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RG-50.549.05.0012

You remember anything about the journey?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Oh yes. (Laughing.) The... I’m not sure how many, 20 or so people could live in the cabins and my parents had a cabin. Most of us were down in the hold and like all troop ships, you know, seven stacks. And we used the bottom one or the second bottom one, there was nobody there. 20 And it was pretty good until the weather got rough. We really got tossed around and that day that we got tossed around the dinner was bacon and beans. I just stayed in the bunk. But one fellow, he was a big eater. He never missed a meal and he came charging down the steps, threw his teeth on the bunk and ran back up and fed the fish. Then he came back, got his teeth, and went back to eat the second time. (Laughing.) That’s about all. It was a long trip. It was 14 days, the ship was slow. But that’s all I remember. It was unremarkable. Left from Antwerp, stopped in South Hampton to Hoboken, which was the Holland-American Line terminal. Ellis Island had been closed about a month or two earlier, so we didn’t come through Ellis Island.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Remember first impressions of New York?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Hot, hot and dirty. Of course the high rise, and the frantic activity, cars going everywhere.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

How was your English?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Non-existent or very poor. Well, I had high school English. But didn’t have much choice, had to learn in a hurry, because I got a job within a week as a lab technician at Mount Sinai Hospital. Paid the glorious wage of 100 dollars a month. And we had to work half day Saturdays. And then we took, had to take... we didn’t have to, we took turns taking calls on the weekends. That paid an extra six dollars. And the girls all were more interested in going to the beach, so I took all of their calls, because I needed the six dollars more than I needed a suntan. And then I got a ticket. Two weeks in this country and I got a ticket. That was Saturday morning, going to work, I was going down the subway and a cop stopped me. I didn’t know what he wanted. I didn’t understand enough of what he was saying. And so I pulled my passport out and I opened it on the immigration stamp to show him I don’t, you know it was two weeks. I did understand what identification was. And so he proceeded to write and tore this thing out, gave me my passport back and tore this thing out and told me it was a ticket. Well the only meaning of the word ticket I knew was admission to a theater. Didn’t want to, don’t have time to go. Tried to explain... finally made me take it, he told me I didn’t have to go myself, I could give it to somebody else. When I got to work I tried to tell the fellow I work with, I asked him if he wanted the ticket. He said what for? (Laughing.) I told him I didn’t know, but a cop had given it to me. So he explained to me that I had gotten a ticket for whatever, well, it was June and first of July was the end of the fiscal year and he had to make his quota, so he was writing tickets furiously and I guess I looked like a good sucker for one. And when I became a citizen you have to list all non- moving traffic violations excepted. So I went back to court to find out what the heck I had done. Whatever it was, violation of city code something or other, disposition, two dollars. Fine of two dollars, that was it. But it’s on my records.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

It’s not on your records as having, the infraction was not listed on your records?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

No, I had to list it on my citizenship application.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

I mean the cause of the ticket being given.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Oh it listed whatever it was, the code violation, but I have no idea what it was that I did. You know, hopscotch down the steps into the subway, who knows what it was. The reason you had 21 to be so careful... in the ‘30s and ‘40s, well prior to let’s say the ‘50s and ‘60s, anti-Semitism was an acceptable feeling in this country. And the State Department was so strongly anti- Semitic, they saw it as their function to keep as many Jews out as they could, not to try and rescue as many and let them in. And the Immigration Service didn’t help matters either. An uncle of mine when he went for his hearing was asked for his convictions. He said he didn’t have any. The judge says, “Think it over and come back in six months.” This went on twice. You know, what the hell are you talking about? Well, it turned out that there was somebody with the same name, apparently, who had gotten a parking ticket in Buffalo, New York. And they accused him of lying because he didn’t list it. And he said, “I don’t even know where Buffalo is and I don’t have an automobile.” So they finally... but his citizenship was delayed for a year over something like that.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

And you think it was because he was Jewish that they...?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Oh sure. There wasn’t any... they put a lot of barriers in the way. Of course then too, you know, the rules were a little different. You had to be a resident for five years. You had to demonstrate your fluency in English, not like today where they’ Il give it to you in Spanish or French or whatever. And lastly you had to demonstrate a knowledge of American history. And the Daughters of the American Revolution used to give courses in American history for foreigners. Who was the 23" president? They asked my dad to name the 13 original colonies. And he got as far as one or two, I remember, and the judge said, “Guess I asked the wrong person, you tell me.” Well, I started out with Georgia going up the coast, because I could never remember whether it’s Maine or New Hampshire. (Laughing.) And he stopped me when I got to Vermont. So I got off easy. I got at least 12 of the 13. And he asked me, I still don’t know why that was the wrong answer, he asked me, “Why do we celebrate the Fourth of July?” I said, “Because it’s Independence Day.” That wasn’t the right answer. I’m not sure what it was supposed to be. But they were pretty strict and... depending on the judge, most of those were not all that bad. But there was... well Dupont did not hire its first Jew until World War Two. And when I graduated from college in ‘54, Armstrong-Quartz (ph) still didn’t hire Jews. It was that pervasive still.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

When was your citizenship?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

‘52. Matter of fact, my brother couldn’t become a citizen because he was not in the country. You had to be in the country. He was in the military. He had been drafted. He couldn’t become a citizen because he was not in the United States.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

So you in those years, those first years that you came to the U.S... you came in ‘47?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

‘47.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Were you, you were aware of having to be very cautious as a Jew? End of Tape 2, Side A 22 Tape 2, Side B

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RG-50.549.05.0012

This is tape two, side B.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Well in New York there really was very little that you could or couldn’t do as such. But being ignorant as to the American way, I asked a girl in one of my classes at City College for a date and she turned me down flat. She was Italian and I was Jewish and it just didn’t go. I didn’t know that. I applied for admission to Columbia and RPI, Rensselaer in Albany, Schenectady. And I was turned down. In one instance, the Dutch quota was filled. You know, all kinds of barriers that existed that you ran into either unwittingly or stupidly, whichever, for me mostly unwittingly. Natives would have known better and would have avoided the... either embarrassment or whatever you want to call it.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

What were your parents doing once they arrived here?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

My... you were, you had to come with a job offer and the company that my dad had worked for in Berlin in the thirties had a... what was then a branch in New York, which then or now was of course was the only office. And they had offered him a job there and so he went to work there the second day we were here or after the first week we were here. And I had gotten the job at Mount Sinai Hospital. My brother got a job somewhere, I don’t remember. And so everybody worked.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

And you all shared an apartment?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Yes, we lived with my parents and since we were... I’ve been thinking about that, and of course, never asked. But we were expected to contribute to the household. And I’m not sure whether that was a matter of need or a matter of discipline. That you live here, you gotta pay for it. Earn money, your share, which was no problem. Once in the Fall, I started at night at the City College of New York, went to night school and worked during the day. Did that all the way through.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

How did you end up feeling about this country? You hadn’t been happy to come. Did you end up feeling, at some point feel at home here?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Oh yeah, very quickly, certainly. And I don’t want you to think that I was paranoid about these barriers that you ran into. It was just ignorance, you learn from it. One of my uncles took me aside and gave me the facts of life. That there are some things that Jews can’t do in this country. (Clock chimes with bird-call.)

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Cardinal? That means it’s three o’clock?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

That’s right. (Laughing.) I guess you didn’t hear the two o’clock bird. It’s like the rules in, whether you like them or not you have to abide by them. You’re not supposed to drive more than 65 miles an hour. And then New York being such a big place you can avoid unpleasantries. There’s no need to go looking for them. 23

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Did it strike you as hypocritical? Or did you think about that? This so-called Home of the Free, discriminating against...?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

No, frankly, no, no, I really never thought about it. There are some things that you... I guess it really wasn’t very important. They were minor inconveniences. It wasn’t any big deal. I can’t complain about that.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

So, what happened next? You’re going to school at night and you’re working in the day. And...

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Trying to get better jobs. Getting paid more. And then I, of course, the Korean War started and I had to go for my physical. I was classified 1-A to begin with before I ever took the physical. And then trying to get a student deferment. I had a very nasty Draft Board that made all kinds of unpleasant remarks when I went for a hearing for a student deferment, about “What’s the matter, don’t you want to shoot some Chinks?” You know, that sort of thing. I graduated in January of ‘51. And went on to Graduate school, and they just gave me fits all the way through. They would re-classify me 1-A, had to appeal it. Then they would get it back to a student deferment for six months, but retroactive to a date of... so half the time I was deferred, half the time I wasn’t, which was a real distraction while in school. But I made it through all right. Didn’t even think about it, I went to work for Shell Oil Company and that was deferrable employment because of the oil industry. Of course the war was pretty well over by that time anyway, ‘54.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Would you have felt willing to go and fight in the Korean War if you hadn’t been involved in this student... or what were your feelings behind that?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Not very happy about it. I wasn’t even a citizen. As a matter of fact, my brother, who was drafted, he did not go to school, he was actually sent to Germany. And when this citizenship hearing came up, he couldn’t, because he was overseas. I mean, that’s the most preposterous thing. He was in the U.S. Army therefore he couldn’t become a citizen. But not particularly happy about it. Wasted enough time in my life already without having to serve a few more years in the Army. But no, I wasn’t particularly, I was not unwilling. I mean, I wasn’t going to refuse. But I wasn’t going to volunteer either.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

When and how did you meet your wife?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

We lived in the same house. Well, I have to say that I was too poor to live in the dormitory and three of us shared an apartment.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

I’m sorry, what school was it?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

This was at Duke, at Duke University in Durham. And this is one of these old, you know, like old Louisville. Big homes and they made it into a number of apartments. We had one apartment upstairs, it was a Divinity student and his wife. Another apartment upstairs and the landlady rented out one of the apartments downstairs to Alice and her roommate. That’s how we met. I was at Duke, she was working. She was a lab technician working at the VA hospital.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

And what was your major at Duke? 24

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Chemistry.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

A particular type of chemistry?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Analytical chemistry. That’s what I used to do for a living for a long time.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Had you thought... well it sounds like you didn’t have any feelings as far as dating a Jew versus a non-Jew or caring a lot on that?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

No.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Was your family equally indifferent?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

I think so. My dad certainly was, my mother, I’m not so sure. I don’t think any girl would have been good enough for my mother.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Did you ever talk within your family about what had happened during the war or was this kind of a moot subject?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

No, oh no, no. They uh, no, certainly not. They, well as I mentioned, my mother is one of thirteen children, two of them were killed in World War One. Of the remaining eleven, three brothers were here and four sisters. And the one brother was picked up during the Kristallnacht thing in ‘38 and taken to Dachau. And then was released because he had pneumonia, so he wouldn’t die in a concentration camp, so they could count him as having released him, rather than having him die there. And he died at home. And they decided they better get their son out before he’s going to get it too. But my mother’s sister-in-law with her daughter stayed and they perished. And another sister and her husband had moved to Belgium in the early ‘30s. He was a very prosperous furniture manufacturer. They had two daughters. And they actually helped one of the other sisters’ children, they managed to get out, I guess, as late as °42, by way of Belgium and through Portugal. They stayed for a while with them. But that couple with their children, the sister, they perished. As a matter of fact, I had documentation of them at one time, their death certificates. And then on my father’s side, my grandmother, my dad’s mother, lived in Amsterdam also. And she had cardiac problems so bad, she couldn’t have walked from here to the front door without taking nitroglycerine, but she survived the cattle car ride to the gas chambers and died at Auschwitz. And one of, his sister was here, but his brother was still in Germany and he perished. And so no, we, and fortunately for my mother’s, my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, she died in late ‘44, so she never did find out what happened to her children, those that were in Europe. But no, that was a common topic of conversation in the family. My... the son that was sent over, he went back to his hometown looking for his parents or for his mother and sister. He was in the Army. Some of my other cousins that were in the Army went looking for the relatives and for us. Of course once we got back to Holland, my parents, my mother contacted her sisters, and let them know that we had survived. Of course, they also asked to see if we could find out from there what happened to the other relatives. And there’s the extended family as I mentioned, my dad’s cousin, his parents did not survive. 25

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RG-50.549.05.0012

What was his name?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Robertson, he... (Laughing.) I’m laughing because you ask about the name. His name was Rosenberg also and when he was in the hospital in Sweden a man came in, a British Army officer and said to him, “Are you Hans Rosenberg?” He said yes. He said, “I’m Peter Robertson, your brother.” (Laughing.) He had been sent out and was drafted in the British Army and they wouldn’t allow the name Rosenberg. Because in the event of he would be captured by the Germans that they wouldn’t... he wanted to just anglicize 1t and make it Montrose, but there’s a Lord Montrose and you’re not allowed to use the name of a famous person, so they made it Robertson. And so then when he came over here and became a citizen he decided so he would have the same name as his brother he changed his name to Robertson.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

What was his first name?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Henry, Hans.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Okay, and this is the same one who you mentioned earlier, who had written the book?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Yes, right.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

So, most of your family’s conversation then, when you were talking about wartime issues was concerned with what had become of various family members and tracking people down and making...

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Family members, to some extent, property, the carpet which is in our family room used to belong to my parents and then of course, the Germans got it. And my dad was, sometime, I’m not sure when, in the fifties, he was in Holland on business and he saw it hanging in a carpet store in the window. And he went in and said, “That’s my carpet.” Fellow says, “Tough luck, it cost you so much,” whatever it was. He took a picture of it, but 1t didn’t do any good, because as I said earlier, the Dutch didn’t want to transfer the victim from one to another. But they ended up buying it again. And then I got it after my mother died. There are other things that come up occasionally or would come up about something that was missing, or wondering where it was. I had a fairly nice stamp collection that I had given to a friend for safekeeping. And all the valuable stamps are gone. You know, you can be harsh about it, saying they stole from you, on the other hand, they may have traded it for food and needed it. They didn’t know whether you were going to come back or not. The only one that was absolutely and scrupulously honest was the concierge of the business where my dad worked. He had everything that my dad entrusted to him and gave every bit of it back. Where many of your so-called friends denied they ever had anything. And there’s one thing that’s unfortunate and I didn’t know about it until fairly recently. Apparently my mother had written a long letter to one of her sisters, or maybe to all of them, same letter addressed to all of them, about the deprivation, et cetera, et cetera. She said her ambition was to die in her own bed between clean sheets. And that letter wasn’t discovered until one of my cousins, one of the sister’s daughters, who lived on Long Island, but was moving to Florida and was going through the stuff to throw things away and came across that letter and gave it to... I think there may be one or two pages missing. But it was not until a year or so, two years after my mother had died. And that explained a lot of things to us. But fortunately we 26 were able to do that unknowingly. She died at home in her own bed. It was difficult to do it that way, but...

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RG-50.549.05.0012

From where had she written the letter?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

From Holland after the war, she had wrote that to her sisters, describing what had happened to some extent during the war and the deprivations and how that was her ambition. She wrote in there, “I wasn’t going to give those bastards the pleasure of throwing me into a mass grave. I want to die in my own bed between clean sheets.” Probably one of the reasons for our survival was my mother’s strong will. I think that had a lot to do with it. Probably didn’t realize it at the time.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

More so than your father’s? Or your father was more of a...

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Much more easier-going person, yeah.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Was your family very close after you came to the States?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. Not only... you talking my parents and my brother and I, or overall the relatives?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Both.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Oh yeah, yes definitely, and still am. I mean there aren’t that many of us left. But I talk to some of my cousins on a fairly regular basis. We don’t see each other all that often because we’re now scattered. A few years ago in Spring we decided to make a round-trip to Florida and visit Alice’s brother and then take a few days on the beach and then went to visit some of my cousins. When everybody lived in New York, when all they lived in New York I would see them whenever I got to New York once a year, but now they’re scattering too. Retiring and dying, too. Not all of us are alive anymore in our generation.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

When you met your wife, did she have any idea of what your history had been during the war? Did you talk about that during your courtship at all?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

I don’t think so, I don’t think so. You’d have to ask her, but I don’t think so.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

And did that become a, later, as you recall, a topic...?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

That never became an issue, no, not really. No, it would have to have only become a topic of conversation... well it did. I had back problems, it’s now, what? 30-some years ago. And when I asked the surgeon what, was there any indication what the cause was. And he said, without knowing what my background was, he says, “Yeah, severe malnutrition during your growing years.” But other than that, normally it was not a topic of...

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Does she ask you at all about it now or in recent years? 27

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RG-50.549.05.0012

No, no.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Does she know now?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Oh yeah, she knows. I’m sure my mother told her probably a number of things, and occasionally... well, she’s seen the videos also. All the kids have seen them. I’m pretty sure, I may even have made copies for them. They’re aware of it, but it’s just a piece of history, not “the”. A lot of difference there.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

So, what happened after you got married? Did you move?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Yeah, we... a bit hectic few days. I had my Ph.D. orals on Thursday and a final in a class on Monday. We got married on Tuesday and we left during that, after the wedding and went around the coast of Houston, where I had to report for work a little less than two weeks later.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

For Shell?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Yeah.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

What were you doing for Shell?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

I was a research chemist. I stayed there for five years. I didn’t like what I was doing and started looking for another job and got a job with GE in Cincinnati and was there for almost ten years and then got transferred down here.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Where were your parents and your brother during those years?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

My parents, my dad actually died in ‘67 of a second heart attack. And my mother lived in New York, New York City. My brother, after he got out of the Service in early ‘53, got a job with a Dutch Ore company that had holdings all over the world. And matter of fact that’s why he changed his name. His last name is Rosley, ROS LEY. He anglicized it so he wouldn’t be mistaken for a German after the war, when there was still a lot of anti-German feeling all through the world. He was essentially overseas in one place or another until 1963, I believe, is when he came back after having been in Brazil for a number of years. And he lived in New York then until he retired, oh, some ten years or so ago and moved to Vermont. Where he still officially lives in Vermont.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

What was your real interest as far as your profession? Did you have any kind of guiding thing that you really loved to do?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Problem-solving using chemistry as a tool to solve a lot of technical problems. That was probably my forte. I was pretty good at it, at the time.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

So you were seeking work that, in which you were really able to do more of the problem solving type than... what didn’t you like about the job that you had in Texas? 28

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Shell? Well, it was a particular development scheme, you took one step forward and maybe two backwards. It just got to be a bore. And I asked for a different assignment and they said, “No, no, you’re doing too well. You’re getting where we want you to go.” And I didn’t want to go there. And so I started to look for something else. And the most interesting job that I was being considered for was with the Navy in San Francisco. But the chief of that office was on a year’s sabbatical in Belgium and they weren’t going to make a decision until he came back. And I wasn’t going to wait another year. And the assignment that they talked to me about in Cincinnati was pretty interesting. And I had a good time. It was nerve-racking, because I didn’t realize it at the time, it was ACE, the Atomic Energy Commission was the primary contractor. And so it was at the whims of the government. And two years after I was up there we went overnight from three thousand to three hundred employees. Fortunately I was one of the three hundred that they kept. I finally decided this is getting too much, these ups and downs, and mostly downs. And there was another one coming, so I decided to look around the company for other possible opportunities and they happened to have an opening down here, so I applied for it and got it.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

This is still for GE?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Yeah, in the appliance business here as an analytical chemist. And then a year later or two years later, | was made manager of analytical chemistry, chemistry and processes. But anyway, essentially a multitude of problems.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Did you have any preconceived notions about living in Kentucky?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Well... (Laughing) funny, because we talked about it yesterday. While we were still living in Ohio, the Riverfront Stadium was the big issue. It was being built, where to build it. They started construction. And they said when they got done with that they were going to build the biggest zoo in the world. They were going to put a fence around Kentucky. So, that answers that question, right? No, not really, didn’t know much about it. I was commuting for about six weeks, no, longer than that, two months. And so got acquainted a little bit with the area while I was still living up there. And there wasn’t that much difference. People are people everywhere. And a pretty nice group of people here that I worked with and worked for. Matter of fact, ’'m still friends with, fairly good friends with one of my former bosses. And I’m particularly happy about that.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

For your community of friends, you said... when did you move to Louisville?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

‘68, a little over 32 years ago.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

And your community of friends and so forth here are most, acquaintances here are mostly through work or...?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Work, neighbors, people I worked with or for, or that worked for me, neighbors, people who live in the area or met at the swimming pool, or wife was in a bridge club. And still have friends from Cincinnati days, too. In fact, one of our good friends, who was a neighbor in Cincinnati, now lives in Fort Worth. Known him for 35 years maybe. 29

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RG-50.549.05.0012

And no involvement with a synagogue here?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

No, not particularly. Now I’m on every Jewish organization’s mailing list.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Why is that?

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RG-50.549.05.0012

There was an article in the Courier Journal, maybe a year ago, whenever it was, about the Temple and how the Temple needed expansion and they were going to have a quiet campaign for construction funds, for building funds. So, I sent them a check with a note attached that “Since you’re having a quiet campaign I’m sending you a check on the QT.” And got a very nice letter back, as a matter of fact, a friend of mine who is quite involved with the Temple, the lady showed him the letter not knowing that we knew each other. But that got me on the mailing list for every Jewish organization locally, of course mostly asking for money.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

And you mentioned a little bit earlier about how you don’t really have contact with other Holocaust survivors in the area. And you’re not sure you want to.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Not on that basis. I mean, I’m not saying that I say, “You’re a Holocaust survivor, move aside, I don’t want a part of it.” What I’m saying is, if I happen to meet somebody who also is, I have no problem with that. That’s just... End of Tape 2, Side B 30 Tape 3, Side A

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RG-50.549.05.0012

Okay, this is tape number three, side A of an interview with Alexander Rosenberg. You were just saying about the Holocaust survivors in Louisville. Did you want to add anything else to what you had said?

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No not really, as I say, ’'m debating on whether to go to this meeting just out of curiosity. See, I don’t think I know anybody... well, I’m pretty sure I don’t. I’m sure they have to be all older folks. (Laughing.) SoI may. I haven’t decided yet. But no, no special interest as a criterion.

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RG-50.549.05.0012

How about other, just looking back over your years here after the war in the United States. Were you really mainly just focusing on your work and your family or did you have other interests or passions outside of that?

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