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A Scouting/Fundraiser Question - Am I being unreasonable?
What's with the ads?
By mamaraby, January 3 in The Chat Board
mamaraby 8,837
Amateur Bee Keeper
We're heading into Girl Scout cookie season which means my "huh, that's odd" thought from the award ceremony this fall has come up again. I'm trying to get a feel for how unreasonable my feelings are on the issue and since none of you have bought cookies from my girls you're an uninterested third party.
I have two kids in GS. For council, 600 boxes is considered a "top seller" and when you reach that level, you go to an awards banquet where your scout goes across the stage to receive recognition for the number of cookies they sold. This is where the "huh, that's interesting" part comes in. While I have spreadsheets that track cookie sales for both of my girls, I don't carry them with me. Dd1's official number according to council was 601 boxes and Dd2 was somewhere around 640-ish. At the time, I know there's something not right because I make sure my girls sell exactly the same number of cookies every year. I knew at the time that Dd2's number was closer to what I thought we had sold, but I couldn't say for sure what it should have been.
Fast forward to yesterday. In looking at last year's spreadsheets, both Dd1 and Dd2 sold 661 boxes of cookies. Which means according to council's numbers, dd1 was shorted 60 boxes. I don't know for sure how many dd2 was shorted, but it was nowhere near that many. This morning, I called the troop leader and she tells me that what she probably did was take those 60 boxes and spread them out among some of the other girls in Dd1's troop - because if they were short of an incentive level, then by taking dd1's cookies and crediting them to those other girls, those girls earn that incentive they would have otherwise not earned. In the meantime, she makes me feel like I'm being unreasonable in questioning it because a) she's done this every year since she started with the daisy troop and she's been doing this a long time, b) she says she mentions it at every parent's meeting, and c) if I feel that strongly about it she can make "a special exception" for my girls.
Here's the thing - between the two girls the cookies reassigned to other scouts in their respective troops is somewhere around 60-80 boxes. When the selling is good, that's about half of what we sell door to door on a weekend day. Towards the end of the season when no one wants cookies, that's probably all the girls well sell on a weekend day. We're talking 10am-dusk or after, door-to-door in the snow because I live in the midwest and of course cookie season is in February. Am I being unreasonable to be upset about this?
We're significantly scaling back our sales this year to the per girl troop minimum average number so we can't be accused of costing the troops the troop incentive trip. It means fewer incentives, but I'll be giving my kids some cash because I'm burnt out on cookies. Some of the people I've talked to about this (who also happen to be related to us) feel what the troop leader is doing is unethical and that the other girls knew they hadn't reached the incentive level when they stopped selling and if they had wanted to, they would have kept selling. Some have suggested that we not sell cookies at all this year. Dh thinks we worked too darn hard for this. All of these people think I should do more than I have about the issue.
I would have been ok with a few boxes each girl to help someone out. I think 60 boxes is a pretty big number to have given away to someone else - especially since last year's cookie season was hellish with a stomach bug that would not quit. It makes me not want to sell cookies. I can't go back and get her to undo what she did last year, but it feels wrong to do nothing and wrong to make a big stink. So, what say the hive. How unreasonable am I for being upset about this and do I do anything?
Edited January 3 by mamaraby
katilac 15,486
Deferring to Evil Since 1966
Can you clarify if your dds are missing out on further incentives by the reassignment? Or is 600 the limit, so to speak?
Not that I wouldn't be annoyed either way.
happysmileylady 17,254
Qualified Bee Keeper
I am a troop cookie mom this year and that is NOT something I would ever do. I was going to ask you about cookie booths, because in terms of a cookie booth, all sales at a booth would get spread across the girls who participated, which would probably result in a discrepancy between families (like I am the cookie mom for DD10's troop, but DD8 is in a different troop so they will be doing different booth things, etc.) But other than spreading booth sales across the girls that participated, no, I would never reallocate cookies like that that. I am not cookie robin hood.
Having said that, I also have no intention of keeping track of the number of cookies either of my girls sell other than what it necessary (and of course, as cookie mom for DD10's troop, it's more necessary to have exact figures for each girl in the troop) If DD8 sells more, great. If DD10 sells more, great. We will buy an even number from each girl, and I will be taking both girls door to door together and taking turns house by house. But I have no intention of making sure that if DD8 runs across someone who buys 50 boxes, that DD10 finds a way to sell that many too.
And, I would only make a stink if the reallocation meant that a kid missed an incentive. I guess what that means is that to me, it's wrong enough that I would never do it, but not wrong enough that I would be bothered if it happened to us, as long as it means my kid didn't miss out on what she earned.
To take it just a step further, if a parent came to me and said hey, ABCDE needs 6 boxes to get to X level, so if you can, my daughter QRS can give up 6 of her boxes to ABCDE so she can get her prize...that I wouldn't have a problem with. But I would never do it outside of something like that.
Beaniemom 1,730
Hive Mind Queen Bee
We were always minimal cookie sellers and I would never expect cookies sold by other girls to be credited to mine. I always made sure the girls understood our limitations (no door to door selling neighborhood and no nearby relatives) and that others would likely sell many more than them.
I would be the mom telling the leader that such a thing is not right even if it benefits my girls because to me it is not honest. You are misrepresenting the work each girl has done.
Edited January 3 by Beaniemom
HomeAgain 13,920
Apprentice Bee Keeper
It kind of takes the honesty and integrity from the girls. I'm not sure I'd be interested in a troop that tried to negate those qualities in scouting in favor of a marketing scheme.
xahm 2,805
I think the cub scout popcorn mom said that she uses the "show and sell" days popcorn to make sure that every kid who puts in some effort gets at least to the first prize level. She mentioned she took some from her kid specifically since he has to go with her to every show and sell and so racks up a lot that way. I think that's okay, especially when the benefiting scout is young, but I'd be upset for this to be taken from my kid without a "thank you" being given to my child.
Tanaqui 29,128
Beekeeping Professor
I think she thinks that this incentive structure is a problem but she doesn't know how to fight it properly. And I'm not sure she's wrong! Giving a reward for top sellers penalizes kids who have other obligations, like a bigger homework load or a longer list of chores, or whose parents can't support them with selling, or who are sick, or who are just unluckier.
Edited January 3 by Tanaqui
HeighHo 2,196
If she mentions it at every parents' meeting, then there is nothing to say. The leadership feels they are running a team by making different rules than the Council and taking 'extra' from the top sellers and boosting the rest. Its dishonest if the sale is for individuals and individuals are recognized for what they did not do, and the leadership and the boosted scouts feel free to promote that lie.
What we did as leadership for Cub Scouts was set up booths outside of stores so that those who didn't have the big family/workplace/neighborhood could have more opportunities to sell enough to meet their individual goal. There were cases where individual scouts did give a unit or two to another...but that was a big ethical discussion and it often ended up as a learning experience in the hollowness of recognition not earned even though persuasion was successful.
Yes, I would move on.
Library Momma 970
Hive Mind Worker Bee
LocationConnecticut
I was the cookie mom for my daughters troop for a number of years. We had 18 girls in the troop (give or take each year) and were active from kindergarten through 8th grade. Our troop was part of a service unit that included 30 or so other troops from our town. I mention this because it sounds like our GS cookie experience is very different from yours.
First off most Daisy troops decide for themselves if they even want to sell cookies. Ours didn't - We just felt they were too little.
Once they started selling some girls decided they didn't want to participate. Very few girls sell direct or pre-sales. Of the ones that have - 600 boxes would have been an enormous amount of cookies. Most troops don't even sell that much. Cookies that girls sell in the pre-sale are credited to those girls and those girls alone.
We would also then do one or two cookie booths. Some girls only participated in the cookie booth sales. We would divide up all sales made from cookie booths and divide those boxes among the girls that participated.
When they were younger they voted to be awarded the incentives (which included bandannas, water bottles, etc - whatever GS offered that year). Only girls that reached the corresponding amounts were awarded the incentives. As they grew older they decided they would forgo the incentives in favor of earning more money per box for the troop.
Every girl that participated in selling was awarded a patch (not the badge unless they earned that).
I will say again - we would never take boxes from one girl to give to another, especially if it affected the credits they were earning for summer camp.
I'm not sure about the cookie ceremonies or incentive trip you mentioned because we didn't really have those things.
28 minutes ago, katilac said:
There are further incentives. It didn't knock dd down a level. The next incentive level is 804 so even being short those 60 boxes leaves her at the 600-803 incentive level.
17 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:
I have a feeling she did it previous years with booths. Last year the girls were at a two person booth with my two girls the only ones at it so we were the only ones to split the cookies with and since we had checked the cookies out as a family and run it, I split the sales between the two. Door to door, it's just easier to maintain one cart of cookies and one pot of money. I don't track who sold what on a door to door basis so I'm sure one dd might sell more than another if I broke it out per house, but they're both out there for the same amount of time at the same time(we can clear a street quicker this way). I just split it in half at the end of the night and update inventory/sales totals. We're doing it direct sales instead of order taking because then we don't have to do twice the work.
I don't remember her saying that she split each girl's sales up at the parent meeting, but had I remembered it, something like what you mentioned at the end of your post is how I would haveenvisioned it. 6 boxes, sure. 3 boxes, of course. 60 boxes amongst the Junior troop that doesn't have that many girls in the troop to begin with seems like a lot.
3 minutes ago, Library Momma said:
For our troop this year, I am discouraging "partial participation" It's not that I want to be super gung ho cookies ra ra sis boom bah! But at least as I am understanding OUR service unit's cookie materials, the troop money received and troop incentives received are based on a per girl average, and that means that a girl who shows up at a booth and gets 5 boxes sold, the troop will have a lower pga which means less money for the troop.
Acorn 1,085
Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee
I would only be upset that the council uses money for "incentives". I'd rather see that money used for programming or experiences instead of more plastic water bottles.
That's not how it is supposed to work. The troop gets a specific amount per box sold. Period. That amount can increase if the girls vote not to be awarded incentives but unless things have changed drastically it shouldn't matter how many girls participate.
5 minutes ago, Acorn said:
Agreed - We were happy when the girls realized that too and voted not to receive them in favor of the extra money.
The amount the troop gets per box depends on the pga. I have no idea if that has changed or when, it's been over a decade since I have been a leader or cookie mom. According to my cookie book, up to 179 boxes, the troop gets 55c per pox. Between 180 and 239, the troop gets 60c per box. And 250+ per girl average, the troop gets 70c per box. Per Girl average is of course total number of boxes sold by the whole troop, divided by the number of girls participating in cookie sales. So a girl who sells nothing, that doesn't count towards that pga. But if a girl shows up at the last sale with a signed agreement and earns 5 boxes sold at that booth, she counts as part of that average. We have one girl who has already said she's not selling, and that's totally fine.
From what our council says, some percentage of the cost of the cookies goes to incentives. We can either choose the incentives or we can donate the equivalent money to charity. One of the charity options is the council's camper scholarship fund.
I think I would be bothered by two things. One, it doesn't seem to be setting a great example for the girls. I think you are right that it's not just a box here and there, because who wouldn't buy a box of cookies if their kid had sold 598 or 599? Two, if it's going to be done, she should ask each individual, not make a general announcement that she's doing it. They do this big announcement of how many you sold and make it a big deal, so of course some kids are going to be disappointed if they call 601 instead of 660.
1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:
Wow - We received 25c per box no matter how many we sold or how many girls participated. 35c with no incentives.
10 minutes ago, Acorn said:
Some of the incentives are that though. Like a trip to the zoo, or camp credit, etc.
One of the options I was considering this year was minimal participation like we do with the nuts and candy sales. A few boxes to a few people, no door-to-door effort, and a booth so they get the badge. I wouldn't want to hurt pga, though, and i wouldn't want the troops not to get the field trip award that's based on a minimum pga.
Rachel 6,523
I'm not in Girl Scouts and never have been. I reluctantly but a couple boxes of cookies each year from kids of my friends if they ask. (I hate how expensive they are and how little the girls actually get).
Since the numbers don't affect any incintives or awards, I wouldn't worry about it. I would be annoyed. You and your girls know how many they sold but what a spreadsheet says isn't changing anything in your lives. I would be more vocal about not doing the evening out in the future or I would come up with a more fair way of evening things out.
Perhaps just saying Susie needs 4 more boxes to reach an incentive and Sally needs 8, Jane, can we deduct that from your total?
7 minutes ago, mamaraby said:
The per girl average thing may be totally different for different councils. And if you are scaling back your overall participation, I don't think that's a problem. But one thing you mentioned was that some girls ONLY did booths....I would never tell a parent no, but I have said that I would really prefer for parents to just be out if all they really want is to be out, and explained that the per girl average matters.
I think the per girl average isn't a reason to discourage individuals....sink or swim, they are part of the group. Maybe find opportunities for them to do more than a few boxes? I've been able to do so by sharing the usual sales numbers at location x,y,z and inviting their families to come when the group has a time slot reserved. Personal growth and unit/team cooperation/working together is the goal, not a prize, right?
Edited January 3 by HeighHo
unsinkable 22,975
AD QUEM IBIMUS
I think if you didn't hear it at the parents' meeting, other parents haven't heard it either.
Also, I think it should be an "opt in" situation, not an "opt out" like the troop leader presented it to you. It kinda seems like a...I don't know...shaming, backwards way of presenting it, instead of a positive, uplifting way.
With THAT being said...I was cookie mom and/or service unit cookie manager for over a dozen years. I would give our extra troop boxes to girls who were close to the next incentive level. If I needed more than that, I'd use my DD's. And as a last resort, I came another mom and girl if I could use theirs. It never lowered anyone's incentive level.
1 minute ago, HeighHo said:
I think the per girl average isn't a reason to discourage individuals....sink or swim, they are part of the group. Maybe find opportunities for them to do more than a few boxes? I've been able to do so by sharing the usual sales numbers at location x,y,z and inviting their families to come when the group has a time slot reserved.
We are only allowed to have 2 registered adults (no adults not registered and background checked) and a minimum of 2 girls, max of 4, no tagalongs at each booth slot. And our council/service unit is pretty strict about that.
So, the incentive field trip requires a pga of 252 per council which I interpreted as each girl needs to sell at least 252 for rhe girls to get the trip and those that sell over kind of make up for that. Am I understanding PGA correctly? In other words is it better for the troop for that particular group incentive if we sell that 252 per girl or does it not matter.
Our council used the number of registered girls to calculate per girl average. It didn't matter who participated...if you had 10 registered scouts, the sales were divided by that number.
That might have changed since I did cookies.
ScoutTN 14,972
No experience in GS, but the leader changing the sales records is lying. The girls should be recognized for their actual accomplishments.
I would be seriously unhappy with such a lack of integrity in my kids' scout leaders.
Edited January 3 by ScoutTN
itsheresomewhere 5,637
1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:
The amount required just to get a patch peeves me. Should be if they sell one box, they get the dang patch.
For our council, it's a concert. And it's at a pga of 250 for the troop.
So, our troop has 7 girls, 6 have said they are participating in cookie sales (though so far I only have agreements for half that) SO, lets say for ease of numbers, I have 6 girls that sell 1800 boxes total. That's a per girl average of 300, and all 6 girls who sold get to go to the concert. But, lets say our girls sell 1200 total as a troop, that's only 200pga, no one goes to the concert.
But, lets say our 6 girls sell a total of 1700 boxes all together. Thats a pga of about 280 (ish) and they go. But, if we have 6 girls selling and then our 7th picks up one booth and our troop total is 1710 after that booth. That is a pga of something like 244....no concert for any of the girls.
And again, I wouldn't tell a girl to sell or not to sell, just please, if you are going to sell, then sell, if you aren't, then don't and change your mind later. It decreased both the girl and the troop opportunities.
(ftr, we are a brand new troop, if our pga is 100 I would be shocked. Most of our girls have never participated and even getting parents TO the cookie meeting was rough. Like I said, not all rah rah sis boom bah here. I just think either a hard yes or no is better than a maybe)
12 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:
In my council, you needed to order by the case. So if I had a troop total of say...13 boxes of trefoils, I had to order 2 cases...24 boxes. The troop was responsible for those 11 extra boxes, financially.
I have no problem morally, splitting those extra 11 boxes among girls to get them to the next level. Since the council forced us to order like that, then the girls could benefit from them making us order like that.
I think this is one difference I appreciate in the Boy Scouts. DS sold things every year he was in it. The reward was funding in individual scout accounts, a portion set aside from what the troop gets. Some group selling activities he asked quietly to be taken off the list when it came to fund distribution. That meant that the newer scouts got a boost from the average for working, which meant more. The one troop he was in was unfair to new parents by asking them to pony up $1000 for various expenses within the first 3 months. His last year he was able to kick back more to the troop because he wasn't adding to his fund for camps or uniforms anymore.
BUT, this put the ball in his court and let him make the decision. It didn't assume he was a non-entity who couldn't make decisions on his own behalf.
3 minutes ago, unsinkable said:
I am not sure I understand your post or how the fundraiser process works.
Who sold the 11 boxes? Whoever actually sold them should be credited with doing so. Doesn't seem that complicated, but I am probably missing something. No GS in my family.
Carol in Cal. 20,268
I don't like the sound of that, but if it is announced in advance then I wouldn't fight it.
I have to say, the whole levels thing is so screwed up in general. Some folks have their kids' order forms out on their desks at work, and some sell door to door while others do not. At our church a lady who was (OK, there is a bad term for this, and I can't think of a polite one right now) to the pastor actually set up a project wherein everyone in the church was asked to order GS cookies from the pastor's daughter for the women's guild to pack up and sent to troops overseas. This was in the Sunday bulletins for no less than 3 weeks. The poor girl had nothing to do with it, really, but I'm sure her numbers were very high. You had to walk by the table to leave church each Sunday. It was awkward not to order, especially for such a good cause.
I don't know how to make it right. Some kids have it easier than others, and some kids work much harder than others, and neither of those things is reflected completely in the final numbers. Having said that, although it ticks me off that GSs have to hustle cookies while BSs get to learn survival skills outdoors, I do think it's good experience for marketing later on--asking for a sale, noticing that some sales are from hard work and some from location and some from just plain luck--those are good experiences to have. Maybe just not every year.
(The same lady at our church had 4 sons do Eagle Scout projects for the church, and pretty much went around collecting the money for them, which is not supposed to be the way it works. Honestly, she is the one who should be in marketing.)
Edited January 3 by Carol in Cal.
Margaret in CO 17,725
So, because the leader had been lying for several years, that makes it okay? I would raise a fuss. I'm sure if the girls had been ASKED it would have been agreed to bump up the other girls, but to not be asked??? Our older boys got together on their own and decided to just support the younger guys in their pop sales at rodeos. They all realized that they could make more in a few hours at their jobs, and that the younger boys could use the help. But it was THEIR idea!
12 minutes ago, unsinkable said:
It is my understanding that for our council, for this year, the pga is specifically calculated with those who have signed the agreement
6 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:
This is not what is going on in our troop....it's not one or the other. EVERYTHING cookie is being done separate from troop. And in fact, one of the troop leads is also a BS mom so much of what the BS troop does, the GS troop does too, within what badges the different groups are doing.
At the time when they are ordered, no one has yet sold them bc you had to round up to full cases (12 boxes). So, you'd total all your individual girl orders and come up with a total. Like I said...say it 13 boxes of trefoils. I had to round up to 2 cases, which was 24.
Multiply this by 6 to 8 varieties of cookies. So each troop had extra cookies that had to be ordered that no one had yet sold but the troop was responsible for paying for.
Now once cookies were delivered, girls might get extra orders/need more than they originally ordered. If they took/sold those extra orphan boxes, they'd get credit. If no one took/sold those boxes before the ince native totals were due to council, and a girl was short for her next level, I'd credit her those troop boxes as needed. She was in the troop, and the troop was responsible for them. The girls shou!d get the benefit of that, IMO.
Edited January 4 by unsinkable
incentive! Tablet doesn't want me to write *incentive*
That seems fair. But I can see how it can make things difficult, given the examples.of the lower seller.
Moonhawk 1,630
In need of sleep, or chocolate.
LocationSouthern Arizona
I never sold cookies the 3 years we were in Girl Scouts, which is difficult to do with the pressure they put on you (at least my troop). I had a frank conversation with the troop leader that we wouldn't be selling and we could miss 2 months of meetings if that would make it easier for both her and my daughter (since a lot of the meetings during selling just revolved around cookie sales rah rah). I was co-leader and a generally active mom with the troop, so this was taken okay.
I was appreciative when she "shared" some of her boxes with my daughter so she could do all of the end-year incentives with the rest of the troop. But, she only shared from her daughter's boxes, and her daughter sold 2016 (or more) boxes. She told me after the deed was done, I had been willing to pay to have my daughter join in or simply stay home instead.
I do not think it's right to share boxes that aren't hers, and I'd be annoyed. More than annoyed probably. If it isn't agreed on explicitly, then it is taking credit from girls that worked hard, and giving things not earned to others; on either side of the equation it isn't a good lesson.
This is done differently here too. When the girls sell individually they take orders. The troop is then sent exactly the amount of boxes too fill the orders. If the troop decides they want to do a cookie booth they can order cases to sell from a "cookie cupboard." After the booth sale the unsold boxes are returned to the cookie cupboard.
1 hour ago, Library Momma said:
We had a cookie cupboard...But you could only get full cases and return full cases.
And if you got cases for a booth sale that were over their prescribed limit, you couldn't return them. Council had a formula, and if you went over it, you couldn't return anything.
if you stuck to the formula, you could return UNOPENED* cases only within 48 hours.
* Not in open...ugh!
11 minutes ago, Library Momma said:
In our council, absolutely NO box of cookies is ever returnable. Not to the cookie cupboard, or anywhere else. You order full cases, you pick up full cases. Nothing is returnable, you have to account for every single box.
Having said that......if your troop needs X boxes of thin mints and another troop has extras, you CAN transfer between troops.
Yes, just fill out the NCC in triplicate! LOL
I'm getting hives, reliving all this.
PeachyDoodle 4,353
you can call me queen bee
LocationNorth Carolina
If my girls weren't hurt by it, it wouldn't bother me in the least. If they had lost out on something, then it would, for sure. But since they are a troop, I don't see a problem with them working as a team to help everyone reap as many benefits as possible.
My dh has been in sales for years, and it's worked this way on every team he's ever been on. If one rep is over quota and another needs a bit to push him over the top, they move sales around so that everybody gets there. It's good for the team because it keeps everybody's average up. It literally is money out of our pocket when it's dh who donates the sale, but if he's at 100% to quota, then he's bringing home more than we need anyway. And sometimes he's on the receiving end, in which case we get more than we would have that month.
If I complained about anything in this situation, it would be that the girls themselves weren't invited to share their sales, or at least given a head's up. I think that would have made it easier to swallow than a blindside.
Our BS Council started the no return policy this year for popcorn. The upshot--less than half was sold than years past, as no one wanted to get stuck with it. Our troop doesn't do popcorn anyway, as we leave that for our Cubs. Our Council just can't see why we don't want to sell as the pack gets less and less every year. Our Council is demanding we do nut sales this spring, with the same policy. Um, no. Count us out. Plus they're demanding we do Scouting for Food in February. Um, that's not when our food pantry needs the help. We do it right before Christmas. Always have. Always will.
I also always feel compelled to point out that just because the troop receives 50c to 70c per box, that doesn't mean that the other funds don't benefit the girls. When I was a scout, I spent 2 weeks at a GS camp that was horse related. We rode horses every day. They were kept in the horse barn on camp......caring for those horses...year round food, vet care, etc...it didn't come just from some summer camp fees. Cookies are a huge part of that sort of thing.
Council wide events. Leader training. etc etc. These things are things that cookie sales contribute to. Just because the troop doesn't get 95% of the box of the cookie, that doesn't mean the girls don't benefit from more than 50c per pox.
Ive tried to explain this for years to people. I even had the breakdown if they wanted to see it.
But if they did look at that breakdown, how much went to National salaries?
mom2scouts 3,938
Empress Bee
4 hours ago, happysmileylady said:
Aren't cookie booths usually held in public places? How would they ever be able to enforce this rule?
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