BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
Richard Bridge 29 Jun 06 - 03:50 PM
CarolC 29 Jun 06 - 04:29 PM
Bunnahabhain 29 Jun 06 - 06:05 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 Jun 06 - 06:21 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Jun 06 - 07:45 PM
robomatic 29 Jun 06 - 09:49 PM
freda underhill 30 Jun 06 - 12:43 AM
GUEST,ifor 30 Jun 06 - 12:47 AM
The Fooles Troupe 30 Jun 06 - 07:02 AM
CarolC 30 Jun 06 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,ifor 30 Jun 06 - 12:24 PM
Lepus Rex 01 Jul 06 - 12:06 AM
Bunnahabhain 01 Jul 06 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,ifor 01 Jul 06 - 08:05 AM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Jul 06 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Ifor 01 Jul 06 - 02:51 PM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM
robomatic 02 Jul 06 - 05:49 PM
freda underhill 02 Jul 06 - 08:25 PM
GUEST 03 Jul 06 - 02:05 PM
Bunnahabhain 03 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM
GUEST 04 Jul 06 - 01:23 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Jul 06 - 03:40 AM
Wolfgang 04 Jul 06 - 10:54 AM
Susu's Hubby 04 Jul 06 - 12:43 PM
C. Ham 04 Jul 06 - 03:55 PM
beardedbruce 04 Jul 06 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,ifor, 04 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Jul 06 - 08:13 PM
pdq 04 Jul 06 - 08:35 PM
Peace 05 Jul 06 - 12:54 AM
C. Ham 05 Jul 06 - 09:07 AM
freda underhill 05 Jul 06 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,orif 05 Jul 06 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,orif 05 Jul 06 - 04:52 PM
Peace 05 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,guest native 05 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,Tom 07 Jul 06 - 12:31 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 07 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM
CarolC 07 Jul 06 - 08:14 PM
CarolC 08 Jul 06 - 01:00 AM
Teribus 08 Jul 06 - 04:38 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 08 Jul 06 - 06:24 AM
dianavan 08 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM
Teribus 08 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM
robomatic 09 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM
GUEST,forif 10 Jul 06 - 07:01 AM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 06 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,forif 10 Jul 06 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Walt 11 Jul 06 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,David 12 Jul 06 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,David 13 Jul 06 - 02:27 AM
GUEST,Walt 13 Jul 06 - 11:37 AM
akenaton 13 Jul 06 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,Albert 14 Jul 06 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Albert 14 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,james 14 Jul 06 - 04:36 PM
Bill D 14 Jul 06 - 04:55 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 14 Jul 06 - 11:05 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 15 Jul 06 - 12:01 AM
GUEST,Mahoney 15 Jul 06 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,Josh 15 Jul 06 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Troy 15 Jul 06 - 10:38 AM
Ron Davies 15 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM
dianavan 15 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM
Ron Davies 15 Jul 06 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,Seth 15 Jul 06 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,HUGO 15 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,DAN 15 Jul 06 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,Girl by the whirlpool 15 Jul 06 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,Hugo 16 Jul 06 - 02:14 AM
GUEST,Jackson 16 Jul 06 - 02:30 AM
GUEST,Winslow 16 Jul 06 - 02:34 AM
GUEST,Brigham 16 Jul 06 - 02:36 AM
GUEST,Big Al 16 Jul 06 - 06:11 AM
bobad 16 Jul 06 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Jul 06 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Rondi Adamson 16 Jul 06 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Big Sal 16 Jul 06 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Jon 16 Jul 06 - 03:17 PM
bobad 16 Jul 06 - 07:07 PM
GUEST,Oslo 16 Jul 06 - 07:07 PM
number 6 17 Jul 06 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Josh 17 Jul 06 - 06:53 PM
GUEST,dan 19 Jul 06 - 12:49 AM
Joe Offer 19 Jul 06 - 03:33 AM
GUEST,Irwin, writing from Israel 19 Jul 06 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,"sometimes unfortunate things happen" Josh 19 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,grumpy 19 Jul 06 - 12:49 PM
Joe Offer 19 Jul 06 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Freddie 20 Jul 06 - 12:45 AM
GUEST,sick of it all 21 Jul 06 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,James 22 Jul 06 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,ozjake 22 Jul 06 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,RP 22 Jul 06 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Stop The War: Si 22 Jul 06 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,Stop the War; Si 23 Jul 06 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,albert TO ROBO 24 Jul 06 - 06:04 AM
Jack the Sailor 24 Jul 06 - 10:16 PM
number 6 25 Jul 06 - 12:01 AM
GUEST,Hugo's smarter brother 25 Jul 06 - 04:35 PM
Wolfgang 25 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,hugo...Jenin 25 Jul 06 - 05:49 PM
katlaughing 25 Jul 06 - 08:50 PM
katlaughing 26 Jul 06 - 12:10 AM
GUEST,Si 26 Jul 06 - 01:03 AM
GUEST,Neutral observer 26 Jul 06 - 04:48 AM
GUEST,number 6 26 Jul 06 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,David..in defence of dianavan 26 Jul 06 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,A senator in a seersucker suit 26 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,sammy 26 Jul 06 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,jen 26 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,george 27 Jul 06 - 02:06 AM
GUEST,robbie 27 Jul 06 - 02:12 AM
GUEST,sammy 27 Jul 06 - 02:35 AM
GUEST,Hedd 27 Jul 06 - 10:45 AM
Ringer 27 Jul 06 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,HEDD 27 Jul 06 - 04:49 PM
podman 27 Jul 06 - 09:41 PM
GUEST,tony 28 Jul 06 - 01:29 AM
Ringer 28 Jul 06 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,jon...Remember Qana 28 Jul 06 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,adam - remember Hama 28 Jul 06 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,BA 28 Jul 06 - 04:23 PM
Metchosin 28 Jul 06 - 04:49 PM
GUEST,phil 28 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,Granville 28 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,mark 28 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM
GUEST,brian 28 Jul 06 - 08:23 PM
GUEST,apalled 29 Jul 06 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,katie 29 Jul 06 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,GRANT 29 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,sue 29 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,frances 30 Jul 06 - 07:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 06 - 07:51 AM
Azizi 30 Jul 06 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 30 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,walt.. 30 Jul 06 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,hugo..now thrive the armourers 30 Jul 06 - 10:44 AM
GUEST,theresa.....from London to the Lebanon 30 Jul 06 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,jan 30 Jul 06 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,si..Stop The War 30 Jul 06 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,gren 30 Jul 06 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,donnie 30 Jul 06 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,SARAH 31 Jul 06 - 01:37 AM
GUEST,seth 31 Jul 06 - 01:42 AM
GUEST,redhorse at work 31 Jul 06 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,ed 31 Jul 06 - 03:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Jul 06 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,hari 31 Jul 06 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,hari kiri 31 Jul 06 - 04:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Jul 06 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,roberta 31 Jul 06 - 06:41 PM
Peace 01 Aug 06 - 12:32 AM
GUEST,ray 01 Aug 06 - 01:39 AM
GUEST,Thomas 01 Aug 06 - 04:10 AM
Richard Bridge 01 Aug 06 - 04:32 AM
GUEST,from Qana 01 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM
GUEST,TEPP 01 Aug 06 - 07:36 AM
freda underhill 01 Aug 06 - 07:57 AM
beardedbruce 01 Aug 06 - 08:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,zac 01 Aug 06 - 08:46 AM
Amos 01 Aug 06 - 09:04 AM
bobad 01 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,ifor 01 Aug 06 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,david 01 Aug 06 - 12:25 PM
bobad 01 Aug 06 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,neil 01 Aug 06 - 12:35 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Aug 06 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,hugo 01 Aug 06 - 03:06 PM
freda underhill 01 Aug 06 - 04:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Aug 06 - 05:04 PM
robomatic 01 Aug 06 - 05:05 PM
beardedbruce 01 Aug 06 - 05:38 PM
GUEST,walt 01 Aug 06 - 06:18 PM
Peace 01 Aug 06 - 11:57 PM
GUEST,Simon 02 Aug 06 - 01:10 AM
GUEST,garry 02 Aug 06 - 01:33 AM
GUEST,yanno 02 Aug 06 - 01:35 AM
GUEST,seth 02 Aug 06 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,hugo 02 Aug 06 - 05:09 AM
Bunnahabhain 02 Aug 06 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,JOSH 02 Aug 06 - 06:51 AM
GUEST 02 Aug 06 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,josh 02 Aug 06 - 12:58 PM
GUEST 02 Aug 06 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 02 Aug 06 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,james 02 Aug 06 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,james 03 Aug 06 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,neil 03 Aug 06 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,jim 03 Aug 06 - 08:01 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 03 Aug 06 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,kirk 03 Aug 06 - 12:47 PM
C. Ham 03 Aug 06 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,JOSH..to peace 03 Aug 06 - 06:06 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 03 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM
robomatic 04 Aug 06 - 01:46 AM
GUEST,Rachel 04 Aug 06 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,tina 04 Aug 06 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,Yarrow 04 Aug 06 - 07:46 AM
C. Ham 04 Aug 06 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,walt 04 Aug 06 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,Hezbollah statement 04 Aug 06 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 07 Aug 06 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,Old Guy 07 Aug 06 - 09:27 PM
number 6 08 Aug 06 - 04:39 PM
DougR 09 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM
dianavan 25 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM
dianavan 25 Aug 06 - 08:32 PM
Subject: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 03:50 PM
Damn it I used to be really quite pro-Israel but it is hard to see justification for the current Israel attacks on the infrastructure and civilian population of Gaza in retribution for the armed wing of a political party (or maybe a terrorist group or two) kidnapping a serving Israeli soldier.
It's a bit like it would have been if the UK had bombed Dublin after the IRA got Mountbatten, and surely armed forces are legitimate targets aren't they, unlike civilians.
Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Maybe they're trying to sabotage this effort...
Hamas, Fatah agree on plan that would implicitly recognize Israel
The timing is perfect.
From: Bunnahabhain
The Israeli reaction does seem excessive. Some analysis is suggesting the main problem is internal Israeli politics. The Prime Minister is not percived to be strong on security, so when something like this kidnapping happens, he has no choice but to react strongly, regardless of if this huge response, or some careful behind the scenes diplomacy would be more likley to recover the soldier.
I also think CarolC is correct. This was probably planned, or at least timed, to sabotage the recoginition of Israel.
Yeah, and Isreal kidnapped and killed their own citizens. Cut me a break here.
Israel had bombed several civilians (a whole family) on a beach in Gaza during the days just before the Israeli soldier and settler were kidnapped by Palestinians. That was what the Palestinians who kidnapped them were responding to, and why they kidnapped them. Israel's timing is impeccable. Always has been.
"But Mum! He hit me back first!"
From: robomatic
I believe Israel denied responsibility for the beach bombing. Wouldn't be the first time Arabs blew up their own either by mistake, duplicity, or poor aim.
Attacking Israelis on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is an act of war. The Israelis want their captured soldier back.
The story that Fatah and Hamas have contrived an 'implicit' recognition of Israel (within pre-1967 borders) is leaning over so far backwards to find 'recognition' that you are facing your butt.
And we ain't in pre-1967 conditions.
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:43 AM
this comment from today's Sydney morning herald -
June 30, 2006 - 10:07AM
Palestinian militants had agreed to a conditional release of the kidnapped Israeli soldier, but Israel had not yet accepted their terms, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said in remarks published today. In an interview with Egypt's leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, Mubarak said "Egyptian contacts with several Hamas leaders resulted in preliminary, positive results in the shape of a conditional agreement to hand over the Israeli soldier as soon as possible to avoid an escalation".
"But agreement on this has not yet been reached with the Israeli side," Mubarak said.
The president said he had asked Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert "not to hurry" the military offensive in Gaza, but to "give additional time to find a peaceful solution to the problem of the kidnapped soldier".
I put up a thread for an obituary of an Israeli politican who died earlier in the month. He was a left winger who had instituted the kibbutzim movement, and who was opposed to the occupation of Gaza. How different things could be if people like that had achieved leadership in Israel.
and now there's a catch 22 situation:
Three sides hostage to soldier's abduction
Ed O'Loughlin, smh, June 30, 2006 (excerpts)
PALESTINIAN militants, having achieved their dream of capturing an Israeli soldier alive, cannot now release with him without getting something substantial from Israel in return. Otherwise they will lose face. The Israeli Government, which, like every other government in the world, likes to say it will never negotiate with terrorists, cannot give in to demands for it to free some or all of at least 8000 Palestinian prisoners in return for Corporal Gilad Shalit. Otherwise it will lose face.
The Palestinian Authority's moderate chairman, Mahmoud Abbas, cannot use his supposed control over the Palestinian security forces to have them find and free the captured tank gunner from his hiding place in Gaza. To do so would be to confirm the accusation often levelled at the Fatah party by rival groups during the 12 years that it controlled the authority: that it works for Israel, not for the Palestinians. And then Mr Abbas would probably lose more than his face.
As for the authority's new ruling party, Hamas, nearly all of its ministers and parliamentarians from the West Bank and East Jerusalem are in Israeli prisons, having been rounded up on Wednesday night in what Israel claimed was not a hostage-taking exercise but an investigation into terrorist offences.
But having abducted most of the authority's political leaders, the shaky new government of the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, will find it difficult to release them, or to pull its tanks out of Rafah - or to halt its bombing of civilian infrastructure in Gaza - without being able to show its people that it got something in return. Otherwise it will lose face.
And so on and dismally on...
From: GUEST,ifor
The people of Gaza have been held hostage by Israel for many years.Gaza is surrounded by the might of Israeli forces who control its entry points,its air space,the coastal waters and its land borders.
For over three decades the Israeli military illegally and brutally occupied Gaza.Many of the Palestinian Gazans were refugees from the land which is now Israel.
Gaza has been bombed or shelled on an almost daily basis since Israel evacuated illegal settlers in 2005.
Palestinian civilians have been killed,the border with Egypt has been closed down and Palestinian militants have been assassinated.
The Palestinians are demanding the freeing of women and children held prisoner Israeli jails .
Israel intends to inflict a bitter revenge on Gaza ...and the killing and retribution will continue until Palestine is free.
As I said - from what I once heard in a public place from a couple of little kids...
"So WHO started it!"
"He did!"
"But he hit me back first, Mum!"
Except for the IDF's whitewash of the incident, all of the evidence points to the IDF as the responsible party. And it wasn't just the civilians on the beach. It was also the civilians killed in the air raid on a civilian neighborhood, and the ongoing bombing in civilian areas of Gaza that Israel has been engaging in since its withdrawal from there. If it was just the one incidednt, you and the IDF might be believable, robomatic, but in the context of the many, many bombings of civilians by the IDF in Gaza, you (and they) just aren't.
Attacking Israelis on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is an act of war.
And attacking Palestinians on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is also an act of war. Unless you don't consider Palestinians to be human beings, in which case, you might just see it as the equivalent of squashing a bug. Clearly, that's how the government of Israel sees it.
It was a step in the right direction. Obviously, the government of Israel thinks it's a step toward peace. If they didn't, they wouldn't be working so hard to stop it.
CarolC you are lumping many different events together in this post, whereas earlier you referred to the single attack, if that is what it was, on the beach. If you stick to that issue, I repeat that Israel denied her forces were behind that attack. You apparently do not accept that denial. I believe when I state the facts I maintain my believability, since I did not actually witness the events and am not a direct witness, (and I suspect you are similar to me in that respect).
You are confusing quite a lot of issues here. Many attacks made by Israel on Palestinian targets are admitted by Israel, typically in trying to hit a known terrorist figure. You are attempting to broadbrush a very nasty issue, that of terrorists hiding "in plain site" among their own civilian population. Does this make the Israelis terrorists also, or does it make the Palestinian militants victimizers of their own people like bank robbers who hide behind hostages? As for considering people to be bugs, that is a creation of your own imagination in an attempt to gain forum debate points.
You are casting the government of Israel as a character in your own play by seeking to state their motivation. This says more about your motivation than Israel's. I heard the news of the 'implicit' recognition of Israel and had one main reaction: "Here we go again, more of the non-denial denial" The new Palestinian rulers are once again trying to wheedle material support from all sides by letting the world hear what it wishes to hear. This is very well worn step in an old direction trod many years by Arafat.
The Israeli army has been pounding the Palestinian people for decades from Gaza to the West Bank,from Beirut to Jenin. The Israeli army has bombed and shelled civilians, demolished thousands of homes and cut down orchards, built an apartheid wall ,set up dozens of checkpoints to keep the Palestinians under its armed fist.
It has shelled and ransacked refugee camps and built illegal Israeli settlements in hundreds of locations on stolen land. The Israeli have stolen water and the children of Palestine are suffering appalling malnutrition while ambulances have been shot up and their clinics and health centres have been wrecked.
Thousands of Palestinians have been imprisoned . During the intifada the Israeli military specialised in breaking the limbs of Palestinian teenagers.
But still the Palestinians refuse to give up!Free Palestine!
CarolC you are lumping many different events together in this post, whereas earlier you referred to the single attack, if that is what it was, on the beach. If you stick to that issue, I repeat that Israel denied her forces were behind that attack.
We have much more reason to expect that it is Israel who is lying in this case rather than the Palestinians. And the other cases that I "lumped" together with this one support my contention. That is why I mentioned them in the last post, but not in the previous one. They are in support of my contention that it is most likely the government of Israel that is lying, but not in support of my previous point, which is why I didn't use them previously.
Many attacks made by Israel on Palestinian targets are admitted by Israel, typically in trying to hit a known terrorist figure.
A convenient excuse, but if you look at the timing of the attacks against the background of the peace initiatives that are in play at the time, there is a very clear pattern of the government of Israel using violence against Palestinians as a way to sabotage any peaceful solution to the problem of Israel's occupation and/or blockade of Palestinian territory.
You are attempting to broadbrush a very nasty issue, that of terrorists hiding "in plain site" among their own civilian population.
What a ridiculous thing to say. Where the hell are they going to live? They are living in the area that they have available to them. They belong there. Israel does not have any business concerning themselves with where these people live. If Israel wants to end the violence that is being directed against it by others, all it needs to do is end its far more numerous and far more devastating acts of aggression against others.
You are casting the government of Israel as a character in your own play by seeking to state their motivation
Hardly. The patterns quite evident. They don't require me to point them out. My motivation is the promotion of human rights for eveyone.
The motivation of the government of Israel, and apparently your motivation as well, is to clear all of the Palestinians off of the tiny bit of land they have remaining to them.
"clear all of the Palestinians off of the tiny bit of land they have remaining to them"
Yeah, so they bloody should too - that big old hairy guy up in the clouds SAID it was their's, didn't he?
Yeah, Right
End The Unjust Jewish Occupation Of Arab Lands
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 12:06 AM
So, Turkey, Iran, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, and, uh, fucking Armenia are "Arab lands," now? And how short was your bus, robomatic?
---Lepus Rex
So the State of Israel is trying to take back Gaza? This is clearly best achived by pulling the settlers off the land, in the face of some determined opposition, and withdrawing the army? And building this massive great wall to divide up two bits of land that you're intending to keep( The exact line of the wall is not relevant )
A wall to divide 'them' and 'us' makes some sense. Please explain how a wall to divide 'us' and 'us' does? Anyone?
Reply to Bunnahabhain,
To deal with the question of Gaza first. The Israeli simply could not sustain its occupation of Gaza which has a population of over a million Palestinians most of whose families fled there ,or were pushed out,from the towns and cities which are now part of Israel.
Some 8000 right wing armed zionist settlers built fortified enclaves in Gaza protected by the Israeli army. These paramilitaries and the Israeli state controlled the water supplies,the checkpoints and most of the sea front.Gaza was chopped up into zones and to go from one area to another was extremely difficult and time consuming for the Palestinians who were humiliated on a daily basis .An Israeli pullout was inevitable and it duly came last year.
Now Israel seeks to control Gaza at arms length. It still controls the border with Egypt and the air space and coastal waters.Gaza's international airport is now wrecked and closed down.Gaza is shelled on a daily basis and dozens of its people including women and infants have ben killed or wounde since the official withdrawal.Last week the Israeli destroyed its power plant leaving Gaza sweltering without electricity.
The apartheid wall is massive and cuts in to the illegally occupied West Bank.It is another massive land grab by the Zionists.It divides Palestinian farmers from their lands and villages from their hinterland.It again makes life intolerable for the Palestinian peoplewho are effectively penned in like cattle by soldiers with tanks and machine guns.Israel is making facts on the ground and seeks to reduce the Palestinian areas to "bantustan" enclaves with all entry and exit points controlled by the state of Israel.
When the Palestinian West Bank was invaded in 1967 there were no Israeli settlers, now there are hundreds of thousands od Zionists in the occupied territories stealing and occuping land and terrorizing the Palestinians with their armoured bulldozers and tanks and heavily armed paramilitaries.
But the Palestinians are stubborn and have nowhere to go .The occupation of Palestine by Zionists has poisoned relationsships in the region and has poisoned Israeli society itself.It is now the most militarised society in the world .
Makes lots of sense, if you really intend to take it ALL - just gives you room for a defensive fall back position, like the Russians, but shorter... :-)
The distruction of the civilian infrastructure of Gaza is a collective punishement, no doubt about it. Israel has gone far too far. But when you think about from the Israeli point of view, what have they go to lose?
Just about anything the Israelis do seems to result in more violence, and worldwide disapproval. If you're damned anyway, you're free to do almost anything, and the desire for retribution must be enormous.
To cease reacting to violence and provocation would take far more trust and patience than either side have, and I cannot see how this cycle will ever end.
I'd not though of that Foolestroupe. After All, Gaza is what, half the width of of a Modern Artillery piece's range?
BTW: Yasser Arafat International Airport has been wrecked and shut for four years. Old news maybe?
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 02:51 PM
World wide disapproval of Israel? Come off it.It is armed and funded by the greatest superpower _the USA. It was made a regional heavyweight power because of the huge amounts of arms and sophisticated equipment delivered by America.
Then there is the backing of Israel by Europe and the EU nations, another massively important economic and trading block.
What is different is that the image of plucky litttle Israel has been tarnished over the past few decades with, for example ,its invasion of the Lebanon and the deruction by Israel's fascist allies of the Sabra and Shatilla Palestinian refugee camps in the early 1980's. A massacre for which the Israeli man o war Arial Sharon was directly responsible for. The Palestinian uprisings of the late 1980's pitted unarmed civilians fighting with stones against a vicious and extremely well armed Israeli military and as the pictures were flahed around the world support for the Palestinians grew and drained away for Israel.
The liberation of the Palestinian people will arrive one day and will do so when the peoples of the Middle East give practical support to the Palestinian struggle.The road to freedom goes through Cairo. But the Egyptian support will not come from the brutal Mubharak govt.
"Gaza is what, half the width of of a Modern Artillery piece's range?"
But when your opponent is basically reduced to what is similar to throwing stones - the range of those little rockets is very small - the more distance, the better.
When technology is limited (especially due to lack of financial resources), height and distance are still big military advantages.
So in other words, you will utilize only factoids that support your contention at any one time, and you will not hesitate to pull in any other factoids (interpreted by those who are biased in the same way as yourself) to support your contention, whatever that may be. In this case you are using your own bias as 'evidence'!
The timing you wish to blame on the Israelis can be blamed just as equally on the Hamas faction which does not wish to be caught in a compromising situation, and has used terror in the past in exactly that manner. Leave us not forget that Abu Abbas was holding the Hamas government's feet to the fire in order to have them adopt the existing Fatah position on the recognition of Israel. This state of affairs suits Hamas most of all.
You are continuing the broadbrush. If by 'they' you mean terrorists, you are simply utilizing the point I made, that 'they' are making victims of the non-terrorists they live amongst, but you are holding it not against the terrorists, but against the Israelis. That's like defending the wife beater who blames his wife for making him angry. "He beat her in her own kitchen, but where else was he going to live?"
Quite laudable. Now if you can only include the legitimate rights of the bulk of Israelis and Palestinians who seek a peaceful solution within your purview....
There y'go again. At least you said 'apparently'. My reference to the "Jewish occupation of Arab lands" drawing above was precisely to remind you who is occupying a tiny bit of land remaining to them, and it has just got smaller as the Israelis formally vacated the Gaza territory.
"He beat her in her own kitchen, but where else was he going to live?"
So who was in the kitchen first? Que Bono?
If you're implying that Sonny beat Cher or his second wife........???
"the Israelis formally vacated the Gaza territory. "
Does withdrawal mean flying Israeli jets fly low over the land at night, causing sonic booms, sealing off the Gaza Strip so no food, bottled water or fuel supplies are coming in, destroying the power station, destroying the office of the Palestinian prime minister by air strike?
By ignoring offers to negotiate on the return of that Israeli soldier, the Israeli government shows that the only solution acceptable it is a military solution.
what kind of a solution is tunneling into Israeli territory, killing two soldiers, kidnapping the third?
Not to carp about it, it is a sad situation, just don't keep blaming the one side that voluntarilly already got out.
Hey Freda Underhill, who writes your material? Is it CarolC or Dianavan?
Israel is determined to take more and more land from the Palestinians -but in the West Bank to the north of Gaza.This is in line with Zionist expansionist policies and it has the military might to achieve its aim of a greater Israel.
However, that depends on cowing the Palestinians and crushing their willingness to fight back.Around a million live in concentrated numbers in Gaza which makes it difficult to invade, subdue and hold.The West Bank with its more scattered and less concentrated population is much easier to invade and intimidate hence the capture of Palestinian representatives in the camps and towns of the West Bank.
But let us alays remember that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land and illegally oppressing its people with the bulldozing of thousands of houses,the stealing of land, the use of tanks,armoured bulldozers and snipers against civilians and the use of checkpoints to daily humiliate and control the Palestinian people.......But it will ultimately fail. The Palestinians will not live like slaves to the Zionists ...and there will one day be a free Palestine.
GUEST: 02:05 PM
I did it myself, said the little red hen.
Ifor, can you accept the existance of the State of Isreal in any way shape or form? Not asking you to accept its right to occupy land up to this specific boundary or that, or to undertake any particular action, just if you can accept it at all...
Eliahu Asheri--he wasn't a soldier.
The various organizations don't give a shit who they kill. I am so fucking sick of hearing about Islam and its putrid justifications for crimes against humanity. It is a sick religion used by sick people. You people want the Israelis to sit back and what? Wait for some UN to enforce a peace? The Palestinians have waged a great propaganda war. The end result will be the use of nuclear weapons. Then NO one will have a fucking homeland.
884 people have been murdered and 5932 have been injured in Israel as a result of Palestinian violence and terror attacks between September 2000 and October 2003, according to the Israel Defense Forces.
Lwet's talk about the peaceful Allah.
Reply to Bunnahabhain
What a question!You ask if I can accept the state of Israel in any way shape or form?A little recap for you.
Israel was proclaimed in 1948 on land stolen from the Palestinians.The Palestinians were expelled in huge numbers as the Zionist terror gangs and paramilataries were unleashed at places like Deir Yassin where hundreds of them, men women and infants were butchered with knives and guns.
The UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte who was sent in to enforce the partition plan was murdered by the Stern Gang [Yithak Shamir was a member ].
Since 1948 the Palestinians have been hounded,terrorised and slaughtered by one of the most sophisticated military machines in the world.
They have been penned in,denied basic civil or human rights and pauperised.
They have even been murdered in their refugee camps by the thousand.The Israeli general who organised the slaughter of the women and children and old people in the Sabra and Shatilla camps was Arial Sharon [ a man steeped in blood if ever there was one ].
The state of Israel was founded on Palestinian land .The one million Palestinians in Gaza came from the cities and towns and villages to the north in what is now Israel.They have no right of return. It is only through their bitter struggle that they have been recognised across the world as a people...Golda Meir even denied the existence of the Palestinians.
Zionism has poisoned the Middle East.It is a tool of US imperialism.
There is a Jewish tradition in the Middle East which owes nothing to Zionism and eventually only a socialist Palestine will be able to offer any sense of security to all the people of Palestine .Zionism ,by contrast, is sectarian ,militaristic expansionist and hurtling down a deadend to more wars,more conflicts and more disasters.
Your post is bullshit, ifor.
Zionism stems from the late 1800s. I think you dislike Jews. Based on what you write, it looks like that. Covering it with a load of crap still leaves it being hatred.
But feel free to prove me wrong. Let's hear some condemnation of Palestinian terror attacks against Israeli civilians.
I was looking at a small part of the sequence of events. I may be wrong but I do not think it has been shown that the government of Gaza or the people in general of Gaza were involved in the killing of Israeli soldiers or the kidnapping of an Isreli soldier. I understand it to have been rather a military wing of Hamas (as distinct from the government as the IRA or "Real IRA" are from Sinn Fein or the government of the Republic of Ireland) that did the deed.
If I am right in that then the destruction by Israel of the Gaza civil infrastructure and the seizure by Israel of members of the Hamas government are without justification and are acts of international aggression and acts of war.
I understand it to have been rather a military wing of Hamas (as distinct from the government as the IRA or "Real IRA" are from Sinn Fein or the government of the Republic of Ireland) that did the deed.
It is possible to view the armed wing of the Governing party as either completely unconnected to the state at all, or for all intents and purposes, another branch of the armed forces, as they are a milliatry force under the control of the governing party, and so under the same control as the regular armed forces.
In my opinion, the truth in this case lies somewhere between the two extremes
They are, regardless of the exact status of the hamas armed wings.
eventually only a socialist Palestine will be able to offer any sense of security to all the people of Palestine
So IFOR, if I'm reading your post right, Israel will be a legitimate state when it becomes a socialist paradise, treating those of all faiths and backgrounds equally, and they all live happily side by side, forgetting that they've been killing each other for the last 60 years.
Some might consider this a little optimistic....
From: Wolfgang
It must be comforting to live in a black and white world like Ifor does.
From: Susu's Hubby
Maybe this will shed a little light on the subject. Why don't we all read about what is being argued over and then come back to discuss what's happening.
A little lengthy but a good, balanced read.
Accusations of anti semitism are false.I have been opposed to racism and anti semitism all my life .
However, Zionists and their supporters are unable to face the truth of the history of Zionism, Israel and the Palestinian people.
When they are reminded about the terror tactics used by Zionists and the Israeli state itself they are often quick to respond with wild accusations of anti semitisms despite many of their most trenchant critics being Jewish radicals like Noam Chomsky,Tony Cliff and Abram Leon.
Take Tony Cliff for example, he was born in in Palestine in 1917 into a staunchly zionist family.As a teenager he became an opponent of Zionism after seeing the thuggery dished out by Zionist squads against Palestinian workers.At a subsequent Zionist meeting the teenage Cliff [ or Yigael Gluckstein as he was then known ] was beaten up and threatened with his life for opposing these thugs.
Zionism began in Europe in the 1880s because of the anti semitism faced by the Jewish people in the developing capitalist countries.
However, as Jewish socialist writer John Rose explains in his book THE MYTHS OF ZIONISM there is an older Jewish political tradition than Zionism that drew its strength and inspiration from a sense of universality and respect for learning.From their history as a persecuted people it drew an internationalist perspective and outlook with a respect and sensitivity for all persecuted people.That tradition survives despite Zionism's attempt to suffocate it.
Think back to Apartheid South Africa....one of the biggest supporters of that evil regime was Israel.
My beliefs have nothing to do with living in a black and white world but have everything to do with supporting the oppressed against the oppressor...the victim against the bully.
If you mean that, then work for the overthrow of the USA.
There is a USA I thoroughly support...it is the USA that has a long and honourable democratic and radical tradition.
The USA of those like Harriet Tubman and John Brown who opposed slavery. Those in the USA who fought for racial justice like Paul Robeson, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and James Baldwin.
The USA of the anti Vietnam war campaigners who opposed the war from inside the military in some cases and in civilian life in many instances. The USA of migrant workers, radical New York ,the labour unions and the workers for native American rights.
I certainly don't support Bush and the neo cons,the chickenhawks,the arms dealers and Big Oil.Do you?
I agree with that, ifor. There are aspirations, hopes and dreams worthy of support. However, I do not see those ideals being 'held to' by suicide bombers who kill kids in busses. I also do not see those ideals being put forth by anyone in the mid-East. Not Israel, not the Arab countries, not Iran, not the USA, not the so-called Palestinians.
From: C. Ham
ifor, who claims not to be anti-Semitic, only anti-Zionist, also invokes the name of Martin Luther King.
I guess ifor is unaware of Dr. King's support for Zionism and the fact that Dr. King was among the first to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. In 1968, speaking at Harvard University, Dr. King stated:
"When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking anti-Semitism."
Source: "The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel" by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969, p. 24.
From: beardedbruce
ifor,
"The one million Palestinians in Gaza came from the cities and towns and villages to the north in what is now Israel.They have no right of return"
And if you bothered reading anything that did not apriori match your opinion, you might have noted that, while about 640,000 Moslem Palestinians were displaced by the creation of Isreal in 1948, over 820,000 Jews were driven out of Arab nations. Will you give them back their lands, or do you insist that Jews are not as worthy as Moslems?
The Nation of Israel was mandated by the League of Nations post WW 1 in the same treaties that formed Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. Originally, the "Jewish Homeland" was to be the ENTIRE reagion of Tranwsjordan- Present day Jordan, West Bank , and Israel.
Look at what the Jews were given , and THEN tell me about the stealing of land from a peop[le.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine
http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp
http://focusonjerusalem.com/maproom.html
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1_british_mandate.php
And the UN partition, which the Arabs REFUSAED to accept.
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/part.html
"not the so called Palestinians" you say....you are refering to the indiginous population of Palestine which had been rooted in that country since biblical and Roman times. Its's not that I call them Palestinians they call themselves Palestinians.
These are the people who lived in that land before it was hijacked by the Zionists .The Zionists who stole their homes and farms ,razed their villages and expelled the Palestinians in droves.
Let it also be noted that politicians like Lord Balfour who proclaimed the necessity for Jewish homeland in Palestine were deeply anti semitic.
The holocaust was commited against the Jewish people by the nazis in Europeand yet it is the Palestinians who right have had to pay for a Zionist homeland with the loss of their land,their cities and their livelihoods.
The Palestinians are mainly muslim but there is a substantial christian Palestinian community that has also suffered at the hands of the Israelis.
It is a bit sickening reading these posts from the Zionists who cannot even bring themselves to call the Palestinians by that name.The Zionists have done their utmost to drive them out of existence but the Palestinians refuse to go gently.
Zionism has poisoned the Middle East ....during the Middle Ages and up to quite recent pre Zionist times there have been lengthy periods when Jews and Palestinians and Arabs have lived alongside each other in peace. While the Zionists keep bombing and shelling, stealing land and humiliating the Palestinian people there will be resistance and struggle.
From: GUEST,ifor,
Anti Zionist Jews ,both secular and religious met with Muslim academics at a conference in London last week called AGAINST ZIONISM :JEWISH PERSPECTIVES CONFERENCE.
The conference roundly condemned Israel's attack on Gaza.Dr Uri Davies an academic called Israel's actions in attacking power supplies a "horrific crime" while Prof Yakov Rabkin said "I am saddened but not surprised by Israel's actions in Gaza.
According to the Jewish socialist John Rose ,author of the Myths of Zionism "The meeting was important because it showed Muslims that there is an anti Zionist perspective inside the Jewish community.
ifor"
So what? Many of those people figure that to achieve Armageddon, the Stae of Israel has to cease to exist. The coming of the Messiah can't happen until then. You seem to be quoting lunatic fringes on both sides.
No, I just want to know what entitles Israel to attack a civilian population and to intern foreign heads of state on the pretext that an INDEPENDENT (like the IRA, remember) set of people have kidnapped an Israeli soldier.
Nothing. The same nothing that entit;les 'Palestinians' to attack unarmed Israelis.
"what entitles Israel...to intern foreign heads of state..."(?)
And just which 'state' are you talking about, Richard Bridge?
"For decades Palstinian lives have been sacrificed to create space for Jewish lives on Palestinian land renamed Jewish land.For over a generation the attempt to construct a Zionist Jewish identity explicitly denied Palestinian identity. The long confrontation with the Palestinians have fostered those not infrequent Zionist outbursts that have parallels with the genocidal racism and unbridled use of violence from the nazi era."
These words were written by a Jewish writer John Rose and go to the heart of what the Zion ists have done.
Dr Baruch Goldstein,the American born Zionist settler who opened fire with an assault rifle issued by the Israeli army killed 29 Palestinian worshippers at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron on the illegally occupied West Bank is hailed as a visionary in some Zionist circles.
Such is the extent to which Zionism has poisoned relations between Palestinians and their oppressors.
From: Peace
So go fight for the friggin' Palestinians.
On one side you have the one of the most powerful and most technologically advanced armies in the world armed with weapons like the latest jet air to ground fighters,apache helicopters,modern tanks, armoured bulldozers and even quite a few nuclear weapons [Mordecai Vanunu is still not being allowed to leave Israel despite renouncing his Israeli citizenship ] .
On the other hand the Palestiniand are fighting back with rifles,some homemade rockets and stones.
The Palestinians have been expelled,slaughtered ,humiliated and imprisoned and yet still they rise....and that seems to piss off those on this website who are their apologists.
last line of the above posting should read ...and that seems to piss off those on this website who are apologists for the Zionists....
Danger, pedant alert. Elected government ministers if you prefer.
German soldiers were legitimate targets of the resistance, weren't they?
The difference here is the difference between a kidnapper of a soldier being caught and fairly tried, on the one hand (not occurring at present) and innocent civilians and non-complicit government officials being targetted - rather in the same way the Gestapo would select at random and murder members of a French village in which German troops were killed by the resistance.
Attempting to paint Goldstein as a Zionist visionary or hero is modern day blood libel. Ifor is so full of shit you can actually see it leaking from his pores.
As noted on Wikipedia, Goldstein's actions were immediately condemned by the Israeli government, the mainstream Israeli parties and the Israeli populace in general. Spokespeople for all the organized denominations of Judaism denounced his act as immoral and as terrorism. The Kach movement, to which he belonged, was outlawed. The victims of the shooting received financial compensation.
In an address to the Knesset the Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin denounced the US-born Goldstein as a "foreign implant" and an "errant weed." He continued, "We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism." Binyamin Netanyahu, head of the Likud party declared, "This was a despicable crime. I express my unequivocal condemnation.
Israel does not recognise the presence of its troops and settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as an occupation, and when former Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon used the O-word to describe what was happening in Gaza, he was forced to rephrase by his own attorney-general.
If Israel recognised that the West Bank and Gaza were occupied, rather than "disputed", two things would follow. First, the Geneva Convention would apply fully to those territories, making it illegal for settler families to move into them and for thousands of Palestinian men, women and children to be taken out to face indefinite "security detention" in Israeli jails. Second, instead of simply talking about a "viable Palestinian state", Israel would have formally acknowledged the existence of a separate entity west of the River Jordan.
From: GUEST,orif
The Jewish people have regained their homeland at the expense of their own blood and toil.
The indigenous population, many of whom were Jews, had the option of accepting this fact. When many of them allied with the surrounding pan nationalist Arab countries and tried to kill the Israeli State, they set in motion the circumstances that led to their own suffering.
As to some long-lived connection to the past, a load of Turkish land grants and certificates means nothing.
They were squatters then, they are squatters now.
That's how the Arab countries feel about them, they are useful as long as they irritate Israel. If they are not doing that, the hell with them.
Reply to C Ham,
My comments about the Zionist mass murderer Dr Baruch Goldstein are correct and no amount of villification by you can alter the facts which have been widely reported in Israel and indeed on Wikipaedia itself.
Baruch killed 29 muslim worshippers and injured over a hundred others before being killed himself by survivors of the massacre.He was armed with an Israeli assault weapon and dressed in army uniform.
His tombstone became a pilgrimage site for those with right wing leanings .His death was officially classed as "murder".
The local Religious Council of Kiryat Arba declared the his gravesite a memorial and a proper cemetery and his supporters then installed sidewalks,spotlights and candles etc.
One battle between the police and these extreme Zionist supporters lasted several hours !
A support group "The Friends of Goldstein"hold celebrations and yearly feasts in commemoration of this killer near the gravesite.
This commemoration certainly justifies my comment that he is hailed as a visionary in some Zionist circles.
Avi Shlaim has written at length about the poisoning of Jewish and Palestinian relationships in his excellent book "The Iron Wall ",Penguin 2000.
Would those of you who claim to so support the cause of the Palestinians please GO there and lend a hand? You are doing nothing from your computer.
And stop with the shite about Israelis having stolen the land, etc, That is claptrap. The Palestinians have been pawns for the surrounding Arab countries for decades. You who claim to support Palestinians use them as pawns, too. Isn't there enough oil money to build a damned country for Palestinians? Isn't there? But no. Racist bastards would rather slam Israelis for having a homeland. You hate Jews. Say so, get it off your chests and FO.
You will find that the Zionists did indeed steal and grab Palestinian land when the state of Israel was declared.In fact it hijacked an entire homeland from the Palestinian people in order to establish a Zionist state.What did that mean ?
It meant that hundreds of thousands of Palestinian were expelled because of the terrorism of the Zionist armed militias like the Irgun.
In the village of Deir Yassin for example around 350 Palestinian villagers were butchered with knives or shot dead or blown up with grenades.This massacre occured on the 9th April 1948.Those who committed the mass murder were led by a Zionist leader called Menachim Begin who went on to be the Israeli Prime Minister when the Lebanon was invaded in 1982.
The Zionists went on to steal land, houses , shops, olive groves businesses and whole towns and cities like Jaffa and Acre .
The refugees, who have never been allowed to return and their children and grandchildren, are the Palestinians who are now being bombed, strafed and blockaded in Gaza and in the towns and refugee camps of the illegally occupied West Bank.
The Zionists claim that Palestine was only ever inhabited by a few nomads and was mainly desert.Nothing could be further from the truth!
The Jaffa orange which has come to symbolise Israeli agriculture was grown in Palestinian fruit groves and orchards stolen from Palestinians who had tilled them for centuries .The orange groves of Jaffa go back to the beginning of the 18th century and in 1880 some 30 million were harvested there with many exported to Europe.
Saying it over and over again still leaves it being bullshit, ifor.
Jew baiters and race haters
Ain't going to change my world
I'll see your orange and raise you a heart medication, original space research, state supported medical care, and the relocation of hundreds of thousands of displaced people from Arab lands.
I think the Palestinian people, penned in like cattle behind their apartheid wall, half starved in Gaza ,stacked up in their thousands in Israeli jails and forever denied the right to return to their homes and farms will be less than impressed by Israel's "original space research".
So I take it you'll be leaving North America soon then? In the interest of returning the land to those your ancestors stole it from?
Uh, the line to leave forms to the right.
From: GUEST,guest native
I looked up to find out what a terroist is I also looked up soldrer. The word are easy reversable
ifor is a Brit of some sort. Thank God!
It seems wrong to me that many of the American born and raised armed right wing Zionist paramilitaries living in the illegal Zionist settlements on the West Bank have free and unfettered right of entry to Israel while Palestinians born within the borders of Israel and now living as refugees in exile have no such right.
The people you are calling Palestinian have reproduced in record numbers with the help of Israeli medicine. Some genocide. They are penned up as you call it due to their leadership being unable to arrive at a peaceful solution and having tried most every other solution including the election of a government with war as its only national solution. When not 'penned up' they have made very useful citizens in surrounding Arab countries and the West, except for instances of being killed in large numbers in Lebanon and Jordan by their fellow Arabs.
I didn't think Brits were that clueless. Live and learn I guess.
So, shall we discuss the British Empire?
"not a day goes by when the Sun doesn't set on the British Empire"
The Brits have the standard of living they do as a result of having had an Empire. Their exploitation of various peoples was terrible. Hey ifor, whatcha gotta say about that?
If they talk about the Balfour procumation they shoud read all of it. If people talk about god given them Palistine they should also note the people in the Bible comited every sin possible. Just read it
" while about 640,000 Moslem Palestinians were displaced by the creation of Isreal in 1948, over 820,000 Jews were driven out of Arab nations. Will you give them back their lands, or do you insist that Jews are not as worthy as Moslems?"
Since you have NOT responded to this, I will presume that you do consider that Jews are not as worthy as moslems.
YOU have defined yourself as a racist, bigoted individual.
From: GUEST,Tom
The violence unfolding between Israelis and Palestinians today is utterly without purpose. Israel has evacuated Gaza, and what does Hamas do? It doesn't put all its energy into building a nest for its young there — a decent state and society, with jobs. Instead, it launches hundreds of rockets into Israel.
The Palestinians could have a state on the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem tomorrow, if they and the Arab League clearly recognized Israel, normalized relations and renounced violence. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know Israel today. But those driving Palestinian politics seem determined to destroy Israel in its territory — even if it means destroying themselves in their own territory.
Right you are, Tom. I'd guess you read this excellent analysis from Time Magazine.
From the Times Magazine article cited above:
"...Before the eyes of the whole world, Israel left Gaza. Every Jew, every soldier, every military installation, every remnant of Israeli occupation was uprooted and taken away.
How do the Palestinians respond? What have they done with Gaza, the first Palestinian territory in history to be independent, something neither the Ottomans nor the British nor the Egyptians nor the Jordanians, all of whom ruled Palestinians before the Israelis, ever permitted? On the very day of Israel's final pullout, the Palestinians began firing rockets out of Gaza into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. And remember: those are attacks not on settlers but on civilians in Israel proper, the pre-1967 Israel that the international community recognizes as legitimately part of sovereign Israel, a member state of the U.N. A thousand rockets have fallen since.
For what possible reason? Before the withdrawal, attacks across the border could have been rationalized with the usual Palestinian mantra of occupation, settlements and so on. But what can one say after the withdrawal?
The logic for those continued attacks is to be found in the so-called phase plan adopted in 1974 by the Palestine National Council in Cairo. Realizing that they would never be able to destroy Israel in one fell swoop, the Palestinians adopted a graduated plan to wipe out Israel. First, accept any territory given to them in any part of historic Palestine. Then, use that sanctuary to wage war until Israel is destroyed."
Can anyone tell me where Israel is getting its oil from,it needs oil for their tanks
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
As Golda Meyer opined "the only time there will be peace between the Arabs and the Jews will be when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us"
http://countrystudies.us/israel/75.htm
Golda Meir was a bigot (and a racist). There will be peace in Palestine when Israelis learn to love their children more than they love what belongs to the Palestinians.
Gaza was never free. It may not have had settlers and soldiers in it, but Israel was still dropping bombs on it and killing a lot of civilians in the process, and it was still controling its borders, air space, and beaches, and as a result, its economy and autonomy.
Like there are no racist 'Palestinian' leaders? Hamas leaders?
Quite possibly so, Peace. But I don't see anyone quoting any racist remarks from them as if they said something profound and insightful, unlike the bigoted and racist Golda Meir, whose bigoted and racist remark has been quoted in this thread as if it is something profound and insightful.
No 'quite possibly' about it, Carol.
Mahathir told his audience, which included heads of state from an array of Islamic nations, "The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule the world by proxy: They get others to fight and die for them."
He also said the Jews invented "socialism, communism, human rights and democracy" to help them gain "control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power."
Some commentators have suggested that Mahathir's speech last week at the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference deserves a second reading, beyond the anti-Semitism that initially earned it headlines. They say the speech contains an important message about Muslim self-help.
The bottom line is that a country is strugging fot its very survival--namely Israel. I know you will say the asme about Palestine. But to suggest that either 'side' in this has clean hands is to be blind to the truth, IMO. And I happen to know that you see quite well.
Chairman Arafat expresses his opinions about the Jewish People - "I have no use for Jews" -1996
"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews."
Yasser Arafat, then head of the PLO and PA President - Private speech entitled "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel", Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996
Legitimate Criticism of Israel? 2000:
: "The covetous, racist, and hated Jew Shylock, who cut the [pound of] flesh from Antonio's chest with the knife of hatred, invades you with his money, his modern airplanes, his missiles, and his nuclear bombs.
Dr. 'Ali 'Aqleh 'Ursan, Chairman of the Arab Writers Association in Syria, Al-Usbu' Al-Adabi (Syria), February 5, 2000.
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP7200#_edn6
Well, there you go. Still, I don't see anyone who is arguing for human rights for Palestinians posting those kinds of things from Palestinian leaders as if they were good and legitimate things to say, unlike Golda Meir, who repeatedly gets trotted out in threads like this one as if that bigoted and racist remark was something profound and insightful.
Which, I think, tells us a lot about the mindsets of people who quote those kinds of things.
Those of us who advocate for human rights for Palestinians, at least recognize bigoted and racist language when it comes from Palestinian leaders. Many of those who argue against those of us who advocate for human rights for Palestinians do not recognize bigoted and racist language when it comes from Israeli leaders.
And that is why I will continue to point out the bigoted and racist nature of that remark every time I see someone using it as if it were not a bigoted and racist remark, as I have done in this thread.
Good. I agree you should.
CarolC you would not know a bigot from a realist, and you certainely dont know me.
"If we are criticized because we do not bow because we cannot compromise on the question 'To be or not to be,' it is because we have decided that, come what may, we are and we will be."
BTW, Dave's no bigot or racist.
Anyone who doesn't understand that the Palestinians are fighting for (and dying for) their children's homes, and their freedom, and their future (all things that we here in the US and you in Canada say we would fight and die for if needed), doesn't see Palestinians as human beings. Anyone who doesn't think the Palestinians have a right to fight for these things doesn't see Palestinians as human beings. People who don't see other human beings as human beings are bigots and racists.
You may not be a racist, Dave, but you don't seem to have the ability to recognize racism when it is displayed by those you endorse.
Israel Pulled out of Gaza, to the internationally recognised boundaries, but the Palastinian millitants took this as a sign of weakness, and carried on attacks from there.
The rockets they fire are not as powerful, or as long ranged as Israeli artillery, but they still kill people, mainly civilians. As a statement of intent, they are very powerful, and each one says that the Palastinian authorities either can not or will not stop attacks on civilians.
Are the Palastinian people helped by a Goverment of theirs that pays the families of suicide bombers? A bomber kills some more civilians on a bus, and Israel closes the borders for a week, so the Palastinians with jobs in israel can't work. An impoverised and hungry people are more likley to turn to violence, and it's violence that keeps them in that poverty.
CarolC, like Arafat, like Hamas, like the former supporters of pan arabic nationalism, do not see the "Palestinians" as people. They view them as a convenient club to beat about as long as it serves the purpose of aiding the destruction of Israel and embarassing the United States of America and the West.
CarolC, the Palestinian Authority and various Palestinian NGO's have been receiving substantial aid from the EU for some considerable time (to the tune of $640 million per year) - What have they done with it?
In Gaza, since Israel withdrew what have those whose responsibility it is to look after the "Palestinian" population's best interests and needs done for those people? Built roads? hospitals? schools? Initiated any major Government/Local Authority infrastructure projects that would create employment? Please tell us about them.
Likewise tell us about similar enterprises that would benefit the "Palestinian" people that have occurred on the West Bank. I do actually think you will find instances in the West Bank but few if any sponsored by the PA or by Hamas.
The "Palestinian" people are as leaderless now as they have ever been, they are regarded by you and the likes of you as just bricks in the wall, pawns in the game, to be kept in poverty and misery purely for the benefit of a political agenda. The elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people have it in their power to improve the lot of their people, they always have had that power. To translate that into something tangible only requires the will to proceed and the leadership to implement the actions required. Unfortunately for the people involved this also requires that their leaders look forwards to the future and what can be, not backwards at the past and what might have been.
Having been a part of the international effort to develop peace initiatives in the Middle East I do have an insight into the problems, and at least am not just an opinionated armchair quarterback analyst. There will be no peace for the Palestinians until they accept the fact that Israel is here to stay.
The Gaza strip is one place where they can get on with rebuilding a country, economy, and life for their children. The beaches are a great place to develop tourism and recreational facilities, but murder, civil warfare and continually attacking Israel will not promote such industry. The situation is just prolonging instilled hatred, violence and misery for each successive generation of Palestinian children. There is no future for them unless they break this cycle; and the international support for them is rapidly drying up.
Yours, Aye. Dave
This is wrong. Israel removed the settlers and the soldiers, but they did not end the blockade of Gaza or the control of Gaza's borders and air space. And they did not stop dropping bombs on Gazan civilians. Such behavior is hardly a sign of weakness, and it is legitimate to fight against being treated in this way. You would fight it too if you were in their shoes.
Hamas see the Palestinians as people. Arafat and the former supporters of pan Arabic nationalism... I have no idea whether or not they saw Palestinians as people. Your wording is confusing, but it looks like you might be saying that I don't see Palestinians as people. If so, that's an interesting rhetorical device, but it has no basis in any objective reality. People who believe in equal rights for everyone are recognising the humanity and "peopleness" of everyone. People who think that certain groups of people are entitled to fewer rights than others (like you, Teribus) do not see the groups they discriminate against as people.
Yes, all of those things... they built roads, hospitals, schools, and all of the other kinds of civil infrastructure that are needed to carry on the business of building a country. Israel has destroyed much of this civil infrastructure by bombing it. Same thing in the West Bank.
The "Palestinian" people are as leaderless now as they have ever been
They are regarded by you and the likes of you as just bricks in the wall, pawns in the game, to be kept in poverty and misery purely for the benefit of a political agenda.
This is pretty laughable, Teribus, and it shows how desperate you are to try to score points. It's the Israelis (with the help of people like you) who are keeping the Palestinians in poverty and misery. And it's people like you who are responsible for the deaths of all of the innocent civilians, both Palestinians as well as Israelis, that have resulted from the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the former occupation and current stranglehold and bombardment of Gaza. People like you are not only keeping the Palestinians in poverty and misery, but also keeping the Israelis in fear and uncertainty.
The elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people have it in their power to improve the lot of their people, they always have had that power.
This is bullshit. Israel has only one goal with regard to the Palestinians, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than a thousand years. Israel will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world. Everything else they do is just clever sleight of hand to distract your attention from their real agenda.
How much time have you spent inside the occupied areas, living along side of and listening to the Palestinians there, Dave? Until you've spent enough time in those areas to really know how the people there live, you are no more qualified to say you understand what's going on there than I am. Less qualified, in fact, because I, at least, have read what many of the people who do live there have to say about it. Clearly, you have not.
The Gaza strip is one place where they can get on with rebuilding a country, economy, and life for their children.
Not while Isreal is still dropping bombs on their children, and preventing them from having a viable economy through keeping a stranglehold on their borders and air space. That is what is prolonging the misery for the children of Gaza.
I wonder if, inher entire life, CarolC has ever had sexual relations outside of marriage. If so, according to Hamas, she deserves to be dead. If she were in Gaza or the West Bank and a member of her family killed her under those circumstances, it would be a matter of honor and they would not be prosecuted.
BTW, it wouldn't matter even if she were raped.
That's the kind of human rights exponents that CarolC has as her heroes.
CarolC I'm not sure you see the Palestinians as people, either.
No it isn't, GUEST. You are saying that the very women you pretend to care about (who are sometimes treated in that way, but hardly in every case), should be punished, kept in poverty and misery, and denied the same basic freedoms that you and I enjoy, just because some of the men in their midst are guilty of the things you describe.
The women who actually live there have said that, 1. They want Israel to leave the Palestinians alone to build their country, and 2. That the things Israel is doing to Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem are making it much more difficult for the women (and the men) of these areas to facilitate the kinds of changes that are needed to help eliminate the kinds of behaviors you have described. By supporting Israel's occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and its stranglehold on Gaza, you are helping to prolong Palestinian women's experience of the behaviors you mentioned.
People who believe in equal rights for everyone are recognising the humanity and "peopleness" of everyone. People who think that certain groups of people are entitled to fewer rights than others (like you, Teribus) do not see the groups they discriminate against as people.
I do not believe in equal rights for everyone. Should the criminal have the same rights as the homeowner they've distubed at 3 am? Should the six year old child have the same right to vote as her parents?
Sweeping statements like that, covering everything, without qualification, are generally very easy to dispute. Engage brain before typing, and insert a qualifier or two. A 'virtually all' or ' normally' such like should be all you need to prevent people like me going out to the exteme ends of your staments, and kicking holes in them.
Clearly you don't, robomatic. If you did, you wouldn't defend Israel's practice of treating them like they are not people.
Of course they should. The criminal should have the same access to impartial justice as the non-criminal. The six year old should have equal right to vote at the legal age as her parents did at the legal age.
Sweeping statements like that, covering everything, without qualification, are generally very easy to dispute.
You didn't dispute them. You distorted their meaning to try to make them fit your argument.
I distorted nothing, I merely asked some rhetorical questions. You inserted the context, or lack thereof, and decided that I was distorting something or other, when all I was doing was pointing out that generally, all embracing staements are either either wrong or facile.
If you want universal statements that actually mean something, stick to science. If you want a debate, then semantics, as you'll find in issue here, are what you want....
You did distort it. You tried to make it look like not allowing an underage child to vote (for instance) is not giving that child the same right as an adult. This is not the case. The adult wasn't allowed to vote as a child, either, and so has exactly the same rights as the child.
And you tried to make it look like a homeowner who is disturbed at 3 am would have different rights than the criminal who disturbs him or her, but the homeowner would also suffer the same consequences if he or she disturbed another homeowner at 3 am, and would therefore have exactly the same rights.
Unless in your world, some people are allowed to vote at different ages than others, and some homeowners are allowed to disturb other people at 3 am and others are not. And if that is the case, then I concede your point, but I also wonder what sort of weirdly discriminatory society you live in.
CarolC I almost lost my life during an Israeli attack on Palestinian terrorists once, Have you?
Probably not, but CarolC almost lost her mind once when was attacked by reality.
Nope. But that is entirely irrelevant to what we are discussing. We are discussing what it is like for the Palestinians to live under Israeli occupation and, in the case of Gaza, an Israeli stranglehold on borders and air space, and an ongoing campaign of bombings and other kinds of attacks (ongoing for many years). That experience you mention does not in any way give you a better understanding than me about what life is like for the people living under such conditions.
CarolC you insist on making these debates personal attacks on my integrity. I cannot believe you actually know very much about this subject, and clearly you are not impartial in this matter. I suggest you get your information from more than one source and make that source other than Palestinian propaganda. Then debate with people stating facts rather than personal emotional driven drivel. Nuff said..
So, you accept the one of them has the right to vote, and one does not, and they are being discriminated between on the grounds of age. Still, it only lasts 18 (in most countries) years.
In some states, they do. There are official judgements that homeowners have no rights to defend themselves, and in some they do.
So yes, in my world, the real worl,d some people are allowed to vote at different ages to each other, if at all, and some homeowners can defend themselves and some can't.
CarolC you insist on making these debates personal attacks on my integrity.
No I'm not. I am disputing your arguments, but I have not brought your integrity into it at all. If you insist that your personal integrity is inextricably tied to your arguments, then you are the one who is bringing your personal integrity into the discussion.
No, I don't. I agree that they both have the same right to vote. The rules are exactly the same for the both of them. That is what is meant by "equal rights"... same rules for everyone. If you try to make it mean something else, you are distorting the meaning of the phrase.
But the same rules apply to everyone within each juristiction. So within each jurisdiction, everyone has the same rights. It's true that people in some jurisdictions have different rights than people in other jurisdictions, but that is not what is meant by not having "equal rights". Again, you are trying to change the meaning of the phrase "equal rights".
I suggest you get your information from more than one source and make that source other than Palestinian propaganda.
This is a cheap tactic on your part, Dave. My sources are available for everyone to see here in the Mudcat. Most of my sources are Jewish, and many of them Jewish Israelis. For you to try to suggest otherwise is a very large falsehood, and so in this case I do tend to question your integrity.
But I take back what I said about not suggesting that you are a racist, Dave. You are a racist if you consider anything coming from Palestinians to be automatically suspect (and propaganda) for no other reason than that it comes from Palestinians.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry I ever bothered trying to reason to somene so myopic as you. I really should know better by now. Tomorrow, I shall mainly be nailing jelly to the wall, as I might actually get something done doing that....
You are a Nazi CarolC and I have nothing more to say to you.
From: dianavan
Name calling, whether it is calling someone a racist or a Nazi, is unacceptable. It gives no credibility to any of your statements.
No offense to anyone here. I respect the people involved on both sides of what started as a debate and has ended so acrimoniously. However, even the ending might serve to show that if some thinking people can't peacefully talk about the mid-East situation on a forum, the likelihood of it happening IN the mid-East where folks see their very survival as what's at stake just ain't too good.
No, Dave, YOU are the Nazi.
You are a racist, fascist, white supremacist, Nazi.
I am sure my Palestinian friends would agree with you CarolC
The rather impartial question is asked once again:
"CarolC, the Palestinian Authority and various Palestinian NGO's have been receiving substantial aid from the EU for some considerable time (to the tune of $640 million per year) - What have they done with it?
Likewise tell us about similar enterprises that would benefit the "Palestinian" people that have occurred on the West Bank. I do actually think you will find instances in the West Bank but few if any sponsored by the PA or by Hamas."
By the way CarolC the above quoted figure amounts to about one third of what the Palestinian Authorities have received - care to explain what they have done with it. This amount of aid has flowed their way since about 1985 - Please tell us what did Tosser Arafat, his minions and successors do with all that money? Tell you one thing CarolC the "Palestinian" people never saw a penny of it, but by God you just take a look at the bank balances of "those in power", you know CarolC those who were supposed to be looking after the long term interests of the "Palestinian" people. Hells teeth woman it was exactly because of this corruption that Hamas was borne, and what have they done? They have followed directly in the feet of their predecessors.
By the way if anybody is interested in why I keep referring to the "Palestinian" people in inverted commas - Its because the "Palestinian" people were a modern day invention of Tosser Arafat. They are an invention that seemed to grip the modern day imagination, they have had conferred upon them the status of a nation, which has never existed until Tosser Arafat started to bilk them for every penny that they were worth in terms of international sob stories. And Tosser Arafat pocketed every penny, just like his mentor who originally spread the lie among the arabic population of the area geographically known as Palestine that the Jews were slaughtering arabs. It was a complete and utter lie, CarolC will not own up to the truth of that, but that is what kicked this whole thing off - Hey CarolC a LIE TOLD BY AN ARAB, THAT WAS BELIEVED BY THE ARABS -IT WAS A LIE NONE THE LESS.
"Now introducing CarolC as 'Little Egypt' and her brand new dance 'The Gaza Strip'!"
"Gee Fred, sure looks like the same old dance to me."
CarolC is Martin Gibson's evil twin sister.
Geez....
I don't think I've ever called CarolC a Nazi....
I'll just sit back and watch this one.
Dave (the Ancient Mariner):
CarolC:
I think the quote attributed to Golda Meir is thought provoking rather than racist. It goes along with a quote from a member of an Arab death squad indicating that Jews loved life more than any other people.
That quote alone does not justify labeling Meir as a bigot and racist. I think she was neither of those things. She was the opposite of those things. Particularly, CarolC, when in the past you have found Gamal Abdel Nasser, a terrorist dictator, a fitting model for your quotes against Israel.
Possibly you are deliberately misunderstanding the quote as you apparently misunderstood my indication that you do not believe Palestinians are human beings. You clearly don't believe Israelis are human beings. You are turning all of them into symbols that you are labeling 'good' and 'bad' and using skewed interpretations of all quotes and events to justify your preconceived views, as you are choosing some pretty solid citizens (Golda Meir, Thomas Friedman) to decry and some pretty disgusting characters (Yasir Arafat, Gamal Abdel Nasser) as exemplars of truth and moral suasion.
Not that I'm calling you a Nazi. I am not. However, your methods of interpretation are precisely those used by Nazis to justify what they already believe.
Look at any Mudcat thread from the last five years or so that deals with the Middle East and you'll see that at some point CarolC will kill it off by calling anyone who is not 100% anti-Israel a racist, a nazi, etc.
What the Zionists on this thread refuse to recognise is that th Palestinians have a history in Palestine that goes back to biblical times.
They have been expelled from their homeland and houses etc .They were expelled by force and the use of terror by the Hagannah and Zionist terror gangs in what the Palestinians call the Nakbha.
Until the issue of the Palestinian refugees is settled there will be no peace and no justice.
Israel has ceated facts on the ground with its illegal settlements on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem but the biggest fact is the obstacle of Palestinian resistance which seks to right the wrongs committed in the past several decades
What the anti-Zionists on this thread don't realize are that many of the Palestinians who were expelled by force and the use of terror by the Babylonians and Romans and Syrians and Turks have returned to their ancestral homes and the illegal squatters who have yet to understand or make peace with that fact on the ground have been given opportunity after opportunity to make peace and accomodations and have made a series of ludicrously wrong choices.
From: GUEST,forif
The rest of the world is just fucking tired of paying for the killing. They either make peace and settle with Israel, or we watch them get slaughtered for another sixty years. Perhaps the third world war is not that far away after all?
CarolC,
This is bullshit. Tha Arabs has only one goal with regard to the Israelis, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than three thousand years. The Arabs will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world. Everything else they do is just clever sleight of hand to distract your attention from their real agenda.
Another lie from ifor.
The modern-day Palestinians are Arabs. The Arabs first arrived in what is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, as conquerors in the 7th century BCE, long after biblical times.
Most people would regard the 7th century BCE as Biblical times.
The term would, unless otherwise stated, be taken to cover the times of both the Old and New Testaments, so could reasonably be taken to cover from the earliest civilisations in the Middle East, dated to before 3000 BCE, through the time of Abraham 2000-1650 BCE, and Moses 1200-1500 BCE to the end of the New Testment, in the first century ACE.
OOOPS, sorry.
I meant to say the Arabs first arrived in the 7th Century CE (AD). This would have been 600-700 years after the time documented in the New Testament.
Yes, the Palestinians have a history of settlement in Palestine that goes back a very long time.They were carelessly and callously displaced from their homeland in 1948 through the use of mass terror and military might by the Zionist gangs and the newly formed and well armed Israeli military.
The Palestinians have been bombed,brutalised ,slaughtered and humiliated ever since by the one of the most powerful military machine in the world which uses modern jet attack planes ,apache helicopters, heavy tanks,artillery and snipers to slaughter Palestinians...civilians and fighters alike.
Israel has become an ugly,militarised and thuggish regime full of discriminatory laws.It is intent on expelling the Palestinians from their homeland by force and by coerction. It is reminiscent of the way the Aboriginal peoples of Australia and America were expelled from their homelands.
Although Zionism has been criticised the role of the USA has also been a callous one in the long story of the suffering of the Palestinian people.Israel has been armed to the hilt with all kinds of killing machines .Its economy has been bankrolled by the USA .The USA has backed Israel at the UN and at all diplomatic gatherings .And of course the Palestinians have been marginalised and demonised.
However there is a growing worldwide grassroots recognition that the Palestinians have been an oppresssed people ,long bullied and beaten and denied basic civic,human and humanitarian rights.
A free Palestine will come but its people need solidarity!
You could substitute Israel for Palestine in your last post ifor. They lost a fight with Israel when they were much more powerfull.
Israel is a UN recognised country and as such will continue to exist despite all the bullshit thrown at it. They have become powerfull for the very reason a few Arabs now called Palestinians will never become so, they worked at it.
Teribus, I suggest reading my responses to your questions before you go to the trouble of reposting them. See my 08 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM post.
And while the term "the Palestinian people" may (or may not) have been a recent innovation, the fact remains that the people who have lived in that area for more than a thousand years, whatever we call them, are being ethnically cleansed from that area by Israel, and have been since before Israel's war of independence.
Whenever the people here in the Mudcat who are trying to defend the indefensible are met with arguments they cannot successfully counter, they pretty much always resort to childish taunts, usually aimed at me. We know they have lost the argument when they start doing that, because that's all they've got left to fling. They've run out of legitimate ammo and they are now flinging poo.
"We know they have lost the argument when they start doing that, because that's all they've got left to fling. They've run out of legitimate ammo and they are now flinging poo."
See the last paragraph of YOUR post of 08 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM - MY statment is at least supported by the statements of the Arab groups....
Quite so. The Palestinians' ancestry predates the arrival of Arabs in that part of the world. Palestinians are "Arabs" by virtue of language and only part of their genetic makeup.
The people who are the most closely related to the Palestinians, genetically speaking, are Jews. The Palestinians and the Mizrahim have the longest uninterrupted history of living in that region. To say that the Ashkenazim have a legitimate claim to land that belongs to the Palestinians would be like saying that the people from what is now Asia who long ago populated North and South America have a legitimate claim to the land that belongs to the China, Japan, and the other countries in Asia.
I fail to see your point, beardedbruce.
I understand that, CarolC.
YOU stated that
"This is bullshit. Israel has only one goal with regard to the Palestinians, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than a thousand years. Israel will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world. Everything else they do is just clever sleight of hand to distract your attention from their real agenda. "
I stated that
"This is bullshit. Tha Arabs has only one goal with regard to the Israelis, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than three thousand years. The Arabs will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world. Everything else they do is just clever sleight of hand to distract your attention from their real agenda."
BOTH are equally valid statements, except you have quotes from the OPPOSITION to the country you are accusing to justifying yours, and I have quotes from the representatives of the nations and groups that I am accusing supporting mine.
Israel has the STATED goal of living in peace with a palestinian state, while the Palestinian groups have the STATED goal of the destruction of the state of Israel.
except you have quotes from the OPPOSITION to the country you are accusing to justifying your
This is not true. I have provided many quotes from many Israeli leaders and other high ranking Israelis to support this claim, on numerous occasions here in the Mudcat. In fact these are the only quotes I have used to support this contention.
Those quotes are from people IN OPPOSITION to the present Israeli government- as the moderate Arab voices I have quoted are in opposiion to the present Palestinian efforts. You rejected those as not being valid- so why should I accept YOUR selection of Israeli Opposition quotes?
No, they are quotes from the Israeli government.
YOU state " Israel has only one goal with regard to the Palestinians, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than a thousand years. Israel will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world."
Please provide the quote that this is the only goal of the Israeli government- I have in past provided the quote that the Israeli government made in 1948 inviting the Palestinians to live in peace with Israel, as well as the quotes from Arab and Palestinian leaders declaring the ONLY acceptable solution to be the desrtruction of the state of Israel.
Plus the on-the-ground reality belies any rhetoric to the contrary that some members of the Israeli government provide for the purpose of diverting attention away from their actions.
The reality is that the Palestinians, any rhetoric to the contrary, ARE being ethnically cleansed from their lands, and they have been since before Israel's war of independence. That's the cold, hard, reality, politically expedient rhetoric notwithstanding.
I've provided those quotes many, many times, beardedbruce. Read my posting history.
You mean like the Jews of the Arab nations and the West Bank were ethnically cleansed? Where is their right of return?
The intent of the division of Transjordan was to provide an Arab homeland and a Jewish Homeland, much like the division of Pakistan and India. NOT perfect, but we are dealing with an attempt by the winning powers of WW I to deal with the Ottoman Empire- the results of which are the borders of present day Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia... It is NOT the fault of Israel that Jordan did not take in the refugees, as Israel did.
WHY do you single out Israel at the ONLY state created by that treaty
that has no right to it's land?
Why do youinsist that only the Palestinians have the right to life and property?
We've been through all of this before, beardedbruce, many, many times. Is your memory that selective? Jews are the only people who have any "rights" in the West Bank. And if Jews wanted to live in peace amongst the Palestinians, in the same villages, (not segregated, Jewish-only, settlements, accessed by Jewish-only roads, and defended by a brutal military occupation), and without displacing any Palestinians from their homes, they would be (and are) welcomed by the Palestinians there.
And for the other countries, as I have said many times before, my tax dollars are not supporting the ethnic cleansing of Jews from those places. If you want to start a movement to get the Jews back into those countries, I will be right there with you.
Jordan took in many refugees. Half of their population today is of Palestinian origin. But Jordan is a poor country with few resources, and it can only support so many new people. And whether or not Jews have a homeland in the area provided them by the UN is entirely irrelevant to the question of the Israelis taking by force, the land given to the Palestinians by the UN.
WHY do you single out Israel at the ONLY state created by that treaty that has no right to it's land?
We've been through this one many times before, as well, beardedbruce. This is a straw man argument becuase I do not do this at all. Israel is not defending its land. It is taking other peoples' land. If Israel would keep it's activities confined to the area within the 1967 borders (which include quite a bit of land not given to it by the UN, but that was taken by force by Israel), you and I would not be having this discussion.
beardedbruce, this is a lie. You know that I have not ever done this, and that I am not doing this now. I support Israel within the 1967 borders, and I support its right to defend those borders. Any suggestion by you to the contrary is a lie.
"If Israel would keep it's activities confined to the area within the 1967 borders (which include quite a bit of land not given to it by the UN, but that was taken by force by Israel), you and I would not be having this discussion."
WHY 1967? Aren't the borders as defined for the rest of the region good enough? Can we alter the borders of, say , Iraq, to something other than the 1923 TREATY boundries?
I have never understood why the 1967 borders were never good enough for the Palestinians and Arab nations until AFTER they had lost additional territory by attacking Israel, and losing. THEN they became some holy thing.
" I support its right to defend those borders"
So I can presume YOU support the present actions Of Israel in Gaza, since they are in support of defending THOSE borders, which the Palestinians had attacked across, with both the tunnel and rockets.
I was not previously aware that you supported Israel within the 1967 borders and its rights to defend those borders. You made my day. Wonder if guest ifor will be as happy with that position. ifor seems to be more of the 'they ain't never shoulda stayed' school.
I notice you have not answered my post of 09 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM so are you retreating from your position or are you going to post something more informative and creditable than your attempted character assassination of Golda Meir.
I'll be happy to repeat the post for you if it will be helpful.
It is a compromise, and much easier to facilitate than defnining the borders by the UN agreement. But if you think the borders as defined by the UN are preferable, that's your right. But I think you'll have a much harder time convincing the Israelis to agree to that than to the 1967 borders.
They didn't attack Israel. That has been more than amply proven already. Israel attacked its neighbors so it could have a pretext for taking more land. That has been its modus operandi from the very beginning.
I might if Israel hadn't been already bombing Gaza for the last umpteen years, and blocking and controlling Gaza's borders and air space. But it has, and so I don't.
We will have to disagree. I was refering to the 1923 treaty, the LAST time that an Arab government agreed to national borders with a Jewish Homeland.
I dispute several of your assurtions, as you are aware. Does it serve any purpose to debate the causes of the 1967 war, when you dispute what I present, and I dispute what you have stated?
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lausanne.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BritishMandatePalestine1920.jpg
And since the Palestinians refused the original partition, why should they be allowed to go back and accept it now? They had their chance, and turned it down.
"UNSCOP considered two main proposals. The first called for the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states in Palestine, with Jerusalem to be placed under international administration. The second called for the creation of a single federal state containing both Jewish and Arab constituent states. A majority of UNSCOP favoured the first option, although several members supported the second option instead and one member (Australia) said it was unable to decide between them. As a result the first option was adopted and the UN General Assembly largely accepted UNSCOP's proposals, though they made some adjustments to the boundaries between the two states proposed by it. The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal.
The partition plan was rejected out of hand by the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs and by most of the Arab population. Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention 29 November, the date of this session, as the most important date leading to the creation of the Israeli state."
robomatic, I have stated my support for Israel within the 1967 borders many dozens of times. If you refuse to read what I post, that is not my responsibility, and it is probably an indication of a purposefully selective memory, as well as the fact that you only recognize things that support your own preconceived views.
It's racist, because it makes a defamatory generalization against a whole group of people.
I'm not going only by that quote for my opinion that she was a bigot and a racist. I'm also going by the legacy of her words and actions.
Possibly you are deliberately misunderstanding the quote as you apparently misunderstood my indication that you do not believe Palestinians are human beings.
Nope. Any time I see or hear someone making defamatory generalizations against whole groups of people, I consider the source of such generalizations to be bigoted racists. An example of this is my agreement with Peace in this thread that the quotes he provided coming from Palestinians are also bigoted and racist.
You clearly don't believe Israelis are human beings. You are turning all of them into symbols that you are labeling 'good' and 'bad'
This is a lie, and you cannot provide any support for it from my posting history.
and using skewed interpretations of all quotes and events to justify your preconceived views
Just because you happend to think they are skewed, doesn't mean they are. And just what are my "preconceived views"?
as you are choosing some pretty solid citizens (Golda Meir, Thomas Friedman)
Again, opinion, and not one that is supported by any facts.
to decry and some pretty disgusting characters (Yasir Arafat, Gamal Abdel Nasser) as exemplars of truth and moral suasion.
Opinion. And one that is skewed by preconceived views as well.
You might have a valid point if you were telling the truth about my words and activities. But you are not.
This is a fallacious argument, beardedbruce. The fact that they refused it means that they are not obligated to accept any borders that Israel wants to impose on them. The fact that they are now saying they will capitulate on the 1967 borders ought to be viewed by Israel as a gift. But Israel doesn't want the Palestinians to have an independent country within any borders, and that is why it is doing everything it can (politically expedient rhetoric notwithstanding) to ethnically cleanse them from all of the lands on which they still live.
"But Israel doesn't want the Palestinians to have an independent country within any borders,"
Totally unsupported claim on your part. The Palestinians have made such a statement of purpose, NOT the Israelis.
Negotiations should be from TODAY'S border, as the Palestinians did not agree to negotiate at all when any of the previous borders were in place.
Or should we give back the borders of the Biblocal Kingdoms of Israel and Judea, since you want to go back in time...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Levant_800.png
I write to support CarolC. Zionism has poisoned relations between all the peoples of the Middle East. It has been used by Western Imperialism as a guard dog to for US interests..oil,and military and geo strategic....
The result has been a catastrophe for the Palestinians in particular. But Israel has time and time again has invaded or attacked or threatened its neighbours [Egypt,Syria, Jordan, The Lebanon]and the indiginous Palestinian people whose lands it has stolen.
"A state governing a hostile population of 1.5 to 2 million foreigners [ie.the indiginous Palestinians in the newly occupied lands ]... is bound to become a Shin Bet [security state ] with all this implies for the spirit of education,freedom of speech and thought and democracy. Israel will be infected with corruption,characteristic of any colonial regime."
Reinhart..p8
Not true, beardedbruce. Totally supported on my part in probably hundreds of previous post. As I said, read my posting history. Many, many top members of the government of Israel, throughout its history, have made such statements of purpose.
Guest ifor:
I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?
"And while the term "the Palestinian people" may (or may not) have been a recent innovation, the fact remains that the people who have lived in that area for more than a thousand years, whatever we call them, are being ethnically cleansed from that area by Israel, and have been since before Israel's war of independence."
Who is being "ethnically cleansed from the area" CarolC?
One thing Israel has ALWAYS said, "Stop attacking us, stop killing our civilians and the violence will end. Acknowledge our right to to live in peace and there shall be peace."
It is about time that the Palestinian leadership and their Arab neighbours gave that offer a chance, they never have in the past. One thing is for sure, the "Palestinian" people would greatly benefit from it.
By the way CarolC, what did the PLO and the PA do with all the aid money they received from donor countries (I know where 300+ million US$ went - Tosser Arafat's hip pocket)
The Palestinians, Teribus.
This is not true. Members of the Israeli government have made this statement many times, although even during times when Palestinians were not killing Israelis, Israel was still killing Palestinians. But many more have said that their practice is to incite violence against Israel in order to provide a pretext for driving all of the Palestinians out, and for enlarging Israeli territory into the surrounding countries.
However violence is not the only way the Israeli government accomplishes its goal of ethnic cleansing. The main, and most effective way is to make the lives of Palestinians so miserable, Palestinians will leave for lack of any other viable alternative. They do this by buldozing Palestinians' houses and orchards, dividing them up into tiny bantustans separated by settlements and access roads, severely interrupting their movements within the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and formerly in Gaza with the use of an arbitrary system of checkpoints (most of which accomplish nothing other than to harass and humiliate Palestinians), by separating farmers from their orchards and fields, harassing farmers who are trying to harvest their crops, confiscating most of the water supply in the West Bank, bombing and destroying all of the Palestinians' civil infrastructure, encouraging and financing the expansion of settlements and basically allowing (by virtue of almost never prosecuting) Israeli settlers to harass, bully, and even kill Palestinian civilians and farmers... the list goes on and on.
Many of them would dearly love to, but Israel will not permit it.
I forgot to mention the "security barrier". That is another tool the Israelis are using to ethnically cleanse Palestinians in the West Bank. Instead of putting the barrier along the pre-1967 border, they are using it to carve out huge chunks of the West Bank and making those areas unavailable to Palestinians, separating Palestinians from their fields and orchards in the process, as well as separating the ever shrinking bantustans one from another so that Palestinians cannot even go from one village to another within their own area. They are turing all of the areas that Palestinians have access to and are allowed to use into a huge prison full of inmates who have no civil rights whatever. This is collective punishment... a favorite tactic of the Nazis.
Reply to Teribus
One of the problems is that Israel and its Zionist leadership refues to meaningfully recognise the right of the Palestinian people to exist.
Indeed here on Mudcat many Zionist supporters cannot even bring themselves to call the Palestinians by their name or only use it in quotation marks.
The reality is that Israel was born through the terror inflicted on the people of Palestine....its indiginous population.
At the beginning of the 20th century the Jewish population of Palestinian was only a small fraction of its population and the attempt to settle the land with armed zionists using terror gangs and tactics ruined the social relationships between Jews and Palestinians.
Since its inception Israel has attacked its neighbours and the Palestinian people.Perhaps you will remember the part the Israeli armed forces played in the Suez invasion of Egypt.....or the role it played in the destruction of Beirut and the massacres refugee camps in which thousands of children,women and old people were slaughtered by fascist gangs under the direction of the Israeli army led by that man o war Arial Sharon.The Israeli fired up the flares and guarded the camp's boundaries while the mass murderers went in with their bayonets and knives and machine guns.
The Palestinians have tasted at the well of Zionist justice for several decades and still they are being battered and blown up in Gaza and on the West Bank with the Gazans being half starved, denied water and strafed from the air.The sonic booms of Israeli aircraft flying a few hundred feet above one of the most densely populated urban areas in the world is causing psychological problems among many children and women are miscarrying.
And tyesterday I saw on the news thatan American soldier killed three people and participated(?) in the rape of a 14 year old girl. Then killed her. He seemed to look rather shocked when he was taken into custody. May I ask: what do you teach these people?
From: GUEST,Walt
Israel has been used by the USA to police the Middle East for the past six decades.It has done so because the Middle East supplies much of the world's oil and the USA has the stategic aim of controlling either directly or indirectly this oil.
Through Israel and sometimes directly itself, the USA has been able to bribe , confront,browbeat ,threaten,cajole or subdue Arab nationalism.
It has inflicted or propped up dictators in the Middle East from Saddam in Iraq to the Shah in Iran,from Mubarrak in Egypt to the Saudi Royal House in Saudi Arabia.
In all of this Israel plays the role of guard dog wielding the big stick on behalf of the bigger dog but also on occasions acting solely in its own interests.
And oh how the people of the Middle East have suffered ..none more so than the Palestinians who have been expelled, blown up and humiliated ....where did the one and a half million Palestinians in Gaza originally come from...not from Gaza which was once only a stip of dunes and desert...no ...they came from what is now Israel...and they want the right to return.
Walt, what a crock of pure shit
The trouble with the Zionists they don't like to be told the truth about what has been done by Zionists to the Palestinian people.
For example the USA vetoed a UN resolution this week condemning Israel actions in Gaza.
What exactly is that action?
Well it is the indiscriminate bombing and shelling of heavily built up civilian areas.Dozens have been killed in Gaza during the past few weeks including many children blown up by shells.
The Israelis have blown up the power station cutting electricity to emergency operating theatres,clinics ,homes ,schools apartment blocks , sewage plants and shops etc
The children of Gaza are suffering from malnutrition and are starving yet the shops have lost refrigeration and factories have been bombed.
Unemployment rates are huge and even off shore fisheries have been blocked by the Israelis denying this source of food to the Palestinians.
Bridges have been blown up and tanks have penetrated into Gaza.Israel has encircled the city and the border crossings into Egypt has been blocked. Thousands of people including the elderly have been stranded at these crossings.
The Israeli soldier ,who by the way has a french passport, was captured by Palestinian fighters who have offered his safe return in exchange for women and children being ilegally held by the Israelis...these were mainly kidnapped from the illegally occupied West Bank by Israeli military forces who are holding thousands of prisoners in disgraceful and inhumane conditions including tent prisons in the sweltering desert.
Well if they had stopped killing Israelis they wouldn't be back in Gaza, but of course they won't, so the killing goes on and on. Truth hurts ifor....
The Israeli writer Uri Avnery has compared the suffering of the people of Gaza to a "Palestinian Massada." [see Counterpoint ].
On one side you have a well trained army with jet bombers,helicopter gunships, huge tanks,sophisticated machine guns and naval warships....on the other side there are poorly trained and lightly armed fighters with kalashnikovs and grenade launchers....and the Palestinians are taking a pounding.But still the Israelis cannot win.
The Israeli army has kidnapped dozens of elected Palestinian authority members from the West Bank refugee camps and towns but the prospect of occupying Gaza with its million plus population is a different prospect altogether hence it is starving and terrorising its civilian residents including the children.
The Israeli military does not abide by the Geneva Convention and a humanitarian crisis is enveloping Gaza.But still the Palestinians refuse to be beaten into submission.
When are you going over to help out, ifor?
ifor, go away and read up on what it was that brought about the creation of the armed Jewish resistance in Palestine in the 1920's.
What a stupid and idiotic question. We have seen the sort of "help"given by all those American born Zionists who now strut around the West Bank settlements with their uzi machine guns slung over their shoulders.You know them , the ones who have built [with the protection of the Israeli state ] dozens of illegal fortified settlements and camps on land grabbed from the Palestinians that they hate so much. They are the ones who drive around on their Israeli only roads and have stolen the water from the indiginous Palestinians. They are the ones who have built an apartheid wall so big it makes the Berlin Wall look like a picket fence.
They are the ones who have stolen houses in the middle of Hebron and throw rocks,fire weapons and hurl bags of piss at their Palestinian neighbours..you know them ...one of them went into the Tomb of the Patricians with his assault rifle [issued by the Israeli army ] and opened fire killing dozens of muslim worshippers and injuring over a hundred others before he was overpowered and killed.
Those Zionists have had their lives distorted and twisted by the belief that the Palestinians have no place in the homeland.
I live in the village where my mother was born.I have no designs on any other man's home,land, water, orchards ,business, city, town,beach or human rights...or country
The Zionists have created hell on earth for the Palestinians and there are many people including non Zionist Jews who are willing to speak up for battered and bruised but unbeaten Palestinians.
Nice rhetoric. No fact, but very good speechifying. From the way you talk, I figured you'd be on a plane to go help the people you support so much.
The instances of killing you cite are true. Of course you mention nothing about the killings done by Palestinians. The bombings of school busses for example. But then it seems your memory is very selective.
ifor stands for International Fellowship of Reconciliation. Why that name, ifor. You are reconciliatory?
The war against the Palestinians has been waged by the Zionists and the Israeli state for many,many decades ...for years before the state of Israel came into existence.
From the very first the Zionists had no intention of recognising the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people.
They attacked them physically and then later shot them,baynotted them or drove them out of their homeland.You know that!
The massacres committed by the Israelis have been many from Deir Yassin to Qana ,from the Beirut camps to the the slaughter at Jenin.This year alone over 200 have been killed by the Israelis in Gaza.The radio reported 6 blown up in Gaza this morning including 2 women and 2 children ,murdered by a huge bomb dropped on a house.
Israeli has one of the most powerful killing machines in the world and uses it to terrorise the Palestinians. It has been armed and funded by the USA .
I am certainly not concilitaory when I see the way the Palestinians have been slaughtered, pauperised and terrorised by Israel and those strutting Zionist paramilitaries who delight in bullying their Palestinians neighbours.There are now some 400000 Zionists living illegally on the West Bank.In 1967 there were none.
They have seized land ,fields,orchards,blown up homes [thousands have been bulldozered or demolished in the past few years] and those humiliating checkpoints [like fortresses ] built across the land.
The one act of conciliation I would approve of is to see the millions of exiled Palestinians return to their homeland ...under the present Israeli regime it aint going to happen ...
The one act of conciliation I would approve of is to see the millions of exiled Palestinians return to their homeland
You know that would spark off a civil way between the Jewish and Palastinian inhabitants of the new State in about 5 minutes flat, and to paraphrase from many of your statements, all the Zionists are armed to the teeth, are a highly trained killing machine, and will never give up. You say there at least 400,000 Zionists*. So you want to spark a war with one side with modern weapons, and the other with little more than rocks and sticks( to paraphrase from you again) Go look up the Battle of Omdurman to find out what would happen to your beloved Palastinians.....
There is too much hated and spilt blood on both sides for a one state solution to work for decades.
*There are now some 400 000 Zionists living illegally on the West Bank Plus, presumably a few more in Israel proper.
The Palestinians have not been able to live in peace on their lands for decades.
One of the problems is that the Zionists are intent on stealing [and that is what it is ] yet more land from their neighbours whether it is the Golan Heights from Syria or the annexation of the West Bank itself, apart from a few encircled Palestinian bantustans controlled by the Israelis with their guns and armoured bulldozers and fortified checkpoints all designed to make life as hellish as possible for the Palestinians who have lived there for hundreds ,if not thousands of years.
The future will not be forever Zionist!
There are many Jewish people across the world, secular and religious, who are appalled by the injustice and oppression being meted out to the Palestinians.
They also know that this state of conflict and oppression has not always existed.It was exported to Palestine by the early Zionists.In pre Zionist times Jews did live in peace and security with their Palestinian neighbours for much of the time and that sense of inter community security could be achieved again...but certainly not in a Zionist state which is intent on pounding the Palestinians even further.
The existing Zionist state of Israel is an ugly,bigotted and thuggish state .It is highly militarised and intolerant .It imprisons children,separates families, occupies territories it has no legal title to,bulldozes whole neighbourhoods into the ground,steals water, introduces highly discriminatory laws,bombs civilians, shuts down universities, breaks the limbs of teenagers and acts as a lawless aggressor.
The 400,000 Zionist paramilitary colonialists in the West Bank should leave as they are a menace .
The Palestine Solidarity Campaign has called for a solidarity vigil to oppose the Israeli attack on Gaza which has led to the deaths of over 50 civilians in Gaza during the past 2 weeks and the starving of its population.
The vigil will take place this evening from 5.30 until 7.30 in Whitehall ,London outside the Foreign Office which has conspicuously failed to protest at this onslaught against the civilian residents of Gaza.
From: GUEST,David
Nine members of a Palestinian family were killed by an Israeli bomb dropped on their house today in Gaza.Seven of them were young people or children aged between seven and 19 years of age.The intended target ,the father ,an activist with Hamas escaped.
The BBC just reported the same bomb as ' 9 were killed, including 7 children, when their house, the home of a senior Hamas millitant, was bombed. He was injured.'
If it was a Palastinian blowing up a bus full of civilans aiming at the Israeli soilder or policeman on it, the guests wouldn't even think to mention it.
BOTH SIDES VIOLENCE IS EQUALLY EVIL. What part of this is too complex for you?
During the 2nd world war nazi Germany invaded and occupied much of Europe and used terror tactics and repressive meaures to maintain control.The resistance used armed violence to fight back including assassinations, bombing of installations,wrecking of trains etc.
I don't think it is possible to equate the violence of the oppressor with the armed reistance of the oppressed.
Is the Israeli pilot who drops a huge bomb on a crowded street slaughtering dozens so very different from the suicide bomber wearing a bomb belt?
The Israeli pilot after he has aimed and fired goes home for his tea and flies and kills again.The Palestinian belt bomber driven in most cases by despair or revenge kills himself or herself in the act of killing others.Both sets of killings are disgusting and terrible.I never hear Zionists calling for the jet bombers to be disarmed or the tanks to be dismantled.
Look at the history of Zionist aggression against the Palestinian people......from the very first they were determined to drive out the Palestinians from their farms and cities.This was Zionist policy from the very beginning.
They claimed ,for public consumption that Palestine was a land without a people and the Zionists were a people without a lansd.How wrong they were but how they fooled world opinion ...at least for a while.
Major Terrorist Attacks in Israel
If you think there's not enough blame to go around, think again. Your anti-Israeli position is a mask for soemthing else, IMO. Diatribe mostly. However, you ifor are not interested in Justice unless that Justice includes the decimation of Israel. I don't know what that makes you, but it isn't something very nice.
Your rants indicate an existing bias against Israel and the Israeli people. You use Zionist as a term of opprobrium whereas it indicates in fact someone who is in favor of the establishment of a homeland for the Jews as a people. To say that Israel has a Zionist leadership is a self conflict: Israel has an Israeli leadership, because, whether or not you approve of it (I gather you do not), that homeland for the Jews has been established.
You not only have a selective memory for history, but a selective memory for those you wish to address on this forum thread. Let me repeat my question directed to you from 10 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM:
Suicide and Other Bombing Attacks in Israel Since the Declaration ...
Google the above; the list is a long one. Attacks against citizens is disgusting, whether those attacks are initiated by the 'Palestinians' or Israelis. However, your wont to single out Israel reeks of a hatred for Jews--not Zionists or Israelis, but Jews. I see no more point discussing anything with you ifor. You are one sad piece of work.
What a sanctimonious crew you Zionists are! A reign of terror has been conducted against the Palestinians for decades.Go on admit it!!
Terror was waged by Zionist paramilitary groups before the state of Israel was founded in 1948 and by the state of Israel and by armed Zionist paramilitary groups since that time.
Gaza is starved ! The West Bank is illegally occupied! The refugee camps are attacked ! A quarter of the Palestinian Authority are in Israeli prisons.Thousands of Palestinians are being illegally imprisoned !
Hundreds of children are in prison! The Golan Heights are Syrian and are under Israeli occupation.East Jesusalem is being squeezed and surrounded by illegal settlements! The apartheid wall is well named and a monstrosity!The children of Gaza are terrorised and malnourished!
Arial Sharon was held responsible for the massacres of thousands of innocent women,children and the elderly and Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in 1982. Was he punished ? Was he hell!
And then there are the chums of Israel....The fascist gangs in the Lebanon, the racist crew in apartheid South Africa....the Death Squad bosses in South America...the Neo Cons in the White House and the Pentagon.
One of the biggest critics of the state of Israel was the late Tony Cliff who was born into a Zionist family in Palestine in 1917. He was a determined opponent of Zionism and a supporter of a free Palestine for all his life . He saw with his own eyes the sectarianism and division and Iinjustice that Zionism had caused .
Ifor, is there any real or hypothetical Palastinain action that you can actually bring yourself to say is wrong? A suicide bomber in a bus load of civilians? A truck bomb in a Israeli childrens hospital? Nerve gas on the streets of Tel Aviv?
Or the ultimate crime, that can never be forgiven, recognising that Israel has a right to exist. Surely at least one of those must be beyond the pale.....
In 1946 the King David Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up by a Zionist gang made up of Irgun and Haganah members.91 people including Jews ,Palestinians and Europeans were slaughtered .Many others were wounded when the 7 story hotel was destroyed.This was an atrocity carried out by Zionists.
Yes it was. And that type of thing is deplorable. It is not just deplorable when it is done by Israel, Zionists or Jews. Is is deplorable when it is done by Hamas, Palestinians, IRA, RUC, Red Brigade, USA.
So ifor, have the 'Palestinians' done anything wrong? Ever? Just a simple answer would do before you rant again. IS IT OK WHEN PALESTINIANS KILL ISRAELI KIDS?
A villager from Safsaf [now called Sifsufa ] gave an oral testimony about what happened in her Palestinian village when it was captured in October 1948.
"As we lined up ,a few jewish soldiers ordered four girls to accompany them to carry water for the soldiers.Instead they took them to our empty houses and raped them.About 70 of our men were blindfolded and shot to death ,one after another ,in front of us."
quoted in David Gilmour ...1980..".Dispossessed ..The Ordeal of the Palestinians.".London Sphere Books.
Message to Peace
Your bile badly contravenes your name.There will be no peace in Palestine while the people of that country continue to be pulverised by one of the world's most powerful armies.
It's your bile that makes me want to puke. The notion that when terrorists kill innocents (but they are YOUR terrorists killing a people you don't like) it's OK. NO, ifor. You are a piece of crap. You don't mind Israeli kids being killed, do you? So it's not about right or wrong for you, it's about killing Jews. Piss of and die.
IS IT OK WHEN PALESTINIANS KILL ISRAELI KIDS?
ifor likely thinks so.
You have posted two times since my last post which was directed straight to you. I repeat it once again. It should be easy to understand it as written below but I'll try to put it in one syllable words if that is what you require:
Let me repeat my question directed to you from 10 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM,
and on 12 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM :
I think Ifor must be a politician. There are various simple questions that have been asked to him, and he doesn't answer them, he just carries on with whatever he wanted to say. Lets try another one.....
Ifor, are you an early version of a computer debating system? Your programmers have got the diatribe right, but not the actually answering questions bit. Is there a better version available yet?
The King David Hotel was the British military headquarters. The argument could be made that it was therefore a military target.
Be that as it may, the Irgun warned the British military commanders well in advance of the bombing and advised that the hotel be evacuated. The British refused to evacuate the hotel.
The trouble with the Zionist supporters on Mudcat and elsewhere is that they will not face up to the history of Palestine.
The Zionists have spent decades slaughtering the Palestinians and expelling them from their homes and land and indeed their country.
The state of Israel was founded on Palestinian land.The Palestinian people had to be terrorised,slaughtered and exiled for that to happen.
In 1967 the Palestinians on the West Bank faced a further onslaught with the invasion by Israel.Who were these Palestinians? In the main they were the refugees who had fled from what is now Israel.
Since then they have been shelled,bombed,shot at and imprisoned.This is the daily fare for Palestinians.At the heart of the matter is the stealing of Palestinian land by Israel.
As stated previously the Zionist presence on the West Bank in 1967 was precisely nil.Now there are 400000 armed Zionist paramilitary colonialists who steal land, shoot into Palestinian villages , build the apartheid wall and humiliate the Palestinians on a daily basis.
The Zionist response to a criticism of this on this thread is to demand the recognition of the 1967 borders.They show no concern or understanding for the Palestinian people ...the indiginous population of Palestine...How could they? Zionism has always trained its adherents in the belief that the land is God given to the Zionist people and others, despite being settled there for hundreds if not thousands of years, must depart.
There will never be peace for Palestinians and Israelis while Palestinian land is stolen ,their identity denied and their right to return refused.
The Zionists demand that the victim apologises to the aggressor!And so the Palestinians fight back!
Ten of the 27 dead in last night's attack on the Lebanon by Israeli armed forces were children.They were bombed from the air as was Beirut International Airport.
You are a hate-filled person who does NOT care that children die. You needed no brain washing because in your case a light rinse would have done.
Must be morning in the British Isles.
The trouble with the Palestinian supporters on Mudcat and elsewhere is that they will not face up to the history of Israel.
The Palestinians have spent decades slaughtering the Jews and attempting to expel them from their homes and land and indeed their country.
The state of Israel was founded on the land of the Israelites. The Jewish people had been terrorised,slaughtered and exiled for centuries.
In 1967 the Israelis were surrounded on all sides by their enemies who promised to destroy them. They fought back and only in this way did they survive.
Since then they have been attacked on all fronts and all age groups as male, female, soldier, tourist, schoolchild.This is daily fare for Israelis.At the heart of the matter is the refusal of the Arab countries to acknowledge the presence of Israel.
Now armed Palestinian paramilitary terrorists steal onto Israeli land, shoot guns and rockets into Israeli villages, kill and dismember their own people who are fingered as 'collaborators' and continue to attempt to defeat Israel via a campaign of terror.
The Palestinian response to a criticism of this on this thread is to demand the de-recognition of Israel within any borders whatsoever.They show no concern or understanding for the Israeli people ...the indiginous population of Israel...How could they? Zealous Muslim teachings and the surrounding Arab states, often using UN funds, have been used to indoctrinate young Palestinians into an uneducated rage against people they do not know nor are encouraged to understand, and give them a vain hope that they can move into a somehow depopulated land at some time in the future.
There will never be land nor peace for Palestinians while they wage war on the people of Israel by any means.
The history of Palestine? is the first world war far enough back, or shall I start with the big bang?
Under the British mandate following the first world war, there was widespread jewish immigration to some areas of Palestine. There was only one reliable census taken, in 1931. All the others are less certain, so most figures cannot be taken as exactly accurate.
Areas of Jewish settlement had a growth rate of 157% in Arab population between 1931 and 1945, while in those with few or no Jewish settlers, the mean growth rate of Palestinian Arab population was 127%. Overall, the mean growth rate of Palestinian Arab population was 142% from 1931 to 1945. The urban areas Haifa had the highest growth rate, probably due to British port activity. There was a shift in population from the south and urban centers to the North. and Jerusalem, Ramla and Tulkarm had the highest growth rates.
So this is the Zionist plan to drive the Palastinians out?
From a balanced and well researched piece
"There are now some 400000 Zionists living illegally on the West Bank.In 1967 there were none."
I am glad to see that you, if not CarolC, haqve admitted that the Arabs have ethnically cleansed the Jews from the West Bank during the period 1948 to 1967.
COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT IS A WAR CRIME!
Israel is intensifying its collective punishment of the Palestinian people in Gaza ,one of the most densely populated areas on earth.At least 51 Palestinians have been killed and around 150 wounded ,the majority of them civilians, mostly children,since Israel launched its attack.
At Al Awada hospital in Jabalia refugee camp 5 children have been brought in shot in the chest or abdomen.These children are aged between 12 and 15.
In the east of Gaza an Israeli shell killed a mother and two of her children..
According to a Palestinian network coordinator ,"Since the 8th June over 60 Palestinians have been killed and 200 wounded ."
These include men,women and children.
Gaza is under siege and warfare is being waged indiscriminately by Israel.The power plant has been blown up and there is a severe shortage of drinking water.Much of the water that is available is contaminated and dirty water has also polluted agricultural land.Raw sewage is making life almost impossible for the residents of Gaza.
Hospitals are working by emergency generators only and many workers have not been paid for a month or more.
Merkava tanks have penetrated into Gaza and homes and other buildings have been shelled and wrecked.Already before the latest attack some 70% of Gazans were living below the poverty line .The attack by Israel only adds to the prevailing humanitarian crisis.
Sonic booms are terrifying the children of Gaza who are already suffering from stress and malnutrition. Bedwetting problems are commonplace.
Gaza is a prison with freedom of movement denied. Residents have been used as human shields as bulldozers have demolished homes and uprooted gardens.
Forty civilians have been killed in the Israeli attack on the Lebanon including 10 members of one family and 7 members of another family in Southern Lebanon.
Israeli planes and warships have entered Lebanese airspace and territorial waters and bombs are raining down.
Ten civilians were injured when an Israeli missile hit the Palestine foreign ministry in Gaza yesterday.
Let us hope they will stop killing Jewish men women and children which precipitates this present war. Remember, the Israelis pulled out of Gaza, and were then attacked by terrorists for their trouble. When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn... to quote the words of a song.
The Israelis pulled out of Gaza because they could not hold it with 8000 Zionist colonialists trying to subdue one and a half million Palestinians in Gaza...of course while they were there the Israelis made the Palestinians lives a misery stealing their water,land,building checkpoints and shooting the Palestinians when and where they could.
They also made a mockery of the pull out.Israel still controls the air space ,land borders and coastal waters of Gaza.It even controls the Gaza crossing into Egypt.Hundreds are stranded there as I write.
Israel has killed hundreds in Gaza since the pullout with shellings,missile strikes and naval bombardment being prominent.The capture of the Israeli army corporal [with the french passport ] was in response to these Israeli attacks.
Now of course it is trying to pound Gaza to bits.
You quote from the song "Where have all the flowers gone"... great song....there's another one from the same period which is perhaps more pertinent
"We were waste deep in the big muddy but the damn fool kept saying press on"
Science has just discovered that if you say the same thing hundreds of times you commit it to memory. Glad to see that science is right.
So, is it OK for 'Palestinians' to kill Israeli kids?
More than 70 Katyusha rockets have hit Israel in the past 24 hours, the IDF said.
Missiles critically injured one person and hurt at least 10 others in Safed, about 13 miles (20 kilometers) from the Lebanese border, which local officials said not been hit by Hezbollah rockets since 1972. (Watch the rocket's explosion and town chaos -- 1:45)
Also in northern Israel, a woman was killed and 15 people hurt in a rocket attack in Nahariya, and at least 38 people were injured when rockets hit the Arab village of Carmiel, Israeli ambulance services said.
You have posted two times since my last post which was directed straight to you. You seemed to indicate that you do not accept Israel under any circumstances within any boundries. You also do not seem to have the intestinal fortitude to come right out and say it. So I repeat it once again.:
and on 12 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM
A simple 'NO' would suffice. Following that it would be useful to see what you DO bring to the party other than repetitious bunk.
GUEST,ifor is also
GUEST,Walt
GUEST,David
GUEST,Freddie
GUEST,Albert
and a host of others (different threads, not this one)
Guess the reason they still control the airspace is to stop the weapons and missiles being delivered by those other peace loving bastards who surround Israel.
"The most tangible threats stem from the Katyusha rockets launched by terrorist groups from within Lebanon (the Hizbullah and various Palestinian factions) capable of striking throughout northern Israel, and the Kassam rockets which are currently limited to the Gaza Strip and have a range of about 9 kilometers. Palestinian acquisition of Katyusha rockets would threaten Israel's entire population. "
"The weapon was not accurate but was extremely effective in saturation bombardment. Katyushas were often massed in very large numbers to create a shock effect on enemy forces."
(28 May)"A Katyusha rocket was fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel for the first time on Tuesday, raising fears that Palestinian terror groups have obtained additional weaponry that the IDF had yet to face in its war against Gaza-based terror.
The Katyusha attack, the army said, was a "clear escalation" on the Gaza front and demanded a quick and harsh response.
Unlike the homemade, short-range Kassam rockets frequently launched at Israel, Katyushas have a range of close to 20 kilometers and can carry over 20 kilograms of explosives.
Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for firing the Katyusha, which landed in an open field south of Ashkelon.
Since the disengagement from the Gaza Strip this past summer, the defense establishment has raised concerns that Palestinians would succeed in smuggling Katyusha rockets into Gaza from Egypt. The Rafah border crossing, officials have said, was left "wide open" by European observers and the Palestinians allowing for the entry of senior Iranian and Syrian terror suspects.
The Katyusha fired Tuesday, military officials estimated, was smuggled into Gaza through the Egyptian border. Egyptian soldiers have taken up positions along the border since Israel pulled out of the Philadelphi corridor in August, but to Israel's dismay they have not yet clamped down on weapons smuggling into Gaza."
From: akenaton
"Katyushas also fell on Thursday morning in Kfar Nasi in the Galilee and in Kibbutz Mahanayim, and along with the rockets in Karmiel, signified an increase in the range of Katyusha rockets to 20-30 kilometers. There were no immediate reports of casualties in the attacks. Hizbullah said that in some of its attacks it was using a rocket called "Thunder 1" for the first time, which may have a longer range than older Katyushas.
On Thursday morning alone, there were confirmed Katyusha attacks on Nahariya, Rosh Pina, Kibbutz Hagoshrim, Kibbutz Mishmar Hayarden, Gadot, Kfar Nasi, Beit Hillel, Kibbutz Mahanayim, Kibbutz Kabri, Mount Hermon, Netiv Haasarah, Mount Meron, Shlomi, Zar'it. "
Dateline Nazareth....Yes, THAT one
I think that the UN should be involved in a big way RIGHT NOW. The situation will lead to a hot war (it's a barely warm war right now). I expect that if any surrounding countries decide to mass armor or to mobilize against Israel, the world will wish it had intervened, because the weapons that get used will affect the world and the course of world history. This is quickly becoming more than a squabble. It is VERY serious, IMO.
Israel is unwilling to involve the UN in war against the Palestinians....one oly has to think f the UN resolutions it would have to obey...tably the withdrawal from the illegally occupied Palestinian West Bank [RESOLUTION 242 ] .
Also those who remember these things will recall how Israeli artillery slaughtered 109 Lebanese civilians inluding many women and children sheltering at a UN checkpoint called Qana.
Only last week the newly formed UN Human Rights commission voted to condemn Israel actions in Gaza only to have the vote vetoed by surprise,surprise, the USA supported by Britain, France and Germany.
On saturday there will be a protest against the attack on Gaza outside the BBC ,Manchester at 1pm.
This message has come from Gaza
"Dear friends everywhere
I live in al Twam between Beit Lahia and Jabalia camp.The Israeli troops are moving towards the area where I live .They are 2 km away.In the last 2 days 35 persons were killed and 120 injured .The Israeli troops are shooting and shelling randomly the houses of the civilians....Now while I am writing this email at 10pm ,the tanks are about 500 metres from my house .In the coming hours my home will be in the invaded and occupied areas. I do not know what might happen later.My children are hearing the shootings and explosions.They understand that they are exposed to a threat from which noone can protect them....The only thing I thought I could do was to send this appeal... and hope .
Safwat Diab
The USA has vetoed a UN motion on Israel to halt its attack on Gaza.The motion was put by Qatar on behalf of a dozen other Arab states.Britain abstained.
'"Dear friends everywhere
Safwat Diab'
That was not written by an ESL Palestinian. In fact, it is a clumcsy attempt to imitate the style of someone who has English as a second language. Cut the bullshit, Guest,David.
Have you been in touch with Rawia Hamam?
Also, knowing that you and the ifor character are involved with an organization that works directly with Palestinians makes it even more troubling that you don't see Israeli children as being human, worthy of safety from terrorist organizations. What a sick bunch you are. Bugger off.
GCMHP mean anything to you, ma'am.
I have but lightly scanned many of the intervening contributions to the thread I started, and I hope that I thereby do no-one an injustice. I think that what I was asking to discuss
has been obscured by simple Israel/Palestine ranting.
However, what I asked seems to me to have been underlined by the intervening Lebanon-Israel events.
Hamas (terrorists/freedom fighters) kidnapped one Israeli soldier [who is of course by being a soldier a military target]. This is not the act of the Palestinian authority nor the act of the Palestinian people.
Israel attacks Palestinian (Gaza) infrastructure and civilian targets.
Hezbollah (terrorists/freedom fighters) kidnap two Israeli soldiers [who are of course by being soldiers military targets]. This is not the act of the Lebanese government nor the act of the Lebanese people - although there may be some linkage.
Israel attacks Lebanese infrastructure and civilian targets, blames the government and threatens invasion.
Does no-one see the disparity? I may have to eschew the BS zone if I can find no rationality in it.
Richard: You are right, the topic has ranged a bit, but did you really expect it not to?
you wrote:-one Israeli soldier [who is of course by being a soldier a military target].
a military target is such in a time of war. Israel had unilaterally departed Gaza. If there's a war on, you have to acknowledge two (or more) sides to it, and a right to respond. Israel wants her soldier back.
I agree that the Israelis seems to be on a right tear. Reminds me of a bull in the arena that's been bloodied. Possibly they are facing the same dilemma that mechanized, organized forces face against guerrila tactics, they can't be seen to be successful, even when they are.
As to your second sentence: This is not the act of the Palestinian authority nor the act of the Palestinian people-
unfortunately the Palestinian people elected Hamas so it probably is an act of the authority with the tacit approval of the Palestinian people.
It plays into the hands of the extremists everywhere. If you recall what was going on just before things went to hell (this time) Abu Mazin was wringing concessions from Hamas as to acknowledging Israel's right to exist.
As with Afghanistan and Iraq, the terror tactics are being arranged by masters. Check out the classic: "Battle For Algiers". It's all happened before and it will keep happening as long as these tactics get people what they want.
The notion that Mamas or Hezbollah are NOT working for the Palestinian Authority is strange. Countries that harbour/aid people who attack you are your enemies. The strike at the airport: keep in mind that it landed both civilian AND military aircraft.
That said, I think the Israelis have 'lost' it. They are doing themselves incredible damage in terms of 'public relations' to say nothing of the increasing civilian death toll. The US veto of the UN wish to restrain Israel was a bad move, IMO.
As to attacking Gaza: The israelis have had terrorist attacks coming from there for years. I think until the Palestinians are not treated as pawns by the Arab countries and Israel starts treating Palestinians as people, and until folks like ifor and his crew recognize that Israelis are also people who 60 years ago were themselves refugees, then this present 'action' will NOT stop. However, it must, because what we are seeing is the beginning of a very different war--one that cannot help but escalate. Please keep in mind that if Israel is backed to the sea, they WILL use nuclear weapons. The chance of Armageddon is here and now. I think people who favour one side or the other had best take a step back (and I include myself in that statement) and realize that what is now beginning may become impossible to stop without loss of life that will be numbered in hundreds of thousands or millions. This is no longer brinksmanship. Right now, political postures do not mean a damned thing. The lack of UN intervention, the lack of restraint by Israel AND the various terrorist organizations that target Israel, may well lead to what we have feared (for most of my life anyway): specifically, nuclear war.
Reply to Peace
The letter from Gaza was printed in yesterday's Guardian newspaper [page 12 ]It came as an email to the writer of the article Ahdaf Soueif who has just written a book Mezzaterra..Fragments from the Common Ground.
A few words about the Israeli pull out from Gaza.It did withdraw some 8000 armed Zionist colonialists from Gaza.Their presence being unsustainable among the million plus Palestinian refugees that make up its population.However,since the pullout Israel has continued to attack Gaza with missiles,naval warships tanks and warplanes.Some 200 residents have been killed in quite indiscriminate attacks including the family on the beach a few weeks ago.Incidentally ,many of the Zionists evacuated from Gaza are now living on the illegally occupied West Bank and adding to the Palestinian humiliation there.
The Zionist occupation of Gazza [itself a huge refugee area ] was a study of breathtaking arrogance.The small number of Zionists controlled almost the whole of the beachfront for almost 40 years!No Palestinians allowed.They stole the best land for their settlements.They controlled the scarce water supplies and ensured that Israeli cattle got more that Paleestinian residents.They chopped up Gaza into zones making daily travel of only a few miles a torture and this went on for decades.Palestinians could be kept for hours at these checkpoints which were also closed down completely at times in acts of collective punishment.Gaza was used as a kind of giant prison an experience which the Israelis intend to continue by slightly different means.
ifor, I think you'll also recognize that Gaza has housed members of 'organizations' that attack Israel. They cannot do that without the silence of Palestinians. In fact, I think Israel should withdraw. But they will not until they receive their soldiers back. The IDF will not leave its people behind. Wrere the decision mine, I would immediately return the soldiers, stop the Hezbollah/Hamas attacks, and take away the Israeli rationale for having 'invaded'. However, I think that the people pulling the strings--in this case Arab people pulling the strings--are more than willing to sacrifice Palestinians, as many as necessary. Because their aim is the destabilization and destruction of Israel, not the formation of a sustainable, healthy Palestinian homeland.
PS,
ifor, having looked a bit around the internet, I am quite sure of a few things about you. One of those things is that you have real feelings for the Palestinian people. You are serious, and I do not doubt that you really believe in what you say--I think you would be the same in real life. Please know this: I can respect that, but please also know that my own feelings for the Jewish homeland are likely as strong as are yours for Palestinians and their wish for a homeland. I do not think it right that noncombatants are killed in wars, any wars. I extend that abhorance to the death of Palestinian AND Israeli noncombatants. I think it is just wrong. I am sorry that you do not see things the same way.
Richard B I share all of your concerns and have been following the arguments on this thread.
here is a link to the article Published on Thursday, July 13, 2006 by the Guardian , with the eyewitness account by Safwat Diab of the impact of the invading Israeli troops.
It also comments:
In October 2004, at the European Social Forum in London, an Israeli air-force pilot, Yonatan Shapira, called for sanctions against Israel. A year earlier, Shapira had refused to bomb Palestinian towns and had influenced 26 of his comrades-in-arms to do the same. He spoke of his love for his country and of his conviction that it was on the road to self-destruction. He had come to London to ask for help. Europe was Israel's only hope, he said: it must impose sanctions on his country and force it to make a real peace. About 3,000 people were on their feet cheering him.
And yes, I support Israel's right to exist within the 1967 borders.
There are many Jewish people around the world who are also opposed to the Zionist project in Israel.Take Rabbi Moishe Teitelbaum for example who was buried recently having died at the age of 91 in New York.
He was a leader of the ultra orthodox Satmar group of Hassidic Jews and was an outspoken opponent of Zionism....In his view establishing a Jewish secular entity in the Holy Land befor the advent of the Messiah was heresy
"Zionism has caused terrible bloodletting " announced Teitelbaum on avisit to Jerusalem.
The bloodletting continues with dozens of civilians killed in the past few days in the Lebanon including 17 members of two families.
From: GUEST,Albert
ISRAEL OUT OF GAZA,THE WEST BANK AND THE LEBANON!
A public meeting has been called in London this coming monday 17th July at 7pm in the Friends Meeting House , Euston Rd Central London.
Among the speakers will be
George Galloway MP
Janice Shallice Stop The War Coalition
The meeting will be demanding an end to the onslaught against the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank and the people of Lebanon.
Haifa: Too Long In Exile!
The city of Haifa in northern Israel has been attacked by Hezbollah fighters using missiles from positions in the Lebanon.
Haifa at the start of the 20th century had a poulation that was over 90% palestinian arab ...both muslim and christian.The Jewish population at that time in Haifa was about 4 % of the city.
Over the next few decades the Jewish population increased sharply because of the Zionist expansion in the country which was under British mandate.By 1948 the Jewish population was still under 50%.
With the declaration of the state of Israel the city was invaded by a 5000 strong Jewish force called the Carmeli Brigade and many of its Palestinian residents fled.They and their children have never been allowed to return despite having long established roots,property etc in the city.
"They and their children have never been allowed to return despite having long established roots,property etc in the city."
And the 820,000 Jews driven out of Arab countries- they are not entitled to be resettled in the land that the 640,000 Arabs who fled abandoned? Try blaming the ARAB nations that did not allow the refugees to settle as citizens.
Or do you insist that Jews are not human beings, who are entitled to the same justice as Arabs?
" Tehran should be called to account in the U.N. Security Council not only for its program to enrich uranium but also for its support of Hezbollah. Damascus, which hosts Hezbollah and Hamas, should also come under renewed international pressure, including sanctions. In all the diplomacy, the false lure of "evenhandedness" must not be allowed to obscure the fact that Hezbollah and its backers have instigated the current fighting and should be held responsible for the consequences."
Zionism did poison inter faith relationships in the Middle East ...and as yet there has been no recovery.
People who have a history of living in a land without interruption for over a thousand years simply will not accept a declaration from others [Zionists ] that they have a God given right to an exclusive state.
That declaration was given some legitimacy by Lord Balfour in 1917 which is all the more troubling as the man was a well known anti semite.
"In the Lebanon crisis we have a terrifying glimpse of the future: Iran and its radical allies are pushing toward war. That's the chilling reality behind this week's events. On Tuesday the Iranians spurned an American offer of talks on their nuclear program; on Wednesday their Hezbollah proxy committed what Israel rightly called "an act of war." The radicals want to lure America and Israel deeper into the killing ground, confident that they have the staying power to prevail. We should not play their game."
And the PRIMARY victims of Iran and Hezbollah will be the Palestinian people.
"that they have a God given right to an exclusive state"
So, I will assume that you support a return of all lands to the Jewish owners forcably removed in 1948 throughout the Arab world.
Question for you: Who won WW I, the Allied powers or the Ottoman Empire?
"In the past two days, about 200 rockets have been fired from Lebanon at Israeli targets, according to The Associated Press.
On Thursday, two missiles fired from Lebanon hit the center of Haifa, Israel's third-largest city -- extending beyond the range of any missiles fired at Israel from Lebanon in the past.
Israeli ambassador to the U.N. Dan Gillerman said many missiles that have been fired from Lebanon toward the northern Israel were made in Iran. ...
"Many of the long-range missiles fired into Israel in the recent days were Iranian missiles made by the same regime that is now trying to possess nuclear weapons," Gillerman said at the U.N. on Friday.
When asked by CNN what role Syria or Iran may have played in the current crisis, Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said it would be "strange" for Hezbollah to have "done this alone." "
I can picture the scene now.The Palestinian family hiding in a cellar of an apartment block somewhere in crowded Gaza. Israeli tank shells are tearing through the thin breezeblock walls upstairs , the warjets are making supersonic passes a few hundred feet above the rooftops, somewhere out at sea an unseen destroyer has fired its big guns and an apache helicopter is shooting its missile into a tower block because yet another Hamas leader is reputed to be hiding with his extended family there on the third floor.
A bomb bursts just outside, showering debris on the Palestinian family still cowering in the cellar....yes....and what does the head of the family shout out...
"Curses on Hezbollah and Iran the murderers of my people???"
Somehow I just dont see it!
Israel is hitting almost exclusively civilian targets in Gaza and Lebanon. What's more, despite a huge amount of destruction to civilian targets (both human as well as infrastructure) it is somehow, almost "magically" managing to miss hitting the guerrilla targets it says it's actually going after (while destroying all of the civilian structures all around them). Either Israelis are incredibly bad shots, or they're doing it on purpose.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/14072006/2/world-three-lebanese-killed-55-wounded-israeli-air-strikes-lebanon.html
I don't happen to believe the Israelis are such bad shots, myself.
This is, of course, more collective punishment. Which was, as I mentioned before, a favorite tactic of the Nazis.
The Palestinian Ministry of Health has reported that the Israeli armed forces are using a type of toxic or radioactive shell in its attack on the civilian population of Gaza.Some 250 people have been reported wounded so far in the shooting and shelling and the Ministry of Health spokesman said that the Israelis are using a new type of weapon which is causing serious burns and amputations of limbs.
He called for the International Community to raise its collective voice at the illegal use of these weapons on civilian non combatants.
This item can be found in full on the Palestine Solidarity Campaign's website.
I can just picture the scene. The helicopter and fast jet pilots are wondering why they're expected to share their airspace with their own sides artillery fire.
Doing so kills pilots, so it's generally avoided.
The destroyers big guns, by the way, are at most 155mm, the same size as most western self propelled artillery pieces, or only a little bigger than a tank main gun.
And the Palastinians might say some thing along the lines of 'Why can't our fighters live somewhere else'
There's never only one side to a picture
From the link in my last post...
"Israeli planes set fire to fuel storage tanks at Beirut airport late Thursday and at the Jiye power station south of Beirut early Friday. They blasted the highway between Beirut and Damascus at several places, forcing motorists to take mountain side roads to the Syrian capital.
The fighter bombers also struck overpasses, intersections and residential buildings around Hezbollah's security headquarters in the Beirut suburb of Haret Hreik. But they missed the headquarters itself.
An AP photographer who toured the area Friday said he saw no traces of damage or devastation around Hezbollah's security building.
In Jerusalem, the Israeli military spokesman's office said the Hezbollah security headquarters was targeted in the air strikes.
Hezbollah media chief Hussein Rahal Friday confirmed Hezbollah's "security square" in southern Beirut had not been hit and told The Associated Press that reports to the contrary were "not true."
The air strikes in the area of the headquarters knocked down an overpass, badly damaged another, sheered off the facades of buildings, shattered apartment windows and sent balconies crashing onto cars parked below...
...A young man with blood pouring down his face and onto his bare chest was shown on Lebanese TV walking out of a damaged apartment building.
The TV showed a missile had gouged a huge crater out of the main Mar Mikhail crossroads in southern Beirut.
Firemen were seen struggling to put out several fires as glass, aluminum siding and stones littered the streets.
Israeli warships shelled the coastal highway north of Sidon, slowing down traffic considerably but not actually cutting the road, witnesses reported.
Israeli planes also hit transmission antennas for local TV stations in the eastern Bekaa Valley, a Hezbollah stronghold. Anwar Raja of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command said the planes struck the communications towers, but did not hit the guerrillas' base at Qousaya."
This is collective punishment.
to Bunnahabhain
"The destroyer's big guns ,by the way,are at most 155mm,the same size as most western self propelled artillery pieces, only a little bigger than a tank main gun".
My God these weapons are mere peashooters!...Its always good to be corrected by a military man.
You state "Israel is hitting almost exclusively civilian targets in Gaza and Lebanon. "
"...Nasrallah, soon after Israel's military reportedly hit his home and destroyed Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. "
"Israeli aircraft also carried out more airstrikes on a Hezbollah stronghold in Beirut and an airstrike on Hezbollah's radio station, Reuters reported, wounding at least one person. The radio station, al-Nour, remained on the air, the news agency said.
Overnight, IDF warplanes attacked 18 targets in Lebanon, including the headquarters for the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in east Lebanon.
Israeli planes also attacked Hezbollah headquarters in southern Beirut overnight, according to IDF. Bridges and roads leading to the offices were destroyed in the operation.
Along the Israel-Lebanon border, IDF attacked two Hezbollah outposts, a weapons storage facility used by militants and three fuel stations south of Sidon."
But the Hezbollah are using UNGUIDED, area bombardment rockets on civilian areas- THAT is OK with you, it seems.
"The continued rocket attacks -- including one that authorities said killed a woman and her grandchild Friday -- prompted Israel's Cabinet to approve extended military operations in Lebanon, a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said"
So, CarolC, Grandmothers and their grandchildren are legitimate military targets for Arabs, but roads, weapon storage, and C&C offices are NOT for the Israelis???????
Or is it still that Jews are not "human" enough for you?
IF the Israelis WANTED to inflict civilian casualties, in three days the would have killed a LOT more that the present reported numbers.
Almost all of the civilians killed so far in all of the hostilities in all of the effected areas, beardedbruce (this includes Israel as well as Lebanon and Gaza) have been people who were not Israelis, but were Gazan and Lebanese civilians. So when you say this...
I must assume that you believe that one Jewish life is worth more than dozens of Palestinian and Lebanese lives. Which would also be in accord with the prevailing veiw held by the Israeli government.
"Almost all of the civilians killed so far in all of the hostilities in all of the effected areas, beardedbruce (this includes Israel as well as Lebanon and Gaza) have been people who were not Israelis, but were Gazan and Lebanese civilians."
And THEIR blood is on the hands of HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH.
You seem to think that targetting old women and children deliberatly, as Hamas and Hezbollah do, is not worthy of comment, but the death of civilians while attacking a legitimate military target is a crime- WHICH THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS have defined as being the crime of the side which PLACED the military target in a civlian area. IF there are war-crime trials, as there should be, the ONLY evidence so far indicates HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH are guilty, by their choice of prohibited areas to locate military depots, headquarters, and targets.
The Palestinian fighters hold exactly one Israeli soldier prisoner
Hezbollah in the Lebanon hold two soldiers prisoner.
The three were captured in military firefights.
In contrast Israel holds thousands,possibly tens of thousands, of Palestinians,men ,women and children in prison.Many of these were kidnapped by the Israeli military from refugee camps in the illegally occupied West Bank.
The Israelis are holding hundreds of Palestinian children in prison cells.Why are they inside?Did they scratch the paintwork of a car belonging to a Zionist colonialist?
The prisoners are being held in appalling conditions sometimes for up to 25 years.The food is disgusting,they are not allowed enough water,medical treatment is poor and torture and illtreatment is commonplace.
"I must assume that you believe that one Jewish life is worth more than dozens of Palestinian and Lebanese lives. Which would also be in accord with the prevailing veiw held by the Israeli government. "
And I must assume that you believe that one Arab life is worth more than dozens of Israeli lives. Which would also be in accord with the prevailing veiw held by the Arab and Palestinian governments.
"The Palestinian fighters hold exactly one Israeli soldier prisoner
The three were captured in military firefights."
Which occurred during a direct ACT OF WAR within the PRE-1967 border State of Israel.
Only if you believe in collective punishment, beardedbruce.
Israel is targeting and killing civilians because some of its soldiers were kidnapped by guerrillas. This is collective punishment - a favorite tactic of the Nazis.
This would be a valid belief on your part ONLY if the numbers were reversed and there were dozens of (Jewish) Israeli civilians killed for every non-Jewish civilian killed.
But they aren't, and so it isn't. It is simply a very ignorant attempt on your part to score a rhetorical point.
In response to many, many acts of war by Israel in the form of bombings of civilians in Gaza over a period of many years.
"Israel is targeting and killing civilians because some of its soldiers were kidnapped by guerrillas"
As I stated, this is unsupported. IF Israel was targeting civilians, the casualties would be far greater.
Thus, since the premise is false, the conclusion that "This is collective punishment " is invalid.
"This would be a valid belief on your part ONLY if the numbers were reversed and there were dozens of (Jewish) Israeli civilians killed for every non-Jewish civilian killed."
Hardly. The Hezbollah use of area bombardment rockets against a civilian region is proof of direct targeting of civilians- YOU have provided no such proof of deliberate targeting of civilians not at or near military targets by the Israeli armed forces. Roads, munition depots, headquarters, and fuel depots are all legitimate military targets.
In response to many, many acts of war by Palestinians in the form of bombings of civilians in Israel over a period of many years....
FREE THE OTHER ISRAELI PRISONER!
While the people of Gaza are imprisoned in their city and the refugee camps and cities of the West Bank are threatened by by the Israeli military it is worth mentioning an Israeli civilian who remains a prisoner of the Israeli state.
Mordechai Vanunu ,a former nuclear technician in the Negev desert, did much to reveal the extent of Israel's nuclear weapons capability.
For this crime he was kidnapped from Rome and served 18 years in an Israeli jail.Eleven years were served in solitary confinement.
After his release in 2004 he was prevented from leaving Israel. He has renounced the Jewish faith and his Israeli citizenship and wants to move to another country where he can live in peace. He is unable to leave and now lives under close monitoring amid threats from right wing Zionists in a christian church annexe.
Israel is prepared to kill innocents in order to free its captured soldiers but when will it free Mordechai Vanunu?
Since the beginning of the current conflict, the Hamas terrorist
organization is responsible for carrying out 425 various terrorist attacks
which resulted in the killing of 377 and wounding of 2,076 Israeli citizens
and soldiers.
The Hamas organization has carried out 53 suicide attacks, killing 289
Israelis and injuring 1,649.
A Chronology of Terrorist Attacks Carried out by the Hamas Since September
April 17,2004 - A border policeman killed, an Israeli civilian injured,
and two border policemen injured, when a suicide bomber exploded himself at
the workers terminal crossing at the Erez industrial area.
March 14, 2004 - Two suicide bombers detonated an explosive belt and an
explosive bag at the Ashdod port. Ten Israelis were killed and 12 injured.
March 6, 2004 - Suicide bombers traveling in three vehicles drove into the
Erez crossing, and detonated two car bombs at Palestinian checkpoints, while
firing at the Israeli checkpoint. Two Palestinian policemen were killed.
Jan. 29, 2004 - A suicide bomber detonated a bag laden with explosives on a
No. 19 bus line on Aza Street in Jerusalem. Ten Israelis and one foreigner
were killed and 44 were injured.
Jan. 14, 2004 - A female suicide bomber wearing an explosive belt detonated
herself at the workers terminal in the Erez crossing, resulting in the death
of four Israelis and the injury of five.
Sept. 9, 2003 - A suicide bomber detonated an explosive device at the
entrance of the "Hillel Café" in Jerusalem. Seven Israelis were killed and
70 injured.
Sept. 9 , 2003 - A suicide bomber detonated an explosive device at a bus
stop near the IDF "Tzrifin" Base. Nine IDF soldiers were killed and 10 were
injured.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
more here http://www.aipac.org/hamas/hamasAttacks.htm [please limit C & P]
AND THE WALL CAME DOWN
It has just been reported from Gaza that Palestinian fighters have blown a large hole in the security wall separating Egypt from Gaza.
Hundreds of people trapped on the closed border were able to brush past security guards and enter Gaza .
IF Israel was targeting civilians, the casualties would be far greater.
This is unsupported supposition on your part.
Hardly. The Hezbollah use of area bombardment rockets against a civilian region is proof of direct targeting of civilians
They didn't start firing rockets until Israel invaded and bombarded Lebanon. But if they are firing into civilian areas, then they, too, are targeting civilians.
YOU have provided no such proof of deliberate targeting of civilians not at or near military targets by the Israeli armed forces. Roads, munition depots, headquarters, and fuel depots are all legitimate military targets.
As are Israeli soldiers. But killing civilians and targeting roads, power plants, residential areas and other civilian infrastructure is NOT a legitimate response for the kidnapping of soldiers, but is, in fact, collective punishment.
In response to an illegal military occupation of their lands, and complete subjugation of and ongoing ethnic cleansing of their people.
Lest you forget, beardedbruce, for every Jewish Israeli civilian you can list who has been killed by Palestinians, there are SEVERAL Palestinian civilians who have been killed by Israelis. You are, again, placing a much higher value on the lives of Jewish Israelis than on people who are not Jewish Israelis. This is, by the way, racism.
"IF Israel was targeting civilians, the casualties would be far greater.
This is unsupported supposition on your part."
Yet YOUR statements as to the intent of the Israeli government, in opposition to the statements by that body, are to be given some value as being supported? I do not think so.
You can't have it both ways: If the Israeli military is so strong and powerful, why is it they are killing less civilians that the average day of suicide bombers in Iraq, IF they were targeting them?
If the Israeli military is so strong and powerful, why is it they are killing less civilians that the average day of suicide bombers in Iraq, IF they were targeting them?
There are all kinds of reasons why they might hold back the full force of their strength. But there are no reasons other than collective punishment for the response they have chosen for the kidnapping of two of their soldiers.
"Lest you forget, beardedbruce, for every Jewish Israeli civilian you can list who has been killed by Palestinians, there are SEVERAL Palestinian civilians who have been killed by Israelis."
Least YOU forget, the Palestinians are TARGETING civilians, while the Israelis are targeting those who are making bombs and launching rockets. If THEY are not valid military targets, then you are right-
But I claim the number of civilians DELIBERATLY targeted would show a far greater number of Israeli dead than Palestinian.
You have never seemed to comprehend that civilians killed while attacking a military target are a different thing than civilians deliberatly targeted as civilians. Still regretable, and all step[s should be taken to reduce that number to the absolute minimum possible, but NOT the same. IF the terrorists/freedom fighters choose to have military targets in civilian areas, as prohibited by the Geneva conventions, there will always be the chance of innocents being killed or injured.
"But there are no reasons other than collective punishment for the response they have chosen for the kidnapping of two of their soldiers. "
Oh, really? You think that the roads would not be used to transport troops, supplies, and the Israeli kidnap victims? IF there was collective punishment, there would be attacks on UNRELATED civilian infrastructure- which I do not see as the case- Transportation and power systems are legitimate military targets, to deny the enemy suppiles, movement, and immpact the ability to fight.
While Hezbollah would launch its rockets with the goal of causing mass casualties to shock and demoralize the Israeli population, they would also likely attempt smaller but more devastating infrastructure assaults. High-value targets would include the industrial section of Haifa, whose sprawling petrochemical plants and oil refinery would be vulnerable to bombardment. The loss of the Haifa refinery, one of only two such installations in Israel, would threaten Israel's economic security. Hezbollah could also launch rockets against the city's port and Matam Park, a hub of Israeli high-tech development. Even minor damage could lead to serious disruptions in Israel's delicate economic framework. The vulnerability of the Israeli economy to a Hezbollah rocket attack was demonstrated by events in 1996 when the group fired over 500 Katyushas into northern Israel; Israeli officials placed the cost of the relatively minor two-week assault at approximately US$100 million.[11]
http://www.meforum.org/article/806
This is bullshit. Israel has been targeting civilians for a long time. Even members of the IDF say this is true.
Still regretable, and all step[s should be taken to reduce that number to the absolute minimum possible, but NOT the same. IF the terrorists/freedom fighters choose to have military targets in civilian areas, as prohibited by the Geneva conventions, there will always be the chance of innocents being killed or injured.
Oh, come off it. You (and the government of Israel) are just hiding behind plausible deniability. There is no truth whatever to their claims or yours.
They are targeting civilians as they have been since they started their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians even before Israel's war of independence. The massacres of many hundreds of civilians from Palestinian towns and villages before, during, and after Israel's War of Independence, and the many massacres and killings of Palestinians civilians and civilians in other countries since then proves Israel's assertion that they don't target civilians to be the Big Lie that it is.
And by the way, if you (and Israel) insist that killing civilians is justified if a military target is what is being aimed for, then by the same logic, all of Israel's civilian areas are military targets, because members of the IDF (and the proto-Israeli terrorist organizations prior to Israeli statehood) have been cleverly (and insideously) hiding themselves amongst the Israeli civilian population since before Israel declared itself a nation.
Lessee, ifor posted three times since my last post without a word of answer regarding whether or not Israel is entitled to any borders, which CarolC was kind enough to grant so long as they are the '67 borders. ifor seems to indicate that he/she/it does not accept Israel under any circumstances within any boundries.
Let me repeat my question directed to you from
10 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM,
Do you, ifor, support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?
Otherwise, what do you bring to the party? The party being, in this forum, any indication that you allow Israel any rights to do anything as a sovereign state.
The heated words in the light of current events indicate why these current events are, sadly, current. Anything may be done to Israelis, the crimes begin when the Israelis react. No gauge can be put on Israeli reaction since with this theory anything Israel does is over-reaction.
Typically when you attack the soldiers of a country that is an act of war.
"This is collective punishment."
And firing rockets into Haifa is not?
Carol: To be clear on one thing: Do Palestinians (or groups working on their behalf) target civilians?
I was looking at the news on my screen this evening and it seems that an Israeli warship operating in Lebanese waters has been hit by a rocket fired by Hezbollah.
It does seem that ifor, David and the scads and oodles of other college students who seem to be posting here under GUEST names do not so much care about Palestinians as they do about hating Zionists, Israelis and in the final analysis, Jews. They do not so much care for people as they do for ideologies. They seem to be little better than the folks they condone: Hamas, Hezbollah, and if this were decades ago, the Red Brigades. I don't doubt they'd have though the murders of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics was just. They would no doubt have complained about the bad people who shot the hijackers and freed the passengers at Entebbe.
Until such time as they and those who support them state that the life of an Israeli child has the same value as the life of a Palestinian child--or any other child for that matter, they can collectively kiss my ass.
From: GUEST,james
"Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said on Friday evening that his group is ready for "open war" with Israel and warned that an Israeli warship operating off southern Beirut will be destroyed.
Speaking defiantly in an audiotape aired on Hizbullah's Al-Manar television, Nasrallah addressed himself to Israelis, saying: "You wanted an open war and we are ready for an open war."
"Look at the warship that has attacked Beirut, while it burns and sinks before your very eyes," Nasrallah said. It was not clear whether he meant that the warship had already been attacked.
The Israeli army said an Israeli naval ship was in Lebanese waters, apparently by a rocket. The damage was not serious and there were no injuries, a spokesman said. Officials would not give the vessel's exact location."
As result of this crap, Israel will, within 24 hours, do some serious damage to Beirut. Welcome to the world when neither side will listen.
exactly, Peace.
Seems there was this soccer player from Italy who kept harassing this other soccer player from France....after awhile, the French one head-butted the Italian.
Who is at fault, the one who kept poking, or the one who over-reacted?
That's right...**BOTH**....the metaphor only goes so far, but when the entire area is a smoldering ruin unfit for ANYONE, I'm sure it will be of great solice to know *THEIR* leaders didn't back down.
Carol and bruce...I know and like you both, but this eternal list-making of 'offenses' by the other side and 'righteous reply' by the other side is getting beyond ridiculous!
There ARE no halos or winners in this abysmal idiocy!
One solution to the current problem is the one proposed by the Palestinian fighters 2 weeks ago.
The Israeli soldier is released in Gaza and in return Israel releases all women and children prisoners.
A similar deal could be worked out with Hezbollah...or have I missed something?
Peace, re: your 14 Jul 06 - 04:19 PM post, please see my 14 Jul 06 - 03:38 PM post.
Yes, they do.
The Palestine Solidarity Campaign has called for a "candlelit vigil "outside the House of Commons in central London from 9pm until 10.30 on tuesday the 18th July while the House sits late.
The vigil is to show solidarity with the people of Gaza,the West Bank and the Lebanon who are being attacked by Israeli military forces.
Maybe not, but there ARE occupiers and those who are living under military occupation. There is a world of difference between these two categories. You ought to know that, Bill.
I recall one time as a kid when gangs were the norm. It was a necessity where I grew up because of the 'hatreds' and 'turf wars' that took place. It wasn't that most of us wanted to belong to a gang; it was just that we perceived it to be a matter of survival. After five guys steal your lunch or lunch money a few times either before or after they beat you up, well, eventually you seek out others who have had the same problem and begin to carry combs. (Gang members from the 1950s will understand that.) Sooner or later, someone pulls a knife on someone else, or they use a chain to whip an 'enemy' and then someone else has to begin carrying a piece. Eventually the cops get involved because sooner or later someone ends up in the hospital needing lotsa stitches to close a puncture or a slash wound. Then someone else gets a few ribs caved in and maybe their testicles kicked up into their pelvis. Then it's necessary to re-establish ownership of turf, because things are getting crazy. Then you see that it's a good thing to join forces with another gang because there seems to be safety in numbers. Then it's no longer about lunches and combs and turf. Then it's about gangs. And what do you do when a ten-year-old asks a twelve-year-old for sagely advice about whether to carry a switch blade or a gravity knife, and what's the best way to fight in close: blade up, down or sideways facing in or out? And is it a good idea to carry a throwing knife also? And what's the best way to hide a 'serious' weapon? Kids, huh? What are ya gonna do!?
Thank you, Carol.
This all comes from one fundamental fact: Refusal of most of the Arab nations and their "Palestinian" bully-boys to recognized Israel. If Israel had been accepted by 1967 none of the rest of this would be happening.
ifor is a witness to this by his/her/its very inability to form any idea of acceptance of the State Of Israel, so by his/her/its very own words and positions we are given to understand what Israel is up against, as well as anyone who wishes peace for the region.
AN EXPOSED NERVE
In her book DRINKING THE SEA AT GAZA Amira Hass tries to explain why she ,an Israeli journalist, wanted to live in poor,dangerous and rundown Gaza.
"In the end " she wrote
"my desire to live in Gaza stemmed neither from adventurism nor from insanity, but from that dread of being a bystander from my need to understand , down to the last detail a world that is -to the best of my political and historical comprehension - a profoundly Israeli creation.To me, Gaza embodies the entire saga of the Israeli -Palestinian conflict; it represents the central contradiction of the state of Israel- ademocracy for some,dispossession for others;it is our exposed nerve"
There is no reason on earth why they should have recognized Israel. However it is a lie to say that most of them did not do so. Many of them tried, but Israel would have none of it.
All of what has happened and is happening right now would have happened no matter what the "Arab" nations did or didn't do, because Israel has always created pretexts for committing acts of aggression against its neighbors for the purpose of taking more territory. And it will continue to do so, to the detriment of both the Palestinians as well as the Israelis, until either the people of Israel make them stop, or Israel succeeds in wiping out all of the people of the Middle East and possibly other parts of the world as well.
Until such time as you recognize the right of Israel to exist, your words mean nothing, ifor. You care not for the poor or disenfranchised--just for YOUR choice of the poor and disenfranchised. That just ain't good enough in my book.
"...but there ARE occupiers..."
and you ought to know that there are varying definitions of "occupiers", Carol ...it is NOT cut & dried & simplistic.
There was an editorial in the Wash. Post today that explained it...it is, in the last analysis, about whether Israel shoud even exist or not.....and THAT is not cut & dried, either!
Christian, Jews, Muslims...all have historical roots in the region. They **should** share the place......fat chance!
Anwar Sadat tried to work it out a few years back....seems that wasn't appreciated by HIS side.
Where was I?
"Palestinian bully-boys " writes Robomatic.Mmmm.......Well it is avery rare sight to seem teenagers armed with rocks and sticks take on one of the mightiest armies in the world but that is what happened during the two Intifadas.
You remember the ones when the Israeli chiefs sent out orders to break the bones of the teenage stone throwers they caught. Mind you,they also shot hundreds then and are still shooting now.But bully-boys ? I think not.
Message to Bill D
The UN resolution 242 calls on the Israelis to withdraw from the occupied West Bank.It is not a part of Israel.
Also the Palestinian poulation is both Christian and muslim.
Israel will continue to exist--or the mid-East will discontinue to exist. Amongst all the rhetoric and 'he pushed me back first' talk, the central issue is that reactions are getting stronger, and eventually the reactions will become stronger and slightly more disproportionate. None of this will mean a damned thing, no one's arguments about right, wrong, truth, justice. And until such time as thinking people grasp that, the war will escalate. And when the desert sands cool in fifty thousand years, anthropologists will look back on the written record here and ask, "Why didn't they stop it?"
Ok, I will rephrase...
There are occupiers and those who are living, with no civil rights or human rights whatever, under a brutal military occupation. That is about as cut and dried as it is possible to get.
No it isn't. It is, in the last analysis, about whether or not Israel should continue to expand its borders and keep millions of people under a brutal and totalitarian military occupation, and to continue to commit acts of aggression against its neighbors.
Back to our regularly scheduled program . . . .
Israel will continue to exist--or the mid-East will discontinue to exist.
This needs to be rephrased as well...
"Israel will take what it wants, or the mid-East will discontinue to exist.
Whatever, Carol. It won't change the result. This is not about who's right anymore. It is far beyond that. Stop letting your hatred of Israel cloud your perception. Right and wrong no longer matter.
Stop letting your hatred of Israel cloud your perception. Right and wrong no longer matter.
This is an act of incredible intellectual dishonesty on your part, Peace.
I do not hate Israel. I want Israel to stop its insane policies, and to start behaving like civilized people in the Middle East.
At least I recognize Israel and it's right to continue its existance.
I've never once seen you recognize the Palestinians right to continue their existance. When you support the policies and practices of the government of Israel as they have been carried out in the past and continue to be carried out, you are providing them with help for doing what they are doing and have done.
It will not be until people like you and all of the people in countries like the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, and other such places tell them that they will not be supported in their acts of agression that any of this will come to a peaceful end.
As long as people like you provide them with cover for their activities, they will continue to do them, and there will not be an end until everybody in the region is dead.
But if enough people would apply pressure to the government of Israel stop these practices, they would have no choice but to stop.
I can only conclude that it is your hatred of Arabs, Palestinians, and Muslims that prevents you from doing so.
And I want the various terrorist networks who ply their trades on behalf of 'Palestinians' to stop what they are doing.
As to intellectual dishonesty, clarify something: What would you envision as a 'just' settlement for the mid-East so that Israel remains as a Jewish homeland and the Palestinians also have a viable homeland?
BTW, Hatred for Palestinians? No, Hatred for organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah? Yes.
Well put Peace...
Unless one side or the other backs down within the next week or so, the prospect of a full scale war, probably with Syria, lomms very large indeed. Both sides are so deeply mired in blood and blame it no longer matters who did what.
Only the Israelis can back down. Their armed forces can be controlled, whilst the irregular forces in Gaza, the West Bank, Syria and Lebanon cannot. There needs to be the strength of will to order the army not to respond to provocation. One side hides its millitary targets in the midst of civilains, and the others use collective punishment. Unless this bloodbath is stopped soon, these war crimes will not be rememberd, except as footnotes to far more terrible things.
The real irony is that if Ariel Sharon, the blood soaked monster so many round here love to hate was stil in charge, the Israeli people would not have demanded action from him when the first soldier was kidnapped, and this last month would have been very different. The huge and diproportionate response was mainly the result of a new goverment wanting to re-assure its people that it took national security seriously. What a mess.....
Hezbollah are not the Lebanese government.
The military wing of Hamas is not the Palestinian government.
The people of each place may sympathise with the (terrorists/freedom fighters) but they are not the actual fighters or killers.
Even if retribution by Israel against Hezbollah and against the military wing of Hamas were justified (sort of rather like the British Army shooting IRA terrorists don't you think?) how would that justify Israel destroying the infrastructure of the Lebanon and Gaza, and killing the civilian population there?
Well, you'd better start applying pressure to the government of Israel to end the occupation, and the governments of the US, Canada, Australia, and the UK to put pressure on the government of Israel to end the occupation, or that will never happen.
Human Beings don't submit willingly to total subjugation and bondage. That is a fact of life that will never change, no matter how many nuclear weapons are involved.
Israel retreats to the Green Line, recognises the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians, allows a *nominal* right of return... this means allowing a small token number of elderly Palestinians to return to Israel (so they can die in the land they consider home, as a conciliatory gesture and as a recognition of their legitimate grievances), and leaves the Palestinians alone to get on with the process of building their country. Holy sites in Jerusalem should be protected by the international community. The majority of Palestinians will agree to these things, and once they have them, they will fight against anyone within their society who would try to endanger them by harming Israel or Israelis.
Old Blevins
We had a little quarrel, she and I
She told me just to curl up and die
I crept out to drown my sorrows
At a joint called No Tomorrows
Where the old man came and looked me in the eye
I could tell he had some wisdom to impart
Some story that was etched and burned and stamped
Upon his heart
Then his eyes began to glisten
'Cause he could see that I would listen
We sat there at that bar 'til nearly three
And this is what Old Blevins said to me
He said "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
In Tijuana blah blah blah back in 1963
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
You should have been there blah blah blah
Is what Old Blevins said to me
I sat there and I listened to his words
As they flapped around my head like little birds
Had he gone plumb 'round the bend
Or could I just not comprehend
His lips were writing lines I could not read
When suddenly, it all came clear to me
As he said "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Then crazy hippies blah blah blah blah no effect on me
The Great Depression blah blah blah
And he would not leave me be
Old blevins was still talking when I seized my chance to flee
Back home she's never known I'm not the fool I used to be
Buy I know that a man and woman's lives were somehow changed
By a loathesome toothless geezer, incoherent and deranged
And my memories of that evening fuel and inner mounting fear
That I might become old Blevins anywhere that they sell beer
And I'll say "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
I don't remember blah blah blah blah blah blah
How 'bout them Cowboys? blah blah blah
Like Old Blevins used to say
"Israel retreats to the Green Line, recognises the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians, allows a *nominal* right of return... this means allowing a small token number of elderly Palestinians to return to Israel (so they can die in the land they consider home, as a conciliatory gesture and as a recognition of their legitimate grievances), and leaves the Palestinians alone to get on with the process of building their country. Holy sites in Jerusalem should be protected by the international community. The majority of Palestinians will agree to these things, and once they have them, they will fight against anyone within their society who would try to endanger them by harming Israel or Israelis."
That I can agree with. Thank you, Carol. A goal worth going after. Now, what can be done to shut down the terrorist organizations after what you have proposed gets put in place? Because we know they will not stop.
Now, what can be done to shut down the terrorist organizations after what you have proposed gets put in place? Because we know they will not stop.
Israel will protect its borders along the Green Line, and as I said in my last post, the majority of Palestinians will fight against any organizations that would seek to jeopardize their independent nation by committing acts of terror in their name, and will cooperate with Israel in keeping their borders secure.
The terrorist organizations will no longer have the Palestinians to use as a rallying cry, and their attention will then shift to the other governments of occupation in the region, namely, the US and the UK.
Peace, carol C, i agree too. That is an eminetly fair and sensible soulution, and the Palstinain people policing the millitants deserves at least the benefit of the doubt.
The only thing missing from it was very simple. All countries recognise Israel and Palestine and their borders.
Now, if there was a way to convince the Powers that this is a good thing . . . .
BTW, Carol I was wrong to say you hate Israel. I do know it's their policies you are against. My apologies for that remark.
MARK TWAIN TRAVELS TO JERUSALEM
[Mark Twain has found the 1860's Holy Land to be a desolate wasteland, sparsely populated and poverty-stricken. As they trek down to Jerusalem, the troupe finds only one location that is well-cultivated - the habitation of an ancient group of Jews in Shechem.]
Chapter 49:
...It was hard to realize that this silent plain had once resounded with martial music and trembled to the tramp of armed men... A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action...
...We never saw a human being on the whole route, much less lawless hordes of Bedouins. Tabor stands solitary and alone, a giant sentinel above the Plain of Esdraelon...
...The narrow canyon in which Nablus, or Shechem, is situated is under high cultivation, and the soil is exceedingly black and fertile. It is well watered, and its affluent vegetation gains effect by contrast with the barren hills that tower on either side.
For thousands of years this clan have dwelt in Shechem under strict taboo and having little commerce or fellowship with their fellowmen of any religion or nationality. For generations they have not numbered more than one or two hundred, but they still adhere to their ancient faith and maintain their ancient rites and ceremonies. Talk of family and old descent! … This handful of old first families of Shechem…can name their fathers straight back without a flaw for thousands [of years]…. I found myself gazing at any straggling scion of this strange race with a riveted fascination, just as one would stare at a living mastodon or a megatherium…Carefully preserved among the sacred archives of this curious community is a MS copy of the ancient Jewish law, which is said to be the oldest document on earth...
[And they travel on...]
...The Further we went, the hotter the sun got, and the more rocky and bare, repulsive and dreary the landscape became… There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, and had almost deserted the country. No landscape exists that is more tiresome to the eye that that which bounds the approaches to Jerusalem...
...At last, away in the middle of the day, ancient bits of wall and crumbling arches began to line the way - we toiled up one more hill, and every pilgrim and every sinner swung his hat on high! Jerusalem! Perched on its eternal hills, white and domed and solid, massed together and hooped with high gray walls, the venerable city gleamed in the sun. So small! Why, it was no larger than an American village of four thousand inhabitants… Jerusalem numbers only fourteen thousand people...
...The population of Jerusalem is composed of Muslims, Jews, Greeks, Latins, Armenians, Syrians, Copts, Abyssinians, Greek Catholics, and a handful of Protestants. One hundred of the latter sect are all that dwell now in this birthplace of Christianity. The nice shades of nationality comprised in the above list and the languages spoken by them are altogether too numerous to mention. It seems to me that all the races and colors and tongues of the earth must be represented among the fourteen thousand souls that dwell in Jerusalem. Rags, wretchedness, poverty, and dirt, those signs and symbols that indicate the presence of Muslim rule more surely than the crescent flag itself, abound… I would not desire to live here...
Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. The hills are barren, they are dull of color, they are unpicturesque in shape. The valleys are unsightly deserts fringed with a feeble vegetation that has an expression about it of being sorrowful and despondent. The Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee sleep in the midst of a vast stretch of hill and plain wherein the eye rests upon no pleasant tint, no striking object, no soft picture dreaming in a purple haze or mottled with the shadows of the clouds. Every outline is harsh, every feature is distinct, there is no perspective - distance works no enchantment here. It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land.
Palestine is desolate and unlovely. And why should it be otherwise? Can the curse of the Deity beautify a land?
The so-called historic Palestinian homeland. Did the Jews come into a prosperous nation and divide it, or did they enter a desolate land and bring with them prosperity and trade, cultivation and health? A great deal has changed in Israel since Mark Twain's visit, and all inhabitants would do well to set aside their bombs and stones and to enjoy the benefits of living in what is now a bountiful, thriving, democratic nation.
Thanks, Peace.
Mark Twain was blinded by the bigoted and racist Orientalist attitudes that were prevalent in Western countries in his day. A pity, too, because I have lost a lot of respect for the man because of that bigoted and racist attitude. There are plenty of books and other writings from people who were far more informed about that part of the world that are not at all in agreement with Twain's account of his experiences there.
Anyone who tries to use Twain's bigoted treatise on the subject of Palestine to try to justify the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the its stranglehold on Gaza is also a bigot, a racist, and a supremacist.
And they said "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Them stinkin' Jew-boys blah blah blah blah we shall see
F'ing ragheads blah blah blah blah"
And they just would not leave us be
Back in the Dead Sea blah blah blah blah blah you must agree
And Mohammed said it in the year of six two three
Blah blah blah blah blah The Grand Mufti
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah"
Pdq, that quote from Mark Twain has nothing to do with what is happening in Gaza and Lebanon right now. Any perceptions of "ownership" or "entitlement" of land do not justify the current bombardments of Gaza and Lebanon.
After twelve years, the reconstruction of downtown Beirut (the Paris of the Middle East) was largely complete. I have a friend and colleague who is a Lebanese Christian from Beirut. He is still traumatised by the destruction that occurred during the Lebanese civil war, and his experiences then. His wife insisted he return three years ago, to see that things have changed. Now about 15,000 people are said to have crossed the Lebanese border into Syria, seeking refuge from widespread bombings carried out by F-16 warplanes. Now the situation in southern Beirut is horrific. There is no more food, no electricity or water.
"there was bombing and fire everywhere in Beirut before we left."
BTW, I shouldn't have said "Lebanese civil war", there were two many other countries involved for it to be a genuine civil war.
"The term "civil war" is not adequate due to the complexity and foreign (Iranian-Israeli-Palestinian-Syrian) military forces role in the 1975-1990 war." (Wikipedia)
I will repeat myself:
"That said, I think the Israelis have 'lost' it. They are doing themselves incredible damage in terms of 'public relations' to say nothing of the increasing civilian death toll. The US veto of the UN wish to restrain Israel was a bad move, IMO.
As to attacking Gaza: The israelis have had terrorist attacks coming from there for years. I think until the Palestinians are not treated as pawns by the Arab countries and Israel starts treating Palestinians as people, and until folks like ifor and his crew recognize that Israelis are also people who 60 years ago were themselves refugees, then this present 'action' will NOT stop. However, it must, because what we are seeing is the beginning of a very different war--one that cannot help but escalate. Please keep in mind that if Israel is backed to the sea, they WILL use nuclear weapons. The chance of Armageddon is here and now. I think people who favour one side or the other had best take a step back (and I include myself in that statement) and realize that what is now beginning may become impossible to stop without loss of life that will be numbered in hundreds of thousands or millions. This is no longer brinksmanship. Right now, political postures do not mean a damned thing. The lack of UN intervention, the lack of restraint by Israel AND the various terrorist organizations that target Israel, may well lead to what we have feared (for most of my life anyway): specifically, nuclear war."
you're right bruce, the scenario is terrifying. The sick thing is that there are people in power in Israel and the US who "believe" in Armageddon and will be influenced by their beliefs in their military decisions (shades of Ronald Raygun)
the most dangerous people are the ones who believe the only solution is military - and they're the ones in power.
I see I should never post in a discussion that I do not intend to monitor minute-by-minute....but...Carol
"...it is, in the last analysis, about whether or not Israel should continue to expand its borders and keep millions of people under a brutal and totalitarian military occupation, and to continue to commit acts of aggression against its neighbors..... "
first...Israel was gradually reducing its borders the last 10 years, as I understood it. They withdrew from Lebanon, from Gaza, destroyed settlements (with great complaints from settlers)...What am I missing here?
second...that sentence sounds like a propaganda message written by a Palestinian. I have heard ministers for Syria and Quatar say stuff like that today. "brutal and totalitarian" are value judgements...are you really qualified to pass this judgment? "acts of agression"?? What IS the difference between that and "responses to provocation"? Weren't the suicide bus bombings in Israel 'acts of agression'?
Before you treat me like an apologist for Israel, I hasten to say that I still decry Israel's degree and manner of many of their responses.
Finally, I see the growing suspicion that Hezbollah, funded and encouraged by Iran, is pushing and escalating much of this, with Israel taking the opportunity to execute long-planned incursions to neutralize Hezbollah.....in other words, as I said before, BOTH groups are hoping to play these kidnappings and responses into a larger plan...and woe be to innocent bystanders!
....and the suppliers of all the munitions that make all this possible are licking their chops!
You clearly know very little about the nature and the scope of the occupation, Bill. Israel withdrew from Gaza, but kept a stranglehold on Gaza's borders, air space, and shores, and in the process, on Gaza's economic viability. It has been bombing civilians in Gaza on a quite regular basis, for many years. It did not stop these bombings of civilians after it withdrew from Gaza.
Israel withdrew from Gaza but it is still occupying the West Bank, and it will not end the occupation there even after it dismantles a few, very small, token settlements there. It will hold on to the largest and the most intrusive aparthied settlements there, as well as confiscating for its own use, the vast majority of the West Bank's water resources.
The result of this will be that the Palestinians of the West Bank will not be able to move freely within the West Bank, but they will be held like prisoners in tiny bantustans (some people call them ghettoes), separated one from another, and separated from their orchards, fields, and their livelihoods, and with very little access to water, subjected to arbitrary checkpoints within the West Bank, subjected to being at best, humiliated and at worst, killed at the whim of Israeli soldiers (this is documented by members and former members of the IDF), and denied all of the basic human rights that we in the US say we, as a country, stand for.
Israel has not slowed down the process of disposessing many thousands of Palestinians from their homes (buldozing them into dust), but has sped up the process instead, and has sped up the process of building new settlements and increasing the size of already existing ones.
The Palestinians will continue to live with no legal protections, no civil rights, no human rights... no rights whatever. If you think anyone has a right to do this to an entire civilian population consisting of more than a million people, then you are a bigot and a racist as well.
second...that sentence sounds like a propaganda message written by a Palestinian. I have heard ministers for Syria and Quatar say stuff like that today. "brutal and totalitarian" are value judgements...are you really qualified to pass this judgment?
I'm as qualified to pass judgement on the Israeli occupation as I was to pass judgement on Jim Crow in the US south, Apartheid in South Africa, and on the Nazis for their crimes against humanity. If you think that standing up for human rights is propaganda, then you are hardly the humanitarian I had taken you to be. You need to learn a hell of a lot more than you currently do about the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands before you will be in a position to tell me what I am saying is propaganda.
"acts of agression"?? What IS the difference between that and "responses to provocation"? Weren't the suicide bus bombings in Israel 'acts of agression'?
Suicide bombings are always a response to occupation, regardless of who commmits them. So therefore, they are always a response to provocation. Nobody has a right to subjugate another people. I condemn suicide bombing as a tactic because it targets civilians. But the occupation is the catalyst for this behavior. This is true everywhere in the world where foriegn governments subject civilian populations to military occupation.
What sophistry--a fancy word for bullshit--is here at Mudcat, especially by the Palestinean apologists!
"Hezbullah is not the government of Lebananon"...Hezbullah comprises a part of the Lebanese government.
"The militant arm of Hamas is not the Palestinean government"...it is Hamas and Hamas is the current government of Palestinean Gaza.
Israelis have not retaliated againt Gaza and Lebanon because a couple of soldiers have been killed or captured. That was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back for months of rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon and the occasional murderous suicide bombings.
While the Palestinean apologists profess to have no animus against Israelis, per se, any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel. I have more respect for those who are honest enough to espouse outright destruction; I disagree with that of course.
You think only Israelis are subject to having straws break their camel's backs, John? Or that they are the only ones who are entitled to have any rights at all? (Clearaly you do). You probably consider the Israelis to be the only human beings currently living in the Middle East.
And you are also obviously one who supports the use of collective punishment, a favorite tactic of the Nazis.
Carol, it's been a tactic of the terrorist groups who attack Israel, too.
CarolC-Don't tell me what I think, probably or otherwise. I said exactly what I meant to say. No more, no less. You are the one who plays word games.
Yes, Peace, it has, but I'm not defending the practice, John is.
Tell you what, John, I won't tell you what you think and you won't tell people who defend human rights for Palestinians what we think. Deal?
CarolC-I have never told you or anyone else what you (they) think...I'll leave that tactic to you.
Yes you did, John, here...
...and here...
While the Palestinean apologists profess to have no animus against Israelis, per se, any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel
We're not apologizing for anyone. We are standing up for human rights.
And you're wrong that the solution that I see as equitable would have the same result as physically destroying Israel.
CarolC-You apparently do not understand the definition of 'apologist'. Suggest you get a good dictionary. I use the American Heritage College Dictionary; it's quite good. Hint: to be an apologist does not mean to apologize.
BTW, your examples of my telling you what you think are as weak as your vocabulary. Your ability to cut and paste is wonderous, your ability to analyze leaves much to be desired.
Ad hominem attacks will get you nowhere, John.
Ok, I looked it up.
So by the definition I found in the dictionary, I can safely say that you are an apologist for apartheid in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and an apologist for collective punishment (a favorite tactic of the Nazis), and for denying the Palestinians' right to exist and to have the same basic freedoms and human rights that Israelis and people in Western countries enjoy, and for the government of Israel denying its neighbors the right to defend their sovereignty and borders.
When you defend the policies and practices of the government of Israel, this is what you are defending.
You may say anything you wish. But as I have made not statements regarding whether I approve Israel's actions or not, I don't think you can safely say it. I merely pointed out the flaws in some of the pro Palestinean arguments. You use loaded terms like 'collective punishment' and 'denial of basic freedoms for Palestineans' and impute those to me and others. I don't accept those games. And lastly you bring in that boogey man term Nazi to tar me with. I don't think so Carol! Good night.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1687346.htm
You may say anything you wish. But as I have made not statements regarding whether I approve Israel's actions or not, I don't think you can safely say it. I merely pointed out the flaws in some of the pro Palestinean arguments.
You do support them. If you didn't, you wouldn't have felt the need to point out what you consider to be the flaws in what you call "pro Palestinian arguments" and you wouldn't be making those particular arguments. And you wouldn't frame it in terms like "pro Palestinian". That is the language of "anti Palestinians".
What sophistry yourself. The Lebanese government is faced with a choice between allowing Hezbullah to have a part in its government or face the dissolution of its country into another bloody sectarian war. The government of Lebanon is not responsible for the actions of Hezbullah, and it is not in a position to do much about their actions without risking such an outcome. The government of Lebanon has asked both the government of Israel and the UN to help them resolve this crisis. So far, Israel is not interested in helping them do this.
If Israel punishes the Palestinian civilians for the actions of the militant arm of Hamas, even if Hamas is the current government of Palestinian Gaza, they are using exactly the same logic that Palestinians who bomb Israeli civilians are using to justify their actions... the logic being that either Palestinian or Israeli civilians should be punished for the actions of their governments. And that logic is the logic of collective punishment, a favorite tactic of the Nazis.
Israelis have not retaliated againt Gaza and Lebanon because a couple of soldiers have been killed or captured.
Yes they have.
That was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back for months of rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon and the occasional murderous suicide bombings.
Months of rocket attacks from Lebanon?
Israel was conducting rocket attacks against Gaza, killing many civilians there, even when Hamas was conducting a year long unilateral ceasefire. Anyone who believes that Israelis are the only people who are entitled to say enough is enough is a bigot, a racist, and a supremacist.
While the Palestinean apologists profess to have no animus against Israelis, per se, any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel.
This is not true.
I have more respect for those who are honest enough to espouse outright destruction; I disagree with that of course.
More sophistry. You are implying that those who support human rights for Palestinians, by virtue of this non-sequitur of yours "any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel", are covertly supporting Israel's outright destruction.
And lastly you bring in that boogey man term Nazi to tar me with. I don't think so Carol!
Oh, but I do think so, John. Good night yourself.
You should be more careful about choosing Mark Twain as your eyewitness in Palestine in the 1860s.You claim that Palestine ,then ruled by the Ottoman Empire was a pretty backward land.
Of course the USA back then was a land built on the sweat and slavery of black people and the ethnic slaughter of the native Americans.
Palestine was a land of uneven development .The Palestinians had a growing agricultural economy with mass exports of fruit to Europe.
What is interesting about your quote is that the various nationalities and religious groups did live for quite lengthy periods in some peace and security ...but this was before Zionism was exported into the land .
Twelve Lebanese were killed by Israeli missiles today at the Lebanese town of Marwahin in the south of Lebanon.They were slaughtered in two cars while trying to flee the bombing.
At the town of Jbal al Botm near Tyre nine members of two families ,including three children,were injured when a bomb destroyed the house they were sheltering in.
Meanwhile in Gaza the Israeli military has demolished or partly destroyed 20 houses and bulldozed 30 acres of farmland and olive groves.
The Palestine Solidarity Campaign has been campaigning for several years to halt the export of lethal British military equipment to Israel on the grounds that it is being used to attack Palestinian civilians on the illegally occupied West Bank.
The equipment exported by British arms companies includes components for Apache helicopters, Merkova tanks, F16 warplanes and converted armoured personnel carries .
Campaigners believe that the sale of this equipment is an outrage at a time when hundreds of civilians in Gaza,the West Bank and the Lebanon are being attacked by air,land and sea forces.
The Palestine Solidarity Campaign website contains a great deal of information about events in Palestine/Israelincluding the terrible suffering of those wounded by shrapnel from Israeli shellfire.
The following extract is from Noam Chomsky's book The Fatal Triangle
ZIONISM RULES BUT ITS NOT OK
"The religious settlers in the West Bank operating freely with army support, take pride in creating a pogrom like atmosphere among the arabs , who must be trained not to "raise their heads" , this being the only way to treat arabs, who "adore power" and will live in peace with the Jews only when "we show him that we are strong". How?
"We enter a village shoot a bit at windows ,warn the villagers and return to the settlement. We don't kidnap people ,but it can happen that we catch a boy who has been throwing stones ,take him back with us ,beat him a bit and give him over to the army to finish the job."
The same West Bank settler also explains how official investigators act to protect Jews who shoot to kill[including firing at children]...
The above extract is from Noam Chomsky's book THE FATEFUL TRIANGLE,
According to the weekly newspaper Socialist Worker one of the Lebanese prisoners Hezbollah want released from an Israeli prison is Samir Qantar.His family say that he was arrested by the Israelis at the age of 16 in 1979 and has been held in prison ever since.According to the family he joined the Lebanese Resistance only when his country was invaded by Israel.
From: GUEST,Mahoney
It's time to flatten Iran. Now we have a good excuse.
Or let the Jews do it for us.
From: GUEST,Josh
Dear Mahoney
Keep taking the tablets but double the dose!
From: GUEST,Troy
Even after Hezbollah launched hundreds of Katyusha rockets on Thursday, wounding 90 Israelis and killing at least two, Jerusalemites remained calm.
Where you stand regarding Israel's unsought two-front war depends on how quickly you say "Kassam" and "Katyusha" when telling the story. True, Israel's supporters - and civilians -- can take pride in a country which will go to Herculean lengths to save even one kidnap victim and has made the well-being of three soldiers a national obsession.
Still, the kidnappings are a sidelight. The months-long downpour of Kassams, especially on the working-class southern town of Sderot, has shaped Israel's Summer Rains Gaza strategy. And Hezbollah's rocket barrage has made intolerable the six-year status-quo standoff.
No nation can tolerate persistent shelling from a neighbour. The question isn't "How dare Israel attack Gaza and Lebanon?" but "What took so long for Israel to respond effectively"?
On the Lebanese border, the response appeared quick - judging by the time elapsed from the moment Hezbollah ambushed the young soldiers on routine patrol until Israel began hitting central targets in Lebanon.
Yet for six years Israel has shown remarkable restraint in the north. Despite Israel's complete, unilateral withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah's Islamist radicals wanted to continue their war against the Jewish state.
Hezbollah then amassed an estimated 10,000 missiles against Israel. Hezbollah provocations, ranging from the attempted kidnapping and murder of three patrolling soldiers in 2000 to occasionally bombing northern Israeli towns, have triggered controlled responses. Israel's strategy has been to try to avoid a multi-front war. The real question, however, is why Hezbollah enjoys attacking the Jewish state so wantonly.
Similarly in the south, Israel's reactions seemed hasty only when linked to the kidnapping two weeks ago. After what they calculate to be 1,500 Kassams in 1,900 days, with eight deaths, the good citizens of Sderot resent their government's inaction. They often seem as angry at Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert as at their murderous Palestinian neighbors. "Sharon Wake Up, Olmert is in a Coma," one sign in the town square reads.
The residents have endured this harassment for far too long. Here, too, the questions easily switch from the strategic to the existential. Why is it, so many wonder, that Gaza's Palestinians have devoted their energies in the year since disengagement to trying to destroy Israel, rather than building a peaceful future?
The fact that this two-front war has been launched from areas evacuated by Israel army's has undermined the credibility of Israel's peace camp - as well as Olmert's pro-disengagement government. In Sderot on Sunday, most people blamed the Gaza disengagement for intensifying Palestinian attacks.
Moreover, the Palestinians' deadly shell game of spring and summer highlighted one of the more depressing aspects of the Palestinian-Israeli clash and a lingering source of Israeli insecurity. The widespread Hezbollah-Hamas desire to eliminate Israel, and Palestinians' success in peddling their one-sided narrative to the world remain unnerving.
To Israelis, Eliyahu Asheri was a murdered 18-year-old "teenager"; to most reporters - who carefully call terrorists "militants" and perceive a nonexistent "pragmatism" in Hamas - Asheri was a dehumanized, evil "settler." That this worldwide winning streak continues even with Hamas terrorists heading the Palestinian Authority truly is unfathomable.
A quintessential clash between Israeli facts and Western delusions followed the tragic deaths of the seven Gazan picnickers on the beach in mid-June. Even as forensic experts doubted that an errant Israeli shell was responsible, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan called Olmert, angrily demanding an inquiry. Olmert is said to have replied, "Why didn't you phone me after 30 rockets were fired at Israel and say you wanted this investigated?" In his shockingly candid, outrageously unprofessional, depressingly characteristic response, Annan supposedly said he had no idea there had been so many Kassam attacks.
With Hezbollah's Katyushas there will be no such delusions. The hints of optimism some of us detected from Mahmoud Abbas and Ehud Olmert just a few weeks ago have disappeared amid the smoke emanating from the guns of Hamas and Hezbollah. The bulk of Israel's citizen will remain safe, clustered near the population centres of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Still, Hezbollah and Hamas have helped destabilize the region, delegitimize Israel's centrist peace camp and militarize the conflict.
As the European and UN leaders issue their ritualistic calls for restraint, as if successful counterattacks against mortal enemies can be mounted politely, while more biased forces chide Israel for "collective punishment," as if the latest polls don't demonstrate widespread Palestinian support for these attacks, it is time for Israel's critics to acknowledge Israel's enemies' brazen brutality.
Hamas and Hezbollah have repeatedly called for Israel's extermination - and acted to realize their twisted ideals. While the appropriate response is debatable, chiding Israel without acknowledging the lethal realities of the challenges facing Israel reveals much about the Western capacity for self-delusion. True statesmanship requires honest evaluations not blind moral equivalence. Especially this month, Israel has been victimized enough.
Outsiders need the same brazen honesty as Israel's enemies, while using those skills to find a new more stable status quo rather than triggering unnecessary and unsought wars.
"Especially this month ,Israel has been victimised enough" says Troy.
Israel has one of the most deadly killing machines in the world and has spent decades perfecting its use.
It murders civilians with regular impunity.
It pursues Palestinian refugees and slaughters them in their refugee camps.
It has illegally occupied the West Bank since 1967 and kills,imprisons and humiliates at will.
It shells Gaza from the sea,from the air and from the land .
It kills civilians,young and old,infant and the infirm without restraint.
It is bombing hell out of the Lebanon where it has a history of attacking civilians.Remember Qana ...and those Mudcat readers who don't... do look it up.170 Lebanese refugees slaughtered at a UN base by Israeli artillery shells.
Israeli armed forces supervised the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila camps in Beirut in 1982 where literally thousands of Palestinian women,children and old people were butchered by Israel's fascist allies despite US guarantees for their safety.
When the Palestinians have gone to International courts of Law to defend their rights they have been ignored by the Israeli military.
From: Ron Davies
It appears Carol is correct in her view about the role played by Hezbollah in the Lebanese government. They have made themselves essential to any coalition. Story of how they did it is detailed in the Wall St Journal 10 July 2006.
First of all, they engendered much good will in Lebanon by their extensive social services work--"far more efficiently than the Lebanese government in many areas". Hezbollah "turned the goodwill engendered by its social-services work into political might".
In the campaign for seats in Lebanon's 128-member Parliament, 12 Hezbollah members won seats. They turned the campaign into a referendum on whether Hezbollah should be able to keep its armed military wing.
Mr. Bush aided this process. A winning line in speeches was "The Americans have a big project against the Arab world--Iraq, now Syria, and next Hezbollah. And we must resist".
"When the results came in June 2005, Hezbollah and a few parties it had aligned with were huge winners, taking the maximum 35 parliamentary seats available to Shiite Muslims."
They made a demand that "all major government decisions, including the question of Hezbollah's weapons, be decided through consensual agreement, rather than a straight vote of the cabinet ministers. Coalition partners--the biggest was Future Movement, led by a son of the slain Mr. Hariri--needed Shiite representation in their government, and agreed to the conditions. That gave Hezbollah the power to veto just about anything it opposed."
Anybody who thinks Israeli attacks on Lebanon will cause the Lebanese government to jettison Hezbollah should consider whether the firebombing of German cities by the Allies hurt the German war effort--or pulled the German people together in adversity.
From Wiki: Israel said it held the Beirut government responsible for the attack, but Prime Minister Fuad Siniora denied any knowledge of the raid and stated that he did not condone it. An emergency meeting of the Lebanese government reaffirmed this position. Hezbollah's action aroused varying reactions among Lebanese political forces. It was harshly criticised by many members of the largely anti-Syrian parliamentary majority, while Michel Aoun, despite his understanding with the party, declared that he supported the government's position. Outright support for Hezbolah came only from two small political forces, the Lebanese Communist Party and Suleiman Frangie's Marada party."
So why are Lebanese citizens being killed by Israel? The government of Beirut is not responsible for the attacks on Israel. Seems that ousting Syria from Lebanon is not good enough. Seems that democratically held elections do not satisfy Israel, either. Why punish the Lebanese people for something that Hezbolah has done? Hezbolah is not the government of Lebanon.
From the Wall St Journal today 15 July 2006
Hezbollah's "military is in some ways stronger than Lebanon's national forces, while the group works closely with foreign backers Syria and Iran." ..."The group has largely succeeded in carving out a de facto exception for itself (in disarming militias), since its main focus is in fighting Israel--an immensely popular cause in Lebanon and across the Arab world."
"...with Lebanon's army dominated by Shiites sympathetic to Hezbollah, it remains highly unlikely the government will mount a serious effort to disarm the group."
Dianavan--
As I've indicated, Hezbollah is not "the government of Lebanon" but it is indeed part of that government. Problem is: they have made themselves essential to any coalition--and their cause is very popular--though perhaps the scale of the rocket attacks may not be. But without them in the government, civil war in Lebanon (again) is a very real possibility.
From: GUEST,Seth
"I woke up this morning
and none of the news was good
the death machines were rumblin'
'cross the ground where Jesus stood
and the man on my tv told me
it had always been that way
there was nothing anyone could do or say
and i almost listened to him
and i almost lost my mind
then i regained my senses again
and looked into my heart to find
that i believe that one fine day all the children of abraham
will lay down their swords forever in Jerusalem
Well maybe i'm only dreamin'and maybe i'm just a fool
but i dont remember learning how to hate in sunday school
But somewhere along the way i strayed and i never looked back again
but i still find some comfort now and then
then the storm comes rumblin' in and i cannot lay me down
the drums are drummin' aga'in
and i cannot stand the sound
buti believe therell come a day when the lion and the lamb
will lay down in peace together in jerusalem
and there ll be no barricades then
there will be no wires or walls
and we can all wash this blood from our hands
all this hatred from our souls
and i believe on that day all the children of abraham
The Israeli newspaper Haraatz has reported that a 26 year old Palestinian women suffering from cancer has died after being stranded at the closed border crossing between Gaza and Egypt.
Haaretz is an interesting paper - here is today's front page - it's an opportunity to read the news that people in Israel are getting (and not getting).
"I'm as qualified to pass judgement on the Israeli occupation as I was to pass judgement on Jim Crow in the US south, Apartheid in South Africa, and on the Nazis for their crimes against humanity. If you think that standing up for human rights is propaganda, then you are hardly the humanitarian I had taken you to be. You need to learn a hell of a lot more than you currently do about the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands before you will be in a position to tell me what I am saying is propaganda."
as usual, I am concerned with reasoned argument, even as I am concerned with the rights and suffering of ALL people. What I see (on both sides of the issue, not just yours, Carol) is a "choosing of sides", then arguments constructed to justify almost anything done by the chosen side. Definitions are streched, comparisons made, questions are mis-represented, unwarrented assumptions are built into statements and conclusions drawn that are ONLY valid IF one accepts those presuppositions, definitions and comparisons. Nor do I appreciate having my statement twisted to say that I CALLED your position 'propaganda'. I was referring to the verbal similarities.
I KNOW that the conditions that most Palestinians are forced to live in is unfair and demeaning and does not offer them reasonable opportunities to live meaningful lives....this hurts and saddens me. Neither do I think that Hamas and Hezbolah have reasonable approaches to address those inequities.
I simply do not see Jim Crow, Nazis, and Apartheid as examples of what is happening in the Middle East. Nor do I accept at face value that there was any clearly defined "Palestinian lands".
You say that 'occupation IS the provocation'....but IF one accepts that it is clearly 'occupation', why is wanton murder the proper resopnse? Why is not a Martin Luther King or a Mahatma Gandhi non-violent campaign a better idea? Do you just adjust your violence tolerant threshold to define ANYTHING done by the 'oppressed' as justified?
A number of posts ago, I referred to the Post editorial in which it was claimed that the very existence of Israel was the issue....and as I read your posts, you have come within a whisker of saying just that. "Occupation IS the provocation"
What you don't realize, because I am not willing to 'choose sides' and defend either set of arguments, is that I actually SEE the point that it might have been a mistake in 1947 to create Israel at all! At that point the Jews were in 'roughly' the same position that the Palestinians are now, and they had a LOT of sympathy. They clearly needed support and some sort of reparations for centuries of persecution. But why a COUNTRY carved into lands that many people had ethnic & religious claims to?
Now we have, 60 years later, a practical problem. It is a problem much like many others in the history of the world.....it was DONE...like the 'occupation' of the USA, to the detriment of the Native Americans, the 'occupation' of Mexico by Cortez, to the detriment of the Aztecs, or the creation of Northern Ireland. What do we DO to redress the injuries?
Hamas, Hezbolah and several countries have stated policies that the situation will not be 'right' until Israel ceases to exist. Therefore, they state that they WILL continue attacks, no matter whether Israel 'withdraws', sits tight or expands. Now, whether they or you) like it or not, Israel IS a country, recognized by the UN, no matter how they got there...and AS a country, one should not be surprised to see them make the case for defending themselves against attack. If you simply, in all cases, define their defense as agression, there is nowhere to go but where it is going....the Gingham dog & Calico cat syndrome. All that can be done, without a full-scale war involving Iran, Syria, Lebanon...and perhaps the Saudis! is to snipe and hurt and make Israeli life awkward. Wonderful scenario! A full scale war there affects the entire world! And you KNOW sides will be chosen based on issues other than exalted ideas of 'right'.
The Israelis got where they are by sympathy, some adroit maneuvering, and some good luck...the Palestinians need to learn from that and use tactics other than mangled bodies. There have been short periods of calm in the area in the last 10-15 years, but in my reading of the news, it has been supporters of the Palestinian cause who felt that Israel was not being cooperative enough (and they may be right) and who therefore decided to resume atrocities to provoke more conflict.
I do NOT see Israel saying "sure...we'll just disband as a country"...and Israel has (right now) the firepower to cause more pain than they suffer. It is frustrasting to watch an Iranian bred & funded agitator force Lebanon into direct conflict with Israel...and equally frustrating to watch Israel overreact and use one or two soldiers as an excuse to escalate the situation.
I repeat...BOTH sides are being stupid and unreasonable.....and boy, they sure are provoking some unreasonable arguments as folks set their jaws and defend one side or another!
I'm thinking that both Iran and Israel are making not unconsidered moves, although Israel is more the reactor than the initiator. Iran through the actions of their associates in Lebanese Hezbollah are drawing attention from their nuclear confrontation with the rest of the world. They are also reducing a certain amount of pro-Israeli sentiment that had been developing since the Gaza pullout and the Islamic pan-European terrorism.
Israel has been concerned with the growing power of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and probably with the stockpile of weaponry which is now being used to penetrate northern Israel. They probably see this as an opportunity to cut 'em down to size. They are probably aware that every bruised knee in Lebanon will be blamed on them, but are hoping they can endure the opprobrium. With Sharon out of the picture there is no strong leader with military experience, and this is an attempt to reassure the Israeli public that they will be protected.
The difference between "stupid and unreasonable" and "logical, planned, and well thought out" is often difficult to discern.
Check out the book "The Guns of August"
yep, robomatic...all that too! It is a chess game, with a calculated plan to end up with 'victory', no matter how many pawns lie strewn beside the board.
*generalized guiding principle*
"It all depends of whose Ox is being gored!"
With the circle of violence in the Middle East expanding alarmingly, it is important to be clear about not only who is responsible for the latest outbreak, but who stands to gain most from its continued escalation.
Both questions have the same answer: Hamas and Hezbollah. And Israel needs to be careful that its far-reaching military responses, however legally and morally justified, do not end up advancing the political agenda that Hamas and Hezbollah hard-liners had in mind when they conceived and executed the kidnappings of Israeli soldiers that detonated the fighting.
The Palestinian Authority, which Hamas controls, and the Lebanese government, in which Hezbollah is a minority participant, inexcusably failed to prevent or halt these incidents. Iran, which arms Hezbollah, and Syria, which shelters the most violent wing of Hamas, also share some responsibility.
Israel is fully justified in treating these two incidents as unacceptable acts of aggression. But it needs to better adapt its methods to the circumstances it now faces. The point is to weaken and isolate Hamas and Hezbollah, while denying them opportunities to rally broader Arab support. To that end, Israel must focus its fire much more directly at the leaders and fighters of these two groups, and do far more to minimize the damage to civilian bystanders.
Here's why: The military chieftains of Hamas and Hezbollah fully understand that their primitively armed guerrillas and limited-range unguided missiles are no match for Israel's world-class military forces. When they engage in provocative operations, like the recent kidnapping of Israeli soldiers and shelling of Israeli towns, they do not expect to win any kind of traditional military victory.
What they more realistically hope for is that the inevitably fierce and devastating Israeli military response will hand them an opportunity to radicalize Arab politics and thereby pressure moderate Arab leaders to distance themselves from Israel and embrace the guerrilla cause. That is a tactic that secular Palestinian guerrilla groups like Fatah pioneered decades ago, and that Islamist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah now use for similar ends.
This perverse dynamic is again coming into play after Israel's wide-ranging forays into Gaza and Lebanon. Most Arabs are not blaming Hamas and Hezbollah for provoking these Israeli raids. They are blaming Israel for carrying them out.
That is not fair. But it is the way things work in the real world, and the provocateurs of Hamas and Hezbollah and their allies in Damascus and Tehran understand how to use it to their long-term advantage. Israel's political and military leaders need to understand it too and not let themselves be drawn into the provocateurs' game.
Published as an editorial in the New York Times July 15, 2006. I tend to agree with the editorial, but I wish the poster had given proper attribution.
While it goes without saying that increased Israeli restraint will be vital to pull the Mideast back from the brink of all-out war, those calling for Israel to let up also need to address the attacks that have driven it to act with such force: the Hamas and Hezbollah incursions and kidnappings on Israeli soil, and the continual barrage of missiles from Lebanon and Gaza.
Israel needs, and is entitled to, a quid pro quo. But it is not going to come voluntarily from Hezbollah and Hamas extremists bent on Israel's destruction, or from their backers in Syria or Iran.
There is a widespread belief that Israel and the Palestinians would eventually reach a two-state peace settlement if their attempts weren't constantly and deliberately disrupted by armed extremists.
Israel blames the Lebanese government for allowing Hezbollah free rein in the south, and the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority for not disarming the Gaza militias. It blames Syria and Iran for aiding and abetting these groups.
Although it is impossible to deny that shared culpability, it is also true that the rest of the world has pretty much sat on its hands where these peace breakers are concerned. And while it is difficult to argue with yesterday's Financial Times editorial, which said the Israeli offensive "cries out for international intervention," the same international intervention is just as sorely needed on the other side of this escalating fight.
It ought to start with the powerful industrialized countries at today's Group of Eight summit in St. Petersburg, Russia. And it ultimately would have to include Arab countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. But whatever form it takes, international intervention must aim at reducing hostilities on both sides of Israel's borders.
Those who argue that both sides in the conflict are equally to blame are copping out big time.
Time and time again the Zionists and the Israeli state have been the aggressor in the Middle East.
From the very first Zionists who arrived at the end of the 19th century they have sought to take land from the Palestinians and use force when and where necessary.The foundation of the Israeli state was founded on the "El Nakhba[the catastrophe ]" of the Palestinians who were driven out of their homes and cities at the point of a bayonet.
These refugees and their children have no right of return.
Since that time Israel has waged a long war against the Palestinian people and its near neighbours in Egypt, Syria the Lebanon and Jordan.
Israel has been backed to the hilt by the USA which has a huge responsibility for the state of the Middle East today.It has armed Israel with the latest weapons and technology and funds its economy.Without American support Israel would have gone bankrupt a long time ago.
The USA uses Israel as its terrifying guard dog in the region.Those pesky arabs have the oil which the USA regards as its own .Israel is used to keep these countries in order and their usually corrupt leaders in line.
Israel is used to pummel the Palestinians so that they "do not raise their heads".
The Zionists howl with rage when they hear criticism of Israel and its murderous policies.They have been taught to believe that Palestinian lives are worthless so that when an Israeli quarter tonne bomb pulverises a Hamas leader in his flat it matters not that innocent men ,women and children were slaughtered in the carnage.
Something similar happened today in the south of Lebanon when some 18 civilians fleeing the Israeli warplanes were incinerated in their two cars.
Reading George Bush's call for restraint today was grotesque,That butcher was responsible for Operation "Shock and Awe" which saw hundreds of cruise missiles and thousands of bombs targetted on on the people of Iraq.
Calling a sheep a dog will NOT make it bark. You should know that by now, Ifor.
Isreali warplanes have attacked the lighthouse off Beirut together with the city centre and the port area.
Yeah. I posted the following yesterday at 4:36 PM:
"The Israeli army said an Israeli naval ship was in Lebanese waters, apparently by a rocket. The damage was not serious and there were no injuries, a spokesman said. Officials would not give the vessel's exact location."
As result of this crap, Israel will, within 24 hours, do some serious damage to Beirut. Welcome to the world when neither side will listen."
From: GUEST,HUGO
According to the Ramallah based Mandela Institute for Human Rights Israel is holding 9600 Palestinian political prisoners including some 150 women and about 380 children.
The prisoners are being kept in prison camps and detention centres which do not meet internationally recognised standards.
The fighters holding the Israeli soldier in Gaza are calling for the release of the Palestinian women and children prisoners in exchange for his freedom.
Torture and abuse is common in Israeli jails and Amnesty International has many concerns about the conditions the prisoners are kept in.
And things are good in Syrian, Jordanian and Lebanese jails, right?
What you guys fail to understand is that both sides are wrong here. Until such time as you DO see that, you are really doing little here but trying to out post the people you perceive as the opposition. And those people are NOT the oppposition. I really wonder how many times you have tried to rein in Hezbollah or Hamas. Otr even if you DARE try. Likely not, because you know damned well they'd double tap you in a flash. If you really want peace in the region, then you would better get it by addressing the various parties involved who are violent and not much better than each other.
Actually, over the years the United States has given large sums of money to Egypt, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority (Until the terrorist organization Hamas gained power), and Israel. In the Soviet Era the dictator Nasser was heavily subsidized and weaponized by the Soviet Union. The PLO was funded from Soviet coffers and also the UN. The Israeli government didn't receive US government funds in any large size until the Soviets got heavily involved on the sides lf Israel's enemies.
Most of the early pioneer settlement was based on land grants from land purchases by Zionist organizations. It was only with the outbreak of war that land fell into Jewish hands as a result of how that war fell out.
Considering that Saudi Arabia and Iraq have funded the families of Homicide Bombers, that the oil money is all on one side, there is no doubt that the big money here is on the side of the Arabs. Israel is lucky to have any kind of economy at all after being forced to pay heavily in men and materials for defence.
The so-called Palestinian term Nakhba gets redefined to suit the occasion, apparently. The longer they sit in those camps and the more of them there are, the better they used to be, the more populous and prosperous the Holy Land was until it must've been a virtual paradise about the time in WWI the English and their minions kicked out the Turks. So why not let's invite the Turks back.
The charity War On Want has criticised a number of giant companies in Britain for their role in the oppression of the Palestinian people living under Israeli rule.
Connex a train company with a poor reputation in Britain has built a light railway across Palestinian land on the occupied West Bank while Tescos and a number of other supermarkets are now selling goods produced by Israeli companies on the West Bank.
Catterpillar has supplied huge bulldozers used by the Israeli state to demolish thousands of Palestinian homes again on the illegally occupied West Bank and also in Gaza.
The American peace activist Rachel Corrie waskilled by an Israeli soldier while trying to prevent one of these demolition raids.
I wonder who supplies the rockets to Hezbollah?
The expert to ask on the state of prisons in those horrible far flung dictatorships is none other than your old pal George Bush. He has spent the past five years sending prisoners [not convicted but does that matter? ] on secret "rendition" flights across the globe.
Oh and of course he also does a nice line in American prisons on Guantamano and in Afghanistan.
Would it be the same country that supplied the stinger missiles to Afghanistan all those years ago?
From: GUEST,DAN
Two more Palestinians have died at the crossing point between Gaza and Egypt.One was a man of 24.Around 1000 people are still stranded at the locked down border checkpoint in the sweltering heat.One family have been there for almost a month.
Two days ago part of the wall was blown up and some 2000 escaped into Gaza before the gap was sealed by Egyptian security police.
The Israeli army covered itself in glory 3 days ago when it ransacked a community centre housing two kindergardens for infant children.They trashed the place and left with the centre's 6 computers.The kindergardens ,situated in the town of Jericho, provides a lifeline for some of the town's poorest children.
The centre which depends on charitable funding has been left destitute.
Wedding Bell Blues
Yesterday Israeli border polie attacked a 150 strong wedding party at the village of Bi'lin on the occupied West Bank.The wedding party made up of Palestinians and international visitors were celebrating at the huge apartheid wall when the border police waded in injuring 23.
The wall has caused much anger in the village as it cuts the villagers off from their land and is a monstrosity.
From: GUEST,Girl by the whirlpool
Peace asks, "I wonder who supplies the rockets to Hezbollah?"
That would be Iran. The Iranian puppetmasters have complete control over both Hezbollah and Hamas.
"complete control over Hezbollah"--not likely. They are very likely supplying missiles--and are willing to exploit the situation, to say the least. But "puppetmasters" is bit strong. Not everything is a conspiracy.
I wonder how many Israelis have been killed?
Main question appears to be: Israelis think that by making life miserable for the Lebanese in general, they will generate enough pressure within Lebanon itself to disarm Hezbollah. Will this happen? I would guess it is unlikely--more likely outcome is to stiffen Lebanese resistance---and support of Hezbollah.
But one thing is clear--the US has little if any leverage on this, even if Bush were to try--which he won't.
This is a bad mistake.
The NU has GOT to get in there now.
Where the F is the UN?
"none other than your old pal George Bush."
He ain't MY old pal, pal.
Problem is the vast majority of the UN will want to put pressure on Israel. To do that you would have to convince Israel that its attacks on Lebanon are not necessary for survival.
Hezbollah has to cease its attacks too. The headquarters was hit in Shiite neighbourhood. Like, no one knew it was the headquarters, right? No one here but us innocents.
"Hezbollah said its leader Hassan Nasrallah was unhurt after Israeli missiles blew up his home in Beirut and one of the group's offices. Israeli officials acknowledged that the strikes were aimed at killing him."
So, the Lebanese government doesn't support terrorist action?
"Those who argue that both sides in the conflict are equally to blame are copping out big time."
No, they are refusing to see one side as evil perpetrators and the other as innocent victims.
Until both sides take responsibility for their actions and stop finger pointing, playing victim, and using that as an excuse for further massacres, bombings and other violations, this conflict will continue unresolved leaving a trail of bodies on both sides.
Both "sides" have documents attempting to prove their historical right to the land. Both sides document the horrible crimes by the other side against their people.
I have a colleague who worked as a negotiator in Northern Ireland. His job was to get people listening to each other, genuinely listening to their experiences until they felt someone was finally listening.
Speaking of cop outs, I think the creation of Israel was a huge cop out by European countries after the second world war. Rather than work to eliminate racism in their countries, to protect people from all backgrounds (as Germany has since tried so hard to do) they sent the problem elsewhere.
Any Israeli listening to me talking about listening would laugh - they are surrounded by countries who are determined to wipe them out. Just as they seem determined to wipe others out. It is a horrible Catch 22.
It is a cop out to take a side in this process. I admire the people on both sides who are working towards reconciliation. That is the only side to take.
Freda:
You are stating a common misconception when these arguments arise. It is true that Israel's neighbors have seeked to wipe her out, including her inhabitants "into the sea". In population and wealth they are more than capable of it. Israel does not seek to wipe our her neighbors, nor is she capable of it (Unless it is indeed true that she is nuclear armed in which case I think it would mean her self-destruction as well).
It is not enough to make the brush broad enough to make it impossible to distinguish between the sides. It is possible, and it should be obvious.
"So it was Sharon who could order 8,000 Israelis out of the Gaza strip in a unilateral withdrawal. As an architect behind the illegal settlements, he had the authority to order the retreat - and send the Israeli army after those who refused. He had become persuaded that the best way to protect Israel was to retreat, and no one could accuse him of cowardice. It is hard to think that, just last Christmas, Israel and Palestine were so close to peace.
Rather than take the chance to live peacefully in the newly evacuated Gaza, Hamas used it as a position to make a raid on a border post and kidnap Gilad Shalit, a 19-year-old soldier. When Lebanese Hezbollah kidnapped another two, his resolve was tested on two fronts. Hence he has launched air strikes on Lebanon, and has sworn to get the hostages back. Without Sharon's reputation, Olmert has to make his own."
Excellent article, IMO, here.
"Israel does not seek to wipe our her neighbors, nor is she capable of it"
That is not at all obvious, Robomatic.
Last Wednesday Hezbollah's border raid captured two Israeli soldiers and left eight more dead last Wednesday. Hezbollah on Saturday launched rockets at Tiberias in the deepest such attack on Israel. Four Israelis were injured.
Israeli raids have killed more than 80 Lebanese. Israeli air-to-ground and gunboat shells hit a bridge on the road from the Beirut to the airport, south of the city centre. Hezbollah's offices in Beirut were destroyed. Hezbollah injured four Israelis in cross-border rocket attacks on Tiberias. Israel has deployed Patriot interceptor missiles in the northern port city of Haifa which was hit by rockets earlier. It also warned Lebanon not to fire on Israeli aircraft.
Israel expanded its bombardment on Saturday, attacking a large number of targets across the country. Warplanes fired rockets on the Lebanon-Syrian border and hit the centre of Beirut for the first time on Saturday.
Eighteen Lebanese civilians, including women and children, were killed on the coastal road to the southern city of Tyre when their vehicles were struck by missiles as they fled a village.
Thousands of foreigners are trying to leave Beirut, leaving its economy in tatters. 22,o00 Australians are in Beirut and can't get out.
The Israeli Army has said any responsibility for endangering the civilian population rested with Hezbollah.
US President George W Bush put the blame squarely on Hezbollah and said Syria should act to curb the group's operations.
back to the fingerpointing.
The Israelis could be killing one helluva lot more people if the slaughter of civilians was their purpose. They have the firepower to do that. I think what is happening is that most folks really do not understand the Israeli mindset to do with this. Understand, they will NOT back down until they have their soldiers returned. I do not see Hezbollah being reined in, and this is about breaking the 'power' of Hezbollah. The brinksmanship is about to start with Iran. And if Iran thinks it's not reachable by the Israelis, they are in for one helluva shock.
There is for the first time in Israel a leadership that is not military. Fact: they do not know where the 'edge' is. I would suggest that by mid week, some neighbouring countries will realize that maybe they should start being scared, because the Israelis are mad as hell and there will be some serious shit-kicking handed out. The loss of life in the coming war will shock people. And I think at the end of the war, even the Israelis will weep for the destruction that has happened. This is a no-win situation.
Hezbollah is going to find out about the extermination they have promised the Israelis. Unfortunately, the people they use as shields will have to find out first.
These fu#kin' heroes of Hezbollah who have said they'd 'take the war into the open': Please do. Get the hell away from civilians and go at it. But, no, that is not the Hezbollah we know, is it? They will let kids stand between them and the Israelis. And they will gladly let those kids get killed.
I agree with Freda' statement, "Speaking of cop outs, I think the creation of Israel was a huge cop out by European countries after the second world war. Rather than work to eliminate racism in their countries, to protect people from all backgrounds (as Germany has since tried so hard to do) they sent the problem elsewhere."
I must add, however, that was then and this is now.
Yes, its difficult not to take sides, especially when one side or the other says or does something that harms the people of the Middle East. I am especially alarmed at the response of Stephen Harper (Canadian MP) and George Bush. Where does he get off telling Syria what to do? Wasn't it Bush who wanted Syria out of Lebanon? Now that Lebanon and Palestine have had democratic elections, Bush has decided he doesn't like the results. When is he going to get it that the U.S. and its allies are unwelcome?
What gives Israel the right to bomb a country for the crimes of a few citizens? It was not the government of Lebanon who kidnapped the Israelis. Terrorists are criminals and do not speak for the citizens of Lebanon or any other country. The only result of Israeli aggression will be the creation of more terrorists.
Yes, Freda, it time for some listening. Unfortunately, the U.S., Great Britain, Canada and Israel cannot hear.
It was reported on the news this morning that the UN has failed to reach an agreement for a ceasefire in the Lebanon.The country's prime minister is desperate for such a ceasefire and has made urgent pleas for the conflict to stop as 104 mainly Lebanese civilians including infants have been killed in the Israeli shelling and bombing.
Lebanese diplomats in New York have blamed the USA for blocking the ceasefire proposals.
Meanwhile Israel continues to wage war against the imfrastructure of the Lebanon attacking ,shops,the port,vehicles,petrol stations,motorway bridges,and even a lighthouse.
If the Israelis wanted to destroy the infrastructure of Lebanon, they would destroy its four power-generating facilities. You do not 'get' it. Until Hezbollah is tossed put on its ass--disarmed--the Israelis will NOT STOP!
"What gives Israel the right to bomb a country for the crimes of a few citizens?"
I don't know that anything necessarily give sthem the 'right'. But, Lebanon has alloed Hexbollah to patro the border. A big mistake. The rocket attacks came from Lebanon. So if you were Israel, who the hell would you attack?
Human Rights Workers [HRWS] in the West Bank village of Beit Unmar have been attacked by Israeli occupation troops using tear gas.
The two workers were eating lunch in the back garden of a village house when tear gas grenades were lobbed at them by Israeli soldiers who wanted them to leave .They were in the village investigating Palestinian complaints about the massive apartheid wall that is now cutting off the village from its hinterland.
Twenty armed soldiers in hummer armoured vehicles then confronted teenagers from the village and fired rubber bullets at them. The Israeli soldiers damaged a taxi and arrested its driver who was released about an hour later.
"Attacks continue
Israel is continuing to pound targets across Lebanon, with no sign that its attacks on Hezbollah and civilian installations are nearing an end.
The latest Israeli air strikes have hit port facilities in Beirut and Lebanon's second biggest city, Tripoli.
There have also been attacks on roads and bridges leading to border crossings with Syria.
The Israeli army says Lebanon's transport facilities are being targeted to prevent Hezbollah importing missiles.
The Israelis say more than 70 rockets have been fired into northern Israel in the past 24 hours.
In a television address earlier, the Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora pleaded for the United Nations to intervene.
"We've worked and we're still working on recovering from the Israeli invasion since 1982, 1993 and 1996, and here comes Israeli sabotage again," he said.
"I declare Lebanon a ravaged country, which needs an Arab international rising plan to fix all that was destroyed by the Israeli aggression."
Mr Siniora repeated his demand for an immediate cease-fire.
Peace process 'dead'
The President of the Arab League has declared the Middle East peace process is "dead" as foreign ministers met in an emergency session in Cairo.
The ministers unanimously condemned the Israeli offensive in Lebanon and called on the United Nations Security Council to intervene.
Israeli Government spokeswoman Miri Eisen says Israel is determined to crush Hezbollah.
"They're targeting the civilians [in Israel] on purpose, they're making the Israelis sit in the bomb shelters," she said.
"We can't let Hezbollah be the ones who define what's going to happen.
"We have to, we are determined to make sure that at the end of this was Hezbollah will not rule the south, will not have our kidnapped soldiers and will not be an armed force inside Lebanon."
In Beirut, many people feel Israel's attacks have undone years of progress after Lebanon's civil war.
But Israelis in the northern town of Nahariya say the military must stop Hezbollah from firing rockets across the border.
"We are behind the Army, we support everything they're doing because there is not another way," one said."
News report on the web.
Tear gas and rubber bullets.
Hezbollah would have used Sarin gas and dumdum bullets.
When Israel invaded and occupied the Lebanon back in 1982 Hezbollah did nOt exist.
It was the invasion, and the devastation it brought ,that created Hezbollah.
The Israelis destroyed Beirut and other cities and occupied southern Lebanon for 18 years .
Eventually the mounting casualties inflicted by Hezbollah drove them back over the border.
It is difficult to imagine but in the 1960 s and 1970s The Lebanon was known as the Switzerland of the Middle East but The Israeli war machine driven by Zionist extremists like Ariel Sharon [the Butcher of Beirut ] put paid to that.
Seventy rockets have been fried from Lebanon into Israel in the past 24 hours. All the targets were civilian.
From: GUEST,Jackson
Only hours after the attack on the Lebanon was launched hundreds of anti war and pro peace demonstrators protested outside the Ministry of Defence in Tel Aviv.
They called for an end to the hostilities and dialogue over the captured Israeli soldiers.
They also called for Euorpean soldiers to be used as a buffer between Israel and the Lebanon and an end to the strangling of the Gaza by the Israeli army.
"Arab foreign ministers, meeting in Cairo, adopted a resolution calling for U.N. Security Council intervention. But moderates led by Saudi Arabia, bickering with Syria and other backers of Hezbollah, denounced the Lebanese guerrilla group's actions in provoking the latest conflict."
But will the US add its voice to theirs?
From: GUEST,Winslow
The brunt of the onslaught focused more and more on Hezbollah's top leadership in south Beirut and the eastern city of Baalbek. Ambulances raced to a Baalbek residential neighborhood where black smoke rose from airstrikes. Israel also targeted the headquarters compound of Hezbollah's leadership in a crowded Shiite neighborhood of south Beirut for the second straight day.
From: GUEST,Brigham
The terrorists of both side must cease fire.
For whatever good it will do, I just e-mailed this to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Israel):
"I am pro Israel. Have been all my life. I understand your response to the recent kidnappings and attacks. But please, in the name of all that is holy, cease fire and allow non combatants to get out of Gaza and Lebanon. World opinion is beginning to see Israel as the terrorist. Please understand, I hate Hezbollah. They are bastards. I think the same of Hamas. I don't want to think the same of Israel. Please allow the people to get out. Cease fire for that length of time. I beg you."
Hope you all have a good evening.
To Peace
Your quip about Hezbollah using sarin gas reminded me that it was an Israeli El Al commercial jet which crashed in Amsterdam in 1992 .The plane was found to be carrying many of the chemical ingredients used to make sarin.Reports claimed enough was on board to make 5oo lbs of the deadly stuff.
We already know thanks to Mordechai Vanunu and other sources that Israel has a large nuclear arsenal but it also has used chemical and toxic weapons against the Palestinian people in Gaza and on the West Bank.
Israel has an enormous military capability, built up with the support of the USA and time and time again it has smashed civilian targets from Beirut which it last destroyed in 1982 to the refugee camp of Jenin which it pulverised four years ago killing some 500Palestinians.
During the past few months it has rained thousands of shells ,missiles and bombs on Gaza.
The Palestinian village of Beit Unmar was the scene of a peaceful protest last week which ended with Israeli soldiers beating,punching,strangling and kicking 2 Palestinian and nine international observers who had gone to try to stop Israeli bulldozers wrecking Palestinian orchards and destroying farmland.
The Israeli intend to grab land from the Palestinians to build a
security wall to protect one of its illegal settlements.
Beit Unmar has a population of 15000 Palestinians and is situated in the illegally occupied West Bank which is under Israeli military occupation.
From: GUEST,Big Al
What makes me despair is that there is any debate over the rights and wrongs of this conflict at all.
IT is CLEAR AS DAY THAT ISRAEL IS MORALLY, POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY WRONG.
Its creation, it's continued existence, its US support, its nuclear arsenal, it's oppression of the Palestinians…
EVERYTHING ABOUT IT IS WRONG.
Unless, of course, you are a Zionist and only care about your own selfish interests that is.
Israeli shelling on Gaza have killed a 75 year old woman and wounded 10 others including a baby.
"Israel has an enormous military capability, built up with the support of the USA"
And if it did not have this capability it would no longer exist.
From: GUEST,Jon
MASSACCRE AT TANTURA!
On the 15th May 1948 around 200 Palestinian villagers from Tantura near Haifa were massacred by Israeli fighting forces.
The men were shot in batches of ten.The few survivors were expelled from the country and made their way to refugee camps where they were eventually able to give oral testimony to the massacre at Tantura.
The Palestinian village was erased with all its houses demolished except for one at the edge of the village.The village is now a parking lot.
When Bobad in the above posting justifies the arming of Israel by the USA we can all think back to the terrible slaughters across the
land that were needed to get rid of the Palestinians from their homes and land.And the slaughter continues with over a hundred Lebanese civilians bombed and incinerated by American built warplanes in the past few days.
From: GUEST,Rondi Adamson
"I don't know of one democratic country in the world, one, that would accept and do nothing when 1,000 missiles are shot at innocent civilians at the heart of the country. Some of those who preach to us would have done a lot more in a more brutal, vicious and cruel way." These were the words of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert early last week. I think Olmert is wrong in part. All who preach to Israel would have responded more viciously, brutally and cruelly.
I don't see how Israel could be accused of carrying out a "disproportionate act of war," as a French politician said last Thursday. I don't see how Israel is overreacting, given the aforementioned — and given the June kidnapping of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, the kidnap and execution of a settler on the West Bank, the kidnapping of two more Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah.
Throw in, too, the rockets that have continued to come out of Gaza since Israel withdrew last summer. By withdrawing from Gaza, Israel was reversing a mistake.
I would like to see any Palestinian leader admit and reverse any mistake, even a tiny one, or even understand the concept. Israel left behind greenhouses, which had been worth $100 million a year in exports. Rather than build on that, Palestinians looted and destroyed them and continued firing rockets, without provocation, onto nearby Israeli villages. Israel has also withdrawn completely from Lebanon in the past six years. This has not stopped Hezbollah from shelling Israel sporadically over the years and from attacking Israel again last week.
Neither of these aggressions against Israel, therefore, can rightly be called territorial disputes. Unless we are discussing the fact that Hezbollah and Hamas consider Israel, itself, territory that should be free of Jews.
The Lebanese government has not taken care of Hezbollah. So it falls to Israel, which will take criticism for doing someone else's job. Hamas's military arm must be dismantled as well for the sake of Israel and the Palestinians, and any hope of a future for them.
The international community should worry less about Israel showing restraint when it is persistently under attack, and more about Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria and Iran.
Hezbollah, with its links to those countries, must be dismantled as a military force. Not only for the sake of Israel, but for the sake of the Lebanese people, the entire region, and the rest of us.
At the same time Iran was supposed to respond to an incentive package to give up its nuclear program, Hezbollah attacked Israel. Coincidence? I think not. Hezbollah is part of the larger game.
Mumbai, New York, Bali, London, Haifa. These are also all part of the same larger game, the global war on terror. If we accuse Israel of not being sufficiently "restrained" for responding as it has, what exactly will we do when our turn comes?
http://www.upstartactivist.com/downloads/IsraelandPalestine.pdf
"The Jews started the first war with the Arabs."
The chairman of the Arab Higher Committee said the Arabs would "fight for every inch of their country."1 Two days later, the holy men of Al-Azhar University in Cairo called on the Muslim world to proclaim a jihad (holy war) against the Jews.2 Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood . . . ."3
Husseini's prediction began to come true almost immediately after the UN announced partition resolution on November 29, 1947. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. Violence continued to escalate through the end of the year.4
The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approximately 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine. By February, the British said so many Arabs had infiltrated they lacked the forces to run them back.5 In fact, the British turned over bases and arms to Arab irregulars and the Arab Legion.
In the first phase of the war, lasting from November 29, 1947 until April 1, 1948, the Palestinian Arabs took the offensive, with help from volunteers from neighboring countries. The Jews suffered severe casualties and passage along most of their major roadways was disrupted.
On April 26, 1948, Transjordan's King Abdullah said:
[A]ll our efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem have failed. The only way left for us is war. I will have the pleasure and honor to save Palestine.6
On May 4, 1948, the Arab Legion attacked Kfar Etzion. The defenders drove them back, but the Legion returned a week later. After two days, the ill-equipped and outnumbered settlers were overwhelmed. Many defenders were massacred after they had surrendered.7 This was prior to the invasion by the regular Arab armies that followed Israel's declaration of independence.
The UN blamed the Arabs for the violence. The UN Palestine Commission was never permitted by the Arabs or British to go to Palestine to implement the resolution. On February 16, 1948, the Commission reported to the Security Council:
Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.8
The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948:
The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.9
The British commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb admitted:
Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman . . . They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine.
"1000 missiles shot at the heart of the country"
Isn't that what Pres George Bush ordered in operation "Shock and Awe"when the American attack on Iraq got underway three years ago.
Perhaps it wasnt 1000 missiles ...I think it was many thousands of cruise missiles,big bombs and other weapons.....the killing he unleashed then is still going on strong ...and hasnt stopped.
Millions marched for peace then ...but the warguys got their way and to hear Bush support Israel ,and in effect allow it to carry on with its bombing of civilian targets in Lebanon...turning it into a freefire zone is grotesque... but entirely predictable.
When I was studying international relations, a few eons ago, one of my professors had a theory about trouble spots in the world. He called them "shatterbelt zones- don't know if the term was original with him. As I recall, he defined them as areas in which 2 different groups of people claimed exactly the same territory. There were other criteria, which I can't recall. He looked at the problem as basically intractable.
But in his designation of such "zones" he included South Africa. So he appears to have been wrong in seeing all of such "zones" as unsolvable problems.
This indicates there is in fact hope--still.
I suppose the main difference between the 2 problems is that in the Mideast, not only are the 2 groups claiming exactly the same territory, but there's another factor not found in South Africa. States outside the actual area are using the belligerents--on both sides-- as their proxies. It's not a question of "puppetmasters"--they certainly don't have complete control--but the states outside seem to be able to stoke the conflict when it suits them--or at least take advantage of the situation--and obstruct efforts to solve it.
In the case of South Africa, many states outside seem to have been in favor of a peaceful accomodation.
So it appears that in order to solve the Mideast situation, the states outside have to be--all--convinced that there's no incentive to encourage the conflict, that their self-interest lies in peace.
Rondi Adamson, Zionist said above:
"The Lebanese government has not taken care of Hezbollah. So it falls to Israel, which will take criticism for doing someone else's job. Hamas's military arm must be dismantled as well for the sake of Israel and the Palestinians, and any hope of a future for them."
The ONLY way to 'take care of Hezbollah" and "disarm Hamas" is to disarm the sycopathic 'nation' which has nuclear missiles called Israel.
Israel reminds me of a stupid, brain dead fat kid in my old school who used to beat up the weedy kids but then burst into tears and run to the teacher when one of them kicked back. Except in Israels case, the teacher (America) just gives him a knife to go an stab the weedy kid. Then the stupid brain dead fat kid justifies stabbing the weedy kid to death beacuse he has dangerous feet!
From: GUEST,Big Sal
Big Al has it 'almost' there. Israel was the new skinny kid in school, who bulked up when four big fat kids went after him his first day on the playground. The big fat kids were also cowards with a couple of rich parents. they now pay the poor kids lunch money to kick the new kid in the shins, then whent the new kid defends himself they cry foul and throw rocks.
so, as usual, the 'listmakers' have grabbed the thread, as if listing the latest bombs, missles and casualties proves their point.
Fraid so Bill, they belong to the, don't confuse me with facts my mind is made up, syndrome
REPLY TO BILL AND DAVE
What a smug pair of Zionists Bill and Dave are!
For years the Zionists have bullied ,browbeaten and humiliated the Palestinians .
Israel has illegally occupied the West Bank since 1967.It has illegally imprisoned thousands of Palestinians from the West Bank since that time and grabbed huge swathes of fertile land from them.Is that "listmaking" as you so arrogantly and condescendingly put it?
If the resistance in the 2nd World War were to make a list of Nazi atrocities would that be listmaking.I think not."Grabbing the thread indeed "! What tosh!
You Zionists are having to face criticism on Mudcat and you don't like it!!
No Walt merely presenting facts rather than fiction. I just know the history a little better than you do. Apparently when facts are presented it is commonplace to accuse the person presenting them as being biased, bigotted,racist etc... Sorry mate i'm just a simple worker with no axe to grind for either side. I also have worked towards helping the peace process in the middle east, no armchair warrior i have served in the front line so fuck off and have a nice day.
The news has just come in that Israeli warplanes have attacked houses in South Lebanon killing 25 and wounding 33 civilians including several children.
Israel has warned that it intends using the Lebanon as free fire zone ,a tactic used by the USA in Vietnam.
This tactic will come as no surprise and the plans have only had to be taken down off the shelf in the war room and given an update and a dusting down.Whatever the Zionist leaders claim they can do ....they overdo! In this case it is to commit state terror and mass murder.
'"Israel has an enormous military capability, built up with the support of the USA"
And if it did not have this capability it would no longer exist.'
Well said, Bobad.
Dave (the ancient mariner): He has more right than most to remark on the situation. He's a guy who's 'been there and done that' with regard to helping refugees, DPs, and people living on the edge of starvation.
mercy, mercy! Zionist? I've been called a lot of things, but that's a first.
Dave & I share the honor of have no ax to grind in this mess...except the one that says it ALL wrong. 'Walt' proves my point by using the "anyone who doesn't agree with MY prejudices is a ********....*argument.
Sorry, 'Walt', there ARE no good guys in this one.
Hear, hear, Bill.
And to get to the stage of a regional heavyweight bully always ready and willing to grab more land from the Palestinians and conduct all out war with its neighbours it has needed American military,economic and diplomatic support.
Without that support Israel would have had to have reached a genuine and just settlement with the Palestinians and Lebanese many years ago.
Please spare the justifications for Dave 's [the ancient mariner ] support for Zionist Israel.
Try listening to the International Solidarity Movement witnesses who have been trying to prevent the Zionist land grab .Many of these brave people are Jewish but they are all appalled by the savage humiliation and murder of Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli occupation forces.
Try listening to Gilad Atzman , a renowned jazz musician and former soldier in the Israeli army who is disgusted at what the Israeli army has done.Better still listen to the Palestinian people and experience their ongoing suffering.
Please take your hatred elsewhere.
I hear fron those who are speaking on behalf of Palestinians that they are angry that Israel is doing this. Listen up: so am I. However, I would give more consideration to your remarks had I ever seen or heard you talk against the shit known as Hezbollah and Hamas. Forget your revisionist histrionics--I see you being led by an ideology that does not care when Israeli kids are killed by the shite you support. Until such time as you demonstrate soemthing akin to a humane feeling for all people in the mid-East, I wish you would fuck off.
The trouble with you Zionist supporters is that you have wanted the Palestinian people...the indiginous people of Palestine... to f*** off as you so inelequently put it for the past 100 years and they have refused to be beaten off their land or their page of history.
The Palestinians and Hamas are fighting back with what they have....which is no military match for the missiles,super bombs and heavy tanks and artillery routinely used by the Israelis.
As previously stated elsewhere Hezbollah was practically invented by Israel's war machine....it grew from nothing in response to an 18 year old invasion of Lebanon by the Israeli military with all the horrors that invasion brought into being.
Again Hamas came about with some subtle Israeli encouragement .The Israeli were keen to break the unity of the Palestinine Liberation Organisation and thought it could encourage an islamic group to drain away support from the PLO.
The result is ,a decade later, is a militant Palestinian govt which is not prepared to kowtow before the armed might of Israel.
Keep your crocodile tears for yourself!Palestinian kids have been routinely brutalised by both the Israeli army and Zionist paramilitary colonialists for decades. They have ben brought up with beatings ,rubber bullets,tear gas and imprisonment.Many have been killed or horribly maimed.
For years there has been a growing world wide movement in suport of Palestine ...it has been calling for peace and social justice and the return of Palestinian refugees to their homeland....the Zionists have jeered at them...they wont even acknowledge the name "Palestine "let alone accept that the Palestinians have a just case.If that were to happen the refugees would have to return home and the Zionist myth would be blown apart.
The trouble with you Hezbollah supporters is that you don't really care about civilians or Palestinian or Lebanese kids. You care about your multi-posts to this thread under various GUEST aliases and your vitriol, a barely disguised hatred of Jews. You care about your ideologies and not the people involved. FOAD yourselves.
Hezbollah is a resistance movement of shia muslim Lebanese.They can and do speak for themselves.
However,ther are now millions across the world who support the cause of a Free Palestine .
Among the ranks of the supporters of a Free Palestine are many,many Jewish people-both radical secularist and religious. You know that and if you dont you should reconsider whether Mudcat is the place for you to air your bigotry =the local bar would seem more appropriate somehow.
Take a look at who is supporting Israel's attack on the Gaza and the Lebanon...George Bush and his Texan oil cronies,the evangelical christians, rightwingers all, the arms dealers who have done so well dealing in death and misery,Tony Blair who has become a reviled figure in Britain and the neo cons in the Washington High Command who want to fight the Long War with every drop of some other mother's son.
By your friends ye shall be known!!!
Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that targets Israel. Yes, by your friends ye shall be known.
And speaking of your heroes from Hezbollah, Hamas and no doubt the Iranian 'specialists' who are in to help: All they have to do to stop the killing of civilians is to get away from those civilians. They made the challenge to Israel days ago; the challenge to bring the war into the open. The ball is in Their court now, not the Israelis'.
The International Solidarity Movement which works in the occupied West Bank to protect Palestinian human rights has reported that two of its human rights workers and several Palestinian children have been attacked by Zionist settlers in the Palestinian city of Hebron.
The victims were punched and hit with rocks and spat at before the incident ended and medical attention was given.
Apparently , the International workers were attacked after reporting an earlier attack on Palestinian children.
Hezbollah Rocket Barrage Kills 8 in Haifa
Lebanese Guerillas Fire Rocket Barrage Into Israeli City of Haifa, Killing 8 As Conflict Rages
By JOSEF FEDERMAN
HAIFA, Israel Jul 16, 2006 (AP)— Lebanese guerillas fired a relentless barrage of rockets into this northern Israeli city during morning rush hour Sunday, killing eight people at a train station and wounding seven in a dramatic escalation of a five-day-old conflict that has shattered hopes for Mideast peace.
From: GUEST,Oslo
'The Israeli attack came after a rocket slammed into the northern port city of Haifa on Thursday evening. Earlier, two Israelis were killed and another 120 were wounded when scores of Katyusha rockets fired by Hezbollah guerillas rained down across northern Israel.'
"2 More Israelis Are Killed as Rain of Rockets From Lebanon Pushes Thousands South
By GREG MYRE
Rockets rained down on northern Israel for a third straight day, killing a woman and her 5-year-old grandson."
"I only have one eye. Do you want me to look at the speedometer or the road?"
Good article from the Timesonline.
Home>>World News
World NewsVIOLENCE IN MIDDLE EAST
Israeli PM warns Lebanon of "far-reaching consequences"
"The crisis was sparked last Wednesday when Hizbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid and killed eight soldiers in ensuing clashes. Since then, Israeli war planes have pounded targets across its northern neighbour, including the headquarters of Hizbollah in an attempt to hit at its leader, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah. Hizbollah, a Shi'ite guerrilla group that has virtually carved out a separate state in southern Lebanon, is believed to have about 10,000 to 12,000 rockets in its arsenal, with a range of between 30 km and 70 km."
From the www
"Then Hezbollah killed eight Israeli soldiers and captured two in northern Israel. There appeared to be far fewer complications than in Gaza. This was aggression across a UN-drawn international border by a well-equipped state-within-a-state supported by Iran and Syria. Even more, the UN Security Council had demanded two years ago that Hezbollah be dismantled and replaced on the border by the Lebanese Army."
Peace - It would seem that demands by the U.N. Security Council were made before Hezbollah won 18% of the seats in Parliament. Hezbollah is part of the democratically elected, Lebanese government. (Wiki)
Since GWB forced Syria out of Lebanon, how can the U.N. propose that the Lebanese dimantle and replace Hezbollah? I doubt if they have the power to do that even if they have the will (which they don't).
Btw - Both Iran and Syria have said that although they support Hezbollah, they do not supply arms to Hezbollah.
Both Hamas and Hezbollah were chosen by the people in a free election.
"And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is..."
Peace - It would seem that demands by the U.N. Security Council were made before Hezbollah won 18% of the seats in Parliament.
Yep, you're right about that, D'van. But before that they had over a year and a half and still didn't get it done.
Also, in the last line, it's somewhat of a relief to see that Armageddon doesn't scan. If I ever meet 'C' J M again I will mention that.
My guess is that the reason the Lebanese did not replace Hezbollah with Lebanese soldiers is either they didn't have the capability or perhaps they didn't have the will. Don't forget, Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government and is very popular with the people. What are they supposed to do, go against the will of the people? Even if they did, would they be capable of doing that? I somehow doubt it.
Lets not forget that most Muslims in Lebanon see Hezbollah as their only protection against U.S. and Israeli aggression. If they didn't have Hezbollah and if the Palestinians didn't have Hamas, who would protect the people? Who would stop the aggression? If I were in their shoes, my attitude would be, better the devil you know than the devil you don't.
Maybe so, D, but the recent Hezbollah attack has had terrible results. I think they pulled the tiger's tail once too often.
However, please understand that I did send that e-mail to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and I will post the reply if I get one. I take no satisfaction at all in kids/civilians from any country or place being killed by anyone's guns, explosives, planes, tanks or rockets.
It would not bother me one iota if every terrorist member of Hezbollah and Hamas were killed right this instant. However, it bothers me greatly that kids are being killed in this bloody war--kids from Israel, Palestine (such as it is), Lebanon, and possibly soon Syria.
PS: I too don't think the Lebanese government COULD have forced Hezbollah off the border. It likely would have split the Lebanese troops sent to do it.
The "Palestinian" supporters are in a self contradictory position. If the Israelis were really as powerful as these pro-terrorists maintain, they could march across borders and institute a pax Israelia". Since they haven't, they are motivated either by the will of Allah, or they are really not that powerful, and are well aware of it. Yet the assuredly wretched and weak Pally's or their surrogates, the terrorist quasi governmental organizations Hamas and Hezbollah are able to penetrate Israeli borders and now send rockets into Israeli cities. So maybe there's a reason for all this Israeli armament, and maybe they need all this armament because they are defenders and typically they don't choose to attack, they must be prepared to defend. If they have the kind of weaponry that everyone claims, why are there not tens of thousands of Arabs being killed? Either they don't have these kinds of weapons, or they are limiting their response.
The Pallys don't need a lot of weapons, they use everything they've got while they've got it, including their bodies. And they are then well recompensed by the Saudis. And get weapons from the Syrians and Iranians and those who can smuggle 'em in.
The Israelis have the materiel to kill tens of thousands of civilians if that was the intent of the IDF. It isn't their intent. If Hezbollah put down its weapons now, the war would be finished within the time it took to stand down the Israeli forces. The Israelis would stop. But the Israelis will NOT stop as long as they have Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel.
Elliot Bruce has written an important article on the International Solidarity Movement's website showing how Israeli policy is strangling Palestinian life in the Jordan valley.
Palestinian farmers are being squeezed out. They are being separated from their markets, they are being denied water from the river Jordan and Israeli bulldozers trash their fields and orchards.The eastern side of the new apartheid wall is going to surround many of th communities chopping them into little bantustan zones.
If the farmers go to court to try to get justice they have to spend tens of thousands of dollars in order to be lucky enough to win a few thousand dollars compensation.
The Jordan valley is NOT Israeli territory it is illegally occupied and dozens of Zionist farms and settlements are being built there to create "facts on the ground"
Such is the reality ofthe occupation of Palestine by Israel.
as usual, I am concerned with reasoned argument, even as I am concerned with the rights and suffering of ALL people.
No, I don't think you are, Bill. I don't think your arguments are reasoned at all. You keep saying that people are just making lists of grievances. That is not at all what we are doing. What we are doing is working to help people see why Israel must end the occupation. NOW.
What I see (on both sides of the issue, not just yours, Carol) is a "choosing of sides", then arguments constructed to justify almost anything done by the chosen side. Definitions are streched, comparisons made, questions are mis-represented, unwarrented assumptions are built into statements and conclusions drawn that are ONLY valid IF one accepts those presuppositions, definitions and comparisons.
I can only assume that since you are directing this toward me, you are saying that I have been doing these things. This is not reasoned argument. This is an ad hominem attack. If you want to engage in reasoned argument, you will take everything that I say that you want to dispute, and you will provide your counter arguments and supporting documentation. What you are doing is flinging poo. Poo that you are trying to pass off as reasoned arguments.
Nor do I appreciate having my statement twisted to say that I CALLED your position 'propaganda'. I was referring to the verbal similarities.
I don't see any difference at all between calling what I have said propaganda and comparing what I have said with what you consider to be propaganda. In fact, there is no difference.
I KNOW that the conditions that most Palestinians are forced to live in is unfair and demeaning and does not offer them reasonable opportunities to live meaningful lives....this hurts and saddens me.
Clearly you have no idea of what the conditions are like for the Palestinians or you wouldn't have described their situation in this way.
Neither do I think that Hamas and Hezbolah have reasonable approaches to address those inequities.
Maybe not, but they're the only ones who are fighting for the Palestinians' freedom. Everybody else... including you, are saying that the Palestinians should just suck it all up and not do anything at all to defend themselves.
This PROVES that you know nothing at all about their situation. And if you don't see the Palestinians as having any rights to live anywhere at all (which you have just indicated you do not), or any rights to have any rights, than you have removed any doubt from my mind about whether or not you are a racist.
If your view of the Palestinians weren't so colored by your racisim, you would know that there already are Palestinians who have tried that approach. And it has accomplished absolutely nothing. Why are the Palestinians the ONLY people on earth who are not allowed to defend themselves? And if non-violent approaches are the only valid ones, why didn't we just let Gandhi go and stop Hitler from killing Jews?
This is a lie, Bill. Israel's survival is in no way dependent upon keeping the Palestinians in the West Bank, and East Jerusalem in bondage. Or the Palestinians in Gaza in permanent lockdown.
Well, unlike you, I'm AM NOT arguing that the creation of Israel may have been a mistake. I am arguing that the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the Israeli stranglehold on Gaza needs to STOP.
END THE OCCUPATION AND LEAVE THE PALESTINIANS THE FUCK ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hamas, Hezbolah and several countries have stated policies that the situation will not be 'right' until Israel ceases to exist. Therefore, they state that they WILL continue attacks, no matter whether Israel 'withdraws', sits tight or expands. Now, whether they or you) like it or not, Israel IS a country, recognized by the UN, no matter how they got there...and AS a country, one should not be surprised to see them make the case for defending themselves against attack.
If, as you say, the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah will continue even if Israel withdraws, then Israel must withdraw for the simple reason that the occupation is morally reprehensible.
However, you are wrong if you think that withdrawing will not result in a dramatic reduction in violence against Israel. The majority of Palestinians will not allow a minority of extremists to kill their dream of having their own independent nation. They won't be able to guarantee that there will never be any more violence against Israelis, but Israel will be more secure than it has ever been when it ends the occupation. And then Israelis will also have the luxury of not being in the same category of hideousness as all of the other people who slaughter innocent civilians and commit ethnic cleansing.
If you simply, in all cases, define their defense as agression, there is nowhere to go but where it is going....
No, there is somewhere things can go. Israel can END THE OCCUPATION. Why are you not calling for Israel to do that? Because you don't see the Palestinians as human beings, Bill. It's that simple.
I do NOT see Israel saying "sure...we'll just disband as a country"
I am not now, and I NEVER HAVE ARGUED THAT ISRAEL SHOULD DISBAND AS A COUNTRY.
For you to suggest that that is what I have been arguing for is the most blatant of slanders. What I have been arguing for consistantly from the very beginnning is nothing more than for Israel to (I'm putting it in red letters so you can see it this time... you seem to have missed it all of the eleven million times I've said it)
I SUPPORT ISRAEL'S EXISTANCE
WHAT I AM ARGUING FOR IS FOR ISRAEL TO
Try paying attention for once, ok, BILL?!?
Carol you are the Hanan Ashrawi for the rest of us ;-)
NATIONAL EMERGENCY MARCH ON
WASHINGTON TO DEFEND THE PEOPLE OF
PAESTINE AND THE LEBANON
12 NOON AT THE WHITE HOUSE
STOP US AID TO ISRAEL
SUPPORT THE RIGHT OF RETURN FOR PALESTINIANS
NO TO WAR AND OCCUPATION
The march and demonsration is being supported by a wide range of anti war and Palestinian support groups.
COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT AND MASS TERROR
Refugees fleeing the Lebanon claim that Israel is indiscriminately bombing civilian targets.One said that he had seen two hospital bombed and the BBC reported today that huge bombs had flattened three apartment blocks in Beirut.
Large fires are raging in Beirut and its port has also been attacked along with power plants,oil depots,houses ,petrol stations ,bridges and motorway flyovers.Hundreds of Lebanese civilians have been reported killed or wounded in the bombing.
The attack on the Lebanon has been marked by this attack on civilians and non military targets. The situation is worsening and some 400000 people are now displaced refugees .Many are sheltering in schools but there is hardly any fuel or electricity. Ambulances have to try to go on missions along roads which are being bombed and strafed and many bridges are destroyed.
Israel's revenge on the people of the Lebanon is taking the form of mass killing,collective punishment and the destruction of the civilian infrastructure.This is a form of state terror with one third of the population of the Lebanon being children. They are being bombed ,strafed and terrorised by one of the technologically advanced armies in the world.
This is hard to do....I am startled by your reply. I tried to say I am upset by BOTH sides actions in this turmoil, but you see only that I am upset by your side's actions. That does NOT equate to defending Israel.
"If you want to engage in reasoned argument, you will take everything that I say that you want to dispute, and you will provide your counter arguments and supporting documentation."
This is precisely the sort of 'list making' I reject. I could never prove a point using this technique, as you would simply provide your lists. I don't know how to respond to arguments which have a great deal of the "When are you going to stop beating your wife?" built into them.
" I can only assume that since you are directing this toward me, you are saying that I have been doing these things. This is not reasoned argument. This is an ad hominem attack. "
..no, I'm sorry...it is not. I explained why I saw certain tendencies in the formyour arguments--I did NOT resort to simply calling you names and denigrating your character to make my point. You seem to have not understood exactly what ad hominem means.
THIS is ad hominem...
"... than you have removed any doubt from my mind about whether or not you are a racist."
"... you don't see the Palestinians as human beings, Bill. It's that simple."
I realize how deeply you hold your views, Carol...but NOTHING I have said above, nor anything I have done in my life deserves that sort of response.
I am sad, hurt, and working hard to avoid simply being offended. I will try to chalk it up to your intense concern.....but I won't debate it with you any more. We have gotten to a point where we can't talk about the same things.
sadly, I am slow to realize that I should just stay away from some issues, as I cannot deal well with the "you are either for us or against us" attitude.
.....(I will NOT reply to further accusations or admonitions in this thread...if that sounds like cowardice or something, so be it...)
Dianavan,
Your statment concerning Iran and the Hezbollah rockets is false.
http://www.meib.org/articles/0211_l2.htm
http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=1311
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29728
http://www.aijac.org.au/updates/Dec-05/081205.html
"Finally, another strategic expert, this time from the US, Patrick Devenny, looks at the extent of the military and strategic threat posed to Israel by Hezbollah. Devenny particularly highlights the role of the 10,000+ missiles, mostly from Iranian army stocks, which Hezbollah is pointing at Israel. Devenny finds the threat of these missiles quite serious and also a barrier to efforts to deter Iran's nuclear program, and therefore urges an international to remove them."
correction:
"Btw - Both Iran and Syria have said that although they support Hezbollah, they do not supply arms to Hezbollah."
Both Syria and Iran are lying. I cannot hold you responsible for their lies, though your acceptance of them without even looking for any contrary facts does not indicate an interest in finding out the truth.
"And by the way, if you (and Israel) insist that killing civilians is justified if a military target is what is being aimed for, then by the same logic, all of Israel's civilian areas are military targets, because members of the IDF (and the proto-Israeli terrorist organizations prior to Israeli statehood) have been cleverly (and insideously) hiding themselves amongst the Israeli civilian population since before Israel declared itself a nation. "
Than you feel that, since the side YOU support DOES hide itself amidst the civilian population, that Israel is JUSTIFIED in killing civilians????? If not, than the Palestinians are wrong in attacking pizza parlors and birthday parties.
"You are, again, placing a much higher value on the lives of Jewish Israelis than on people who are not Jewish Israelis. This is, by the way, racism. "
No, Hamas and Hezbollah are placing that value- re the demands for hundreds to be released for one or two kidnaped Israelis. YOU are supporting the racists, not I.
Hezbollah must release soldiers, withdraw to get ceasefire: Israel
Published: Monday, July 17, 2006
JERUSALEM -- Israel would agree to a ceasefire in its six-day-old offensive against Lebanon if Hezbollah guerrillas agreed to withdraw from border area and release two captured Israeli soldiers, a senior official said Monday.
The official, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had conveyed Israel's position to Italy's prime minister, who is attempting to broker a ceasefire deal.
Israel had previously demanded the full dismantling of Hezbollah as a condition for ending hostilities.
However, the senior official said Israel would agree to Hezbollah merely leaving the border area - with the Lebanese army taking its place.
Bill, your accusations against me, when you clearly are not responding to my arguments, but rather to arguments you have invented in your mind and are projecting on to me, hurt my feelings long before I posted my response to you.
Try practicing what you preach for a change.
From: number 6
This thread reflects the tensions going on over in the middle east (and the tensions, and anger found throughout the world) ... to have peace it must be found within ourselves .... but we are merely humans ... and to me that is not even an excuse.
But .. scoff it off and continue on your angry rants of who is right and who is wrong. It doesn't really matter what you say, it is who you are.
When you say that, robomatic, my hope is that what you mean is this...
"(She) shattered a number of Western stereotypes about Palestinians"
(context here)
Dave (the ancient mariner) is no more qualified to speak on this subject than any of the rest of us. When he presents his "facts" he is getting them from online sources just like the rest of us. His historical "facts" in his 6 Jul 06 - 10:40 AM post come from this website...
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/
But the FACT is that almost all of the fighting leading up to and during Israel's War of Independence, occurrred on land that had been allocated to the "Arabs" by the UN, and from which Israel was in the process of ethnically cleansing all "Arabs".
Also during this time, Israel (through Golda Mier) had struck up an arrangement with the King of Jordan to divvy up the land that had been allocated to the Palestinians and although the King of Jordan did not openly admit to making and adhering to this agreement, he did, nevertheless adhere to it almost to the letter. With the exception of a few parts of old Jerusalem, his forces confined themselves almost entirely to the areas that his agreement with Israel allowed him to take.
Having said that, it goes without saying that Jordan's king was no more entitled to divvy up the Palestinians' land with Israel than Israel was entitled to take land that was given to the Palestinians by the UN.
And Dave is most assuredly not neutral on this subject. He supports continued ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.
CarolC you have gone too far this time. I do not nor have I ever supported any such thing. Your post is nasty, childish and very untrue. Your vehement childishness proves you have no regard for fact or real knowledge of the history of the present conflict. It is because you act in such manner you are not worthy of debating with on any subject. The sites I post information are from the web, and as such the only source of information readily available for those who actually want to read about the conflict. Oviously you hate being presented with facts that refute some of your ideas but your manner of argument indicates a rabid personality with obvious mental problems. Tough shit lady
SHALL WE DESTROY OR SHALL WE BUILD?
The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions today posted on its website information about its 4th annual workcampin the Palestinian town of Anata on the West Bank.
Around 30 International volunteers ,Israelis and Palestinians have been working to build a home for the Hamden family.This Palestinian family consists of an elderly couple together with their son,his wife and their four children.Their family home was demolished by Israeli occupation forces in 2004.
Today was spent clearing the site and putting in concrete foundations which was difficult as plastic bullets were being fired by the occupation forces nearby.
Since 1967 12000 Palestinian homes in the illegally occupied West Bank have been demolished by the Israel armed occupying forces.
What is encouraging about the work of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions is that it shows that both Israelis and Palestinians can work together to oppose injustice and brutality.
Residents in the Rafah and Beit Hanoun area of Gaza are now existing under the direct rule of Israeli occupying troops.Today at least three residents have been killed and eleven injured including two journalists and two paramedics .There has been a forced exodus of the population into other parts of Gaza but some 30 000 are suffering from the attacking Israeli army.
Houses are being bulldozered,detention centres set up in houses and civilians are being used as shields.Dozens have suffered from glass shrapnel An ambulance has been shot up and its crew wounded.
EMERGENCY DEMONSTRATION
GAZA AND THE LEBANON
ASSEMBLE 12 NOON THE EMBANKMENT, LONDON
SATURDAY 22 ND JULY
The demonstrators will be demanding an end to the savage attack on Gaza and the Lebanon
I meant you were a strong contender for your viewpoint, as is Hanan Ashrawi an excellent representative for hers.
Guest, Hugo:
As Abba Eban observed regarding Israelis and Arabs living in peace, it is possible once all other avenues have been tried. It should be observed that house demolition is practised by Palestinian authorities as well on those whom they disfavor. Extrajudicial torture and murder of Palestinians accused of cooperating with Israelis has also been practised (by Palestinians).
A HARD RAIM IS GONNA FALL
Israeli's attack on the Lebanon is codenamed "Summer Rain ".It should have been called Hard Rain.The capture of two soldiers in the north and one in Gaza has been the excuse for the Israeli High Command to unleash death and destruction on an industrial scale mainly against the civilian population of the Lebanon and Gaza.
Apartment blocks,houses ,hospitals and offices have been hit.Bridges,cars,ambulances and power plants have been blown up in an act,an illegal act, of collective punishment.
The slaughter in both Gaza and the Lebanon has been indiscriminate.
It has never been about the capture of the three soldiers.They could have been freed by now along with hundreds ofPalestinian women and children who have been illegally detained by Israel in appalling conditions.One Lebanese man was arrested in 1979 as a 16 year old!
Tens of thousands of Lebanese were killed by the Israeli war machine during the last invasion and destruction of the Lebanon.But the result was the formation of Hezbollah which eventually drove Israel out of the south of the country which it had occupied for 18years.
The result of this bout of mayhem and state murder will also have far reaching consequences that Israel is unlikely to welcome.
The Zionist extremists who are in power in Israel have always wanted a Greater Israel .To achieve it they will have to wade through a river of blood.
Israel has said they would call a halt to the Lebanon front if the soldiers are returned and Hezbollah withdraws from the border and is replaced by Lebanese army regulars. Please send e-mails to Hezbollah and tell THEM about it, OK, Walt? You'll do some good there. And I'm sure they will listen to you.
The rockets used against Israel are fired from trucks who purposely do it from the shelter of Mosques, Hospitals, Appartment buildings and schools. When the plot indicates a target the Israelis fire back or do an air attack and of course the truck is gone and the casualties are classed as non combatants. Rather like the RPG's and snipers, who surround themselves with women and children in the hope the israelis will not shoot back, or that when they do the collateral damage can then be used against them in the international press.
"In 1989 the Lebanese parliament accepted an Arab-brokered peace accord for national reconciliation, and Syria assisted Lebanon's national army to control the country's various factions. The activities of Hezbollah, which Syria had used as a proxy in its efforts to combat Israel, were momentarily put in check, but the group had built cultural and political institutions that would insure its survival into the post-civil war era."
Two American citizens were savagely assaulted by Israeli security officers at the main crossing point from Jordan in to Israel _the Allenby Bridge.
Tina Hannounah a 47 year old American banker of Palestinian origin was badly beaten along with her 17 year old son ,Michael who suffers from chronic heart problems.They were in the country to visit family.
Michael was grabbed at the checkpoint by a security officer who shouted at him in arabic_a language he does not speak.Apparently the officer was after Michael's new ipod.
The officer then savagely beat Tina [her face can be viewed on the Palestine News Network ].
There have been at least 100 similar incidents reported at checkpoints during the past year.Only 10 official replies have been offered.This sort of harassment and beating and humiliation is the regular fare for the Palestinian people who are treated in a callous way by Israeli security and occupation forces.
Where's Walt?
More vitriol from Dave, I see.
CarolC you have gone too far this time. I do not nor have I ever supported any such thing.
Do you support the expansion of settlements in the West Bank, Dave?
Do you condemn the government of Israel for depriving the Palestinians in the West Bank of most of their water resources (forcing them to survive on a mere fraction of the water that is considered necessary for normal living, like, for instance, for washing, bathing, and watering their crops - while Israeli settlers in the West Bank use the Palestinians' precious water to water their lawns and fill their swimming pools)? Do you condemn that practice, Dave?
No CarolC I do not support expansion or settlements in the West Bank it is an illegal act to begin with. I condem the Palestinians for not spending time effort and money into solving the water supply problem themselves, since Israel has provided them with water despite the fact they wish to destroy Israel. Perhaps if Hamas were to spend a fraction of the money in foreign aid on farming and desalination plants instead of missiles and weapons it might help? I am sure if the Israelis withdrew fron the Golan heights water would be diverted away from them; and they would not only be dehydrated but be bombarded by more missiles into the bargain. Tough call isn't it?
The only vitriol is produced by you CarolC, and I am not interested in debate with someone as childish and unstable as you, get help and chat with someone who cares.
Israel has not provided them with water. Israel has confiscated their water. It's their water.
Israel is taking the vast majority of the water in the limited aquifer under the West Bank for Israel's use (and for the settlements), and it has forbade the Palestinians even from using wells that existed before the start of the occupation. And it has destroyed many others. It has placed rations on their use of water, while wasting large quantities of it on non-essential uses.
Israel is committing ethnic cleansing by depriving the Palestinians of the basic necessities of life... food, water, and shelter. Do you condemn this practice, Dave?
Nope. Yours is the vitriol. I'm just presenting the FACTS.
Why is Israel bombing the barracks of the Lebanese Army if its the Lebanese Army they want on the border?
Why are they bombing Christian sea ports if they're after Hezbollah?
Why are they targetting areas outside traditional Shiite areas?
Why does Israel think they can accomplish anything by indiscriminate killing?
Looks to me as if Israel is attacking Lebanon rather than seeking out Hezbollah. Seems to me that Israel wants a full scale war.
I write to attempt an answer to dianavan's questions.
Israel's response to the capture of one of its soldiers is to destroy another country-ensuring that another generation will regard Israel as its enemy.In Palestine ,likewise, it has again unleashed terror on a monstrous scale.
The attack on civilians in both Gaza and the Lebanon has been vicious and indiscriminate. Both are in ruins with hundreds dead or wounded.
There is a real possibility of both Iran and Iraq being dragged into the conflict and only last week Israeli warplanes buzzed a palace belonging to the Syrian president Assad.
There are some in the White House who want to use the claim that Iran has supplied missiles to Hezbollah as the red light for an attack on Iran.
There is a real possibilty that the slaughter will spread.This is the most dangerous and bloody development in the region since Bush ordered "Shock and Awe"...the assault on Iraq using hundreds of cruise missiles and thousands of bombs in the first few weeks of the invasion.
dianavan is correct to point out that Israel is attacking the christian areas of The Lebanon in its orgy of desruction. It does not only seek to destroy Hezbollah it seeks to totally dominate the Lebanon itself.The thing the extremist Zionist leadership of Israel believes it can accomplish is the pulverising and humiliation of its neighbours whether in Gaza,on the West Bank or in the Lebanon.
But dont think this is something new.Israel smashed up the Lebanon 18 years ago raining death down on Beirut and the other cities in the country.It has violated Lebanese territory ever since the 1960s with its invasion,mass air raids,car bombs, assassinations ,occupation of Beirut,massacres in the refugee camps,its savage allies in the buffer zone ,laying down of 170000 mines in the country [which are still there ] and its occupation of the south.
In Palestine the story has been a similar one.Palestinian camps have been destroyed, Palestinian leaders arrested or murdered, some 160,000 acts of imprisonment have been inflicted on the Palestinians,9000 are still in jail including women and children and the civilian population of this non Israeli land have been brutalised in a thousand different ways.
But Israel will not get its way and still the Palestinians rise!!
Empty Words. Still the Palestinians inherit the leavings of others and obey the inverse of the meek shall inherit the earth. They are given Gaza and choose to destroy buildings left to them, to mis-use agricultural goods left to them, to construct weapons and fire them into Israeli territory, to invade Israeli territory and kill Israelis.
Lebanon made a pact with the devil, the kind of pact that allows armed men to attack their neighbor unprovoked. The Hez'b'Allah are beholden not to the government of Lebanon but to their idolacized leader Nas'r'ullah and to their Iranian financiers. They have been building a large collection of rockets to hit Israeli cities with.
The Palestinians as the saying goes, never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. If they had made peace before 1967 they would have a wealthy economy now, and there would be no issue about enough water. If they had made peace immediately after the '67 war they would still have had most of these. If they had made peace under Arafat, they would have not so much but more than they have now. They are operating under some long held but erroristic beliefs:
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Rather than me and my opponent feeling better, my opponent must suffer at all costs.
If Israel was gone they would fight each other.
"Jul. 10, 2006
Israel Invades Gaza. That is in response to an attack from Gaza that killed two Israelis and wounded another, who was kidnapped and brought back to Gaza ...which, in turn, was in response to Israel's targeted killing of terrorist leaders in Gaza...which, in turn, was in response to the indiscriminate shelling of Israeli towns by rockets launched from Gaza.
Of all the conflicts in the world, the one that seems the most tediously and hopelessly endless is the Arab-Israeli dispute, which has been going on in much the same way, it seems, for 60 years. Just about every story you'll see will characterize Israel's invasion of Gaza as a continuation of the cycle of violence.
Cycles are circular. They have no end. They have no beginning. That is why, as tempting as that figure of speech is to use, in this case it is false. It is as false as calling American attacks on Taliban remnants in Afghanistan part of a cycle of violence between the U.S. and al-Qaeda or, as Osama bin Laden would have it, between Islam and the Crusaders going back to 1099. Every party has its grievances--even Hitler had his list when he invaded Poland in 1939--but every conflict has its origin.
What is so remarkable about the current wave of violence in Gaza is that the event at the origin of the "cycle" is not at all historical, but very contemporary. The event is not buried in the mists of history. It occurred less than one year ago. Before the eyes of the whole world, Israel left Gaza. Every Jew, every soldier, every military installation, every remnant of Israeli occupation was uprooted and taken away.
The logic for those continued attacks is to be found in the so-called phase plan adopted in 1974 by the Palestine National Council in Cairo. Realizing that they would never be able to destroy Israel in one fell swoop, the Palestinians adopted a graduated plan to wipe out Israel. First, accept any territory given to them in any part of historic Palestine. Then, use that sanctuary to wage war until Israel is destroyed.
So in 2005 the Palestinians are given Gaza, free of any Jews. Do they begin building the state they say they want, constructing schools and roads and hospitals? No. They launch rockets at civilians and dig a 300-yard tunnel under the border to attack Israeli soldiers and bring back a hostage.
And this time the terrorism is carried out not by some shadowy group that the Palestinian leader can disavow, however disingenuously. This is Hamas in action--the group that was recently elected to lead the Palestinians. At least there is now truth in advertising: a Palestinian government openly committed to terrorism and to the destruction of a member state of the U.N. openly uses terrorism to carry on its war.
That is no cycle. That is an arrow. That is action with a purpose. The action began 59 years ago when the U.N. voted to solve the Palestine conundrum then ruled by Britain by creating a Jewish state and a Palestinian state side by side. The Jews accepted the compromise; the Palestinians rejected it and joined five outside Arab countries in a war to destroy the Jewish state and take all the territory for themselves."