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RG-50.549.05.0008 | 283 | You know how we got out from Hungary? That you know? Okay. In Vienna I worked for International Rescue Committee. Their office was in New York, and it was there a boarding school in the Vienna woods. A Hungarian teacher was in Vienna from New York, who came there, he had his mother and sister in Hungary, and he wanted to help them to come over. And his idea was to make a boarding school for the Hungarian refugee children. Those were all peasants’ children. The parents got... is 1t on the tape once already? No. The peasants who came over and they got a contract in Santo Domingo, I don’t know how many hundreds, that they get land there and they can work there and they get everything. Food and everything. And somehow, somehow, they couldn’t get in touch with nobody, but somehow the International Rescue Committee find out that they didn’t get nothing. They put them on the fields and they didn’t give them nothing. So they managed to bring them back. So, they brought them back to Vienna and the parents, they put to the two camps. And the children, for the children, who were young, school kids, young, elementary school kids, and there were some bigger ones, they made that boarding school. It was a beautiful, beautiful place and it was like a palace in the woods. And he talked them into it, that he will be head of the school. And because they helped them anyway, the International Rescue Committee. This way they can go to school. So we had seven Hungarian teachers there. And the young ones had school there. And the older ones he took to the village, the first time I saw the... the Volkswagen bus. He had a Volkswagen bus. He took them by bus to German schools. And they were looking for a person for the office, one person does everything. And my... Ilona’s sister-in-law, who was already in Vienna—she’s Ilona, too, both of them—she spoke and was always corresponding, that’s what she did, in German, French, English, Hungarian. And she worked for his very, very... her very, very, very, very rich cousin, who... he was so rich that he lived in an apartment in the middle of Vienna with his wife and two children near the opera house where Franz Josef, Franz Josef’s girl friend lived. And unbelievable, unbelievable, the whole first floor with the same furniture. And he was ina business that time that started, I don’t know what kind of electronics they started to make. And he was a big businessman. He was in Hungary, too, but in time he went to Vienna. And he worked in his office, she worked in his office. And she didn’t get enough, she thought that she didn’t get enough pay, then she went to American Embassy, asked for a job. Because she has those, wonderful, wonderful really, she was wonderful typist, too. And they recommended her to that job for International Rescue Committee. Because the International Rescue Committee was in connection with the... they were connected to the embassy, American Embassy. And she got that job. And when she said it to the cousin that she’s leaving because she can get more money, the cousin said, “I give you the same money.” So then she wanted to stay, because she didn’t have to travel. I had to travel by bus out of Vienna and then from the bus I had to walk in the woods. And in the winter it was terrible, big snow and I had to walk to work. But anyway. So, she said, “Look, go there and tell him that you are my relative, and I have to give two weeks notice. I cannot leave right away, I have to give note and I can fill it in for her.” So right away he says, “Okay.” He gives me a petty cash box with money. That was so funny because I wasn’t used to that kind of a thing. And he told me what 1s the job, that I have to do the payroll. I have to pay the people. I have to, I don’t know. I had to do the bookkeeping, but I never did. I took it home for my husband, because that was his job. I hated bookkeeping. And I never knew how to do it, but he graduated business school. He was a wonderful bookkeeper, so he did the bookkeeping. He didn’t know. But when it came... he didn’t know that I am taking it home. But when it came that I had to go with the German... not accountant, who was he? Gosh... he was an accountant, yes he was an accountant. And I had to give, where, what office, somewhere I had to go at the end of the year. Because it’s the same thing, taxes. He says, “What about?” I couldn’t answer and I told him, “I am not doing it, my husband is doing it.” [Laughing] I told him. He didn’t care about it. But anyway two weeks later when it was two weeks, he says, “Where is Mrs. Schwartz?” Her name... I says, “She decided to stay. If you want to keep me, okay. If not, thank you that you kept me.” She says, “Yes, I want to keep you.” That’s how I got the job and they paid me in American money. I got the... oh, the Germans didn’t want me. They didn’t want to give me the... you had to have a certification that you can work there. I was no citizen. And they wanted the job. So in the kitchen it was a German woman, who was the everything, you know, she was overlooking and buying and everything. She was a German woman, but I was in the office. And then he got it. He got in touch with the Embassy and whatever and I got it. I still have it, the okay that I can work. And I got paid in American money. It was... I don’t know, to me it seemed very much, because it was... I don’t remember how much I got. But we didn’t live in a camp, we didn’t. We lived in an apartment, we lived together with Ilona and her husband. We had together an apartment. And George went to school and she took care of George. And she took back and forth him to school. And then in summer, George came with me there, when it was summer vacation. And they brought out there... they did everything for those kids. Unbelievable. And they brought a German artist there to teach them art in the summer. And George was, my George was in the group. And the first time he painted a head on a piece of wood. A piece of wood what was cut out from a tree. And he painted it, oil painting. And the guy came to me and he says, “Do you know whom you have here?” I says, “What do you mean?” He said, “He’ll be a great artist.” Can you imagine that? And then in New York, too, in elementary... he came to middle school. He didn’t lose nothing. He was in middle school, and there too the teacher came to the house. And he said, “Do you know...” the same words. I said, “What are you talking about?” He says, “You must come to the principal with me.” I went to the principal, and they showed me his work, what is he doing. So, he wanted him to go to an art school in Manhattan, a high school. I don’t know what was the name of it. And we misunderstood it. We thought it was music and art high school. And we took him to music and art high school. And it was, oh God, he was traveling on the subways, and that was, you know, it was so far away. Were you in New York? Yeah? It was near the City University, behind City University, behind Columbia University. And he was traveling for four years, because he had a portfolio and they took him. So he went already to music and art high school. And he was really good. And after that he went to Cooper Union, where they take only 50 kids from 500, he was amongst them. And Cooper Union 1s free, you know, that’s a Foundation. And we just had to pay for the materials, but we didn’t have to pay for his college. 50 took, about 50 from 500 applicants. He was amongst them. So we finished that. He never wanted to go out-of-town college. He was accepted to Penn State University, and I don’t know where else he applied in case he cannot get to Cooper. But he never wanted to leave us. He said, “We didn’t come to America to be separated.” We were three of us, that’s it. My uncle was still alive, but we were three of us. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 284 | Tell me something, did you talk to George about your family history, and what had happened to your family during the Holocaust, and what had happened to you, from the time he was a child? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 285 | He knows. Everything. First of all he knows, he listened to the tape. I always talked about it. And he... sometimes I am mixing it up, that 1t was my husband to whom I talked or to him. But he knows it. He knows it. And I have written down everything, but unfortunately I wrote it Hungarian and he cannot read it anymore, Hungarian. And I really have to write it over in English, though I have tapes and for every kids. I think my whole lifetime is in the tapes, so I don’t know whether it’s important to write it down. But no, Ana gave me a batch that I have to put down the whole family history because they are making family trees, and for me, for my husband, for my husband’s sisters and everything, in the school. She’s asking. They are not aware of it, the grandchildren, just about the Holocaust. He knew my husband, they knew, all of them knew my husband. Not all of them. Ana didn’t know. Anna just always saying that “That chair was grandpa’s and I want to save it.” They didn’t have really... they don’t know. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 286 | When you were in Vienna were you waiting for a visa? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 287 | Okay, that we didn’t know. It was a quota was over. Closed. They let in so many people everywhere, that 1t was no open quota. That’s why we had to stay in Vienna. And we stayed 17 months. After 17 months they give for 1,000 people, and we were amongst the first ones because the International Rescue Committee took us. I had my uncle and he sent an affidavit, but we didn’t need it because they paid for us and they took us, the International Rescue Committee. And we were the very first ones. The interesting thing was that by that time, maybe half a year before, we had a Baroness, a real Baroness Reitzes (ph) was her name, working as a... over the housekeeping. She didn’t do nothing actually. She lived in the middle of Vienna and she had a beautiful apartment, because we were there. She invited us. And she had a car, she came every, she wanted a job. Her husband was Jewish, and he was killed somewhere in labor camp. And she lived alone. She was a fat woman. And she had... her mother lived here, in New York. But she stayed in Vienna and she lived a big life. She had a big dog, I remember. And she had a housekeeper, but she wanted a job. She wanted a job. And she had a car and when she came, she picked me up every day by car and took me home by car, so it was much easier on me. But the interesting thing was that I never told her that I was in concentration camp. I never told her. I somehow, I don’t know, they didn’t see the number and... I don’t know. I never say, never told even that I was Jewish, to her. He knew probably, he knew, of course he knew. Haber was his name. He was a school teacher in New York. That was his idea. And I don’t know what happened to him, and to the school, too. Of course it’s not there anymore. Habdersdorf (ph) was the name of the village. And she, when we got the okay to come, we had to go to Salzburg, to the Embassy. There was the American Embassy was in Salzburg, yes. And so she took us by car, three of us, to Salzburg. It was a beautiful, beautiful road. Unbelievable scenery. And then when we parted, I told her that Iam Jewish. [Laughing.|] She knew that I was in concentration camp. She didn’t know up to that point and she was very upset that I didn’t tell her before that I was in concentration camp. I never told anybody. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 288 | Did you not tell anybody because you were afraid or...? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 289 | I never... I was very uncomfortable in Vienna. When we first, it was May when we got there and beautiful and we had... already it was arranged for us an apartment when we came. My uncle’s brother arranged. And he was a Jewish man, who was saved in Singapore. He went with his son to Singapore. A very interesting man and he lived alone, an elderly man. And he had a pretty nice big apartment. And he had only one room for himself, and he gave two rooms and the kitchen to us. And so we were there and the windows were open. And when I got up in the morning and I heard the German language under the window, I got so crazy. I went crazy. My husband couldn’t get a job. He didn’t speak German. He couldn’t get a job, but they gave him some kind of a... oh, no. When we left I got a letter from the International Rescue Committee that when we arrive we should go to New York, to their main office and show them the letter that I work for them. And we got a counselor there, and we went in and I give him the letter. I didn’t say nowhere, it doesn’t say nowhere that story? I gave him the letter, and he looks at me and says, “I don’t believe it that you don’t remember me.” I says, “I’m so sorry, how do you know me?’ She says, “I was in the school there. They came some, observe the school from New York, the International Rescue Committee. Don’t you remember I was there with my wife and I was in one car with you going back to Vienna?” Then I remembered. I didn’t even think about it, you know, that is somebody. So, he was very nice. He said, “You don’t have to show me the letter, I know what you did there, but I must tell you, you did there everything. But in America you have to do one thing, and good, not so many things what you did there in the office. I’m going to send you to NCR school.” When I heard bookkeeping, I just didn’t... you know? I didn’t say no, but I didn’t go, when he told me to go to. What happened, I didn’t know that, I got pregnant. And I know it’s that I got pregnant in Salzburg. I remember it, but I didn’t know that I got pregnant. I didn’t know. I had my period every month and I didn’t know that I’m pregnant. And three months later I started to bleed like terribly and I didn’t know that I’m pregnant. And I went to the doctor and he said you are pregnant, but you are going to have a miscarriage, because you have fibroids. So, I didn’t go to International School. And he called me on the phone and he called me when I came back from the hospital. And I says, “I was sick, and that’s what happened. I had a miscarriage,” I told him. “And I couldn’t go.” But when I was better, they kept me, I was in the fourth month, and they kept me there five days. They thought every day the babies, four months. I was dying there. I lost so much blood. But then finally they did it. And they said that “You have to come back in six weeks and you have to have a hysterectomy.” And six weeks later I went back and they said, “No you don’t need it. It was so big, everything because you were pregnant. You don’t need a hysterectomy.” So then I went back. When he called me, I said, “No, I can’t go now.” So he sent me to NCR school. NCR was not the cashier machines, they were NCR machines, the cashier, you know. They had big, big bookkeeping machines, before the computers. Big bars, rechangeable that you could do everything. You could go, big papers with monthly statements and you could go checks. Other side I could put the vendor’s card and put down to whom I am paying. And I went there and I learned it in one week. Oh, he asked whether I can type, I says, “Yes, I can type.” So they taught me for the machine in one week and they gave me a job after one week. I didn’t have any experience, but I knew how to do the machine. And they gave me a job in a publishing company in Manhattan, Columbus Square or Circle or what was it. And I had to travel from Brooklyn. I was so sick on the subways that I was more in the doctor’s office than at home. It was terrible. I cannot, even in Hungary what is above the ground I was always standing outside on the air. I couldn’t travel. And that was underground and was going on in New York subways. It was terrible. And that was a publisher, who made some kind of a... I don’t know whether it was comic books or what it was, Ihave no... Publishing company. And they were two machines, it was a receivable and a payable. And I was the payable and the other guy, a guy, a young guy, who was very helpful. And he tried to teach me, because I knew the machine, but I didn’t have experience. I didn’t have the speed, first of all, and if I made a mistake, I didn’t know how to correct it. And he was very, very helpful. But the comptroller... not comptroller, liked me very much, the comptroller, but the bookkeeper, who was from Massachusetts, I didn’t know from my life. I didn’t know where is Massachusetts [laughing], and he was so proud of it, that he 1s from Massachusetts. He was amisery. And he was a Jew. And he made my life, he got back the checks from the bank, what I was typing. And he found mistakes. He was so miserable and he said to me, “You just came. You are a refugee, and you right away have to sit in an office?” Can you imagine? A Jew. I was very miserable. It was 60 dollars a week, what was a nice pay at that time. And they gave me even commissions. I don’t know what was it, from sale or something. I was there for three months and I was constantly looking for another job. And one day from New York Times, I see a job, Brooklyn Jewish Hospital is looking for an NCR operator. They were on strike because they were already... the half, not the office, but the kitchen and the... I don’t know, cleaning people, they were in the Union. And they had a strike. The office, too, because nobody could, they had a black man working years on that machine, and he left because he got a better job under the strike. And they didn’t have no one for three months. They had young girls, but they left. Young people don’t want to sit and work. You had to sit at the machine. So, when I saw that, it was in walking distance from us, the hospital, and I had to pass by, every morning, my uncle’s pharmacy. So he came always earlier to open that he should see me in the morning when I go to work or when I go home, because it was in a walking distance. And I never thought that I stay there. And the comptroller wasn’t... was out of town or I don’t know where. He wasn’t there when I got the job. So the personnel, she gave me the job. And I was working, it was a big office and we had two machines like there, accounts payable and receivable. The receivable was another woman working. And the comptroller came back and he called me to the office and he greeted me and he was very, very nice to me. And he said, “I must tell you one thing, if you do the job by Christmas...” they were behind three months with bills. Well I saw those bins with bills. “If you do it by Christmas, the job is yours.” So I started to do it and I started to be very fast on the machine, very fast. And I did it day before Christmas. So, but women there, they were Jewish women, they were very jealous. One of them, first of all I never spoke about concentration camp. Never. It was mixed, they were non-Jews and Jews there, and I never spoke to them about it. And one woman, a Jewish woman, she said to me, “Why did you come to America?” This way. I says, “What do you mean?” He says, “Why, the communism is not enough good?” I says, “Maybe it is good for you because you have a house, every child of you has a car and you have a nice job. You could change place with me,” I said. [Laughing] Can you imagine that? She was a Leftist. And she didn’t work on a machine, but she worked in the office. That time it was everything together, the billing. We had a big, big office and machine and no machine. The machines were in the back. And then there was another woman, who was like that man there, who was controlling me and she was miserable, too. If I made a mistake, she was miserable. And I was crying, and I went to the Comptroller and I says, “I just don’t know what to do.” She says, “What’s happening?” And I told him what’s happening. He says, “You come to me, you don’t go to them. If you don’t know something you come to me.” It was aman. And from then on, I was all right. I had trouble because I had to answer the telephone. I was payable and the vendors were calling me. So, in the beginning I had big trouble. I spoke English, but I spoke English, not Yankee. Because I learned English from an English teacher in Czechoslovakia when it was Hungary already and we thought that we come to America. We had private lessons. And my sister was very, very smart. And we were reading Anna Karenina in English and... I told you, no? That story. So we learned English. And we didn’t understand each other on the phone, you know? [Laughing.] So in the beginning I had problems, but then it was okay. Even the Americans came to me, how do you spell that, how do you spell this? You know? That was the end. But I never thought that I stay there 27 years. I stayed there 27 years. I went through many comptrollers. [Laughing.| He left, but he was a long time there. But he left. And then one day the Personnel Director comes in, closes the door and he says, “Attention, please.” Everybody looks up, “What is it?” He says, “I must announce it, that from yesterday on, everybody is in the Union.” So I didn’t know what does it mean and why is it good or bad, just in the Union. Fine. I don’t care where we are. And it was an unbelievable advantage. I was the highest paid because of the machines. So, if somebody got three dollars pay and raise, I got five dollars raise. From 60 dollars in one year, because I started with 60 back there in the other place, I went up to 125 dollars because of the Union. And thank God, because of the Union, I have a pension today from the Union, and I have free medication. My medication bills are 4,000 dollars a year, because they are sending me the company’s and that’s another pension, 4,000 dollars. And I am getting pension. And because... oh, that’s the story. Before I... a year before I left, it was another strike. And I didn’t go to work, because I was afraid. You know? Crossing the picket lines. But I never picketed, never. I was in the country for a month, it was a month strike. And I was in touch with them. I called always Personnel. Personnel was begging me, “Please come back.” Because by that time we had only one machine, it was no more receivable because they gave it out to computers. So, I was the only machine and the only person who knew the machine. They were typing checks, the people who were non-Union. And it was horrible, horrible, they were behind, and terrible. And he was begging me, “Please come back. Come back, don’t worry, nobody is picketing anymore.” And they were in the country and one day he calls me and he says, “Come back. We are going to send you a Black girl down for you if you are afraid. We are watching you when you when you are coming. And please come back.” And they went to the country and they dropped me off and they are watching it whether I go in. It was no picketing. It was no picket line anymore. And I went in and then everybody was shocked, because nobody knew that I am not in the Union. I couldn’t have, I couldn’t, I don’t know. It was... they just didn’t believe it that I am, you know, in the Union, in the Union, the people. Because that was a job what was a confidential job, with the payroll and everything. So they didn’t believe it that I am in the Union. So, what happened, the person... End of Tape 5, Side A Tape 5, Side B | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 290 | ... you get out from the Union. They didn’t know that I am close to retirement. That I wanted to retire. I didn’t know either. If you get out from a union and you get the hospital pension and you get medication from the hospital, doctors from the hospital and they give you 25,000 a year. I said, “How do I do that?” He says, “I’m going to send a telegram,” because the Union was threatening us, that if we are still on strike they are not going to cover us medically. Because they had very good medical coverage. Every doctor wanted you if you were in the Union. I says, “I cannot live without medical coverage.” She says, “Okay so I’m going to tell them that you cannot be without coverage and you are out from the Union.” So, for one year, I went out from the Union. Then after a year, I wanted to retire. I worked one year more than 65, 66 I was when I left. And I says, “Can you put me back to the Union?” Because they would have to give me a pension from the hospital if I am not in the Union. So the personnel, the secretary, his secretary, arranged it that they paid me for one year dues, for one year everything, because they paid for medical for us, the Union. And they paid for pension. I paid the bills, hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Union. I was paying them. And they said that it was a mistake and they got me back to the Union. Can you imagine? It was such a luck because I wouldn’t have the Union. I wouldn’t have the pension because they say to me... I’m talking to some people from the hospital, “It’s terrible, it’s almost bankrupt.” We were bankrupt after ten years, we went to Chapter 11. I went to, through with them, voided thousands and thousands of checks and everything after ten years. And they had to merge with another hospital. It was St. Joseph... St. John’s. Here is St. Joseph’s. St. John’s Hospital. And then we got more, we were the main hospital. We got more employees. It was 3,000 people. And we paid everything. We paid they bills, too, for medication, for the pharmacy tech, everything. It was everything through us. So it was a very big job. But I had a separate room because the machine was very noisy. And I was alone in the room, so that was very good. And they always wanted me to be a manager and I didn’t want to because I knew that I am out of the Union if I am a manager. I says, “I do the job. I am not a manager.” So, I was lucky. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 291 | Let me ask you a couple of questions before we go on because we skipped your journey to the United States. | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 292 | My journey to the United States? We came in 1958. The International Rescue Committee from Salzburg brought us... Oh. That was a very terrible thing, too. They send us for x-rays, chest x- rays before you come. And they didn’t want me let through. I’m sorry, stomach. They didn’t let me go through because they said that I have something on my lungs. It turned out that I had pneumonia in the camp and I didn’t know about it and it showed. And they said, “They can go, your husband and your son, but you have to go on another plane, because it’s something.” I went crazy. They didn’t want to go without me, but luckily they called me for a second x-ray and that was all well. That was okay, so we came together. But we came on a military plane. I don’t know how many hundreds of people, and so uncomfortable, and we were sitting in the last row, near the toilet. And they were only two seats, so we always changed. One sits with George and then the other one was sitting alone, you know? But we were sitting in the same row, but between us the aisle. Very uncomfortable, very. I think we were 24 hours in the air. It was just terrible. And we stopped at Newfoundland, Newfoundland. And then they give us there the first meal, a dinner. And from that I got so sick, that the whole journey to New York, it was just unbelievable. I was so sick. But I was pregnant and I didn’t know, maybe that’s why I was sick from the food. So when we arrived, it was that time Kennedy Airport... no, La Guardia, ’m sorry. La Guardia, not Kennedy Airport. And we saw my uncle and my aunt up there waiting for us and waving. And we saw the first Black man in our lives. They had a postman, who delivered the mail and he had a car. And my uncle, he came always... he had like here in pharmacies they have a counter where you have food, too. It was so strange to me, because there is no such a thing in Europe in pharmacies. Pharmacy is pharmacy. And he was telling him that if he has a free day, that he is going to pay him take him to the airport and wait for us. So he was a fat man and it was the first time in my life that I saw a black man. And he was taking us home to my uncle. They lived not very far from the pharmacy. Though the house was theirs, the pharmacy was one day apartments. They lived in a separate apartment. And he had a partner because his diploma... I have still his Russian diploma, was not certificated, so he had an American partner. Very nice people. They lived in the house, in the upstairs in the house. They were very good friends. They didn’t have children, and they didn’t have children. They were very good friends. He was a very nice man. And so we were three days in our uncle’s house. It was only, what they had, the living room is a big, big. Bedroom they had, and a living room, a kitchen. It was a private, private house. I don’t know, bathroom, nothing else. They had two in the house, two apartments in the house, the landlord and them. And they rented for us, in that kind of a house, but in another street, an apartment, upstairs. But it was small. It was just a bedroom and a little living room and at the end of the living room was the kitchen, a small kitchen with a small frigidaire. So, that was our first apartment. And that was our street where George went to middle school. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 293 | What were your first impressions of the United States, and what did you expect? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 294 | I was very upset when they showed us pictures from New York at the Embassy. I says, “My God, stones and stones and stones. It’s no green nowhere.” They showed us New York in the embassy. It was very frightening. When I went very, very first time to Manhattan, I couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t look up because I was dizzy from the tall houses, but I loved it. I love New York and that’s the place where I lived most of my life. When I added up one day where I lived the longest, 1t was New York. And I love New York. I loved it. We lived in Brooklyn, near the ocean. I love the ocean. I love the ocean in the Spring and in the Fall. I don’t like to go in because the mob was there, it’s unbelievable. But to walk on the Boardwalk, the sundown, the sunset, it was so relaxing. It was wonderful. And they were benches, you know, and we were sitting on it. It was unbelievable, and I missed it here very, very much when I came here. When I came here I knew Lexington, because he’s here for ‘79, 1979. And three times a year I was here. I had four weeks vacation, three weeks here and one week in the country house, that country house in the Catskills. My husband loved it because he loved the country. He loved it. He loved it here. When he saw the horses, and we wanted to retire here. We came here and always looking for places where... we wanted a duplex. We always thought it’s enough, we are together and separate. But for them it was never enough, the duplex. For us it would be, they are small apartments. But anyway it didn’t come to it, because he died. But he wanted to live here. I loved the big cities. I never lived in a small town, because where we lived in Czechoslovakia, that was the capital of that part. And Budapest is beautiful. So I couldn’t imagine to live... and they was always questioning where is the city here? Where is the city? [Laughing | | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 295 | You mean in Lexington? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 296 | Here, yeah, but you go to... then they showed me downtown. I says, “Oh my God.” [Laughing. ] Okay. But I knew where I’m coming. But still when I came here really, that this is now real, I thought I go to the nuthouse. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 297 | When you came to Lexington? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 298 | When I moved here. When I moved here in November of ‘86. And I was very upset. I was homesick. So the first year, they went every year back to the summer house. Every year they spent there and I went with them. It’s half of mine, from the summer house. My husband bought it for me and them, half. But we paid their half with cash because they didn’t have money at that time, they just started teaching and they gave us the credit. So we paid they half cash and they paid the other half out in ten years. And it’s in the Catskills. It’s a beautiful place. It’s a small house, but it was very nice. We have two bedrooms and in between us was the bathroom and the living room and upstairs it was a big, big attic and it was made up for a bedroom, but we didn’t need it. Because we were four only. They didn’t have even children at that time, ‘73. And even in the winter we went up. It was beautiful. It was very close to all the skiing place, all the people. It’s very nice. And he wouldn’t sell it, because he’s very sentimental, because Daddy loved it. He would never sell it, and he loves it because he is away from here and he is going up four or five, it’s three acres, hill. And underneath there is a big, big library, that’s our neighbor. It’s a library for four, five towns, five little towns. A big library. And... | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 299 | Let me ask you something before we go on. You described how when you arrived in New York and there were some people who, some even Jewish people who were not very respectful of you. Did you find that to be common? That American Jews did not treat you respectfully because you were a refugee and because you were a survivor? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 300 | Yes, correct. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 301 | Can you say more about that? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 302 | Especially here, here never were refugees in Lexington. Not Jewish, or Jewish or not Jewish. They never were refugees here in Lexington. And then up to today, I must tell you. You are friends with the people in the synagogue. They are not real friends. You are friends in the synagogue. There we socialize, but they wouldn’t invite you to their houses, even here. Yes. And what I found out, I found out that almost everybody’s fathers came from Europe. Those people who are here 30 years or whatever... everybody’s, but still they are Lexingtonians. And it’s very interesting. I don’t care, because just now I have only two friends, a lawyer and his wife, and from Winchester, Sylvia. But she is again from the synagogue, because I don’t go to Winchester. And I went when her husband died, I went to see her a few times, but otherwise I’m not driving outside of Lexington. I’m glad I find my way here. And so, she calls when they know that I’m sick. But I really don’t have friends here. And another couple, who is a Polish couple, the Habers. You’ve were there? No. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 303 | I’ve spoken with them. | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 304 | But they are very nice. Last week she made a party, it was her birthday. And I couldn’t make it, I was so sick. Because in the beginning we made, we went to each other’s houses and we had a book club. Everybody read the same book and we discussed it, book discussion club. That woman died. That was a pharmacologist’s wife. And since she died, I am not going. I am not going. I could. It’s the Haddassah. You know what’s the Haddassah? They have it, but I don’t like those people because they... I don’t like them because they went away from the synagogue and they have their own congregation, the Havarah. And I cannot see that. And in the beginning, when George moved here, they were so friendly to him. They wanted to get him there. And he would never go. Because they have here a rabbi, who was blind. He was a very nice man. He died from diabetes, fairly young. And he... I don’t like those people, because when they found out that George doesn’t want to belong there, it was finished with the friendship. You know? But when they come sometimes to the synagogue or whatever, they are nice to you. You know? But they have their own clique, only Havarah, but they are none of them from Lexington. They are everybody from somewheres else. And they feel that they are together and they help each other. And it’s a bigger, there are 80 families now there. They are always bigger and bigger. They don’t have a place where to pray. They pray, I think, once a month or twice a month, I don’t know and always someplace else. In the Christian church basement or someplace. They don’t have a steady place. Sometimes they pray here, too. Pray here in the club. But I really don’t have no friends. Besides the three people and the librarian from the synagogue, she’s very nice. But we don’t go to each other’s houses. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 305 | So, you think that people are prejudiced? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 306 | Yes, they are, they are, definitely they are. They are very nice to you in the synagogue, you know. But nobody would say, “Come.” And the rabbi was different. We were always over. I was always invited, because they used to go too, and I didn’t want to go with them, like for Passover, to Indiana. His best friend is there, from New York, best friend. And I didn’t want to go, so I was always invited to Rabbi. Sometimes with Ilona when she was here for Passover, but not to other people’s. So itis. They are. I think they are. It’s unbelievable. In the beginning we had here big parties, because they came here, like guest speakers and they wanted to take them to homes. I don’t know why they choosed us about two or three times and they met here. And we contributed. We made the cookies and cakes and everything. And one couple came, he is very wealthy. And he’s a nice guy. He’s nice to me, very nice, in the synagogue, but they came and they looked around. And I see that they are looking around themselves, you know? They were away from the other people. And I said, “Do you want to see the house?” And she says, “Oh, you are acting like it would be your house,” she said, he said. I says, “Yes, my money’s in that house.” They thought that it’s... because it’s on their name. Me idiot. [Laughing] My friend, I have a pediatrician friend, a woman. She doesn’t know up to today, that it’s . She said to me, “Don’t you dare to do it, that it’s not only your name and George’s. You made the money for it.” That I put it on their name. I trusted them. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 307 | Tell me something else, have you... | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 308 | And that’s what I think, you know? That’s how they are. That’s the first and last time they were here, because it was a party for somebody. And on the rabbi’s wife’s birthday, not this rabbi. Another. We had a rabbi who 1s from England. Rabbi Smith (ph), he’s still here. He works for the State Department now. Because they... he was three years rabbi. He couldn’t handle children. He doesn’t have children. And he is so smart that he is too smart for them. Very, very smart man. So... | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 309 | Coming back to when you first arrived in America and you’re getting settled, did you consider yourself...what did it take to become an American for you? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 310 | No, no, no, no. I right away, when we were, right away, five years later, we were citizens, because you have to be five years. No, I felt at home. I felt at home, and we had our friends. We had our friends. We had a lot of friends. We had friends, Hungarian friends, of course, they were Hungarians. Some of them came here from, from Australia and then we met here. And then we an association, Budapest. Every city had an association and we got once a month together in Manhattan. They had five o’clock teas. And of course, the end was always the Holocaust, talking about the Holocaust, because almost all of them were in Holocaust, you know, there. So, I felt very well. I felt... yeah. The last six months when I left, when I was alone there, my husband died, I was there four more years alone and then they... ... “George, when are you coming?” I met a woman, who was my age exactly and he worked... I told you that too? He worked, she worked in Manhattan in the jewelry section. She was an American. And she didn’t live very far from us. And I went every week, I went to the theater. I said it? I told that story? But we had private buses and they went certain hours, because I didn’t want to go by train. And I didn’t drive to Manhattan. She was going to the same beauty parlor as me and she was sitting near me. And one day I hear that she’s talking about it that she was in Alaska and whatever, but still I didn’t talk to her. Maybe I am not friendly. I am not talking to people whom I don’t know, but I overheard everything. But she noticed... yeah, I go to the bus and I am waiting on the bus. And she lived in that street where the bus stop was and she went to Manhattan, too. And she said to me, “Where are you going?” It’s first time she spoke to me. I said, “I am going to the theater.” She says, “Alone?” I says, “Yes, my husband died and I’m going alone.” She said, “My God, would you get me a ticket, too? For next performance?” I says, “Why not?” She said, “Because I am alone, too. My husband died.” And I said, “Where do I leave the ticket?” She said, leave it with my beautician when you go the beauty parlor. And I left the ticket, and from then on we became good friends. And every week we went together, but not by bus. I was driving. I know how to drive, but she didn’t have a car. She knew where to go, but I knew how. And we went by car. And there was the parking under the theater and it paid. Because it was $3.50 a trip, you know, it’s seven dollars, fourteen from ten dollars, parking under the theater. And after that we went always to Marriott Hotel, up, they had a wonderful, wonderful, like Viennese Bakery, a garden restaurant, where they had coffee and cake. After that we went up, and we were very good friends, but it was only six months because six months later I came. And her son was a manager of the Days Inn Hotel in Manhattan. And when we went, first time when we went to the country, first year, and I was very, very homesick for New York and I was depressed and I was crying in the country. And George said, “Do you want to go to the city?” I says “Yes.” So, I called her up and her son gave us a suite for 25 dollars and we stayed there for three days. And he went to the museum right away. And I went, I think, with Laura to Fifth Avenue. I don’t know. And I think that Ilona went with him, yes, to the museum. And we stayed there three days. And then again, one time I went only with Ilona. I stayed there a week. And I included her always, the woman for the theater, and they gave us a dinner there, for the... I remember before we left and she was there too, you know, in the hotel. And we had a very good time, but it was only for six months. I met her late. I mean I saw her, but I didn’t know who she was and because I was there four years alone. And she was alone four years, too. And she was retiring, too, the same time. She worked 20, 27 years, too. Can you imagine that? So it was late. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 311 | Tell me something else, you mentioned early on that soon after you arrived you saw your first black man. And that was near the time, just around the time when the Civil Rights movement was starting. But tell me, were you surprised about the way that blacks were treated in this country? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 312 | In New York weren’t treated bad, but here, when he came here, the blacks were sitting in the back of the bus. That I couldn’t imagine. It was no sales ladies black, no one. I didn’t see no one black, they were all separate. It was unbelievable. And what was the most unbelievable thing, everybody wore sneakers. In the subways, too. And we said, “They don’t have shoes here? Everybody’s wearing sneakers.” We couldn’t understand that. Everybody in the morning. And then we saw people who went to bigger offices to work. They had they shoes in they bags, because if you have to wait for a bus and, many times I was waiting with high heels and I said, “My God, I wish I would wear sneakers,” you know? When I went to the city I was wearing always high heels. Because in the office I was wearing always high heels. And that was the custom. We couldn’t understand. That was the most unbelievable thing when we went on the subway that everybody is in white sneakers. We didn’t know about the segregation. We didn’t know in Hungary about it. We didn’t, we didn’t have blacks. We didn’t. Oh, I’m sorry. I saw the first black man in the English Army. I saw a soldier. And it wasn’t even... I don’t know whether he was in the English army. It’s interesting, they were taking us by jeep to Nuremberg from Bergen-Belsen. And another jeep came and they were throwing to us from their jeep, oranges. And it was a black soldier. That was the first one. Not the first one. Yes, that was the first one. But I just didn’t notice it, color, color... it was no difference to me. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 313 | I just wondered if, because you had come from a situation where the discrimination was, was, had such an effect. Whether you expected something different in this country? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 314 | I didn’t know what to expect here. I knew just I have an uncle here. I didn’t know what to expect. I didn’t. The very, very bad experience was the very, very first time when we had a bigger apartment and George with the school was supposed to go to the Shakespearean play with the school to Connecticut. And he comes home and he had a friend, who was a very tough guy. He was Hungarian. And he was with him, probably, I don’t know. And a black boy started to hit George. And he hit him in his mouth. He lost a tooth and he was bleeding and he couldn’t go to the show. That was the very, very first time when I said, “Oh my God, what 1s going on here?” In Brooklyn. It was on the corner where we lived. So then I said, “Oh my God.” You know? I didn’t know nothing about it. It was a very strange thing. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 315 | Did you understand the reason why it had happened? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 316 | I think that they wanted the other boy, because he was a very tough guy. He was wearing always boots and he had a knife in his boot. So, he was his bodyguard. [Laughing.] After that when it happened, he was always with him. Because I didn’t know why it happened, because he is white. I didn’t know. But then I knew, you know, when it happened then I knew that maybe... but maybe they knew the other guy and they wanted him and they... he was weak. I don’t know. I don’t know, but I felt terrible. I felt terrible. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 317 | Did you feel a little bit, was it, did you feel a little bit of prejudice after that? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 318 | No, I didn’t. I tell you why, because I worked with blacks in the hospital. My best friends were blacks, who are still calling me. But not New Yorkers. They were from Barbados, from Jamaica and they are different. They are entirely different. New York blacks are no good. They are no good. They are. They are no good. But those people, I don’t know whether they are more educated or why, but they were entirely different. And we had... oh, that story is interesting, too. We had New Yorkers, too, there and they hated each other. The Jamaicans and the Barbadians, they hated the New York blacks in the office. In the big accounting office. So it was a big hatred between them. And oh gosh, one had two daughters and one daughter married a New Yorker. She is divorced. She divorced him. But they were very against him. They feel that they are more. They are. They are more educated. And one of them was going to school in England and her husband was an engineer. And unfortunately they are different. I didn’t come across a New Yorker black who was so nice as those. You know what I mean? I’m not talking about Harlem. I don’t know. But what was around me, that was my opinion and that’s how I felt, that they were different. End of Tape 5, Side B Tape 6, Side A | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 319 | This is tape number six, side A of an interview with Emilie Szekely. When did you start speaking about your Holocaust experiences? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 320 | In 1986, when I came here, and I went to the beauty parlor and I had a short sleeve shirt on and the beautician said, “What is that?” I said, “This is the Holocaust.” “The Holocaust? My daughter was just taught in Tates Creek High that she shouldn’t believe it. That they shouldn’t believe it, it was a Holocaust. It was made up by the Jews.” I thought I faint. I says, “What?” She says, “Yes, she was just taught. And I very surprised to see you. I never saw a survivor.” Then a woman came here—I came here the first time alone when we didn’t move in yet and they had blinds made in the family room—and she was from McAlpins. And I’m sitting in the chair and she sits near me, this way, and she noticed the number. And she jumps up and she starts to scream. I says, “What happened?” She says, “I never saw somebody, I never saw nobody, who came back from there. Let me have a, let me, can I make a prayer for you?” And she kneels down and she starts to pray like I would come, you know, from somewhere, an alien. It was unbelievable experience. But after that when it happened, that she said they were teaching it. She was teaching in Nicholasville, Laura, at that time. And I told her, I says, “Where did you bring me? That’s what they teach here? I never heard it in my life.” And she was very upset, and she spoke to the high school teacher there and she said, “How about if she would come to school?” I says, “I cannot talk. I never spoke in my life.” She says, “How about if I come to your house?” She said. So she came, and I spoke to the microphone for two hours. And from that moment on, she [phone rings] ...She came from the high school. I spoke two hours in the microphone. And it was no stop. They came to the house and they were begging me to come to speak in the high school there. And it was a pretty bad experience, the very first one. That was the first ttme when I spoke. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 321 | What was the high school where you spoke? Which one? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 322 | I don’t know whether, yeah, they have more. I spoke at other high schools, too. It was a regular high school, but I spoke at the high school there, when there were women who were pregnant and they were going to school. That was another high school, but that was regular high school. I don’t know what was the name, in Nicholasville, Jessamine County. And they were, it was a man teacher, who was very, very nice. He was a history teacher. But it was a... they sat like around the wall in circle they put the chairs. And on that side, on the left side, 1t was a circle with about ten boys, who were shaved, their heads and they didn’t look at me. Because at that time I was beginner speaker and I started to speak and I asked them who believes in the Holocaust, that the Holocaust is true, they should put their hands up. They didn’t. And the whole time I was talking and they didn’t look at me. So when I finished, and I was pretty nervous, that was my first speech. But it was good because the teacher was absolutely wonderful. And he was embracing me and “Thank God for you, that you are here,” and that kind of a thing. And I says, “And do you know whom you have here?” He says, “Unfortunately, yes.” So, that was a bad experience for me, you know, that there are skinheads there. It was in Nicholasville. But then I spoke many, many times in Nicholasville middle school, and when Laura was teaching, that was middle school. And that high school. I don’t know what was the name of that high school. They were all girls, women, I mean, and one of them came to me. They came after me and she said that, “I thank you very much for coming because my father is German and he is telling an entirely different story and I knew that it’s something wrong how he is telling it to us.” So I had that kind of an experiences. Then it was non-stop, one school after the other. Then it was in Paris, Kentucky. In Paris, Kentucky it was a professor in education. That was George’s department, education, I mean he was in Art and Education, two appointments. A very nice, very nice professor. And he had student teachers in Paris, Kentucky, and he took me to Paris, Kentucky. And some, they took videos there that day, but it was a very big wind and the windows were open. They didn’t have air conditioners. And the videos didn’t came out. Well, so he took me the second time and he took with him a professional videotaper from U.K. And I didn’t know nothing, who else is there, but I saw that they are women there and they are taking pictures, too, from me. And they are writing. I had no idea that the paper is there. He called The Herald. And that was the first time when I was in The Herald-Leader. And when I was in The Herald Leader, it was no stop. People were calling me. Schools were calling me, and I can tell you that I spoke in every school in Lexington, not once, because I spoke 160 times already. Because usually I, they put together six, seven, eight grades usually in the auditort1um. And if the next bunch of kids comes, they call me back again. And in every high school I spoke, too. In every high school. I spoke twice in Dunbar. In... what is that station? Bryan Station, Bryan Station, they were very nice there. I spoke in Lafayette. Now I have to go again. Because I spoke when Ilona was there and still the teacher is there and now Anna has the teacher. And she, he was asking whether your grandmother still does it. And Henry Clay, I spoke at Henry Clay. Twice I spoke already at the Community College. Three times at U.K. I spoke in the nurse’s department, Psychiatric Nurses’ department. And then the other was the Middle Eastern studies, both of them twice. And... | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 323 | Have people been receptive mostly? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 324 | Very nice. Very, very nice. Very nice. Very, very nice. I cannot tell you, I have a whole drawer, from letters, what they are doing, Montessori school. All the Montessori schools I spoke. There are three of them here. I spoke in Scapa, I don’t know how many times. And what they do, the Scapa... oh, I spoke, lately I spoke in the Adult Education at night. That’s education at U.K. I have a series for the concerts, five tickets for the U.K... not U.K., concerts what they are doing, gosh, five a year. Five concerts, from all over the world they are coming. And the teacher, the professor that sits in front of me, she is a woman, but is George’s colleague actually. So, she never... I don’t know, she was always afraid to ask me and we always talk to her. And a few weeks ago, it was a concert and she turns around and she says, “Are you alright?” And I says, “Yes, why?” I wasn’t all right the week before and George was there with Ana. And she says, “Oh, can I ask you to talk?” I says, “Of course.” And one of her students, they are all for Masters, teachers who are going for Masters. And one of her students is from Scapa. And she’s her best friend. And that woman, she is a pastor’s wife from the Lutheran church, Mrs. Gross. Wonderful, wonderful person. I don’t know how many times I spoke. And what she is doing, she binds the books what the children are writing. The letters, and it’s unbelievable what they are doing. And flowers they are giving me. And that professor, Dr. Backner, I don’t know how many times he took me. He was, unfortunately he didn’t get tenure at U.K. because he wasn’t writing. But he said he didn’t want the tenure. He was there six years. And then he was principal in Georgetown. And he called me there, too. I spoke in Georgetown for him, and he picks me up, and he takes me home, and in-between he takes me to a restaurant when he takes me home, to the nicest restaurants to eat. And it was an opening here in Lexington, what’s it, Lexington Traditional. It’s on Nicholasville Road. And I asked him when he was in... because I spoke there two or three times and I knew it was an opening there for principal. And I ask him in Georgetown whether he wants to come to Lexington. He lives here. And he says, “Why?” I says, “Because I know it’s, I don’t know the principal who is there, just in between.” He lives, she was, he was Laura’s principal in Jesse Clark. He lives in our corner. And I said, “Is Mr. Mossgrave there?” And he says, “Oh, not a bad idea.” And then I spoke to Mossgrave. I says, “Would you please call him because you are here only for a few months.” [Laughing] Because he is retired, and he works a few months only because of the Social Security probably. And he got the job. He got the job. So I already spoke twice to him here, in . And last time his wife picked me up, and we met in the restaurant, Chaise (ph). And he came there from school and his daughter came, too. It’s very interesting. His daughter was for a whole year in Belarus. Very interesting. She said, she loves the people there and she wants to learn the language. Very nice person. And both of them came to listen to me, too. The wife and the daughter, last time that I spoke. It was the end of the year. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 325 | When you started speaking about your experiences, did you find that memories were coming up that you hadn’t thought of? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 326 | Everything is coming up. I don’t... if they give me enough time, I am telling them from beginning to the end, everything. Memories are always with me, not coming up, they are always with me. And I don’t try to forget it. Sylvia tries to forget it. That’s the difference between me and Sylvia. And it’s a big difference, because she married an American man and she never had to talk about it. So it’s a big difference. But she doesn’t want to talk about it with me either. And she was in the same place. She was in Bergen-Belsen. And she doesn’t want, she says what she has left over, life, she wants to make it happy. I cannot forget it. I cannot erase it that they killed my parents. I can’t. And the six million people and everybody and big, big family from my grandmother’s side. I can’t. I can’t forget it, no one day. And I am dreaming about it, especially when I’m talking, I’m dreaming. I said once to my heart doctor, I says, “I just don’t know, I cannot sleep. Maybe I shouldn’t talk anymore.” He said, “You just take your pill and talk.” [Laughing] That’s what he said. They are so funny the doctors. They have my pictures, when I am in the newspaper, they put it in they files. So, when they bring the files, here you are. It’s interesting. Yeah, lot of them. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 327 | You talked earlier, I guess it was the last time, about how you had such guilt feelings after your parents and your sister were killed. And I wondered if you ever got over guilt feelings? If you ever got over that? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 328 | I, look, I have a guilt feeling always about my sister, yes. How 1s it that she said... it’s fate. I don’t know. I have to come... I have to forget that guilt feeling, because I wasn’t there. I wasn’t there. And I am sure that if I would be there, I would do the same thing. Because she had an opportunity to escape and she says, “I go where my mother goes.” And if I would be there, I would do the same thing. I wasn’t there. It was a coincidence. I had problem with my rheumatic fever that year and I had to go... my mother send me first. Every summer we spent there in Budapest at my grandmother’s house. And I took every year a cure for my rheumatic fever. When it was nothing wrong with me. The doctor said we should do it that it shouldn’t come back. And I had a doctor there, in one of those baths that they have. It’s wonderful waters they have. And he gave me a cure for three weeks. And it wasn’t my fault that I wasn’t there. I was thinking about it many times. That I should make, I shouldn’t be so guilty because it wasn’t my fault. First time in my life, I was 21, and first time in my life I was traveling alone. It was 400 miles on the train to my grandmother. Because I finished school and my sister was still in school, otherwise we would go together. The year before, Christmas, we went together with my sister. So it wasn’t my fault. It was fate. It was fate. And when I was telling it in some schools and I says... children were asking me, how come that you survive? I says, “That’s the only question I cannot answer you.” And the principal, not principal, the Superintendent, I didn’t know that he was there. He said... he was sitting in the corner. “I tell you why,” he said. “That she should spread it to the people.” I says, “Thank you very much for helping me out, but I think my sister could have spread it, too. So, it is nice that you think about it this way.” | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 329 | Do you feel safe and at home in this country, and in Lexington? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 330 | I’m every year alone in this house, now I don’t go with them in the country. And this year I am thinking about it. That they really shouldn’t do it, that they leave me alone here. I went with them every year, but I don’t know how many years now, about four years, I don’t go because Laura wants to be alone with George. And he says we are here together the whole year, we are together. Though it’s my house, I cannot go there. So, I went there three years ago. She went to Hungary with Ana, because she was never in Hungary, Ana. She was never in Hungary. Ilona was with me. I took Ilona. ’89, after her, that was my Bat Mitzvah present to her in ‘89. I took her to Hungary for three weeks and one week in Vienna we were. And so, she went with Ana. I gave Ana her Bat Mitzvah present, the ticket, to go to Hungary. So Laura had a free ticket that she’s collecting, you know, the free flights. So they went to Hungary. And then I went for three weeks to the country and stayed with George. I had a great time. I had a great time. What should I tell you. So, that’s the situation. I won’t go there now, sick as Iam. See we have always only one car there, and I am depending on them. And it’s not comfortable anymore. I took now, when the children are there, upstairs the bedroom, because it’s a... they made a window, you know, the skylight there. And they have air conditioner up there. I cannot go steps up again, and up and down. And they made a half bathroom there, I made. I had to pay half for it, the time that I am up there. And that’s only half bathroom. If I want to take a bath, I have to go downstairs. It’s no more comfortable for me. It came to a point that it’s no more comfortable. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 331 | I just was wondering if you felt that America had become home to you and that you, also whether you felt like... | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 332 | It was my home. New York was my home. It was my home. I never, when I went even to Hungary, I never said I’m going home. That I can erase because of what they did to us. You know? I was born there. And all the relatives there. But I never, never said “I am going home. I am going to Hungary.” New York was my home. I felt at home. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 333 | Do you think that people in this country and in this day and age are, are paying attention enough to the dangers of what happened during the Holocaust and making sure that it couldn’t happen again? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 334 | No, no. The people are so far away from it. Even then, when it happened, I think, they were so far away from it, that it’s only me that I am afraid that 1t can happen and what can happen. It’s only me who went through. They are laughing when I am saying it, that I am afraid from everything. I am afraid of my shadow, you know, that kind of a situation. But no. When we went to Hungary and they were asking us, “How could you live there? This is a jungle there, in New York.” You know? They have a very bad opinion of what’s happening in New York. It’s happening here, too. This is much smaller and what’s happening here, when you open the television, they start the killing. Okay, it’s a family killing or whatever but it’s happening. It’s happening here, too. And it’s always worse for the people who don’t live in a place. You know, it seems much worse. I don’t know. I wasn’t afraid in New York where I lived. Once I was very afraid, when I sold my house and I sold it to a Chinese guy, who, they knew that they have to give back Hong Kong, and they were coming. And he said that he wants it for his family. Baloney. He made a business from it. He made from a two-family house, four families. For money, he’s getting rent. Unbelievable. From the basement he made two apartments and two apartments what we had upstairs. I went to see it when... there’s no garage. From the garage he made an apartment. It’s unbelievable. And he wanted to get out from it, the last minute. But he had 25 thousand dollar, 25 put down? How much? I don’t know how many thousands he had to put down when we made the agreement. It was in the lawyers, collateral, you know. And he wanted to, if he doesn’t get the mortgage what he wants, that he can get out from it, but he got the mortgage what he wanted. The lawyer find out he got the mortgage what he wanted. But he wanted a cheaper mortgage and he wanted to get out. But then he would lose that money. I think it was 25. I don’t remember. Anyway. And I was getting phone calls and it was a strange, strange accent, that I am going to come and kill you. So then I said, “My God, I want to get out as early as can from here.” You know? I think they were those people, those Chinese, I don’t know. Then I was very afraid. Though in the beginning I was very afraid, we were robbed. So I slept, not in our house, we lived in an apartment and we were one apartment, second apartment, we were robbed. But that’s why we bought the house, we went out from that neighborhood. But otherwise, otherwise I didn’t have that fear. I didn’t go on the subways, I was driving. And it was very dangerous already, in the hospital, too. So it was a parking lot across the street where I paid parking. And I just ran to the building. It was very dangerous. I got out at the last minute really, because if you walked in the hospital itself, in the lobby, and you had a necklace on or something, people from outside came and they took it off. So it was a very dangerous place. And it is very interesting that every hospital in New York, it is in a bad place now. It is very interesting. Even Flowers (ph), Fifth Avenue, my God, my husband was operated, spine operation and I went to visit him with George. Behind it there were big buildings and we had to get off the subway. And they were throwing bottles against us. That was the best hospital, the name Flower, Fifth Avenue. Can you imagine? That was years ago. Stay in Harlem, or no. So, we came here. What I was seeing today on the television show, it’s really scary, about five black guys, who are thieves. And that show is from New York, and how they are stealing cars and how they are just bumping into people’s cars. And then innocent women, they get out, what happened. And they get out too, behind them and they grab their necks, put them in the other car behind them and they take that car because it’s a better car than theirs. There were five of them. Can you imagine that? I don’t know how they can say it on the television this way. And there was a detective there, too. And they were saying it, how they are show it how they are doing it and they are selling it. And she said, “How much you get for that car?” She says, “We sell it for parts, 500 dollars. And if it’s a Mercedes, a nice, new one, sometimes 5,000 dollars.” This is, this is, now again a more dangerous life since I came. They were stealing cars, of course they were stealing cars, but that way I didn’t hear it, never, when I was living there. So it’s now 13 years. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 335 | What about anti-Semitism? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 336 | In New York? | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 337 | Living in Lexington, have you experienced anti-Semitism? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 338 | Actually no, because I am not... I think in this neighborhood, yes. I didn’t experience it, but I have a friend, who is married to a Chinese man. She’s from Canada. And she, nobody was her friend, only I. [Laughing.] But she lives here a long, long time, and her mother was Russian. And she was born in Canada. And she’s telling me that this neighborhood, when she... they builded the house. They didn’t allow Jews in this neighborhood. That was what she was telling me. And then I had a remark. Somebody came, I don’t know who was it, those guys who are, you know, trying to convert you. I don’t know which religion was it. And I said, “I am not interested. I am Jewish.” And he said, “What is it, everybody is Jewish in this neighborhood?” I says, “No, minority.” They are all Baptist here, in this neighborhood. But now there are a few Jewish families. But she said that they weren’t allowed here in this neighborhood, Jews. I didn’t, as I said, I don’t know. I didn’t know about it. And she, she was unbelievable, they didn’t want to take her nowhere between them, because she was marrying to a Chinese. He is a genius. He is now 70, I don’t know, something. He got tenure. He was with IBM originally. And then he was teaching at UK. And now he is teaching in Frankfort in state university. And at age 70 they gave him tenure. He is such a genius. But he is Chinese. And she has two Chinese, he has two daughters, a daughter and a son, both of them are doctors. And they were really suffering in this neighborhood, she said, because they were Chinese kids. She was always telling me what they went through. So, it’s any difference, Chinese or Jew? If they don’t, if it’s not their own, then they don’t like you. I don’t know. We are friends. With this building now. Those people lived before them a very long time here, 20 years. He was a pathologist and she was Head of Pathology at UK. And we didn’t go to each other’s houses, but when we spoke we were very nice. And her daughter, Jenna’s daughter, when she got married in Louisville all the neighbors got together, five of us and we went all to the wedding, to her daughter’s wedding, because she didn’t have any family here. She doesn’t have any family here. And because I am Jewish and she is married to a Chinese [laughing] so we are very good friends. We are going together, she helps me enormously. She is a very good person. Now she was, she was nurse, actually. She went for nursing in Case Western, in Cleveland. She met him there somewhere, I don’t know, in Ohio. She... really, she felt it at UK. She was in the Nursing department and she was the head of the private nurses at that time they had. And she had to give the patients the nurses. And she is absolutely, you know, she didn’t know about discrimination. And she gave once a black nurse to a white person. She was fired. And then when she was fired from there she started to tutor. She is very good in math. And she tutored all the kids from this neighborhood. She knows everybody because she was a tutor. And from that, because it was not enough what her husband made, they send the two children to medical school. The daughter is a psychiatrist and she is having now the first baby, she is waiting every minute, though she is 35 years old. Yeah, she is. And she lives in Louisville. And the son is in Louisville, too. He is a general practitioner, but he wanted to be a surgeon. End of Tape 6, Side A Tape 6, Side B | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 339 | ...here that Iam accepted. I think because of the speeches, that’s why. Many people know me, and many people want me, and many people are very grateful that I am teaching and I am teaching the children about history, what is not, unfortunately, not in history books. It’s only a few words about the Second World War, the Holocaust. And I don’t know whether it ever will be. And they are very grateful and gracious. And really they do everything for me. They pick me up, they take me home, they take me to eat. They give me presents. It’s unbelievable what they are doing, those people. And I think that it’s sincere. Those people who, you know, who are calling me and I am talking... so it’s many people. 150 times I talk, it’s many people. They are sincere. And they are not anti-Semitic. They are not. I’m convinced 100 percent about many, many of them, they are not. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 340 | Anything else you’d like to say before we close? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 341 | Before we close? You are a nice person. [Laughing.] I like you. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 342 | You’re a nice person, too. | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 343 | Thank you. [Laughter. ] | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 344 | I thank you very much for spending all of this time with me. | question |
RG-50.549.05.0008 | 345 | You are very welcome. Conclusion of Interview | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 0 | Okay, it’s May 17", 2000 and we’re conducting an interview with Mr. Oscar Haber here in his home in Lexington, Kentucky and this 1s an interview for the Holocaust Survivors in Kentucky Interview Project, which is being sponsored by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, as well as the Kentucky Oral History Commission. We are doing an interview that will focus mostly on Mr. Haber’s experiences after the Holocaust because he has been interviewed before by the Survivors of the Shoah Foundation. And there is a videotape that is available through the Shoah Foundation. My name is Arwen Donahue and this is tape number one, side A. Mr. Haber, let’s start with your date of birth. | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 1 | March 8", 1910. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 2 | And you talked about, in your other interview and by the way if we ever repeat anything, we’ ll try to just cover things that we haven’t talked about before. But I’m sure that you don’t remember everything that you said and didn’t say, so I might remind you sometimes if we’ve already talked about something. But in your other interview you did mention that you went, you had an unusual opportunity, you were growing up in a small town, in a shtetl and you were one of nine children, and you had an unusual opportunity to attend a high school, a public high school and eventually became a dentist. And I’m wondering how it happened that you had this opportunity to study in a public high school and where the high school was? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 3 | The high school was in Debica, which is in the district of Krakow and that was about nine kilometers of my village where I was born. And we had, from the age of three, in our house, always a teacher, special for religious purposes. But by this same occasion we were studying normal classes. So in the age of four I could already go in the village to the first class of public school and I still was a good pupil, because no one of them was on the level I was. But I finished there the fourth year and my father decided I have to go into the small city, which was Debica there. In the same time, he put us in a quarter, that means to live in the house of a Rabbi, which was teaching us the Hebrew and the religious teachings. In the same time I went to the Polish public school. And that was a very difficult experience because we have to get up in the morning at six o’clock, sometimes earlier, and before we went to the public school in the morning for eight o’clock it started, we had already to pray and to learn Hebrew and to learn everything about religious life. And more and more. So, I was there about six years living with this Rabbi. At the same time after I graduated from the normal school, from the seven classes, I applied to the high school, but I was too young. Because it was already that you can go to school, start school only by the age of seven, and I was four years old. But I was somehow fortunate, my father knew the director of this high school. And he spoke with him and he said, “Well I cannot do it. He has to go normal now to the sixth class at least, at least and to repeat.” And my father said, “You know, make him a test.”” And I got a test and I passed the test, but still 1 he couldn’t take me. I had to repeat the seventh grade another year. And then I was accepted to the high school. And there I matriculated there and so I continued my studies. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 4 | So, what language did you speak at home? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 5 | Well, the first language we spoke, that was Yiddish. My father was very religious and he want us to know the Yiddish, we are spoken. But we had Polish Gentile servants, too, so we have to speak Polish too. And surrounded by peasants who are speaking Polish and you have to knew the language. In the school was Polish of course. When I went to school in Debica there was in the fourth class was already German, too. So I had German, Polish and Yiddish, and of course, Hebrew, which was, it was the liturgical language, to pray. At the age of three we started already to learn Hebrew and we knew the Hebrew alphabet and we knew to pray and most of the prayings until today, I know by heart. Most of the thick books, we learn, we have to do it. And the first when you opened eyes at the religious house, the first is to wash your hands, that’s the first things. And to make a blessing about the washing the hands and you make a blessing for the food and you have to thank God that you got up in the morning. That was the first Hebrew praying and that was at the age of three. At the age of four we started already to learn the Torah, which is the Bible, the Old Testament. And so we continued to, so therefore I am quite acquainted about religious Jewish life. And then later on, of course, in high school we learned about, in the public school we learned about history and that was very interesting, world history, too. And German literature. And therefore I, until today, I am quite acquainted with the world literature and especially the German literature and the Hebrew, of course. And the Yiddish. So, this is the way like it was. It was a very hard thing, because the distance to the town was like I said about nine kilometers, eight or nine kilometers. I don’t remember exactly. And for Saturday we used to go home, I mean to the village. And when we came to the village Saturday, there was the traditional Friday evening meal with the praying, with everything. In our house was there a minyan, which is the quorum of ten people which is praying, Jews, by Jewish law. And my late father, by himself with his own funds, he founded a Torah. He let scribe it, and we had a new Torah in our house and there was a praying in our house and my father was the master of the ceremony. And the people from the villages around, which were few, not always was there the quorum of ten people. But Saturday morning was always a praying in quorum. If it wasn’t quorum, so how many it was, but it was the normal pray. And we had to know it and to participate. And that was in afternoon, my father take a sleep one hour and he took us 1n the room, me and my brother, because my older brother was with me in the school at this Rabbi. He was sitting down and we had to repeat what we learned all the week. My father wanted to know what we learned and how far we are continuing to progress. And that was the way like it was in our house. Of course, Saturday was like in the Torah is resting day. And that was the religious way of life. Nothing was working, nobody was working, even the servants. Only to feed the animals, to milk the cows and that what was doing. But not working in the field, not other work was performed. Only the most necessary for surviving, which was necessary. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 6 | You mentioned that one of the towns nearby, Ropczyce, had a strong Hasidic tradition. Did your family have any Hasidic ties or traditions? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 7 | My father by himself was a Hasid. But he didn’t go to Ropcezyce because the old Ropcezyce Rabbi wasn’t more. The founder of the Hasidic movement which was Reb Nafthali, which you 2 know. And he was no more alive. There was already third or fourth generation there and there was no potential Rabbi which could, which could affinate (ph) my father there. My father used to go to Sans (ph) , which was quite a distance, about fifty miles. To go for holidays there to the Rabbi of Sans (ph). Also sometimes OfBobof (ph), which is also a little shtetl there in the surroundings of Sans (ph). They were the very famous Rabbis, which is the continuation of this Rabbis is now here in the United States. They are siblings and family offsprings, which are continue this Hasidic movement of Bobof (ph) and of Sans (ph). And that was, my father was a Hasid of them. He wasn’t, by himself, he wasn’t a blind Hasidic. He wasn’t overdoing. But the basic religious things were holy for him. And that was my father. Of course my mother did everything what my father said to do. The thing was, my father, his first wife passed away. And from his first wife, gave birth a daughter and by the birth she passed away. He was a young widower. He was already thirty-five or thirty-six years old and a matchmaker found him a girl of sixteen years somewhere in another village there. And she came to live with him, and she was my mother. She gave birth to the nine children. And we were in touch with our sister, because Jewish law recognize it, one child, when it is from the same father, is a sibling, more even than one mother. That is the religious way and tradition. Interesting enough, our sister, she married a very interesting man, who was, in the beginning he was a teacher in our house, teaching us the religious ways. He was very educated in Jewish Talmudic teachings. And he married her, and he succeeded, he became quite a rich man. And she gave birth to eight children. And there are only two children survived and they are still living. One is ninety-two years old, lives in the United States. And the other one is eighty-five years, that’s the youngest one, eighty-four years old, lives in Israel. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 8 | These would be your nieces and nephews actually. Right? Officially. Your sister’s children? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 9 | Are? | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 10 | They would be your nieces and your nephews? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 11 | Yeah, they are my nieces and we are in touch with them and we are very much in good relations. And very interesting story about these two nieces. Both of them survived the Holocaust. The one married in the war and had a daughter in the war. And she escaped, run away, being pregnant from Debica, I mean this village there, to Lvov, which was in the Ukraine. Then it was belonged to Poland, but the Russian invaded this part of the country, of Polish country. And she, when she saw the disaster in the ghetto, she put her child under a convent’s door. And was looking from far away what happened to this child. And she saw that a nun came out and she took in the child in the house. And then she ran away and she became a servant, as a Polish girl, as a Gentile at the head of the Gestapo in Lvov. That was the older one. The younger one had a friend in Lvov. She was in Lvov studying sewing, to be a seamstering. Mother, very good seamster, which she was. And she met there a boy, before the war he was leader already of the trade unions. And when the Russian came in... in the beginning he was a very big shot. But when the Russians, when the German invaded, he went with the Russian back to Russia and there he joined the Polish Army, which was organized there by the Poles after their agreement, the Polish agreement in exile with the Russians, which allowed them to organize their Army, which was affiliated to the Russian Army. And they were fighting. And he was fighting the Germans until Berlin. And he put her on a Polish family. She was a seamster and she gave birth 3 to a daughter, but that was already in 1945 when the war is going to end. When he came from Russia to Poland with the invasion, I mean to fight with the Russian Army. And then she gave birth to this daughter. And when the war was coming to an end, he became a governor of a part which was annected from Poland from the German territory there. And he took her there, and they had another two sons, but they not living as Jews. And they very talented boys. And when it came in Poland the time where Jews moved from Poland to Israel in 1965 I guess, was it? Something like this. They came, first time she told the sons that they are Jewish and they were already both matriculated after high school diploma. And one of them was already studying engineering. And they came to Israel. But their father, himself, he in the meantime, being a governor he studied at the university at the same time to become an agronom... agronomy. And he came to Israel as an agronom. But because Israel didn’t have confidence to all these apparatchiks from Poland. I mean all this communist active parties, he couldn’t find a job. It was very difficult to find. And we were already at this time in Israel and I had some connection with people and to a member of the Israel Parliament. And I wrote to them and I warranted about him, that he’s not one of the Russian services and he got a job in agronomy. But he passed away about six or seven years ago. In the meantime, the older son is working in a very high, secret Israel Army factory. And the other son was also an engineer, but in the same time he was teaching in a school, in a vocational school. And married a girl from Venezuela. And one year ago they decided that they leave Israel and they came to the United States. And he got a job here in California. He must be very, very important engineer, because he got the, he made the green card and he can work and they bought a house. But they have one son, who 1s at the Israel Army. And just now I heard, two weeks ago, he went to Israel and asked to give him some off in the Army. And he came to visit him here to the United States. He will not stay. He will go back to Israel. But he decided, his wife and with the other two children to stay in the United States. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 12 | Sounds as if you’ve kept in pretty close touch with whatever members of your family have survived. | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 13 | Oh yeah, whatever I have. I have two brothers. I have a second cousin, who was... they were all in camps. And they are living here in the United States. My brothers and my second cousins. Are we are trying to keep all together here. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 14 | Let’s go back to the time that we were talking about before the war. Did you end up going to high school then because your father wanted you to have oppor... special opportunities? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 15 | Yes. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 16 | That normally your other siblings wouldn’t have had? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 17 | High school, further studies wasn’t the main purpose of my father. My father would have very much liked me to go on and study Jewish, maybe Rabbinical even studies. But I was very stubborn and I was in very difficult conditions, making my study very difficult. Often in hunger, often have to work and to gain my life. But I did it. And I’m happy I did it. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 18 | So it was really your, becoming a dentist was something that you really wanted to do. 4 | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 19 | I, that was my idea. That was my idea and there was also an idea which I got from a cousin of mine who was a dentist in the other place there. And I liked the way like he was living. I was enjoying more the free life. This religious life didn’t match my character. I wasn’t never, never... even being young, following all the instructions and prescriptions, but I was never strictly convinced that that was what I want to do. I was always looking on the broad world, and life was for me, more interesting outside the religious life. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 20 | You mentioned in your first interview that you were a Polish patriot. | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 21 | Yes. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 22 | Were you politically interested or involved in Polish... well, were you interested in Polish politics? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 23 | No, no, no, no. I was, deep in my soul I was Jewish, but I found that we are living in a Polish country, this is Poland and this is our homeland and we owe to be loyal to our country. That’s wherever I am, I found my obligation to be honest and I could avoid serving in the Polish Army which wasn’t easy. It wasn’t easy. It was very difficult. But it wasn’t voluntary, because Poland was an Army which was called to the Army. That was not a voluntary army. You have to go, by twenty-one everyone has to go to the army except that somebody 1s unable to fulfill the demand, sick and so forth. And a lot of my colleagues and a lot of Jewish people usually they started to do everything to avoid to go into the Polish Army. I didn’t try it even. And I did it full hearted and I think it was my obligation to do it, because I owe it. I understand that it 1s a common responsibility when you are a citizen of a country, you live there, you have to do what belongs. But politically I was never involved in any movement, never any movement. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 24 | Not... | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 25 | I loved Poland. I loved the country. It gave us opportunity and then that’s it. I did what I had to do. End of Tape 1, Side A 5 Tape 1, Side B | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 26 | Tape one, side B. Were you involved in any Zionist organizations? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 27 | It was a time I was involved in Zionist organization. It was a time I thought maybe one has to go to Palestine those times. I will not deny there was not in Poland anti-Semitism. But you know anti-Semitism until today has many faces. There is an economic anti-Semitism, there is a political anti-Semitism and there is a racist anti-Semitism. And for me and my observance, my conviction, I think if I analyze the Jewish situation in Poland, it was more economic anti- Semitism, with some reasons, objective reasons. They were nobody’s fault, but the situation became so that this anti-Semitism has his logical reasons, logical reasons, maybe it shouldn’t be, maybe it is nobody’s fault, but it was. I cannot say there was a racial anti-Semitism. Well, there is in every nation, there are some extreme people, which they can get... and they are more doing it for personal reasons and for gaining something of it. And this is also the political anti- Semitism, which is to gain something to rule over people. You know? And Jews were more educated, absolutely more educated than the common people in Poland. Because as I told you before, I started to study when I was three. You know, and this gives, whatever you study, it gives you more advance about people which are just starting to study something at the age of eight or nine or ten even. Some of them didn’t go to school, the Polish people didn’t go to school ever. There was illiteracy, too. So, when it came to elections, the Jews, they knew what they wanted. And the masses didn’t know. Maybe it is until today a lot of masses don’t know when they are going to vote, what they need and what they want. It is until today everywhere. But especially in a country like Poland, which was, which wasn’t so educated. There was a lot of people who didn’t have, it was only by propaganda, which was from mouth to mouth, from promises and so forth, you know. And then Poland, I would need to go into the situation of Poland, how Poland became free after being occupied by three countries. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 28 | Well let’s not get into overall historical... | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 29 | Yeah, I understand. I understand, but the Jews even, in each occupied party, had different opportunities. In the Russian occupied part they couldn’t progress like this we could make in the Austro-Hungarian or in the German occupied territory. So here comes the difference. Education, knowledge and education, that was, is and that would always be the point. And this gave also the impulse for political views and for a kind of organized anti-Semitism, which for the Jews, for the victims, it is not important what kind of anti-Semitism it is. He is anti-Semite, why and what, we didn’t analyze and that wasn’t important. We had to feel it and that what it is. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 30 | When you were in the Army then, in 1935 and ‘36, did you, were you primarily with non-Jewish Poles? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 31 | Oh yeah. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 32 | And how was that? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 33 | Ten percent was Jews. It was the same, approximately the same relative like it was, the population was about ten percent and there was about ten percent was in the Army. 6 | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 34 | Were you discriminated against at all for being Jewish during your service? | question |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 35 | It’s difficult to say that you were discriminating because Army is not the thing which gives you the time. You have so many things to do that you don’t have the time to play these games. But, but, the officers, the Polish officers generally, generally, were anti-Semites. What kind? They were so educated, they were so prepared. That was the elite. That they, but of course, they didn’t, they didn’t want to show up as anti-Semites. But you could feel it, you could feel it. Not everybody felt it. And then like I said, the poorer Jews went to the Army because they were not able to pay to get free from the Army, not to serve. The rich Jews who didn’t want to go to the Army, there was always finding a way of bribery. To whom? To the Polish officers, to the Polish doctors, to the Polish secretaries, so that they made themselves sick and they write and they are sick and they cannot serve. And so the poor and little Jews were serving in the Army. There were no too many of the intelligentsia which was serving in the Army. And then there was another thing. After matriculation you are going to the officer’s school. And in the officer’s school, they didn’t want the Jews to become officers. They were there because they were, after matriculation that was the law. So usually they find always a way to send them back to the normal Army, not to live in the school to become an officer. There were officers, Jewish officers, but very few, very few. It was difficult to advance, to be a Jew and to be an officer, a high officer in the Polish Army. There were higher officers only medical officers, because they needed them. They have to take them and that’s what it was. | answer |
RG-50.549.05.0011 | 36 | So, by the time you were in the Service, you were a dentist, were you a dentist already? | question |