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RG-50.030.0001 | 0 | I need you to start off by telling me your name, place of birth, and date of birth? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 1 | My name David Kochalski. I was born in a small town called , and I was born May 5, 1928. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 2 | Tell me a little bit about your family life before the war? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 3 | Well, we were very hard working, six children, father and mother and we had a small mill, flour, buckwheat. We were not prosperous but comfortable. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 4 | Did you go to a public school, a private school? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 5 | I went to two schools. One was a public school in the morning. In the afternoon I went to a religious school until almost late at night. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 6 | So your family was fairly religious? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 7 | Yes. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 8 | And Judaism was important to you? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 9 | Well, I raised in the spirit of Judaism. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 10 | Now, when you went to the public school you had a lot of friends who were not Jewish? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 11 | No, the school itself, in this little city, was segregated between Catholics and Jews. Mind you, it was a small town, and I would say the majority of the people in that small town were Jewish people. Inside the town, somehow, I don't know why, but they separated us Jewish children and Catholic children. As you know, most of the people in Poland were Catholic. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 12 | Did you have friends who were Catholics? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 13 | Yes, I used to have friends. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 14 | Did you feel any anti-semitism growing up? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 15 | Yes, I did. I felt it, maybe not personally, but I knew of a lot of incidents whereby either they were small little -- I would call 1t -- we were separated, in other words, but hardly got together, and there were incidents. Incidents, not pleasant incidents, because we were called in from the house, people regardless of how religious we were, did not believe that we were really religious people. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 16 | Were there any incidents with your brothers or sisters that you remember? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 17 | No, other than we were a lovely family. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 18 | Were there a lot of cultural or social organizations, political organizations in the town? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 19 | Yes there were Zionists in the city. There were Socialists, there were Communists, even though at that time Communists had to go underground, and religious institutions. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 20 | Were your parents active in the Zionist movement? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 21 | My parents were, I would say, Zionists, and very religious. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 22 | What did you know about Hitler and the rise of Nazism before the war? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 23 | I was aware what was going on even though I was a very young youngster. My father used to subscribe to many newspapers, Jewish in origin and non-Jewish papers, papers that had nothing to do with us. However, my father and my brother and all the rest of them we used to discuss those things. They used to discuss and I used to listen, and I knew what was going on. In fact, I remember when they were chasing out Jews from Germany, who were of Polish origin, my father took in some of them, a couple of them, to stay with them because they came out of there with nothing. They really went from city to city amongst Jews. There were so many of them that people had to help. So, I was aware, until the war, very much aware, what was going on. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 24 | They told stories of what was going on in Germany’? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 25 | Definitely, yes. In a public school, since it was more or less a Jewish school, in other words, we did not speak Jewish there, it was Polish, history, everything was Polish, and the guy who was --what do you call it? He was not Polish, the guy who was running the school, he was not Jewish, he was Polish. In other words, he was a Catholic, so we were aware amongst us kids, because sometimes we were not greeted in the city very well. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 26 | Did you have any idea what was happening in Germany might come to your town? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 27 | Yes, because people were aware that eventually Hitler will overrun Poland. It was known between people that he's not going to stop at that time in Czechoslovakia. He had great -- in other words, he had great expansion ideas, and he asked the Polish government to give him almost everything they needed, or wanted. So, we knew it was going to be sooner or later. A few days before the war they already had black outs in Poland, because at that time, I would say the Russians and the Poles signed an agreement. It was about a week before the war, and everyone was aware that there will be a war. We did not know the particulars of what they signed. The Germans, the USSR, we anticipated there would be a war. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 28 | Was there anything that the community did in preparation for this? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 29 | I don't think so. The Jewish people naturally were very anxious. They already knew what happened to the people. They were thrown out. They already heard of the burnings of the synagogues and everything, but they really thought it will pass if the Germans come in. It will pass, and Jewish people really believed that Germany was going to be defeated. We were aware and the preparation was made in a way. People used to hoard food and everything, because they knew he was going to come. They had certain memories, Jewish people had certain memories of World War I where it really was benign. They occupied Poland or part of Poland and it was benign. In other words, the occupation, they were not harsh on Jews. On the other end, Jews were very friendly because our language, the Jewish language resembled German, so there were a lot of Germans in that town. They used to speak Jewish too, or Jews spoke German. So, the Jews kind of figured it will go over. Maybe the war will take a little longer, but it's not going to be that bad. They did not expect anything very bad. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 30 | Do you remember what the Catholic population was thinking? Were they eager for Germany to come in? Were they prepared to fight them? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 31 | At that time, it was more or less, I would say a partnership between Jews and Catholics, because they had a history, the catholics had a bad history of German occupations. The Jews already knew what was going to happen, that they are putting Jews in concentration camps and so on. That they are really against Jews, the Germans. So, naturally at that point they were united. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 32 | Do you remember the day that was occupied by Germany? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 33 | What I remember is one morning, I think it was on a Friday, we were all sleeping and all of a sudden, a great bang in that little town. A bomb was thrown. We did not know it was a bomb. We all ran out and we saw planes going over. There was near the town, not far from the town were German garrison (ph). They tried to bomb the garrison but they missed. They bombed the city. At that time, radios whatever you could hear, they announced already that the war had begun. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 34 | They tried to bomb a German garrison? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 35 | No, it was a Polish Army garrison, which from what I guess, they wanted to bomb, but they probably missed. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 36 | Do you remember what was going on at this point? You went outside, you realized there had been a bomb. What did you see? What were people doing? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 37 | Panic, immediately. There was great panic in town. People did not know what to do, to stay in that little town or escape to Warsaw. My parents they went to Warsaw. All the six children and my mother. My father was in the militia. He was a young man. They took him in the militia to watch black outs. Once the German planes came they either threw out -- they didn't throw them out, but they let go certain soldiers in parachutes. His aim, my father's aim, was to watch that a black outs and there were some people who came in there to bomb some bridges. So my father was there, and my mother was in Warsaw. Finally, my mother got very lonely or she was afraid that something was going to happen to my father, since he wasn't far, so she took me and we went back to that little city. Warsaw at that time was not spared, but they did not come yet, the Germans. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 38 | So, what happened after this? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 39 | I went back with that little city. My mother stayed with my father, otherwise he was in the Reserves, the Military Reserves, but she watched after him and I was around there and watched after the mill, which we had. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 40 | It was still going? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 41 | Yes. I stayed there. All of sudden we heard that Warsaw was surrounded, and here my mother and father were very anxious because five children were there. We heard that the Germans surrounded them and the artillery is going, and there was no food because there were more than a million people in Warsaw. My father and mother decided that I should go back to Warsaw to help the children. So, they loaded me up with flour, food, but it was very tough, tough for me. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 42 | You were talking about you were going to take some food? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 43 | I had to take some food to help because starvation in Warsaw my mother and father heard about. And you know, they have four children left helter skeltor in Warsaw in a small room. So, they loaded me up with all kinds of food and they said, maybe he'll make it even though Warsaw was surrounded. It was very heavy what they put on, and I remember my father and mother, my mother would say to my father, maybe we'll never see him again. But I guess the urge to help the children was greater and my father kind of looked at me and probably thought the same way, will I go through it, because there were horses and people on the street massacred, killed on the way to Warsaw. In other words, out of town the Germans would also throw in a bomb, artillery, bombed it. Many people would walk through the streets going to Warsaw you would see carnage. So, my mother kind of kissed me and says who knows if I'll ever see him to my father, and my father clenched his hand and I turned around and I walked. I never saw them again. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 44 | How do you know what happened to them? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 45 | Well, I came back from Warsaw, that same day Warsaw capitulated. I want to tell you first. I made it into Warsaw. It was very hard. It was very hard, but when I came Warsaw was surrounded there was a time they had what you call -- they stopped fighting to collect the dead. The Germans were fighting the Poles, the Polish Army. They were surrounding them and of course, the Polish Army had some fierce resistance. However, there was a time when they got the Red Cross or whatever, they arranged a one hour to get the dead out of the way. Germans and Polish. At that time, kids like us could go through. I made it and somehow when I came to a certain bridge, since they bombarded the bridge with artillery, I had flour in the bag and a piece of shrapnel went in there. The flour, we got out of it, but we had other food. The flour went on the floor and I made it and I brought it to my brother and sisters, because there was starvation. Artillery, there were people killed, burned, fire was all over. However, the Poles at that time they put up a tremendous heroic, what do you call it -- heroic resistance. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 46 | How old were you at this time? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 47 | I think I remember I was 12 years old. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 48 | How far was the distance between your town and Warsaw’? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 49 | Not far. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 50 | Did you walk or on a train? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 51 | Only walking. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 52 | How long would it normally take to walk? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 53 | It didn't take a day, I want you to know, because the carnage on the way was great. The artillery we had to go at midnight. Somehow I think it took two and half, three days until I made it in. It was like an inferno. Warsaw was an inferno. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 54 | Weren't you frightened? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 55 | What do you think? I certainly was frightened. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 56 | You were a little boy. | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 57 | I was frightened because there were fires and we never knew running through the street whether the building would collapse. And on top of it, since I was a little boy, after delivery I was told by the Polish Army, and rightly so, to help dig ditches in case the Germans advance. They called anybody who could do something. I was frightened, that's the answer. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 58 | When you were carrying all these goods to Warsaw, at this time you were asked to help dig ditches? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 59 | I helped do what? | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 60 | The Polish people, the Polish Army dig the ditches? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 61 | The Army in Warsaw was preparing ditches against tanks, in case they advanced so any able bodied, any kid, anybody that could see on the street, they made him come and do it. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 62 | Were you traveling alone or with people? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 63 | A party of one. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 64 | Tell me a little bit of what happened next, you made it to Warsaw? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 65 | Well, there was starvation, and the worst thing there was no water. We were hiding in basements. It was really mayhem. People would stand in line for bread, and artillery would just mow them down and kill them. It was an inferno, fires all over. The funny thing, it was during the Jewish holiday, but Jews no matter what it is, what is was, whoever had enough religious upbringing would hide in the underground and have the services. Some of them stayed down there and were buried alive by the artillery. Not just artillery, but planes, where they would just circle the city and fire whoever they saw or just at random at any building. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 66 | Did you attend any of these services? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 67 | I don't think so. No, I was impatient. I would have liked to go back, but somehow -- I had other problems. We had no water and there was a river and we were all running for water, to drink water. That's a very terrible deal when you have no water, and it was also very dangerous because there were not the Germans. At that time they were shooting the people who came for water. So, some of them never came back. I was very little. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 68 | Did you see the shooting? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 69 | Well, certainly. It wasn't shooting especially, it was bombarding, you know from the air. I either get trapped or I ran away. IfI get trapped, then I wait there. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 70 | What else can you describe about conditions at that time? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 71 | Jewish people were very scared at that time. I think, or I heard that most of the bombardment at that time was directed to the Jewish quarter, most of the bombardment and I guess Jews were very much congregated in one area and the Germans were aware -- in fact they were aware of everything, but this in Warsaw. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 72 | Were you hiding in this Jewish area? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 73 | Yes, I was hiding in the Jewish area wherever I could. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 74 | Do you have any remembrance of any Polish catholic people you knew at this time. Did your relationship with them change or did you separate? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 75 | I think it was very much -- there were cold sufferers and they used to meet at the river if they get water, and it didn't make at that point in time, it didn't make any difference whether you were Jewish, Polish, catholic. At that point we were all Poles against the Germans. I want you to know the Jews were more interested to fight the Germans because they knew that they anticipated bad days. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 76 | How did that relationship start to change? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 77 | At the time of bombardment, I think there was no animosity against each other because there was normally a one enemy, which had to be scared of. There was no real animosity. People would stand in line for bread whether they were Poles, Catholics, Jews or anybody else. Each one was miserable. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 78 | Didn't that relationship, though, change? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 79 | Not really, only after the war. It always changed later on. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 80 | That is not something you experienced? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 81 | I did not experience anything like that. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 82 | I guess before we continue, when did you get any information about your parents. | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 83 | Let me tell you. As soon as the armistice was declared, the same day I picked up -- the rest of the children were still in Warsaw -- I picked up and got through the line, because even though there was an armistice, you didn't cross the line, the Germans. However, children they let through, and we went through, and we went up a few kilometers and all of sudden I found out what really happened. I went with another friend. He was not Jewish, he was Catholic. We went back to the city and there was a German sentry and he called over because I did not know that they had at that time a curfew in the middle of the night. So, the German soldier just grabbed me and slashed his throat. So, I understood right now that I have a lot of worries watching myself. In the morning I walked. I couldn't go at night, in the evening. It took me another day to get through to see if I can meet my parents. In the front of the city I had an uncle. He had a little restaurant. I walked into this restaurant, nobody there. I got into that little city and all of a sudden I see people that don't want to talk to me. Everytime I ask someone you know where are my parents, they took off. That kind of feeling, maybe they escaped. So, I went into that little mill and people were robbing and I was just sitting until a man came over, a huge man, and he said "These people are robbing this kid. He's just an orphan." I didn't understand him. Then my uncle came in and he says to me "Don't you know about ," that's the time I got immediately, and I couldn't believe it. I asked him where is it that they -- they are digging. I ran over and there was -- they were trying to dig for the people. They were just not my parents, there were bombs and maybe thirty people, twenty-five people in my uncle's restaurant's basement that were all killed. They were all decimated. I took out and I recognized the skull and half of my father's clothes, a little bit of my mother. I got very sick, and I walked out, then I knew for sure that I didn't have any parents anymore. I got sick and dizzy and they took me to the hospital. Then, of course, they were buried in a certain place. A few days later they took the remains of all the people and I came there and I made a mark so I can find it and well it comes later when I go fifty years later. That's how I met my parents again. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 84 | How long after the war began in Poland was this armistice when you went back to Warsaw’? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 85 | The armistice from the beginning it was about 30 days, the whole war, and mind you, from what I found out there were killed about 36 hours before the armistice they were bombed. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 86 | (Can't hear the tape) | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 87 | Yes, uncle, aunt, and other family, cousins. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 88 | (Can't hear the tape) | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 89 | Not all, but most. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 90 | What did you do after this? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 91 | Well, I was there, no communication with the children. They came about a week later and of course, we didn't know what to do. We were orphans. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 92 | I just want to ask you one questions. In terms of the ages of your brothers and sisters, were you little, were you young? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 93 | I happened to be the third. We were six. I was the third. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 94 | So, you were there and you didn't know what to do? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 95 | We didn't know what to do, and we were very depressed. Somehow, we found also our apartment was bombed. We had to go in a little room. My sister had nothing to survive on -- my sister tried to make some food for people. Sometimes German soldiers used to come by and she would make some food for them in order to earn something. We stayed there, what I remember is all of a sudden my sister disappeared, and we were left. I did not know why, and I was very mad at her. But later I found out that the German soldiers tried to attack her. She was then, I think she was 17 years old. She was six years older than me, so she just took off one day, and run abroad to Russia. See, the Russians took half of Poland, and the Germans took the other one. This was the real pact, the map which separated Poland. So, my sister took off, somehow at that time it was chaos. Anybody who could run across even though -- it wasn't easy, but she made it. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 96 | The German soldiers tried to rape her? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 97 | They tried, yes, but she was ashamed to tell us, and she escaped, and she left us five in that city. She was the cook. Again, we were out of business I think about two months. We had to get out of there, out of the city. | answer |
RG-50.030.0001 | 98 | I know this is a difficult question but did you find out later whether the Germans were able to rape her? | question |
RG-50.030.0001 | 99 | I really don't know. Maybe she was just afraid, I don't know. I asked her and she would never tell me, because she lives in San Francisco. I keep on asking. | answer |