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/nhuman: post hurricane water dunno why it took me so long to realize it, but after the storm, we were not hit that hard, I couldn't get my starter to wake.  Normally I use tap and there is never an issue.But I changed to filtered fridge water and boiled it for extra safety.  Took a few hours, prolly coz the starter has a bit too much "leftover" in it, but it is breathing again.  The rye starter I just halved again and am refeeding as it was taking longer than the ww and ap.Lesson learned ... hopefully. /nai: Ah! Water treatment went up after the storm.  And this slowed down the starter.  U R Lucky the starter didn't outright die on you!

/nhuman: Feeding Rye Sour I have prepared a rye sour according to the instructions in Ginsberg's Inside the Jewish Bakery: Rye and Other Breads. He says that, once established it should be fed once or twice weekly, but does not specify the procedure. Is it just the same as the daily feeding that creates it over 10 days? That would be: AM:Sour 85g (discard excess)Flour: 70gWater (90F) 55g PM: Same as above except use 200g sour from AM feeding. /nai: I would use a much higher I would use a much higher ratio, i.e. more flour relative to starter. I maintain my rye starter by feeding it around 1:10:10 (e.g. around 5 g starter to 50 g flour and 50 g water) whenever I need to bake, using up most of it and placing whatever remained on the bottom in the fridge.

/nhuman: Ancient Egyptian sourdough https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/08/how-bake-ancient-egyptian-bread/615859/ /nai: Like. Good article.

/nhuman: Using a higher percentage of starter results in way better breads for me. Why is that? I can't figure it out. My breads have been turning out really shitty when I use ~20% starter vs when I use ~38% starter that the King Arthur no knead sourdough bread recommends (which is my go-to). I even put separate dough in a little jar and wait for it to double to see when fermentation is done. It's so aggravating. Please help. :( /nai: Clarify your percentages Are you calculating the starter percentage as the weight of the starter or the weight of the flour in the starter as a percentage of the total flour in the dough?The standard these days is to think of the starter in terms of the percentage of pre-fermented dough. So, for example, if your total dough has 1000 grams of flour, and you use 400 grams of starter that is 100% hydration, that would mean the starter contains 200 grams of flour. You would be adding the other 800 grams of flour in mixing the final dough. So, your dough would contain 20% pre-fermented flour. That would be a pretty typical starter content for a sourdough bread. (There are many exceptions, of course.)Hope this helps.David

/nhuman: Soupy dough! Hi everyone, this is not the first time an issue like this has been posted before, and I think I more or less can guess the problem, but I thought it would be good to lay it out and get opinions from more experienced bakers. Background: I have been baking sourdough for a while, since 2016. After a whole string of failures I suddenly managed to bake my first successful loaf, and it's been great ever since. I have had problems from time to time of course, but I reached a point where I'm pretty comfortable and confident in my baking. Today though... I had soupy dough. The dough formula - 80% bread flour, 10% AP flour, 10% rye flour; 75% hydration; 20% levain. Short autolyse for 20 mins, then I added salt and gave it a couple of stretch and folds before putting it in the bowl to bulk ferment. The dough was looking nice and good and strong at this point. Due to timing issues, I didn't do more s&f during the BF (which I have done before, with okay results). I was shooting for about 5 hours bulk fermentation at RT, which from past experience was fine. I ended up overshooting this slightly to 6.5 hours instead. This is where I got the soupy dough. After reading some threads, it seems the cause is overfermentation - so I can definitely point to the extended bulk fermentation (coupled with the levain percentage). However, some questions I wasn't sure of:1) Could it also be a starter issue, ie. is it possible that a not so healthy starter could cause the problem?2) On that note, could the flour also be an issue? Since the pandemic broke out, it has been harder for me to find the usual trusty King Arthur Flour (I live in Asia). For this bake, I used a "stoneground white baker's flour" from Australia that I was trying for the first time. I have also been using it to feed my starter and I noticed it hasn't been rising like before (it will still at least double, but not as high as before and the texture is a bit more soupy than tacky). Is it possible that certain flours would degrade faster than others, whether because of protein percentage or some other reason? I did not think it would be an issue when I bought it, since it was labelled as baker's flour. :( Apologies for the long post and thank you in advance to anyone who can share some insights! /nai: 1 - yes, but without more 1 - yes, but without more info can't say, so what's its feed and schedule and everything else.2 - could be but it would have to be pretty bad, and believe it or not that's pretty rare.

/nhuman: Calculating Percentages of Levain When calculating the percentage of levain in dough, is the entire weight of the mixture (including water) used in the denominator, or flour weight only? /nai: I have seen authors use both I have seen authors use both conventions in texts. Ultimately, so long as you know what convention is being used, it’s fine.For my own formulae (I have extensive spreadsheets...), I use the full weight of the levain for the % included in the build, but I include the flour content in the flour weight for the entire recipe.

/nhuman: Late stretch and fold - extend bulk fermentation time? I am making Hamelman's Pain au Levain, which requires 2 1/2 hours bulk fermentation with 2 folds at 50 minute intervals. My dough has had troubles coming together so I have decided to give it more folds after the 2 initial folds have been done. At the moment I am thinking it will need one more stretch and fold but this will then be at about 2 hours 15 minutes into the bulk fermentation. In this case is it better to still finish bulk fermentation at or around the 2 1/2 hour mark (thus giving the dough only around 15 minutes to bulk ferment after the final stretch and fold!) or is it better to give it a longer period after the final stretch and fold so it is closer to doubling in size? I worry if I go the latter route it will over proof. Any thoughts?Thanks,Shaun /nai: I'd do three 30 minutes apart I'd do three 30 minutes apart.  But I'm pretty new to this.

/nhuman: A near-debacle with a multigrain sourdough A while back I embarked on a multigrain, multi-day sourdough. One evening I got the biga going and stuck it in the fridge. The next day I put it in my Ank and... gosh, it's wet. I mean, *really* wet, like a batter, even after adding the rest of the recipe's flour. Why is it this wet?As it mixes, I start adding flour. And adding and adding. I'm not an expert baker but I'm experienced enough to know not to over-add flour, but it's just soaking it up and still goopy.I was baffled. It was supposed to be refrigerated for 24 hours, but it was just EXPLODING in the fridge, so I baked it that evening.As a consequence of adding all that flour, there was a LOT of dough; it just fit on my ~14" x 17 1/2" FibraMent and in my small oven. You can see the resulting massive loaf below, and how it doesn't quite fit on the cooling rack.And it was sometime while it was in the oven that I realized what had happened: at the same time I'd prepped the biga for this loaf, I'd made up a bowl of overnight sourdough waffle batter (my first time), and... I'd switched the two bowls. So instead of starting with a modestly hydrated biga, I started with something with nearly twice as much liquid (buttermilk!) as flour, plus a cup of 1:1 starter!For some reason the waffles came out fine (my usual waffles use a much thicker batter than is usual, so I never noticed how thick it was).For all that, it came out well--pretty tasty, actually. Not that I'd want to replicate the recipe. :) /nai: All's well that ends well Thanks for a morning chuckle.  If anyone asks why such a big loaf, just tell them you've always wanted to bake a miche. Paul

/nhuman: Chocolate sourdough Hii everyone!! I want to make a chocolate sourdough rustic bread and was wondering whether or not i can add instant coffee liquid during the autolyse process??or should i just add the coffee after the autolyse? /nai: Het is hoofdzakelijk water Het is hoofdzakelijk water dus ik zou het bij de autolyse doen.

/nhuman: Troubleshoot I made my first loaf of sourdough this morning. A true labour of love! I have attached pictures below of the final product as i would like to improve my load. Few things i noticed:1. Large air pockets, but wondering if my ones are ok? Also any other suggestions on where i can improve on. I used the full proof baking recipe. 2. The "ear" is not too obvious, should i be cutting the loaf deeper?3. The crust, I baked it in a dutch oven and i feel the crust is not that thick, though its pretty hard when cutting it4. Sides, I feel the sides are not as well browned as the top, any way i can make it browner? the loaf fit quite snug in the dutch oven, so not too sure why its not as darkThank you all in advance. /nai: Great First sourdough :)  You are sandbagging us!  No way you can convince me that this loaf needs improvement or that it is your first.  Amazing!

/nhuman: Another Starter Question... Hi all, my first post here.  I'm having trouble getting my starter to stay active.I'm using organic whole wheat flour and warm tap water.Day 1 - used 60g of flour, 60g of water.  Within about 6 hours it was -very- active, over doubling in size, was very happy.Day 2 - Using a random online guide, I didn't do anything day 2 and it seemed to settle.Day 3 - Discarded half and did a 1:1:1 feeding.  But this time it did not seem to activate.  Almost no size increase at all.Day 3+ - Day 6 - I've tried discarding at least half and feeding 1:1:1, twice a day, and it has just never gotten active again, doesn't rise at all.Nothing has changed since first day, same water used, same flour, same temp. Any help much appreciated!!  :( /nai: It's normal that in the first It's normal that in the first days it bubbles, then settles. First the initial yeasts do their thing, but since the whole bacteria colony is still unorganized and imbalanced, it takes some time for lactic acid bacteria to thrive, usually about 10-14 days until your starter is stable.Just keep going. Every 24 hours, discard everything but a tablespoon, then add 50 g flour and 50 g water. And stir, stir, stir, you want as many naturally occuring yeasts and lactic acid bacteria as you can get!Also make sure your water isn't chlorinated.

/nhuman: Anyone used a combi oven before? Do you still bake at the same high temps if the oven can naturally inject steam? Or in other words, do you change the temps in the recipe at all? /nai: Yes This link might be a good starting place.I have a few oven programs that I use, currently for baguettes BAG-STM2 preheats to 525°F and 100% humidity, then the set point drops to 390°F so that the heaters can be used to supply steam (240VAC split phase wiring instead of 208VAC-3phase so it can only feed either the boiler or the box heaters).  After 2 minutes the box is full of steam and the thermostat goes back up to 500°F, low fan speed, 100% humidity until 8 minutes total time.  It then drops the thermostat to 430°F, 20% humidity (still low fan speed) for 9 minutes to finish browning. Preheat takes almost exactly 9 minutes if the oven is starting from cold.For reheating food it is 280°F, 40% humidity, low fan speed, and typically 12 min for loaded plates. Somewhat longer for larger dishes coming from the refrigerator. But when the food comes out it is just like it was fresh. Bread is re-heatable once.Bagels start with an oven full of  steam (100% humidity) at 220°F for 2 minutes to cook the surface, then switches to 450°F (or maybe it is 480°F I don't have the programming sheets with me) with the steam gemerator off but the humidity set to 100% for a few more minutes followed by a drop to 10% until they are done.  It depends somewhat on how big you make your bagels.

/nhuman: Not sure if it's overproofed... In between 2 bakes experimenting with Anita's AP flour, I was able to squeeze in another SD bake using La Milanaise sifted #50 (equivalent T110, high extraction flour that has some bran sifted out, but still retains much of the germ and so will act more like a whole grain flour), flour that I had not used for a very long time! I had forgotten how tricky it was to bake with and ended up with those 2 very disappointing freesbees...I would tend to say they are over proofed, but would love to have confirmation from you as I'm not even sure...Given that I have 2 bags of 20 kg of that flour, I am going to have plenty of opportunities for trial and errors!!!Thanks in advance for any feedback! 100% La Milanaise Sifted flour #50 69% hydration10% levain inoculation2.2% saltLevain built overnight at RT - Ratio 1:5:3.5 - Starter is 2 years old-ish, seems to be active (I keep it on the dry side; it is kept in the fridge during the week and is fed with 100% Whole rye)Fermentolyse in the morning for 1 hDough kneaded 8mn with Ankarsrum mixer, Speed level 32 Coil folds done in the first 2 hours of bulkPre-shaping after 7h50 of BF at 27C  in a proofing box / rest 10mn at RT / Proofing 1h35 at 27C / Fridge overnightTotal fermentation time = 9h35 at 27C Baked in preheated DO at 220C for 40mn with 2 ice cubes + 15mn without lid + 5mn out of DO /nai: They do look pretty solid, They do look pretty solid, Gaelle. To me it looks like a low protein flour, perhaps coursely ground? You might be better blending it with some strong white roller milled bread flour. Lance

/nhuman: Sourdough Starter not Starting OK, I am beginning to think no man has ever truly created a starter from scratch and it is all a big hoax.  And all these pictures are Photoshopped fakes, using some secret filter called Fake Your Starter. I have a sleepy starter that I’ve been feeding for what feels like years.  At one point it started rising half its size,  now it doesn’t even do that. It gets very bubbly, but doesn’t rise much.  After 24 hours, it starts to smell slightly alcohol-y, right before feeding.  After feeding, it smells very nice.  Day after day after day. I started with 70g organic unbleached rye flour, 70g  distilled water.  I feed it 70g unbleached all purpose flour, 70g water, 70g starter. After it got to the point of rising half its size and then stopped, I fed it 30g rye, 70g all purpose, 100g water, 50g starter for a few days.  Once it started bubbling again, I went back to 70-70-70, using all All-Purpose.it is in the cool side in my home, between 69-72 degrees.  I tried keeping it in the oven with the light on, but it gets very hot—90 degrees and up.  I was afraid to keep it in there too long.  Although, that was when it started doubling in size—after I had it in there for a couple of hours.  When I checked the temp, I got nervous and took it out.  It continued halving in size for a few days, then decided it had enough and stopped.  But, as I said, it now bubbles very nicely and smells very good.I am thinking because it’s cool in here it will take a while?  I can’t imagine this thing ever taking off. /nai: Hi Patti. What an amusing Hi Patti. What an amusing description!  It seems the ambient temperature of your home is a likely source of your frustration, so I suggest you start by trying out one of the several tips contained in the following link. Good luck. Joehttp://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40570/tips-how-keep-your-sourdough-starter-warm

/nhuman: Morbread Flour I recently bought a 50lb bag of Morbread white flour. I made my normal Tartine sourdough recipe using 900 g of this flour, 100 g of KA WW and 700g of water. Prior to adding the levain, I mixed flour and water. Instead of the usual shaggy dough, I had a dough with consistency of thick pancake batter. My levain of 50/50 flour mix using Morbread was considerably more liquid than normal as well. Is this the normal experience with Morbread? /nai: Not normal for me I used Morbread for years, until I moved to where it is not available.  At 70% hydration it would not normally be that loose, especially with the whole wheat flour in the mix.  I do assume it was weighed out correctly, so perhaps your sack of flour is more moist than what you used previously?  I always found Morbread to be relatively high humidity, and had to adjust when I moved to a different flour.  The flours I use now still seem dry to me in comparison after several years using Morbread.How was it after the autolyse?How did the bread turn out? Edit:  I just checked, and the Morbread flour I was using was from Pendleton Mills.  Yours says Grain Craft...  In that case my comments probably do not apply.  You should look up the protein and ash content of the Grain Craft version and compare it to what you were using before.  That should give you some insight into why it is behaving as it does.  The Pendleton Mills version was a medium-high protein flour at ~12%.  That made it more thirsty than an AP-level (10.5-11.5%) flour.  I suspect your version is not that high.  Coupled with a difference in flour humidity, it could explain what you are seeing and tell you why you need to adjust.OldWoodenSpoon

/nhuman: Pain au Levain dough not forming strong enough gluten structure Hi there,I have been trying the Pain au Levain with whole wheat recipe from Jeffery Hamelman's Bread a number of times recently but continually run into the same problem most times when I make it. When I get to the time to pre-shape and then shape the dough it never really seems like it has enough gluten development as the dough is quite sticky and even if I pre-shape it, it doesn't really form a nice "skin" from the surface tension and just slowly sinks during the final proof. Each time I stretch and fold the dough it seems like it is coming together well. The dough is not particularly sticky (a little water on my hands stops it from sticking) and it stretches easily without tearing. When it comes time to pre-shape though it is stickier than it seemed during the stretch and folds and after pre-shaping and shaping doesn't seem to have the structure a dough ready for final proofing should have and, as mentioned, sinks a fair bit. When I come to slash the dough before baking the blade always catches in the dough and it is impossible to get a good cut. This is another reason why I think the problem might be lack of gluten development. I would love to be able to figure what I am doing wrong as the bread itself is really tasty (which is some consolation at least!). Please let me know if photos or any further information might help you more experienced bakers with a diagnosis. Find below the recipe and the process I use.Pain au Levain with whole wheat225g white flour90g whole wheat flour19g rye flour234g water113g stiff levain6.5g saltThe process I follow is as follows:1. Mix flours and water and leave to autolyse for 45 minutes2. Mix levain and salt and bring dough together by stretching and folding for about 3 minutes. The dough is quite smooth by the time I finish and seems like gluten development has started quite well.3. Three stretch and folds at 30 minute intervals4. Leave for a final 50 minutes to 1 hour after final stretch and fold (so roughly 2 1/2 hours total bulk fermentation)5. Pre-shape and leave for 20 - 30 minutes6. Final shaping and leave to proof for 2 - 2 1/2 hours7. Bake at 440F for 40 minutesMany thanks,Shaun /nai: Two possibilities I've made this bread multiple times and have not had the experience you describe.I think of two possibilities:1. "stretching and folding for about 3 minutes" is not enough. I stretch and fold for 10 to 15 minutes, during which I give myself a couple of rests for about a minute to let the dough relax; it makes the task easier. This ensures good gluten network.2. Flour - Hamelman recommends 11.5 to 12% protein for his sourdough bread.The rest of the process looks stop on. PS: I made this into baguettes for the current community challenge on this site. Worked great.Cheers,Gavin.

/nhuman: Feedback Friday!? I apologize if a general feedback thread already exists - if so please point me in that direction!Like many others I hopped on the #quarantinystarter sourdough starter bandwagon in April and I've been baking sourdough for the last few months (a couple loaves every week or two), each time I make one regular boule and then switch something up in the second boule to compare. I've mostly been using the Cooks Illustrated Quarantine Boule recipe (super easy to work into your life timeline) and using Gold's bread flour in place of KA. This loaf was made with 25% Gold's whole wheat and I used the slap and fold (felt like it was maybe overkill, seemed to take me forever to get it "smooth") with a 24 hour final fermentation in the fridge. Doesn't smell very sour but definitely packs a sourdough punch when tasting which I love. Also the tighter crumb would make it easier for sandwiches, etc. Overall I'm super pleased with it... but critique away!1. In general a denser crumb which I'm attributing to the whole wheat substitution? 2. A tad dense at the bottom, with more airy holes (not huge) lining the upper crust. Looking at my previous crumbs some have similar dense bottoms but not all, so I don't know if it's my oven/dutch oven.3. Any other feedback...!!?Just a newbie looking to learn from my peers! Thanks! /nai: Looks like a nice loaf and Looks like a nice loaf and nicely scored as well.

/nhuman: Thick Whole wheat starter with low hydration doughs Hi, I started sourdough a few months ago with a 100% hydration whole wheat starter.  It is so thick it comes out of the jar in one big mass.  Compared to my partner's AP starter that is like a thick pancake batter.  I find when I try a very low hydration dough (40-45%), it is difficult to get the it to come together. Once I cheated after 10 minutes of kneading and added some water to incorporate the flour.  Another time I used the stand mixer to bring it together and then did some extra stretch and folds before it was ready to bulk. I'm only guessing it is my thicker starter, but it seems logical to me.  I'm curious if anyone else has a similar issue and what tricks yall use.  I see no reason to change my starter as most of my recipes are higher hydration and not a problem. If it matters, I only keep 10g of starter and then feed as necessary instead of discarding. Thanks. /nai: 40-45% ! that’s very low hydration indeed. What kind of flour do you use for that and what kind of bread does it make?my 100% rye starter is like cement mix after I feed it. But it softens up when ripe. You can mix it in your water before adding flour so that it gets distributed well. if the hydration feels too low, why not add more water. Depending on flours used hydration can vary quite a bit from the recipe. Adjust it until you get what it should feel like instead of sticking strictly to formulas. James

/nhuman: Larger structure at top of finished loaf I've noticed on my last two bakes - one a boule and the other a focaccia - that there are much larger bubbles at the top of the structure of the crumb. What does this imply? I'm still pretty happy with how they look, but I'm wondering if it means something that this happened a few different times. I had a few other bakes with a different starter where the crumb was the same level of openness, but more scattered in terms of the larger and smaller openness. Any ideas? /nai: More pictures, a focaccia You can see the more open structure at the top of the focaccia.  20200723_152606.jpg

/nhuman: starter in water vs. starter after autolyse Some recipes have you dissolve your starter in water, add flour, autolyse, salt, then stretch/poof/retard.  They give rough proofing times, but don't say if time in autolyse contributes to the total.  I'm assuming it does, since the yeasts presumably are getting to work from the outset in such a scenario. Is that right? The longer I bake the less I pay attention to time, and the more to what the dough is doing, but timeframes are helpful.  Other recipes have you autolyse before you add the starter.  Do people prefer one method over the other?  Seems the first ensures even yeast distribution by dissolving in water while the second wants flour and water to meet and hang out together before involving the yeast.  Love to hear opinions from more experienced bakers about this. /nai: You're right, time is You're right, time is supposed to start from addition of starter. Make a difference? Tried both but not for me. I find it's easier to dissolve and I like easy.

/nhuman: Starter not strong enough - create new or treat better? I decided to write  after a lot of "kind of" failures with my sourdoughs, where I think clue is maintaining my starter.It is capable of a little more than double, usually about 220% of feeding volume. When I give it more food, like 1:5:5 it grows barely 200%, when I give it 1:2:2 it grows about 250%. Tried different temperatures, different ratios, different flours. Tried two/three times to use your maintaining schedule by Kristen in order to create more strength, but after 2 weeks it still makes max. 220-250%. I am observing that my breads are growing similar volumes like starter which gives them poor (let's call it half satysfying) oven spring, no matter other staff (tried every other schedule, recipes, etc).I am feeding it mainly twice a day (tried three but have work issue) with 80% strong bread flour (12,5 g proteins) and 20% full rye. It grows 220-250% and then I feed it just before it starts collapsing. Starter was born by my friend in November. I am thinking about creating new starter from the same flour I use now but... It seems some kind counterintuitive to me :) Don't know what to do.Attaching a few photos which shows my breads - as you see starter creates fool's crumb or overproofed dough with completely no oven spring. After a few months I see there is no option to create more oven spring. Still flat, CO2 bubbles no satysfying, but every bread quite airy inside.     I think and feel, that I quite mastered autolysing, a few mixing techniques, folding (strech and fold, coil folding), judging bulk level, pre-shaping, shaping. No matter what I do (and just lastly I did 20-30 breads with combining different techniques and timings) the oven spring is not what I expect. That's because I think starter strength could be the reason (I am adding it when it still has strength, when it's not so runny). No I don't know, create new starter and compare? Or try to heal the first one? Or maybe try to find problem in other place? /nai: Your starter is doing better Your starter is doing better than you think.Take a black marking pen and mark the level of your starter when mixed (the rubber band), then mark it when mature. Now clean out the jar, place it on your scale and tare it out. Fill the jar with water and note the weight in grams. Now add that weight in water to the jar, mark with your marker. Now add enough water to reach the high level mark that you put when you marked the starter’s max height.You will be surprised to see how much it actually rose.Try this-Take 10 grams of your mature starter and mix 30 grams of water and 50 grams of flour. You will have to knead this by hand a few minutes. Then place the /all of dough into a small, narrow clear glass and mark the height. Let it mature and mark the height again. Post a closeup image of the matured starter.Your starter looks good to me, bu5 with a little effort it will improve even more...That is close to 3x.

/nhuman: Is it safe to preheat this glass cookware and expose it to a cold dough? Hello, im trying to bake my first loaf of sourdough bread and i will be using a dutch oven made out of glass, my question is: can i preheat it at 500 degrees Fahrenheit, take it out of the oven and deposit a cold dough that just came out of the fridge without cracking or shattering the pot?Will i be better off just leaving the dough inside the pot, and put it in my oven before i turn on the heat? Will this method affect how different my bread will turn out?The pot has an engraving on it saying "VISION CORNING" and the lid says "Pyrex ®"I borrowed it from a family member and i really don't want to crack or shatter it :/ /nai: I really wouldn't.  500F is I really wouldn't.  500F is scary hot.  Generally I'd think twice before taking Pyrex much above 400F in any situation, especially an old or borrowed piece.  Even taking it out of the oven into cooler air could be too much thermal stress.  I would really urge you to look around for cast iron or aluminum -- there are lots of old pots about!

/nhuman: Pasta Madre Maintenance - starter turns into soup Hi everyone,I'm new to the Fresh Loaf, so apologies if this has been asked before! I tried to find an answer here and elsewhere but the internet doesn't seem to have many english resources on pasta madre.I have not had any problems maintaining a stiff starter (40-50% hydration) before but this time, when I tried to maintain a pasta madre (40% hydration), it's not working. When I keep it in water, the PM is mostly dissolved within 6 hours or so, and what is left is too soft to work with (squeeze out water, shape back into a log). When I tried the bound method, by 12 hours it had turned into soup (texturally like a 80% hydration starter). If anyone has any ideas on what might have gone wrong, or how I could improve, I would appreciate the insight!For context, with the waterbath, the PM is kept at 27-30C. Unfortunately, this is as cool as it gets in Singapore. With the bound method, I keep it at 23C at night, and around 27-30C in the day. I figured this might be the issue - overfermentation? /nai: If your temp is too high, If your temp is too high, maybe a cooler or styrofoam box could be used along with a cooling agent like frozen "ice packs" and maybe a thermometer.If it gets too cold you can leave the lid open or just crack it a bit

/nhuman: The Sourdough Framework https://github.com/hendricius/the-sourdough-frameworkNot mine but I thought folks might find it interesting. The Sourdough FrameworkThe sourdough framework is an open-source book dedicated to helping you to make the best possible sourdough bread at home.Rather than providing recipes this book intends to provide a framework that enables you to bake bread in your respective environment. Every flour, every sourdough, and every home setup is different. This makes following recipes without background information so hard and a fail-prone endeavor. This book intends to close that gap.Background4 years after launching the repositories the-bread-code and pizza-dough I created this project to merge the knowledge together. This project intends to go one step deeper into the workings of natural fermentation. At the same time as many scientific references as possible are provided.Download compiled .pdf versionDownload compiled .epub versionDownload compiled .mobi versionDownload compiled .azw3 version /nai: Gary,  just skimmed the index Gary,  just skimmed the index, saw the link to making dough more sour, and read your suggestion of partial baking then cooling, then baking again.  Never heard of that before and will be trying that this weekend.  Thanks.

/nhuman: Wait to Feed a New Starter? Hi all, newbie to the forum, Should I wait for maximum expansion and the start of collapse before feeding each time?Context:Did have a viable starter, then forgot it for a few days and started again, since then haven't been able to get a start up and running:Thought it was temperature variation, so built a proofing box out of an old tabletop oven. Constant temp 27 deg C on stone slab (as a heat sink), 28-29 air temp. So that's not the problem.What I have now after a week of 1:1:1 each day. Started with Rye and now doing inorganic white. Help muchly appreciated!! Malcolm in New Zealand. /nai: Reviving a starter for a week Is like making a new starter. If you have been feeding it come what may everyday even if there hasn't been activity then you probably ended up with fresh flour and water. Leave it alone now and see what happens.

/nhuman: Poolish deflates and rise back My poolish was in room temp for about 6 hours and then i put the poolish in the refrigerator.. the next morning.. it deflates ... but when i let it sit in room temp it will rise again .. is it normal? Thank you in advance hope you can shed light to this experience fellow bakers. Newbie in artisan baking thank you /nai: I wouldn't say normal, but we I wouldn't say normal, but we know air expands when warm and contracts when cold. Could it just be deflated cuz of the cold in the fridge, and reflating cuz of the warmth when you take it out?Reflating ha, is that even a word. I'm tired - Enjoy!

/nhuman: Loosing height in my poolish bakes Hi all - New today to The Fresh Loaf. Enjoying it already. I'm quite new to long fermentation bakes (building my way up from overnight rises to full sourdough starters bread by bread). I'm following the recipes and techniques from Ken Forkish's Artisan Bakers book - which so far have been great. Learnt loads and getting good results. Just looking for some advice about my poolish bakes. I'm getting a good rise on my 14 hr overnight ferment and although it's a pretty wet dough, I'm getting a good amount of gas build up following the mix and folds. And then good rise during the final proof.But regardless of what I try to get more tension into the dough (solid mix and three folds during the first hour of the rise) when I turn it out of the banneton it loses its shape and spreads. It rises a bit in the oven and tastes delicious - but I get much more height from other methods.Is this the case for Poolish breads? Or should I be able to retain the shape of my round banneton when I turn out?Thanks!  Simon /nai: Regardless of method, a well Regardless of method, a well developed dough should be able to hold some sort of shape (well developed as in a good amount of gluten and strong gluten). If it's fine up up to proofing, fermentation (in this case the poolish) may have gone to long. This can destroy gluten, and gluten is what gives dough the ability to hold shape. Too much water will also have an effect as will an overly acidic starter, low protein flour, or just a change in the starter (if it's more active it'll need less time before things go south). Try lowering fermenting time, or lowering starter amount to keep closer to original timings. Good luck and Enjoy!

/nhuman: I truly have no idea when my sourdough is done fermenting and it's frustrating. I've tried the fingerpoke test. It almost always seems to do the same thing after the first hour: recoils a little but not all the way. Same with the windowpane test: it almost always (after the first hour) forms a thin windowpane and then rips if I stretch it too thin. It always has some bubbles after a 2-3 hours. It always feels nice and 'jiggly' after a couple hours. I really think this is holding me back and i dunno how to tell when its done. Thanks for any help you may have. /nai: I don't think windowpane is I don't think windowpane is any use for deciding when bulk is done. One thing you could try would be to put a small amount of the dough in a straight-side container, and mark the level with a rubber band. Keep it next to the bulk dough, and when the small amount has almost doubled in size, or maybe two-thirds, shape your bulk for the second proof.

/nhuman: Where is DaBrownMan? I have tried reaching out to Dab for some time now and got no answer.If anyone has a n alternate method of contact, try to connect with him and let us know how he is doing.Danny /nai: Was wondering the same thing ditto

/nhuman: Crumb Structure of my First Sourdough Bread Ever? (A begginer's odissey) Greetings from Brazil! I've been lurking for a while here, and wanted an opinion on my first sourdough bread!I'll try to detail what I've done as best as I can remember (notes not with me right now). All temps (water, air, dough) were around 27-29°C (81 - 84°F) throughout the whole process.  Let´s start with the... starter! My starter was built during 10 days straight, around an average temperature of 26°C (79°F).It started as a 100% whole wheat and I converted to 50% AP / 50% WW day 6 or 7.The feedings were 24h apart, 1:1:1, with discards, to maintain 50g of initial culture. I did this throughout the WHOLE process.  So 50g + 50g + 50g = 150g the whole time.The starter went through all the expected cycles: Initial day 1 (or 2) growth surge, with acidic, cheesy, vomit like smell.On day 3 and 4, it developed a very acidic smell, while the foul ones were gone. Not many bubbles. Small ones.On day 5 and forward, it developed a sweet, yeasty smell, which cycled between fruity, boozy, aromatic (reminding acetone, not ethanol). This marked the initiation of a rise (doubled in volume) and fall, of a period between 8 to 12h. Bubble action sighted. Especially on the walls of the container!Day 7 to 10, I started feeding 12h apart, so 2 daily feedingsOn day 10, 5 days of consistent rise and fall cycles of 8-12h, I decided to do a float test, which passed. There, I decided to give a 1:5:5 feeding and put it on refrigeration. My first sourdough bake: For my Levain, I did't know exactly how much I was going to use, so I took 60g of refrigerated starter and build 180g of levain with a 1:1:1 ratio. That was 12h hours before my expected bake time, following what my starter was doing already (not a set time frame or formula)Next day, on bake time, my levain had doubled in volume and passed the float test, as expected (thank god, whew!)My recipe was based on a total of 400g flour, as follows:- 300 g Regular AP Flour.- 100 g Regular Whole Wheat flour.- (70%) 280 g Carbon FIltered tap Water (reserved 40 g to dissolve the salt and add after autolyse)- (20%) 80 g levain (100% hydration, 50% AP / 50% whole wheat)- (2%) 8 g salt That's around 750g of fresh dough So for the bread itself, I went with the "Tartine" method, more or less, aiming for a boule shape:Mix (almost all of) the water with flour and levain. Waited 30 min. "Autolyse".In the bowl, I've added the rest of the water with the salt, incorporated the water and waited 10 min.During bulk fermentation (around 2,5h to 3h) I did 3 sets of folds and 3 sets of coil folds, 25 min apart.The bulk fermentation time was guided by visual cue: I placed a small piece of dough inside a small cylindrical container after my first set of folds. When I saw it had doubled in volume, I knew I had to stop the folds and begin preshaping.Did the initial pre shaping, taking care not to degas the dough, formed into a tight ball and put it onto a floured surface and covered with a kitchen towel.During final shaping, into a boule, I encountered some difficulty during the final stage, where you have to use a scraper/spatula to create tension on the dough. As I had to use water instead of flour (the inverse process of pre shaping) I could't do it properly by hand, so I figured my oven spring would suffer. After I figured I was done, I put the dough into the same bowl, covered with heavily floured towels (No rice flour, scraper/spatula and banneton available. All by hand)I refrigerated the dough for 5 hours, so I could bake the same day (at night).Took it out of the bowl, straight into a hot (500°F) cast iron pan, scored it, and put the lid on (dutch oven). No Ice cubes, no nothing. 20 min bake at 500°F lid on.35 min bake at 450°F lid off (bake to color). This is the final result, 18,5 cm total diameter. 7 cm height. Does the crumble look ok? Felt kinda irregular, somewhat moist and shiny at some points. I expected something bigger but it seems that a 750g boule would produce something along those lines.Nevertheless, I assume it was a success, as it has risen, and it was nice and tasty! Not very tangy, could be more.Opinions? /nai: I think most would say good I think most would say good crumb, save for the big gaps I'll call them up near the top. That could be a sign of things being a tad over, probably fermented.The train is on the right track and it's pulling into the station you're about there!

/nhuman: Reading Bubbles: My Starter Hates Me Hello,I've had a functioning starter with which I have made bread (25 gr. mature starter, 50 gr all-purpose, 50 gr. rye, 100 gr water) which has now decided to change its bubbles and fail every float test despite rising greatly in volume. I was forced to change the brand of rye I use but nothing else has changed and I have fed it at least a dozen times since the flour brand change.Does anyone understand what my starter is telling me with these sort of non-popped glassy bubbles? It's rising well (although slowly) and there is definitely something happening but I just don't understand why I don't get those sort of frothy bubbles anymore. /nai: The cause could be anything, The cause could be anything, but what I can tell is that your starter is healthy and well. It rises greatly and is super bubbly, no mold. When using rye, dough becomes more porous due to poor gluten.The float test is a hit and miss, it's not a reliable answer to whether your starter is ready or not. As long as it at least doubles in size, peaks and has fallen a little, it's ready to go.

/nhuman: Starter Maintenance Question Hi all! I have just finished my 2 week feed cycle to creating my starter and have moved it to the fridge to keep and maintain, and I have my first sourdough loaf proving right now! My question is this: I moved my starter to the fridge and it says to feed/maintain once a week (recipe from Cook's Illustrated Bread Illustrated), but if I were to make something with it on Wednesday and it's maintenance day is Saturday, do I just still wait till Saturday and use what is left to maintain my starter? Or do it do it whenever I use some of it? Thanks!! /nai: You pick! You can do either one -- starters, once you've got them going a while, are very hardy! I build levains for my bread, which means I only keep a bit of starter in the fridge and whenever I want to make a loaf, I pull a bit out and build from there. The leftover goes back into the starter jar to "refresh" it, but I never feed it separately (I would if I didn't bake for weeks, but that rarely happens). Your starter sounds very new, and those are a little finickier, so I might avoid stretching its schedule out TOO much.

/nhuman: Back-engineering starter fr genuine Neapolitan pizza dough. Next step? Back-engineering starter fr genuine Neapolitan pizza dough. Next step? Dear TFL community, I'm seeking help. I'm hoping to reverse-engineer a culture from fully proofed pizza dough w/ a lineage precious to me: 2 different sources, made with a strain of natural leavening continued day to day for 5 generations in Napoli, where my mother's family is from. I hadn't fed it or done anything with it till today; it's been neglected in fridge for months (pandemic re-prioritizing all else). Good sign: 13.5 hrs after first feed (1:2:2) there are tiny bubbles, size of pin pricks, on bottom; one or 2 slightly smaller than soda straw. Presumably no gas production yet: level hasn't changed perceptibly, and taut rubber-banded plastic wrap over top not stretched. It's extremely stiff. Presumably the dough was ~~75% hydration or less. My 2 feeds have been 100% hydration, but only 1:2:2.   What's my next step?  Besides (1) what ratio to feed, I also need (2) advice re TIMING of feeds.(Well, that's nearly everything.) Feed #2 was 14.5 hrs later (same as #1) The next I can do would be anywhere from 5-9 hrs from feed #2.  I can't make the next feeds at 12 hour intervals, as tonight I hope to be asleep before 5:30 AM/05:30. My schedule is fairly nocturnal due to work across time zones but irregular.I could ask family to do some when they are awake & I'm not. Since I can't expect to hear for a while, I'll probably just keep refeeding as below (1:2:2). Or should I do less, at shorter intervals, to move to a schedule that keeps to 12 hours? Or not feed till more active?Fed 1:2:2 by weight/grams, using 00 Caputo flour and spring water. Feed #2 same, 14.5 hrs later. Jar & all utensils cleaned w boiling water just prior. I am working from flat white core.Ambient temp low-mid 70s; varies day/night.Important re original sample: I did not receive a starter, per se. Sample was fully proofed pizza dough, from natural starter. Italian starters tend to be very stiff.Pizza dough is likely to be 70-75% hydration, if the recipes I've seen here are characteristic, as they claimI have several other samples (clean, flat white from interior) in clean jars in fridge, as backup or to experiment with alternate methods.I re-read everything I could find in the course of 4 hrs on TFL & a few other sites re reviving neglected starter, which guided me. Thanks to all. However, I'm in an anomalous situation since this was dough, not starter, when I got it.   To make this more of a long shot, these pieces of dough have been neglected in my fridge for many months. I feel bad about that. The pandemic keeps giving me new and urgent responsibilities. I kept thinking that "soon" things would settle down, but I now know it's just going to get worse. So I know this revival project is a long shot, but I'd be grateful for any best guesses about what to try. My immediate goal: is just to see if anything I do now can continue the possibility of keeping these organisms alive. ( I do understand that a starter evolves in response to everything in its new environment so I can't truly keep that original starter going.)  I'll be as patient as need be. I don't have any kind of deadline and won't have time to switch over to baking with them for a good while. Many thanks for any help! I refer many people to this site (esp. those asking non-bread-specialists on national newspaper sites) and I always say: TFL is what we had naively hoped the internet would be: people who know what they're talking about, generously sharing info and advice with others, for no personal gain. Be well. Stay safe. Thanks so much, Panettiera /nai: Panettiera,  I hope you will Panettiera,  I hope you will soon hear from those that know what they are talking about  ( I don't fall into that camp, though I do make sourdough pizza every week).  First,  starters are very hard to kill, and though you started with dough, not starter,  I don't see that as a problem.  In terms of timing, I can't give you any firm ideas, you will need to watch it to see how it goes.  I think your first goal is to get it back to consistently rising, then once you have it up and going well, then I would head over to pizzamaking.com forum,  which has a board just on starters and another one just on neopolitan recipes and that should give you more info on how to adapt it to best make your pizza.In general, yeast will act more quickly as temperature increases ( doubles every increase of 17 F ) and also the higher the hydration.  I think your current objective should be to get it reproducing faster, so I would increase the hydration, and cut back on the food and keep it around 80 F the first few times to get it active.  So I would try 1 starter, 2 water and 1 flour, then wait 4 to 12 hours to see if it increases in size, and once it does, try to repeat that again  , then start increasing the flour to get back to 100% hydration.  If you think it has gone bad, you can try to wash it https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40990.0  Good luck  .  Barry.

/nhuman: Do not preheat oven recipe I have a recipe for sourdough bread where the bread starts baking in a cold oven.  After the various rising and resting the recipe states "place the pan with the loaf in your oven, then turn your oven to 350 and bake for 30-45 minutes.  Do not preheat the oven"   Has anyone else heard of this?  Does it sound right?  Should I give it a try? /nai: I've heard good things.... About baking bread starting with a cold oven, but I must admit I have never tried it myself.  You might want to search around a little on the forums for advice about starting your loaf in a non-preheated oven?  Good luck with it, anyhow!

/nhuman: seeking feedback Hello everyone.I feel like I'm starting to get some consistency in my bakes but still feel a bit challenged by a couple of things.First, here is my newest loaf. Decent crumb. Good expansion in dutch oven. Flour was 250g bread, 150g whole wheat bread, and 100g rye. 80% hydration.Based on these photos, how do people feel about the fermentation level? Under, over, or just right?As for my two challenges, what might I do differently to obtain a more open crumb and a better ear? /nai: Looks just right to me. Why do you want a more open crumb. Looks ok to me.

/nhuman: Does this starter look healthy at room temp? I’ve been growing my starter for about 3 weeks and I’m struggling a bit regarding the temperature and growth. We get fairly cold winters, plus we live in a drafty basement suite so I don’t know if I’m keeping it at an ideal temperature. Our thermostat says 69F but I’m pretty sure its at least a couple of degrees colder in the kitchen. It seems strong enough; currently I’m feeding it 2 times a day at a 1:5:5 (15g starter, 75g water, 50g AP flour, 25g rye). When I keep it in the oven with the light on, it grows fantastically and peaks within 4-5 hours - more than doubling in size. When I keep it on my counter, it grows significantly slower. Below are pictures all taken today; first feed was at 8am and the lines show the growth by 2pm. During this time I kept it in the oven with the light on. By 2pm, the starter had already peaked and shrank slightly (as seen in top down photo). I used my instant digital thermometer and it said it was 99F. At 2pm, I fed it and kept it on my counter. By 8pm, it barely grew at all, although it still looked lively (again, top down photo provided). This time the starter temp came to 78F. BF8E473B-D94E-4F23-B26B-EDACFFB23D39.jpeg D03828E9-E08E-405D-B513-EC3AF750BA03.jpeg 73E8A5C0-6B6B-4FEE-86F5-8617194E9964.jpeg 49265B4E-DF44-4D5A-9E1B-3F4073C23E66.jpeg The difference in two 6 hour periods, with all other factors being the exact same, simply due to temperature is very obvious. Is this normal or do I have a weak starter? And is there a way to get it to grow more quickly at room temperature? /nai: Smaller feeds for lower temperatures You could skip a feeding tonight to let it catch up, then try feeding 1:2:2 in the morning for 12 hours @ 69F. It will take longer for those big feeds to mature at the lower temps. See how it does, then reassess. Otherwise, your starter looks good and strong to me :)

/nhuman: Hello, all, I'm back again Hello, everyone, I'm back again--and of course I need help desperately.I've actually been around, just haven't had anything to add to the conversations, so just been lurking.Now, I'm at my wits' end. Even though Karina is a very happy starter since the last time I received help here, her daddy (that would be me) hasn't been as happy. Just. Can't. Seem. To. Master. A. Good. Loaf.My last attempt at a sourdough loaf was just a couple of days ago, on the 11th. The recipe I used was from Home Grown Happiness, and the result was what I've become accustomed to by this time. Talk about that in a minute.Previous attempt was a recipe from Alexandria's Kitchen, with the same result.So, to assuage my guilt and to build my sagging confidence, I decided to build a traditional-yeast bread, one that I've had success with before from Flavors of Spain in the Southwest. This basic--but high hydration--bread was actually pretty easy before--but this time, I got the exact same result as I did with my sourdough loaves.What was that result? Take a look at the picture and just imagine my disappointment.  d3217496-66bd-4409-9b21-3f485ee621d5.jpg This is actually the second time this week I've tried this dough, and both times were exactly the same. The picture shows the result after the 12-hour room-temperature final proofing.Now, with the two sourdough loaves, I'm assuming that probably environmental differences  were to blame, since Mexico--especially right now--is undoubtedly a lot hotter than where those two recipes came from. And even hotter than the Flavors of Spain loaf, since I believe he mentioned that the ambient temperature was around 80 degrees, and yesterday and the previous time, I was working in 90 degree heat. (Yesterday, I actually reduced the timing of the stretches and folds by five minutes each from the times recommended in the video to help compensate.) The previous time I had success with this dough was in April, obviously not nearly as warm as it is now.Am I correct in deducing that I'm experiencing overproofing? And am I going in the right direction by reducing proofing times? Obviously, the reduction I made yesterday wasn't successful.I'd appreciate any suggestions anyone might have to help me get back in the saddle and build my confidence back. Right now, I'm just accepting making some super-delicious pancakes from my starter discard.Thanks in advance! /nai: That dough is over, way over. That dough is over, way over. As others also come out like this they are also over (fermented proofed or both). Fortunately an easy fix.

/nhuman: Crumb and Spring Opinion Hello there! It’s been a while, but I had some issues with my starter, so I had to doctor it for a while. Anyway, I’m back, and I started off small; with a lowish hydration loaf. What do you guys think?  47433183-51D6-4E8C-A84F-096850166BF9.jpeg 0B263130-A735-412B-852D-4E77387B05DA.jpeg D4E21032-BE44-48D8-A16F-683519582EB4.jpeg /nai: Looks pretty good I think you good have bake a little  longer because i looks a bit pale. But tha can be a question of taste.

/nhuman: Potato experiment I’m thinking of trying a small experiment with my next bake, and adding some instant potato flakes to my recipe (Beginner’s Sourdough Bread, The Fresh Loaf). I’m hoping for a softer crumb than what I’ve been getting, and I’ve read that potato flakes can give that. I’m thinking of replacing about 10-15% of the flour in the recipe with potato flakes.  Would I need to adjust my hydration to do this?  And would this percentage change make a big enough difference?  Would I need to add a dough conditioner like viral wheat gluten, or would increasing the protein% defeat the purpose? (I’ve also got some buttermilk and some heavy cream that I could work with, although I haven’t yet read anything about the effects of using either of those ingredients.  Any tips welcome!) Thanks, everyone! /nai: That will soften it, always That will soften it, always loved potato bread. How much water - whatever is recommended to reconstitute the flakes would be the logical place to start - probably be spot on. Buttermilk, cream, also soften things up - like most fats. Lower protein flour or milled from summer/soft wheat (usually used for cake flour), control gluten development (that's what makes it tough so you doing want too much), and my #1 favorite Olive oil - another fat, but such a good one. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Newbie looking for a starter mentor <3 Hi! I hope you are all staying safe and sane.I made a starter about a month ago with organic whole wheat flour at 100% hydration, with 45g of flour and 45g of water. After the first week(ish, maybe 9 days), when it was rising to about double, I put the discard (roughly 1/2 of the volume) into a new container (both containers are plastic, does this matter?) and I have been feeding both once a day, with unbleached, unbromated King Arthur AP flour since then. They were suuuuper runny, like I could pour the discard into the sink and it would just go away, I didn't have to rinse it or dissolve it, it would slip right from the spatula, I didn't have to wipe it. It had bitty bubbles and smelled yeasty but it wasn't really doubling in volume.In the last week, I started adding 5g more of flour than water and it has a little more body, the bubbles are a little bigger, especially when I stir it, I see bigger bubble structure inside, but it's still pretty runny. It's watery but stretchy. If I tried to scoop a spoonful to see if it floats it couldn't hold its shape on a spoon at all, though.Is that normal? should I keep going? change something?Also, when can I put them in the fridge and feed them less often? and if I need to use, let's say, 250g of starter, do I need to feed it little by little until I get to more than 250g so I don't use it all, or how does it actually work? Sorry, I'm excited about having something grow from nothing but I'm pretty ignorant of the process.I look forward to hearing back from someone! thank you for your help! :) <blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/g6ibaez"  ><a href="//imgur.com/a/g6ibaez">runny sourdough starter</a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>link to imgur, in case the embed doesn't work /nai: We're here to help Welcome to sourdough baking! I'm sure you'll find a lot of great, knowledgable people on this site who are willing to help you whenever you need it.Though I am a bit confused; what's your inoculation percentage for your starter? 1 part starter to 1 part flour? Less than that? You only seemed to specify volume, which isn't too helpful since it doesn't provide a ratio by weight. If your innoculation is 1:1, the recommended upper limit, then a once a day feeding probably isn't enough. To only feed your starter once a day at room temperature, you'll probably need to reduce the innoculation to 1 part starter to 6+ parts flour. Alternatively, you could just feed your starter more often; a 1:1 ratio starter will likely need 3 feedings a day, which is really annoying, so I'd say a 1: 4-5 ratio starter is better since it only needs a twice a day feeding. If your house is colder at room temperature, you might be able to bump it up to a 1: 2-3 ratio.Also, how does it smell? Does it smell like alcohol? That'd be a clear sign that your starter is hungry and needs a higher flour ratio too.

/nhuman: Diluting gluten content with non-wheat flours? In the search for a lower protein flour than I can procure locally, it occurred to me that it might be possible to get the effect by diluting a bread flour with some other gluten-free flour (e.g., rice, besan, tapioca starch, ...). And absent any usable clues from Google, TFL seemed like a logical place to inquire.Does anybody have any experience (or even suggestions without experience, since I have none and can remain unbiased for at least one trial)?If I don't get something either useful or at least interesting I will just do it.Doc /nai: I hear a little cornstarch I hear a little cornstarch has been used to make high gluten flour more like cake flour. I tried it once for laughs a long time ago - don't exactly remember how much (couple teaspoons maybe) and didn't really notice much difference in anything. May have been to little to make a difference in my 17% protein flour. Google it for more details.

/nhuman: bulk fermentation and retarding Hi there,Just needing some guidance again. As it always happens, bulk fermentation isn't complete and I'm tired and sleepy so I've put the dough in the fridge to retard.  The recipe calls for a 8-10 BF at 21c. and its  BF'ed for about 7.5 hrs but it still doesn't look done so i popped it in the fridge and i'm heading to bed.  It's 12:30 am and I have to work tomorrow and won't get to it until about 6pm.  So it'll have to be in the fridge til then. Will it be over fermented?   And what should i do with it after i get home from work? If it looks like it has completed BF during that time in the fridge, should i just shape it and bake it right away?  And if it looks like it hasn't risen at all, should i leave it at room temp. until it rises more? I'm trying to go for an open crumb.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  Good night. cc /nai: LoafLove, please provide the LoafLove, please provide the formula. 8-10 hr @ 21C is doable, but the Levain should be fairly small. To solve your dilemma you could do a number of things.BF warmeruse a larger percentage of levain (assuming SD)Once we see the formula, other ideas may come to mind. You can control the timing of any bread dough and should be able to work with your schedule.If I solve your timing, will you clean my teeth? LOLDanny

/nhuman: There are white spots on my sourdough starter PLEASE HELP I started my sourdough starter on June 8th, today is the 5th day. The first three days my starter was fine. There were bubbles, and hooch when my starter was hungry. Starting on the fourth day, I noticed that hooch appeared twice so I fed it twice that day. After that, my starter had a water split (a layer of water on top of the starter but it didn't smell bad). Currently, my starter doesn't smell bad. It smells sour, a tad vinegary, but not harsh and not disgusting. Today, after not checking it for the entire day (left it in a warm enough spot), I notice that the water line is more definite. Bubbles on the surface of my starter are gone. And there are white spots (they look like bacteria growing on a petri dish). I don't know if my starter is dying or it is just going through an inactive phase. Please help me. THANK YOU. /nai: Debra Wink in her article Debra Wink in her article describes the 4 stages that a new sourdough passes through. Yours seems to be on-trend.I suggest you read this:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2Cheers,Gavin

/nhuman: Testing my Challenger Bread Pan vs. my Enameled Cast Iron Dutch Oven Hey bread bakers,This week I tested out my new Challenger Bread Pan against my standard dutch oven that I have been using for almost a year (a Lodge enameled cast iron dutch oven).I baked the same size sourdough boules (about 860g) in each baking vessel and compared the results at the end.The video detailing the whole process is included below if anyone is interested in watching - /nai: Excellent video, Grant! Your comparison seemed non-bias and straight forward. After paying so much for the Challenger Pan you almost have to like it. But you made an excellent comparison...The Challenger is a nice pan and better suited for longer batards than a round pot. If the price is not a consideration and the weight is manageable, it is a beautiful piece of cast iron. Thanks for taking the time to, share your review. I enjoy your videos. So much so, I just subscribed to your YouTube Channel.Danny

/nhuman: leaven oomph... I normally make my leaven over night.  It rises well beyond doubling by the time I'm ready to mix.  I recently was unable to get to it though, and by the time I did it had fallen back down to original levels.  I assumed that meant it would not be a good idea to use, so I just made some pan bread out of it (tasty).  Am I right that it would not have given my bread a good rise? Can a fully fallen leaven still rise a loaf? Thanks in advance. /nai: It depends..... Depends on the flour type, feeding proportions and depends on how long it is fermented and at what temperature and hydration.  Most of the time it works.   If you have warmer temps than usual, try mixing up the leaven with ice water and/or set inside a well soaked unglazed terra cotta jar or table wine cooler jar.  This can slow it down maybe enough for your purposes.

/nhuman: Baking staight from the fridge doesn't produce results as good as letting the dough come up to room temperature. And I don't know why. Its so much easier to score the bread when its cold and it doesn't lose its shape as much. I've read about how almost everyone else gets great results, but I dont. most of the time results are just average. I'm not getting good ears, the bread doesn't rise as high, and the texture isn't as nice. I use King Arthurs no knead sourdough recipe. My fridge gets adequately cold. I bake in a dutch oven. I appreciate any help you may have! /nai: What is the fridge temp? I guess it is a but to far proofed. if the fridge temp is above 39°f it can go go on rising.

/nhuman: No pronounced ear, nor a satisfying crunch on the outside: Where did I go wrong? Hello everyone,So it's been nearly 3 months since I've had my sourdough active, and I've been trying to make sourdough bread once or twice every week or so. I wanted to share the latest loaf I baked, because I'm trying to understand where I went wrong.For your information, my dough is the following: 80% French T65, 10% Whole Wheat Flour, 10% Buckwheat Flour, 20% Starter (1:2:2) and 2% Salt.I baked the loaf in a preheated oven, with a baking steel (since my oven can't fit any form of dutch oven or double tray), at 230°C (highest temperature that my oven can go to). I also poured boiling water into two ramekins that were preheated with the oven, and threw couple of ice cubes when I loaded the loaf into the oven: 321740590_532242022256924_1202248436743521874_n.jpg Out of all the oven springs, this one was by far the best I've had. Though, I keep noticing that my oven can't contain the steam for long, as it keeps escaping from the sides. So, I had to spray water every now and then.This was the result: 321785651_1202310190695732_7478706221070369959_n.jpg As you can see, while it has puffed nicely and has good browning, there wasn't an ear that developed while baking. And, while inspecting the loaf, I noticed some sort of a burst on the side: 322586107_2999480216862688_7860203034408263412_n.jpg And finally, once I cut into it, I noticed two things: the crumb was by far the best out of all my loaves (I'll let you all be the judges), but the crust wasn't as crunchy as I hoped. 322514711_8526648110710401_1551303351590481764_n.jpg I would very much like to have as much feedbacks/informations, and I thank you in advance. /nai: Looks like a lack of Steam or humidity to me. That and too much top heat compared to the bottom caused it to seal up and inflate until the pressure was released. Maybe try a tin foil tent at the beginning of the bake to prevent the crust from forming too quickly.

/nhuman: Why is my loaf “pinched”? Hello bakers,I recently purchased a proofing basket and the 4 loaves that I’ve made using the proofing basket come out with “pinched“ sides when I bake them. I’ve attached photos. I had previously been using a towel lined plastic strainer for my final proofing, and never had this happen! Any thoughts on why? /nai: More pictures of my loaf More pictures of my loaf 781E49F2-7D0F-4468-9F04-9336E806EB1C.jpeg

/nhuman: Is this mold floating on the hooch of my discard?? I've been storing my discard in this mason jar for 3-4 weeks in the fridge, adding a little more discard each day. I've probably fed it fresh flour and water once or twice. Usually there is a layer of hooch on top, but today, excited to make some pancakes, I saw this white stuff floating on top of the hooch and maybe on the sides, too. I don't know that I'd say it looks fuzzy like mold, but they definitely look like round circles of something not normal. Note that I hadn't added any discard (or fed it) in at least a week. Anyone know what this is or has seen this before?Yes I know I can just toss it, but I had been saving it for awhile and really wanted to make a big batch of pancakes! I don't usually create much discard so I've been waiting awhile.Help ? Thanks,Jen Editing to add pictures with better lighting: 20200813_071533~2.jpg 20200813_071545~2.jpg 20200810_191130~2.jpg 20200810_191136~2.jpg /nai: Is that really a black coffee Is that really a black coffee brown color?

/nhuman: banneton liners has anyone noticed that when using a banneton liner, the bread proofs more than having the dough directly in the banneton? I decided to use the liner on my batard banneton as I liked the shape it gave but twice now the overnight fridge retard has seen the dough proofed up very high and now im getting less oven spring and a wider loaf when it bakes. /nai: insulation The liner keeps the dough a bit warmer for a bit longer in the fridge. Hence a bit more fermentation.There are several ways to compensate, including a few minutes to start out in the freezer.

/nhuman: Mold issue Hi - I'm just beginning my foray into baking bread. This is my second attempt at a sourdough starter (my first attempt was going well but alas accidentally ended up on the floor). I'm using pineapple juice and white all-purpose flour and am about 48 hours in. It smells right and I'm starting to get some bubbles, but I noticed some mold forming. Is this harmless? Should I scrape it off? Should I ditch this attempt and start again? /nai: Try scooping a part out that Try scooping a part out that isn't affected by mold yet and continue feeding. But if you wanna be on the safe side, start over.

/nhuman: Question on Baking and fermenting Hi! I have had a healthy starter for a few months now, have not baked bread but one other time but have made endless amounts of pancakes. This week I found a recipe I liked and attempted. During the overnight ferment, I woke to find my dough risen beautifully and smelling great but I found a very small hot pink streak (almost looked like food dye) on my dough. I removed it and didn't think anything more. I had assumed it was my Himalayan pink salt (maybe too cheap quality). The bread turned out wonderfully and we enjoyed it.  Last night I attempted the recipe again and I awoke to another beautifully risen dough, smelled light but like sourdough. However as I did my first folds I found two pink streak/dot again. I removed them and folded and have left my bread for its second rise. However, I have small children and I cannot find anywhere what these  hot pink marks can be. I felt fine assuming it was just the salt BUT that hasn't happened to me with other baking that I can recall. Anyone have any ideas on what it could be? I don't think I have ever seen any pink on my actual starter, only discoloration has been some darkening due to staying in the refrigerator too long. /nai: That is very strange, and I That is very strange, and I can understand why it would be cause for alarm.  If nobody else has a better suggestion, it might be worth your while to place a small quantity of this pink stuff, along with some sort of food source, into a clean sealed container.  If it grows, you’ve got a problem (likely mold).  If the pink coloration is from your Himalayan Pink Salt, then it won’t grow or spread under these conditions.

/nhuman: Smart Sourdough - book testers needed Hi. I'm new to this forum as an active participant, but some of you may know me as the author of "Simple Sourdough," a booklet I wrote decades ago that's been popular on Amazon for about fifteen years.For the past few years, I've been working on a new book, "Smart Sourdough," that presents a new and radically different approach to making sourdough. By working with high temperatures and short feeding cycles, I'm able to make 100% naturally fermented sourdough within 24 hours WITHOUT STARTER. That means doing away with maintenance feedings, discards, and everything related. In other words, my sourdough is almost as quick and simple to make as yogurt.My approach is similar to what's known as "Type II sourdough," but adapted for the home. As with Type II, I focus solely on nurturing lactic acid bacteria in the dough, then just add a bit of baker's yeast at the end for the rise. My reasoning is that the special benefits of sourdough come almost entirely from the bacteria -- they are, after all, what put the "sour" in "sourdough"-- so the source of yeast is really not a concern. (And as researchers have shown, most bakers today wind up with baker's yeast in their starters anyway!)Keeping sourdough at just the right temperature can be tricky, but I've found that, with some finagling, it can be done with a variety of kitchen devices. My book includes recommended setups and settings for the Brød & Taylor proofer, an Instant Pot used as a slow cooker, and a sous vide cooker. It also gives tips on adapting other devices you might have.Can I really get much souring in 24 hours? Yes. Before being made into a loaf, my sponge of wheat, water, and salt reaches a pH of about 4.5. The taste can range anywhere from a "sweet" sourdough to mildly sour -- but it's always delicious! Since I add minimal yeast to the loaf -- normally just 1/8 teaspoon -- there is no alcohol taste to overwhelm the subtle sourdough flavors.I've finished a working draft of the book (minus the photos), and I'm looking for bakers of all experience levels to read it, try the method, and provide comments. My idea is to use this thread for feedback and discussion. (So, please make sure you can find it again!)This is open to all Fresh Loaf members. All I ask is that you do NOT share the draft with anyone else, and that you do NOT share my methods or your results outside this forum until the book is ready to order -- hopefully in January.If you agree, please download the draft here:http://www.markshep.com/private/SmartSourdough.pdfMark /nai: I'm willing to be a guinea I'm willing to be a guinea pig. I have a sous vid and a pressure cooker (though a different brand) and a Brod and Taylor proofer and I mill my own grains (using Mockmill 200). I have saved the pdf.

/nhuman: Discouraging Oven Spring Issue Hi all,So it's been nearly a week since I posted my last loafs:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65218/dough-spills-out-too-much-not-just-sourdoughI read every comment, multiple articles online and probably watched this video 5 times:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV3at6kqnWwArmed with that, and a now more mature starter I went ahead and tried again with the same video tutorial:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eod5cUxAHRMAs people said, I reduced hydration down to 65% - the dough became more manageable and didn't spill as much but still way more liquidy than in any videos I watched online.My starter is now super active, doubling within 4-6 hours after feeding. Levain passed the float test after 5 hours. Autolysed for 1 hour and mixed.I reduced bulk ferment time, going by sight and touch. Three stretch&folds, nice domed shape, small bubbles on the surface, jiggly inside. It lasted 2 hours and 45 minutes, down from 4 hours last time.I tried pre-shaping and shaping as to create a nice taut surface without tearing, which I think went quite well. (Another issue I have here, my dough is very very sticky, Joshua's doesn't seem to be that sticky. When I try and rotate it during the shaping with my hand, I just rip it apart. So I had to use a lot of flour on my hand. Is that normal?)Retarded them as in the video I followed overnight.This morning I baked, and as you can see in the photo - I would say I got even less oven spring than last time. I know it's only my second bake and practice makes perfect, but seeing a lower amount of oven spring after adjusting for all the tips you guys gave me and the various videos and articles I read, it's very discouraging.Plus, being a family of 2, we can't go through that many loaves and my freezer is getting full haha.I am craving that elusive oven springy bread with nice open crumb and I can't see to get it :/Any ideas / tips what I can do next time? Where did I go wrong? /nai: substitutions? that video,  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eod5cUxAHRMcalls for mostly US all purpose flour,   some US bread flour, and a little whole wheat flour.In the US, both AP flour and  bread flour are white, refined, and basically branless, at .50 to .55% ash content.How did you match that with your UK flours?  You gave a link to the flour company,  but I did not see if you specified or linked to the exact flour(s) that you used.UK uses a bit different terminology, so you need to focus on the specifications.  Whole wheat in the US might be called whole grain in the UK.US AP flour is about 10.5 to 11.5% protein and .50 to .55% ash.US Bread flour is about 11.7% to 12.5% protein, and .50 to .55% ash.Your loaf in this post, and your dough in the previous post, looks like you substituted in some extra Ww flour, or used a flour that has at least some more bran than white flour, which is called "high extraction" flour.Here's the thing.... if you used a more "bran-y" flour than white/refined flour, but still used the same amount of leaven, and timings, you would overferment the dough.The loaf in this post is less over fermented than the previous post, yet... in terms of suitability for pronounced oven spring, it is still just a smidgen over-proofed.(the loaf in this post looks great to me. I think pronounced oven spring is mainly just aesthetic anyway.)when using a "bran-y" flour, fermentation does not stop in the fridge.  Retard means slowed, not stopped.  Bran-y flour, with all those enzymes in the bran, boosts fermentation more than branless white flour.Net: my guess is that you just didn't match close enough to the US flours called for in Joshua's formula. Too much bran (and the attending enzymes) led to too much fermentation.  And perhaps UK flours have different hydration requirements than US flours. Perhaps some of the UK bakers here can help you in that -- Either in matching ingredients, or in finding a formula that better matches what ingredients you do have.Good luck, and bon appétit.

/nhuman: Dry Yeast Starter Hi folksHaven't looked in for some time.  Hope everyone is well and coping with the worldly woes.Have a question which I instinctively think I know the answer to but this being THE bread forum I feel sure someone will have already done it, got the T-Shirt and can give me the answer.Question:If I take a packet of dry yeast, mix with flour and water and keep feeding it in this way like a sourdough starter what do I end up with? My assumption is that over time the constant addition of flour will gradually result in the natural yeasts in the flour overtaking the dry yeast strains that the mix started out with and thus I just end up with a conventional sourdough starter. If so is there any way, domestically, to culture conventional dry yeast or indeed fresh baker's yeast? Cheers and stay safe /nai: yeast Hi ElPanadero,If I take a packet of dry yeast, mix with flour and water and keep feeding it in this way like a sourdough starter what do I end up with?A sourdough starter because LAB will grow.This was discussed not all that long ago: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/63715/yeast-doubling-timeAlso relevant:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/63870/bread-yeast-vs-wild-yeast-vs-brewers-yeastpages 174-177 extracted from: Handbook on Sourdough Biotechnology (Gobbetti and Gänzle)

/nhuman: Something is wrong with my dough Hi, I have been baking SD with OK success, I have been using different recipes but I like Tartine country classic.Lately something its happening o my dough, 2 hrs into BF it grows crazy and becomes super stretchy unable to shape really and my bread is flat- takes good, but looks horrible.I am using:900 grs of Organic Artisan Balers craft plus100 grs of WWI autolysed for an hr then start BF at 75 on proofer.I think might be the flour.....but honestly no idea. /nai: Is it very sticky? Stretchy Is it very sticky? Stretchy is usually a good thing, that's gluten. Sticky on the other hand can be lack of gluten and a much bigger issue.

/nhuman: Orange specks on starter I opened my whole wheat starter jar today(born on 16, April 2020) and saw a Stepping stone to success... White fungus at the top of the starter and white and green fungus in the rest of the jar where starter stuck to the walls. The backstory is that I took it along with me a to different place day before yesterday(to feed it, of course) and while coming back home, the lid was placed tightly. I took out what appeared to be the "clean" starter and got rid of everything else. Now, I notice these orange speckles on the starter. I will have already fed the starter by the time I get a reply, but later on, what should I do and what should I look out for? I hope I won't have to throw this one away because of this, although I do have some starter in the freezer. But I'm hoping I won't have to use that right now. /nai: Orangish specks in a ww Orangish specks in a ww starter isn't unusual, it's usually just the bran showing. The thing to look for is growth. If it's growing and spreading - not good. On another note - "stepping stone to success" "white and green fungus" - did I miss the joke! The mold you're seeing isn't normally associated with success, unless you're making penicillin. And if there is other mold growing in there, the orange may not be just from the flour. A general rule I follow with mold is - red (or reddish including orange pink) leave it for dead. Green, white, black, gray - with some tlc it can be saved . I mentioned to another poster just a few days ago with the same issue to do this - scoop some starter with the spots and put in another jar and watch it for a day or 2. If it grows and spreads, toss it, if not, nothing to worry about. Of course to be 100%, use the back up or start another one - it's easy enough. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Starter feeding ratios I've come to the conclusion that there seem to be two schools of thought with regard to SD starter feeding ratios. I'm talking about maintenance refreshes here, not levain builds.Assuming a 100% hydration starter for simplicity, one school seems to suggest a 1/1/1 or 1/2/2 ratio (starter/flour/water) and this would be good for twice or even once a day feeding. Proponents of this are eg Jeffrey Hamelman, Tom Cucuzza (the Sourdough Journey).The other school prefers much bigger ratios and usually twice a day, eg 1/5/5 Maurizio Leo (the Perfect Loaf) and many others.The above are examples of ambient regimes, but I think the same basic principles apply with refrigerated starter storage.I used to be in the second camp, but now I'm not so sure. I think my starter has not been acidic enough and I'm wondering if some residence time at a lower pH is a good thing for a starter, which is what you will get in the first camp.What are your thoughts?Lance /nai: 1:10:10 There's also the 1:10:10 feeding as described by Ginsberg in The Rye Baker for his rye sour culture.I've been using that ratio and usually feed it once at 1:10:10 before I start a rye recipe, as he recommends. Otherwise, it lives in the fridge. It has had some neglect (six weeks w/o food once) but it bounced back after feeding. It also seems pretty acidic, but I haven't measured the TTA.

/nhuman: Sick (ropey) Starters? Hi all! First time posting, but just wanted to say a quick thankyou to everyone for existing; this forum has been my “bible” for the 6 months I’ve been obsessively making bread. You’re all legends!Also, sorry in advance for the length of this post - I will try to cover as many bases as possible with a lack of photographic evidence. None of the photos of my starters do justice to the slimy stringy mess I’m faced with.To the matter in question; I had what I believe to be a rope outbreak, which started last week in my fridge on my most recent/last sourdough loaf. There was no denying what this was - “suddenly” tacky crust, dull/rancid flavour, and the early stages of those telltale sticky “threads” that resemble snail slime. I checked in with my Mum, who also had a loaf from the same batch, and it was starting to show signs as well.So we both “acid washed” our kitchens (with entire 2L jugs of vinegar) to hopefully nuke the outbreak and spread to other foodstuffs - a pot of cream in my fridge had been “cultured” with a lovely/disgusting white foam, barely a day after I opened it. It was clear that whatever this bacteria was/is (Bacillus, I believe), it had a real affinity for lactic and starchy foods, and I wasn’t too keen on pitching my entire stock of cheese, along with my entire stock of bread I’d thrown in the bin (carbs and dairy are my lifeblood). I even went so far as to smear vinegar on the lids all of my flour containers, to hopefully create a barrier against any further spread.Beyond this outbreak mitigation, I’ve been at a loss as to the actual source of the bug; a wedge of Pecorino, a lemon that went green and fuzzy very suddenly, and a Hokkaido Milk Loaf/experiment made with egg, are all possible suspects. Needless to say, all are now safely residing in my local council tip.Now, I have two, up-until-now very healthy and veracious starters, each around 4 months old. One is 90:10 AP:WW, the other is 60:30:10 Spelt:WW:Rye. Both are maintained at 100% hydration with filtered H2O, and fed 1:3 on the same schedule every 12 hours. The only reason I keep both running is purely for flavour and sentiment at this stage, since they’re equally reliable in performance. But I’ve found using both in equal quantities to be the golden blend for any loaf/pizza I make.However, not long after the fridge outbreak, my starters started (lol) to show signs of ropiness as well. I have done as much research as possible into rope spoilage in starters, only to find a bunch of articles saying that wild yeast cultures were, in fact, an effective method of control. Reading around here about sick starters, I dropped the hydration if both back to 66% and started “spiking” the water with 5% apple cider vinegar for the past 4 days, along with changing to a clean jar every feed (I normally only clean their jars once a week at most) while maintaining the ratio and schedule......to no avail!Both are still riddled with stringy, slimy yuck, despite finally starting to smell a little less like rancid pork (noticed that on the first infected loaf). Although they’re as strong as ever, I’m exhausted by my germaphobic daily vinegar-cleansing procedure, and the prospect that I’m extending the lifespan of this cunning Bacillus by maintaining the lifespan of these starters - the irony of this situation in the midst of COVID is not lost on me.So to finally pose the question; should I keep my babies alive, or send them to the sewer/start a starter over again? Also, tips for wiping out any remaining Bacillus would be greatly appreciated!Also, re details about the flours; the whites are a blend of Caputo AP(Blue) and Cuoco(Red), the other Whole Grain flours are organic and/or stoneground from either Kialla Milling or “Chef’s Choice” (Australian brands). /nai: Scary stuff! I have never heard of rope before - it sounds horrendous! I looked it up and found this thread: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/43626/possible-rope-bread-please-help You may have already seen it, but if you haven't it might help you to wipe out any lurking bacteria. I can't really offer any help with your starters - I'm pretty new to sourdough in general and have no experience with rope, so a more experienced member will be able to give you more solid advice. Really hoping that you'll be able to save your babies, but it looks like rope is pretty difficult to get rid of once it sets in. Good luck with the rope-busting!

/nhuman: Newbie wanting to improve Hello everyone! This is my first proper post – yay!Like a lot of new members, I decided that lockdown was the perfect opportunity to finally get into making sourdough and now I can’t believe I put it off for so long! After my first few attempts proved disastrous (I had to literally chisel my first loaf out of my ceramic casserole dish) I decided that winging it obviously wasn’t working so I started looking for bread baking books. Ken Forkish’s Flour Water Salt Yeast was the first one I could find and the breads that I’ve made using his recipes are so much better than my first few – not only are they actually edible, they taste great too! But, as always, I want to improve! I’ve outlined my latest bake below and would really appreciate any comments. I find the dough to be pretty sticky and difficult to work with, but I don't know if I'm not developing the gluten enough, overproofing it or just haven't gotten the hang of working with wetter doughs yet (or a million other problems that I don't know of yet!). The bread usually springs up a bit in the oven, but it also spreads out quite a bit as well. And although the crust is nice and crackly when it comes out of the oven it very quickly turns leathery and tough. I know this is a lot but I'm really keen to learn and make better breads! Adapted from the Overnight Country Brown recipe302g cake flour (which I think is our equivalent of all-purpose flour)138g whole wheat flour 342g water Mix by hand and then autolyse for 30 minutes. Then mix in 11g salt and 108g of 80% hydration starter by hand. I did stretch and folds every 30 minutes for two hours (so four sets of stretch and folds in total). I then covered the dough and let it bulk ferment at room temperature (about 18 C) for 12 hours overnight. The next morning, I shaped the dough and let it proof at room temperature for 3 hours and then baked it (preheated oven to 220 C; turned down to 200 C and baked covered for 25 minutes; turned down to 180 C and baked uncovered for 20 minutes). And here are some photos of the finished loaf! My shaping, slashing and photography skills are not great but hopefully they will improve as I learn more! Photo 1.jpg                 Photo 3.jpg                            The colour of the crust didn't come out well in this photo - it was a nice orangey-brown. Photo 2.jpg                 I forgot to take a photo of the crumb, but it was very similar to this (even more poorly shaped) loaf from the previous day. I have no idea if this crumb is 'good' or 'bad'. All I know is that it's good to eat!Any comments would be greatly appreciated! (And sorry about the funky formatting - I guess that's another thing that I need to get the hang of!)Keilidh /nai: Hmmm, well, first, regardless Hmmm, well, first, regardless of what it looks like - if you like it - it's gotta be good. I don't know where you are - but in the us ap flour is usually 10% protein whereas a cake flour can be around 5%, that's a big difference. With lower protein, you'd have to shorten timings a little as gluten would be fragile and more prone to breaking down sooner rather than later. In essence you may be over proofing/fermenting just a touch for the flour used. If this is the case shortening the timings may give a little more oven spring. Try it, see what happens, and most of all Enjoy!I forgot - if high hydration is causing grief - lower it - you don't need a lot of water to make good bread (lower protein flour requires less water anyway).

/nhuman: Need Help with Oven Spring! Hello,I have been baking sourdough for about 5 months now. Lately I am having a lot of trouble with oven spring.I use Tartine method, 75-80% hydration. 45 min autolyse (with starter, Chad's way), then 2.5 hours of turns every 30 min or so, then another 30-60 min rest before pre-shaping. 20 min bench rest, then shape, then chill for 12 hours in fridge.I am happy with the crumb and the bread is fine to eat. Seems a bit more sour than it should be after only 12 hours chill but that's ok. My starter is good. But I am just not getting the height I would like to see and that I used to get in the past.Not sure if it's the warm weather?? I did adjust my bulk ferment down from what I was doing in the spring. Am I under-fermenting now? I had some major flops that were left out too long in the heat and have dialed things back. Did I go back too far?? Or is it my shaping? When I do the 80% hydration the dough is sometimes fairly sticky and hard to pull around on the board to get tension. Not sure if this is normal or not?I am attaching some pics.Thanks for any help or advice!!! IMG_6038 (1).jpg IMG_6040 (1).jpg /nai: I think the angle of first I think the angle of first pic makes the bread look taller than it is. In the middle of interior it measures 3.5". I use a 9" round banetton and this is loaf made with 500g flour.

/nhuman: Unbaked spots in breadloaves Hi! I'm new to sourdough baking and i have just started baking sourdough sandwich breads and babka. However i noticed that i keep getting unbaked spots and lines especially around the bottom part of the bread. Can someone tell me what went wrong?:( The recipe generally calls for baking it on 190° for 30-45 mins /nai: Could be one or several things. Got any more detail and perhaps a picture?  Sounds like loaves could bake longer.  Oven set up?  Crumb picture?

/nhuman: Starter and hydration Hi all. This is my first post on this forum but I've been baking bread for awhile - especially given that I'm working from home a lot more. I have a starter that is very robust and I keep it at 100% hydration. My question is how do I incorporate the water in the starter as part of the hydration ratio? I generally aim for 70% hydration by weight and I use 12% starter. I use the over night fermentation method but I continue to end up with an unruly dough that wants to resist shaping for proofing.  Any thoughts? ThanksMark /nai: See if this helps Let's say your final dough mix has 1000g flour.1000g flour in dough120g starter (your 12% - 60g water/60g flour)Total Flour = 106070% hydration = 742g waterWater to add to dough mix = 742 - 60 (water in starter) = 682gThat's how I do it, anyway. :)  .....and don't forget the salt! :)Rich

/nhuman: Leaven versus "Young Discard" For those of you who always (or often) make leaven for your sourdoughs....When I first started baking sourdough using Tartine method, I would make the leaven, doing it overnight. I was always left with a lot of extra and while Chad suggests using that to start a new starter, I didn't feel that was necessary. Recently I started using discard at the 4-6 hour point after feeding my starter. If I'm only making one loaf, I just pour out 100 g from my starter (fed at 1:2:2) and use it. If I am making two loaves, I do more like a 1:3:3 feed to generate more discard. The discard I use is really active, nice and bubbly/thick. Is there any reason NOT to do this and make a leaven instead? It's basically the same thing, right?Just curious what others think and if anyone else using what I call "young discard" instead of making a "young leaven"? /nai: That is what I often do as I That is what I often do as I mostly bake just one 400 - 500g (flour weight) loaf at a time, one every 3-4 days.  If I keep ~20g starter in the fridge, it will provide enough leavening when fed at around 1:2:2 and left in a warm place for 5-6 hours.  I keep my starter all wholemeal rye flour at 100% hydration and I like the results so this is my basic approach.If I wanted to make a pure white loaf, I would have to split off a separate  lot and feed that up.  And of course, some recipes call for a higher percentage of pre-fermented flour, fermented in a particular way (hydration level, temperature and time of fermentation) so for that you would need to have at least one stage in between "the pot from the fridge" and the final dough, or more for a fancy multi-stage, multi day recipe.TIM

/nhuman: Panettone and Pasta Madre Hi. I’m sure like a lot of people on here they picked up cooking and baking during lockdown. So I was wondering if you have anyone has advice on making panettone and handling their pasta madre? Im trying to aim for what a panettone is supposed to be and mine keep coming out almost like one but they’re still too cakey and it’s a fruit cake nonetheless. I did Andrea Tortoras recipe and just did Massaris recipe and did giorillis formula for the second time now. The dough always seems to be coming out great but still not where I want it to be. I know it has to do with hydration and the kneading and everything and it all science but mostly the pasta madre. Someone told me it probably had to do with my pasta madre or my ingredients like the flour I was using so I switched To molino manitoba flour and made sure my PM wasnt sticky or overly sour and wanted it to smell almost like apples and to where it tripled in 3-4 hours. But still am not getting the result I want. If anyone has any advice on how they treat their PM since right now I’m just experimenting with different temps and lengths of time between feedings and right now I’m going to leave it in the fridge dry for 2 weeks because I can tell it’s exhausted. So any and all advice and tips are welcome. Lol thank you. The pictures and video are from my last panettone and my pasta madre.  1DEABE69-5211-4477-AB94-2167648448D8.jpeg 579FFACD-DDEA-4B33-9CE9-3F27EDFE3391.jpeg A7522C40-3BE6-48F6-9A96-CE046E86878A.jpeg E389184F-6775-440D-92BE-293D19A53130.jpeg /nai: Acidity Your last panettone looks like its suffering from too much acid. The first one you made though looks great! Difficult to advise a course of action but I'm certain about the diagnosis. Your madre must have been too strong. Just keep at it...Michael

/nhuman: Dough losing strength Hi allI am trying to understand what is going on with a new sourdough recipe that I have been trying.I have been making sourdough on and off for several years, but weekly for the past few months (The Covid effect).  I always make to a simple, no fuss, 70% hydration recipe that I formulated over time from parts I liked from the ratios and procedures of other bakers; works for me every time, with whatever bread flours are available.So after that little background, here is my question.I am not really one for fancy scoring, but it is nice to do once in a while – special occasions, gifts etc.  While perusing YouTube I happened upon the Channel ‘Bread Journey’, where the channel owner ‘Anna’ demonstrates some intricate scoring on dough that is near 90% hydration, which seems to hold its shape during the scoring as well as my 70% does.  This inspired my to have a go with her high hydration recipe, mainly as a learning experience.  I have tried it now twice and both times the same thing happened and this is what I am trying to understand.The processes she performs is goes along the lines of a three hour autolyse, followed by the incorporation of the starter with an enthusiastic  Rubaud knead, a little later add the salt and another short knead then finally a small amount of hydrated bran (about 10%) and another short knead.  The added bran has at this point been soaking for several hours in about twice its weight of water, initially added at boiling point.  The process continues with five sets of coil folds every thirty minutes before the dough is finally ready for the overnight refrigeration ferment.  There is a full video on her very instructional channel, entitled, “Best Sourdough Bread Recipe for Scoring”.I have tried this twice and both times the same thing happens: at the point that I add the salt my dough is starting to resemble soft plastic; it is very firm and glossy.  15/20 mins later it is very much like firm plastic and it is hard to incorporate the bran.  The first coil fold doesn’t really work as the dough is so solid (like a plastic ball).  From this point on the dough seems to progressively weaken, to the point where after 60 minutes, or so, coil folding has become almost impossible for the very opposite reason of having lost all its strength and being so soft and sticky that it is doesn’t want to leave the bowl.  It’s all downhill from there on.I suspect that this is an issue with flour I am using (“Very Strong, 14.9g protein” too strong?), or the bran somehow reacting with the dough, but would like the opinion of others with more experience so as I may uncover a starter issue, timing or temperature problem, or something subtle that I need to be aware of.As I said at the start, I have no problem making bread I am happy with, so this really is an academic/learning experience for me, nonetheless if there are simple changes I can make it is something that I would like to have a success with.Thank you in advance for any advice. /nai: Have seen before - and it was Have seen before - and it was a starter issue or bad flour. Detailed info on the starter would be helpful - age, storage temps, feed ratios, timings - anything ya got would be a help. Also, any flour change recently?

/nhuman: Pan de coco https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/05/magazine/pan-de-coco-recipe-bryan-ford.htmlFascinating article. It's behind a NYT paywall, but perhaps you subscribe or have a few free articles left this month. /nai: Thanks for this!  I have fond Thanks for this!  I have fond memories of Pan do Coco in Guatemala.  Here is a link to his book: https://www.artisanbryan.com/cookbook

/nhuman: Dough not passing the float test after bulk fermentation Help Please!!!! I’m following Bonnie Ohara’s book “Bread Baking for Beginners” ... she states that one can know when your sourdough has completely rise during the bulk fermentation by performing a float test (not talking about my sourdough starter but the actual dough) ... in her recipe, she lets it rise 5 hours but says it might require more time in colder temperatures. I’m at a colder temperature but yesterday I let it rise for 8 hours and it still wasn’t floating! Then I started shaping it and I could tell it was over fermented. I believe my sourdough starter is healthy, I think it is due to leaving it too long to rise .... should I not worry about the float test? /nai: Seriously? You are doing a float test with the dough after bulk? I have never heard of that. How does that even work? A huge bowl and you drop the dough in the water?I don't believe in the float test for starters let alone for dough.

/nhuman: Converting a liquid starter to biga prior to baking vs Lievito madre Hello!Over the holidays I took a stab at making a panettone (Melissa Weller's recipe from 'A Good Bake'). This recipe has you convert a liquid starter with a 100% hydration to a biga (50% Hydration, 1:1 ratio liquid starter to Flour) and letting it ferment for ~6 hours before proceeding to make the first dough. She also has you add 3g of instant yeast to the second dough to speed things along.I've seen this method of converting liquid starters to a biga in a few different recipes (Sullivan Street Bakery, A Good Bake, and Bread Baker's Apprentice)The panettone turned out great! But I would love to make a pure sourdough leavened panettone. The more I read about it, the more it seems like i need to have a Lievito Madre.What is the difference between converting my liquid starter to a biga the way I did for the panettone I made over the holidays vs creating a Lievito Madre? Is it really necessary to create and maintain Lievito Madre for Panettone? /nai: A Lievito Madre is a type of stiff starter which has a very specific maintenance to keep the targeted pH level and making it a strong leavener. A biga is just a low hydration version of a poolish. It is different to a LM. Both low hydration but very different maintenance and resulting outcomes. I think for an authentic panettone one should stick to LM.

/nhuman: A lava field of goodness Bloom on a 72% hydration SD looks like a Hawaiian lava field D72_2449.JPG   D72_2452.JPG Preferment (Starter 130g total)65g Water (100.0%)65g Bread Flour (100.0%)Dough500g Bread Flour (79.4%)100g WW Flour (15.9%)30g Whole Grain Rye Flour (4.8%)435g Water (69.0%)13g salt (2.1%)TotalsDough weight: 1208gPre-fermented flour: 65g (9.4%)Flour: 695gFluid: 500gSalt: 13g (1.9%)Dough hydration: 71.9% /nai: Nice Bake! Looks lovely, and I was going to bookmark this recipe, but then noticed I could not find any reference to yeast or starter ;-)

/nhuman: My Ischia sourdough starter is smelling FOUL!!!!! sourdo.com starter So I bought two italian sourdough cultures from https://sourdo.com/.  I have one Ischia and one Camaldoli.   I am new at this so this is my first time doing any sourdoughs period.  I follow directions!!!!  This company say's QUOTE "wants you to start the first 24 hours at 90 degrees in a proofer so it promotes the growth of lactobacilli and thus increases acid production.  High Acidity helps prevent contamination of the active culture by nonsourdough organisms present in most flour, most of which do not thrive in an acid environment. I followed the above direction, and did 90 degrees for 24 hours.  I was using King Arthur all purpose flour as well.  I noticed after 24 hours in a proofer there was some kind of activity, bubbles and such.  I opened the jar to split the starter into TWO jars.  the smell that came out of the jar smelled like VOMIT.  I have no other description, it was horrible, nothing like yeast or anything.  I added my 1 cup of flour and 3/4 cup of warm water and stirred and put the lid back on the mason Quart size jar and left it at room temp. (72 degrees)  for the next 12.  This morning I did not see activity and did not see bubbles.  I did see the nasty liquid sitting on the top the hooch I believe.  I opened both and they both smelled horrible like vomit again.  I poured off the liquid, mixed it, discarded all but 1" of the starter and added 1 cup of flour and 34 cup of warm water and mixed both jars.  I have a rubber band marking the top level.  It has been 3 hours since I fed it and I do not see bubbles, not activity.  just some hooch forming at the top of the starter. I emailed the sourdo company where I bought this from and the lady basically told me it might be the King Arthur flour and to switch to Gold Medal flour instead.  I thought that was weird.  AP Flour is not all that different so why would Gold Medal be any different.  Also so sold me to put the lid on snug, that also is different than the instructions they provided.  I asked for a replacement of the ischia starter and she basically said no she would just refund me.   ANY HELP PLEASE!!!  I really want to try this Ischia starter as I want to make amazing Neapolitan Pizza.  I thought this starter would give me the best chance.  Looks like now I have two VERY SMELLY starters that are not doing much.  Granted I am only 39 hours as I type this but still that smell is just awful.   Any help for this newbie would be greatly appreciated. /nai: Here's my description of the Here's my description of the smell - think parmesan cheese mixed with old well used gym socks found in the bottom of a closet - and they've been there for years. But that's how things usually start. Keep following the directions and see what happens - and be patient.

/nhuman: (Another) Newbie trying to grow a sourdough starter - looking for feedback Hi everyone!I'm joining the growing ranks of people during quarantine who have become interested in growing a sourdough starter. I've read through a few discussions on this site that have been very helpful, but I'm looking for some guidance to see if I'm on the right track. I've learned that patience is the name of the game, but looking to get some opinions to make sure I'm not missing anything.General things that have stayed the same during this experiment: water has been boiled/cooled before using and room temp is between 75-80. Below is the summary of what I've done so far (get prepared for a loooong summary):Day 1 (started with KA starter guide)8:00am // 113g wheat flour + 113g waterDay 2Starter had grown significantly in 24 hours, almost 2x in size. Did a feeding at 8:00am in a fresh jar with 113g starter + 113g (50/50 wheat + AP blend) + 113g water.Throughout the day, had to stir the starter 3x due to significant expansion (I suspect from CO2/bacteria); stirred at 1:50pm, 4:50pm, and 8:30pm. Starter calmed down after the last stir.Day 3Starter had a layer of hooch and smelled awful when I checked in the AM. Did a feeding at 8:00am into a new jar of 60g starter + 60g (wheat/AP mix) + 60g water.Second feeding at 7pm of 60g starter + 60g (wheat/AP mix) + 60g water. Starter had a layer of hooch and small bubbles on the surface prior to this feeding, texture seemed to get more liquidity as the day went on. Awful smell significantly lessened today.Day 4Based on what I read on this site, I didn't want to discard/overfeed while the yeast is developing. So I stirred and fed 1 tbsp flour mix at 7:20am and 6:40pm directly into the jar since the starter was liquidity (but had small bubbles). Smell seemed neutral - neither overly flour-y or sour.Day 5Stirred without feeding at 7:10am and 3:10pm. Starter had less hooch and seemed less liquidity and had lots of small bubbles on the surface. Smell also seemed more sour/tangy.Fed 1 tbsp of flour mixture at 7:20pm to give it some food for the evening. Overall texture seems thicker and had less hooch.Day 6Today is day 6, and there was minimal change overnight. If anything, the number of bubbles seemed to decrease today. Texture seemed the same (not overly thick, but not runny) but there were less bubbles on the surface (see below). Stirred at 7:20am, no feeding. **************In summary, am I on the right track to keep stirring and waiting for more significant activity? After reading multiple forums on this site, I'm cautious of not discarding/feeding when the yeast hasn't fully developed. But I'm not sure if my starter actually does require more food, or if I'm still in the waiting period (UGH).Any feedback or guidance would be appreciated.Thanks! /nai: Yup, you're in the right Yup, you're in the right track, everything normal so far. From the awful smell a couple days in to the decrease in activity at day 5 or 6. Next week you'll be trying it out in a loaf (it's usually within a week after the drop in activity that it's ready to try).And - I'm glad to see your stirring it up. This is something I recommend doing to make sure a starter has the proper feed ratio to last however long you would like it to last till next feeding. I explained it in a post a short while back (couple weeks maybe) and I'll give a quick run down of the principle here.A starter rises when it eats - and it won't when it can't. Too much food will dilute the starter over time making it weaker. Not enough food over time will cause a die off of our little friends (which throws the starter out of balance and make it too acidic - been a lot of this going around lately).If a starter risers and falls, then you stir it (the bugs and fungus can't move around in their own - they spread outward via multiplication), and it rises again - it's got enough food to keep going.If it doesn't rise again - there's no, or not enough food. Whatever the feed ratio was wasn't enough to last from the previous feed - and things then get ugly - quick. That's the basic premise behind stirring - and how you can use it to ensure a healthy vibrant starter. I am also happy to see no discard as I don't believe in it - at any time in the life of a starter - unless it's gotten out of balance and that's another story. By stirring to find the proper feed ratio, you shouldn't have to toss anything, and by building your starter up to the amount you need for a bake, there wouldn't be any reason to throw anything away (I hate waste - I absolutely despise wasting food of any kind).I didn't want this to be long - but here we are - you're looking good - Enjoy!

/nhuman: Sloth-like starter I started my current starter, Eleanor, in January. She has always been fed on a1:2:2 ratio for maintenance.  My flour mixture is 60% AP, 30% whole wheat, and 10% rye.   She lives in the kitchen, and the temperature in there is always between 68-72. Currently it's about 76 in there. She will always double, but the issue is that it takes 5-8 hours to do so.  I have never been able to get her to triple.    I have tried spiking occasional feedings with some extra rye, but it hasn't seemed to make any difference. I have had relative success making bread with her, but again, it takes forever for the dough to rise enough to bake. Should I be concerned?  Do something different in feeding her?  Do I just accept that this is her personality and just love her the way she is?Thank you for any insights and advice! /nai: Maybe try different water. Bottled spring water, with naturally occurring minerals, works best for me.

/nhuman: Starter - how to change the hydration level? Dear fellow bakers, I started out with a KA starter.  I am feeding 1 cup of starter 4 oz of water and 4 oz of flour once a day.  The starter is very active.  By dividing the 4 oz of flour into the 4 oz of water, I conclude that my starter is at 100%.  If this is not the case, please enlighten me, and then further enlighten me how to convert my current starter to various hydration levels given in bread recipes.  For one thing, I'm stuck on how much starter to use in the equation. The KA customer service rep said it didn't make any difference, but that doesn't seem logical to me. I am SO looking forward to your replies, Thanks! Diana /nai: yes, 100% hydrated Yes, your starter is at 100% hydration.  To convert your starter to different hydration, just create a separate starter at the hydration and amount you need. For example, if you need a 60% hydration starter and your recipe requires 340g of starter, then start with 200g of flour, 120g of water, and mix in about  20g of your liquid starter. Continue to feed your new starter at the new hydration ratio at least twice, and you're all set.  You can also use the formula  Fg + (SH% * Fg) = SRg Where Fg = flour weight in grams SH% is starter hydration percentage (such as .60 for 60% starter hydration) SRg = starter amount required by recipe in grams to determine the exact flour and water amounts required for a given starter amount.  There are a few calculators that people have posted that can do the math for you, if you like.  Does that help?

/nhuman: Dough "spills" out too much - Not just sourdough Hi All,I'm having an issue with pretty much all my baked goods, but I'm posting here as it becomes more difficult to handle when I now got into sourdough baking.Anytime I follow baking recipes online, for anything, any website, etc. my batter / dough / bread will be "looser" than in the video or more moist. Usually, this is not much of an issue, it still works out well.However, I recently started getting into sourdough. Now I have a very immature starter (6 days) but thought I'd give it a go anyway, so I can see how the taste changes as my starter grows older.I followed the basic recipe from Joshua Weissman:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eod5cUxAHRM&t=240sIt worked very well, even my levain passed the float test at the 6 hour mark which I was surprised at for such an immature starter. However, when it came to shaping the loaves I encountered the aforementioned problem.I pre-shaped the loaves like he did, and let them bench rest for 30 minutes like he does. After thirty minutes, his dough stayed "intact" in a nice boule. My dough became a fluid pancake, see attached photo.For context, I live in the UK, so not sure if it's due to humidity (according to a weather website it was at 80% when I was shaping it)?I did a quick calculation of his dough and it seems to be a 72% hydration bread, which is not all that much is it? Usually I read sourdoughs have 80-90%, so 72% should be quite firm and not so liquidy?I am using Dove's Organic Flour: https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/products/organic-flour?view=all and tap water which here in the UK is usually pretty good.Any idea / suggestion what could be causing all this "fluidity" in my baking? It doesn't matter what recipe, even when I follow an american recipe and go by volume and not by weight, I still have a very fluid dough :/Tips / ideas of how to have a more plyable dough rather than a wet one? :)Thank you guys in advance! /nai: All baked stuff? Even a All baked stuff? Even a commercial yeast bread? You are going by weight - not volume? Could be as simple as that.

/nhuman: Advice needed- close crumb on top of loaves Hello! I was hoping to get some advice on my loaves. I think that my loaves turned out pretty well except for at the top, where the crumb is very dense. Can anyone help me with this problem? Could this be due to overshaping?       08E9F0ED-7E84-4102-BF7A-46D63F04AF94.jpeg /nai: It looks like They hit the top of your dutch oven. See how the top is flat? Make your loaves a tad smaller so they have enough room to spring.

/nhuman: Maintaining Sourdough Activity Hi All,I keep a 9:1 Unbleached organic white baking flour (13%) and organic Rye flour starter (Sybil).  When active I get a nice 3 X rise.To maintain its activity i find I need to feed it 3 times a day and that a feeding ratio of 1:2:2 supports this.  I refresh every 8 hours (or thereabouts) and for it to be ready for a refresh after 8 hours i keep it at roughly 22 - 25 degrees Celsius.I've experimented with changing the ratios and temperatures to achieve a longer period so that I can get it to a point where it only need to feed it twice a day.  I find though, that it looses some of its strength when I mess around with the ratios / schedules / temperatures.  I find that after about 2 days it will not be quite as active and it will need 3 x daily feeding for a day or two before it's back to its ferocious self.Any tips from the brains trust on what would work here?  e.g. Are there some variables i shouldn't change (i.e. temperature)?  Which variables have the least impact on starter activity?Feedback very much welcomed.Thank you.I've attached some pictures of bread made this week with a strong Sybil, and Sybil in her ferocious form. /nai: Try taking 10 grams off of Try taking 10 grams off of your original starter and feed it 30 grams of water and 50 grams of white flour only. You’ll have to knead this a little.  Keep your original as is.

/nhuman: Can you fix an under-fermented dough during the proof? Baking off a batch of 9 loaves today. I was nervous that my ferment was under on the loaves, but had hoped it was just my imagination. Sure enough, I baked off a test loaf and it is way under-fermented. Flat, chewy, and lacking flavor (if it was over-proofed or over-fermened, I would have sour notes... this bread just has no flavor). So here's my question-- can I fix my additional loaves with just a long warm proof? Or do I need to let them re-ferment, then re-shape & proof? For the record-- my dough is a low-innoculation (10%... 40 grams of young levain for 400 g of flour). They warm-bulked with the doughs at around 76 degrees for 4 hours, before retarding to the fridge for an overnight bulk. /nai: Since the same things happen Since the same things happen during both, just proof till it's ready (you'll have to watch it). Reshaping may be a good idea, just to move the food around a little and even the crumb up a tad (shouldn't notice much difference anyway).

/nhuman: Starter Feedings My starter (Sourdough starter from San Francisco that is supposedly 150 years old, so they say) has been a bit sluggish over the last few months. I'm still getting a nice crumb, but the starter is just not that active when I feed it- getting about maybe 20-30% growth at the peak. Typically, I feed it 2x a day and had been following a 1:4:5 feeding, but have been recently trying a 1:2:2 on the first day from the fridge, and then 1:3:3 (50:50 wheat and white) for 3-4 days leading up to my levain. I know starter feedings are very subjective, but does anyone have a rule of thumb on how to get this starter a bit more active? Should I be introducing more wheat? Adjusting the ratio? (I just fed the starter this AM, but can share a pic later today after it begins rising) /nai: I'm gonna have to say too I'm gonna have to say too much feeding - way too much. A good start would be about 122 (sfw) - and once a day. Then keep an eye on it and adjust from there (it's important to note how it does over time so you can adjust feeding when things change - and they will). Too much food will dilute the starter and make it weak - what you can do now is stop feeding and stir 2x a day. Keep doing this until it slows down (less rise and/or longer to rise) then start feeding again. This will allow the bugs to increase in relation to the amount of food available, and that's what we want in a strong starter.Also thicken it up by reducing water for subsequent feeds. I would add a little flour now to thicken it up a bit. In a few days things should get back to normal (or abnormal as I like to say). Enjoy!

/nhuman: a question about baker's percentages if I bake a loaf of bread with 1000 grams of flour and I add 500g of starter at 50% hydration it means that the total flour is 1333gand I add 30g of salt am I using 2% salt or 3%?When calculating the amount of salt you need for the bread do you include the flour weight of the starter and then take 2% of that?what I am asking is do you take 2% of 1000g of flour or from the 1333g? /nai: Yes, you take the total flour Yes, you take the total flour that goes into the bread including the starter. So 2% of 1333 grams, so 27g salt.

/nhuman: Cocoa powder and other unconventional starter foods? https://www.sourdough.co.uk/chocolate-starter-microbial-analysis/I stumbled across this page a while back that explained how creating a sourdough starter with cocoa powder would innoculate it with certain strains of lactobacilli that produce a milder, sweeter levain. I was intrigued and tried to do more research on cocoa powder starters but couldn't find anything other than that one website, not terribly surprising given how expensive I'd imagine a cocoa powder starter diet to be. Still, it got me wondering if there were another non-grain foods that one could feed a starter to give it certain taste or levaining properties and after some searching, I found a few other examples including potato flakes and nut flours (for gluten-free starters). I'm wondering if these foods would noticably change the flavor of the final loaf but only out of curiosity; I have no intention of testing it for myself lol. Anyone else heard of or tried out some unconventional starter foods and noted a difference in performance? /nai: Potato has been used for a long time to feed and grow yeast.  Cocoa powders are high in fats and rather low in carbs so I can imagine they may not be ideal.  Feeding yeast and bacteria will be the challenge....maybe. Vanilla is also fermented. Look into fermentation for other sources.  Vegetables, fruit, yeast waters, etc....  pickles, kimchi, sauerkraut, cider, wyoung wine, beer, tubers like tapioca or other starchy roots like cattail, sunflower.  Have fun!about the article...and following the sourdough club...I like this comment:"If you are trying to manage a starter in tropical heat then it is useful to know that the addition of cocoa slows this starter down."

/nhuman: Is my starter ok? I live in a tiny country in the Caribbean. We can't get unbleached flour here so I used regular bleached AP flour. Its been a day and I don't know if I should keep feeding it or if I should give it up. It says it is enriched but I don't know if it will work. /nai: Even with whole grain flour, Even with whole grain flour, the process may take at least 7-14 days to get something strong/useful.  With bleached AP, the process could be longer or may not even work. the issue is that there are likely no good bacteria or yeast in the flour itself and you'll rely on what is in the environment.  Whole grain will likely provide all those for you. If you could get some whole grain flour in there it will really help kick things off.also check out other sources of yeast/bacteria to build your starter like:https://www.food.com/recipe/nancy-silverton-s-grape-sourdough-starter-316306

/nhuman: Started a starter from a dehydrated starter and hardly any activity? :( Hi all!I recently received an established, dehydrated sourdough starter from an internet gift exchange. It came with the attached instructions on how to feed and restore it, and I followed it to a T.I am now on Day 3, and despite producing some hooch overnight during the first and second day, there is hardly any movement or bubbles or activity on the starter so I am beginning to worry.This is the flour I feed it with:https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/doves-farm-strong-wholemeal-flour--organic-15kgI have been using tap water, the first two days cold and today at 85F, but am thinking about switching to mineral water (we don't have filtered water here).Is it normal for a dehydrated starter to take so long to bounce back? The instructions says I can use it from tomorrow onwards but as there is no movement I find that difficult to believe?I use a rubberband to measure if it moves.Any help would be appreciated, thank you :) /nai: Be Patient HI There,Getting a starter started (or restarted) can be stressful because nothing happens and you end up thinking it's dead. Persevere with it.  Leave it 24 hours, and feed again after 24 hours. Repeat this, it may take a few more days.First time i did what you did i thought it had died and threw it away (at about day 5).  The second time, everything happened the same way but i persevered and by day 7 there were bubbles. Good luck.

/nhuman: Bubbles at surface when proving in banneton Hi all,Wondering if anyone can help but I'm getting large air bubbles at the surface (seam side) of my sourdough when proving at room temp before baking - these appear sometimes within minutes of sticking it in the banneton. I'm working off a tartine recipe but today had to be a bit more flexible due to other commitments. It goes as follows:450g strong white flour, 50g wholemeal and 350ml water to autolyse for approx 20mins  Add in 100g starter (approx 1:3:3, has doubled within 4 hours of feeding) and mix in, then add further 17g water with 10g salt.I mixed it all together and today knew I couldn't attend to it so for the first few hours so I kneaded in the bowl for like 8 minutes or so. The dough temp was 25.4°c at the start of bulk.I did a stretch and fold and some coil folds at 2, 4 and 6 hours bulk, with the dough temp remaining at the 25°c mark. It had risen by at least 30%, was bubbly on the surface and had clear bubbles on the sides and bottoms of the container. I turned it onto the counter to preshape and it was airy albeit a little sticky. After 20 mins rest I did another preshape as felt it wasnt as strong as a previous loaf I did yesterday.  After another 20 min rest I flipped it over and shaped into a boule, there was a good amount of tension and small air bubbles were coming to the surface (smooth side) of the boule. I flipped it over and put into the banneton and within 20 minutes perhaps sooner, larger air bubbles seemed to accumulate on the top (seam side) of the boule, which became progressively worse. After 40 mins or so I decided to turn it out onto baking paper and put it in a  dutch oven, i think had I not been quick with the transfer it would've become a total pancake.  I dont quite understand where I've gone wrong here. I did a sourdough yesterday with almost exactly the same recipe, though the temp of the dough was consistently at 27°c for the bulk and not 25°c like today, but the bulk today was about an hour longer and the end point felt compatible to yesterdays. I did retard yesterdays loaf (though my fridge was at 9°c so not great, and to be fair it did also have some bubbles but I guess being cold helped it keep its shape when turning out. It's annoying as I see on YouTube people turn out their doughs from the banneton and they have wonderful structure and hardly seem to deflate at all, and I wonder just what I'm doing so incorrectly. For further context yesterday I was able to attend to the dough a bit more, and did regular stretch and folds at half and hour intervals (but didnt do any kneading in the bowl prior to bulk). Any help would be appreciated. It's very frustrating. I feel for the first time I'm actually not under fermenting during bulk but who knows, perhaps I should just keep pushing with the bulk. It just seems that when I compare methods to ones i see on instagram, and in the tartine book, a decent bulk should take around 4 hours or so with the temperatures I'm at currently. My starter is fed usually twice a day at 6 and 6 and never goes in the fridge. I've made a fair amount of similar hydration non sourdough loaves so I dont think my shaping is so awful as to warrant what I think is a total lack of structure. Feels like the dough was overproved the minute I put it into the banneton. Help! /nai: Long Bulk 6 hours bulk at 25C is a long bulk.  Probably only need ~3 hours.  75% hydration with a long bulk, it's likely over proofed and your gluten is breaking down.  Do you have a photo of the crumb? an after that you still have another hour for preshape to final shape and final proof. Did you have strong window pane after last fold?Try doing your bulks 30 mins apart instead of 2 hours and after hour 3rd fold, give it an hour or until the dough expands an additional ~ 25- 30%.  optional cold retard for up to 16 hours.-James

/nhuman: Does how fast the starter rises affect taste/anything? I can put my starter on top of the fridge and it takes about 5-6 hours to rise to 3-4 times its initial size. I can also leave it on the table in my kitchen and it takes about 12-13 hours to rise that same size. Does the time it takes to rise affect anything? /nai: If all things are equal, it If all things are equal, it would. But in this case temps wouldn't be equal (usually warmer on top of a fridge) so the change would be expected.If we think of the dough as a big starter (yeah, that's all it really is), different rise times of the starter would be seen as different ferment/proof times. This can change taste, but would have more of an effect on gluten formation hence texture (the longer flour and water mix the more gluten you get). I like a bread with some texture so I shoot for long and slow.Now if your starter gets the same food and temp is the same, and you notice a change in rise (height or time), something had changed with the starter - could be good, could be bad - so it can be an indicator of trouble ahead (longer time or lower height) or a starter running on all cylinders (less time or higher rise). And of course this will be seen in the timings of the dough.Time to throw a loaf in the oven - Enjoy!

/nhuman: Factors and their influence - a question Hello baking friends, I've now made a handful of sourdough loaves and feel like I understand the process more fully, but now I want to get down to the nitty gritty. I've read lots of things and I still feel like I don't have a firm grasp on which factors affect what. For instance, I (think) I understand that the longer I let my starter sit between feeding, or if I use my starter/levain after it has begun to fall, I'm more likely to be building the acid content on the starter and will get a stronger "sour" flavor in my bread. I have not played with this a ton, but I prefer the sour flavor. I know many want to limit it.I'm curious how other factors have an effect the bread outcome. Will using my starter after it has begun to fall affect rise? Or just flavor? Will doing a cold over-night proof prior to baking affect rise or just flavor?How will cutting more deeply in my scoring affect the look of the bread - or is angle more important than depth?Which factors (or is it just the strength of starter and bulk fermentation?) contribute to rising and which to flavor?I'm also have some trouble? with shaping. I always seem to have one part of my boule that "puffs out" more than the rest. I know this is a lot! TIA :)Randi /nai: a place to start. To get more or less tang, and lactic vs acetic:https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62064/want-more-sourhttps://truesourdough.com/best-temperature-for-proofing-sourdough-full-guide-how-to/https://truesourdough.com/18-ways-to-make-sourdough-bread-more-or-less-sour/good luck, and bon appétit.

/nhuman: Help! Sourdough starter has lost it's power! Hi everyonePlease help me! I made a sourdough starter back in April and for the first 2 months it was working beautifully every time. The recipe I used was this: Leaven:60g starter (kept in the fridge, taken out the day before and 1/2 discarded + fed so it doubled in size)Fed with 100g warm water and 100g white bread flourLeft to double in size (usually took about 3 hours) 250g leaven300g warm watera very small sprinkle of quick yeast (I know I know, not kosher)450g white bread flour50g wholemeal bread flour 20g salt Mix together all ingredients except saltAutolyse for 1 hourAdd saltStretch and fold every hour for 4 hoursPop into banneton and rise in fridge for about 18h Next day, preheated oven to 250 celcius and baked for about 45 mins or until dark brown and the base sounded hollow.This was working totally fine and then all of a sudden for no apparent reason my loaves have stopped rising in the oven! Flat as a pancake.The dough rises beautifully between stretch and folds and in the fridge overnight but as soon as I turn them out and put them in the oven, zilch happens.What am I doing wrong?? /nai: Do you have any pictures of Do you have any pictures of the loaves and the crumb cut to post?  This would help us make more informed suggestions as to what’s going on. Have there been any changes in water, ambient temperature, flour, etc.?  lastly, have you noticed any changes in how your starter has been acting?  Any changes in its consistency?  Any changes in how my or how quickly it rises?

/nhuman: Building a levain Hi there,I'm starting to experiment with some different sourdough recipes and I am currently making Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough Bread recipe.  It calls for using 14g of starter to build a levain, then rest on counter for 12-16 hours.  I know that I want to use the levain at its peak, right?  So my question is, does my starter also need to be at its peak in order the build the levain?  It makes the timing of making the recipe quite difficult, and it will take 3 days to make this recipe.  I made it once already, but I cut the bulk short in order to not be up at 3 am.Thanks in advance. /nai: You don't have to, but most You don't have to, but most do as that is when there is a high concentration of our little friends.Hint - more starter will make things go faster. You'd have to experiment to find the right amount to make things fit your schedule (you can always make things fit any schedule by adjusting starter amount and temps). Enjoy!

/nhuman: Huge tunnel at the bottom of my sourdough! Hi, I've been reading a lot of posts on this forum and have really appreciated all the help and advise offered!I've been trying to make sourdough and had a peculiar problem on my second try. The dough developed a huge tunnel at the bottom.My recipe is below:All purpose 160 gmWhole wheat 40 gmLevain 40 gm (100% hydration and passes the float test)Salt 4 gmWater 133 gm My kitchen is at 95* F and so the dough tends to proof quite quickly. I autolyse for 45 mins, then did 3 stretch & folds in 15 mins intervals (longer intervals have led overproofing due to the heat), preshaping after 15 mins and shaping after 10 mins. I'm new to all of this so my shaping capabilities are limited.I proofed over night for about 15 hours in the fridge and put it straight to bake in a pre heated dutch oven at 450* F.Any clue where I've gone wrong? Really really appreciate help on this! /nai: If it looked bulk fermented If it looked bulk fermented properly pre shaping stage then could be a forming issue with the final shaping, when you rolled it did you use a lot of flour? if it doesnt stick well when rolling you're get layers and then big air pockets.

/nhuman: Should I adapt the percentage of starter used if I change its hydration? I usually use a 100% or 90% hydration starter when I bake my breads. Now I want to experiment with more liquid starters, with around 150% hydration. My basic bread formula is this:100% Flours70% Water20% Starter at 90% or 100% hydration2,4% SaltWhen using a more liquid starter, should I change the percentage of starter in my basic recipe, to obtain similar leavening results? /nai: If you feel like doing the If you feel like doing the math, sure. But in reality a little bit this way or a little bit that way won't make much of a difference. Can't see it from my house as they say in this neck of the woods!

/nhuman: How to make my starter stronger? I created a starter a few days ago as discussed in this thread. However, it takes more than 12 hours to double in volume and to show significant activity at 24.7° C ±0.2° C (I use a thermostatically controlled proofing box). The starter is not dead, but it's extremely sluggish.How could I strengthen it? In particular:Should I feed it more frequently than once every 24 hours?At what ratio of starter to flour and water?Should I discard any quantity of starter before I feed it for strengthening purposes?At what temperature should I keep it?My starter initially contained rye flour, but I gradually changed it to unbleached bread flour by successive feedings. /nai: With the changes there will With the changes there will be differences. You've had a few changes and would expect some differences. I'm sure it will make bread - sooner or later. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Rye vs White Starter Hello! First post here so looking forward to learning.  I decided this morning to use a rye starter instead of a white starter for a white sourdough. This is the first time I've used this particular combination. It seems to be going well so far. I guess what I'm interested in is the experience that other folk have had with this combination. I'm currently in the first prove stage and it would normally take about 3 to 3 & 1/2 hours. However, with the rye starter it seems to be moving along faster. It's not warmer than it was the other day (I'm Scottish so it's very rarely warm). Is this what other folk have experienced?ThanksCraig /nai: rye has more enzymes Welcome to TFL.Rye is known to have more enzymes than white/refined wheat flour.  It's popular for _starting_ a starter. The enzymes break down starch to sugar.  More sugar means more fermentation.The enzymes are mainly in the bran, so higher extraction and whole grain wheat also has this effect.I used to feed my starter home-milled whole grain flour, but switched back to white/refined flour because the whole grain made the starter too powerful, made fermentation too fast (for me) and required more frequent feeding.So yes, my experience corresponds to your observation.

/nhuman: Starter gone bad? Hello! I am still new to sourdough starters and I fed my starter for about 5 days and then placed it in the fridge. After like 3 days in the fridge, I saw some discoloration. (refer to picture for reference). Is this the orange tint that indicates it's bad or is it still fine? 116208099_595229581355224_4974319666752265316_n.jpg /nai: It should be fine, probably It should be fine, probably some dried spots or accumulated bran. If you wanna be sure, continue with a piece of unaffected starter.

/nhuman: I can't tell when higher hydration doughs (80%+) are finished proofing and I think I always overproof them. It's really frustrating. If I stick to around 75% hydration I'm fine. But if I go higher, around 80% or so, the dough doesn't seem to behave the same way. It never gets nice and shiny/glossy. It never gets nice and smooth. The finger poke test seems like it never works right for me so I don't go by that. The windowpane test seems okay but it usually ends up ripping, unlike when I use a mixer to mix the dough, and I can't tell if its due to overproofing or underproofing. I think it's overproofing but I cant figure out why. If I make the same recipe twice, one with everything the same but at 75% hydration and one with 80% hydration, the 75% one turns out fine but the 80% one not so much. Thanks for your help! /nai: I can imagine your flour just I can imagine your flour just can't handle 80%+ anymore. Every flour is different and can fully absorb only a certain amount of water.

/nhuman: Underproofed or Overproofed? Please help! This is my first post, so I'd really appreciate any feedback you could provide. I baked this loaf yesterday, and it turned out very flat (it didn't hold its structure when I turned it out of the banneton), and I've been having that problem a lot. I also had a new issue: the loaf formed a giant air bubble in the center, and the texture was pretty dense. I think my dough may have been too wet, but my guess is it was also over-proofed or under-proofed. Anyone have feedback on these issues? Do you think it would stand up taller if it was less wet?Thanks! /nai: Hey there, I think it would Hey there, I think it would be helpful if you shared your recipe, amount of starter and condition of starter, and ambient temps.  It generally looks under-proofed, but possibly due to less than active starter.

/nhuman: High Hydration Help Hi, I was wondering if anyone could give any insight into what went wrong in my latest loaf. Information:100g levain400g strong white flour (Shipton Mill)100g strong wholemeal10g salt77% hydration I autolysed flour with 360g water for four hours before adding levain and then salt after 20 minutes. Throughout bulk fermentation - which went for four hours - I gradually added a bit more water until it was at 77%. The flour seemed to accept this and absorbed it well. I did stretch and folds every half an hour. Preshaping and shaping were very easy with good tension on the surface. I've attached a picture - on the left is the 77% and on the right is another loaf with 70% hydration.I gave it a 12 hour cold proof in the fridge. The dough felt pretty sloppy in the morning and was sticking to the banneton (even though I used a lot of rice flour). When it came out of the banneton it just collapsed into a puddle and dribbled off the baking paper when I tried to put it in the oven. I don't have a tin with me so couldn't bake it.Does anyone know what might have gone on? It might be that I'm just not good enough at handling the dough, although I was pretty confident and it felt good. I made a 75% hydration loaf a few days ago which turned out really well, despite me having previously struggled with that percentage hydration. I'm also wondering if bulk fermentation went on a bit too long, although my kitchen felt quite cold (I don't have the exact temperature). I should say, I have no reason for pushing the hydration but I'm keen to learn and improve so I'm experimenting to see what me/my flour can handle and I'm just not sure exactly what went wrong here. Thank you! /nai: The wrinkles make it look The wrinkles make it look like it's over proofed/fermented. Basically your gluten went South on ya. The times given wouldn't suggest over, but if temps were high, or higher than usual, and starter is very active, it can happen.

/nhuman: Uneven proofing / dense crumb Hi Everyone,I am new to sourdough baking and looking for help to improve my bread. My loafs are delicious and crispy on the outside but I struggle with an uneven proofing (big bubbles) and crumb that is on the denser side (see picture attached). I have moved down to lower protein flours for the bread to fix the problem and I am now using King Arthur all-purpose flour (11.7% protein). I have an active starter (doubles in 4 hours) based on King Arthur Organic Whole Wheat (14% protein) that I feed at 100% hydration. For my bread I use 70% hydration. Steps followed:-Autolyse my flour and water for at least 1 hour-Add 20% starter, 2% salt and teaspoon of honey-Bulk ferment with frequent stretch and folds for 3-4 hours at 75 - 80 degrees-pre-shape and shaping at which I am getting better each love (starting to look like youtube bakers)-Final proofing usually overnight in the fridge or an extra 1 - 2 hours at room temperature depending on my schedule-Baking in dutch oven preheated at 550 degrees for an hour. First 15 minutes with lit on, remaining 25 minutes without lit. I bring down the temperature to 450 when I take the lid off. I have tried different flours (King Arthur bread flour, and mixes with 10% whole wheat), different hydration rates (moved from 80% to 70%) as well has varying my proofing times a bit but the problem seems to be consistent.Any tips on what I should try first to fix the problem?Thanks for your help.Manu /nai: Possibly over-proofed Hi Manu!  What is the ambient temp where you are?  If I had to guess, I think your dough might be over-proofed given the large 'mouse holes', flattened shape and light crust (although that could be due to under baking), since it sounds like you have shaping in hand.  However, I seem to only have a 50/50 agreement rate with the other posters on this site when opinions on over/under proofing are raised ;-)What does the dough look like before you decide to shape?  Collective wisdom (at least for the most part on this site) suggests no more than 30-50% rise during bulk ferment. The dough should also appear visibly lighter with large and small bubbles scattered throughout.  If you are waiting until the dough has doubled or tripled, you have likely gone too far.Another thought, you could take the hydration down a little, until you get a crumb you are happier with and can nail down your BF and final proof times.  Then you could take the hydration level back up a bit. How old is your starter and how many loaves had you made with it?  Maybe it isn't mature enough yet.  Are you using it when it is at its peak?Also, I have the best luck with recipes that use mostly strong bread flour with a smaller percentage of AP and/or WW or a touch of rye. Aside from this, it looks to me like you are not baking long enough at the higher heat with the lid on.  Most recipes I've used or seen call for a good 20-25 minutes with the lid on and another 20-25 with it off at the lower temp.When you say 'frequent stretch and folds', how many are you doing?  Perhaps you are over-working the dough? Sorry for all the questions, but so many factors could be coming into play.

/nhuman: Baking Sourdough from fridge Hello! Right now I have some dough proofing in the fridge. My plan is to bake them in the morning and I'm unsure if I should let the dough reach room temperature or if I can throw them in the oven directly from the fridge. /nai: You can bake directly from You can bake directly from the fridge.A advantage is that it it is very easy to score when it is cold.

/nhuman: Advice on converting a yeast recipe to a sourdough + yeast recipe? Hello all!I have a country milk loaf recipe that uses instant yeast. I tried converting it into a pure sourdough recipe (keeping the recipe's original hydration, just removing the instant yeast and adding about 20% in levain and compensating for the additional flour and water coming from the levain), but found that the sourdough changed the flavor and texture too much. The bread came out with a mild tang and a more open crumb. These aren't bad things in and of themselves, but I'd love to stay as true to the recipe's original flavor and texture as possible — milky, slightly sweet, and with a beautiful tight crumb.Does anyone have a baker's percentage for using both sourdough and instant yeast in a recipe?Ideally I'd love to have this loaf naturally leavened, but not to the point where the sourdough changes the flavor of the bread. I suspect 20% levain was too high for this goal. Could I reduce the percentage of my levain, and add just a little bit of instant yeast to help boost fermentation? Does anybody have a recommended bakers percentage for this?Recipe is below in case that helps. Thank you! Flour - 100%Water - 37.5%Milk - 29.38%Olive oil - 9.38%Salt - 2.25%Yeast - 0.13% /nai: "Slightly sweet" - this is "Slightly sweet" - this is why I still use commercial yeast - some things just don't benefit from a sour/tangy dough. And this may be your biggest hurdle. Can you add some regular yeast, sure can. But then you wouldn't consider it 100% naturally leavened (I do this often, especially to make things fit a schedule). Texture is easy enough - add a little butter or olive oil and punch it down like a white bread loaf. I've added sugar to try to offset the tang - experimenting with sd pizza dough years ago and things just weren't right. Keep watching - I'm sure there'll be ideas and suggestions coming.

/nhuman: Issues with getting a loaf right (suspicion: acidic starter) I hope I can find a master baker here, who can help me / verify that the most likely source of my issue is the starter / point me in a different direction re/ this problem :) So, new to sourdough baking, I churned out quite a few loafs, but none of them were really successful. Typical Experience: What I often experience is what seems to me both signs of underproofing and overproofing at the same time! E.g. the loaf comes out with the large air tunnels that are supposed to be typical for underproofing, together with the characteristically dense bottom of the crumb. However at the same time there are signs of overproofing, especially re/ the gluten structure.What I mean is a) by the time the bulk fermentation is over, the dough is very, very soggy and very, very sticky, like octopus tentacles (as I read it elsewhere) clutching everything. This is with having done either Rubaud method+3 stretch&fold, or 6 stretch&fold for high hydration doughs and just kneading until the window pane test comes out fine (between 8-12min) and rest during the bulk fermentation earlier, so the gluten structure development had been done.The dough literally sticks to the wetted work surface and don't hold any shape during pre-shaping and shaping. It literally doesn't let itself be taut, turned, lifted, etc... If it lands by some miracle in the banneton, after retarding and fridge proofing, there is no rise in the oven at all (overproofing sign).The loaf sticks extremely to the banneton, although ample rice flour was applied. When turning the banneton over on top of the baking sheet, the dough sticks to the basket like long strands of chewing gum. It also plops onto the surface, spreading out like a pancake, rather than keeping it's taut shape. The next issue is that the loaf comes out of the dutch oven without any features at all. The ripples from the banneton don't contribute to the surface structure of the loaf, neither does scoring! All surface features again are being washed out in the oven. All these to me would be more typical "overproofing" signs. Overproofing signs typically all relate to losing the gluten structure though, so my hunch is that the gluten structure is lost for different reasons. Hence: acidity? Too many lactobacilli? Edit: starterstarter is about 4 weeks old, is fed with a 50/50 mix of organic whole wheat and a kind of white flour (most often white bread flour). Feeding first happened once every 24 hours and since a few days feeding is done when the starter is in the beginning of shrinking. i keep it at 100% hydration and feed it in a 1:3:3 ratio since two weeks now. It rises and falls predictably. In the second week, it still wasn’t going strongly, I then added half a teaspoon of organic probiotic yogurt into the mix for a few days in a row. RecipesI used a bunch of different recipes. Generally there typically is a 4 hour bulk fermentation duration time, pre-shaping, shaping, bench rest for low-percentage starter amounts (15%, 17%), fridge proofing, baking. Example /nai: Autolyse 16:45Mix at 17:45 with 19% mature levain, 70% all purpose, 12% white bread flour, 18% whole wheat flour, 2% salt, 66% warm water and final dough temperature 28C with a room temp at 21C4.5h bulk fermentation (dough cooled down to 23.6C) 22:30 pre shape, bench rest, 23:05 shape and fridge.Bake next morning: Example B:Followed this recipe precisely, including timing and temperature and flour type: https://www.theperfectloaf.com/a-return-to-basics/The crumb isn't great, no oven spring at all, it almost fell apart when it came to shaping Example C:Kitchen temp: 23CAutolyse 06:45 of 400ml water (80%) and 500g all purposeMix in 07:55 80g levain (16%) 12g starter whole wheat, 34g whole wheat, 34g water. 2% salt. Rhudart method 4minStretch and folds:08:15 8 times 08:45 stretch and fold 8 times 09:15 stretch and fold 4 times09:44 stretch and fold 4 times added salt (forgot earlier)10:15 stretch and fold 4 times11:15 lamination12:00 pre shape and shape12:30 fridgecomes out like a freaking pan cake: Example D (quarter size):This is probably as good as it can get with my starter, I controlled everything I could. And the result is "not bad", but still it was a bitch to work with, and octopus tentacle sticky flat pancake, at only a hydration level of 65%! Autolyse 06:30 100% BF (bread flour 14% protein) 63% water at 29.5C dough temperature (warm water 32.5C)07:30 mix in mature levain (100% hydration, equal mix of whole wheat and bread flour) and 2% saltkneading for 13 minutes until it easily passes window pane testmixing glas bowl immersed in sous-vide controlled water bath with dough temperature kept at constant 26.5CPre-shaping and shaping at 11:45 and 12:15 and final proof in the fridge. shaping is a horrible sticky experience!Comes out with an alright crumb, but overall again no oven spring after baking in the dutch oven. All bakes were in an oven at 260C and reduced to 245C after 20 minutes. Is it the starter?The question after a good dozen of loafs, to no success (unless I use commercial yeast instead of sourdough starter), is it the starter? What can I do to rescue the starter? Should I start with a new starter? Please help, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you are our only hope :) /nai: Florian, I’ve never had that Florian, I’ve never had that particular problem. It is called a “flying roof”.Click THIS LINK for a host of information.Danny