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/nhuman: potato flake starter / poor 2nd rise Hi,My bread, with a potato flake starter will barely rise to the height of the loaf pan on the 2nd rise.I have had a potato flake starter that I have used with great success for the last 20 years. Some months ago, out of the blue it began to smell like acetone and the loaves tasted terrible. Sadly, I had to get rid of it!Now I'm trying to start a new starter (3/4 c sugar, 3T potato flakes, 1 c warm water, 1 T yeast), letting it sit on the countertop all day, refrigerating it for a few days, then feeding the aforementioned recipe minus the yeast. It bubbled and did everything wonderfully, but when I made the bread using 1 c of the starter, the first rise was perfect, but once kneaded and formed into loaves for the second rise, they barely rose at all. I have tried several times now (restarting the starter) and keep getting the same results. This last time i restarted the starter, even the starter itself barely bubbled after being fed. I am perplexed! Any thoughts as to what I'm doing wrong??? /nai: When you said starter, I thought sourdough Obviously, that's not the case. How about some more details, please? The complete recipe and process, temperatures, times, and other useful information. That will give people an opportunity to help diagnose the problem. What might be easier for you to do, since you are using commercially produced yeast anyway, is to start a poolish or sponge for each batch of bread. One, you cut way down on your sugar intake. Two, there's no on-going maintenance issues. Three, you can use or not use potato flakes as you choose. Four, the bread will still taste great.Paul
/nhuman: Desem starter Ever since reading about Desem bread in Laurel's Bread book years ago, I've been eager to bake with it, but have felt a bit intimidated about the whole process of creating a healthy starter. I was wondering if anyone has a Desem starter they would be willing to share. I can offer an exchange of some starters I have collected, and will also pay for postage and handling. If you're interested, please send me a message. Thanks so much. /nai: Desem www.sysmatrix.net/~jkandell/Desem-web-jk6.doc is an interesting article on Desem, by Jonathen Kandell. In this article he presents a much less strict method of making desem, as well as suggestions for baking with it.
/nhuman: Giant holes in loaf :( I’ve found this site to be a great resource so I finally made an account! I’m a sourdough beginner - this is my fourth loaf. The first two turned out ok, kinda flat but decent crumb and tasted good. But the last two loafs have had giant holes on the bottom and I’m not sure why! The first one was comically huge, the second one not nearly as bad (pics attached). I’ve read in previous threads that it’s possibly due to too short of a bulk fermentation period, not sure if that’s the case here. I’ll share everything that might be relevant, any insight is much appreciated!My starter is pretty healthy, it doubles in size after less than a day. I feed it once a day (1:2:2 with equal parts AP and dark rye flour) if left on the counter, twice if left in the oven w/ the light on (the ambient temp in my kitchen is rarely above 70F so the temp difference is significant). The bulk ferment for the past 2 loaves have been for about 4-5 hours in the oven; I’ve attached a pic of what the most recent one looked like just before I shaped/proofed it. It looked done to me; there are bubbles under the surface, it was super soft/stretchy and the edges were slightly domed (but the top was still kind of flat - not sure how round it should be). After I did the pre-shape and shape, I put it in the fridge to proof overnight for about 12 hours. It seemed to pass the poke test before I baked it. I also attached a picture of the recipe I’m following. 51523651-9EA3-4308-94FB-57C941FD70B7.jpeg 477F9C67-CBFB-4B0E-8E4D-F915C66B0C64.jpeg 54916EE2-4A30-4F3D-8BF3-0FCA36B41357.jpeg /nai: Under Fermented From the look at the stage just before shaping and the baked loaf then i'd say it's under fermented. For now don't shape till the dough has doubled.
/nhuman: Folding Butter Experiment? Hi guys - Has anyone tried to fold in cubes of butter prior to overnight fridge fermentation? Kind of like folding in cubes of cheese...but with butter. I'm curious if it's even possible and if it is...what is it like when it's baked? Will it just be pockets of melted butter in my sourdough? Or would my dough melt the minute it's transferred into the oven? ? /nai: Pretty close to pockets. Pretty close to pockets. Enjoy!
/nhuman: Mad millies Instant Sourdough Starter - Question. Hi TFL,Ive recently purchased some Mad Millies Instant Sourdough Culture / Starter. My question is, Is there anyway to convert this into a regular starter which requires feeding and maintaining (Adding flour + Water) to help reduce the time it usually takes to create a nornal starter?Here is a link of the product Im talking about: http://www.madmillie.com/shop/Fermenting/Consumables/Instant+Sourdough+Culture+3+Sachet+Pack.htmlI do have a leaven going again but its weeks away.Any help is appreciated. /nai: Never heard of it But it looks like sourdough culture with added yeast! If it was just sourdough culture it'd need cultivating. The quick action is from the yeast. Does this make your final dough a true sourdough bread? I think not! At best you might get some sourdough flavour.Nothing more satisfactory then getting your own going from just flour and water. Till then use the sachets to keep you going. If you want to cultivate something from the satchets then add the culture to a 100% hydration flour water mix. Allow it to bubble up and use. Then hold some back to feed again just like a normal sourdough starter. Keep this till your own starter is ready.What is there to lose?
/nhuman: Sourdough formulas interpretation in Advanced Bread and Pastry Hello everyone,My name is Srdjan and this is my first post/question on this forum :)I recently acquired Advanced Bread and Pastry by Michel Suas, found a really good deal at the local bookstore.I found the book to be really informative and well written, even for beginners like myself.While I understand most of the principles and formulas described, I am not sure I totally understand sourdough formulas that have only levain and final dough formulas, without total formula, for example:San Francisco Sourdough bread:Levain formul/nai:Bread flour 95% (0.348 kg)Medium rye flour 5% (0.018 kg)Water 50% (0.183 kg)Starter (stiff) 80% (0.293 kg)Total: 230% (0.843 kg) Final dough formul/nai:Flour 100% (2.106 kg)Water 72.8% (1.534 kg)Salt 2.53% (0.053 kg)Levain 40% (0.843 kg)Total 215.33% (4.536 kg)Is total flour and hydration calculated by adding flour from final dough formula and levain formula, including starter?What is the best method for scaling such formulas to a desired weight?Thanks a lot!Srdjan /nai: Welcome! Welcome to TFL, Srdjan!Suas' formula format does not conform to current "best practices, as you have observed. However, you can use the baker's percentages he does provide for both the levain and the final dough to scale the formula as desired. David
/nhuman: New starter, 7 days in, do I still feed if no activity? Hello All!I'm 7 days in on a new starter. Building with a 70%/30% ratio of unbleached all purpose flour / 100% stone ground rye flour. Had 2x growth days 2 & 3, days 4 & 5 I had minimal growth but had that strong, pungent, funky/cheesy smell and very thin consistency... so I believe I was heading in the right direction. Now on day 7 smell is gone, starter has thickened up a little, no longer runny, so I think this is all good. But, absolutely no activity/growth for the past 2 days. For the first 4 days I was feeding 1:1:1 every 24 hours. Last 3 days been feeding 1:1:1 every 12 hours.Should I keep feeding even when I see no activity/growth or should I hold on feeding until I see activity/growth then pick up on feeding again?(Note: The pic is after I fed this morning. It looked identical before I fed. The slight bit of liquid you see just around the edge of the starter is water, not hooch. I washed the jar and forgot to totally dry it before adding starter back to the jar after this mornings feeding.)I'm new to this... looking for some guidance.Thanks!Sandy"UPDATE" - For those finding this thread in the future I've pulled the "Starter Log" detail up here to the beginning so you don't have to wonder what the answer was to my issue. Bottom line... I had overfed my starter by feeding multiple times when no activity was visible. This resulted in diluting my starting and looking as if my starter had failed. With the help of many in this forum I stopping the feeding for several days... it finally woke up as the active bacteria and yeast quantities recovered. Read full thread for some of the valuable discussion. Starter Log:Day 1Started with 1:1 (25g:25g) 70/30 flour mix of unbleached all purpose/100% rye (stone ground) & filtered/de-chlorinated water.Day 2Just stirred in the morning, did not feed. By 3PM starter doubled in volume (2X), by 9PM increased in volume to 2.5X (peak).Day 38AM the starter had fallen by 50% after peak. A strong funky/cheesy smell had developed. Consistency had thinned. First feeding: 1:1:1 (20g:20g:20g)Day 48AM 30% growth overnight. Bad smell getting much stronger. Consistency much thinner. Fed: 1:1:1 (16g:16g:16g)11PM 0% growth, Bad smell remains, consistency thinned even more, very pourable. Fed: 1:1:1 (15g:15g:15g)Day 51PM 0% growth overnight and up to 1PM, bad smell remains but not as strong, not as thin as Day 4. Fed: 1:1:1 (16g:16g:16g)Note: This is where I believe I started to go wrong... I continued feeding here and 3 more times when no activity was visible. This diluted my starter.Day 68AM 0% growth, bad smell is almost gone, consistency getting thicker, Fed: 1:1:1 (16g:16g:16g)9PM 10% growth, bad smell gone, continues to thicken, have to help pour from jar, Fed: 1:1:1 (16g:16g:16g)Day 78AM 0% growth, smell of flour, maybe a hist of sour, consistency continues to thicken, Fed: 1:1:1 (16g:16g:16g)8PM 0% growth, no change in smell, decided not to feed due to multiple feedings without activity. Thinking I may be diluting starter.Day 88AM 0% growth, no change in smell, consistency good, holds onto spatula. Moved to controlled temp: 78-80 degrees. Did not feed... watching and waiting.9PM 0% growth, no change in smell, consistency good, now see about 5 VERY TINY bubbles on surface. DId not feed... continuing to watch.(Note: pulled 5.5g from this starter to a new jar, fed 1:2:2 (5.5g:11g:11g) as a test. No activity here either.) Day 97AM 0% growth, no activity, no change, no smell, no tiny bubbles, nothing. Looks like a thick melted milk shake.I stirred, did not feed, placed in 80 degree environment. Will continue to watch and wait... not giving up. However, I did start a new starter :( so I guess I do have a little doubt.8PM 0% growth, no activity, a couple very small bubbles on surface, light sour smell is noticeable (hmmm...), consistency is good.I just stirred again and left in oven targeting a 78ºDay 107AM "IT'S ALIVE" woke up to about a 10% rise and several larger bubbles on the surface. Light sour smell still there. As I stirred starter it had a spongy consistency indicating CO2 had developed overnight. I think I am back in business.Did not feed, will continue to watch today, see what kind of activity develops, then will slowly pick up feeding and watching.12PM (noon) Peaked with 1.5x rise by noon. Fed 2:1:1 (22g:11g:11g) to watch activity before going into overnight.9PM Peaked about 2x. Fed: 1:1:1 (15g:15g:15g) Day 115AM was at it's peak, but no drop, so left alone. Pic of what it looked like at 5AM:7AM fell just a bit when I placed jar back down after peeking at it... so decided to feed. Fed: 1:1:1 (15g:15g:15g).Fast forward... 7 days later...Day 18 - First bake attempt... could be better... but I'll take it. :) /nai: Progression By now you should be feeding at a 1-2-2 ratio [starter-water-flour]. The goal is to grow a concentrated colony that has the strength of population to eat larger amounts of flour. Once it's doubling or tripling consistently every 4-8 hours with 1-2-2 feedings, it's ready to make levain. But it's helpful if this takes place in the mid-70s F.
/nhuman: Imitation SFSD: I Nailed It! After trying and trying, I think I've got my recipe for imitation sourdough or "sour bread" making an acceptable replica of the old-school sourdoughs we used to get from such S.F. area bakeries as Larraburu, Colombo, Toscana, Parisian and the rest.It is a basic yeasted loaf with sourness added. It is well known that the two principal souring agents in San Francisco sourdough are acetic acid (vinegar) and lactic acid. This recipe achieves its sourness by adding a specific quantity of these acids to the dough. It is cheating, yes, in the sense that the acids do not come from a live sourdough culture. Those acids would be present whether they came from a culture or were added by the baker.My previous efforts at sourdough using a traditional culture have been disappointing in that they lacked sufficient sourness. With this technique the baker has direct control over the sourness of the finished bread.Here is the recipe in baker's percentages:White flour: 100%Water: 60%Salt: 2%Instant Dry Yeast: 2.7%White vinegar: 1%Lactic acid liquid: 1%Here is a source of lactic acid liquid: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MBW7V2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 /nai: Ordered I've ordered that lactic acid. I'll report on my results.
/nhuman: Sourdough to flour ratio What does the ratio of starter to flour in levain and levain to the rest of the ingredients in the finished dough depend?For example: I'd like to design sourdough challah bread. Does the amount of levain depend on how much acidified dough you want to get mostly?Have a good day! /nai: The idea is, regardless of The idea is, regardless of the amount of starter and where it's added, more make things happen faster, including the production of acids. Enjoy!
/nhuman: Is my hybernated starter back-up coming to life? Hi, this is my first post.I am doing an experiment. I have a 9 month old active, well-established starter that is in regular use. When 6 weeks old I took a small portion and refrigerated as a backup. 7 months later as I forgot about it, I decided to experiment to see if it is still alive.I fed at 1: 1: 1: twice a day, all purpose and once with whole wheat. End of day 1 I saw a couple bubbles but otherwise very still, thinking the bubbles are from stirring.Next morning, 24 hours later, there was nothing, no activity at all. End that day, so 36 hours later, I saw maybe a 25% rise. Next morning, 48 hours later, it had nearly doubled and small bubbles throughout. Would you say that this activity means the starter survived or does it mean brand new fermentation and starting over with a new flour and water I put in? I'm just not sure if I just started a brand new starter or if it is the original coming to life. It will go in the trash regardless, like I said it's just an experiment. /nai: IMO If it takes as long to revive a starter as it does to make one from scratch then it's a new starter. Yours looks good and has come back to life in a relatively quick time. Can we be 100% sure it's not a new starter? No. Can we be confident that because of the quick amount of time and with very few feeds it came back to life and is therefore your old starter revived? Yes. What I would have done is only feed it bread flour as this way there's less chance of introducing new yeast and bacteria and more chance of reviving the old starter. What I don't believe is the story of finding yeasts in an ancient clay jar from Egypt and spending weeks to 'revive' it results in bringing back to life a millennia old starter.
/nhuman: Please help troubleshoot! Underproofed? Overproofed? Starter problems? At the start of the pandemic, I had a minor panic about not being able to access good bread and decided I would learn how to bake my own sourdough. I got some starter from a family member. I used Maurizio's simple sourdough recipe, but substituted my own flour mixture (mostly AP and a bit of whole wheat, basically all I had on hand). After 2 or 3 bakes that ended in pancake loaves, I bought a thermometer, and my bakes got instantly better. Open crumb, delicious crispy crust, incredible taste. My family told me my loaves were better than the local $7 sourdough loaves we had been buying previously, so I baked and baked and baked and it was glorious. Then, I moved out of my parents' house. A few months later, after I had neglected my starter and subsequently thrown it out, I decided to start again. I made starter from scratch a few weeks ago, which I'm currently feeding twice a day after it grows about 3x with whole wheat flour. I followed the same recipe to a T and my loaves strangely weren't rising at all, so I chucked the first batch before baking. The second batch, my starter was looking good, my levain was looking good, I made the dough, everything looked ok, I baked and.... pancakes. Gummy insides. It was almost as if it wasn't cooked it was that gummy (but it was - I checked with the thermometer). I thought, ok, maybe its underproofed. It wasn't that puffy or jiggly after I proofed it, so maybe my kitchen is cold (it also fluctuates a lot). I made it again yesterday, this time controlling for temperature by keeping everything inside my microwave (75-77 degrees) and... MORE pancakes. The crust this time also wasn't overly crunchy and had softened up by the time I cut into it. So I seem to be getting worse outcomes? My loaves aren't rising a lot but they never did before I moved either. The poke test outcome depends on where I poke the dough, but at no point did it seem overly over or under proofed. Just maybe slightly more or less in different spots? I'm leaning towards thinking they're overproofed. As an experiment, I let my 2nd loaf of my last bake sit on the counter for 1.5 hours after I took it out of the fridge, and got the exact same result as the first loaf. Perhaps that won't do much but I figured if it came out of the fridge it might continue to proof? Not sure! I'm going to try another bake this weekend and cut down the proofing time, just to troubleshoot. But I'm really looking for some guidance as to what the issue might be so I can stop wasting flour! Here's what I did last time: Levain - 38g starter, 76g water, 38g white flour, 38g whole wheat Kept levain in microwave at approx. 75-76 degrees. After 5 hours, levain was bubbly, had doubled in size, and was sour. Autolysed 773g AP white and 165g whole wheat and 603g water for one hour. Kept in same microwave. At start of bulk - levain was even more bubbly, rose some more. FDT ended up being about 79 degrees. Bulk was 4 hours, at 76-77 degrees, with 3 stretch and folds. The dough temp stayed at about 78-79 the whole time. The dough rose, not too much, but had some bubbles, and felt strong. Did the poke test and while my results varied depending on where I poked, in most spots it didn't spring back super quickly. Divided and preshaped, let rest on counter for 25 mins, shaped into boule, and let rest 20 mins in covered bowls (I don't have bannetons). I'm pretty gentle with my shaping. Put in fridge for about 15 hours. I checked my fridge temp and it was pretty cold - around 0 degrees. Slashed with a lame, then immediately baked in pre-heated dutch oven at 450 degrees for 20 mins, and when I took the lid off, there was no oven spring at all. Waited 2 hours to cut into it. Sadness ensued. /nai: Under fermented I think it's needs a longer bulk ferment time. Why do you move onto shaping when you thought the dough hadn't risen much? Perhaps you need to be a bit more adventurous. And on top of that your fridge is very cold. So you have a poorly bulk fermented dough which comes to a complete stop in the fridge then you bake it.
/nhuman: Another Starter Troubleshooting Hello! I created a starter this past May and it was quite active and happy for a good while and giving me some good boules! However, I had to move and go on vacation which was then followed by the start of the school season leading to me forgetting to feed a couple of times (worst was roughly 4 days).Since then I've been trying to get more on-track feeding my starter daily while also putting it in a fresh jar each time (60g starter+ 60g AP flour+ 60g water) but I'm seeing zero activity now. It's been a couple of weeks and I'm seeing no rise and fall, no bubbles, barely any scent (only sour no fruity yeast scents). Is my starter dead? Any surefire ways people have used to revive theirs? Thanks!! /nai: Well continuing to feed it Is not going to help. If I were you I'd keep it in a warm place and forget about it. In the meantime get started on a new one in case this one is more than just hibernating.
/nhuman: Little or no rise in bulk fermentation/proofing stages Weak starters/underproofed loaves????I've been baking sourdough bread off and on for about 6 months now, trying various techniques and recipes. So far, I've had only modest success; my loaves taste good, but are lacking in the crumb department and don't seem to get a good rise. After some psuedo-scientific experimenting over the past two weeks, taking great care with timing, temperature and building gluten structure with laminating, stretching and folding, I am coming to the conclusion that the chief problem may be with inadequate yeast activity. I'm thinking this for two reasons:First, it seems to me that my starter or levain seem to take abnormally long to mature. My usual starter is made with a 1 part starter/2 parts water/2 parts flour, using 50% bread flour,25% rye and 25% whole wheat. I use the same mix for my levain. Today, I experimented with another jar of starter feeding it only bread flour to see if there was a difference. As the photo shows, the starter with the whole grains has larger bubbles, but the overall increase in volume is about the same as for the plain bread flour. But what is most notable is that it took 9 HOURS at an ambient room temperature of about 74 degrees for these babies to double in size and I suspect there's still plenty of food left for them to continue growing for hours more before deflating, because on occasion I've forgotten to put my starter in the fridge once it gets a good feed to put it in suspended animation until I want to bake again and have discovered it on the countertop after 24 hours, when it has finally tripled in size AND not yet deflated. At the warmer temperature inside my oven with the light on and door cracked (at least 84 degrees), it usually takes at least 6 hours to double in size. The second reason I suspect slow yeast activity is that after my bulk ferment of up up to 6-8 hours, there is often still no appreciable rise in the dough and no visible bubbles on the surface or sides, despite a consistent dough temperature of 76-78 degrees. I will get decent oven spring when baked, after a long overnight refrigerated proof/retard however. SO....if I"m right, what is the best way for me to compensate for this? Simply add a WHOLE lot more time to the process to let my levain ripen and the dough to rise a bit before the long retard in the refrigerator? I fear this could turn baking into a three day marathon, however. Perhaps, make my levain with a higher share of starter in it? maybe 1 part starter to one part water and one part flour? Use more levain in the dough? I should note that I have tried over the past months a variety of things to strengthen the starter...different feeding ratios, different temperatures, feeding regularly for 2-3 days before making the levain on the day I make my dough, etc. As noted above, a warmer ambient temp in an unheated oven does speed things up at the levain stage, but putting the dough in the oven with just the light on for part of the bulk fermentation or proofing before a long overnight refrigerated proofing/retard made no difference over a 6 hour period Suggestions, please? I'm getting frustrated. /nai: Question Your starter build is 1:2:2 and takes 9 hours to double which granted is slow. Before we delve more deeply into your starter can you answer this... If your high inoculation starter build takes 9 hours to double then why would a more modest starter to flour ratio in the final dough only get 6-8 hours? Perhaps use your starter as an indicator of what to expect in the final dough. Why not try a starter build overnight then come morning make the dough and don't move on to shaping until you see significant activity. However long that takes and you have all day. This is not the answer you're looking for but it will be a step in the right direction. Can you get a good bread out of the starter at this given moment in trying to read the starter and judging the dough? If your starter rises then so should your bread. Once you've tried that and get a decent result then it's just a question of how to speed it up. If it's not a step in the right direction then it might be a few steps back when troubleshooting the starter itself. P.s. If your starter is capable of tripling then don't use when doubled but wait till it's tripled. Aim to have the starter ready and peaked by morning so start the starter build a bit earlier if need be. Also your starter jars have sloping walls which slightly widen so what looks like doubling can actually be more.
/nhuman: When is the proofing done? Hey all - its my first time here just registered to get involved with the various baking forums.I recently followed the Sough Dough Starter guide from the Clever Carrot website and its all gone quite well. I am on day 6 and my starter is doubling in size roughly when fed within 2 hours. I created a levain from my main starter (this doubled over night) so I am attempting to make my first loaf.The recipe is the one off the clever carrot again.. Sourdough Bread: A Beginner's Guide - The Clever CarrotAll is going well so far and I am just on the bulk rise but not sure how long to do this for - it states that the rise can take between 2 and 12 hours depending on temp (which is fair enough). However is there anyway to tell for sure when its done with the bulk rise? I read about pressing it in and seeing if it springs back is that a good test?My temp is about 23-24c in a cupboard with my boiler so I'd imagine it might take 6'ish hours.. but any ideas on how to check so I don't let it over rise? Currently I am about 5 hours in and I'd say its almost doubled in size but not quiteCheersTim /nai: how much rise well, a complete recipe should really tell you how much of a rise you are trying to achieve during bulk ferment, or include pictures or other descriptions of how the dough will look/behave when it is done proofing. maybe you can find some similar recipes online with more details? i like breadtopia’s recipes and they often include videos and/or pictures. this appears to be an all-white flour, fairly low hydration recipe. if the dough has already doubled in size, i’d move on to the next step, but might be concerned it is overproofed. i think it is rare for a sourdough recipe to shoot for doubling (100% increase in volume), i see ~50% increases suggested more often, but those are for higher hydration loaves, so, take that with a grain of salt. ;)good luck with your first loaf! it will probably be tasty no matter what, and you can always come back for post-bake advice before you try again. looking back (~8 years), my first sd loaves were underproofed and poorly shaped, but (a) i thought they were great 😆 and (b) they got better 😀. this forum has been a big part of the improvement.-c
/nhuman: Overproofing & crust texture? Troubleshoot me, friends Hi there,I started baking sourdough in April and have done it almost every week since and fallen in love with the process. Now i know it's going to be part of my life it's time to get serious about my (usually tasty but not so perfect) results and tweak my technique.This week I made Maurizio Leo's Country Loaf with a young levain and long autolyse. www.theperfectloaf.com/country-sourdough-less-levain-longer-autolyse[80% hydration, 900g organic stoneground white bread flour (from UK so soft), 100g organic stoneground wholemeal bread flour (from UK so soft), 15% levain].The bulk was supposed to go 4.5 hours but after my last S&F (1.5hrs in) there was already lots of activity. I cut it short by 1 hour. It was in oven with light on at around 27 degrees. Alas i fear I overproofed. It spread badly in preshape and the dough was 'flabby' coming out of the fridge after ov'night proof and degassed as soon as i scored it. It had a decent rise in the oven but spread to the sides quite a bit rather than the top (images show dough at end of bulk and crumb).The crust was crusty when i pulled it out of the oven, but quickly went soft and by the time we ate it (3.5 hrs later) was pretty much totally soft.I have 2 questions.1. am i right in thinking this was overproofed? would it have been more open crumbed and had more height if i'd cut bulk by even more time? 2. how can i get my crust, crustier? is it connected to the overproof? all advice and insight hugely welcomed. thank you all. A. /nai: Whoops... that's not... "white" bread flour, based on the color of dough and crumb.That is a common problem when using a foreign formula with local ingredients... the ingredients just don't match up even though the names of the ingredients might lead you to believe they do. "white" flour in the US would be .50 to .55% ash, or 72 to 75% extration rate.Based on the tan color, you obviously used a very "bran-y" flour for your "white bread" flour.And high bran (high ash, high extraction) flour ferments much quicker than true white flour, due to the enzymes in the bran.Your crumb also shows slight overfermentation with the open hole crumb on top of a denser lower portion.--The next clue about it being the wrong flour for Maurizio's (US) "white flour" is that it is stone ground. When sifting or bolting stone ground flour, the miller just plain cannot get the bran/ash down to the levels of what is called "white flour" in North America. It takes multi-million dollar roller mills to achieve that low level of bran in refined flour. Your (bolted) stone ground flour was likely no less than 85% extraction, which is more or less equivalent to a mix of 50/50 white flour and whole grain.The net being, your use of 900 g bolted stone-ground plus 100g whole meal likely worked out to be the equivalent of what in the US would be 60% whole grain and 40% white refined flour.Not that there is anything bad with that.... but Maurizio's amount of levain, and ferment/proof times are based on 90% white flour/10% whole grain, not 40/60. More bran means less levain and/or shorter ferment/proof times are needed.And that's likely how and why your loaf overproofed.So.... there are two possible paths: either use ingredients that match Maurizio's or find a recipe that better matches your ingredients.Anyway... the loaf still looks good and tasty. Happy baking!--(and you might want to contact the miller and inform them that their flour description is misleading.)
/nhuman: Tartine bread please help Tartine Bread I am new to sourdough bread baking. I have had a couple of dozen attempts at Tartine Bread as per the Chad Robertson book. I have tried to adhere to the quantities and temperatures quoted within the book but as the attached picture shows, I keep getting large and inconsistent holes. I have tried a variety of bulk proving times between 2 hours - 4.5 hours and I always get some large holes throughout. I know this technique but I'm at a bit of a loss as to whether this is over proved, under proved or solely poor technique. The attached picture had a bulk prove time of 3 hours and a final prove in the fridge of 11 hours. Would anyone with an experienced eye be able to tell me if they believe this is under/over proved or poor technique? I appreciate any feedback at all Thank you /nai: I think it looks under fermented If you have tried varying the times of bulk ferment from 2 - 4 hours at the desired temperature with the same results then I can only suggest you either go for an even longer bulk ferment or you need to take a closer look at your starter/levain build. Tell us more about your starter, your maintenance and levain build.
/nhuman: An observation about starters Made a starter with 50g yeast water + 50g whole rye flour. When it bubbled up and peaked I then stirred it back down, completely degassing, after which it bubbled up much stronger and peaked higher! Well first things first... A starter has a lot more life left in it after peaking. Not only that but it seems to be stronger and has the ability to rise more. I'm wondering how one might use this info in a rye bread. Whether this translates into starters using other flours I'll need to experiment but as for rye this shows promising and interesting results. /nai: Do you mean the idea is to Do you mean the idea is to stir the starter before mixing the bread dough, and let it peak again?
/nhuman: Cold weather starter So the temperatures in my area dropped suddenly last week and I'm having a hell of a time trying to adjust the timing and ratio to feed my starter. A once a day feed seems too long (is soupy the next day), but a 12 hour feed doesn't seem long enough. I've tried bumping it to 1:6:6 for a one day feed schedule, and also dialed it back to a 1:2:2 for a 12 hour twice a day feed schedule. Neither seems to work well for me, and I can't seem to get the starter to triple anymore (I hit doubling, but not always on the 12 hour schedule). Just looking for tips for how to maintain my starter in a way where it's robust enough for bread baking (I've had a few underproofed loaves while trying to adjust to the cooler weather). My kitchen is between 60-65 degrees F in the winter. I am feeding with 80% bread flour and 20% rye. In the summer I was using AP flour and it was fine, but I changed it bc it looked like it needed more help. Thank you so much for any insight! /nai: You need to either find a You need to either find a warm spot for your starter, or create one. Something like transparent storage container and pet heating pad with a digital temperature controller will do the trick.
/nhuman: Does sourdough absorb heat? It seems that at some point even if its cold the dough will heat up and overproof if I dont watch it It's the weirdest thing. Even if I dont supply heat (with an oven light or cup of hot water for example), it seems that a cold dough will eventually just heat up and then overproof if I dont watch it and I cant figure it out. Is it an endothermic reaction or something? /nai: Yeast makes heat https://www.google.at/search?q=does+yeast+produce+heat%3F&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-at&client=safari
/nhuman: Looking for crumb feedback What do you guys think of the crumb of my tiger bread roll? I am super new to sourdough baking so I really have no idea if it's good or bad. I used an 8 day old starter and the sourdough flavor was nice and strong. /nai: Great I don't think I've ever had a tiger roll, and I don't know what you are looking for. I'd be happy with this crumb, looks nice and even! If you like it, it's all that matters, there is no sourdough police who will give you trouble for a "bad" crumb :)Welcome, and well done, great beginning with such a young starter!
/nhuman: Spreadsheets and Seed Culture My spreadsheet is setup according the BBGA standards, with the exception of the seed culture. Up until now it is handled as follows.The seed is not listed in the total doughThe seed is listed in the levain (pre-ferment section) and is calculated as a percentage of the total flour in the levain.The seed is not added up in the total weight of the levain.The original seed is expected to be saved out of the total levain to perpetuate the starter.The reason the seed is handled this way is because I am a stickler for accurate hydration. When the seed is calculated as an ingredient in the total dough, there is no accounting for the flour and water within the seed as it relates to the dough hydration.Here is my spreadsheet. It may paint a better picture. Notice how the 33g of seed culture in cell G(37) is not totaled in the total levain weight in cell G(51)Do you have a better way to calculate this, while taking into account the flour and water within the seed culture? /nai: Thus is a test - https://1drv Thus is how I look at it - it's either wet or dry - choose one and don't worry about it.This is the Phazulator (right click and download - it's excel spread). The seed is dry and added as such, if there's a soaker as they call it, it's wet and also added as such. Everything is also calculated as such. Bakers math says a % of total flour, so that's what you get, but you have the option to add a % in a preferment, all is added to total weight as that's what a total weight is - the total weight of the project. Everything is changeable, and changing anything changes everything. To the right are cells you can use to track changes .I remember kinda doing something with a spread with you a assume back (years maybe) but never got back to it - golf. Golf season is now done, I was bored, saw more posts on spreads and decided to whip this up. 20 minutes to do the math - 5 hrs cuz I didn't like the look and flow and kept changing things - can ya tell I was really boredEnjoy! Oh - did I mention phone friendly
/nhuman: Ridding the dough of thiols - but what is what of 5:3:5? My dough turn to batter, so better go to battle.Found here on forum the cure beeing feeding thrice a day and keep it in the refrigerator (for some 10 days) Now, feeding 5:3:5 does tell us the ratio but not the components. Well, starter, water and flour one can surmise, but witchoneiswhat? s:f:w? f:w:s?.. Is it removing excess starter until, say, 50g is left, add 30 g of water and another 50g but this time flour?Thanks in advance! /nai: Normally, the first number Normally, the first number in a refresh ratio is starter. Many use the next number as water, though I don't know if that is universal. I did check this post, and Debra Wink did mean starter water flour http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18144/sourdough-loosing-elasticity-please-help#comment-121566 but while there are 3 numbers, there are really two ratios. If we ignore the starter, the ratio of water to water tells us the ending hydration. So if you are shooting for a 60% hydration starter, it would be 30 water 50 flour. That is what Debra was doing, though if you wanted a different hydration starter, you could adjust those numbers. The second ratio is the starter to flour. That lets us know how much food the starter has , which in turn will let you know, assuming all other factors are equal, how long it will take for the starter to exhaust its food supply. So a 1 : 1 :1, the starter will exhaust its food supply much quicker than a 1:3:3 refresh.We use ratios so you can adjust to your needs. I typically keep a small amount of starter in the fridge, and when I refresh, I may go with 5 grams starter, 10 grams water, 10 grams flour. Basically that means I will end up with a 100% hydration starter ( since the water amounts and the flour amounts are equal ) and because the flour amount is twice the starter amount, the starter will last longer before it runs out of food than a 1 : 1:1. Yes, you want to remove the excess starter - otherwise, you would quickly fill a pool with starter. What is excess is up to you, but I don't see any problem with discarding all but 50 grams.
/nhuman: How brown is too brown?! My go-to recipe is Ken Forkish’s Country Blonde sourdough from ‘Flour Water Salt Yeast’.I was a complete newbie back in April, and after months of practice, trial and error, and some invaluable advice from members on here, I now get really consistent results every week!I love a dark, crunchy crust, but do these loaves look over-done? Are slightly burnt edges taking it too far?! Inside they are light and soft. 7450F963-9E0F-42D1-A503-081E4CF33C30.jpeg /nai: Looks fine to me! Some may Looks fine to me! Some may call that “just over” but I like it. Bravo.
/nhuman: Khorasan (Kamut) with long fermentation I'm thinking of doing a no knead bread using Khorasan.The recipe will be something like this... 500g kamut flour (100%)375g water (75%)10g salt (2%)5g starter (1%) This is a variation of the "Do Nothing Bread" where you mix the dough and bulk ferment for 24 hours, giving one fold at the 12 + hour mark. Then a shape and final proof for one hour.This works very well for an all bread flour recipe (or a mix of whole wheat and bread flour albeit with higher hydration of up to 90%). My question is... how would khorasan flour fare with a long bulk ferment? I believe that khorasan is a type of ancient durum wheat and I think durum wheat wouldn't fare so well with this method due to how quickly the flour degrades. /nai: Prepare for flatness I worked with home-milled kamut (Khorasan) a few years ago. It had a few interesting characteristics to learn about.It has a lovely color and flavor-golden and nutty. But the quality of the gluten was very loose-any 100% kamut loaf I made was very flat, unless supported by a pan. Very extensible. It became a favorite for pizza dough or any other flat loaf I made.Additionally, it went from underproofed to overproofed in about 5 minutes. If you didn't catch it, it was likely to collapse when it hit the oven. At the time I worked with kamut, I was not into extensive autolysing or long retards. However, I would concur that it may not be amenable to those procedures. I guess the only way to find out is to do a few bakes and see.I believe you have worked with spelt. Doesn't that have similar characteristics?Sidenote:Lechem, I am so glad you post such detailed info on your experiences with different ingredients. The more I read and the limited experience I have with ancient grains, the more I understand why modern wheat became immediately popular with bakers. It is so much easier to work with to achieve any type of bread you may want- crusty, soft, chewy, light, robust, fluffy,etc. But all the grains have great attributes and it would be so sad to lose any of them. When I work with a new (to me) grain, it is like opening a gift when the loaf is done-even if it takes a few times to learn its attributes.
/nhuman: Making a Sourdough starter with Water kefir I am using wholegrain rye flour with water kefir and i do no discarding, its already day 12 but theres only bubbles no rising or doubling in size , does anyone share similar experience? Or maybe you just have some advice? /nai: Keep going - except thicken Keep going - except thicken it up. Enjoy!
/nhuman: Pumpkin sourdough Hello home bakers :)Sharing a few pics of my recent pumpkin sourdough loaves. /nai: Beautiful bread! I especially love the creative, pumpkin-shaped loaf.Yippee
/nhuman: SD Brown n Serve Rolls? Hey... you know those Brown n Serve Rolls that you buy once a year at the supermarket?Yeah, those.You get them for Thanksgiving... with the once-a-year turkey (Why do I only do this once a year???).Anyway... can something that light and soft and moist be made with sourdough? I want to try it...Dabrownman (of course) did one but even HE pitches in some instant dried yeast.Murph /nai: Dinner rolls Hi there, Maurizio just put some up the other day - this kind of thing? 100% SD!https://www.theperfectloaf.com/super-soft-sourdough-rolls/They look amazing.
/nhuman: Pressure-caramelized oat bread by Modernist Cuisine Made this loaf by Francisco Migoya because I was curious what the wheat gluten may add to the texture!I don't think I saw much difference in the final bread texture.. If not, I found the crumb to be more dense that I am used to in loaves.I read that it can help in breads using flour with less gluten (rye..). Maybe it's cause I used bread flour?I was wondering if anyone had experimented with wheat gluten with good results? Thanks :) P1120024 (2).JPG /nai: More gluten=more chew Think of bread as a bunch of balloons held together by netting.If the netting is thin and flimsy (low amount of gluten strands), it will not hold many balloons and the bunch will be small as the balloons escape.In bread terms, it will be either a crumbly,cakey loaf or a flat,dense loaf, depending on the proofing. If the netting is thick and robust(bread flour or added vital wheat gluten), it can hold quite a few balloons and given the proper time (proper proof), the netting can be filled to capacity.This loaf can be dense and chewy if underproofed, lofty and slightly chewy if properly proofed and dense and chewy if overproofed and fallen.If the netting gets old and fragile (overproofed,over acidifies & eaten away, destroyed by enzymes), more balloons will escape as you fill the netting and the bunch will be small.The dough pulls apart with broken hairlike strings on each end. This doughs chemical bonds are breaking and it is very fragile. This bread is usually gummy and dense.The perfect balloon bunch is when the netting is firm but pliable,filled to capacity but not too thick. In bread terms, there are a million ways to achieve this using low protein flour to high protein flour. It is all in the handling.You can start out with low gluten that is properly mixed/activated, properly proofed that can end with a tender,feathery loaf. You can start with a high gluten flour and do a controlled proof to degrade the gluten to a less chewy state (traditional pannettone doughs or loaves made with long,acidic ferments), or you can start with high gluten dough, proof quickly (a relative term) to maximum height with no gluten degradation and have a slightly chewier loaf.So when you experiment with bread, it is NOT just the recipe with ingredient amounts that affects the outcome but the handling and environment the dough is made in-ambient temperature,humidity,heat of baker's hands. Even a different crop of the same grain can affect the outcome. Flour,water,salt,yeast-one of the most complex simplicities that exists.Have delicious fun
/nhuman: High hydration newbie and tight crumb 5E6E67B6-EAC6-4A0B-91EB-098D2C9D88A2.jpeg Hi all,I’m new here - wondering if anyone can offer some advice. I’ve started experimenting with high hydration sourdough (today’s loaf is 82%) and thought I would be rewarded with a beautiful open crumb - alas. It’s still fairly tight with a few larger holes. Does anyone have any ideas on what I might be doing wrong or could do differently for a slightly more even and more open crumb? My recipe is roughly as follows:450g Shipton no.450g Rye400g water @ around 35c100 levain (25g white starter with 10% rye then fed with 50g rye and 50g water)12g salt- 30 min autolyse, levain added with rubaud mix method until incorporated, salt added and mixed again with rubaud. 5-6 coil folds - started about 20 mins after salt added then subsequent folds done again when dough has relaxed each time - tends to be around 20/30/45/1hr/1hr between folds. bulk around 21C-23C for 5-6 hours until dough is billowy (never really sure how far to take this)Shape into batard (usually no preshape as dough feels strong) and overnight retard at 3C then bake next AM.Thanks in advance! /nai: Handle roughly during ferment Handle roughly during ferment, gentle during proof and proof long enough (longer = get bigger holes). Enjoy!
/nhuman: Starter doubled in size 2 hours after feeding - ok to use? Hi everyone, this is my first post but I’ve been coming onto the website for a while looking at all your tips - thanks to you all. My question... if my sourdough starter is bubbling and doubling in size after 2 hours, and passing the “float test” is it good to go? I’ve watched countless videos and read loads of different recipes and they all say to wait at least 4 hours after feeding. I live in the tropics and humidity is high. My previous loaves have been really airy and bubbly but the latest one is definitely more dense and I think it’s because I left the starter a little longer after feeding and perhaps it had passed its peak. Does the starter always need 4 hours? Should I be feeding it more? The current ratio for feeding is 1:1:1 should I change it? Or just keep doing what seems to have worked pretty well so far? Thanks - from a sourdough newbie :) /nai: The amount of time it takes The amount of time it takes your starter to peak will vary based on different factors. As you mentioned temperature plays a big role. Since you said you live in the tropics I imagine your ambient room temperature is higher than most. I used to live in Puerto Rico so I remember how hot it can get. So let’s say your ambient temperature if 95, your starter will peak much faster than someone who’s temperature is 75! If you want to prolong the time to peak you can reduce your room temperature (assuming you have air conditioning), place it in a cooler spot, feed it colder water, or change your feeding ratio (as you mentioned) so that the starter has more food to get through. :) there may be more factors too but those are some of the ones I’m aware of.
/nhuman: Levain Calculation Certain repeated questions turn up from time to time that are valuable, but the replies required are lengthy. This post was written with the thought that it can be linked for future replies to the question of Levain and how it is calculated.There are 2 main methods used to calculate the percentages of Levain used in a formula.Total levain weight divided by the flour weight of the final doughLevain flour divided by TOTAL flour used in the recipe The various methods of calculating Levain can be confusing. Realize that many highly respected bakers use either of these methods. Method #1 - Total levain weight (including the water and flour) divided by the flour weight of the final doughThis is best explained as the Levain being considered an ingredient according to Bakers Percentages, the same way salt would be calculated in a formula. It is important to realize that the weights of both the water and flour in the Levain are not part of the Total Water and Toal Flour in the formula.Example -Flour = 1000g (100% Bakers Percentage)Water = 700g (70%)Salt = 20g (2%)Levain = 240g (24%) - Since the hydration of the Levain is not specified we commonly assume 100% hydrationTotal Dough Weight = 1960gHydration = (Total Water = 700+120=820 ) + (Total Flour = 1000+120=1120) 820/1120=73.2% HydrationMethod #2 - Levain flour divided by TOTAL flour (including the flour in the Levain) used in the formulaThis method is called the Percentage of Pre-Fermented Flour (PFF). It is this method that has been adopted as the standard by the Bread Bakers Guild of America (BBGA). Most bakers on The Fresh Loaf use this one.Example -Total Flour = 1000g (100%)Total Water = 700g (70%)Salt = 20g (2%)PPF (Pre-Ferment) = 12% Levain Hydration = 100% - With this method the hydration of the Levain is always specified. In this example there is 120g water and 120g flour in the levain.Total Dough Weight = 1720gHydration = (Total Water 700g) + (Total Flour 1000g) 700/1000= 70% HydrationNOTE - the dough minus the Levain contains 580g Water and 880g Flour.Since this post was published as a reference for future questions, please let me know if you find errors or have additional pertinent information. /nai: But how much starter? Thank you so much for this clear explanation. One thing I am still confused about is what percentage of starter to add to the Levain. In other words, when I started baking sourdough, I followed recipes that would call for making a levain the night before with 100g water, 100g flour and 1 tablespoon active starter.I am now trying to move away from the "recipe" model and work off of baker's percentages... but most discussions about doing so do not include the amount of starter. So in your Method 2 example above -- how much starter would you mix with the equal parts flour and water when making the levain the night before?
/nhuman: Chocolate and Cherry Sourdough from Moderniste Cuisine I have been eyeing this recipe for a long time. I finally screwed up the courage to bake it this weekend...and wow, what a spectacular result. I followed the original recipe with one exception; I omitted the commercial yeast, and added 90 minutes to the bulk fermentation time.https://modernistcuisine.com/recipes/chocolate-and-cherry-sourdough/ IMG_20190211_120821.jpg IMG_20190211_153343.jpg chocolate cherry recipe.JPG /nai: Super nice, Bart! How would you describe the flavor and texture?Do the cherries make it sweet?Danny
/nhuman: Dry Layer on Top of Starter? 20201103_175221.jpg Hello Everyone, I'm new to sourdough baking - I've only done two loaves so far. I'm kind of stumbling in the dark in regard to my starter (homemade) and I'm looking for some insight. I have a 100% hydration einkorn starter (Leroy). I feed him once a day and he rises nicely within the expected 4-12 hour timeframe. I wash the jar at every feeding, and he only gets distilled water (or filtered when I don't have distilled on hand). I feed him twice a day two days before baking day, and he usually peaks about four hours when he is very active. He looks completely normal while he's rising. However, once he peaks and starts to deflate, the bubbles at the top dry up and form a layer on the top of the starter. The top then has this white-ish hue to it. Here's the dreaded question: is this mold??? At first I was mixing the layer into the starter when I did my feedings, but now I peel the layer off the top and take out the stuff from underneath. As I said, I've made two loaves with him. Multiple people ate the first loaf, and I'm currently eating through my second loaf. No one has experienced any food poisoning symptoms. Does bread from bad/moldy starter make you sick, or would the mold get killed in the baking process? Here's the second dreaded question: should I throw him out? I've started another starter to compare, and so far Leroy IV (there were some accidents that happened to Leroy II and Leroy III) does NOT have this dry layer on top. I've added some pictures (one with flash and one without) for people to take a look at. This is my first post and it seems like I added the pictures twice - sorry about that. Hopefully the diagnosis is not as dire as I am thinking! Tks! Sam 20201103_175221.jpg 20201103_175244.jpg /nai: Leroy looks good! Hi Sam, Leroy looks healthy to me! My starter also dries out on the top layer (I live in a very dry environment), and I just stir it in. Mold would take a LOT longer to develop and is usually pinkish/orangish. I wouldn't worry about washing your jar so often either (I wash my crock maybe every other week if it gets really gunky?). Happy baking!
/nhuman: How do you guys slice your loafs? Is it just me or are these high hydration loafs incredibly tricky to slice? And yes I'm waiting several hours prior to slicing... /nai: Hey! What do you mean by Hey! What do you mean by tricky to slice? Are your loaves gummy/sticking to your bread knife when you slice them? If you have a photo of the crumb that will probably help us to see what's up!
/nhuman: I was told to put some dough in a very small jar while i'm doing bulk ferment and wait for it to double. Is that right? I was told to put a small amount of dough in a small, straight sided jar alongside the rest of my dough while it bulk ferments. Once the dough in the small jar has double, bulk ferment is done. Does that sound right to you? I've done it once so far and got a pretty nice bread but thought maybe it was a tad overproofed. /nai: If the bread was good, it If the bread was good, it sounds about right, although I would suggest to try different levels of fermentation. Enjoy!
/nhuman: What am I doing wrong? (Starter and Levain) - Flour Water Salt Yeast book Hello,I've been following Ken Forkish's Flour Water Salt Yeast and working through all the recipes in the book. I've been loving it so far and recommend it to any new bread bakers. I'm now at the section where you develop your own levain and after my 2nd failed attempt, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. After following all the instructions and using the levain in a dough recipe, it doesn't rise as it should.One note that makes this difficult for me: I don't have a sense of smell (I'm smell blind) so I can't follow the odor queues. To compensate, I'm very meticulous about recording my actions to make sure the levain is maturing properly. Here is what I did to grow the levain, please let me know if you think I went wrong anywhere:I use Bobs Red Mill Organic Whole Wheat and Bobs Red Mill Organic White in the starters and recipes. I also use Brita-filtered water. I mix everything in this 6qt tub and have the associated cover when I need to seal the mix in there.Day 18:48 AM502 grams Whole Wheat Flour509 grams Water @ 88.6 degrees FLeft uncovered 90 minutes after mixingCoveredAmbient measurements (in my apartment)33% Humidity72 degrees FDay 2 (by the end of day 2, levain has expanded to ~2qt line of the 6qt tub and there are bubbles throughout)8:34 AMRemoved 3/4 of the mix504 grams Whole Wheat Flour508 grams Water @ 90.7 degrees FLeft uncovered 60 minutesCoveredAmbient measurements26% Humidity72 degrees FDay 3 (prior to mixing, it was a full 2x volume from when I mixed on Day 2)7:26 AMRemoved 3/4 of the mix499 grams Whole Wheat Flour504 grams Water @ 93.6 degrees FLeft uncovered 60 minutesCoveredAmbient measurements25% Humidity72 degrees FDay 4 (prior to mixing, the levain had risen up to ~2 quart line of the 6 quart tub with bubbles showing)7:55 AMRemoved all but 200 grams of the mix500 grams Whole Wheat Flour506 grams Water @ 91.8 degrees FCovered immediatelyAmbient measurements16% Humidity70 degrees FDay 58:10 AMRemoved all but 150 grams of the mix400 grams White Flour102 grams Whole Wheat Flour422 grams Water @ 82.8 degrees FCovered immediatelyAmbient measurements16% Humidity70 degrees FDay 6 (The book says the dough should have grown to 3-4x from day 5 but it has maybe just doubled in volume)7:13 AMRemoved all but 200 grams of the mix400 grams White Flour100 grams Whole Wheat Flour405 grams Water @ 84.7Covered immediatelyAmbient measurements22% Humidity70 degrees FOn the morning of Day 7, the dough has again just grown 2x (not 3-4x as it says in the book). The dough is then used in a pure-levain recipe which does not rise as it should.I'm not sure what or where I'm doing/going wrong. It feels like the issue is on Day 4 as Day 1 - 3 results match what the book suggests.Any help would be much appreciated.Thanks so much! /nai: Seems like you're doing fine You've noticed the very normal life cycle of a starter (or levain using Forkish's preferred terminology). An initial burst of activity and after day 4 a quieter period. Some even 'go to sleep' but it seems yours didn't quite go that far and just quietened down. Yours seems healthy and is on the right track. Recipes for creating starters rarely describe this and just assume it'll go from strength to strength but as living things they rarely follow recipes exactly. If I were you I'd carry on but use a smaller jar/tub and a 1/4 of the amounts he recommends. No need to waste huge amounts of flour when less will work just as well.
/nhuman: Aliquot Jar to determine bulk fermentation rise Can I share a recent trick that I have been using to fine tune my sourdough baking? I am now using an aliquot jar to gauge bulk fermentation. A small piece of dough, about 30 g, removed from the dough after the first set of stretch and folds and placed into a small jar with straight sides. Make sure you pressure the dough firmly into the bottom of the jar trying to eliminate any air pockets. I got this idea originally from an IG post of Kristen’s (Full Proof Baking). This dough will ferment at the same rate as the larger dough mass assuming you keep it in the same conditions as the larger dough. You will mark the starting point and can very accurately measure the volume rise of the large dough by the dough in the aliquot jar.I’ve always had a very hard time measuring rise because I bulk ferment in a Pyrex 8” x 8” square dish and make one loaf at a time. So when the dough starts out it isn’t even touching the sides of the dish. I’ve started using the aliquot jar in the past 3-4 bakes and now I can really measure the rise so if the end result of the crumb is a bit too tight I can next time let bulk go further with confidence by using the aliquot jar and get a more fully fermented loaf. Or vice versa of course if over fermented I can dial back on the fermentation next time.I hope someone finds this as helpful as I have. Using this I can learn to judge the visual and tactile features of my dough in a way that I haven’t been able to before.Benny /nai: I am also using this methode for my last bakes. I use a thin marker to set a start line.So far I was missing a real straigth small glass but I just found a local store where the have them for 0,95 euro cent. It is also intressting to see what happens if you leave the small sample for ours more.
/nhuman: Autolyse with or without levain included, with or without kneading I've been tweaking around with my process and have been trying autolyse for the past several bakes, mixing the main bulk flour and water together and letting them sit for an hour or so before adding my levain and salt.Here's the thing. It just doesn't feel right to me when mixing it. The autolysed mixture develops a very firm elastic texture and the levain is typically rather fluffy. They simply don't feel like they mix well together. I could I guess try two different things here (or maybe more - suggestions welcome!):I could knead it to incorporate it better - but I've heard such yelps of protest when I mentioned kneading my sourdough (...in a FB group mostly) that I've dropped it from my process (although it was actualy part of the recipe my starter-donor gave me)the objections to kneading seem to be centred around the way it would destroy the rise - and people were advising stretch and fold instead of kneadingstretch and fold is all very well - but the idea that kneading kills your air incorporation doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because if you do it at the beginning of bulk fermentation I think you've got rid of the existing bubbles anyway and kneading shouldn't hurt itI actually LIKE kneading and was kind of disappointed to learn that this was Not How Things Are Done in the sourdough worldI could mix the levain and the bulk flour and water together to autolyse for a bit, then mix/fold/knead/addsalt after that Any advice? It could be of course that the fact it doesn't feel right to me doesn't mean it isn't right. But... it doesn't feel right.tx /nai: It's your bread, so you get to call the shots If that means you want to knead it, go ahead and knead it. What you've described is a very typical approach. Whether you call it mixing or kneading, the autolyzed flour/water mixture has to be combined with the levain and the salt. If the autolyzed dough is stiff and the levain is rather liquid, then it will take some serious kneading to combine everything. And no, it won't destroy the rise, whatever the naysayers might mean by that.If the liquid levain constitutes a significant percentage of the water in the final dough, your last point might be the best approach. The flour still gets a good soak before the salt is added and you can skip the struggle of combining a stiff blob with a liquid levain. What you've described has been nicknamed "fermentolyze".Stretch and fold is a good technique for working with loose, extensible doughs but isn't nearly as effective with stiff, elastic doughs. One last thought: there's a kneading technique called frissage or fraisage. It works fairly well for combining dough components that have different consistencies. In your case, you could cut the stiff autolyze into small chunks and dump them on the countertop. Then pour the liquid levain over the pile of autolyze chunks. Use the heel of one hand to press down and away from you, smearing some of the chunks and liquid together. Hold a scraper in the other hand and use it to gather the smeared portion back to the pile. Repeat the smearing and scraping until everything is uniformly combined. It will be a fair amount of work because a stiff autolyze will resist incorporation until it has absorbed enough moisture from the levain. By smearing them on the countertop, you increase the surface area of the chunks and bring them into contact with the wetter levain. As mentioned before, it's your bread so do whatever works best for you and gives you the results you want.Paul
/nhuman: For the life of me I can't get sourdough bagels to float. I've tried two different recipes (two times I tried one and one time the other) and I couldn't get 'em to float. I got good bagels, but no floating. I boil straight from the fridge. I've overproofed them and proofed them correctly (I read that underproofed bagels wont float). I'm not sure what the problem is. Any recipe suggestions or tips? Thanks! /nai: One thing you could do, which One thing you could do, which is recommended in bread bakers apprentice is to do a float test in some cool water before boiling. You take one bagel and see if it floats within 10 seconds. If it does, your good to go. If not, pat it dry with a towel and let if proof a bit longer checking every so often, I think he recommends every 10-20 minutes. Then check again and if it floats they’re ready. It may also depend on your starter. Is it good and ripe before using? Which recipe have you been using? That might help others trouble shoot with you. I’ve been working on bagels recently too and I think learning with Peter Reinharts recipe has been helpful. I’m sure you can find the sourdough modification if you do a quick google search or try with commercial yeast.
/nhuman: 5 months and still a disaster Please help me!I started tackling sourdough 5 months ago after many years of baking chemical yeast bread. I bake on average 2 loaves per week. Generally I stick with three recipes on theperfectloaf.com (awesome website): the 50/50, Tartine #33, or all-purpose loaf. I obsessively read or watch videos about how to improve my bread and every time I think that I've finally figured out "my problem" I'm disappointed by the resulting loaf because the problem is still there (or a new one appears).For a while I was making pretty descent loaves. They rose OK with an OK crumb and sometimes I even got ears. At the time I complained they weren't good enough. Now my loaves have devolved and they're like they were in the beginning: flat and dense with large holes. I'm at my wit's end about what direction to go because I thought I'd learned something about building strength, understanding how my starter works, etc. but it seems I've not learned anything at all.In general I figured out that my starter is very fast. I can build a levain over night only if I put the levain outside in my garage (it's probably 10 degrees out there). Even in the fridge I have to feed my starter every 3 days. At room temp my starter is ripe within 4 hours. Generally I've stopped doing a cold ferment of my dough overnight as I thought it was over proofing so I've been doing a 7-hour cold ferment during they day and baking at night.My loaf yesterday turned out flat, dense, with large holes. It was the 50/50 loaf from theperfectloaf. I had realised I had not been building enough strength into the dough so did slap/fold on the dough for 4 minutes initially. Then another set of slap/fold an hour later, and then stretch and folds every half hour for about 4 hours. When I shaped it for the cold ferment I thought it felt good and strong. After 7 hours in the fridge I took it out to bake. The dough had gotten a bit stuck to the towel despite flouring (this often happens to me..I don't understand why). As basically always happens, when I dumped the dough onto my baking pan it was flat and nothing like the pictures/videos I see of a dough that holds its structure. I don't understand why when I shape the loaf it feels good but after the ferment it's useless. Where am I going wrong? /nai: Hi Emily,I think most of us, Hi Emily,I think most of us, from time to time, have experience some of the frustration you described. I have a suggestion that you may want to try. Some time back we had a Community Bake that featured Kristen’s (FullProofBaking) Basic Open Crumb Sourdough. I suggest this particular bread because bakers achieved astounding results and the instructions are so well laid out with a YouTube video. If you choose to try that bread, be sure to post your bake(s) along with images so we can help. Many bakers monitor that post and will be happy to help.http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61572/community-bake-featuring-kristen-fullproofbaking
/nhuman: New to artisan bread making / sourdough Hy all,firstly I need to say hello to all of you and that I'm completely new to this but also forcefully dragged by intuition that if I want to bake bread I need to do it this way...I bought a book from Vanessa Kimbell and mostly I can say I like it, but it got me to some confusions.After I watched several clips on youtube (mostly from Baker Bettie) the pieces fell into the place and now I think I will be ready for my first sourdough bread next weekend (as my starter is now in process of growing / establishing (at day 3).I started with stone milled rye because the book and other sources say it is easiest to start with.Still, I got to some dilemma when planning ahead my first attempts.Book (Vanessa's School) advises to start the sourdough journey with baking classic 73% hydration white boule.It also recommends opting for "ambient method" for begginers.Still, "ambient method" suggests using "white levain" and here comes my most recent dilemma and question:Can I use rye starter (the very first starter that I made from rye flour and water and fed with rye flour and water at 14 degC) to make white levain with simple white flour?Basically, I would still feed and keep the rest of my starter rye, but when making levain can I use different flours? is that an option and will it lead to success?Thank you all good ppl :* /nai: Welcome! Absolutely, you can Welcome! Absolutely, you can use any starter with any flour for baking any bread :)
/nhuman: Attempted a marbled loaf I'm pretty happy with this marbled chocolate sourdough! I think next time, I need to pop some of the bigger gas bubbles while shaping before the cold retard, though, cause the holes are juuust a little bigger than I like. Does anyone have any tips on how to get more distinct marbling? I layered them in a lamination step before doing subsequent coil folds. Can you do coil folds and lamination near the end of the bulk ferment to minimize mixing, or is the gluten too strong for a lamination after some coil folds? any insight would be appreciated, thank you! /nai: I tend to bulk each dough colour separately and combine when shaping. Beautiful loaf!
/nhuman: Sourdough Yeast Is there a dry yeast like Red Star that will produce sourdough bread? I realize there are many different types of SD microbes, based on locale. But in brewing beer at home there are hundreds of different types yeasts available, each imparting a different flavor. If this is possible, why hasn't some company developed different types of bread yeasts? /nai: Not sure if this is what you Not sure if this is what you're looking for but I saw this on the Internet.https://redstaryeast.com/red-star-platinum-instant-sourdough-yeast/
/nhuman: Using Both Water Kefir and Milk kefir for Sourdough Starter Hi Fresh Loaf members i was wondering if one can use water kefir and milk kefir added together to make a gluten free starter veganI use plant based milk - like coconut milk to make my milk kefir. When i use this to make my sourdough with GF flour like sorghum or millet flour, there are not too many bubbles. Is it possible to add some water kefir to help make the SD more bubbly?Any suggestions would be appreciated - thank you /nai: I don't think I can help you, I don't think I can help you, but what is water kefir? Do you add kefir grains to water? Nothing will ferment then...
/nhuman: Loaves rising in the center, but no the ends I've been making sourdough loaves for a few months and I've had a recurring problem and I haven't been able to figure out a solution to it. First of all, I've taken a really long time to get to where I am. I'm kind of a self-learner and stubborn and so I'm not a real recipe guy. I do a mix of flours that's roughly 30% white, 20% rye and 50% whole wheat. My starter is awesome. Very active and reliable. I'm not sure what my hydration is, but I'd guestimate it's generally in the 65%-75% range. I don't really measure. I just go by feel. And like I said, because of my stubborn method, it's taken a while to get to the point where I can make reliable loaves and boules...My boules actually come out excellent. I'm perfectly pleased with them, but I don't make them very often because I'm a sandwich guy and I like loaf shaped slices for sandwiches...So my loaves get a really great oven spring in the center, but the ends generally don't spring nearly as much, so I generally have shorter, denser slices at the ends, and tall, lighter slices in the middle. One of the issues I have had, is that I sometimes don't score deep enough on the ends, and they're kind of constrained as it springs, and so as the center rises, it pulls the ends a bit towards the center. I've fixed this by using a knife to score deeply on the ends and this seems to have mostly addressed that issue.One possible source of the problem is how I get it in the pan. I lay it out on the counter in a rectangle, with the width equal to the length of the pan, roll it into a log, and throw it in the pan seam side down. I score, then cover with tin-foil (sprayed with cooking spray) to retain moisture and bake at 450 for 15-20 mins. Then I remove the tin foil (if the oven spring hasn't yet popped it off) and drop the temperature to 430 and cook for another 40 mins or so.The attached photo is a typical result.Any tips on getting a more even loaf?So that's pretty much /nai: A few things I missed about A few things I missed about the process: I mix my flour with salt and water and let it autolyse for an hour or so (I know some say don't salt in autolyse, but it doesn't appear to matter in terms of final result). I add a tablespoon or so of malt after the autolyse when I add my starter. I do a stretch and fold style of kneading for about 10 mins. Then I usually do 3-4 sets of stretch and folds 20-30 mins apart before loading into a loaf pan for final proofing.
/nhuman: Crumb diagnosis Hello lovely people,I need some help understanding how to improve my bread. This is one of my first SD breads and would love to know how to make it better.I used 50-50 WW and AP (both are regular Indian flours and I understand them to be quite weak). 20% levain (70% hydration. The levain rises quite well - doubles in about 4 hours and almost triples in 8-10 hours)2% Salt 74% hydration (not counting the levain)I autolysed for 60 mins with very cild water. Then added salt and levain and hand mixed (stretch and fold) for about 15 minutes. I rested it it for 30 mins.BulkI did 4 coil folds spaced 30 mins apart. The dough seemed to be holding up quite well. I left it untouched for another 1.5 hours, shaped, proofed for 45 mins, baked at 250 C (20 min closed and 20 min open). Results in the attached pictures.Questions:1) I am very unsure about the bulk time. I was going to bulk for 6 hours but the dough doubled in about 3 so I cut it short. The temp here is 31 C and its in this range all year round. I didn't want to risk over fermenting so I just proofed for 45 mins. and baked. Does the crumb indicate whether the dough was over proofed or under proofed? Any expert tips on whether I should try to push or reduce the bulk?2) The crumb was quite moist and cakey. I loved the flavour - it had the perfect amount of subtle sourness. However, the crumb was a little dense and cakey which was great when toasted, but weird otherwise. Also, the crust became quite soft immediately after cooling. Does the picture give any indication of what might be the problem? Any expert recommendations on where to go from here ?All advice is much appreciated. IMG-20201027-WA0005.jpg /nai: I'd reduce starter amount - I'd reduce starter amount - the entire process seems rather short - and that would limit gluten development. So reduce the starter, give more time to get good gluten. But, you'll have to be careful - weak flour can only develope so much gluten, and it won't be the strongest so, the fine line between not enough and too much gets finer. You'll have to experiment a bit. Enjoy!
/nhuman: Underproofed / Overproofed? Currently following this recipe for sourdough which has given me pretty good loaves: https://foodbodsourdough.com/the-process/ Only change I’ve made is adding 50g more starter and 25g more water - I find the higher hydration & boost from the extra starter has helped a lot.I’ve made 3 loaves with this alteration and they’ve all turned out pretty well, although not perfectly. They have a golden brown crust, but no ear (just an expanded area where I scored), a light but slightly sticky texture, and I suspect they could be taller. Wondering if I need to change the BF time? The recipe calls for an overnight BF and overnight fridge proof. I’ve been experimenting with different BF times and I’m not sure if I need to increase or decrease BF time. First pic is about 8 hours with each loaf increasing in time. Thank you all for your insight! 0EC11377-AC2A-45DF-AF83-53AAD1C5DDB7.jpeg 98276203-B67F-4F6D-916A-AB9853FF6EDB.jpeg 0C472E17-6718-4728-8ACC-02196F523FE6.jpeg /nai: Rougher handling is about it. Rougher handling is about it. Enjoy!
/nhuman: Strengthening a starter for a bake, vs regular feeding I was wondering if there is a difference in the type of yeast and bacteria that develops within a starter when the feed is a higher percentage ratio 1:5:5 or more, as opposed to a lower ratio 1:1:1 or 1:2:2? Does a type of feed create more bacteria development as opposed to yeast development, and is there an advantage to one or the other when you are preparing for a bake as opposed to a regular feeding? /nai: Do a search for Debra wink Do a search for Debra wink and check last few posts for more info. Enjoy!
/nhuman: Overfeeding Starter? Too hydrated? Hi! I'm new to these forms and to sourdough! I'm excited to learn more about the art of sourdough. So I started a sourdough starter about two weeks ago following a youtube tutorial. I began with organic rye flour, pineapple juice, and filtered water gradually bringing it up to four ounces w 100% hydration. I had great yeast activity and carbon dioxide bubbles. Last week I did my first feeding using bleached flour as instructed using a 1:1:1 ratio. I've been feeding my starter every 24 hours trying to get it to double. I have tried waiting 48 hours with the same result. It sits in an environment consistent of 67-69 degrees F. Basically my starter rises only a little bit, maybe about 1/8, the same amount every time. I'm pretty sure my yeast is active as carbon dioxide bubbles form throughout the starter. There is significant bubbling on the top. The smell is kind of acrylic-y but not vinegar-y. I have noticed that the texture is quite liquidy and is not super spongy. Should I try a different feeding recipe that uses less water? Should I feed less often in general? I know that I have to be patient but I've been consistently feeding it for a little over a week with no progress or significant growth. You guys' expertise would be appreciated!! Thanks! /nai: Thicken it up to a wet dough Thicken it up to a wet dough like consistency - stir 2-3 times a day - don't feed (important). When it stops rising (however long that is) start with a 122 (adjust water to keep the dough like consistency) daily feed. Enjoy!
/nhuman: Sourdough bread never rises as much as when using commercial yeast Hello everyone,I've been baking for around a year and I am mostly happy with my yeasted breads, but when I use sourdough exclusively they are always a bit smaller than their yeasted counterpart. Is this expected or is it something I can overcome?For example, I made a couple loafs, samish recipe, but one had 1gr of yeast added together with the starter. The recipe looks something like this:The night before: mix a 1:5:5 levain (50% AP, 50% wholegrain) - the next morning it's ready (doubled) with a very slight vinagery smell.Autolyse 450gr flour (50 whole + 400 bread flour) with 325gr of warm water for 30'Add in 100gr levain, roughly mix it (we should be at 75% hydration)Add 11gr of salt (and 1gr of yeast, if using it) and mix well5 or 6 strech and folds (one every 30')When I feel that the dough is getting a bit bubly (I'd say 40-50% increase, but I'm not measuring it) I preshape for 20-30 minutesShapeAfter 1:30 (if yeasted) or 3:00 (if sourdough only) I bake it in a dutch oven (30' with lid, 20' without @240C)At shaping time, the sourdough bread looks like this (I'm wondering if I waited long enough before the shaping):And after 3 hours it looks like this:I am happy with the crumb:But it's a bit small in size.For comparison, the same recipe with yeast looks like this:Much better! (even though the crumb is less pretty) Any suggestions?TLDR: is it normal that yeasted breads end up bigger? /nai: Yeasted breads can be bigger, Yeasted breads can be bigger, I wouldn't say always though. Sourdough is a different beast - literally, and as such has a different technique (and while similar there are some very different processes involved). I'll say the production of acids (how much acid and when it's created) is a big difference and has a huge effect on a dough. These acids, when to much, will break down and/or inhibit gluten formation, and there's the trick - we want sour (most look for sour in sourdough) so we need those acids - controlling their production is key.I'll also add - one of the biggest things about yeast is it's predictability - that's what it was designed for. Sourdough has more variables - more things to get used to. Enjoy!
/nhuman: new to sourdough Hello all! I am new to sourdough baking, but am starting as an enthusiastic hobby baker. I enjoy reading many of the threads in this forum for advice and tips. I began my starter in September, and finally got it mature to start baking mid October. I have gotten to the point where I think I am pretty happy with my basic loaf (I wanted to get down the basics before I start experimenting with different flavors and/or flours). I've more or less followed Full Proof Baking's 80% hydration recipe, but subbed out 40g of the WW with rye instead. I'm happy with this bake, but would love for a more experienced baker to tell me where I can improve! Thank you! /nai: Wow! That is most excellent!And as a bonus, your "bunny" not only has an ear, there is an "eye" in just the right spot.And after only two weeks, that's even more impressive. You've obvious baked bread before.Welcome to TFL !
/nhuman: What can I learn from this bake? I would like some feedback from the experienced bakers here: These loaves were 80% KA-BF 20% KA-WhiteWW. 76% hydration. A bulk fermentation w/3 stretch & folds + shaping + bench time of about 6 hours. Temp was 72-75 in oven w.light on. Overnight retard in the refrigerator. Took it out and baked right away.I was using the Sourdough School book by Vanessa Kimbell as a rough guide on process. The loaf on the left was baked as she suggested at 360F covered w/a dutch oven for 1 hour and then uncovered for 10 minutes. The loaf on the right was baked like Bake w/Jack suggests (I have good luck with his method) covered for 15 minutes at 460F & about 25 minutes uncovered at 400F. The latter loaf has a better oven spring.The crumb is from the loaf on the left (I gifted the other loaf).What feedback can you give me based on these pictures?- I know I can go much darker on the crust and have in the past- Am I slashing too deep?- Why is the crumb looser in the center than the perimeter? Am I making the outer layer too taught when shaping?- What is causing those large holes? Air bubbles introduced during shaping?- What is causing the hole right below the crust?Never having baked with an experience bread baker, I'm still guessing when my bread is properly proofed. The dough was slightly jiggly and had a nice sheen to it before I preshaped (rested 20 minutes) and shaped.The bread tastes good with a slight sourness to it (I made the leaven the night before).I know there is a lot that I'm asking for here. Thanks in advance. /nai: I think they are both I think they are both beautiful and artistic with the "wing". And now I will sit back and listen to the more experienced bakers as I have only made sourdough bread 3 times (trying the 4th in a day or two!). And note, my first attempts were horrific and dismal failures but I am already getting better. Congratulations on your effort and attention to detail. I am learning to take notes as I go too. B/f this I was a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants bread maker...so go figure. I am re-creating myself.
/nhuman: Deck Oven Problems, Steam? Hi Everyone, new to this site but been baking for a while and was planning on opening a small neighbourhood bake shop early this year. Plans got delayed a bit but getting to play around with the new oven I though would be a fun experience. I currently use my home oven and get decent loaves without issues.Got a large 3 pan deck oven for the shop, but unfortunately doesn't have steam injection, only a stone floor. I figured I would be able to just steam with a garden sprayer. So far I have tried basically everything I can think of to add steam, and just can't seem to get enough to get the spring that I get in the home oven.Todays attempt was baked at 440f, top and bottom, I have experiment going as long as 320f, but still not getting the spring I want. Used the sprayer to add steam at loading, 1mins and 5mins, have tried variations on this and no massive changes.The best of the three was the bottom/left one, but the ends were very flat. Seems to be just lucky that I burst in the middle. The crumb on all three didn’t really have big problems, the top was denser due to not opening, the bread made for decent eating. Is my only option at the moment to make tin foil hat for each loaf, or is there another problem that I am missing by assuming it’s just the steam. I can’t really think of anything else that covering the loaves. Thanks! IMG_3801.JPG IMG_3803.jpg /nai: Steam I believe you can buy a steam generator aftermarket and most deck ovens have a port for injecting it. A big deck oven is going to need a lot of steam, obviously. So spraying a mist into it by hand will likely be ineffective. You could also make or buy something like this: https://pleasanthillgrain.com/rofco-oven-steam-tray. You will probably need a lot of these though and they are pricey. I can give you some ideas on how to make it yourself if you want. Let me know.
/nhuman: pinkish and grey spots: safe to use? Hello :)I'm new to sourdoughs so I'm very unsure of my starter. Picture below.This is the first stage of my sourdough starter: 50g of whole rice flour plus 50g water, 24hours at 30°C (86°F). It smells good, not sour, is very fluffy and the pink is very faint. Can I still continue with this? Next step would be to add 50g of flour and 50g of water and let it sit again for 12 hours. Thanks for you help! /nai: The rule I follow is - grey The rule I follow is - grey or black, it'll come back. Red, better left for dead. That's for a flour starter, rice may be different, but if the rule stands, try another. Better safe than - well, something else! Enjoy!
/nhuman: Trying to figure the hydration of a Soaker I am hoping to determine the "neutral" hydration of a soaker. Meaning the amount of water that it takes to completely absorb the dry ingredients in a Soaker, but not so much water as to change the hydration of the Final Dough. So when the Soaker is added to the Final Dough Ingredients it neither adds moisture to the dough nor does it absorb additional moisture from that dough.If I can somehow figure that out, I will be able to tell the correct hydration of any given dough with a Soaker.For example, Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain shows 98% water in the Total Formula. In this case, it seems only experience can tell me how wet the dough will be.--Dan /nai: The grains will absorb at different rates and amounts.Take 20g of any one grain and cover with 100g of water. Soak. Strain and weigh the water and the soaker separately.Repeat with all the grains and seeds individually. Take good notes and this is a lot of fun and experience! Play with the figures later. You can also Soak for half an hour, strain, weigh and recombine to soak longer giving you a better idea of how long different grains take to soak up a maximum amount of water. Knowing how much each grain will increase may help you. My general observation is that those seeds that soak and swell quickly, usually give up the water quickly during the bake. Those that are slower to absorb water are greedy. If the natural soaking time is longer than the recipe soaking time, these grains may absorb moisture during the bake.
/nhuman: Larraburu Starter Inconsistency This post is for my fellow S.F.SD aficionados who have been trying to reverse engineer the Larraburu sourdough formula which has been published several times in different places over the years. There appears to be an inconsistency in the formula described in the article by A. M. Galal et al. cited by doc.dough in another thread. The article, entitled Lactic and volatile (C2-C5) organic acids of San Francisco sourdough French bread, originally appeared in Cereal Chemistry 55(4): 461-468If my math is correct, the Galal article calls for a 1/1/2 starter/water/flour refreshment of the starter sponge.Now take a look at this document from the U.S. Patent Office:https://patents.google.com/patent/US3826850A/en?oq=US3826850A1. Maintaining a continuous starter sponge comprised of two parts (40%) previous sponge, two parts (40%) flour and one part (20%) water by rebuilding every eight hours or three times a day;This works out to a 2/1/2 refreshment and is consistent with the "other" S.F.SD process cited by doc.dough, viz.Sour Dough Starter Sponge100 parts previous sponge100 parts flour (Hi-gluten)46-52 parts waterThis doesn't conclusively solve the mystery, but it points out the consistency between the formula in the patent document and the "other" formula cited above.The definitive authority on Larraburu sourdough is the head baker and co-owner, a fellow named Richard Chamblerlin, who unfortunately is no longer with us. /nai: Le travail sur trois levains "Le travail sur trois levains" or "The work of the three levains" was the old style method for making Pan au Levain until around 1920 in France. A little historical perspective helps in understanding San Francisco French Sourdough Bread (SFFSDB). French Bread in San Francisco was traditionally prepared by predominantly ex pat French bakers who followed the use of the "mother" dough to start the leavening action of what would become tomorrows bake.A slight modification to this "méthode" produces what's covered in the U.S. Patent.SFFSDB from was not sour prior to the Great San Francisco Earthquake of 1906. Evidently the French Bakers had enough of San Francisco earthquakes and departed for parts unknown. Taking their place were bakers of the Basque heritage which liked their bread to be sour - it went better with their style of food. It remains to this day as the quintessential "San Francisco French Sourdough Bread" and no one seems to complain of this slight to the Basque heritage. Larraburu is a Basque surname by the way.One last nit is the origin of the type of flour over time. Sonora was the flour of choice at the time of the Gold Rush. The progression from Sonora to Red Winter hasn't shown up in any literature that I'm aware of, yet...,In any respect, I've developed a similar technique which produces either a sweet tasting French Style or a Sour tasting San Francisco "Wharf Style" bread.I begin by taking the sourdough starter from refrigeration and leave it to warm to room temperature for several hours. A 1: 1 ratio water : flour is mixed in doubling the weight and allowed to ferment till doubled in volume (>77dF).This is then added to a build trough with an additional 1 : 1 water : flour mixed in, again near doubling the weight - enough additional flour is added to yield the final bakers percentage. In my case that's ~64%. This is placed in a covered bowl and allowed to ferment. This is where sourness of the final taste of the eventual loaf is determined. Sweet fermentation is a simple doubling of the starter, a sour fermentation allows the active starter to go well beyond peak fermentation action into an over-ferment conditon. If you taste the starter it will have a "sweet sour" taste. This is when the final dough is prepared to your baker's percentage and allowed to go through autolysis for natural gluten formation (30 minutes) after which the levain build is allowed to mix into the dough for 4-8 minutes at which time a 2% finely ground sea salt (fleur de sel) is added and allowed to mix for 4-5 minutes. The dough will tighten into a velvety smooth (baby's but) appearance indicating it is ready for bulk fermentation.Bulk fermentation at 95dF takes 1hour and 55 minutes before weigh and forming and placed in final fermentation baskets for approximately 1 hour at 95dF.The loaves are then placed under evaporative cover in refrigeration at 38dF overnight (~12 hours) to improve the taste of the finished product. Baking begins the next day before dawn.Hope this helps in achieving the ultimate in Sourdough Baking, The San Francisco French Sourdough bread.Wild-Yeast P.S. Forgot to mention that the first starter out of the fridge is 15% Organic Dark Rye, 85% Organic Red Winter Wheat Flour. A measure (~1 ml) of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is added to the water to neutralize chloramine used in our area. Best again,Wild-Yeast
/nhuman: Dough doesn't fill banneton after fridge ferment Helloo, So I'm pretty new to this whole thing and I recently bought an oval and round banneton at 9.8in and 8.6in respectively. The ingredients in the recipe I use weigh 1773g altogether at 76% hydration. Even though it divides into a little under 900 grams per loaf they're way too small in either banneton even after a 12ish hour stint in the fridge and I usually let them sit on the counter for about an hour while the oven preheats.I don't if I'm calculating the weight of the ingredients wrong, my bannetons are weirdly shaped, or my fridge is too cold but they barely fill the baskets I generally don't like posting on forums but I tried looking around for an answer and couldn't find one /nai: Just let is proof longer with Just let is proof longer with some warmth till it fills. It'll get there. Enjoy!
/nhuman: Five starters compared (not very scientifically) I went crazy back in fall and bought 4 starters from Sourdough International on a buy 3 get 1 free deal. I chose the Finnish, Russian, San Francisco and Tasmanian. The 5th starter in this comparison is the one from King Arthur (KA below).I activated them according to the instructions and they all work wonderfully. Activation took 6 to 8 days for me rather than the 3 to 5 they suggest but otherwise worked very well. I have maintained them using Doc.Dough's system and I've been baking small loaves using Mariana's suggestions. Baking and eating them one at a time I couldn't really tell much difference so I decided to do a side-by-side comparison. Over a couple of weeks I baked and immediately froze 5 loaves. I made my daily bread which is 70% WW 30% BF with 10% sunflower seeds, 20% oat soaker and a little honey and olive oil.The loaves were virtually identical in appearance. I used the same process on each only varying by a few minutes when I got distracted.While my daughter was visiting from Oregon we did a taste comparison. I thawed the loaves and cut one slice from each into 16 small 1x1 inch squares about 1/2 inch thick and placed them in 2 piles of 8 each. So we had 10 piles (2 for each starter * 5 starters) of bread squares in 2 rows. My wife, daughter and I tried to match the pairs; that is identify squares that tasted/smelled the same. My daughter (38 years old) got 2 correct matches (Russian and KA). My wife and I (both > 65) completely struck out.I have noted two differences.The Finnish starter is a strong riser and keeps going for several days in the refrigerator. It will blow the top off my small container if I don't burp it.The Russian and KA starters produce slightly sourer loaves.Of course this experiment has many limitations. The differences might have been clearer with a simple white bread but I mostly don't eat white bread.Longer fermentation might have allowed more differences to develop.Freezing might have changed the smell/flavor.It is common for the sense of smell to fade with age especially over 60.[EDIT] Cross contamination is a very real possibility.I had fun doing the comparison and learned that, for me, there is no good reason to maintain all 5 of them. I'll give away 3 or 4 to someone nearby. Gary /nai: Great Experiment! Well done Gary - a very interesting and useful experiment. It's almost a shame that you didn't find any decisive flavour differences; perhaps we fret too much about our starters?Lance
/nhuman: freezing sourdough dough We are going to be traveling in our caravan for an extended period, 2-3 months, and I don't have room in the freezer too take more than one loaf. Has anyone frozen their dough? If so after the first or second proof? Thanks in advance /nai: I freeze the bread I freeze already-baked loaves of bread (already sliced) all the time.If you have a refrigerator and the ability to bake bread, you might want to try Jacques Pepin Easy Bread.https://www.keyingredient.com/recipes/793365032/one-pot-bread-jacque-pepin/The original youtube is also out there if you want to see him make it. The bread is part of a dinner he is making.Prebag the flour/salt in ziplocs, invest in a cheap 2 qt nonstick pan and enjoy fresh bread. It is more of a batter bread (dough texture) but turns out pretty well. I'm sure if you want to add other things (oil,butter or sugar) you can.Have delicious fun!
/nhuman: Converting Whole Wheat Starter to Bread Flour Hi all,Finally my whole wheat starter is alive and it all thanks Debra Wink, I found out about the articles she wrote and it helped me a LOT. (I'll share the link below so that if you guys stumble upon this message and have the same problem making a new starter, you can check it out)http://www.thefreshloaf.com/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2Actually what I wanted to make in the first place was white starter (fed with bread flour), and since I have too many failed attempts (like 8 failed attempts) and I read about the blog Debra wrote, I finally have success in making one starter with whole wheat.Then I tried to split my whole wheat starter and fed it with combination of whole wheat + bread flour, eventually it failed to rise. At first I tried to feed it with combination of 50% whole wheat + 50% bread flour. It was active and still rose to double. As I gradually increased the bread flour % until it's all bread flour, it started to slow down and it ended up failing to rise eventually and had just very few tiny bubbles. And I decided to split another new one (taken from my whole wheat one that I still keep and feed regularly). This time I decided to feed all bread flour at once without any gradual attempt. At first feeding with bread flour, it still rose to double but still slower compared to my whole wheat starter. And then 12 hours later, I discarded and fed it, and it did not rise at all after second feeding with bread flour, just few tiny bubbles.I ended up with the same result (gradual transition with whole bread + bread flour and full bread flour, they have the same result). And the smell when it's on gradual transition is fine, a bit alcohol, fruity like banana, and mild sour smell. But when it finally stopped rising and just had few tiny bubbles, all those smell I describe was not there, just a bit maybe, just a hint of those smell if I sniffed it with all my senses, LOL.Should I keep it going, feeding and discarding it? I don't wanna make a new starter from scratch since I already wasted too much flour, lol, (I have made 8 failed attempts in a row to make a starter) I suppose there's nothing wrong with the bread flour I use because I know some famous people on Instragram feed their starter with this bread flour. And the water is also fine since my whole wheat starter is alive and well. The temperature now is fine (recently it was too hot, and now season is changing and it's much cooler and quite nice), my starter is always 100% hydration, fed regularly at 12 hours feeding cycle.Or do you think maybe my WW starter is too young to convert to white starter since it's just about 14 days since the yeast activated (not counting the smelly days and quiet days, 14 days is age since the yeast appeared) note:My active whole wheat starter (from which I attempted to take some part and split into white starter) feed ratio is 1.2.2 and it doubles and peaks in about 10-12 hours.Thank you. /nai: Start by doing a feed of 122 Start by doing a feed of 122 (adjust water for a wet dough like consistency), then just stir about every 12 hrs till it comes back (don't add anything, just stir. But, if at any point it loses structure and gets soupy, feed immediately. It'll get back to normal pretty quick and you'll discover what a proper feed schedule is as with different food it will most likely change. Enjoy!
/nhuman: Is it normal, underproof or overproof? Hello guys,I've been baking sourdough for two months now but i'm not happy with the rise, almost rather flat. My starter is active (2x rise), i feed it 3 times a day with 1:2:2 ratio except for the night 1:5:5. This was my last bake, round/boule with ingredients* Bread flour 350gr* Whole wheat flour 50gr* Water 292gr (75% hydration)* Salt 6gr* Levain 75grMy schedule:* 05:30, feed levain, 1:5:512:55, autolyse13:20: mix levain13:55: mix salt14:20: S&F1 -> S&F6 (6x) with 20mins and 30mins separation for last three S&Fs (last S&F 16:45).18:00 pre shape and bench rest18:15 retard in fridge*08:45 (next day) bake.Total bulk ferment time: 4hrs if counted from mixing the salt or 4.5hrs from mixing the levain. I read somewhere that bulk ferment starts after mixing the salt and others said that it starts after mixing the levain. Ambient temperature during bulk fermentation was 24-25C and final dough temperature was 27C.I baked using convection oven with baking sheet covered with stainless bowl for 20mins with fan off, 250C and then 20mins without the bowl 230C, fan on.This was the pics from last bakingPreshapeBefore retardingAfter retardingIs that normal or underproof or overproof? What can i do to get better rise? Thanks /nai: The crumb is beautiful, I'd The crumb is beautiful, I'd be happy with this bread.For the oven spring, have you tried lower hydration? Might be easier. And while I'd say this is fermented nicely, proofing less will probably give better spring.Does it look like the loaf is flattening immediately after turning out of the basket? Or after you score it? Or in the oven, before it grows?
/nhuman: Can you recommend a recipe/any advice that leads to an open crumb? I've made a lot of sourdough but I almost never seem to get an open crumb. Even if I go higher hydration or do fancy folding techniques. I have tried both a high gluten flour as well as wheat, bread flour, and an expensive all purpose flour. I dont even think I'd prefer an open crumb, i just want to see how its done and if I can do it. Thank you! /nai: According to Travis, it's 80% According to Travis, it's 80% fermentation and dough handling. He has a book that's very comprehensive if you're interested. I'm sure you can learn here as well, as his book is very detailed although he does provide a few summary tables at the end if you just want the overall message. From what I have seen, more aggressive mixing early on with more very gentle folding later on (if even needed) with plenty of bulk proofing helps me get there. Also use plenty of steam. I use Graniteware now with very good results (even toss in an ice cube or two). Here's my result from this morning - not sure if you want more open than this - if so, I probably could have folded the dough a bit more and I think final shaping can also affect the result as I always see more holes in the center of my loaves. I generally don't want more open than this because then things fall through :) Maybe post some pics and describe your process for better feedback?
/nhuman: Where did I go wrong with my sourdough? I know the question is one that could have a ton of answers. This was my absolute first time making sourdough. I’m really not even much of a good bread baker so am probably out of my element. I followed Reinhart’s directions for making the bread by creating a starter, then barm, firm starter, etc. I used rye flour as directed for the starter but then regular bread flour for feedings and then rest of the steps. I have included a picture; the taste was pretty good but the bread was heavy and doesn’t have any nice airy holes in it. I also had difficulty scoring it. My guesses are I under kneaded it or under proofed during the first rise but I guess it could have also been an issue with my starter. I’d like to try again but want an idea of where I erred and would love help. /nai: Looks good to me OK, there are none of those giant holes that some people like, but getting those takes quite a bit of work, practice and confidence. To me, your bread looks great, and if the taste was pretty good, I would call that a win. It might be slightly underproofed, but certainly not much. For a first effort, I'd say that was terrific.
/nhuman: Crumb diagnosis hints? Hi folks - do you have any advice about this latest effort, re compression (or... lack of expansion) of the crumb on the top? Pictures below, and further details of baking recipe/process below that. Thanks!The finished loaf (above) looked pretty good.The crumb (above) seemed a bit compressed at the top.In close up (above), it was a bit gummy.This was a rye-fed starter fed with strong white bread flour to make a levain overnight, remainder of the flour 80% strong white bread flour 20% whole wheat, autolysed for an hour or so, 63% total hydration, several hours stretch and fold at room temperature, cold proofing overnight, baked in pre-heated dutch oven at 250C for 35 minutes. I've got a few theories about what might have been going on:not scored deeply enough, so the crust was impeding rising in the oven?not cooked quite enough - would have been better to leave it in the oven for another 5-10 minutes?[your favourite theory here....]Any ideas about what's what?tx! p.s. it's very tasty - quite light and soft in texture - but not as elastic as some other efforts /nai: thumbs Mg: unfortunately, you linked to the thumb-nail images and not the full image.You don't need to re-upload the photos. The full size images are there.If you can edit your post, delete those images from the post (not from your files tab), and then insert the images that do not have "thumb" in the name. It should be simple.--Next time, don't check the "thumb" box when you upload. That is an advanced feature, which seems to confuse basic users.
/nhuman: Weak dough Hi,Beginner sourdough maker here. I've tried 3 times now making sourdough and the dough tends to be weak after proofing. Twice with the Modernist's sour dough recipe (V3 p63), the dough flowed from the cold proofing (14 hrs) and I couldn't cut it with the lame because it was so sticky and fluid. However, when it baked it had a beautiful crumb will large pockets, the bread was flavorful and the crust was good. I can't seem to get a tight skin after the proofing.(Recipe: 480g flour, 315g H20, 195g mature liquid levin (ie. 1 Starter, 3 flour, 3 H20), 10g wheat bran (I used wheat flour), 1 g Diastatic malt powder, 12g salt.) Autolyse, 4 hours, 6 folds, 14 hrs cold (fridge) ferment. Let warm up 1 hr and then bake.Trying to debug the problem I am going down the track to see if the starter is good. After 9.5 hrs, it has doubled in size and passed the drop test (in water). The pH when I fed the starter was 5.41 and 9.5hrs later was 4.26. As an aside, the Modernist V3 p48 says a young levain will have a pH of 4.2-4.3 and can be used for leavening purposes. At most ripe it will be 3.8 to 3.9 and sour. So, I am assuming that the issue is not a faulty starter. The starter was made 50% King Arthur bread flour and 50% whole wheat.Any ideas on my next steps to try and address the issue?thanks. /nai: I find the biggest issue with I find the biggest issue with following a "recipe" is the timing. Play around with that and you'll be good. Enjoy!
/nhuman: Is this starter safe to use? https://imgur.com/N3SNYS1 I left this starter in the fridge for around 2 weeks without feeding it. When i removed it it had formed a hard skin on top. I discarded that and saved about 1 tablespoon and fed that. Its been 2 days and it seems to be showing signs of life. I a just scared that it developed some type of bacteria in it that is unsafe to eat because it looked like it was growing maybe mold or something on top? Does anyone have any ideas about this?Any help, ideas, or input would be greatly appreciated. /nai: Probably ok As long as you scraped off a thick layer of the top and took your tablespoon from normal looking/smelling starter, your fine. It is ok if it smelled like acetone-that just means the starter is starving. However, if the neglected starter smelled like old socks, cheesy or sewer-like, that would be a different story. It is a smell that would have hit you in the face as soon as you opened the jar. Start over in a clean jar and carry on.BTW, did the neglected jar have a lid on? Usually a covered jar doesn't form a dried skin.
/nhuman: Whole Grain Wheat Starter Help I have made artisan bread in the past using my own sourdough starters, but for some reason this year I am struggling to get mine going. I am using organic whole grain wheat berries and grinding them within days of use like I have in the past. I am two weeks into the creation of this one and it just doesn't seem like it is building the strength like I am used to seeing. If I remember correctly, the starter usually doubles in size within 6 to 8 hours and is ready for use in artisan bread. Because I knew I was going to reach out and ask for help, I made a time lapse of what I have been seeing linked below. https://media.giphy.com/media/zc90i1WtoSlAssVeq2/giphy.gifI fed it at about 0630 in the morning with the intent of taking a picture every hour for 12 hours to see its progress. Once the evening came and it was time for bed, it was still growing. I took a picture in the middle of the night and then kept taking pictures for most of the following day out of curiosity.It appears that it took somewhere around 24 hours to double in size which seems really slow to me. Previously I had been adding 25g of starter to 100g whole wheat and 100g filtered water @ 80F in a kitchen that is usually about 70F. For the experiment to see if maybe I just wasn't doing the correct ratio I did a 1:2:2 (50g 100g 100g), 1:3:3 (33g, 100g 100g) and 1:4:4 (25g 100g 100g) all with 80F water. The closet that I did it in stayed about 68F through the whole time. I hope this gives enough information about how I have been trying to feed the starter. Please let me know if I have a misunderstanding of when it should be ready for use. I always thought the bench marks were doubled in size and would pass the float test. Any recommendations of how to strengthen it are welcomed. /nai: If comparing this starter If comparing this starter with this flour, and the others used a different flour, I wouldn't expect to see the same results. Besides - the starter looks just fine to me - I don't see any problems at all. I'd use it remembering regardless of flour used it's still on the young side and some adjustments may be needed - recipe and/or process. Enjoy!
/nhuman: why is my dough so stiff? I watch videos of people making dough and it just seems that my dough is much stiffer, even with 84% water. And when I add salt and starter it's so stiff I can barely work it. The result is there's very little strength by the time I put it in the oven. If I put the resulting dough in the fridge overnight it seems to rise better. Anyway, here's what I do in more detail and if someone could point out anything obvious I'd appreciate it.First of all, I live at 5000' above sea level and it's very dry.I mix 60% KA bread flour (12.7% gluten) with 40% KA whole wheat (14% gluten) and 84% water. At 80% the dough is just too stiff to do anything with without tearing it.I let it autolyze for 3 hours. If I stopped after an hour I'd never get a windowpane.At this point I can pull up a piece and I get a good windowpane, but it's so much slower than what I see other people do in these videos. The result is that as I mix in the salt and starter (2% and 20%, respectively) it gets even stiffer and I don't really mix it all in. They might say do folds for 5 minutes but I get 2 or 3 folds and then it has to rest for a while or else the dough will tear. The result is that, unless I refrigerate the dough over night, the dough just spreads out when I put it in the oven.What does work is I stretch out the dough after autolyze, I smear on the starter and salt. I roll it up, let it sit 15 min, do 2 folds, sit 15 min, 2 more folds, let it rise 4 hours, a couple of folds, rest an hour, form it, put it in the basket, final rise, put it in the fridge and bake it the next day. Parts of the dough rise fine but some parts are fairly dense.The saving grace is it all still tastes good. I'd just like a bit more flexibility and a more even crumb.Thanks! /nai: I can understand the dough I can understand the dough spreading out in the oven at 84% hydration. I live at 7,800' above sea level and my wettest dough is under 75% and all my breads are baked on a stone. Yours seems more like a ciabatta.Sorry if I'm not understanding this, but I feel like we're missing some information here. Your dough is wet but too stiff to work and parts rise and parts don't. Maybe you could start with your complete recipe and process.Dave
/nhuman: Air travel with starter? For those who have travelled by air with their starter, particularly if you’ve gone from Canada to USA and vice versa, how did you pack your starter? Was it noticed during the examination of your luggage, was it questioned?Benny /nai: Are crackers allowed? Are foodstuffs like crackers allowed?
/nhuman: Liquid Starter Patent Here is another sourdough formula from the U.S. Patent Office. It uses a liquid starter. LIQUID STARTER Flour100.0%Water250.0%Previous liquid starter38.0%Salt2.0%Develop 6.5 hours @ 75° - 80° FDOUGH Flour100.0%Liquid starter38.3%Water40.3%Salt1.9%Proof 7 hours @ 86° FRead the full patent here:https://patents.google.com/patent/US3734743A/en?oq=US3734743 /nai: Interesting Especially the use of salt to slow down lactobacilli growth relative to yeast.This mixture is such high hydration, would it stir with a magnetic stirrer?Lance
/nhuman: HELP! Will my dough keep overnight? I thought I'd timed everything to perfection but...My shaped dough went into bannetons about 4pm and then into a 3°c fridge at 5pm intended for baking first thing tomorrow morning, BUT I couldn't resist a cheeky peak just now (10pm) and they're domed nicely and springing back slowly leaving a slight indent right now.Will they keep until 9am tomorrow in the fridge, or am I doing some late night baking tonight? /nai: maybe, maybe not. One of the dictums is "watch the dough, not the clock." The dough out-ranks the clock.
/nhuman: What's the sharpest blade out there? There's this saying in my language, "if you can't dance, the floor must be crooked".So I can't score my breads, I always end up sawing them with the blade because it just won't go through in one smooth pass. And even in a non-smooth pass it's quite a struggle. So you know, it has to be the blade right, not me, right? :)In all seriousness, which blade are you using? Looking for the sharpest one out there :) /nai: what is this "slash" of which you speak? The bread? Why would you slash bread? Don't you mean slice?Or did you mean slash (as in "score") the dough?Sincerely,-Mr. Literal.
/nhuman: Newest bake Just sharing my newest bake. It's been over a month since I baked my last sourdough and I feel like I'm getting pretty consistent now. Weather has cooled so proof time has changed.This is 50% whole grains (150g whole wheat bread flour, 100g rye, 250g white bread flour) 80% hydration. Really nice caramelization in the crust.It was doing some lovely singing as it cooled! Never noticed that before.What do you think? /nai: Looks good enough to eat ?
/nhuman: My lovely oven spring and ears have disappeared In search of a more open crumb, I may have gotten a little cocky and tried a higher hydration dough (85%) with less than perfect results. My beautiful ears have completely disappeared and my oven spring was not great. The crumb is definitely more open than before but look at those weird giant holes.What did I do? Did I overproof? Was I foolish to think I could try a high hydration loaf having only had marginal success with a 72% hydration dough?? All I want is a more open crumb why is this so hard lol. /nai: Weird, giant holes Most probably caused by shaping. Which, with an 85% hydration dough, is very hard. You can get nicely open crumb with anything from 68%-72%. At 85% you’re really making ciabatta. Dough handling and shaping IMO is more important than hydration in achieving a nice open crumb structure.
/nhuman: Sourdough crumb question Hello! I’m wondering if I can get some feedback on my sourdough crumb. I’ve only baked 4 loaves in the last 2 months, but they’ve had wildly different crumbs. Similar number of foods for each (5-6x over 3.5 hrs), an hour autolyse, then levain added, then salt added. Both loaves rested for 4+ hrs and was cool to the touch. I used the coil fold method for the most recent loaf and ended up with HUGE holes in the bread. It almost seemed like too many holes and not enough actual...bread? Other than the folding method being different, the only other major difference was that I let it sit for an extra hour after adding salt because I had a work commitment. The other loaf was clearly more dense internally (less airy) and I utilized the stretch and fold method. The doughs felt similar, although I think the more dense loaf seemed to feel “tighter” when I shaped it for the banneton. Has anyone noticed a major difference based on shaping method, and/or what’s causing the massive holes in my bread? /nai: Larger photos? Hi mgo!Those photos are too small. It looks like you linked to the "thumbnail" photo and not the actual real photo. I see "thumb" in the filename:https://www.thefreshloaf.com//files/u158505/thumb_C8629A51-653B-4D48-A661-68132C487DE4.jpeg
/nhuman: Easy in-bowl-shaping method, quick and less messy. I have been working on a simple recipe and easy method to help friends bake sourdough with good results, no matter what tools you have. I finally finished a video on this the other day, It's a pretty unique technique, I haven't seen anyone else shape their bread this way. An easy, no-knead sourdough recipe with no special tools needed. Without a dutch oven and with a dutch oven, as well as using a regular loaf pan. This video covers the basics of baking sourdough bread, along with a way to make it easy.I've had great feedback so far from new bakers. I thought I'd share it here too, and hopefully, this can help people struggling or just wanting to simplify their baking process and still have a nice result. I would love to hear your feedback on this method and don't hesitate to ask any questions!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUf1WgyPOx4I also want to underline that we're not posting this here to get more views or subscribers, I genuinely want to help people here improve on their baking. I hope this helps! SourdoughShapedInBowl.jpg /nai: I think you made a great I think you made a great video voor beginners as well as for more experienced bakers. One thing I have started to use is a good kitchen thermometer. Here in the Netherlands you can get one for free from the food healt organization. For Dutch bakers here is the url. https://www.voedingscentrum.nl/nl/nieuws/haal-een-gratis-thermometer-en-zet-je-koelkast-op-4-graden.aspx
/nhuman: How can I get my sourdough to rise up instead of out? I have tried working on my shaping which has helped, I've even tried to lower hydration and that didn't seem to do much. I cant figure it out. Here's a picture of my most recent crumb. By all means, it seems alright. But I see people posting crumbs that almost have no slope, the appear to be almost perfectly round and only rise upward. What am I doing wrong? I cook in a dutch oven. I use okay flour, not great. Its high gluten, 14.2%. I mostly do the king arthur no knead recipe with 3-4 stretch and folds. It's a pretty standard recipe. Thank you! /nai: A few thoughts First, I think your bread looks just fine. That said, if you want more loft, you might think hard about your bulk ferment timing. After two years of futzing around, it seems that I get my best oven spring if I retard (refrigerate) my dough after only a 25-30% volume increase. It keeps rising for quite a while in the fridge depending on the total dough mass ( I usually mix 2-6 loafs worth at a time).After 12 hours or up to 5 days of refrigeration, I pre-shape, rest for 10-15 minutes, then final shape, proof for another 45 minutes or so, and bake. I don’t have much experience with baking immediately after bulk with no retard, but would encourage you to experiment with reducing bulk fermentation to south of the 50% increase benchmark.Good luck,Phil
/nhuman: Size of baking vessel in relation to loaf Hi All,I've baked boules with a lodge 5qt combo cooker up until now, and now I want to get into baking batards.I have a Baking Steel Griddle (18" x 14") and have incoming a Granite Ware 18-Inch Covered Oval Roaster (15" x 11" x 4") that I intend to use upside-down as a lid. My brotform/banneton for batards is 10" x 7", and fits about a 1kg loaf, which is my average sized bake. So far so good.My question is this: is the large 15" x 11" x 4" volume of the baking vessel in any way detrimental to baking such a small loaf at around 10" x 7" x ~3" (1kg, 80% hydration)? Does the volume of the baking vessel need to be smaller to effectively keep the steam close to the loaf during the initial cover-on bake?- Dirk. /nai: That's my setup I use an enameled roaster that has the same dimensions, overturned on my baking stone. Works great for my batards (same size as yours) as well as my boules. My usual loaves are about 1,100g.Rich
/nhuman: Baguette baking videos I’ve recently started filming some of my techniques/procedures I use that I learned during the Baguette Community Bake.. The thread for the community bake is a treasure trove of information but it can be intimidating to read through. Alan (Alfanso) put together a PDF summary of the information in the Community Bake which I think summarizes the what we as a group learned about baguette baking.I hope that making these videos might help other bakers who haven’t yet baked baguettes but are interested in doing so. Please like if you find anything useful or helpful to you. Thanks, Benny /nai: I've enjoyed all of your videos. Thanks, Benny. I've enjoyed all of your videos. They are very well produced, explanations are clear and informative, and your enjoyment of baking bread is obvious. Richard
/nhuman: Overfermenting Hi there,I've been waking up to overfermented dough lately. I normally shape and retard in fridge for 12-24 hrs then bake straight from fridge. Should I skip this step if it's overfermented?ThanksLL /nai: Whatever it takes to fit the Whatever it takes to fit the schedule. Enjoy!
/nhuman: Seeds hydration and a stiff dough Hi all,So I've been experimenting with seeded loaves. What I do is I soak my seeds and then subtract the extra water they take on from my dough.But what I end up with is a very stiff dough as obviously the water in the seeds doesn't necessarily leach out into the dough. I add them in at the start of my bulk when I laminate and adding them does indeed make the dough a little more wet but not that much. I just accidentally tore my dough during a coil fold as I wasn't concentrating and used to more extensible dough....How do others deal with this? Do you just increase the hydration of the loaf from the start?Thanks /nai: Some research is here... This user did a lot of research on that in 2019:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61245/soaker-ingredient-hydration-percents-some-data
/nhuman: Shaping Sourdough Dilemma Hi folks!when i learned sourdough the initial technique i learned was after the initial short fermentation , one would then shape the bread then let it sit for the final long fermentation. Then the baker would carefully " tease" the loaf out , and bake it as is. (method 1)Ive also seen some other methods where after the final fermentation the baker would then roll it up and shape it . (call this one method 2) My question is , which method is better for sourdough in order to maintain its lovely air bubbles? ive always done it the first method assuming you want to maintain as many of the air bubbles created in the process but then ive seen some lovely breads from folks rolling it back up and reshaping just before baking.Today i did it the 2nd method as i tried a new longer ferment (24 hours) and the dough fell apart as i clumsily took it out of its proofing basket. SO i figured , why not experiment ! Thanks for your help /nai: "when I learned sourdough..." OK, more info please... Flour types? Amount of starter to dough? Starter hydration? These are all relevant to how the sourdough is handled. Each flour type and starter amount in the dough will influence the dough differently. Also if the sourdough is a wild yeast or a pure cultured one.
/nhuman: Any help. Tips. Thank you in advance Hello everyone. This is my second loaf and to be honest I am happy with it. Yet I do have a problem. When cut into it it seems rather “doughy” if that is the proper term. my leaven was 35 g of my starter 35 g of bread flour 35 g of whole wheat W/ 70 g of filter water it was left overnight and once that was set and bubbly.( passed the float test, and doubled in size) I started my journey. with 810 g bread flour 90 g of whole wheat 680 room temp water and 18g fine salt I performed 6 sets of stretch and folds spaced out by 15 min then again at 30 min.after I let it rest 1.5 hours. Formed it into a loaf and chill overnight. So now I’m not sure. My first few loaves came out the same way. So any advice or tips may helps. edit. I’m sorry if my picture is a bit off. Or blurry for some reason it didn’t want to work with me. And please don’t be to hard on me this is only my second time and other places have been so cruel with any advice. I’m rather proud of what I’ve done. /nai: The picture CD324203-CE71-4AA3-AE3A-8FF03589A890.jpeg
/nhuman: Finally, a none ugly loaf! I finally produced a couple of loaves I’m actually proud of and I could not have done it without the tips on this forum. Thank you bread friends!I still think I could push the fermentation further, but it’s hard to know how far is too far. /nai: Those are beautiful Sarah, Those are beautiful Sarah, both inside and out.Benny
/nhuman: Double Lamination and Adding Inclusions I’ve just uploaded a video demonstrating how I do a double lamination and add inclusions for my purple sweet potato sourdough with black sesame seeds. Please have a look and like, I’d appreciate it.Benny /nai: Fascinating That looks like a lot of skill. Do you have a picture of the finished loaf?
/nhuman: Help with gummy texture Hi all! Hoping to get some insight as how to to solve the weird texture in my sourdough - it’s this tacky, gummy crumb that seems to happen in all my sourdough no matter if I change up recipe or fermentation time. I’ve tried changing up the recipes - bread flour: ranging from bread flours 12-13% protein- whole-wheat whole grain - 10-25% - hydration- ranging from 60-75%- salt 2%- starter - 4 months old fed twice daily - fed the night before 1:2:2 (50% rye + 50%bread flour) and for the actual levain used in the bread I feed it 1:2:2 (100% bread flour or mix in 10% ww flour) I’ve made like 6 loafs with varying taste from the hours left to bulk ferment but the gummy texture prevails general methodfeed starter (1:2:2) - used around it peak, not quite tripled but definitely more than doubled in volume 4-5 hours afterautolyse 1.5 hours Mix starter in by hand, 5 mins mixing30 mins later, Salt in, 3-5 mins of mixing30 mins interval - bench fold, stretch and fold, 4 coil foils total bulk fermentation - tried a range from 4-6 hours at 28 degrees Celsius room temperature (tried a range of growth btw 40% to 100%)at the end of bulk there are visible air pockets, dough is manageable not too sticky and can be shaped Into a banneton and into the fridge for about 12 hours. It goes straight from the fridge, scored, into an oven 250 degrees with steam covered with Pyrex bowl for 20 mins and 210 degrees uncovered. There’s no oven spring too :(troubleshooting the issueive tried changing the flour, and have made commercially yeasted bread with the same flour and didn’t have issues thereFor hydration, even if I do reduce it to 60%, the gumminess is still presentSo I’m suspecting something is wrong with my starter? i had fed it 100% dark rye previously as it would make a strong starter? But rye supposedly can cause some gumminess so I switched to only bread flour or sometimes with a little bit of whole wheat mixed in for the levain. Any suggestions on what else I could try would be so helpful! /nai: Narrow things down and choose a recipe Then learn it. Gummy means too much water in the finished product. Water can be removed from the finished product by longer and/or hotter baking, or by lower hydration in the dough. In my opinion many people on this site over emphasize high hydration. It causes more problems than it provides in benefits. Your loaf looks a bit undercooked also. You are changing too many variables. Try 65% hydration at 260 Celsius for approx 45-50 minutes for a 500g flour weight dough. Post your results here. You can then make one small change at a time to achieve your goals.
/nhuman: Starter growth - Upscaling limits? I maintain about 3/4 cup by volume of starter in my fridge. Some recipes I've been looking at are asking for 1 cup of starter. So, my question, by way of example, is that I presume I could take about 1/2 cup of the starter add 1 cup flour (~113g) and 1/2 cup water (~113g), let ferment overnight and then use 1 cup of the newly fermented starter in my baking.At some point in time it seems to me that, depending on the recipe, one could add so much flour/water that it would take longer than overnight for the population to grow to give a strong/viable enough starter. For example, and this is just to articulate the problem, not a real world example, but if one added 5 cups of flour and appropriate water to 1/2 cup starter, it seems that it would take a considerably long time for a viable starter, and it might even not work.So, is there a rule of thumb regarding how to upscale starter? For example, I could see a rule that says, for every gram of starter, the maximum you would want to feed it is 4x. So, for 40g of starter you might not want to go over 120g flour (and appropriate water).I apologize in advance for the wordiness, but I couldn't figure out how to articulate this concisely!Thanks /nai: Tango, yes , it is hard to Tango, yes , it is hard to word the question, though of course, I don't have a real answer other than it depends. Normally, we refer to feeding schedules by a ratio where the first number is starter, the second is water ( I think ) and the third is flour.One common ration is 1:1:1 - so that would be 113 grams of starter to 113 gram of water and 113 grams of flour ( While i greatly prefer grams to volume measurements in general, when measuring starter i find the whole concept of volume baffling since the volume changes over time as the starter increases in size then deflates, and of course, since it has trapped air, the idea that you could get an accurate measure by putting it into a 1/2 cup measuring spoon seems hard to understand , sorry for the rant)The ratio of the last two numbers tell us the hydration of the starter ( or if you are changing hydration, where you are heading too) so a 100 :125:100 would be a 125% or liquid starter.The ratio of the first number to the flour tells us how much food, so again, if it were 100:100:100 than the food to starter ration is 1 to 1 and we would expect it would mature quickly.It is also very common to see ratios of up to 5 - so 100:500:500 - which would mean that starter would take longer to mature. I don't think there is an actual maximum limit, though in practice, the timing may not work out all that well if you went 1:100:100 - since you might run into trouble with dough degrading.Note that many suggest that the starter activity will vary based on feeding amounts and schedules and so if you start feeding it higher amounts of food consistently, it will increase its activity, so that if it took 4 hours to double in volume on a 1:1:1 and you then changed to 1:2:2, after several refreshes, it would not take 8 hours to double - though it may take slightly more than 4. BTW, many us keep a very small amount of starter in the fridge - for me, usually around 15 grams. A day or two before I want to bake, I take it out, 1:2:2 8grams starter , 16 water 16 flour, then stir, then take out 15 grams, put in a separate jar for an hour or two at room temp, then through in the fridge till next week, and when the remaining amount matures, refresh to build up enough for my baking on the weekend.
/nhuman: Help with a recipe Hey guys! So I was given a small amount of levain, along with a sourdough recipe for it, and the levain recipe (pictures attached).I'm assuming it means the starter for this recipe, as the recipe doesn't have any starter (as you can see) I'm trying to break down the levain recipe so I could keep making more out of the amount I have now. Do you think the "levain recipe" is the "feed ratio" for this starter I was given? If so, is there a way to figure out what the "old levain" recipe is (that is on the levain recipe)? here are the recipes I was given with the levain and I would like to follow:LEVAIN RECIPE:White Bread Flour: 18#Old Levain: 4.5#Water: 10.5#BREAD RECIPE:92.6% White Flour7.4% Wheat Flour62.02%14.82%2.78%Basically I'm trying to find out what the "old levain" recipe is (the one I was given an amount of) and if It's possible to treat it like a starter and keep using and feeding it. When trying to translate the levain recipe to percentage (to find out how much I should feed my small amount with), I got to:100% Flour58.3% Water25% Old Levaindoes that sound right?Thank you!! /nai: Your levain percentages are correct I'm curious about the bread formula numbers. Presumably 62.02% refers to water, 14.82% refers to levain, and 2.78% refers to salt. Was that information provided with the formula when you received it?Paul
/nhuman: Stiff vs. Liquid--What's really the difference? I ask this question because I had trouble converting my stiff starter to liquid recently. I have a very active stiff starter that I refresh at 50% (per Dan Leader's formula). It is very durable and always doubles within 8-12 hours. I followed the advice I found on here to use 24g of my stiff starter plus 143g water/100 g flour to readjust the hydration to 130%. It never rose even slightly, barely bubbled, and water appeared to separate and float on the top of the mixture. I tried refreshing it for a few days at 130%, but same results day after day. ANYWAY, I got to wondering if I wouldn't be better off just using my reliable stiff starter for all formulas calling for a liquid starter and just adjusting the hydration in the final dough. My question is.... Is there a difference in the character of the finished bread when you use liquid starter as opposed to stiff starter? In other words, aside from the inconvenience of having to re-calculate all formulas calling for a liquid starter, is there any legitimate difference in the resulting bread? Thanks, Mike /nai: Just a stiff... Since no one else seems to have tackled this, I thought that I would give it a shot. I've spent some time wranglng with "my teacher" over the stiff vs liquid issue and here's what has come of it. There is a line of thought that says that liquid levains will allow more lactic than acetic acid development and breads made with liquid levain will be "milder" than those made with lower hydration pre-ferments. Of course, there are a lot more factors that go into the whole "sour vs mild" discussion as some excellent threads with input from D. Wink have shown. Essentially it is a matter for you - the baker - to decide. I like to keep my starter at 100% hydration and I like to do a 100% hydration preferment. Why? I just like the process better that way. I have used my 100% hydration starter to do lower hydration preferments and I can't say that I have noticed much of a difference - except I don't like the process. I've got no one to keep happy but me - so, there you are. I noticed your post about problems converting your starter and really couldn't add anything. I've converted liquid starter to firm starter and back again with no problem, but our hands and our starters are all a bit different. So, if you like your firm starter and it is reliable for you, get a spreadsheet together and convert those formulas. If you like the results then it's all good. If not, evaluate and adjust. Hope this helps.
/nhuman: Descending into Sourdough Cavern Hi All,I started to make sourdough in August and am generally having a blast, but my most recent attempt left me baffled once I cut into it. It looked deceptively fine from the outside, but as you can see, there's a huge cavern that runs pretty much through the entire loaf, and everything around it is collapsed and gluey.This is pretty much the Tartine Country Bread recipe with the 3h bulk ferment they recommend and 4x stretch and folds during that, although I tried a 90 minute autolyse this time because my wholemeal flour is pretty coarse and bran-y, and after that I added in the salt and starter. It's also a slightly lower hydration - 70% as I'm in the UK and have found that flour here doesn't like as much water as US recipes use.I'm a bit stumped, as my other attempts have turned out pretty well. The only thing I can think of is that would have caused it is a change in the weather: it's been very cold and damp here lately, so it might not have fermented properly, or my levain might have been off. Any ideas?Thanks! /nai: Looks like underproofed indicated by the dense crumb at the bottom of the loaf. The cavern was probably introduced during your folds and shaping. The 3 hr bulk is probably quite short for the UK this time of year unless you regulate your ambient temp. ( I remember the cold damp fall days when I lived there)
/nhuman: PASTA MADRE IS AT 4.3 pH and I want 4.1 Chef, I’m trying to get my pasta Madre pH in the 4.1 range but I’m still stuck at 4.3I’m bounding it for the purification phase after vacuum sealing it and keeping it at 65F. I’m doing the cold water bath in the morning with 1liter of h20 to 3 grams of sugar for 20 minutes. After I mix/refresh the pasta Madre with a final ddt of 86F, I laminate by hand and the dough drops to 78F before proofing. Is my Madre to cold? I proof at 30 C with my brod and Taylor proofer but after 3 hrs it’s 88F inside. Can you please point me in the right direction? I’m using dalla Giovanna Pannetone Flour 00 (W390) /nai: same issue here. did you find same issue here. did you find out what the issue was.
/nhuman: Are there any tests to determine starter's ability to make sourdough rise? Hello friends,I have been struggling for the last couple of months trying to figure out what is going wrong with my sourdough loaves. I have tried Hamelman and KAF's Vermont Sourdough twice, Tartine's Country Loaf about 4 or 5 times and Forkish's Overnight Country 2 or 3 times. Each one is coming out flat, dense, and inedible. I am struggling with determining whether the problem is my starter or my technique somewhere else in the process.Here is the source of my internal debate: My starter seems to double predictably, every day, after about 8 hours. While I cannot find a direct answer to the question: "Is a starter that doubles sufficient to make a sourdough loaf rise to proper volume?" my gut says, based on related topics, that this means the starter is strong enough. Assuming that's correct, I then question my technique.What confuses me is that I have successfully made dozens of yeasted boules from FWSY and Hamelman (as well as a few other randoms). So that then makes me think that, at least my shaping, dough strength, and dough handling is good enough to get good oven spring--which leads me back to wondering if my starter is the problem.I clearly need to do a lot of trial and error to figure out what is going on. My current hypothesis is that I just don't know how to tell when a pure levain sourdough is over/under/properly proofed. But since that will require a lot experimentation, I wanted to try and figure out how to evaluate the starter first. The reason for that is that my starter was made with bleached bread flour--back when I didn't realize that could be a problem--so I worry that he was doomed from birth. I've just grown attached to him so I don't want to give up on him if it's not his fault.Do you have any ideas of how to test the effectiveness of my starter? Is there a simple sandwich bread that bakes in a loaf pan with all natural starter that I can make to see if it will rise without worrying about shaping technique and spreading?Thanks in advance for any help or guidance. /nai: What is the feeding ratio you What is the feeding ratio you use for the starter?
/nhuman: Stirred Starter? I'm just wondering if anyone has ever dabbled with a continuously stirred starter (well more likely a levain) and whether this would be "a good thing"?I was thinking about a little motor driven propeller mixer, maybe running at about 30rpm and whether this would give more vitality to levain builds. My usual 80% hydration would have to go up a bit to 100-125%.Just one of my musings....Lance /nai: Like at Nunzio...https:/ Like at Nunzio...https://youtu.be/tH_qc0NiumU?t=306Skip to 5:06 as above link
/nhuman: Anyone here feed their starter ABC+? (The Central Milling flour)Just wondering if there are any side effects to the growth from the malt. /nai: I have used ABC+ for starters I have used ABC+ for starters in the past with no problems. It seems to me that most flours work well with starters. Switching and substitutions have never been an issue for me. Whole grains - no problem.
/nhuman: Grey tinge to sourdough crumb Hi, So I’m seven loaves into my sourdough baking addiction! I’m slowly seeing good progress in things like my oven spring, scoring and the openness of my crumb is getting there. The one thing that’s puzzling me is that my crumb has a grey tinge. Initially I thought this was due to my starter being WW/rye but I’ve moved it to 100% organic strong white. My typical recipe is:100g SW starter500g SW flour 350ml water1/2 TBSP salt.2hr autolyse. 4hr bulk. Overnight in the fridge. The bread tastes lovely and has a nice texture. I’m just confused as to why it is not looking white inside??Any help appreciated. /nai: I worked out how to add a I worked out how to add a photo!
/nhuman: Boule bulging either side of the score line Hi, I'm new here - I joined because I read this forum so much and now I have an issue that I can't get to grips with and I hope someone can help! As you can see from the picture my boule is bulging too much either side of my scoring and pinching in the middle. I'm happy with the great amount of oven spring I'm getting but I wish I could get the ear while keeping the boule shape. Recipe/method used is as follows:400g SWBF, 50g white rye, 10g salt, 100g levain, 325g water (75% hydration)2 hour autolyse; 7.5 hour bulk ferment (at about 19°C/64.4°F - I'm in the UK it's cold!) with one stretch and fold, one lamination and 4 hourly coil folds; 1 hour pre shape; shape and overnight uncovered banneton proof in fridge for 13 hoursBaked straight from fridge 15 mins @ 230°C/446°F with steam (cast iron baking stone and tray with water), 25 mins at 180°C/374°F no steamMore pictures: https://imgur.com/gallery/VkkUFtrThank you! /nai: 2 dimensional scoring. Welcome to TFL ! Very good oven spring! Congratulations. The single end-to-end score line works fine for batards (oblong or oval loaves), but as you see, is not optimum for boules (round loaves).Most people do a cross/plus/X, or a # sign, or a circle on their boules. And after that, you can get fancy and creative.Here are some photos for ideas: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=boule+bread+score+scoring+good+oven+spring&t=fpas&iar=images&iax=images&ia=imagesI am not so good at making oven spring. Here is one of my better ones: http://www.thefreshloaf.com//files/u151432/AF61C384-AD02-4D6D-934E-B56CBA8F07E0.jpegBon appétit, amigo!
/nhuman: Dehydrated Pasta Madre? At my local Italian grocery store today I noticed a packed of "dehydrated pasta madre with leavening" and though I have no experience with sourdough or pasta madre, I bought it. I have been long tempted by pasta madre anyway. However, what I don't know is whether this mix can be used to make an actual pasta madre mother, or if I should just be using it once and using all the dough. Has anyone ever come across this product? Googling around about it I only found one video about it (in Italian, so no idea what it says), so I'm curious if anyone has used this and whether I should expect this to be one and done, or whether I can turn it into a mother. Many thanks in advance!Sarah /nai: Try It! Why not try it out? Treat it as you would some dried starter. Most of us have some dried starter in an air tight bag or jar to rebuild our starter in case of a bone headed error or loss of our starters. I keep mine in the freezer. Depending on the seasonal room temperature, it might take 3 or 4 feedings to build up an adequate quantity in my house. I keep the discarded starter in a plastic container in the fridge until the next weekend when I can use it in a pizza crust and not waste anything or my effort.I did a quick Google search and found some posts that say the pasta madre is indeed a sourdough type starter. Let us know if it works for you.
/nhuman: Is my sourdough dead ? hi, I created a sourdough starter for the first time on 1 October 2020.I have been feeding it 30g water and 30g flour. I started using farina00 flour as I did not have rye or bread flour at the time. I have been feeding it everyday and on day 3 I fed it twice. It smelt a bit like cheese during days 2-3 however after feeding twice a day the cheese smell has gone away. Everyday I see some bubbling however it has not risen. Today on the 5 the day I decided to change my flour when feeding as I thought it might be the reason my starter was not rising. I fed it 30g original starter 15g bread flour, 15g rye flour and 30g water. I have seen some bubbles form has it smells quite pleasant however still no rise.Am I doing something wrong should my starter have begun rising by now have I killed it?please help thank you /nai: It's fine This is a perfectly normal quiet stage. It's not only not dead this is the stage where the little critters are sorting themselves out to become a symbiotic culture. Stop feeding, keep warm and stir twice a day. It might take a day or two, or even three, before it begins to wake up again. When it begins to show more signs of life start the feeds again. It should gain in strength after that.
/nhuman: Preferred (stiff) Starter Hydration I understand that a stiffer starter can produce a more sour loaf of sourdough, which is what I'm currently after. With that said, I'm looking to develop and keep a stiff starter to achieve a good sour loaf. The bread recipe I intend on using is the KA Extra-Tangy Sourdough found here, https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/extra-tangy-sourdough-bread-recipeMy first question is, when you go about to develop a stiff starter, what hydration percentage do you feed your starter to which results in the most optimum stiff starter? I know a 100% maintained hydration starter is pretty common and easy for figuring the amounts of flour and water (equal parts by weight), I find that at this percentage it matures more quickly than I'd sometimes like and doesn't seem to have the degree of sour I'm looking for in the final result. My second question has to do with the recipe itself. This recipe calls for 1 cup (227g) ripe (fed) starter. Am I to assume that this is 227g of ones fed stiff starter at whatever hydration percentage it was kept at? Or do I assume that one has to bring the stiff starter up to a 100% hydration first before using? I've often wondered in the case of where a recipe doesn't call for a specific hydration starter, like this recipe, is it meant to be understood that all ingredient starters are to be 100% hydration? I know many of you folks keep differing hydration percentage starters, and I don't recall seeing this question answered. I haven't overlooked the fact that this recipe calls for an overnight ferment in the fridge which will play on the sourness, but for now i'm just addressing the stiff starter hydration question. Many thanks for the starter clarification. /nai: Weekend Bakery's San Francisco Sourdough Calls for a stiff starter at around 65% hydration and uses a lot of fridge time to build up flavour. I've done this recipe a few times with excellent results. In my latest bake I included add-ins but the plain loaf too is excellent. In my opinion a very ripe stiff starter does help but should be a larger percentage of the final dough than you'd normally find in a liquid starter recipe. The final dough hydration is similar to the starter.
/nhuman: Best flour for a long fermented Levain The most popular flour recommended for feeding starters is All Purpose. When considering a Levain for a dough that uses a relatively large percentage of pre-fermented flour and the final fermentation of that Levain is built overnight, wouldn’t a stronger flour (such as King Arthur Sir Lancelot) be a better choice? The thought is, the higher protein flour will produce stronger gluten that should not degrade as fast as weaker flour. In that case the stronger Levain wouldn’t introduce any or as much degraded dough to the final mix. Yea or Nay? /nai: Makes sense to me Dan. It Makes sense to me Dan. It would take longer for the proteolysis to negatively affect the gluten if there is more gluten to start with.

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