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2008-09-16T21:05:00.000

php,python,performance,pylons

You need to be able to make a business case for switching, not just that "it's faster". If a site built on technology B costs 20% more in developer time for maintenance over a set period (say, 3 years), it would likely be cheaper to add another webserver to the system running technology A to bridge the performance gap. Just saying "we should switch to technology B because technology B is faster!" doesn't really work. Since Python is far less ubiquitous than PHP, I wouldn't be surprised if hosting, developer, and other maintenance costs for it (long term) would have it fit this scenario.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages? Does anyone know how the speed of pylons(or any of the other frameworks) compares to a similar website made with php? I know that serving a python base webpage via cgi is slower than php because of its long start up every time. I enjoy using pylons and I would still use it if it was slower than php. But if pylons was faster than php, I could maybe, hopefully, eventually convince my employer to allow me to convert the site over to pylons.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages?

2008-09-16T21:05:00.000

php,python,performance,pylons

There's no point in attempting to convince your employer to port from PHP to Python, especially not for an existing system, which is what I think you implied in your question. The reason for this is that you already have a (presumably) working system, with an existing investment of time and effort (and experience). To discard this in favour of a trivial performance gain (not that I'm claiming there would be one) would be foolish, and no manager worth his salt ought to endorse it. It may also create a problem with maintainability, depending on who else has to work with the system, and their experience with Python.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages? Does anyone know how the speed of pylons(or any of the other frameworks) compares to a similar website made with php? I know that serving a python base webpage via cgi is slower than php because of its long start up every time. I enjoy using pylons and I would still use it if it was slower than php. But if pylons was faster than php, I could maybe, hopefully, eventually convince my employer to allow me to convert the site over to pylons.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages?

2008-09-16T21:05:00.000

php,python,performance,pylons

The only right answer is "It depends". There's a lot of variables that can affect the performance, and you can optimize many things in either situation.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages? Does anyone know how the speed of pylons(or any of the other frameworks) compares to a similar website made with php? I know that serving a python base webpage via cgi is slower than php because of its long start up every time. I enjoy using pylons and I would still use it if it was slower than php. But if pylons was faster than php, I could maybe, hopefully, eventually convince my employer to allow me to convert the site over to pylons.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages?

2008-09-16T21:05:00.000

php,python,performance,pylons

PHP and Python are similiar enough to not warrent any kind of switching. Any performance improvement you might get from switching from one language to another would be vastly outgunned by simply not spending the money on converting the code (you don't code for free right?) and just buy more hardware.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages? Does anyone know how the speed of pylons(or any of the other frameworks) compares to a similar website made with php? I know that serving a python base webpage via cgi is slower than php because of its long start up every time. I enjoy using pylons and I would still use it if it was slower than php. But if pylons was faster than php, I could maybe, hopefully, eventually convince my employer to allow me to convert the site over to pylons.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages?

2008-09-16T21:05:00.000

php,python,performance,pylons

an IS organization would not ponder this unless availability was becoming an issue. if so the case, look into replication, load balancing and lots of ram.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages? Does anyone know how the speed of pylons(or any of the other frameworks) compares to a similar website made with php? I know that serving a python base webpage via cgi is slower than php because of its long start up every time. I enjoy using pylons and I would still use it if it was slower than php. But if pylons was faster than php, I could maybe, hopefully, eventually convince my employer to allow me to convert the site over to pylons.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages?

2008-09-16T21:05:00.000

php,python,performance,pylons

I had to come back to web development at my new job, and, if not Pylons/Python, maybe I would have chosen to live in jungle instead :) In my subjective opinion, PHP is for kindergarten, I did it in my 3rd year of uni and, I believe, many self-respecting (or over-estimating) software engineers will not want to be bothered with PHP code. Why my employers agreed? We (the team) just switched to Python, and they did not have much to say. The website still is and will be PHP, but we are developing other applications, including web, in Python. Advantages of Pylons? You can integrate your python libraries into the web app, and that is, imho, a huge advantage. As for performance, we are still having troubles.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages? Does anyone know how the speed of pylons(or any of the other frameworks) compares to a similar website made with php? I know that serving a python base webpage via cgi is slower than php because of its long start up every time. I enjoy using pylons and I would still use it if it was slower than php. But if pylons was faster than php, I could maybe, hopefully, eventually convince my employer to allow me to convert the site over to pylons.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages?

2008-09-16T21:05:00.000

php,python,performance,pylons

It's about the same. The difference shouldn't be large enough to be the reason to pick one or the other. Don't try to compare them by writing your own tiny benchmarks ("hello world") because you will probably not have results that are representative of a real web site generating a more complex page.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages? Does anyone know how the speed of pylons(or any of the other frameworks) compares to a similar website made with php? I know that serving a python base webpage via cgi is slower than php because of its long start up every time. I enjoy using pylons and I would still use it if it was slower than php. But if pylons was faster than php, I could maybe, hopefully, eventually convince my employer to allow me to convert the site over to pylons.

Which is faster, python webpages or php webpages?

2008-09-16T21:15:00.000

python,ruby-on-rails,ruby,apache-flex,blazeds

The data management features for LCDS described here are certainly valid, however I believe they do not let you actually develop a solution faster. A developer still has to write ALL the data access code, query execution, extracting data from datareaders into value objects. ALL of this has been solved a dozen of times with code generators. For instance the data management approach in WebORB for Java (much like in WebORB for .NET and PHP) is based on code generation which creates code for both client side AND server-side. You get all the ActionScript APIs out of the code generator to do full CRUD. Additionally, WebORB provides video streaming and real-time messaging features and goes WAY beyond what both BlazeDS and LCDS offer combined, especially considering that the product is free. Just google it.

I'm doing a tech review and looking at AMF integration with various backends (Rails, Python, Grails etc). Lots of options are out there, question is, what do the Adobe products do (BlazeDS etc) that something like RubyAMF / pyAMF don't?

What does BlazeDS Livecycle Data Services do, that something like PyAMF or RubyAMF not do?

2008-09-16T21:15:00.000

python,ruby-on-rails,ruby,apache-flex,blazeds

Good question. I'm not a ruby guy (i use java with flex), but what I believe differentiates blazeds vs commercial livecycle ds is Streaming protocol support (rtmp) - competition for comet and such, delivering video Some advanced stuff for hibernate detached objects and large resultset caching that I don't fully understand or need support? Might be others but those are the ones I know off the top of my head.

I'm doing a tech review and looking at AMF integration with various backends (Rails, Python, Grails etc). Lots of options are out there, question is, what do the Adobe products do (BlazeDS etc) that something like RubyAMF / pyAMF don't?

What does BlazeDS Livecycle Data Services do, that something like PyAMF or RubyAMF not do?

2008-09-16T21:15:00.000

python,ruby-on-rails,ruby,apache-flex,blazeds

Other than NIO (RTMP) channels, LCDS include also the "data management" features. Using this feature, you basically implement, in an ActionScript class, a CRUD-like interface defined by LCDS, and you get: automatic progressive list loading (large lists/datagrids loads while scrolling) automatic crud management (you get object locally in flash, modify it, send it back and DB will get updated automatically) feature for conflict resolution (if multiple user try to updated the same record at the same time) if I remember well, also some improved integration with the LiveCycle ES workflow engine IMO, it can be very fast to develop this way, but only if you have only basic requirements and a simple architecture (forget SOA, that otherwise works so well with Flex). I'm fine with BlazeDS.

I'm doing a tech review and looking at AMF integration with various backends (Rails, Python, Grails etc). Lots of options are out there, question is, what do the Adobe products do (BlazeDS etc) that something like RubyAMF / pyAMF don't?

What does BlazeDS Livecycle Data Services do, that something like PyAMF or RubyAMF not do?

2008-09-16T21:50:00.000

python

I might say something unpopular here: id() is a rather specialized built-in function that is rarely used in business logic. Therefore I don't see a problem in using it as a variable name in a tight and well-written function, where it's clear that id doesn't mean the built-in function.

Why is it bad to name a variable id in Python?

'id' is a bad variable name in Python

2008-09-16T21:50:00.000

python

Because python is a dynamic language, it's not usually a good idea to give a variable and a function the same name. id() is a function in python, so it's recommend not to use a variable named id. Bearing that in mind, that applies to all functions that you might use... a variable shouldn't have the same name as a function.

Why is it bad to name a variable id in Python?

'id' is a bad variable name in Python

2008-09-16T21:50:00.000

python

Because it's the name of a builtin function.

Why is it bad to name a variable id in Python?

'id' is a bad variable name in Python

2008-09-16T21:50:00.000

python

It's bad to name any variable after a built in function. One of the reasons is because it can be confusing to a reader that doesn't know the name is overridden.

Why is it bad to name a variable id in Python?

'id' is a bad variable name in Python

2008-09-17T05:15:00.000

c#,python,btrieve

This depends a lot on the version of Btrieve. I've been working with btrieve for a long time and have found that the best API for the old 6.15 version was in pascal. That having been said there was definately a C api around as well. Pervasive have recently released a 6.15 ultimate patch. Using this and the C api should allow you to work effectively with older btrieve databases. It is possible for instance to build new modules for python using C.

Is there any library available to query Btrieve databases without buying something from Pervasive? I'm looking to code in C# or Python.

Btrieve without Pervasive?

2008-09-17T05:15:00.000

c#,python,btrieve

If you download one of the trial versions, you can get/install the odbc client and connect that way. In our version of pervasive (older version) on the server where the database is installed, you can also find this client install.

Is there any library available to query Btrieve databases without buying something from Pervasive? I'm looking to code in C# or Python.

Btrieve without Pervasive?

2008-09-17T05:15:00.000

c#,python,btrieve

As far as I know that is not possible. It is not an open source database, so writing drivers for it is really hard.

Is there any library available to query Btrieve databases without buying something from Pervasive? I'm looking to code in C# or Python.

Btrieve without Pervasive?

2008-09-17T11:28:00.000

python,qt,gtk,pyqt

For plotting with you should also consider matplotlib, which provides a higher level API and integrates well with PyQT.

I know it's possible to place a PyCairo surface inside a Gtk Drawing Area. But I think Qt is a lot better to work with, so I've been wondering if there's anyway to place a PyCairo surface inside some Qt component?

PyQt and PyCairo

2008-09-17T12:37:00.000

python,django

Byteflow is a blog engine, written on Python, using Django

Is there any list of blog engines, written in Django?

Is there any list of blog engines, written in Django?

2008-09-17T12:37:00.000

python,django

Django's powerful admin interface and easy ORM makes it a 30 minute job to build a blog that propably fits your needs; Why look for a 3rd party product when you can make it yourself very quickly?

Is there any list of blog engines, written in Django?

Is there any list of blog engines, written in Django?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Towards answering the updated question, its a chicken/egg problem. The best way to justify an expense is to show how it reduces a cost somewhere else, so you may need to spend some extra/personal time to learn something first to build some kind of functional prototype. Show your boss a demo like "hey, i did this thing, and it saves me this much time [or better yet, this much $$], imagine if everyone could use this how much money we would save" and then after they agree, explain how it is some other technology and that it is worth the expense to get more training, and training for others on how to do it better.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Personally I work on a Java app, but I couldn't get by without perl for some supporting scripts. I've got scripts to quickly flip what db I'm pointing at, scripts to run build scripts, scripts to scrape data & compare stuff. Sure I could do all that with java, or maybe shell scripts (I've got some of those too), but who wants to compile a class (making sure the classpath is set right etc) when you just need something quick and dirty. Knowing a scripting language can remove 90% of those boring/repetitive manual tasks.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

They're useful for the "Quick Hack" that is for plugging a gap in your main language for a quick (and potentially dirty) fix faster than it would take to develop the same in your main language. An example: a simple script in perl to go through a large text file and replace all instances of an email address with another is trivial with an amount of time taken in the 10 minute range. Hacking a console app together to do the same in your main language would take multiples of that. You also have the benefit that exposing yourself to additional languages broadens your abilities and learning to attack problems from a different languages perspective can be as valuable as the language itself. Finally, scripting languages are very useful in the realm of extension. Take LUA as an example. You can bolt a lua interpreter into your app with very little overhead and you now have a way to create rich scripting functionality that can be exposed to end users or altered and distributed quickly without requiring a rebuild of the entire app. This is used to great effect in many games most notably World of Warcraft.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Im not sure if this is what you are looking for, but we write our main application with Java at the small company I work for, but have used python to write smaller scripts quickly. Backup software, temporary scripts to manipulate data and push out results. It just seems easier sometimes to sit down with python and write a quick script than mess with classes and stuff in java. Temp scripts that aren't going to stick around don't need a lot of design time wasted on them. And I am lazy, but it is good to just learn as much as you can of course and see what features exist in other languages. Knowing more never hurts you in future career changes :)

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

You should also consider learning a functional programming language like Scala. It has many of the advantages of Ruby, including a concise syntax, and powerful features like closures. But it compiles to Java class files and and integrate seamlessly into a Java stack, which may make it much easier for your employer to swallow. Scala isn't dynamically typed, but its "implicit conversion" feature gives many, perhaps even all of the benefits of dynamic typing, while retaining many of the advantages of static typing.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Learning something with a flexible OOP system, like Lisp or Perl (see Moose), will allow you to better expand and understand your thoughts on software engineering. Ideally, every language has some unique facet (whether it be CLOS or some other technique) that enhances, extends and grows your abilities as a programmer.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

If all you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail. There are times when having a screwdriver or pair of pliers makes a complicated problem trivial. Nobody asks contractors, carpenters, etc, "Why learn to use a screwdriver if i already have a hammer?". Really good contractors/carpenters have tons of tools and know how to use them well. All programmers should be doing the same thing, learning to use new tools and use them well. But before we use any power tools, lets take a moment to talk about shop safety. Be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools. Doing so will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. And remember this: there is no more important rule than to wear these: safety glasses -- Norm

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Dynamic languages are fantastic for prototyping ideas. Often for performance reasons they won't work for permanent solutions or products. But, with languages like Python, which allow you to embed standard C/C++/Java inside them or visa versa, you can speed up the really critical bits but leave it glued together with the flexibility of a dynamic language. ...and so you get the best of both worlds. If you need to justify this in terms of why more people should learn these languages, just point out much faster you can develop the same software and how much more robust the solution is (because debugging/fixing problems in dynamic languages is in my experience, considerably easier!).

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Knowing grep and ruby made it possible to narrow down a problem, and verify the fix for, an issue involving tons of java exceptions on some production servers. Because I threw the solution together in ruby, it was done (designed, implemented, tested, run, bug-fixed, re-run, enhanced, results analyzed) in an afternoon instead of a couple of days. I could have solved the same problem using an all-java solution or a C# solution, but it most likely would have taken me longer. Having dynamic language expertise also sometimes leads you to simpler solutions in less dynamic languages. In ruby, perl or python, you just intuitively reach for associative arrays (hashes, dictionaries, whatever word you want to use) for the smallest things, where you might be tempted to create a complex class hierarchy in a statically typed language when the problem doesn't necessarily demand it. Plus you can plug in most scripting languages into most runtimes. So it doesn't have to be either/or.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Learning a new language is a long-term process. In a couple of days you'll learn the basics, yes. But! As you probably know, the real practical applicability of any language is tied to the standard library and other available components. Learning how to use the efficiently requires a lot of hands-on experience. Perhaps the only immediate short-term benefit is that developers learn to distinguish the nails that need a Python/Perl/Ruby -hammer. And, if they are any good, they can then study some more (online, perhaps!) and become real experts. The long-term benefits are easier to imagine: The employee becomes a better developer. Better developer => better quality. We are living in a knowledge economy these days. It's wiser to invest in those brains that already work for you. It is easier to adapt when the next big language emerges. It is very likely that the NBL will have many of the features present in today's scripting languages: first-class functions, closures, streams/generators, etc. New market possibilities and ability to respond more quickly. Even if you are not writing Python, other people are. Your clients? Another vendor in the project? Perhaps a critical component was written in some other language? It will cost money and time, if you do not have people who can understand the code and interface with it. Recruitment. If your company has a reputation of teaching new and interesting stuff to people, it will be easier to recruit the top people. Everyone is doing Java/C#/C++. It is not a very effective way to differentiate yourself in the job market.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

The "real benefit" that an employer could see is a better programmer who can implement solutions faster; however, you will not be able to provide any hard numbers to justify the expense and an employer will most likely have you work on what makes money now as opposed to having you work on things that make the future better. The only time you can get training on the employer's dime, is when they perceive a need for it and it's cheaper than hiring a new person who already has that skill-set.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Testing. It's often quicker and easier to test your C#/Java application by using a dynamic language. You can do exploratory testing at the interactive prompt and quickly create automated test scripts.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

I think the main benefits of dynamic languages can be boiled down to Rapid development Glue The short design-code-test cycle time makes dynamic languages ideal for prototyping, tools, and quick & dirty one-off scripts. IMHO, the latter two can make a huge impact on a programmer's productivity. It amazes me how many people trudge through things manually instead of whipping up a tool to do it for them. I think it's because they don't have something like Perl in their toolbox. The ability to interface with just about anything (other programs or languages, databases, etc.) makes it easy to reuse existing work and automate tasks that would otherwise need to be done manually.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Others have already explained why learning more languages makes you a better programmer. As for convincing your boss it's worth it, this is probably just your company's culture. Some places make career and skill progress a policy (move up or out), some places value it but leave it up to the employee's initiative, and some places are very focused on the bottom line. If you have to explain why learning a language is a good thing to your boss, my advice would be to stay at work only as long as necessary, then go home and study new things on your own.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

For after work work, for freelance jobs...:) and final to be programming literate as possible as...;)

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Edit: I wrote this before reading the update to the original question. See my other answer for a better answer to the updated question. I will leave this as is as a warning against being the fastest gun in the west =) Over a decade ago, when I was learning the ways of the Computer, the Old Wise Men With Beards explained how C and C++ are the tools of the industry. No one used Pascal and only the foolhardy would risk their companies with assembler. And of course, no one would even mention the awful slow ugly thing called Java. It will not be a tool for serious business. So. Um. Replace the languages in the above story and perhaps you can predict the future. Perhaps you can't. Point is, Java will not be the Last Programming Language ever and also you will most likely switch employers as well. The future is charging at you 24 hours per day. Be prepared. Learning new languages is good for you. Also, in some cases it can give you bragging rights for a long time. My first university course was in Scheme. So when people talk to me about the new language du jour, my response is something like "First-class functions? That's so last century." And of course, you get more stuff done with a high-level language.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

A lot of times some quick task comes up that isn't part of the main software you are developing. Sometimes the task is one off ie compare this file to the database and let me know the differences. It is a lot easier to do text parsing in Perl/Ruby/Python than it is in Java or C# (partially because it is a lot easier to use regular expressions). It will probably take a lot less time to parse the text file using Perl/Ruby/Python (or maybe even vbscript cringe and then load it into the database than it would to create a Java/C# program to do it or to do it by hand. Also, due to the ease at which most of the dynamic languages parse text, they are great for code generation. Sure your final project must be in C#/Java/Transact SQL but instead of cutting and pasting 100 times, finding errors, and cutting and pasting another 100 times it is often (but not always) easier just to use a code generator. A recent example at work is we needed to get data from one accounting system into our accounting system. The system has an import format, but the old system had a completely different format (fixed width although some things had to be matched). The task is not to create a program to migrate the data over and over again. It is to shove the data into our system and then maintain it there going forward. So even though we are a C# and SQL Server shop, I used Python to convert the data into the format that could be imported by our application. Ultimately it doesn't matter that I used python, it matters that the data is in the system. My boss was pretty impressed. Where I often see the dynamic languages used for is testing. It is much easier to create a Python/Perl/Ruby program to link to a web service and throw some data against it than it is to create the equivalent Java program. You can also use python to hit against command line programs, generate a ton of garbage (but still valid) test data, etc.. quite easily. The other thing that dynamic languages are big on is code generation. Creating the C#/C++/Java code. Some examples follow: The first code generation task I often see is people using dynamic languages to maintain constants in the system. Instead of hand coding a bunch of enums, a dynamic language can be used to fairly easily parse a text file and create the Java/C# code with the enums. SQL is a whole other ball game but often you get better performance by cut and pasting 100 times instead of trying to do a function (due to caching of execution plans or putting complicated logic in a function causing you to go row by row instead of in a set). In fact it is quite useful to use the table definition to create certain stored procedures automatically. It is always better to get buy in for a code generator. But even if you don't, is it more fun to spend time cutting/pasting or is it more fun to create a Perl/Python/Ruby script once and then have that generate the code? If it takes you hours to hand code something but less time to create a code generator, then even if you use it once you have saved time and hence money. If it takes you longer to create a code generator than it takes to hand code once but you know you will have to update the code more than once, it may still make sense. If it takes you 2 hours to hand code, 4 hours to do the generator but you know you'll have to hand code equivalent work another 5 or 6 times than it is obviously better to create the generator. Also some things are easier with dynamic languages than Java/C#/C/C++. In particular regular expressions come to mind. If you start using regular expressions in Perl and realize their value, you may suddenly start making use of the Java regular expression library if you haven't before. If you have then there may be something else. I will leave you with one last example of a task that would have been great for a dynamic language. My work mate had to take a directory full of files and burn them to various cd's for various customers. There were a few customers but a lot of files and you had to look in them to see what they were. He did this task by hand....A Java/C# program would have saved time, but for one time and with all the development overhead it isn't worth it. However slapping something together in Perl/Python/Ruby probably would have been worth it. He spent several hours doing it. It would have taken less than one to create the Python script to inspect each file, match which customer it goes to, and then move the file to the appropriate place.....Again, not part of the standard job. But the task came up as a one off. Is it better to do it yourself, spend the larger amount of time to make Java/C# do the task, or spend a much smaller amount of time doing it in Python/Perl/Ruby. If you are using C or C++ the point is even more dramatic due to the extra concerns of programming in C or C++ (pointers, no array bounds checking, etc.).

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Often, dynamc languages (especially python and lua) are embedded in programs to add a more plugin-like functionality and because they are high-level languages that make it easy to add certain behavior, where a low/mid-level language is not needed. Lua specificially lacks all the low-level system calls because it was designed for easeof-use to add functionality within the program, not as a general programming language.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

It's all about broadening your horizons as a developer. If you limit yourself to only strong-typed languages, you may not end up the best programmer you could. As for tasks, Python/Lua/Ruby/Perl are great for small simple tasks, like finding some files and renaming them. They also work great when paired with a framework (e.g. Rails, Django, Lua for Windows) for developing simple apps quickly. Hell, 37Signals is based on creating simple yet very useful apps in Ruby on Rails.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Philosophical issues aside, I know that I have gotten value from writing quick-and-dirty Ruby scripts to solve brute-force problems that Java was just too big for. Last year I had three separate directory structures that were all more-or-less the same, but with lots of differences among the files (the client hadn't heard of version control and I'll leave the rest to your imagination). It would have taken a great deal of overhead to write an analyzer in Java, but in Ruby I had one working in about 40 minutes.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Given the increasing focus to running dynamic languages (da-vinci vm etc.) on the JVM and the increasing number of dynamic languages that do run on it (JRuby, Grrovy, Jython) I think the usecases are just increasing. Some of the scenarios I found really benifited are Prototyping- use RoR or Grails to build quick prototypes with advantage of being able to runn it on the standard app server and (maybe) reuse existing services etc. Testing- right unit tests much much faster in dynamic languages Performance/automation test scripting- some of these tools are starting to allow the use standard dynamic language of choice to write the test scripts instead of proprietary script languages. Side benefit might be to the able to reuse some unit test code you've already written.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Don't tell your employer that you want to learn Ruby. Tell him you want to learn about the state-of-the-art in web framework technologies. it just happens that the hottest ones are Django and Ruby on Rails.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Don't bother your employer, spend ~$40 on a book, download some software, and devote some time each day to read/do exercises. In no time you'll be trained :)

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be. - Wayne Gretzky Our industry is always changing. No language can be mainstream forever. To me Java, C++, .Net is where the puck is right now. And python, ruby, perl is where the puck is going to be. Decide for yourself if you wanna be good or great!

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

I have often found that learning another language, especially a dynamically typed language, can teach you things about other languages and make you an overall better programmer. Learning ruby, for example, will teach you Object Oriented programming in ways Java wont, and vice versa. All in all, I believe that it is better to be a well rounded programmer than stuck in a single language. It makes you more valuable to the companies/clients you work for.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Dynamic languages are a different way to think and sometimes the practices you learn from a dynamic or functional language can transfer to the more statically typed languages but if you never take the time to learn different languages, you'll never get the benefit of having a knew way to think when you are coding.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

Let me turn your question on its head by asking what use it is to an American English speaker to learn another language? The languages we speak (and those we program in) inform the way we think. This can happen on a fundamental level, such as c++ versus javascript versus lisp, or on an implementation level, in which a ruby construct provides a eureka moment for a solution in your "real job." Speaking of your real job, if the market goes south and your employer decides to "right size" you, how do you think you'll stack up against a guy who is flexible because he's written software in tens of languages, instead of your limited exposure? All things being equal, I think the answer is clear. Finally, you program for a living because you love programming... right?

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

I primarily program in Java and C# but use dynamic languages (ruby/perl) to support smoother deployment, kicking off OS tasks, automated reporting, some log parsing, etc. After a short time learning and experimenting with ruby or perl you should be able to write some regex manipulating scripts that can alter data formats or grab information from logs. An example of a small ruby/perl script that could be written quickly would be a script to parse a very large log file and report out only a few events of interest in either a human readable format or a csv format. Also, having experience with a variety of different programming languages should help you think of new ways to tackle problems in more structured languages like Java, C++, and C#.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

One big reason to learn Perl or Ruby is to help you automate any complicated tasks that you have to do over and over. Or if you have to analyse contents of log files and you need more mungeing than available using grep, sed, etc. Also using other languages, e.g. Ruby, that don't have much "setup cost" will let you quickly prototype ideas before implementing them in C++, Java, etc. HTH cheers, Rob

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

I have found the more that I play with Ruby, the better I understand C#. 1) As you switch between these languages that each of them has their own constructs and philosophies behind the problems that they try to solve. This will help you when finding the right tool for the job or the domain of a problem. 2) The role of the compiler (or interpreter for some languages) becomes more prominent. Why is Ruby's type system differ from the .Net/C# system? What problems do each of these solve? You'll find yourself understanding at a lower level the constructs of the compiler and its influence on the language 3) Switching between Ruby and C# really helped me to understand Design Patterns better. I really suggest implementing common design patterns in a language like C# and then in a language like Ruby. It often helped me see through some of the compiler ceremony to the philosophy of a particular pattern. 4) A different community. C#, Java, Ruby, Python, etc all have different communities that can help engage your abilities. It is a great way to take your craft to the next level. 5) Last, but not least, because new languages are fun :)

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T15:16:00.000

c#,java,python,ruby,perl

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet. Learning a new language can be fun! Surely that's a good enough reason to try something new.

I wonder why would a C++, C#, Java developer want to learn a dynamic language? Assuming the company won't switch its main development language from C++/C#/Java to a dynamic one what use is there for a dynamic language? What helper tasks can be done by the dynamic languages faster or better after only a few days of learning than with the static language that you have been using for several years? Update After seeing the first few responses it is clear that there are two issues. My main interest would be something that is justifiable to the employer as an expense. That is, I am looking for justifications for the employer to finance the learning of a dynamic language. Aside from the obvious that the employee will have broader view, the employers are usually looking for some "real" benefit.

Why learn Perl, Python, Ruby if the company is using C++, C# or Java as the application language?

2008-09-17T17:23:00.000

python,network-programming

I don't think there is a built in way to get it from Python itself. My question is, how are you getting the IP information from your network? To get it from your local machine you could parse ifconfig (unix) or ipconfig (windows) with little difficulty.

I'd like to search for a given MAC address on my network, all from within a Python script. I already have a map of all the active IP addresses in the network but I cannot figure out how to glean the MAC address. Any ideas?

Search for host with MAC-address using Python

2008-09-17T17:23:00.000

python,network-programming

You would want to parse the output of 'arp', but the kernel ARP cache will only contain those IP address(es) if those hosts have communicated with the host where the Python script is running. ifconfig can be used to display the MAC addresses of local interfaces, but not those on the LAN.

I'd like to search for a given MAC address on my network, all from within a Python script. I already have a map of all the active IP addresses in the network but I cannot figure out how to glean the MAC address. Any ideas?

Search for host with MAC-address using Python

2008-09-17T17:23:00.000

python,network-programming

It seems that there is not a native way of doing this with Python. Your best bet would be to parse the output of "ipconfig /all" on Windows, or "ifconfig" on Linux. Consider using os.popen() with some regexps.

I'd like to search for a given MAC address on my network, all from within a Python script. I already have a map of all the active IP addresses in the network but I cannot figure out how to glean the MAC address. Any ideas?

Search for host with MAC-address using Python

2008-09-17T17:23:00.000

python,network-programming

Depends on your platform. If you're using *nix, you can use the 'arp' command to look up the mac address for a given IP (assuming IPv4) address. If that doesn't work, you could ping the address and then look, or if you have access to the raw network (using BPF or some other mechanism), you could send your own ARP packets (but that is probably overkill).

I'd like to search for a given MAC address on my network, all from within a Python script. I already have a map of all the active IP addresses in the network but I cannot figure out how to glean the MAC address. Any ideas?

Search for host with MAC-address using Python

2008-09-17T18:09:00.000

python,cross-platform,error-reporting

Whether you use SMTP or HTTP to send the data, you need to have a username/password in the application to prevent just anyone from sending random data to you. With that in mind, I suspect it would be easier to use SMTP rather than HTTP to send the data.

What would be the best way to implement a simple crash / error reporting mechanism? Details: my app is cross-platform (mac/windows/linux) and written in Python, so I just need something that will send me a small amount of text, e.g. just a timestamp and a traceback (which I already generate and show in my error dialog). It would be fine if it could simply email it, but I can't think of a way to do this without including a username and password for the smtp server in the application... Should I implement a simple web service on the server side and have my app send it an HTTP request with the info? Any better ideas?

How to best implement simple crash / error reporting?

2008-09-17T18:09:00.000

python,cross-platform,error-reporting

The web service is the best way, but there are some caveats: You should always ask the user if it is ok to send error feedback information. You should be prepared to fail gracefully if there are network errors. Don't let a failure to report a crash impede recovery! You should avoid including user identifying or sensitive information unless the user knows (see #1) and you should either use SSL or otherwise protect it. Some jurisdictions impose burdens on you that you might not want to deal with, so it's best to simply not save such information. Like any web service, make sure your service is not exploitable by miscreants.

What would be the best way to implement a simple crash / error reporting mechanism? Details: my app is cross-platform (mac/windows/linux) and written in Python, so I just need something that will send me a small amount of text, e.g. just a timestamp and a traceback (which I already generate and show in my error dialog). It would be fine if it could simply email it, but I can't think of a way to do this without including a username and password for the smtp server in the application... Should I implement a simple web service on the server side and have my app send it an HTTP request with the info? Any better ideas?

How to best implement simple crash / error reporting?

2008-09-17T18:09:00.000

python,cross-platform,error-reporting

The web hit is the way to go, but make sure you pick a good URL - your app will be hitting it for years to come.

What would be the best way to implement a simple crash / error reporting mechanism? Details: my app is cross-platform (mac/windows/linux) and written in Python, so I just need something that will send me a small amount of text, e.g. just a timestamp and a traceback (which I already generate and show in my error dialog). It would be fine if it could simply email it, but I can't think of a way to do this without including a username and password for the smtp server in the application... Should I implement a simple web service on the server side and have my app send it an HTTP request with the info? Any better ideas?

How to best implement simple crash / error reporting?

2008-09-17T18:09:00.000

python,cross-platform,error-reporting

Some kind of simple web service would suffice. You would have to consider security so not just anyone could make requests to your service.. On a larger scale we considered a JMS messaging system. Put a serialized object of data containing the traceback/error message into a queue and consume it every x minutes generating reports/alerts from that data.

What would be the best way to implement a simple crash / error reporting mechanism? Details: my app is cross-platform (mac/windows/linux) and written in Python, so I just need something that will send me a small amount of text, e.g. just a timestamp and a traceback (which I already generate and show in my error dialog). It would be fine if it could simply email it, but I can't think of a way to do this without including a username and password for the smtp server in the application... Should I implement a simple web service on the server side and have my app send it an HTTP request with the info? Any better ideas?

How to best implement simple crash / error reporting?

2008-09-17T18:25:00.000

python

Jython and IronPython are useful if you have an overriding need to interface with existing libraries written in a different platform, like if you have 100,000 lines of Java and you just want to write a 20-line Python script. Not particularly useful for anything else, in my opinion, because they are perpetually a few versions behind CPython due to community inertia. Stackless is interesting because it has support for green threads, continuations, etc. Sort of an Erlang-lite. PyPy is an experimental interpreter/compiler that may one day supplant CPython, but for now is more of a testbed for new ideas.

I am relatively new to Python, and I have always used the standard cpython (v2.5) implementation. I've been wondering about the other implementations though, particularly Jython and IronPython. What makes them better? What makes them worse? What other implementations are there? I guess what I'm looking for is a summary and list of pros and cons for each implementation.

What are the pros and cons of the various Python implementations?

2008-09-17T18:25:00.000

python

IronPython and Jython use the runtime environment for .NET or Java and with that comes Just In Time compilation and a garbage collector different from the original CPython. They might be also faster than CPython thanks to the JIT, but I don't know that for sure. A downside in using Jython or IronPython is that you cannot use native C modules, they can be only used in CPython.

I am relatively new to Python, and I have always used the standard cpython (v2.5) implementation. I've been wondering about the other implementations though, particularly Jython and IronPython. What makes them better? What makes them worse? What other implementations are there? I guess what I'm looking for is a summary and list of pros and cons for each implementation.

What are the pros and cons of the various Python implementations?

2008-09-17T18:25:00.000

python

Pros: Access to the libraries available for JVM or CLR. Cons: Both naturally lag behind CPython in terms of features.

I am relatively new to Python, and I have always used the standard cpython (v2.5) implementation. I've been wondering about the other implementations though, particularly Jython and IronPython. What makes them better? What makes them worse? What other implementations are there? I guess what I'm looking for is a summary and list of pros and cons for each implementation.

What are the pros and cons of the various Python implementations?

2008-09-17T20:48:00.000

python,asp-classic,vbscript

Half a year ago I took over a large web application (fortunately already in Python) which had some major architectural deficiencies (templates and code mixed, code duplication, you name it...). My plan is to eventually have the system respond to WSGI, but I am not there yet. I found the best way to do it, is in small steps. Over the last 6 month, code reuse has gone up and progress has accelerated. General principles which have worked for me: Throw away code which is not used or commented out Throw away all comments which are not useful Define a layer hierarchy (models, business logic, view/controller logic, display logic, etc.) of your application. This has not to be very clear cut architecture but rather should help you think about the various parts of your application and help you better categorize your code. If something grossly violates this hierarchy, change the offending code. Move the code around, recode it at another place, etc. At the same time adjust the rest of your application to use this code instead of the old one. Throw the old one away if not used anymore. Keep you APIs simple! Progress can be painstakingly slow, but should be worth it.

We are mainting a web application that is built on Classic ASP using VBScript as the primary language. We are in agreement that our backend (framework if you will) is out dated and doesn't provide us with the proper tools to move forward in a quick manner. We have pretty much embraced the current webMVC pattern that is all over the place, and cannot do it, in a reasonable manner, with the current technology. The big missing features are proper dispatching and templating with inheritance, amongst others. Currently there are two paths being discussed: Port the existing application to Classic ASP using JScript, which will allow us to hopefully go from there to .NET MSJscript without too much trouble, and eventually end up on the .NET platform (preferably the MVC stuff will be done by then, ASP.NET isn't much better than were we are on now, in our opinions). This has been argued as the safer path with less risk than the next option, albeit it might take slightly longer. Completely rewrite the application using some other technology, right now the leader of the pack is Python WSGI with a custom framework, ORM, and a good templating solution. There is wiggle room here for even django and other pre-built solutions. This method would hopefully be the quickest solution, as we would probably run a beta beside the actual product, but it does have the potential for a big waste of time if we can't/don't get it right. This does not mean that our logic is gone, as what we have built over the years is fairly stable, as noted just difficult to deal with. It is built on SQL Server 2005 with heavy use of stored procedures and published on IIS 6, just for a little more background. Now, the question. Has anyone taken either of the two paths above? If so, was it successful, how could it have been better, etc. We aren't looking to deviate much from doing one of those two things, but some suggestions or other solutions would potentially be helpful.

If it is decided that our system needs an overhaul, what is the best way to go about it?

2008-09-17T20:48:00.000

python,asp-classic,vbscript

Don't try and go 2.0 ( more features then currently exists or scheduled) instead build your new platform with the intent of resolving the current issues with the code base (maintainability/speed/wtf) and go from there.

We are mainting a web application that is built on Classic ASP using VBScript as the primary language. We are in agreement that our backend (framework if you will) is out dated and doesn't provide us with the proper tools to move forward in a quick manner. We have pretty much embraced the current webMVC pattern that is all over the place, and cannot do it, in a reasonable manner, with the current technology. The big missing features are proper dispatching and templating with inheritance, amongst others. Currently there are two paths being discussed: Port the existing application to Classic ASP using JScript, which will allow us to hopefully go from there to .NET MSJscript without too much trouble, and eventually end up on the .NET platform (preferably the MVC stuff will be done by then, ASP.NET isn't much better than were we are on now, in our opinions). This has been argued as the safer path with less risk than the next option, albeit it might take slightly longer. Completely rewrite the application using some other technology, right now the leader of the pack is Python WSGI with a custom framework, ORM, and a good templating solution. There is wiggle room here for even django and other pre-built solutions. This method would hopefully be the quickest solution, as we would probably run a beta beside the actual product, but it does have the potential for a big waste of time if we can't/don't get it right. This does not mean that our logic is gone, as what we have built over the years is fairly stable, as noted just difficult to deal with. It is built on SQL Server 2005 with heavy use of stored procedures and published on IIS 6, just for a little more background. Now, the question. Has anyone taken either of the two paths above? If so, was it successful, how could it have been better, etc. We aren't looking to deviate much from doing one of those two things, but some suggestions or other solutions would potentially be helpful.

If it is decided that our system needs an overhaul, what is the best way to go about it?

2008-09-17T20:48:00.000

python,asp-classic,vbscript

Whatever you do, see if you can manage to follow a plan where you do not have to port the application all in one big bang. It is tempting to throw it all away and start from scratch, but if you can manage to do it gradually the mistakes you do will not cost so much and cause so much panic.

We are mainting a web application that is built on Classic ASP using VBScript as the primary language. We are in agreement that our backend (framework if you will) is out dated and doesn't provide us with the proper tools to move forward in a quick manner. We have pretty much embraced the current webMVC pattern that is all over the place, and cannot do it, in a reasonable manner, with the current technology. The big missing features are proper dispatching and templating with inheritance, amongst others. Currently there are two paths being discussed: Port the existing application to Classic ASP using JScript, which will allow us to hopefully go from there to .NET MSJscript without too much trouble, and eventually end up on the .NET platform (preferably the MVC stuff will be done by then, ASP.NET isn't much better than were we are on now, in our opinions). This has been argued as the safer path with less risk than the next option, albeit it might take slightly longer. Completely rewrite the application using some other technology, right now the leader of the pack is Python WSGI with a custom framework, ORM, and a good templating solution. There is wiggle room here for even django and other pre-built solutions. This method would hopefully be the quickest solution, as we would probably run a beta beside the actual product, but it does have the potential for a big waste of time if we can't/don't get it right. This does not mean that our logic is gone, as what we have built over the years is fairly stable, as noted just difficult to deal with. It is built on SQL Server 2005 with heavy use of stored procedures and published on IIS 6, just for a little more background. Now, the question. Has anyone taken either of the two paths above? If so, was it successful, how could it have been better, etc. We aren't looking to deviate much from doing one of those two things, but some suggestions or other solutions would potentially be helpful.

If it is decided that our system needs an overhaul, what is the best way to go about it?

2008-09-17T20:48:00.000

python,asp-classic,vbscript

I agree with Michael Pryor and Joel that it's almost always a better idea to continue evolving your existing code base rather than re-writing from scratch. There are typically opportunities to just re-write or re-factor certain components for performance or flexibility.

We are mainting a web application that is built on Classic ASP using VBScript as the primary language. We are in agreement that our backend (framework if you will) is out dated and doesn't provide us with the proper tools to move forward in a quick manner. We have pretty much embraced the current webMVC pattern that is all over the place, and cannot do it, in a reasonable manner, with the current technology. The big missing features are proper dispatching and templating with inheritance, amongst others. Currently there are two paths being discussed: Port the existing application to Classic ASP using JScript, which will allow us to hopefully go from there to .NET MSJscript without too much trouble, and eventually end up on the .NET platform (preferably the MVC stuff will be done by then, ASP.NET isn't much better than were we are on now, in our opinions). This has been argued as the safer path with less risk than the next option, albeit it might take slightly longer. Completely rewrite the application using some other technology, right now the leader of the pack is Python WSGI with a custom framework, ORM, and a good templating solution. There is wiggle room here for even django and other pre-built solutions. This method would hopefully be the quickest solution, as we would probably run a beta beside the actual product, but it does have the potential for a big waste of time if we can't/don't get it right. This does not mean that our logic is gone, as what we have built over the years is fairly stable, as noted just difficult to deal with. It is built on SQL Server 2005 with heavy use of stored procedures and published on IIS 6, just for a little more background. Now, the question. Has anyone taken either of the two paths above? If so, was it successful, how could it have been better, etc. We aren't looking to deviate much from doing one of those two things, but some suggestions or other solutions would potentially be helpful.

If it is decided that our system needs an overhaul, what is the best way to go about it?

2008-09-17T20:48:00.000

python,asp-classic,vbscript

Use this as an opportunity to remove unused features! Definitely go with the new language. Call it 2.0. It will be a lot less work to rebuild the 80% of it that you really need. Start by wiping your brain clean of the whole application. Sit down with a list of its overall goals, then decide which features are needed based on which ones are used. Then redesign it with those features in mind, and build. (I love to delete code.)

We are mainting a web application that is built on Classic ASP using VBScript as the primary language. We are in agreement that our backend (framework if you will) is out dated and doesn't provide us with the proper tools to move forward in a quick manner. We have pretty much embraced the current webMVC pattern that is all over the place, and cannot do it, in a reasonable manner, with the current technology. The big missing features are proper dispatching and templating with inheritance, amongst others. Currently there are two paths being discussed: Port the existing application to Classic ASP using JScript, which will allow us to hopefully go from there to .NET MSJscript without too much trouble, and eventually end up on the .NET platform (preferably the MVC stuff will be done by then, ASP.NET isn't much better than were we are on now, in our opinions). This has been argued as the safer path with less risk than the next option, albeit it might take slightly longer. Completely rewrite the application using some other technology, right now the leader of the pack is Python WSGI with a custom framework, ORM, and a good templating solution. There is wiggle room here for even django and other pre-built solutions. This method would hopefully be the quickest solution, as we would probably run a beta beside the actual product, but it does have the potential for a big waste of time if we can't/don't get it right. This does not mean that our logic is gone, as what we have built over the years is fairly stable, as noted just difficult to deal with. It is built on SQL Server 2005 with heavy use of stored procedures and published on IIS 6, just for a little more background. Now, the question. Has anyone taken either of the two paths above? If so, was it successful, how could it have been better, etc. We aren't looking to deviate much from doing one of those two things, but some suggestions or other solutions would potentially be helpful.

If it is decided that our system needs an overhaul, what is the best way to go about it?

2008-09-17T20:48:00.000

python,asp-classic,vbscript

It works out better than you'd believe. Recently I did a large reverse-engineering job on a hideous old collection of C code. Function by function I reallocated the features that were still relevant into classes, wrote unit tests for the classes, and built up what looked like a replacement application. It had some of the original "logic flow" through the classes, and some classes were poorly designed [Mostly this was because of a subset of the global variables that was too hard to tease apart.] It passed unit tests at the class level and at the overall application level. The legacy source was mostly used as a kind of "specification in C" to ferret out the really obscure business rules. Last year, I wrote a project plan for replacing 30-year old COBOL. The customer was leaning toward Java. I prototyped the revised data model in Python using Django as part of the planning effort. I could demo the core transactions before I was done planning. Note: It was quicker to build a the model and admin interface in Django than to plan the project as a whole. Because of the "we need to use Java" mentality, the resulting project will be larger and more expensive than finishing the Django demo. With no real value to balance that cost. Also, I did the same basic "prototype in Django" for a VB desktop application that needed to become a web application. I built the model in Django, loaded legacy data, and was up and running in a few weeks. I used that working prototype to specify the rest of the conversion effort. Note: I had a working Django implementation (model and admin pages only) that I used to plan the rest of the effort. The best part about doing this kind of prototyping in Django is that you can mess around with the model, unit tests and admin pages until you get it right. Once the model's right, you can spend the rest of your time fiddling around with the user interface until everyone's happy.

We are mainting a web application that is built on Classic ASP using VBScript as the primary language. We are in agreement that our backend (framework if you will) is out dated and doesn't provide us with the proper tools to move forward in a quick manner. We have pretty much embraced the current webMVC pattern that is all over the place, and cannot do it, in a reasonable manner, with the current technology. The big missing features are proper dispatching and templating with inheritance, amongst others. Currently there are two paths being discussed: Port the existing application to Classic ASP using JScript, which will allow us to hopefully go from there to .NET MSJscript without too much trouble, and eventually end up on the .NET platform (preferably the MVC stuff will be done by then, ASP.NET isn't much better than were we are on now, in our opinions). This has been argued as the safer path with less risk than the next option, albeit it might take slightly longer. Completely rewrite the application using some other technology, right now the leader of the pack is Python WSGI with a custom framework, ORM, and a good templating solution. There is wiggle room here for even django and other pre-built solutions. This method would hopefully be the quickest solution, as we would probably run a beta beside the actual product, but it does have the potential for a big waste of time if we can't/don't get it right. This does not mean that our logic is gone, as what we have built over the years is fairly stable, as noted just difficult to deal with. It is built on SQL Server 2005 with heavy use of stored procedures and published on IIS 6, just for a little more background. Now, the question. Has anyone taken either of the two paths above? If so, was it successful, how could it have been better, etc. We aren't looking to deviate much from doing one of those two things, but some suggestions or other solutions would potentially be helpful.

If it is decided that our system needs an overhaul, what is the best way to go about it?

2008-09-17T20:48:00.000

python,asp-classic,vbscript

I would not recommend JScript as that is definitely the road less traveled. ASP.NET MVC is rapidly maturing, and I think that you could begin a migration to it, simultaneously ramping up on the ASP.NET MVC framework as its finalization comes through. Another option would be to use something like ASP.NET w/Subsonic or NHibernate.

We are mainting a web application that is built on Classic ASP using VBScript as the primary language. We are in agreement that our backend (framework if you will) is out dated and doesn't provide us with the proper tools to move forward in a quick manner. We have pretty much embraced the current webMVC pattern that is all over the place, and cannot do it, in a reasonable manner, with the current technology. The big missing features are proper dispatching and templating with inheritance, amongst others. Currently there are two paths being discussed: Port the existing application to Classic ASP using JScript, which will allow us to hopefully go from there to .NET MSJscript without too much trouble, and eventually end up on the .NET platform (preferably the MVC stuff will be done by then, ASP.NET isn't much better than were we are on now, in our opinions). This has been argued as the safer path with less risk than the next option, albeit it might take slightly longer. Completely rewrite the application using some other technology, right now the leader of the pack is Python WSGI with a custom framework, ORM, and a good templating solution. There is wiggle room here for even django and other pre-built solutions. This method would hopefully be the quickest solution, as we would probably run a beta beside the actual product, but it does have the potential for a big waste of time if we can't/don't get it right. This does not mean that our logic is gone, as what we have built over the years is fairly stable, as noted just difficult to deal with. It is built on SQL Server 2005 with heavy use of stored procedures and published on IIS 6, just for a little more background. Now, the question. Has anyone taken either of the two paths above? If so, was it successful, how could it have been better, etc. We aren't looking to deviate much from doing one of those two things, but some suggestions or other solutions would potentially be helpful.

If it is decided that our system needs an overhaul, what is the best way to go about it?

2008-09-17T23:17:00.000

python,string,list,split

s = "2+24*48/32" p = re.compile(r'(\W+)') p.split(s)

If I have this string: 2+24*48/32 what is the most efficient approach for creating this list: ['2', '+', '24', '*', '48', '/', '32']

How do I split a string into a list?

2008-09-17T23:17:00.000

python,string,list,split

This doesn't answer the question exactly, but I believe it solves what you're trying to achieve. I would add it as a comment, but I don't have permission to do so yet. I personally would take advantage of Python's maths functionality directly with exec: expression = "2+24*48/32" exec "result = " + expression print result 38

If I have this string: 2+24*48/32 what is the most efficient approach for creating this list: ['2', '+', '24', '*', '48', '/', '32']

How do I split a string into a list?

2008-09-18T01:35:00.000

python,shell,terminal,subprocess,command

os.system does not allow you to store results, so if you want to store results in some list or something, a subprocess.call works.

How do I call an external command within Python as if I'd typed it in a shell or command prompt?

How do I execute a program or call a system command?

2008-09-18T01:35:00.000

python,shell,terminal,subprocess,command

subprocess.check_call is convenient if you don't want to test return values. It throws an exception on any error.

How do I call an external command within Python as if I'd typed it in a shell or command prompt?

How do I execute a program or call a system command?

2008-09-18T01:35:00.000

python,shell,terminal,subprocess,command

There is another difference here which is not mentioned previously. subprocess.Popen executes the <command> as a subprocess. In my case, I need to execute file <a> which needs to communicate with another program, <b>. I tried subprocess, and execution was successful. However <b> could not communicate with <a>. Everything is normal when I run both from the terminal. One more: (NOTE: kwrite behaves different from other applications. If you try the below with Firefox, the results will not be the same.) If you try os.system("kwrite"), program flow freezes until the user closes kwrite. To overcome that I tried instead os.system(konsole -e kwrite). This time program continued to flow, but kwrite became the subprocess of the console. Anyone runs the kwrite not being a subprocess (i.e. in the system monitor it must appear at the leftmost edge of the tree).

How do I call an external command within Python as if I'd typed it in a shell or command prompt?

How do I execute a program or call a system command?

2008-09-18T04:04:00.000

python,regex,string

You could always use a list comprehension and check the results with all, it would be a little less resource intensive than using a regex: all([c in string.letters + string.digits + ["_", "-"] for c in mystring])

I know how to do this if I iterate through all of the characters in the string but I am looking for a more elegant method.

How do I verify that a string only contains letters, numbers, underscores and dashes?

2008-09-18T09:29:00.000

python,unicode,string,cgi,python-3.x

Logically a lot of things like MIME-encoded mail messages, URLs, XML documents, and so on should be returned as bytes not strings. This could cause some consternation as the libraries start to be nailed down for Python 3 and people discover that they have to be more aware of the bytes/string conversions than they were for str/unicode ...

I'm a little confused about how the standard library will behave now that Python (from 3.0) is unicode-based. Will modules such as CGI and urllib use unicode strings or will they use the new 'bytes' type and just provide encoded data?

Will everything in the standard library treat strings as unicode in Python 3.0?

2008-09-18T12:02:00.000

c#,java,python,file-format,quicken

QDF is proprietary and not really meant for reading other than my Quicken, probably for a reason as it is messy. I would recommend finding a way to export the qdf into an OFX (Open Financial Exchange) or qif file. I have done some financial and quickbooks automation and I did something similar. The problem is if you don't export to an exchange format, each version differs and strange things happen for many conditions that since they aren't documented (QDF) it becomes a bad situation for the programmer. OFX is what allows online banking, brokerages and apps like mint.com securely get financial data. It is a standard and consistent. Finding a way to this is much better if at all possible.

Looking for an open source library, for C++, Java, C# or Python, for reading the data from Quicken .qdf files. @Swati: Quicken .qif format is for transfer only and is not kept up to date by the application like the .qdf file is.

Reading quicken data files

2008-09-18T12:51:00.000

python

The Python Cookbook is absolutely essential if you want to master idiomatic Python. Besides, that's the book that made me fall in love with the language.

I've gotten to grips with the basics of Python and I've got a small holiday which I want to use some of to learn a little more Python. The problem is that I have no idea what to learn or where to start. I'm primarily web development but in this case I don't know how much difference it will make.

Python, beyond the basics

2008-09-18T12:51:00.000

python

Search "Alex Martelli", "Alex Martelli patterns" and "Thomas Wouters" on Google video. There's plenty of interesting talks on advanced Python, design patterns in Python, and so on.

I've gotten to grips with the basics of Python and I've got a small holiday which I want to use some of to learn a little more Python. The problem is that I have no idea what to learn or where to start. I'm primarily web development but in this case I don't know how much difference it will make.

Python, beyond the basics

2008-09-18T12:51:00.000

python

I'd suggest writing a non-trivial webapp using either Django or Pylons, something that does some number crunching. No better way to learn a new language than commiting yourself to a problem and learning as you go!

I've gotten to grips with the basics of Python and I've got a small holiday which I want to use some of to learn a little more Python. The problem is that I have no idea what to learn or where to start. I'm primarily web development but in this case I don't know how much difference it will make.

Python, beyond the basics

2008-09-18T14:16:00.000

python,multithreading,time,sleep,python-internals

Just the thread.

In Python for *nix, does time.sleep() block the thread or the process?

time.sleep -- sleeps thread or process?

2008-09-18T14:16:00.000

python,multithreading,time,sleep,python-internals

Only the thread unless your process has a single thread.

In Python for *nix, does time.sleep() block the thread or the process?

time.sleep -- sleeps thread or process?

2008-09-18T14:16:00.000

python,multithreading,time,sleep,python-internals

The thread will block, but the process is still alive. In a single threaded application, this means everything is blocked while you sleep. In a multithreaded application, only the thread you explicitly 'sleep' will block and the other threads still run within the process.

In Python for *nix, does time.sleep() block the thread or the process?

time.sleep -- sleeps thread or process?

2008-09-18T14:16:00.000

python,multithreading,time,sleep,python-internals

it blocks a thread if it is executed in the same thread not if it is executed from the main code

In Python for *nix, does time.sleep() block the thread or the process?

time.sleep -- sleeps thread or process?

2008-09-18T14:16:00.000

python,multithreading,time,sleep,python-internals

Process is not runnable by itself. In regard to execution, process is just a container for threads. Meaning you can't pause the process at all. It is simply not applicable to process.

In Python for *nix, does time.sleep() block the thread or the process?

time.sleep -- sleeps thread or process?

2008-09-18T15:42:00.000

python,xml,streaming

xml.etree.cElementTree, included in the default distribution of CPython since 2.5. Lightning fast for both reading and writing XML.

Basically, something similar to System.Xml.XmlWriter - A streaming XML Writer that doesn't incur much of a memory overhead. So that rules out xml.dom and xml.dom.minidom. Suggestions?

What's the easiest non-memory intensive way to output XML from Python?

2008-09-18T16:03:00.000

python,user-interface,api

WX has issues on the Mac. I had a look here, as I want to get an event driven GUI API to do some stuff in Python. I have wx installed on my mac as part of MatPlotLib, but it does not work properly. It wont take in put from the keyboard. I have installed this three times on three different Mac operating systems, and though it worked the first time, the other two times I had this issue. This version I am using with Enthought's distribution, so no installation was necessary. When I have installed it separately, there were so many dependent installations, that it was a trial to install. From what I have read here, I will give Tkinter a go, as this needs to be simple and cross platform, but I thought I would just share the above with you. I like the Mac OS for a number of different reasons, but python tools install far easier on Windows (and probably other Linux). I just thought I would give a Mac perspective here.

Simple question: What Python GUI API's are out there and what are the advantages of any given API? I'm not looking for a religious war here, I'm just wanting to get a good handle on all that is out there in terms of Python GUI APIs.

What Python GUI APIs Are Out There?

2008-09-18T16:03:00.000

python,user-interface,api

Most python GUI APIs will be wrappers around the most common c/c++ GUI APIs. You've got a python wrapper for gtk, a python wrapper for qt, a python wrapper for .NET, etc etc. So really it depends on what your needs are. If you are looking for the easiest way to draw native-looking widgets on Linux, Mac, and Windows, then go with wxPython (python wrapper for WX Widgets). If cross-platform isn't one of your needs though, other libraries might be more useful.

Simple question: What Python GUI API's are out there and what are the advantages of any given API? I'm not looking for a religious war here, I'm just wanting to get a good handle on all that is out there in terms of Python GUI APIs.

What Python GUI APIs Are Out There?

2008-09-18T16:03:00.000

python,user-interface,api

I like wxPython or Tk. Tk comes with the standard Python distribution so you don't need install anything else. wxPython (wxWigets) seems much more powerful and looks a lot nicer. It also works well cross-platform (though not perfectly because it uses different underlying graphic API's on diff system types)

Simple question: What Python GUI API's are out there and what are the advantages of any given API? I'm not looking for a religious war here, I'm just wanting to get a good handle on all that is out there in terms of Python GUI APIs.

What Python GUI APIs Are Out There?

2008-09-18T16:03:00.000

python,user-interface,api

Instead of posting a list of your options I will give my humble opinion: I am in love with wxPython. I have used Qt in C++ and Tk way back in the Tcl days but what really makes me like wxPython is the demo that you get with it. In the demo you can browse through all the different widgets frames etc that are part of the framework see the source code and actually see how it looks while it is running. I had some problems getting the Linux version build and installed but now that I have it available I use it all the time. I have used wxPython for small data analysis applications and I have written several internal tools related to comparing test results, merging source code etc.

Simple question: What Python GUI API's are out there and what are the advantages of any given API? I'm not looking for a religious war here, I'm just wanting to get a good handle on all that is out there in terms of Python GUI APIs.

What Python GUI APIs Are Out There?

2008-09-18T16:03:00.000

python,user-interface,api

I prefer PyGTK, because I am a GNOME guy. Using PyGTK feels very pythonic to me. The code organization feels consistent, the documentation is clean and thorough, and it's a very easy toolkit to get used to (except for maybe Treeviews).

Simple question: What Python GUI API's are out there and what are the advantages of any given API? I'm not looking for a religious war here, I'm just wanting to get a good handle on all that is out there in terms of Python GUI APIs.

What Python GUI APIs Are Out There?

2008-09-18T16:03:00.000

python,user-interface,api

wxPython, and I'm assuming PyGTK also, can use wxGlade to help you design most UIs you will create. That is a big plus. You don't have to learn how to hand-code the GUI until you're ready. I made several GUI programs straight from wxGlade before I was comfortable enough in how wxPython worked to take a shot at hand-coding. PyQt has a similar graphic layout device but I've never had good luck getting PyQt to compile correctly. There was also a lack of tutorials and documentation that showed how to create the final Python code; many of the documents I found referred to the C++ version of Qt. Tkinter is good for quick and dirty programs but, realistically, if you use wxGlade it may be faster to make the program with wxPython. At a minimum, you can use wxGlade to show a visual representation of the program to a client rather than take the time to hand-code the "dummy" program.

Simple question: What Python GUI API's are out there and what are the advantages of any given API? I'm not looking for a religious war here, I'm just wanting to get a good handle on all that is out there in terms of Python GUI APIs.

What Python GUI APIs Are Out There?

2008-09-18T16:03:00.000

python,user-interface,api

There are python-specific gui-api such as kivy (successor or pymt), pygui (based on pyrex), pyui and nufox, which do not compare with the more robust toolkits like wxpython, pyqt, pygtk and tkinter. They are just extra optional tools. The only thing unique about them is these are python-specific api, just like there are prima (perl-specific api) and shoes (ruby-specific api). It helps us to understand that when tk is tcl-based port of api (and others are c and c++ based), then these api are specifically done for the respective three scripting languages. Out of these, kivy is the most robust, whereas pygui's coding is mentioned to be very python-like, pyui is least robust but worth trying and all of these should be portable wherever python or python-based application goes. Then there is jpype which is a toolkit usable with jython and pydev, and which is actually java's japi customized under python/jython-interface.

Simple question: What Python GUI API's are out there and what are the advantages of any given API? I'm not looking for a religious war here, I'm just wanting to get a good handle on all that is out there in terms of Python GUI APIs.

What Python GUI APIs Are Out There?

2008-09-18T16:03:00.000

python,user-interface,api

An easy to use GUI creator for Python doesn't exist. That's amazing really considering small scripting languages like AutoIt and AutoHotkey have great and very simple to use GUI makers. Come on, Python followers, can't you do better?

Simple question: What Python GUI API's are out there and what are the advantages of any given API? I'm not looking for a religious war here, I'm just wanting to get a good handle on all that is out there in terms of Python GUI APIs.

What Python GUI APIs Are Out There?

2008-09-18T22:09:00.000

python,shell,interpreter,komodo

I use Komodo Edit, which might be a little less sophisticated than full Komodo. I create a "New Command" with %(python) -i %f as the text of the command. I have this run in a "New Console". I usually have the starting directory as %p, the top of the project directory. The -i option runs the file and drops into interactive Python.

When using PyWin I can easily load a python file into a fresh interactive shell and I find this quite handy for prototyping and other exploratory tasks. I would like to use Komodo as my python editor, but I haven't found a replacement for PyWin's ability to restart the shell and reload the current module. How can I do this in Komodo? It is also very important to me that when I reload I get a fresh shell. I would prefer it if my previous interactions are in the shell history, but it is more important to me that the memory be isolated from the previous versions and attempts.

How to load a python module into a fresh interactive shell in Komodo?

2008-09-19T06:10:00.000

python,oop,metaclass,python-class,python-datamodel

In Python, a metaclass is a subclass of a subclass that determines how a subclass behaves. A class is an instance of another metaclass. In Python, a class specifies how the class's instance will behave. Since metaclasses are in charge of class generation, you can write your own custom metaclasses to change how classes are created by performing additional actions or injecting code. Custom metaclasses aren't always important, but they can be.

What are metaclasses? What are they used for?

What are metaclasses in Python?

2008-09-19T06:10:00.000

python,oop,metaclass,python-class,python-datamodel

I saw an interesting use case for metaclasses in a package called classutilities. It checks if all class variables are in upper case format (it is convenient to have unified logic for configuration classes), and checks if there are no instance level methods in class. Another interesting example for metaclases was deactivation of unittests based on complex conditions (checking values of multiple environmental variables).

What are metaclasses? What are they used for?

What are metaclasses in Python?

2008-09-19T06:10:00.000

python,oop,metaclass,python-class,python-datamodel

In object-oriented programming, a metaclass is a class whose instances are classes. Just as an ordinary class defines the behavior of certain objects, a metaclass defines the behavior of certain class and their instances The term metaclass simply means something used to create classes. In other words, it is the class of a class. The metaclass is used to create the class so like the object being an instance of a class, a class is an instance of a metaclass. In python classes are also considered objects.

What are metaclasses? What are they used for?

What are metaclasses in Python?

2008-09-19T06:10:00.000

python,oop,metaclass,python-class,python-datamodel

A class, in Python, is an object, and just like any other object, it is an instance of "something". This "something" is what is termed as a Metaclass. This metaclass is a special type of class that creates other class's objects. Hence, metaclass is responsible for making new classes. This allows the programmer to customize the way classes are generated. To create a metaclass, overriding of new() and init() methods is usually done. new() can be overridden to change the way objects are created, while init() can be overridden to change the way of initializing the object. Metaclass can be created by a number of ways. One of the ways is to use type() function. type() function, when called with 3 parameters, creates a metaclass. The parameters are :- Class Name Tuple having base classes inherited by class A dictionary having all class methods and class variables Another way of creating a metaclass comprises of 'metaclass' keyword. Define the metaclass as a simple class. In the parameters of inherited class, pass metaclass=metaclass_name Metaclass can be specifically used in the following situations :- when a particular effect has to be applied to all the subclasses Automatic change of class (on creation) is required By API developers

What are metaclasses? What are they used for?

What are metaclasses in Python?

2008-09-19T12:47:00.000

python,algorithm,diff

I think Jeremy has hit the nail on the head - if you just want to detect if files are different, a hash algorithm like MD5 or SHA1 is a good way to go. Linus Torvalds' Git source control software uses SHA1 hashing in just this way - to check when files have been modified.

I need to write a module to detect similar documents. I have read many papers of fingerprints of documents techniques and others, but I do not know how to write code or implement such a solution. The algorithm should work for Chinese, Japanese, English and German language or be language independent. How can I accomplish this?

Algorithm to detect similar documents in python script