New York City Bus
Brooklyn's poorest residents get stuck with the MTA's oldest buses
By Via Garibaldi 8, March 17 in New York City Bus
Interested Rider 486
1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:
None of this excuses the fact that these buses should've been retired. That said, this does seem like a publicity stunt. These elected officials should've been there pushing the entire time. Maybe this will change some things. We need buses retired within 15 years. 20 years + is too long and all riders should expect clean and reliable buses, which unfortunately is not the case on a number of lines across the City. If the won't or can't replace buses sooner, make sure that buses are fixed and rehabbed. We've seen countless examples of buses breaking down that aren't even that old leading to passengers having to go to the hospital for respiratory issues. That is unacceptable. In fact I raised the issue with two elected officials in Southern Brooklyn about Ulmer Park Depot and they are raising the issue with some big wigs at the such as Pat Foye, as they should. Buses that are six years old should not see the kinds of defects we're seeing, so I can't imagine what happens with these buses.
Agreed and once again my point is did the author do any research on the subject or was it a publicity stunt?
It is a cheap publicity stunt pure and simple where a posting of a question on this forum could have gotten the answer that should have formed the basis for his article. There are two different types of buses in the system as we all know with two different dates of expiration as CNG buses must be replaced by the date of expiration (15 years) and therein lies the problem as diesel buses do not have an expiration date which they should have an expiration date of 12 -15 years) Thus the MTA was up against a CNG deadline and therefore took the new equipment which would have replaced the oldest buses and sent them to the CNG West Farms depot. Therein lies the problem and had the author wrote about this in the article, then he would have had a real issue. Instead the article was written where it become an issue of "class warfare" which it is not as the issue is one of not replacing buses in a timely manner. As our forum members have written, the issue was and is why have the buses not been scrapped and that has nothing to do with what the author wrote about and presented in his article.
Again had the author posted the question and would have read the statement that ViaGaribaldi posted here, then right there it could have formed the basis for an article that justifies serious attention by our elected leaders. There are serious issues with the bus system in terms of what ViaGaribaldi raises here and thankfully she has gotten the ear of our elected leaders in this part of Brooklyn that will raise it with the MTA. Let us all hope that the elected leaders are successful in raising the issue of maintenance as that is far more important in my book.
A postscript: I know what ViaGaribaldi is saying having spent too many years on Staten Island where the new buses would fall apart and garages from all over the city has to send buses to replace their buses year in and year out.
MysteriousBtrain 1,717
Location: A fantasy line
53 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:
I wouldn't go too fast calling it vultures. This current XD40 order about 1/2 of it went to West Farms in actually those buses were to be for East New York, Fresh Pond and Ulmer Park. (Excluding Flatbush)
We could all sit and argue to which buses need to go where but this the job of the Department of buses to fix this situation and stop sending buses from the Brooklyn Division to The Bronx Division. Brooklyn Division has needs too!
I'll give u a perfect example. I was on 4924 last Thursday (B25). The wheelchair lift is wasn't working and the bus kept jerking. Bus completed service at Broadway-East New York. Next day bus was sent out and had similar issues and that was on the B45.
PS: The had a press conference and not one reporter mentioned about buses. SMDH
I get what you guys are saying and yes, Brooklyn should have more new equipment, but we did get new buses over the last few years in Brooklyn (the first 7000 XD40s) and we still have a bit more new (blue) buses on the way to Brooklyn. And yes, management with these buses has gotten so terrible these last few years. (just looking at the 6000's in MTA bus is proof enough of this) Another thing I agree 100% with is ordering new hybrid/electric buses. Make these areas a bit more green. With the new electric program continuing on I could see ENY being one of the first depots with AEBs in service. And hopefully ENY runs them by 2020.
Future ENY OP 773
Location: BK
12 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:
I'm not here to defend this article since the author seems very biased and doesn't understand how it works.
However, when you have the department of buses and depot preferences and politics you will have a storm like this with the tabloids
Brillant93 310
That's my issue with everything. If you work for a company you shouldn't decided on what is given to your depot or not. Because that's going to leave certain things going in the wrong direction. Excluding the articles intake.
Deucey 1,464
Aside from the fact that Manhattan has to have the brightest and shiniest just so elites and tourists are "impressed", unless the RTS' break down more often or the areas they serve have more people with mobility impairments that make high-floor boarding difficult compared to others, this is a manufactured controversy.
Bay Ridge Express 133
Location: A neighborhood in Brooklyn
5 hours ago, Interested Rider said:
When I read this article, I was ready to scream as this is another example of someone who started with a conclusion (which was not true) and used it to express an opinion on a issue which the author of the article knew absolutely nothing. As the late Jack Webb from the television series "Dragnet" stated quite succinctly "Just the facts", meant that before a conclusion should be written, research must be done to support the statements.
In reading this typical piece of unsupported garbage masquerading as news, the first question that came into my mind was did the writer do any research to prove what was obviously a hit job on the MTA. The answer is quite is an emphatic "no" as the while the author had one of the best sources in front of him, the internet where all he had to do is plug in a couple of terms such as RTS or buses and he would been led to websites such as this one, it is quite obvious that this was not done. Then all he had to do was scroll down the comments made by our members and then would find out that the RTS buses are being replaced quite rapidly and should be gone by the end of the year.This information comes from members who are considered reliable sources by those of us who are interested in transit. As ABO Brooklyn correctly points out, the routes that run out of Ulmer Park have a high number of RTS's but this did not fit his conclusion which was the purpose of this hit piece and therefore he would not have put it in the article which was the oldest buses are running in poverty neighborhoods. . The author would also learn that the Bronx which also has a high rate of poverty just like the communities in Brooklyn, however, its fleet is far newer as compared with Brooklyn and therefore his conclusion was wrong.
The key here is research and pardon me for saying this but doing research today is far easier than the early 1970's when I began work as a librarian when there were no computers and it could take hours and sometimes days to track down the information needed to put together an article on buses. At that time there were so few articles written on the subject and unless you knew someone who was directly connected and involved with the division, the information that was available could best be categorized as slim and none. The only way that the information was available was the once in a blue moon press release that would announce the purchase of new equipment So when I read a piece of garbage like this that masquerades as journalism these days, I cringe as this article in my opinion was designed to motivate the usual group of individuals who are looking for a cause to find an excuse to hold a rally.Take a look at Kingscountypolitics.com today and watch all of those who fell for this garbage having a rally this morning in front of the TA headquarters,
Too many persons who consider themselves journalists do not follow Jack Webb's advice before writing something and having it published. I only wish that this author would have heeded his advice before writing this hit piece.
4 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:
Speaking of Brooklyn with the "oldest buses":
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-metro--adams-brooklyn-buses-20190318-story.html
Before anyone says anything I would like to point out that since the beginning of this year a lot of RTS have been seeing less service in general and most of Brooklyn is seeing a lot more new buses now. Yes the RTS has been there long enough but at the same time people who live in or represent Brooklyn really shouldn't be talking like this if they don't know what is going on with the way buses are distributed.
lol... you see now, it's not bad journalism, because it WORKS. It fooled our very own Brooklyn president into thinking that we weren't doing something right. But this whole affair will be pretty pointless. Either the will just replace all their "old" buses soon anyway or the people will determine for themselves that it's not the at fault. Either way, this is a pretty pointless divergence that will amount to nothing.
3 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:
Why would they? It's not in their interest to talk about anything negative.
JeremiahC99 197
I wouldn't go too fast calling it vultures. This current XD40 order about 1/2 of it went to West Farms in actually those buses were to be for East New York, Fresh Pond and Ulmer Park. (Excluding Flatbush)
The 21 XD40s to West Farms would've probably went to Flatbush for local service (giving them 69 units), not East NY, Fresh Pond and Ulmer Park.
And about West Farms, why didn't they get Gleasons C40LF buses 230-250 and 351-353 so that the shortage there can be filled. After all, 38 XN60s is equal to 57 C40LFs, so I was expecting more buses to be transferred from JG).
42 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:
In language. Everything for Manhattan and The Bronx gotta be brand spankin new.
Wow. At this point, there's gotta be something against Flatbush and all the other Brooklyn Division Depots. As if there is special treatment for rich Manhattan and Bronx people that working class Brooklyn folks don't deserve.
1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:
Bronx? Rich? I think the only thing is that the Bronx has more artic routes than any other borough while Brooklyn carries way more passgengers than any other borough.
But I don't think it's really something against a depot or anything but it's how mangament sees or treats "priority" of course things happen like west farms where they needed extra 40 footers.
But at the end of the day it's gonna come down to politics and if they uncover that shit may hit the fan.
trainfan22 1,158
Flatbush always had a fairly new fleet, they got 85 NGs brand new and prior to that they always had a lot of 98/99 RTSs.
Also ENY and FP got a LOT of OG hybrids brand new while the BX didn't get any OGs.
While we're on ENY depot. Several years back they had no RTSs and some drivers made s fit over that and were calling out so that forced the mta to give them RTSs back. If these journalists wanted a story tell them to look into things like that. It's not always the MTA is trying to systematically try and pollute poor people but it could be the people pulling the strings in their favor over customer satisfaction.
Edited March 18 by Brillant93
Via Garibaldi 8 7,482
Location: Riverdale, NY
59 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:
2 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:
lol Most of the Bronx is poor, though that is changing as gentrification takes hold. That said, the only areas that are upper middle class would be Riverdale. Country Club and parts of Throggs Neck are also solidly middle class, along with Morris Park, Woodlawn, Pelham Gardens, City Island and Pelham Bay and Pelham Parkway. The rest is mainly poor or working class at best.
1 hour ago, trainfan22 said:
Here's the thing. In the Brooklyn Division it's always been East New York and Ulmer Park most of the time getting their way when it comes to bus preferences. At times I'd put Flatbush in this category since most drivers prefer the RTS than the NG's.
However, when you have tabloids like the Daily News making some what false narratives about the fleet you gotta question how the fleet is distributed. Before the whole West Farms debacle. Ulmer Park, East New York and Fresh Pond we're getting their fair share of buses. Than the wanted to do a rush job on the CNG tanks thus taking some chunk of the ENY/UP/FP order and give to West Farms.
I think someone mentioned about why didn't send more C40LF's to The Bronx and I personally think that should of been the right choice. But it also shows the inability for the to order more buses for depots that have a need. Yes, West farms has a need. However, the Brooklyn Division (all 6 depots) deserves a preference too just like the Manhattan Division.
On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 8:05 PM, Future ENY OP said:
First, I was the person who mentioned why the didn't send more C40LF buses to the Bronx. This is the proof of the response:
On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 4:18 PM, JeremiahC99 said:
In addition, I also agree that it should've been the right choice for them, as they shortage there can be filled and Gleason won't be stuck with all those extra buses they might not need.
Yes, Brooklyn Division does deserve a preference too, just like Manhattan and the Bronx. In fact, they could use better buses as a whole. I don't care if they are from 2009. To start, here is what they should do:
First, we should start by transferring out the 73xx buses that were transferred out from Flatbush and sent to East NY and Ulmer Park, and send them back to Flatbush. In its place, when the 2018 LFS order commences delivery and the NG Hybrids start being displaced, they should tell EN and UP to man up, and get some NG hybrids, with 22 going to Ulmer Park, and an undetermined number going to EN. Incentivize the drivers into driving this by telling them that driving the NGs will earn them additional money on their paycheck.
Also, postpone the M14 SBS plan until everyone can come up with a plan everyone can agree on, and have OF and FB have 51 and 57 XD60s as intended. Also transfer out C40LFs 230-250, 351-353 to WF, and have the 21 XD40s that are for WF go to FB.
Then, when the 2004-05 Orion VII OGs are ready for retirement, EN should get an additional batch of Orion VII NGs, with the Orion VIIs there retiring.
Finally, when the 2006-07 Orion VIIs are ready to retire, and when the 275 hybrid bus order is ready for delivery, replace all 22 of the NGs at Ulmer Park with 25 XDE40s, and replace 21 of the 54 OGs with 20 XDE40s, with the other 33 transferring out. Fresh Pond and Grand Avenue would get 15 and 10 respectively, and Flatbush would get 15. This should be the following fleets for the Brooklyn Division (excluding express buses) Note: blue is for new scheme local buses, and bright blue is for new scheme SBS buses:
East New York (Eastern and Southeastern Brooklyn)
2009-10 Orion VII NG Hybrids (70)
2011-12 New Flyer XD40s (45)
2016-17 New Flyer XD60s (17) for B82+
2020-21 New Flyer XDE40s (20)
Flatbush (Southeastern and Central Brooklyn)
2018-19 New Flyer XD40s (69) (24 units for B46+)
2018-19 New Flyer XD60 (57 for B44+ and B46+)
2020-21 New Flyer XDE40 (15)
Fresh Pond and Grand Avenue (Northern Brooklyn)
Fresh Pond:
Grand Avenue:
Jackie Gleason (Southwestern Brooklyn)
2011-13 New Flyer C40LF (151)
2016-17 New Flyer XN40 (69)
Ulmer Park (Southern Brooklyn)
2011-12 New Flyer XD40 (45)
Total: *163
*Does not include 71 express buses for X27/37, X28/38. With these 71 buses, the total would be equal to 234 buses.
This would provide better service with (mostly) newer buses and end the complaint of Brooklyn having way too many older buses. Service would also be more reliable with these units and address pollution concerns.
I heard the responses from Mr. Irick and Mr. Byford to this political hit piece that was written in the New York Daily News and basically it is the same thing that I and many of the commenters here have said. It was total rubbish and if the author of the article had taken the time to so some research instead of using the conclusion that he started with to prove his statement, he would have not written the article in the first place.
Unfortunately, it is becoming all too common in the print and the rest of the so called "mainstream media" to write material that is not based on fact and include information that is known to be false and have it masquerade as news. This was not the first time that a piece of trash that appeared in the Daily News on transit saw the light of day as we can go back where the something just like this was written in the New York Post and for that matter other sources as well. It disturbs me no end when something like this gains traction from the political establishment when there are other more pressing issues that should be on the transit agenda that should be covered by journalists and the mainstream media. Just look at the various threads posted here and the great work that members are doing to bring to the public's attention problems that are far more critical to all our communities than something that is designed to divide our communities based on economics.
The article's goal has been achieved as the writer got members of the political establishment riled up enough to call another useless press conference and get their 5 minutes before the cameras on a story that should have never been written. What bothers me is that this has become "journalism" today where the truth is conveniently lost in the desire for phony headlines about non-existent problems. What this does is it enables our political leaders to escape responsibility for tackling the major issues that must be and should be discussed and resolved as these are far greater threats to not only to poor communities but all communities as well. There are journalists that are doing great work in terms of investigating and documenting issues that have had a negative impact upon our lives and I look for their writings on many websites that I read on a daily basis but it seems that many of them seem to be ignored in the media as it does not fit their agenda. Give it some time and soon another article will appear on transit that should have never appeared and we have a new thread where we would be writing the same responses are have appeared on this this thread.
That is my opinion.
BreeddekalbL 581
Location: Brooklyn NY, Now Ft.Myers
On 3/20/2019 at 8:23 AM, Interested Rider said:
I agree they responded with pulling the rts off the road due to crying pissing and moaning