have done about four minutes of talking at middle leaders, you know, we're not inexperienced each subject for a long time, but we just really struggle to fill the time to talk just to deliver. It was totally different thing and there's much more to it. You know, I'll stay tuned for him, but there's much more, you know facilitation rather than leading is not all did. Livery from you as the expert telling I'm not saying that teaching is but it's a very different model of that. So what I've learnt is the art of facilitation the amount of you know, giving cohorts tasks to do and discussion of the room making a two-way process and you actually do learn as much from participants as maybe they learned from you. So it's a very very different thing but in terms of you know Steve's deliver it I mean I might have to cut some of this out because I don't want to give him too much praise and that's right, you know, it's the clarity of it. And just how he's come back. So here's an example. Here's a non-example. Here's a workbook to reflect your own thoughts. Here's an opportunity to discuss it with somebody else. Here's to bring it back to the group. Right is everybody clear. I'll be understanding of that then and it's something I never thought I'd get involved in Tom the roleplay of things, you know, which do any mention of the word roleplay would have Maids are running for the exits, but I found myself thinking what if I can't do it here and now I'm going to find this difficult in a coaching situation, for example, so just Just some watch that. We learned in terms of facilitation. And I think if you are the CPD lead of school, you know, how much training do you get in terms of delivering this for staff? Yeah, I don't think you raise a really good point that which is that it is it's something really specialist and it's not something necessarily that teachers will automatically do well or not. There's lots of over that and so yeah, it's getting there we can all keep getting better that which is which is great and the way that Steve's doing it is that he's very much lead at the moment and we're kind of picking up bits and pieces from him and hopefully we can move to a bit more core facilitation as we move. So, you know just just to emphasize the importance of that external expertise is not you know, we can't all be experts in everything and it really is important to make sure that the best people are delivering this this training definitely. Okay, so once I'm moving to talk about so one model that particular enjoyed was the LeapFrog conversations model. So it has a little bit about the importance of that in people management. Yeah, so I think this book came about because one of the things I realize is I've helping loads of teachers and younger less experienced leaders and prep or sometimes recover from really difficult meetings that they've held with parents and I think that teachers and school leaders spender can spend and and shouldn't spend as much that can spend a significant amount of time being involved in Parental. Discussions and it's something that that there are like naturally you might be more experience at it or you by like I think when I became a parent, I became a bit more naturally empathetic a to some of these parents conversations, but I built this process up and they have kind of shared it with a few people and I wrote up in the book which is about LeapFrog conversations. And this is really for the difficult parent me. Eating, you know the ones where you know, it's going to be quite challenging and typically the might be unhappy and might be quite stressed or emotional and and I think they're one of those situations where you handle it. Well, then they can lead to a really good relationship. You can build trust and understanding you can strengthen the homeschool link. If you hang it badly, you can just escalate things really K that can lead to feelings of resentment and longer-term vexation and actually practically it can occupy a huge amount of your time. If you don't handle these things well and they get to kind of formal complaint stages. So the LeapFrog model has got three stages. Listen LeapFrog and learned. The lesson stage meili is just listen. So the whole thing is like trying not to talk to sue soon in the conversation make their environment welcoming invite the person in be really polite even if they're kind of agitating there might be presenting as as being rude is too. Yeah just be really polite invite them to talk. Tell them to you want to hear everything. I've always butting in and when they've kind of finished like invite them to say some more Justjust, I'm trying to remain open keep an open body language to to make sure that they know you are listening to their concern and you're taking it seriously and the second stage L. Is that LeapFrog? So we don't want to avoid having to have a difficult exchange but one of the things I think I definitely did. spend too much time doing when I was younger was getting involved in back and forth arguments with parents where you try and say your point again, then they'd say therefore the new tell your point and he kind of didn't really go anywhere and I think one of the things that you can do quickly in those situations you can you can see where this is going and you can LeapFrog to the like jump over that stage of getting involved in back and forth and kind of Leap Frog in Solutions have been solution-focused so it's beige you degree some next steps. Like don't be afraid to apologize. If you think that something's gone wrong. Even if you're apologizing someone feels that the way they do no one likes people being being upset you really care about what you're going to do. It might be that you're committing to do is to go away and look into it really where that you can't solve it within that that meeting and that you're going to agree times. Bound a to review you can tell them how you're going to get back to them and avoid having to kind of have the last word. I think it has stage three important as well not to over promise. So I know again I got myself in a people before where I might have said things like well, I'm going to get back to you by a result of this down. We'll get back to you by lunchtime and let me know the outcome of this and then something else happened and I just didn't get back from lunch time and then they felt more agreed. So trying to get over. This at that stage third stage is to learn. So trying to take some time to reflect on the conversation. Perhaps talking through it with somebody else. I'm trying to pick what was going on really what can be learned from it, whether any processes or practices that could be changed with it. Just a thing that happened. Do you need to clarify something school or with the parent and their most important if you don't take it personally? I think that they can be quite emotional conversations that you end up having trying to get a way of dealing with it so that it doesn't take too much out of you and your working day is really important too. So, yeah, that was the Frog conversation model and actually Olive has done a great vision of this. There's a there's a poster it on his website that you can download this and keep it in your drawer if it's helpful at all before you're going in. One of those prostates conversations no and second plug for Oliver in one podcast and but he's right his website is just amazing because all the stuff that he does and he just gives it away all free for everybody to look at and anybody can take anything from there. So yeah, I definitely advise that people who haven't doing. I think it's just Ali calves.com, isn't it? Yeah, that's the one yeah seems like stuff on there. So, okay. So we're going to move lastly into Health Tom. So we're going to look at how as a big a big it's a big question. So how can leaders create a healthy balance while still meeting credibility in the staff room? And how do we guard against becoming a martyr or even a guess at perceived superhero? Yeah. So I think it's really hard is what I should say. I never really cracked it personally if I'm Honest I had times where I got better at it. And then inevitably there would be times in a term. It might be where there was lots of scrap absence or their particular challenges that were going on where it was just really difficult to get the balance. Right? And I think that it's just really important for us will that everyone recognizes? We needed teachers and school leaders to stay in the profession and we even stay in for like a long longtime years decades, right? And so in order to do that, you need to get a good balance and a life where you enjoy your work and your able to keep fit and keep healthy and enjoy other things that life that you enjoy life. And so yeah. I mean I write in the book. I was quite honest in the book about sometimes when a fan of rediff school and sort of burnt out in my first headship. And then still committed to really try and get rid of some of those unhealthy practices like working too late in the evenings constantly working on Sundays and various other things like that. I don't think the end it comes back to some really simple things. Like are you getting enough sleep and are you eating? Well, I like finding time to exercise. We my own my own kind of ways of cooking. Managing a managing and so I wasn't most days so start the day by running with the dog and it's brilliant. Just get out get a few miles in whatever whether it's just a really good part of the day. Everyone has their own dork like can do their own different things live former CEO. Every Thursday night would go to band practice. So Julia all Always go to band practice on a Thursday night and she says it's the time of the week where when she's playing her horn in the band. She can think about nothing else because she's concentrating on the music. Yeah, I think so. It's it's hard. We've got so many expectations of ourselves. We want to do really well society's got lots of expectations of schools, like lots of herbs. We're on this podcast. We read Twitter. We like to engage in discussion. If you're not careful you can end up Spending too many hours and you even do that. It's about keeping things in Balance. I think no, I agree and then I suppose moving on from that. How do we move away from sort of superficial well-being gimmicks into clear systems and Pathways? Yeah. Well that certain something that Steven Wright in the book. Actually that's kind of stuck well-being and yeah this kind of media response wake up to do something about well-being and often that can be visible stuff like super vicious superficial stuff rather than the things that really matter. So it's about me too superficial transactional or deeper level approaches to tackling will be so superficial might be some things like puts her hand cream in the toilet. So we put some new furniture in the staff room or passes for the gym and those kind of things though. Like they're nice things and not to be dismissed. Like it's nice to do kind things for people. In terms of addressing systemic issues that are going to make things like retention be stronger. They're unlikely to be successful. We have to really tackle some of those dawnia issues. So kind of next time we're looking at transactional level like things like pay and workflow and or reducing contact time or cutting workload with marking. There are there are real things that you can do that give people time back in their life. Or give them more reward and and those are also important we know they make a difference. But and this is where I think Becky Alan Sam soon's book is fantastic read into what what motivates features and what their kind of the real things that sit at the heart of retention are and writing teacher. after such a fascinating really, well, you get an insight to what teachers actually thinking and saying I think that getting Beyond workload and pay and creating conditions where staff she'll supported where they have good relationships with the people that they work with that there's a perception of fairness in the workplace and you know that there's a strong correlation between people who are good at their job and enjoying being good at their job and their feelings of success and well-being are likely to want to stay in the organization such as making sure that we that we invest in really good teacher training and development that we've been talking about already what just because it makes people better because but because by getting better, they're more likely to feel good about their there. Professional life and that they're more likely to stay working for that school. So yeah, it's a really really important issue and it's definitely not something that could be seen as an add-on like a let me just do something else for well-being. I think what we do best for for wellbeing for staff is we do the culture the climate the teacher professional development. Really really? Well, absolutely. Absolutely, right? So it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you this evening and thank you so much for giving up your time just to finish off. Can we just ask a little bit about where can we see you next and what kind of things are you working on at the moment? Ask a question when you see me next I don't know some distance to really busy terms of doing Saturday Compass has been at lots of research Ed conferences and some events in and around northamptonshire. But I am writing some things in the moment that on the ambition Institute blog so you can always have a look on there. Oh, we're writing a chapter in the researcher guide to The ship as well, that's with my colleague Jen Barker. We're hoping that we have around Christmas so good. I'm always on Twitter Tom Reiss in the school 77. Not sure if I had an invite to Blackpool next year actually 477 Cox needs to be removed from his post clearly. So this is Claire must be an oversight this sure let's go. Enough to come along. We absolutely I was under the impression that you were hence. The reason that I was asking it to come on the podcast answer. So yeah, that was my inbox will correctly. But yeah. Popping up around the education to it's fantastic to to get around and see some of the great work that's going on. It really is. So in terms of websites of it listeners head over to your own personal one or just Ambitions website. Yeah. I've got blogs still which I'm most were writing in the moment is going on on the ambition blog which which you can soon find online or those my blog which I think I wrote a post early this Year, but it's got lots of the things that I work arounds wholesome leadership, and it's also got various blogs that I wrote when I was a head teacher in Northampton. That's some Reese dot org dot U k-- blind blind. Well, thanks again, Tom, and we will look forward to seeing you definitely confirmed now. It's on the podcast. So it must be great in Blackpool in March, so that would brilliant. Thanks again. Love it. Great to speak to you feel thanks for inviting me. Get moving into the Shameless plug section and just a Shameless plug for South Shore Academy's teachmeet, which will be on Thursday January the 16th 4 p.m. Till 6 p.m. Where you can see a wide range of speakers from inside and outside Blackpool showcasing best practice so I can get you tickets for that. I'll just search for it on Eventbrite. So it's South Shore Academy teachmeet, and I'm also going to be speaking at Brew Ed Ozzy on the first of February. Very 2020 going to be looking at curriculum particularly curriculum in areas of high disadvantage. So if you want to come along to that again tickets for that, I'll be on the Eventbrite site. I'm also going to do another plug for the teacher five a day that we spoke about on the podcast last week and we have guests coming up to talk to you about teacher five a day in the run-up to teacher 5 had a week, but I'm also going to be involved in teacher five a day park room, which I think is on the It's of December. So I'd love listeners to join in with that as well. So again have a look at the teacher 5 add a website or the hashtag teacher five a day on Twitter. We're incredibly excited about future guest. So as we approach the one-year anniversary of nailers natter that started with me recording a conversation with my colleague. Mr. Sammon Cox on my phone in our office to what has become, you know listened by Thousands of people all over the world according to the Anchor FM stats so really really grateful for that because we do approach that one year anniversary. I have some exciting news on future guests. So future guests. I have called the next few weeks. I have Greg Ashman some twistleton and marry my it and many many more. So it just remains to say as always thank you very much for listening to nailers matter if you're interested in any more about what we've talked about today with Tom that all the links will be on the show notes, and if you're interested in being involved in the podcast pedagogy section, then check it out on my website or send a clip in to my email, which is P3 name 91 at gmail.com and next week. We have Lisa father's so that will be a fantastic interview there. Thanks again for listening. See you next week on nailers. Just talking to teachers talking dirty. Teachers about academic research and evidence-based practice with continuing professional development at PNA 1977 on Twitter. Just talking to teachers.
Tom is the Executive Headteacher of Simon de Senlis Primary School and currently work across eleven primary schools as the Education Director of Northampton Primary Academy Trust. Tom is a former Advanced Skills Teacher who has spent the last 17 years leading in schools across different contexts, counties and countries. He has spent the last 10 years as a Headteacher in Northamptonshire. In between Headships, Tom experienced life in industry via an 18 month secondment in the EdTech industry working alongside schools, academies, local authorities and multi-national companies. Tom is  married  with three beautiful children, he  occasionally plays in a Beatles Tribute Band and is the Chairman of Ups ‘n’ Downs – a  charity supporting families affected by Down’s syndrome. I nattered to Tom about: Usual journey to point question- selected highlights from your career to date . As much or as little as you like . Wholesome leadership has been a game changing leadership text . You discuss in the intro whether the world needed another education book , what were the 4 reasons you decided the book was worth writing ? For those new to the book tell us about your H4 leadership model . Moving into section 2 and the first of the Hs , how self aware are we as leaders? Do we all have a particular style of leadership and what are the advantages of this and the potential pitfalls ? In chapter 4 you outline 10 building blocks for great staff culture , could you share some of those with listeners and how do leaders build ethos and professional culture ? Into the second H , you use sir David Carters 4 stage model of improving a school. Have you seen this model being used and how do leadership styles fit into it ? How do you establish a culture of accountability that doesn’t rely purely on the fear of OFSTED ? Into the hands now , what responsibility do leaders have for sustained professional development , how do we strike the balance between the priorities of the school and the development of individual teachers ? Use of external expertise also vital for example , the ambition ECF work , a vital strand to our CPD which also ties into school priorities whilst meeting the needs of the individuals. Could you tell us about the leapfrog conversations model and it’s importance in people management? Lastly into health , how can leaders create a healthy balance whilst still maintaining credibility in the staffroom ? How do we guard against becoming a martyr ? Is it like the aeroplane safety demonstration where you put on your mask first before helping your child ? How do we move from superficial wellbeing gimmicks into clear systems and pathways ? Where can we see you next ? How can we find out more ? In podcast pedagogy  I am looking at Daniel Sobel's Leading on Pastoral Care and listener Nikki Smith is talking about the influence of Jill Berry's work on her practice. Shameless plugs  South Shore Academy Teach Meet  https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/ssa-teachmeet-tickets-79868126717?aff=ebdssbdestsearch Brew Ed Ossy https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/brewedossy-tickets-78805006897?aff=ebdssbdestsearch Don't forget #teacher5aday . 