| === kinoucho` is now known as kinouchou | |
| === jibel_ is now known as jibel | |
| [22:47] <MrChrisDruif> phillw; which theme of Xubuntu was good for accessibility? And what made it so good? | |
| [22:53] <phillw> MrChrisDruif: you, rafael and charlie-tca would need to chat about that. The kubuntu graphics guy is a really nice guy and it does seem that the two kindred spirits get on really well with each other. | |
| [22:54] <MrChrisDruif> phillw; It seems Rafael isn't much on IRC....and not very cooperative...I've had some off mailing-list conversation with him... | |
| [22:54] <MrChrisDruif> He works better alone I would say :) | |
| [22:55] <phillw> the design work for the kubuntu area is breathtaking. You lads wanting to learn web-site stuff could learn SO much from the kubuntu people. | |
| [22:55] <maco> the kubuntu graphics guy = who? | |
| [22:55] <maco> roman used to do the login screens to match the wallpaper...is that who you mean? | |
| [22:56] <MrChrisDruif> Don't you mean ochosi? | |
| [22:56] <maco> i dont know who ochosi is | |
| [22:57] <maco> not a name ive seen in #kubuntu-devel at all | |
| [22:57] <MrChrisDruif> I think he made blue- and graybird | |
| [22:57] <MrChrisDruif> #shimmer is for theming right? | |
| [22:57] <maco> i dont know what you're talking about now | |
| [22:58] <maco> is that an upstream channel or something? | |
| [22:58] <MrChrisDruif> Ow...kubuntu... | |
| [22:58] <MrChrisDruif> shimmer is from xubuntu | |
| [22:58] <maco> oh ok | |
| [22:58] <MrChrisDruif> xD | |
| [22:58] <MrChrisDruif> Sorry aboot that | |
| [22:59] <MrChrisDruif> phillw; So it was the theme from Kubuntu that is great...or that from Xubuntu? | |
| [22:59] * MrChrisDruif is getting confused :P | |
| [22:59] <phillw> it was, | |
| [23:00] <phillw> afaik, it was charlie-tca who said it was one of the kubuntu themes that he had spent a long time on getting sorted. | |
| [23:00] <MrChrisDruif> K? | |
| [23:00] <charlie-tca> except from an accessibility viewpoint, for poor visual ability, plasma is really hard on the eyes | |
| [23:00] <charlie-tca> phillw: xubuntu | |
| [23:00] <maco> even with a different plasma theme? | |
| [23:01] <charlie-tca> maco: I don't know how to change themes in Kubuntu | |
| [23:01] <MrChrisDruif> Aloha charlie-tca :) | |
| [23:01] <phillw> charlie-tca: so the theme is via xubuntu? | |
| [23:01] <charlie-tca> but that default is really hard to read | |
| [23:01] <charlie-tca> phillw: yes | |
| [23:01] <charlie-tca> the greybird theme is a good theme for most of us | |
| [23:01] <maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> workspace appearance -> desktop theme changes plasma's theme | |
| [23:01] <phillw> charlie-tca: soz, I thought you were a kubuntu person! | |
| [23:01] <maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> workspace appearnce -> window decorations for title bars | |
| [23:01] <MrChrisDruif> As you might have realized...I've taken it upon myself to make an accessibility theme for Lubuntu | |
| [23:02] <maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> application appearance for the window chrome | |
| [23:02] <charlie-tca> phillw: Xubuntu Project Lead | |
| [23:02] <charlie-tca> Kubuntu accessibility tester | |
| [23:02] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu accessibility tester | |
| [23:02] <MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca; So we're pretty good along the way with our accessibility theme already? | |
| [23:02] <phillw> charlie-tca: again my apoligies, I thougt it was kubuntu! | |
| [23:03] <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: you are? that's a good thing. | |
| [23:03] <charlie-tca> yeah, too much transparancies letting the background and fonts blend is not so easy to read | |
| [23:04] <phillw> charlie-tca: regardless of the tone of emails flying backwards and forwards. I assure accessibility that | |
| [23:04] <phillw> Lubuntu IS commited | |
| [23:04] <charlie-tca> I got that :-) | |
| [23:04] <MrChrisDruif> Well...if you can take a look at ozone? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Artwork/Incoming/Natty/Ozone Current theme in Natty | |
| [23:05] <charlie-tca> the only developer we got around is TheMuso, and he is usually really busy | |
| [23:05] <MrChrisDruif> To what are we committed phillw ? Or better put, to what not? :P | |
| [23:05] <MrChrisDruif> I don't see TheMuso say much indeed | |
| [23:06] <charlie-tca> I keep telling shimmer what blends too much, and ochosi made some serious efforts to get greybird where it should be usable by anyone. | |
| [23:06] <TheMuso> I lirk, but I am often busy as charlie-tca said. If people want my attention on IRC, they need to signal me via my nickname, then I respond. | |
| [23:06] <phillw> charlie-tca: I have chatted to TheMuso, hence his name being used when JM gave his opinion! - These devs do not pander to the electorate and wrap stuff in cotton wool - they say it as they see it. | |
| [23:07] <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: I like that | |
| [23:07] <MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca; Ozone you mean? | |
| [23:07] <charlie-tca> You might have some fine tuning on the white titles on the blue, but that is nice theme | |
| [23:07] <charlie-tca> yeah | |
| [23:08] <MrChrisDruif> phillw; Hear that? | |
| [23:08] <charlie-tca> phillw: unfortunately, so do I, so do I | |
| [23:08] <phillw> TheMuso: hopefully, as Lubuntu gets past the next hurdle, we may have a little more dev time to help eachother. | |
| [23:09] <TheMuso> phillw: Cool./ | |
| [23:09] <MrChrisDruif> So we'd only need to look into the white on blue lettering and we're pretty much a done deal charlie-tca ? | |
| [23:09] <maco> charlie-tca: im a developer... | |
| [23:09] <phillw> JM is certainly up for it, as are people from SII etc. | |
| [23:09] <maco> just not on canonical payroll like TheMuso ;) | |
| [23:09] <charlie-tca> phillw: I am sure you noticed I don't back down easily. I think Lubuntu has a niche to fill, and I really want it to succeed. | |
| [23:10] <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: from what I see there, yes. there will always be some tuning to work out, but for the most part, it looks good. | |
| [23:10] <charlie-tca> dam | |
| [23:10] <charlie-tca> phillw: I lied | |
| [23:11] <charlie-tca> maco is a developer too | |
| [23:11] <phillw> charlie-tca: Lubuntu will succeed, as for backing down? That is not required. Imagine if the only choice you had was Win, or N | |
| [23:11] <phillw> Mac? | |
| [23:11] <charlie-tca> probably some more around here | |
| [23:11] * MrChrisDruif checks it of his todo list | |
| [23:11] <charlie-tca> phillw: I agree | |
| [23:11] <phillw> withing the linux family we have hunders, possibly thousands of flavours. | |
| [23:11] <maco> im still pretty noob on a11y coding, but ive got the basics of ATK hinting sorted | |
| [23:11] <charlie-tca> and I am pretty sure lubuntu doesn't want to integrate orca as it is today, too | |
| [23:12] <MrChrisDruif> It's strength and it's weakness at the same time | |
| [23:12] <MrChrisDruif> I read something about a C or C++ implementation of Orca? | |
| [23:12] <phillw> charlie-tca: from what I understand, it pulls in gnome and all its dependant relatives. This is not something we can do :( | |
| [23:12] <charlie-tca> experience with orca in Xubuntu says it ain't lightweight by any means | |
| [23:12] <MrChrisDruif> Not only good for Lubuntu /me thinks | |
| [23:12] <TheMuso> MrChrisDruif: Not confirmed, parts of orca may be ported to C to improve performance. | |
| [23:13] <charlie-tca> yes, someone is working towards something in C, I think | |
| [23:13] <TheMuso> Not necessarily, it depends on whether its worth the porting, i.e whether performance is that much better. | |
| [23:13] <charlie-tca> phillw: given a choice between orca and none, choose none for this cycle. | |
| [23:13] <MrChrisDruif> That's what I read as well TheMuso | |
| [23:13] <AlanBell> I am not sure what is slow about orca | |
| [23:14] <charlie-tca> AlanBell: I don't see it as slow, but I don't count it as light either. | |
| [23:14] <phillw> charlie-tca: okies, as you all know. we are pretty tight on what we can add to Lubuntu without breaking our rules on what it must run on. | |
| [23:15] <charlie-tca> yup | |
| [23:15] <charlie-tca> I would like to see dasher working in everything, but at least try for Onboard Keyboard, it does help, at least. | |
| [23:15] <phillw> AlanBell: it is down to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#System requirements | |
| [23:16] <AlanBell> oh, lubuntu stuff | |
| [23:16] <phillw> AlanBell: that is wat we are discussing :) | |
| [23:16] <AlanBell> but that is a we won't use gnome thing rather than a performance thing | |
| [23:16] <MrChrisDruif> s/ /%20 | |
| [23:17] <MrChrisDruif> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#System%20requirements | |
| [23:17] <charlie-tca> AlanBell: more of a "make it work in the 128MB ram" thing, I think | |
| [23:17] <phillw> AlanBell: we will use anything that keeps us in that requirements. Remember Apollo 13? -- There is a red line in AMPS to get it to work, we have the same to do. | |
| [23:18] <AlanBell> yeah, apollo 13 doesn't fly any more | |
| [23:18] <phillw> If we cannot, we cannot - but that is no excuse for not trying. | |
| [23:19] <AlanBell> but hey, it sounds like a fun project | |
| [23:19] <charlie-tca> I like the idea of a very lightweight ubuntu derivative. | |
| [23:20] <charlie-tca> I have sent several people to try it, when they compain about slow systems. | |
| [23:20] <AlanBell> I give people more ram | |
| [23:20] <phillw> AlanBell: ooh, goodie, I know several thousand people waiting for such gifts :P | |
| [23:20] <MrChrisDruif> RAM != faster system ;) | |
| [23:21] <AlanBell> anyhow, does lubuntu expose stuff to accercciser? | |
| [23:22] <MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; What? | |
| [23:22] <AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: lack of ram is almost always the only performance problem | |
| [23:22] <phillw> AlanBell: a lot of people with accessibilty issues are in the lower quadrant of income. they cannot afford the 'latest' computer. My interest in this also rolls over to the ubntu-uk thread of school computers. | |
| [23:23] <AlanBell> accerciser shows you what information is available over at-spi | |
| [23:23] <MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; I meant the second sentence..."does lubuntu expose stuff to accercciser?" | |
| [23:23] <AlanBell> phillw: yeah, and the stuff being pushed out by remploy is perfect for gnome, if it had more ram, so I am looking at how to up their spec | |
| [23:24] <phillw> Back in 10.04 alpha2 we had a teacher from india come on and say he had managed to keep his little school lab going, on a blade server, of all things, because lubuntu used 30% less resources than the gnome one. Blade servers are not really designed with serving multiple dumb terminals, but that guy did it. | |
| [23:25] <phillw> Give them the tools, they will make what they need. | |
| [23:30] <phillw> charlie-tca: by the way, once JM has a chance, he is going to load up LightDM and compare resource usage to lxdm. As I said, I do recall some chatter about lightDM, but I'd rather have some one run some stats on them both. | |
| [23:30] <charlie-tca> Great! | |
| [23:31] <charlie-tca> In xubuntu, it works quite nicely, and doesn't have near the gnome dependencies of GDM | |
| [23:31] <charlie-tca> phillw: let JM know it crashes at login right now, but does not seem to block anything. | |
| [23:31] <phillw> charlie-tca: as we are virtually gnome free, lxdm is pretty lean :) | |
| [23:32] <charlie-tca> I just keep getting a apport crash in oneiric from it | |
| [23:32] <phillw> dropping HAL (whatever that is :P ) has taken a little time also | |
| [23:32] <charlie-tca> It is really easy to theme too | |
| [23:33] <charlie-tca> Yes, HAL had to go away. It was the way most power stuff was managed. dbus has replaced it, but I understand very little other than HAL is "bad" now | |
| [23:35] <phillw> AlanBell: I have lost my begging list for second hand computers for F/OSS projects, could you or one of the ubuntu-uk people please resend it to [email protected] | |
| [23:35] <charlie-tca> I guess I better go make moinmoin desktop edition work with python greater than 2.6 now. | |
| [23:38] <MrChrisDruif> moinmoin desktop edition? So you can WYSIWYG it on your own pc? | |
| [23:38] <AlanBell> phillw: do you mean this? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2011-May/029581.html | |
| [23:44] <phillw> AlanBell: that's the one, thanks. | |
| [23:45] <AlanBell> http://www.ecycleonline.co.uk/choose-your-computer---ubuntu-12-c.asp | |
| [23:46] <AlanBell> talking to them about doubling the RAM on the ubuntu models so they are higher spec than the XP ones | |
| [23:47] <AlanBell> nothing wrong with the CPU but 256 is rather tight | |
| [23:47] <AlanBell> would like to put a gig on all of them tbh | |
| [23:48] <AlanBell> I have one of the Dell boxes in the pictures, works fine with a gig of ram running unity, single core 1.6Ghz processor | |
| [23:48] <AlanBell> and they are the UKs largest employer of people with disabilities apparently | |
| [23:52] <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: a short version of moinmoin, uses python 2.6 or less. It does not a full lamp installed | |
| [23:55] <phillw> AlanBell: when I was plant chemist (many, many moons ago) we used to make the foam seat tablets for Remploy to turn into office furniture. It really is a small world. I did read, also many years ago that they shut that Remploy factory down :( | |
| [23:55] <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: let's me plan pages out without using wiki.ubuntu.com for it. I just copy and paste when I build them. | |
| [23:55] <charlie-tca> http://moinmo.in/DesktopEdition | |
| [23:56] <AlanBell> wiki.ubuntu.com is actually likely to be somewhat fixed soonish | |
| [23:56] <charlie-tca> It just saves a lot of frustration doing it on my own computer first | |
| [23:57] <AlanBell> yeah, I understand totally | |
| [23:57] * charlie-tca been hearing wiki.ubuntu.com will be fixed soon for a l-o-n-g time | |
| [23:57] <AlanBell> http://wiki-test.ubuntu.com/Accessibility | |
| [23:57] <charlie-tca> besides, it keeps me from complaining too loudly to the website people. | |
| [23:58] <AlanBell> yeah, I have been pestering them for over a year, but now there is an actual running test instance of 1.9.1 with Xapian turned on and a getuser cache patch | |
| [23:58] <charlie-tca> That will help a lot! | |
| [23:58] <AlanBell> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs/GetSubscribersSlow | |
| [23:59] <charlie-tca> that is a nice page. Will we get it? | |
| [23:59] <AlanBell> http://wiki-test.ubuntu.com/SystemInfo actually running 1.9.2 | |
| [23:59] <charlie-tca> I got 1.9.3 running here, but have to use python2.6 for it to work | |