Discussion on the direction of the Elemental "community"
James009D
September 6, 2010 4:37:42 PM from Elemental Forums
Elemental used to be fun. And no, I'm not talking about the game. I still find the game fun and enjoyable and look forward to it's future.
Unfortunately, I'm talking about the forums and this community. Recently they've just de-evolved into a community of hostility, second guessing, and whining. This community used to be fun, collaborative, enjoyable, and friendly.
We also used to trust Stardock, the staff, and Brad. Frankly, I still do. Stardock was one of the ONLY companies who'd give you almost daily updates on what they're doing and the direction of their development. Today Brad tells us he's going to look at tweaking things and adding more systems for engine, he also shares with us that his favorite TV show is Avatar.
First thing we do is get defensive, jump all over him, and TELL him what to do. Now we've probably lost the ability to read up on the Dev Logs, Journals, and to hear about what the developers are doing with Elemental. Great!
That's not fun guys and it's going to ruin Elemental for everyone. Nobody wants to work on a game that isn't supported or encouraged by the community and where they can't find enjoyment in making it. I know Stardock is a business but it's also a personal project for Brad and, believe it or not, Brad is a human being.
If we ruin this for Brad then Elemental is just that, ruined. It doesn't do us any good if you post that you hate him or don't trust him. And, honestly, posting your ridiculously complex re-designs where they'd have to rebuild the game from the ground up are also unhelpful, try modding and you'll see why. If you REALLY don't like Elemental right now then just take a break. Go away for a while...
You angry kids need to back off. It's getting old and isn't for for those of us who want to support the game and enjoy the community we once had.
Some of you really don't understand what it's like in real life. You don't understand what it's like to work in the real world. You jump and attack any sort of authority because, "Hey, this is the internet and I have free speech!". Unfortunately, this is just showing your poor character and lack of experience. If you REALLY want Stardock to feel your hurt then return the product and don't buy another one, that'll hurt them in the pocketbook which hurts more then posting an angry rant about design on these forums.
I'm asking for some restraint, some compassion, and some better judgment. Each and every action you take has ramifications and consequences. Think before you act. Consider what you are saying and how you are saying it. Lastly, a little respect goes a long way.
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tevans6220
The forums are the way they are for two reasons. 1. Stardock put out a bad product and people are disappointed. 2. Brad gives out too much information. We don't need to know the inner-workings of Stardock, their financial situation or how many units of Elemental sold. All we need to know is how they plan to fix the game and when those fixes are to take effect. Much of the forum animosity is of Brad's own doing. Not just because of a bad product release. It's also due to giving out too much info that is none of our business.
If we all just ignore the Trolls and let Stardock close down the hate threads then soon the jerks will all leave and all will be well
Brad please don't let them bully you out like what happened on the Demigod forums. Just give it time and things will settle. Most of us love your posts and find the info you provide us to be a rather enjoyable. Keep up the great work.
Quoting hannahb,
Wow, a community meltdown...
We get, possibly, one of the best TBS games of all time, and everyone's acting like it's curtains?
The key word there is possibly. It's not there yet and there are no guarantees of it actually getting there. And please let's be a little realistc. With Elemental getting bad reviews from practically every major review site or reviewer, it's not really rational to say "one of the best TBS games of all time". The game is nowhere near that right now. If Brad can come through with what he says about fixing it then it might end up being a very good game. But it's not there yet. It still needs a lot work.
GCFL
The reason is that the forum used to be a tool for collaborative input during the development of a game we were all excited about. While some of that still exists, the forum has changed from a development forum to a consumer forum due to the actual release of the game. The population of the forum simply changes/grows as a result. Regardless of the quality of the build, it is inevetible one way or the other.
seanw3
Some have cut frogboy off at the knees on his latest post and while we all agree frog legs are delicious, I think it is more seemly to give polite and patient feedback when he posts. Respect is number one in my book and I hope that this community can stay as helpful and supportive as we were a mere month before. And to you negativos out there, to you, I say good day!
deadzy13
for myself i'm looking forward to ver 1.1 to 1.3 and beyond and all this will be forgotten and ppl do need to start actling civil , jeeesh!!!
i can say this, we have not been left in the dark like a lot of other company's seem to do ( ha! ha! we got your money now on to the next project)
i rememeber the bullshit we had to deal with from a game called HELLGATE LONDON ppfftt!!! about being left in the dark and the mmo ended up being a repetative single player game after they shut the server's down, they scamed ppl out of a lot of money including myself
so hey! be thankful we have somebody that let's us know what's going on
Fearzone
It was said elsewhere in an excellent post that there are two types of people Stardock needs to ignore or ban from the forums: first are the yes-men who think everything is great and have only positive and encouraging things to say. The state that has brought us to is readily apparent. Second is the haters who will harp on every little thing, and then when what they are asking for gets implemented will complain about that too and a dozen other things, and are never going to be happy. Neither has any use in making Elemental a better game. The first group is easy to ignore, but point being they MUST be ignored, the second has to be put on probation, banned, or somehow ostracized.
The people left are the ones who see the positives and negatives of the game, realize nothing is perfect but consider it a good day when they have a fun time, and thoughtfully consider both sides any point of view, and can reasonably argue with a clear and focused statement (and hopefully short or at least concise) how the game should be modified.
Quoting nobalkain,
So let me see if I understand you. Brad put out a bad product. Now because people are upset about it, they're jerks? It's time for everybody to move on. Actually if you think about it people who aren't satisified with the release or people who are having game problems have more of a right to post than those who have no problems. There's no point in posting message after message of "Brad you're wonderful", "Brad this game is great", "Those who don't like the game are just haters". You proved your point of what you thought of Brad and his game by buying it and not asking for a refund. So it's time for all of us to move on. To get past the bad release and give Brad a chance to make it right. Those aren't my words. Brad actually said that in his Dev Journal last night. I happen to agree with him. So all the fanboy and hater posts all need to go. Not just those you disagree with.
Rune_74
Quoting tevans6220,
See, everyone knows it needs alot of work...we just get tired of every thread having apost telling us that...
It's beating a dead horse.
Don't worry guys. I'm not going anywhere. We're not going anywhere.
While it is certainly a huge bummer that Stardock won't be able to do two games at the same time, the flip side is that we can focus on Elemental for a long long time to come.
Moreover, the horrible launch does have on silver lining - it liberates us. Not just Stardock but all of us. You, me, the community as a whole to do things with this game that have never been done before and that is, keep evolving the base game in new and interesting ways.
I'm going to take a small break from making journals only so that there's time for the game itself -- the basics -- to get addressed and restore the faith for those who are on the fence or those who feel let down by us.
Nick-Danger
Regarding the OP's view of the state of the community -- we're in shock and we're mourning. Both will soon pass. Let's not over-react, as this is a normal process after a "loss".
And there's still a lot of fun here.
There are 2 sides to every coin. The OP addresses one side -- the overly negative. The other side is the overly positive.
Face it, there was (and still is) some sort of froggy cult -- as if he could do no wrong, as if all his decisions were golden. Too often polite and respectful criticisms of the game, especially its release-readiness, were met with resistance just do to the fact that some didn't care for the act of criticizing him and the game. We all saw how that turned out.
Perspective is needed. Not undeserved negativity, and not blind positivity (did I just make up a word?).
Balance is needed. Negativity is bad, but so is the absence of critical thought (critical in the academic sense of challenging ideas, not in the insult sense).
Wintersong
Quoting Nick-Danger,
<snip> we're in shock and we're mourning. <snip> Let's not over-react <snip>
But you are. Not that you are the only ones, but you are. It's not just the problem of one side, be it "Frogcult says Frogboy is God and therefore he is always right", "We are the good guys because we criticise" or "I paid $50 for the game and therefore I own Stardock".
tetleytea
There were layoffs at Stardock. That doesn't have anything to do with the forums.
Aexrael
There's nothing that a banhammer and forum moderation can't handle.
If people overstep their boundary, just nuke them, It should be that simple.
Windexglow
Stupid people talk the loudest. Always remember that.
It's a shame on the journal pause - the way the last journal ended felt like "Well if you don't like it fine. I'll stop doing them *just* for you".
Honestly the drama is getting tiring. Yes, frogboy takes a lot of the blame. We get it. You making another post isn't going to make him realize "Oh shit, maybe it's not all my fault!".
You want to see how a company shouldn't respond to the community?
http://www.undeadgames.com/zombie-news/fort-zombie-why-you-shouldnt-waste-your-money/
I think there is definitely some of that.
My biggest weakness historically (obviously my opinion) isn't ego or pride but obtuseness which leads to cognitive dissonance. Sometime last year there was an issue where a game sold on Impulse called Warlords Battlecry had part of its original copy protection in it (same version that has been sold on Amazon.com, gamersgate, and elsewhere for years). When this was pointed out on forums, over and over, I blew it off because "my guys" told me it was fine and they had talked to the publisher who said it was fine.
What many people don't realize is that most of the time, the "forum people" out there are wrong. It's easy to cherry pick forum posts that were right because statistically, there will always be people who are totally right just like they were totally right in the case of Warlords Battlecry. By 9 times out of 10, the forum criticism is nonsense or overblown.
The challenge is always in being able to figure out when "Internet guy" is making an absolutely true, valid point and that has been a continuing problem with me. In Elemental, it was doubly the case because I wasn't spending that much time on the forums. Stardock had grown to a 60+ person company so I was, as you can imagine, doing a lot of other things besides Elemental. So even if I saw some of the posts, I didn't "know" the people making them and didn't correctly discern which people's warnings or suggestions were viable and which ones were not.
Now, bear in mind, there's also the opposite of "cult". The level of "Brad stalking" has reached an unbearable level. Phone calls to my home, stalkers from Qt3 trashing my book, multiple suggestions that I should "kill myself" (1 just saying that and two others referring to hari kari) along with people reposting my Facebook status's and on and on and on).
Then there's some of the ridiculous Internet rumors. Stardock has over 60 people. We may end up having to lay off up to 15% or so of our total work force. That shouldn't be newsworthy given Elemental's reception. And yet, I've seen people talking about Stardock's "investors" needing to be paid off. I'm the one and only investor in Stardock. The moderators have had to hide multiple posts from people saying I should "resign" if I'm serious about "taking responsibility". Resign to whom? I own the company. I founded it in my dorm room 20 or so years ago by myself.
Anyway, all of this will pass. We're going to work on Elemental for as long as it takes to make it live up to our hopes. I don't have to make a business case for that. I own the company. 100% of it. And to be candid, we didn't get to where we are by doing stupid things. There are plenty of long-term good reasons to make Elemental live up to people's expectations even if it costs us financially in the short-term.
Just like I don't sweat the lowlifes astro-turfing the Elemental book with hatefilled reviews, we're not going to fold up camp on Elemental because the first week of the game's release was a nightmare. In the long run, it'll be fine. We'll be fine.
Quoting Novaburst,
We almost never ban. In fact, we have a "de-voice" (like IRC) feature in our forums that just keeps people from being able to post/comment for awhile. That's what we typically do if a user can't control themselves or thinks that they have a "right" to spew vitriol.
Brad I have an idea. Instead of having praise threads and critical threads all over the place, why not start and sticky two threads for just that purpose? With the understanding that people posting those types anywhere else in the forums will have their post deleted. It would make it easier on you and your moderators.
Sethai
i can see the reasoning for stopping the journals. the opinions are all here on the forums if they are wanted. it's up to the devs to read them if they want and try and change the game for the better. now is the time for action i think; the time for friendly banter, regrettably, has passed. i do believe the game can be saved: i love the concept and much of the execution, but find it difficult to play a full game before throwing my hands up in the air. it has given me more hours already than most big budget console titles, so there's that. and posting here with (some) really smart people about game mechanics has been really stimulating. we're all here because we have hope and want the game to be fun and a success.
personally i'm just glad i got my comment in before the journal thread was closed, as it was locked as i was writing. some websites would not have allowed that.
Shalkto
Heh wish i'd have read your post before i made mine James. I too am sick of this StarDock needs to get ban happy.
this could work. one for combat system, one for magic, one for settlements, one for adventuring/monsters etc. but with these things there is always the risk you end up forcing the people who follow the rules into ignored ghettos, whilst the vocal minorities ignore the recommendations and make big flamefest threads. that's what happens at swtor.com
yaromir
I think stronger moderation is in order to keep things polite, civil and focused.
Which. from the looks of it, Stardock has already started doing.
I for one hope more constructive discussions will spring up, talking about features on their merits, rather than passions.
But yes, it will probably take time for heat to die down.
Sometime last year there was an issue where a game sold on Impulse called Warlords Battlecry
Now there's an example of a screwed up release. WL:BC was one of the awesomest RTS games ever--but Warlords:Battlecry 3--ohmigosh--archers didn't work. That was such a blatantly obvious bug, I don't see how they could possibly have tested the release version. Picture playing Warcraft 2 with your melee units working but all your ranged units always miss. That renders entire races useless, like the elves and the fairies. I bought that on Impulse for only $5, but it wasn't worth the wear-and-tear on my network card downloading the bits.
MrCapitalG
I would return the damn product if I could, I was denied because I pre-ordered this thing over 90 days ago and even though it is unfinished and much has been said about this, I'm apparently out of luck. Lovely.
wayninja
It's very strange. The tone of the OP and thread feels like we are potential consumers clamoring for a release and simply have no patience for delays rather than paying customers who purchased beta software at a premium. It's fine for Stardock to have no patience and hurry this game out the door well before any resonable person would agree it's ready, but the folks who believed the hype and purchased this pile of bugs are 'angry kids' who need to back off.
Sorry, I'm not looking to troll or start flame wars, but I'm also not going to sugar coat what this is and no amount of frogboy-cult-propoganda is going to make me stop voicing my opinion. If I'm not welcome, neither is the state of the game. The latter will be cured when the former is.
It's a sad day when the community feels it has to walk on eggshells in order to get what they paid for, or to have updates on when the situation will be rectified or how. While it's true that a certain amount of unhappy customers coming to this forum were inevitable, the extent to which the situation is egregious has always been with Stardock. If anything, this situation proves that the community as a whole not only has the right, but the responsibility to hold the publishers feet to the fire so as to not have a repeat of this situation in the future.