<commit_before><?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<akomaNtoso>
    <debate>
        <meta>
            <references>
                <TLCPerson href="/ontology/person/::/Interviewer" id="Interviewer" showAs="Interviewer"/>
                <TLCPerson href="/ontology/person/::/<NAME>" id="<NAME>" showAs="<NAME>"/>
            </references>
        </meta>
        <debateBody>
            <debateSection>
                <heading>
                    2019-11-23 Interview with DW Business
                </heading>
                <speech by="#Interviewer">
                    <p>
                        For five months now, people in Hong Kong have been protesting for democracy and against what they perceive as a growing influence by the mainland government from China. As an official from Taiwan – an island which Beijing considers a “breakaway territory” – how do you view these protests?
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        The breakaway was at the Neolithic Age, I believe.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        I think in Taiwan, when we’re looking at Hong Kong, we’re seeing the beginning of a new way of demonstration for liberal democracies that are what they call “be water” or “leaderless” movement.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        In our own Sunflower movement which I have participated, where we occupied the parliament for 21 days back in 2014, we started this way of coordinating a leaderless movement. By that time, it was more like 20 leaders; but in Hong Kong it’s now like 2000 leaders.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#Interviewer">
                    <p>
                        The protests there have grown more violent in the last period of time and there’s the chance that at some point Beijing says “we’ve had enough, we’re going to intervene with force.” How do you view this?
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        I don’t think that will happen on a international watch, when all around the world, liberal democracies are looking at it as something that must not happen.  For our part, the Taiwan universities have been offering a lot of exchange programs to give the students there a safe space to have a conversation with international media, precisely for this.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#Interviewer">
                    <p>
                        Now you’ve started writing computer code when you were a kid; you’ve been active as a hacker, as a computer hacker; now you’re the Digital Minister of Taiwan, and you’re calling for the reinvention of democracy. How’s it supposed to look like and how do you perceive your own role in it?
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        As a digital minister, my workspace is totally, radically transparent. All the meetings that I chair, the full transcript can be found on the Internet; it’s entirely published. By radically trusting people and making the state – and how the state works – transparent to the people, everybody can understand not only the why of policies, but also the why of policymaking: the context of policymaking. This is as opposed to other jurisdictions which make the citizen transparent to the state.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#Interviewer">
                    <p>
                        But is there more to it when it comes to digital reinvention of democracy than just providing a bunch of papers for that matter?
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        In Taiwan, what we’re doing is we’re bringing technologies to where people are, instead of asking people to come to technology. We have universal broadband as a human right: anywhere in Taiwan even on top of the mountain of Yushan – 4000 meters – you have 10 megabits per second and if you don’t, it’s my fault. It’s very affordable, 15 euros per month, so everybody can be their own press, their own youtuber everybody can just voice your opinions.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        That’s the foundation of liberal democracy. Because of universal broadband as a human right, were also opening up the entire participatory budget; participatory regulation; everything is on a single participation platform called Join.gov.tw that has more than 10 million active users, out of 23 million active residents in Taiwan.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#Interviewer">
                    <p>
                        Big tech companies have played a questionable role sometimes when it comes to democracy, being a platform where fake news can be spread, or where voters could be influenced. What sort of role do they need to play when it comes to reinventing democracy?<commit_msg>* typo<commit_after><?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<akomaNtoso>
    <debate>
        <meta>
            <references>
                <TLCPerson href="/ontology/person/::/Interviewer" id="Interviewer" showAs="Interviewer"/>
                <TLCPerson href="/ontology/person/::/<NAME>" id="<NAME>" showAs="<NAME>"/>
            </references>
        </meta>
        <debateBody>
            <debateSection>
                <heading>
                    2019-11-23 Interview with DW Business
                </heading>
                <speech by="#Interviewer">
                    <p>
                        For five months now, people in Hong Kong have been protesting for democracy and against what they perceive as a growing influence by the mainland government from China. As an official from Taiwan – an island which Beijing considers a “breakaway territory” – how do you view these protests?
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        The breakaway was at the Neolithic Age, I believe.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        I think in Taiwan, when we’re looking at Hong Kong, we’re seeing the beginning of a new way of demonstration for liberal democracies that are what they call “be water” or “leaderless” movement.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        In our own Sunflower movement which I have participated, where we occupied the parliament for 21 days back in 2014, we started this way of coordinating a leaderless movement. By that time, it was more like 20 leaders; but in Hong Kong it’s now like 2000 leaders.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#Interviewer">
                    <p>
                        The protests there have grown more violent in the last period of time and there’s the chance that at some point Beijing says “we’ve had enough, we’re going to intervene with force.” How do you view this?
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        I don’t think that will happen on a international watch, when all around the world, liberal democracies are looking at it as something that must not happen.  For our part, the Taiwan universities have been offering a lot of exchange programs to give the students there a safe space to have a conversation with international media, precisely for this.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#Interviewer">
                    <p>
                        Now you’ve started writing computer code when you were a kid; you’ve been active as a hacker, as a computer hacker; now you’re the Digital Minister of Taiwan, and you’re calling for the reinvention of democracy. How’s it supposed to look like and how do you perceive your own role in it?
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        As a digital minister, my workspace is totally, radically transparent. All the meetings that I chair, the full transcript can be found on the Internet; it’s entirely published. By radically trusting people and making the state – and how the state works – transparent to the people, everybody can understand not only the why of policies, but also the why of policymaking: the context of policymaking. This is as opposed to other jurisdictions which make the citizen transparent to the state.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#Interviewer">
                    <p>
                        But is there more to it when it comes to digital reinvention of democracy than just providing a bunch of papers for that matter?
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        In Taiwan, what we’re doing is we’re bringing technologies to where people are, instead of asking people to come to technology. We have universal broadband as a human right: anywhere in Taiwan even on top of the mountain of Yushan – 4000 meters – you have 10 megabits per second and if you don’t, it’s my fault. It’s very affordable, 15 euros per month, so everybody can be their own press, their own youtuber everybody can just voice your opinions.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#<NAME>">
                    <p>
                        That’s the foundation of liberal democracy. Because of universal broadband as a human right, we’re also opening up the entire participatory budget; participatory regulation; everything is on a single participation platform called Join.gov.tw that has more than 10 million active users, out of 23 million active residents in Taiwan.
                    </p>
                </speech>
                <speech by="#Interviewer">
                    <p>
                        Big tech companies have played a questionable role sometimes when it comes to democracy, being a platform where fake news can be spread, or where voters could be influenced. What sort of role do they need to play when it comes to reinventing democracy?
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