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Mm.

mm.

Right in this chili belt that Jeff and Ed are describing.

right in this chili belt that, jeff and ed are.

Right in this chili belt that Jeff and Ed are

right in this chili belt that jeff and ed are describing.

Ed, you breed chili peppers. I have to say it's a great name for a chili pepper breeder. Ed Curry.

ed you breed chili peppers i have; to say it's a great name for, a chili pepper breeder ed

Ed you breed chili peppers, I have to say it's a, great name for a chili pepper breeder; Ed

ed, you breed chili peppers. i have to say it's a great name for a chili pepper breeder. ed curry.

(Soundbite of laughter)

(soundbite of.

(Soundbite of

(soundbite of laughter)

Chili pepper breeder. What kind of traits do you look for? I mean, give me the ABC's of breeding a chili pepper. I mean, there a lot of different things you could choose for. What do you select at? What are you looking for?

chili pepper breeder what kind of traits do you look for? i mean give me the abc's of breeding a chili. pepper i mean there a lot of different things you could choose for what do. you select at? what are you looking

Chili pepper breeder What kind. of traits do you look for? I mean give me the ABC's, of breeding a, chili pepper I mean there. a lot of different things you could choose for What do. you select at? What are you looking

chili pepper breeder. what kind of traits do you look for? i mean, give me the abc's of breeding a chili pepper. i mean, there a lot of different things you could choose for. what do you select at? what are you looking for?

We look for - specifically in the canning industry, we look to make it two wall. I brought one here, obviously radio audience can't see it, but we look for a two-wall, slim-type chili which we've tried to make it a little bigger, a little girthier. Specifically right now we're trying to make the skin thinner, we're looking for thinner skins, so there's less waste product to the canning industry. We're looking for more yield. How we got on the map, Phil V. and myself - Phil's just a renowned pepper breeder around the world. But how we got famous in this, quote unquote "was by stabilizing the heat." And that variety was Arizona 20. As this industry spread to the north and to the east and new connoisseurs of chili were coming in, it needed a standardized heat because you know yourself. If you went to a restaurant one time and got a mild chili and you went the next time...

we look for - specifically in. the canning industry we look to. make it two wall, i brought; one here obviously radio audience can't see it but we, look for a two-wall. slim-type chili which we've tried to, make it a little, bigger a little girthier specifically right now we're trying to make the skin thinner we're looking for thinner skins so there's less waste product to the canning industry we're looking; for more yield, how we got on the map phil v and myself - phil's just a, renowned pepper breeder. around the world but, how we got famous in this quote. unquote, "was by stabilizing the heat" and that variety was; arizona 20. as this industry, spread to the north and to the east and new connoisseurs. of chili were coming in it needed a standardized heat because you know yourself, if you went to a restaurant one time and got a. mild chili, and you went the next

We look for - specifically in the canning industry we look to make, it, two, wall I brought one here obviously radio audience, can't, see. it, but we look for a two-wall slim-type chili which we've tried to make it a little bigger a little girthier Specifically right now, we're trying to make the skin thinner we're looking for thinner skins so there's; less waste, product, to the canning industry, We're looking for more yield How we got on the map Phil V. and myself - Phil's just a renowned pepper breeder around the world But how, we got famous in this; quote unquote "was by stabilizing the heat" And that variety was Arizona 20. As this industry, spread to the north and to the east and new connoisseurs of chili were coming in it needed a standardized heat because you know yourself If you went to a restaurant one time and got a mild chili and you went the, next

we look for - specifically in the canning industry, we look to make it two wall. i brought one here, obviously radio audience can't see it, but we look for a two-wall, slim-type chili which we've tried to make it a little bigger, a little girthier. specifically right now we're trying to make the skin thinner, we're looking for thinner skins, so there's less waste product to the canning industry. we're looking for more yield. how we got on the map, phil v. and myself - phil's just a renowned pepper breeder around the world. but how we got famous in this, quote unquote "was by stabilizing the heat." and that variety was arizona 20. as this industry spread to the north and to the east and new connoisseurs of chili were coming in, it needed a standardized heat because you know yourself. if you went to a restaurant one time and got a mild chili and you went the next time...

Right.

right.

And you got your head burned off.

and you got your head burned

And you got your head burned

and you got your head burned off.

Yeah.

yeah.

So when we standardized, it may - that was one of the first characteristics we looked for.

so when we standardized it, may - that was one of the first characteristics we looked

So when we standardized it may; - that was one of the first characteristics we, looked

so when we standardized, it may - that was one of the first characteristics we looked for.

We Westerners don't either, especially those of us trying to make a living. It - red doesn't mean hotter. Red is only a state of maturity. I said this on a Phoenix TV station some years ago. You know, as a human, when you get old, you turn wrinkled while a chili turns red. It's just, strictly, maturity. The heat is - developed - the capsaicin oil is produced right on the placenta wall of the pepper and it comes down that placenta wall. The further down the placenta wall, obviously, the hotter the pepper. Many people think the seeds are hot. Only true because the capsaicin is rubbed off on the seeds sometimes in processing. The seed in, any of itself, is not hot. It's strictly that oil that is developed along the placenta wall.

we westerners don't either, especially those of us trying, to make, a living it - red doesn't, mean hotter red, is only a state of maturity i said this on a, phoenix tv station. some years ago you know as a human when; you get, old you, turn. wrinkled while a, chili turns red, it's just strictly maturity the heat is - developed - the capsaicin oil is. produced right on the placenta wall of, the pepper and it comes down that placenta wall the further down the placenta wall obviously the hotter the pepper many people think the seeds are hot only true because the capsaicin is rubbed off on the seeds sometimes in processing the seed in any of itself is not hot it's strictly that oil that is; developed along the placenta

We, Westerners don't either especially those of us trying to make a living It. - red doesn't mean hotter Red is only a state of maturity I said this on a Phoenix TV, station some years ago You know; as a human when you get old you turn wrinkled while a chili turns red It's just strictly maturity The. heat is - developed - the capsaicin oil is produced right on the placenta wall of the pepper and it comes down that, placenta wall The further down the placenta wall obviously, the hotter the pepper Many people think the seeds are hot Only true because the capsaicin is rubbed off on the seeds sometimes in processing The seed in any of, itself is not hot It's strictly that oil that is developed along the placenta

we westerners don't either, especially those of us trying to make a living. it - red doesn't mean hotter. red is only a state of maturity. i said this on a phoenix tv station some years ago. you know, as a human, when you get old, you turn wrinkled while a chili turns red. it's just, strictly, maturity. the heat is - developed - the capsaicin oil is produced right on the placenta wall of the pepper and it comes down that placenta wall. the further down the placenta wall, obviously, the hotter the pepper. many people think the seeds are hot. only true because the capsaicin is rubbed off on the seeds sometimes in processing. the seed in, any of itself, is not hot. it's strictly that oil that is developed along the placenta wall.

So the oil is not in the seed then.

so the oil is not in the seed

So the oil is not in the seed

so the oil is not in the seed then.

No.

no.

It's in not the seed.

it's in not the.

It's in not the

it's in not the seed.

No. That's correct. The oil - if you cut a pepper...

no that's correct the oil - if you cut a

No That's, correct The oil - if, you cut, a

no. that's correct. the oil - if you cut a pepper...

Right.

right.

And I can cut one for the audience for the audience here. If you cut a pepper, you're going to see that oil. A little shiny blisters right along that placenta wall and there is so many uses for that. And you'll probably ask questions later.

and i can cut one, for the audience for. the audience here if you cut a pepper you're going to. see that oil, a little shiny blisters right along that placenta wall and there is. so many uses for that and you'll probably ask questions

And I can cut one for the audience. for the audience here If you. cut a pepper you're going to see that oil A little shiny blisters. right along. that placenta wall and there is so many uses for that And you'll probably ask questions

and i can cut one for the audience for the audience here. if you cut a pepper, you're going to see that oil. a little shiny blisters right along that placenta wall and there is so many uses for that. and you'll probably ask questions later.

Oh, you can tell us whenever you'd like to.

oh you can tell us. whenever. you'd like

Oh you can tell us whenever you'd like

oh, you can tell us whenever you'd like to.

OK.

ok.

But let me ask you about this. When you cut the wall, you release that hot oil. How do you measure how hot? Is there a terminology or standard for heat?

but let me; ask you about; this. when, you cut the wall, you release that hot oil, how do you measure how hot? is there a terminology or standard for

But let me ask you about this When you cut the, wall you release; that hot oil How do you measure how hot? Is there a, terminology or standard for

but let me ask you about this. when you cut the wall, you release that hot oil. how do you measure how hot? is there a terminology or standard for heat?

Scoville unit.

scoville

Scoville

scoville unit.

Is there a guy named Scoville?

is there a guy named

Is. there a guy named

is there a guy named scoville?

A guy named, Scoville, many moons ago that developed it. There's a HPLC tester that measures. The beauty that God gave us in quantification is really neat because we're able to quantify heat. And yesterday, we talked extensively with Annette(ph) about why is that important. When you go to the store and you buy a bottle of salsa and it's more mild, medium or hot. By standardizing that through the HPLC machine, we can actually give the custumer the same heat level in every jar.

a guy named scoville many moons ago that developed it there's a hplc tester that measures the beauty that god gave us in quantification is really neat because we're able to quantify heat and yesterday we talked extensively with annette(ph) about why is that important when you go to the store and you buy a bottle of; salsa and it's more mild medium or hot by standardizing that, through the hplc machine we can, actually give the custumer. the same heat level in every

A guy named Scoville many moons ago that developed it There's a HPLC tester that measures The beauty that God gave us in quantification is really neat because we're able to quantify heat And yesterday we talked extensively with Annette(ph) about why is, that important When you go to the store and you buy a bottle of salsa and it's more mild medium or hot, By standardizing that through. the HPLC machine we can actually give the custumer the same heat level in every

a guy named, scoville, many moons ago that developed it. there's a hplc tester that measures. the beauty that god gave us in quantification is really neat because we're able to quantify heat. and yesterday, we talked extensively with annette(ph) about why is that important. when you go to the store and you buy a bottle of salsa and it's more mild, medium or hot. by standardizing that through the hplc machine, we can actually give the custumer the same heat level in every jar.

What's the range of Scoville units for those three categories? Is there something like five to ten is one heat. Ten to twenty something...

what's the range of scoville units for those. three categories? is there something like five to ten is one heat ten; to twenty

What's the range of Scoville units for those three categories? Is there something. like five, to ten is one heat Ten to twenty

what's the range of scoville units for those three categories? is there something like five to ten is one heat. ten to twenty something...

Typically, I don't know if I'll hit this exact. But roughly, probably mild sauce is going to be 50 Scoville units. Medium is probably going to be 150 to 200. Hot is going to be 500. Now, when you get out - when you get over here to New Mexico and Arizona - my friends at New Mexico State will all testify that, you know, it's a much - much, much hotter than that. But typically, like your Pace Picante, your brand name, Picante sauces, are going to be in that range.

typically i don't know if i'll hit this exact but roughly probably mild sauce is going to, be 50 scoville units medium is probably going to be 150 to 200. hot is going to be 500. now. when you get out - when you get over here to new mexico. and arizona - my friends at new mexico state will all testify. that you know it's a much - much much hotter than that but typically like your pace picante your brand name picante sauces are going to be, in that

Typically I don't know if I'll hit. this exact But roughly. probably mild sauce is going to be 50 Scoville units Medium is probably going, to be 150 to. 200. Hot is going to be 500. Now when you get out - when you get over here to New; Mexico. and Arizona - my friends, at New Mexico State will all testify that you know it's a much - much much hotter than; that. But typically like your Pace Picante your brand name Picante sauces are going to be in that

typically, i don't know if i'll hit this exact. but roughly, probably mild sauce is going to be 50 scoville units. medium is probably going to be 150 to 200. hot is going to be 500. now, when you get out - when you get over here to new mexico and arizona - my friends at new mexico state will all testify that, you know, it's a much - much, much hotter than that. but typically, like your pace picante, your brand name, picante sauces, are going to be in that range.

All right. We're going to take a break and come back and talk about - some more about chili peppers. Maybe there'll be Scoville units on your menu someday to tell you how hot this stuff is. We could start that instead of those little numbers of chilies lined up how hot it is. Stay with us. We'll be right back and talk more about chili peppers with Jeff Silvertooth, Ed Curry and Gary Nabhan. And right here in Tucson. Don't go away.

all right we're going to take a break. and come, back and talk about - some more about chili peppers maybe there'll, be scoville units on your menu, someday to tell you how hot this, stuff. is we could start that instead of those little numbers, of chilies lined up how hot it is stay with us we'll be right back and talk more about chili peppers with jeff silvertooth ed curry and gary nabhan and. right here in tucson don't go,

All right; We're going to take a break. and come; back, and talk. about - some more about chili peppers Maybe there'll be Scoville units on your menu someday to tell you, how. hot this stuff is We could start that instead of those little numbers of chilies lined up how hot it is Stay with us We'll be right back and talk more about chili peppers with Jeff Silvertooth Ed Curry and Gary Nabhan And right here in Tucson Don't go

all right. we're going to take a break and come back and talk about - some more about chili peppers. maybe there'll be scoville units on your menu someday to tell you how hot this stuff is. we could start that instead of those little numbers of chilies lined up how hot it is. stay with us. we'll be right back and talk more about chili peppers with jeff silvertooth, ed curry and gary nabhan. and right here in tucson. don't go away.

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You're listening to Talk of the Nation: Science Friday. I'm Ira Flatow. We're talking this hour about the science of chili peppers with my guest Jeff Silvertooth, professor and head of Plant Sciences at the University of Arizona. Ed Curry, farmer and owner of Curry Seed and Chili in Pearce, Arizona. Gary Nabhan is a research scientist at the University of Arizona and author of "Why Some Like it Hot: Food, Genes, and Cultural Diversity." And Gary mentioned before - talked about a wild chili botanical reserve south of Tucson that is down there. I want to introduce my next guest, Jean England Neubauer. She is with us. Anyway, welcome to Science Friday.

you're listening to talk of the nation: science friday i'm ira flatow we're talking this hour about the science, of chili peppers with my guest jeff silvertooth professor. and head of plant sciences at, the university of arizona ed curry farmer and owner, of, curry, seed and chili in pearce arizona gary nabhan is a research scientist at the university of arizona and author of "why some like it hot: food; genes and cultural diversity" and gary mentioned before - talked about a wild chili botanical reserve south of tucson that is down there i want to introduce my next guest jean england neubauer she is with us anyway welcome to science,

You're listening to Talk of the Nation: Science Friday I'm; Ira Flatow We're talking, this hour about the science of chili peppers, with. my guest Jeff Silvertooth professor and head of Plant Sciences at the University of Arizona Ed Curry farmer and owner of Curry Seed and Chili in Pearce Arizona, Gary Nabhan is, a research scientist at the University of Arizona and author of "Why Some Like it Hot: Food Genes, and Cultural Diversity" And Gary mentioned before - talked about a wild chili botanical reserve south of, Tucson that is down there I want to introduce my next guest Jean England Neubauer She is with us. Anyway welcome to. Science

you're listening to talk of the nation: science friday. i'm ira flatow. we're talking this hour about the science of chili peppers with my guest jeff silvertooth, professor and head of plant sciences at the university of arizona. ed curry, farmer and owner of curry seed and chili in pearce, arizona. gary nabhan is a research scientist at the university of arizona and author of "why some like it hot: food, genes, and cultural diversity." and gary mentioned before - talked about a wild chili botanical reserve south of tucson that is down there. i want to introduce my next guest, jean england neubauer. she is with us. anyway, welcome to science friday.

Thank you. It's great to have you here.

thank you it's great to have you,

Thank you It's great to have you

thank you. it's great to have you here.

Tell us about this reserve.

tell us about this.

Tell us about this

tell us about this reserve.

Well, actually, my family is head of the grazing rights on the Rock Corral Canyon down south of Tucson since 1900s. And we also have a chili company called Santa Cruz Chili and Spice Company. So when Gary Nabhan came to me and he and some friends, they've been out researching and camping out in the desert and he said, I think up on your grazing reserve. We found some very unusual chiltepins and I'd like to go in to call for cooperation and put together a biological reserve up there. So we were very, very excited and happy to work with Gary.

well actually my family is head of the grazing rights on the rock corral canyon down south of tucson since 1900s and we also have a, chili company called santa cruz chili and spice company so when gary nabhan came to me and he and some friends they've been out researching and camping out in the desert and, he said i, think up on your grazing reserve we found some very; unusual chiltepins and i'd like to go in to call for cooperation and put together a, biological, reserve up there so we were very very excited and happy to work with,

Well actually my family. is head of the grazing rights on the Rock Corral Canyon down south of Tucson since 1900s And we also have a chili, company called Santa Cruz Chili and Spice Company So, when Gary Nabhan came to me and he and some. friends they've been out researching and camping; out in the desert and he said I think up on your grazing reserve We found some very unusual chiltepins and I'd like to go in to call, for cooperation, and, put together a biological reserve up there So we were, very very excited and happy to work. with

well, actually, my family is head of the grazing rights on the rock corral canyon down south of tucson since 1900s. and we also have a chili company called santa cruz chili and spice company. so when gary nabhan came to me and he and some friends, they've been out researching and camping out in the desert and he said, i think up on your grazing reserve. we found some very unusual chiltepins and i'd like to go in to call for cooperation and put together a biological reserve up there. so we were very, very excited and happy to work with gary.

What do you do on the preserve? What goes on there?

what. do you do, on the preserve? what goes. on

What do you do on; the preserve? What goes on

what do you do on the preserve? what goes on there?

Well basically, it's just - is an effort to protect the environment where these chilies - these chiltepins are actually growing. And one of - part of the research we did is because we have a cattle grazing operation up there. We wanted to be sure that they could be compatible. And Gary came to us and said that they're absolutely were compatible. And essentially, they're just there for us to sort of take care of and make sure that nothing happens to them.

well. basically, it's just - is an effort to protect the environment where these chilies - these chiltepins are actually growing and one of, - part of the research we did, is because we have a cattle grazing operation up there we wanted to be sure that they could be compatible and gary came to us and said that they're absolutely were compatible and essentially they're just there for us to sort of take care of and make sure. that nothing happens to

Well basically it's just - is an effort to protect, the environment where these chilies - these chiltepins are actually growing And one of - part of the research we did is because we have a cattle, grazing operation up there We wanted. to be sure that they could be compatible And Gary came to us and said that they're absolutely were compatible; And essentially they're just there, for us to sort, of take care of and make sure that nothing happens to

well basically, it's just - is an effort to protect the environment where these chilies - these chiltepins are actually growing. and one of - part of the research we did is because we have a cattle grazing operation up there. we wanted to be sure that they could be compatible. and gary came to us and said that they're absolutely were compatible. and essentially, they're just there for us to sort of take care of and make sure that nothing happens to them.

Now chiltepins are some of the hottest chilies you can get.

now chiltepins are some of the hottest chilies you can

Now chiltepins are some of the hottest chilies you can

now chiltepins are some of the hottest chilies you can get.

They're very hot. They're very hot.

they're very hot they're very

They're very hot; They're very

they're very hot. they're very hot.

They're way over the 500 number that (unintelligible).

they're way over the 500 number that

They're way over the 500 number that,

they're way over the 500 number that (unintelligible).

You know, I'm not sure what's the Scoville on chiltepins.

you, know i'm not sure. what's the scoville on

You know I'm not sure what's the Scoville on

you know, i'm not sure what's the scoville on chiltepins.

Chiltepin is probably going to be in 50 to 100,000 range.

chiltepin is probably going, to be in 50 to

Chiltepin is probably going to be in 50 to

chiltepin is probably going to be in 50 to 100,000 range.

There you go.

there you

There you,

there you go.

Wow!

wow!

But they're great. They're full of flavor and they are just wonderful. You know, people use them sort of for medicinal purposes...

but they're great they're full of flavor and they are just wonderful you know people, use them sort of for medicinal

But they're great They're, full of flavor and they are just wonderful You know, people use them. sort, of for. medicinal

but they're great. they're full of flavor and they are just wonderful. you know, people use them sort of for medicinal purposes...

Right.

right.

In terms of firing up your menudo and things like that. That's very good you.

in terms of firing up your menudo and things like that that's very good

In terms of firing up your menudo and things like that That's. very good

in terms of firing up your menudo and things like that. that's very good you.

So you don't want to ever bite into one of these...

so you don't, want to ever, bite into one of

So you don't want to ever bite, into one of

so you don't want to ever bite into one of these...

Oh, sure you can.

oh sure you

Oh sure you

oh, sure you can.

(Unintelligible).

(unintelligible).

I'm sure you can. Sure you can.

i'm sure you can sure you

I'm sure you can Sure you

i'm sure you can. sure you can.

Without a glass...

without a

Without a

without a glass...

Yeah. But you have to be careful.

yeah but you have, to be

Yeah But you have to be

yeah. but you have to be careful.

You have to be careful.

you have to be

You have to, be.

you have to be careful.

Yeah. You have to be really - you really need to love your hot chili.

yeah you have to be really - you really need to love your hot

Yeah You have to be really - you really need to love, your hot

yeah. you have to be really - you really need to love your hot chili.

Thank you very much for taking time to talk with us today.

thank you very much for. taking time to talk with, us

Thank you very much for taking time to talk with us

thank you very much for taking time to talk with us today.

Sure.

sure.

We'll be ready for questions later.

we'll be ready for questions

We'll be ready for questions

we'll be ready for questions later.

Thank you.

thank

Thank

thank you.

That's a hot chili pepper.

that's a hot chili

That's. a hot chili

that's a hot chili pepper.

As I think about, I'm not exactly for sure on that. Habanero was 150 to 300,000. But a chiltepin is very hot. I don't know the number. I'll be honest with you. I don't know. It is hot.

as i think about i'm not exactly. for sure on that habanero was 150 to 300,000. but, a. chiltepin is very hot i don't, know the number i'll be. honest with you i. don't know it is

As I think. about I'm not exactly for sure, on that Habanero was 150 to 300,000. But a chiltepin is very hot I don't know the number I'll be honest, with you I don't know It, is

as i think about, i'm not exactly for sure on that. habanero was 150 to 300,000. but a chiltepin is very hot. i don't know the number. i'll be honest with you. i don't know. it is hot.

It's 50...

it's

It's

it's 50...

Go ahead.

go

Go

go ahead.

It's 50 to 100,000, I think you hit it on the mark. So it's...

it's 50 to 100,000, i, think you hit it on the mark so

It's 50 to 100,000, I think you hit it on the mark So

it's 50 to 100,000, i think you hit it on the mark. so it's...

Thank you, Gary.

thank you

Thank you

thank you, gary.

Several times less than the habanero is, of course, many less than this Bhut Jalokia chili. That's the reigning king of heat, which is up over a million Scoville units now, and it's a chili from India.

several times less than the habanero is of course many less than this bhut jalokia chili that's the reigning king; of; heat which is up over a million scoville units now and it's, a chili from

Several times less than the habanero is. of course many less than this Bhut Jalokia chili That's the reigning king of heat which. is up over, a million Scoville units now and it's a chili from

several times less than the habanero is, of course, many less than this bhut jalokia chili. that's the reigning king of heat, which is up over a million scoville units now, and it's a chili from india.

And people can eat that. Gary...

and people can eat that

And people can eat that

and people can eat that. gary...

Well...

well...

Gary, are there certain cultures that are able to eat, you know, hotter chilies than others?

gary. are there certain cultures that are able to eat you know hotter chilies than.

Gary are there certain cultures that, are able to eat you know hotter chilies than

gary, are there certain cultures that are able to eat, you know, hotter chilies than others?

Cultures have become accustomed to this - to eating spicy food. In tropical climates, we have a number of cultures that seem to have a predilection for spicy foods. But there's something in the genes that make people non-tasters of certain bitter and spicy compounds, where other people - largely people from the northern latitudes - may be super tasters. So, the same amount of Scoville units can affect two people, like my wife and I, very differently.

cultures have become accustomed to this - to eating, spicy food in tropical climates we have a number of cultures that seem to have, a predilection. for spicy; foods but there's something in the genes that make people non-tasters of certain bitter and spicy compounds, where other people - largely people from the northern latitudes - may; be super tasters so the same amount of scoville units can affect two; people like my wife and i very

Cultures, have become accustomed to this - to eating spicy food In tropical climates we have a number of cultures that seem to have, a predilection, for spicy foods But there's something in the genes that make people, non-tasters of certain, bitter and spicy compounds where other people - largely people from the northern latitudes - may be super tasters So the same amount of Scoville units can affect two people like my, wife and I very

cultures have become accustomed to this - to eating spicy food. in tropical climates, we have a number of cultures that seem to have a predilection for spicy foods. but there's something in the genes that make people non-tasters of certain bitter and spicy compounds, where other people - largely people from the northern latitudes - may be super tasters. so, the same amount of scoville units can affect two people, like my wife and i, very differently.

1-800-989-8255. Let's see if we can - let's see if we can go to the phones. I got a couple of phone calls here. And maybe get some questions about chili peppers. Let's go to Patricio in Chicago. Hi. Welcome to Science Friday.

1-800-989-8255. let's see if we can - let's see if we can go to the phones, i got a couple of phone calls here and maybe get some questions about chili peppers, let's go to patricio in chicago hi welcome to science

1-800-989-8255. Let's see if we can - let's see if we can, go to. the phones I got a couple of phone calls here And maybe get some questions about chili peppers Let's go to Patricio in Chicago Hi Welcome to. Science

1-800-989-8255. let's see if we can - let's see if we can go to the phones. i got a couple of phone calls here. and maybe get some questions about chili peppers. let's go to patricio in chicago. hi. welcome to science friday.

Hi. How are you doing?

hi how are, you

Hi How are you.

hi. how are you doing?

Hi, there.

hi

Hi

hi, there.

I was wondering if you could talk about the difference between hot chilies and spicy chilies. It's been my experience that I like spicy because they're full of flavor and the hot ones are just burning.

i. was wondering if you could. talk about the difference between hot chilies and spicy chilies, it's, been my experience that i like spicy because they're full of flavor and the hot ones are just

I was. wondering if you could; talk about the difference between hot; chilies and spicy chilies. It's been my experience that. I like spicy because they're full. of flavor and the hot ones are just

i was wondering if you could talk about the difference between hot chilies and spicy chilies. it's been my experience that i like spicy because they're full of flavor and the hot ones are just burning.

Hot spot. All right, OK, anybody want to take on that one? Jeff, Ed?

hot spot all, right ok anybody want to take on that one? jeff

Hot spot All right, OK anybody want to take on that one? Jeff

hot spot. all right, ok, anybody want to take on that one? jeff, ed?

Well, probably it's a function of taste and semantics a little bit. Every type of chili has a different flavor with it. They come from the flesh and the structure of the chili itself. And so, a hot chili might just be, you know, let's say, 100 to 500 Scoville units - extremely hot. Spicy chili would be even higher than that. So it's probably just a matter or particular taste and preference.

well probably it's a function of, taste and semantics a. little bit every type of chili has a different flavor with it they come, from the flesh and the structure of the. chili itself and so a, hot chili might just be you know let's say 100 to 500 scoville, units - extremely. hot spicy chili would be even higher than that so it's probably just a. matter or particular taste and

Well probably it's a function of taste and semantics a little bit Every type of chili has a different flavor with it They come from the flesh. and the, structure of, the chili itself And, so a hot chili might just. be you know let's say 100 to 500 Scoville units - extremely hot Spicy chili would be even higher than that So it's probably just a matter or particular taste and

well, probably it's a function of taste and semantics a little bit. every type of chili has a different flavor with it. they come from the flesh and the structure of the chili itself. and so, a hot chili might just be, you know, let's say, 100 to 500 scoville units - extremely hot. spicy chili would be even higher than that. so it's probably just a matter or particular taste and preference.

Gary, any comment?

gary any

Gary any.

gary, any comment?

Well, there's many flavor compounds in chilies. And most good chili breeders like these guys are going for the flavor not just the heat. And so, we tend to spend an inordinate amount of time just talking about where they are on the Scoville scale that clearly, habenero or a jalapeno tastes very different from the fine, spicy chilies that are coming out of southeastern Arizona and New Mexico that I feel have been selected for flavor over decades.

well there's many flavor compounds in chilies and most good chili breeders. like these, guys are going for. the, flavor not just the heat and so we tend to spend an inordinate amount of time just talking about where they are on the scoville scale that clearly habenero or a jalapeno tastes very different from, the fine spicy chilies that are coming out of southeastern arizona and new mexico that i feel have been selected for flavor over

Well there's many flavor compounds in. chilies, And most good chili breeders like these guys are going for the flavor not just the heat And so we tend to spend an inordinate amount of time just talking about where they are on the Scoville scale that clearly habenero or. a jalapeno tastes, very different from the fine spicy chilies that are. coming out of. southeastern Arizona and New Mexico that I feel have been selected for. flavor over,

well, there's many flavor compounds in chilies. and most good chili breeders like these guys are going for the flavor not just the heat. and so, we tend to spend an inordinate amount of time just talking about where they are on the scoville scale that clearly, habenero or a jalapeno tastes very different from the fine, spicy chilies that are coming out of southeastern arizona and new mexico that i feel have been selected for flavor over decades.

You know, we know that salsa has surpassed ketchup sales in this country. Is that a good thing for bringing back some of these wild chili varieties, Gary, that may be dying up?

you know we know. that salsa has surpassed ketchup sales in this country is that a good thing for bringing back some, of. these wild chili varieties gary, that may be dying,

You know we know that salsa has surpassed, ketchup, sales in this country Is. that. a good. thing. for bringing back some of these wild chili, varieties Gary that may be dying

you know, we know that salsa has surpassed ketchup sales in this country. is that a good thing for bringing back some of these wild chili varieties, gary, that may be dying up?

Well, we have fragmented in declining populations of wild chilies where some of the land managers aren't as conscientious as Jean and her husband, and her mother and father before them who had been fine managers of the land where the wild chilies grow. But we also know from our Renewing America's Food Traditions project that we have dozens of traditional heir-loomed chilies like the fish(ph) pepper and the datil chili pepper and chimayo and elwikei(ph) chilies from New Mexico that are now not only in decline, there's fewer and fewer farmers growing them. But we also know that they've been contaminated by accident, out crossing with other varieties, so they don't have the - always a characteristics that they were first bred for and known for. Their skin thickness may change or their flavor may change due to this accidental out crossing with other varieties. So, Renewing America's Food Traditions based at Slow Food U.S.A., is trying to get local communities to champion these different chili varieties as part of our cultural heritage, not just our natural heritage.

well we have fragmented in declining populations of wild chilies where some of the land managers aren't. as conscientious, as jean and her husband and her mother and father before them who had been fine managers of the land where the wild chilies grow but we also know from our renewing america's food traditions project that we have dozens, of traditional heir-loomed chilies. like the, fish(ph) pepper and; the datil chili pepper and chimayo and elwikei(ph) chilies, from new mexico; that are now not only in decline there's fewer and fewer farmers growing them but, we also know that they've been contaminated. by accident out crossing with other varieties so they don't have the - always. a characteristics that they were first. bred for and known for their skin thickness may change or their flavor may change due to this accidental out crossing with other varieties so renewing america's, food traditions based at slow food. u.s.a., is trying to get local communities to champion these different chili varieties as part of our cultural heritage not just our natural

Well we have fragmented in declining populations of wild chilies where some of the, land managers. aren't as conscientious as Jean and her husband and her mother and father. before them who had been fine managers of the land where the wild chilies grow But we also know from our Renewing America's Food Traditions project that we. have dozens of traditional heir-loomed chilies like the, fish(ph) pepper and the datil chili pepper and chimayo and elwikei(ph) chilies from New Mexico that are now not only in decline there's fewer and. fewer farmers growing, them But we also know that they've been contaminated, by accident out crossing with other varieties so they don't have. the - always a characteristics that they were first bred for and known for Their skin thickness may change or their flavor may change due to this accidental out crossing with other varieties So Renewing America's Food Traditions based at Slow Food U.S.A., is trying to get local communities to champion these, different. chili varieties as part of our cultural heritage not just our natural

well, we have fragmented in declining populations of wild chilies where some of the land managers aren't as conscientious as jean and her husband, and her mother and father before them who had been fine managers of the land where the wild chilies grow. but we also know from our renewing america's food traditions project that we have dozens of traditional heir-loomed chilies like the fish(ph) pepper and the datil chili pepper and chimayo and elwikei(ph) chilies from new mexico that are now not only in decline, there's fewer and fewer farmers growing them. but we also know that they've been contaminated by accident, out crossing with other varieties, so they don't have the - always a characteristics that they were first bred for and known for. their skin thickness may change or their flavor may change due to this accidental out crossing with other varieties. so, renewing america's food traditions based at slow food u.s.a., is trying to get local communities to champion these different chili varieties as part of our cultural heritage, not just our natural heritage.

Ed, are you more interested in looking for some of these wild chilies or breeding your own? Are you breeding them, you know, in a new way or using the old Mendeleev sort of...

ed are. you more interested in, looking for some of these wild chilies or breeding your own? are you breeding them, you know in a new way or using the old mendeleev sort

Ed are you more interested in looking for some of these wild chilies or breeding your own? Are, you breeding, them you know in a new way or using the old Mendeleev. sort

ed, are you more interested in looking for some of these wild chilies or breeding your own? are you breeding them, you know, in a new way or using the old mendeleev sort of...

Oh, definitely the old way.

oh; definitely the old

Oh definitely the old

oh, definitely the old way.

Definitely. Dr. Steve Hansen in New Mexico States works with this on possibly doing some transgenic things. But it's - chili is very diverse genetically so, it's very difficult. That has been a long process. But let me back up on that flavor profile just a minute.

definitely dr steve hansen in; new mexico states works with this, on possibly doing some transgenic things but it's - chili is very diverse genetically so it's. very difficult, that has been a long process but let me back up on that flavor profile just a

Definitely Dr Steve Hansen in New Mexico. States works with this on possibly doing some transgenic things But it's - chili, is very diverse genetically so it's very difficult That has been a long process But let. me back. up on that flavor profile just a

definitely. dr. steve hansen in new mexico states works with this on possibly doing some transgenic things. but it's - chili is very diverse genetically so, it's very difficult. that has been a long process. but let me back up on that flavor profile just a minute.

Sure.

sure.

To hit the nail on the head. Thank you, Gary. There's many flavor compounds. Dr. Benvy, alone at Texas A&M, spent years working on flavor compounds and then Philby and myself - Phil made many crosses. We took them to the farm, grew them out, segregated them, isolated them. For instance, a chili ancho - if you're familiar with ancho or flavano(ph) - tends to have a high rate of chlorophyll in it. It has a chlorophyll retainer gene. That in itself causes it to be a deep dark green, gives it a different flavor. But then there's starch genes or sugar genes that when you start combining those - the fellow that called in and asked about flavor versus heat, that's exactly - one of our challenges is, years ago when Arizona 20 that Phil bred became the standard of the industry, that was a great yielder, a great canner, and the heat level was very stable in it. But the flavor was very bland.

to hit the. nail on the head thank you gary there's many flavor compounds. dr benvy alone at texas a&m spent years working on flavor compounds and. then. philby and myself - phil made many crosses we took them to the farm; grew them out segregated them isolated them for instance a chili ancho - if, you're familiar with ancho or flavano(ph) - tends to have a high rate of chlorophyll in it it has a chlorophyll retainer gene, that in itself causes it to be a deep dark green gives it a different flavor but then there's starch genes or sugar genes that when you start combining those - the fellow that called in and. asked about flavor versus heat that's exactly - one of our challenges is, years ago when arizona 20 that phil bred became the standard of the industry that, was. a great yielder a great. canner and the heat level was very stable in it. but the flavor was very

To hit the nail on the head Thank you. Gary There's many flavor compounds Dr Benvy alone at Texas A&M, spent years working on flavor compounds and then. Philby and myself - Phil made. many crosses. We took. them to the farm grew, them out segregated them isolated them For instance a chili ancho - if you're familiar with ancho or flavano(ph) - tends to have a high rate of chlorophyll in it It has a chlorophyll retainer gene That, in. itself causes it to be a deep dark green gives it a. different flavor But then there's starch genes. or sugar genes that when you start combining those - the fellow that called in and asked about flavor versus. heat that's exactly - one of our, challenges is years ago when Arizona. 20 that Phil. bred became the standard of the industry that was a great yielder a great canner and the heat level was very stable in; it But the flavor was very

to hit the nail on the head. thank you, gary. there's many flavor compounds. dr. benvy, alone at texas a&m, spent years working on flavor compounds and then philby and myself - phil made many crosses. we took them to the farm, grew them out, segregated them, isolated them. for instance, a chili ancho - if you're familiar with ancho or flavano(ph) - tends to have a high rate of chlorophyll in it. it has a chlorophyll retainer gene. that in itself causes it to be a deep dark green, gives it a different flavor. but then there's starch genes or sugar genes that when you start combining those - the fellow that called in and asked about flavor versus heat, that's exactly - one of our challenges is, years ago when arizona 20 that phil bred became the standard of the industry, that was a great yielder, a great canner, and the heat level was very stable in it. but the flavor was very bland.

So, then they came back and he said, hey, can you guys improve the flavor? So, through crossing - there's many, many ties. But for instance, the wahil(ph). The wahil chili is a high-oil content chili, dry and has a much different flavor than it does green. We crossed the wahil with an Anaheim type, the Mexico 6 type, if you will. And we got a complete different set of flavors out of that thing than we ever expected. So breeding is so fun. I feel so blessed to be able to work with Phil because through the years, we made so many crosses and seen so many different things. But that flavor profile thing is really, really an interesting subject. It is not just heat. Heat is important.

so, then they came, back and he said hey can you guys, improve the, flavor? so through crossing - there's many many ties but for instance the wahil(ph). the, wahil chili. is a high-oil content. chili dry and has a much, different flavor, than it does green we crossed the. wahil with an anaheim type the mexico, 6 type if you will and we got a complete different set of, flavors out of that thing; than we ever expected so breeding is so fun i feel, so blessed to be, able, to work with phil because through the years we made so many crosses and seen so many different things but. that flavor profile thing is really. really an interesting subject it is not just heat heat, is

So then they came back and. he said hey, can you guys improve the flavor? So through crossing - there's many many, ties But for instance the wahil(ph). The wahil chili. is a; high-oil content chili dry and has a much different flavor than, it does green We crossed the wahil with. an Anaheim type the Mexico 6 type if you will And we got a complete different set of flavors out of that thing than we ever expected So breeding is. so fun I feel so blessed to be able to work with Phil because through the years we. made so many, crosses and seen, so many different things But that flavor profile thing is really really an interesting subject It is not just heat Heat is.

so, then they came back and he said, hey, can you guys improve the flavor? so, through crossing - there's many, many ties. but for instance, the wahil(ph). the wahil chili is a high-oil content chili, dry and has a much different flavor than it does green. we crossed the wahil with an anaheim type, the mexico 6 type, if you will. and we got a complete different set of flavors out of that thing than we ever expected. so breeding is so fun. i feel so blessed to be able to work with phil because through the years, we made so many crosses and seen so many different things. but that flavor profile thing is really, really an interesting subject. it is not just heat. heat is important.

Right.

right.

But it's not just heat.

but it's not just

But. it's not just

but it's not just heat.

Jeff, we're here in the desert southwest and you mentioned that there was a - the chili belt. But what if - if you had to depend just on the rain for growing chili here, would you be able to do that or you have to depend on irrigation?

jeff we're here in the desert southwest and you mentioned that there was a - the chili belt but what if - if you had to, depend just on the rain for growing chili here would you be able to do that or you. have to depend on

Jeff, we're here in the desert southwest and you mentioned that there was a - the chili, belt But what if - if you had to depend just on the rain for growing chili here would you be able to do that or you have to depend on.

jeff, we're here in the desert southwest and you mentioned that there was a - the chili belt. but what if - if you had to depend just on the rain for growing chili here, would you be able to do that or you have to depend on irrigation?

We could probably keep a few plants alive, but we wouldn't do well with regard to yield and production from an agricultural standpoint. You know, farmers like Ed would have a hard time making a living on what they would produce just from natural rainfall, which across the chili belt, there's approximately about 10 to 12 inches a year in terms of annual precipitation. And these chilies actually require - and that's one of the projects we have right now, to find out how much water do they require, how do they - when do they require that water and what are the different rates of consumptive use that they have over the course of season. It's about 32 to 35 inches of water that the plant actually uses as we call it through (unintelligible) transpiration or consumptive use out of the system.

we could probably keep a few plants alive but. we wouldn't do well with regard to yield and production from an agricultural standpoint, you know farmers like ed would have a hard. time making a living on what they would produce just from natural, rainfall which across the chili. belt there's approximately about, 10 to 12 inches a year in terms. of annual precipitation and these chilies actually require - and that's, one of the projects we have right now. to find out how much water. do they require how do they - when do they require, that water and what are the different rates of consumptive use that they have over the; course of season it's about 32 to 35 inches of water that the plant actually uses as we call it through (unintelligible) transpiration or consumptive use out of the

We could probably keep; a few plants alive but we wouldn't. do well with regard to yield and production from an agricultural standpoint You know farmers like Ed would have a hard time making a living on what they would produce just from natural. rainfall; which across the chili. belt there's approximately about 10 to 12 inches a year in terms. of annual precipitation And these chilies actually require - and that's one of the projects we have right now to find out how much water do they require how do they - when do they require that water and. what are, the different rates of consumptive use that; they have over the course of season It's about 32 to 35 inches of water that the plant actually uses as we call it through (unintelligible) transpiration or consumptive, use. out of the,

we could probably keep a few plants alive, but we wouldn't do well with regard to yield and production from an agricultural standpoint. you know, farmers like ed would have a hard time making a living on what they would produce just from natural rainfall, which across the chili belt, there's approximately about 10 to 12 inches a year in terms of annual precipitation. and these chilies actually require - and that's one of the projects we have right now, to find out how much water do they require, how do they - when do they require that water and what are the different rates of consumptive use that they have over the course of season. it's about 32 to 35 inches of water that the plant actually uses as we call it through (unintelligible) transpiration or consumptive use out of the system.

Uh huh.

uh

Uh

uh huh.

Much more - a quite a bit more than what natural rainfall would provide.

much more - a quite. a bit more than what natural rainfall, would

Much more - a quite a bit more than what natural rainfall would

much more - a quite a bit more than what natural rainfall would provide.

Oh yeah. OK. Question in the audience here, sir.

oh, yeah ok question in the audience here,

Oh yeah OK Question in the audience here

oh yeah. ok. question in the audience here, sir.

I've always wondered what is - why do the wild chili plants have that heat? What advantage does it have for them? Does it attract fruit eating wild animals or detract them before the seeds are ripe? Or what's the deal there?

i've always wondered what is. - why do the wild chili plants, have that heat? what advantage does it. have for them? does, it attract fruit eating wild animals. or detract them before the seeds are ripe? or what's the deal

I've always wondered what is - why do the wild, chili, plants, have that heat? What advantage does it have for, them? Does it attract fruit eating wild animals or detract them before the seeds are ripe? Or what's the deal

i've always wondered what is - why do the wild chili plants have that heat? what advantage does it have for them? does it attract fruit eating wild animals or detract them before the seeds are ripe? or what's the deal there?

Gary, do you want to tackle that?

gary do you want to, tackle

Gary do you want to tackle

gary, do you want to tackle that?

Well, I've spent about 15 years of field time on that one with my buddy Jack Stutchbury who's been on Science Friday before. And what we found is that those capsaicinoids pick one compounds in chilis repel mammals who would consume the seeds. And also they repel or resist molding in the fruits, so that the seeds don't die that way, but ironically the seed dispersers of chilis, which are a number of birds including cardinals and pyrrhuloxias don't taste that heat. So, ironically birds like some people are non-tasters of the capsaicinoids and so, they readily seek the chilis out for their oils and their flavor compounds that they do pick up. And they benefit from the many rich vitamin compounds in chilis. So, essentially I say, when my little son asked me why chilis are hot, I say so birds can disperse them to nurse trees and other critters will not.

well i've spent about 15 years of field time on. that, one with my buddy jack stutchbury who's been on science friday before and what we found is that those, capsaicinoids pick one compounds in chilis repel mammals who would consume the. seeds and also they repel, or. resist molding in, the fruits so that the seeds don't die. that way but ironically the seed dispersers of chilis which are a. number of birds including cardinals and pyrrhuloxias don't taste that, heat so ironically. birds like some people are. non-tasters of the capsaicinoids and so they readily. seek the chilis out, for their oils and their flavor compounds that they do pick up and they benefit, from the many rich. vitamin compounds in. chilis so essentially. i say; when my little son asked me why chilis are hot i say so birds can disperse them, to nurse trees; and other critters will

Well I've spent about 15 years of, field time on that one with my buddy Jack Stutchbury who's been on Science Friday before And what we found is that those capsaicinoids pick; one compounds in chilis repel mammals who would consume the; seeds And also they repel or resist molding in the fruits so that the; seeds don't die that way but ironically the seed dispersers of chilis which are; a number of birds including cardinals. and. pyrrhuloxias don't taste that heat So ironically birds like some people are non-tasters of the capsaicinoids and so they; readily seek the chilis out for their oils and their flavor compounds that they do pick up And they benefit from the many rich vitamin compounds in chilis So essentially I say when my little son asked me why chilis are hot I say so birds can disperse them to nurse trees and; other critters will

well, i've spent about 15 years of field time on that one with my buddy jack stutchbury who's been on science friday before. and what we found is that those capsaicinoids pick one compounds in chilis repel mammals who would consume the seeds. and also they repel or resist molding in the fruits, so that the seeds don't die that way, but ironically the seed dispersers of chilis, which are a number of birds including cardinals and pyrrhuloxias don't taste that heat. so, ironically birds like some people are non-tasters of the capsaicinoids and so, they readily seek the chilis out for their oils and their flavor compounds that they do pick up. and they benefit from the many rich vitamin compounds in chilis. so, essentially i say, when my little son asked me why chilis are hot, i say so birds can disperse them to nurse trees and other critters will not.

I tell you my squirrels have no problem with them and I've grow hot chilis I thought - in my pots on my backyard, and I thought this will keep the squirrels out. But, boy, this is - they're chomping on the green chili just laugh at me as it's coming off the flask.

i, tell you my squirrels have no problem with them and i've grow hot chilis i thought - in my, pots on my backyard and i thought this will keep the squirrels out but boy this is - they're chomping on the green chili just laugh at me as it's, coming off the

I tell you. my squirrels, have. no problem with them and I've grow hot chilis I thought - in my pots on my. backyard and I thought this will keep the squirrels out, But boy this is - they're chomping on the green chili just laugh at, me as it's coming off the

i tell you my squirrels have no problem with them and i've grow hot chilis i thought - in my pots on my backyard, and i thought this will keep the squirrels out. but, boy, this is - they're chomping on the green chili just laugh at me as it's coming off the flask.

Can I interrupt your...

can i interrupt,

Can I interrupt

can i interrupt your...

Sure.

sure.

Gary, I tell you an interesting story in our cayenne breeding blocks. We had a problem with a particular cayenne that was too mild, and one year my farm manager came by and he said man, did you see the deer really ate riddle that cayenne blocks. Well, upon closer notice we found that the deer did us a great favor from a breathing stand point. We were looking for hot. They ate every mild cayenne plant out there and they left every hot one. It saved us three or four years in breeding work.

gary i tell you an interesting story in our cayenne breeding blocks, we had a problem with a particular cayenne that was too mild and one year my farm manager, came by and. he said man did, you see the, deer really ate riddle that, cayenne blocks well upon closer notice we found that the deer did us, a, great favor from a breathing stand point we were looking for hot they ate, every. mild cayenne plant out there and they left every hot one it saved us. three or four years in breeding

Gary I tell you an interesting story in our, cayenne, breeding blocks We had a problem with a particular cayenne that was too mild and one year my. farm manager. came by and he said, man did you see the deer really ate riddle that cayenne blocks. Well upon closer notice we found that the deer did us a great favor from a breathing stand point We were looking for hot They ate every mild cayenne plant out there and they left, every hot one It saved us three or four years in breeding

gary, i tell you an interesting story in our cayenne breeding blocks. we had a problem with a particular cayenne that was too mild, and one year my farm manager came by and he said man, did you see the deer really ate riddle that cayenne blocks. well, upon closer notice we found that the deer did us a great favor from a breathing stand point. we were looking for hot. they ate every mild cayenne plant out there and they left every hot one. it saved us three or four years in breeding work.

(Soundbite of laughter)

(soundbite of.

(Soundbite, of,

(soundbite of laughter)

Wow.

wow.

Well, let me tell you another story about this interaction between mammals and chilis. When I worked at the Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum, the great natural history zoo outside at Tucson, we had tremendous bills for bird feed in the aviary out there. And we realized that most of that bird seed wasn't being eaten by the birds at all that we are trying to interpret and present to the public, but that desert mice and house mice, and rats had gotten into the aviary and they were eating most of the food.

well let me tell you another story about this interaction between mammals and chilis, when i worked. at the arizona-sonora. desert museum the. great natural history zoo outside at tucson we had, tremendous bills for bird feed in the aviary out, there, and we realized that, most, of that bird seed wasn't being eaten by the birds at all that we are trying to interpret. and present to; the public but that desert mice and house mice and rats had gotten into the aviary and they were eating most of the,

Well, let, me tell you another story about this interaction between mammals and chilis When I worked at the Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum the great natural history zoo outside at Tucson we had tremendous bills for bird feed in the aviary out there And we realized that. most of that bird seed wasn't. being eaten by the birds at. all that we are trying to interpret. and present to the public, but that desert mice and house mice and rats had gotten into the aviary and they were eating most of the

well, let me tell you another story about this interaction between mammals and chilis. when i worked at the arizona-sonora desert museum, the great natural history zoo outside at tucson, we had tremendous bills for bird feed in the aviary out there. and we realized that most of that bird seed wasn't being eaten by the birds at all that we are trying to interpret and present to the public, but that desert mice and house mice, and rats had gotten into the aviary and they were eating most of the food.

So, we laced the birds seed with food and the next night and for the next week, the rats and mice just disappeared from that aviary and it was like chorus lines of mice and rats back in the desert again trying to find food because they've grown sort of accustomed to the bird seed. And we basically reduced the desert museum bird seed budget by several hundred dollars a month by using the capsaicin to repel the small mammals.

so we laced the birds seed with food and the next night and for the next week the rats and mice just disappeared from that aviary and it was like chorus lines of mice and, rats back, in the desert again trying to find. food because they've grown sort of accustomed to the bird seed and we basically reduced, the desert museum bird seed budget by several hundred dollars a month by using the capsaicin to repel the small

So. we laced the birds, seed with food and the next night and for the next week the rats and mice, just, disappeared from that aviary and it was like chorus lines of mice and. rats back, in the desert again trying to find food because they've grown sort of accustomed to the bird seed And we basically reduced the desert museum bird seed budget by several hundred, dollars a month by using the capsaicin to repel; the small

so, we laced the birds seed with food and the next night and for the next week, the rats and mice just disappeared from that aviary and it was like chorus lines of mice and rats back in the desert again trying to find food because they've grown sort of accustomed to the bird seed. and we basically reduced the desert museum bird seed budget by several hundred dollars a month by using the capsaicin to repel the small mammals.