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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 17:32:23
Originally posted by Icelander
I was, perhaps, insufficiently clear in my question. I'm not really looking for space where I can make something up, but rather a canonical noble family which was important in the earliest history but is no more.
Your question was clear enough. The problem is that the families that truly important in the earliest histories of Cormyr (pre-200 DR) are all accounted for, and none of them really work for your goals.
My first thought was the Turcassans. Is there any pressing reason they would not work?
The Turcassans were minor nobles, important by virtue of their association (by marriage) to the Obarskyr royal family. Their ascension to prominence was around the 4th century DR, and their fall was even swifter. Only Jotor Turcassan remained loyal, and even he was never quite as important as the remembrance of the name suggests. People remember the name because the Turcassans were the ones that sold Suzail to Magrath and his pirates.
On the other hand, Cormyr must be full of baronets and few people even remember the names of them all. So I don't think it would be noteworthy enough for my purposes for a title of 'baronet' to be reclaimed. I was thinking something closer to 'Duke', so that it would set the whole realm abuzz.
That's why I originally thought of the Turcassans, but I'd like to know if that's at all viable.
The Turcassans were a family known more for their perfidy than their loyalty, and were never dukes of the realm. Of all the noble families in Cormyr (less than a hundred at any one time, if you remove knights and extraordinary nobles from the count), perhaps a half dozen can claim dukes among their current number, and half that can say that they were once dukes but have lesser titles now.
Now, that's not to say that having a Turcassan restored to nobility in Cormyr wouldn't be a huge deal; it most certainly would. In real world terms, it's kind of like the descendant of a famous assassin running for public office.
So yes, the Turcassans can work for your goals... if you tweak either your backstory or the lore enough to make things fit.
Originally posted by Garen Thal
The Turcassans were minor nobles, important by virtue of their association (by marriage) to the Obarskyr royal family.
I somehow assumed that as one of the original families involved in the founding of Cormyr, they had accrued a more substantial title. Especially given their royal marriage and the fact that one of their own, Relve Turcassan, was the foremost battle leader of early Cormyr.
I assumed that he'd have been made a Duke, especially given the etymology of the title.
I like the idea of public furor. That screams adventure opportunities for me.
But I'd really love it if the noble title was substantial enough for social climbers to fawn a bit too. Universal condemnation is no fun, but condemnation by the old school nobles and traditional commoners combined with a faction trying to find a use for a figurehead Duke (Marchion, Count/Earl might do, in a pinch, but I'd prefer Duke) that's naive in politics.
During the adventure when the proof was found, I hinted broadly at supernatural assistance, specifically the legend of the Purple Dragon. An elven girl with purple eyes who could command the loyalty of veteran Purple Dragons, War Wizards and patriotic nobles just by looking into their eyes was questing to restore something to the realm.
The players did not find out what it was, but uncharacteristically agreed to allow the elven girl to carry a valuable art object away without thought of reward. Even though a lot of parties wanted the art object and they were risking their life by refusing to give it up to them.
They did so because they believed in whatever cause espoused by the elven girl. She used no magic on them, but the players roleplayed a very interesting combination of awe, love and mysticism in connection to her.
I'd feel it was kind of a letdown for someone who at least felt like an incarnation of the spirit of Cormyr (elven features for the former inhabitants, purple eyes to suggest the heritage of the Dragon, inspired love and devotion in the same way as the Obarskyrs, etc.) to be questing for the restoration of a minor noble family.
I want the restored noble to be a strong presence next to the Throne in troubled times. I want his very name to suggest the glories of the early days of Cormyr. And I want the traditional nobles to oppose him out of principle, prejudice and jealousy.
If not Turcassan, what family would you personally use for this?
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
Edited by - Icelander on 04 Nov 2009 21:46:25
Relve was not (exactly) involved in Cormyr's founding, even though Turcassans were there for many of the earliest conflicts of the realm. Relve was among the best swords and captains of Cormyr's early days, but none of the Turcassans are considered 'founders'--the distinction of being the founding families falls to the Obarskyrs, the Silvers, and the Bleths.
Had the Turcassans not betrayed the throne, they might have garnered a more lofty title, but they didn't make it that far. Keep in mind that the Falconhands have served Cormyr for more than a millenium, and the highest ranked among them is Florin.
Dukes didn't arrive in Cormyr until later on, when there was a large enough nobility to warrant differentiation greater than "lord," "knight" and commoner. Relve Turcassan was a knight, but not a lord.
Now, the title that the Turcassans held has never been established in canon lore, and we never bothered to consider it for the Lineage. It's certainly possible than Menelith Turcassan (the one that betrayed Duar to Magrath) was an earl--in fact, it's rather likely. But higher than that is improbably.
I think you might have a misconception as to what constitutes a social climber.
Far less than one per cent of all Cormyrean citizens are nobles; it's maybe three to four thousand (if you count every knight, baronet, baron extraordinary, and persons with court titles), out of about a million people. There are less than two hundred people with titles of baron or higher--and more than half of them are viscounts or barons. If you add up all of the earls, marchions, and dukes in Cormyr, you'd be lucky to find four dozen of them. 48 people out of 1 million is fairly high up there on the social ladder.
I've snipped out your tale for the sake of readability, but it sounds like fascinating play, and I almost wish I could have been there.
I'm not resistant to the Turcassans so much as I am to the idea of them as a family that held a dukedom. In fact, the weight of the family name overcomes (in my opinion) the rank of whatever title they may have held. This is a family that betrayed the Crown almost wholesale, that lost its titles and its honor in the process, that nearly went extinct, and (according to your backstory) had nearly redeemed itself before tragedy struck. That they are earls rather than dukes is of little importance; the age of their title and the importance of their story is what matters here.
That said, if it makes things easier for your campaign to simply make them dukes, then go for it! Who am I to say what's best for your game? It is, in the balance, and extremely minor change in lore, and one that seems like it will have a valuable payoff for you and your players.
I refered to social climbers among nobles. The local baron who likes the cachet of his son being friends with the son of a noble far more important than he is or his sister who wants to marry a duke, or a count at the very least. ;)
Earl will do fine.
Great Reader
Your (not so) recent exchange with Icelander got me wondering... how much detail is there on the history of the Cormyte peerage, going beyond those obvious daughters who married Obarskyrs and sons who married Obarskyr daughters and (presumably) are covered in the Lineage? What I'm asking, I guess, is how far afield in Cormyte nobility does the Lineage go, if you can tell me? If not, I'm used to seeing "NDA" now...
I haven't been around much in the last while; for the last four months I've been charting the genealogy of the British Monarchy and Peerage, and I'm about to expand into the French royal line. I needed a project big enough to keep me busy until the Cormyr lineage sees the light of day, and I have a number of purposes in mind for it. That doesn't make me any less insane for taking on the project in the first place, mind you.
Thanks for any non-NDA answers you can provide.
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 05:29:42
Deepest apologies for taking so long to respond to this query (and any others I may have missed--if anyone's still waiting on an answer, please, don't hesitate to let me know!).
For the most part, the Royal Lineage of Cormyr is just that: royal. There are a few indications here and there of families or specific nobles that may have been ennobled, stripped, banished or otherwise important to a given monarch's reign, but most of what you'll find, if and when the Lineage finally sees the light of day, is strictly Obarskyr stuff.
That's not to say that detailing dozens of other families isn't worthwhile, but frankly, it's more work than could be expended on this kind of project, particularly when so many nobles in so many important eras simply haven't been detailed, or even named, in any source. It's a whole lot of lore to create from whole cloth.
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 21:10:28
Thanks, Brian! No worries about the delay; I'm mired in the later stages of cobbling together a set of house rules from 3.x, Pathfinder alpha/beta/final, and other sources, and pondering the deep and secret connection between Elminster and Cormyr between fits of rewriting, so I haven't had time to think about the Lineage much lately.
The answer is more or less what I had expected... and I feel a project brewing here... but I'd need the Lineage to do it properly, and I'd rather not do it improperly. I would suggest using this as another argument in favor of publishing the Lineage, but I suspect the response would go something along the lines of:
[highly satirical rant excised by great force of will]
In short, as much as I'd love to see the Lineage, I've resigned myself to waiting for the flying pigs instead. It's more likely to happen, and much less disappointing if it doesn't.
The Lineage is not a dead project by any means, and please trust me when I say I'm doing what I can to push WotC to get it out to folks. In fact, I'll be working on that front some more again this week.
Wish me luck!
By all the good gods, you have my deepest wishes for success in this endeavour, Brian! I have never had any doubts as to the efforts of yourself, Ed, and others on the part of disclosure; it's the obstinacy of the opposition that has caused me despair. Here's hoping that reason prevails...
The Red Walker
( and don't forget the old turn the AC up really cold and bring the pretty lady a hot tea ploy! )
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
crazedventurers
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 21:23:40
I posted a question on Ed's thread about the Shieldwall Barons on western Cormyr and am wondering if you have anything to say about those Barons? their trade connections, longevity, rules and regulations, numbers and names etc?
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Because I am always loath to step on Ed's lore that I haven't peeked at, I'll hang off on naming specific nobles of families just yet. Still, I can help with a few of your queries.
1) What are the typical dwellings for ennobled barons? wooden forts with pallisades, fortified manor houses, ruins of a previous baron patched up? How much stone castle building goes on?
In the Storm Horns, which seem to be your area of concern, shieldwall barons make due with whatever they can manage, from tent cities and hastily-constructed spear-walls to wooden keeps. The region (given its location, the difficulty of quarrying and distance from reliable sources, and the difficulty of getting skilled crews anywhere) makes stone construction very difficult.
2) If a baron is lucky enough to find a gold/silver/copper/tin/gem mine on his/her land, how do they go about registering the claim? Does the claim stay with them only or can it be passed to an heir? Is there much mineral wealth in western Cormyr?
Our Hooded Lady has answered this one fairly well. There is mineral wealth to be found in the Storm Horns, but a great majority of it is one of two types: highly concentrated lower metals in small and easily spent deposits (copper is a primary one, but also some tin and sometimes iron), and larger but spread-out veins of more valuable metals (primarily silver), which take a long time to mine before any return can be found.
3) Who decides what a barony will be called? Does the Crown and/or Heralds have a list of 'accepted' barony names or can the newly ennobled Baron Swillbuckets name himself Baron Swillbuckets of Greysword Vale (the small nameless valley he was given by the crown)? If he doesn't survive the first winter would the name be honoured by the Heralds/Crown or can a newly enobled Baron (Aerith Falcondown) rename it to the Barony of Falcondown when it is given to him?
As always, the Heralds (Crown heralds, in this case) name all baronies and other place-titles. The Crown might very well let Lord Swillbuckets become Baron of Greysword Vale, but that vale will have been named by some Herald or courtier long before the good baron has any idea what to call himself. Titles that are inherited also include their appropriate places, so the next Baron would also be of Greysword Vale.
Keep in mind, however, that Cormyr is not a feudal system but a central monarchy. There is no barony of Greysword as such, with borders and an area of authority invested in a baron. Titles in Cormyr aren't attached to any specific grant of land or tied in any way but formal declaration to a location. There's no such thing as a Cormyrean "barony."
[A brief note about titles: In Cormyr, nobles get titles that might, in the real world, by accompanied by a land grant of appropriate size and the possibility of nobles of lower rank swearing fealty to the noble. Barons gain baronial titles, but not an actual barony; similarly, dukes are given dukedoms (a ducal title) but not duchies (an assignment of land). It's easy to confuse the two, I know, but it's still the case.]
4) Can a succesful baron of good standing and years of succesful building of his barony take over the land of a new baron adjacent to his land who died within his first winter because he/she couldn't protect his land from orc attacks etc? If not what measures might the Crown take? Could the Baron buy the land rather than send his troop in to patrol/take over?
In such a case, the deceased baron's heirs (as determined by his desendants, the grant of title, and Crown decree) inherit his lands, his titles, and his responsibilities. If no heirs exist, the title and the land revert to the Crown, who might assign it to the above-mentioned baron, or might send Purple Dragons to administer the lands.
See also the note about titles, above.
Thanks Brian for your valuable insight into Cormyr
Since there's been no update on the issue, I take it that the Cormyr Lineage is still under wraps... *sigh*... no flying pigs here today, but the way it's raining, I'm looking for flying fish...
WotC is is enjoying making you wait a really long time for that lineage.
They truly are evil...
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
George Krashos
Gee, if it ever sees the light of day, I hope it meets expectations ...
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Right!!!
No trouble at all. Any time I can answer a question, and notice it (I am, admittedly, rather busy this month, and last), I'll do my best to help.
Patience, Jakk. Patience. The two months after GenCon (with big product releases, lots of updates, and then people needing to go on vacation) are some of the slowest times of the year for getting responses. When I know something and can share it, I will.
If that ever happens...
Nay, not evil. Merely... ponderously considerate of the consequences.
Ahh, George. If only someone would email you the most recent version, in recognition of your long and underappreciated work on that long-suffering history...
Oh, wait.
And if someone was to e-mail a response ... oh wait again.
And I take it from that grin that it does in fact meet expectations? Alright, just let me sign the $&%#@! NDA!
*sigh*... it's a good thing I'm both employed and (this week) joining my fourth campaign as a player, or I might actually have some time to sit and stew over this... the new campaign is Pathfinder, set in Golarion.
And so they should be... of the consequences of me not getting the historical Realmslore that I've paid my dues through three and a half editions of the Realms for. I own almost every gaming product for the Realms from the Old Grey Box to the Grand History, with the sole exception that I can think of being the Waterdeep Trail Map... I didn't get it when it was new because I didn't see the value in it (having assembled all the 1E poster maps into a wall-filling masterpiece and not having any more room for maps on walls) and now it's just slightly out of my price range.
And now I'm even more curious... what consequences??? Is this about Tanalasta's suspected dubious paternity again? Or is it about Elminster's mysterious ties to the Forest Kingdom? Probably not the latter; we all know he's an ancestor of Filfaeril... although there were certain... issues... raised by Elminster Must Die that make me wonder if there's something more there.
I must away to dream, perchance to sleep...
Edit: Oh, and if WotC wants to know what it would take for me to buy into the 4E Realms... bundling the complete Lineage with the purchase of the three initial FR 4E releases would have had me down at my FLGS quicker than you can say "Spellplague!" That's all. G'night.
Edited by - Jakk on 21 Sep 2010 07:27:57
No, no. Not consequences like those. The consequences of releasing that much lore, in bulk and unadulterated, to a populace that has long been starved of it. Addicts we are, and well we know it... what do you think will happen when Realms fans finally get their hands on lore they've been asking for, after so long, hmmm?
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