White House on M855 Ban: It Wazzunt Me. ATF: We're Reviewing, The Situation
In the video above, the White House spokesmodel Josh Earnest laid the "blame" for the ATF's climb-down on the M855 "Green Tip" ammo ban on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (And Really Big Fires). What was that about failure being an orphan? Meanwhile, over on Capitol Hill, ATF jefe B. Todd Jones told a congressional committee that the decision to shelve the M855 ban was part of an overall review of the whole "armor piercing" ammo situation, which will continue . . .
"The genesis of us putting that framework proposal up for public comment was our good-faith effort to try and construct a framework to deal with nearly 30 exemptions that we have had in the queue for many many years at ATF," he said. ""We do have a responsibility to regulate. We can't stick our head in the sand with respect to the additional exemption requests." Watch this space.
Rokurota says:
Not over yet: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/12/atf-raises-new-concerns-about-ar-15-ammo/?intcmp=latestnews
Jim Jones says:
Jones going on the record with the fact that the ATF thinks ALL 5.56 is a problem for officers. Great! I appreciate this administration's efforts to make it clear to even the Fudds that no one is safe from the antis' agenda. We don't want your rifles, but you can't really be ok with bullets that could defeat cops' body armor, right? Hunting? Sorry, copper bullets are even worse. But we don't want to take your rifles!
Definitely not over, but the YouTube video is open for comments! Take a minute and share your thoughts on YouTube – while the anti-gunners still allow discussion.
You mean before the FCC regulates you speech on the Internet. It's a war on multiple fronts being waged by Obama. All the Bill of Rights are under active assault, though the push is strongest against the first two. What I call the codependent guardian amendments upon witch the whole of the Constitution rests.
John E> says:
this isn't regulation, it is a solution in search of a problem
The only thing ATF is supposed to enforcing is tax collection under auspices of the interstate commerce clause.
Paul G says:
Who told you that??
Davis Thompson says:
It's a prohibition in search of a rationale.
Yellow Devil says:
Modern Liberalism is the worst solution to problems they originally created.
MurrDog says:
Can't blame them. All they're doing is looking for the final solution to a bunch of questions.
"Good faith"…. Is he serious? That line and this administration don't jive. Call me pessimistic.
Mmmtacos says:
I think I had to do a double take at
"We do have a responsibility to regulate. We can't stick our head in the sand with respect to the additional exemption requests."
Because if there is one thing this administration does well it's pick and choose what laws it will "faithfully" execute.
They have a duty to regulate that which shall not be infringed?
I like how they've shifted from M855 to all 5.56 (and all rifle ammunition) in general. Maybe the Fudd's will get off the fence now? They keep their evil baby piercing sniper rifles only by the gracious exemptions of B. Todd Jones, Duke of All things that can be fired or lit on fire. These guys want to ban all rifle ammunition, that is what they are saying.
neiowa says:
Mr Fudd isn't interested. Brown Bess, Springfield musket, WWII collectibles, and his 12ga. Don't NEED other.
Deuce says:
They'll love it when their GMX bullets are regulated as armor piercing and their lead core soft points outlawed because of lead.
A hardcore FUDD will comply with any law. They'll wait in line and register everything, they'll throw gun hunters under the bus if they bow hunt, and they'll turn stuff in because they were told to.
FUDDs are the "law and order" type.
foo dog says:
Boys. You might want to go back to your Ron Paul files, or InfoWars, or whatever it is you read to need to feel superior to others, by imaging dark things about the NRA or hunters, etc.
Dividing the POTG by insulting groups by names like FUDD is at best, simply dumb, and at worst, trolling of the anti-gun type.
(which is more likely, now that TTAG and other gun-sites are punching way above its weight, and punching holes in the credibility of progtard sockpuppets like Shannon of GMO fame, and Jennifer the NYT blog censor).
Besides, as you can tell simply by reading here, there are MANY guys and gals who started target or hunting on bolt action, who have added on to hunt with semi (A81), or going the other way, from black plastic t more traditional (Tyler Kee). I read a couple other blogs and state gun forums, and I dont see this juvenile jackA$$ pretension much there, so I gotta wonder, is all I am saying…
Trying to put people down based on their equipment just recalls the old joke about guys with REALLY big watches.
Jonathan - Houston says:
FUDD is a mindset, not a tool set. After all, there were FUDDS way back when everybody had the same Kentucky Rifle, even before the name "Kentucky Rifle" was applied to such firearms. Some used them, or were prepared to use them, for certain purposes.
Then, as now, others were content to be told what they could use them for and whether they could even own them. The distinction depends not on what they hold in their hands, but on what they hold in their hearts.
While I agree the term "FUDD" is derogatory, but it is a stereotype based upon reality. There are hunters out there who hunt with their bolt action .30-06s and .270s, and everyone else, carrying anything else, is just wrong. They'll be happy to pay extra money for their yearly box of ammo, get additional permits, or do whatever else is deemed "necessary in the interest of safety." Worse, they'll preach safety to others whilst celebrating their perceived social responsibility. Some have opened their eyes to modern sporting rifles. Some never will.
Danny Griffin says:
No, what is dumb are the Fudds who don't care what happens to gun owners and carry rights as long as it doesn't affect their hunting. I've met a number of hunters who "don't believe in all that CCW stuff."
Wake up.
Yeah, I get what you are saying, but I still think you are wasting time beating a dead horse, as the number of old fuddy duddy too stubborn old dogs who cant learn new tricks, is both a construct of the juvenile emotional growth stage teens go thru, in their narcissistic self centered phase, that most grow out of, in other words, an exception rather than the rule…
and as a practical matter, if you factor in all hunters in households, and the drop of 15% drop per Pew Poll, since 1985, then its probably fair to conclude there are far fewer of these are old dogs still around, who might vote against assault rifles, or whatever, just to spite thosd young whipper snappers
…so its of marginal utility to worry about it, much less expect to persuade someone is that set in their ways, even if they were here reading TTAG. You surely aren't going to convince them by insulting them…
Besides, mocking your elders just makes you look the fool.
That makes you someone I'd less likely turn to for credibilty on guns or anything else.
That brings me back to my point…circular firing squads is for progtards, you know: divide and conquer, bitter clingers, all that…
like the Alinsky community organizer in chief does….
so, don"t be "that guy"…
Mocking my elders? I'm 58 and I'm talking about men, hunters younger than me who only care about their hunting rifles and think that pistols are unnecessary and carrying a concealed weapon is crazy. And some of them are just as stupid and stubborn as leftists when it comes to guns.
About twenty years ago I was talking to a big-time hunter, went all over the US to hunt large animals, and I pointed out to him that the Democrat politicians he supported were proposing severe restrictions and even bans that would affect his hunting rifles. There was proposed legislation that would ban sniper rifles by description. What is the perfect sniper rifle? A medium caliber bolt action hunting rifle! The same rifle military snipers had been using for decades in war. He didn't believe me, even after I showed him the proposed legislation.
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
Mack Bolan says:
As I've said before the ATF are the Redcoats and the next Lexington and Concord is on the near horizon.
I'm still holding out hope for a peaceful, legal, and bloodless conscious uncoupling of the Union.
ARluv says:
My biggest fear still lays on the Sig Brace ruling that seems to be put to the side. If the ATF can redefine the word "redesign", they can simply say that using an AR pistol with a round that will go through level III armor redesigns the pistol to be an armor piercing gun or something along those lines. From their they will say you cannot shoot M855 from an AR pistol. The step they can attempt to go after that is "redefine" all of those pistols and say that they aren't designed to be pistols so use of those "firearms" as pistols redesigns them and therefore now makes them illegal. The industry should really be up in arms about this ruling.
A pistol based around a center-fire round capable of piercing soft body armor through velocity alone is now deemed an illegal destructive device similar to the SPAS. Shooting any AR pistol or Thompson Contender is now a felony. Just watch, this is likely the next stage and it actually has more legal ground to stand on.
And any AR can be converted into a pistol with a hacksaw and 20 minutes (not true, of course, but it will convince the grabbers) so ALL ARs must be banned/outlawed, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in. Includes AR-15s, AR-10s, all ARs built in the past 50+ years, 'cuz we say so.
ChainsawWieldingManiac says:
Nice theory, but the law is pretty specific about the construction of "armor piercing bullets". A very real criticism of the ATF's position before was that M855 didn't meet the AP bullet criteria in the first place, unless you really stretched it. They have no authority whatsoever to ban an entire caliber.
While true, that won't stop them. They have hit the point of no return. It's either ban the rifles or expect to have then used against them.
"They have no authority whatsoever to ban an entire caliber."
Uh-huh. So, what's your point?
Shire-man says:
"Any 5.56 round" is "a challenge for officer safety," he said. Jones asked lawmakers to help in a review of a 1986 bill written to protect police from so-called "cop killer" rounds that largely exempted rifle ammo like the 5.56 because it has been used by target shooters, not criminals.
So prices on all 5.56 will be rising stupidly just in time for the shooting season. Great.
*that largely exempted rifle ammo *
That whole line pisses me off. 5.56 and all rifle ammo is not under that law because its a rifle round and the AP ban only applies to pistol ammunition. It also pisses me off how they mention .223 as being a lower power and not under threat from the ATF trying to ban it to placate the Fudds.
You didn't stock up when it was cheap? Seriously? 55gr. was selling for $290/1,000 and 62gr. was selling for $320/1,000 just a couple of months ago. I'm talking brand new Lake City and IMI. How many times are you going to let this administration jerk you around before you stop being just-in-time buyers?
Thanks nanny
1. You going to just sit an look at your stash or actually shoot any of it? Then replace it?
2. Think your kids/grandkids might want to execise their 2nd by buying ammo down the road?
3. Unless you believed the eunich in chief, their are thousand of new gun and AR owners every month how don't yet have your sufistercatun and wysdum to immediately stock up with cases.
4. How much you stocking now? Need more or going to just give your free cash to WallStreet/the Fed?
As much as I, you or anyone has on hand the stock is never up. It's not like anyone is ever done buying ammo. Whether it's 500 or 5,000 rounds I'll still have to buy more at some point. Or I could shoot less. Not compete this year. Not attend any courses this year. But if I don't shoot what's the point?
Exclaiming "you should have stocked up!" or "stock up now!" is worthless unless I never shoot again or know that terminal cancer will kill me on a set date and I only plan to shoot X number of bullets until that date.
neiowa and Shire-man, the point is to stock up when it is cheap so that market fluctuations don't hurt you. If prices go up or ammo becomes scarce, you can still shoot without worrying about paying high prices or not be able to get it.
Yes, neiowa, I do shoot it. Back when even pistol ammo was scarce or high-priced after Sandy Hook and Obama's reelection, I was still able to shoot regularly and even take a two-day defensive handgun class where I went through 900 rounds. I didn't have to worry about paying high prices or depleting my stock. As prices have been low this past year I have been restocking again.
I'm not saying we should ignore the administration's assault on our freedoms, we should fight it and things like these ATF rulings, elect pro-gun conservatives to office, etc. But you should also be smart about this stuff because YOU KNOW FULL WELL the administration, anti-gun groups, and other liberals are going to keep trying to ban guns and ammo. You've been warned. Repeatedly. Don't ignore the weather reports.
There are more gun owners now, and a higher percentage of gun owners are also actively shooting, not just keeping their guns locked away until hunting season like when i was a kid, so you know there is more demand in the marketplace anyway.
Were you not a Boy Scout? Be prepared! This crap isn't going away.
"There are more gun owners now"
Nah. I saw a poll …
Richard Cox says:
I suspect they are now contemplating something retarded and highly illegal, like an across the board 5.56 ban.
David P. says:
So how does banning the M855 round "protect 2nd amendment rights and keep firearms out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them"? Your words not mine. The only people who knows less about guns than that spokesman is the press asking the questions.
"…we do have a responsibility to regulate…"
This is like the congressional duty to make laws. Just because regulation (or lawmaking for the latter) is your purview does not mean that if you're not busy making up needless new regulations and laws that you aren't doing your job. I have a duty to feed my children, but I don't have a duty to cram unnecessary food down their gullets until they choke to death. To do so would be abusive. Same at the ATF, and in Congress.
Alan In FL says:
So, how much more bs can come out of this Presidential Office?
Obama only heard about this on the news like everyone else.
DickG says:
It's like wiping your a$$ with a barrel hoop. There just ain't no end to it!
Lol. I am so stealing that line…;)
Part of me almost hopes that they do try to ban all .223 / 5.56. Best case scenario is that they will have massive non-compliance and a burgeoning black market. The worst case scenario is..much more ugly.
The ATF, and this administration, bitterly hates answering to we the people. They are our *leaders.* Without them, we would be casting about aimlessly in our ill-fated attempts to seek life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Wresting control from control freaks is a perilous task. I pray that it can be done peacefully.
Wiregrass says:
Yes you can. Shut up and be happy with your nonproductive government job and pension funded by the taxpayers. Since you think regulate means to ban an entire class of ammunition, then maybe we need to get serious about regulating the funding for your bureaucracy's existence.
My Older Brother Chet says:
They keep saying things like officer safety. But not once has any of these clowns discussed getting better armor for the police. Because you know , common sense officer safety for the children.
C.Rogers says:
BATFE administrator's List of Things To Do Today:
•Buy stock in ammunition manufacturing companies
•Threaten to ban ammunition
•Watch gleefully as panicked gun owners re-re-mortgage homes to purchase now-overpriced ammunition.
•Buy new boat for myself, BMW for wife, and bigger tits for girlfriend.
•Go to sleep.
Laconic yet eloquent.
80 D says:
Once, in flight school, I was laconic.
Rog.
Just as in F&F, and in police forces and sheriiffs dept around the country, there is a big divide between the street cops and management, where I have heard that 99% of deputies are in favor of citizen carry, vs a famous sheriff involved in a case now at appeals court level.
What I think is happening is the same corruption and abuse of Executive Power, with plausible deniability at the top (I heard about it in the newspaper) and stonewalling once caught, vs some rogue agent…anyone who knows anything about bureaucracies, especially govt Law enforcement, knows the blame is in DC.
What we ought to be doing now, is writing our Congress reps and pushin for disollving the ATF, and reassigning functions, and best agents to reputable agencies, and demoting ATF upper management to TSA screeners, where they belong.
Or bring them to testify in court, to hold those at top accountable, for the RICO eligible abuse of power we have seen the last 6 years, in particular.
JQPub says:
Is this kind of like every other time they publicly lost big and stated they were going to "review to see if they could potentially press charges later" (ie – Zimmerman, Berghdal, Ferguson, etc) – just to placate their extremist cronies and the media who all sung along to their tune – only to let it die down and quietly brush the issue under the carpet once their cronie sycophants find some other issue to latch on to?
Chrispy says:
Fingers crossed
Well, did I call it right? (Again) I said a month ago when this first broke that it was about banning the entire cartridge caliber, not an armor piercing round- which M855 is not.
Nor will it stop there. ANY centerfire rifle cartridge will defeat body armor and there are handgun variants for all of them. I've even seen handgun variants for .50BMG!
At this point, ALL rifle ammunition is a threat to police. You could not make a rifle cartridge that is not a threat. This is about a widespread gun ban, not one type of one kind of cartridge. Nor is it criminals that the administration is afraid of, it is the ~150 million legal owners they have reason to fear.
One last thought. Has anyone noticed that it has not once occurred to ATF to reclassify the handguns that fire these rounds and prohibit them? No and nor will they. That approach doesn't help their agenda.
Cuteandfuzzybunnies says:
Congress was trying to ban a specific class of handgun ammo. They realized banning any armor piercing rounds would ban all rifle ammo above 22 LR. They put
Protections in the law. Green tip ammo does NOT meat the technical specifications for the batfe to ban it under the law. It does it have a large enough steel core. Look at the statute. If they banned green tip the manufacturers would have sued and they
Would have won. It would have mad atf look stupider than now. Also the law passed by congress did not mandate not authorize them to ban handguns that fired potentially armor piercing rounds.
Why not outlaw shooting policemen? Wouldn't that be more effective, and a lot easier? We wouldn't even have to worry about armor at all, so who cares about armor piercing? I am truly amazed that no one has thought of this before! I must be a genius! Elect me god, and I will take care of all of you forever. You won't have to make any decisions at all, and free shit will fall from the sky right on your head!
mlloyd says:
They are just blowing smoke. They won't try a 556 ammo ban. The ATFs plan went down in flames, now they are trying to save face and say they aren't done, but have no timeline. It was an administration miscalculation.
What does anyone expect them to say, "Oh dear, that was a bad idea, sorry folks?"
Maybe, but what was true in the Fifth Century remains true today: Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Agree. But I don't even think it's a matter of preparing…. we're AT war with these asshats – and even if we 'win the day' as we did the other day, we can never turn our backs on them. In fact, I think we should try to beat them to the punch and throw our support behind Rep Tom Rooney's legislation to stop more silly shit like this before it starts: http://www.guns.com/2015/03/12/legislation-filed-against-ammo-bans-some-seek-to-reverse-7n6-ruling/
BATFE should be the name of a convenience store franchise!
Damn, what a plan! I want a franchise!
Or caveat emptor. Which is Latin for I'm not buying B.Todds bull-shite. Holder's neither, nof his boss'.
I'm thinking I'm in the vast majority on that in flyover country, too.
Which is why Dems are running to hide like cockroaches when you turn on the light in the crack house.
You are absolutely correct, this is classic Washington face saving. And you can bet if the WH is trying to put all the blame on ATF, it came directly from the WH. If you remember just last week, before the public outcry blew this up in their faces, WH press sec. Josh Earnest was defending this "common sense" ban…
JLyon says:
Here is the original article.
http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2015/03/12/atf-admits-officials-still-considering-ammo-ban-looking-at-how-we-do-this-rationally/
A few lines stood out to me.
"At today's Senate hearing, Jones said the framework was not explicitly aimed at the M855 cartridge."
"I want to make sure everybody understands that this was not… an effort to completely ban that certain type of cartridge,"
Thats not what the White House is saying.
Just be ready to use what you have to keep the right to bear arms. Its the fear of this very thing that has these Progs backing off.